Sujatha Gidla on Being an Ant Amongst the Elephants (Ep. 30 - Live)
I’m honored here to be chatting with Sujatha.
我很荣幸能在这里与 Sujatha 聊天。
In my view, her book, Ants Among Elephants, is one of the most important of this year.
在我看来，她的书《大象中的蚂蚁》是今年最重要的书之一。
Let me start with a simple question of definition.
让我从一个简单的定义问题开始。
Define for us all just very quickly, Dalits, untouchables, and Scheduled Caste.
很快为我们所有人定义：达利特人、贱民和在册种姓。
And Harijan.
还有哈里詹。
All these words are words for untouchable, depending on the political era.
所有这些词都是“贱民”的意思，这取决于政治时代。
Dalit is the latest politically correct term for untouchable, which is also accepted by untouchables.
贱民是贱民的最新政治正确术语，也被贱民所接受。
Is it correct to say that about one-sixth of India is Dalit?
印度大约六分之一的人口是达利特人，这样说对吗？
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Give us an example of segregation to the caste system as it would affect Dalits.
请给我们举一个种姓制度隔离的例子，因为它会影响达利特人。
The word is untouchables.
这个词是不可触碰的。
That is the neutral, matter-of-fact, politically neutral word.
这是一个中立、实事求是、政治中立的词。
It is all in the word.
一切尽在言语之中。
They’re not to be touched.
他们不能被碰。
If you touch them, you’re polluted, and you have to cleanse yourself.
如果你触摸它们，你就被污染了，你必须净化自己。
Segregation is the most prominent issue for untouchables.
隔离是贱民最突出的问题。
They’re not allowed to live inside the village.
他们不被允许住在村里。
Actually all castes, they have their own colonies.
其实所有种姓都有自己的殖民地。
They don’t mingle, but all of these colonies are inside the village whereas untouchables are outside of the village.
他们不会混在一起，但所有这些殖民地都在村内，而贱民则在村外。
They come into the village only to work.
他们进村只是为了干活。
In terms of marrying or what job you might have or what job you might be allowed to have, those would all be cases where there’s significant segregation in Indian society today.
就婚姻或您可能从事什么工作或您可能被允许从事什么工作而言，这些都是当今印度社会存在严重种族隔离的情况。
Yeah.
是的。
Untouchables are .
贱民是。
.
。
.
。
the main features are segregation and the inheritance of caste.
主要特点是种族隔离和种姓继承。
Caste is by birth.
种姓是天生的。
You cannot acquire caste.
你无法获得种姓。
You’re untouchable if you’re born to untouchable family.
如果你出生于贱民家庭，你就是贱民。
This is maintained by endogamy, that is, marriage within one’s own caste.
这是通过内婚制维持的，即在自己种姓内的婚姻。
Marriage outside of the caste is very, very stigmatized and not allowed.
种姓之外的婚姻是非常非常耻辱的，也是不允许的。
It’s not allowed to the extent that parents themselves can kill the girl for marrying outside of the caste.
父母可以因为女孩与种姓外的人结婚而杀死女孩，这是不允许的。
On outsider views of Indian castes
局外人对印度种姓的看法
If I think back in time a bit, people in the United States, they’re very familiar with the apartheid system of South Africa.
如果我回想一下过去，美国人对南非的种族隔离制度非常熟悉。
There was here a very strong protest movement against that.
这里有一场非常强烈的抗议运动。
There were boycotts.
有人抵制。
People talked about it quite frequently.
人们经常谈论它。
With respect to the caste system in India, you have many millions of people existing in a segregated existence, segregated setup, and hardly anyone here talks about it at all.
就印度的种姓制度而言，有数百万人生活在隔离的环境中，这里几乎没有人谈论它。
Hardly anyone complains.
几乎没有人抱怨。
Why is there this difference?
为什么会有这样的差异呢？
Why do we as outsiders have such an apparently indifferent attitude toward Indian caste?
为什么我们作为外人对印度种姓持如此明显冷漠的态度？
First of all, America is a big country, the most influential country in the world, militarily and industrially, the most advanced country.
首先，美国是一个大国，是世界上最有影响力的国家，军事和工业上最先进的国家。
Whatever happens here, it’s telecast and broadcast everywhere in the world.
无论这里发生什么，世界各地都会进行电视转播。
So we come to know what happens in America, not so much the other way around.
所以我们开始了解美国发生了什么，而不是相反。
What happens in India doesn’t get necessarily around.
印度发生的事情不一定会流传开来。
America is a big country, the most influential country in the world, militarily and industrially, the most advanced country.
美国是一个大国，是世界上最有影响力的国家，军事和工业上最先进的国家。
Whatever happens here, it’s telecast and broadcast everywhere in the world.
无论这里发生什么，世界各地都会进行电视转播。
So we come to know what happens in America, not so much the other way around.
所以我们开始了解美国发生了什么，而不是相反。
What happens in India doesn’t get necessarily around.
印度发生的事情不一定会流传开来。
The second thing is, while practicing caste, Indian castes and rulers are very secretive, very, very secretive about caste.
第二件事是，在实行种姓制度的同时，印度的种姓和统治者对种姓非常保密。
They’d like to tell people that there is no such thing as caste.
他们想告诉人们，没有种姓这样的东西。
One of the reactions to my book is “Why is she washing the dirty linen in the public?
对我的书的反应之一是“她为什么要在公共场合洗脏衣服？
Why is she telling everybody there is caste system?”
她为什么要告诉大家有种姓制度？”
What would the Dalit critique of Gandhi be?
达利特人对甘地的批评是什么？
Often westerners think of Gandhi who was someone almost saintly, yet a lot of the Dalits—Dr. Ambedkar would be the most obvious example—had a very strong debate with Gandhi.
西方人常常想到甘地，他几乎是一个圣人，但很多达利特人——甘地博士。安贝德卡是最明显的例子——与甘地进行了激烈的辩论。
Over what?
超过什么？
Ambedkar was the leader of the untouchables.
安贝德卡是贱民的领袖。
He devoted his life for the untouchables.
他为贱民奉献了一生。
The people, and he himself, saw him as the Moses of the untouchables.
人们和他本人都将他视为贱民的摩西。
That he was going to lead them out of .
他要带领他们离开。
.
。
.
。
emancipate them.
解放他们。
Gandhi wanted to encroach on this leadership.
甘地想要蚕食这一领导地位。
He wanted to claim leadership of all of the people in India, including untouchables and Muslims.
他想领导印度全体人民，包括贱民和穆斯林。
So there’s a tussle between Ambedkar and Gandhi.
因此，安贝德卡和甘地之间发生了争斗。
Who is the real representative of untouchables?
谁才是真正的贱民代表？
On the problems of caste and the segregated Indian system
关于种姓和印度种族隔离制度的问题
In your view, to what extent are the sexual harassment and rape problems in India in some way actually problems of caste?
在您看来，印度的性骚扰和强奸问题在某种程度上实际上是种姓问题？
Caste, as I said, endogamy, marrying within one’s own caste, and not allowed to marry outside the caste is really one of the features that you can say is the crux of caste system.
种姓，正如我所说，内婚制，即在自己种姓内通婚，而不允许与种姓外通婚，这确实是种姓制度的特点之一，可以说是症结所在。
Because of this, there is a lot of restrictions on women’s freedom because they don’t want her to marry someone outside of the caste.
正因为如此，女性的自由受到很多限制，因为她们不希望她嫁给种姓之外的人。
Although women’s suppression is everywhere in the world, even in America as you know, but the particular intensity of women’s oppression stems out of caste restrictions, they are not allowed to marry from outside.
虽然世界各地都存在对妇女的压迫，甚至在美国也是如此，但妇女受压迫的特殊程度源于种姓限制，她们不允许与外地人结婚。
Because of how much value you put on the girl’s chastity, that becomes a very valuable thing for them.
因为你对女孩的贞操有多重视，这对他们来说就变得非常有价值。
Women’s chastity’s a valuable thing for their community and for the family.
妇女的贞操对于她们的社区和家庭来说都是很有价值的。
So if you want to insult someone and if you want to hurt someone, the cruelest way is to rape somebody.
所以如果你想侮辱某人，如果你想伤害某人，最残忍的方式就是强奸某人。
It’s the other side of the coin that you put so much stress on the chastity of the woman.
这是硬币的另一面，你太看重女人的贞操了。
I think it is the worst hurt you can inflict on somebody.
我认为这是你可以对某人造成的最严重的伤害。
It all comes from caste, if you want to insult somebody.
如果你想侮辱某人，这一切都来自种姓。
For example, in partition of India into Pakistan, the rape of women is a major, major feature.
比如印度被巴基斯坦瓜分，强奸妇女就是一个很大很大的特点。
Now I came at this very much as an outsider, but I tend to think of Indian caste as intersecting with at least a few different things.
现在我作为一个局外人来看待这个问题，但我倾向于认为印度种姓至少与一些不同的事物有交叉。
Let me mention them, and maybe you can give us a framework for thinking about it.
让我提一下，也许你可以给我们一个思考的框架。
Caste and vegetarianism: so Dalits are less likely to be vegetarian.
种姓和素食主义：所以达利特人吃素食的可能性较小。
Caste and one’s philosophy of interaction with dead bodies, and also caste and notions of defecation—open defecation, and cleaning up of open defecation.
种姓和一个人与尸体互动的哲学，还有种姓和排便的概念——露天排便，以及清理露天排便。
What’s your take on how all of that intersects with caste and the segregated Indian system?
您如何看待所有这些与种姓和印度种族隔离制度的交叉？
Actually, as people might mistakenly think, not all Indians are vegetarians.
事实上，正如人们可能错误地认为的那样，并非所有印度人都是素食主义者。
It’s only the Brahmins who are not allowed to eat meat or fish.
只有婆罗门不能吃肉或鱼。
Even that is not true of all the places in India.
但印度各地也并非如此。
For Bihar, they eat beef (Brahmins).
对于比哈尔邦，他们吃牛肉（婆罗门）。
In Kolkata, they eat fish.
在加尔各答，他们吃鱼。
In our areas, they don’t eat meat or eggs or anything like that.
在我们地区，他们不吃肉或鸡蛋或类似的东西。
Beef is taboo for all of Hindus except Dalits.
除达利特人外，牛肉对所有印度教徒来说都是禁忌。
Dalits survived on carcass, the dead animals.
达利特人依靠动物尸体生存。
What else did you want .
你还想要什么。
.
。
.
。
?
？
Handling of dead bodies and handling of defecation and sanitary issues.
处理尸体以及处理排便和卫生问题。
How does that intersect with caste and jobs of different caste members?
这与种姓和不同种姓成员的工作有何交叉？
Caste is also about occupation.
种姓也与职业有关。
It’s an imposed occupation.
这是一种强加的职业。
Each caste has its own occupation.
每个种姓都有自己的职业。
The occupations that are given or forced on untouchables are what Hindu society deems unclean and menial.
给予或强迫贱民从事的职业是印度教社会认为不洁和卑贱的。
All of these things—handling of the dead bodies, tannery, removing dead animals, and cleaning latrines—of course, nobody else wants to do; so it’s occupations imposed on untouchables.
所有这些事情——处理尸体、制革、清除死去的动物和清理厕所——当然，没有其他人愿意做；所以这是强加给贱民的职业。
You’re a critic of this form of segregation, but let’s say you had a very intelligent Indian here who is in some way a defender or apologist for the system, or a critic of you.
你是这种形式种族隔离的批评者，但假设你这里有一个非常聪明的印度人，他在某种程度上是该制度的捍卫者或辩护者，或者是你的批评者。
What is it they would say in response to you?
他们会回答你什么？
First of all, somewhat timid people will say there is no such thing as caste.
首先，有些胆怯的人会说不存在种姓这种东西。
Some people will say caste is by your merit.
有些人会说种姓是由你的优点决定的。
It’s not discriminatory based on your caste.
这不会因为你的种姓而受到歧视。
Whoever is intelligent can become Brahmins.
谁有智慧，谁就能成为婆罗门。
That is pure nonsense because caste is by birth.
这纯粹是无稽之谈，因为种姓是与生俱来的。
Some people—actually, like the person in your blog—says that “Caste gives color to society.
有些人——实际上，就像你博客中的那个人——说“种姓给社会带来了色彩。
Different castes make it interesting.” So why doesn’t he want to be an untouchable for a change, if that’s what he wants?
不同的种姓让它变得有趣。”那么，如果他想要改变，为什么他不想成为一个贱民呢？
One person said to me—tell me if you agree or not—“Caste mostly disappears when you move to an Indian city.”
一个人对我说——告诉我你是否同意——“当你搬到印度城市时，种姓基本上消失了。”
That is not true.
那不是真的。
Caste is basically a village-based institution.
种姓基本上是一个以村庄为基础的机构。
That’s where it is most rigorously practiced.
这就是实践最严格的地方。
But even when you come to towns, like my family did, we lived in a segregated area.
但即使你来到城镇，就像我的家人一样，我们也住在一个隔离区。
We were not allowed to rent houses in other areas.
我们不允许在其他地区租房子。
At one time, my father’s friend agreed to take us in, but when we went there with all our things, the wife said, “No, you can’t have them here.”
有一次，我父亲的朋友同意收留我们，但当我们带着所有东西去那里时，妻子说：“不，你不能把它们放在这里。”
Let’s say you belong to one of the lower castes, and you and/or your family, you decided to convert to Christianity, to Buddhism—as Dr. Ambedkar did—to Islam, to Sikhism.
假设您属于较低种姓之一，并且您和/或您的家人决定皈依基督教、佛教（就像安贝德卡博士所做的那样）皈依伊斯兰教、锡克教。
What then happens?
然后会发生什么？
Does caste go away?
种姓会消失吗？
No, it doesn’t.
不，事实并非如此。
There is confusion introduced in the caste system because people think Hinduism is casteism.
种姓制度造成了混乱，因为人们认为印度教就是种姓制度。
It’s in a way right because Hinduism is a tailor-made religion.
这在某种程度上是正确的，因为印度教是一种量身定制的宗教。
As one anthropologist said, it’s mysticism, but basically it’s a system to prop up caste system.
正如一位人类学家所说，这是神秘主义，但基本上它是一个支撑种姓制度的制度。
It tells you the rules for untouchables and for women.
它告诉你贱民和女性的规则。
That is all Hinduism is about.
这就是印度教的全部内容。
Shorn of mysticism, it’s a prop for caste system.
除去神秘主义，它是种姓制度的支柱。
Caste system is a social issue, but the religion coincides with the social.
种姓制度是一个社会问题，但宗教与社会是重合的。
That’s why it looks like it’s a religious issue.
这就是为什么它看起来像是一个宗教问题。
It’s not actually a religious issue.
这实际上不是一个宗教问题。
Therefore, when people convert to other religions, hoping that they will not be untouchables anymore, they will be disappointed because there is casteism in Christians and Dalits and Sikhs and any other religion in India.
因此，当人们皈依其他宗教，希望自己不再是贱民时，他们会感到失望，因为在印度的基督徒、达利特人和锡克教徒以及任何其他宗教中都存在种姓制度。
It’s a social issue.
这是一个社会问题。
Does Facebook make the caste system worse because, maybe, it’s harder to move to another village and pretend you don’t know anyone from your old caste?
Facebook 是否会让种姓制度变得更糟，因为也许搬到另一个村庄并假装你不认识旧种姓的人会更困难？
I can’t comment on that very much, but I don’t think it makes it any more difficult.
我对此无法发表太多评论，但我认为这不会让事情变得更加困难。
It’s already difficult enough, you know.
你知道，这已经够困难的了。
How would you think, analytically, about the forces that keep the caste system in place?
从分析的角度来看，您如何看待维持种姓制度的力量？
As you know, Article 17 of the Indian Constitution, it at least nominally outlaws caste.
正如你所知，印度宪法第17条至少在名义上禁止种姓。
The Indian president—not the most important office, as here—but there’s been a Dalit as president.
印度总统——不像这里那样是最重要的职位——但有一个达利特人担任总统。
Legally, there’s a system of reservations that’s in some ways similar to our affirmative action to give Dalits preferential treatment for some kinds of government jobs or posts in schools.
从法律上讲，有一个保留制度，在某些方面类似于我们的平权行动，即在某些政府工作或学校职位上给予达利特人优惠待遇。
Given those forces pushing against caste, what is keeping caste segregation in place?
考虑到这些反对种姓的力量，是什么让种姓隔离继续存在？
Caste is basically .
种姓基本上是。
.
。
.
。
it stems out of economic system.
它源于经济体系。
It stems out of occupation.
它源于职业。
It stems out of what job you do in the society.
它源于你在社会中所做的工作。
As long as the production is organized in such a way that you want a certain group of people always be available to do menial work and do the hard work if the economic system requires that, then the forces will try to keep untouchables in their place so that they can be used as laborers.
只要生产的组织方式是，你希望某一群人总是可以做粗活，如果经济制度需要的话，可以做艰苦的工作，那么力量就会试图让贱民留在他们的位置，以便他们可以被用作劳动力。
It does not go away unless the economic system and system of production are radically changed.
除非经济体系和生产体系发生根本性改变，否则它不会消失。
On caste and identity politics in the US
论美国的种姓和身份政治
Let’s say you come to the United States, as you did at age 26, and there are a large number of Indians in the United States, including of course in New York, New Jersey.
假设你26岁时来到美国，美国有大量印度人，当然包括纽约、新泽西州。
How much does the caste system persist here in this country amongst Indians?
在这个国家，印度人的种姓制度有多严重？
Very much.
非常。
I had bad experiences when I first came here because I knew nobody else but Indians.
当我第一次来到这里时，我有过糟糕的经历，因为除了印第安人我不认识其他人。
Once I was able to make friends with Americans, I never, never went back to Indian networks, it’s a very rabid system.
一旦我能够和美国人交朋友，我就再也不会回到印度网络了，这是一个非常疯狂的系统。
All these immigrant associations—ostensibly, they are there to celebrate Indian culture and festivals, but they’re actually the caste groups.
所有这些移民协会表面上是为了庆祝印度文化和节日，但实际上它们是种姓群体。
Some hide behind culture, but some others openly say that this is Brahmin American Association, and if you want to join the Facebook page, you have to tell their shibboleths like what’s your gotra, what’s your this, what’s your horoscope, this, that.
有些人躲在文化后面，但另一些人公开说这是美国婆罗门协会，如果你想加入 Facebook 页面，你必须告诉他们的口号，比如你的 gotra 是什么，你的这个是什么，你的星座是什么，这个，那个。
We’re not able to tell them because we don’t know what .
我们无法告诉他们，因为我们不知道什么。
.
。
.
。
Those are indicators of caste?
这些是种姓的标志吗？
Yeah.
是的。
In your view, should caste-based discrimination amongst Indians be recognized as a form of discrimination in American law?
您认为，印度人中基于种姓的歧视是否应该被视为美国法律中的一种歧视形式？
With regard to race, what’s going to happen if you recognize this as a legally objectionable thing?
关于种族问题，如果你承认这是在法律上令人反感的事情，会发生什么？
Nothing happens.
什么也没发生。
I don’t think any such thing can happen with caste.
我认为种姓不会发生这样的事情。
These people, the Brahmins, are formally entrenched in all high places in America.
这些人，即婆罗门，正式盘踞在美国所有的高层。
If you look at TV anchors, they’re all Brahmins.
如果你看看电视主播，他们都是婆罗门。
If you look at people who work in New York Times, they’re all Brahmins.
如果你看看《纽约时报》的工作人员，他们都是婆罗门。
If you look at people who are in Trump’s administration, they’re all upper caste.
如果你看看特朗普政府的人，你会发现他们都是上层种姓。
And they’re never, ever going to allow this thing to be recognized as a discrimination.
他们永远不会允许这件事被认为是一种歧视。
Here in America, we have this thing—people call it identity politics.
在美国，我们有这样的东西——人们称之为身份政治。
They mean many different things with that term.
他们用这个词来表达很多不同的意思。
I would say it’s more prominent in the Democratic Party than Republican, though the Republican Party has its own unnamed brand of white identity politics often.
我想说，这一点在民主党中比在共和党中更为突出，尽管共和党经常有自己未命名的白人身份政治品牌。
When you see the ways in which people are informally grouped into different categories here, whether it be ethnicity or gender or sexual orientation, coming at this from Andhra Pradesh as a Dalit, how do you perceive this institution of ours?
当你看到人们在这里被非正式地分为不同类别时，无论是种族、性别还是性取向，来自安得拉邦的达利特人，你如何看待我们的这个机构？
Institution of?
机构？
Our identity politics.
我们的身份政治。
Do you think all the Americans have done it right?
你认为美国人都做对了吗？
Do you think the Americans are crazy?
你觉得美国人疯了吗？
How do you feel about how we do identity politics?
您对我们进行身份政治的方式有何看法？
I’m against identity politics.
我反对身份政治。
Altogether?
共？
For sure, yeah.
当然，是的。
I have seen bad things happen with identity politics, with untouchables as well.
我见过身份政治和贱民身上发生的糟糕事情。
All they fight for is reservations.
他们所争取的只是保留。
Reservations is based on your suffering, or suffering of untouchables in the villages.
预订是基于您的痛苦，或村庄中贱民的痛苦。
If you want reservations, then you’re indirectly asking for discrimination to be continued, on the basis of which you can gain a few seats in universities and political places.
如果你想要保留，那么你就间接要求继续歧视，以此为基础你可以在大学和政治场所获得一些席位。
The system of reservation in India, which is a form of affirmative action for lower castes, you think that’s a bad idea?
印度的保留制度是对低种姓采取平权行动的一种形式，你认为这是一个坏主意吗？
If I were there in the circumstances where that’s being implemented or written into constitution, I wouldn’t have been fighting actively for reservations because reservations is like putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound.
如果我在那个正在实施或写入宪法的情况下，我就不会积极争取保留，因为保留就像在枪伤上贴上创可贴。
So I would not be fighting for that.
所以我不会为此而战。
What I would be fighting for is equal access in all spheres of life.
我所争取的是生活各个领域的平等机会。
I wouldn’t have been fighting actively for reservations because reservations is like putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound.
我不会积极争取预订，因为预订就像在枪伤上贴创可贴。
So I would not be fighting for that.
所以我不会为此而战。
What I would be fighting for is equal access in all spheres of life.
我所争取的是生活各个领域的平等机会。
Reservations are here whether I fought for it or not, and attack on them is definitely a reactionary thing to do.
不管我是否争取，保留地都在这里，攻击他们绝对是反动的事情。
I would defend reservations from being attacked by upper-caste people.
我会捍卫保留地免受高种姓人的攻击。
But reservations have done nothing much at all for untouchables, and there are a lot of downsides for reservations.
但预订对于贱民来说并没有多大作用，而且预订也有很多缺点。
I had some Indians write me emails—I found this somewhat unusual—and they asked, “You need to find out about how she got a master’s from a very good school starting off as a Dalit from a village.” And they were very intent on knowing to what extent you had used reservations.
我让一些印度人给我写了电子邮件——我发现这有点不寻常——他们问道：“你需要了解她是如何从一个来自村庄的达利特人开始，从一所非常好的学校获得硕士学位的。”他们非常想知道您使用预订的程度。
You don’t have to tell us.
您不必告诉我们。
Feel free to tell us what you want, but how should we even frame this question?
请随意告诉我们您想要什么，但我们应该如何构建这个问题呢？
I will say this: Everybody is dying to know whether I got into university because of reservations.
我会这样说：每个人都非常想知道我是否因为保留而进入大学。
My answer to them is, “Go ahead and die.”
我对他们的回答是：“去死吧。”
Because this is going to be out in the public, I’m not going to give them the satisfaction of knowing whether I got in because of reservations or not, but I can tell you in private how I got into engineering and big institutes.
因为这将公开，所以我不会让他们满意地知道我是否因为保留而进入，但我可以私下告诉你我是如何进入工程和大型机构的。
On her life in India and moving to America
关于她在印度的生活和搬到美国
Now, I’d like to ask you some questions about your life, but I would just stress, please, if you don’t want to answer anything, feel free to just leave it aside, and we’ll move on.
现在，我想问你一些关于你生活的问题，但我只是强调，如果你不想回答任何问题，请把它放在一边，我们继续前进。
In India, how and why were you arrested and at what age?
在印度，您是如何被捕、为何被捕的以及被捕时的年龄？
I was 19 years old.
那年我19岁。
I lived in a very poor neighborhood, and it affected me a lot.
我住在一个非常贫穷的社区，这对我影响很大。
Also, I must say that Christianity had an effect on us in our family.
另外，我必须说基督教对我们家庭产生了影响。
Your family is Christian.
你的家人都是基督徒。
Yeah, we view Christianity as a religion of kindness and compassion.
是的，我们认为基督教是一种仁慈和同情的宗教。
That is how we started.
我们就是这样开始的。
Then we moved into communism.
然后我们进入了共产主义。
I thought Christian brotherly love is the way to emancipation of all oppression in the world.
我认为基督教的兄弟之爱是解放世界上一切压迫的途径。
But when I grew up and I saw in churches people being discriminated—rich people and poor people in church—I thought, I don’t know what Jesus is going to do in the other world, but nothing is happening now.
但当我长大后，我看到人们在教堂里受到歧视——教堂里有富人和穷人——我想，我不知道耶稣会在另一个世界做什么，但现在什么也没有发生。
To me, what my uncle was doing seemed appealing at that time.
对我来说，叔叔所做的事情当时似乎很有吸引力。
It was very highly romantic movement.
这是一个非常浪漫的乐章。
Young people from high caste and very wealthy young people, people who had great futures sacrificed that, and they were fed into the mouth of state repression, and I was one of them.
来自高种姓的年轻人和非常富有的年轻人，那些拥有美好未来的人牺牲了这一点，他们被送进了国家镇压的嘴里，我就是其中之一。
I wanted to do something for the people.
我想为人民做点事。
What was it like being in prison after you were arrested?
被捕后入狱的感觉如何？
I really went blank.
我真的脑子一片空白。
After I got arrested, I really went blank.
被捕后，我真的脑子一片空白。
Things were happening to me.
事情正在发生在我身上。
Things were being done to me, but I really, really went blank.
人们对我做了一些事情，但我真的真的一片空白。
I accepted torture also in the same manner.
我也以同样的方式接受了酷刑。
I was in the jail for three months, and then I was released.
我被关了三个月，然后就被释放了。
My fervor had certainly calmed down in the sense that I don’t want to be romantic by getting arrested and killed or something like that.
我的热情肯定已经平静下来，因为我不想因为被捕和被杀之类的事情而变得浪漫。
But I still held the views of equality and justice, social justice.
但我仍然持有平等正义、社会正义的观点。
This experience made you more of a Christian, less of a Christian?
这次经历让你更像一个基督徒，还是更少一个基督徒？
No, I ditched Christianity when I was 12 years old.
不，我12岁时就放弃了基督教。
I never went back to it.
我再也没有回去过。
Your views evolved into .
你的观点演变成了。
.
。
.
。
?
？
I consider still myself a Marxist.
我认为自己仍然是一个马克思主义者。
Do you think of yourself as a Marxist in the sense of being a radical egalitarian or a Marxist in the sense of wanting the government to own all of the means of production?
您认为自己是激进平等主义者意义上的马克思主义者，还是希望政府拥有所有生产资料的马克思主义者？
No, it’s a worldview.
不，这是一种世界观。
I would say Marxism is a worldview, and Marxism looks at the world in terms of class, like feminists looks at the world as men and women, and religious people look at the world as Christians and non-Christians, and Marxists look at people as workers and capitalists.
我想说马克思主义是一种世界观，马克思主义从阶级的角度看待世界，就像女权主义者把世界看成男人和女人一样，宗教人士把世界看成基督徒和非基督徒，马克思主义者把人看成工人和资本家。
That is the worldview I hold, and I look at problems arising out of class difference, and I look at solutions that could arise out of class action.
这就是我所持有的世界观，我着眼于阶级差异所产生的问题，我着眼于阶级诉讼可能产生的解决方案。
At age 26, you left India, you come to the United States.
26 岁时，你离开印度，来到美国。
How was it that happened?
到底是怎么发生的呢？
Obviously, there may have been things you wanted to leave, but we all know migration is often shaped by social networks.
显然，有些东西你可能想离开，但我们都知道移民往往是由社交网络决定的。
There were, especially at that time, a relatively small number of Dalits here in the United States.
尤其是在当时，美国的达利特人数量相对较少。
So you didn’t have that network so much to connect to.
所以你没有太多的网络可以连接。
You’re from a village in India.
你来自印度的一个村庄。
What mentally, emotionally brought you to coming to this country?
是什么让你在精神上和情感上来到这个国家？
Everybody loves to be in America.
每个人都喜欢在美国。
There are people who go—
有人去——
Do they?
他们有吗？
GIDLA: —like mental about wanting to go to America, so I’m not an exception.
GIDLA：——就像想去美国一样，所以我也不例外。
My idea of coming here is to be more free.
我来这里的想法是更加自由。
Women are very, very, very repressed in India compared to here.
与这里相比，印度的女性受到非常、非常、非常的压抑。
People call me the first woman to be riding a bicycle in my town, but I’m really not the first one.
人们称我为镇上第一个骑自行车的女性，但我并不是第一个。
There are two other girls, but they closed their legs like this, and pedal like that.
还有两个女孩，却这样并拢双腿，那样蹬车。
I used to pedal like a man.
我曾经像个男人一样踩踏板。
There is not much scope for people like me to be in India.
像我这样的人在印度的生存空间并不大。
If you want to be free and nonchalant and carefree like guys, there is no scope there.
如果你想像男人一样自由、漫不经心、无忧无虑，那就没有余地了。
My main thing is to be free and intellectually free and free to pursue culture.
我最重要的是自由，思想上自由，自由地追求文化。
Even reading books is like, “Why is a woman reading books?” So for me, coming to America means a lot of social freedom.
即使读书也会问“女人为什么要读书？”所以对我来说，来到美国意味着很多社会自由。
When you came here expecting some kind of freedom, what was your biggest surprise?
当你来到这里期待某种自由时，你最大的惊讶是什么？
Biggest surprise?
最大的惊喜？
You hadn’t visited before, right?
您以前没来过，对吗？
You just came.
你刚来。
It was a huge decision with your life.
这对你的人生来说是一个重大的决定。
You’re just taking this huge move on a notion of freedom.
你只是为了自由的理念而采取了这一巨大的行动。
You come here.
你过来吧。
This is, of course, not in every way a free country—it’s far from perfect.
当然，这并不是一个在所有方面都自由的国家——它远非完美。
I fear we may have disappointed you in some ways.
我担心我们在某些方面可能让您失望了。
What was your biggest surprise?
你最大的惊喜是什么？
I can’t think of anything, but I used to think all old people that are by themselves, going around by themselves, are like beggars because old women don’t go out by themselves.
我想不出什么，但我曾经认为所有独自一人、独自四处走动的老人都像乞丐，因为老妇人不自己出去。
So I used to give money to these rich old women.
所以我过去常常给这些富有的老妇人钱。
Despite their brooches.
尽管他们有胸针。
On Marxism
论马克思主义
You mentioned a moment ago you had, broadly speaking, a Marxist view.
您刚才提到，从广义上讲，您有马克思主义观点。
As I’m sure you know, there’s a whole intellectual movement of pro-capitalist Dalits.
我相信你知道，有一场由亲资本主义达利特人组成的知识分子运动。
Chandra Bhan Prasad would be one of them.
钱德拉·班·普拉萨德就是其中之一。
Ahhh, God!
啊啊天啊！
COWEN: What do you think of them and where do you differ?
COWEN：您对他们有何看法？您的不同之处在哪里？
That particular person, Chandra Bhan Prasad, he makes me puke.
那个特别的人，钱德拉·班·普拉萨德（Chandra Bhan Prasad），他让我呕吐。
Tell us why.
告诉我们原因。
He was in the same Radical Students Union as I was, even though much older than me.
他和我在同一个激进学生会，尽管他比我大很多。
He went to JNU , which is the highest university in India for humanities.
他就读于印度最高的人文大学——暨南大学。
He studied something or other, sociology or something.
他研究过一些东西，社会学什么的。
The knowledge that he gained from being in RSU, Radical Students Union, and what he studied made him a good person to defect and become a mouthpiece for Dalit entrepreneurship and Dalit capitalism.
他从 RSU（激进学生会）获得的知识以及他所学的知识使他成为一个叛逃的好人，并成为达利特企业家精神和达利特资本主义的代言人。
Dalit capitalists, yeah, there are a few.
贱民资本家，是的，有一些。
There were none before.
以前没有。
There are a few.
有几个。
I think that they were given some kind of, I don’t know, perk to become capitalists so that people won’t say, “Oh, how come you’re so casteist?
我认为他们被给予了某种，我不知道，成为资本家的福利，这样人们就不会说，“哦，你怎么这么种姓？
You don’t have any Dalit capitalists?” But Dalit capitalists are very, very much lower compared to other capitalists from other castes.
你们没有贱民资本家吗？”但与其他种姓的资本家相比，达利特资本家的地位要低得多。
If you think of yourself as a Marxist, and you came to one of the most capitalist societies for freedom, is that in some way a contradiction in your worldview or you think it all makes sense?
如果你认为自己是一名马克思主义者，并且为了自由来到了最资本主义的社会之一，那么这在某种程度上是你的世界观的矛盾还是你认为这一切都有道理？
No, it’s not.
不，不是。
As I said, Marxism means class versus class, not nation versus nation.
正如我所说，马克思主义意味着阶级与阶级，而不是民族与民族。
In India, there are poor people and rich people.
在印度，有穷人和富人。
And in America, there are poor people and rich people.
在美国，有穷人和富人。
Why is it some sort of defection if I came here?
为什么我来到这里就成了某种叛逃？
I came here not to become a capitalist.
我来这里不是为了成为资本家。
On writing and not writing
关于写与不写
You’ve had two jobs here, at least two jobs.
你在这里做过两份工作，至少有两份工作。
One, you worked in the financial sector for the Bank of New York for a while, I believe until 2009.
第一，您曾在纽约银行的金融部门工作过一段时间，我相信直到 2009 年。
Now you’re a conductor of subway trains for the MTA in New York City.
现在，您是纽约市 MTA 地铁列车的售票员。
Which of those two jobs have you enjoyed more?
您更喜欢这两项工作中的哪一项？
I would say MTA job.
我会说 MTA 工作。
In Bank of New York, I was making much more money.
在纽约银行，我赚了更多的钱。
Even in 2009, I was making almost three times what I make in MTA.
即使在 2009 年，我的收入也几乎是 MTA 收入的三倍。
Then I have unlimited sick leave and personal days and five weeks’ vacation and stock options and things like that.
然后我有无限的病假和事假以及五周的假期和股票期权等等。
But the people are really so boring and uncosmopolitan.
但人们实在是太无聊、太不国际化了。
They are such narrow-minded people.
他们都是心胸狭隘的人。
I had this figurine of Darwin on my desk, and this guy was glaring at me because he’s a Catholic.
我的桌子上有一个达尔文的雕像，这个家伙瞪着我，因为他是天主教徒。
Charles Darwin?
查尔斯·达尔文？
Yeah.
是的。
We’re not like that in MTA.
我们 MTA 不是这样的。
We are very open and very passionate.
我们非常开放，也非常热情。
We are much more cosmopolitan.
我们更加国际化。
We discuss things openly and uninhibitedly, and yet at the same time, we don’t hurt each other.
我们公开、无拘无束地讨论事情，但同时，我们不会互相伤害。
You wrote your book, Ants among Elephants, while you had this full-time job as a subway conductor for the MTA.
当你在 MTA 担任地铁售票员时，你写了书《大象中的蚂蚁》。
You wrote it during the evening?
你是晚上写的吗？
Or what kind of hours did you have?
或者你有什么样的时间？
When did you write?
你什么时候写的？
How did you do it?
你是怎么做到的？
Actually, I didn’t do it; that’s why it took 10 years.
事实上，我没有这么做；这就是为什么花了10年的时间。
Then, I grew up in a family where there are always 25 people milling around in the house.
然后，我在一个总是有 25 个人在家里闲逛的家庭长大。
We were like sitting on the steps of the house trying to concentrate.
我们就像坐在房子的台阶上试图集中注意力。
I never sat at a desk.
我从来没有坐在办公桌前。
Now, it is how I work.
现在，这就是我的工作方式。
I cannot work at a desk in silence and in my privacy.
我无法在办公桌前安静地、私密地工作。
I work while commuting on the train, and I used to work during breaks at work, like that.
我在乘火车上下班的时候工作，以前在上班休息的时候也工作，就像这样。
And the break, you’re literally on the train, right?
休息时间，你实际上是在火车上，对吗？
You’re not in an office.
你不在办公室。
No, no, no. In the beginning .
不，不，不。一开始。
.
。
.
。
the beginners are called extra-extra, meaning that they’re sitting there, and if somebody got sick or they have to go home, they will jump in and take their job.
初学者被称为“额外的”，意思是他们坐在那里，如果有人生病了或者他们必须回家，他们就会跳进去接受他们的工作。
So half the time, we’re just sitting around for eight hours and going home, and half the time, we’re taking over for somebody else.
所以，一半的时间，我们只是坐在那里八个小时然后回家，一半的时间，我们接替别人。
I always used to carry a computer with me, and one of the names I have is Computer Girl, apart from Hindu Conductor.
我过去总是随身携带一台电脑，除了印度指挥之外，我的名字之一是“电脑女孩”。
What is it about the MTA that attracts so many interesting people?
MTA 为何吸引如此多有趣的人？
It’s very multiracial workforce.
这是一支非常多种族的劳动力队伍。
Not so much from Western Europe, but all the other colored countries and Eastern Europe people, they are there.
与其说来自西欧，不如说来自所有其他有色国家和东欧人民，他们都在那里。
They bring in their own experience, and they talk about it in crew rooms.
他们带来了自己的经验，并在船员室中谈论它。
It’s just more entertaining.
这只是更有趣。
For me, the thing is that I was working in Bank of New York writing programs, and I had no idea what it was I was writing programs for.
对我来说，问题是我在纽约银行编写程序，但我不知道我编写程序的目的是什么。
I should have known, but I didn’t really care.
我应该知道，但我并不在乎。
Now, I know what I’m doing is how it’s affecting.
现在，我知道我正在做的事情是如何产生影响的。
We’re taking people from point A to point B, where they want to go.
我们将人们从 A 点带到 B 点，他们想去的地方。
I know for sure that what I’m doing is very useful, and that makes me feel self-confident.
我确信我所做的事情非常有用，这让我感到自信。
What are the personal qualities you feel you have that make you a good MTA conductor?
您认为自己具备哪些个人品质，可以让您成为一名优秀的 MTA 售票员？
It’s a very strict job.
这是一项非常严格的工作。
It’s run on military kind of lines.
它是在军事线路上运行的。
If you have to be there at 20:32, then you have to be there at 20:32.
如果你必须在20:32到达，那么你就必须在20:32到达。
It’s all very difficult for me, but I really like the .
这对我来说非常困难，但我真的很喜欢。
.
。
.
。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’m pleasant when I’m helping people.
当我帮助别人时我很高兴。
I’m conscientious to help people that say “Get away from me.” I don’t know.
我会尽职尽责地帮助那些说“离我远点”的人。我不知道。
I like to be a good coworker rather than a good conductor.
我喜欢做一个好同事而不是一个好指挥。
OK.
好的。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Now, in these interviews, there’s always a segment in the middle called “Overrated versus Underrated.”
现在，在这些采访中，中间总是有一个片段，称为“高估与低估”。
Oh, yeah, I know.
哦，是的，我知道。
COWEN: I’m going to toss out some mentions.
COWEN：我要放弃一些提及。
Again, you’re free to pass if you don’t want to comment on them.
再说一次，如果你不想对它们发表评论，你可以随意通过。
I’ll say a few things, and you tell us if it’s overrated or underrated.
我会说一些事情，然后你告诉我们它是否被高估或低估。
In Manhattan, the cluster of Indian restaurants at about Lexington and 28th Street—overrated or underrated?
在曼哈顿，列克星敦和 28 街附近的印度餐厅集群——被高估还是被低估？
Normally rated.
通常评级。
Normally rated.
通常评级。
I would say that all the restaurants on Sixth Avenue, like at St. Mark’s, they are all trash.
我想说第六大道上的所有餐馆，比如圣马可餐馆，都是垃圾。
I agree.
我同意。
There’s not one I would want to eat at.
没有一家是我想吃的。
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
In Jackson Heights, in Queens, for Indian food, overrated or underrated?
在皇后区的杰克逊高地，对于印度美食，被高估还是被低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Still, you think?
不过，你觉得呢？
Yeah.
是的。
Bob Dylan?
鲍勃·迪伦？
No, underrated.
不，被低估了。
Why?
为什么？
I like Bob Dylan.
我喜欢鲍勃·迪伦。
I like him a lot.
我很喜欢他。
Why do you like him?
你为什么喜欢他？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
That’s what I grew up with.
这就是我成长的过程。
We got all the music and movies 10 years after you have them.
我们在您拥有所有音乐和电影 10 年后才获得它们。
Even though I wasn’t from the Beatles and Bob Dylan times, that’s what we got when I was growing up.
尽管我不是披头士乐队和鲍勃·迪伦时代的人，但这就是我成长过程中所经历的。
It really fascinated me that someone who’s singing nasally can be a popular singer-writer.
一个用鼻音唱歌的人可以成为一名受欢迎的歌手兼作家，这真的让我着迷。
We got all the music and movies 10 years after you have them.
我们在您拥有所有音乐和电影 10 年后才获得它们。
Even though I wasn’t from the Beatles and Bob Dylan times, that’s what we got when I was growing up.
尽管我不是披头士乐队和鲍勃·迪伦时代的人，但这就是我成长过程中所经历的。
It really fascinated me that someone who’s singing nasally can be a popular singer-writer.
一个用鼻音唱歌的人可以成为一名受欢迎的歌手兼作家，这真的让我着迷。
What is it from Bob Dylan, what song, what album, what something had the most impact on you?
鲍勃·迪伦的什么歌曲、什么专辑、什么东西对你影响最大？
My memory fails me.
我的记忆力衰退了。
Actually, in his Christian era, he has that “Man Gave Names to All the Animals.” I love that song.
事实上，在他的基督教时代，他有“人类给所有动物命名”。我喜欢那首歌。
Now, in Dalit music, there’s something called Dappu music.
现在，在达利特音乐中，有一种叫做达普音乐的东西。
Some of it uses leather; it has a lot of percussion.
有些使用皮革；有些则使用皮革。它有很多打击乐。
Overrated or underrated?
被高估还是被低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Yes?
是的？
Yeah.
是的。
What’s special about it?
它有什么特别之处？
The drum is used for calling people to a village meeting.
鼓是用来召集人们参加村民会议的。
It’s the job of a particular untouchable caste, and they play very well.
这是一个特殊的贱民阶层的工作，而且他们做得很好。
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
You did, of course, leave India, but what, for you, about India is most underrated?
当然，你确实离开了印度，但对你来说，印度最被低估的是什么？
Organic vegetables grown naturally and fruits grown naturally.
自然生长的有机蔬菜和自然生长的水果。
They’re all disappearing now.
他们现在都消失了。
The A Train—I don’t mean the song “Take the ‘A’ Train”—I mean the A Train.
A 列车——我指的不是“乘坐‘A’列车”这首歌——我指的是 A 列车。
It cuts through such an amazing swath of history of New York: Manhattan, Brooklyn, different social classes, different economic classes.
它贯穿了纽约令人惊叹的历史：曼哈顿、布鲁克林、不同的社会阶层、不同的经济阶层。
The A Train: overrated or underrated?
A列车：被高估还是被低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Underrated, I agree.
被低估了，我同意。
The Indian scheme of biometric identification?
印度生物识别方案？
That is a totally antipeople measure.
这完全是反人民的措施。
Tell us why.
告诉我们原因。
Because it’s like if somebody says, “Oh, this chair I’m sitting in is uncomfortable.” It’s like, “Oh, yeah, I’ll solve the problem and kick this chair out from under the person who’s sitting and complaining.”
因为这就好像有人说：“哦，我坐的这把椅子不舒服。”就像是，“哦，是的，我会解决问题，然后把坐着抱怨的人下面的椅子踢出去。”
People have very low literacy rates, and how are they able to do these things?
人们的识字率很低，他们怎么能做这些事情呢？
People are just dying because they have to have minimum balance in the bank, and they don’t know how to open bank accounts, and their money is taken away.
人们正在死去，因为他们必须在银行有最低余额，而且他们不知道如何开设银行账户，他们的钱被拿走了。
I’m sorry, I think I’m digressing, but this whole technology—
抱歉，我想我跑题了，但这整个技术——
No, digressing is fine.
不，离题也好。
This whole technology thing is under the thing of, ostensibly, it’s to streamline the system and to curb corruption and to bring everybody into the mainstream.
从表面上看，整个技术的目的是简化系统、遏制腐败、让每个人都融入主流。
That is nonsense.
那是无稽之谈。
Exploitation used to be giving people low wages, but now the exploitation is taking back what they already have.
过去剥削给人们带来低工资，但现在剥削正在夺回他们已经拥有的东西。
Let’s say I’m a technocrat.
假设我是一名技术官僚。
I look at Indian aid to the poor.
我关注印度对穷人的援助。
A lot of it is in kind, in the form of food.
其中很多都是实物，以食物的形式。
A high percentage of the food rots.
很大比例的食物腐烂。
And I say, “We’re going to scan everyone’s identity biometrically and just send them cash.” What will go wrong from doing that?
我说，“我们将通过生物识别技术扫描每个人的身份，然后给他们寄现金。”这样做会出现什么问题？
Give cash to people instead of—
给人们现金而不是——
To their bank accounts, electronically, rather than giving them in-kind food aid.
通过电子方式存入他们的银行账户，而不是向他们提供实物粮食援助。
Is that more efficient, or are you worried about the loss of privacy?
这样效率更高吗，还是担心隐私泄露？
Are you worried about some kind of autocratic control from having information, very exact, about everyone’s identity?
您是否担心因掌握有关每个人身份的非常准确的信息而受到某种专制控制？
Privacy and all this thing is a big concern, but the concern really is that all these measures are now .
隐私和所有这些事情是一个大问题，但真正令人担忧的是所有这些措施现在都是如此。
.
。
.
。
There was one measure, I think it’s called demonetization.
有一项措施，我认为那就是废钞。
They scrapped 500 rupee bills and 1,000 bills.
他们废除了 500 卢比纸币和 1,000 卢比纸币。
So all these small-time business people, tea vendors—just overnight, they lost all their money.
所以所有这些小商人、茶商——一夜之间，他们就赔光了所有的钱。
They keep their money in their houses.
他们把钱放在自己的房子里。
There’s a woman in our neighborhood.
我们邻居有一个女人。
She sold her house and she’s going to live on her money, and she kept all the money in $500 bills in the house.
她卖掉了房子，靠自己的钱生活，她把所有的钱都装成 500 美元的钞票放在房子里。
As soon as this thing was announced and she was told that “Your money is nothing but paper,” she died of heart attack.
这件事一公布，她被告知“你的钱只不过是纸而已”，她就因心脏病去世了。
It’s not an isolated incident.
这不是一个孤立的事件。
Hundreds of people died of this demonetization.
数百人因废钞而死亡。
So you’re critical of the current regime in India.
所以你对印度现政权持批评态度。
Yes.
是的。
They stripped the farmers of their lands and let them die.
他们剥夺了农民的土地并让他们死去。
So far, 450,000 farmers killed themselves, suicides.
迄今为止，已有45万农民自杀身亡。
Now, they turn their focus on small-business people, and now they’re pauperized.
现在，他们把注意力转向小企业主，现在他们变得赤贫了。
Williamsburg, Brooklyn: overrated or underrated?
布鲁克林威廉斯堡：被高估还是被低估？
Overrated.
被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
Because I don’t really identify with the crowd there.
因为我不太认同那里的人群。
I think hipsters is just in clothes and stuff, but not in attitude.
我认为潮人只是在衣服和东西上，而不是在态度上。
So they’re conformists, ultimately.
所以说到底，他们是墨守成规的人。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
What’s a special cherished, treasured part of New York for you that maybe not everyone knows about?
对于您来说，纽约有哪些特别珍贵、珍贵但可能不是每个人都知道的地方？
Where I live, Bay Ridge.
我住的地方，湾岭。
Bay Ridge?
湾岭？
Yes.
是的。
What makes that special?
是什么让它如此特别？
There are different kinds of immigrant groups, Arabs and Bangladeshis and Spanish people.
有不同种类的移民群体，阿拉伯人、孟加拉国人和西班牙人。
It used to be Greek and Irish, and now Indians.
过去是希腊人和爱尔兰人，现在是印度人。
It’s very safe place.
这是非常安全的地方。
We have restaurants from different parts of the world.
我们有来自世界各地的餐厅。
Everything is close by, things like that.
一切都在附近，诸如此类。
What is the hardest part about your job as an MTA conductor?
作为 MTA 售票员，您的工作中最困难的部分是什么？
The hardest part is you cannot take days off.
最困难的部分是你不能请假。
You have to apply 20 days before to get a day off.
您必须提前 20 天申请才能获得休息日。
There’s limited sick leave, presumably?
大概病假有限吧？
Yes, yeah.
是的，是的。
What’s the strangest use you’ve ever heard of or seen for a New York subway car?
您听说过或见过的纽约地铁车厢最奇怪的用途是什么？
Strangest use?
最奇怪的用途？
No, I can’t think of anything right now.
不，我现在什么也想不起来。
Is the L Line the best subway for getting to Brooklyn from Midtown?
L 线是从市中心前往布鲁克林的最佳地铁吗？
Uh-huh, yes.
嗯嗯，是的。
From where to Midtown?
从哪里到市中心？
The L Line, say Canarsie to 8th Avenue, would you take the L Line?
L 线，比如说从 Canarsie 到第八大道，你会乘坐 L 线吗？
Yes, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
It used to be called the LL Line when I was a kid.
当我还是个孩子的时候，它曾经被称为LL线。
I was shocked to learn it’s now the L Line.
当我得知现在是 L 线时，我感到很震惊。
I don’t know why they did that.
我不知道他们为什么这么做。
For me, that’s very confusing.
对我来说，这非常令人困惑。
But I don’t actually take the subway much at all.
但实际上我根本不怎么坐地铁。
On Modi and reforms in India
莫迪和印度改革
If you were to describe to us your take, what’s going on in India now?
如果您向我们描述一下您的看法，印度现在正在发生什么？
If I were to ask a neoliberal, they would say something like, “Well, Modi, he’s trying to be a reformer.
如果我问一个新自由主义者，他们会说，“嗯，莫迪，他想成为一名改革者。
Maybe he doesn’t have the will.
也许他没有这个意愿。
Maybe the special interest groups are interfering.
也许是特殊利益集团在干涉。
He’s not getting much reform done.
他没有进行太多改革。
Things are progressing in fits and starts.
事情正在断断续续地进展。
There’s no great wonderful turnaround, but India’s still growing.
没有什么伟大的转变，但印度仍在增长。
This is a country we should be positive about.”
这是一个我们应该持积极态度的国家。”
That would be a normal neoliberal take I would hear from a lot of people, say in the investment community.
这是我从投资界等很多人那里听到的一种正常的新自由主义观点。
But your overall take on where India is now and where it’s headed, how would you put your alternate version of what’s going on?
但你对印度现在的状况和未来发展方向的总体看法是，你会如何看待正在发生的事情的替代版本？
India, it’s not under Modi that these bad things are happening.
印度，这些糟糕的事情并不是在莫迪的领导下发生的。
They have been started by Congress, the so-called liberal party, which I would compare to probably the Democratic Party here.
它们是由国会，即所谓的自由党发起的，我可能会将其与这里的民主党进行比较。
They have started all these measures themselves in 1991 after the market liberalization.
所有这些措施都是他们在1991年市场自由化后自己开始实施的。
And Modi is shoving them down our throats.
莫迪正在把它们强加给我们。
Congress probably had some kind of hesitation in imposing these measures, but that’s why India, I guess, needed somebody like Modi, who can just terrorize people into accepting these things.
国会在实施这些措施时可能有些犹豫，但这就是为什么印度，我想，需要像莫迪这样的人，他可以恐吓人们接受这些事情。
In India, I don’t know for whom it’s developing, but for the majority of people, it’s going down.
在印度，我不知道它是为谁而发展，但对于大多数人来说，它正在下降。
I can say, from my point of view, there may be some Ambanis and Adanis that are profiting from it, but everybody else is losing.
我可以说，从我的角度来看，可能有一些安巴尼和阿达尼从中获利，但其他人都在损失。
If you think of the Bengali intellectual class from India, do you think of that itself as yet another caste creation, like a caste club?
如果你想到印度的孟加拉知识分子阶层，你是否认为它本身是另一个种姓创造，就像种姓俱乐部一样？
Yeah.
是的。
Bengali is like the renaissance of India.
孟加拉语就像印度的复兴。
They consider themselves culturally superior, like the French think of themselves in Europe, and they’re very proud about that.
他们认为自己在文化上是优越的，就像法国人对自己在欧洲的看法一样，他们对此感到非常自豪。
By the way, I think that the French are still lying on the laurels of French Revolution.
顺便说一句，我认为法国人仍然躺在法国大革命的功劳簿上。
It’s long gone and they have nothing else to show for it now.
它早已过去，他们现在没有什么可以展示的了。
If you think of the Indian Communist Party, would you consider that to also be, in some sense, fundamentally a caste creation?
如果你想到印度共产党，你会认为它在某种意义上也是种姓创造吗？
Yeah.
是的。
It’s not in the program of Communist Party to be casteist, but all these leaders, they came from Gandhi’s party, and all they wanted is for the nationalism to be militant.
共产党的纲领中没有种姓制度，但所有这些领导人都来自甘地的政党，他们想要的只是民族主义变得激进。
Gandhi says, “Don’t be violent,” and yet his idea is that we should get independence.
甘地说，“不要暴力”，但他的想法是我们应该获得独立。
Whereas Communists are like, “We want independence, but we’ll be breaking chairs and benches for getting it.” That’s the only difference.
而共产党人则说：“我们想要独立，但我们会为了获得独立而打破椅子和板凳。”这是唯一的区别。
There’s no programmatic difference.
没有程序上的差异。
These are the people who came from nationalist Indian Congress and joined the Communists.
这些人来自民族主义的印度国大党并加入了共产党。
They bring along with them their caste attitudes.
他们带着自己的种姓态度。
Why do you think the caste system has been and remains so strong in India compared to other countries?
您认为与其他国家相比，为什么印度的种姓制度一直如此强大？
What accounts for that?
这是什么原因？
What other countries have untouchability?
还有哪些国家是贱民？
I know that Japan and Yemen have it.
我知道日本和也门都有。
But groups that are a much smaller percentage of the population.
但这些群体占人口的比例要小得多。
If Dalits were about a sixth of India, even though there’s no census, it’s going to be a very large number of people.
如果达利特人约占印度的六分之一，即使没有人口普查，人数也将非常多。
As a country, it would be one of the larger countries in the world.
作为一个国家，它将是世界上较大的国家之一。
To have untouchability on such a scale persisting for so long—what is it about India that you think has led to that?
如此大规模的贱民现象持续了这么长时间——您认为印度的什么原因导致了这种情况？
I’m not a social scientist, but I can only guess from what I read.
我不是社会科学家，但我只能根据我读到的内容进行猜测。
I think that there’s some special geological, geographical, climatic conditions that necessitated for some caste system to be there, to division of labor because if land is .
我认为，有一些特殊的地质、地理、气候条件，需要某种种姓制度的存在，才能进行劳动分工，因为如果土地……。
.
。
.
。
Actually, there’s an example in Australia, when people went from England to colonize.
事实上，在澳大利亚就有一个例子，当时人们从英国去殖民。
People went there, and some people were taken as the servants there.
人们去了那里，也有人被收为那里的仆人。
Servants soon found land of their own, and they were no longer servants.
仆人们很快就找到了自己的土地，他们不再是仆人了。
That’s the case in India.
印度就是这种情况。
People had to be forced into a caste system.
人们不得不被迫接受种姓制度。
Some Indians have claimed to me that very often, the intermediate classes oppress the lower classes more than the Brahmins do.
一些印度人向我声称，中产阶级常常比婆罗门更压迫下层阶级。
Would you agree?
你同意吗？
Yeah, I do.
是的，我愿意。
There’s also a series of claims made, even within untouchability, that there are significant distinctions.
还有一系列的主张，即使在贱民阶层中，也存在显着的区别。
Many Indians will say, “Well, the Malas oppress the Madigas” and that’s as bad an oppression problem as the problems across caste.
许多印度人会说，“好吧，马拉人压迫马迪加人”，这是一个与种姓问题一样严重的压迫问题。
Would you agree with that?
你同意吗？
No, I don’t, because these divisions were created, but we were not aware.
不，我不知道，因为这些部门是被创建的，但我们并没有意识到。
There are caste divisions, but we all consider ourselves as untouchables.
虽然存在种姓差异，但我们都认为自己是贱民。
We didn’t think that we have to steal from them or deprive from them.
我们不认为我们必须从他们那里偷窃或剥夺他们。
Reservations is there to give chances for untouchables, but there’s so many things that undermine this.
预订是为贱民提供机会，但有很多事情破坏了这一点。
One of the things that they do is divide untouchables and make them fight over the common reserve seats.
他们所做的事情之一就是划分贱民，让他们争夺共同的保留席位。
On her family stories
关于她的家庭故事
Now, we’ve been talking a lot about some fairly general issues, but most of your book, actually, is a very particular tale, tale of your family, tale of your uncle, tale of your mother, tale of other relatives.
现在，我们已经谈论了很多相当普遍的问题，但实际上，你的书的大部分内容都是一个非常特殊的故事，你家人的故事，你叔叔的故事，你母亲的故事，其他亲戚的故事。
You appear in the story toward the end, as a young girl.
你在故事的最后以一个年轻女孩的身份出现。
Let me just ask you a few questions about that story.
让我问你几个关于这个故事的问题。
It’s not possible to recount the entire story here, but if you think back on your uncle, who’s a famous and very influential revolutionary, what is your most touching memory of your uncle that you have?
这里不可能讲述整个故事，但如果你回想一下你的叔叔，一位著名的、很有影响力的革命家，你对叔叔最感人的记忆是什么？
Actually, I didn’t see my uncle until just before I came here.
事实上，我直到来这里之前才见到叔叔。
I never saw him before.
我以前从未见过他。
Touching moment, I can’t say that but .
感人的时刻，我不能说，但是。
.
。
.
。
Because he was in hiding, right?
因为他躲起来了，对吗？
Yeah, he was in hiding.
是的，他躲起来了。
So you were uncovering, ex post, this long history of his, and you barely knew him.
所以你事后揭露了他的这段漫长的历史，而你却几乎不了解他。
Yeah.
是的。
Your most touching memory of your mother?
你对母亲最感人的记忆是？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
When I was arrested, she was very worried.
当我被捕时，她非常担心。
She said, “I wish I could take you back into my womb.”
她说：“我希望能把你带回我的子宫里。”
You have siblings, right?
你有兄弟姐妹，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Are they in India?
他们在印度吗？
Do they live here?
他们住在这里吗？
My sister lives here in Long Island.
我姐姐住在长岛。
She is a physician.
她是一名医生。
My brother is in Canada.
我弟弟在加拿大。
He’s a chemical engineer.
他是一名化学工程师。
He works as a technology consultant for oil companies.
他担任石油公司的技术顾问。
The children in your family, they’ve been very successful.
你家里的孩子们都很成功。
What is it in your upbringing that you would attribute that to, that there’s three of you doing great in different ways?
在你的成长过程中，你们三个人以不同的方式做得很好，你认为这归因于什么？
What’s the ultimate source of that success?
成功的最终源泉是什么？
I think that India provided narrow windows of opportunity for untouchables.
我认为印度为贱民提供了狭窄的机会之窗。
It’s like we were driving in a car and all the lights were turning green just in time.
这就像我们正在开车，所有的灯都及时变绿了。
The missionaries were one such opportunities.
传教士就是这样的机会之一。
They came in my great grandmother’s time, so she was able to get educated because of missionaries.
他们是在我曾祖母的时代出现的，所以她能够因为传教士而接受教育。
My parents’ generation, they got educated because it’s the whole fervor of just got independence; people are more liberal towards others.
我父母那一代，他们接受教育是因为他们对独立的热情。人们对其他人更加宽容。
In my generation, I had the benefit of two generations behind me in the tradition of education.
我这一代人，受益于我身后两代人的教育传统。
I like the story very much in the book where your mother is trying to feed you cornflakes and you’re rebelling.
我非常喜欢书中的这个故事：你的妈妈试图给你吃玉米片，而你却在反抗。
How did she bring you all up?
她是怎么把你们带大的？
What was her philosophy of parenting?
她的育儿理念是什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
She wanted us to go to school and get educated.
她希望我们去学校接受教育。
They’re against humanities.
他们反对人文学科。
They think that, if one day there will be a revolution, you are required to teach something else other than what is a fact, like in history.
他们认为，如果有一天会发生一场革命，你就需要教授一些不同于事实的东西，就像历史一样。
But if it’s science, it’s going to stay irrespective of what society you’re in.
但如果它是科学，那么无论你身处哪个社会，它都会存在。
As the years pass, do you view your own thought as becoming more radical or more conservative, and why?
随着时间的流逝，您认为自己的想法变得更加激进还是更加保守，为什么？
More radical, but I refrain from talking about Obama or feminism, Black Lives Matter.
更激进，但我不会谈论奥巴马或女权主义，“黑人的命也是命”。
There are certain things that I don’t want to talk about because they sound like conservative views, but I am radical.
有些事情我不想谈论，因为它们听起来像是保守的观点，但我很激进。
You think that what we here consider radical is actually conservative, and this is like a grand American illusion of some kind?
你认为我们在这里认为激进的东西实际上是保守的，这就像某种宏大的美国幻想？
I’m sorry, what was that?
抱歉，那是什么？
You said there were things you don’t want to talk about because you .
你说有些事情你不想谈论，因为你。
.
。
.
。
Yeah, because I will alienate people.
是的，因为我会疏远人们。
People read this book and they think that “Oh, she’s automatically going to be a feminist.
人们读了这本书，他们认为“哦，她自然会成为一名女权主义者。
She’s automatically going to be a supporter of Democratic Party, she’s automatically an admirer of Obama,” which I’m not.
她会自动成为民主党的支持者，她会自动成为奥巴马的崇拜者，”但我不是。
What is that .
那是什么。
.
。
.
。
?
？
And this will alienate people.
这会疏远人们。
That’s why I’m afraid of saying these things outside.
这就是为什么我害怕在外面说这些话。
On current American politics
论当前美国政治
If you think about these aspects in American society that you’re unhappy about, what would your critique consist of?
如果你想想美国社会有哪些你不满意的地方，你会批评什么？
If you don’t like Obama or you’re unhappy with some parts of feminism or Black Lives Matter, how would you articulate your critique?
如果你不喜欢奥巴马，或者你对女权主义或“黑人的命也是命”的某些部分不满意，你会如何表达你的批评？
The Democrats and the Republicans, by and large, they have the same interests.
总体而言，民主党和共和党有着相同的利益。
The Democrats act like they’re liberal.
民主党表现得好像他们是自由主义者。
They act like they are for women’s rights, they’re for gay rights and things like that, but on the whole, they are the same.
他们的表现就像是支持女权、同性恋权利等等，但总的来说，他们是一样的。
Obama here comes and he’s pretending to be such a great guy.
奥巴马来了，他假装自己是个很棒的人。
This guy wrote a book called We Were Eight Years in Power.
这个人写了一本书，名叫《我们掌权八年》。
Who is in power for eight years?
谁执政八年？
I don’t understand that.
我不明白。
All these policies that the Democrats have, those are the same things that Trump is doing.
民主党制定的所有这些政策，与特朗普正在做的事情是一样的。
Obamacare is his biggest thing.
奥巴马医改是他最重要的事情。
What is it?
它是什么？
Without preexisting condition insurance, apart from that, I don’t see any benefit from it.
除此之外，如果没有原有疾病保险，我看不到它有任何好处。
Final question before I let all of you ask questions.
在我让大家提问之前，我要问最后一个问题。
After all the years now you’ve lived here, are you optimistic about this country?
您在这里生活了这么多年，您对这个国家乐观吗？
If so, why or why not?
如果是这样，为什么或为什么不呢？
When Trump came to power, people were all saying that, “Oh, my God, we are doomed,” and stuff like that.
当特朗普上台时，人们都在说，“哦，天哪，我们注定要失败”之类的话。
I thought maybe it’s a chance for people to really see what’s going on here and no longer be silent about things.
我想也许这是一个让人们真正了解这里正在发生的事情并不再保持沉默的机会。
I was optimistic about that in that sense.
从这个意义上说，我对此持乐观态度。
I think that, yeah, things can happen to make this country better.
我认为，是的，事情可以让这个国家变得更好。
Sujatha, thank you very much.
苏嘉塔，非常感谢你。
I’m a huge fan of you and your book.
我是你和你的书的超级粉丝。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Q&A
问答
If you, as a thought experiment, were the prime minister of India or had a large political influence all over India, what is it that you would do to fight the caste system or to fight against segregation?
作为一个思想实验，如果你是印度总理或者在整个印度有很大的政治影响力，你会做什么来对抗种姓制度或反对种族隔离？
Governments, they preside over certain society.
政府，他们主持一定的社会。
Even if I become the prime minister of India, I can’t do anything about caste system, being in a government that rules the same kind of society.
即使我成为印度总理，我对种姓制度也无能为力，在一个统治同样社会的政府里。
The society has to be changed, not the government.
需要改变的是社会，而不是政府。
Yes, Kate?
是的，凯特？
Have you been to Washington, DC?
您去过华盛顿特区吗？
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
Would you like to go to Washington, DC?
您想去华盛顿特区吗？
Yeah, I suppose, yeah.
是的，我想，是的。
We’d be happy to host you if you ever come down.
如果您来的话，我们很乐意接待您。
OK.
好的。
Yes?
是的？
I suppose just as a follow-up to the question of if it isn’t a government that can change the society, what would you do if you had a societal influence?
我想，作为“如果政府不能改变社会”这个问题的后续问题，如果你有社会影响力，你会怎么做？
Do you think it’s through charitable organizations or education or .
你认为这是通过慈善组织或教育还是......
.
。
.
。
Charitable organization and education, they’re all within the same framework.
慈善组织和教育，它们都在同一个框架内。
I would have to say things that I may be hesitant to say, but the social structure has to be basically smashed and rebuilt on a collectivized basis.
我不得不说一些我可能犹豫不决的话，但社会结构必须基本上被打破并在集体化的基础上重建。
Everything should be run on .
一切都应该运行在 .
.
。
.
。
Agriculture should be collectivized.
农业应该集体化。
Industry should be under the state.
工业应该属于国家。
Foreign policy should be a monopoly of the state.
外交政策应该由国家垄断。
When people ask you where you’re from, how do you respond to that question?
当人们问你来自哪里时，你如何回答这个问题？
If foreigners ask me, I will say I’m from India.
如果外国人问我，我会说我来自印度。
But if Indians ask me, I have to say which state and what caste.
但如果印度人问我，我必须说是哪个邦、什么种姓。
Would an Indian you would meet, say, in Manhattan, would that person know right away that you’re an untouchable?
你会在曼哈顿遇到一个印度人，他会立即知道你是一个贱民吗？
One thing is that most of the Christians except Syrian Christians and some Catholic Christians in Goa, Christians are untouchables, so immediately, the lack of forehead dot tells them that I’m an untouchable.
有一件事是，除了叙利亚基督徒和果阿的一些天主教徒之外，大多数基督徒都是贱民，所以额头上没有圆点立刻就告诉他们我是贱民。
Also, there’s a study.
另外，还有一项研究。
Indians are genetically same, but apparently, you could tell when the endogamy began.
印度人的基因是相同的，但显然，你可以看出同族通婚何时开始。
It’s 1,500 years ago people are different.
一千五百年前，人们已经不同了。
There is some extra genetic thing that we inherit from castes.
我们从种姓继承了一些额外的基因。
I think that people’s body language can easily tell which caste you are.
我认为人们的肢体语言可以很容易地看出你属于哪个种姓。
When I came here, people would always constantly ask me, if I’m walking on the street like, “Why are you sad?
当我来到这里时，人们总是会不断地问我，如果我走在街上，就像“你为什么悲伤？
Smile.
微笑。
Life is not that bad.” Things like that.
生活并没有那么糟糕。”诸如此类的事情。
I didn’t think that I was sad, but everybody was saying that, and other people used to say, “Why are you so anxious?
我不认为我很伤心，但每个人都这么说，其他人常常说：“你为什么这么焦虑？
Just calm down.”
冷静点。”
As far as untouchables are concerned and Brahmins are concerned, you can tell from the body language itself who you are.
对于贱民和婆罗门来说，你可以从肢体语言本身看出你是谁。
There’s a Russian philosophy that if you walk around smiling, you must be a fool.
俄罗斯有一种哲学，如果你微笑着走来走去，你一定是个傻瓜。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Yes?
是的？
I’m wondering if you think that your perception of caste system might be affected by which cast you’re from.
我想知道你是否认为你对种姓制度的看法可能会受到你来自哪个种姓的影响。
Like, if you’re Brahmin, maybe you don’t feel the effects of the system that much and would not be .
就像，如果你是婆罗门，也许你不会感受到系统的影响那么大，也不会。
.
。
.
。
Yeah, that’s true.
是的，确实如此。
Brahmins like the caste system.
婆罗门喜欢种姓制度。
This guy on your blog was saying casteism is very good and probably they should adopt it for American society.
你博客上的这个人说种姓制度非常好，也许他们应该在美国社会中采用它。
Wasn’t he saying that?
他不是这么说的吗？
I think he was implying it at least.
我想他至少是在暗示这一点。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Yes?
是的？
So you don’t think very highly of Obama.
所以你对奥巴马的评价不太高。
Are there any American politicians who you admire or at least think are doing something useful?
有没有你钦佩的美国政客或者至少认为他们正在做一些有用的事情？
No.
不。
If you had in the room an American who had never been to India, but was planning a trip to India just to learn, discover, also enjoy, what advice would you give them for how they should do that trip?
如果你的房间里有一个从未去过印度的美国人，但计划去印度旅行只是为了学习、发现和享受，你会给他们什么建议来指导他们如何进行这次旅行？
I can go with the mundane things .
我可以处理平凡的事情。
.
。
.
。
don’t eat anything that’s not cooked.
不要吃任何未煮熟的东西。
Don’t drink—
不要喝酒——
Intellectual advice for understanding it or what they should try to experience or where they should go or what they should see.
理解它或他们应该尝试体验什么或他们应该去哪里或他们应该看到什么的智力建议。
Depends on the person’s interest, right?
主要看个人兴趣吧？
People who really want to see what 80 percent of India is like, they should go to the villages.
真正想看看印度百分之八十是什么样子的人，应该去村庄。
If people want to see the beauty of India and nature and all that kind of stuff, they should go to Kerala.
如果人们想看到印度和自然之美以及诸如此类的东西，他们应该去喀拉拉邦。
If people want to see the splendor of the rajas, they should go to Jaipur.
如果人们想看到拉惹的辉煌，他们应该去斋浦尔。
If they want to see the squalor and all that stuff, they should go to Kolkata to see.
如果他们想看到肮脏和所有这些东西，他们应该去加尔各答看看。
Banaras is like the Mecca of India because it’s on the banks of Ganges.
贝拿勒斯就像印度的麦加，因为它位于恒河岸边。
You can look at it in two different ways.
您可以用两种不同的方式来看待它。
Brahmins will have such ecstatic experience when they go there, but at the same time, other people go there, they will see the filth and how polluted the river is.
婆罗门去那里时会有如此欣喜若狂的体验，但同时，其他人去那里时，他们会看到河流的肮脏和污染程度。
That’s there.
就在那里。
And Goa is a place for beaches and fun and drugs and things like that.
果阿是一个充满海滩、娱乐、毒品之类的地方。
What country do you think is doing things to your most ideal state right now?
您认为现在哪个国家的做法正在达到您最理想的状态？
I’m not a supporter of the regime in China or in Cuba, but from all developmental indexes, they’re doing well.
我不是中国或古巴政权的支持者，但从所有发展指标来看，他们都做得很好。
There is more literacy in China and more literacy in Cuba and less infant mortalities, better.
中国的识字率更高，古巴的识字率更高，婴儿死亡率更低，效果更好。
Even women’s equality’s better.
甚至女性的平等也更好。
I know it’s not perfect, but they’re better in these two countries.
我知道这并不完美，但这两个国家的情况更好。
I don’t know much about North Korea.
我对朝鲜了解不多。
You mentioned that you are not a feminist.
你提到你不是女权主义者。
What are your differences .
你们有什么不同。
.
。
.
。
I mean feminists basically look at the world as divided between men and women, and I don’t think that.
我的意思是，女权主义者基本上认为世界分为男性和女性，但我不这么认为。
Feminists lately have become such a force for backwardness in a sense.
从某种意义上说，女权主义者最近已成为一种落后的力量。
Like, for example, the burka and the Muslim women in Europe, they want to rip the burka off because burka is a symbol of men’s oppression.
例如，就像欧洲的罩袍和穆斯林妇女一样，她们想撕掉罩袍，因为罩袍是男性压迫的象征。
But they don’t see you can’t just do like that.
但他们不认为你不能那样做。
The point is you give the choice to the people to wear the burka or not wear the burka, but not like you forcibly take the burka off.
关键是你让人们选择穿或不穿罩袍，但不像你强行脱掉罩袍。
That’s one of the feminist things that I don’t like.
这是我不喜欢的女权主义事物之一。
And then this Nordic model that they have in Sweden and they’re appropriating it in Germany.
然后他们在瑞典采用了北欧模式，并在德国采用了它。
When you say Nordic model, what do you mean?
当你说北欧模式时，你指的是什么？
The prostitution—they are now arresting the people who seek prostitutes.
卖淫——他们现在正在逮捕嫖客。
The male customers.
男性顾客。
That I think is draconian.
我认为这是严厉的。
Not all prostitutes are forced into it.
并不是所有的妓女都是被迫的。
What do men do if they don’t have any partner?
如果男人没有伴侣怎么办？
It’s livelihood for many women.
这是许多女性的生计。
I think that in the guise of feminism, people are really putting restrictions on individual liberty.
我认为，人们打着女权主义的幌子，实际上是在限制个人自由。
Yes, in the back.
是的，在后面。
What can America learn from India in terms of how some of these social problems India has dealt with that you mentioned and problems that we’re dealing with now in America?
就印度如何处理你提到的一些社会问题以及我们现在在美国正在处理的问题而言，美国可以向印度学习什么？
Not much.
不多。
I think India is one of the countries where communism is still a popular thing, not something that people will shirk from, but Indian communism is not that great.
我认为印度是共产主义仍然流行的国家之一，人们不会回避它，但印度的共产主义并没有那么伟大。
So from that point of view, there is nothing to learn from.
所以从这个角度来说，没有什么可以借鉴的。
Modi and Trump are seen as birds of the same feather.
莫迪和特朗普被视为志同道合。
If they want to learn how to do bad things, they can learn from each other.
如果他们想学习如何做坏事，他们可以互相学习。
Yes.
是的。
What is your opinion of Mother Teresa?
您对特蕾莎修女有何看法？
The whole Christian missionary thing, it is part of white man’s burden, a prop for colonization.
整个基督教传教士的事情，它是白人负担的一部分，是殖民化的支柱。
The white people who join those missionaries—not all of them are aware that we’re going there to get people’s support for our colonizers.
加入这些传教士行列的白人——并非所有人都知道我们去那里是为了获得人们对我们殖民者的支持。
There are people who are sincerely there to help people.
有人真诚地帮助别人。
Mother Teresa—I don’t know what her grand scheme was, but she really did a lot of good things in India.
特蕾莎修女——我不知道她的宏伟计划是什么，但她确实在印度做了很多好事。
She’s now a big target for Hindutva people.
她现在是印度教徒的一大目标。
They say that she’s an agent of imperialism, agent of colonialism.
他们说她是帝国主义的代理人、殖民主义的代理人。
She’s someone who’s spoiling Indian culture, trying to convert people into Christianity.
她是一个破坏印度文化、试图让人们皈依基督教的人。
She’s a devil, and she doesn’t deserve to be canonized and things like that.
她是一个魔鬼，她不值得被封圣之类的。
Mother Teresa is a big target for Hindutva people.
特蕾莎修女是印度教徒的一大目标。
She did good things for us.
她为我们做了好事。
She may have some other ideas, but they are not perceived by us.
她可能还有一些其他的想法，但我们没有意识到。
What we perceived is, she did a lot of good things.
我们看到的是，她做了很多好事。
Next question, yes.
下一个问题，是的。
You mentioned that one of the things that led you and your family to successfully move out of where your caste was trying to place you was education.
您提到，导致您和您的家人成功离开您的种姓试图安置您的地方的原因之一是教育。
What role do you think education has in refiguring the social system, the caste system, on a larger scale?
您认为教育在更大规模地重塑社会制度、种姓制度方面发挥什么作用？
Or is it a thing that could only be possible for a few people?
还是只有少数人才能做到的事情？
Ambedkar’s slogan is “Educate, organize, and agitate.” This is a big thing for untouchables.
安贝德卡的口号是“教育、组织和鼓动”。这对于贱民来说是一件大事。
They think that their emancipation lies in getting educated.
他们认为他们的解放在于接受教育。
It may be true, but after education, they’re not getting jobs.
这可能是真的，但受过教育后，他们找不到工作。
What can they do with education if there are no jobs?
如果没有工作，他们能用教育做什么？
A question over here.
这里有一个问题。
Do you see caste in the Indian film industry at all?
您在印度电影业中看到过种姓制度吗？
Do you see any films being made that talk about these issues?
您是否看过任何谈论这些问题的电影？
In the beginning—when we were all filled with the fervor of Indians are all equal brothers, sisters—at that time, there were a lot of movies talking about caste system, where the hero who’s a Brahmin marries an untouchable woman, and things like that.
一开始，当我们都充满印度人都是平等的兄弟姐妹的热情时，当时有很多电影讲种姓制度，婆罗门的英雄娶了贱民的女人等等。
The politics and society has changed now.
现在政治和社会已经发生了变化。
They no longer talk about social issues anymore.
他们不再谈论社会问题。
There used to be films about dowry system.
以前有一些关于嫁妆制度的电影。
There used to be films about laborers.
曾经有一些关于劳工的电影。
There used to be films about untouchability.
曾经有一些关于贱民的电影。
Now, it’s not that.
现在，事实并非如此。
Actually, the film Bahubali, which probably you heard of, it’s like highest-grossing Indian film.
事实上，你可能听说过《巴霍巴利王》这部电影，它就像是印度票房最高的电影。
It’s through and through caste film.
这是一部彻头彻尾的种姓电影。
It talks as if, like they say that there are certain people born to rule and certain people who are born to be ruled.
它说得好像，就像他们说的那样，有些人天生就是统治者，有些人天生就是被统治者。
It’s just outright casteist film.
这只是彻头彻尾的种姓电影。
Are there major Bollywood actors and actresses who are Dalits?
宝莱坞的主要演员中有达利特人吗？
No.
不。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Yes.
是的。
I have a question.
我有一个问题。
Do your family members share your political views at this point, your family who are in the United States and Canada?
您在美国和加拿大的家人目前是否同意您的政治观点？
Actually, the only relation I have with my family members is political views.
事实上，我和家人之间唯一的关系就是政治观点。
If we have to connect on familial links, we will always be fighting and killing each other.
如果我们必须通过家庭联系来联系，我们将永远互相争斗、互相残杀。
All that we talk about with my mother is politics and untouchability and caste and Modi and things like that.
我们和我母亲谈论的都是政治、贱民、种姓、莫迪等等。
It’s the same thing with my sister also.
我姐姐也有同样的情况。
This is where we connect.
这是我们联系的地方。
Otherwise, we are like enemies.
否则，我们就像敌人一样。
My brother, we’re completely alienated from each other, firstly because he goes to church now.
我的兄弟，我们彼此完全疏远了，首先是因为他现在去教堂了。
We never used to go to church before.
我们以前从不去教堂。
He’s into this Iacocca.
他很喜欢这个艾科卡。
Is there a name .
有名字吗。
.
。
.
。
?
？
Iacocca?
艾柯卡？
Yeah.
是的。
Lee Iacocca?
李·艾科卡？
Yeah.
是的。
The former Chrysler chairman?
克莱斯勒前董事长？
Yeah.
是的。
He reads that kind of books.
他读那种书。
Management books.
管理书籍。
He’s into that kind of stuff.
他对这类事情很感兴趣。
You don’t?
你不知道吗？
No.
不。
He read Freakonomics and he liked it.
他读了《魔鬼经济学》并且很喜欢它。
I don’t relate to that stuff.
我与那些东西无关。
What would you say is the book in fiction that’s influenced you most?
您认为对您影响最大的小说是哪本书？
I liked certain books like Independent People by Halldor Laxness.
我喜欢某些书，比如 Halldor Laxness 的《Independent People》。
He’s an Icelandic writer.
他是一位冰岛作家。
I liked that book a lot.
我非常喜欢那本书。
It’s a really huge book.
这是一本非常大的书。
I think that they categorize it as social realism.
我认为他们将其归类为社会现实主义。
I liked it a lot.
我非常喜欢它。
Then, as for nonfiction, I read this book, Hindoo Holiday by J.
然后，至于非小说类作品，我读了 J. 的《Hindoo Holiday》这本书。
R.
R。
Ackerley.
阿克利.
He went to India in 1920s and spent some time there.
1920年代他去了印度并在那里呆了一段时间。
That’s really hilarious and well-written book.
这真的是一本很搞笑而且写得很好的书。
I liked that.
我喜欢那个。
As for comedy, there is Amanda Filipacchi.
至于喜剧，还有阿曼达·菲利帕奇。
She wrote a book called Love Creeps.
她写了一本书，名叫《爱的蠕动》。
It’s really, really hilarious book where the protagonist, a woman.
这是一本非常非常搞笑的书，主角是一个女人。
She has everything that she wants, and now she desires desiring.
她已经拥有了她想要的一切，现在她渴望渴望。
Because there’s nothing else to desire for her, she’s depressed now.
因为她没有别的欲望，所以她现在很沮丧。
She goes around looking for things that she can desire and not get.
她到处寻找她想要却得不到的东西。
That was a funny book.
那是一本有趣的书。
I liked it.
我喜欢它。
Then, what else did I like?
那么，我还喜欢什么呢？
Chester Himes is a black writer.
切斯特·希姆斯是一位黑人作家。
Oh sure, yes.
哦，当然，是的。
He wrote black detectives, and that stuff is funny.
他写过黑人侦探，那东西很有趣。
Actually, I’m reading one right now, Blind Man with a Pistol.
事实上，我现在正在读一本，《持手枪的盲人》。
I don’t know, a lot of books I like.
我不知道，我喜欢的书很多。
Ferrante, I couldn’t finish that book.
费兰特，我没能读完那本书。
Elena Ferrante, yeah.
埃琳娜·费兰特，是的。
Somebody else’s, like her book is supposed to be fictional realism.
其他人的书，比如她的书，应该是虚构的现实主义。
I don’t really know what magical realism, social realism, fictional realism is.
我真的不知道什么是魔幻现实主义、社会现实主义、虚构现实主义。
If everything has to be categorized in this sense, I’ll call my book “real realism.”
如果一切都必须从这个意义上进行分类，我会把我的书称为“真正的现实主义”。
For the future, is there anything you could tell us about what you’re thinking or what you’re planning in terms of further writing or expressing your ideas more?
对于未来，您能告诉我们您在进一步写作或更多表达您的想法方面的想法或计划吗？
People with my kind of views, they don’t get published in New York Times and things like that.
持我这种观点的人不会在《纽约时报》之类的刊物上发表。
That’s out for me.
这对我来说是不可能的。
I don’t like writing fiction.
我不喜欢写小说。
I like writing nonfiction but only the kind of issues that I have, which involves enthusiastic storytellers like my family and centered around an issue—for example, the farmers’ suicide in India.
我喜欢写非小说类作品，但只写我所遇到的问题，其中涉及像我的家人这样热心讲故事的人，并围绕一个问题——例如印度农民的自杀。
If we get some storytellers like that who are involved with that issue, then I’d like to write.
如果我们有一些像这样的讲故事的人参与这个问题，那么我想写。
Otherwise, I don’t see any point to write.
不然我觉得没有什么可写的。
Do you think there’ll ever be a time where you write about life in the United States?
你认为有一天你会写在美国的生活吗？
Maybe, yeah.
也许，是的。
Possible.
可能的。
Time for one more question.
是时候再问一个问题了。
Yes?
是的？
Have you traveled much in other countries and do you have thoughts about life there?
您去过其他国家很多次吗？您对那里的生活有什么想法吗？
I went to Mexico, to a place called Puerto Vallarta.
我去了墨西哥，一个叫巴亚尔塔港的地方。
Actually, a friend had a medical conference; I tagged along and they were having this huge conference.
事实上，一位朋友参加了一次医学会议；我跟着他们，他们正在召开一场大型会议。
I was sitting in the middle and typing away, writing my book.
我坐在中间打字，写我的书。
I went to Mexico; I didn’t see much of it.
我去了墨西哥；我没看到太多。
It’s a beach place.
这是一个海滩地方。
Recently, I went to Czech Republic.
最近，我去了捷克共和国。
People are really not that very interesting to talk to and interact with.
与人交谈和互动确实不是那么有趣。
For them, Americans are really a huge deal.
对于他们来说，美国人确实是一件大事。
It’s like some movie stars.
就像某些电影明星一样。
People are still missing things from the socialist days, how things were better.
人们仍然怀念社会主义时代的东西，怀念过去的美好时光。
I think that beggars there, it’s a new thing for people to beg, so they don’t really know how to beg.
我觉得那里的乞丐，乞讨对人们来说是新鲜事物，所以他们并不知道如何乞讨。
They just supplicate entirely on the ground.
他们只是完全在地面上祈求。
They don’t look up.
他们没有抬头。
They just do like this.
他们就是这么做的。
I found it very strange.
我觉得很奇怪。
I went to Barcelona also.
我也去了巴塞罗那。
What did you think of that?
你对此有何看法？
It’s good.
很好。
It’s good, yeah.
很好，是的。
On that note, Sujatha Gidla, thank you very much.
关于这一点，Sujatha Gidla，非常感谢你。