Ted Gioia on Music as Cultural Cloud Storage (Ep. 79)
Hello.
你好。
I’m very honored today to be here with Ted Gioia.
今天我很荣幸能和特德·乔亚一起来到这里。
Ted is probably my favorite writer on music and also my favorite person to read and follow on Twitter, and he has a new book out, which has made a big splash, called Music: A Subversive History.
特德可能是我最喜欢的音乐作家，也是我最喜欢在 Twitter 上阅读和关注的人，他出版了一本引起轰动的新书，名为《音乐：颠覆性的历史》。
Ted, welcome.
特德，欢迎。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Let’s start with some questions about music.
让我们从一些关于音乐的问题开始。
Do you think our collective memory from music is decaying more rapidly because communications technologies move so much faster and preserve things so much better?
您认为我们对音乐的集体记忆是否会因为通信技术发展得更快、保存得更好而加速衰退？
What people don’t understand is that, for most of history, music was a kind of cloud storage for societies.
人们不明白的是，在历史的大部分时间里，音乐都是社会的一种云存储。
I like to tell people that music is a technology for societies that don’t have semiconductors or spaceships.
我想告诉人们，音乐是一种适合没有半导体或宇宙飞船的社会的技术。
If you go to any traditional community, and you try to find the historian, generally it’s a singer.
如果你去任何一个传统社区，试图找到历史学家，通常是一位歌手。
Music would preserve culture; it would preserve folklore.
音乐可以保存文化；它将保护民间传说。
Well, nowadays, we rely on cloud storage to be the preserver of these same things.
如今，我们依靠云存储来保存这些相同的东西。
And I think there’s a strange shift.
我认为这是一个奇怪的转变。
Both we rely on the cloud to preserve our music, but also, we no longer rely on music to preserve our culture.
我们不仅依靠云来保存我们的音乐，而且我们不再依靠音乐来保存我们的文化。
This is potentially a dangerous thing because it could create a situation where our musical lives grow more and more distant from our actual social lives with the people around us in our larger community.
这可能是一件危险的事情，因为它可能会造成一种情况，即我们的音乐生活与我们在更大的社区中与周围的人的实际社交生活越来越遥远。
Does music today still carry new ideas?
今天的音乐还承载着新的想法吗？
If you think about radio in the 1960s, there’s the idea of drug culture, of psychedelia, antiwar protests.
如果你想到 20 世纪 60 年代的广播，就会想到毒品文化、迷幻剂和反战抗议。
Those are often carried by music and by the radio.
这些通常通过音乐和广播来传达。
But today, the internet carries the ideas more or less for free.
但今天，互联网或多或少免费传播这些想法。
Do we even need music for that?
我们还需要音乐吗？
There’s a very prevalent view now that music is just diversion or idle entertainment.
现在有一种非常流行的观点认为音乐只是消遣或闲置的娱乐。
You know, Steven Pinker is the great exponent of this.
你知道，史蒂文·平克（Steven Pinker）是这方面的伟大代表。
He calls music auditory cheesecake, and he’ll tell you that music is just for brain stimulation.
他称音乐为听觉芝士蛋糕，他会告诉你音乐只是为了刺激大脑。
For example, I would listen to a song the same way I might drink a martini or use recreational drugs.
例如，我听一首歌就像喝马提尼酒或服用消遣性药物一样。
I really think this misses the point.
我真的认为这没有抓住重点。
I do think music is embedded in ideas and culture and takes place in the world at a much more intricate level than Pinker understands.
我确实认为音乐嵌入在思想和文化中，并且在世界上发生的程度比平克理解的要复杂得多。
For example, hardly a week goes by when I don’t read about a musician somewhere in the world getting into trouble with politicians.
例如，几乎每周我都会读到世界某个地方的音乐家与政客陷入麻烦的报道。
Putin will try to stop a group from performing in Saudi Arabia.
普京将试图阻止一个团体在沙特阿拉伯演出。
Somebody will be thrown into prison for a song.
有人会因为一首歌而被投入监狱。
Recently the Hong Kong protests have used music very actively.
最近香港的抗议活动非常积极地使用音乐。
I just read the other day about a protest song in Hong Kong, where the composer has to remain anonymous because it’s so dangerous to have composed this song.
前几天我刚刚读到香港的一首抗议歌曲，作曲家必须保持匿名，因为创作这首歌太危险了。
This is a good reminder of how powerful music is.
这很好地提醒了我们音乐的力量有多么强大。
It’s not just diversion.
这不仅仅是转移注意力。
Another example: recently there was a rap song in Thailand that criticized the government, and this really shook up the politicians.
再比如，最近泰国有一首说唱歌曲批评政府，这确实震动了政界人士。
The funny thing is, they tried to respond to it.
有趣的是，他们试图对此做出回应。
The government released its own rap song, which of course was widely mocked and ridiculed.
政府发行了自己的说唱歌曲，当然遭到了广泛的嘲笑和嘲笑。
But it tells you that the people in position of authorities know that music conveys ideas.
但它告诉你，当权者知道音乐传达思想。
It conveys power.
它传递力量。
It’s not just idle entertainment.
这不仅仅是闲置的娱乐。
One of the things I try to do in my history books, for example, is to show that larger power of music.
例如，我在历史书中试图做的一件事就是展示音乐的更大力量。
On music streaming
关于音乐流媒体
Is the advent of streaming for music a net gain or a net loss for the quality of music?
音乐流媒体的出现对于音乐质量来说是净收益还是净损失？
Not counting convenience of the listener, but just the quality of the music.
不考虑听众的便利性，只考虑音乐的质量。
Don’t they now put all the good stuff in the first 30 seconds of the song?
他们现在不是把所有好东西都放在歌曲的前30秒里了吗？
Well, that’s right.
嗯，没错。
You have to have people hold on for a few seconds in order for you to get your royalty from the stream, so people have actually changed how they compose music to match the technology.
你必须让人们坚持几秒钟才能从流媒体中获得版税，因此人们实际上已经改变了他们创作音乐的方式以适应技术。
But I will say, that’s always been the case to some extent.
但我想说，在某种程度上，情况一直如此。
I do believe every kind of new technology changes how people sing and perform.
我确实相信每一种新技术都会改变人们唱歌和表演的方式。
If you go back into the 1920s, the first really advanced microphones were developed, and this allowed people to sing differently.
如果你回到 20 年代，第一批真正先进的麦克风被开发出来，这使得人们能够以不同的方式唱歌。
All of a sudden, Bing Crosby comes along.
突然，平·克罗斯比出现了。
He can use these new microphones, and he can sing at a very whispery, conversational voice, which is very expressive.
他可以使用这些新的麦克风，并且可以用一种非常低声的、对话般的声音唱歌，这是非常富有表现力的。
So if you compare, for example, recordings made in 1925 with 1935, a completely different way of singing took place.
因此，如果你将 1925 年和 1935 年录制的唱片进行比较，就会发现完全不同的演唱方式。
We’re going through the same thing right now.
我们现在正在经历同样的事情。
People are singing differently to prosper on streaming sites.
为了在流媒体网站上繁荣，人们以不同的方式唱歌。
I don’t think that bothers me as much as the economic impact of streaming and also just the impact on sound quality with the compressed sound.
我认为这不像流媒体的经济影响以及压缩声音对音质的影响那么困扰我。
In fact, I would say that music is the only form of entertainment in which the technology has gotten worse during my lifetime.
事实上，我想说音乐是我一生中技术变得更糟的唯一娱乐形式。
I go to movies now, and it’s this big screen and surround sound.
我现在去看电影，就是大屏幕和环绕声。
Video games put the Pong that I used to play to shame.
电子游戏让我以前玩的乒乓球相形见绌。
TV is so good, it’s being called a golden age of television.
电视太好了，被称为电视的黄金时代。
But in music, most of us listen to songs on these lousy handheld devices.
但在音乐方面，我们大多数人都是在这些糟糕的手持设备上听歌曲。
Most people in my generation had better sound systems as teenagers than they do now.
我们这一代的大多数人在青少年时期都拥有比现在更好的音响系统。
That worries me more than the whole idea of how songs are written.
这比歌曲的创作方式更让我担心。
I’m really concerned about the technology lessening the whole listening experience.
我真的很担心这项技术会削弱整个聆听体验。
Why has music been special in this regard?
为什么音乐在这方面很特别？
You can still buy an audiophile sound system, but it seems fewer people are interested.
您仍然可以购买发烧级音响系统，但感兴趣的人似乎越来越少。
I think the key thing is that the technology stopped advancing, so people aren’t excited about it anymore.
我认为关键是技术停止了进步，所以人们不再对此感到兴奋。
I think it’s very useful to go back and look at record companies in the 1930s, 1940s.
我认为回顾 20 世纪 30 年代、1940 年代的唱片公司是非常有用的。
RCA was the premier record company back then, but they were also the Apple computer of their day.
RCA 是当时首屈一指的唱片公司，但他们也是当时的苹果电脑。
RCA invented new microphones.
RCA 发明了新的麦克风。
They invented the 45 RPM single.
他们发明了 45 RPM 单曲。
They invented a lot of sound technologies, and they did it to enhance the listening experience.
他们发明了很多声音技术，他们这样做是为了增强聆听体验。
Classic example: in the 1960s, RCA really commercialized color television.
经典例子：20世纪60年代，RCA真正将彩色电视商业化。
The reason they did it is because they owned NBC, and they understood, if you improve the technology for the audience, it will get people to consume the TV shows.
他们这样做的原因是因为他们拥有 NBC，他们明白，如果你为观众改进技术，就会让人们消费电视节目。
What happened in the 1980s is, record labels stopped investing in new technology.
20 世纪 80 年代发生的事情是，唱片公司停止了对新技术的投资。
The way Columbia would invent the long-playing album or Sony would invent the Walkman — that stopped, and they handed technology off to Silicon Valley, which had very different reasons.
就像哥伦比亚发明了长时间播放的专辑或索尼发明了随身听一样——这种方式停止了，他们将技术交给了硅谷，而硅谷的原因却截然不同。
They didn’t want to increase the listening experience.
他们不想增加聆听体验。
They wanted to sell devices or advertising.
他们想出售设备或广告。
I do believe that there’s a fundamental change.
我确实相信这是一个根本性的变化。
People can, it’s true, buy high-degree audio equipment, but they don’t because the companies in the music industry have stopped innovating.
确实，人们可以购买高级音频设备，但他们之所以不这样做，是因为音乐行业的公司已经停止创新。
Now, you also have a background in management consulting and venture capital.
现在，您还拥有管理咨询和风险投资的背景。
So tell us, does Spotify have a viable business model, yes or no?
那么请告诉我们，Spotify 是否有可行的商业模式，是或否？
I’m well known as a critic of streaming, and I also believe that the economics of streaming are fundamentally flawed, but I don’t believe it’s going to go away.
我是众所周知的流媒体批评者，我也认为流媒体的经济学存在根本性缺陷，但我不相信它会消失。
I do believe there’s going to be a painful retrenching and downsizing.
我确实相信将会有一场痛苦的紧缩和裁员。
We already see Netflix, which has $15 billion in debt, announce the other day they’re going to borrow $2 billion more.
我们已经看到负债 150 亿美元的 Netflix 有一天宣布将再借入 20 亿美元。
They’ve got a huge audience, but they can’t even cover their costs.
他们拥有大量观众，但他们甚至无法支付费用。
They’ve been negative cash flow every quarter for five straight years.
他们连续五年每个季度都出现负现金流。
Spotify still isn’t profitable.
Spotify 仍然没有盈利。
I believe Spotify will become profitable, but they’re going to do it by putting the squeeze on people.
我相信 Spotify 将会盈利，但他们将通过挤压用户来实现这一目标。
Musicians will suffer even more, probably, in the future than they have in the past.
音乐家在未来可能会比过去遭受更多的痛苦。
What’s good for Spotify is not good for the whole music ecosystem.
对 Spotify 有利的事情并不会对整个音乐生态系统有利。
Let me make one more point here.
让我在这里再强调一点。
I think it’s very important.
我认为这非常重要。
If you go back a few years ago, there was a value chain in music — started with the musician, worked for the record label.
如果你回到几年前，音乐有一个价值链——从音乐家开始，为唱片公司工作。
The records went to the record distributor.
这些唱片被交给了唱片发行商。
They went to the retailer, who sold the record to the consumer.
他们去了零售商，零售商将唱片卖给消费者。
At that point, everybody in that chain had a vested interest in a healthy music ecosystem in which people enjoyed songs.
那时，该链条中的每个人都对健康的音乐生态系统有既得利益，人们可以在其中享受歌曲。
The more people enjoyed songs, the better business was for everybody.
越多的人喜欢歌曲，每个人的生意就越好。
That chain has been broken now.
现在这条链条已经被打破了。
Apple would give away songs for free to sell devices.
苹果会免费赠送歌曲来销售设备。
They don’t care about the viability of the music sub-economy.
他们不关心音乐子经济的生存能力。
For them, it could be a loss leader.
对他们来说，这可能是亏损的。
Google doesn’t care about music.
谷歌不关心音乐。
They would give music away for free to sell ads.
他们会免费赠送音乐来销售广告。
In fact, they do that on YouTube.
事实上，他们在 YouTube 上就是这样做的。
The fundamental change here is, you now have a distribution system for music in which some of the players do not have a vested interest in the broader musical experience and ecosystem.
这里的根本变化是，你现在拥有一个音乐发行系统，其中一些玩家对更广泛的音乐体验和生态系统没有既得利益。
This is tremendously dangerous, and that’s the real reason why I fear the growth of streaming, is because the people involved in streaming don’t like music.
这是非常危险的，这就是我担心流媒体增长的真正原因，因为参与流媒体的人不喜欢音乐。
In fact — and this is amazing — the CEO of Spotify said, “We’re not in the music business.
事实上，令人惊讶的是，Spotify 的首席执行官表示：“我们不从事音乐业务。
We sell subscriptions.
我们出售订阅。
We don’t sell music; we sell subscriptions.” That’s very dangerous, and that tells you that you have parties here that are going in completely different directions, and it’s not going to be good for the health of our music culture.
我们不卖音乐；我们卖音乐。我们出售订阅。”这是非常危险的，这告诉你这里的派对正朝着完全不同的方向发展，这对我们音乐文化的健康没有好处。
What’s the chance we simply regret the entire advent of the internet?
我们对互联网的出现感到遗憾的可能性有多大？
Well, I don’t think that’s true.
嗯，我认为那不是真的。
I am not one of these Luddites.
我不是这些勒德分子中的一员。
I hear people in the music industry saying, “Oh, Ted, everything would be great if the internet would just go away.” The record labels wanted to make that happen, so they sued everybody.
我听到音乐行业的人说：“哦，特德，如果互联网消失，一切都会很棒。”唱片公司希望实现这一目标，因此他们起诉了所有人。
They sued Napster.
他们起诉了纳普斯特。
In fact, I say that the record labels had their strategy, which I call the three Ls, which was lobbying, legislation, and litigation.
事实上，我说唱片公司有他们的策略，我称之为“3L”，即游说、立法和诉讼。
I don’t think those are strategies.
我不认为这些是策略。
The strategy they should have is the consumer experience.
他们应该采取的策略是消费者体验。
I wish that the record labels had invested in new recording technologies — super vinyl, better technology for the listener — instead of just suing everybody and trying to pass new laws.
我希望唱片公司投资于新的录音技术——超级黑胶唱片，为听众提供更好的技术——而不是仅仅起诉所有人并试图通过新的法律。
As you well know, if you compare American popular music in 1963 to American popular music in 1968, over a period of five years, it sounds really quite completely different.
众所周知，如果你将1963年的美国流行音乐与1968年的美国流行音乐进行比较，历时五年，听起来确实截然不同。
And you can tell, upon hearing music from either year, which year it’s from.
你可以通过听到任一年份的音乐来判断它来自哪一年。
That doesn’t seem to be the case today.
今天的情况似乎并非如此。
Is there still real innovation in American popular music?
美国流行音乐还有真正的创新吗？
Well, what happened in the 1960s is an anomaly.
嗯，20 世纪 60 年代发生的事情是一个反常现象。
I don’t think it will ever happen again.
我认为这种事不会再发生了。
And what happened is — you must give credit to the Beatles because everyone was imitating the Beatles, and they changed their sounds every six months, every year.
发生的事情是——你必须归功于披头士乐队，因为每个人都在模仿披头士乐队，他们每六个月、每年都会改变自己的声音。
People always tell me, “Ted, do you like the highbrow music and the lowbrow music?” I say, “No, no. The real conflict is not between high and low.
人们总是告诉我，“特德，你喜欢高雅音乐还是低俗音乐？”我说：“不，不。真正的冲突不是高低之间的冲突。
The real challenge in music is the formula, where formula emerges, and then everybody imitates the formula.” And that’s what deadens your musical culture, the repetition of the formula.
音乐中真正的挑战是公式，公式出现，然后每个人都模仿这个公式。”这就是让你的音乐文化变得僵化的原因，即公式的重复。
And the Beatles, for a period of five, six years, made sure there was no formula.
披头士乐队在五六年的时间里，确保没有公式。
This is amazing.
这太棒了。
It never happened before.
以前从未发生过这种情况。
It probably will never happen again.
它可能永远不会再发生了。
The real challenge in music is the formula, where formula emerges, and then everybody imitates the formula.
音乐中真正的挑战是公式，公式出现，然后每个人都模仿这个公式。
And that’s what deadens your musical culture, the repetition of the formula.
这就是让你的音乐文化变得僵化的原因，即公式的重复。
If you tried to imitate the Beatles in 1964, ’65, you soon were out of date.
如果你试图模仿 1964 年、65 年的披头士乐队，你很快就过时了。
For example, the Monkees tried to do exactly that.
例如，蒙基乐队就试图这样做。
The Monkees imitated a certain Beatles sound.
门基乐队模仿了披头士乐队的某种声音。
But by the time the first episode was on TV, the Beatles were already off to something else.
但当第一集在电视上播出时，披头士乐队已经开始做其他事情了。
I do think you had this amazing period for five, six years where there was no set formula in the music business.
我确实认为你经历了五六年的这段奇妙时期，音乐行业没有固定的公式。
It was an amazing time.
那是一段美妙的时光。
I think we should enjoy it for what it was, but I don’t think we should expect it to come back.
我认为我们应该享受它的本来面目，但我认为我们不应该指望它会回来。
What’s the most subtle Beatles song?
披头士乐队最微妙的歌曲是什么？
The most subtle Beatles songs?
最微妙的披头士乐队歌曲？
Yes.
是的。
Well, that’s a hard one.
嗯，这很难。
I’m one of these strange chronologists who believed the Beatles just got better and better.
我是这些奇怪的年代学家之一，我相信披头士乐队正在变得越来越好。
And I think you could make a case each album is better than the last.
我认为你可以证明每张专辑都比上一张更好。
When you get to side two of Abbey Road, for me, and when they stitch together all these song fragments — these weren’t even completed songs.
当你到达艾比路的第二侧时，对我来说，当他们将所有这些歌曲片段拼接在一起时 - 这些甚至都不是完整的歌曲。
These were just things they had been sitting on, and they found some way to bring it all together into this album in which they had a complete suite to literally end their career on the album.
这些只是他们一直坐拥的东西，他们找到了一些方法将它们全部整合到这张专辑中，在这张专辑中他们拥有了完整的组曲，可以在这张专辑中真正结束他们的职业生涯。
To me, that’s probably the epitome of both subtlety and artistic expression.
对我来说，这可能是微妙和艺术表达的缩影。
But if we look at broader trends — so in the 1960s, we have what we now call classic rock and the Beatles, also in the ’70s.
但如果我们放眼更广泛的趋势，那么在 20 世纪 60 年代，我们就有了现在所谓的经典摇滚和披头士乐队，同样在 70 年代。
The early 1980s, rap comes along.
20 世纪 80 年代初，说唱音乐兴起。
It’s still with us — maybe that’s surprising.
它仍然在我们身边——也许这令人惊讶。
In the early ’90s, you might say there’s electronica.
在 90 年代初，你可能会说有电子乐。
But what has been since then that’s new?
但从那以后有什么新鲜事呢？
What’s the next big thing?
下一件大事是什么？
Or has it stopped?
或者已经停止了？
Well, there’s a certain irony here.
嗯，这里有一定的讽刺意味。
The music business always prided itself on disrupting the culture with some new sound.
音乐行业总是以用新的声音颠覆文化而自豪。
But the big thing in the last 20 years is, the music business itself has been disrupted.
但过去 20 年最重要的事情是，音乐行业本身已经被颠覆。
They’re on the receiving end, and tech companies in Silicon Valley have done the disrupting.
他们处于接收端，而硅谷的科技公司已经造成了破坏。
And what they’re disrupting is not the sound of music.
他们破坏的不是音乐的声音。
It’s actually the whole socioeconomic setting of music.
这实际上是音乐的整个社会经济背景。
Now, you ask yourself, what did the music industry do to respond to this?
现在，你问自己，音乐产业对此做了什么回应？
What was their big innovation?
他们的重大创新是什么？
And it’s almost laughable.
这几乎是可笑的。
If you go back to the early years of this century, when the internet was taking over music distribution and the music culture, the biggest innovation in music was — and this is sad to say — it was the TV reality-show singing contest.
如果你回到本世纪初，当互联网接管音乐发行和音乐文化时，音乐领域最大的创新——令人遗憾的是——是电视真人秀歌唱比赛。
This was the big innovation that the music industry used to respond to this complete disruption and everything else.
这是音乐行业用来应对这种彻底颠覆和其他一切的重大创新。
“Well, we’ll do American Idol; we’ll do America’s Got Talent.” It would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.
“好吧，我们会做《美国偶像》；我们会做《美国达人秀》。”如果不是那么可悲的话那就很有趣了。
I want to make one more observation, though.
不过，我还想再作一项观察。
There are periods in music where it seems like there’s a lull and that we’ve reached some happy end point.
音乐中有时会出现一段平静的时期，我们已经到达了某个幸福的终点。
My historical research tells me that those happy end points never last.
我的历史研究告诉我，那些幸福的结局永远不会持久。
Take for example, the rise of rock and roll.
以摇滚乐的兴起为例。
Five years earlier, the music industry thought they had it all solved.
五年前，音乐界认为他们已经解决了所有问题。
“Oh, people want lifestyle music.
“哦，人们想要生活方式音乐。
We’ll do romantic ballads by Sinatra.”
我们将演奏西纳特拉的浪漫民谣。”
They came out with mood music albums.
他们推出了情绪音乐专辑。
They invented these amazing albums called bachelor pad albums back then, and novelty songs.
他们发明了这些令人惊叹的专辑，当时被称为单身汉专辑，还有新奇的歌曲。
And the music industry in 1952, 1953 thought they had it all figured out.
1952、1953 年的音乐界认为他们已经解决了这一切。
They thought they had reached the perfect song for every moment in your day.
他们认为他们已经为您一天中的每个时刻创作了完美的歌曲。
And then five years later, rock and roll changed everything with disruption.
五年后，摇滚乐颠覆性地改变了一切。
How did this happen?
这是怎么发生的？
What they don’t realize, people want disruption.
但他们没有意识到，人们想要的是颠覆。
The same thing happened in the 1970s.
同样的事情也发生在 20 世纪 70 年代。
The early 1970s was the gentle singer-songwriter.
1970年代初是温柔的创作型歌手。
You could take those Carole King albums or James Taylor albums.
你可以拿卡罗尔·金的专辑或詹姆斯·泰勒的专辑。
You could play them for Grandma.
你可以为奶奶演奏。
Grandma would love them.
奶奶会喜欢他们的。
You couldn’t have something that was more beautiful and had wider appeal, but people wanted disruption again.
你无法拥有更美丽、更有吸引力的东西，但人们想要再次颠覆。
So at the end of the ’70s, you had punk rock, disco, new wave.
所以在 70 年代末，出现了朋克摇滚、迪斯科和新浪潮。
The important thing to understand is, not only is there disruption in music.
需要理解的重要一点是，不仅仅是音乐方面存在中断。
People crave the disruption.
人们渴望颠覆。
Look at right now.
看看现在。
Right now, we’re told that we’ve reached this happily ever after.
现在，我们被告知我们已经幸福地走到了这一步。
Tech companies were going to use artificial intelligence to find the perfect song for every moment in our day.
科技公司将利用人工智能来为我们的每一刻找到完美的歌曲。
It will be curated.
它将被策划。
There’ll be these wonderful feedback loops.
将会有这些美妙的反馈循环。
Robots will create the perfect musical life.
机器人将创造完美的音乐生活。
My belief, based on my understanding of music history, is that won’t happen.
根据我对音乐史的理解，我相信这种情况不会发生。
There will be disruption, and it will come from an unexpected place, and this happily ever after we’ve supposedly reached won’t last.
将会出现混乱，而且它会来自一个意想不到的地方，而我们所达到的幸福生活不会持续太久。
What’s the popular song you’re most embarrassed to admit to really liking?
你最不好意思承认自己真正喜欢的流行歌曲是哪一首？
What are the popular .
流行什么。
.
。
.
。
I mentioned the Monkees before.
我之前提到过Monkees。
I like the Monkees.
我喜欢蒙基队。
So do I.
我也一样。
“Last Train to Clarksville” is excellent.
《去克拉克斯维尔的末班车》非常棒。
Gilbert O’Sullivan, I’m a big fan of, and that’s kind of terrible.
吉尔伯特·奥沙利文，我是他的忠实粉丝，这有点糟糕。
I love well-crafted pop music.
我喜欢精心制作的流行音乐。
But what really embarrasses you?
但真正让你感到尴尬的是什么呢？
What admission can I squeeze out of you?
我能从你嘴里挤出什么来？
When I was a teenager, I listened to Emerson, Lake, and Palmer.
当我十几岁的时候，我听过艾默生、莱克和帕尔默的作品。
Now that’s embarrassing.
现在这很尴尬。
Right before I discovered jazz, I was listening to Keith Emerson.
就在我发现爵士乐之前，我正在听基思·爱默生 (Keith Emerson)。
This was the quandary I was in.
这就是我当时所处的困境。
It was jazz, in a way.
从某种意义上说，这就是爵士乐。
It prepared me for jazz.
它让我为爵士乐做好了准备。
It really did.
确实如此。
When I was a teenager, I was playing piano, and this was the problem I faced.
当我十几岁的时候，我正在弹钢琴，这就是我面临的问题。
I liked rock because of its emotional immediacy, but it didn’t have the sophistication I wanted.
我喜欢摇滚是因为它的情感直接，但它没有我想要的复杂性。
Then I loved classical music like Bach for the sophistication, but it didn’t have the emotional immediacy.
然后我喜欢巴赫这样的古典音乐，因为它的复杂性，但它没有情感上的直接性。
And I said, “I need something that brings together both.”
我说：“我需要一些将两者结合在一起的东西。”
Then I walked into a jazz club.
然后我走进了一家爵士俱乐部。
Literally, I walked into the Lighthouse in Hermosa Beach, California.
从字面上看，我走进了加利福尼亚州赫莫萨海滩的灯塔。
I was a high school student.
我是一名高中生。
I sat down, the music started, and within 10 seconds, I said to myself, “This is what I’ve been waiting for.” Really, it was this epiphanal moment.
我坐下来，音乐响起，不到 10 秒，我对自己说：“这就是我一直在等待的。”确实，这就是顿悟时刻。
But before that, it was Keith Emerson.
但在此之前，是基思·爱默生。
Who is the best shaman in the history of rock music?
谁是摇滚乐史上最好的萨满？
It’s a key theme in your book, right?
这是你书中的一个关键主题，对吧？
Music: A Subversive History.
音乐：颠覆性的历史。
The importance of the shaman, the rebel, the outsider.
萨满、叛逆者、局外人的重要性。
I would say Bob Dylan.
我会说鲍勃·迪伦。
I think that there’s this mystical aspect of music in which it becomes very hypnotic, but it’s also embedded in the culture.
我认为音乐有一个神秘的方面，它变得非常催眠，但它也根植于文化中。
It’s life changing.
这正在改变生活。
It reaches on a personal level but also has these broader social levels.
它不仅涉及个人层面，而且还涉及更广泛的社会层面。
I don’t think anybody’s brought that together better in my lifetime than Bob Dylan.
我认为在我的一生中，没有人比鲍勃·迪伦（Bob Dylan）更能将这些融为一体。
I was very happy when he won the Nobel Prize.
当他获得诺贝尔奖时我非常高兴。
I know purists were angry.
我知道纯粹主义者很生气。
Songs are not literature.
歌曲不是文学。
But hey, if you go back to the roots, Homer was a singer.
但是，嘿，如果你追根溯源，荷马是一名歌手。
If you go back to the roots, Sappho was a singer.
如果你追根溯源，萨福是一名歌手。
The origin of literature is song.
文学的起源是歌曲。
So for someone like Dylan, he would capture that for me.
所以对于像迪伦这样的人来说，他会为我捕捉到这一点。
Was Jim Morrison a wonderful shaman but a terrible musician and poet?
吉姆·莫里森是一位出色的萨满巫师，但却是一位糟糕的音乐家和诗人吗？
I think he was.
我想他是。
How many times can you rhyme fire and higher?
你能押韵多少次“fire”和“higher”？
“I Am the Lizard King,” right?
“我是蜥蜴王”，对吗？
That’s shaman-like.
这就像萨满一样。
Okay, I will not dismiss the importance of someone’s charisma and their personal magnetism.
好吧，我不会忽视某人的魅力和个人魅力的重要性。
And someone like Jim Morrison possessed that definitely.
像吉姆·莫里森这样的人绝对具备这一点。
And you have to give the Doors credit for that.
你必须为此赞扬门队。
But if you were evaluating Morrison just on his songwriting skills, I don’t think they hold up.
但如果你仅仅根据莫里森的歌曲创作技巧来评价他，我认为它们站不住脚。
It’s funny, one of my favorite pianists, Friedrich Gulda, did these theme and variations on “Light My Fire.” I thought he was a brilliant musician, but that was just not the piece you could turn into theme and variations.
有趣的是，我最喜欢的钢琴家之一弗里德里希·古尔达（Friedrich Gulda）在“Light My Fire”中创作了这些主题和变奏。我认为他是一位出色的音乐家，但这不是你可以将其变成主题和变奏的作品。
It was even worse than Diabelli’s Melody that Beethoven worked with.
比贝多芬合作过的迪亚贝利的旋律还要糟糕。
Is Gulda better as a Beethoven player or a jazz musician?
古尔达作为贝多芬演奏家更好还是爵士音乐家更好？
Well, he’s famous more as a Beethoven player, and he’s great, but he’s very underrated as a jazz musician.
嗯，他作为贝多芬演奏家而出名，而且他很伟大，但作为爵士音乐家，他被严重低估了。
But also is a Beethoven player.
而且还是一位贝多芬演奏家。
His Sonatas №1, №25 are maybe the two best recordings of those sonatas.
他的第一奏鸣曲和第二十五奏鸣曲可能是这些奏鸣曲中最好的两张唱片。
And Gulda’s an amazing guy.
古尔达是一个了不起的人。
I don’t know why he’s forgotten.
我不知道为什么他被遗忘了。
He’s also a great composer.
他也是一位伟大的作曲家。
His compositions should be resurrected.
他的作品应该复活。
Occasionally I see someone play them.
偶尔我会看到有人玩这些。
But a fascinating guy, and he’s one of these people that was punished by being able to do too many things well because society wants to put you in a pigeonhole.
但他是一个很迷人的人，他是那些因为能把太多事情做好而受到惩罚的人之一，因为社会想把你放在一个笼子里。
I felt this in my own life.
我在自己的生活中也感受到了这一点。
Society wants to put you in a certain pigeonhole that you just do this, and if you don’t want to live in that narrow space, you’re punished.
社会想把你放在一个特定的笼子里，你只要这样做，如果你不想生活在那个狭窄的空间里，你就会受到惩罚。
And Gulda was like that.
古尔达就是这样的。
If we think about the accelerated advancement of women in music — today it might be St. Vincent, Laura Marling, but there are many, many more.
如果我们考虑一下女性在音乐领域的加速进步——今天可能是圣文森特、劳拉·马林，但还有很多很多。
Do they fit into the shaman model the same way that the men do?
她们是否像男人一样适合萨满模式？
Well, my book shows that, again and again, throughout history, female musicians were innovators.
嗯，我的书一次又一次地表明，纵观历史，女性音乐家都是创新者。
Then once their work was assimilated by the broader society, these origins were hidden from view.
然后，一旦他们的作品被更广泛的社会同化，这些起源就被隐藏起来了。
One of the reasons why women were innovators is because their music tended to tap more into the emotional power of music.
女性成为创新者的原因之一是她们的音乐更倾向于挖掘音乐的情感力量。
If you go back to Plato, it’s very clear that there are two kinds of music.
如果你回到柏拉图，很明显有两种音乐。
There’s a music that he favors, which instills order in society.
他喜欢一种音乐，这种音乐可以给社会灌输秩序。
It sings the praises of great men, and it brings people together for the social good.
它歌颂伟人，它使人们为了社会公益而聚集在一起。
But he understood that there was a second kind of music that was really involved in personal emotion and self-expression.
但他明白还有第二种音乐真正涉及个人情感和自我表达。
He associated that with women, and rightly so, because that really comes out of Sappho.
他将这一点与女性联系在一起，这是正确的，因为这确实来自萨福。
And it comes out of what I call the three Ls of female singing: the lullaby, the love song, and the lament, always associated with women.
它源于我所说的女性歌唱的“三L”：摇篮曲、情歌和哀歌，总是与女性联系在一起。
So the idea that women have a special place in musical culture going back for thousands of years is something I take very seriously.
因此，我非常重视女性在几千年前的音乐文化中占有特殊地位的想法。
And I think it’s surprising, in fact, nowadays, how much connection there is between the music women sing now and the origins of the music that came out of women thousands of years ago.
事实上，我认为令人惊讶的是，当今女性所唱的音乐与数千年前女性所唱的音乐的起源之间有如此多的联系。
Why are restaurants so much noisier today?
为什么今天餐馆这么吵？
And they’re still getting noisier.
而且他们仍然变得越来越吵闹。
In fact, I’ve got to say I prefer the quiet restaurant, but I understand everybody else wants the noisy restaurant.
事实上，我不得不说我更喜欢安静的餐厅，但我知道其他人都想要吵闹的餐厅。
And I do think we’re going back to René Girard territory, where everything’s imitation, where you choose the restaurant not on what’s the best food, but what other people are doing that I can imitate.
我确实认为我们会回到雷内·吉拉德的领域，那里的一切都是模仿，你选择餐厅的标准不是最好的食物，而是我可以模仿的其他人在做什么。
There are two restaurants in town.
镇上有两家餐馆。
You go in the one with the most people.
你就去人最多的那一间。
I think that imitative behavior patterns explain much more in society than we care to admit.
我认为模仿行为模式对社会的解释比我们愿意承认的要多得多。
But there’s much more noise pollution more generally.
但更普遍的是，噪音污染要多得多。
Restaurants are noisier.
餐馆比较吵。
It seems that music, in general, is louder.
一般来说，音乐似乎比较响亮。
And in terms of dynamic compression, the range is much narrower.
而就动态压缩而言，范围要窄得多。
So why is there this general tendency toward more noise?
那么，为什么噪音会普遍增加呢？
Why are markets undersupplying peace and quiet?
为什么市场缺乏和平与安静？
Because they want to stand out.
因为他们想脱颖而出。
It’s interesting, in my book I talk about the very first musicians, who were hunter-gatherers.
有趣的是，在我的书中，我谈到了最早的音乐家，他们是狩猎采集者。
What they did was fascinating because back then there were no loud sounds.
他们所做的事情很有趣，因为那时没有大声的声音。
You could live your whole life in prehistoric times and maybe never hear a loud sound unless you went near a waterfall or maybe during a thunderstorm.
你可能一生都生活在史前时代，也许永远听不到响亮的声音，除非你靠近瀑布或可能在雷暴期间。
But for the most part everything was quiet.
但大部分时间一切都很安静。
So that’s why there’s a plausible theory that the early hunter-gatherers invented choral singing to hunt.
这就是为什么有一个似乎合理的理论，即早期狩猎采集者发明了合唱来狩猎。
They were scavengers, and they didn’t try to kill the lion themselves.
他们是食腐动物，他们并没有试图亲手杀死狮子。
They let the lion kill the prey.
他们让狮子杀死猎物。
Then they would sing together to scare away the lion, and they would get the food.
然后他们会一起唱歌吓跑狮子，然后他们就会得到食物。
That tells you that back then, loud sounds were so rare that they were an amazing expression of power.
这告诉你，在当时，大声的声音是如此罕见，以至于它们是一种令人惊叹的力量表达。
You could live your whole life in prehistoric times and maybe never hear a loud sound unless you went near a waterfall or maybe during a thunderstorm.
你可能一生都生活在史前时代，也许永远听不到响亮的声音，除非你靠近瀑布或可能在雷暴期间。
But for the most part everything was quiet.
但大部分时间一切都很安静。
So that’s why there’s a plausible theory that the early hunter-gatherers invented choral singing to hunt.
这就是为什么有一个似乎合理的理论，即早期狩猎采集者发明了合唱来狩猎。
The thing to remember is, even today, loud sounds are an expression of power, notoriety.
要记住的是，即使在今天，响亮的声音也是权力和恶名的表现。
So you have competition in terms of sound, and the restaurants believe — and maybe rightly — that they’re going to stand out with the noisier environment.
因此，在声音方面存在竞争，而餐馆相信——也许是正确的——他们将在嘈杂的环境中脱颖而出。
Now, once again, I will avoid those restaurants.
现在，我将再次避开那些餐馆。
I’ll go to the quiet one, but I really think the same way there was an arms race in the 1960s, there’s a noise race in society right now.
我会讲安静的，但我真的认为就像 20 世纪 60 年代的军备竞赛一样，现在社会上也存在一场噪音竞赛。
On cool jazz
酷爵士乐
When and why did jazz stop being cool?
爵士乐何时以及为何不再流行？
Well, you know, cool stopped being cool.
嗯，你知道，酷不再是酷了。
I wrote this book called The Birth and Death of the Cool a few years ago.
几年前，我写了一本名为《酷的诞生与死亡》的书。
It was a shock to me because I was going to write a history of cool as this timeless thing.
这对我来说很震惊，因为我要写一部关于酷的历史作为永恒的事情。
People always want to be cool.
人们总是想保持冷静。
Then as I was doing the research, I realized that, in fact, the cool ethos was something that had a beginning and an end.
然后，当我进行研究时，我意识到，事实上，酷的风气是有开始和结束的。
In around the year 2000, cool became uncool.
2000年左右，“酷”变得不酷了。
Why did that happen?
为什么会发生这种事？
Why?
为什么？
I’ve got a larger theory — which is still very primitive — about these 50-year cycles between hot and cool in society.
关于社会上 50 年的冷热循环，我有一个更大的理论，但仍然非常原始。
I think we’re in the middle of a hot phase right now.
我认为我们现在正处于一个热门阶段。
It’s a culture of anger we live in.
我们生活在一种愤怒的文化中。
I don’t think anyone can deny that.
我认为没有人可以否认这一点。
But I do believe that you had this birth of the cool with Miles Davis recording that around the year 1950, and for the next 50 years we had a cool society in which cool jazz was at its peak.
但我确实相信，在 1950 年左右，迈尔斯·戴维斯 (Miles Davis) 录制了酷派的诞生，在接下来的 50 年里，我们拥有了一个酷派社会，酷派爵士乐在其中达到了顶峰。
There were certain cool techniques that you used in your day-to-day life, which were irony, humor.
你在日常生活中使用了一些很酷的技巧，比如讽刺、幽默。
You would deflect aggression with irony or with a joke.
你会用讽刺或笑话来转移攻击性。
Then around 2000 — and people will say 9/11 made this happen, but I think the roots were already before that — everything changed.
然后在 2000 年左右——人们会说 9/11 导致了这一切的发生，但我认为根源在此之前就已经存在了——一切都发生了变化。
People now pride themselves on their frankness.
人们现在为自己的坦率感到自豪。
“I’m going to say it just the way it is.
“我就照原样说吧。
I’m going to say it right to your face.” And so it goes, from cool to hot.
我要当着你的面说。”就这样，从冷到热。
Back to your earlier question, when did jazz stop being cool?
回到你之前的问题，爵士乐什么时候不再流行了？
Well, as cool itself phased out, jazz lost a lot of its audience, and jazz itself had to embrace more of a hot dynamic to thrive in the new setting.
好吧，随着酷乐本身的逐渐消失，爵士乐失去了很多观众，而爵士乐本身也必须拥抱更多的热动力才能在新的环境中蓬勃发展。
Can jazz today still sound hot in a musical world where basically all the rhythms have been tried out?
在几乎所有节奏都已被尝试过的音乐世界里，今天的爵士乐听起来还能火爆吗？
People have heard everything.
人们已经听到了一切。
If you play Varèse, “Ionisation,” for someone today, they might like it even.
如果你今天为某人演奏瓦雷兹的《电离》，他们甚至可能会喜欢它。
It doesn’t sound that weird, but they’re not deeply impressed.
这听起来并不奇怪，但他们并没有留下深刻的印象。
It doesn’t sound that radical.
听起来没那么激进。
They’ve heard rap.
他们听过说唱。
They’ve heard electronica.
他们听过电子乐。
Are the rhythms of jazz just boring in 2019?
2019年的爵士乐节奏是否乏味？
Well, I think there’s a larger question there that relates to that.
嗯，我认为有一个更大的问题与此相关。
As you may know, I’ve listened to lots of new music.
如你所知，我听了很多新音乐。
Over the course of a given year, I’ll listen to more than a thousand newly released recordings.
在一年中，我会听一千多张新发行的唱片。
And every year you put out a great list of what is best from what you listen to.
每年你都会列出一份很棒的清单，列出你所听到的最好的内容。
I’ll just tell everyone.
我就告诉大家吧。
That’s right, my 100 Best.
没错，我的 100 最佳。
It’s on your home page.
它在您的主页上。
I spend two to three hours per day listening to new music.
我每天花两到三个小时听新音乐。
One of the things I’ve observed is that the most creative music happening these days usually is at the intersections of different genres because the genres themselves have been overcome with the formula.
我观察到的一件事是，当今最有创意的音乐通常出现在不同流派的交叉点，因为流派本身已经被公式所克服。
As I said a little while ago, the formula is the curse.
正如我刚才所说，公式就是诅咒。
If you try to get on country radio, there’s a certain set sound you imitate, and it leads to this sameness.
如果你尝试收听乡村广播，你会模仿某种特定的声音，这会导致这种雷同。
But there’s amazing music being made in the intersection of the genres.
但在各种流派的交叉点上却创作出了令人惊叹的音乐。
For example, in jazz right now, there’s amazing music happening in Los Angeles and London, of musicians who are taking jazz music and contemporary music and dance beats and hip hop and R&B, even some other classical and folk ingredients.
例如，现在在爵士乐领域，洛杉矶和伦敦正在发生令人惊叹的音乐，音乐家们将爵士乐、当代音乐、舞蹈节拍、嘻哈和 R&B，甚至其他一些古典和民间元素融入其中。
They’re bringing it all together, and it does sound exciting, and it sounds new, and it doesn’t sound clichéd, but it’s only because they’re leaving the formula behind.
他们将所有这些结合在一起，这听起来确实令人兴奋，听起来很新，而且听起来并不陈词滥调，但这只是因为他们抛弃了公式。
Unfortunately, and this is the real mismatch in our society, the music industry rewards you for following the formula.
不幸的是，这是我们社会中真正的不匹配，音乐产业会奖励你遵循这个公式。
That’s how you get on radio.
这就是您收听广播的方式。
That’s how you get a record contract.
这就是你获得唱片合同的方式。
But in fact, the creative world rewards you for going into these intersections between the genres.
但事实上，创意世界会奖励你进入这些流派之间的交叉点。
Why are the blues disappearing from popular music?
为什么布鲁斯从流行音乐中消失？
That’s interesting.
那很有意思。
I think we’re reversing this whole amazing process that happened during the 20th century.
我认为我们正在扭转 20 世纪发生的整个令人惊奇的过程。
I like to think of the African influence as reversing what I call the Pythagorean Paradigm, which emerged 2,500 years ago, where Pythagoras developed the first scales in Western music.
我喜欢将非洲的影响视为对我所说的毕达哥拉斯范式的逆转，毕达哥拉斯范式出现于 2500 年前，毕达哥拉斯在其中开发了西方音乐中的第一个音阶。
But even more important, he developed this mathematical notion of music that every note came in a scale, every scale was tuned, and you always played in tune.
但更重要的是，他发展了音乐的数学概念，即每个音符都有一个音阶，每个音阶都经过调音，并且你总是演奏得合拍。
We accept this so instinctively that we don’t even think twice.
我们本能地接受了这一点，甚至不假思索。
When you go to the orchestra, the first thing they do is tune up.
当你去管弦乐队时，他们做的第一件事就是调音。
Well, in the 20th century with this infusion from blues and jazz, you could play notes that were no longer in tune.
好吧，在 20 世纪，随着布鲁斯和爵士乐的注入，你可以演奏不再合调的音符。
You could bend the note.
你可以弯曲这张纸条。
You could distort the sound, and this was an amazing reversal of 2,500 years of mathematical Pythagorean music.
你可以扭曲声音，这是对 2500 年来数学毕达哥拉斯音乐的惊人逆转。
But early classical music did that plenty, right?
但早期的古典音乐已经做到了很多，对吧？
Was the Pythagorean tradition ever so dominant?
毕达哥拉斯传统曾经如此占主导地位吗？
If you go back — and of course it’s hard to speculate on what music sounded like 2,000 years ago — but if you read the books, they are obsessed with tuning and scales.
如果你回去——当然很难推测 2000 年前的音乐听起来是什么样的——但如果你读过这些书，你会发现他们对调音和音阶很着迷。
The music guides from ancient times are obsessed with tuning systems, and they tried to squeeze out sounds that didn’t fit into the scale.
古代的音乐指南痴迷于调音系统，他们试图挤出不符合音阶的声音。
So you had a reversal in the 20th century with the advent of black music, but now that’s dying out in many ways.
随着黑人音乐的出现，20 世纪发生了逆转，但现在这种情况在很多方面都在消亡。
Just auto-tune — the idea is every note’s going to be perfectly in tune.
只需自动调音——这个想法是每个音符都将完美调音。
Or a lot of this digital music — everything is perfectly in tune, and the bent blues notes are disappearing.
或者很多这样的数字音乐——一切都完美协调，弯曲的布鲁斯音符正在消失。
But isn’t it that distortion and note bending have been picked up by, say, indie music, and they’re being done in more commercially appealing ways than the blues, and maybe the blues is a bit exhausted?
但失真和音符弯曲难道不是已经被独立音乐所采用，而且它们的制作方式比布鲁斯更具商业吸引力，也许布鲁斯有点疲惫了？
I think for a while it was being assimilated in popular music, but I believe that has stopped in the last five, ten years.
我认为有一段时间它被流行音乐同化了，但我相信这种情况在过去的五、十年里已经停止了。
I would love to see some PhD student study hit records of different decades and figure out how frequently notes deviate from pitch, and how that’s changed over time.
我很乐意看到一些博士生的研究创下了不同几十年的记录，并弄清楚音符偏离音高的频率以及随着时间的推移如何变化。
I think you would find an amazing reduction in that.
我想你会发现这个数字有惊人的减少。
So we’re going back to this mathematical vision of music as everything is perfectly in tune and perfectly organized and perfectly aligned rhythmically.
所以我们要回到音乐的数学视野，因为一切都完美地协调、完美地组织、完美地节奏对齐。
There’s less syncopation in music.
音乐中的切分音较少。
Everything is becoming regularized.
一切都在变得正规化。
Now probably, the advent of digital technologies leads to it, but I think we need a new African infusion in our music that shakes things up and gets us away from mathematics and back toward sound.
现在可能是数字技术的出现导致了这一点，但我认为我们需要在我们的音乐中注入新的非洲元素，以撼动一切，让我们远离数学，回到声音。
And rap music is not that new infusion for you?
说唱音乐对你来说不是新的注入吗？
Yes or no?
是还是不是？
Well, rap music is also becoming formulaic.
嗯，说唱音乐也变得公式化。
Rap — it’s interesting — 30 years ago, NWA did an album that was so dangerous, the FBI tried to shut down the record label.
说唱——这很有趣——30 年前，NWA 制作了一张非常危险的专辑，FBI 试图关闭该唱片公司。
Nowadays, that same album has been enshrined as a national historical treasure by the Library of Congress.
如今，同一张专辑已被美国国会图书馆列为国家历史珍宝。
The Smithsonian last year announced they’re putting together a panel of 50 academics and scholars to come up with the official Smithsonian guide to hip hop.
史密森学会去年宣布，他们将组建一个由 50 名学者和学者组成的小组来制定史密森学会官方嘻哈指南。
So rap and hip hop is also becoming streamlined and mainstreamed.
因此说唱和嘻哈也正在变得精简和主流。
Also, you see — and this has been going on for a number of years — rappers, to have really big sales, team up with a pop star.
另外，你看，这种情况已经持续了很多年了，说唱歌手为了获得真正的大销量，会与流行歌星合作。
So you have that melody, which is often very auto-tuned, and once again, very much this Pythagorean mathematical approach.
所以你就有了那种旋律，它通常是非常自动调整的，并且再次非常符合毕达哥拉斯数学方法。
There’s people trying to tame hip hop, so it’s hard to understand where the disruption’s going to come from.
有人试图驯服嘻哈音乐，所以很难理解这种破坏从何而来。
I tend to think there will be a big disruption in music over the next few years, but it won’t be a repetition of jazz or hip hop or something from the past.
我倾向于认为未来几年音乐领域将会发生巨大的变革，但这不会是爵士乐、嘻哈音乐或过去的音乐的重复。
There’ll be something new coming at us, which will surprise us.
将会有一些新的东西向我们袭来，这会让我们感到惊讶。
Are prosperity, peacetime, and racial integration bad for the blues?
繁荣、和平时期和种族融合对蓝调有害吗？
Well, that’s a big question.
嗯，这是一个大问题。
I think that you look at the blues, and it’s definitely a music of anguish and tragedy and personal suffering.
我认为你看看布鲁斯，它绝对是一种痛苦、悲剧和个人痛苦的音乐。
But from a completely different point of view, the blues did other things as well.
但从完全不同的角度来看，布鲁斯也做了其他事情。
It broadened our musical techniques, and also, it was a music of lifestyle values.
它拓宽了我们的音乐技巧，而且，它是一种生活方式价值观的音乐。
I tend to think that the blues anticipated the sexual revolution of the 1960s.
我倾向于认为蓝调预示了 20 世纪 60 年代的性革命。
All the things that were sung about in blues music in the 1920s were about these lifestyle excesses that didn’t reach mainstream society for 40, 50 years.
1920 年代蓝调音乐中所唱的所有内容都是关于这些在 40、50 年内才进入主流社会的过度生活方式。
But we had them in the ’20s too, right?
但我们在 20 世纪 20 年代也有过它们，对吗？
The ’30s are sexually more conservative than the ’20s had been, it seems.
30 多岁的人在性方面似乎比 20 多岁的人更加保守。
Well there was, but in fact, it’s very interesting to go back and see this.
嗯，确实有，但事实上，回去看看这个很有趣。
For the first 10, 20 years of the 20th century, if you wanted to sing about sex in a song, you would put a picture of black people on the cover of the sheet music, and the idea was that it was acceptable.
在20世纪的前10年、20年里，如果你想在一首歌中唱关于性的歌，你会在乐谱封面上放一张黑人的照片，人们的想法是这是可以接受的。
You know “Won’t You Come Home, Bill Bailey?” It’s a song about an adulterous affair.
你知道“比尔·贝利，你不回家吗？”这是一首关于通奸的歌曲。
You could sing that song, you could publish that song, but you had to associate it with black lifestyles, and there were a bunch of other songs as well.
你可以唱那首歌，你可以出版那首歌，但你必须将它与黑人的生活方式联系起来，还有很多其他歌曲。
Whenever you sang about something that was sexy or dirty, you put black people on the cover of the sheet music.
每当你唱一些性感或肮脏的东西时，你就会把黑人放在乐谱的封面上。
This is how it entered the music industry.
这就是它进入音乐界的方式。
You’re right, there were certain behavior patterns there that were everywhere, but where it really went mainstream and came out and was considered acceptable, it’s acceptable in many people’s eyes to have free love or altered mind states.
你是对的，到处都有某些行为模式，但当它真正成为主流并出现并被认为可以接受时，在许多人看来，自由恋爱或改变心态是可以接受的。
That was the 1960s, and that came out of blues music first, when it first was sung about on the airwaves.
那是 20 世纪 60 年代，布鲁斯音乐首先出现，当时它第一次在广播中被传唱。
How and why was John Hammond such an amazing spotter of musical talent?
约翰·哈蒙德如何以及为何成为如此令人惊叹的音乐天才发现者？
Well, those people have disappeared.
嗯，那些人已经消失了。
Those people have disappeared.
那些人已经消失了。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I really don’t know, but I do think there was this notion of having a talent scout who knew a lot about music, had been around for many years, really understood the ups and downs, often was a musician, too.
我真的不知道，但我确实认为有这样一种观念，即拥有一个对音乐了解很多、已经存在多年、真正了解酸甜苦辣的星探，而且通常也是一名音乐家。
And someone like Hammond then could discover Billie Holiday or Aretha Franklin or Bob Dylan.
像哈蒙德这样的人可能会发现比莉·哈乐黛、艾瑞莎·富兰克林或鲍勃·迪伦。
Bruce Springsteen he discovered.
他发现了布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀。
Count Basie, many others.
贝西伯爵以及其他许多人。
Count Basie — you could go on for a long time — out of his cumulative experience.
贝西伯爵——你可以继续说很长一段时间——根据他积累的经验。
In the 1960s, though, the record industry decided that the best way to scout new talent was to rely on young people.
然而在 20 世纪 60 年代，唱片业认为发掘新人的最佳方式是依靠年轻人。
This is sad but true.
这很悲伤，但却是事实。
They believed that the path to success was to match their music to the musical taste of a 16-year-old.
他们相信成功之路就是让他们的音乐符合 16 岁孩子的音乐品味。
Because of that, they needed young people that understood that vibe.
正因为如此，他们需要了解这种氛围的年轻人。
For a while, that worked really well.
有一段时间，这确实很有效。
But what you sacrificed over the long run was having people like John Hammond, who had seen music change up and down, in and out, over a period of decades, and brought that larger vision.
但从长远来看，你牺牲的是拥有像约翰·哈蒙德这样的人，他们见证了音乐在数十年的时间里起起落落、进进出出，并带来了更大的愿景。
I think it’s a larger thing of how do record labels spot talent then?
我认为更重要的是唱片公司如何发现人才？
How do they spot it now?
他们现在如何发现它？
What they’re doing now doesn’t seem to be working.
他们现在所做的事情似乎不起作用。
They’re having enormous trouble building careers of younger musicians.
他们在年轻音乐家的职业发展方面遇到了巨大的困难。
Even if the first album does well, there’s this sophomore curse.
即使第一张专辑表现不错，第二张专辑也有这个诅咒。
And I do think that it would be good if they took more time understanding the process of discovery because discovering talent for a record label is as important as R&D for a tech company.
我确实认为，如果他们花更多时间了解发现的过程，那就太好了，因为为唱片公司发现人才与科技公司的研发一样重要。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Let’s try a round of overrated versus underrated.
让我们尝试一轮高估与低估。
Let’s go.
我们走吧。
Heavy metal music — overrated or underrated?
重金属音乐——被高估还是被低估？
I think it’s underrated.
我认为它被低估了。
If you say that you like metal music, that’s supposedly shameful, or maybe you’ve got some dark, satanic impulses.
如果你说你喜欢金属音乐，那可能是可耻的，或者你可能有一些黑暗、邪恶的冲动。
But metal music has persisted at very high levels of virtuosity, and they take musicianship seriously.
但金属音乐一直保持着极高的精湛技艺，而且他们非常重视音乐才能。
They take the entertainment aspect of it seriously.
他们认真对待其中的娱乐方面。
Sometimes it’s almost performance art.
有时它几乎是行为艺术。
I’m not personally a huge fan of metal music, but I think in terms of the whole music ecosystem, it’s tremendously underrated.
我个人并不是金属音乐的忠实粉丝，但我认为就整个音乐生态系统而言，它被极大地低估了。
Leo Tolstoy.
列夫·托尔斯泰。
I think Dostoevsky was better.
我觉得陀思妥耶夫斯基更好。
I know that’s controversial.
我知道这是有争议的。
Okay, let me clarify this.
好吧，让我澄清一下。
I think Tolstoy is overrated as a novelist, but he’s underrated as a social figure because he influenced people that joined these communes.
我认为托尔斯泰作为小说家被高估了，但作为社会人物却被低估了，因为他影响了加入这些公社的人们。
There’s still Tolstoyan communes out there in Britain.
英国仍然有托尔斯泰式的公社。
Many people adopted vegetarianism because of Tolstoy.
许多人因为托尔斯泰而接受素食主义。
People changed how they viewed marriage.
人们改变了对婚姻的看法。
The impact he had on the broader society has been hidden from view.
他对更广泛社会的影响一直被忽视。
The Soviet Union tried to change Tolstoy’s image because he was so dangerous.
苏联试图改变托尔斯泰的形象，因为他太危险了。
They reframed him as just a novelist.
他们把他重新定义为一个小说家。
A nationalist to some extent.
某种程度上是民族主义者。
Very much so, but I would think that if you view Tolstoy just as a novelist, you don’t understand the full scope of his influence.
确实如此，但我认为，如果你只将托尔斯泰视为一位小说家，你就无法理解他的影响的全部范围。
Horror fiction — overrated or underrated?
恐怖小说——被高估还是被低估？
I believe all genre fiction deserves more credit from serious literary figures.
我相信所有类型小说都应该得到严肃文学人物的更多赞誉。
There’s a tremendous amount of creativity.
有巨大的创造力。
Stephen King’s one of the best writers out there.
斯蒂芬·金是最好的作家之一。
Those novels are beautifully crafted, and in terms even of things like character development, plot structure.
这些小说制作精美，甚至在人物发展、情节结构等方面也是如此。
No, horror fiction’s underrated.
不，恐怖小说被低估了。
Elton John.
艾尔顿约翰。
Elton John in the 1970s, underrated.
20 世纪 70 年代的埃尔顿·约翰 (Elton John) 被低估了。
Elton John after the 1970s, overrated.
20 世纪 70 年代后的埃尔顿·约翰 (Elton John) 被高估了。
His early material is amazing, is amazing.
他早期的材料令人惊叹，令人惊叹。
Just the number of good songs, including ones that were never hits, and his singing — his singing’s extraordinary.
只是好歌的数量，包括那些从未流行过的歌曲，还有他的歌声——他的歌声非常出色。
His singing is still good, don’t get me wrong.
他的歌还是很好听的，别误会。
But the way Elton sang in the 1970s, very underrated.
但埃尔顿在 20 世纪 70 年代的演唱方式却被严重低估了。
R.E.M.
快速眼动
— overrated or underrated?
——被高估还是被低估？
Overrated.
被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
Once again, it feels too much like a formula for me.
再一次，这对我来说太像一个公式了。
But say, the first two or three albums — wasn’t it something new?
但是，前两三张专辑——难道不是新东西吗？
I’m going pass on that.
我将继续这一点。
Murmur, “Letter Never Sent.”
低语，“信从未寄出。”
Like I said, to me, it sounds formulaic.
就像我说的，对我来说，这听起来很公式化。
But once again, I’d have to go back and listen again to give you a more authoritative view on that.
但我还是得回去再听一遍，才能给你一个更权威的看法。
Stan Kenton.
斯坦·肯顿.
Terrible person in his private life.
私生活里是个很糟糕的人。
What did he do?
他做了什么？
I think he sexually abused his daughter.
我认为他性虐待了他的女儿。
Oh, I didn’t know that.
哦，我不知道。
I don’t have all the details at hand, and those kind of aspects I don’t like to probe into, but there’s this whole issue of how do we deal with Michael Jackson?
我手头没有所有的细节，以及我不想探究的那些方面，但整个问题是我们如何处理迈克尔·杰克逊？
How do you deal with Roman Polanski?
你如何对待罗曼·波兰斯基？
My general belief is that, most of the time, you’ve got to separate artistry from personal life — most of the time.
我的普遍信念是，大多数时候，你必须将艺术与个人生活分开——大多数时候。
But I do believe that there’s a certain crossing point.
但我确实相信存在一个特定的交叉点。
Like Hitler and painting, for example.
例如希特勒和绘画。
You don’t put a painting exhibit of Hitler on, regardless of what the quality is.
无论质量如何，你都不会举办希特勒的绘画展览。
But it was also bad.
但这也很糟糕。
In that sense it’s overdetermined, right?
从这个意义上说，它是过度决定的，对吗？
But the whole question is, should Michael Jackson’s music be put off the air?
但整个问题是，迈克尔·杰克逊的音乐是否应该停止播出？
My general belief is Kenton was a great innovator in jazz, but I believe that does not .
我普遍认为肯顿是爵士乐领域的伟大创新者，但我相信事实并非如此。
.
。
.
。
And I want to be very clear about this because I feel this very strongly.
我想非常清楚地说明这一点，因为我对此有非常强烈的感受。
Your artistic skill, your intellectual ability, your talents do not give you permission to violate rules of human decency in your private life.
你的艺术技巧、你的智力、你的才能不允许你在私人生活中违反人类尊严的规则。
That said, you do evaluate the artistry, for the most part, on different terms.
也就是说，在很大程度上，你确实会从不同的角度来评估艺术性。
But I don’t like it — all these artists that think that they can exploit people just because they’re famous.
但我不喜欢它——所有这些艺术家都认为他们可以仅仅因为出名就剥削别人。
K-pop — is any of it interesting?
韩国流行音乐——有什么有趣的吗？
I have yet to hear the K-pop album that excites me.
我还没有听到让我兴奋的韩国流行专辑。
But I do believe, in principle, the idea that we’re getting musical innovations from outside the English-speaking world that are going global is a good thing.
但我确实相信，原则上，我们从英语世界之外获得音乐创新并走向全球是一件好事。
Personally, K-pop’s not my cup of tea, but I love this idea that someone can upload something on the internet today in Indonesia, and I can hear it at home tomorrow.
就我个人而言，韩国流行音乐不是我的菜，但我喜欢这样的想法：今天有人可以在印度尼西亚的互联网上上传一些东西，明天我就可以在家里听到它。
Who is the great underrated 20th-century classical music composer?
谁是20世纪被低估的伟大古典音乐作曲家？
My favorite is Shostakovich, who, to me, is at the peak for a variety of reasons, both in terms of just the sheer artistry of the works and also his ability in his personal life to take oppression and tragedy and not only overcome it, but use it as an impetus to get even to a higher level on his creative platform.
我最喜欢的是肖斯塔科维奇，对我来说，他由于各种原因而处于巅峰，无论是在作品的纯粹艺术性方面，还是在他个人生活中承受压迫和悲剧的能力方面，不仅克服了它们，而且将其作为在他的创作平台上达到更高水平的动力。
Where should the neophyte start with Shostakovich?
肖斯塔科维奇的新手应该从哪里开始？
I love the symphonies and the string quartets, but those preludes and fugues — oh, that’s maybe my favorite classical piano work of the 20th century.
我喜欢交响乐和弦乐四重奏，但那些前奏曲和赋格曲——哦，那可能是我最喜欢的 20 世纪古典钢琴作品。
Which recording?
哪个录音？
The Jarrett one is probably the place to start, surprisingly enough.
令人惊讶的是，Jarrett 可能是一个起点。
I would say Keith Jarret, yeah.
我想说基思·贾勒特，是的。
John or Paul — who was better?
约翰和保罗——谁更好？
I am more of a Paul fan because he had the better musical craft.
我更喜欢保罗，因为他有更好的音乐技巧。
But he needed John because John had the edginess.
但他需要约翰，因为约翰性格急躁。
This is my view: if it was just Paul without John, it would have become sentimental, and you wouldn’t want to listen to it.
我的看法是：如果只有保罗，没有约翰，那就太感伤了，你就不会想听了。
If it was just John without Paul, it would have become incomprehensible.
如果只有约翰而没有保罗，那就难以理解了。
You needed both.
你两者都需要。
But if I had to pick one, I’d go for Paul because with my background as a musician, Paul mastered the craft more.
但如果我必须选择一个，我会选择保罗，因为凭借我作为音乐家的背景，保罗更掌握这门手艺。
What is it that you sing in the shower?
你洗澡时唱的是什么歌？
Unfortunately, it’s the same thing everybody else sings, which is probably some lousy commercial jingle or some pop tune I heard the previous day.
不幸的是，这和其他人唱的都是一样的，这可能是一些糟糕的商业歌曲或我前一天听到的一些流行歌曲。
I’d love to tell you that I work through opera arias or I do the Wagnerian repertoire, but no. It’s probably the Juicy Fruit jingle or the Beverly Hills theme song.
我很想告诉你我是通过歌剧咏叹调或瓦格纳剧目来创作的，但事实并非如此。这可能是多汁水果广告歌或比佛利山庄主题曲。
Is Prince actually an interesting musician?
Prince实际上是一位有趣的音乐家吗？
Yes.
是的。
So much quantity, but what is there in Prince when you go back to it, it sounds better?
这么多数量，但是Prince里面有什么你回过头来听上去更好听呢？
I like the stuff right before he died.
我喜欢他死前的东西。
He was going to go back to just piano and voice.
他打算回到钢琴和声乐。
It was jazzier.
更爵士乐了。
It was more downscaled, and a little of that was recorded, but I would have loved to have seen where Prince would have gone if he had lived another 10 years.
它的规模更小，并且记录了其中的一些内容，但我很想知道如果普林斯再活十年，他会去哪里。
Do you think music today is helping the sexual revolution or hurting it?
你认为今天的音乐是在帮助还是在伤害性革命？
Speaking of Prince.
说到太子。
It’s very interesting.
这很有趣。
If you go back to the earliest songs in human history, they were linked to fertility rituals.
如果你回顾人类历史上最早的歌曲，你会发现它们与生育仪式有关。
There was an idea that the king would have sex with a goddess, which, usually, the high priestess had to step in because it was hard to find a real goddess, and there were songs associated with it.
有一种想法是国王会与女神发生性关系，通常，高级女祭司必须介入，因为很难找到真正的女神，并且有与之相关的歌曲。
They were very explicit.
他们非常明确。
Some of them I couldn’t even say to you, Tyler, because I would get into trouble because of the explicit quality of the works.
其中一些我什至不能告诉你，泰勒，因为我会因为作品的明确质量而陷入麻烦。
The point I would make is, songs these days are very similar.
我想说的一点是，现在的歌曲非常相似。
Someone studied recent hit songs, and 92 percent of them refer to sexuality.
有人研究了最近的热门歌曲，其中 92% 都与性有关。
The typical hit song has 10½ reproductive phrases.
典型的热门歌曲有 10½ 个重复短语。
That’s the word the researcher used — not just the dirty parts, the reproductive phrases in the songs.
这是研究人员使用的词——不仅仅是肮脏的部分，还有歌曲中的生殖短语。
I do think there is — and this I bring up in my new book — the long-standing connection between music and sexuality.
我确实认为——我在我的新书中提到了这一点——音乐和性之间存在着长期的联系。
Even as we see a new Victorianism and sexual primness entering our larger mainstream culture, there’s a tremendous force that forces popular music to address sexual issues.
即使我们看到新的维多利亚主义和性拘谨进入我们更大的主流文化，仍然有一股巨大的力量迫使流行音乐解决性问题。
But is music in some way antisex or a substitute for sex?
但音乐在某种程度上是反性的还是性的替代品？
Or maybe some kinds of romantic music, like Bruce Springsteen — they’re best for people who are not in love?
或者也许某些浪漫音乐，比如布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀——它们最适合那些没有恋爱的人？
And if you’re actually in love, you don’t need Bruce Springsteen.
如果你真的恋爱了，你就不需要布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀。
And now we’re doused in music and the internet, and we have less sex.
现在我们沉迷于音乐和互联网，性生活也减少了。
Well, I believe, actually, Darwin was right.
嗯，我相信，事实上，达尔文是对的。
He thought music was linked to sexual selection, and we use music to attract a mate.
他认为音乐与性选择有关，而我们用音乐来吸引配偶。
When you created it, right?
当你创建它的时候，对吗？
No —
不——
But now we’re in a world where you don’t have to create it.
但现在我们处于一个不需要你去创造它的世界。
It’s very interesting.
这很有趣。
There’s market research and focus groups about how people use music in their day-to-day life.
有关于人们如何在日常生活中使用音乐的市场研究和焦点小组。
Take, for example, this: you’re going to bring a date back to your apartment for a romantic dinner.
举个例子：你要带一个约会对象回到你的公寓吃一顿浪漫的晚餐。
So what do you worry about?
那么你担心什么呢？
Well, the first thing I have to worry about is, my place is a mess.
嗯，我首先要担心的是，我的住所很乱。
I’ve got to clean it up.
我得把它清理干净。
That’s number one.
这是第一。
The second thing you worry about is, what food am I going to fix?
你担心的第二件事是，我要准备什么食物？
But number three on people’s list — when you interview them — is the music because they understand the music is going to seal the deal.
但当你采访他们时，人们名单上的第三位是音乐，因为他们知道音乐将达成交易。
If there’s going to be something really romantic, that music is essential.
如果有什么真正浪漫的事情，那么音乐是必不可少的。
People will agonize for hours over which music to play.
人们会为了播放哪些音乐而苦苦思索几个小时。
I think that we miss this.
我认为我们错过了这一点。
People view music as distance from people’s everyday life.
人们将音乐视为与日常生活的距离。
But in fact, people put music to work every day, and one of the premier ways they do it is in romance.
但事实上，人们每天都将音乐融入工作中，而他们最主要的方式之一就是浪漫。
Let’s say you were not married, and you’re 27 years old, and you’re having a date over.
假设您尚未结婚，今年 27 岁，正在约会。
What music do you put on in 2019 under those conditions?
在这种情况下，2019 年你会播放哪些音乐？
It’s got to always be Sinatra.
一定是西纳特拉。
Because that is sexier?
因为这样更性感？
It’s generally appealing?
一般都有吸引力吗？
It’s not going to offend anyone?
这不会得罪任何人吗？
Why?
为什么？
I must say up front, I am no expert on seduction, so you’re now getting me out of my main level of expertise.
我必须先说，我不是诱惑方面的专家，所以你现在让我脱离了我的主要专业水平。
But I would think that if you were a seducer, you would want something that was romantic on the surface but very sexualized right below that, and no one was better at these multilayered interpretations of lyrics than Frank Sinatra.
但我认为，如果你是一个诱惑者，你会想要一些表面上浪漫但内心非常性感的东西，没有人比弗兰克·辛纳屈（Frank Sinatra）更擅长对歌词的多层次解释。
I always call them the Derrida of pop singing because there was always the surface level and various levels that you could deconstruct.
我总是称他们为流行歌唱界的德里达，因为总有你可以解构的表面层次和各种层次。
And if you are planning for that romantic date, hey, go for Frank.
如果你正在计划那个浪漫的约会，嘿，去找弗兰克吧。
What was music like in ancient Greece?
古希腊的音乐是什么样的？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
Well, I do believe that there were different types of music.
嗯，我确实相信有不同类型的音乐。
There was this officially sanctioned music that was preserved, but there was a more exciting music from outsiders that people liked but also feared.
有这种官方认可的音乐被保留下来，但还有一种来自外来的更令人兴奋的音乐，人们喜欢但也害怕。
Here’s an interesting thing.
这是一件有趣的事情。
If you’re a music student nowadays, one of the first things you learn are the musical modes.
如果你现在是一名音乐学生，你首先要学习的事情之一就是音乐模式。
These are essentially the building-block scales of music.
这些本质上是音乐的构建块音阶。
And they have names.
他们有名字。
There’s the Phrygian mode, there’s the Lydian mode.
有弗里吉亚模式，有吕底亚模式。
But what no one tells you is the Phrygians and the Lydians were the enslaved populations in Greece, and they have these exciting sounds.
但没有人告诉你，弗里吉亚人和吕底亚人是希腊的奴隶，他们有这些令人兴奋的声音。
Those were the dangerous modes.
这些都是危险的模式。
So the exciting sounds were associated with these enslaved people and outsiders.
于是这些令人兴奋的声音就与这些被奴役的人和外来者联系在一起了。
Unfortunately, the musical culture that’s preserved is the kind that supported the ruling class.
不幸的是，保存下来的音乐文化是支持统治阶级的。
For example, the most popular lyric poet in ancient Greece was Pindar, who sang the praises of heroic men and powerful people.
例如，古希腊最受欢迎的抒情诗人是品达，他歌颂英雄人物和有权势的人。
This is the establishment music, but there was another kind of music that was darker, deeper, and more emotionally intense.
这是主流音乐，但还有另一种更黑暗、更深沉、情感更强烈的音乐。
What are three parts of the world where their musics are currently seriously underrated?
目前世界上哪三个地区的音乐被严重低估？
Well, I tend to think that the places to look are the countries that have large population bases, diversity, but don’t get heard often on the radio or don’t get picked up much by record labels.
嗯，我倾向于认为，值得关注的地方是那些人口基数大、多元化，但不经常在广播中听到或不被唱片公司收录的国家。
Let’s take, for example, Brazil and Indonesia.
我们以巴西和印度尼西亚为例。
It’s very interesting.
这很有趣。
There’s a jazz piano player named Joey Alexander.
有一位爵士钢琴演奏家，名叫乔伊·亚历山大。
He’s a kid.
他是个孩子。
He was a child prodigy.
他是一个神童。
He got a record contract around age 14.
他在14岁左右就获得了创纪录的合同。
He’s from Indonesia, but he had to move out to New York.
他来自印度尼西亚，但他不得不搬到纽约。
He’s now winning awards and showing up on the Grammys.
他现在正在获奖并出现在格莱美颁奖典礼上。
When his jazz album came out, somebody told me this was the first time in history an album by an Indonesian music hit made the billboard chart.
当他的爵士乐专辑发行时，有人告诉我这是历史上第一次印度尼西亚热门音乐专辑登上广告牌排行榜。
That’s amazing.
太棒了。
Indonesia has a huge population and a great musical culture, a very diverse one, too.
印度尼西亚拥有庞大的人口和伟大的音乐文化，而且文化也非常多样化。
I try to listen to music from all over the world, so I’m always trying to figure out what is happening in Asia.
我尝试聆听来自世界各地的音乐，所以我总是试图了解亚洲正在发生什么。
Just two days ago, I did a search on Bandcamp for any recording in the last month from Jakarta.
就在两天前，我在 Bandcamp 上搜索了雅加达上个月的录音。
I’m trying to find these things.
我正在努力寻找这些东西。
So I would look at those large countries with diverse populations that have been left out of the music industry’s radar screen.
因此，我会关注那些被排除在音乐产业雷达屏幕之外的人口多元化的大国。
Why is the music of the pygmies so good?
为什么俾格米人的音乐那么好听？
Well, listen to how they sing!
那就来听听他们唱得如何吧！
There’s a view in the public mind that if you listen to traditional African music, it’s just intense rhythms.
公众有一种观点，如果你听传统的非洲音乐，那只是强烈的节奏。
But that’s not true at all.
但事实并非如此。
And the pygmy music — a lot of this is this vocal polyphony.
还有俾格米音乐——其中很多都是声乐复调音乐。
They sing stuff, and I swear, you could not write it down.
他们唱的东西，我发誓，你无法写下来。
If you’re a trained musician, you have a good ear, you can listen to this over and over again, and you can listen to it the 20th time and you’re still saying, “What’s going on here?
如果你是一位训练有素的音乐家，你有一双灵敏的耳朵，你可以一遍又一遍地听这个，你可以听 20 遍，你仍然会说：“这里发生了什么事？
How are they doing that?” That’s one of these great musical experiences where people can go through their whole life and not hear it, but they really should track it down.
他们是怎么做到的？这是一种伟大的音乐体验，人们可能一辈子都听不到它，但他们真的应该追寻它。
What’s the solution to contemporary classical music being too academic?
当代古典音乐过于学术化的解决办法是什么？
Or would you not accept that premise?
或者你不接受这个前提？
Contemporary classical music now is great.
现在的当代古典音乐很棒。
There’s a lot of exciting things happening, and classical composers are mixing up classical music with rock and jazz and folk styles.
发生了很多令人兴奋的事情，古典作曲家将古典音乐与摇滚乐、爵士乐和民间风格混合在一起。
There’s all sorts of interesting things happening.
发生了各种各样有趣的事情。
But the problem is, they created a public image over the course of 50 years that classical music was just noise and difficult to listen to.
但问题是，他们在50年的时间里给公众营造了一种古典音乐只是噪音、难以聆听的形象。
So they’ve got to overcome their own reputation.
所以他们必须克服自己的声誉。
But if you sit down and listen to contemporary classical music seriously over the course of several months, people would be amazed at how much they enjoy it.
但如果你坐下来认真聆听当代古典音乐几个月的时间，人们会惊讶地发现他们有多么喜欢它。
After Philip Glass, what is it from contemporary classical music that will last?
在菲利普·格拉斯之后，当代古典音乐中有什么能够永垂不朽？
Well, this is interesting because, like I say, you could listen to Jennifer Higdon or David Lang.
嗯，这很有趣，因为就像我说的，你可以听詹妮弗·希格登或大卫·朗的歌。
There are a bunch of great composers out there.
那里有很多伟大的作曲家。
Caroline Shaw — wow, just amazing stuff.
卡罗琳·肖——哇，真是太棒了。
I don’t know if it’s found an audience yet.
不知道现在有没有找到观众。
It deserves to find an audience.
它值得找到观众。
It deserves to last.
它值得持久。
But the question is going to be more a socioeconomic one.
但问题将更多地是一个社会经济问题。
Will these great composers that are around us now get the platform they need to reach people?
我们周围的这些伟大作曲家现在能否获得接触人们所需的平台？
What percent of the people who go to the opera actually enjoy it?
去看歌剧的人中有多少人真正喜欢它？
It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
I came to opera late, and when I did, I actually had to force myself to listen to opera.
我接触歌剧很晚，当我接触到歌剧时，我实际上不得不强迫自己听歌剧。
At a certain point, I realized this was a gap in my musical education.
在某个时刻，我意识到这是我音乐教育中的一个差距。
There was a period, day after day, I would just listen to the opera, and I would study it to fill that gap.
有一段时间，日复一日，我只是听戏，我会研究它来填补这个空白。
But I’ve met many people that are passionate about it.
但我遇到了很多对此充满热情的人。
My older brother, Dana.
我的哥哥，达纳。
He writes operas.
他写歌剧。
This is interesting.
这很有趣。
I was named after my uncle Ted, who died before I was born.
我是以我叔叔特德的名字命名的，他在我出生之前就去世了。
He was a merchant marine, never went to college, died in a plane crash.
他是一名商船队员，从未上过大学，死于飞机失事。
And my mother says that Uncle Ted was the smart one in the family and that supposedly he had all Dante’s Divine Comedy memorized in Italian.
我母亲说泰德叔叔是家里最聪明的人，据说他已经用意大利语背下了所有但丁的《神曲》。
You could just open up the book at any line and say it and he could quote from it.
你可以打开书里的任何一行并说出它，他就可以引用它。
He corresponded with a great Mozart scholar, Alfred Einstein, on Mozart because my uncle was an expert on Mozart.
他与一位伟大的莫扎特学者阿尔弗雷德·爱因斯坦就莫扎特问题进行了通信，因为我叔叔是莫扎特方面的专家。
He was just a sailor.
他只是一名水手。
Never went to college.
从未上过大学。
When they came out with an album by Haydn’s brother of music, they had to get my uncle to write the liner notes.
当他们推出海顿音乐兄弟的专辑时，他们不得不让我叔叔写歌词。
You mean Michael Haydn.
你说的是迈克尔·海顿。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
At that time, the only biographies were written in German, so they had to go to my uncle, the sailor, to help them with the liner notes.
当时，唯一的传记是用德语写的，所以他们不得不去找我的水手叔叔，帮助他们做班轮笔记。
Anyway, the story I’m told is that when he was 11 years old or 12 years old, he snuck out of home one night where he hid clothes in his bed and then snuck out the window, took the streetcar into downtown LA to see the opera.
不管怎样，我听说的故事是，当他11岁或12岁的时候，一天晚上他偷偷溜出家门，把衣服藏在床上，然后偷偷溜出窗户，乘坐有轨电车去洛杉矶市中心看歌剧。
Twelve years old!
十二岁了！
So that’s passion.
这就是激情。
Yeah, there are people out there that are absolutely passionate about opera.
是的，有人对歌剧充满热情。
They will live and die for it, God bless them.
他们将为此而生，为之而死，上帝保佑他们。
But you don’t sell season tickets just on the basis of those people.
但你不能仅仅根据这些人来销售季票。
There are a lot of folks that are just going there to get their cultural street cred.
有很多人去那里只是为了获得他们的文化街头信誉。
There are people out there that are absolutely passionate about opera.
有些人对歌剧充满热情。
They will live and die for it, God bless them.
他们将为此而生，为之而死，上帝保佑他们。
But you don’t sell season tickets just on the basis of those people.
但你不能仅仅根据这些人来销售季票。
There are a lot of folks that are just going there to get their cultural street cred.
有很多人去那里只是为了获得他们的文化街头信誉。
You mentioned your brother, Dana, who’s been a well-known poet, CEO.
你提到了你的兄弟达纳，他是一位著名的诗人、首席执行官。
He ran National Endowment for the Arts.
他管理着国家艺术基金会。
Where do you and he most disagree about music?
你和他在音乐方面最不同意的地方在哪里？
Well, like I say, he —
好吧，就像我说的，他——
He loves Samuel Barber more than you do, or what would it be?
他比你更爱塞缪尔·巴伯，或者会是什么？
Like I say, Dana loves opera, he loves opera, he’s passionate about opera.
就像我说的，达纳热爱歌剧，他热爱歌剧，他对歌剧充满热情。
And opera is .
而歌剧则是。
.
。
.
。
like I say, I’ve gotten an education in opera, but it was very pragmatic, doing that.
就像我说的，我接受了歌剧教育，但这样做是非常务实的。
I’m more of a jazz person.
我更喜欢爵士乐。
But Dana knows a remarkable amount of jazz.
但达纳对爵士乐了解甚多。
You get Dana involved in a music conversation, even though that’s not his specialty, he can keep up with me point for point on everything.
你让达纳参与到音乐对话中，尽管这不是他的专长，但他可以在所有事情上一点一点地跟上我的步伐。
We’ve been talking about music, but you’ve had other lives, in fact.
我们一直在谈论音乐，但事实上，你也有过其他的生活。
Was it a waste of time to get a Stanford MBA?
获得斯坦福大学 MBA 学位是浪费时间吗？
Well, I did it for the worst possible reason.
好吧，我这样做是出于最糟糕的原因。
I came from a poor family, and when I went to college, I felt I owed it to my parents to get some marketable skills.
我来自一个贫穷的家庭，当我上大学时，我觉得我应该感谢我的父母，让我获得一些适销对路的技能。
Even though I knew that jazz was my thing, and I was practicing the piano three hours a day, and I was very interested in arts and culture, I got this MBA to have those marketable skills because I felt that I owed that to Mom and Dad.
尽管我知道爵士乐是我的专长，而且我每天练习三个小时钢琴，而且我对艺术和文化非常感兴趣，但我获得 MBA 学位是为了拥有这些适销对路的技能，因为我觉得我欠爸爸妈妈这些。
But as it turned out, it has proven very useful.
但事实证明，它非常有用。
You’d be surprised how much of my music research, I rely on what I learned at the Boston Consulting Group and McKinsey, just applying those analytical skills.
你会惊讶地发现，我的音乐研究在很大程度上依赖于我在波士顿咨询集团和麦肯锡学到的东西，只是应用了这些分析技能。
What would be an example of that?
举个什么例子？
Well, let me give you an example.
好吧，让我举个例子。
When I was at the Boston Consulting Group, we were analyzing new product introductions.
当我在波士顿咨询集团时，我们正在分析新产品的推出。
So, the idea—a new product is coming out, a new computer or something, and you have to predict how it’s going to sell over the next five, ten years.
所以，这个想法是——一种新产品即将问世，一种新电脑或其他东西，你必须预测它在未来五年、十年内的销售情况。
We had these mathematical formulas we used to predict the spread of an innovation, and I found that these mathematical formulas had all been developed to track diseases.
我们有这些数学公式来预测创新的传播，我发现这些数学公式都是为了追踪疾病而开发的。
These were the same formulas they used at the World Health Organization.
这些与他们在世界卫生组织使用的公式相同。
If there’s a new flu somewhere, they use the same formulas to track the spread of a disease that we used to track the spread of an innovation.
如果某个地方出现了新的流感，他们会使用与我们追踪创新传播相同的公式来追踪疾病的传播。
Now, fast forward.
现在，快进。
Fifteen years later, I’m working on researching the history of jazz, and I’m studying New Orleans, and it was such an unhealthy city.
十五年后，我正在研究爵士乐的历史，我正在研究新奥尔良，那是一个非常不健康的城市。
In fact, New Orleans was the unhealthiest city in the United States at the time when jazz was invented.
事实上，在爵士乐发明时，新奥尔良是美国最不健康的城市。
And I asked myself, could there be a connection between the spread of disease and the spread of a musical innovation?
我问自己，疾病的传播和音乐创新的传播之间是否存在联系？
Because based upon what I learned at the Boston Consulting Group, there might.
因为根据我在波士顿咨询集团学到的知识，有可能。
Then I started looking at other situations, and I found a surprising number of situations in history where unhealthy settings and situations had created artistic revolutions.
然后我开始研究其他情况，我发现历史上有数量惊人的情况，其中不健康的环境和情况创造了艺术革命。
Most people date the start of the Renaissance to the year 1350 in the city of Florence.
大多数人将文艺复兴的起始日期定为 1350 年，佛罗伦萨市。
They don’t realize, 1348 was the Great Plague in Florence.
他们没有意识到，1348 年是佛罗伦萨的大瘟疫。
What people don’t realize, the troubadour revolution spread from the South of France into the rest of Europe.
人们没有意识到，游吟诗人革命从法国南部蔓延到欧洲其他地区。
It followed the exact same dissemination patterns the Black Death did.
它遵循与黑死病完全相同的传播模式。
So, classic example: I am taking analytical tools that I learned at the Boston Consulting Group and McKinsey, and I’m applying it to music problems.
所以，经典的例子是：我正在使用我在波士顿咨询集团和麦肯锡学到的分析工具，并将其应用于音乐问题。
I’ve done this in many instances.
我在很多情况下都这样做过。
A lot of my work on blues is taking aspects of things I learned back then.
我在布鲁斯方面的很多工作都借鉴了我当时学到的东西。
Was it a waste of time to get a philosophy, politics, and economics degree from Oxford?
从牛津获得哲学、政治和经济学学位是浪费时间吗？
In full disclosure to you, I have to say that I was able to get a degree from Oxford in philosophy, politics, and economics without ever studying the economics.
向您充分披露的是，我不得不说，我在没有学习经济学的情况下就能够从牛津大学获得哲学、政治和经济学学位。
I used a loophole.
我利用了一个漏洞。
I didn’t do any economics.
我没有学过任何经济学。
Most of my approach was philosophy.
我的大部分方法都是哲学。
An extremely abstract kind of philosophy interests me.
我对一种极其抽象的哲学感兴趣。
You mean like analytic philosophy?
你是说分析哲学吗？
Well, yeah, which I studied at Oxford.
嗯，是的，我在牛津大学学习过。
But existentialism.
但存在主义。
I dug into everything.
我深入研究了一切。
I still read a lot of philosophy, and I believe it has made me a much better music writer.
我仍然读了很多哲学，我相信它使我成为一个更好的音乐作家。
My first music book, The Imperfect Art, was essentially applying philosophical concepts and using them to build a new aesthetic philosophy out of jazz practices.
我的第一本音乐书《不完美的艺术》本质上是应用哲学概念，并利用它们从爵士乐实践中建立一种新的美学哲学。
And I think in my latest book, I’ve come back to some of it.
我想在我的最新书中，我已经回顾了其中的一些内容。
I really believe that understanding the history of philosophy and contemporary thought helps me at every stage in my music writing.
我坚信，了解哲学史和当代思想对我音乐创作的每个阶段都有帮助。
How has your own Sicilian-Mexican family background shaped your approach to music history and criticism and the ideas in your book Music: A Subversive History?
您自己的西西里-墨西哥家庭背景如何影响您对音乐史和批评的态度以及您在《音乐：颠覆性历史》一书中的想法？
I came from a very complex ethnic past, and it’s often a question, how much of that shows up in your own musical preferences?
我来自一个非常复杂的种族背景，这常常是一个问题，其中有多少体现在你自己的音乐偏好中？
I grew up in the thick of an Italian family, where I was always around my Italian relatives, some of them that didn’t speak English, and to some extent, my Mexican relatives as well.
我在一个意大利家庭中长大，我总是和我的意大利亲戚在一起，其中一些人不会说英语，在某种程度上，我的墨西哥亲戚也是如此。
And I look at the Italian culture’s love of melody and the Italian composers’ great emphasis on melody.
我看到了意大利文化对旋律的热爱以及意大利作曲家对旋律的高度重视。
And I know in my own musical preferences, melody is so important to me.
我知道在我自己的音乐喜好中，旋律对我来说非常重要。
This is why I wrote a book on West Coast jazz and cool jazz — people like Chet Baker or Paul Desmond.
这就是为什么我写了一本关于西海岸爵士乐和酷爵士乐的书——像切特·贝克或保罗·德斯蒙德这样的人。
And people say, “Well, they’re not hot enough, Ted.
人们会说：“好吧，他们还不够热，特德。
Those aren’t the real jazz musicians.” But I have a real soft spot in my heart for any jazz musician that really masters the art of crafting a melody.
这些人不是真正的爵士音乐家。”但我内心对任何真正掌握创作旋律艺术的爵士音乐家都有着真正的情有独钟。
And sometimes I wonder if that’s my Italian heritage coming to the forefront.
有时我想知道这是否是我的意大利血统脱颖而出。
Does music criticism have an economic future?
音乐批评有经济前景吗？
Newspapers are laying off their music critics, right?
报纸正在解雇音乐评论家，对吗？
Well, this is a big thing.
嗯，这是一件大事。
My sons are both interested in arts and culture.
我的儿子们都对艺术和文化感兴趣。
My nephews are, and it seems everybody in my family wants to be a writer.
我的侄子们是，而且似乎我们家里的每个人都想成为一名作家。
And I always say, “Why doesn’t somebody in a family want to trade mortgage derivatives or something?
我总是说，“为什么家里有人不想交易抵押贷款衍生品或其他东西？
Why does everybody want to be a writer?” And the truth is, it’s hard at this phase in history to make a living as a writer.
为什么每个人都想成为一名作家？”事实是，在历史的这个阶段，以作家的身份谋生是很困难的。
The one thing I tell people is, if you’re going to do this, you must find some area of expertise and that you know that better than anybody else.
我告诉人们的一件事是，如果你要这样做，你必须找到一些专业领域，并且你比其他任何人都更了解这一点。
So I still think that in music, if you want to be a music writer, you can do it.
所以我仍然认为在音乐方面，如果你想成为一名音乐作家，你就可以做到。
But you must have the goal of being one of the few people in the world that really knows your section of music as well as anybody.
但你的目标必须是成为世界上少数几个真正了解你的音乐领域的人之一。
Then it’s not just writing.
那么这不仅仅是写作。
People will call on you to do liner notes, give talks.
人们会请你做笔记、发表演讲。
They’ll want to consult your expertise.
他们会想咨询你的专业知识。
You’ll get called to be a judge on panels.
您将被邀请担任小组评委。
The key thing as a writer is to develop the expertise, and then to use writing as one aspect of what you do.
作为一名作家，关键是培养专业知识，然后将写作作为你工作的一个方面。
Can you ever trust someone who does not have actually good taste in music?
你能相信一个对音乐没有真正品味的人吗？
Well, you might be able to trust them in other things, but there’s no substitute for taste and discrimination in music.
好吧，你也许可以在其他事情上相信他们，但在音乐方面的品味和辨别力是无可替代的。
I think Wynton Marsalis was right.
我认为温顿·马萨利斯是对的。
He said — and this is controversial — but he said, if you take somebody who spent their whole life just eating McDonald’s hamburgers, you could take them to the best Michelin-starred restaurant in the world — they wouldn’t enjoy it because they would not have cultivated their taste to understand that.
他说——这是有争议的——但他说，如果你带一个一辈子只吃麦当劳汉堡的人，你可以带他们去世界上最好的米其林星级餐厅——他们不会喜欢它，因为他们不会培养自己的品味来理解这一点。
Music is no different, so unless you’ve cultivated your taste, your ability to appreciate — especially new sounds — will be severely limited.
音乐也不例外，所以除非你培养了自己的品味，否则你的欣赏能力——尤其是新声音——将受到严重限制。
Let’s say a smart 18-year-old comes to you, and that person has been listening to good popular music but says, “Now I’ve learned there’s more out there.
假设一个聪明的 18 岁年轻人来找你，那个人一直在听优秀的流行音乐，但他说：“现在我了解到还有更多的东西。
I want to cultivate better taste in music.” What do you tell them to do?
我想培养更好的音乐品味。”你告诉他们做什么？
Well, I tell them the same thing I tell anybody in any field whatsoever, which is work to get outside your comfort zone.
好吧，我告诉他们的事情和我告诉任何领域的任何人的事情一样，那就是走出你的舒适区。
I don’t care what you do.
我不在乎你做什么。
I don’t care whether you’re a scientist or an engineer or a teacher or a music critic or music fan.
我不在乎你是科学家、工程师、教师、音乐评论家还是音乐迷。
The most broadening experiences you will have in your life is when you go outside your own comfort zone into new territory.
当你走出自己的舒适区进入新的领域时，你将获得人生中最开阔的经历。
So I would tell them to do what I do.
所以我会告诉他们做我做的事。
I have consistently, over a period of years, tried to expose myself to new kinds of music that I hadn’t heard before.
多年来，我一直试图让自己接触以前从未听过的新音乐。
And if you do that, you will learn.
如果你这样做了，你就会学到东西。
But also, you’ll enjoy it.
而且，你也会喜欢它。
This is the path to enjoyment, to open your ears up to these new experiences.
这是通往享受的道路，打开你的耳朵去感受这些新的体验。
On the Ted Gioia production function
关于 Ted Gioia 生产函数
For our final segment, I have a few questions about what I call the Ted Gioia production function.
对于我们的最后一部分，我有几个关于我所说的 Ted Gioia 生产函数的问题。
Is it better to work and read to music?
边听音乐边工作更好吗？
Or should those be separate activities?
或者这些应该是单独的活动？
It depends.
这取决于。
I believe you can make a very strong philosophical case for what I call the New Age philosophy of music.
我相信你可以为我所说的新时代音乐哲学提出一个非常有力的哲学案例。
And that philosophy is that music should be integrated into every aspect of your life or can be integrated into every aspect of your life.
这个哲学是音乐应该融入你生活的各个方面，或者可以融入你生活的各个方面。
I believe that.
我相信这一点。
Now what I have to say is, in practice, the New Age music that did this was lousy and unlistenable.
现在我要说的是，在实践中，这样做的新纪元音乐是糟糕且难以听的。
But I still believe very much, in principle, it’s okay to have music integrated in your life.
但我仍然非常相信，原则上，将音乐融入你的生活是可以的。
I know it’s very fashionable to say background music is awful, or music should always be in the foreground.
我知道现在流行说背景音乐很糟糕，或者音乐应该永远在前台。
But after having done all the research I’ve done in music history, I now see the exact opposite.
但在完成了我在音乐史方面所做的所有研究之后，我现在看到了完全相反的情况。
And I’ll just give a couple examples.
我只举几个例子。
It’s amazing how many surgeons use music while they operate — 60 percent of surgeons will have a song on while they’re cutting you open.
令人惊奇的是，有多少外科医生在手术时使用音乐——60% 的外科医生在给你切开手术时会放一首歌。
We now learn that at the highest level of peak athletic performance, a lot of care is taken to what songs you listen to while you do your athletic work.
我们现在了解到，在最高水平的巅峰运动表现中，您在进行运动时会非常注意听什么歌曲。
And I could give you 50 other examples, but the point is there’s nothing wrong with music being integrated into life experiences, and in fact, we should cultivate that.
我还可以举出 50 个其他例子，但重点是，将音乐融入生活经历并没有什么错，事实上，我们应该培养这一点。
How is it you manage to listen to so much music?
你是怎么做到听这么多音乐的？
I think the most important skill anyone can develop is time management skills, how you use your day.
我认为任何人都可以培养的最重要的技能是时间管理技能，即如何利用你的一天。
But there is one principle I want to stress because this is very important to me, and when people ask me for advice — and once again, this cuts across all fields — but this is the advice I give.
但我想强调一个原则，因为这对我来说非常重要，当人们向我寻求建议时——再一次，这涉及所有领域——但这就是我给出的建议。
In your life, you will be evaluated on your output.
在你的生活中，人们会根据你的产出来评价你。
Your boss will evaluate you on your output.
你的老板会根据你的产出来评估你。
If you’re a writer like me, the audience will evaluate you on your output.
如果你是像我一样的作家，观众会根据你的作品来评价你。
But your input is just as important.
但您的意见同样重要。
If you don’t have good input, you cannot maintain good output.
如果没有良好的输入，就无法保持良好的输出。
The problem is no one manages your input.
问题是没有人管理你的输入。
The boss never cares about your input.
老板从来不关心你的意见。
The boss doesn’t care about what books you read.
老板不在乎你读什么书。
Your boss doesn’t ask you what newspapers you read.
你的老板不会问你读什么报纸。
The boss doesn’t ask you what movies you saw or what TV shows or what ideas you consumed.
老板不会问你看过什么电影或电视节目或你有什么想法。
But I know for a fact, I could not do what I do if I was not zealous in managing high-quality inputs into my mind every day of my life.
但我知道，如果我每天不热衷于管理输入到我大脑中的高质量输入，我就无法完成我所做的事情。
That’s why I spend maybe two hours a day writing.
这就是为什么我每天花两个小时写作。
I’m a writer.
我是一名作家。
I spend two hours a day writing, but I spend three to four hours a day reading and two to three hours a day listening to music.
我每天花两个小时写作，但每天花三到四个小时阅读，每天花两到三个小时听音乐。
People think that that’s creating a problem in my schedule, but in fact, I say, “No, no, this is the reason why I’m able to do this.
人们认为这给我的日程安排带来了问题，但事实上，我说，“不，不，这就是我能够做到这一点的原因。
Because I have constant good-quality input.” That is the only reason why I can maintain the output.
因为我有持续不断的优质输入。”这是我能够维持输出的唯一原因。
And what’s your most significant tip for how we can learn to listen to music better?
对于我们如何更好地学习听音乐，您最重要的建议是什么？
The most important thing right now is to understand that the best music in our society is under the radar screen for many complex reasons.
现在最重要的是要明白，由于许多复杂的原因，我们社会中最好的音乐都在雷达屏幕之下。
Record labels are looking for the formula.
唱片公司正在寻找这个公式。
Radio stations are following the formula.
广播电台遵循这个公式。
Even these amazing curated playlists are just a feedback loop.
即使这些令人惊叹的精选播放列表也只是一个反馈循环。
They’ll tell you what to listen to next week based on what you listened to last week.
他们会根据您上周听的内容告诉您下周要听什么。
And because they’re a feedback loop, they won’t show you anything new or interesting.
而且因为它们是一个反馈循环，所以它们不会向您展示任何新的或有趣的东西。
So what you need to do, if you really want to broaden your horizons as a listener, is to get exposed to new things.
因此，如果你真的想拓宽作为倾听者的视野，你需要做的就是接触新事物。
Pick somebody.
选一个人吧
It doesn’t have to be me.
不一定是我。
I recommend a new album pretty much every day on my Twitter feed.
我几乎每天都会在 Twitter 上推荐一张新专辑。
And every year, I talk about the hundred best albums of the year, and I focus specifically on albums most people would never hear otherwise.
每年，我都会谈论年度百张最佳专辑，并且我特别关注大多数人否则永远不会听到的专辑。
So you can turn to me, but it doesn’t have to be me.
所以你可以求助于我，但不一定是我。
Find somebody who you trust as a guide, and let them open your ears to these new experiences.
找一个你信任的人作为向导，让他们敞开心扉聆听这些新体验。
If you do that, you will be rewarded infinitely because music is an amazing part of our life.
如果你这样做，你将获得无限的回报，因为音乐是我们生活中令人惊奇的一部分。
And if you don’t enjoy the riches of it, you’re selling yourself short.
如果你不享受其中的财富，你就是低估了自己。
Ted Gioia, thank you very much.
特德·乔亚，非常感谢你。
And for all of our listeners and readers, I very much recommend Ted’s new book.
对于我们所有的听众和读者，我非常推荐特德的新书。
Again, that’s Music: A Subversive History.
再说一遍，这就是音乐：颠覆性的历史。
Thank you, Ted.
谢谢你，特德。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。