Tobi Lütke on Creating Shopify for Americans as a German in Canada (Ep. 221)

Thank you to listener Maximilian Roos for sponsoring this transcript.

感谢听众马克西米利安·罗斯赞助这份文字记录。

TOBI LÜTKE: It’s so good to be here.

TOBI LÜTKE：来到这里真是太好了。

So good to see you, Tyler.

很高兴见到你，泰勒。

LÜTKE: Whenever we have hack days, I do them.

LÜTKE：每当我们有黑客日时，我都会这么做。

You know what?

你知道吗？

I feel they need to make a comeback.

我觉得他们需要东山再起。

The Friday afternoon stand-up meeting is just one of the greatest accelerants for businesses.

周五下午的站立会议只是企业最大的促进剂之一。

I’m highly encouraging everyone to do them.

我强烈鼓励每个人都这样做。

The digital version doesn’t work so well, does it?

数字版本不太好用，不是吗？

It’s some Slackbot or so telling everyone to stand up and type something.

这是一个 Slackbot 之类的东西，告诉每个人站起来输入一些东西。

It just doesn’t do the same thing.

它只是不做同样的事情。

It’s one of the problems with remote companies.

这是远程公司的问题之一。

LÜTKE: Out of meetings?

LÜTKE： 没有会议了？

I grew up as an outsider — as in, I have an outsider mindset, which is hard to argue from first principles at this point — in a small town in Germany that was super not interested in computing.

我是作为一个局外人长大的——也就是说，我有一种局外人的心态，这在这一点上很难从第一原则上反驳——在德国的一个小镇上，那里对计算非常不感兴趣。

I learned all sorts of skills for observing people doing interesting things from afar.

我学会了各种从远处观察人们做有趣事情的技能。

My lifeline back in those days was getting a copy of the back archives of the Linux kernel mailing list and so on.

那时我的生命线就是获取一份 Linux 内核邮件列表的旧档案副本等等。

This is how I learned C programming and so on.

我就是这样学习C编程等等的。

I grew up as an observer on information.

我是作为信息观察者长大的。

That’s what I do just for fun a lot.

这就是我所做的很多事情只是为了好玩。

Also, that means I grew up on the internet, which is good and bad.

另外，这意味着我是在互联网上长大的，这有好处也有坏处。

One of my ways to get a lot out of meetings often involves saying high-conviction, incorrect things, and just waiting and seeing everyone wanting to correct me.

我从会议中获得很多收获的方法之一就是经常说一些坚定的、不正确的事情，然后等待每个人都想纠正我。

It’s a more efficient way of —

这是一种更有效的方式 ——

LÜTKE: Yes, basically.

LÜTKE：是的，基本上。

It’s like saying something wrong on the internet.

就像在网上说错话一样。

Yes, it works in real life, too.

是的，它在现实生活中也有效。

It’s not people’s favorite thing that I do.

这不是人们最喜欢我做的事情。

We have a Wiki inside, and there’s a blueprint for me, and it says that I do this.

我们里面有一个维基百科，里面有一个我的蓝图，它说我会这样做。

Some people have reasonable warning these days.

这些天有些人有合理的警告。

LÜTKE: I don’t know.

卢克：我不知道。

I think porting what makes companies work too far into private lives can also backfire.

我认为，将公司过度劳累的因素移植到私人生活中也会适得其反。

With my kids, I always booked one-on-ones.

对于我的孩子，我总是预约一对一的。

They call them dinner appointments.

他们称之为晚餐约会。

I tell them, “I’m going to treat you as an adult, and we’re going to have an adult conversation until you say you’re a kid again, and I’m going to answer every one of your questions to the best of my abilities.” They choose some restaurant.

我告诉他们，“我会像对待成年人一样对待你，我们会进行成人对话，直到你说你又是个孩子了，我会尽我所能回答你的每一个问题。”他们选择了一些餐馆。

We go there, and that’s what we’ve done for a while.

我们去了那里，这就是我们已经做了一段时间的事情。

Of course, that’s cell phones down.

当然，这是手机没电了。

I think that’s an important thing to do.

我认为这是一件重要的事情。

With meetings inside of a company, we do a bunch of things.

通过公司内部的会议，我们会做很多事情。

We periodically delete all recurring meetings because it seems very hard for people to subtract.

我们定期删除所有定期会议，因为人们似乎很难删除它。

It’s very easy to add.

添加起来非常容易。

That only leads one way.

那只会导致一种方式。

We have ceremonies like this.

我们有这样的仪式。

It would be interesting, what would happen if everyone would have to zero some of their follow list.

有趣的是，如果每个人都必须将一些关注列表归零，会发生什么。

Zero budget their follow list.

零预算是他们的关注列表。

I think that would significantly change people’s experience with social media.

我认为这将显着改变人们使用社交媒体的体验。

I wonder if that’s a good idea.

我想知道这是否是一个好主意。

LÜTKE: What a fascinating observation.

LÜTKE：多么有趣的观察啊。

LÜTKE: It’s a Stammtisch, really.

LÜTKE：这真的是一个 Stammtisch。

I think in both those instances, people do something which I think has a lot of relevance to this real-life-versus-social-media conundrum that people are wrestling with, which is that I think there’s a significant human need — unacknowledged — for venting.

我认为在这两种情况下，人们所做的事情与人们正在努力解决的现实生活与社交媒体难题有很大关系，那就是我认为人类存在一种重要的发泄需求——“未被承认的”——发泄。

I think venting is one of those extremely important outlets.

我认为发泄是极其重要的出口之一。

It’s an original safe space in a way.

在某种程度上，这是一个原始的安全空间。

At some point, people say, “Okay.

在某些时候，人们会说：“好吧。

Well, you’re clearly off.” At least people say this to me.

好吧，你显然已经离开了。”至少人们对我这么说。

I can go pretty far in venting.

我可以在发泄方面走得很远。

Germans can be going very far.

德国人可以走得很远。

Stereotypes are funny because they often are true.

刻板印象很有趣，因为它们通常是真实的。

Venting, catastrophizing, these kinds of things, and then having your friends reel you in.

发泄，灾难化，诸如此类的事情，然后让你的朋友把你卷进去。

The issue I think we’ve seen, especially at the beginning of this decade, is people ported their venting online and then got their one take retweeted forever because it just captured the imagination.

我认为我们已经看到的问题是，尤其是在本世纪初，人们将自己的发泄内容转移到网上，然后永远转发他们的一条推文，因为它抓住了想象力。

I feel people misunderstood what was actually going on for a little bit.

我觉得人们有点误解了实际发生的事情。

I hope everyone has acclimatized to this reality now.

我希望现在每个人都已经适应了这个现实。

LÜTKE: Yes.

卢特克：是的。

I actually think even just talking about venting being a thing that’s actually good, and prefixing when someone just wants to actually say a bunch of things, like field-test some takes, is a good idea.

事实上，我认为即使只是谈论发泄也是一件实际上很好的事情，并且当有人只想真正说一堆事情（例如现场测试一些镜头）时加上前缀，也是一个好主意。

I think that can disable the power of it spiraling with everyone right after.

我认为这可以禁用它随后与每个人一起螺旋上升的力量。

I think that’s useful, but I don’t know.

我认为这很有用，但我不知道。

I didn’t go to it because it wasn’t in my neck of the woods, but I’ve seen parties or evenings organized now, where everyone gets a note with an outrageous position that they are supposed to represent for the rest of the evening.

我没有去参加，因为它不在我的范围内，但我现在看到有人组织聚会或晚会，每个人都会收到一张纸条，上面写着他们应该在晚上剩下的时间里代表的令人震惊的立场。

Then they’re supposed to tear it up and toss it away.

然后他们应该把它撕碎并扔掉。

Just to allow people to have plausible deniability of whatever they want to talk about because they just fall on, “Oh, I was told to represent this.”

只是为了让人们对他们想谈论的任何事情都有合理的否认，因为他们只是会说，“哦，我被告知要代表这个。”

I don’t know if it’s a good idea, but I love that someone is trying this because that seems like a social license to actually talk about stuff that otherwise can’t be talked about and seeing where it leads.

我不知道这是否是个好主意，但我喜欢有人尝试这样做，因为这似乎是一种社会许可，可以真正谈论原本无法谈论的事情，并看看它会带来什么结果。

Often, it leads to exactly the wrong place.

通常，它会导致完全错误的地方。

Then you get that out of your system, and you don’t need to share it as a tweet afterwards.

然后您将其从系统中删除，之后您无需将其作为推文共享。

On meeting culture

关于会议文化

LÜTKE: Yes.

卢特克：是的。

LÜTKE: I’m German.

卢克：我是德国人。

I grew up for 20 years in Germany.

我在德国长大了20年。

I then moved to Canada.

然后我搬到了加拿大。

LÜTKE: I’m from Koblenz, right.

LÜTKE：我来自科布伦茨，对吧。

I celebrated 2,000 years when I was a teenager there.

当我十几岁的时候，我在那里庆祝了 2000 周年。

Julius Caesar might have come through, and that was probably the most exciting thing that ever happened there.

朱利叶斯·凯撒可能已经成功了，这可能是那里发生过的最令人兴奋的事情。

I think it goes back into the stereotypes culture.

我认为这又回到了刻板印象文化。

Again, I’m German.

再说一遍，我是德国人。

I started a company with another German, both in Canada, for Americans.

我和另一位德国人在加拿大创办了一家为美国人服务的公司。

Shopify is an interesting milieu of different cultures.

Shopify 是一个有趣的不同文化环境。

Straight off the bat, Germans are just blunt.

德国人一开始就直言不讳。

There’s just no shit-sandwich configuration that needs to be constructed to say if something is bad.

不需要构建任何狗屎三明治配置来判断是否有问题。

I think Germans have a more innately higher quality bar and less tolerance for underperformance on that quality bar.

我认为德国人天生就有更高的质量标准，并且对质量标准上表现不佳的容忍度更小。

Products are either below it or good, great, world-class above it.

产品要么低于它，要么是好的、伟大的、世界一流的。

Below that, nothing else registers as anything of value, which is totally different in North America.

除此之外，没有其他东西被视为有价值的东西，这在北美是完全不同的。

I think there’s good and bad that comes from this.

我认为这有好有坏。

I think a cultural appreciation for good products, craftsmanship done right, and so on is something that’s more associated with Europe.

我认为对优质产品、正确工艺等的文化欣赏与欧洲更相关。

But the quick iteration, be embarrassed by the first version, and then build from there, is something that North America does better.

但快速迭代、对第一个版本感到尴尬，然后从那里开始构建，是北美做得更好的事情。

It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

I’ve seen this in meetings where people fell along cultural lines of, should we ship this?

我在会议上看到过这种情况，人们会陷入文化界限，我们应该发布这个吗？

Should we not ship this?

我们不应该运送这个吗？

Is it valuable to build it this way?

以这种方式构建它有价值吗？

Or should we spend months and months and months trying to figure out exactly what to build and then build that and try to get it as close to perfect as possible?

或者我们应该花费数月、数月、数月的时间试图弄清楚到底要构建什么，然后构建它并尝试使其尽可能接近完美？

Or should we just iterate very, very quickly?

或者我们应该非常非常快地迭代？

Yes, they go differently.

是的，他们的方式不同。

LÜTKE: Yes, as well.

吕克：是的，也是。

Yes, that’s true.

是的，确实如此。

It’s more on the side of American, definitely on a minimum quality bar.

它更偏向美国人，绝对是最低质量标准。

I think Canadians are often more about long term.

我认为加拿大人往往更注重长远。

I’ve seen Canadians more often think about what’s the next step after this step, but also just low ambition.

我看到加拿大人更多地思考这一步之后的下一步是什么，但野心也很小。

That’s probably not the most popular thing to say around here, but Canada’s problem, often culturally, is a go-for-bronze mentality, which apparently is not uncommon for smaller countries attached to significantly more cultural or just bigger countries.

这可能不是这里最流行的说法，但加拿大的问题，通常是文化上的，是一种追求青铜的心态，这对于依附于文化程度更高的小国家或只是更大的国家来说显然并不罕见。

Actually, I found it’s very easy to work around.

事实上，我发现这很容易解决。

I think a lot of our success has been due to just me and my co-founder basically allowing everyone to go for world class.

我认为我们的成功很大程度上归功于我和我的联合创始人基本上让每个人都走向世界一流。

Everyone’s like, “Oh, well, if we are allowed to do this, then let’s go.” I think that makes a big difference.

每个人都会说，“哦，好吧，如果我们被允许这样做，那就走吧。”我认为这有很大的不同。

Ratcheting up ambition for a project is something that one has to do in a company in Canada.

提高项目雄心是加拿大公司必须做的事情。

LÜTKE: I don’t know.

卢克：我不知道。

Inasmuch as Shopify may be seen as something that succeeded, that alone didn’t do it.

尽管 Shopify 可能被视为成功的东西，但仅靠它并没有成功。

It would’ve been very, very nice if that would’ve happened.

如果这能发生的话，那就太好了。

Now there’s another cohort of founders coming through.

现在又一批创始人出现了。

Some of them have been part of Shopify or come back from — I believe there are some great companies in Calgary, like NEO, that are more ambitious.

他们中的一些人已经加入了 Shopify，或者从 回来—— 我相信卡尔加里有一些伟大的公司，比如 NEO，它们更加雄心勃勃。

I think it’s a bit of a decision.

我认为这是一个有点决定。

The time it worked perfectly was when Canada was hosting the Winter Olympics, which is now a little bit of ancient history.

它完美运作的时候是加拿大举办冬季奥运会的时候，现在这已经成为了一段古老的历史了。

There was actually a program Canada-wide that’s called Own the Podium.

实际上有一个全加拿大范围内的计划，名为“Own the Podium”。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

It’s home.

这是家。

We have more winter than most, so therefore let’s do well.

我们的冬天比大多数国家都多，所以我们要好好表现。

And then we did.

然后我们就这么做了。

It’s just by far the best performance of Canada’s Olympic team of all times.

这是迄今为止加拿大奥运代表队有史以来最好的表现。

I think to systematize it and make it stick — changing a culture is very, very difficult, but instances of just giving everyone permission to go for it have also been super successful.

我认为将其系统化并使其坚持下去——改变一种文化是非常非常困难的，但允许每个人都这样做的例子也非常成功。

LÜTKE: I think because German school at that time was in love with serializing out answers and trying to fill you up with as many answers as possible and hope that you would be able to apply them to problems you encounter later.

LÜTKE：我想是因为当时的德国学校热衷于将答案序列化，并试图为你提供尽可能多的答案，并希望你能够将它们应用于以后遇到的问题。

I don’t know if there’s a good theory for that being a sensible approach that would stand up to reason.

我不知道是否有一个好的理论可以证明这是一种经得起推理的明智方法。

It certainly didn’t work for me.

这对我来说当然不起作用。

I am literally the opposite.

我恰恰相反。

I need to have every problem before I can learn the answer to it.

我需要先解决每一个问题，然后才能找到答案。

What we were being taught in the ’90s and during this time was in stark contrast with what was interesting for working with computers.

我们在 90 年代以及这一时期所学到的知识与使用计算机的乐趣形成了鲜明的对比。

That was really the most fun thing for me to do during this time, and it seemed very valuable even then.

这确实是我这段时间做的最有趣的事情，即使在当时也显得很有价值。

This probably sounds too abstract.

这听起来可能太抽象了。

Latin as the first extra language is just not highly utilitarian.

拉丁语作为第一种额外语言并不是高度实用的。

Knowing Latin is very rarely the correct answer to questions you might encounter later in life.

了解拉丁语很少能成为您以后生活中可能遇到的问题的正确答案。

Not saying it’s not valuable in some way, but maybe start with English.

并不是说它在某种程度上没有价值，但也许可以从英语开始。

That would be a good start.

这将是一个好的开始。

LÜTKE: The hot take here on this is, there are.

LÜTKE：对此最热门的看法是，确实有。

They’re called Shopify and Palantir and others.

它们被称为 Shopify 和 Palantir 等。

LÜTKE: I would love to know.

LÜTKE：我很想知道。

Honestly, I think about this a lot, but I don’t know if I’m the best person to analyze it.

老实说，我想了很多，但我不知道我是否是分析它的最佳人选。

What I’m hearing — and it makes sense — it’s just that tech is something that Americans do, from the perspective of Germans.

我所听到的 —— 这是有道理的 —— 从德国人的角度来看，科技是美国人做的事情。

I really don’t think the general population believes that tech is adding a lot to life.

我真的不认为普通大众相信科技给生活带来了很多好处。

This may be a reflection of areas I go to visit.

这可能反映了我去参观的地区。

Again, I mostly visit family and friends in smaller areas.

同样，我主要在较小的地区拜访家人和朋友。

It’s not the tech centers of Germany having these conversations.

进行这些对话的并不是德国的技术中心。

There is very much a pessimism about the future that, I think, means you cannot build tech companies.

我认为，人们对未来抱有非常悲观的态度，这意味着你无法建立科技公司。

You have to be optimistic about the future.

你必须对未来保持乐观。

Otherwise, why would you want to contribute to progress and make it come faster?

否则，你为什么要为进步做出贡献并让它来得更快呢？

That’s one thing.

这是一回事。

I think it’s very hard to hire staff that’s willing.

我认为雇用愿意的员工非常困难。

In North America, I found that people take big chances.

在北美，我发现人们愿意冒险。

If they believe and have conviction in a company doing something, they would leave an excellent career to give it a go.

如果他们相信并坚信一家公司正在做某事，他们就会放弃自己出色的职业生涯来尝试一下。

It seems to not be true in Germany, so access to excellent talent is simply harder, based on them making cultural decisions differently, partly because startups are a low-status pursuit from the best I can tell.

在德国似乎并非如此，因此获得优秀人才更加困难，因为他们做出了不同的文化决策，部分原因是据我所知，初创企业是一种低地位的追求。

LÜTKE: You’re asking very good questions that I much rather would ask you.

LÜTKE：你问的问题非常好，我更愿意问你。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

I wish I knew.

我希望我知道。

I started at a small company in Germany; it didn’t do anything.

我从德国的一家小公司开始工作；它什么也没做。

So, it’s not like people didn’t do this.

所以，人们并不是没有这样做。

I came to Canada, again, this time it worked.

我又来了加拿大，这次成功了。

Then I was head down for a very long time, building my thing because it was all-consuming, so I didn’t pay too much attention to — I wasn’t even very deliberate about where to start a company.

然后我低头了很长一段时间，建立我的东西，因为它是耗费全部精力的，所以我没有太多关注 —— 我什至没有很仔细地考虑在哪里创办一家公司。

I started in Ottawa because that’s where my wife and I were during the time she was studying there.

我从渥太华开始，因为我和我的妻子在她在那里学习期间就在那里。

We could find great talent there that was overlooked, it seemed, and gave everyone a project to be ambitious with, and it worked.

我们可以在那里找到似乎被忽视的优秀人才，并为每个人提供了一个雄心勃勃的项目，而且它奏效了。

I think that if you create in geography a consensus that you’re a company really, really worth working for because it’s interesting work, great work, it might actually lead to something — then you can build it.

我认为，如果你在地理上达成共识，认为你是一家真正非常值得工作的公司，因为它是有趣的工作，伟大的工作，它实际上可能会带来一些东西 ——然后你就可以建立它。

I don’t quite understand why this is not possible to do in so many places in Germany because, again, Germany does have this wonderful appreciation of craftsmanship, which I think is actually underrepresented in software.

我不太明白为什么在德国很多地方都无法做到这一点，因为德国确实对工艺有如此美妙的欣赏，而我认为这在软件中实际上并没有得到充分体现。

I think it’s only recently — usually by Europeans — being brought up.

我认为直到最近——“通常是欧洲人”——才​​被提出来。

Patrick Collison talks about it more and more, and certainly I do, too.

帕特里克·科里森越来越多地谈论这个问题，当然我也是如此。

Making software is a craft.

制作软件是一门手艺。

I think, in this way, Germany, Czech Republic, other places, Poland, are extremely enlightened in making this part of an apprenticeship system.

我认为，从这一点来说，德国、捷克、其他地方、波兰，把这部分纳入学徒制，是非常开明的。

I apprenticed as a computer programmer, and I thought it was exactly the right way to learn these things.

我作为一名计算机程序员学徒，我认为这正是学习这些东西的正确方法。

Now, that means there’s, I believe, a lot of talent that then makes decisions other than putting it together to build ambitious startups.

现在，我相信，这意味着有很多人才会做出决策，而不是将其聚集在一起建立雄心勃勃的初创公司。

Something needs to be uncorked by the people who have more insight than I have.

有些事情需要比我更有洞察力的人来打开。

LÜTKE: I think it’s optimism.

LÜTKE：我认为这就是乐观。

LÜTKE: I think they actually banned humor for a little while in the Bay Area.

LÜTKE：我认为他们实际上在湾区暂时禁止了幽默。

It might make a comeback now.

现在它可能会卷土重来。

I really do think it seems like an easy out, but it’s actually potentially .

我确实认为这看起来很容易，但实际上是有潜力的。

.

。

.

。

The optimism angle is load-bearing for this.

乐观的角度对此有承重作用。

You’ve got to believe that the future is going to be better than today to want to make the future come sooner, which is in your tiny, tiny, tiny little way.

你必须相信未来会比今天更好，才能让未来更快到来，这就是你微小、微小、微小的方式。

I’m not talking about every company’s changing the world, but every company — if you want it to work, it’s causing progress, both adding to the vector of progress, but also maybe just changing some trajectory in some space a little bit.

我并不是说每家公司都在改变世界，而是每家公司 ——如果你想让它发挥作用，它就会带来进步，既增加了进步的向量，也可能只是稍微改变了某些空间的某些轨迹。

If Shopify wouldn’t have happened, something like this might be highly distributed.

如果 Shopify 没有发生，类似的事情可能会高度分布。

Many, many pieces of software or something else would be there.

那里会有很多很多软件或其他东西。

It would not look like Shopify.

它看起来不像 Shopify。

The world of computing is extremely path-dependent, just like every other part of the world.

与世界其他地方一样，计算世界极其依赖于路径。

You want to be able to add something.

你希望能够添加一些东西。

This is also why ignorance is usually useful because you should be ignorant to the low odds in the beginning, one of the reasons why at least some founders often are young.

这也是为什么无知通常是有用的，因为你应该在一开始就对低概率一无所知，这也是至少一些创始人通常很年轻的原因之一。

These things are important.

这些事情很重要。

Another aspect of the European Union: People study very long.

欧盟的另一个方面：人们学习时间很长。

I know this has gotten updated in the time since I was there, but man, in my trips home, I had a lot of 32-year-old student friends, and that’s just— cool.

我知道自从我在那里以来这段时间已经更新了，但是伙计，在我回家的路上，我有很多 32 岁的学生朋友，这真是——太酷了。

There’s a significant amount of Nobel Prizes awarded to people for their work in their 20s, and we should just have a clear cultural understanding that those are useful years to be out and building things.

有大量诺贝尔奖颁发给了 20 多岁的人，他们的工作是他们的工作，我们应该有一个清晰的文化理解，即那些是走出去和建设事物的有用年份。

Nothing is single-causal, and I think there are a lot of contributing factors.

没有什么是单一原因的，我认为有很多因素。

I would have trouble weighting them, but lack of optimism is the one I would put on the top of the list.

我很难衡量它们的权重，但缺乏乐观是我将其放在首位的因素。

On untranslatable words

关于不可译的单词

LÜTKE: I don’t have —

LÜTKE：我没有——

LÜTKE: Heimweh.

卢克：海姆威。

Verschlimmbesserung is such a good word.

Verschlimmbesserung 这个词太好了。

What that means is, by trying to improve something, you made it worse.

这意味着，当你试图改进某件事时，你却让事情变得更糟。

And maybe it’s also born out of pessimism about the future, but it’s just so wonderful because you see it often.

也许它也源于对未来的悲观情绪，但它是如此美妙，因为你经常看到它。

Chesterton’s Fence — people don’t often know what parts of a large system are important parts that have a lot of cultural or technical understanding coded in them, and which ones are just there because we were in a hurry building the system, and sometimes you find out which is which very quickly afterwards.

切斯特顿的栅栏 ——人们常常不知道大型系统的哪些部分是重要的部分，其中编码了很多文化或技术理解，哪些部分只是因为我们匆忙构建系统而存在，有时你很快就会发现哪个是哪个。

A word is useful in these kinds of situations.

在这种情况下，一个词很有用。

LÜTKE: They are beautiful.

LÜTKE：它们很漂亮。

Even gestalt is a word that might actually have been integrated now in English, but there’s no equivalent of that.

甚至格式塔这个词现在实际上可能已经被整合到英语中，但没有与之对应的词。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

But the reverse is also interesting.

但反过来也很有趣。

Entitlement is not a word that Germans have, which I find really, really interesting.

“权利”这个词不是德国人才有的，我觉得这个词非常非常有趣。

Sometimes in Shopify, I have to explain to people.

有时在 Shopify 中，我必须向人们解释。

I sit them down.

我让他们坐下。

“Hey, gratitude and entitlement are two sides of the spectrum.

“嘿，感恩和权利是这个谱系的两个方面。

It’s your choice where you are here after you have a pleasant experience or maybe with some downsides along the way.” A very important conversation to have with the interns sometimes if — I don’t know — the provided food is cold or something like this.

在您享受了愉快的经历之后，或者在此过程中可能遇到一些缺点之后，您可以选择来到这里。”有时，如果 - 我不知道 - 提供的食物是冷的或类似的情况，那么与实习生进行的对话非常重要。

I get in these situations where I sit down and okay, I’m doing this in German now because this is the moment where I have to roll out this thing, and then I’m just struggling, actually, because there’s no term.

我遇到这种情况时，我坐下来，好吧，我现在用德语做这件事，因为这是我必须推出这个东西的时刻，然后我只是在挣扎，实际上，因为没有术语。

I’m like, “That’s an interesting fact that we don’t have a word for this.” So, this happens as well.

我想，“这是一个有趣的事实，我们对此没有任何说法。”所以，这种情况也会发生。

Now, of course, someone’s going to send me a string like this, which perfectly represents it and does it better.

当然，现在有人会向我发送一个这样的字符串，它完美地代表了它并且做得更好。

But anyway, nothing I could easily recall.

但无论如何，我没有什么能轻易回忆起来的。

LÜTKE: Occasionally.

吕克：偶尔。

I must read one book in German a year as a self-policy, which I violated last year, which I was not super happy about.

作为一项自我政策，我必须每年读一本德语书，去年我违反了这一政策，对此我不太高兴。

One thing which I find disappointing is when .

我觉得令人失望的一件事是。

.

。

.

。

Obviously, I take the opportunities when I want to go to something that’s originally written in German, but I try to read this in an original.

显然，当我想要阅读最初用德语写的东西时，我会抓住机会，但我会尝试阅读原著。

Wittgenstein’s Tractatus is an example of this.

维特根斯坦的《逻辑哲学论》就是一个例子。

The English translation is so much better because the translator asked for so many clarifications by Wittgenstein that it just ends up being readable.

英文翻译要好得多，因为译者要求维特根斯坦做出如此多的澄清，最终才变得可读。

I found a book which was actually beautifully set — I think MIT published it — of the original German, the English translation, and a translation back to German from the English translation, all in three columns, and that was perfect.

我找到了一本书，内容实际上很精美 ——我想麻省理工学院出版了它—— 德文原版、英文译本以及从英文译本翻译回德文的内容，全部分为三栏，非常完美。

Sometimes the English translations get updated again, like for Kant or something like this.

有时英文翻译会再次更新，例如康德或类似的内容。

I’m actually a fan of rewriting books every — I don’t know — 25, 50 years for two generations down the line because they just get hard to access.

事实上，我很喜欢在两代人的时间里每隔 25、50 年重写一本书，因为它们很难获得。

Often you get that by reading the English translation.

通常，您可以通过阅读英文翻译来了解这一点。

I feel like I lose opportunities to do this.

我觉得我失去了这样做的机会。

LÜTKE: You’re asking me to poke a hornet’s nest here.

LÜTKE：你是在叫我在这里捅马蜂窝。

I’m going to have too many unhappy people by actually committing at all to this question, so I’m going to take a pass.

如果我真正致力于这个问题，将会有太多的人不高兴，所以我打算放弃。

LÜTKE: It’s very hard to draw a straight line, though.

LÜTKE：不过，很难画一条直线。

You end up with a very, very, very jagged line if you’re trying to do the best possible job there.

如果你试图在那里做得最好，你最终会得到一条非常非常锯齿状的线。

Anyway, lots happened in Germany for a long time to cause culture to be classified to wherever it is now.

不管怎样，德国长期以来发生了很多事情，导致文化被分类到现在的位置。

On Canada

关于加拿大

LÜTKE: Yes, this worries me a great deal.

LÜTKE：是的，这让我很担心。

Comparing to the United States is a bad idea in general.

总的来说，与美国相比是一个坏主意。

Actually, it’s the best possible idea if you’re going for optimism, but it’s not the best idea if you are looking to stay sane.

事实上，如果你想保持乐观，这是最好的主意，但如果你想保持理智，这不是最好的主意。

America is exceptional.

美国是例外的。

It’s an unbelievable economic might.

这是令人难以置信的经济力量。

It’s an unbelievable country in so many ways.

从很多方面来说，这是一个令人难以置信的国家。

You hear in every country, “Well, if you compare to the United States in this one, things are bad.” I think the comparison of Germany to Netherlands makes a lot more sense, and I think that’s where you can figure out what might be actionable.

你在每个国家都会听到这样的话：“好吧，如果你与美国相比，情况很糟糕。”我认为德国与荷兰的比较更有意义，我认为这就是你可以找出可行的方法的地方。

America is just really, really, really different, so first of all, that.

美国真的非常非常不同，所以首先，这一点。

Every once in a while, there’s an economy that really can hang with America.

每隔一段时间，就会有一个经济体真正与美国相伴。

I think 2014, ’15, it was looking really, really well.

我认为 2014 年、15 年看起来非常非常好。

I think what happened there — again, nothing is singularly causal.

我认为那里发生的事情 ——再次强调，没有什么是唯一的因果关系。

The productivity numbers are really low, and I think the employment in the public sector having grown to the degree it has .

生产力数字确实很低，而且我认为公共部门的就业已经达到了现在的程度。

.

。

.

。

I don’t know if it’s causally related or correlation with the same thing, but it’s just pretty clear to me that if the ratio of referees to builders or critics to builders is going out of whack, things grind to a halt.

我不知道这是因果关系还是与同一件事相关，但我很清楚，如果裁判员与建设者或批评者与建设者的比例失常，事情就会陷入停滞。

We saw this even in Shopify adoption.

我们甚至在 Shopify 的采用中也看到了这一点。

It just took a lot longer for Canada to want digital products, and Shopify is always selling and finding its best customers in the United States the first 10 years, easily.

只是加拿大需要更长的时间才需要数字产品，而 Shopify 在前 10 年始终能够轻松地在美国销售并找到最好的客户。

Believe me that Shopify is pretty good.

相信我，Shopify 相当不错。

Now there’s a compounding advantage for people who have adopted it earlier.

现在，对于较早采用它的人来说，有一个复合优势。

That is a tiny zoom of a much bigger fractal that I think is at play there.

这是一个更大的分形的微小放大，我认为在那里起作用。

LÜTKE: It feels like it’s the optimism angle, and I think this is the thing that worries me the most.

LÜTKE：感觉这是乐观的角度，我认为这是我最担心的事情。

Canada had a massively underappreciated — at the time — project in multiculturalism that worked.

加拿大有一个“在当时”被严重低估的“多元文化主义”项目，该项目取得了成效。

It started under Pierre Trudeau, really, just putting the country together with great leadership, great vision, and Canada had a string of leaders that were almost too good for a small country.

实际上，它是在皮埃尔·特鲁多的领导下开始的，只是以伟大的领导力和伟大的远见将国家团结起来，加拿大有一连串的领导人，对于一个小国来说几乎太好了。

There was this, “Hey, we are getting along well.

是这样的，“嘿，我们相处得很好。

We are friendly.

我们很友好。

It’s a high-trust environment, and the best days are going to be ahead of us.”

这是一个高度信任的环境，最好的日子即将到来。”

I think it’s so hard to point at exactly what changed it, but the cultural narrative has simply shifted now.

我认为很难准确指出是什么改变了它，但文化叙事现在已经发生了变化。

I do think people are a little bit more circumspect in looking at the country.

我确实认为人们在看待这个国家时更加谨慎一些。

I think the problems are more clear.

我想问题已经比较清楚了。

There’s a lot hanging on real estate, and real estate is not by itself .

房地产有很多悬而未决的事情，而房地产本身并不是一回事。

.

。

.

。

It’s valuable to a second order because of all the other things being valuable.

它对第二订单很有价值，因为所有其他东西都很有价值。

I think the worst thing is, from my perspective, that Canada seems to be okay just exporting the raw materials for everything.

我认为最糟糕的是，从我的角度来看，加拿大似乎可以只出口所有产品的原材料。

That started as beaver pelts being sent to London for turning into high-margin hats.

一开始，海狸毛皮被送往伦敦制成高利润的帽子。

Canada has no refineries.

加拿大没有炼油厂。

It all goes to Houston, even though it produces a good deal of energy.

尽管它产生了大量的能源，但所有这些都流向了休斯顿。

Waterloo is basically a raw material export as well as one of the greatest schools on planet Earth.

滑铁卢基本上是一个原材料出口地，也是地球上最伟大的学校之一。

Waterloo students are load-bearing for Silicon Valley companies.

滑铁卢的学生是硅谷公司的负担。

There’s a lot of readiness to export the CEO cultural conversation about maybe we should have people build things here as well.

人们已经做好了输出首席执行官文化对话的准备，也许我们也应该让人们在这里建造东西。

It seems like a country which now has so little self-confidence.

现在看来这个国家已经没有什么自信了。

I see this running Shopify.

我看到这个正在运行 Shopify。

A huge amount of our employees we hired last year — I think it was 60 percent or so of our engineers — were boomerangs, coming back from storied American companies.

我们去年雇佣的大量员工 ——我认为大约有 60% 左右的工程师 ——都是从著名的美国公司回来的回旋镖。

Most of them are Canadian.

他们大多数是加拿大人。

Often, they say this was because “We wanted to work for Apple because my parents said, ‘Man, you’re really doing well in tech.

通常，他们说这是因为“我们想为苹果工作，因为我的父母说，‘伙计，你在科技领域做得真的很好。

You might actually get a real job in that Apple.’”

你实际上可能会在苹果公司找到一份真正的工作。”

If you hear this a lot — you do — and then you go there, and you know what?

如果你经常听到这样的话 — 你确实听到了 — 然后你去了那里，你知道吗？

You actually liked that job, and then you come back.

你确实喜欢那份工作，然后你就回来了。

I think this thing needs to happen a lot.

我认为这件事需要发生很多次。

We need to have some more of these stories out there.

我们需要更多这样的故事。

Canada is a pretty good country.

加拿大是一个相当不错的国家。

I think it’s a major, major asset to the United States as a great friend.

我认为，作为美国的好朋友，这是一项非常非常重要的资产。

I think a stronger Canada is better for absolutely everyone.

我认为一个更强大的加拿大绝对对每个人都更好。

LÜTKE: Because Canada exports no products.

LÜTKE：因为加拿大不出口产品。

Shopify and Lululemon export.

Shopify 和 Lululemon 导出。

I’m sure I’m forgetting .

我确信我忘记了。

.

。

.

。

Molson, sure, but I don’t think it’s not the ability to do branding.

莫尔森，当然，但我不认为这不是做品牌的能力。

It’s just, Canada does not appreciate commercialization of any kind.

只是，加拿大不欣赏任何形式的商业化。

Canada wants to invent.

加拿大想要发明。

It’s remarkable how many papers that are foundational to the current revolution of the AI boom — University of Toronto and Waterloo papers, Geoff Hinton and his lab, and so on.

值得注意的是，有多少论文是当前人工智能热潮革命的基础——多伦多大学和滑铁卢大学的论文、Geoff Hinton 和他的实验室等等。

Bengio and so on.

本吉奥等.

Canada loves to have a eureka moment, but it’s seen as a low-status thing to then go and try to build a business around it, which is probably amazing from the perspective of our neighbors, but probably not so good for the wealth of a country.

加拿大喜欢有一个灵光一现的时刻，但试图围绕它建立一个企业被视为一种低地位的事情，从我们邻国的角度来看，这可能是令人惊奇的，但对于一个国家的财富来说可能不太好。

We are not metabolizing any kind of innovation.

我们没有代谢任何类型的创新。

Shopify is very much an operation here as like, let’s make something that at least was a brand of businesses initially, and increasingly people beyond businesses recognize it.

Shopify 在这里很大程度上是一种业务，让我们做一些最初至少是企业品牌的东西，并且越来越多的企业以外的人认识到它。

I think that is an important thing.

我认为这是一件重要的事情。

It’s the same thing as we don’t refine the oil, or we don’t make the hats from the beavers, or we just don’t create the final product.

这就像我们不提炼石油，或者我们不用海狸制造帽子，或者我们只是不创造最终产品一样。

We send the raw materials everywhere.

我们将原材料发送到各地。

If I could change one thing, I would do that.

如果我能改变一件事，我就会这么做。

By the way, this is deeply encoded in policy.

顺便说一句，这已深深地写入政策中。

There’s a thing called SR&ED tax credits.

有一种叫做 SR&ED 税收抵免的东西。

I’m not going to bore you with the details there, but you can claim those if you do research and development and try to claim them for anything that’s commercially related.

我不会让你厌烦那里的细节，但如果你进行研究和开发，并尝试为任何与商业相关的东西索取它们，你就可以索取这些细节。

It’s remarkable.

这很了不起。

I, at various points, just stopped applying for them because we were just too commercial in lots of ways.

我曾多次停止申请它们，因为我们在很多方面都过于商业化。

You’re being paid for doing original research, which I think is a great policy because often original research could need a boost.

你因进行原创性研究而获得报酬，我认为这是一项很好的政策，因为原创性研究通常需要推动。

But then going and turning this into a product — you’re completely left out.

但如果你把它变成一个产品，你就完全被排除在外了。

If you want to claim anything, you will have to ask every one of your people on the staff to have meticulous time sheets and submit an ungodly burden of documentation, which literally makes the commercialization jobs terrible.

如果你想提出任何要求，你将不得不要求你的每一位员工都提供细致的时间表并提交大量的文件，这实际上使商业化工作变得非常糟糕。

Therefore, the good people don’t want to work in this environment and so on, so on, so on.

因此，优秀的人不愿意在这种环境下工作等等，等等。

LÜTKE: Canada is about — I don’t know if it’s accurate numbers, but I think generally right.

LÜTKE：加拿大是关于 — 我不知道这个数字是否准确，但我认为总体上是正确的。

Canada is about 41 million people.

加拿大约有 4100 万人口。

In the last three years, three million people immigrated to Canada, which is a significant percentage increase in size of population.

过去三年，三百万人移民到加拿大，人口规模大幅增加。

There is a lot of cultural conversation about this.

关于这一点有很多文化对话。

I think most of the conversation that I see is not really about veracity of immigration in general, but actually about the fact that in this time of adding three million immigrants, we added almost no housing.

我认为我看到的大部分对话实际上并不是关于移民的真实性，而是关于这样一个事实：在增加 300 万移民的过程中，我们几乎没有增加住房。

It’s just not a great idea to do that.

这样做并不是一个好主意。

That’s causing a lot of bad downscaling effects.

这会造成很多不良的缩减效应。

Immigration has, my entire 20 years I’ve been here — 20-something — been very popular in Canada, which I thought was one of the most unique parts of the country.

我在这里呆了整整 20 年，移民在加拿大非常受欢迎，我认为这是这个国家最独特的地区之一。

That’s part of the statement I made earlier about an almost unacknowledged effortlessness to multiculturalism that worked.

这是我早些时候发表的声明的一部分，即几乎不被承认的多元文化主义毫不费力地发挥了作用。

Canada also implemented the thing that everyone’s talking about, the skills-based visa program with point systems, which is well designed and has been doing a lot of work for Canada in the past.

加拿大还实施了大家都在谈论的，基于技能的签证计划，带有积分制度，这个计划设计得很好，过去为加拿大做了很多工作。

It’s not quite clear to me why we’ve walked away from these priors that have clearly identified to work, all of it.

我不太清楚为什么我们放弃了这些已经明确确定有效的先验知识，所有这些。

Certainly, things in policy land changed and opinions changed.

当然，政策领域的情况发生了变化，观点也发生了变化。

I don’t think people like this experiment.

我认为人们不喜欢这个实验。

My significant hope is that this is not going to be one of those baby-out-with-the-bathwater moments because we have a great skills-based immigration system.

我最大的希望是，这不会成为那些“婴儿与洗澡水一起流走”的时刻之一，因为我们拥有一个基于技能的出色移民体系。

I think Canada should just fall back on that and run that up.

我认为加拿大应该依靠这一点并继续前进。

On Ottawa

在渥太华

LÜTKE: What a wonderful setup.

LÜTKE：多么美妙的设置啊。

LÜTKE: Thank you for the platform.

LÜTKE：感谢您提供的平台。

It’s a wonderful city.

这是一座很棒的城市。

We ended up there because my wife was born there, but then actually studied there, maybe not expecting to go back.

我们最终来到了那里，因为我的妻子出生在那里，但后来实际上在那里学习，也许并没有想到会回去。

Then we stayed for 20 years, and Shopify built a great company there because people really love it there, and they were itching for a better employer, I suppose.

然后我们在那里呆了 20 年，Shopify 在那里建立了一家伟大的公司，因为人们真的很喜欢那里，而且我想他们渴望找到更好的雇主。

Obviously, it also gets really cold.

显然，天气也会变得非常冷。

I had these wonderful parts.

我有这些美妙的部分。

My commute to work was skating on the canal every day.

我每天上班的路上都是在运河上滑冰。

Where else in the world can you have a commute like this?

世界上还有哪里可以享受这样的通勤体验？

But the first time I visited, it was really, really cold in the winter, and I had my questions.

但我第一次去的时候，冬天真的非常非常冷，我有我的疑问。

In the summer, you go to a cottage, and that’s just the other-side-of-the-world thing.

夏天，你去一间小屋，那只是世界另一端的事情。

It’s a wonderful quality of life, and I think that matters.

这是一种美妙的生活质量，我认为这很重要。

LÜTKE: Yes, that was my commute.

LÜTKE：是的，那是我的通勤路线。

LÜTKE: Well, maybe two of those was a commute.

LÜTKE：嗯，也许其中两次是通勤。

I was right in an office downtown, and then we were living along the canal, like two blocks in.

我当时就在市中心的一间办公室里，然后我们住在运河沿岸，就像两个街区一样。

It was very cool.

非常酷。

A very nice thing.

一件非常好的事情。

Nice way to start a day.

开始新的一天的好方法。

I’m sure I wrote my best code in those days.

我确信我当时写出了最好的代码。

On the future of retail

关于零售业的未来

LÜTKE: That’s a good question.

卢克：这是个好问题。

Virtual reality stores — I don’t have a great answer there.

虚拟现实商店 — 我没有一个很好的答案。

I don’t think they will port the exact Fifth Avenue boutiques online, other than having virtual twins for people who specifically want to see those.

我认为他们不会将确切的第五大道精品店移植到网上，除非为特别想参观这些精品店的人提供虚拟双胞胎。

I don’t think the future of e-commerce is going to be strolling through virtual malls or these kinds of things.

我不认为电子商务的未来会是在虚拟商场或类似的东西中漫步。

I think the exact way this is all going to compose is going to be different.

我认为这一切的具体组成方式将会有所不同。

I think that innovations in virtual reality are going to be much more about virtual avatars, or real people having .

我认为虚拟现实的创新将更多地涉及虚拟化身或真人。

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It’s just like talking to a product.

这就像与产品交谈一样。

Shopify represents mostly the catalog of products that people really want rather than the necessities.

Shopify 主要代表人们真正想要的产品目录，而不是必需品。

The Fifth Avenue boutiques would also be the ones using Shopify for point of sale, and purchasers are a lot more deliberate around this.

第五大道精品店也将使用 Shopify 进行销售点，而购买者对此会更加谨慎。

People often spend weeks thinking about, is this something they would like to purchase?

人们经常花几个星期的时间思考，这是他们想要购买的东西吗？

And they’re really looking forward to a package arriving, hopefully very quickly.

他们真的很期待包裹到达，希望很快。

I think there’re lots and lots of touchpoints there.

我认为那里有很多很多的接触点。

The place that is probably the most virtual area that we see already is furniture.

我们已经看到的最虚拟的区域可能是家具。

The placing of a couch in your living room is just better than looking at it in some store, right?

在客厅里放置一张沙发比在商店里看到它更好，对吧？

I think we see the early beginnings in this, and there are a couple of technologies that we’re tracking, like Gaussian splats, and these kinds of things that are just going to make it vastly simpler for people to make digital twins available from whatever they’ve managed to put together in real life.

我认为我们已经看到了这方面的早期开端，并且我们正在跟踪一些技术，例如高斯分布，这些技术将使人们更容易地从他们在现实生活中设法组合的任何东西中获得数字孪生。

I think a bunch of this is coming, but I don’t know what the date is and what exactly is the form factor.

我认为很多这样的产品即将推出，但我不知道日期是什么以及外形尺寸到底是什么。

LÜTKE: I think it will play a significant role, for sure, change retail.

LÜTKE：我认为它肯定会发挥重要作用，改变零售业。

I think we will see significantly better products being made.

我认为我们会看到更好的产品被制造出来。

I have an extremely bullish view on AI, specifically around utilitarian value.

我对人工智能非常乐观，特别是在功利价值方面。

I think there are enormous quantities for company building.

我认为公司建设的数量是巨大的。

There’s enormous advantage for product creation.

对于产品创造来说有巨大的优势。

I think what we engineers experience around Copilot right now getting good — they are helping us do the job that we already have a significant craft in, but do it better.

我认为我们工程师现在在 Copilot 方面的经验正在变得越来越好——他们正在帮助我们完成我们已经拥有重要技术的工作，而且做得更好。

It’s extremely convincing.

这是非常有说服力的。

I think people would want one day a Copilot or a Sidekick or something like this along more of the things we do which are at the edges of viability, which I think in the retail world, on the creation side of businesses and on the creation side of products — it’s just basically all the time.

我认为有一天，人们会希望在我们所做的更多处于生存能力边缘的事情中，有一个副驾驶或一个助手或类似的东西，我认为在零售世界、企业的创造方面和产品的创造方面 ——基本上一直都是这样。

It’s a stretch.

这是一个延伸。

It’s the way you put yourself out there: You create the best thing.

这就是你展现自己的方式：你创造最好的东西。

It’s a deeply personal thing to create the first version of a product that you try to create a company around.

创建您试图创建公司的产品的第一个版本是一件非常个人化的事情。

I think that’s really, really powerful.

我认为这真的非常非常强大。

Highly intelligent, very knowledgeable, zero judgment.

非常聪明，知识渊博，零判断力。

Always available, fast returning.

随时可用，快速返回。

Even text AIs are going to be fantastic, but increasingly, I think software is going to go through a .

即使是文本人工智能也会很棒，但我认为软件将越来越多地经历。

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We have learned how to build excellent user interfaces.

我们已经学会了如何构建优秀的用户界面。

We’re quite approachable.

我们很平易近人。

We simplify enormously complex space to easy to reasonable point decisions in a pretty approachable and legible interface, which also looks good, and all these kinds of things.

我们在一个非常平易近人且清晰的界面中将极其复杂的空间简化为易于合理的点决策，而且看起来也不错，等等。

That’s the top of a hill we’ve been climbing for 20 years — well, a little bit less, since whatever moment you pick in which Web 2.0 started, which really was the beginning of engineers saying, “Hey, we figured out how to build applications off the internet.” That’s the string we’ve been pulling on for all these years, and we’ve built very, very valuable companies that basically replaces going directly to the database or going to the command line.

这是我们 20 年来一直在攀登的山顶 ——好吧，稍微少一点，因为无论你选择 Web 2.0 何时开始，这确实是工程师们开始说的，“嘿，我们找到了如何在互联网上构建应用程序。”这就是我们这些年来一直坚持的原则，我们已经建立了非常非常有价值的公司，基本上取代了直接访问数据库或命令行。

We built out these interfaces.

我们构建了这些接口。

Now, instead of creating a place where someone can run around and switch a whole lot of toggles and change preferences to suit their particular idea, people can just tell us their goal, and then we can work together on this.

现在，人们可以直接告诉我们他们的目标，然后我们就可以共同努力，而不是创建一个人们可以到处跑、切换大量开关和更改偏好以适应他们特定想法的地方。

I think goal-oriented software is actually what we always wanted because that actually meets people where they are.

我认为面向目标的软件实际上是我们一直想要的，因为它确实满足了人们的需求。

It’s how you work with colleagues together, too.

这也是您与同事一起工作的方式。

I’m actually really excited figuring out what this is going to look like.

事实上，我很高兴知道这会是什么样子。

I love the times wherever there’s a significant transition.

我喜欢那些有重大转变的时代。

2010 to 2020 was boring because we basically just scaled the stuff we figured out towards the end of 2000-to-2010 period.

2010 年到 2020 年很无聊，因为我们基本上只是扩展了 2000 年到 2010 年末我们想出的东西。

Now we’re going to get into much more interesting times again, and there’s a lot to be figured out, and that’s exciting in the industry.

现在我们将再次进入更有趣的时代，有很多东西需要弄清楚，这在行业中是令人兴奋的。

I think where we will end up is a much, much, much, much higher mountain that we couldn’t have seen from the original hills.

我想我们最终会到达一座更高、更高、更高的山，这是我们从原来的山上看不到的。

That’s always exciting to me.

这总是令我兴奋。

I think it’s going to be very valuable to people.

我认为这对人们来说非常有价值。

LÜTKE: I don’t think I have a better .

LÜTKE：我认为我没有更好的了。

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Honestly, businesses are just so different that they are hard to average out.

老实说，企业之间的差异如此之大，以至于很难进行平均。

There are a lot of businesses where their pricing strategy is aesthetics.

有很多企业的定价策略都是美观的。

Aesthetics is one of those hand waves that humans do to explain away enormous amount of background processing that goes into it in the best-case scenario, like an entire career of knowledge rolled into an intuitive quick decision, or completely making it up, like both sides of a midwit meme here.

美学是人类用来解释在最好的情况下进入它的大量后台处理的挥手之一，就像整个知识生涯被卷入一个直观的快速决定，或者完全编造出来，就像这里的助产士模因的两面。

I think economics fundamentally will have to roll a lot of data points into an average and then try to see which direction people are doing.

我认为经济学从根本上必须将大量数据点汇总成平均值，然后尝试了解人们正在做什么。

There’s a lot of canceling and shoving out going on in the spaces that we’re concerned about.

在我们关心的领域，存在着很多取消和排斥的情况。

Interestingly, we went through a high inflation period, and just tracking when prices in the system were following — that was deeply different, based on what kind of products they are and how people consider buying these products, obviously, on margins, too.

有趣的是，我们经历了一个高通胀时期，只是跟踪系统中的价格何时跟随——这是非常不同的，基于它们是什么类型的产品以及人们如何考虑购买这些产品，显然，也是在保证金的情况下。

Again, I feel for economists.

我再次对经济学家表示同情。

I think physics has given us a sense that there is a simple equation underneath everything, and we’ve built an aesthetic around this, and I think, often, too many other fields want to be more like physics.

我认为物理学给了我们一种感觉，即一切事物背后都有一个简单的方程，我们围绕这个方程建立了一种美学，而且我认为，通常有太多其他领域希望更像物理学。

I think, actually, things are wonderful when they’re complex.

我认为，事实上，当事情变得复杂时，它们会变得很棒。

I don’t know if you want to talk about company building, but companies are complex adaptive systems, much more than being industry-applied versions of military or slightly more complex organizations of military service.

我不知道你是否想谈论公司建设，但公司是复杂的自适应系统，不仅仅是军事的行业应用版本或稍微复杂的军事组织。

To a certain degree, it can explain why companies run by some of our engineering-type people have been outperforming things because people have an incorrect understanding of what engineering is and how it works.

在某种程度上，它可以解释为什么我们一些工程型人才经营的公司表现出色，因为人们对工程是什么以及它是如何运作的理解不正确。

Engineering fundamentally, at least for the last 30 years, has mostly spent time on trying to make nondeterministic systems into deterministic, which is kind of what we do in the real world of policy, mostly, and process.

从根本上来说，至少在过去 30 年里，工程学主要花时间尝试将非确定性系统变成确定性系统，这就是我们在现实世界中所做的事情，主要是政策和流程。

If you’re an engineer running a company, I think you come pre-equipped with ideas like systems thinking instead of World War II organizational structures.

如果你是一名管理公司的工程师，我认为你预先具备了系统思维等思想，而不是二战时期的组织结构。

And companies are automated nondeterministic systems, but you’re trying to get to build fantastic products at a great pace, inclusive of all the creativity by various actors in a company.

公司是自动化的非确定性系统，但你正试图以极快的速度构建出色的产品，包括公司中各个参与者的所有创造力。

Trying to build inside of it a culture, a story, incentive systems that are just making so that the maximum amount of everyone’s activity actually furthers the mission.

试图在其中建立一种文化、一个故事、激励系统，以便每个人的最大程度的活动真正推进使命。

I find these things just so fascinating to think about.

我发现这些事情想想都非常有趣。

This is going back to the beginning.

这又回到了最初。

I saw myself as an outsider, and I’ve made a study of other fields from afar, and there are so many amazing ideas in basically any given field that you can possibly name or imagine.

我把自己视为一个局外人，我对其他领域进行了远远的研究，基本上任何你能说出或想象的特定领域都有很多令人惊奇的想法。

Often what happens is, every field reinvents the same core ideas and gives different names to them, and making a study of doing this kind of thing, and just saying, “Okay, well, how do we put a better company?”

通常发生的情况是，每个领域都会重新发明相同的核心理念，并给它们赋予不同的名称，并研究做这种事情，然后说：“好吧，好吧，我们如何打造一家更好的公司？”

I saw myself as an outsider, and I’ve made a study of other fields from afar, and there are so many amazing ideas in basically any given field that you can possibly name or imagine.

我把自己视为一个局外人，我对其他领域进行了远远的研究，基本上任何你能说出或想象的特定领域都有很多令人惊奇的想法。

Often what happens is, every field reinvents the same core ideas and gives different names to them, and making a study of doing this kind of thing, and just saying, “Okay, well, how do we put a better company?”

通常发生的情况是，每个领域都会重新发明相同的核心理念，并给它们赋予不同的名称，并研究做这种事情，然后说：“好吧，好吧，我们如何打造一家更好的公司？”

I think companies are very bad, all of them.

我认为所有的公司都非常糟糕。

I think literally everyone, me and my contemporaries, myself especially — we are going to be terribly embarrassed by the companies we ran in the early 2020s.

我认为每个人，包括我和我的同龄人，尤其是我自己，我们都会为我们在 2020 年代初经营的公司感到非常尴尬。

There are all these things we didn’t yet have or didn’t yet understand.

所有这些事情我们还没有或还不了解。

Eventually we’ll figure this out, and then, how could we even build anything before we figured out this thing?

最终我们会解决这个问题，然后，在我们解决这个问题之前，我们怎么能构建任何东西呢？

I find that such an interesting metafield of research.

我发现这是一个非常有趣的研究元领域。

It’s almost applied good thinking to build —

几乎是运用了良好的思维来构建 ——

On business complexity

关于业务复杂性

LÜTKE: We have new primitives on which we can .

LÜTKE：我们有新的原语可以使用。

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sometimes also philosophies, but I’m not saying we’re going to build a perfect company.

有时也有哲学，但我并不是说我们要建立一家完美的公司。

Everything is a set of tradeoffs.

一切都是一系列的权衡。

If the best soccer team on planet Earth gets 80 percent of perfection .

如果地球上最好的足球队达到 80% 的完美。

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You freeze-frame the replay.

您将重播定格。

Very few people use a muscle incorrectly while actually approaching the role, and then beautiful orchestration of corporation without zero communication, and that’s .

很少有人在真正接近这个角色时会错误地使用肌肉，然后在没有零沟通的情况下完美地协调公司，就是这样。

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Like, what’s a company?

比如，什么是公司？

A company’s 5 percent?

公司的5%？

How many memos are never read?

有多少备忘录从未被阅读过？

Which tells you, if you just get to 6 percent, you’re already doing better.

这告诉你，如果你达到 6%，你就已经做得更好了。

That’s a pretty good way of not being as embarrassed as everyone else.

这是避免像其他人一样尴尬的好方法。

I think, realistically, there’s going to be a limit because these are not .

我认为，实际上，会有限制，因为这些都没有。

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A soccer game is the same one every time.

足球比赛每次都是一样的。

You can actually practice for it.

你实际上可以练习一下。

A company — every day is a new day, a new puzzle box dumped on everyone’s desk.

一家公司——每一天都是新的一天，每个人的办公桌上都堆放着一个新的拼图盒。

It’s a different environment.

这是一个不同的环境。

But still, I think companies are vastly better now.

但我仍然认为公司现在好多了。

When I started as an engineer, even apprenticing under my meister, he said, “You have two years after you start writing code for a project, after which, it’s like someone puts an end in the code base, and you’re never going to change a thing again.” That was just accepted back then.

当我开始担任工程师时，甚至在我的师傅手下当学徒时，他说，“在你开始为一个项目编写代码后，你有两年的时间，之后，就像有人结束了代码库，你再也不会改变任何事情了。”这在当时是刚刚被接受的。

Now we have pieces of software that are 20 years old, and they’re a delight to work on because we just build up these understandings.

现在我们的软件已经有 20 年历史了，使用它们是一件令人愉快的事情，因为我们只是建立了这些理解。

A lot of these lessons work in other areas as well.

其中许多经验教训也适用于其他领域。

LÜTKE: Thinking we have to build products that other people like.

LÜTKE：认为我们必须打造其他人喜欢的产品。

I think this is the silent killer.

我认为这就是沉默的杀手。

Shopify — someone’s called it Kevin Kelly’s “1,000 True Fans” essay applied at scale.

Shopify ——有人称其为凯文·凯利 (Kevin Kelly) 的“1,000 个铁杆粉丝”论文的大规模应用。

Yes, everyone’s different, but actually, there are clear clusters, and the people who are willing to dedicate themselves to build a product and go through that entire rigamarole and put themselves out there .

是的，每个人都是不同的，但实际上，有明确的集群，并且那些愿意致力于构建产品并经历整个繁琐的过程并将自己展示出来的人。

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Well, actually, inside of a cluster, more like the people everyone else wants to be.

嗯，实际上，在一个集群内部，更像是其他人都想成为的人。

And if they build things that they would love to have in the world, turns out they have extreme insight and authority over this rather than running.

如果他们建造了他们想在世界上拥有的东西，事实证明他们对此拥有极端的洞察力和权威，而不是跑步。

There was some cross-pollination from The Lean Startup book to the retail world, and I think that, especially in retail, this has been bad.

《精益创业》一书对零售业产生了一些影响，我认为，尤其是在零售业，这种情况很糟糕。

I’m actually wondering if that was a good set of ideas.

我实际上想知道这是否是一套好的想法。

I think there are good ideas in the book, but it feels a little bit ungenuine to just .

我认为书中有很好的想法，但感觉有点不真诚。

.

。

.

。

Customers are not the people who should say what needs to be built.

客户不是应该说出需要构建什么的人。

I think they need to explain their problems, and the builders have to figure out how to solve these problems better.

我认为他们需要解释他们的问题，而建设者必须弄清楚如何更好地解决这些问题。

Otherwise, it’s an abdication of vision.

否则，就是放弃远见。

I think the best companies end up following a long-term vision and a long-term mission.

我认为最好的公司最终都会遵循长期愿景和长期使命。

I think that’s part of it.

我认为这是其中的一部分。

Then the people who have access to capital — they underinvest in growth.

那么那些能够获得资本的人——他们对增长的投资不足。

That always happens, too.

这种事也总是会发生。

I know, it’s scary to do internet marketing as it’s getting harder and harder, but it’s not priced out yet.

我知道，做网络营销很可怕，因为它变得越来越难，但它还没有被定价。

LÜTKE: The greatest thing about running Shopify is my customers are incredibly inspiring individuals.

LÜTKE：运营 Shopify 的最大好处是我的客户都是非常鼓舞人心的人。

In a lot of places, it’s very hard to convince people to actually talk to their customers.

在很多地方，很难说服人们真正与客户交谈。

Actually, sometimes, our problem is the opposite.

事实上，有时我们的问题恰恰相反。

We have too many people in conversations with our customers.

我们有太多人在与客户交谈。

They are super open to sharing what they see, and they’re delightfully discontented with what we give them.

他们非常愿意分享他们所看到的，并且对我们给予他们的东西感到非常满意。

They will tell us how to do this better every single time, but they will also tell us, here’s why, because they’re entrepreneurs, and Shopify is honestly like a celebration of the small bits of capitalism.

他们每次都会告诉我们如何做得更好，但他们也会告诉我们，原因如下，因为他们是企业家，而 Shopify 老实说就像是对资本主义的小点滴的庆祝。

We love entrepreneurship.

我们热爱创业。

I should say that plenty of our customers have started on Shopify and are now absolutely massive billion-dollar-plus retailers.

我应该说，我们的许多客户已经开始使用 Shopify，现在绝对是价值超过十亿美元的大型零售商。

There’s a great variety.

种类繁多。

Pretty much the entire spectrum of a retail industry in size are represented on the system now, but a lot of largest people who started on the platform, which now has been around for 20 years.

现在，该系统几乎涵盖了整个零售行业的规模，但许多最大的公司都是在这个平台上开始的，该平台现在已经存在了 20 年。

But we love entrepreneurship.

但我们热爱创业。

We love founding the concept of companies as a self-expression.

我们喜欢将创建公司的理念作为一种自我表达。

There’s glory in entrepreneurship, and it’s underappreciated.

创业有光荣，但它却被低估了。

Everyone talks about it, and politicians are always pro–business formation, but often, the behavior doesn’t conform to this.

每个人都在谈论这一点，政客们总是支持商业组织，但行为往往并不符合这一点。

It keeps getting harder policy-wise, as many have talked about; that’s certainly an aspect in Germany as well.

正如许多人所谈论的那样，从政策角度来看，它变得越来越困难。这当然也是德国的一个方面。

It gets harder and harder to start companies in some places.

有些地方开公司越来越难。

Again, the United States is the opposite.

再说一遍，美国恰恰相反。

We are not where we have APIs to start businesses, which is exactly how things should be.

我们还没有通过 API 来开展业务，而这正是事情应该发生的样子。

Friction changes the behavior a lot because everyone’s allowed to be an intelligent actor in their local incentive system, and if you are massively disincentivized of starting a company by just BS, you have to deal with what people want.

摩擦会极大地改变人们的行为，因为每个人都被允许成为当地激励体系中的聪明人，如果你仅仅因为废话而极大地抑制了创办公司的动力，那么你就必须处理人们想要什么。

We want to be a counterforce to that.

我们希望成为对此的反作用力。

We want to remove friction where we can, again, if we can potentially advocate against bad policies, but we can do a lot about what happens after the policies stop mattering, and the next step.

如果我们能够倡导反对不良政策，我们希望尽可能消除摩擦，但我们可以在政策不再重要后发生的事情以及下一步采取很多行动。

Because every single time we’ve made Shopify more approachable, or things that were previously complex and gating for people’s success, every single time we made something significantly simpler, it actually caused more success.

因为每次我们让 Shopify 变得更加平易近人，或者让以前复杂且影响人们成功的事情变得更加简单，每次我们让事情变得更加简单，它实际上会带来更多的成功。

More people who otherwise didn’t make the hurdle ended up making it through it, and not stopping is actually the thing that really, really leads to success in a reductionist way.

更多原本没有跨过这一障碍的人最终成功了，而不停歇实际上才是真正以还原论的方式带来成功的事情。

We find that to be a really, really important discovery.

我们发现这是一个非常非常重要的发现。

Again, when we are part of a journey, I like to create the incentive systems and the business system of Shopify in such a way that we are actually on the same side of the table with our customers.

再说一次，当我们成为旅程的一部分时，我喜欢以这样的方式创建 Shopify 的激励系统和业务系统，使我们实际上与客户站在同一边。

Best thing we can do to grow Shopify is make our customers more successful because we are in this together, economically speaking.

为了发展 Shopify，我们能做的最好的事情就是让我们的客户更加成功，因为从经济角度来说，我们是在一起的。

They take an active role in talking to us.

他们在与我们交谈时发挥着积极作用。

Every one of the product managers has hundreds of active WhatsApp conversations with fast-growing businesses.

每一位产品经理都与快速增长的企业进行了数百次活跃的 WhatsApp 对话。

That’s a really, really, really fun way to build a business.

这是一种非常非常有趣的创业方式。

It’s a very, very, very rare thing that your customers are often the source of your inspiration.

您的客户往往是您灵感的源泉，这是非常非常非常罕见的事情。

On books

在书本上

LÜTKE: Hmm, interesting book.

LÜTKE：嗯，有趣的书。

I’ve been on a fantasy kick, which is not super conducive to that.

我一直在幻想，这对我来说不太有利。

LÜTKE: Ha!

卢克：哈！

LÜTKE: That’s right, I read Sanderson.

LÜTKE：没错，我读过桑德森的书。

LÜTKE: They are long.

LÜTKE：它们很长。

They’re commitments.

它们是承诺。

My son read the entire Stormlight Archive, four books, on March break, and I have such reading speed envy since then.

我儿子在三月休息的时候读完了《暴光档案》的全部四本书，从那时起我就羡慕这样的阅读速度。

It takes me a lot, lot longer.

我花了很多很多时间。

Fantasy is very often a mirror to society in some reductionist way.

幻想常常以某种还原论的方式反映社会。

It’s a simulation.

这是一个模拟。

It’s a simple scenario with some variables changed, and any book that you don’t toss across a room is a book that usually has realistic characters that have some depth to them, and following their story, given the changes in the environment, is fantastic.

这是一个简单的场景，改变了一些变量，任何你不扔到房间里的书都是一本通常有现实人物的书，这些人物有一定的深度，考虑到环境的变化，跟随他们的故事是非常棒的。

Obviously, Lord of the Rings is an amazing management book, if you will.

显然，如果你愿意的话，《指环王》是一本令人惊叹的管理书籍。

Like the way Gandalf shows up at just the right time and has the exact right combination of words is certainly something that’s extremely valuable.

就像甘道夫在正确的时间出现并拥有完全正确的单词组合一样，这无疑是非常有价值的。

At least it conforms to the best version of a business system that we used to build.

至少它符合我们曾经构建的业务系统的最佳版本。

I think that’s really valuable.

我认为这真的很有价值。

I think Seeing Like a State is just a fantastic book.

我认为《像一个国家一样看待》是一本很棒的书。

LÜTKE: Yes, I saw.

卢克：是的，我看到了。

It’s yesterday or so, a couple days ago.

这是昨天左右，几天前的事。

Yes, what a fantastic mind.

是的，多么奇妙的头脑啊。

It’s one of those books you read which feels like it should be a particularly good book in a space of lots of books, but there seems to be nothing around it.

这是一本你读过的书，感觉它应该是一本在众多书籍的空间中特别好的书，但周围似乎什么也没有。

It’s just crazy.

这太疯狂了。

LÜTKE: Exactly.

卢克：没错。

There’s nothing quite like it.

没有什么比这更好的了。

It’s really wonderful.

真是太棒了。

I’ve been fascinated with the Burnham books.

我对伯纳姆的书很着迷。

LÜTKE: And The Machiavellians, especially for when they were written.

吕克：还有《马基雅维利主义者》，尤其是在它们被写成的时候。

Incredible books.

令人难以置信的书籍。

The degree by which we have known a lot of these things but haven’t known the solution to some of the things that Burnham discusses are just remarkable.

我们对这些事情的了解程度很高，但还不知道伯纳姆讨论的一些问题的解决方案，这是非常了不起的。

I think the best book I’ve read recently was A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell.

我认为我最近读过的最好的书是托马斯·索维尔的《愿景的冲突》。

I just find that an incredibly insightful book by creating a prior to a lot of political conversations, like a higher-order differentiation between people.

我发现这是一本非常有洞察力的书，它通过在许多政治对话之前创建了一个先决条件，比如人与人之间的高阶区分。

I fundamentally think humans are limited, and that’s the best thing about humans.

我从根本上认为人类是有限的，这就是人类最好的事情。

That systems that we can build can lead us to incredibly amazing feats of cooperation and coordination.

我们可以构建的系统可以引导我们实现令人难以置信的合作和协调壮举。

Optimizing everything you do to find the best set of tradeoffs feels like an extremely mature way of seeing the world.

优化你所做的一切以找到最佳的权衡，感觉像是一种极其成熟的看待世界的方式。

I’m just constantly fascinated with Sowell’s writing.

我一直对索维尔的写作着迷。

LÜTKE: I have been on a wonderful reconnecting-with-engineering kick for the last little while.

LÜTKE：最近一段时间，我一直在与工程重新建立联系。

I’ve really, really had a great time coming back.

我回来真的非常非常开心。

I think Copilot and AI have allowed me to mitigate all the downsides of not spending any weekends in work on computing projects.

我认为 Copilot 和人工智能让我减轻了不花任何周末从事计算项目的所有缺点。

Again, I’m incredibly interested in LLMs, transformer, the machine learning world.

再说一次，我对法学硕士、变压器和机器学习世界非常感兴趣。

It feels like an almost unending well of information and progress.

感觉就像是一个几乎永无休止的信息和进步之井。

I’m just fairly tapped on this.

我对此很感兴趣。

It’s hard to see this as a field because it just changes every couple of days.

很难将其视为一个领域，因为它每隔几天就会发生变化。

I am most thinking about — and I really feel like I can contribute a little bit — just figuring out how to have higher-trust companies at scale.

我最想的是 — 我真的觉得我可以做出一点贡献 — 只是弄清楚如何大规模地拥有更高信任度的公司。

People describe as “I’m a small-company person,” “I’m a big-company person.” and I just don’t think what actually the difference is.

人们形容为“我是一个小公司的人”，“我是一个大公司的人”。我只是不认为真正的区别是什么。

I think people are using labels around something they feel, and they haven’t got the right words.

我认为人们正在为他们的感受贴上标签，但他们没有找到合适的词语。

It’s probably many things that contribute to this, but certainly, parts of these things are a sense of agency and ability to impact.

可能有很多因素促成了这一点，但当然，其中部分因素是代理感和影响力。

A lot of what happens in companies is that policies and processes — they’re well-meaning.

公司中发生的很多事情都是政策和流程 ——它们都是善意的。

They bring up the floor, so no one actually does something really, really wrong.

他们提出了意见，所以没有人真正做错事。

But what people don’t see is, they also bring down the ceiling.

但人们没有看到的是，他们也降低了天花板。

You end up in these places where it doesn’t matter who you are, you’re going to do 7-out-of-10 work.

你最终会到达这些地方，无论你是谁，你都会做十分之七的工作。

Just the whole concept of entrepreneurship is about going for world class, and people need to leave in many places after a company gets to a certain size.

整个创业的理念就是要走向世界一流，公司到了一定规模之后，很多地方就需要人离开。

I really think this is simply a path-dependent, unacknowledged situation that just comes from the way we have .

我真的认为这只是一种依赖于路径的、未被承认的情况，只是来自我们现有的方式。

.

。

.

。

the tools that we had to coordinate in people, and everyone holds their dismissal of trust as a part of this.

我们必须在人们身上协调的工具，每个人都将信任的消除作为其中的一部分。

I think the best areas of a company like Shopify keep this ceiling open so that everyone can reach as high as they have ambition for.

我认为像 Shopify 这样的公司最好的领域是保持这个上限，这样每个人都可以达到他们所期望的高度。

Sometimes teams come together and just do absolute world class.

有时团队聚集在一起，就能做出绝对世界级的成绩。

That means you have to be willing to accept underperformance as well.

这意味着您也必须愿意接受表现不佳的情况。

The floor can’t be quite so high, so sometimes you get somebody who can’t ship.

楼层不能太高，所以有时你会遇到无法发货的人。

Sometimes you get something other direction, then the wrong way.

有时你会得到一些其他方向的东西，然后是错误的方式。

It all comes with the territory.

这一切都与领土有关。

Businesses tend to think about these things as disastrous events, and they’ll do everything to not experience this, and therefore stymie all creativity.

企业往往将这些事情视为灾难性事件，他们会尽一切努力避免经历这种情况，从而阻碍所有创造力。

I think we are now gaining tools and approaches that can do this at scale.

我认为我们现在正在获得可以大规模实现这一目标的工具和方法。

Just like what the engineers experience with writing code, and then you have a Copilot that helps you write code well, given what you’re working on, and quickly gain the insights that you need in the task that they vary understanding.

就像工程师编写代码的经历一样，然后你就有了一个 Copilot，可以根据你正在处理的内容帮助你很好地编写代码，并快速获得你在他们不同理解的任务中所需的见解。

Then after you are done with it, there’s automated systems that test.

完成后，就会有自动化系统进行测试。

There’s automated linting, automated unit tests, and so on.

有自动 linting、自动单元测试等等。

I know this sounds incredibly nerdy, but what this basically is, is trust plus Copilot and automated verify.

我知道这听起来非常书呆子气，但这基本上是信任加上副驾驶和自动验证。

It’s a take on the trust-but-verify thing.

这是对“信任但验证”的看法。

I think that creates a wonderfully fun environment.

我认为这创造了一个非常有趣的环境。

It turns working on areas into almost video game-ish.

它将区域工作变得几乎像电子游戏一样。

I think we know how to build these systems now, and I think we can build enormously better companies this way.

我认为我们现在知道如何构建这些系统，并且我认为我们可以通过这种方式构建更好的公司。

They’re just more fun for everyone, and they also lead to better products.

它们对每个人来说都更有趣，而且还能带来更好的产品。

This is clearly possible because I’ve seen it be possible, and we just have to come up with a couple more ideas along those ways, and we have to figure out the particular downsides because, again, nothing is perfect.

这显然是可能的，因为我已经看到它是可能的，我们只需要沿着这些方式提出更多的想法，我们必须找出特定的缺点，因为，再一次，没有什么是完美的。

It’s just different sets of tradeoffs.

这只是不同的权衡组合。

I think the tradeoffs of building a company this way, rather than just reducing it to zero trust and mechanize everything, is enormous for society and productivity, and then just fun at work.

我认为以这种方式建立一家公司的权衡，而不是仅仅将其降低到零信任并使一切机械化，对于社会和生产力来说是巨大的，而且只是工作中的乐趣。

I’m excited about that.

我对此感到很兴奋。

LÜTKE: Great conversation.

LÜTKE：很棒的谈话。

I really enjoyed this.

我真的很喜欢这个。

Thank you, Tyler.

谢谢你，泰勒。