DHH：编程的未来、AI、智能体工程、氛围编程与 Linux

There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen.

有几十年什么都没有发生，也有几周发生了几十年。

00:00 And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months.

我们在过去九个月里看到了数十年的进步。

If you’re not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that’s the delusion.

如果你没有认识到当下的严重性，那就是错觉。

That’s the psychosis.

这就是精神病。

Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, “You can have whatever you want.

如果一个精灵突然从瓶子里跳出来，说：“你可以拥有任何你想要的东西，谁会不感到疯狂呢？

Every feature you’ve ever dreamed of in an operating system, I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it’s gonna take me two hours.” I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits.

你所梦想的操作系统中的每一个功能，我都可以提供给你，其中大部分只需 5 分钟，少数只需 20 分钟，如果我们真的疯狂，我需要两个小时。”我想要最快的汽车突破速度限制。

I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench.

我想要一块可以潜入马里亚纳海沟的潜水表。

I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds.

我想要一个可以在 60 秒内安装的操作系统。

00:48 One of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I’d lay down on the garage floor and just think, “Holy fuck, I’m alive.” The Overton window does not open itself.

我一直喜欢赛车的一件事是，当我从车里跌跌撞撞地走出来时，我的头完全被撞坏了，几乎无法抬起头，我会躺在车库的地板上，心想：“天哪，我还活着。”奥弗顿的窗户不会自动打开。

It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little.

人们冒着一点点风险，它就会一次一点地推动。

A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback.

一点声誉，一点阻力，一点批评，或者有时可能有很多声誉或很多批评或很多阻力。

Creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet.

与你所爱的另一个人一起创造生活实际上是在这个星球上的巅峰体验。

The following is a conversation with David Heinemeier Hansson, also known as DHH, creator of Ruby on Rails, CTO of 37signals, creator of the new Omarchy Linux operating system, best-selling author, race car driver, and one of the most outspoken and prolific programmers in the world.

以下是与 David Heinemeier Hansson 的对话，David Heinemeier Hansson 也被称为 DHH，Ruby on Rails 的创建者、37signals 的 CTO、新 Omarchy Linux 操作系统的创建者、畅销书作家、赛车手以及世界上最直言不讳、最多产的程序员之一。

01:28 For the past 20-plus years, for him, programming meant meticulously handcrafting beautiful Ruby code.

在过去的 20 多年里，对他来说，编程意味着精心手工编写漂亮的 Ruby 代码。

But recently, since late 2025, DHH has embraced the AI revolution and has openly transformed himself into, once again, one of the most outspoken and prolific agentic engineers, even though he hates that term.

但最近，自 2025 年底以来，DHH 拥抱了人工智能革命，并再次公开地将自己转变为最直言不讳、最多产的代理工程师之一，尽管他讨厌这个词。

So let’s say practitioners of whatever programming is becoming where AI is doing most of the actual programming and the human steers the ship with high-level design, vision, and taste.

因此，假设无论哪种编程的从业者都在人工智能完成大部分实际编程，而人类则以高级设计、愿景和品味来驾驶这艘船。

Yes, it’s true.

是的，这是真的。

02:28 DHH is at times controversial, but he’s always fearless, brilliant, and fun to talk to.

DHH 有时会引起争议，但他总是无所畏惧、才华横溢，而且交谈起来很有趣。

This was, once again, an intense, eye-opening, and a wild rollercoaster ride of a conversation.

这又是一次激烈、令人大开眼界、疯狂的过山车般的谈话。

This is a Lex Fridman podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

为了支持它，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。

And now, dear friends, here’s DHH.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这里是 DHH。

02:56 13 months ago, we sat down right here to talk about programming, and then everything changed.

13 个月前，我们坐下来谈论编程，然后一切都改变了。

At that time, you were a bit skeptical about the role of AI in the process of programming, and then we went through this rapid evolution of agentic engineering.

当时，你对人工智能在编程过程中的作用有点怀疑，然后我们经历了代理工程的快速演变。

So simple question to start: How has your view on AI’s role in programming changed?

首先问一个简单的问题：您对人工智能在编程中的作用的看法发生了怎样的变化？

Are you excited?

你兴奋吗？

Are you terrified?

你害怕吗？

03:23 Are you on an emotional rollercoaster ride?

您是否正在经历情绪过山车？

I am incredibly excited.

我非常兴奋。

You’ve been talking about fun a lot.

你已经谈论了很多乐趣。

There is none of the existential threat.

不存在任何生存威胁。

03:31 That doesn’t exist for me as an emotional component.

这对我来说并不作为情感成分存在。

It is only there as an intellectual component, and the emotional component for me is 100% pure, unadulterated joy- …

它只是作为一种智力成分而存在，而情感成分对我来说是100%纯粹的、不掺杂任何杂质的快乐——……

and optimism and amazement that we’ve made computers do this.

以及我们让计算机做到这一点的乐观和惊讶。

And I find it so interesting that we talked just 13 months ago because it’s like we talked in different universes, different eras.

我觉得我们 13 个月前的谈话非常有趣，因为这就像我们在不同的宇宙、不同的时代进行谈话。

I love this quote.

我喜欢这句话。

I think it’s Lenin.

我认为是列宁。

There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen.

有几十年什么都没有发生，也有几周发生了几十年。

And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months.

我们在过去九个月里看到了数十年的进步。

I mean, imagine you’re there when the Wright brothers take flight.

我的意思是，想象一下当莱特兄弟起飞时你就在那里。

04:21 Yesterday, the New York Times would write, “It’s gonna be 10,000 years before we fly,” and then the day after, we’re up in the skies, and just a few years after that, there were cross-Atlantic planes.

昨天，《纽约时报》会写道，“我们还要一万年才能飞翔”，然后第二天，我们就飞上了天空，仅仅几年后，就有了横跨大西洋的飞机。

The whole world has completely changed.

整个世界已经完全改变了。

What a blessing to be there in that moment.

那一刻能在场是多么幸运啊。

If you zoom out and look at all of human history, how many humans got to live within the same epoch that they were born in?

如果你把目光放远，看看整个人类历史，有多少人生活在他们出生的同一个时代？

They never saw that complete change of the world and of society.

他们从未见过世界和社会发生彻底的变化。

And to have been blessed with two of those feels just such a privilege.

能有幸拥有其中的两个，真是一种荣幸。

I got to see the internet- …

我得看看互联网——……

from pre-internet to post-internet, and then now pre-AI, post-AI.

从前互联网到后互联网，再到前人工智能、后人工智能。

What an amazing run.

多么奇妙的跑步啊。

How fortunate.

多么幸运。

Yeah, but the thing is, this feels like a thing that happened faster than anything else in human history.

是的，但问题是，这感觉像是人类历史上发生得更快的事情。

Correct.

正确的。

So I would say somewhere around December, maybe late November-

所以我会说在 12 月左右，也许是 11 月底——

November 24.

11 月 24 日。

This is…

这是……

That’s the exact moment.

那就是确切的时刻。

You know, when they talk about when one nation invades another in a world war or something like this, it– this is how we talk about AI changing everything.

你知道，当他们谈论一个国家在世界大战或类似的事情中入侵另一个国家时，这就是我们谈论人工智能改变一切的方式。

05:26 Yeah, the…

是的，那个……

And it really just shifted for many great developers.

对于许多优秀的开发人员来说，情况确实发生了变化。

It shifted to where AI is doing some basic autocomplete, maybe writing 5, 10, 15, 20% of code, to writing 80% of code.

它转向人工智能做一些基本的自动完成，可能编写 5%、10%、15%、20% 的代码，到编写 80% 的代码。

Or 100.

或者100。

Or 100, yeah, especially if it’s not a public-facing product.

或者 100，是的，特别是如果它不是面向公众的产品。

To me, that’s why even when I look back upon our conversation a year ago, I don’t actually have different opinions.

对我来说，这就是为什么即使我回顾一年前我们的谈话，我实际上也没有什么不同的看法。

05:54 I have the same opinions.

我也有同样的看法。

A year ago, I did not like the mode of AI we were offered.

一年前，我不喜欢我们提供的人工智能模式。

It was the autocomplete mode, or it was the AI chatbot mode.

这是自动完成模式，或者是人工智能聊天机器人模式。

Now, the chatbot I actually liked, as we talked about.

现在，正如我们所讨论的，我真正喜欢的聊天机器人。

Great tutor right from the get-go, great way of looking things up on the internet, not what was gonna replace me chiseling code.

从一开始就是很棒的导师，是在互联网上查找内容的好方法，而不是取代我凿代码的东西。

But- …

但是——……

then we get the agents.

然后我们就得到了代理。

Yeah.

是的。

And the agents start out being curiosities for about five minutes, and then they get amazing, and then they get, “Oh my God, is this AGI?” And all of that happened since last year, even just in, within the last nine months.

特工们一开始感到好奇大约五分钟，然后他们变得惊奇，然后他们会说，“天哪，这是 AGI 吗？”所有这一切都发生在去年以来，甚至就在过去九个月内。

06:28 We have basically these few phases here.

我们这里基本上有这几个阶段。

We have AI in the pre-agentic era.

我们在前代理时代拥有人工智能。

I was excited about that, but it was not fundamentally rewriting the rules of the game for me.

我对此感到兴奋，但这并没有从根本上重写我的游戏规则。

It was not completely changing how I worked.

这并没有完全改变我的工作方式。

I was still chiseling code, I just had a little helper, a little sidekick-

我还在敲代码，我只是有一个小帮手，一个小助手——

07:08 …

……

who could bounce ideas off, and I could look up this information online and so forth in a more efficient way.

谁可以提出想法，我可以以更有效的方式在网上查找这些信息等等。

It was just a more efficient way to do what I was already doing, and it didn’t change the emotional connection I had to the computer.

这只是一种更有效的方式来完成我已经在做的事情，并且它并没有改变我与计算机的情感联系。

Then we get to November 24th, 2025.

然后我们就到了 2025 年 11 月 24 日。

Opus 4.5, to me, was the dividing line, where suddenly…

Opus 4.5 对我来说是分界线，突然……

I didn’t even try it on the 24th.

24号我什至都没有尝试过。

I think I tried it on the 26th.

我想我26号就试过了。

I gave it a couple of tasks, and I realize that the quality of the output is uncannily close to what I would’ve written.

我给它分配了几个任务，我意识到输出的质量与我编写的内容惊人地接近。

And I remember just leaning back and thinking, “What just happened?”

我记得我只是向后靠去想，“刚刚发生了什么？”

07:55 “How did we go from this autocomplete mess that I was talking to you about in the summer to this just a few short months later?

“我们是如何从我夏天和你谈论的自动完成混乱变成短短几个月后的呢？

How did we get both the increase in intelligence and then also the increase in usability?” This agent harness question where I don’t know if Opus 4.5 was that much smarter than Opus 4, which is what we had in the summer, but its ability to instrument your computer, to use tools, to check its own work, to apply its intelligence in such a way that you could get real meaningful work out of it, was completely different.

我们如何既提高了智力又提高了可用性？”这个代理利用问题，我不知道 Opus 4.5 是否比 Opus 4 聪明得多，这是我们在夏天使用的，但它能够检测您的计算机、使用工具、检查自己的工作、以这样的方式应用其智能，以便您可以从中获得真正有意义的工作，这是完全不同的。

And I think this is then the big change that happens for almost anyone who paid attention and started playing with it over the Christmas break.

我认为这对于几乎所有在圣诞假期期间关注并开始玩它的人来说都是一个巨大的变化。

This is what I heard-

这是我听到的——

08:44 …

……

from Shopify and other places with lots of employees who suddenly had a breather, suddenly had a couple of weeks to lean back and just look at what was going on, gave it a try, and had the same mind-blowing experience that these agents were of a different genre than what we had before.

来自 Shopify 和其他拥有大量员工的地方的员工突然喘口气，突然有几周的时间休息一下，看看正在发生的事情，尝试一下，并获得了同样令人兴奋的体验，这些代理商与我们之前的类型不同。

And then what we get to is, I’m already excited at this point.

然后我们得到的是，此时我已经很兴奋了。

Like, by December, I’m already revisiting sort of all my priors- …

就像，到了 12 月，我已经在重新审视我之前的所有事情了——……

and going like, “Wow, if it can do this, can it also do that?” “Oh, yeah, it can.” And again, Opus 4.5 now looks like a retarded model.

然后会说，“哇，如果它能做到这个，它也能做到那个吗？” “哦，是的，可以。”再说一遍，Opus 4.5 现在看起来就像是一个迟钝的型号。

And this is the magic of this progress, is you think you’ve reached something…

这就是这种进步的魔力，你认为你已经达到了某些目标......

I remember thinking at the moment, “If this is the last model we get, I’ll be set.

我记得当时我在想：“如果这是我们得到的最后一个模型，我就确定了。

I’ll be happy.”

我会很高兴。”

Yeah.

是的。

09:39 Yep.

是的。

I could live with Opus 4.5 for the next 20 years- …

我可以在接下来的 20 年里一直使用 Opus 4.5——……

and you would hear no complaints from me because it was just so incredibly amazing to see an agent do all this work in the way that I wanted it done.

你不会听到我的任何抱怨，因为看到一个代理按照我想要的方式完成所有这些工作真是太令人难以置信了。

Because it was not just about it being able to solve a task, it was also that I could look at its path there and go, “Yep.

因为这不仅仅是它能够解决任务，而且我可以看看它在那里的路径，然后说：“是的。

Yep.

是的。

Maybe not there, but almost,” and it would give you two notes.

也许不存在，但几乎”，它会给你两个注释。

You’ll get to where I wanted to go in the way I wanted to go there.

你会以我想去的方式到达我想去的地方。

You could produce code I wanted to merge.

您可以生成我想要合并的代码。

You could produce code that actually looked beautiful if it was written in Ruby.

如果用 Ruby 编写，您可以生成实际上看起来很漂亮的代码。

Rust, different question.

生锈，不同的问题。

But this ability for the agents to truly become an extension of how I wanted to work was very novel.

但代理真正成为我想要的工作方式的延伸的这种能力是非常新颖的。

But then we wait just until early spring, and suddenly we get sub-agents.

但等到早春，我们突然就得到了次级代理。

10:37 We get harnesses that can subdivide the task, and something that would take Opus quite a while suddenly took a fifth of the time, a 10th of the time, because it could get chopped up and suddenly you got eight sub-agents working for you.

我们得到了可以细分任务的工具，原本需要 Opus 相当长一段时间的事情突然需要五分之一、十分之一的时间，因为它可能会被分割，突然间你就会有八个子代理为你工作。

But both of those two first phases of the agentic age, to me, still felt like I had to drive.

但对我来说，代理时代的这两个第一阶段仍然感觉我必须开车。

I could tell it what I wanted, where to look for it, and steer it a little bit when it went off, and then we’ll get there, and I would go much faster.

我可以告诉它我想要什么，在哪里寻找它，并在它启动时稍微引导它，然后我们就会到达那里，而且我会走得更快。

11:11 But I had to be in the driver’s seat.

但我必须坐在驾驶座上。

I had to tell it what I wanted, and I had to be the reviewer, the auditor of what was coming out.

我必须告诉它我想要什么，并且我必须成为即将发布的内容的审阅者和审计者。

And then finally now, this summer, with Opus 5, Fable, and Sol, GPT Sol, and to a lesser extent, some of the open weight models, we’ve arrived at a new era where I’m not telling it where we’re going.

最后，今年夏天，随着 Opus 5、Fable、Sol、GPT Sol，以及在较小程度上的一些开放权重模型，我们已经到达了一个新时代，我不会告诉它我们要去哪里。

I’m telling it the problem I have.

我告诉它我遇到的问题。

I’m telling it the fuzzy, vague idea I have.

我告诉它我的模糊想法。

It tells me where we’re going.

它告诉我我们要去哪里。

It tells me which path to take, and I will still look at it because I’m a curious person and I like computers and I like the outcome of it, but I really kinda don’t have to.

它告诉我该走哪条路，我仍然会关注它，因为我是一个好奇的人，我喜欢计算机，我喜欢它的结果，但我真的有点不需要。

I’ve become optional in the part that produces the code that picks the route.

我在生成选择路线的代码的部分中变得可选。

Remember when early GPS systems came out?

还记得早期 GPS 系统问世的时间吗？

12:09 They were amazing compared to looking at a map, but you still wanted to pay attention.

与查看地图相比，它们令人惊叹，但您仍然想注意。

Is it gonna drive you in the harbor?

它会开车送你到港口吗？

I remember these newspaper articles.

我记得这些报纸文章。

“Ah, GPS, they’re terrible because people don’t pay attention, they drive in the harbor.” When was the last time GPS drove anyone in the harbor?

“啊，GPS，它们很糟糕，因为人们不注意，它们在港口里行驶。” GPS 上次在港口开车是什么时候？

Like, that just doesn’t happen anymore.

就像，这样的事情不会再发生了。

In fact, the cars now just drive themselves, right?

事实上，汽车现在只是自动驾驶，对吧？

And this is where we’ve arrived at now, that I can trust.

这就是我们现在所达到的目标，我可以相信。

For the domain I’m working in right now, I can trust it and feel completely confident that it’s gonna have my back.

对于我现在工作的领域，我可以信任它，并且完全有信心它会支持我。

It’s not gonna do something stupid, and if it does something stupid, it’s gonna be able to recover.

它不会做一些愚蠢的事情，如果它做了一些愚蠢的事情，它也能够恢复。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

12:45 We should mention that there’s all kinds of domains that-

我们应该提到的是，有各种各样的领域——

Correct.

正确。

…

……

12:48 programmers operate in.

程序员操作于.

There’s…

有……

I actually don’t know, but I think the most common domain in development is, like, web dev CRUD.

我实际上不知道，但我认为开发中最常见的领域是 Web dev CRUD。

You have a database.

你有一个数据库。

13:00 You have a user-facing interface, and it does something back and forth, and it could be internal to just one person, to multiple people, to a small number of people, or to the world.

你有一个面向用户的界面，它来回做一些事情，它可以是一个人、多人、一小部分人或全世界的内部。

And I think for that, it’s– I mean, you could really get to the 100% of code written by AI and really almost– if you’re a good programmer and you have a good intuition about what’s happening behind the scenes, you can legitimately not look at the code, at least that’s been my experience.

我认为，就这一点而言，我的意思是，你真的可以得到 100% 由 AI 编写的代码，而且几乎可以说，如果你是一名优秀的程序员，并且你对幕后发生的事情有很好的直觉，你可以合法地不查看代码，至少这是我的经验。

I don’t know how much prior experience with programming you need to have to kinda know that things are working correctly behind the scenes, like intuitively by observing the ripple effects, the symptoms of the system.

我不知道你需要多少编程经验才能知道幕后一切正常工作，比如直观地观察连锁反应、系统症状。

13:45 But I think for that domain it’s close to 100%, and then there’s domains like you’re also operating in, which is writing a Linux distribution.

但我认为对于该领域来说，它接近 100%，然后还有像您一样正在操作的领域，即编写 Linux 发行版。

There, maybe there’s more because you’re obsessed with speed and all that kind of stuff.

在那里，也许还有更多，因为你痴迷于速度和所有类似的东西。

There, maybe you need to look at the code a little bit more.

在那里，也许您需要多看一下代码。

Then there’s maybe safety critical systems all the way down to operating a nuclear power plant or a self-driving car.

然后可能还有安全关键系统，一直到运行核电站或自动驾驶汽车。

Maybe you need to look at the code more carefully.

也许您需要更仔细地查看代码。

Yes, but that said, AI is insanely capable at both finding-

是的，但话虽如此，人工智能在发现和发现方面都具有惊人的能力——

Yeah.

是的。

…

……

14:17 and fixing security vulnerabilities.

并修复安全漏洞。

This was the whole blowup about Fable.

这就是《神鬼寓言》的整个爆发过程。

This model was so capable of finding holes that an attacker could exploit that it was simply not safe to release.

该模型非常能够发现攻击者可以利用的漏洞，因此发布它根本不安全。

So the irony here is that when you look at that field, it seems like we’ve reached levels of intelligence that virtually no human can match because many of these security holes are about stringing combo moves together.

因此，讽刺的是，当你观察这个领域时，我们似乎已经达到了几乎没有人类可以匹敌的智能水平，因为许多安全漏洞都是关于将组合动作串在一起的。

You find one little vulnerability here that by itself might not be the worst thing in the world, but then you combine it with four others, and suddenly you have RCE, remote command execution.

你在这里发现了一个小漏洞，它本身可能并不是世界上最糟糕的事情，但是当你将它与其他四个漏洞结合起来时，突然间你就拥有了 RCE，即远程命令执行。

Humans who are able to do that are very rare.

能够做到这一点的人类非常罕见。

They usually work inside state-sponsored organizations or other clandestine operations.

他们通常在国家资助的组织或其他秘密组织内工作。

They’re not just out and about finding things.

他们不只是出去寻找东西。

15:14 So they’ve gotten so good at that.

所以他们在这方面做得非常好。

The Linux distribution is why I’ve gotten 100% AI pilled.

Linux 发行版是我 100% AI 被抛弃的原因。

Because I’ve been working on Omarchy for the last three months, this version that just dropped a few days ago called Quattro.

因为过去三个月我一直在开发 Omarchy，所以几天前刚刚发布的这个版本称为 Quattro。

And almost right from the beginning I’m working on that version, the agent acceleration neared 100%, and in the last two months it has been 100%.

几乎从一开始我就在开发这个版本，代理加速接近 100%，在过去两个月里一直是 100%。

I have not written-

我没有写过——

Really?

真的吗？

…

……

15:43 any of the code that’s shipped in Quattro by hand.

Quattro 中手动发送的任何代码。

I’ve reviewed the shape of all of it.

我已经回顾了所有这些的形状。

I’ve reviewed the individual lines of anything that’s critical in the model layer of the system, and I’ve not looked at a bunch of the UI code.

我已经审查了系统模型层中所有关键内容的各个行，但没有查看一堆 UI 代码。

I have not looked at a bunch of the auxiliary code, and I’ve not written any of the new functionality entirely by hand.

我没有看过一堆辅助代码，也没有完全手工编写任何新功能。

But then the web part, actually evolving Basecamp and Hey, our professional products that have lots of users and are relatively large code bases, have proven surprisingly tricky to fully accelerate with agents.

但 Web 部分，实际上是不断发展的 Basecamp 和 Hey，我们拥有大量用户且代码库相对较大的专业产品，事实证明，要通过代理完全加速是非常困难的。

We just released Basecamp 5 not too long ago.

不久前我们刚刚发布了 Basecamp 5。

That was the first product at 37signals that was really agent accelerated.

这是 37signals 的第一个真正由代理加速的产品。

Because we were in this final sprint phase from around February.

因为我们从二月份左右就进入了最后的冲刺阶段。

By then, agents were already good.

那时，代理人已经很好了。

16:44 And we had this early surge of, “It’s solved.

我们一开始就有这样的想法：“问题解决了。

We can just have the designers do the programming.

我们可以让设计师来进行编程。

They know what features they want.

他们知道自己想要什么功能。

They know what shape they want it to take.

他们知道他们想要它采取什么形状。

Let them vibe.” And we let them vibe.

让他们产生共鸣。”我们让他们产生共鸣。

And we ended up with a lot of PRs that individually perhaps could have been justified for a hot moment, but taken all together, destroyed the architecture of the system.

我们最终得到了很多 PR，这些 PR 单独来看可能在热门时刻是合理的，但总的来说，破坏了系统的架构。

And we actually had to clean up manually, mop it up by hand, by human hand, to get back to an architecture that felt cohesive and coherent.

事实上，我们必须手动清理，用手拖地，用人的手，才能回到一个感觉有凝聚力和连贯性的建筑。

So we still have a bit of that– that was February, by the way.

所以我们仍然有一些这样的事情——顺便说一下，那是二月。

Things are quite different now.

现在情况已经大不相同了。

Well, hold on a second.

好吧，请稍等。

17:25 What’s the lesson from that?

从中得到什么教训？

Is one of the lessons from that that you have to be a programmer at this stage to be able to vibe code?

从中得到的教训之一是，在这个阶段你必须成为一名程序员才能感受到代码吗？

To be able to vibe code on existing substantial-

为了能够在现有的实体上振动代码-

I see.

我明白了。

…

……

17:38 code bases, even if they’re crud, if you wanna retain the element of architecture that got that system to where it was.

代码库，即使它们很粗糙，如果你想保留使系统达到原来状态的架构元素。

Now, that’s also a point where I’ve stressed many times that when people accuse vibe coders of being slob generators, I go right back at them and say, “Have you looked at the average programmer’s output?” That is some other slob too.

现在，这也是我多次强调的一点，当人们指责氛围程序员是懒惰的生成器时，我会立即回过头问他们，“你看过普通程序员的输出吗？”那也是一些其他的懒汉。

If you’ve looked at behind the scenes of many great companies and what their code bases look like after there’s been 3,000 humans through them, they’re awful.

如果你了解过许多伟大公司的幕后情况，以及他们的代码库在 3,000 名员工使用后的样子，你会发现它们非常糟糕。

Absolutely awful.

绝对可怕。

Can you tell me the intuition you have?

你能告诉我你的直觉吗？

18:14 I seem to—just stepping back and observing the different apps that we all rely on, I don’t know, Adobe Photoshop, all this kind of stuff—there seems to be…

我似乎——只是退后一步，观察我们都依赖的不同应用程序，我不知道，Adobe Photoshop，所有这些东西——似乎……

the progress on development there has not accelerated.

那里的发展进展并没有加快。

So why is it, what lessons can you draw from Basecamp, like well-established, huge user base?

那么为什么会这样，你可以从 Basecamp 中吸取什么教训，比如完善的、庞大的用户群呢？

Why aren’t we seeing, like, super rapid increase in, like, new updates, features, all this kind of stuff in these well-established apps?

为什么我们在这些成熟的应用程序中没有看到新的更新、功能以及所有此类内容的超快速增长？

Multiple reasons.

多种原因。

18:44 I’ll start with the first one that’s the most critical.

我将从最关键的第一个开始。

As soon as you’re having human teams work together on something, the bottleneck is rarely implementation.

一旦你让人类团队一起工作某件事，瓶颈很少会出现在实施上。

It’s human bandwidth and communication.

这是人类的带宽和沟通。

When you have a product manager and a couple of designers and a VP above them and a CTO above them, and everyone wants to be part of the shaping process because we’re all justifying why we’re here, that’s where all the productivity goes to die.

当你有一名产品经理、几名设计师、一名副总裁和一名首席技术官时，每个人都想成为塑造过程的一部分，因为我们都在证明我们在这里的理由，那就是所有生产力都会消亡的地方。

The revelation I’ve had working on Omarchy the last three months is that to get that magical 10X, 100X, in a few rare cases, 1000X productivity boost, you have to interact with the agents directly, and you cannot intermediate that bandwidth with another human because it’s simply too slow.

过去三个月我在 Omarchy 工作中得到的启示是，要获得神奇的 10 倍、100 倍（在极少数情况下）甚至 1000 倍的生产力提升，你必须直接与代理交互，并且你无法与另一个人协调该带宽，因为它太慢了。

19:49 And on the one hand, that’s a bit of a bummer.

一方面，这有点令人失望。

I mean, I like humans, and it’s great to work together.

我的意思是，我喜欢人类，一起工作真是太好了。

But it also means we need to temper our expectations with what these agents can do if it’s humans driving it, and you have three layers of approval and all the other machinery of a large corporation.

但这也意味着我们需要调整我们的期望，如果是人类驾驶的话，这些代理可以做什么，并且你拥有三层批准和大公司的所有其他机制。

The implementation part is only a small segment of it.

实现部分只是其中的一小部分。

The other thing I’d say is that most organizations don’t know what they want.

我要说的另一件事是，大多数组织都不知道自己想要什么。

They don’t know how to make it better.

他们不知道如何让它变得更好。

They’re not bottlenecked on implementation.

他们在实施方面没有遇到瓶颈。

They’re bottlenecked on ideas.

他们在想法上遇到了瓶颈。

They’re bottlenecked on vision.

他们在视力方面遇到了瓶颈。

They’re bottlenecked on taste.

他们在口味上遇到了瓶颈。

And if you don’t have those elements in excess of your implementational capacity, it doesn’t help.

如果这些要素没有超出你的实施能力，那就没有帮助。

So you can make a lot of shitty ideas come true, then what?

所以你可以让很多糟糕的想法变成现实，然后呢？

Are you gonna ship that?

你要运送那个吗？

20:46 That sounds like, I don’t know, something coming out of Microsoft.

我不知道，这听起来像是来自微软的东西。

That’s not what we’re trying to replicate here.

这不是我们想要在这里复制的。

That process is not actually…

这个过程实际上并不是……

Because we already had this.

因为我们已经有了这个。

If you step back for a moment and think of the towering organizations we have who have had tens of thousands of programmers at their disposal.

如果你退后一步，想想我们拥有数以万计的程序员的庞大组织。

I mean, I’m picking on Microsoft here.

我的意思是，我在这里选择微软。

I love Microsoft some of the time, but I’ll pick on them in this case because they have had endless resources, endless programming capacity for decades, right?

我有时喜欢微软，但在这种情况下我会选择他们，因为他们几十年来拥有无尽的资源、无尽的编程能力，对吗？

This is what’s showing us that just being able to write a lot of code does not produce great compelling software.

这向我们表明，仅仅能够编写大量代码并不能产生引人注目的软件。

Now, the other thing is we’ve had this capacity for about six months.

现在，另一件事是我们已经拥有这种能力大约六个月了。

That’s not very long in human life cycle capacity of internalizing what’s going on.

在人类生命周期内化正在发生的事情的能力中，这并不是很长。

21:40 And I think it’s actually funny that the critique of AI is, why isn’t it going faster?

我认为对人工智能的批评实际上很有趣，为什么它不能发展得更快？

What are you talking about?

你在说什么？

We’ve not had any other form of progress that has moved as fast as AI, and you’re impatient because in the last three months we haven’t rewritten the whole world and made it a utopia of software goodness?

我们还没有任何其他形式的进步像人工智能一样快，并且您不耐烦，因为在过去的三个月里我们还没有重写整个世界并使其成为软件善良的乌托邦？

You’re basically saying everybody should be switching to Linux now.

你基本上是说现在每个人都应该转向 Linux。

21:59 One of the arguments is, like, we can rewrite all the software that’s not available in Linux in Linux.

争论之一是，我们可以在 Linux 中重写所有 Linux 中不可用的软件。

Linux has been the love of my life for many years, but one of the reasons I’m still attached to Windows and now Mac is because of video editing, Premiere.

多年来，Linux 一直是我一生的挚爱，但我仍然迷恋 Windows 和 Mac 的原因之一是因为视频编辑、Premiere。

We’re gonna fix that.

我们会解决这个问题。

22:15 But-

但是——

So the question is, who’s gonna build Premiere and Photoshop for Linux?

所以问题是，谁来为 Linux 构建 Premiere 和 Photoshop？

22:17 And it feels like one person can now.

感觉现在一个人可以了。

100% one person can.

100%一个人可以。

And so, and I’m allowed to be impatient.

所以，我可以不耐烦。

22:28 In fact, me or anyone else, impatience is the first step of doing it yourself, right?

其实无论我还是任何人，不耐烦都是自己动手的第一步，对吧？

Like-

就像-

Correct.

正确。

…

……

22:40 and there’s a community of tens of thousands of people that use Adobe Premiere or DaVinci, all these non-linear video editors, that know the frustrations.

还有一个由数以万计的用户组成的社区，他们使用 Adobe Premiere 或 DaVinci 这些非线性视频编辑器，他们知道其中的挫败感。

Everybody shares them.

每个人都分享它们。

You can look at Reddit.

你可以看看Reddit。

You can look at the forums.

你可以看看论坛。

Everybody knows it.

每个人都知道。

I don’t know what it is.

我不知道那是什么。

It may be the management.

这可能是管理层。

It may be the meetings.

可能是会议。

All the things you’ve always discussed is the bureaucracy that’s inside companies that’s slowing everything down in the development of features.

你一直讨论的所有事情都是公司内部的官僚主义，它拖慢了功能开发的速度。

But it feels like there– if you just let some of the developers loose with a bunch of agents, you can fix all that.

但感觉就在那里——如果你让一些开发人员与一群代理一起放松，你就可以解决所有问题。

23:13 But again, based on everything you’re saying, maybe the way to do that is to start over from scratch, maybe through open source, or somebody launches a new company, that within large companies now it’s hard to really accelerate into the agentic era by letting developers just build.

但同样，根据你所说的一切，也许要做到这一点的方法是从头开始，也许通过开源，或者有人创办一家新公司，现在在大公司内部，很难通过让开发人员直接构建来真正加速进入代理时代。

This is the classic innovator’s dilemma.

这是典型的创新者困境。

23:33 These companies have gotten so good, so established at the old way, and therefore their entire structure, management layers, processes are tuned for a time that no longer exists.

这些公司已经变得如此优秀，如此以旧的方式建立起来，因此他们的整个结构、管理层、流程都被调整以适应一个不再存在的时代。

But you can’t pivot that.

但你不能改变这一点。

These are super tankers.

这些是超级油轮。

It just doesn’t happen.

它只是不会发生。

This is why we’re finally getting this upset in the technology industry.

这就是为什么我们最终在科技行业感到不安。

For a while, I was very upset about the duopoly between Apple and Google on mobile, because it felt like mobile was the most important computing platform that we had, and I could not see a path to unseat either Google or Apple sitting on top of that, controlling everything, taking their toll booth money.

有一段时间，我对苹果和谷歌在移动领域的双头垄断感到非常不安，因为感觉移动是我们拥有的最重要的计算平台，而我看不出有什么办法可以取代谷歌或苹果，控制一切，拿走他们的收费站钱。

But the game has changed.

但游戏已经改变了。

This is no longer the most important platform.

这不再是最重要的平台。

24:32 Mobile phones are important, but there’s also a lot of other form factors coming, whether it’s glasses or it’s earpieces or whatever else have you.

手机很重要，但还有很多其他形式的因素即将出现，无论是眼镜、耳机还是其他任何你拥有的东西。

It’s all in play now, but the computing platforms themselves are in play for the first time in probably 40 years, if you look at the desktop.

现在一切都在发挥作用，但如果你看看桌面，计算平台本身可能是 40 年来第一次发挥作用。

Linux has been around since ’91.

Linux 从 91 年就已经出现了。

It’s not taken off or taken over on the desktop.

它不会在桌面上被删除或接管。

It’s taken over everything else.

它接管了其他一切。

All the devices you have on your desk, your fridge, your toaster, everything runs Linux except for your computer.

你办公桌上的所有设备、冰箱、烤面包机，除了你的电脑之外，一切都运行 Linux。

Now, funnily enough, your Android is actually Linux, but wrapped so sufficiently that you can’t really recognize it.

现在，有趣的是，你的 Android 实际上是 Linux，但包装得非常充分，以至于你无法真正识别它。

But now there’s an opening, and the opening is exactly as you say it.

但现在有一个空缺，而且这个空缺正如你所说的那样。

25:21 If there’s a piece of software you depended on that bound you to Windows, it is completely within reach for you personally to start rewriting it.

如果您依赖的某个软件将您与 Windows 绑定在一起，那么您个人完全可以开始重写它。

And maybe you won’t get to 100% coverage, but this is the old joke about Microsoft Office.

也许你无法达到 100% 的覆盖率，但这是关于 Microsoft Office 的老笑话。

“I only use 5%.” Yeah, well, we all use a different 5%.

“我只用了5%。”是的，我们都使用不同的 5%。

Well, what if we all just build our own 5%?

那么，如果我们都只建立自己的 5% 呢？

What if I just took the functionality that I need and just did that?

如果我只获取我需要的功能并执行该操作会怎样？

That is a completely different challenge and one agents are incredibly capable of doing right now today, and I’ve done it a lot of times over.

这是一个完全不同的挑战，今天有一个特工非常有能力做到这一点，而且我已经做过很多次了。

So one of the amazing things I’ve found with the latest agent engaged is I have become a polyglot programmer, something I was absolutely not before.

因此，我在最新聘用的代理中发现的令人惊奇的事情之一是，我已经成为一名多语言程序员，这是我以前绝对不是的。

I was a Ruby programmer- …

我是一名 Ruby 程序员 - ...

first and foremost, and then I dabbled a little bit in Bash-

首先也是最重要的，然后我涉足了一点 Bash——

26:17 …

……

when I had to.

当我不得不这样做的时候。

And in the last two months, I’ve written C++.

在过去的两个月里，我编写了 C++。

I’ve written three applications that have shipped in Omarchy Quattro.

我已经编写了三个应用程序，并已在 Omarchy Quattro 中发布。

I wrote a writing app.

我写了一个写作应用程序。

I was using this app called Typora, which is a very nice app-

我正在使用这个名为 Typora 的应用程序，这是一个非常好的应用程序 -

Great, great app

太棒了，很棒的应用程序

…

……

26:33 which in itself is based on another app called iA Writer, which was my real love on the Mac- …

它本身是基于另一个名为 iA Writer 的应用程序，这是我在 Mac 上真正的最爱 - ...

for a clean, simple Markdown writing environment.

一个干净、简单的 Markdown 写作环境。

That’s where I write all my essays.

那是我写所有论文的地方。

26:45 And then I moved to Linux, and I couldn’t get iA Writer, so I moved over to this other tool called Typora.

然后我转向 Linux，但无法获得 iA Writer，所以我转向了另一个名为 Typora 的工具。

It was a piece of shareware, and it had a lot of features I just didn’t need.

它是一个共享软件，有很多我不需要的功能。

And about six weeks, seven weeks ago, I thought, “Do you know what?

大约六周、七周前，我想，“你知道吗？

I only need 5% of Typora,” which is already a basic app.

我只需要 Typora 的 5%，”这已经是一个基本的应用程序了。

I literally told the agent to get going, that I wanted it written in C++ and Qt, because that would fit well with the aesthetic of what I was building with Quattro.

我确实告诉代理开始吧，我希望用 C++ 和 Qt 编写它，因为这非常符合我用 Quattro 构建的美感。

And in, I think, about 20 minutes, it had the first version.

我想，大约 20 分钟后，它就有了第一个版本。

I started using it, and it wasn’t quite right.

我开始使用它，但它不太正确。

Within two days, I’d given up Typora, and I wrote and have written all of my essays since that moment in Omawrite.

两天之内，我就放弃了 Typora，从那一刻起我所有的文章都是在 Omawrite 上写的。

Can I ask for your advice and your vision about something?

我可以征求你的建议和你对某件事的看法吗？

27:30 So what I find with agents, you can actually write something like a replacement for Typora that is perfectly customized to you, to your needs- …

所以我在代理中发现，你实际上可以编写一些东西，比如 Typora 的替代品，它是根据你的需求完美定制的——……

with just one user in mind.

只考虑一位用户。

And then there’s a version of that that starts with one user in mind but expands to a larger audience.

还有一个版本，从一个用户开始，但扩展到更多的受众。

So I’ve actually written a large number of software just for me, and I find it easier to do and better to get my situation done.

所以我实际上已经为我自己编写了大量的软件，而且我发现它更容易完成，而且更好地完成我的情况。

For example, I have a video editor I’ve written, which is very easy to do just for me.

例如，我有一个自己编写的视频编辑器，这对我来说非常容易做到。

28:06 I’ve never, unlike you, built something that’s used by a large number of people, and I find that a bit scary and intimidating.

与你不同，我从来没有构建过被很多人使用的东西，我觉得这有点可怕和令人生畏。

So, like, at this, with this agentic age, how do you take a step to actually build something that solves your problem, which I think is a beautiful way to build, but also expand it to actually useful for other people?

所以，在这个代理时代，你如何采取步骤来实际构建一些解决你的问题的东西，我认为这是一种美丽的构建方式，但也将其扩展为对其他人真正有用？

Like, is there advice you can give, and do you also see the problem of how easy it is to just build a tool for yourself?

比如，您可以提供什么建议吗？您是否也看到了为自己构建一个工具是多么容易的问题？

Yes, but it is simpler than you think.

是的，但它比你想象的要简单。

28:35 By the time you’re done building the tool for yourself, you simply tell your agent to put it on GitHub.

当您自己构建完该工具后，您只需告诉您的代理将其放在 GitHub 上即可。

You don’t even have to do anything else.

你甚至不需要做任何其他事情。

It will figure out how to put that repo on GitHub.

它将弄清楚如何将该存储库放在 GitHub 上。

It’ll write a nice README.

它会写一个很好的自述文件。

It’ll start using GitHub releases so that you can track things.

它将开始使用 GitHub 版本，以便您可以跟踪事情。

It’ll actually be a better software maintainer than you could ever be- …

它实际上会成为比你更好的软件维护者——……

because it is far more patient, it is far more diligent in doing the drudgery of managing open source software than you are.

因为它比你更有耐心，在管理开源软件的苦差事上也比你勤奋得多。

29:05 And you can simply get on with the joy of using the software that you built and evolving it as you see fit.

您可以继续享受使用您构建的软件的乐趣，并根据您认为合适的方式对其进行改进。

Now, this gets into the big argument we’ve been having in open source for a while.

现在，这成为我们在开源领域一段时间以来一直存在的争论。

Are AI contributions good or bad for the maintainer?

人工智能的贡献对于维护者来说是好事还是坏事？

There’s a lot of maintainers right now who are quite upset about the fact that they’re suddenly getting a huge influx of pull requests, of contributions from people who may not be the best programmers or programmers at all- …

现在有很多维护者对他们突然收到大量拉取请求感到非常不安，这些请求来自可能不是最好的程序员或根本不是程序员的人的贡献......

towards their software.

对他们的软件。

I look at that argument and go, “Are you kidding me?” Here is a vein of free contributions that you can take or don’t take, but you’re complaining about the fact that they’re there?

我看着这个论点，然后说道：“你在开玩笑吗？”这里有一系列免费贡献，你可以接受也可以不接受，但你却抱怨它们的存在？

It sounds straight out of- My steak is too juicy and my lobster too buttery.

听起来很直接——我的牛排太多汁，我的龙虾太黄油。

What are you complaining about?

你在抱怨什么？

30:07 This is the most amazing thing.

这是最奇妙的事。

This is what we proclamated for so long was going to be the magic of open source, that we could all contribute to it, but it was, of course, never true.

这就是我们长期以来宣称的开源的魔力，我们都可以为它做出贡献，但当然，这从来都不是真的。

There was only a small subset of people who contribute to open source, and that was the very highly skilled wizards.

只有一小部分人为开源做出了贡献，那就是技术非常高超的奇才。

So this is a bit of a reformation moment.

所以这是一个改革的时刻。

We had this disintermediation between us and the computer, and it was this class of clerics and priests called programmers, and suddenly they’re being disintermediated here by was it the 95 theses by Luther in 1500s, nailing them to the door?

我们和计算机之间存在这种脱媒，就是这一类被称为程序员的神职人员和牧师，突然之间，他们被脱媒了，是1500年代路德的95条论纲，把他们钉在了门上吗？

And one of those was very clearly about the intermediation, that you should have direct access to the higher intelligence.

其中之一非常明确地涉及中介，即你应该能够直接接触到更高的智慧。

But don’t you need the wizards to keep a high bar of excellence in the code base?

但是您不需要向导来保持代码库的高品质吗？

100% you do, which is also something that’s always been true about open source, which is the second argument that really grinds me.

100% 你这样做，这也是开源的一贯真理，这是真正让我苦恼的第二个论点。

30:56 I’ve been running open source projects for 25 years.

我运行开源项目已有 25 年了。

I have literally looked at the output of thousands, if not tens of thousands of programmers.

我确实查看了数千名（如果不是数万名）程序员的输出。

I feel like I have the statistical basis to assert that most programmers, they suck.

我觉得我有统计基础来断言大多数程序员都很糟糕。

And I don’t mean that in the way it sounds.

我的意思并不是听起来那样。

31:24 That was why I paused for a hot second here.

这就是为什么我在这里停了下来。

I mean, they suck in the sense that they don’t write the code I want to have written.

我的意思是，他们很糟糕，因为他们没有编写我想编写的代码。

They don’t prepare their bug reports with all the relevant information.

他们没有准备包含所有相关信息的错误报告。

They don’t detail their pull requests with the why.

他们没有详细说明拉取请求的原因。

They don’t bother to fill in needed code comments.

他们懒得填写所需的代码注释。

They don’t double-check their work.

他们不会仔细检查自己的工作。

They don’t write unit tests.

他们不编写单元测试。

They don’t do all of these things it takes to create good software.

他们并没有完成创建优秀软件所需的所有事情。

But do you know who’ll do all that stuff?

但你知道谁会做所有这些事情吗？

Agents, if you tell them to.

特工，如果你告诉他们的话。

They’re very diligent at following your instructions, most of the time, sometimes to a fault.

大多数时候，他们非常勤奋地遵循你的指示，有时甚至会犯错。

But it actually means that if you take the median programmer and their pull requests towards an average open source project, they’re already getting outclassed by agents.

但这实际上意味着，如果你将中位数程序员及其对普通开源项目的拉取请求考虑在内，那么他们已经被代理超越了。

32:11 I would rather get an agent-written pull request to one of my projects than I’d get one written by a human, and it’s not just because the quality’s better.

我宁愿让我的项目收到一份由代理编写的拉取请求，也不愿收到由人类编写的拉取请求，这不仅仅是因为质量更好。

It’s also because I feel a lot less bad if I just reject it.

这也是因为如果我拒绝它，我会感觉不那么糟糕。

You didn’t even write it, so I can simply look at what your agent wrote on your behalf and go, “Eh, don’t want it.” That’s always been true in open source, and in fact, I think this is one of the problems with open source maintainers.

你甚至都没有写，所以我可以简单地看看你的经纪人代表你写的内容，然后说：“呃，不想要它。”这在开源领域一直都是如此，事实上，我认为这是开源维护者面临的问题之一。

They have way too much ball of neuroticism and anxiety that requires them to look upon any contribution as an obligation on their part to do everything to get that to land in the code base.

他们有太多的神经质和焦虑，这要求他们将任何贡献视为自己的义务，尽一切努力将其纳入代码库。

That’s not true at all.

这根本不是真的。

33:00 You can simply say, “No,” or even better, you can say, “No thank you.” And if you get into the mode of realizing that your project is allowed to exist and evolve according to your vision, according to your roadmap, it becomes so much easier in the agentic age to decline the contributions you don’t want because you don’t even inconvenience or hurt the feelings of a human.

你可以简单地说“不”，或者更好的是，你可以说“不，谢谢”。如果你意识到你的项目可以根据你的愿景、根据你的路线图存在和发展，那么在代理时代，拒绝你不想要的贡献就会变得容易得多，因为你甚至不会带来不便或伤害人类的感情。

It’s just a clanker, and the clanker won’t mind.

这只是一个叮当声，叮当声不会介意。

In fact, the producers of clankers, the labs, love when you spend tokens in vain.

事实上，《clanker》的制作者、实验室很喜欢你白白花费代币。

They get paid just the same.

他们得到的报酬是一样的。

So, in my opinion, this is the absolute best time to ever have been an open source software maintainer.

因此，在我看来，这绝对是成为开源软件维护者的最佳时机。

33:46 Not only do we get this wealth of glorious pull requests made by agents with all the boxes ticked, we also get to tap into a creativity of people who did not have access to contribute to a project before.

我们不仅得到了代理人提出的大量光荣的拉取请求，而且我们还可以挖掘以前无法为项目做出贡献的人们的创造力。

I’ve been running the Omarchy project now for a little over a year, and in the last three months working on Quattro, I have merged over 1,000 pull requests.

我运行 Omarchy 项目已经一年多了，在过去三个月的 Quattro 工作中，我合并了 1,000 多个拉取请求。

Quite a lot of those pull requests were written by people who were not classical programmers, or were programmers in other domains, not Linux operating system or distribution development.

其中相当多的拉取请求是由非传统程序员或其他领域的程序员编写的，而不是 Linux 操作系统或发行版开发的程序员。

They were able to contribute their good ideas because of agents, and I got to cherry-pick the very best of that-

由于代理商的帮助，他们能够贡献自己的好想法，而我必须挑选其中最好的-

34:32 …

……

because it was there.

因为它就在那里。

Otherwise, those ideas would just have lived inside their heads.

否则，这些想法就会一直存在于他们的脑海中。

Again, is that not the purpose of open source, that we tap into the collective intelligence and creativity of the whole goddamn planet, and we channel that towards a commons where we all benefit from the combined efforts of everyone?

再说一次，这不是开源的目的吗？我们利用整个该死的星球的集体智慧和创造力，并将其引导到一个公共领域，让我们都从每个人的共同努力中受益？

Now, there’s currently, I think, about 400 unmerged pull requests on Omarchy, about double what it was a week ago.

现在，我认为 Omarchy 上目前大约有 400 个未合并的 Pull 请求，大约是一周前的两倍。

So the acceleration is real, but so are the tools.

因此，加速是真实的，但工具也是如此。

I’m not reviewing every pull request anymore.

我不再审查每个拉取请求。

I haven’t been reviewing them for quite some time now.

我已经有一段时间没有评论它们了。

I have the agents- …

我有代理人-...

review them for me- …

帮我回顾一下——……

and then they will give me a summary about whether something is ready for the decision, the human decision.

然后他们会给我一个总结，说明某些事情是否已经准备好做出决定，即人类的决定。

Should we merge or should we not merge?

我们应该合并还是不应该合并？

35:25 I don’t need to look at all the pull requests that are either wrong, duplicated, bad.

我不需要查看所有错误、重复或错误的拉取请求。

An agent can sort that chaff away from me.

特工可以帮我把这些废话清除掉。

I just get to look at the pearls- …

我只是来看看珍珠-...

the good ideas that are ready to go, the bug fixes that the agent has validated in a VM on my behalf.

准备好的好主意，代理已代表我在虚拟机中验证的错误修复。

All the drudgery of replicating and managing open source projects is evaporating at lightning speed, and we are left with the golden juicy parts, the bone marrow of software development- …

复制和管理开源项目的所有苦差事都以闪电般的速度消失，我们留下了金黄多汁的部分，软件开发的骨髓——……

deciding what should this thing do and where should it go?

决定这个东西应该做什么以及应该去哪里？

Do you think the good ideas, ultimately the kernel of the good ideas originated in the human mind, so the individual contributors Like, can it be done by agents, or is the PR ultimately requires a human idea?

您认为好创意，最终好创意的内核源于人类的思想，那么个人贡献者之类的，可以由代理商来做吗，还是PR最终需要人类的想法？

36:03 Like how to improve Omarchy, all those incoming…

比如如何改进 Omarchy，所有即将到来的……

Or can it all just be a pool of agents?

或者这一切都可以只是一个代理池吗？

That was the mode and the way I was thinking about agents in the first agentic age from November 24 to February 28.

这就是我在 11 月 24 日至 2 月 28 日的第一个代理时代思考代理的模式和方式。

36:24 I thought all the ideas would originate with the humans.

我认为所有的想法都源于人类。

They would tell their agents what to build, and off they went.

他们会告诉他们的代理人要建造什么，然后他们就出发了。

I don’t think that’s true anymore at all.

我认为这已经不再是真的了。

I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe, ideas coming out of models so great that it makes me humble- …

我看到了你们人们无法相信的事情，从模型中产生的想法是如此伟大，以至于让我感到谦卑——……

as a person who otherwise prides himself on having good ideas.

作为一个以拥有好主意而自豪的人。

The agents are incredibly capable of creative thought, and folks who are still stuck in the analysis that agents are parrots- …

代理人具有令人难以置信的创造性思维能力，而那些仍然坚持认为代理人是鹦鹉学舌的人——……

just regurgitating the ideas that are already there, are delusional about the progress that’s been made in the last six to nine months.

只是重复已经存在的想法，对过去六到九个月所取得的进展产生了妄想。

So some people listening to you right now will say DHH is suffering from the old case of AI psychosis.

所以现在听你讲话的一些人会说 DHH 患有人工智能精神病的旧病。

37:21 Can you steel man the case that you are in fact experiencing in a state of delusion, like One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, and can you argue against it?

你能像《飞越疯人院》那样，面对自己实际上在妄想状态中经历的情况吗？你能反驳它吗？

I’m in a state of delirium.

我处于谵妄状态。

37:37 That’s the state I’m in.

这就是我现在的状态。

Because I have been working with computers for 40 years, and I’ve never seen the things that I’ve seen in just the last two months.

因为我和计算机打交道已经有40年了，我从来没有见过最近两个月所见的东西。

37:54 A whole career, a whole life dedicating to the love of computers as my main focus for the working hours and then some, suddenly completely upended, suddenly completely rewritten.

整个职业生涯，一生都致力于对计算机的热爱，作为我工作时间的主要关注点，然后有些突然完全颠覆，突然完全重写。

Of course I’m delirious.

当然我很神志不清。

Who looking at this reality is not?

谁不正视这个现实呢？

If you are not delirious or at the very least very excited…

如果你没有神志不清或者至少很兴奋……

Actually, I guess that’s not even true.

事实上，我想这根本不是真的。

If you’re not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that’s the delusion.

如果你没有认识到当下的严重性，那就是错觉。

That’s the psychosis.

这就是精神病。

The psychosis is believing that the world is barely different.

精神病相信世界几乎没有什么不同。

We just have some electronic parrots reciting things to us.

我们只是有一些电子鹦鹉给我们背诵。

Now, in my opinion, the reason this argument is actually brought up is because people are not able to see the fruits of the progress.

现在，我认为，之所以提出这个论点，实际上是因为人们看不到进步的成果。

That goes to your point earlier.

这就是你之前的观点。

Where is the amazing software?

这么神奇的软件在哪里？

38:49 Why isn’t American GDP running at 12% year over year?

为什么美国GDP同比增速没有达到12%？

First of all, give it a minute.

首先，请稍等一下。

It hasn’t even been a year, goddammit.

还不到一年，该死。

But second of all, I feel on my own account, I have actually brought the pudding.

但其次，我觉得我自己确实带来了布丁。

Omarchy Quattro launched on Friday.

Omarchy Quattro 于周五推出。

It’s been downloaded by tens of thousands of people.

它已被数万人下载。

And they like it.

他们喜欢它。

They like it a lot.

他们非常喜欢它。

We should mention that going to Perplexity here, Omarchy is a highly opinionated Arch Linux-based desktop distribution centered on the Hyprland Wayland tiling compositor.

我们应该提到 Perplexity，Omarchy 是一个高度固执的基于 Arch Linux 的桌面发行版，以 Hyprland Wayland 平铺合成器为中心。

39:17 It was created by David Heinemeier Hansson, DHH, as a polished developer workstation set up with a cohesive visual style and many everyday tools already configured.

它由 DHH 的 David Heinemeier Hansson 创建，是一个精美的开发人员工作站，具有连贯的视觉风格和许多已配置的日常工具。

Let me put it.

让我说一下。

39:39 Omarchy is a beautiful, modern, and opinionated Linux system.

Omarchy 是一个美丽、现代、固执己见的 Linux 系统。

It’s an alternative operating system to macOS and Windows, and it’s freaking amazing.

它是 macOS 和 Windows 的替代操作系统，而且非常神奇。

And the Quattro thing is you’re pushing towards the age of agents.

Quattro 的事情是你正在推动代理时代的到来。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

39:54 That’s the latest version that we just dropped out, which is also funny.

这是我们刚刚退出的最新版本，这也很有趣。

The Omarchy project is only a year old and a little bit.

Omarchy 项目只有一年的历史。

I started it last summer in between sessions at the 24 Hours of Le Mans-

我是去年夏天在勒芒 24 小时耐力赛间隙开始练习的——

40:08 …

……

where I had watched one too many YouTube videos on Linux Ricing and got bitten by that bug.

我在 Linux Ricing 上观看了太多 YouTube 视频，并被这个错误所困扰。

Started working on this second iteration of my attempt at creating a better Linux operating system.

开始尝试创建更好的 Linux 操作系统的第二次迭代。

The first iteration we talked about last time was called Omakub, was built on top of an existing system called Ubuntu, and it was fine.

我们上次谈到的第一个迭代称为 Omakub，它构建在名为 Ubuntu 的现有系统之上，而且效果很好。

But the ambition I was able to pour into the new version, Omarchy, because I started seven layers deeper down the stack, was completely different.

但我能够倾注到新版本 Omarchy 中的雄心壮志是完全不同的，因为我开始了堆栈更深的七层。

But it was still done in a pre-agentic world.

但这仍然是在前代理世界中完成的。

I wrote all those bash scripts by hand in the beginning, and then I got to see the midway point where things changed over.

我一开始就手工编写了所有这些 bash 脚本，然后我看到了事情发生变化的中间点。

40:52 I did a couple of versions of Omarchy that had partial agent acceleration, and then three months ago, it was full throttle, 100%, everything is written by agents but steered by me.

我做了几个 Omarchy 版本，它们有部分代理加速，然后三个月前，它是全速运转的，100%，一切都是由代理编写的，但由我引导。

And that just ended up being a very different experience and a very different operating system because I was suddenly granted a limitless ceiling on my ambition.

这最终成为一种非常不同的体验和一个非常不同的操作系统，因为我突然被赋予了我的野心的无限上限。

I could look at any feature in Windows, on Mac, on other Linux systems and say, “I want that,” and the agents would deliver.

我可以查看 Windows、Mac 或其他 Linux 系统中的任何功能，然后说“我想要这个”，然后代理就会提供。

So everything I wanted was suddenly within reach, which meant that I got a little delirious.

于是我想要的一切突然变得触手可及，这意味着我有点神志不清。

Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, “You can have whatever you want.

如果一个精灵突然从瓶子里跳出来，说：“你可以拥有任何你想要的东西，谁会不感到疯狂呢？

Every feature you’ve ever dreamed of in an operating system-

您在操作系统中梦想的每一个功能 -

41:47 …

……

I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it’s gonna take me two hours.”

我可以把它们送给你，大部分在五分钟内，少数在二十分钟内，如果我们真的疯狂的话，我需要两个小时。”

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

41:54 Have you seen Requiem for a Dream, the movie?

你看过电影《梦之安魂曲》吗？

So there’s a drug-like effect here.

所以这里有类似药物的效果。

I find it personally– We’ll talk about many levels of this, but it is overwhelming how much power is placed in our hands so suddenly, and it’s very hard to know, it’s like with “The Hobbit” or something, what to do with it, and I find myself truly overwhelmed with the multitasking on the verge of almost burnt out.

我个人认为——我们会讨论很多层面的问题，但突然间有多少权力交到我们手中，这是压倒性的，而且很难知道，就像《霍比特人》之类的，如何处理它，我发现自己真的被多任务处理压垮了，几乎快要精疲力尽了。

Super excited about so many things, but ultimately looking back, you want to focus on one thing and really ship.

对很多事情都超级兴奋，但最终回想起来，你想专注于一件事并真正实现。

I don’t have that sense.

我没有那种感觉。

42:31 I don’t have the sense of overwhelm.

我没有压倒性的感觉。

I don’t have the sense of dread.

我没有恐惧感。

I don’t have the sense of distortion because I have a mission.

我没有扭曲感，因为我有使命。

I’m going somewhere, and therefore, I can channel all this new power towards-

我要去某个地方，因此，我可以将所有这些新的力量引导到-

Yeah, it’s wonderful.

是的，太棒了。

a singular goal and outcome, creating the perfect computer.

单一的目标和结果，创造完美的计算机。

42:48 And therefore, all my investigations with AI are focused towards that end.

因此，我对人工智能的所有研究都集中在这个目标上。

Now, I also have a day job.

现在，我也有一份日常工作。

And we also use agents there, and that’s also targeted towards sort of specific outcomes.

我们也在那里使用代理，这也是针对特定结果的。

But with the Omarchy experience, I got to tap in straight in the back of my head and increase the bandwidth between ideas arriving in my brain and software emerging on the screen.

但有了 Omarchy 的经验，我可以直接在我的脑后进行挖掘，增加我大脑中的想法和屏幕上出现的软件之间的带宽。

It was like going from dial-up- …

这就像从拨号-...

to fiber.

到纤维。

I think on your podcast, Elon talked about the actual human bandwidth-

我想在你的播客上，埃隆谈到了实际的人类带宽——

43:35 …

……

that Neuralink and other projects are trying to accelerate.

Neuralink 和其他项目正在努力加速。

Like, the bandwidth we’re communicating over right now is quite low because we’re limited by our cognition.

就像，我们现在通信的带宽非常低，因为我们受到认知的限制。

We’re limited by the rate of speech.

我们受到语速的限制。

You’re not limited by those things when you’re working with a swarm of agents.

当您与一大群代理一起工作时，您就不会受到这些事情的限制。

Now, let me caveat this by saying, if I’d heard myself talk like this-

现在，让我警告一下，如果我听到自己这样说话——

44:03 nine months ago, I would probably have used the label AI psychosis.

九个月前，我可能会使用人工智能精神病这个标签。

I think it would be fitting because nine months ago when people were talking like this, they weren’t shipping, and I think that’s the ultimate difference, that there were people who saw this early.

我认为这很合适，因为九个月前，当人们这样谈论时，他们还没有发货，我认为这就是最终的区别，有人很早就看到了这一点。

I was not actually that early.

其实我没那么早。

As we’ve talked about, I was rather skeptical, and I was using AI in certain ways, but I was not the first person who downloaded Claude Code.

正如我们所讨论的，我相当怀疑，而且我以某些方式使用人工智能，但我不是第一个下载 Claude Code 的人。

I think Boris released that in end of February.

我认为鲍里斯在二月底发布了该消息。

I don’t think I installed Claude Code until September.

我想我直到 9 月份才安装了 Claude Code。

So there was about six months there where pioneers saw these glimmers of what the future was gonna look like.

因此，在大约六个月的时间里，先驱们看到了未来的曙光。

It wasn’t there yet because the intelligence wasn’t there.

它还不存在，因为情报还不存在。

The harnesses weren’t there, but they could see the glimmers.

安全带不在那里，但他们可以看到微光。

I couldn’t.

我不能。

44:48 Tobi, Tobi Lutke, the CEO of Shopify and now my partner in crime on this Omarchy project in part, he’s gotten pilled with Omarchy as well.

Tobi，Tobi Lutke，Shopify 的首席执行官，现在是我在这个 Omarchy 项目上的犯罪伙伴，他也被 Omarchy 所困扰。

He saw these things very early, and he tried to tell me, and I wasn’t seeing it.

他很早就看到了这些事情，并试图告诉我，但我没有看到。

I was not seeing what he was seeing.

我没有看到他所看到的。

You were a hater.

你是一个仇恨者。

Yes.

是的。

45:08 I was still on Earth.

我当时还在地球上。

And he was…

而他是……

He had already boarded the rocket and was heading towards space.

他已经登上了火箭，正朝着太空飞去。

I remember actually reading his memo to the company, the AI memo, and thinking, “Ah, seems a little much.” Like, you’re making a big deal out of something that I cannot yet feel is a tangible thing.

我记得我读过他给公司的备忘录，即人工智能备忘录，然后想，“啊，似乎有点多了。”就像，你把一些我还感觉不到有形的东西小题大做。

45:32 Because where’s the output of this?

因为这个的输出在哪里？

I try using it.

我尝试使用它。

It writes code I don’t like.

它写了我不喜欢的代码。

It wants to interrupt me all the time.

它总是想打扰我。

Where are you getting this from?

你从哪里得到这个？

So I get it.

所以我明白了。

I totally get it.

我完全明白了。

If you’ve not seen what the current quality of intelligence can produce, of course you’re gonna look at someone and go like, “They sound a little nutty,” because all your experience up until this point would tell you that they are nutty.

如果你还没有看到当前的智力质量可以产生什么，你当然会看着某人并说，“他们听起来有点疯狂”，因为到目前为止你的所有经验都会告诉你他们很疯狂。

Because if you look at the history of computer programming, for the last 40, 50 years, people have been promising that regular people could write code just by talking.

因为如果你回顾一下计算机编程的历史，在过去的 40、50 年里，人们一直承诺普通人只需通过交谈就可以编写代码。

We’re gonna have fourth generation languages.

我们将拥有第四代语言。

46:12 Lisp was once upon a time presented, Smalltalk was presented as these environments that would let regular people write their own applications, and none of it came true in the sense beyond, like, Microsoft Access databases or Excel spreadsheets.

Lisp 曾经被提出，Smalltalk 被提出作为这些环境，让普通人编写自己的应用程序，但除了 Microsoft Access 数据库或 Excel 电子表格之外，这一切都没有实现。

Those are end user programming environments, but it’s nothing like what we’re able to do now.

这些是最终用户编程环境，但这与我们现在能够做的完全不同。

And then, I mean, I’m not even talking about end user.

然后，我的意思是，我什至没有谈论最终用户。

I’m talking as me, someone who’s been programming for 25 years, seeing the output and the acceleration and the quality and then shipping it, and I think that’s what’s gonna change the entire conversation quite quickly.

我是在以我自己的身份说话，一个已经编程了 25 年的人，看到了输出、加速和质量，然后交付了它，我认为这将很快改变整个对话。

46:49 The few laggards who are still on the fence about whether this is actually useful, who are still trapped in a meme from early ’25 about mechanical parrots, they’re simply going to be overwhelmed by the evidence that’s about to flood over them.

少数落后者仍然对这是否真的有用持观望态度，他们仍然陷入 25 年初关于机械鹦鹉的迷因中，他们只会被即将淹没他们的证据所淹没。

So I hope to see projects like Omarchy, several of them that, like, really show agent first.

所以我希望看到像 Omarchy 这样的项目，其中有几个项目首先真正展示了代理。

It’s coming.

它来了。

47:15 All of it is coming.

这一切都即将到来。

In the spaces, in the silly spaces that I already mentioned, like video editing, all these kinds of apps that are like Typora- …

在我已经提到过的那些愚蠢的空间里，比如视频编辑，所有这些类型的应用程序，比如 Typora——……

47:17 this kind of stuff.

这种东西。

It’s gonna come, and I’ve already seen the early inklings of this.

它总会到来，我已经看到了它的早期迹象。

47:26 One of the really neat features about Omarchy is that it has a far more robust plugin system that allows you to extend your operating system and rewrite it really in terms of its user interface and its panels and its features by creating your own plugins that can be cloned off of tools we ship in the box.

Omarchy 真正巧妙的功能之一是它有一个更强大的插件系统，允许您扩展您的操作系统，并通过创建您自己的插件（可以从我们随附的工具克隆）来真正重写它的用户界面、面板和功能。

For example, say you want a different calendar.

例如，假设您想要不同的日历。

Omarchy ships with a calendar.

Omarchy 附带日历。

You click the little clock.

你点击小时钟。

It pops up a calendar, and it doesn’t have iCal support, for example.

例如，它会弹出一个日历，并且不支持 iCal。

It doesn’t consume your appointments.

它不会占用您的约会。

There’s about 17 implementations of that already, and in three days, we had 330 plugins on the Omarchy plugin marketplace.

已经有大约 17 个实现，三天之内，我们在 Omarchy 插件市场上就有了 330 个插件。

I have never seen growth like that with any project I’ve ever been involved in.

在我参与过的任何项目中，我从未见过这样的增长。

48:23 I’ve never seen participation that broadly.

我从未见过如此广泛的参与。

I’ve never seen that many people be able to create software that’s meaningful for them—also be usable for others so quickly.

我从来没有见过这么多人能够如此迅速地创建对他们有意义的软件，也可以供其他人使用。

All of it is driven by the fact that Omarchy ships a set of skills that tells any agent you bring to it how to create extensions to the operating system, and therefore affording you the vision of the true malleable…

所有这一切都是由以下事实驱动的：Omarchy 提供了一套技能，告诉您所使用的任何代理如何创建操作系统的扩展，从而为您提供真正可塑性的愿景……

I was about to say agentic.

我正想说代理。

I hate that fucking word.

我讨厌这个该死的词。

And the reason in part I hate that word is, first of all, it’s become marketing slop speak- …

我讨厌这个词的部分原因是，首先，它已经成为营销废话——……

at this point.

此时。

Like, it’s just slapped onto everything.

就像，它只是被打在所有东西上。

I wish we had a different word that just meant AI doing stuff.

我希望我们有一个不同的词来表示人工智能在做事。

Vibe coding feels wrong, too.

Vibe 编码也感觉不对劲。

It does, because vibe coding to me smells exactly like script kiddies did in the early 2000s.

确实如此，因为对我来说，vive 编码的味道与 2000 年代初期的脚本小子一模一样。

49:09 People applying PHP scripts they just downloaded offline that they don’t understand anything of.

人们应用他们刚刚离线下载的 PHP 脚本，但他们对此一无所知。

And while, I mean, that’s true in the sense that much of the vibe coding, including my own vibe coded projects, and as I just mentioned, I have several.

虽然，我的意思是，从很多振动编码的意义上来说这是正确的，包括我自己的振动编码项目，正如我刚才提到的，我有几个。

I’ve written things in C++.

我用 C++ 写过东西。

I’ve written things in Rust.

我用 Rust 写过东西。

Rust—I hate Rust with a passion.

Rust——我非常讨厌 Rust。

Rust to me is like pouring acid in my eyes when I have to look at the code.

对我来说，Rust 就像当我必须查看代码时向我的眼睛里倒入酸一样。

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

等等，等等，等等，等等。

49:42 Why do you hate Rust?

你为什么讨厌 Rust？

It is, in my opinion, the ugliest programming language-

在我看来，它是最丑陋的编程语言——

Oh

噢

…

……

49:46 that has been invented-

已经发明了——

Yeah

是啊

…

……

49:47 in probably the last 40 years.

大概是在过去 40 年里。

So it’s the opposite of Rails and Ruby.

所以它与 Rails 和 Ruby 相反。

It’s the opposite.

事实恰恰相反。

49:50 But-

但是——

You’ve written it

你已经写了

…

……

49:53 I’ve written applications in Rust because the output of Rust is actually amazing.

我用 Rust 编写了应用程序，因为 Rust 的输出实际上是惊人的。

The memory safety, the fact that it’s a system language, the fact that it’s highly efficient and so forth is incredible.

内存安全性、它是一种系统语言这一事实​​、它的高效性等等都是令人难以置信的。

So Rust, to me, can both be the most repugnant programming language ever devised for human consumption and a wonderful platform for agentic engineering.

因此，对我来说，Rust 既是有史以来为人类消费而设计的最令人反感的编程语言，又是代理工程的绝佳平台。

These two truths can coexist easily in my head.

这两个真理可以很容易地在我的脑海中共存。

Do you think that there can be a point at which we can just call agentic engineering programming?

您认为在某个时刻我们可以称之为代理工程编程吗？

50:24 Can we just change what programming means?

我们可以改变编程的含义吗？

‘Cause who’s actually going to be programming the old-school way in a few months?

因为几个月后谁会真正采用老式方式进行编程呢？

I don’t think we should reuse the term because for me, programming implies an understanding of certain primitives, loops, conditions, variables.

我认为我们不应该重复使用这个术语，因为对我来说，编程意味着理解某些原语、循环、条件、变量。

50:36 All the constructs of programming languages are what constitutes programming itself, not the creation of programs.

编程语言的所有结构都是编程本身的组成部分，而不是程序的创建。

Because you could say in the pre-agentic era, well, your CEO is programming.

因为你可以说，在前代理时代，你的首席执行官正在编程。

He’s hiring a bunch of programmers, he’s telling them what to do, and out comes software that he can sell.

他正在雇用一群程序员，告诉他们该做什么，然后开发出可以出售的软件。

51:05 Eh, I don’t think most people would call that CEO a programmer, and I don’t think we should call the vibe coder a programmer either.

呃，我不认为大多数人会称 CEO 为程序员，我也不认为我们应该称 vivi 程序员为程序员。

And vibe coding, if we define it here, is you tell an agent to build software for you.

如果我们在这里定义它，振动编码就是你告诉代理为你构建软件。

You do not look at the implementation.

你不看实现。

That, to me, is what separates vibe coding from programming or, let’s say, agent-accelerated development.

对我来说，这就是氛围编码与编程或代理加速开发的区别。

But don’t you think, so to push back a little bit, don’t you think a programmer, old-school programmer, you, doing agentic engineering is a different kind of agentic engineering than a non-programmer doing agentic engineering?

但是你不认为，所以退一步来说，你不认为程序员，老派程序员，你，做代理工程是一种不同于非程序员做代理工程的代理工程吗？

51:26 What I mean is, if you know what a for loop is, if you know what function programming is, if you know some of the basic good principles of software engineering, the way you do natural language-based agentic engineering will be different and more systematic, and the scale and the variety of things you can actually build is much bigger than a vibe coder.

我的意思是，如果你知道什么是 for 循环，如果你知道什么是函数编程，如果你知道软件工程的一些基本良好原则，那么你进行基于自然语言的代理工程的方式将会有所不同，并且更加系统化，并且你实际可以构建的东西的规模和种类比 vibe 编码器大得多。

I’m just gonna extend the pro case here a little bit just for the sake of the argument.

为了便于论证，我将在这里稍微扩展一下专业案例。

Right.

正确的。

I actually think for a while it was to my deficit to know as much as I know about programming because I was instructing the agents to do things as I prescribed them to do, and they were very good at that.

事实上，有一段时间，我认为对编程的了解是我的不足，因为我指导代理人按照我规定的方式做事，而他们非常擅长这一点。

52:07 And in the first agentic moment, let’s not call it an era, it was something that lasted three, three months.

在第一个代理时刻，我们不要称之为一个时代，它持续了三三个月。

Moment…

瞬间……

In the first agentic moment, that felt very productive.

在第一个代理时刻，这感觉非常富有成效。

I could get more productivity out of telling the agents what to do in the way I would’ve done it, and I used all of my experience as a programmer to do just that.

通过按照我的方式告诉代理该做什么，我可以获得更高的生产力，并且我利用了我作为程序员的所有经验来做到这一点。

Then I was a little late on the next moment, and the next moment allowed me, allowed anyone, to describe outcomes- …

然后我下一刻就晚了一点，下一刻就允许我，允许任何人，描述结果——……

to describe problems to the agents and get better solutions than if you had a programmer prescribe the path.

向代理描述问题并获得比让程序员指定路径更好的解决方案。

See, okay, so we’re having fun arguing here.

瞧，好吧，所以我们在这里争论得很开心。

53:05 Well, so are you suggesting that there’s problems for which programmers are worse than non-programmers at agentic engineering?

那么，您是否认为在代理工程中，程序员比非程序员更难解决一些问题？

100%.

100%。

53:16 And the reason I say that, let’s define it here.

我这么说的原因是，让我们在这里定义它。

The reason I say that is there’s a lot of programmers who are not very good product managers.

我这么说的原因是有很多程序员并不是很好的产品经理。

Software is product management.

软件就是产品管理。

What should it do?

它应该做什么？

Who should it do it for?

应该为谁做？

How should it do it?

应该怎么做呢？

How should it look?

它应该是什么样子？

What’s our priorities?

我们的首要任务是什么？

What do we start with first?

我们首先从什么开始？

What does version one include?

第一版包含哪些内容？

All of those skills are not easily or equally distributed across all programmers.

所有这些技能并不容易或平等地分配给所有程序员。

And in the agentic era where you are letting an agent, an AI, do the implementation, these are the skills you need.

在代理时代，你让代理、人工智能来执行实施，这些都是你需要的技能。

And I happen to sit in both camps, and this is why I love this moment.

我碰巧同时属于这两个阵营，这就是我喜欢这一刻的原因。

53:58 I still get to live a little bit in the old world where I look at the full implementation because there are domains and areas where I feel that still brings value, and then I also live in the future.

我仍然会生活在旧世界中，在那里我会看到完整的实施，因为我觉得在某些领域和领域仍然会带来价值，然后我也生活在未来。

And as I said, when I created AmaWrite, I’ve not looked at a single line of that C++.

正如我所说，当我创建 AmaWrite 时，我没有看过 C++ 的任何一行。

I actually made it a point to myself that I was gonna treat it as an experiment.

事实上，我向自己明确表示，我要把它当作一个实验。

This is 100% a black box.

这100%是一个黑匣子。

I will treat it as though I was any other user who had opinions about how their digital typewriter should work, and therefore felt like it was a fair experiment as if a writer of any other sort who had opinions about how software should be done and how it should work.

我会把它当作任何其他用户，对他们的数字打字机应该如何工作有意见，因此感觉这是一个公平的实验，就像任何其他类型的作家对软件应该如何完成和如何工作有意见一样。

54:39 As you mentioned, video editors who know exactly where they don’t like what Adobe Premiere’s doing and how it could be better, but don’t have the capacities to improve it- …

正如您所提到的，视频编辑人员确切地知道他们不喜欢 Adobe Premiere 所做的事情以及它如何可以做得更好，但没有能力改进它 - ...

how that could be.

怎么会这样。

The pushback, though, I think what programmers do well, good programmers do well, is systematic design, like think in terms of systems- …

不过，我认为程序员做得好的、好的程序员做得好的，是系统设计，就像从系统角度思考一样——……

54:50 and rigor.

和严谨。

And I think still, and probably for a long time to come, even natural language-based control of agentic systems will require a certain kind of rigor.

我仍然认为，并且可能在未来很长一段时间内，即使是基于自然语言的代理系统控制也将需要某种严格性。

Not overly structured rigor, but really explain very specifically the goals of the system, how to do the verification, what kind of security testing.

没有过于严格的结构，而是非常具体地解释了系统的目标，如何进行验证，什么样的安全测试。

You wanna do all those kinds of things.

你想做所有这些事情。

Although then to push back on that, the system will…

尽管随后要反驳这一点，系统将……

should be smart longer term.

从长远来看应该是明智的。

I would’ve said the same thing six months ago.

六个月前我也会说同样的话。

Yeah, so this has changed.

是的，所以这已经改变了。

And I think the same thing would’ve been true six months ago.

我认为六个月前也是如此。

55:30 What I have found since, especially even just the last few weeks of the agentically accelerated development of Mach-E, is that more often than not, I have the humility to recognize that the agent knows best.

从那时起，尤其是在 Mach-E 代理加速开发的最后几周，我发现，我常常谦虚地认识到代理最了解。

You can legitimately say, “Make sure it’s secure.”

你可以理直气壮地说：“确保它是安全的。”

Correct.

正确的。

55:52 And it would know more about what that entails.

它会更多地了解这意味着什么。

Now, you’re laughing-

现在，你在笑——

What a crazy world.

多么疯狂的世界啊。

…

……

55:59 but it’s true.

但这是真的。

And in fact-

而事实上——

Oh my God.

天哪。

…

……

56:02 a good parallel to this is the AGENTS.md/CLAUDE.md files.

与此类似的是 AGENTS.md/CLAUDE.md 文件。

There was a hot moment where it was all the rage about micro-optimizing that.

曾经有一段时间，微优化风靡一时。

Oh, you tell your agent this-

哦，你告诉你的经纪人这个-

56:14 …

……

you tell your agent that, and you ended up with this huge file of instructions for your agent.

你告诉你的代理人，你最终会得到一份给你的代理人的巨大的说明文件。

One of the things that Boris, working on Claude Code, shared in an interview recently about Opus 5 was that the system prompt that they ship for Opus 5, and presumably also Fable, shrunk by 80% because the agent not only needed far less human instruction, it was actually being damaged by overly prescriptive humans.

参与 Claude Code 工作的 Boris 最近在一次有关 Opus 5 的采访中分享的一件事是，系统提示他们为 Opus 5 以及《神鬼寓言》发货的提示缩小了 80%，因为该代理不仅需要更少的人类指令，而且实际上会被过于规范的人类损坏。

And any programmer who’s had a pointy-haired boss knows exactly what that is like.

任何一个有过尖头发老板的程序员都知道那是什么样的。

When the boss walks into the room, doesn’t know anything, starts telling you how to program, how to code.

当老板走进房间时，什么都不懂，就开始告诉你如何编程，如何编码。

What do you do?

你做什么工作？

You sulk.

你生闷气。

You write shittier code if you’re mandated to do things that are against your better judgment.

如果你被要求做一些违背你更好判断的事情，你就会写出更糟糕的代码。

Why would an agent not be the same?

为什么代理不一样？

Actually, to push back against myself, I do find the actual skill I’m currently developing, which along those lines is probably what everybody’s trying to develop, is not to overspecify things, is to get out of the system’s way.

事实上，为了反驳自己，我确实发现我目前正在开发的实际技能，沿着这些思路可能是每个人都在努力开发的，不是过度指定事物，而是摆脱系统的阻碍。

Of course.

当然。

Is to specify enough to provide a kinda high-level vision and guidance.

是要指定足够的内容以提供某种高层次的愿景和指导。

It’s even better because you don’t even need that.

这甚至更好，因为你甚至不需要它。

57:25 The fundamental insight of modern software development came from the agile software development movement.

现代软件开发的基本见解来自敏捷软件开发运动。

In the late ’90s, early 2000s, a group of smart, honest, and brave people came together and said, “The way we’ve been trying to do software development for the last 40 to 50 years has not worked, will not work.

在 20 世纪 90 年代末、2000 年代初，一群聪明、诚实、勇敢的人聚集在一起说：“过去 40 到 50 年来我们一直在尝试进行软件开发的方式没有奏效，也不会奏效。

We’ve been trying to specify upfront what software should look like.

我们一直在尝试预先指定软件应该是什么样子。

We thought that we could ask humans what they wanted, write it all down, apply our systems thinking and our rigor to a spec sheet, hand that spec sheet over to a group of programmers who would then implement just that, and everyone would be happy.” Well, guess what?

我们认为我们可以询问人们想要什么，将其全部写下来，将我们的系统思维和严谨性应用到规格表中，然后将该规格表交给一组程序员，然后由他们来实现，每个人都会很高兴。”嗯，你猜怎么着？

No one was happy.

没有人高兴。

Because no one knows what they want until they receive it.

因为在收到之前，没有人知道自己想要什么。

58:13 You don’t know what a program should do until you play with it.

在你使用一个程序之前，你不知道它应该做什么。

So in the agentic age, you should resist the temptation to be overly specific upfront.

因此，在代理时代，您应该抵制预先过于具体的诱惑。

Be as vague as you can to manifest something, then interact with the something.

尽可能模糊地表达某些事物，然后与该事物互动。

The way you arrive at good software is you write a little bit of software, and then you try to use it.

获得优秀软件的方法是编写一些软件，然后尝试使用它。

It is in the process of using software that you discover what you really want.

在使用软件的过程中，您会发现自己真正想要什么。

It’s where you discover what’s important and what’s not important.

在这里你可以发现什么是重要的，什么是不重要的。

And agents are incredible at allowing you to bumble into this experience of realizing what you want because you don’t know what you want.

代理人令人难以置信地让你陷入这种实现你想要的经历，因为你不知道自己想要什么。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

58:51 And I’ve actually done something similar to what you suggested, which is implement different designs and totally different implementations, and then I create HTML pages for myself, PHP pages, where I vote on what I like more and so on.

我实际上做了一些类似于你建议的事情，即实现不同的设计和完全不同的实现，然后我为自己创建 HTML 页面、PHP 页面，在其中我对我更喜欢的内容进行投票等等。

Yes.

是的。

And it does this iterative thing, and it’s very nice and fun.

它会做这种迭代的事情，非常好而且有趣。

59:06 The interaction with the agentic system, if you create a nice interface for yourself, it can be super fun, and you’re focusing on the design part and the most fun parts of the design part.

与代理系统的交互，如果你为自己创建一个漂亮的界面，它会非常有趣，并且你专注于设计部分和设计部分中最有趣的部分。

Correct.

正确的。

59:18 And this is what humans are really good at.

而这正是人类真正擅长的。

Yeah, taste.

是的，尝尝。

Differential evaluation.

差异化评价。

59:21 You give me three options, I pick one of them.

你给我三个选择，我选其中之一。

Now, humans actually fall off a cliff if you give them 22 options.

现在，如果给人类 22 个选择，他们实际上就会从悬崖上掉下去。

That’s the paradox of choice.

这就是选择的悖论。

But you give them three options, they very quickly within a split second will tell you what they like.

但你给他们三个选择，他们很快就会在一瞬间告诉你他们喜欢什么。

There are all these ways that exploit the fact that humans will make these snap judgments that are actually pre-intellectual, right?

所有这些方法都利用了这样一个事实：人类会做出这些实际上是前智力的快速判断，对吗？

Like, they’re coming from the gut, and then they arrive up in the brain, and the brain tries to rationalize why the gut said what it said.

就像，它们来自肠道，然后到达大脑，大脑试图合理化肠道所说的原因。

And if you’re willing to let go of some of that intellectual pre-processing rationalization and simply let your gut drive, the agentic age is a revelation.

如果你愿意放弃一些智力预处理的合理化，而只是让你的直觉驱动，那么代理时代就是一个启示。

So this is a fascinating thing to ask you because you have sort of famously for a long time talked about, like, detailed chiseling of beautiful Rails Ruby code, and now you have switched in a matter of months to not doing that.

所以问你这个问题是一件很有趣的事情，因为你很长一段时间以来一直在谈论，比如，详细凿凿美丽的 Rails Ruby 代码，但现在你在几个月内就不再这样做了。

1:00:06 So, like, what is your current setup look like?

那么，您当前的设置是什么样的？

‘Cause you’re, I assume, are still looking for the beauty, for the chiseling, for the crafting, but you’re just crafting in a different medium.

因为，我认为，你仍在寻找美感、凿凿、工艺，但你只是在不同的媒介中进行工艺。

And at different levels of abstraction.

并且处于不同的抽象层次。

1:00:35 When I’m working in Ruby code, and we have a lot of Ruby code because it’s in our entire business, and I’m asking agents to make changes to that code, I still sweat the details.

当我使用 Ruby 代码工作时，我们有很多 Ruby 代码，因为它涉及我们的整个业务，并且我要求代理对这些代码进行更改，但我仍然担心细节。

What I’m coming to realize is that the economic payoff of that sweat is diminishing rapidly.

我逐渐意识到，这些汗水所带来的经济回报正在迅速减少。

The reason why I, for 25 years, was sweating every line of code so judiciously was because I knew the payoff of keeping an architecture coherent and malleable was software that could change and evolve-

25 年来，我之所以如此明智地编写每一行代码，是因为我知道保持架构的连贯性和可塑性的回报是软件可以改变和发展——

1:01:16 …

……

quickly with a small team, and not exorbitant cost, and not introducing a bunch of bugs when you change one thing over the other.

用一个小团队快速完成，成本不高，当你改变一件事而不是另一件事时，也不会引入一堆错误。

That was the driving economic argument for why you should write beautiful code, ’cause beautiful code is easier to understand, it is simpler, it is more malleable.

这是为什么你应该编写漂亮的代码的主要经济论据，因为漂亮的代码更容易理解，更简单，更具可塑性。

That was premised on humans doing the modifications.

这是以人类进行修改为前提的。

I think it is an open question to which degree this still matters.

我认为这在多大程度上仍然重要是一个悬而未决的问题。

Now, it does matter, and the reason I say that, at least for the moment, is that tokens are still scarce.

现在，这确实很重要，我之所以这么说，至少目前是因为代币仍然稀缺。

At this moment in time, we are all token limited.

此时此刻，我们的代币都是有限的。

Well, not all, but anyone who doesn’t have endless budgets are token limited.

好吧，不是全部，但任何没有无限预算的人都会受到象征性的限制。

1:02:03 So therefore, there is great payoff to writing systems that agents have an easier time dealing with and evolving without having to relearn the entire context.

因此，编写系统可以带来巨大的回报，使代理可以更轻松地处理和发展，而无需重新学习整个上下文。

Just like humans, if they can make iterations and changes to the code base without wrecking the architecture, they can make the next change just as cheaply as the last one.

就像人类一样，如果他们能够在不破坏架构的情况下对代码库进行迭代和更改，那么他们就可以像上一次更改一样便宜地进行下一次更改。

And this is the classic ball of mud where you end up with a system that’s a ball of mud-

这是经典的泥球，你最终会得到一个泥球系统 -

1:02:31 …

……

because it’s just put together in a way where nothing is connected and it’s just a real mess, right?

因为它只是以一种没有任何联系的方式放在一起，而且真的很混乱，对吗？

I’ve seen that with agents, and I’ve seen it in our own code bases where, again, the first PR is, like, mediocre of quality, and then if you add another PR on top of that, and then five more down the line, it’s not very good, right?

我在代理中看到了这一点，并且在我们自己的代码库中看到了这一点，同样，第一个 PR 的质量很一般，然后如果您在此基础上添加另一个 PR，然后再添加五个 PR，那就不是很好，对吧？

So there’s still a payoff to that, but that payoff is premised on our current moment.

所以这仍然是有回报的，但这种回报是以我们当前的时刻为前提的。

I am now able to…

我现在能够……

And this is, by the way, where the AI psychosis really comes in, when you try to extrapolate what nine months from now it’s gonna look like.

顺便说一句，当你试图推断 9 个月后它会是什么样子时，这就是人工智能精神病真正出现的地方。

What two years from now it’s gonna look like.

两年后它会是什么样子。

But as an intellectual experiment, I think the first computer I used was a Commodore 64.

但作为一项智力实验，我认为我使用的第一台计算机是 Commodore 64。

Me too.

我也是。

1:03:10 Cool.

凉爽的。

It had one megahertz CPU and 64K of memory.

它有 1 兆赫的 CPU 和 64K 的内存。

1:03:11 Everyone who wrote software for that machine internalized certain constraints.

每个为该机器编写软件的人都内化了某些限制。

Well, all the constraints.

好吧，所有的限制。

That machine was nothing but constraints.

那台机器除了限制之外什么也没有。

If you put that programmer in a time machine and teleported him or her to 2026 and gave them a modern computer today and said, “Now write me a piece of software,” they’d be lost for a little bit because all their techniques and all their heuristics would simply be wrong.

如果你把那个程序员放在时间机器里，把他或她传送到 2026 年，然后给他们一台现代计算机，然后说：“现在给我写一个软件”，他们会迷失一点，因为他们所有的技术和所有的启发法都是错误的。

Or not wrong, because efficient software is still beautiful.

或者说没有错，因为高效的软件依然美丽。

They would be out of date with the value that they could create.

他们可能已经过时了，无法创造价值。

The amount of optimization you have to apply for a one megahertz computer to produce a video game is just very different from what you have to apply today.

为制作视频游戏而为一兆赫兹计算机应用的优化量与今天必须应用的优化量非常不同。

Just imagine that guy that was programming back then on a Commodore.

想象一下当时在 Commodore 上编程的那个人。

1:03:59 Just remember, remember all those, like what programming felt like and what it meant, highly constrained resources- …

只要记住，记住所有这些，比如编程的感觉和它的含义，高度有限的资源——……

how slow everything is.

一切都是多么缓慢啊。

Beautiful in many ways.

在很多方面都很美丽。

1:04:11 Beautiful.

美丽的。

It’s chiseling.

这是凿子。

1:04:12 But-

但是——

It-

它——

…

……

1:04:15 imagine that person coming now.

想象那个人现在来了。

It’s romantic too, though.

不过，这也很浪漫。

1:04:17 Let’s also imagine that.

我们也想象一下。

This is one of the things, whenever we bemoan modern car culture, for example, right?

例如，每当我们哀叹现代汽车文化时，这就是其中一件事，对吗？

And then we think like, “Oh, wasn’t it better when we all had the horse-drawn carriages and so on?” No, it wasn’t.

然后我们会想，“哦，如果我们都有马车之类的东西不是更好吗？”不，不是。

Do you know what New York smelled like when we used horses for transportation?

你知道当我们用马作为交通工具时纽约闻起来是什么味道吗？

It was an open sewer.

那是一条露天下水道。

They just shat everywhere.

他们只是到处拉屎。

Yeah, but have you played Red Dead Redemption?

是的，但是你玩过 Red Dead Redemption 吗？

1:04:38 You know how cool those cowboys were-

你知道那些牛仔有多酷-

That is the way-

就是这样——

…

……

1:04:42 on the horse?

在马上？

…

……

1:04:43 to experience the nostalgic past, when you don’t get all the furry impulses and senses.

当你没有得到所有毛茸茸的冲动和感官时，去体验怀旧的过去。

So basically programming, old school programming by hand is kinda like the cowboy culture that we romanticize and make movies about.

所以基本上编程，老式的手工编程有点像我们浪漫化和拍电影的牛仔文化。

It’s already happening, the romanticization of handwritten code.

手写代码的浪漫化已经发生了。

1:04:57 And I have some of it because it was a very romantic era.

我有一些因为那是一个非常浪漫的时代。

I’m grateful to have been alive for 20 years of economically valuable handwritten code.

我很庆幸自己已经活了 20 年，手写代码具有经济价值。

That was a, that was a good time.

那是，那是一段美好的时光。

Where handwritten beautiful code was also valuable.

手写的漂亮代码也很有价值。

Correct.

正确的。

1:05:20 Because handwritten beautiful code exists as much today as it did yesterday.

因为手写的漂亮代码今天和昨天一样存在。

There are people who willfully write new video games for the Commodore 64, or for the Sega Mega Drive, or for other vintage consoles.

有些人故意为 Commodore 64、Sega Mega Drive 或其他老式游戏机编写新的视频游戏。

In fact, one of my favorite video games of late is ModRetro’s.

事实上，我最近最喜欢的视频游戏之一是 ModRetro。

Do you know Palmer Luckey’s- …

你知道 Palmer Luckey 的 - ...

side geschäft, which is recreating old consoles.

side geschäft，正在重建旧游戏机。

So he’s recreated the Game Boy.

所以他重新创造了 Game Boy。

Nice.

好的。

It’s amazing.

太棒了。

1:05:51 Look it up.

查一下。

It’s really cool.

真的很酷。

But what’s even cooler than the fact that he recreated this hardware and the original chunkiness, but brought it up to date with sort of modern screens and so on, now they just put out the Nintendo 64 too.

但更酷的是，他重新创建了这个硬件和原来的厚重感，但用现代屏幕等更新了它，现在他们也推出了 Nintendo 64。

Incredible.

极好的。

Super cool.

超级酷。

Wild attention to detail, input lag, and all the other things.

对细节、输入延迟和所有其他事情的极度关注。

But what’s also very cool, that one, I have to wave.

但也很酷的是，那个，我必须挥手。

That one right there, and hover over it, ’cause then you get to see what I’m talking about.

就在那里，将鼠标悬停在它上面，因为这样你就可以明白我在说什么。

That is the Chromatic-

这就是半音阶——

Ah

啊

…

……

1:06:21 Tetris re-implementation.

俄罗斯方块重新实现。

Wow.

哇。

I played a lot of Tetris on the original Game Boy.

我在最初的 Game Boy 上玩了很多俄罗斯方块。

1:06:23 Probably one of my top three favorite games of all time.

可能是我有史以来最喜欢的三款游戏之一。

And they rewrote it with one change.

他们通过一项更改重写了它。

If you hit up, the brick slams.

如果你向上击打，砖块就会砰地一声关上。

And that speeds up the game by about 400%.

这使得游戏速度提高了约 400%。

It is an incredible game, and it’s a new Game Boy game.

这是一款令人难以置信的游戏，也是一款新的 Game Boy 游戏。

1:06:47 I think the Game Boy came out in ’89 or ’88.

我认为 Game Boy 是在 89 或 88 年问世的。

It’s a very old machine.

这是一台非常旧的机器。

The fact that there’s still people writing new old games is awesome, and the reason they do it in part, now here they’re doing it because they want Tetris, but there are people who do it just for the love of the constraints, for the love of the romantic notion of writing that.

事实上，仍然有人在编写新的旧游戏，这真是太棒了，他们这样做的部分原因是，现在他们这样做是因为他们想要俄罗斯方块，但有些人这样做只是因为对限制的热爱，因为对编写俄罗斯方块的浪漫想法的热爱。

Just like there are people still riding around on horses, not to get places fast, but because they like the mode of transportation where it’s a literal biological being below you propelling you forward.

就像有人仍然骑着马到处走，不是为了快速到达目的地，而是因为他们喜欢这种交通方式，在这种交通方式中，真正的生物存在在你下方推动你前进。

And also, we should say that that beautiful code is great training data.

而且，我们应该说，漂亮的代码是很好的训练数据。

1:07:21 So in some sense, the beauty that we’ve built over a few decades-

所以从某种意义上说，我们几十年来所建立的美丽——

Yes

是的

…

……

1:07:30 continues.

继续。

We gave birth to this moment.

我们诞生了这一刻。

1:07:31 What a privilege, and I feel that very personally because I…

这是多么荣幸，我个人也有这样的感觉，因为我……

Almost all of the code I’ve ever written is public code.

我写过的几乎所有代码都是公共代码。

The vast majority of my career has been dedicated to writing open source code, and therefore, some of that code, some of those beautiful lines are in the training set.

我职业生涯的大部分时间都致力于编写开源代码，因此，其中一些代码、一些漂亮的线条都在训练集中。

And in fact, I’ve heard people do this when they write Ruby code.

事实上，我听说人们在编写 Ruby 代码时这样做。

They ask the agent, “Write it like DHH would.”

他们要求代理人：“像 DHH 那样写。”

1:08:01 And they’re pleased with the result, and that does warm my heart a little bit, that I helped give birth to this moment in my tiny little small part.

他们对结果很满意，这确实让我的心感到一点温暖，因为我在我小小的部分中帮助诞生了这一刻。

And anyone else who contributed open source code or any code at all that the agents have had access to over the last, well, entire time programming has been around as a discipline, is now part of these new agent overlords.

任何其他贡献开源代码或代理在过去、整个时间编程一直作为一门学科存在的代码的人，现在都是这些新代理霸主的一部分。

So you don’t have a little bit of sadness that writing beautiful code by hand is now less and less useful?

所以你不会因为现在手工编写漂亮的代码越来越没用而感到悲伤吗？

Am I sad that if I had to get a job tomorrow, it’s unlikely that I could apply my skills in such a way that I would be paid to write these manual lines of code?

如果我明天必须找到一份工作，我不太可能以这样的方式应用我的技能，从而获得报酬来编写这些手动代码行，我是否感到悲伤？

1:08:29 No.

不。

I did it for 25 years.

我这样做了25年。

Like, I wanna see something new here, especially if we’re all gonna live forever, which I hope we don’t.

就像，我想在这里看到一些新的东西，特别是如果我们都能永远活着，但我希望我们不会。

Maybe we’ll get to that.

也许我们会做到这一点。

But, like, I’ve done that.

但是，就像，我已经做到了。

That’s enough.

这就够了。

That’s fine.

没关系。

I don’t feel any more nostalgic about that than I do about the fact that I don’t have to spend my time in the field with a hoe or at the assembly line.

我对此的怀念并不比我不必把时间花在拿着锄头在地里或在装配线上的事实更令人怀念。

Well, hold on a second.

好吧，请稍等。

1:09:01 You are one of the best programmers in the world at writing handcrafted beautiful code, appreciators of beauty with great taste.

您是世界上最擅长编写精美代码的程序员之一，是具有高品味的美欣赏者。

Correct.

正确的。

That has been replaced.

那个已经被替换了。

I say humbly.

我谦虚地说。

Yeah.

是的。

1:09:14 That has been replaced.

那个已经被替换了。

Like, you have now…

就像，你现在有……

You’re just fast evolving, and you’re able to…

你只是在快速发展，并且你能够……

One of your really great qualities is you’re able to change your mind and evolve very quickly.

你真正伟大的品质之一是你能够改变主意并快速发展。

But, like, you had to kill that other person.

但是，就像，你必须杀死另一个人。

I am grateful for every moment that brought me to where I am right now, and therefore, I have also tried, and maybe this did take some practice.

我很感激每一个让我走到现在的时刻，因此，我也尝试过，也许这确实需要一些练习。

1:09:30 I will concede that.

我承认这一点。

Maybe I wasn’t always like this, but stoic philosophy, amor fati, loving your fate, is an incredibly liberating way to live.

也许我并不总是这样，但坚忍的哲学，爱情命运，热爱你的命运，是一种令人难以置信的自由的生活方式。

And you could attack that and say, “Well, that’s a point of privilege.” True, but also I had the same directional point when I didn’t have all this, quote unquote, “privilege.” So I think there’s a way to live and interact with the world where you accept the things you can change and the things you cannot change and fall in love with all of it.

你可以攻击这一点并说：“嗯，这是一个特权点。”确实如此，但当我没有这一切时，我也有同样的方向点，引用不引用，“特权”。所以我认为有一种生活方式和与世界互动的方式，让你接受你可以改变的事情和你不能改变的事情，并爱上这一切。

Fall in love with the fact that the world today has jumped two decades forward into technology industry from where it was last year.

爱上这样一个事实：当今世界已经从去年的水平跃进了二十年，进入了科技行业。

So can we talk about the general anxiety that programmers feel going through the same transformation?

那么我们能谈谈程序员在经历同样的转变时所感受到的普遍焦虑吗？

1:10:24 They’ve maybe gone to university, majored in computer science, dreamed of being programmers and building stuff, high salary, and now everything’s changing, and there’s deep anxiety about, “What do I do when…

他们可能已经上过大学，主修计算机科学，梦想成为程序员和建造东西，高薪，现在一切都在改变，并且存在深深的焦虑，“当……时我该怎么办？”

with my life?” Can you empathize with that, and what the hell are they supposed to do?

用我的命？”你能理解这一点吗？他们到底应该做什么？

Hugely.

巨大的。

1:10:51 Because just because I have this disposition, I’m keenly aware that that’s not evenly distributed, that not everyone sits with this position and this optimism for the future.

因为仅仅因为我有这种性格，我就敏锐地意识到这种分布并不均匀，并不是每个人都持有这种立场并对未来抱有乐观态度。

But I do think I wanna separate things a little bit.

但我确实认为我想把事情分开一点。

I think you’re gonna have a hard time coping with the new reality if the only thing you loved about programming was the mechanical bits of putting the right logical constructs together to produce something other people told you to produce.

我认为，如果你对编程唯一喜欢的就是将正确的逻辑结构放在一起以产生其他人告诉你要产生的东西的机械部分，那么你将很难应对新的现实。

Because that mechanical process is under threat.

因为机械过程正受到威胁。

If you are, as you just mentioned, excited about building things, I don’t think you’re under threat at all.

正如您刚才提到的，如果您对构建事物感到兴奋，我认为您根本不会受到威胁。

In fact, I think there’s a great argument for us needing far more builders than what we have now, and if you look at the employment stats, it’s fuzzy.

事实上，我认为我们需要比现在更多的建筑商，这是有充分理由的，如果你看一下就业统计数据，你会发现它是模糊的。

1:11:53 It’s not clear what’s gonna happen at all.

目前还不清楚会发生什么。

Some stats actually show an increase in openings because the advent of AI is so dramatically lowering the price of programs that people want a lot more programs.

一些统计数据实际上显示职位空缺有所增加，因为人工智能的出现极大地降低了课程的价格，以至于人们想要更多的课程。

This is the classic, the Jevons paradox, that says when the price of something goes down, there’s gonna be more demand for it.

这是经典的杰文斯悖论，即当某种东西的价格下降时，对它的需求就会增加。

And this is the example of the ATMs too.

这也是 ATM 机的例子。

When the ATM originally came, a lot of bank tellers were very afraid for their job because suddenly there was a machine that could dispense money from people’s account.

当ATM机最初出现时，很多银行出纳员都非常担心他们的工作，因为突然出现了一台可以从人们账户上取款的机器。

Well, what the ATMs did was lower the price of a branch, and suddenly banks could afford to open a lot more branches, and we ended up with more bank tellers than we did before.

嗯，自动柜员机的作用是降低了分行的价格，突然之间，银行有能力开设更多的分行，最终我们的银行出纳员比以前更多了。

Now, none of this is guaranteed.

现在，这一切都没有得到保证。

There are also moments where things do change.

也有事情确实发生变化的时刻。

1:12:41 The vast majority of people worked in the fields up until the late 1800s, and then suddenly we got mechanized harvesting tools, and we did not need human labor with a hoe and an ox out there.

直到 1800 年代末，绝大多数人还在田间劳作，然后突然我们有了机械化收割工具，我们不再需要用锄头和牛进行人力劳动。

We had mechanical tools to do that for us.

我们有机械工具可以帮我们做到这一点。

In that moment, are there people who were threatened that their job and their livelihood was at stake?

在那一刻，是否有人受到工作和生计受到威胁的威胁？

Yes.

是的。

Was that a reasonable thing to feel threatened about?

感到受到威胁是合理的事情吗？

Yes.

是的。

The Luddites smashing the weaving machines-

勒德分子砸毁了织布机——

1:13:13 …

……

in England had the same thing.

在英国也有同样的事情。

And I think maybe that’s the better parallel than people working the fields, because these were actually highly skilled professionals doing a job that they liked on rather favorable conditions, not slaving outside in the sun all day.

我认为这可能比在田间工作的人更好，因为这些实际上是高技能的专业人士，在相当有利的条件下做着他们喜欢的工作，而不是整天在阳光下劳作。

But where we live now, would we still like for clothing to be this heavily constrained resource?

但在我们现在居住的地方，我们是否仍然希望服装成为这种严重受限的资源？

Like, what if this T-shirt was $400?

比如说，如果这件 T 恤售价 400 美元怎么办？

I mean, okay, then I’d have two.

我的意思是，好吧，那我就买两个。

Well, my wardrobe probably looks like I have two.

嗯，我的衣柜里可能有两个。

But I think the general progress of mankind depends on productivity improvements.

但我认为人类的总体进步取决于生产力的提高。

And what are productivity improvements?

什么是生产力改进？

This is very important, because in the abstract, I think everyone says, “Yay, productivity.

这非常重要，因为从抽象的角度来看，我想每个人都会说：“是的，生产力。

That’s good.” What did you think, this was all just vibes?

那很好。”你以为这只是共鸣？

No.

不。

1:14:04 Productivity means fewer people to do the same number or the same job.

生产力意味着用更少的人来完成相同数量或相同的工作。

Now, the amount of job you want done may increase, and therefore you get more people, but it also may not.

现在，你想要完成的工作量可能会增加，因此你会得到更多的人，但也可能不会。

There may be pockets where a company just needs a certain set of fixed tasks done, and suddenly they can do them with a 10th the number of people.

可能在某些地方，公司只需要完成一组特定的固定任务，突然间他们可以用十分之一的人员来完成这些任务。

This, by the way, could…

顺便说一句，这可以……

is tragic and difficult in the moment for the individual being laid off.

对于被解雇的个人来说，此刻是悲惨和困难的。

It’s also amazing for the economy at large.

这对整个经济来说也是惊人的。

Suddenly you’ve freed up these resources who can now go do more productive things.

突然间，你释放了这些资源，他们现在可以去做更有成效的事情。

This is how the whole economy evolves and improves, and how we get growth, and growth is good.

这就是整个经济发展和改善的方式，也是我们实现增长的方式，而且增长是好的。

I think this is the other thing to make a strong defense for, that growth in general is a good thing.

我认为这是另一件需要强有力辩护的事情，总体而言，增长是一件好事。

1:14:54 We do not want to wind the clock back to 1920 or 1950.

我们不想让时光倒回 1920 年或 1950 年。

We should be excited about the fact that we’ve discovered new technology that allows us to do vastly more.

我们应该感到兴奋的是，我们发现了新技术，可以让我们做更多的事情。

And while some of the tasks that may be taken over by AI were tasks that humans were excited to do, and they’re just no longer economically viable, a lot of the tasks were just drudgery.

虽然人工智能可能接管的一些任务是人类很乐意做的任务，而且它们在经济上不再可行，但很多任务只是苦差事。

This is certainly true of my programming.

我的编程确实如此。

There were moments of programming I thought were amazing.

我认为有些编程时刻是令人惊奇的。

These were the moments that produced that state of flow we talked about last time, and they were ecstatic.

这些时刻产生了我们上次谈到的心流状态，他们欣喜若狂。

How often did they happen out of the course of a year?

它们在一年中发生的频率是多少？

If you took your average programmer, how much time out of 2,000 hours at the job did that person spend in a flow state?

如果以普通程序员为例，他在 2,000 个小时的工作时间中，有多少时间处于心流状态？

1:15:47 100?

100？

200?

200？

25?

25？

I think all those answers could be plausible for someone.

我认为所有这些答案对于某些人来说都是合理的。

And taking that drudgery, handing it over to machines, that is the history of civilization.

把那些苦差事交给机器，这就是文明的历史。

Yeah, I mean, the hours spent debugging.

是的，我的意思是，调试所花费的时间。

1:16:03 So programming has so many painful, painful hours in it.

所以编程有很多痛苦的时刻。

And now they’re gone.

现在他们走了。

For the…

对于…

I mean, for the most part, it’s just fun.

我的意思是，在大多数情况下，这很有趣。

A lot of it is gone in a lot of domains, and the rest of it may be gone very soon.

其中很多在很多领域都消失了，其余的可能很快就会消失。

1:16:16 So that’s where some of the romanticism also comes in- …

所以这就是一些浪漫主义的来源——……

because pain in the moment is difficult.

因为此刻的痛苦是很难的。

It’s hard.

这很难。

It’s annoying.

这很烦人。

Pain in the rearview mirror is accomplishment, proud, learning, steps forward, all the things, right?

后视镜中的痛苦是成就、自豪、学习、前进，所有的事情，对吗？

So we encompass all of this as part of the human experience, that we hate pain in the moment, but we cherish it when it’s five minutes past and we don’t remember the hardship.

因此，我们将所有这些视为人类经历的一部分，我们讨厌当下的痛苦，但当五分钟过去并且我们不记得困难时，我们会珍惜它。

We just remember the progress.

我们只记得进步。

So certainly at the societal level, at the macroeconomic level, growth is exciting.

因此，在社会层面、宏观经济层面，增长无疑是令人兴奋的。

1:16:51 But at the individual level, there’s going to be a lot of anxiety, potentially a lot of suffering.

但在个人层面上，将会有很多焦虑，可能会有很多痛苦。

So by way of advice, if you’re like a young DHH or young developer programmer now, what would you, what would you advise they do?

因此，作为建议，如果你现在就像一个年轻的 DHH 或年轻的开发程序员，你会怎么做，你会建议他们做什么？

Don’t try to anticipate anything.

不要试图预测任何事情。

1:17:11 You will literally go crazy.

你真的会发疯的。

Because even the smartest brains in the business cannot anticipate what two model hops from here is going to look like.

因为即使是业内最聪明的大脑也无法预测从这里开始的两个模型跳跃会是什么样子。

It’s an absolute waste of time, and you will develop an AI psychosis trying to deduce what two years from now is gonna look like.

这绝对是浪费时间，你会患上人工智能精神病，试图推断两年后会是什么样子。

Focus on right now, and right now is the most incredible time to be into computers.

专注于现在，现在是进入计算机领域最不可思议的时刻。

You can make them do the most amazing things if you lean in.

如果你努力的话，你可以让他们做出最令人惊奇的事情。

If you maybe for a hot moment force yourself to learn where the state of the art is, I double dog dare you not to get excited about what’s possible.

如果你可能在某个热门时刻强迫自己了解最先进的技术在哪里，我敢打赌你不要对可能性感到兴奋。

And would you recommend building publicly?

您会建议公开建设吗？

I think it’s optional actually to build publicly.

我认为公开构建实际上是可选的。

1:17:59 I think it’s, it’s nice to do because then you get to be part of a community, and there’s some camaraderie in open source.

我认为这样做很好，因为这样你就可以成为社区的一部分，并且在开源中会有一些友情。

Not some camaraderie.

不是什么友情。

There’s an enormous amount of camaraderie.

这里有大量的友情。

Open source is an incredible source of community and camaraderie, and it’s also a great way to stem some of that personal existential dread.

开源是社区和友情的不可思议的来源，也是消除个人生存恐惧的好方法。

If you’re amongst other humans, you can get infected with good forms of mind viruses, exciting forms of mind viruses, the ones that tell you that it’s all gonna be okay, and the future looks bright, and if we build a bunch of things together, we can do things none of us ever dreamed we could do.

如果你和其他人在一起，你可能会感染良好形式的精神病毒，令人兴奋的精神病毒，这些病毒会告诉你一切都会好起来的，未来看起来很光明，如果我们一起建造一堆东西，我们就可以做我们从未梦想过的事情。

1:18:43 I was just talking to Ryan Hughes, who’s been my main partner on Omarchy almost since day one, and we were literally talking about yesterday how when we started on this journey together, our ambitions were very modest.

我刚刚与 Ryan Hughes 交谈，他几乎从第一天起就一直是我在 Omarchy 的主要合作伙伴，昨天我们确实在谈论当我们一起开始这段旅程时，我们的野心非常有限。

We’re just like, “Can we get this distro to not crash at 3:00 AM because of an Arch package that just got pushed out outside of our control?

我们会想，“我们能否让这个发行版在凌晨 3:00 不会因为 Arch 软件包被推出到我们的控制范围之外而崩溃？

That would be amazing.

那真是太棒了。

Then it’d be great.” Now we’re leaning back and thinking, “How can we take over the world?

那就太好了。”现在我们向后靠并思考：“我们怎样才能接管世界？

How can we make Omarchy go to Mars?

我们怎样才能让奥马奇去火星？

How can we do everything we’ve ever dreamed of?” And that level of ambition inflation is partly because things have gotten better with agents, but hugely also because we’ve surrounded ourselves with others excited about the same journey.

我们怎样才能实现我们梦想的一切呢？”这种雄心壮志的部分原因是代理商的情况有所改善，但很大程度上也是因为我们周围都是对同一旅程感到兴奋的人。

1:19:33 And if you’re just sitting in your little isolated cave worrying about the future, yeah, you’re gonna go a little nuts.

如果你只是坐在孤立的小洞穴里担心未来，是的，你会有点发疯的。

I think if we learned anything during COVID, it’s that people will go nuts sitting in their little cave inside by themselves worrying about what’s gonna happen.

我认为，如果说我们在新冠疫情期间学到了什么的话，那就是人们会独自坐在自己的小洞穴里，担心会发生什么。

That is indistinguishable from depression, ruminating endlessly about things you can’t control.

这与抑郁症没有什么区别，无休止地思考你无法控制的事情。

I’m sorry to channel some Jensen Huang here, but that’s just loser talk.

我很抱歉在这里引用黄仁勋的观点，但这只是失败者的言论。

You don’t have to be a loser.

你不必成为失败者。

You can choose to lean in and- …

你可以选择向前倾，然后——……

win.

赢了。

And win is very broadly defined as learning more, making more, contributing more, being part of more.

胜利的定义非常广泛，包括学习更多、创造更多、贡献更多、参与更多。

And at the end of the day, what are your choices?

归根结底，您的选择是什么？

You don’t have a choice, mate.

你别无选择，伙计。

1:20:29 The future’s coming whether you like it or not, so you might as well choose to be excited about it.

无论你喜欢与否，未来都会到来，所以你不妨选择对此感到兴奋。

But I mean, we should emphasize the fact that planning is nearly impossible with AI.

但我的意思是，我们应该强调这样一个事实：人工智能几乎不可能进行规划。

1:20:34 I mean, most of us plan our life a little bit.

我的意思是，我们大多数人都会稍微规划一下自己的生活。

When we’re younger, you have, like, hopes and dreams.

当我们年轻的时候，你有希望和梦想。

There’s a reason you go to college.

你上大学是有原因的。

There’s a plan underlying that.

这是有一个计划的基础。

I agree with that.

我同意这一点。

But there-

但那里——

I’ll concede that.

我承认这一点。

…

……

1:20:49 it is kinda-

有点-

This is different.

这是不同的。

…

……

1:20:51 nuts that it’s impossible to really plan.

疯狂的是不可能真正计划。

Because, like, you really don’t know if there will even be a Claude Code, a Codex, and Cursor six months from now.

因为，就像，你真的不知道六个月后是否会有克劳德代码、法典和光标。

Maybe it’ll be you’ll be talking to WhatsApp.

也许您会通过 WhatsApp 进行交谈。

Maybe it’ll be all open call type.

也许这将是所有公开招募类型。

Maybe it’ll just all be voice.

也许一切都只是声音。

Maybe Omarchy will take over the world and it’ll be voice.

也许奥马奇会接管世界，而这将是声音。

Maybe there won’t be operating systems anymore.

也许不再有操作系统了。

You’ll just…

你只会……

There’ll be this glowing orb that just you just talk to because if natural language is enough to accomplish all tasks in life, like, what is life about?

会有一个发光的球体，你只需与之交谈，因为如果自然语言足以完成生活中的所有任务，比如，生活是什么？

Like, what are the major tasks you need to accomplish in life?

例如，您生活中需要完成的主要任务是什么？

If you can just do that with voice, and it writes all the programs for you, and all is systematized, and what are the jobs needed then?

如果你用语音就可以做到这一点，它给你写所有的程序，而且都系统化了，那还需要什么工作呢？

Maybe it’s more about the service industry.

也许更多的是服务业。

1:21:38 Maybe there won’t be programmers, like agentic engineers at all.

也许根本不会有像代理工程师这样的程序员。

And so yes, your advice is wise to focus on the moment, but that doesn’t mean that it’s just a crazy rollercoaster ride, ’cause we don’t know what this December or what this January will look like.

所以，是的，你的建议是明智的，专注于当下，但这并不意味着这只是一次疯狂的过山车，因为我们不知道今年 12 月或今年 1 月会是什么样子。

We don’t know, and therefore, we should choose to have faith that it’s gonna pan out.

我们不知道，因此，我们应该选择相信它会成功。

1:21:55 That is my best advice towards fighting anxiety, is that you have a choice, to a large degree, of how to lean.

这是我对抗焦虑的最佳建议，那就是你在很大程度上可以选择如何倾斜。

Do you wanna lean into PDoom?

您想了解 PDoom 吗？

PDoom is gonna happen whether you lean into it or not.

无论你是否愿意，PDoom 都会发生。

You don’t have control.

你没有控制权。

But there’s also actual daily schedule of how much learning are you doing, how much building are you doing, how much diversification you’re doing.

但也有实际的每日日程安排，包括你正在学习多少、你正在做什么、你正在做什么多样化。

1:22:22 And for example, I traveled across rural China recently, and I did it quite deliberately because you’re talking to people in China, in rural anywhere, where time moves much slower, where there’s no discussions about agentic engineering.

例如，我最近穿越了中国农村，我是故意这样做的，因为你正在与中国各地农村的人们交谈，那里的时间过得慢得多，那里没有关于代理工程的讨论。

And the ti- and I started by going on the Great Wall of China.

我和我首先登上了中国的长城。

That’s timeless.

那是永恒的。

That spans centuries.

那跨越了几个世纪。

And, you know, there was, like, this kind of tension of FOMO, like maybe I’m missing out on something.

而且，你知道，有一种 FOMO 的紧张感，就像我可能错过了一些东西。

1:23:02 But then I very deliberately wanted to find the timelessness of human existence, really plug into the fact that, okay, it always feels like everything’s changing throughout human history, but, you know, the universals are still true of what matters in life.

但后来我非常刻意地想要找到人类存在的永恒性，真正融入这样一个事实：好吧，在整个人类历史中，总是感觉一切都在变化，但是，你知道，对于生活中重要的事情来说，普遍性仍然是正确的。

And I just wanted to make sure to keep connected to that.

我只是想确保与此保持联系。

You’re not gonna miss anything.

你不会错过任何东西。

1:23:22 This is the part that actually grinded my gears in the early phases of this transition.

这是在这个转变的早期阶段真正磨砺我的部分。

Everyone was so up in arms that if you didn’t…

每个人都如此激动，如果你不……

It’s loops now.

现在是循环。

Oh, no, no, we’re done with loops.

哦，不，不，我们已经完成了循环。

It’s graphs now.

现在是图表了。

Oh, no, no, we’re done with that.

哦，不，不，我们已经完成了。

It’s harnesses this, right?

它利用了这个，对吧？

They’re constantly churning through the frontier, which in one way is actually very exciting.

他们不断地探索前沿，这在某种程度上实际上是非常令人兴奋的。

This is what happens when a new field opens up.

这就是当新领域打开时会发生的情况。

It’s like a new portal, and it’s all spilling out.

它就像一个新的门户，一切都溢出来了。

That’s exciting.

这太令人兴奋了。

But it also means that if I had just been backpacking for the last year, hadn’t touched a computer, hadn’t witnessed this agentic moment, and I just showed up yesterday, do you know what?

但这也意味着，如果我去年刚刚背包旅行，没有碰过电脑，没有目睹这个激动人心的时刻，而我昨天才出现，你知道吗？

I would’ve been caught up in two weeks.

两周后我就会被赶上。

1:24:08 There’s not any accumulation, which is in some ways a great relief.

没有任何积累，这在某种程度上是一种很大的解脱。

If you missed the past year, you can catch up to the frontier in two weeks.

如果去年错过了，两周后就能赶上边境。

If you’re a programmer who was out hiking the Himalayas for a year and you come back, you can catch up in two weeks.

如果你是一名程序员，在喜马拉雅山徒步旅行了一年，然后回来，你可以在两周内赶上。

And this is actually the great credit to the progress we’re experiencing.

这实际上是我们所取得的进步的巨大功劳。

We have so many experiments running simultaneously right now that are constantly and ruthlessly sorting what works, what doesn’t work.

我们现在同时进行如此多的实验，不断地、无情地对哪些有效、哪些无效进行分类。

You don’t have to remember or even be part of that entire journey.

您不必记住甚至不必参与整个旅程。

You can just show up for the results.

您只需出现即可查看结果。

But the key step there, when you come back from the backpacking journey, is to be willing to become a totally new, different human because things are changing so fast.

但当你从背包旅行回来时，关键的一步是愿意成为一个全新的、不同的人，因为事情变化得太快了。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

I mean, literally, if you left for the backpacking journey- …

我的意思是，从字面上看，如果你去背包旅行——……

1:24:56 in October last year and came back in April or May-

去年十月，四五月回来-

You might as well have been in the cryo chamber for 100 years.

你可能已经在冷冻室里待了 100 年了。

…

……

1:25:06 it’s like, “What, what do you mean?

就像，“什么，你什么意思？

We’re not programming anymore?” This, it’s a very…

我们不再编程了吗？”这，这是一个非常……

it’s a huge transformation.

这是一个巨大的转变。

It’s startling, and I actually…

这很令人震惊，而且我实际上……

1:25:12 I mean, I’m putting some of this on slightly for effect.

我的意思是，为了达到效果，我稍微添加了一些内容。

I also recognize that it’s okay to grief for a hot moment.

我也认识到，在炎热的时刻感到悲伤是可以的。

That’s not my disposition.

那不是我的性格。

It’s not how I do it, but I accept that that’s a time-tested mechanism for coping with a sense of loss.

这不是我的做法，但我承认这是一种经过时间考验的应对失落感的机制。

And it’s okay to have a sense of loss that the world that you knew and maybe you were very fond of is no longer the same.

当你所熟悉的、也许你非常喜欢的世界不再是原来的样子时，有一种失落感是可以接受的。

I maybe should say out loud and explicitly that I do have that, the Native American with a tear rolling down my…

我也许应该大声而明确地说，我确实有这样的经历，这位美洲原住民泪流满面……

1:25:43 Like, there’s a sadness.

比如，有一种悲伤。

It’s a goodbye.

这是一次再见。

It’s a goodbye to the old world of programming.

这是对旧编程世界的告别。

That’s…

那是……

1:25:55 it’s so fascinating to me.

这对我来说太迷人了。

I’ve spent so many years-

我花了这么多年——

But it all amounted to this moment.

但这一切都发生在这一刻。

1:25:58 That is, to me, what makes the entire journey so meaningful.

对我来说，这就是整个旅程如此有意义的原因。

AI did not arrive from the sky.

人工智能并非从天而降。

It was not alien technology that had blasted through the universe and suddenly showed up on our shores.

并不是外星技术冲破了宇宙并突然出现在我们的海岸上。

AI has been around for as long as computer science has been around.

只要计算机科学存在，人工智能就已经存在了。

In the ’50s, they thought the problem was gonna be cracked in about a decade, the smartest people at the time.

在 50 年代，他们认为这个问题将在大约十年内得到解决，他们是当时最聪明的人。

It took a little longer, but the reason it took a little longer was in part because we took some blind turns on the road to AI and neural networks and thought that there were other symbolic representations that were gonna carry the day, and they didn’t.

它花了一点时间，但它花了一点时间的部分原因是我们在人工智能和神经网络的道路上盲目转弯，并认为还有其他符号表示会取得胜利，但他们没有。

And that probably set us back about 15 years.

这可能让我们倒退了大约 15 年。

So some of it was also we had to go through the gaming revolution, 3D games.

因此，我们还必须经历游戏革命，即 3D 游戏。

1:26:47 If we had not had Quake, if we had not had Duke Nukem, if we had not had Unreal Tournament, we’d never have gotten AI because we would never have gotten the GPUs, and therefore we would never have been able to get AI in the shape it is now.

如果我们没有《雷神之锤》，如果我们没有《毁灭公爵》，如果我们没有《虚幻竞技场》，我们永远不会获得人工智能，因为我们永远不会获得 GPU，因此我们永远无法获得现在的人工智能。

So everything we did up until this moment was required to get there.

因此，我们到目前为止所做的一切都是为了实现这一目标。

You were part of that.

你是其中的一部分。

Holy…

圣…

What a blessing.

多么幸运啊。

What a blessing to have contributed in your small part, either by training or by playing video games.

无论是通过训练还是通过玩电子游戏，能够尽自己的一份微薄之力，这是多么幸运的事啊。

Literally, you could just choose to think of it that way.

从字面上看，你可以选择这样想。

All those times you spent in, for my case, in the ’90s just playing video games, they were-

就我而言，在 90 年代，你花在玩电子游戏上的所有时间，都是——

You were contributing.

你正在做出贡献。

Yeah, I was contributing to the AI revolution right there and then moment.

是的，我当时就在为人工智能革命做出贡献。

To the progress of human civilization.

为了人类文明的进步。

1:27:27 No, for sure.

不，当然。

Civilization progresses with the death of the old and the birth of the new, and it continues in this way, but it’s still the grieving process is a part of it, I think.

文明随着旧事物的死亡和新事物的诞生而进步，并以这种方式继续下去，但我认为悲伤的过程仍然是其中的一部分。

Take a moment.

花点时间。

1:27:39 It’s okay.

没关系。

Take a…

采取…

And also, you don’t even have to accept that it’s all dead.

而且，你甚至不必接受一切都已死的事实。

Like, if you are still very attached to the hand chiseling, which if you’d asked me a year ago, I would have predicted that I would’ve been more attached.

就像，如果你仍然非常执着于手工凿刻，如果你在一年前问我，我会预测我会更执着。

I’m surprised-

我很惊讶——

I’m kinda surprised…

我有点惊讶……

…

……

1:27:59 a little that I’ve not been more attached.

一点点我并没有更加依恋。

But the reason I’ve not been more attached, I think, is that I found something more fun.

但我想，我之所以没有更加依恋，是因为我发现了一些更有趣的事情。

And if it hadn’t been like that, if AI had just replaced the thing I loved and gave me something I hated, I’d probably be a little bitter.

如果不是这样，如果人工智能取代了我所爱的东西，给了我一些我讨厌的东西，我可能会有点痛苦。

I mean, this really feels…

我的意思是，这真的感觉……

1:28:16 It’s– it’s hilarious and awesome to watch and inspiring to watch.

这是——观看起来很搞笑、很棒，而且很鼓舞人心。

It’s like Picasso all of a sudden f– like, getting access to image generation and getting super excited and switching in a matter of months.

就像毕加索突然变得疯狂一样，可以访问图像生成并变得超级兴奋并在几个月内切换。

That’s literally what happened.

这就是实际发生的事情。

So, like, it’s an artist that appreciated beautiful code, and all of a sudden you’re talking about having fun-

所以，就像，这是一位欣赏美丽代码的艺术家，突然之间你就开始谈论乐趣了——

I think Picasso is actually a good parallel because if you look at his early work where he learned his craft, it was painting realistic paintings, right?

我认为毕加索实际上是一个很好的类比，因为如果你看看他早期的作品，他学习了他的手艺，那就是画写实画，对吧？

1:28:37 Like, he was training to be a master of the old ways of depicting reality the best way we knew how, and then along comes all these other forms of expression.

就像，他正在训练成为以我们知道的最好方式描绘现实的旧方式的大师，然后所有这些其他表达形式都随之而来。

Cubism comes along.

立体主义随之而来。

1:29:01 And all these o– forms of abstract expression, he’s not decrying that he’s not doing Renaissance paintings anymore, that he’s not just painting the perfect depiction of an apple.

对于所有这些抽象表达形式，他并没有谴责自己不再画文艺复兴时期的绘画，也没有谴责他画的不仅仅是苹果的完美描绘。

He’s reimagining the apple to be a freaking square, and he’s getting excited about that.

他正在将苹果重新想象成一个奇怪的正方形，他对此感到很兴奋。

And I feel that transition, that we’ve gone from this one mode of expression, and we’ve suddenly opened the gates where the, like, the color spectrum is so much wider.

我感觉到这种转变，我们已经摆脱了这种单一的表达模式，我们突然打开了大门，在那里，色谱变得更加宽广。

I’m seeing more.

我看到了更多。

And it’s perhaps because the way I became a c– programmer.

也许是因为我成为一名 C 程序员的方式。

I did not become a programmer because of a deep love of if statements.

我并不是因为深爱 if 语句而成为一名程序员。

I became a programmer because I wanted programs.

我成为一名程序员是因为我想要程序。

I wanted things to exist that did not exist.

我想要那些不存在的东西存在。

And at first, I had to learn how to program to make that happen.

首先，我必须学习如何编程来实现这一点。

1:29:56 Then I happened to fall in love with programming as a craft, and then I spent two decades really diving deep on that.

然后我碰巧爱上了编程作为一门手艺，然后我花了二十年的时间真正深入研究它。

But now I’m back.

但现在我回来了。

I’m back to having an idea and being impatient beyond belief to see it exist in the world, and AI has just shrunk that down to almost nothing.

我又回到了有了一个想法，并且非常不耐烦地想看到它存在于世界上，而人工智能刚刚将它缩小到几乎为零。

So it’s an acceleration of a rediscovery.

所以这是重新发现的加速。

Now, I understand that that’s not true for everyone.

现在，我明白这并不适合每个人。

There are plenty of programmers who just loved programming right from the beginning, and they were attracted to the logical constructs and so forth.

有很多程序员从一开始就喜欢编程，他们被逻辑结构等所吸引。

I mean, I’ve been there for two decades, so I get it.

我的意思是，我已经在那里呆了二十年了，所以我明白了。

But I also think that you’re able to discover new sides of yourself-

但我也认为你能够发现自己新的一面——

1:30:41 …

……

if you let it in.

如果你让它进来。

Again, I keep coming back to this almost regret minimization framework, to borrow Jeff Bezos’s terms here.

我再次回到这个近乎后悔最小化的框架，借用杰夫·贝佐斯的术语。

Are you gonna look at yourself two years from now and think, “Oh, I spent my time well being pissy about the present, about the fact that my industry changed”?

你是否会在两年后审视自己并想：“哦，我花了很多时间对现在、对我的行业发生变化的事实感到愤怒”？

Or would I two years from now look back upon this moment and be proud of myself for leaning in, for maybe having a moment of grief?

或者两年后当我回顾这一刻时，我会为自己的努力而感到自豪，因为也许有过一段悲伤的时刻吗？

Again, there’s room for all of it.

再说一次，所有这些都有空间。

And then going, “I’m gonna learn how the world spins now, and I’m gonna make not just the best of it, I’m gonna make more of it.”

然后说，“我要了解世界现在是如何旋转的，我不仅要充分利用它，还要充分利用它。”

I mean, it is true, a lot of programmers, a lot of friends of mine, me, obviously you, are having fun.

我的意思是，这是真的，很多程序员，我的很多朋友，我，当然还有你，都玩得很开心。

I have had more fun with computers in the last three months than at any time previously.

在过去的三个月里，我从电脑中获得的乐趣比以往任何时候都多。

Quick bathroom break, and then I gotta ask you about how you actually interact with the systems now.

快速上厕所，然后我要问你现在如何与系统实际交互。

Yes.

是的。

I gotta ask you about how has your setup programming setup changed?

我想问一下您的设置编程设置有何变化？

1:31:46 So, keyboard, voice, what’s the IDE?

那么，键盘、语音，IDE 是什么？

It’s crazy to think about now, but yeah, I used TextMate for almost 20 years.

现在想来都觉得很疯狂，但是，是的，我使用 TextMate 已经快 20 年了。

1:31:57 I used TextMate starting in 2005, I think.

我想我是从 2005 年开始使用 TextMate 的。

I helped get the first version out, and then I just wasn’t interested.

我帮助发布了第一个版本，然后我就不再感兴趣了。

I wasn’t in the market for an alternative.

我并没有在市场上寻找替代方案。

And it wasn’t until the switch to Linux that I was forced out of my habitat.

直到转向 Linux，我才被迫离开我的栖息地。

And now with the switch to, what are we calling it?

现在切换到，我们称之为什么？

Agentic engineering?

代理工程？

Oh, I fucking hate that term.

哦，我他妈的讨厌这个词。

We gotta come up with something that sounds as plain as programming, but encapsulates the fact that it’s with agents.

我们必须想出一些听起来像编程一样简单的东西，但封装了它与代理相关的事实。

But-

但是——

I still think it should be called programming at this point.

我仍然认为此时应该称为编程。

…

……

1:32:36 All right, let’s just call it programming.

好吧，我们就称之为编程吧。

Programming with agents requires a different tool set.

使用代理进行编程需要不同的工具集。

It really does.

确实如此。

And the main change here is that you’re going from single thread programming in your head to parallel processing.

这里的主要变化是，您将从头脑中的单线程编程转变为并行处理。

When I was writing code, chiseling it by hand in TextMate or even Neovim not that long ago, I would just focus on one problem at the time, and I would methodically work my way through it, and that was actually the portal to flow.

不久前，当我在 TextMate 甚至 Neovim 中手动编写代码时，我只会专注于当时的一个问题，然后有条不紊地解决它，这实际上是流动的门户。

The portal to flow was deep immersion into a single problem, see it through to the end.

心流的入口是深度沉浸在单一问题中，并坚持到底。

1:33:15 That’s not how it works with agents, in part because the agents are at once both too fast and too slow.

这并不是代理的工作方式，部分原因是代理既太快又太慢。

They don’t give you an immediate reply on something that you asked them to do that’s the same as typing on a keyboard.

他们不会立即回复您要求他们做的事情，就像在键盘上打字一样。

So you have to let the agent cook- …

所以你必须让特工做饭——……

for a bit, and therefore you realize, well, if I just sit around waiting for them, first of all, that doesn’t feel productive.

有一段时间，因此你意识到，好吧，如果我只是坐着等他们，首先，这感觉没有成效。

Even if the agent, just one of them, can be highly productive, it does not feel productive.

即使代理（只是其中之一）可以非常高效，但感觉并不高效。

It does not feel good.

感觉不太好。

It feels actually like you’re a little bit useless.

其实感觉你有点没用。

1:33:50 And maybe I had a moment when the first agentic moment was there and we, I was running mostly one agent at a time where I felt like, “I don’t know about this.” But you can solve a lot of hard problems by simply throwing more resources at it.

也许我有过这样的时刻，第一个代理时刻就在那里，我们，我当时主要运行一个代理，当时我感觉，“我不知道这件事。”但是，您只需投入更多资源就可以解决许多难题。

This is the whole scaling law of AI itself, right?

这就是人工智能本身的整个缩放定律，对吗？

That if you parallelize these things and you’re not running one agent, but you’re running a handful, you can feel like you’re in a flow state because you’re constantly doing programming work in the sense that you’re making decisions, and you’re helping either unblock an agent because it has a question about which direction to take, or you’re ready for a new task.

如果你并行化这些事情，并且你没有运行一个代理，而是运行了几个代理，那么你会感觉自己处于一种心流状态，因为你不断地进行编程工作，从某种意义上说，你正在做出决策，并且你正在帮助解锁一个代理，因为它对采取哪个方向有疑问，或者你已经准备好执行一项新任务。

And to do that, you need a different setup.

为此，您需要不同的设置。

1:34:35 I started first doing it in tmux and just having separate panes and having separate splits.

我首先开始在 tmux 中进行操作，并且只有单独的窗格和单独的分割。

Basically a terminal with tabs is a good way to think about it.

基本上，带有选项卡的终端是一个很好的思考方式。

You open a bunch of tabs.

您打开了一堆标签。

I think most humans know exactly how that works.

我想大多数人都知道它是如何运作的。

They don’t work in just one tab.

它们不仅仅在一个选项卡中工作。

So still sticking to the terminal, CLI.

所以仍然坚持使用终端 CLI。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

So you’re not using Claude Code app or the-

所以你没有使用 Claude Code 应用程序或-

No.

不。

…

……

1:34:56 Codex app or the-

Codex 应用程序或 -

I love the fact that this agent revolution was kicked off in the terminal because I was already a huge fan of TUI’s, terminal user interfaces, and the terminal in general.

我喜欢这个代理革命是在终端中开始的，因为我已经是 TUI、终端用户界面和整个终端的忠实粉丝。

1:34:57 That feels like a really nice place to be.

感觉那是一个非常好的地方。

It’s a beautiful place to be.

这是一个美丽的地方。

The modern terminal is just a good-looking place to work.

现代航站楼只是一个美观的工作场所。

So I like that.

所以我喜欢这样。

And then this fact of having multiple agents, especially once it’s not just multiple agents running on your own machine, but you start running multiple machines.

然后是拥有多个代理的事实，尤其是当多个代理不仅在您自己的计算机上运行，​​而且您开始运行多台计算机时。

Now tmux alone is not enough to keep track of it, and that’s why as of late I’ve switched to this thing called Herdr.

现在仅靠 tmux 还不足以跟踪它，这就是为什么最近我改用了这个叫做 Herdr 的东西。

1:35:40 And Herdr is essentially tmux plus agent notifications.

Herdr 本质上是 tmux 加上代理通知。

So whenever your agent is done and needs something for you, it goes ding, a little bell telling you it’s ready for its human…

因此，每当您的代理完成工作并需要为您提供某些东西时，它就会发出叮叮声，一个小铃声告诉您它已经为它的人类做好了准备……

Is it master or servant?

是主人还是仆人？

I’m not quite sure always.

我总是不太确定。

But it is ready for a decision, and it also keeps track of whether it is working mode or not.

但它已经准备好做出决定，并且它还跟踪它是否处于工作模式。

So I have this Herdr set up.

所以我设置了这个 Herdr。

I have multiple Herdr setups actually running on individual machines.

我有多个 Herdr 设置实际上在单独的机器上运行。

I went on this crazy phase just about a month ago realizing that doing this work on a single machine is not fast enough.

大约一个月前，我进入了这个疯狂的阶段，意识到在一台机器上完成这项工作还不够快。

It’s like I’ve discovered multi-core programming, but I only have two cores.

这就像我发现了多核编程，但我只有两个核心。

I’m like, “What if I had 16 cores?

我想，“如果我有 16 个核心怎么办？

What if I had 32 cores?

如果我有 32 个核心怎么办？

What if I had 64 cores?” So I instantly went out and I bought these amazing KVMs called GL.iNet Comets.

如果我有 64 个核心怎么办？”所以我立即出去购买了这些令人惊叹的 KVM，称为 GL.iNet Comet。

1:36:35 And what they do is it’s this little box.

他们所做的就是这个小盒子。

You plug in HDMI, you plug in USB and connect it to the computer.

您插入 HDMI，插入 USB 并将其连接到计算机。

It’s like a KVM.

它就像一个 KVM。

So a KVM is a remote way of controlling a computer, but what’s special about this is just how easy it was.

因此，KVM 是一种远程控制计算机的方式，但其特别之处在于它非常简单。

You connect this thing in, you go to a webpage, log in once, set one password.

你连接这个东西，你进入一个网页，登录一次，设置一个密码。

Now this thing can hop on your tailnet.

现在这个东西可以跳到你的尾网上了。

This has been the other revolution of the last year for me, is discovering these WireGuard networks.

对我来说，这是去年的另一场革命，就是发现这些 WireGuard 网络。

Tailscale is essentially turning all the computers you have into a local network wherever you are.

Tailscale 本质上是将您拥有的所有计算机转变为本地网络，无论您身在何处。

Like right now on my phone, I have direct access to all the computers in my Malibu office.

就像现在在我的手机上一样，我可以直接访问马里布办公室的所有计算机。

I also have access to all my computers in my Copenhagen office.

我还可以访问哥本哈根办公室的所有计算机。

1:37:26 And I can treat them as though I sat right next to them without having to punch holes in a firewall or set up complicated VPNs.

我可以像坐在他们旁边一样对待他们，而无需在防火墙上打孔或设置复杂的 VPN。

And what this does is it just decreases the friction it takes to get new compute online.

这样做的作用只是减少了在线获取新计算所需的摩擦。

So as soon as I discovered this, I looked at my closet, and I realized I had a bunch of mini PCs from prior experiments, and I just said, “What if I just connected all of them?”

所以当我发现这一点时，我看了看我的衣柜，我意识到我有一堆之前实验中的迷你电脑，我只是说，“如果我把它们全部连接起来怎么办？”

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

And I just connected four of the computers-

我刚刚连接了四台计算机-

Nice.

不错。

…

……

1:37:53 in a closet.

在壁橱里。

They all had their little Comet, and suddenly I could run agents on more computers at the same time, and I could control them all with Herdr.

他们都有自己的小彗星，突然间我可以同时在更多计算机上运行代理，并且我可以使用 Herdr 控制它们。

And it did get to a point where I maxed out my own processing power.

我确实达到了最大化自己处理能力的地步。

Right.

正确的。

That I think at about…

我想的是……

1:38:09 What do we want to put it?

我们想放什么？

About four to five machines running, I don’t know, three agents.

我不知道大约有四到五台机器在运行，三个代理。

I have about 16 threads.

我有大约 16 个线程。

That’s what I can run.

这就是我能跑的。

And the faster the agents run, of course, the fewer threads I can run, but at the current pace, I can run about 16 threads- …

当然，代理运行得越快，我可以运行的线程就越少，但按照目前的速度，我可以运行大约 16 个线程——……

at full acceleration.

全加速时。

And that’s part of why I’ve gone from just being excited about the agent moment to being delirious.

这就是为什么我从对代理时刻感到兴奋变成了精神错乱的部分原因。

Because I think as you say, some of it is a little assaulting.

因为我认为正如你所说，其中有些内容有点攻击性。

Again, we’re on—we’re on a dial-up bandwidth-wise with our computer.

再说一遍，我们的计算机正在使用拨号带宽。

I mean, it’s actually hilarious.

我的意思是，这实际上很搞笑。

So you think of I’m sitting here a year ago, right?

所以你认为我一年前坐在这里，对吗？

I’m chiseling my code.

我正在修改我的代码。

I’m writing my lines.

我正在写我的台词。

1:38:55 And over the course of, like, an hour, I will have written one beautiful controller, one beautiful model.

在大约一个小时的过程中，我将编写一个漂亮的控制器，一个漂亮的模型。

Like, that’s one file.

就像，这是一个文件。

And I’ve really worked on it, right?

我真的很努力，对吧？

So maybe there’s 60 lines left.

所以也许还剩下 60 行。

So maybe my bandwidth at this moment is, like, 30 lines an hour.

所以也许我现在的带宽是每小时 30 行。

I think that’s even high.

我认为这甚至很高。

Maybe it’s 20 lines an hour.

也许每小时 20 行。

Now I’m running 16 threads.

现在我正在运行 16 个线程。

I’m producing at some times hundreds of lines an hour or hundreds of lines of code per hour.

有时我每小时生成数百行或数百行代码。

Now, let me pause myself there for a hot moment.

现在，让我在这里暂停一下。

I hate that metric, right?

我讨厌这个指标，对吧？

1:39:28 Like, lines of code is a stupid metric in general to measure these things, and I think it’s right from some in the programming community to ridicule the AI psychosis when everyone talks about the number of lines of code they’re writing, and then you ask them, “What did you build?” And then they’re like, “Well, I…” And then no good answer comes out, right?

就像，代码行数通常是衡量这些事情的愚蠢指标，我认为当每个人都在谈论他们正在编写的代码行数，然后你问他们“你构建了什么？”时，编程社区中的一些人嘲笑人工智能精神病是正确的。然后他们会说，“好吧，我……”然后就没有好的答案了，对吧？

It’s just a nice shorthand to-

这只是一个很好的简写——

It is a nice shorthand.

这是一个很好的速记。

1:39:49 It is a representation or encapsulation of how much output that’s coming out.

它是对输出量的表示或封装。

Now, whether the output is good or bad-

现在，无论输出是好还是坏——

1:39:57 …

……

is not a referendum on that.

不是对此进行全民公投。

But I was producing and producing so much more now, right?

但我现在生产的东西越来越多，对吧？

And therefore I’m able to keep all these threads going.

因此我能够让所有这些线索继续下去。

So that’s the setup.

这就是设置。

It’s still Neovim, but at this point, I’m not writing a lot of code, so I’m using Neovim as a project browser and then as a way to kick off lazygit to see the change log for what’s there.

它仍然是 Neovim，但在这一点上，我没有编写很多代码，所以我使用 Neovim 作为项目浏览器，然后作为启动懒惰的方式来查看其中的更改日志。

And even that, I’d say if GitHub was a little faster at showing you your pull request, the web is probably actually a nicer place to do that.

即便如此，我想说，如果 GitHub 在向您展示拉取请求时能更快一点，那么网络实际上可能是一个更好的地方。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

There’s also this other tool I’ve been playing with a bit called Hunk, which just produces diffs in a really nice way.

还有我一直在使用的另一个工具，叫做 Hunk，它以一种非常好的方式产生差异。

So you could look at that too.

所以你也可以看看。

1:40:37 But I find that when I look at Hunk, I only see the change set, and when I’m reviewing output from an agent, I often want to see the surrounding context.

但我发现，当我查看 Hunk 时，我只看到更改集，而当我查看代理的输出时，我经常想查看周围的上下文。

Oh, yeah, so it changed this file, but actually, what do we have in this other file that wasn’t touched but maybe should’ve been touched?

哦，是的，所以它改变了这个文件，但实际上，我们在另一个文件中有什么没有被触及但也许应该被触及的？

So that’s why I still like Neovim as a way of doing it.

这就是为什么我仍然喜欢 Neovim 作为一种实现方式。

But it’s all happening, by the way, of course, in Omarchy.

但这一切当然都发生在奥马奇。

So it’s all happening on Linux.

所以这一切都发生在 Linux 上。

And this was the other major breakthrough with agents.

这是代理商的另一个重大突破。

Agents love the Unix philosophy.

特工们热爱 Unix 哲学。

It loves individual tools that it can invoke through the command line, and there is no operating system on Earth of the majors, I’m counting three here, Mac, Windows, Linux, that works as well with that mechanism as Linux.

它喜欢可以通过命令行调用的单独工具，并且地球上没有主流操作系统，我在这里数了三个，Mac，Windows，Linux，可以像 Linux 一样使用该机制。

1:41:25 Everything in Linux is either a config file or a CLI tool.

Linux 中的所有内容要么是配置文件，要么是 CLI 工具。

Now, that was its main drawback five minutes ago.

五分钟前，这就是它的主要缺点。

This was the reason people didn’t like Linux.

这就是人们不喜欢 Linux 的原因。

It’s like it’s all config files and CLI tools.

就像所有的配置文件和 CLI 工具一样。

1:41:39 What great irony that the universe has played it upon us that now the drawbacks of Linux five minutes ago are now its major selling points.

宇宙对我们来说是多么大的讽刺啊，五分钟前的 Linux 缺点现在却成了它的主要卖点。

This was one of the things…

这是其中一件事……

I thought I was stuck for a weekend with a Mac four months ago.

四个月前，我还以为我只能用 Mac 度过一个周末。

I thought I had a computer at the place I was going that was a Linux machine, so I didn’t bring my laptop, and I found out when I arrived I only had a Mac Mini.

我以为我要去的地方有一台 Linux 机器，所以我没有带笔记本电脑，当我到达时我发现我只有一台 Mac Mini。

So I was gonna make the best of a bad situation here and set up my Mac in some of the ways I’ve been thinking about with Linux.

所以我打算充分利用这里的糟糕情况，并按照我一直在考虑的 Linux 的一些方式来设置我的 Mac。

And you can actually do a lot now.

现在你实际上可以做很多事情。

Homebrew has gotten really quite good.

Homebrew 已经变得非常好。

Homebrew is the missing package manager for the Mac, and no one has done more to move the Mac forward in terms of ease of setup.

Homebrew 是 Mac 上缺失的软件包管理器，而且没有人比 Mac 更容易设置。

1:42:31 But still something as simple as Raycast, I don’t know if you’ve used that.

不过还是Raycast这么简单，不知道你用过没有。

That’s the- There’s no config file that you can just access.

就是这样——没有您可以访问的配置文件。

You have to go into the GUI, export a file, then take that file, I don’t know, in your freaking backpack on a USB key.

你必须进入 GUI，导出一个文件，然后将该文件（我不知道）放在你那该死的背包中的 USB 密钥上。

And then you can import it somewhere else.

然后你可以将其导入到其他地方。

You cannot automate the entire setup of your machine.

您无法自动化机器的整个设置。

You can’t automate at all the configuration of Mac’s default key bindings.

您无法自动化 Mac 默认按键绑定的所有配置。

That has to be a manual process where you’re clicking with a mouse like a caveman to set up your machine.

这必须是一个手动过程，您需要像穴居人一样点击鼠标来设置您的机器。

I mean, there’s ways around it.

我的意思是，有办法解决这个问题。

Not good ones.

不是好人。

1:43:07 I looked.

我看了看。

I tried hard.

我很努力。

So here’s my—been my journey.

这就是我的旅程。

1:43:10 Obviously I’m a Linux person, but because of Adobe Premiere, Adobe products, I’m also a Windows person, so oftentimes I would use WSL, Windows Subsystem for Linux.

显然我是一个 Linux 人，但由于 Adob​​e Premiere、Adobe 产品，我也是一个 Windows 人，所以我经常会使用 WSL（Windows Subsystem for Linux）。

Yes.

是的。

So Linux inside Windows, which is…

所以 Windows 中的 Linux 是……

1:43:23 in the agentic era is not a good kind of Linux, ’cause it’s just-

在代理时代并不是一种好的 Linux，因为它只是——

It’s a sandbox.

这是一个沙箱。

…

……

1:43:29 it’s a sandbox, and you want the Linux to be unleashed to be able to do everything.

它是一个沙箱，您希望 Linux 能够发挥作用来完成所有任务。

Correct.

正确的。

And so I have now woken up to things like GrayCat, and have w- you know, I’m a keyboard person.

所以我现在已经意识到像 GrayCat 这样的东西了，并且知道，我是一个键盘手。

1:43:34 Where’s the config file?

配置文件在哪里？

What, can I basically do everything where an agent can, can set everything up for me and save the configuration so I can replicate it across systems and everything’s automated?

什么，我基本上可以做代理可以做的所有事情，可以为我设置一切并保存配置，以便我可以跨系统复制它并且一切都是自动化的？

And so I had to ask a lot of those questions, and a lot of them are missing.

所以我不得不问很多这样的问题，但其中很多都被遗漏了。

They don’t have good answers.

他们没有好的答案。

But oftentimes you could actually just build the app yourself.

但通常情况下，您实际上可以自己构建应用程序。

But there are hacks.

但也有一些黑客行为。

Yeah, they’re hacks.

是的，他们是黑客。

There are hacks.

有黑客。

They’re hacks.

他们是黑客。

You don’t have to live like this, Lex.

你不必这样生活，莱克斯。

1:44:03 There’s a better…

有一个更好的…

Actually, this is a great moment.

事实上，这是一个伟大的时刻。

Until you have a video editor.

直到您拥有视频编辑器。

So this is a good moment.

所以这是一个好时机。

Yep.

是的。

I heard it was your birthday.

我听说今天是你的生日。

Yeah.

是的。

So I brought a little gift.

所以我带了一份小礼物。

No.

不。

We are going to get you onto the agentic operating system whether you like it or not.

无论您是否喜欢，我们都会让您进入代理操作系统。

This is awesome.

这太棒了。

And I asked- …

我问——……

1:44:24 my friends at Dell whether maybe they had a machine that I could get you for your birthday.

我在戴尔的朋友们是否有一台机器可以送给你作为生日礼物。

Oh, no.

哦，不。

So here’s the machine I use- …

这是我使用的机器 - ...

1:44:33 which is- …

这是——……

well, the same one I use, but it’s now yours.

好吧，我用的是同一个，但现在它是你的了。

It’s a-

这是一个——

No

否

…

……

1:44:40 Dell XPS 14- …

戴尔 XPS 14-...

already set up with Omarchy 4-

已经与 Omarchy 4 设置-

Oh, wow

哦，哇

…

……

1:44:45 ready to be configured for you.

已准备好为您配置。

And once you realize that all your…

一旦你意识到你所有的……

By the way, we should almost time this.

顺便说一句，我们差不多应该计时了。

You can be up and running.

您可以启动并运行。

You have to answer, like, five questions in about one minute.

你必须在一分钟内回答五个问题。

You could literally do it live if you wanted to.

如果你愿意的话，你实际上可以现场表演。

Oh, Omarchy, beautiful, modern opinion Linux by DHH.

哦，Omarchy，DHH 的美丽、现代的 Linux 观点。

1:45:00 Yeah, let’s do it.

是的，让我们开始吧。

Yeah, fill it out while I talk.

是的，在我说话的时候填写它。

1:45:04 So-

所以——

Cool

酷

…

……

1:45:07 exactly what you realized, that pain on the Mac was the exposure I got for about a weekend, and I tried really hard, and I found some decent workarounds, the main one being that Homebrew now has tabs for GUI apps.

正如你所意识到的，Mac 上的痛苦是我在大约一个周末的曝光，我非常努力地尝试，我找到了一些不错的解决方法，主要的一个是 Homebrew 现在有 GUI 应用程序的选项卡。

Because it’s hilarious to think upon the recent past where people would go to websites, like, “I need Zoom.” They would enter zoom.com, find the download link, download a DMG- …

因为想想最近人们会访问诸如“我需要 Zoom”之类的网站，这真是太搞笑了。他们会进入 Zoom.com，找到下载链接，下载 DMG-...

double-click on that, see a weird manual interaction telling them to drag an icon from one place of the screen to the other, and that was how you installed apps.

双击它，会看到一个奇怪的手动交互，告诉他们将图标从屏幕的一个位置拖动到另一个位置，这就是安装应用程序的方式。

And you’d just do that over and over again until you had all the apps that you wanted, and if you were setting up a new machine and you had, like, 12 apps, you’d go to 12 different websites to download them like a total caveman.

你会一遍又一遍地这样做，直到拥有你想要的所有应用程序，如果你要设置一台新机器，并且你有 12 个应用程序，你会像穴​​居人一样去 12 个不同的网站下载它们。

1:46:01 Homebrew has solved a lot of that, but it has not solved all of it, and has solved nothing in terms of the-

Homebrew 已经解决了很多问题，但还没有解决所有问题，并且在以下方面没有解决任何问题：

Sorry to interrupt, but look how fast this is going.

抱歉打扰，但看看这进展有多快。

Oh, it’s gonna be done in about 40 seconds.

哦，大约40秒内就可以完成。

1:46:11 And then you’re gonna be inside of Omarchy.

然后您就会进入 Omarchy 内部。

Super is the Windows or Command key on your keyboard.

Super 是键盘上的 Windows 或 Command 键。

1:46:17 So which one is the Super key?

那么超级钥匙是哪一把呢？

Yep, that’s the Windows key.

是的，那是 Windows 键。

1:46:21 Oh, actually, no, no, you have a special edition.

哦，实际上，不，不，你有一个特别版。

Yeah.

是的。

There are only about six of these computers in the world.

世界上大约只有六台这样的计算机。

Oh, there’s a Super key.

哦，有一个超级键。

It says Super, and look at where the Copilot key is on the other end of the keyboard.

它显示“超级”，然后查看副驾驶键在键盘另一端的位置。

1:46:29 That’s the Omarchy logo.

这是 Omarchy 的标志。

Nice.

好的。

1:46:35 Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

This was Spencer Bull at Dell, who I’ve been working with on a lot of this stuff.

这是戴尔的斯宾塞·布尔 (Spencer Bull)，我一直在与他合作做很多这样的事情。

1:46:36 They’ve been incredible.

他们太不可思议了。

They, for a moment, let go of the XPS brand.

他们暂时放弃了 XPS 品牌。

Yes, they did, last year.

是的，去年他们做到了。

And I was like, “This is dumb.

我当时想，“这太愚蠢了。

1:46:48 This is…

这是……

XPS is awesome.”

XPS 太棒了。”

It was not just dumb that it got rid of the XPS branding.

它取消 XPS 品牌不仅仅是愚蠢。

1:46:51 They also got rid of the Escape key and put in capacitive touch buttons at the top.

他们还取消了 Escape 键，并在顶部放置了电容式触摸按钮。

The mistake that Apple realized like three years ago was terrible, and everyone hated them for them.

苹果三年前意识到的错误是可怕的，每个人都因此而讨厌他们。

But now they have an incredible team, and this was actually my first Dell laptop for myself.

但现在他们拥有一支令人难以置信的团队，这实际上是我自己的第一台戴尔笔记本电脑。

1:47:12 Because I’ve been using Dell on our servers.

因为我的服务器一直使用戴尔。

Dell was what powered our cloud exit.

戴尔为我们退出云提供了动力。

We’ve been running Dell since the mid-2000s, I think.

我想我们从 2000 年代中期就开始运营戴尔了。

But I never ran their laptops, because compared to a MacBook, they just weren’t up to the task for me.

但我从未使用过他们的笔记本电脑，因为与 MacBook 相比，它们无法胜任我的任务。

The XPS’ from 2016, or from 2026, with those Intel Panther Lake chips, are the first Dells that I would personally actually use.

2016 年或 2026 年的 XPS 配备英特尔 Panther Lake 芯片，是我个人实际使用的第一台戴尔电脑。

And it’s funny because when I got mad at Apple originally, I thought, like, “Do you know what?

这很有趣，因为当我最初对苹果生气时，我想，“你知道吗？

I should just get a Dell,” because we already used them and whatever, and I got a Dell, and I was like, “Man, I can’t do it.

我应该买一台戴尔，”因为我们已经使用过它们等等，我买了一台戴尔，我当时想，“伙计，我做不到。

I can’t do it.

我做不到。

It’s not good enough.” And then lo and behold, this year they just fixed everything.

这还不够好。”然后你瞧，今年他们刚刚解决了所有问题。

They fixed the battery life.

他们修复了电池寿命。

They fixed the performance.

他们修复了性能。

1:47:59 They fixed the compatibility.

他们修复了兼容性。

They fixed the weight.

他们固定了重量。

They fixed the screen.

他们修好了屏幕。

That’s a tandem OLED screen-

那是串联 OLED 屏幕 -

Yeah, that’s incredible.

是的，这太不可思议了。

…

……

1:48:05 which means it’s actually better tech than what you’ll get in a freaking MacBook.

这意味着它实际上比你在一台该死的 MacBook 上得到的技术更好。

It’s lighter than a MacBook, and the chip is finally competitive because Intel spent a good five years developing the 18A process node.

它比 MacBook 更轻，而且该芯片终于具有竞争力，因为英特尔花了五年时间开发 18A 工艺节点。

It took a long time, but now it’s here, and it’s freaking incredible.

花了很长时间，但现在它来了，这真是令人难以置信。

We finally have competition to Apple M chips- …

我们终于可以与 Apple M 芯片竞争了——……

that can go as long as on battery and can have competitive performance.

它可以与电池一样长时间运行，并且具有具有竞争力的性能。

And there’s a beautiful default theme to this thing, and then what is it?

这个东西有一个漂亮的默认主题，那么它是什么？

1:48:34 Super Space opens up.

超级空间开启。

Actually, you can just push the Omarchy key.

实际上，您只需按 Omarchy 键即可。

1:48:39 It opens up the menu.

它打开菜单。

So now you control everything from there.

所以现在你可以从那里控制一切。

Oh, same thing as the Super.

哦，和超级一样。

1:48:44 Okay.

好的。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Same thing as Super Space.

和超级空间一样。

1:48:45 So this has been a huge change for me, that we finally have Linux machines that you don’t have to make excuses for.

所以这对我来说是一个巨大的改变，我们终于拥有了你不必为之找借口的 Linux 机器。

Because I don’t mind making excuses because excuses are really just another word for trade-offs.

因为我不介意找借口，因为借口实际上只是权衡的另一种说法。

I love that Framework 13 I think I talked about last time.

我喜欢我上次谈到的 Framework 13。

I still like them.

我还是喜欢他们。

They still make good computers.

他们仍然制造出很好的计算机。

But I think for a lot of people, they didn’t want a DIY experience.

但我认为对于很多人来说，他们并不想要 DIY 体验。

They wanted something that just out of the box felt like it was on par in build quality and whatever with Macs, and now we finally have it.

他们想要一些开箱即用的东西，感觉它在构建质量等方面与 Mac 不相上下，现在我们终于拥有了它。

So happy birthday.

生日快乐。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

1:49:27 An Omarchy Dell laptop from DHH is the best birthday present.

DHH 的 Omarchy Dell 笔记本电脑是最好的生日礼物。

This is awesome.

这太棒了。

Check the screensaver, by the way.

顺便检查一下屏幕保护程序。

Yeah, it’s kind of amazing.

是的，这有点神奇。

1:49:36 I’m seeing it.

我看到了。

On that tandem OLED screen-

在那串联的 OLED 屏幕上——

It’s gorgeous.

太漂亮了。

…

……

1:49:41 it is absolutely mind-bogglingly awesome.

这绝对是令人难以置信的棒。

Look at that.

看看那个。

1:49:46 There’s like a retro look to the whole thing.

整个事情有一种复古的感觉。

It’s like Fiverr pop-

就像 Fiverr 流行音乐一样

It’s like running a bulletin board system in- …

这就像在……中运行一个公告板系统。

1:49:51 the ’90s, which is exactly what I did when I was 14 years old.

90年代，这正是我14岁时所做的。

So for me, it’s a complete throwback and an awesome aesthetic, combining this sense of modern rising culture in Unix with- …

所以对我来说，这是一种完全的复古和一种令人敬畏的美学，将 Unix 中现代新兴文化的感觉与……结合起来。

this throwback of the ’90s.

这是90年代的复古风。

Yeah, like a retro look for an agent first OS.

是的，就像代理优先操作系统的复古外观。

1:50:10 It’s crazy.

太疯狂了。

Which again, pairs…

再说一次，配对……

1:50:13 This was why I was so excited that- …

这就是为什么我如此兴奋——……

all these agent harnesses arrived as TUI’s, arrived as CLIs- …

所有这些代理安全带都以 TUI 的形式到达，以 CLI 的形式到达——……

has arrived as a terminal because suddenly, a whole new generation of both programmers and regular users discovered the glory of the terminal.

终端的出现是因为突然间，全新一代的程序员和普通用户发现了终端的荣耀。

The terminal was actually one of the most impressive and productive user interfaces we can have.

该终端实际上​​是我们拥有的最令人印象深刻和最高效的用户界面之一。

Now, we’ve built user interfaces since then that were easier to learn.

现在，我们从那时起就构建了更容易学习的用户界面。

The mouse is a wonderful invention for letting someone who doesn’t know a lot about computers just click around and find things out, but the terminal is for people who want to learn their systems, who wanna learn the keyboard commands.

鼠标是一项很棒的发明，可以让那些对计算机不太了解的人只需点击鼠标就能找到答案，但终端是为那些想要学习他们的系统、想要学习键盘命令的人准备的。

So you think the TUI is gonna stick around?

那么您认为 TUI 会继续存在吗？

100%.

100%。

1:51:00 Now, it’s not gonna be the only thing.

现在，这不会是唯一的事情。

Of course it’s not, because these labs now have trillion dollar valuations, so they need to be able to reach billions of people.

当然不是，因为这些实验室现在估值高达数万亿美元，因此它们需要能够接触到数十亿人。

And I don’t think we’re gonna teach billions of people the intricacies of the TUI.

我认为我们不会向数十亿人传授途易的复杂性。

So we’re gonna have other tools, and we already have other tools, which is, by the way, one of the sweet things about Linux, the ChatGPT Codex tool.

所以我们将会有其他工具，而且我们已经有了其他工具，顺便说一下，这是 Linux 的一个优点，ChatGPT Codex 工具。

Yeah, I saw that.

是的，我看到了。

Literally within two hours of that announcement dropping, I had it wrapped up and ready to go in Omachi.

公告发布后不到两个小时，我就将其包装好并准备前往大町。

1:51:23 Already now, if you go to…

现在，如果你去……

You can actually hit the Omachi key- …

你实际上可以按 Omachi 键 - ...

and then just write ChatGPT.

然后只写ChatGPT。

It should pop up as, like, install.

它应该像安装一样弹出。

Nice.

好的。

And then just hit return.

然后只需按回车键即可。

Sudo password for Lex.

Lex 的 Sudo 密码。

Yeah, whatever you put in.

是的，随便你放进去。

1:51:42 And then it’s just gonna install it, and it’s gonna pop it up, and you have ChatGPT.

然后它会安装它，它会弹出它，你就有了 ChatGPT。

Nice.

好的。

And that’s how a lot of the apps are, and all the agentic harnesses are built in that way.

这就是很多应用程序的样子，所有代理工具都是以这种方式构建的。

1:51:48 Tailscale, as I talked about, if you wanna hop on that, is that way.

Tailscale，正如我所说，如果你想跳上去，就是那样。

Dropbox.

Dropbox。

And the reason all these things are in there is because I use them.

所有这些东西都在那里的原因是因为我使用它们。

It’s because I built this system for me, and I thought, first and foremost, how do I build my dream computer just for me?

这是因为我为自己构建了这个系统，并且我想，首先也是最重要的是，如何为我构建我梦想的计算机？

And if I get my dream computer, I am assured there are other people who are gonna have the same dreams as I do.

如果我得到了我梦想的电脑，我确信其他人也会有和我一样的梦想。

Now, you’re obsessed about getting the installation to be under one minute, and a bunch of people asked you online why.

现在，您痴迷于让安装时间在一分钟以内，并且很多人在网上问您原因。

1:52:13 So why?

那么为什么呢？

Why were you so obsessed to getting the installation to be less than 60 seconds?

为什么您如此着迷于让安装时间少于 60 秒？

First, let me quote Michel Hashimoto, who created Ghostty terminal that’s awesome and also available on Omachi and was also the founder of HashiCorp, who had this great post on X not too long ago that had the killer line, “The pursuit of excellence deserves no explanation.” Wanting to make something as good and as fast and as beautiful as possible has no need for justification.

首先，让我引用 Michel Hashimoto 的话，他创建了非常棒的 Ghostty 终端，并且在 Omachi 上也可以使用，他也是 HashiCorp 的创始人，他不久前在 X 上发表了一篇很棒的帖子，其中有一句杀手锏：“追求卓越无需解释。”想要把东西做得尽可能好、尽可能快、尽可能漂亮，不需要任何理由。

1:52:58 We should want beautiful, fast systems that are a delight to use.

我们应该想要美观、快速、使用起来令人愉悦的系统。

Now, the funny thing with the install time is it didn’t actually start with a one-minute mission.

现在，安装时间的有趣之处在于它实际上并不是从一分钟的任务开始的。

I was being modest when it got going.

事情发生时我很谦虚。

I thought if I could set up my entire system in 15 minutes, it would already be such a dramatic improvement over what came before it that I would be perfectly happy.

我想如果我能在 15 分钟内设置好整个系统，那么与之前相比已经是一个巨大的进步，我会非常高兴。

And it came off the fact that the benchmarking had been skewed so out of whack.

事实上，基准测试已经如此不正常。

You talked about the Commodore 64 being your first computer, right?

您谈到 Commodore 64 是您的第一台计算机，对吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

When you unwrap that Commodore 64 and you hit the on button, in I think about less than one second, the basic interpreter was ready to accept your command.

当您打开 Commodore 64 的包装并按下启动按钮时，我认为不到一秒钟，基本解释器就准备好接受您的命令。

1:53:28 It was literally almost instant.

这几乎是瞬间的。

There was virtually no boot time.

几乎没有启动时间。

Do you know how long it took me to set up a new Mac that I had bought for actually the one app that I still haven’t vibe coded my way into on Linux, which is Adobe Lightroom?

你知道我花了多长时间才设置了一台新 Mac，我买的这台 Mac 实际上是为了一个我还没有在 Linux 上进行 vibe 编码的应用程序，那就是 Adob​​e Lightroom？

1:53:53 Brand-new computer, out of the box.

全新电脑，开箱即用。

I set it up.

我设置了。

There’s a software update.

有软件更新。

Before I was ready to install Adobe Lightroom that I had it fully up to date, it took 42 minutes.

在我准备好安装 Adob​​e Lightroom（我已经完全更新）之前，花了 42 分钟。

That’s grotesque.

这太奇怪了。

That’s absurd.

这太荒谬了。

That’s an insult to everyone who likes computers, that you get a new computer and before you can use it, you have to spend 42 minutes doing updates…

这对每个喜欢电脑的人来说都是一种侮辱，你买了一台新电脑，在使用它之前，你必须花 42 分钟进行更新……

on something that was already installed on it out of the box from the factory.

是在工厂开箱即用的情况下安装的。

That is just preposterous, and it’s crazy that that’s not even the worst thing.

这太荒谬了，而且疯狂的是，这还不是最糟糕的事情。

I also got a PC because all these Linux machines, they come as PCs, right?

我还拥有一台 PC，因为所有这些 Linux 机器都是 PC，对吧？

Right.

正确的。

And they have Windows pre-installed.

他们预装了Windows。

1:54:35 So I got one.

所以我得到了一个。

This was just three weeks ago.

这只是三周前的事。

Brand-new machine, Intel Panther Lake, the whole shebang.

全新机器，Intel Panther Lake，全舍帮。

An hour and 35 minutes from unwrapping the thing until it’s ready to use.

从打开包装到可以使用需要 1 小时 35 分钟。

How long did you take before you think you were in Omarchy?

您花了多长时间才认为自己来到了奥马奇？

I mean, it’s less than a minute for sure.

我的意思是，这肯定不到一分钟。

A minute.

一分钟。

Yeah.

是的。

We can build computers like this.

我们可以建造这样的计算机。

1:54:57 We have the technology.

我们有技术。

We’ve had the technology since like 1981 when the Commodore 64 first came out.

自 1981 年 Commodore 64 首次问世以来，我们就拥有了这项技术。

The fact that we now have a computer that’s a trillion times faster and you have to spend 42 minutes or an hour and a half setting it up before it’s ready to use is so infuriating to me that it became a passion.

事实上，我们现在拥有一台速度快一万亿倍的计算机，而你必须花 42 分钟或一个半小时来设置它才能准备使用，这让我非常恼火，以至于它变成了一种激情。

And it’s funny, just while we were having a little break here, I was talking to Ryan Hughes, my co-conspirator here.

有趣的是，就在我们在这里休息的时候，我正在和我的同谋瑞安·休斯(Ryan Hughes)交谈。

We now have, we think, a line where we can create these special turbo images that are pre-made for specific computers because it relies on some knowledge of the hardware, like the Dell XPS.

我们认为，我们现在拥有一条生产线，可以创建这些为特定计算机预先制作的特殊涡轮图像，因为它依赖于对硬件（如戴尔 XPS）的一些了解。

We’re gonna make a Dell XPS turbo image that can install in about 12 seconds.

我们将制作一个可在大约 12 秒内安装的 Dell XPS Turbo 映像。

A full Linux system-

一个完整的Linux系统——

Yeah

是啊

…

……

1:55:43 installed in about 12 seconds.

大约 12 秒内安装完毕。

That’s incredible.

那真是难以置信。

That obsession is what gives me this great satisfaction with using computers, that we do not accept things the way they are.

这种痴迷让我对使用计算机感到非常满意，因为我们不接受事物本来的样子。

1:55:45 And this is why this agent-accelerated reality that I now inhabit is so invigorating.

这就是为什么我现在所处的这种代理加速的现实如此令人振奋。

Because I can look at these kinds of constraints and go, do you know what?

因为我可以看到这些限制然后就走，你知道吗？

I could have stopped when we were at five minutes.

当我们进行到五分钟时我本可以停下来。

That would already have been fast enough.

那已经足够快了。

This was the argument on X, right?

这就是关于 X 的争论，对吗？

Why do you keep going?

你为什么还要继续走下去？

Five minutes is fast enough.

五分钟已经够快了。

Okay, maybe for you, but for me, 12 seconds is a lot more fun.

好吧，也许对你来说，但对我来说，12 秒更有趣。

And I always think, try to think these first principles.

我总是想，尝试思考这些首要原则。

Okay, in that machine, actually hit the Omarchy key again, and then do speed.

好吧，在那台机器上，实际上再次按下 Omarchy 键，然后进行速度。

You’ll see a list come up, and one of them is, like, disk speed.

您会看到出现一个列表，其中之一是磁盘速度。

Speed test, network speed, disk speed.

速度测试，网络速度，磁盘速度。

Disk speed.

磁盘速度。

1:56:37 Do that one, and then run it.

执行该操作，然后运行它。

So this is testing the performance of the built-in NVMe drive, and what are you getting?

这是测试内置 NVMe 驱动器的性能，您得到了什么？

Seven GB a second.

每秒 7 GB。

So seven gigabytes a second.

所以每秒七吉字节。

1:56:47 That’s how fast that drive is.

这就是驱动器的速度。

Why can we not install a Linux distribution in one second?

为什么我们不能在一秒钟内安装一个Linux发行版？

The Omarchy distribution is 5.8 gigabytes.

Omarchy 发行版大小为 5.8 GB。

If we can run at seven gig…

如果我们能运行七场演出……

Now, of course, you can’t actually do that because the USB key is a lot slower than that, but you should be able to maximize the underlying physics and protocols that we’re dealing with, and that’s your goal.

当然，现在您实际上无法做到这一点，因为 USB 密钥比这慢得多，但您应该能够最大化我们正在处理的底层物理和协议，这就是您的目标。

We gotta get all the way back down to that.

我们必须回到这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

1:57:15 I love that you’re doing a Linux distribution.

我喜欢你们正在制作 Linux 发行版。

‘Cause I mean, you could be do…

因为我的意思是，你可以做……

You could be building anything.

你可以建造任何东西。

But the fact that you’re building a Linux distribution means you’re rethinking about what a computer is, ’cause a operating system is the fundamental, like, the foundation of how-

但事实上，你正在构建一个 Linux 发行版，这意味着你正在重新思考计算机是什么，因为操作系统是基础，就像是如何运行的基础——

Yes

是的

…

……

1:57:32 you interact with a computer.

您与计算机交互。

Yes.

是的。

1:57:33 And it’s been so stale.

而且它已经如此陈旧了。

Yeah, it has.

是的，有。

The macOS we have today is scarcely different from the macOS we had 10 years ago.

我们今天的 macOS 与 10 年前的 macOS 几乎没有什么不同。

1:57:35 In fact, it’s worse in many ways because Apple continues to chokehold the control on users.

事实上，在很多方面情况都更糟，因为苹果继续扼杀对用户的控制。

They don’t want them to install software that they haven’t already said good- …

他们不希望他们安装他们还没有说好的软件——……

to go for.

去争取。

They don’t want users to reconfigure their hotkeys without doing it manually.

他们不希望用户在不手动操作的情况下重新配置热键。

They didn’t want to change the 500-millisecond animation switching workspaces.

他们不想改变 500 毫秒的动画切换工作空间。

It is an infuriatingly locked-down computer.

这是一台令人恼火的锁定计算机。

Now, to Apple’s credit, it’s a pretty good computer for being locked down, but I don’t want a locked-down computer.

现在，值得苹果称赞的是，它是一台非常适合锁定的计算机，但我不想要一台锁定的计算机。

I wanna own my computer.

我想拥有我的电脑。

Better yet, I wanna mutate my computer, and this is where the agentic age needs a new operating system.

更好的是，我想改变我的电脑，这就是代理时代需要新操作系统的地方。

1:58:24 When you can vibe code whatever app comes to your mind, you should be able to vibe code your operating system.

当您可以对您想到的任何应用程序进行振动编码时，您应该能够对您的操作系统进行振动编码。

You should be able to change anything, how it looks, how it works, what panels are there, what are not there, and that requires Linux.

你应该能够改变任何东西，它的外观、工作原理、有哪些面板、没有什么面板，而这需要 Linux。

As simple as that.

就这么简单。

There are no…

没有…

None of the other two operating systems can deliver this.

其他两个操作系统都无法提供这一点。

But can you speak to the, I think somebody asked you, like, “Who the hell are you to think you could do better than Ubuntu?” For example.

但我想有人问过你，你能说一下，“你到底是谁，认为你可以做得比 Ubuntu 更好？”例如。

1:58:41 Or like, “Why are you doing it when Ubuntu is already pretty good?” And your answer was, “I thought I could do better.” So can you speak to, this was on X, can you speak to, like, where the craziness comes from, thinking that you as one person or maybe with Ryan, you could start building something that’s going to be better than Ubuntu or Arch or any of this?

或者说，“既然 Ubuntu 已经很不错了，你为什么还要这么做呢？”你的回答是：“我认为我可以做得更好。”那么你能说一下，这是在 X 上，你能说一下，疯狂是从哪里来的，认为你作为一个人或者也许和 Ryan 一起，你可以开始构建一些比 Ubuntu 或 Arch 或任何其他更好的东西？

Well, I’ll say that it didn’t start quite as grandiose.

好吧，我会说它一开始并没有那么宏伟。

1:59:12 When I got going with my Linux journey, I actually just started with Ubuntu, and I just built on top of it.

当我开始我的 Linux 之旅时，我实际上刚刚开始使用 Ubuntu，并且我只是在它的基础上进行构建。

Here’s a system that already does a lot of the things I wanted to do, and at least it’s Linux.

这个系统已经做了很多我想做的事情，至少它是 Linux。

So can I just build on top of it and make it more modern, make it actually look good, and have the programs I wanna use?

那么我可以在它的基础上进行构建并使其更加现代，使其实际上看起来不错，并拥有我想要使用的程序吗？

I got, like, some version of that, and then I discovered that there’s seven layers deeper you could go, and as, the closer you get to the metal, the closer you get to the kernel, the closer you get to the individual packages and so forth, the more freedom you discover.

我得到了类似的版本，然后我发现你可以深入七层，而且，你越接近金属，越接近内核，越接近单个包等等，你发现的自由就越大。

1:59:47 So as I discovered more and more freedom, I got more and more ambitious, and I realized, oh, surprise, surprise, I have strong opinions about how computers should work, how they should look, what programs should be installed, and whether they should take 42 minutes to install or 45 seconds.

因此，当我发现越来越多的自由时，我变得越来越雄心勃勃，我意识到，哦，惊讶，惊讶，我对计算机应该如何工作、它们应该如何外观、应该安装什么程序以及安装它们是否应该花费 42 分钟或 45 秒有强烈的看法。

That’s the current world record, by the way.

顺便说一句，这是当前的世界纪录。

So if anyone installs Omarchy Quattro after this and can beat 45 seconds, take a screenshot, send it to me, and you’ll be the new holder of the world record.

因此，如果有人在这之后安装了 Omarchy Quattro，并且能够跑过 45 秒，请截图并发送给我，那么您将成为新的世界纪录保持者。

When—how long ago did you cross the 60-second mark?

您何时——多久前超过了 60 秒大关？

It’s funny because it’s like that the old limit on, what was it?

这很有趣，因为这就像旧的限制，它是什么？

2:00:19 It was a four-minute mile or something- …

这是四分钟一英里之类的——……

like that in 1952- …

就像1952年那样——……

that people thought was impossible for humans to beat.

人们认为人类不可能打败它。

Then one guy beats it, and literally within the next few months, three more guys do, right?

然后一个人打败了它，实际上在接下来的几个月内，另外三个人打败了它，对吗？

So we had this goal.

所以我们有这个目标。

I originally had the goal, it was two minutes.

我原本的目标是两分钟。

2:00:40 And then we beat two minutes, and I’m like, “Well, if we beat two minutes, why can’t we beat one minute?” And I remember thinking like, “That’d be crazy.

然后我们打败了两分钟，我想，“好吧，如果我们打败了两分钟，为什么我们不能打败一分钟呢？”我记得当时的想法是：“那太疯狂了。

You can’t install a modern operating system in one minute when they’re all…” If the other ones are taking 42 minutes, right?

你不可能在一分钟内安装一个现代操作系统，因为它们都是……”如果其他操作系统需要 42 分钟，对吗？

Like Apple, full of a lot of smart people, like, it took 42 minutes, so that’s gotta be the bar.

就像苹果公司一样，充满了很多聪明人，比如，花了 42 分钟，所以这就是酒吧。

No, no, it’s not the bar because there’s no speed limit.

不，不，这不是酒吧，因为没有速度限制。

Like, none of the things you take for granted are fixed pillars of reality in almost any case.

就像，几乎在任何情况下，你认为理所当然的事情都不是现实的固定支柱。

Until you get down to the seven gigabytes per second that drive is able to transfer, you’ve not reached the limit yet, so you should just keep pushing.

在驱动器能够传输的数据达到每秒 7 GB 之前，您还没有达到极限，因此您应该继续努力。

And of course, then it becomes a game in itself and a satisfaction itself.

当然，然后它本身就变成了一个游戏和一种满足感。

2:01:22 Every second I could shave off was an excitement.

我能刮掉的每一秒都是一种兴奋。

And when we broke the one-minute barrier, which was really only broken, I think, three weeks ago or something like that, maybe even two weeks ago, I just got crazy.

当我们打破一分钟的障碍时，我想，这实际上只是在三周前或类似的时间，甚至两周前被打破，我简直疯了。

And then I got a swarm of agents to run all these auto research loops of trying all these different theories on like, oh, if you change this thing, if you change that thing, what if you cut this out?

然后我让一群代理来运行所有这些汽车研究循环，尝试所有这些不同的理论，就像，哦，如果你改变这个东西，如果你改变那个东西，如果你把它删掉怎么办？

What if you do things in parallel?

如果你并行做事情怎么办？

What if while you were typing in your username, we start preloading packages into memory system, we can fire them in faster.

如果当您输入用户名时，我们开始将软件包预加载到内存系统中，我们可以更快地启动它们，该怎么办？

And it becomes a fun game.

这变成了一个有趣的游戏。

And I think that’s how you should think about product development.

我认为这就是你应该如何思考产品开发。

It should be fun.

这应该很有趣。

You should, it should be frivolous.

你应该，应该是轻率的。

2:01:57 It should be trying to overshoot the target and making it so much better than what it, quote unquote, needs to be.

它应该努力超越目标，并使其比实际需要的更好。

Especially now because you can move so quickly and you can try so many different approaches because of the agents.

尤其是现在，因为有了代理，您可以快速行动，并且可以尝试许多不同的方法。

Yes, that just makes it more satisfying.

是的，这只会让人更满足。

2:02:09 But I think this was always true.

但我认为这始终是正确的。

If you look at the greatest Mercedes-Benz of all time, I think it was called the W126.

如果你看看有史以来最伟大的梅赛德斯-奔驰，我认为它被称为 W126。

I saw this wonderful documentary on it.

我看过这部精彩的纪录片。

It was steered by this guy who for years had worked in Mercedes’ department for safety.

驾驶它的是这个多年来一直在梅赛德斯安全部门工作的人。

And suddenly he gets put in charge for the whole S-Class project, and he just puts in all of it.

突然间，他被任命负责整个 S 级项目，并且他将全部投入其中。

This is where you got the auto-retending seat belts and washers on the headlights and everything.

在这里你可以找到自动伸缩安全带、车头灯垫圈以及所有东西。

This car was so overbuilt for the market.

这辆车对于市场来说是过度建造的。

2:02:42 It was unbelievable.

这太令人难以置信了。

But you look at that and go like, “Well, I want that.” In just the same way that you look at a mechanical watch and go, “It could go down to 100 meters?” Or, or I think Rolex has one that can go down to 4,000 meters, the, the deep ocean, the deep diver ocean- …

但你看着它，然后说：“好吧，我想要那个。”就像你看着机械表时会问：“它能走深至 100 米吗？”或者，或者我认为劳力士有一款可以下潜到4000米，深海，深海潜水员的海洋——……

or whatever it’s called.

或无论它叫什么。

No one outside of three people in the world, whoever buy that watch, will ever put it to the test.

世界上除了三个人之外，没有人会去测试那块手表。

But don’t you wanna be the kind of person who is a patron of people who wanna push the human race that much forward?

但你难道不想成为那种想要推动人类进步的人们的赞助人吗？

I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits.

我想要最快的汽车突破速度限制。

I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench.

我想要一块可以潜入马里亚纳海沟的潜水表。

I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds.

我想要一个可以在 60 秒内安装的操作系统。

So from the individual level, I admire those people.

所以从个人层面来说，我很佩服那些人。

2:03:26 I think everybody should strive for that.

我认为每个人都应该为此努力。

But also the consequences of that we should mention, like the pursuit of excellence, even when the metrics seem to be frivolous, the maybe unexpected consequences of that is other kinds of excellences, discoveries, innovations, and all that kind of stuff that has nothing to do with the speed.

但我们也应该提到其后果，比如追求卓越，即使指标看起来很无聊，其可能意想不到的后果是其他类型的卓越、发现、创新，以及所有与速度无关的东西。

100%.

100%。

It’s discovery.

这是发现。

2:03:49 It’s nice to have the metric that you’re chasing be the catalyst, the engine that drives innovation, because you’ll just discover.

很高兴将您所追求的指标作为催化剂，推动创新的引擎，因为您很快就会发现。

It’s the same reason you go to the moon, you go to Mars.

这和你去月球、去火星的原因是一样的。

It’s like, why?

就像，为什么？

Who cares?

谁在乎？

Well, actually, the real thing is you’ll discover a lot about chemical propulsion.

嗯，实际上，真正的事情是你会发现很多关于化学推进的知识。

You’ll discover a lot about how humans can live for a long time in space.

您会发现很多关于人类如何在太空中长期生存的知识。

Maybe you’ll discover whole new ways of doing solar energy in space or data centers in space or whatever the hell.

也许你会发现在太空中使用太阳能或在太空中使用数据中心或其他什么的全新方法。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

All kinds of…

各种…

2:04:22 Maybe you’ll meet-

也许你会遇见——

That’s right.

没错。

…

……

2:04:23 aliens, but you never know.

外星人，但你永远不知道。

But setting a goal and chasing it, especially when it’s numerical, is really nice.

但设定一个目标并追逐它，尤其是当它是数字的时候，真的很好。

And setting a grand goal is even better.

设定一个宏伟的目标就更好了。

2:04:32 When you refuse to just do what’s practical and you strive for what’s slightly beyond plausible, that’s when the magic happens.

当你拒绝只做实用的事情，而努力追求稍微超出合理范围的事情时，魔法就会发生。

And we should be going all in on that.

我们应该全力以赴。

This is one of the reasons…

这是原因之一……

And in fact, to some degree, this specific goal was motivated by seeing others do this.

事实上，在某种程度上，这个特定目标是因为看到其他人这样做而激发的。

I mean, Elon is the singular individual in this conversation.

我的意思是，埃隆是这次谈话中唯一的一个人。

The guy is so out there in his goals.

这家伙的目标是如此远大。

They seem so preposterous at first glance.

乍一看，它们似乎很荒谬。

I’ve certainly considered them preposterous on many glances.

从很多角度来看，我确实认为它们是荒谬的。

And then you realize that they come true sometimes.

然后你意识到它们有时会实现。

Maybe not always on schedule, and so what?

也许并不总是按计划进行，那又怎样？

So what?

所以呢？

So we didn’t get the self-driving car on schedule.

所以我们没有如期得到自动驾驶汽车。

I gave Elon a lot of shit for that back in ’17.

早在 17 年，我就因为这件事对 Elon 骂了很多遍。

2:05:29 But now it’s here, and who would have gotten us here except for the person who thought it was possible in ’17, who is so impatient with reality that the sheer force is just gonna propel that reality to the place he wants it to be.

但现在它就在这里，除了那个在 17 年认为这是可能的人之外，谁会把我们带到这里，他对现实如此不耐烦，以至于纯粹的力量只会将现实推向他想要的地方。

I think that’s deeply inspiring, and we need these kinds of goalposts to be moved.

我认为这非常鼓舞人心，我们需要移动这些球门柱。

We need someone to run the four-minute mile, so the rest of us realize, “Well, okay, but I guess I can run it quicker.” That’s what I try to strive for, and I really strive for with Omarchy because it’s just more fun to live that way, to have high aspirations and ambitions.

我们需要有人跑完四分钟一英里，所以我们其他人意识到，“好吧，但我想我可以跑得更快。”这就是我努力争取的目标，我真的和奥马奇一起努力，因为这样的生活更有趣，有远大的抱负和抱负。

And I will say I’ve actually changed my mind on that a little bit.

我会说我实际上已经改变了一点想法。

I spent quite a lot of time speaking the other book that there are a lot of people who don’t actually need those ambitions.

我花了很多时间在另一本书上说，有很多人实际上并不需要这些雄心壮志。

2:06:22 And I also– That’s also true.

我也——这也是真的。

We don’t want 8 billion Elons running around the world.

我们不希望 80 亿埃隆在世界各地奔跑。

Would be rather crazy, I think.

我想这会相当疯狂。

But I’ve come to realize that for entrepreneurs, it’s healthy to have suitable chunky goals.

但我逐渐意识到，对于企业家来说，拥有合适的宏大目标是健康的。

The idea of just running the Italian restaurant can’t just be that.

仅仅经营一家意大利餐厅的想法不仅仅是这样。

It should be maybe I just run the one Italian restaurant, but I make the best damn pizza possible.

也许我只是经营一家意大利餐厅，但我做的披萨可能是最好的。

I make the most delicious Parmesan.

我做的帕尔马干酪最美味。

We have to strive for excellence to muster the motivation to keep going.

我们必须追求卓越，才能激发继续前进的动力。

And yeah, to dare to think big like you could build a Linux-

是的，敢于大胆思考，比如构建一个 Linux——

Yes.

是的。

…

…

2:07:05 distribution.

分配。

Is there some stuff you remember about what it took to get us to be so fast?

您是否记得一些关于我们如何做到如此快的事情？

You mentioned a few things that were, the agents were discovering.

你提到了特工们正在发现的一些事情。

One of the things was to treat the lag of human input as an opportunity to preload.

其中之一是将人类输入的滞后视为预加载的机会。

2:07:15 So there’s five questions you answer when you set up an Omarchy machine.

因此，当您设置 Omarchy 机器时，您需要回答五个问题。

So it’s doing stuff in the background.

所以它在后台做一些事情。

We’re doing stuff in the background.

我们正在后台做一些事情。

And that was one of the things I didn’t even consider, which is, I mean, the oldest trick in the book.

这是我什至没有考虑到的事情之一，我的意思是，这是书中最古老的技巧。

All sorts of video games for a long time have done this, where you let the player interact with something, and then you do preloading and so forth in the background.

很长一段时间以来，各种视频游戏都这样做，让玩家与某些东西进行交互，然后在后台进行预加载等等。

So it’s an age-old technique, but I just hadn’t thought about it for an installer.

所以这是一种古老的技术，但我只是没有为安装人员考虑过它。

2:07:45 I thought, first you ask the user some questions about their password and their username and their time zone and so forth, and then you do the work, when, in fact, you could preload that.

我想，首先你向用户询问一些有关他们的密码、用户名和时区等的问题，然后你就开始工作，事实上，你可以预加载它。

Now, the other things were just a bunch of other tweaks to how the installer itself was doing things in a certain order.

现在，其他的事情只是对安装程序本身如何按特定顺序执行操作的一系列其他调整。

Some of them was also just shrinking it.

他们中的一些人也只是缩小了它。

The last version of Omarchy was 7.5 gigabytes, and a lot of the time we’re down to now is literally decompressing compressed package files.

Omarchy 的最后一个版本有 7.5 GB，到目前为止我们很多时候都是在解压压缩包文件。

That’s the bulk of what the- is on the ISO, and that’s the bulk of the install time.

这是 ISO 上的大部分内容，也是安装时间的大部分。

So by shrinking it down to, I think we’re at 5.85 gigabytes now, a pretty chunky reduction, it almost literally translated one-to-one, and I did some really interesting things there.

因此，通过将其缩小到，我认为我们现在达到了 5.85 GB，这是一个相当大的减少，它几乎是逐字翻译的，我在那里做了一些非常有趣的事情。

2:08:30 So Omarchy uses the JetBrains font, which is an awesome font, beautiful font, and actually a font I didn’t like at first glance, but then it was the only font I could get to look perfect in Mitchell Hashimoto’s Ghostty.

因此，Omarchy 使用了 JetBrains 字体，这是一种很棒的字体，漂亮的字体，实际上我乍一看并不喜欢这种字体，但后来它是我在 Mitchell Hashimoto 的 Ghostty 中唯一能看起来完美的字体。

Ghostty, for whatever reason, did not wanna render my beloved Bitstream Vera Sans just the way I was used to it.

无论出于何种原因，Ghostty 不想按照我习惯的方式呈现我心爱的 Bitstream Vera Sans。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But it rendered this JetBrains font perfectly, so I switched over.

但它完美地呈现了这个 JetBrains 字体，所以我换了过来。

But it…

但它……

The standard package for JetBrains font on Arch is 200 megabytes because it includes all these variations and all these subtypes and whatever.

Arch 上 JetBrains 字体的标准包为 200 MB，因为它包含所有这些变体和所有这些子类型等等。

And I realized, like, we’re not using any of that.

我意识到，我们没有使用其中任何一个。

We’re using the monospace version in this one Nerd Font patched edition.

我们在这个 Nerd Font 修补版本中使用等宽字体版本。

Do you know how big that is?

你知道那有多大吗？

I think it’s 16 megabytes.

我认为是 16 兆字节。

Hmm.

唔。

2:09:21 So I simply just came up with a new package, the slim version- Mm-hmm …

所以我只是想出了一个新的包装，超薄版本——嗯嗯……

of the JetBrains package.

JetBrains 包的。

Nice.

好的。

And there, right there, I saved 180 megabytes.

就在那里，就在那里，我节省了 180 兆字节。

I just went through and did that a bunch of times.

我刚刚经历过并做了很多次。

We did that with the NVIDIA drivers too.

我们对 NVIDIA 驱动程序也这样做了。

So the NVIDIA drivers, when they came straight off the, I think the Arch repo, were not compressed with the most extreme form of compression, which I think called ZSTD, which is a really slow form of compression.

因此，当 NVIDIA 驱动程序直接来自 Arch 存储库时，它们并没有采用最极端的压缩形式进行压缩，我认为这种压缩形式称为 ZSTD，这是一种非常缓慢的压缩形式。

It’s slow to create the archive, but if you’re building a package- Hmm …

创建存档的速度很慢，但如果您正在构建一个包 - 嗯......

you have all the time in the world if that means you can then shrink the ISO.

如果这意味着你可以缩小 ISO，你就有足够的时间了。

So on just the two NVIDIA packages, I think we saved 200 megabytes.

因此，仅在两个 NVIDIA 软件包上，我认为我们就节省了 200 MB。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So what I loved about this was I imagined myself being a car designer at McLaren.

所以我喜欢这个的原因是我想象自己是迈凯伦的一名汽车设计师。

2:10:06 So McLaren makes some of the lightest super sports cars in the world right now, and they are absolutely obsessed with shaving every damn last gram off their cars.

因此，迈凯伦目前正在制造一些世界上最轻的超级跑车，并且他们绝对痴迷于削减汽车的最后一克重量。

That’s why even a new 750S McLaren is just way lighter than the competition.

这就是为什么新款 750S 迈凯伦也比竞争对手轻得多。

They use a carbon fiber monocoque, and that helps them over like Ferrari, for example, that uses aluminum.

他们使用碳纤维硬壳式车身，这有助于他们像法拉利一样使用铝制车身。

But they also just have this obsession with weight, and I would see this interview with the McLaren folks talking to some journalist just going over, “Yeah, we saved 370 grams off that one.” And I just went, “Wait, what?

但他们也对重量有这种痴迷，我会看到迈凯伦人员在接受采访时与一些记者交谈，“是的，我们减轻了 370 克。”我只是说：“等等，什么？

There’s someone on a car that weighs maybe 1,040 kilos or 1,380 or something.

一辆汽车上有人，重量可能有 1,040 公斤或 1,380 公斤之类的。

They’re worrying about 370 grams?” Yeah.

他们在担心 370 克吗？”是的。

What obsessed maniacs.

多么痴迷的疯子。

Yeah.

是的。

I love them.

我爱他们。

Yeah.

是的。

I want that in my life.

我希望在我的生活中如此。

2:11:02 I want a McLaren just for that reason.

出于这个原因，我想要一辆迈凯伦。

So I thought in that moment as I was shaving individual megabytes off the packages, man, I’m kinda like a McLaren car developer here, even though I mean, we haven’t even completed that work.

因此，当我从软件包中削减单个兆字节时，我想，伙计，我有点像这里的迈凯伦汽车开发人员，尽管我的意思是，我们甚至还没有完成这项工作。

The package could shrink even more.

包装可能会缩小得更多。

But this is actually this other conflict that we’ve had with Omarchy and the traditional Linux community is bloat.

但这实际上是我们与 Omarchy 之间的另一场冲突，而传统的 Linux 社区已经臃肿不堪。

This idea that it’s actually not kosher in certain circles to ship with pre-installed software because who are you to make decisions about what programs people should use?

这种想法认为，在某些圈子里附带预装软件实际上是不合规矩的，因为你是谁来决定人们应该使用哪些程序？

And I’m like, “Dude, it’s in the fucking name.

我想，“伙计，这就是他妈的名字。

It’s called Omarchy because the Oma part is short for omakase, which literally means chef’s choice.

之所以称为 Omarchy，是因为 Oma 部分是 omakase 的缩写，字面意思是厨师的选择。

I’m the chef.

我是厨师。

2:11:47 I’m making the choices, and this is the collection of applications I think is awesome,” which by the way has a video editor.

我正在做出选择，这是我认为非常棒的应用程序集合，”顺便说一下，它有一个视频编辑器。

It ships with OBS to do your recording.

它与 OBS 一起提供来进行录音。

It’s just in there.

它就在那里。

Yeah.

是的。

OBS is pre-installed.

预装OBS。

Nice.

好的。

Kdenlive is a video editor, timeline editor, which is great.

Kdenlive 是一个视频编辑器、时间线编辑器，非常棒。

I edit all my videos with that.

我用它编辑我所有的视频。

And then I made my own clip editor.

然后我制作了自己的剪辑编辑器。

You talked about the thing with syncing up.

你谈到了同步的事情。

Yeah.

是的。

I had this thing with clips, so I would do a podcast or whatever.

我有一个带有剪辑的东西，所以我会做一个播客或其他什么。

I need a clip for X.

我需要 X 的剪辑。

And it’s kind of a hassle to use Kdenlive or other timeline editors, so I made Omacut.

而且使用 Kdenlive 或其他时间轴编辑器有点麻烦，所以我制作了 Omacut。

Omacut is included too.

Omacut 也包括在内。

Omacut, cool.

奥马库特，酷。

It’s just for making clips, and you can drive the whole thing with keyboard.

它只是用于制作剪辑，你可以用键盘驱动整个东西。

So you can go to just the right time mark.

这样您就可以到达正确的时间标记。

2:12:25 and then you can hit Control + Space.

然后你可以按 Control + Space。

It moves the clip line to that line.

它将剪辑线移动到该线。

Then you go to the end of the clip, and you hit Alt + Space, and it moves the end line.

然后转到剪辑的末尾，按 Alt + Space，它会移动结束线。

Nice.

好的。

And then you hit Control + S, and it saves.

然后你按 Control + S，它就保存了。

Nice.

好的。

I can make clips so damn fast now with Omacut.

我现在可以用 Omacut 快速制作剪辑了。

It’s amazing.

太棒了。

But it has all the software on it.

但它上面有所有的软件。

It has Neovim on it.

它上面有 Neovim。

It has Herdr on it.

上面有 Herdr。

It has Tmux.

它有 Tmux。

It has a terminal.

它有一个终端。

It has a bunch of themes.

它有很多主题。

It has a bunch of background images, the best ones I could pick out.

它有一堆背景图片，是我能选出的最好的。

That takes up some space.

这会占用一些空间。

It should because this is not supposed to be this just barren landscape where you have to reconstruct everything.

应该是这样，因为这不应该是一片贫瘠的土地，你必须重建一切。

This is supposed to be a productive system the minute you unpack it.

当您打开包装时，这应该是一个高效的系统。

What is it built in?

它内置了什么？

2:13:05 So it’s actually mostly built in Bash for the Linux configuration part.

所以它实际上主要是用 Bash 构建的 Linux 配置部分。

Right.

正确的。

Bash is a great language for that.

Bash 是一种很棒的语言。

It is made for that really, for system administration.

它确实是为了系统管理而设计的。

It also has its limitations.

它也有其局限性。

You should not build everything in Bash.

您不应该在 Bash 中构建所有内容。

How are agents with generating Bash?

代理生成 Bash 的情况如何？

2:13:21 Pretty good?

不错？

Oh, amazing.

哦，太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Except for one thing, and I have to smack the agents over the back of the head every single time I catch it, and remind it to look at the agent’s MD file, because I will have an instruction in there not to make early exits.

除了一件事之外，每次我抓住它时，我都必须拍打特工的后脑勺，并提醒它查看特工的 MD 文件，因为里面会有一条指示，不要提前退出。

2:13:24 The agents love to have preconditions instead of fully expanded conditionals.

代理喜欢有先决条件而不是完全扩展的条件。

I like something that says, “If this, then do that.” Agents like to have precondition or exit, another precondition or exit.

我喜欢这样一句话：“如果这样，那就那样做。”代理人喜欢有先决条件或退出，另一个先决条件或退出。

2:13:53 And then it falls down to the final thing it actually wants to do.

然后它就归结为它真正想做的最后一件事。

I hate that style.

我讨厌那种风格。

So except for that, it’s gotten shockingly, dramatically, awesomely good, to the point where when we talked last time, we talked about how I would ask the agent for a Bash thing, and then I would type it in myself, and I kinda wouldn’t remember.

所以除此之外，它变得令人震惊、戏剧性、非常好，以至于我们上次谈话时，我们讨论了如何向代理询问 Bash 的东西，然后我会自己输入它，但我有点不记得了。

And then I took the effort to make sure that all that competence wasn’t draining out of my fingers, so I actually learned how to write Bash myself, and now I’m not writing any Bash myself.

然后我努力确保所有这些能力都不会从我的手指中流失，所以我实际上学会了如何自己编写 Bash，现在我自己不再编写任何 Bash。

I have not written any Bash myself for probably a couple months, because the agents have just gotten so good, that if you give them the few pointers on style, and occasionally put pushback on complexity…

我自己可能已经有几个月没有写过任何 Bash 了，因为代理已经变得非常好，如果你给他们一些关于风格的指导，偶尔在复杂性上提出一些建议……

This is…

这是……

I tweeted about this a couple of days ago.

几天前我在推特上谈到了这个问题。

2:14:32 It blows my mind how often an agent can do something, say it’s done, have the work reviewed by another agent- …

令我震惊的是，一个代理人经常做某事，说它已经完成，让另一个代理人审查工作——……

they say it’s done, and then I go like, “Eh, looks a little too complicated for me.” And then it’ll go like, “Oh, yeah, you’re right.

他们说已经完成了，然后我就说，“呃，对我来说看起来有点太复杂了。”然后它会这样说：“哦，是的，你是对的。

You’re right.

你是对的。

I totally overcomplicated this,” and it’ll cut it in half.

我把这个搞得太复杂了”，它会把它减半。

I’m like, “Couldn’t it just do this, like, from the outset?” And then someone else reminded me, humans are the same way.

我想，“难道不能从一开始就这样做吗？”然后有人提醒我，人类也是如此。

If you work on something and someone else reviews it and they just are like, “Eh, it looks a little complicated,” quite often you’re able to go like, “Ah, you’re right.”

如果你在做某件事，而其他人评论了它，他们只是说，“呃，它看起来有点复杂”，那么你通常会说，“啊，你是对的。”

See, that just…

你看，那只是……

2:15:05 Those little indications to me show that the programmer is still needed, that intuition, ’cause I think, what did you say?

这些小迹象对我来说表明仍然需要程序员，那种直觉，因为我想，你说什么？

I have a sense of the landscape of the code.

我对代码的景观有一定的了解。

When I build something like Omarchy, I do look at the code.

当我构建像 Omarchy 这样的东西时，我会查看代码。

2:15:17 I look at the shape.

我看形状。

Yeah.

是的。

And I look at the proportions.

我看比例。

Yeah.

是的。

Like, I don’t have to chisel everything myself anymore.

就像，我不必再自己凿一切东西了。

2:15:24 This is, again, when I’m flattering myself for…

这又是我自吹自擂的时候……

Not one moment I’m a McLaren auto engineer, and the next moment I’m a da Vinci, working with his whole studio of students- …

前一刻我是迈凯轮汽车工程师，下一刻我就是达芬奇，与他的整个工作室的学生一起工作——……

who are doing all the chiseling on the, the fine marble, right?

谁在精美的大理石上进行所有的凿刻工作，对吧？

And he goes like, “Ah, no, the proportions are not quite right.” That’s how it feels working with agents now, that I can give feedback like an editor.

他说：“啊，不，比例不太正确。”这就是现在与代理商合作的感觉，我可以像编辑一样提供反馈。

2:15:50 That, do you know what?

那，你知道什么吗？

I’m not gonna write everything myself, but I can tell you when the argument doesn’t land.

我不会自己写下所有内容，但当争论不成立时我可以告诉你。

I can tell you when the shape isn’t proportional to the problem, or when it just feels like it’s too complicated.

我可以告诉你什么时候形状与问题不成比例，或者什么时候感觉太复杂。

And shockingly often, it just works.

令人震惊的是，它常常奏效。

It’s like the early days, where the joke was, “Don’t make mistakes.” I don’t think you have to tell the agents that anymore, because now the harnesses are so good, they run automated testing.

就像早期的笑话一样，“不要犯错误”。我认为你不必再告诉代理了，因为现在的安全带非常好，他们可以运行自动化测试。

They get that feedback.

他们得到反馈。

But you actually do have to tell them, “Make it simpler.”

但你实际上必须告诉他们，“让它变得更简单。”

Do you use voice at all for the interaction?

您是否使用语音进行交互？

2:16:19 Or are you…

或者你是……

How much are you typing?

你打字多少？

How much are you-

你多少钱——

I type the whole thing.

我把整个内容都写下来。

2:16:23 I actually, in Omarchy’s built-in Voxtype- …

事实上，我在 Omarchy 的内置 Voxtype 中-...

Audio transcription, and it’s actually really good.

音频转录，实际上非常好。

I just find that I don’t think that way, and it surprised myself that I don’t like to talk to the computer.

我只是发现我不这么想，我自己也很惊讶我不喜欢和电脑说话。

I like when I’m in the car, but when I’m in front of the keyboard, I just wanna type.

我喜欢在车里的时候，但是当我在键盘前时，我只想打字。

I also just love typing.

我也只是喜欢打字。

Are you using the voice?

你用的是语音吗？

I’m an introvert who doesn’t like social interaction- …

我是一个性格内向的人，不喜欢社交……

2:16:46 or speaking.

或说话。

And-

还有——

I think that’s part of mine too.

我想这也是我的一部分。

But, like, for me, for some reason, voice is really powerful.

但是，对我来说，出于某种原因，声音真的很强大。

2:16:53 I want to give this…

我想给这个……

So I run with this thing.

所以我就带着这个东西跑。

It’s called Plaud.

这叫普劳德。

So I just hook it up on my, you know on my T-shirt here.

所以我只是把它挂在我的 T 恤上。

2:17:05 You press a button, it starts recording.

你按下一个按钮，它就开始录音。

And this is actually more, in terms of flow, much better experience than behind a computer.

就流程而言，这实际上比在计算机后面有更好的体验。

And I save, well, usually it’s agent generated problems that I wanna really talk through.

我保存，嗯，通常是代理产生的问题，我想真正讨论一下。

And so I write, I speak a long prompt, like, and a lot of it, it’s like stream of consciousness reasoning.

所以我写，我说一个很长的提示，很多，就像意识流推理。

So I’ll sometimes just change my mind about a design, but all of that is in there, and then I have an LLM that processes that.

所以有时我会改变我对设计的想法，但所有这些都在那里，然后我有一个法学硕士来处理它。

With Plaud, there’s a, obviously an API.

对于 Plaud，显然有一个 API。

You can grab it, transcribe it, clean up the transcript, ’cause you want it to be…

你可以抓住它，转录它，清理转录本，因为你想要它......

‘Cause I’m referring to files.

因为我指的是文件。

I’m referring to technical concepts, like files and functions- …

我指的是技术概念，比如文件和函数——……

and so on, that you wanna make sure the transcription, the-

等等，你想确保转录，-

2:17:56 …

……

the speech-to-text gets correctly.

语音到文本的转换正确。

So you wanna have a dictionary.

所以你想要一本字典。

You want it to be aware of the code base when you process the files.

您希望它在处理文件时了解代码库。

And then you have this gigantic thing that’s often 10, 15, 20 minute me discussing the full design, and I find that to be really, really powerful.

然后你就会看到这个巨大的事情，我通常会花 10、15、20 分钟讨论完整的设计，我发现这真的非常非常强大。

Because it doesn’t have the problem of overspecification because of how much stream of consciousness thinking the system has about what you’re imagining.

因为它不存在过度规范的问题，因为系统对你的想象有多少意识流。

And this is really good for the early steps of a design.

这对于设计的早期步骤确实很有好处。

Like, if I wanted to build Omarchy from scratch, the first stages, I talk through.

就像，如果我想从头开始构建 Omarchy，我会在第一阶段进行讨论。

It could be an hour.

可能要一个小时。

There’s been prompts that I had for an hour, and I’m just running and-

我已经有一个小时的提示了，我只是跑着——

That’s amazing.

太棒了。

…

……

2:18:40 and speaking.

和说话。

I highly recommend people try a voice-based-

我强烈建议人们尝试基于语音的-

So-

所以——

…

……

2:18:48 speaking for prolonged periods of time.

长时间讲话。

I haven’t actually-

我其实还没有——

As opposed to very specific…

与非常具体的相反……

…

……

2:18:52 I haven’t, yeah, I haven’t used it like that, and maybe that’s how I’m using it wrong.

我没有，是的，我没有这样使用过它，也许这就是我使用它的错误方式。

I try to just type or speak two sentences, and then I get a little frustrated that I could’ve typed that just as fast, maybe.

我尝试只输入或说出两个句子，然后我有点沮丧，因为我可能可以同样快地输入这句话。

But I have not tried this whole thing of just talking continuously for 20 minutes.

但我还没有尝试过连续说话 20 分钟的整个过程。

And especially you because you speak very fast.

尤其是你，因为你说得很快。

Yeah.

是的。

2:19:12 No, I could see it.

不，我可以看到它。

I think because the reason I’ve been trying to do it for things like replying to emails, and it got to a point where I thought it could help.

我想是因为我一直在尝试这样做，比如回复电子邮件之类的事情，而且我认为它可以有所帮助。

And it sort of did, but then it would make a small mistake, and I’d have to correct the mistake.

它确实做到了，但是它会犯一个小错误，我必须纠正这个错误。

But if you’re doing stream of consciousness to an LLM who doesn’t care about all this other stuff anyway— …

但如果你正在为一个不关心所有其他事情的法学硕士做意识流——……

that probably works way better.

这可能效果更好。

There’s two things you have to do.

有两件事你必须做。

2:19:34 One, okay, you have the raw audio, transcribes it.

一，好吧，你有原始音频，转录它。

I use ElevenLabs for transcription.

我使用 ElevenLabs 进行转录。

They’re probably the best speech-to-text model.

它们可能是最好的语音到文本模型。

There’s still mistakes there, so you need to have a prompt that has access to a dictionary and to a lot of—

那里仍然存在错误，所以你需要有一个可以访问字典和很多的提示——

How do you build the dictionary?

你如何建立字典？

First of all, there’s a dictionary of terms that are relevant to you.

首先，有一本与您相关的术语词典。

2:19:52 Then have it aware of…

然后让它意识到……

So you have an agent that looks through, when you’re talking about code, looks through your entire code base for key terms that you use often.

因此，当您谈论代码时，您有一个代理可以查看整个代码库以查找您经常使用的关键术语。

Also, when we’re talking about messaging, Gmail, and WhatsApp, and so on, it’s aware of all the people and common terms that you get wrong.

此外，当我们谈论消息、Gmail 和 WhatsApp 等时，它会意识到您弄错的所有人员和常见术语。

You’ve really gone deep in this.

你在这方面确实已经深入了。

That, to me, is a problem that needs to be solved-

对我来说，这是一个需要解决的问题——

Yes.

是的。

…

……

2:20:15 because one of the issues you probably have with speech-to-text is that it makes mistakes sometimes.

因为语音转文本可能会遇到的问题之一是它有时会出错。

Correct.

正确的。

2:20:22 Then I can’t use it for dictating an email.

然后我就不能用它来听写电子邮件了。

Right.

正确的。

2:20:25 If it never makes mistakes, you-

如果它从不犯错误，那么你——

Then it would be more appealing.

那么它会更有吸引力。

Yeah, and you are okay being not perfectly real time, actually.

是的，实际上，不完全实时也没关系。

2:20:29 You’re okay waiting five seconds-

你等五秒钟就可以了-

Right.

对。

…

……

2:20:35 potentially.

潜在的。

I don’t know what your use case is.

我不知道你的用例是什么。

I’m okay waiting five seconds- …

我可以等五秒钟-...

10 seconds for it to process everything.

它需要 10 秒来处理所有内容。

You gotta vibe code this into an app that does all of this such that-

你必须将其编码到一个应用程序中，该应用程序可以完成所有这些操作，以便-

Right.

对。

…

……

2:20:46 it just works.

它就是有效的。

I think I mentioned to you offline that it’s very surprising to me that translation is not done perfectly.

我想我在线下曾向您提到过，翻译的不完美让我感到非常惊讶。

Right.

正确的。

Speech-to-speech translation.

语音到语音翻译。

It seems like you’ve gotten much closer to the best of what’s possible by putting all these things together.

通过将所有这些事情放在一起，您似乎已经离最好的可能更近了。

But, you know, when you’re shipping that kind of stuff, you do have to start thinking about latency.

但是，你知道，当你运送这类东西时，你确实必须开始考虑延迟。

Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of good.

不要让完美成为美好的敌人。

2:21:11 I mean, if you’re suddenly enabling something people wouldn’t be doing before at all, it’s okay to take five seconds longer.

我的意思是，如果你突然启用了人们以前根本不会做的事情，那么多花五秒钟是可以的。

I think this is one of the areas that Steve Jobs was so good, that he realized, like, the first iPhone was terrible in all sorts of ways, right?

我认为这是史蒂夫·乔布斯非常擅长的领域之一，他意识到，第一部 iPhone 在各个方面都很糟糕，对吧？

Absolutely horrendously slow data connection, very underpowered, all the things.

数据连接速度绝对慢得可怕，动力非常不足，所有这些。

But the product was so compelling that it just didn’t matter.

但该产品是如此引人注目，以至于这并不重要。

You’d be shipping too late if you waited until everything was just right, just perfect.

如果你等到一切都恰到好处、完美无缺才发货，那你就太晚了。

If you’re solving a problem that people currently don’t have a solution for, they’re willing to give it five seconds.

如果你正在解决人们目前无法解决的问题，他们愿意给它五秒钟。

2:21:49 If you’re in a competitive market, yeah, okay, it’s different.

如果你处于竞争市场，是的，好吧，那就不同了。

But that means the problem’s already solved, and you don’t need to solve it.

但这意味着问题已经解决了，你不需要解决它。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

2:21:54 Well, I do think there’s a few…

嗯，我确实认为有一些……

So, like, Whisper flow is really good.

所以，像 Whisper flow 真的很好。

A few people have stepped up that speech-to-text thing.

有些人已经加强了语音转文本的工作。

Yeah.

是的。

2:22:02 Yeah, we’re using VoxType.

是的，我们正在使用 VoxType。

VoxType?

沃克斯类型？

But others have-

但其他人却——

VoxType is open source?

VoxType 是开源的吗？

It is.

这是。

2:22:07 It’s just using one of the open models.

它只是使用一种开放模型。

I forget which parrot model it’s using or something like that.

我忘记它使用的是哪种鹦鹉模型或类似的东西。

It works quite well for short commands, so I have used it for that.

它对于短命令非常有效，所以我就用它来实现。

I think you just hold down F9- …

我认为你只需按住 F9-...

and it starts a dictation.

然后它开始听写。

Oh, so it’s already in there?

哦，那么它已经在那里了？

You just have to get online.

您只需要上网即可。

2:22:23 It’ll offer you to install- …

它会提示您安装-...

the VoxType package.

VoxType 包。

Because the VoxType package includes a model that’s 150 megabytes, and I was like, “Ah.” “I don’t know if I can carry that.” So- …

因为 VoxType 包中包含一个 150 MB 的模型，我当时就想，“啊。” “我不知道我是否可以携带它。”所以——……

we don’t have that in there by default, but we have the option set up.

默认情况下我们没有这个选项，但我们设置了这个选项。

And I actually just yesterday was thinking we really need to combine all of these things.

实际上我昨天还在想我们真的需要将所有这些东西结合起来。

So Omarchy Quattro is truly amazing as a malleable operating system where you can add functionality to it just by talking to your agent.

因此，Omarchy Quattro 作为一个可延展的操作系统确实令人惊叹，您只需与您的代理交谈即可为其添加功能。

2:22:56 But that’s exactly what we should be doing.

但这正是我们应该做的。

There’s a lot of people who would find it very natural just to talk to their computer and say, “Hey, can you make me a stock panel?

有很多人会觉得很自然地对着他们的计算机说：“嘿，你能为我制作一个库存面板吗？

I wanna track Apple and Dell,” and just see the agent go off through, entirely through voice, both in terms of the input and in terms of the output, and then your operating system just changes.

我想跟踪苹果和戴尔”，然后看到代理完全通过语音，无论是输入还是输出，然后你的操作系统就会发生变化。

This was the vision of Iron Man and Jarvis and-

这是钢铁侠和贾维斯的愿景，而且——

2:23:23 …

……

bespoke applications that just appear magically.

神奇地出现的定制应用程序。

I’m thinking the area of AI I find truly intriguing are these live gaming models, I don’t know if you’ve seen that, where the AI’s inventing literally the next frame, but you can actually play the game.

我认为真正有趣的人工智能领域是这些实时游戏模型，我不知道你是否见过，人工智能实际上正在发明下一帧，但你实际上可以玩游戏。

And I think if they’re able to do that, why can’t we do that with our operating system?

我认为如果他们能够做到这一点，为什么我们不能用我们的操作系统做到这一点？

Why can’t we just talk to it and ask it to be a different way or change, and it’ll all just change?

为什么我们不能直接与它交谈并要求它以不同的方式或改变，然后一切都会改变？

I think this, by the way, is one of the other breakthroughs that is going to lead to the total domination of Linux.

顺便说一句，我认为这是导致 Linux 完全统治的其他突破之一。

The agents have taken all the hardship out of diagnosing Linux systems and turned the fact that Linux produces these overly specific, totally arcane error messages into its greatest advantage.

这些代理已经消除了诊断 Linux 系统的所有困难，并将 Linux 产生这些过于具体、完全神秘的错误消息的事实转化为它的最大优势。

2:24:12 When Linux has an issue, the agent can take that very specific error message that makes no sense to a normal human and correlate it with the fact that the agent was pre-trained on 40 million lines of Linux code, so it knows exactly where to look and dial it down.

当 Linux 出现问题时，代理可以获取对普通人来说毫无意义的非常具体的错误消息，并将其与代理在 4000 万行 Linux 代码上进行预训练的事实相关联，因此它确切地知道在哪里查找并解决问题。

I have not had a single problem on my Linux machine since the beginning of this year that an agent could not diagnose.

自今年年初以来，我的 Linux 机器上没有出现过代理无法诊断的问题。

That was not true a year and a half ago.

一年半前情况并非如此。

A year and a half ago, I was still searching on forums- …

一年半前，我还在论坛上搜索——……

to find answers to esoteric questions.

寻找深奥问题的答案。

2:24:45 Now the agents know the source code of not just the Linux operating system, but every single piece of software I have on that box.

现在，特工们不仅知道 Linux 操作系统的源代码，还知道我在那个盒子上的每一个软件的源代码。

The agent has access to the source code of all of it.

代理可以访问所有内容的源代码。

In fact, this was one thing I built in just before we shipped.

事实上，这是我在发货之前内置的一件事。

So once you set up your default agent- …

因此，一旦您设置了默认代理 - ...

Omarchy Quattro has a crash watcher.

Omarchy Quattro 有一个崩溃观察器。

If any app on your machine crashes, it’ll pop up a little thing, ask you whether you want your AI to diagnose the problem.

如果你机器上的任何应用程序崩溃了，它会弹出一个小东西，询问你是否希望你的人工智能来诊断问题。

Yeah.

是的。

2:25:13 That’s amazing.

太棒了。

Unbelievable.

难以置信。

2:25:14 I’ve seen things where there’s an error in some subsystem.

我见过一些子系统出现错误的情况。

Some…

一些…

Not even Linux, just some app I installed.

甚至不是 Linux，只是我安装的一些应用程序。

The agents start digging through the logs and look up systemd log.

代理开始挖掘日志并查找 systemd 日志。

Then it checks out the damn source code.

然后它检查该死的源代码。

Of the application that crashed, pins down that it’s in this Rust file line 472 that there’s an unbounded, unwrapped variable that overflowed or whatever it is.

在崩溃的应用程序中，确定在 Rust 文件第 472 行中有一个无界、未包装的变量溢出或无论它是什么。

Then offers you whether you wanna file a bug report with all this detail.

然后告诉您是否要提交包含所有这些详细信息的错误报告。

I’ll give you one amazing anecdote.

我会给你讲一件令人惊奇的轶事。

So I was working with this guy JDX, who’s working on mise.

所以我和 JDX 一起工作，他正在研究 mise。

This, this package manager for fast-moving development tools.

这个，这个用于快速移动开发工具的包管理器。

This is how we manage all the agent software and so forth.

这就是我们管理所有代理软件等的方式。

Normal package managers are not built to be updated seven times a day.

普通的包管理器并不是每天更新七次。

2:26:04 And all of these agent harnesses are updated about seven times a day, so we needed an out-of-band package manager, and mise just turns out to be perfect for this.

所有这些代理工具每天大约更新七次，因此我们需要一个带外包管理器，而事实证明 mise 非常适合此目的。

Anyway, it had a small bug.

无论如何，它有一个小错误。

There was some race condition which agents are very good at finding because when you start running multiple agents at the same time, they will suss out all these race conditions you have in your underlying infrastructure that was never triggered by a human trying to do manual thing.

代理非常擅长发现一些竞争条件，因为当您开始同时运行多个代理时，它们会找出底层基础设施中的所有这些竞争条件，而这些条件永远不会由人类尝试执行手动操作触发。

So it finds this issue, right?

所以它发现了这个问题，对吗？

I tell the agent, “Hey can you post this as a bug report to, to JDX’s GitHub?” And unfortunately, right before that, I had had to do a QA run on Omarchy itself with eight different agents.

我告诉代理：“嘿，您可以将其作为错误报告发布到 JDX 的 GitHub 上吗？”不幸的是，就在这之前，我不得不使用八个不同的代理对 Omarchy 本身进行 QA 运行。

It had found 28 real issues-

它发现了 28 个真正的问题——

2:26:48 …

……

that it needed to file.

它需要归档。

Well, it went to GitHub and tried to file all 28 issues at the same time, which it did in about I don’t know, 12 seconds.

嗯，它转到 GitHub 并尝试同时提交所有 28 个问题，大约用了 12 秒（我不知道）。

GitHub, not unreasonably, marked that as probable spam and banned- …

GitHub 将其标记为可能的垃圾邮件并被禁止，这并非没有道理——……

my Omarchy bot.

我的 Omarchy 机器人。

And then I couldn’t do that.

然后我就做不到了。

So I was blocked from the bot having access to GitHub, so I just told it, “Hey, do you know what?

所以我被阻止了机器人访问 GitHub，所以我只是告诉它，“嘿，你知道吗？

Just email JDX.

只需向 JDX 发送电子邮件即可。

Here’s his email address.” I had already set it up with hey.com- …

这是他的电子邮件地址。”我已经在 hey.com 上进行了设置-...

an email address.

电子邮件地址。

We have a CLI that’s in beta right now.

我们有一个 CLI 目前处于测试阶段。

2:27:20 So I set it up with that so it can send to email.

所以我对其进行了设置，以便它可以发送到电子邮件。

That’s how it gives me reports about outstanding issues and, and PR.

这就是它为我提供有关未决问题和公关的报告的方式。

So it sends JDX this email about the bug it found, and he was like, “Wait, this is the first time I’ve gotten a bug report in unreleased software.” Because it had downloaded the source code to mise, saw that he had already fixed the bug, but that it would not fix the problem entirely in software they had not shipped yet.

因此，它向 JDX 发送了这封有关其发现的错误的电子邮件，他说：“等等，这是我第一次收到未发布软件的错误报告。”因为它已经将源代码下载到mise，看到他已经修复了错误，但是它并不能完全修复他们尚未发布的软件中的问题。

Pinpointed the problem, and he was like, “Damn it- …

查明了问题所在，他就像是，“该死的——......

I got a bug report before we even cut a release.”

在我们发布版本之前，我就收到了错误报告。”

That’s amazing.

太棒了。

Un-

不-

That’s amazing

太棒了

…

……

2:27:54 believable AGI levels of mind-blowing stuff.

令人难以置信的令人难以置信的 AGI 水平。

And that was actually, y- if you remember, that was, that was an open question whether AI systems could debug well.

实际上，如果你还记得的话，那就是，人工智能系统是否能够很好地调试是一个悬而未决的问题。

2:27:58 That, that was kinda the, the, the thought that, yeah, sure, they can write code, but can they find issues and-

那，那有点，那，想法，是的，当然，他们可以编写代码，但是他们能发现问题并且-

They are so incredibly good at this, and this is actually interesting because I was on the perhaps same side of that, a little skeptical about can it reason about all these things.