唐纳德·特朗普访谈

I don’t know if you know this, but some people call you a fascist.

我不知道你是否知道这一点，有些人称你为法西斯分子。

Yeah, they do.

是的，他们确实这么做了。

00:03 So I figure it’s all right to call them a communist.

所以我认为称他们为共产主义者是可以的。

Yeah, they call me a lot worse than I call them.

是的，他们对我的称呼比我对他们的称呼要糟糕得多。

A lot of people listening to this, myself included, that doesn’t think that Kamala is a communist.

很多人听到这个，包括我自己，并不认为卡马拉是共产主义者。

I believe you have to fight fire with fire.

我相信你必须以毒攻毒。

Politics is a dirty game.

政治是一场肮脏的游戏。

It is a dirty game.

这是一场肮脏的游戏。

00:19 That’s certainly true.

这当然是真的。

How do you win at that game?

你如何在这场比赛中获胜？

They suffer from massive Trump derangement syndrome, TDS, and I don’t know if it’s curable from their standpoint.

他们患有严重的特朗普精神错乱综合症（TDS），我不知道从他们的角度来看这是否可以治愈。

I think we would probably have a better world if everybody in Congress took some mushrooms perhaps?

我认为如果国会中的每个人都吃一些蘑菇，我们可能会拥有一个更美好的世界？

First of all, medical marijuana has been amazing.

首先，医用大麻令人惊叹。

00:41 I’ve had friends and I’ve had others and doctors telling me that it’s been absolutely amazing.

我的朋友、其他人和医生都告诉我，这绝对是令人惊奇的。

The list of clients that went to the island has not been made public.

前往该岛的客户名单尚未公开。

Yeah, it’s very interesting, isn’t it?

是的，这很有趣，不是吗？

The following is a conversation with Donald Trump on this, the Lex Fridman Podcast.

以下是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客与唐纳德·特朗普就此问题的对话。

They’re getting smaller and smaller.

它们变得越来越小。

They’re getting smaller.

它们变得越来越小。

Right?

正确的？

People do respect you more when you have a big camera for some reason.

当你出于某种原因拥有一台大相机时，人们确实会更尊重你。

No, it’s cool.

不，这很酷。

01:15 And about 20 guys that you pay a fortune to.

还有大约20个你付了一大笔钱的人。

Right?

正确的？

All right.

好的。

01:18 Okay.

好的。

You said that you love winning.

你说过你喜欢胜利。

And you have won a lot in life, in real estate, in business, in TV and politics.

你在生活、房地产、商业、电视和政治中赢得了很多。

So let me start with a mindset, a psychology question.

让我从一个心态、一个心理学问题开始。

What drives you more, the love of winning or the hate of losing?

是对胜利的热爱还是对失败的厌恶，什么更能激励你？

Maybe equally, maybe both.

也许同等，也许两者兼而有之。

01:41 I don’t like losing and I do like winning.

我不喜欢失败，我喜欢胜利。

I’ve never thought of it as to which is more of a driving force.

我从来没有想过哪个是更大的推动力。

You’ve been close with a lot of the greats in sport.

您与许多体育界的伟人关系密切。

01:51 You think about Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali, you have people like Michael Jordan, who I think hate losing more than anybody.

你想想泰格·伍兹、穆罕默德·阿里，还有像迈克尔·乔丹这样的人，我认为他们比任何人都更讨厌失败。

So what do you learn from those guys?

那么你从这些人身上学到了什么？

Well, they do have something different.

嗯，他们确实有一些不同的东西。

02:06 The great champions have something very different, the sports champions.

伟大的冠军有一些非常不同的东西，那就是体育冠军。

And you have champions in other fields, but you see it more readily in sports.

在其他领域也有冠军，但在体育领域更容易看到冠军。

You see it over a weekend or you see it during a game.

您可以在周末或比赛期间看到它。

And you see that certain people stand out and they keep standing out.

你会看到某些人脱颖而出，而且他们一直脱颖而出。

But it’s there for you, it doesn’t take a lifetime to find out that somebody was a winner or a loser.

但它就在那里，你不需要花一辈子的时间就能发现某人是赢家还是输家。

And so the sports thing is very interesting.

所以体育运动是非常有趣的。

But I play golf with different people and there’s a different mindset among champions.

但我和不同的人一起打高尔夫球，冠军之间也有不同的心态。

There’s really a very different mindset.

确实有一种非常不同的心态。

There’s a different thought process.

有一个不同的思维过程。

02:50 Talent wise, sometimes you can’t tell the difference in talent.

就天赋而言，有时你无法区分天赋的差异。

But at the end of a weekend, they seem to win and it’s very interesting.

但在周末结束时，他们似乎赢了，这非常有趣。

As an example, Tiger or Jack Nicklaus, he was a phenomenal winner and he does have a different way about him and Tiger has a different way about him and Michael Jordan.

举个例子，老虎或杰克·尼克劳斯，他是一位非凡的胜利者，他确实有不同的方式，而老虎对他和迈克尔·乔丹也有不同的方式。

There’s never one, you would think that there’d be one way.

从来没有一种方法，你会认为只有一种方法。

Arnold Palmer was the nicest guy you’d ever meet.

阿诺德·帕尔默是你见过的最好的人。

And then you have some champions that aren’t really nice, they’re just focused on doing their job.

然后你会看到一些不太好的英雄，他们只是专注于做好自己的工作。

So there’s not one type of person.

所以不存在一种类型的人。

But the one thing I would say that everybody seems to have in common is they’re very driven.

但我想说的是，每个人似乎都有一个共同点，那就是他们都非常有动力。

They’re driven beyond.

他们被超越了。

They don’t seem to give up easily.

他们似乎不会轻易放弃。

They don’t give up.

他们不会放弃。

03:41 They don’t give up, but they do seem to be, they have a passion that’s maybe more than people that don’t do as well.

他们不会放弃，但他们似乎确实如此，他们的热情可能比那些不放弃的人更多。

You’ve said that politics is a dirty game-

你说过政治是肮脏的游戏——

Yeah.

是的。

…

…

03:54 in the past.

在过去。

It is a dirty game.

这是一场肮脏的游戏。

03:56 That’s certainly true.

这当然是真的。

So if it is a game, how do you win at that game?

那么如果这是一场游戏，你如何在这场比赛中获胜呢？

Well, you win at that game by getting the word out and by using sense.

好吧，你通过说出来并运用理智来赢得这场游戏。

04:02 You have to have a feeling where it’s going.

你必须有一种感觉。

You also have to have a feeling of what’s right.

你还必须有一种什么是正确的感觉。

You can’t necessarily just go what’s popular, you have to do what’s good for a country if you’re talking about countries.

你不一定要做流行的事，如果你谈论的是国家，你必须做对一个国家有利的事情。

But you have to get the word out and you have to just continuously, like for instance, you have a great show, you have a great podcast, it’s very well watched.

但你必须不断地宣传，比如，你有一个很棒的节目，你有一个很棒的播客，它的收视率很高。

And I’m sitting here and I do this, a lot of people see it and I do other things and a lot of people see that.

我坐在这里，我做这件事，很多人都看到了，我做其他事情，很多人都看到了。

And I go traditional also, you have traditional television, which is getting a little bit older and maybe less significant, could be less significant, I don’t know.

我也很传统，传统的电视已经有点老了，也许不那么重要了，可能不那么重要了，我不知道。

But it’s changing a lot.

但它正在发生很大变化。

04:48 The whole plane of platform is changing a lot.

平台的整个平面正在发生很大的变化。

It’s changed a lot in the last two, three years.

近两三年发生了很大变化。

But from a political standpoint, you have to find out what people are doing, what they’re watching and you have to get on.

但从政治角度来看，你必须了解人们在做什么、在看什么，然后你就必须继续前进。

I just see that these platforms are starting to dominate, they’re getting very big numbers.

我只是看到这些平台开始占据主导地位，它们的数量非常大。

I did Spaces with Elon and they got numbers like nobody’s ever heard before.

我和埃隆一起做了《Spaces》，他们得到了前所未有的数字。

So you wouldn’t do that on radio, you wouldn’t do those numbers, no matter how good a show, you wouldn’t do those numbers on radio, you wouldn’t do on television.

所以你不会在广播中这样做，你不会做那些数字，无论节目有多好，你都不会在广播上做这些数字，你不会在电视上做这些数字。

You’ve been successful in business, you’ve been successful in politics.

你在商业上取得了成功，在政治上也取得了成功。

05:28 What do you think is the difference between gaining success between the two different disparate worlds?

您认为在两个不同的世界之间获得成功有什么区别？

Yeah, and they’re different, very different.

是的，它们是不同的，非常不同。

05:37 I have a lot of people that are in business that are successful and they’d like to go over to politics and then you realize they can’t speak, they choke.

我有很多在商界取得成功的人，他们想从政，然后你意识到他们不能说话，他们窒息了。

It’s hard to make a speech in front of, let’s say you’re talking about a big audience, but I get very big audiences.

在一大群观众面前发表演讲是很困难的，但我有很多观众。

And for many people it’s virtually impossible to get up and speak for an hour and a half and have nobody leave.

对于许多人来说，站起来讲话一个半小时而没有人离开几乎是不可能的。

It’s not an easy thing to do.

这不是一件容易的事。

And it’s an ability.

这是一种能力。

But I have many people that are very, very successful in business, would love to do what I did.

但我有很多在商业上非常非常成功的人愿意做我所做的事情。

And yet, they can’t pull the trigger.

然而，他们却无法扣动扳机。

And in many cases, I don’t think it would work.

在很多情况下，我认为这不会起作用。

Almost for everybody, it’s not going to work.

几乎对每个人来说，这都是行不通的。

It’s a very tough thing to do.

这是一件非常困难的事情。

It’s a big transition.

这是一个很大的转变。

06:35 Now, if you talked about people in the business and politics going into business, likewise, that wouldn’t generally work out so well either.

现在，如果你谈论商界人士和政界人士进入商界，同样，这通常也不会那么顺利。

It’s different talents, it’s different.

天赋不同，天赋也不同。

I have somebody that wants to go into politics so bad, but he’s got a little problem, he’s got stage fright.

我有一个人非常想从政，但他有一个小问题，他怯场。

Now, he’s a total killer, but if he gets up onto a stage in front of people, he doesn’t do well, to put it mildly actually.

现在，他是一个彻头彻尾的杀手，但如果他登上舞台，在人们面前，说得客气一点，他表现得并不好。

He does badly.

他做得很糟糕。

So you have to be able to make hard decisions like you do in business, but also be able to captivate an audience.

因此，你必须能够像在商业中那样做出艰难的决定，而且还要能够吸引观众。

Look, if you’re a politician, you have to be able to speak in front of large crowds.

听着，如果你是一名政治家，你必须能够在一大群人面前讲话。

07:09 There are a lot of people who can’t do that.

有很多人做不到这一点。

I’ve seen it.

我见过。

They can’t even think about doing it and they don’t.

他们甚至无法考虑这样做，但他们没有这样做。

There are many people in business right now, I could name them, but I don’t want to embarrass anybody, they’ve been talking about running for president for 15 years.

现在有很多商界人士，我可以说出他们的名字，但我不想让任何人难堪，他们已经谈论竞选总统15年了。

And they’re very big in business, very well known actually, but it takes guts to run.

他们的生意很大，名气很大，但经营起来需要勇气。

For president, I can tell you it takes guts to run.

对于总统，我可以告诉你，竞选需要勇气。

It’s also a very dangerous profession if you want to know the truth, but dangerous in a different sense too.

如果你想知道真相，这也是一个非常危险的职业，但在不同的意义上也是危险的。

But it takes a lot of courage to run for president.

但竞选总统需要很大的勇气。

It’s not easy.

这并不容易。

But you have and you know the same people as I do, there are a lot of people that would like to run for president that are very, very successful in business, but they don’t have the guts to do it and they have to give up a lot.

但你也认识和我一样的人，有很多人想竞选总统，他们在商业上非常非常成功，但他们没有勇气去做，不得不放弃很多。

One of the great things about people from the business world is they’re often great deal makers and you’re a great deal maker and you’ve talked about the war in Ukraine and that you would be able to find a deal that both Putin and Zelenskyy would accept.

商界人士的一大优点是，他们往往是伟大的交易撮合者，而你也是一个伟大的交易撮合者，你谈论了乌克兰战争，你将能够找到普京和泽伦斯基都接受的交易。

08:05 What do you think that deal looks like?

您认为这笔交易是什么样的？

I think the deal and I wouldn’t talk about it too much because I think I can make a deal if I win as president-elect, I’ll have a deal made guaranteed.

我认为这笔交易我不会过多谈论它，因为我认为如果我作为当选总统获胜，我可以达成协议，我将保证达成协议。

08:24 That’s a war that shouldn’t have happened.

这是一场不应该发生的战争。

It’s terrible.

太可怕了。

Look, Biden is the worst president in the history of our country and she’s probably worse than him.

看，拜登是我们国家历史上最糟糕的总统，她可能比他更糟糕。

That’s something that should have never happened, but it did happen.

这是不应该发生的事情，但它确实发生了。

And now it’s a much tougher deal to make than it would’ve been before it started.

现在，这笔交易比开始之前要困难得多。

Millions of people, I think the number’s going to be a lot higher when you see this all at some point to iron out, I think the numbers are going to be, the death numbers are going to be a lot higher than people think.

数百万人，我认为当你看到这一切在某个时候得到解决时，这个数字将会高得多，我认为死亡人数将会比人们想象的要高得多。

When you take a look at the destruction and the buildings coming down all over the place in Ukraine, I think those numbers are going to be a lot higher.

当你看看乌克兰各地的破坏和建筑物倒塌时，我认为这些数字会高得多。

09:12 They lie about the numbers.

他们在数字上撒谎。

They try and keep them low.

他们试图保持低调。

They knock down a building that’s two blocks long, these are big buildings and they say one person was mildly injured.

他们推倒了一栋两个街区长的建筑物，这些都是大建筑物，他们说有一个人受了轻伤。

No, no, a lot of people were killed.

不不不，很多人都被杀了。

And there are people in those buildings and they have no chance.

那些建筑物里有人，他们没有机会。

Once they start coming down, there’s no chance.

一旦他们开始下降，就没有机会了。

So that’s a war that absolutely has to get done.

所以这是一场绝对必须完成的战争。

And then you have Israel and then you have a lot of other places that are talking war.

然后是以色列，还有很多其他地方正在谈论战争。

The world is a rough place right now and a lot of it’s because of the fact that America has no leadership.

现在的世界很艰难，很大程度上是因为美国没有领导力。

And I believe that she’ll be probably worse than Biden.

我相信她可能会比拜登更糟糕。

I watched the interview the other night, it was just a softball interview.

前几天晚上我看了采访，那只是一场垒球采访。

So you would like to see her do more interviews, challenged more.

所以你希望看到她接受更多采访，接受更多挑战。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

10:03 I can’t believe the whole thing is happening.

我不敢相信这一切正在发生。

We had a man in there that should have never been in there.

我们那里有一个不应该在那里的人。

They kept him in a basement.

他们把他关在地下室里。

They used COVID.

他们使用了新冠病毒。

They cheated, but they used COVID to cheat.

他们作弊了，但他们利用新冠病毒来作弊。

Then they cheated without COVID too.

然后他们在没有新冠病毒的情况下也作弊了。

But you had somebody in there and now we have a woman that is not, she couldn’t do an interview.

但你那里有人，而现在我们有一个女人，她不能接受采访。

This was a really soft interview.

这是一次非常温和的采访。

This is an interview where they’re giving her multiple choice questions, multiple guess, I call it multiple guess.

这是一次采访，他们给了她多项选择题、多项猜测，我称之为多项猜测。

And I don’t think she did well.

而且我不认为她做得很好。

I think she did very poorly.

我认为她做得很差。

How do you think you’ll do in the debate coming up, that’s in a few days?

您认为您在几天后即将举行的辩论中会表现如何？

So I’ve done a lot of debating, only as a politician.

所以我只是作为一名政治家进行了很多辩论。

10:39 I never debated.

我从来没有争论过。

My first debate was the Rosie O’Donnell debate, the famous Rosie O’Donnell debate, the answer.

我的第一场辩论是罗西·奥唐纳辩论，著名的罗西·奥唐纳辩论，答案。

But I’ve done well with debates.

但我在辩论方面表现得很好。

I became president.

我当上了总统。

Then the second time, I got millions more votes than I got the first time.

然后第二次，我得到的选票比第一次多了数百万票。

I was told if I got 63 million, which is what I got the first time, you would win, you can’t not when.

有人告诉我，如果我得到了 6300 万，这是我第一次得到的，你就会赢，你不能不赢。

And I got millions of more votes on that and lost by a whisker.

我因此获得了数百万张选票，却以微弱优势落败。

And look what happened to the world with all of the wars and all of the problems.

看看世界上发生了什么，所有的战争和所有的问题。

And look what happened with inflation because inflation is just eating up our country, eating it up.

看看通货膨胀发生了什么，因为通货膨胀正在吞噬我们的国家，吞噬它。

So it’s too bad.

所以这太糟糕了。

But there are a lot of things that could happen.

但有很多事情可能发生。

We have to get those wars settled.

我们必须解决这些战争。

I’ll tell you, you have to get Ukraine done.

我告诉你，你必须解决乌克兰问题。

That could end up in a third world war.

这可能最终导致第三次世界大战。

So could the Middle East.

中东也可以。

So could the Middle East.

中东也可以。

So maybe let’s talk about what it takes to negotiate with somebody like Putin or Zelenskyy.

所以也许我们可以谈谈如何与普京或泽伦斯基这样的人进行谈判。

11:39 Do you think Putin would be willing to give up any of the regions that are already captured?

您认为普京愿意放弃任何已经占领的地区吗？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

11:49 I can tell you that all of this would’ve never happened and it would’ve been very easy because you don’t have, that question wouldn’t be asked.

我可以告诉你，这一切都不会发生，而且会很容易，因为你没有，就不会问这个问题。

That’s a tougher question.

这是一个更棘手的问题。

Once that starts happening because he has taken over a lot of territory, now I guess they’re insurgents now too.

一旦这种情况开始发生，因为他已经占领了很多领土，现在我想他们现在也是叛乱分子了。

Right?

正确的？

So it’s a little bit interesting that that’s happening and that it can happen.

因此，这种情况正在发生并且可能发生，这有点有趣。

And it’s interesting that Putin has allowed that to happen.

有趣的是，普京允许这种情况发生。

Look, that’s one that should have never started.

看，这是一个根本不应该开始的事情。

We have to get it stopped.

我们必须阻止它。

Ukraine is being demolished.

乌克兰正在被摧毁。

They’re destroying a great culture that’s largely destroyed.

他们正在摧毁一种已基本被摧毁的伟大文化。

What do you think works better in those kinds of negotiations?

您认为在此类谈判中什么效果更好？

12:32 Leverage of let’s say friendship, the carrot or the stick, friendship or sort of the threat of using the economic and military power?

比如说友谊的杠杆作用，胡萝卜还是大棒，友谊还是使用经济和军事力量的威胁？

So it depends on who the person is.

所以这取决于这个人是谁。

12:46 Everyone’s different.

每个人都不同。

Negotiation is interesting because it depends on who the person is.

谈判很有趣，因为这取决于这个人是谁。

And then you have to guess or know through certain knowledge, which is more important, the carrot or the stick.

然后你必须通过某些知识来猜测或了解，胡萝卜或大棒哪个更重要。

And with some people, it’s the stick.

对于某些人来说，这就是棍子。

And with some people, it’s the carrot.

对于某些人来说，这是胡萝卜。

I think the stick probably is generally more successful in that we’re talking about war.

我认为，当我们谈论战争时，棍子通常会更成功。

But the kind of destruction that we’re witnessing now, nobody’s ever seen.

但我们现在目睹的这种破坏是前所未见的。

It’s a terrible thing.

这是一件可怕的事情。

And we’re witnessing it all over.

我们正在见证这一切。

We’re witnessing it in all parts of the world and a lot of things are going to get started.

我们正在世界各地见证这一点，很多事情即将开始。

Look what’s going on with China.

看看中国发生了什么。

Look at Japan, they’re starting to rearm now.

看看日本，他们现在开始重新武装了。

They’re starting to rearm because China’s taken over certain islands and there’s a lot of danger in the war right now, in the world.

他们开始重新武装，因为中国占领了某些岛屿，而且现在世界上的战争存在很多危险。

13:46 And there’s a great possibility of World War III and we better get this thing done fast because five months with people like her and him, he’s checked out, he just goes to the beach and thinks he looks good in a bathing suit, which he doesn’t, he’s sort of checked out.

第三次世界大战的可能性很大，我们最好快点完成这件事，因为和她和他这样的人在一起五个月了，他已经退房了，他只是去海滩，觉得自己穿泳衣很好看，但他不这么认为，他有点已经退房了。

Hey look, you can’t blame him.

嘿，听着，你不能责怪他。

That was a coup, they took it over.

那是一场政变，他们接管了。

They took over the presidential deal.

他们接管了总统协议。

The whole presidential thing was taken over in a coup.

整个总统事务都在一场政变中被接管了。

He had 14 million votes.

他有1400万张选票。

He had no votes, not one.

他没有选票，连一张都没有。

And nobody thought it was going to be her.

没有人想到会是她。

Nobody wanted it to be her.

没有人希望是她。

She was a joke until six weeks ago when they said we’re going to have to, politically, they felt they had to pick her.

她一直是个笑话，直到六周前他们说我们必须这样做，从政治上来说，他们觉得必须选择她。

And if they didn’t pick her, they thought there would be a problem.

如果他们不选她，他们就会认为会有问题。

I don’t know if that’s right or not.

我不知道这是否正确。

I actually don’t think it’s right, but they thought it was right.

我其实不认为这是对的，但他们认为这是对的。

And now, immediately the press comes to their aid.

现在，媒体立即向他们伸出援手。

If we can go back to China, on negotiation, how do we avoid war with China in the 21st century?

如果我们能回到中国进行谈判，我们如何避免在21世纪与中国发生战争？

Well, there are ways.

嗯，方法是有的。

14:56 Now here’s the problem.

现在问题来了。

If I tell you how and I’d love to do it, but if I give you a plan, I have a very exacting plan how to stop Ukraine and Russia.

如果我告诉你如何做，我很乐意这样做，但如果我给你一个计划，我有一个非常严格的计划如何阻止乌克兰和俄罗斯。

And I have a certain idea, maybe not a plan, but an idea for China.

我有一个想法，也许不是一个计划，而是一个针对中国的想法。

Because we do, we’re in a lot of trouble.

因为我们这样做，所以我们遇到了很多麻烦。

They’ll be in a lot of trouble too, but we’re in a lot of trouble.

他们也会遇到很多麻烦，但我们也会遇到很多麻烦。

But I can’t give you those plans because if I give you those plans, I’m not going to be able to use them, they’ll be very unsuccessful.

但我不能给你那些计划，因为如果我给你那些计划，我将无法使用它们，它们会非常不成功。

Part of it is surprise, right?

部分原因是惊讶，对吧？

Right.

正确的。

But they won’t be able to help us much.

但他们帮不了我们太多。

So you have a plan of what to say to Putin when you take office?

那么您有计划在就职后对普京说些什么吗？

Yeah, I know [inaudible 00:15:40].

是的，我知道 [听不清 00:15:40]。

15:39 No, I had a very good relationship with him and I had a good relationship with Zelenskyy too, but had a very good relationship with Putin.

不，我和他的关系很好，我和泽伦斯基的关系也很好，但和普京的关系也很好。

Tough topic, but important.

棘手的话题，但很重要。

15:47 You said lost by whisker.

你说，一失足成千古恨。

I’m an Independent, I have a lot of friends who are Independent, many of whom like your policies, like the fact that you’re a dealmaker, like the fact that you can end wars, but they are troubled by what happened in the 2020 election and statements about widespread fraud and this kind of stuff, fake election scheme.

我是一名独立人士，我有很多独立人士朋友，他们中的许多人喜欢你的政策，喜欢你是交易撮合者，喜欢你可以结束战争，但他们对 2020 年选举中发生的事情以及有关广泛欺诈和此类虚假选举计划的声明感到困扰。

What can you say to those Independent voters to help them decide who to vote for?

您能对那些独立选民说些什么来帮助他们决定投票给谁？

Right.

正确的。

16:24 I think the fraud was on the other side.

我认为欺诈是在另一边。

I think the election was a fraud.

我认为这次选举是一场舞弊。

And many people felt it was that and they wanted answers.

许多人都这么认为，他们想要答案。

And when you can’t challenge an election, you have to be able to challenge it, otherwise it’s going to get worse, not better.

当你无法挑战选举时，你必须能够挑战它，否则情况会变得更糟，而不是更好。

And there are lots of ways to solve this problem.

并且有很多方法可以解决这个问题。

Go to paper ballots.

转到纸质选票。

Do it easy way, I mean the paper ballots and you have voter ID and you have same day voting and you have proof of citizenship, which is very important because we have people voting that are not citizens.

简单点，我的意思是纸质选票，你有选民身份证，你有当天投票，你有公民身份证明，这非常重要，因为我们有非公民投票。

They just came in and they’re loading up the…

他们刚刚进来，正在装载……

17:00 They just came in and they’re loading up the payrolls, they’re loading up everything.

他们刚刚进来，他们正在加载工资单，他们正在加载所有东西。

They’re putting students in schools.

他们把学生送进学校。

They don’t speak a word of English, and they’re taking the seats of people that are citizens of our country.

他们不会说一句英语，但他们却占据了我们国家公民的席位。

So look, we have the worst border in the history of the world.

所以看，我们有世界历史上最糟糕的边界。

We have coming into our country right now, millions and millions of people at levels that nobody’s ever seen.

我们现在已经进入我们的国家，数以百万计的人达到了前所未有的水平。

I don’t believe any country’s ever seen it.

我相信没有哪个国家见过它。

And they would use sticks and stones not to make it happen, not to let it happen.

他们会用棍棒和石头来阻止它发生，不让它发生。

We don’t do anything.

我们什么也不做。

And we have a person who was the border czar, who now said she wasn’t really the border czar, but she was, she was the border czar, but she was in charge of the border.

我们有一个人是边境沙皇，她现在说她不是真正的边境沙皇，但她是，她是边境沙皇，但她负责边境。

And we have her and she’s saying very strongly, “Oh, I did such a good job.” She was horrible, horrible.

我们有她，她非常强烈地说，“哦，我做得很好。”她太可怕了，太可怕了。

The harm she’s done…

她所造成的伤害……

17:56 But we have people coming in from other countries all over the world, not just South America, and they’re coming in from prisons and jails.

但我们有来自世界各地其他国家的人，而不仅仅是南美，他们来自监狱和看守所。

They’re coming in from mental institutions and insane asylums and they’re street criminals right off the street.

他们来自精神病院和疯人院，他们是街上的街头罪犯。

They take them and they’re being given to our country, drug dealers, human traffickers.

他们拿走它们，然后将它们送给我们的国家、毒贩、人口贩子。

We’re destroying our country.

我们正在摧毁我们的国家。

This is a sin what’s been allowed to take place over the last four years.

这是过去四年来允许发生的罪恶。

We’re our country.

我们是我们的国家。

And we’ll see how that all works out, but it’s not even believable.

我们将会看到这一切如何进行，但这甚至令人难以置信。

And now you see, you saw in Aurora, Colorado, a group of very tough young thugs from Venezuela taking over big areas including buildings.

现在你看，你看到在科罗拉多州的奥罗拉，一群来自委内瑞拉的非常强悍的年轻暴徒占领了包括建筑物在内的大片地区。

They’re taking over buildings.

他们正在占领建筑物。

They have their big rifles, but they’re taking over buildings.

他们拥有大型步枪，但他们正在占领建筑物。

18:52 We’re not going to let this happen.

我们不会让这种事发生。

We’re not going to let them destroy a country.

我们不会让他们摧毁一个国家。

And in those countries,, crime is way down, they’re taking them out of their prisons, which is good because good for them.

在这些国家，犯罪率大幅下降，他们将罪犯带出监狱，这对他们来说是件好事。

I do the same thing.

我也做同样的事情。

By the way, if I ran one of those countries, any country in the world, I would make sure that America has every one of our prisoners, every one of our criminals would be here.

顺便说一句，如果我管理其中一个国家，世界上任何一个国家，我都会确保美国拥有我们的每一位囚犯，我们的每一位罪犯都会在这里。

I can’t believe they’re going so slowly, but some are.

我不敢相信他们进展得这么慢，但有些确实如此。

But they all are doing it and we can’t let that happen.

但他们都在这样做，我们不能让这种情况发生。

They’re emptying out their prisons and their mental institutions into the United States of America.

他们正在将监狱和精神病院清空到美利坚合众国。

We can’t let that happen.

我们不能让这种事发生。

So a lot of people believe that there was some shady stuff that went on with the election, whether it’s media bias or big tech, but still the claim of widespread fraud is the thing that bothers people.

因此，很多人认为选举中存在一些不正当的事情，无论是媒体偏见还是大型科技公司，但普遍存在欺诈行为的说法仍然困扰着人们。

Well, I don’t focus on the past.

好吧，我不关注过去。

19:42 I focus on the future.

我专注于未来。

I mean, I talk about how bad the economy is, how bad inflation is now, bad things like…

我的意思是，我谈论经济有多糟糕，现在的通货膨胀有多糟糕，诸如此类的坏事。

Which is important.

这很重要。

Afghanistan was, in my opinion, the most embarrassing thing that’s ever happened to our country.

在我看来，阿富汗是我们国家发生过的最尴尬的事情。

And because of that, I think Putin went in when he said how stupid we were.

正因为如此，我认为普京在说我们多么愚蠢时就插话了。

Putin went in, but it was the most embarrassing moment in the history of our country.

普京进去了，但这却是我国历史上最尴尬的时刻。

I really believe that.

我真的相信这一点。

But we left 13 dead soldiers, think of it, 13 dead soldiers, many soldiers horrifically hurt, with arms and legs and everything else gone.

但我们留下了13名死去的士兵，想想看，13名死去的士兵，许多士兵受了重伤，胳膊、腿和其他一切都消失了。

We left hostages behind.

我们留下了人质。

We left Americans behind.

我们把美国人抛在了后面。

We left military equipment, the likes of which nobody’s ever left behind before.

我们留下了以前从未有人留下过的军事装备。

Billions and billions of dollars of equipment.

数十亿美元的设备。

They’re now selling the equipment.

他们现在正在出售设备。

They’re one of the largest arms dealers in the world.

他们是世界上最大的军火商之一。

20:45 And very sad, very sad.

而且非常难过，非常难过。

And we were there for a long time.

我们在那里待了很长时间。

I was going to get out.

我正要出去。

We were getting ready to get out.

我们正准备出去。

Then we got interrupted by the election, but we would’ve been out with dignity and strength.

然后我们被选举打断了，但我们本来可以带着尊严和力量退出。

We were having very little problem with the Taliban when I was there, because they knew it was going to be tough.

当我在那里时，我们与塔利班几乎没有什么问题，因为他们知道这会很艰难。

I dealt with Abdul.

我和阿卜杜勒打过交道。

Abdul was the leader, and we got along fine.

阿卜杜勒是领导者，我们相处得很好。

He understood, but they were shooting, they were killing a lot of our people before I came down.

他明白，但他们在开枪，在我下来之前他们已经杀了我们很多人。

And when I got there, I spoke to him, I said, “You can’t do it.

当我到达那里时，我对他说：“你做不到。

Don’t do it anymore.” We went 18 months before this happened, this horrible day happened.

别再这样做了。”我们在这件事发生前 18 个月去了，这可怕的一天发生了。

We went 18 months and nobody was shot at or killed.

我们走了 18 个月，没有人被枪杀或被杀。

What do you think that was?

你认为那是什么？

21:33 The carrot or the stick, in that case, in Afghanistan?

那么，在阿富汗，胡萝卜还是大棒？

The stick, definitely the stick.

棍子，绝对是棍子。

So the threat of military force.

所以军事力量的威胁。

That was the stick, yeah.

那就是那根棍子，是的。

21:40 It doesn’t have to be, but that was the stick.

不一定是这样，但那是棍子。

Well, let me just linger on the election a little bit more.

好吧，让我再稍微谈一下选举。

21:44 For this election, it might be a close one.

对于这次选举来说，这可能是一场势均力敌的选举。

What can we do to avoid the insanity and division of the previous election, whether you win or lose?

无论你赢还是输，我们能做些什么来避免上次选举的疯狂和分裂？

Well, I hope it’s not a close one.

好吧，我希望这不是一场亲密的比赛。

21:58 I mean, I don’t know how people can vote for somebody that has destroyed our country, the inflation, the bad economy.

我的意思是，我不知道人们如何投票给那些摧毁了我们国家、通货膨胀和糟糕经济的人。

But to me, in a way, the worst is what they’ve allowed to happen at our border where they’ve allowed millions of people to come and hear from places that you don’t want to know about.

但对我来说，在某种程度上，最糟糕的是他们允许在我们的边境发生的事情，他们允许数百万人来到你不想知道的地方听到消息。

And I can’t believe that there’s going to be a close election.

我不敢相信将会有一场势均力敌的选举。

We’re leading in the polls and it looks close, but I think in the end it’s not going to be a close election.

我们在民意调查中领先，看起来很接近，但我认为最终这不会是一场势均力敌的选举。

What do you think is the right way to solve the immigration crisis?

您认为解决移民危机的正确途径是什么？

22:29 Is mass deportation one of the solutions you would think about?

大规模驱逐出境是您考虑的解​​决方案之一吗？

Well, you’ve got to get the criminals out of here fast, right?

好吧，你必须尽快把罪犯赶出这里，对吗？

22:35 The people from mental institutions, you got to get them back into their mental institution.

来自精神病院的人，你必须让他们回到精神病院。

No country can afford this.

没有哪个国家能承受得起这个。

It’s just too much money.

钱太多了。

You look at what’s happening in New York and Chicago and LA and lots of places, and you take a look at what’s happening.

你看看纽约、芝加哥、洛杉矶和很多地方正在发生什么，你看看正在发生的事情。

There’s no country can afford this.

没有哪个国家能承担得起这个。

We can’t afford it, and we’ve got to get the bad ones out immediately and the rest have to be worked on.

我们负担不起，我们必须立即把不好的去掉，剩下的就得处理了。

It’s happened before.

以前也发生过这样的事。

Dwight Eisenhower was sort of a moderate president, moderate type person, but he hated when he saw people pouring into the country, and they were nothing like.

德怀特·艾森豪威尔是一位温和的总统，温和型的人，但他讨厌看到人们涌入这个国家，而他们一点也不像。

Now, I probably got elected in 2016, because of the border, and I told people what was happening and they understood it.

现在，我可能在 2016 年当选，因为边界问题，我告诉人们发生了什么，他们也理解。

And I won the election.

我赢得了选举。

23:25 And I won the election, I think because of the border.

我赢得了选举，我想是因为边界。

Our border is 25 times worse right now than it was in 2016.

我们的边境现在比 2016 年糟糕 25 倍。

I had it fixed too.

我也修好了。

I had it the last week of the famous chart that I put up was exactly that, you know the chart.

我上周发布的那张著名图表就是这样的，你知道这张图表。

When I looked to the right, I said, “There’s the chart.” Bing.

当我向右看时，我说：“那是图表。”宾。

That was not a pleasant experience, but the chart that I put up said, and that was done by border patrol.

那不是一次愉快的经历，但我贴出的图表显示，这是由边境巡逻队完成的。

That was the lowest number that we’ve ever had come into our country in recorded history and we have to get it back to that again.

这是有记录以来进入我国的人数最少的一次，我们必须再次恢复到这一水平。

We will.

我们将。

Let me ask you about Project 2025.

让我问你有关“2025 计划”的问题。

24:04 So you’ve publicly said that you don’t have any direct connection to-

所以你公开表示你与-没有任何直接联系

Nothing.

什么也没有。

24:09 I know nothing about it.

我对此一无所知。

And they know that too.

他们也知道这一点。

Democrats know that.

民主党人知道这一点。

And I purposely haven’t read it, because I want to say to you, I have no idea what it’s all about.

我故意没有读它，因为我想对你说，我不知道它在讲什么。

It’s easier, than saying I read it and all of the things.

这比说我读过它和所有的东西要容易得多。

No, I purposely haven’t read it and I’ve heard about it.

不，我故意没有读过它，但我听说过它。

I’ve heard about things that are in there that I don’t like, and there’s some things in there that everybody would like, but there are things that I don’t like at all.

我听说那里有一些我不喜欢的东西，也有一些东西每个人都会喜欢，但也有一些东西我根本不喜欢。

And I think it’s unfortunate that they put it out, but it doesn’t mean anything, because it has nothing to do with me.

我认为他们把它放出来很不幸，但这没有任何意义，因为它与我无关。

Project 25 has absolutely nothing to do with me.

Project 25 与我完全无关。

You posted recently about marijuana and that you are okay with it being legalized, but it has to be done safely.

您最近发布了有关大麻的信息，并且您同意大麻合法化，但必须安全进行。

24:52 Can you explain your policy there?

你能解释一下你那里的政策吗？

Well, I just put out a paper and first of all, medical marijuana has been amazing.

嗯，我刚刚发表了一篇论文，首先，医用大麻非常棒。

25:03 I’ve had friends and I’ve had others and doctors telling me that it’s been absolutely amazing, the medical marijuana.

我的朋友、其他人和医生告诉我，医用大麻绝对是令人惊奇的。

And we put out a statement that we can live with the marijuana.

我们发表了一份声明，表示我们可以接受大麻。

It’s got to be a certain age, got to be a certain age to buy it.

一定要到一定的年龄，一定要到一定的年龄才能买。

It’s got to be done in a very concerted, lawful way.

这必须以非常一致、合法的方式进行。

And the way they’re doing in Florida, I think is going to be actually good.

我认为他们在佛罗里达州所做的事情实际上会很好。

It’s going to be very good, but it’s got to be done in a good way.

这会非常好，但必须以好的方式完成。

It’s got to be done in a clean way.

它必须以干净的方式完成。

You go into some of these places, like in New York, it smells all marijuana.

你走进其中一些地方，比如纽约，闻起来都是大麻的味道。

You’ve got to have a system where there’s control.

你必须有一个可以控制的系统。

And I think the way they’ve done it in Florida is very good.

我认为他们在佛罗里达州的做法非常好。

Do you know anything about psychedelics?

你了解迷幻药吗？

25:59 So I’m not a drug guy, but I recently did Ayahuasca and there’s a lot of people that speak to the health benefits and the spiritual benefits of these different psychedelics.

所以我不是吸毒者，但我最近服用了死藤水，很多人都谈到了这些不同迷幻药的健康益处和精神益处。

I think we would probably have a better world if everybody in Congress took some mushrooms perhaps.

我认为，如果国会中的每个人都吃一些蘑菇，我们可能会拥有一个更美好的世界。

Now I know you don’t.

现在我知道你不知道。

You stay away from all of that stuff.

你远离所有这些东西。

I know also veterans use it for dealing with PTSD and all that kind of stuff.

我知道退伍军人也用它来处理创伤后应激障碍和所有类似的事情。

So it’s great.

所以这很棒。

And it’s interesting that you’re thinking about being more accepting of some of these drugs, which don’t just have a recreational purpose, but a medical purpose, a treatment purpose.

有趣的是，你正在考虑更多地接受其中一些药物，这些药物不仅有娱乐目的，还有医疗目的、治疗目的。

So we put out a statement today, we’re going to put out another one probably next week, be more specific, although I think it’s pretty specific and we’ll see how that all goes.

所以我们今天发布了一份声明，我们可能会在下周发布另一份声明，更加具体，尽管我认为它非常具体，我们会看看一切进展如何。

26:44 That’s a referendum coming up in some states, but it’s coming up and we’ll see how it does.

一些州即将举行公投，但公投即将到来，我们将看看结果如何。

I will say it’s been very hard to beat it.

我会说打败它非常困难。

You take a look at the numbers, it’s been very hard to beat it.

你看一下这些数字，很难打败它。

So I think it’ll generally pass, but you want to do it in a safe way.

所以我认为它通常会过去，但你想以安全的方式做到这一点。

Speaking of marijuana, let me ask you about my good friend, Joe Rogan.

说到大麻，让我问一下我的好朋友乔·罗根。

27:14 So you had a bit of tension with him.

所以你和他的关系有点紧张。

So when he said nice things about RFK Junior, I think you’ve said some not so nice things about Joe, and I think that was a bit unfair.

因此，当他对 RFK Junior 说好话时，我认为你也对 Joe 说了一些不太好的话，我认为这有点不公平。

And as a fan of Joe, I would love to see you do his podcast, because he is legit the greatest conversationalist in the world.

作为乔的粉丝，我很高兴看到你做他的播客，因为他是世界上最伟大的健谈者。

So what’s the story behind the tension?

那么紧张局势背后的故事是什么？

Well, I don’t think there was any tension.

嗯，我不认为有任何紧张。

27:42 And I’ve always liked him, but I don’t know him.

我一直很喜欢他，但我不认识他。

I only see him when I walk into the arena with Dana and I shake his hand.

我只有在和达纳一起走进竞技场并与他握手时才看到他。

I see him there and I think he’s good at what he does, but I don’t know about doing his podcast.

我在那里看到他，我认为他很擅长他所做的事情，但我不知道如何做他的播客。

I guess I’d do it, but I haven’t been asked and I’m not asking them.

我想我会这么做，但没有人问我，我也不会问他们。

I’m not asking anybody.

我不问任何人。

It sounds like a challenging negotiation situation.

这听起来像是一个具有挑战性的谈判情况。

No, it’s not really a negotiation.

不，这并不是真正的谈判。

28:11 And he’s sort of a liberal guy, I guess, from what I understand.

据我了解，我猜他是一个自由主义者。

But he likes Kennedy.

但他喜欢肯尼迪。

This was before I found this out, before Kennedy came in with us.

这是在我发现这一点之前，在肯尼迪和我们一起进来之前。

He’s going to be great.

他会很棒的。

Bobby’s going to be great.

鲍比会很棒的。

But I like that he likes Kennedy.

但我喜欢他喜欢肯尼迪。

I do too.

我也是。

He is a different kind of a guy, but he’s got some great things going.

他是一个与众不同的人，但他也做了一些伟大的事情。

And I think he’s going to be beyond politics.

我认为他将超越政治。

I think he could be quite influential and taking care of some situations that you probably would agree should be taken care of.

我认为他可能很有影响力，并且会处理一些你可能会同意应该处理的情况。

The Joe Rogan post is an example.

乔·罗根的帖子就是一个例子。

28:45 I would love to get your psychology about behind the tweets and the post on truth.

我很想了解您在推文和真相帖子背后的心理。

Are you sometimes being intentionally provocative or are you just speaking your mind and are there times where you regret some of the truths you’ve posted?

您有时是故意挑衅，还是只是说出自己的想法，有时您是否对自己发布的一些事实感到后悔？

Yeah, I do, but not that often, honestly.

是的，我确实这样做，但老实说，我并不经常这样做。

29:04 I do a lot of re-posting.

我做了很多转发。

The ones you get in trouble with are the re-posts, because you find down deep, they’re into some group that you’re not supposed to be re-posting.

你遇到麻烦的是重新发帖，因为你发现内心深处，他们属于某个你不应该重新发帖的群组。

You don’t even know if those groups are good, bad or indifferent.

你甚至不知道这些群体是好、坏还是冷漠。

But the re-posts are the ones that really get you in trouble.

但转发才是真正给你带来麻烦的。

When you do your own words, it’s sort of easier.

当你自己说话时，事情会变得更容易。

But the re-posts go very, and if you’re going to check every single little symbol, and I don’t know, it’s worked out pretty well for me.

但重新发布的内容非常多，如果你要检查每一个小符号，我不知道，这对我来说效果很好。

I mean, I tell you, truth is very powerful, truth.

我的意思是，我告诉你，真理是非常强大的，真理。

And it’s my platform and it’s been very powerful, very, very powerful.

这是我的平台，它非常强大，非常非常强大。

Goes everywhere.

无处不在。

I call it my typewriter.

我称它为我的打字机。

That’s actually my typewriter.

那实际上是我的打字机。

What are you doing usually when you’re composing a truth, are you chilling back on a couch?

当你写一个真理时，你通常在做什么，你是在沙发上放松吗？

Couches, beds.

沙发，床。

Okay.

好的。

A lot of different things.

很多不同的事情。

30:02 I mean-

我的意思是——

Late at night and just-

深夜，刚刚——

I’d like to do something late at night.

我想在深夜做点什么。

30:06 I’m not a huge sleeper, but whenever I do, I’m past three o’clock, they criticize you the next day.

我睡得不多，但每当我睡觉的时候，我都会睡到三点多，第二天他们就会批评你。

Trump was up.

特朗普站起来了。

True thing.

真实的事情。

Okay.

好的。

Trump was true thing at three o’clock in the morning and there should be no problem with that.

特朗普在凌晨三点就说了实话，这应该没有问题。

And then when you think about time zones, how do they know that you are in a time zone, like an Eastern Zone, but every time I do it after 2:00 or three o’clock, it’s like, “Why is he doing that?” But it’s gotten…

然后当你考虑时区时，他们怎么知道你在一个时区，比如东区，但每次我在 2:00 或三点之后这样做，就像是，“他为什么这么做？”但已经得到了……

Truth has become a very successful platform, and I like doing it and it goes everywhere.

真相已经成为一个非常成功的平台，我喜欢这样做，而且它无处不在。

As soon as I do it, it goes everywhere.

我一做，它就到处都是。

The country seems more divided than ever.

这个国家似乎比以往任何时候都更加分裂。

30:54 What can you do to help alleviate some of that division?

你可以做些什么来帮助缓解这种分歧？

Well, you can get rid of these two people.

好吧，你可以摆脱这两个人了。

30:59 They’re terrible.

他们太可怕了。

They’re terrible.

他们太可怕了。

You don’t want to have them running this country.

你不想让他们来管理这个国家。

They’re not equipped to run it.

他们没有能力运行它。

Joe, just Joe, it’s a disaster.

乔，只是乔，这是一场灾难。

And Kamala, I think she’ll end up being worse than him.

还有卡玛拉，我认为她最终会比他更糟糕。

We’ll see.

我们会看到的。

I think a lot’s now, the convention’s over with, and I see I’m leading and just about all the polls now.

我想现在很多了，大会已经结束了，我发现我在所有民意调查中都处于领先地位。

They had their little honeymoon period as they call it, and we’ll see how that all goes.

他们度过了他们所谓的小蜜月期，我们将看看一切进展如何。

Who knows?

谁知道？

From my personal opinion, I think you are at your best when you’re talking about a positive vision of the future versus criticizing the other side.

从我个人的角度来看，我认为当你谈论对未来的积极愿景而不是批评对方时，你处于最佳状态。

Yeah, I think you have to criticize though.

是的，我认为你必须批评。

31:40 I think they’re nasty.

我认为他们很讨厌。

They came up with a story that I looked down and I called soldiers that died in World War I, suckers and losers.

他们想出了一个我看不起的故事，我称第一次世界大战中阵亡的士兵为傻瓜和失败者。

Okay.

好的。

Now number one, who would say that?

现在第一，谁会这么说？

Number two, who would say it to military people?

第二，谁会对军人说这句话？

Nobody.

没有人。

It was a made-up story.

这是一个编造的故事。

It was just a made-up story.

这只是一个编造的故事。

And they like to repeat it over again.

他们喜欢再重复一遍。

They know it was made up.

他们知道这是编造的。

I have 26 witnesses that nothing was said.

我有 26 名证人，他们什么也没说。

They don’t want to hear about that.

他们不想听到这个。

She lied on McDonald’s.

她在麦当劳撒了谎。

She said that she worked at McDonald’s.

她说她在麦当劳工作。

It’s not a big lie, but it’s a big lie.

这不是一个天大的谎言，但却是一个天大的谎言。

So they just went and they checked and unless she can show something, they don’t talk about the presses are going to follow up with it, but I’ll keep hammering it.

所以他们就去了，他们检查了，除非她能展示一些东西，否则他们不会谈论媒体将跟进它，但我会继续锤击它。

But she never worked at McDonald’s.

但她从未在麦当劳工作过。

It was just sort of a cool thing to say, “Hey, I worked at McDonald’s.”

说“嘿，我在麦当劳工作过”是一件很酷的事情。

32:41 But one of the worst was two days ago.

但最糟糕的一次是两天前。

I went to Arlington at the request of people that lost their children.

我应失去孩子的人们的请求去了阿灵顿。

They’ll always be children to those people.

对于那些人来说，他们永远是孩子。

You understand that.

你明白这一点。

That’s not politically incorrect thing to say.

这并不是政治不正确的话。

The mother comes up, “I lost my child,” but the child is a soldier.

母亲出现了，“我失去了我的孩子”，但孩子是一名士兵。

And lost the child, because of Biden and because of Kamala, just as though they had the gun in their hand, because it was so badly handled.

因为拜登和卡玛拉，他们失去了孩子，就像他们手里拿着枪一样，因为枪的处理方式太糟糕了。

It should have been done at Bagram, which is the big air base.

它应该在巴格拉姆空军基地完成，这是一个大型空军基地。

It shouldn’t have been done at a small little airport right in the middle of town where people stormed it.

这不应该在市中心的一个小机场进行，因为人们冲撞了它。

It was a true disaster and they asked me if I’d come and celebrate with them.

这真是一场灾难，他们问我是否愿意来和他们一起庆祝。

Three years.

三年了。

Three years.

三年了。

They died three years ago.

他们三年前去世了。

33:37 And I said, “I’m going to try.” I got to know them, because I brought them here, actually.

我说：“我会尝试一下。”我之所以认识他们，是因为我把他们带到了这里。

One night they almost all came here and they said, “I wonder if Trump will actually come and see us?” I heard they were here.

一天晚上，他们几乎都来到这里，他们说：“我想知道特朗普是否真的会来看我们？”我听说他们在这里。

I came.

我来了。

We stayed for four hours listening to music up on a deck, right upstairs.

我们在楼上的甲板上呆了四个小时听音乐。

Beautiful.

美丽的。

And they were great people.

他们都是伟大的人。

So they called me over the last couple of weeks and they said, “We’re going to have a reunion, our three-year reunion.”

所以他们在过去几周打电话给我说：“我们要重聚，我们的三年重聚。”

34:00 …

……

couple of weeks and they said, “We’re going to have a reunion, our three year, would you be able to come?” And it was very hard for me to do it logistically, but I said, “I’ll get it done.” And I got there and we had a beautiful time.

几周后，他们说：“我们要聚会了，我们三年了，你能来吗？”从后勤上来说，这对我来说非常困难，但我说：“我会完成的。”我到了那里，我们度过了一段美好的时光。

I didn’t run away.

我没有逃跑。

I didn’t just walk in, shake hands and walk out like people do.

我并没有像人们那样走进去，握手，然后走出去。

And I wasn’t looking at my watch like Joe Biden does.

我没有像乔·拜登那样看手表。

And it was amazing.

这太棒了。

I did it for them.

我是为他们做的。

I didn’t do it for me.

我不是为我自己做的。

I don’t need the publicity.

我不需要宣传。

I get more publicity probably than anybody.

我可能比任何人都得到更多的宣传。

You would know that better than me, but I think maybe more than anybody, maybe more than anybody that’s ever lived, I don’t know.

你会比我更清楚这一点，但我想也许比任何人都清楚，也许比任何曾经生活过的人都清楚，我不知道。

But I don’t think anyone could have anymore.

但我认为没有人可以再拥有了。

Every time you turn on the television, there’s like nine different stories all on different topics in the world.

每次你打开电视，就会看到世界上不同主题的九个不同故事。

34:48 As an example, you interview a lot of people, good people, successful people.

举个例子，你采访了很多人，好人，成功的人。

Let’s see how you do with this interview versus them.

让我们看看你在这次采访中与他们相比表现如何。

I can tell you right now you’re going to get the highest numbers you’ve ever had by sometimes a factor of 10.

我现在可以告诉你，你将获得有史以来最高的数字，有时会达到 10 倍。

But when a Gold Star Family asks me to come in and spend time with them, and then they said, sir…

但是当一个金星家庭邀请我进去和他们呆在一起时，他们说，先生……

We did a ceremony.

我们举行了一个仪式。

And then we went down to the graves, which was quite a distance away.

然后我们就下到坟墓那里去，那里距离很远。

They said, “Sir, would you come to the grave?” And then they said, when we were there…

他们说：“先生，您愿意到坟墓那里去吗？”然后他们说，当我们在那里时……

It’s very sad actually because these people shouldn’t have died.

实际上这是非常悲伤的，因为这些人不应该死。

They shouldn’t have died.

他们不应该死。

They died because of Biden and because of Kamala, they died because just like if they pulled the trigger.

他们因为拜登而死，因为卡玛拉而死，因为就像他们扣动扳机一样。

Now, I don’t know if that’s controversial to say, but I don’t think it is.

现在，我不知道这样说是否有争议，但我认为没有。

35:47 Afghanistan was the most incompetently run operation I think I’ve ever seen.

阿富汗是我所见过的最无能的行动。

Military or otherwise, they’re incompetent.

无论是军事还是其他方面，他们都是无能的。

But the families asked me if I’d go, I did go.

但家人问我愿不愿意去，我就去了。

Then the families said, “Could we have a picture at the tombstone of my son?” And we did.

然后家人说：“我们可以在我儿子的墓碑前合影吗？”我们做到了。

Son or daughter.

儿子或女儿。

There was a daughter too.

还有一个女儿。

And I took numerous pictures with the families.

我和家人拍了很多照片。

I don’t know of anybody else that was in the pictures, but they were mostly families, I guess.

我不知道照片中还有其他人，但我猜他们大多是一家人。

That was it.

就是这样。

And then I left.

然后我就离开了。

I spent a lot of time with them.

我和他们一起度过了很多时间。

Then I left and I get home that night and I get a call that the Biden administration with Kamala is accusing me of using Arlington for publicity.

然后我离开，那天晚上回到家，我接到电话，拜登政府和卡马拉指责我利用阿灵顿进行宣传。

I was in the news.

我上了新闻。

Just the opposite.

恰恰相反。

Just the opposite.

恰恰相反。

And actually, did you see, it just came out?

事实上，你看到了吗，它刚刚出来？

The families actually put out a very strong statement defending me.

家人实际上发表了非常强烈的声明来为我辩护。

They said, “We asked them to be there.”

他们说：“我们要求他们去那里。”

Well, politicians and the media can play those games.

好吧，政客和媒体可以玩这些游戏。

36:44 And you’re right, your name gets a lot of views.

你是对的，你的名字得到了很多人的关注。

You’re probably legit the most famous person in the world.

您可能是世界上最著名的人。

But on the previous thing, in the spirit of unity, you used to be a Democrat.

但就之前的事情而言，本着团结的精神，你曾经是民主党人。

Setting the politicians aside, what do you respect most about people who lean left, who are Democrats themselves or of that persuasion, progressives liberals, and so on?

抛开政客不谈，对于左倾人士、民主党人本身或民主党人、进步自由主义者等，您最尊重的是什么？

Well, look, I respect the fact that everybody’s in there, and to a certain extent, life is what you do while you’re waiting to die, so you might as well do a good job.

好吧，听着，我尊重每个人都在场的事实，在某种程度上，生活就是你在等待死亡时所做的事情，所以你最好干得好。

37:15 I think in terms of what’s happening now, I think we have a chance to save the country.

我认为就现在发生的事情而言，我认为我们有机会拯救国家。

This country’s going down and I called it with Venezuela, I called it with a lot of different countries.

这个国家正在走向衰落，我和委内瑞拉、很多不同的国家都这样称呼它。

And this country’s going down if we don’t win this election, the election coming up on November 5th is the most important election this country’s ever had because if we don’t win it, I don’t know that there’ll be another election and it’s going to be a communist country or close.

如果我们没有赢得这次选举，这个国家就会衰落，11 月 5 日即将举行的选举是这个国家有史以来最重要的选举，因为如果我们没有赢得选举，我不知道还会有另一次选举，而且它将成为一个共产主义国家或结束。

There’s a lot of people listening to this, myself included, that doesn’t think that Kamala is a communist.

有很多人听到这个，包括我自己，并不认为卡马拉是共产主义者。

Well, she’s a Marxist.

嗯，她是马克思主义者。

Her father’s a Marxist.

她的父亲是马克思主义者。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

And she’s advocating-

她提倡——

That’s a little unusual.

That’s a little unusual.

She’s advocating for some policies that are towards the direction of democratic socialism, let’s say.

比如说，她提倡一些朝着民主社会主义方向发展的政策。

38:15 But there’s a lot of people that know the way government works and they say, well, none of those policies are going to actually come to reality.

但有很多人了解政府的运作方式，他们说，这些政策都不会真正实现。

It’s just being used during the campaign to…

It’s just being used during the campaign to…

Groceries are too expensive.

Groceries are too expensive.

We need them cheaper, so let’s talk about price controls.

我们需要更便宜的价格，所以我们来谈谈价格控制。

And that’s never going to come to reality.

And that’s never going to come to reality.

It could come to reality.

It could come to reality.

38:39 Look, she came out with price control.

Look, she came out with price control.

It’s been tried like 121 different times at different places over the years, and it’s never worked once.

多年来，它在不同的地方尝试了 121 次，但从来没有成功过。

It leads to communism, it leads to socialism, it leads to having no food on the shelves, and it leads to tremendous inflation.

它导致共产主义，它导致社会主义，它导致货架上没有食物，它导致巨大的通货膨胀。

It’s just-

这只是——

A bad idea.

一个坏主意。

…

……

39:02 whenever we use terms like communism for her, and I don’t know if you know this, but some people call you a fascist.

每当我们用共产主义这样的术语来称呼她时，我不知道你是否知道这一点，但有些人称你为法西斯主义者。

Yeah, they do, so I figure it’s all right to call them a communist.

是的，他们是的，所以我认为称他们为共产主义者是可以的。

39:08 They call me a lot worse than I call them.

They call me a lot worse than I call them.

They do indeed.

他们确实这样做了。

39:14 It is just sometimes-

只是有时候——

It’s interesting though, they’ll call me something that’s terrible and then I’ll hit them back and they’ll say, “Isn’t it terrible what Trump said?” I said, “Well, wait a minute.

但有趣的是，他们会说我很糟糕，然后我会回击他们，他们会说，“特朗普说的话不是很糟糕吗？” I said, “Well, wait a minute.

39:16 They just called me…” I believe you have to fight fire with fire.

他们只是打电话给我……”我相信你必须以毒攻毒。

I believe they’re very evil people.

I believe they’re very evil people.

These are evil people.

这些都是邪恶的人。

We have an enemy from the outside and we have an enemy from within.

我们有来自外部的敌人，也有来自内部的敌人。

And in my opinion, the enemy from within are radical left lunatics.

在我看来，来自内部的敌人是激进的左翼疯子。

And I think you have to fight back.

And I think you have to fight back.

Whenever there’s a lot of fighting fire with fire, it’s too easy to forget that there is a middle of America that’s moderate and sees the good in both sides and just likes one side more than the other in terms of policies.

每当发生激烈的以牙还牙的冲突时，人们很容易忘记美国中间有一个温和派，看到双方的好处，并且在政策方面更喜欢一方。

39:44 Like I said, there’s a lot of people that like your policies, that like your skill in being able to negotiate and end wars and they don’t see the impending destruction of America.

就像我说的，有很多人喜欢你的政策，喜欢你能够谈判和结束战争的技巧，但他们没有看到美国即将遭到毁灭。

We had no wars when I was president.

We had no wars when I was president.

40:15 That’s a big thing.

这是一件大事。

Not since 78 years as that happened, but we had no wars When I was president, we defeated ISIS, but that was a war that was started that we weren’t anywhere near defeating.

78 年前就没有发生过这样的事情，但我们没有发生过战争。当我担任总统时，我们击败了 ISIS，但那是一场我们远未击败的战争。

But think of it, I had no wars and Viktor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary said, “The world has to have Trump back because everybody was afraid of Trump.” Now that’s what he said, so I’m not using that term, but I think they respected me.

但想想看，我没有经历过战争，匈牙利总理维克托·欧尔班说，“世界必须让特朗普回来，因为每个人都害怕特朗普。”现在他就是这么说的，所以我没有使用这个词，但我认为他们尊重我。

But he said, “China was afraid.

But he said, “China was afraid.

Russia was afraid.

俄罗斯很害怕。

Everybody was afraid.” And I don’t care what word they use, it probably that’s even a better word if you want to know the truth, but let’s use the word respect.

每个人都害怕。”我不在乎他们用什么词，如果你想知道真相，这可能是一个更好的词，但让我们使用尊重这个词。

40:56 They had respect for me.

他们很尊重我。

They had respect for the country.

They had respect for the country.

I ended the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, the Russian pipeline.

我结束了北溪2号管道，即俄罗斯管道。

Nobody else could have done that.

Nobody else could have done that.

I ended it.

我结束了它。

It was done.

事情完成了。

Then Biden comes in and he approved it, so we are defending Germany in these other countries for peanuts compared to what it’s worth, and they’re paying the person we’re defending them against billions and billions of dollars for energy.

然后拜登进来并批准了它，所以我们在这些其他国家为德国辩护，与它的价值相比，他们支付了数十亿美元的能源费用。

I said, “How does that work?” And we had it out with them and it worked out good.

I said, “How does that work?”我们和他们一起解决了这个问题，结果很好。

And they paid hundreds of billions of dollars.

他们支付了数千亿美元。

Or you wouldn’t even have a NATO right now.

否则你现在甚至不会有北约。

You wouldn’t have NATO if it wasn’t for me.

如果没有我，就不会有北约。

As the leader of the United States, you were the most powerful man in the world.

作为美国的领导人，您是世界上最有权势的人。

41:36 As you mentioned, not only the most famous, but the most powerful.

正如你提到的，不仅是最著名的，而且是最强大的。

And if you become leader again, you’ll have unprecedented power.

如果你再次成为领导者，你将拥有前所未有的权力。

Just on your own personal psychology, what does that power do to you?

就你个人的心理而言，这种力量对你有什么作用？

Is there any threat of it corrupting how you see the world?

它是否会影响你看待世界的方式？

No, I don’t think so.

不，我不这么认为。

41:56 Look, I’ve been there for four years.

瞧，我已经在那里呆了四年了。

I could have done a big number on Hillary Clinton.

我本来可以对希拉里·克林顿做出很大的贡献。

I thought it looked terrible to take the president’s wife and put her in prison.

我觉得把总统的妻子关进监狱看起来很糟糕。

She’s so lucky I didn’t do anything.

她很幸运我什么也没做。

She’s so lucky.

她太幸运了。

Hillary is a lucky woman because I had a lot of people pushing me too.

希拉里是一个幸运的女人，因为我也有很多人在推动我。

They wanted to see something, but…

他们想看点什么，但是……

I could have done something very bad.

I could have done something very bad.

I thought it looked so bad.

我觉得它看起来很糟糕。

Think of it, you have the President of the United States, and you also had Secretary of State, she was, but you’re going to put the president’s wife in prison.

想想看，你有美国总统，也有国务卿，她是，但你要把总统的妻子关进监狱。

And yet when I got out, they have all these hoaxes.

然而，当我出去时，他们却有这些恶作剧。

42:37 They’re all hoaxes, but they have all these dishonest hoaxes just like they did in the past with, Russia, Russia, Russia.

他们都是骗局，但他们有所有这些不诚实的骗局，就像他们过去对俄罗斯，俄罗斯，俄罗斯所做的那样。

That was a hoax.

那是一个骗局。

The 51 different agencies or agents, that was a hoax.

51 个不同的机构或代理人，那是一个骗局。

The whole thing was a hoax.

整件事都是一场骗局。

There were so many hoaxes and scams.

有很多恶作剧和骗局。

But I didn’t want to put her in jail, and I didn’t.

但我不想把她关进监狱，我也没有这么做。

And I explained it to people.

我向人们解释了这一点。

They say, “Lock her up.

他们说：“把她关起来。

Lock her up.” We won.

把她关起来。”我们赢了。

I said, “We don’t want to put her in jail.

我说：“我们不想把她关进监狱。

We want to bring the country together.

我们希望让国家团结起来。

I want to bring the country together.

我想让这个国家团结起来。

You don’t bring the country together by putting her in jail.” But then when I got out, they went to work on me.

把她关进监狱并不能让国家团结起来。”但当我出来后，他们就开始对我进行治疗。

It’s amazing.

太棒了。

And they suffer from massive Trump derangement syndrome, TDS, and I don’t know if it’s curable from their standpoint.

他们患有严重的特朗普精神错乱综合症（TDS），我不知道从他们的角度来看这是否可以治愈。

A lot of people are very interested in the footage of UFOs.

很多人对不明飞行物的镜头非常感兴趣。

43:36 The Pentagon has released a few videos, and there’s been anecdotal reports from fighter pilots, so a lot of people want to know, will you help push the Pentagon to release more footage, which a lot of people claim is available.

五角大楼已经发布了一些视频，并且有来自战斗机飞行员的轶事报道，所以很多人想知道，你会帮助推动五角大楼发布更多视频，很多人声称这些视频是可用的。

Oh yeah, sure, I’ll do that.

哦，是的，当然，我会这么做的。

43:57 I would do that.

我会那么做。

I’d love to do that.

我很乐意这样做。

I have to do that.

我必须这么做。

But they also are pushing me on Kennedy, and I did release a lot, but I had people come to me and beg me not to do it.

但他们也把我推向肯尼迪，我确实释放了很多，但有人来找我，求我不要这样做。

But I’ll be doing that very early on.

但我会很早就这样做。

Yeah, no.

是的，不。

But I would do that.

但我会那么做。

There’s a moment where you had some hesitation about Epstein releasing some of the documents on Epstein.

有一段时间，你对爱泼斯坦公布一些有关爱泼斯坦的文件有些犹豫。

44:16 Why the hesitation?

为何犹豫？

I don’t think…

我不认为……

44:23 I’m not involved.

我没有参与。

I never went to his island, fortunately, but a lot of people did.

幸运的是，我从未去过他的岛，但很多人都去过。

Why do you think so many smart, powerful people allowed him to get so close?

你认为为什么这么多聪明、有权势的人允许他走得这么近？

He was a good salesman.

他是一位优秀的推销员。

44:42 He was a hailing, hearty type of guy.

他是一个热情、热心的人。

He had some nice assets that he’d throw around like islands, but a lot of big people went to that island.

他拥有一些不错的资产，他可以像岛屿一样到处乱扔，但很多大人物都去了那个岛。

But fortunately, I was not one of them.

但幸运的是，我不是他们中的一员。

It’s just very strange for a lot of people, that the list of clients that went to the island has not been made public.

对于很多人来说很奇怪的是，去岛上的客户名单还没有公开。

It’s very interesting, isn’t it?

这很有趣，不是吗？

45:08 It probably will be, by the way, probably.

顺便说一句，可能会。

If you’re able to, you’ll be-

如果你能做到，你会——

Yeah, I’d certainly take a look at it.

是的，我当然会看一下。

45:15 Now, Kennedy’s interesting because it’s so many years ago.

现在，肯尼迪很有趣，因为那是很多年前的事了。

They do that for danger too, because it endangers certain people, et cetera, et cetera, so Kennedy is very different from the Epstein thing but I’d be inclined to do the Epstein.

他们这样做也是为了危险，因为这会危及某些人，等等，所以肯尼迪与爱泼斯坦的事情非常不同，但我倾向于做爱泼斯坦的事情。

I’d have no problem with it.

我对此没有任何问题。

That’s great to hear.

很高兴听到这个消息。

45:36 What gives you strength when you’re getting attacked?

当你受到攻击时，是什么给你力量？

You’re one of the most attacked people in the world.

你是世界上受攻击最严重的人之一。

I think you can’t care that much.

我想你不能关心那么多。

45:43 I know people that care so much about everything, like what people are saying, you can’t care too much because you end up choking.

我知道有人非常关心一切，就像人们所说的那样，你不能关心太多，因为你最终会窒息。

One of the tragic things about life is that it ends.

生命的悲剧之一就是它的结束。

45:55 How often do you think about your death?

你多久思考一次你的死亡？

Are you afraid of it?

你害怕吗？

I have a friend who’s very, very successful, and he’s in his 80s, mid 80s, and he asked me that exact same question.

我有一个非常非常成功的朋友，他已经 80 多岁了，80 多岁了，他问了我同样的问题。

46:02 I turned it around and I said, “Well, what about you?” He said, “I think about it every minute of every day.” And then a week later, he called me to tell me something.

我转过身来，说道：“那你呢？”他说：“我每天每时每刻都在思考这个问题。”一周后，他打电话给我，告诉我一些事情。

And he starts off the conversation by going, “Tick tock, tick tock.” This is dark person in a sense, but it is what it is.

他以“滴答，滴答”开始谈话。从某种意义上来说，这是一个黑暗的人，但事实就是如此。

If you’re religious, you have I think a better feeling toward it.

如果你有宗教信仰，我认为你对此会有更好的感觉。

You’re supposed to go to heaven, ideally, not hell, but you’re supposed to go to heaven if you’re good.

理想情况下，你应该去天堂，而不是地狱，但如果你足够好，你应该去天堂。

I think our country’s missing a lot of religion.

我认为我们的国家缺少很多宗教。

I think it really was a much better place with religion.

我认为这确实是一个有宗教的更好的地方。

It was almost a guide.

这几乎是一个指南。

To a certain extent it was a guide.

在某种程度上，它是一个指南。

You want to be good to people.

你想对人好。

Without religion there are no guardrails.

没有宗教就没有护栏。

I’d love to see us get back to religion, more religion in this country.

我很高兴看到我们回归宗教，在这个国家有更多的宗教。

Well, Mr. President, thank you for putting yourself out there, and thank you for talking today.

好吧，总统先生，感谢您的发言，也感谢您今天的发言。

Look, I love the country.

瞧，我爱这个国家。

47:13 I want to see the country be great, and we have a real chance at doing it, but it’s our last chance and I appreciate it very much.

我希望看到这个国家变得伟大，我们确实有机会做到这一点，但这是我们最后的机会，我非常感激。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Donald Trump.

感谢您收听与唐纳德·特朗普的对话。

47:25 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, as I’ve started doing here at the end of some episodes, let me make a few comments and answer a few questions.

现在，正如我在某些剧集结束时开始做的那样，让我发表一些评论并回答一些问题。

If you would like to submit questions, including in audio and video form, go to lexfridman.com/ama or get in touch with me for whatever other reason at lexfridman.com/contact.

如果您想提交问题（包括音频和视频形式），请访问 lexfridman.com/ama 或出于任何其他原因通过 lexfridman.com/contact 与我联系。

I usually do this on a T-shirt, but I figured for this episode, I’ll keep my suit and tie on, so first, this might be a good moment to look back a bit.

我通常在 T 恤上这样做，但我想在这一集里，我会保留我的西装和领带，所以首先，这可能是回顾一下的好时机。

I’ve been doing this podcast for over six years, and I first and foremost have to say thank you.

我做这个播客已经六年多了，我首先要说谢谢。

I’m truly grateful for the support and the love I’ve gotten along the way.

我真的很感谢一路上得到的支持和爱。

It’s been, I would say, the most unlikely journey.

我想说，这是最不可能的旅程。

48:16 And on most days, I barely feel like I know what I’m doing.

大多数时候，我几乎不知道自己在做什么。

But I wanted to talk a bit about how I approach these conversations.

但我想谈谈我如何进行这些对话。

Now, each conversation is its own unique puzzle, so I can’t speak generally to how I approach these, but here it may be useful to describe how I approach conversations with world leaders, of which I hope to have many more and do a better job every time.

现在，每一次对话都有其独特的谜题，所以我无法笼统地谈论我如何处理这些问题，但在这里描述我如何处理与世界领导人的对话可能会很有用，我希望每次都能有更多对话并做得更好。

I read a lot of history and I admire the historian perspective.

我读了很多历史，我很欣赏历史学家的观点。

As an example, I admire William Shirer, the author of many books on Hitler, including The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

举个例子，我很欣赏威廉·夏勒（William Shirer），他是许多有关希特勒的书籍的作者，其中包括《第三帝国的兴衰》。

He was there and lived through it and covered it objectively to the degree that one could.

他在那里，经历了这一切，并尽可能客观地报道了它。

Academic historians, by the way, criticize him for being a poor historian because he editorialized a little too much.

顺便说一句，学术历史学家批评他是一个糟糕的历史学家，因为他的社论有点太多了。

I think those same folks criticized Dan Carlin and his Hardcore History podcast.

我认为这些人批评了丹·卡林和他的硬核历史播客。

49:15 I respect their criticism, but I fundamentally disagree, so in these conversations with world leaders, I try to put on my historian hat.

我尊重他们的批评，但我从根本上不同意，所以在与世界领导人的对话中，我试图戴上我的历史学家帽子。

I think in the realm of truth and public discourse, there’s a spectrum between the ephemeral and the eternal.

我认为在真理和公共话语领域，短暂与永恒之间存在着一个界限。

The outraged mob and clickbait journalists are often focused on the ephemeral, the current thing, the current viral shitstormer of mockery and derision.

愤怒的暴民和标题党记者常常关注短暂的、当前的事情、当前病毒式的嘲讽和嘲笑。

But when the battle of the day is done, most of it will be forgotten.

但当当天的战斗结束后，大部分内容都会被遗忘。

A few true ideas will remain, and those the historian hopes to capture.

一些真实的想法将会保留下来，而历史学家希望捕捉到这些想法。

Now, this is much easier said than done.

现在，这说起来容易做起来难。

It’s not just about having the right ideals and the integrity to stick by them.

这不仅仅是拥有正确的理想和坚持这些理想的正直。

It’s not even just about having the actual skill of talking, which I still think I suck at, but let’s say it’s a work in progress.

这甚至不仅仅是拥有真正的说话技巧，我仍然认为我很糟糕，但我们可以说这是一项正在进行的工作。

You also have to make the scheduling work and set up the entirety of the environment in a way that is conducive to such a conversation.

您还必须以有利于此类对话的方式进行安排并设置整个环境。

50:19 This is hard, really hard with political and business leaders.

对于政界和商界领袖来说，这很难，真的很难。

They are usually super busy and in some cases super nervous because, well, they’ve been screwed over so many times with clickbait got you journalism, so to convince them and their team to talk for two, three, four, five hours is hard.

他们通常非常忙碌，在某些情况下非常紧张，因为，好吧，他们已经被标题诱饵搞砸了很多次了，所以要说服他们和他们的团队谈论两个、三个、四个、五个小时是很困难的。

And I do think a good conversation requires that kind of duration.

我确实认为一次好的对话需要这样的持续时间。

And I’ve been thinking a lot about why.

我一直在思考为什么。

I don’t think it’s just about needing the actual time of three hours to cover all the content.

我认为这不仅仅是需要三个小时的实际时间来涵盖所有内容。

I think the longer form with a hypothetical skilled conversationalist, relaxes things and allows people to go on tangents and to banter about the details because I-

我认为较长的形式与假设的熟练对话者一起，可以放松事情并允许人们继续切题并开玩笑细节，因为我-

51:00 …

……

agents and to banter about the details, because I think it’s in the details that the beautiful complexity of the person is brought to light.

代理人并嘲笑细节，因为我认为正是在细节中，人的美丽复杂性才得以凸显。

Anyway, I look forward to talking to more world leaders and doing a better job every time as I said.

不管怎样，我期待着与更多的世界领导人交谈，并每次都像我所说的那样做得更好。

I would love to do interviews with Kamala Harris and some other political figures on the left and right, including Tim Walz, AOC, Bernie, Barack Obama, Bill and Hillary.

我很乐意采访卡玛拉·哈里斯和其他一些左翼和右翼政治人物，包括蒂姆·沃尔兹、AOC、伯尼、巴拉克·奥巴马、比尔和希拉里。

And on the right, J.D.

右边是 J.D.

Vance, Vivek, George W.

万斯、维韦克、乔治 W.

and so on.

等等。

And on the topic of politics, let me say, as an immigrant, I love this country, the United States of America.

说到政治话题，我想说，作为一名移民，我爱这个国家，美利坚合众国。

I do believe it is the greatest nation on earth, and I’m grateful for the people on the left and the right who step into the arena of politics to fight for this country that I do believe they all love as well.

我确实相信这是地球上最伟大的国家，我感谢左翼和右翼的人们踏入政治舞台，为这个我相信他们也热爱的国家而战。

51:52 I have reached out to Kamala Harris, but not many of the others.

我已经联系过卡玛拉·哈里斯，但其他人却没有联系过。

I probably should do a better job with that, but I’ve been doing most of this myself, all the reach out, scheduling, research prep, recording and so on.

我可能应该在这方面做得更好，但大部分工作都是我自己做的，所有的接触、日程安排、研究准备、记录等等。

And on top of that, I very much have been suffering from imposter syndrome with a voice in my head constantly pointing out when I’m doing a shitty job.

最重要的是，我一直患有冒名顶替综合症，当我的工作做得很糟糕时，我脑子里有一个声音不断地指出我。

Plus a few folks graciously remind me on the internet, the very same sentiment of this aforementioned voice.

另外，一些人在互联网上慷慨地提醒我，上述声音也有同样的情绪。

All of this, while I have the option of just hiding away at MIT, programming robots and doing some cool AI research with a few grad students, or maybe joining an AI company or maybe starting my own, all these options make me truly happy.

所有这一切，虽然我可以选择躲在麻省理工学院，为机器人编程，和一些研究生一起做一些很酷的人工智能研究，或者加入一家人工智能公司，或者创办自己的公司，所有这些选择让我真正感到高兴。

But like I said, on most days I barely know what I’m doing, so who knows what the future holds.

但就像我说的，大多数时候我几乎不知道自己在做什么，所以谁知道未来会怎样。

Most importantly, I’m forever grateful for all of you for your patience and your support throughout this rollercoaster of the life I’ve been on.

最重要的是，我永远感谢你们所有人在我人生的过山车中给予我的耐心和支持。

I love you all.

我爱你们。

52:51 Okay, now let me go on to some of the questions that people had.

好的，现在让我继续回答人们提出的一些问题。

I was asked by a few people to comment on Pavel Durov’s arrest and on X being banned in Brazil.

有几个人请我对 Pavel Durov 被捕和 X 在巴西被禁止发表评论。

Let me first briefly comment on the Durov arrest.

我先简单评论一下杜罗夫被捕事件。

Basic facts, Pavel Durov is CEO of Telegram, which is a messenger app that has end-to-end encryption mode.

基本事实：Pavel Durov 是 Telegram 的首席执行官，Telegram 是一款具有端到端加密模式的通讯应用程序。

It’s not on by default, and most people don’t use the end-to-end encryption, but some do.

默认情况下它不是打开的，大多数人不使用端到端加密，但有些人会这样做。

Pavel was arrested in France on a long list of charges related to “criminal activity” carried out on the Telegram platform, and for “providing unlicensed cryptology services.” I think Telegram is indeed used for criminal activity by a small minority of its users, for example, by terrorist groups to communicate.

帕维尔在法国被捕，罪名是与在 Telegram 平台上进行的“犯罪活动”以及“提供未经许可的密码学服务”有关的一长串指控。我认为 Telegram 确实被一小部分用户用于犯罪活动，例如被恐怖组织用来进行交流。

And I think we all agree that terrorism is bad.

我想我们都同意恐怖主义是不好的。

53:47 But here’s the problem.

但这就是问题所在。

As the old saying goes, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

正如一句老话所说，一个人的恐怖分子是另一个人的自由斗士。

And there are many cases in which the world unilaterally agrees who the terrorists are, but there are other cases when governments, especially authoritarian inclined governments, tend to propagandize and just call whoever’s in the opposition, whoever opposes them, terrorists.

在很多情况下，世界单方面同意谁是恐怖分子，但在其他情况下，政府，特别是有独裁倾向的政府，往往会进行宣传，只是将反对派、反对他们的人称为恐怖分子。

There is some room for nuance here, but, to me at this time, it seems to obviously be a power grab by government wanting to have backdoor access into every platform so they can have censorship power against the opposition.

这里有一些细微差别的空间，但是，对我来说，这显然是政府的权力攫取，希望拥有进入每个平台的后门，以便他们可以对反对派拥有审查权。

I think generally governments should stay out of censoring or even pressuring social media platforms, and I think arresting a CEO of a tech company for the things said on the platform he built is just nuts.

我认为一般来说政府应该避免对社交媒体平台进行审查甚至施压，而且我认为因为科技公司首席执行官在他建立的平台上发表的言论而逮捕他简直是疯了。

It has a chilling effect on him, on people working at Telegram and on people working at every social media company, and also people thinking of launching a new social media company.

这对他、Telegram 的工作人员、每家社交媒体公司的工作人员，以及考虑创办新社交媒体公司的人来说，都产生了寒蝉效应。

54:50 Same as the case of X being banned in Brazil.

与巴西禁止 X 的情况相同。

It’s, I think, a power grab by Alexandre de Moraes, a Supreme Court justice in Brazil.

我认为，这是巴西最高法院法官亚历山大·德·莫赖斯（Alexandre de Moraes）的权力攫取。

He ordered X to block certain accounts that are spreading “misinformation.” Elon and X denied the request, then de Moraes threatened to arrest X representatives in Brazil, and in response to that X pulled the representatives out of Brazil obviously to protect them.

他命令 X 封锁某些传播“错误信息”的账户。埃隆和 X 拒绝了这一请求，然后德莫赖斯威胁要逮捕 X 在巴西的代表，作为回应，X 将这些代表撤出了巴西，显然是为了保护他们。

And now X, having no representatives in Brazil, apparently violates the law.

现在X在巴西没有代表，显然违反了法律。

Based on this de Moraes banned X in Brazil.

基于此，德莫赖斯在巴西禁止了 X。

Once again, it’s an authoritarian figure seeking censorship power over the channels of communication.

再次，这是一个寻求对沟通渠道进行审查的独裁人物。

55:34 I understand that this is complicated because there are evil people in the world and part of the role of government is to protect us from those evil people.

我知道这很复杂，因为世界上有邪恶的人，政府的部分作用是保护我们免受这些邪恶的人的侵害。

But as Benjamin Franklin said, “Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” It’s a trade-off, but I think in many places in the world, many governments have leaned too far away at this time from liberty.

但正如本杰明·富兰克林所说，“那些为了获得一点暂时安全而放弃基本自由的人，既不配获得自由，也不配获得安全。”这是一种权衡，但我认为在世界上许多地方，许多政府此时已经离自由太远了。

56:02 Okay, next up I got a question on AI, which I emotionally connected with.

好吧，接下来我有一个关于人工智能的问题，我与它有情感上的联系。

I’ll condense it as follows.

我将其浓缩如下。

“Hello, Lex.

“你好，莱克斯。

I’m a programmer and I have a deep fear of slipping into irrelevance because I am worried that AI will soon exceed my programming skills.”

我是一名程序员，我非常担心自己会变得无关紧要，因为我担心人工智能很快就会超越我的编程技能。”

56:23 Let me first say that I relate to your fear.

首先我要说的是我对你的恐惧感同身受。

It’s scary to have a thing that gives you a career and gives you meaning to be taken away.

拥有一件能给你职业生涯却赋予你意义的东西却被夺走是很可怕的。

For me, programming is a passion, and if not for this podcast, it would probably at least in part be my profession so I get an uncomfortable feeling every time, Claude, the LLM I use for coding at this time just writes a lot of excellent approximately correct code.

对我来说，编程是一种激情，如果不是这个播客，它可能至少部分是我的职业，所以每次我都会有一种不舒服的感觉，克劳德，我此时用于编码的法学硕士只是写了很多优秀的近似正确的代码。

I think you can make a good case that it already exceeds the skill of many programmers, at least in the same way that the collective intelligence of stack overflow exceeds the skill of many individual programmers, but in many ways it still does not.

我认为你可以很好地证明它已经超出了许多程序员的技能，至少就像堆栈溢出的集体智慧超过了许多个体程序员的技能一样，但在很多方面它仍然没有。

But I think eventually more and more the task, the professional programming will be one of writing natural language prompts.

但我认为最终越来越多的任务、专业编程将成为编写自然语言提示的任务之一。

I think the right thing to do, and what I’m at least doing is to ride the wave of the ever improving code generating LLMs and keep transforming myself into a big picture designer versus low-level tinkerer.

我认为正确的做法是，我至少正在做的就是顺应不断改进的代码生成法学硕士的浪潮，不断将自己转变为一名大局设计师，而不是低级修补匠。

What I’m doing and what I recommend you do is continually switch to whatever state-of-the-art tool is for generating code.

我正在做的以及我建议您做的就是不断切换到任何最先进的工具来生成代码。

For me, currently I recently switched from VS Code to Cursor, and before that it was Emacs to VS Code switch.

对我来说，目前我最近从 VS Code 切换到 Cursor，在此之前是 Emacs 到 VS Code 的切换。

Cursor is this editor that’s based on VS Code that leans heavily on LLMs and integrates the co-generation really nicely into the editing process.

Cursor 是一个基于 VS Code 的编辑器，它很大程度上依赖于 LLM，并将联合生成很好地集成到编辑过程中。

It makes it super easy to continually use the LLMs.

它使得持续使用法学硕士变得非常容易。

What I would advise and what I’m trying to do myself is to learn how to use it and to master its co-generation capabilities.

我的建议和我自己正在努力做的是学习如何使用它并掌握其热电联产功能。

I, personally, try to now allocate a significant amount of time to designing with natural language first versus writing code from scratch, so using my understanding of programming to edit the code that’s generated by the LLM versus writing it from scratch and then using the LLM to generate small parts of the code.

我个人现在尝试分配大量时间首先使用自然语言进行设计，而不是从头开始编写代码，因此使用我对编程的理解来编辑 LLM 生成的代码，而不是从头开始编写代码，然后使用 LLM 生成代码的一小部分。

I see it as a skill that I should develop in parallel to my programming skill.

我认为这是一项我应该与编程技能并行发展的技能。

58:34 I think this applies to many other careers too.

我认为这也适用于许多其他职业。

Don’t compete with AI for your job, learn to use the AI to do that job better.

不要与人工智能竞争你的工作，而是学习使用人工智能更好地完成工作。

But yes, it is scary in some deep human level, the threat of being replaced.

但是，是的，在人类的某些深层层面上，被取代的威胁是令人恐惧的。

But at least I think we’ll be okay.

但至少我认为我们会没事的。

58:55 All right, next up, I got a very nice audio message and question from a gentleman who is 27 and feeling a lot of anxiety about the future.

好吧，接下来，我收到了一位 27 岁的绅士发来的非常好的音频消息和问题，他对未来感到非常焦虑。

Just recently he graduated with a bachelor’s degree and he’s thinking about going to grad school for biomedical engineering, but there is a lot of anxiety.

最近他刚刚获得学士学位，他正在考虑去读生物医学工程研究生，但他有很多焦虑。

He mentioned anxiety many times in the message.

他在留言中多次提到焦虑。

It took him an extra while to get his degree, so he mentioned he would be 32 by the time he’s done with his PhD, so it’s a big investment.

他花了额外的时间才获得学位，所以他提到，当他完成博士学位时，他已经 32 岁了，所以这是一笔很大的投资。

But he said in his heart he feels like he’s a scientist.

但他说，他心里觉得自己是一名科学家。

I think that’s the most important part of his message, of your message.

我认为这是他的信息和你的信息中最重要的部分。

By the way, I’ll figure out how to best include audio and video messages in future episodes.

顺便说一句，我会弄清楚如何在未来的剧集中最好地包含音频和视频消息。

59:37 Now onto the question.

现在进入问题。

Thank you for telling me your story and for submitting the question.

感谢您告诉我您的故事并提交问题。

My own life story is similar to yours.

我自己的人生故事与你相似。

I went to Drexel University for my bachelor’s, master’s, and doctorate degrees, and I took a while just as you’re doing.

我去德雷克塞尔大学攻读学士、硕士和博士学位，我和你一样花了一段时间。

I did a lot of non-standard things that weren’t any good for some hypothetical career I’m supposed to have.

我做了很多不标准的事情，这些事情对我应该拥有的一些假设的职业没有任何好处。

I trained and competed in Judo and Jiu Jitsu for my entire 20s, got a black belt from it.

我整个20多岁都参加柔道和柔术的训练和比赛，并获得了黑带。

I wrote a lot, including a lot of really crappy poetry.

我写了很多，包括很多非常蹩脚的诗。

I read a large amount of non-technical books, history, philosophy, and literature.

我阅读了大量的非技术书籍、历史、哲学和文学。

I took courses on literature and philosophy that weren’t at all required for my computer science and electrical engineering degrees, like a course on James Joyce.

我选修了文学和哲学课程，这些课程根本不是我的计算机科学和电气工程学位所必需的，比如詹姆斯·乔伊斯的课程。

I played guitar in bars around town.

我在镇上的酒吧里弹吉他。

I took a lot of technical classes, many, for example, on theoretical computer science that were way more than were needed for the degree.

我参加了很多技术课程，例如，许多关于理论计算机科学的课程，这些课程远远超出了该学位所需的内容。

I did a lot of research and I coded up a bunch of projects that didn’t directly contribute to my dissertation.

我做了很多研究，编写了很多项目，但这些项目并没有直接对我的论文做出贡献。

It was pure curiosity and the joy of exploring.

这是纯粹的好奇心和探索的乐趣。

1:00:54 Like you, I took the long way home, as they say, and I regret none of it.

正如他们所说，像你一样，我走了很长的路回家，我对此并不后悔。

Throughout that, people around me and even people who love me wanted me to hurry up and to focus, especially because I had very little money, and so I had a sense like time was running out for me to take the needed steps towards a reasonable career.

在整个过程中，我周围的人，甚至爱我的人都希望我快点集中注意力，特别是因为我的钱很少，所以我有一种感觉，时间已经不多了，我无法采取必要的步骤来实现合理的职业生涯。

And just like you, I was filled with anxiety and I still am filled with anxiety to this day, but I think the right thing to do is not to run away from the anxiety, but to lean into it and channel it into pursuing with everything you got, the things you’re passionate about.

就像你一样，我也充满了焦虑，直到今天我仍然充满了焦虑，但我认为正确的做法不是逃避焦虑，而是深入其中，将其引导到追求你所拥有的一切、你所热衷的事情上。

1:01:36 As you said, very importantly, in your heart you know you’re a scientist, so that’s it.

正如你所说，非常重要的是，你内心知道你是一名科学家，仅此而已。

You know exactly what to do.

你清楚地知道该怎么做。

Pursue the desire to be a scientist with everything you got.

用你所拥有的一切去追求成为一名科学家的愿望。

Get to a good grad school, find a good advisor and do epic shit with them.

进入一所好的研究生院，找到一个好的导师，并与他们一起做史诗般的事情。

And it may turn out in the end that your life will have unexpected chapters, but as long as you’re chasing dreams and goals with absolute unwavering dedication, good stuff will come of it.

最终你的生活可能会出现意想不到的篇章，但只要你以坚定不移的奉献精神追逐梦想和目标，美好的事情就会随之而来。

And also try your best to be a good person.

并且也要努力做一个好人。

This might be a good place to read the words If by Roger Kipling that I often return to when I feel lost and I’m looking for guidance on how to be a better man.

这可能是阅读罗杰·吉卜林（Roger Kipling）的《如果》这句话的好地方，当我感到失落并寻求如何成为一个更好的人的指导时，我经常会回顾这句话。

1:02:18 “If you can keep your head when all about your losing theirs and blaming it on you.

“当你失去他们的头脑并将其归咎于你时，如果你能保持头脑清醒。

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too.

当所有人都怀疑你时，如果你能相信自己，但也要考虑到他们的怀疑。

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting or being lied about, don’t deal in lies or being hated, don’t give weight to hating and yet don’t look too good nor talk too wise.

如果你能等待，不因等待或被欺骗而感到疲倦，就不会撒谎或被人憎恨，不会加重憎恨，但不要看起来太好，也不要说得太明智。

If you can dream and not make dreams your master.

如果你能梦想而不是让梦想成为你的主人。

If you can think and not make thoughts your aim.

如果你能思考而不是把思考作为你的目标。

If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same.

如果你能面对胜利和灾难，对这两个冒名顶替者一视同仁。

If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools or watch the things you gave your life to broken and stoop and build them up with worn out tools.

如果你能忍受听到你所说的真相被无赖扭曲，为傻瓜设下陷阱，或者眼睁睁地看着你付出生命的东西被破坏，弯腰用破旧的工具把它们建造起来。

If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss and lose and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss.

如果你能把所有的奖金赚到一大堆，并在一轮投球中冒险，然后输掉比赛，然后从头开始，并且对你的失败只字不提。

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew to serve your turn long after they’re gone and so hold on when there’s nothing in you except the will, which says to them, hold on.

如果你能强迫你的心、神经和肌腱在它们消失很久之后继续为你服务，那么当你除了意志之外什么都没有的时候，坚持下去，意志对它们说，坚持下去。

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings nor lose the common touch.

若能与众人交谈而保持德行，与君王同行而不失俗气。

If neither foes, nor loving friends can hurt you.

如果敌人和挚友都不能伤害你。

If all men count with you, but none too much.

如果所有男人都对你很重要，但没有一个太重要。

If you can fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds worth of distance run, yours is the earth and everything that’s in it.

如果你能用 60 秒的长跑来填满这无情的一分钟，那么你的就是地球和其中的一切。

And which is more, you’ll be a man, my son.”

更重要的是，你将成为一个男人，我的儿子。”

1:04:05 Thank you for listening and see you next time.

感谢您的聆听，下次再见。