Stewart Brand on Starting Things and Staying Curious (Ep. 142)

I was younger than 10 by then, so I had nightmares about wandering around in a destroyed Rockford, where I was the only person left alive.

那时我还不到 10 岁，所以我经常做噩梦，梦见自己在被毁坏的罗克福德闲逛，而我是那里唯一活着的人。

I had a certain built-in apprehension, and among things that led to, as you may remember — I think you’re old enough to remember — when the mushroom cloud of the atomic explosion was this sort of symbol of human civilization at that point.

我有一种内在的忧虑，正如你可能还记得的那样——“我想你已经足够大了，可以记得”——当时原子爆炸的蘑菇云是人类文明的象征。

That was the way global everything thought about itself as the threat of nuclear annihilation.

这就是全球一切事物将自身视为核毁灭威胁的方式。

The photograph of the Earth from space that came along in ’68 and ’69–’70, from the Apollo program, completely replaced that nuclear cloud with an image of a very hopeful-looking Earth.

68 年和 69-70 年阿波罗计划拍摄的太空地球照片完全用一张充满希望的地球图像取代了核云。

It’s interesting because I realize now, the Earth is being deployed .

这很有趣，因为我现在意识到，地球正在被部署。

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that photograph, which was so hopeful and green and better than the mushroom cloud, is now evoked a lot in the context of climate change.

这张照片如此充满希望、如此绿色、比蘑菇云更好，现在在气候变化的背景下经常被唤起。

Once again, it’s an image of a threat rather than of promise.

再一次，这是一个威胁而不是承诺的形象。

This was before we had Moore’s law, but I had a sense of a self-enhancing process that was going to not just change everything once, but change it many times.

那是在摩尔定律出现之前，但我有一种自我增强的过程的感觉，它不仅会改变一切一次，而且会改变很多次。

That’s what exponentials do.

这就是指数的作用。

They keep going.

他们继续前进。

I sort of rode that wave of an engineering understanding of civilization that I have to this day.

直到今天，我还是顺应了对文明的工程学理解的潮流。

On becoming a decentralist

成为去中心化主义者

My first calling was as a professional photographer that then turned into a so-called creative photographer doing art.

我的第一个使命是成为一名专业摄影师，然后成为一名从事艺术创作的所谓创意摄影师。

I was doing multimedia with a group called USCO in New York and, basically, took on the role as an artist in the world.

我在纽约与一个名为 USCO 的团体一起做多媒体工作，基本上，我在世界上扮演了艺术家的角色。

That stuck, and so my media would change a lot.

这个问题卡住了，所以我的媒体会发生很大的变化。

I would start nonprofits and sometimes businesses and various things, but it was always not part of a hierarchical organization, and not trying to build a hierarchical organization.

我会创办非营利组织，有时会创办​​企业和各种事物，但它始终不是等级组织的一部分，也不是试图建立等级组织。

It was basically enhancing creativity at the individual level.

它基本上是在个人层面上增强创造力。

With the Whole Earth Catalog, that led to a kind of lazy libertarianism that I later got over when I worked for Governor Brown of the State of California.

《全球概览》导致了一种懒惰的自由主义，后来我在为加利福尼亚州州长布朗工作时克服了这种懒惰。

Remember also, as a biologist, Darwinian evolution is the most decentralized thing that you can imagine.

还要记住，作为一名生物学家，达尔文进化论是你能想象到的最分散的事物。

It’s way beyond the market economy.

这已经远远超出了市场经济的范围。

It is something that runs itself and is self-organizing at every level and at every scale.

它是一种自我运行、在各个层面和各个规模上自我组织的东西。

I haven’t answered that question before, so answering it this time, I think I’ve talked myself into being a Darwinian.

我以前没有回答过这个问题，所以这次回答这个问题，我想我已经说服自己成为达尔文主义者了。

All of that has a grounded continuity.

所有这一切都具有扎实的连续性。

I was one of the three-guns Midwesterners, where I started with a BB gun, and then got a pellet rifle, and then a .22, and then a more serious rifle.

我是三枪中西部人之一，一开始我用的是 BB 枪，然后是子弹步枪，然后是 0.22，然后是更严肃的步枪。

Hunting and fishing were part of the world I was in.

狩猎和钓鱼是我所处世界的一部分。

I didn’t do much of either one, but that was who we were.

这两件事我都没有做太多，但这就是我们。

You wanted to be a good outdoorsman.

你想成为一名优秀的户外运动者。

Then also, he was in a movie called Broken Arrow, which was the first movie that was liberal about American Indians.

此外，他还出演了一部名为《断箭》的电影，这是第一部关于美洲印第安人的自由主义电影。

It was really, really well written, well researched on Chiricahua Apache culture.

这本书写得非常非常好，对奇里卡瓦阿帕奇文化进行了深入研究。

James Stewart there is the guy who connects with Indians.

詹姆斯·斯图尔特是一个与印第安人有联系的人。

And when I later married an Indian woman, Lois Jennings, we used to play scenes from that where she’s watching him shaving and wondering what the hell he’s doing because Indians don’t shave.

当我后来与一位印度女人路易斯·詹宁斯结婚时，我们经常播放其中的场景，她看着他刮胡子，想知道他到底在做什么，因为印度人不刮胡子。

We just played that stuff out.

我们只是玩了这些东西。

James Stewart was a handy character to identify with for me.

詹姆斯·斯图尔特对我来说是一个很容易认同的角色。

Rather different cowboys than the ones I’d seen.

与我见过的牛仔截然不同。

The White cowboys tended to be very ferociously individualistic and competitive.

白人牛仔往往具有非常强烈的个人主义和竞争性。

The Indian cowboys I saw were much, much more collaborative.

我看到的印度牛仔更加协作。

There was a gentleness, a constant humor, a welcome to people like me.

这里有一种温柔，一种持续的幽默，对像我这样的人表示欢迎。

When I started hanging out, I was inspired by that experience to visit a lot of reservations and just hang out with Indians.

当我开始出去玩时，我受到了那次经历的启发，参观了很多保留地并与印度人一起出去玩。

I eventually did a multimedia show called America Needs Indians.

我最终做了一个名为“美国需要印第安人”的多媒体节目。

That turned out to become a point of reference for the hippie subculture.

事实证明，这成为嬉皮士亚文化的参考点。

It was basically one subculture paying attention to another subculture for inspiration and a sense of identity.

这基本上是一种亚文化关注另一种亚文化以寻求灵感和认同感。

The long-hair convergence, as it was called, was a way for the older Indians — the long-haired gentlemen — and the younger Indians who were trying to decide who to be — because they had a lot of choices — realizing that the continuity of their native culture was a really valuable thing, not something to feel bad about or to flee from.

所谓的长发融合，对于年长的印度人——“长发绅士”——和那些试图决定自己是谁的年轻印度人来说——“因为他们有很多选择”——来说是一种方式，他们意识到本土文化的连续性是一件非常有价值的事情，而不是一件值得感到难过或逃避的事情。

And that’s played out very well.

效果非常好。

Indians are in way better shape now than they were when I first started paying attention, or when Marlon did before I got to know Marlon.

印度人现在的状态比我刚开始关注时或我认识马龙之前的马龙时要好得多。

He was basically at every place that I went to before I was, hanging out with the fish-in Indians in Washington, with the revolutionary Indians in Oklahoma.

他基本上出现在我之前去过的每个地方，与华盛顿的捕鱼印第安人一起闲逛，与俄克拉荷马州的革命印第安人一起闲逛。

He was regarded with affection and respect by the Indians that I met.

我遇到的印第安人都对他充满感情和尊重。

On disagreements with peers

关于与同事的分歧

When I came across Gregory Bateson, he was sort of the corrective for Buckminster Fuller for me, because Fuller was so totally an engineer, what Bateson would call the input-output approach to understanding and solving everything.

当我遇到格雷戈里·贝特森时，他对我来说有点像巴克敏斯特·富勒的纠正，因为富勒完全是一名工程师，贝特森称之为理解和解决一切问题的输入输出方法。

Whereas Bateson was much more.

而贝特森的意义远不止于此。

He was aware that every system is basically self-referential to some degree — that’s the thing Fuller would never take on — and hierarchically organized at a very deep conceptual level, that we are always immersed in the system that we think we were isolating something from.

他意识到，每个系统在某种程度上基本上都是自我参照的——“这是富勒永远不会承担的事情”——并且在非常深的概念层面上进行分层组织，我们总是沉浸在我们认为从中孤立的系统中。

Gregory was wonderfully dubious about engineering solutions, about naive intention, and went a little farther in the mystical direction for me, so there were later cracks for that for me.

格雷戈里对工程解决方案和天真的意图非常怀疑，并且对我来说在神秘的方向上走得更远，所以后来对我来说出现了裂缝。

Besides, I’d gone a mystical route back when I studied comparative religion at Stanford, and that turned out to be eventually nonproductive and, I think, counterproductive.

此外，当我在斯坦福大学研究比较宗教时，我走了一条神秘的道路，结果最终证明是没有成效的，而且我认为，适得其反。

Often people go down a mystical or romantic route.

人们常常走上一条神秘或浪漫的路线。

But that was all stuff that was working through, and I got to know Fuller.

但这就是所有正在解决的事情，我开始了解富勒。

I got to know Gregory Bateson very well.

我非常了解格雷戈里·贝特森。

I never met Wiener, but I hung out later with people like Marvin Minsky, another part of the MIT intelligentsia who are really still my frame of reference.

我从未见过维纳，但后来我和像马文·明斯基这样的人一起出去玩，他是麻省理工学院知识分子的另一部分，他们仍然是我的参照系。

Then there’s the so-called Blue Marble, where the photograph is taken with the sun behind the spaceship, behind the camera.

然后是所谓的蓝色大理石，照片是在太阳位于宇宙飞船后面、相机后面拍摄的。

You see there’s no crescent; there’s no gibbous Earth.

你看没有新月；不存在凸凸地球。

It’s just a big round Earth like people expect, which of course is the rarest photograph you can take.

正如人们所期望的那样，这只是一个巨大的圆形地球，这当然是你能拍到的最稀有的照片。

You have to be right in line with the sun to get that image.

您必须与太阳保持一致才能获得该图像。

There were thousands of other photographs of Earth.

还有数千张其他地球照片。

Soviets took some; we took countless ones.

苏联人拿走了一些；我们拿了无数的。

Eventually I found their drawer at NASA Headquarters in Washington, where they all are.

最终我在华盛顿美国宇航局总部找到了它们的抽屉，它们都在那里。

I just paged through and picked out these amazing images and started using them in later Whole Earth Catalogs.

我只是翻阅并挑选出这些令人惊叹的图像，并开始在后来的《全球概览》中使用它们。

I think one of the best things that’s happened in this last century is that outside-the-planet perspective, and every astronaut comes back with stories of how amazing it was, even though they’re trained for and prepared for being amazed.

我认为上个世纪发生的最好的事情之一就是从地球之外的角度来看，每一位宇航员回来后都会讲述这是多么令人惊奇的故事，尽管他们接受过训练并准备好感到惊讶。

They are then really amazed by getting out there.

他们对走出去感到非常惊讶。

The photograph is just a glimpse of how powerful it is to be off-planet and see the planet as a whole.

这张照片只是让我们看到了离开地球并看到整个地球的力量有多么强大。

That, I think, will continue as we explore the rest of the solar system, mostly with robots, sometimes with humans.

我认为，当我们探索太阳系的其余部分时，这种情况将继续下去，主要是用机器人，有时是人类。

Lately, I don’t think we’re going to the stars, Tyler.

最近，我认为我们不会去星星，泰勒。

Later in life, I got to know an astronaut named Rusty Schweickart.

后来，我认识了一位名叫拉斯蒂·施韦卡特（Rusty Schweickart）的宇航员。

We went to see the movie The Right Stuff.

我们去看了电影《The Right Stuff》。

My mother and Rusty, this astronaut, went to that movie together.

我的母亲和这位宇航员拉斯蒂一起去看了那部电影。

That was a real connection for her to the dream.

这对她来说是与梦想的真正联系。

It forces me to think about our world a lot, that we could have multiple sensory sources of data measuring an object that moves very quickly, and we simply cannot figure out what it is.

它迫使我思考我们的世界，我们可能有多个感官数据源来测量快速移动的物体，但我们根本无法弄清楚它是什么。

It dates back to at least 2004, possibly much longer.

它至少可以追溯到 2004 年，甚至可能更久。

To simply say it’s the Chinese or it’s laser-induced plasma — a lot of explanations just don’t quite seem to cut it.

简单地说，这是中国人的产物，或者是激光诱导等离子体——很多解释似乎都不太能说明问题。

I’ve seen a lot of the-world-is-doomed illusions come and go.

我见过很多“世界注定要灭亡”的幻想来来去去。

Y2K — when we got all the computers are going to stop because they don’t know how to handle the year 2000.

Y2K ——当我们知道所有计算机都将停止运行，因为它们不知道如何处理 2000 年。

Stuff like that, on and on — the peak oil, and one thing after another.

诸如此类的事情，不断地——石油峰值，一件又一件。

I’ve become a .

我已经成为了。

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trying to encourage a certain sense of perspective and realism when people say that the world is going to end because of this, that, or the other thing.

当人们说世界将因为这个、那个或其他事情而终结时，试图鼓励某种观点和现实主义。

Humanity’s been around for a long time now.

人类已经存在很长时间了。

The world’s been around for a long time now.

这个世界已经存在很长时间了。

Biology is incredibly resilient and robust, and I think the world-ending trope is just a waste of mind.

生物学具有令人难以置信的弹性和强大性，我认为世界末日的比喻只是浪费思想。

On the design of the Whole Earth Catalog

关于《全球目录》的设计

It would have a leather belt in there for $2.25.

里面有一条皮带，售价 2.25 美元。

The write-up on it — instead of “This will make you more of a man,” it just said, “This is a pretty good little leather belt for $2.25.” That pragmatic clarity and succinctness, I took as a model of how to review things in the Whole Earth Catalog.

上面的文字不是“这会让你更像一个男人”，而是说：“这是一条相当不错的小皮带，售价 2.25 美元。”我将这种务实的清晰性和简洁性作为如何审查《全球概览》中内容的典范。

Likewise, photography.

同样，摄影。

Getting halftones — there was a brand-new device that would let you make halftones.

获得半色调—— 有一种全新的设备可以让你制作半色调。

Lots of times, we just clipped stuff out of magazines and books and just pasted it down.

很多时候，我们只是从杂志和书籍中剪下一些东西，然后将其粘贴下来。

Then the paste stubs — we originally used beeswax in a big old electric frying pan with melted beeswax, and we just pasted that on and slapped it down on the page.

然后是粘贴存根——我们最初在一个大的旧电煎锅中使用蜂蜡，并融化了蜂蜡，然后将其粘贴并拍打到页面上。

That was how we laid it out.

我们就是这样安排的。

There was one writer who said, “By the end of the Whole Earth Catalog, Stewart Brand was a wreck,” and I was a wreck.

有一位作家说，“到《全球概览》结束时，斯图尔特·布兰德已经是一片废墟了，”而我也是一片废墟。

Rather than just retire and hand it over to somebody else, again, with an artist’s impulse, I wanted to see what happens if you take a full-blown success and just stop it and see what happens.

我不想再一次以艺术家的冲动退休并把它交给别人，而是想看看如果你取得了全面的成功，然后停下来看看会发生什么。

It turned out wrong.

结果是错误的。

My hypothesis was that others would immediately step into that very obvious opportunity in the market and fill it, perhaps better and in many different ways.

我的假设是，其他人会立即踏入市场上那个非常明显的机会并填补它，也许更好，并且以多种不同的方式。

That did not happen.

但那并没有发生。

But what did happen is, as soon as I named the last Whole Earth Catalog, the Last Whole Earth Catalog, that turned out to be the best possible marketing device that I could ever have come up with.

但实际发生的事情是，当我命名最后一个《全球概览》时，最后一个《全球概览》，结果证明这是我能想到的最好的营销手段。

Calling something the “last” anything turns out to — if it’s honest, which it was at the time — it gets people.

把某样东西称为“最后”的东西，结果是 ——如果它是诚实的，就像当时的情况一样——它会吸引人们。

That book became a best seller.

那本书成为畅销书。

It got the National Book Award.

它获得了国家图书奖。

It was a big deal.

这是一件大事。

In fact, two different Broadway producers got in touch with me, saying that they wanted to do a Broadway play titled The Last Whole Earth Catalog and with people playing volleyball between scenes, and Paul Simon was going to write the lyrics and songs.

事实上，两位不同的百老汇制片人联系了我，说他们想制作一部名为《最后的整个地球目录》的百老汇戏剧，人们在场景之间打排球，而保罗·西蒙将写歌词和歌曲。

I later asked Paul Simon, “Was it really true?” He said “Yeah, yeah.” Went away like things do.

后来我问保罗·西蒙：“这是真的吗？”他说：“是啊，是啊。”像事情一样走了。

I was on a real downward slope.

我正处于真正的下坡路。

I had a marriage falling apart — my fault, and so I was a wreck for a few years.

我的婚姻破裂了——我的错，所以我有几年都处于崩溃状态。

I think the exception there is Steve Jobs, who basically studied visual design somewhat at Reed College.

我认为史蒂夫·乔布斯是个例外，他基本上在里德学院学习了一些视觉设计。

When he became fascinated by design as design, that really played out with Apple, and I’m glad I got Apple stock because I knew Steve Jobs.

当他对设计着迷时，这确实在苹果公司发挥了作用，我很高兴我购买了苹果股票，因为我认识史蒂夫·乔布斯。

COWEN: What do you think is missing in Silicon Valley because of this lack of interest in the visual arts, Jobs aside?

COWEN：除了乔布斯之外，你认为硅谷还缺少什么，因为人们对视觉艺术缺乏兴趣？

When Esalen Institute got started, I had already been doing seminars on my own with the students from Stanford at Slates Hot Springs — it later became Esalen — and got to be friends with Mike Murphy when he and Richard Price were starting Esalen Institute.

当伊莎伦学院成立时，我已经在斯莱特温泉（后来成为伊莎伦）与斯坦福大学的学生一起举办研讨会，并在迈克·墨菲和理查德·普莱斯创办伊莎伦学院时与他成为了朋友。

All of that human potential stuff was looking at religion, looking at meditation, looking at drugs.

所有人类潜在的东西都在研究宗教、冥想、毒品。

We were reading about Aldous Huxley and what he got from peyote, and I was hanging out with peyote Indians a lot, increasingly in the ’60s.

我们读到了奥尔德斯·赫胥黎（Aldous Huxley）以及他从仙人掌中得到的东西，而我经常和仙人掌印第安人一起出去玩，在 60 年代越来越多。

Friends in the Stanford area said LSD was just starting to turn up.

斯坦福地区的朋友说LSD才刚刚开始出现。

It was still legal through the early ’60s, and there was a so-called therapeutic model, which is now completely revived.

到了 60 年代初它仍然是合法的，并且有一种所谓的治疗模式，现在完全恢复了。

It’s interesting that it had to go through a long hiatus, that psychedelics can be useful as mental — in significant personal therapy.

有趣的是，它必须经历很长一段时间的中断，迷幻药可以在重要的个人治疗中作为精神治疗有用。

Remember before that, when psychoanalysis first came along, all the anthropologists felt they had to get psychoanalyzed.

记得在此之前，当精神分析第一次出现时，所有的人类学家都觉得他们必须接受精神分析。

This was a similar thing: “There’s this new therapy, and it’s supposed to be used on sick people, but if it works for sick people, let’s try it on healthy people to see if it makes them even healthier.” That was the theory we were going on.

这是一个类似的事情：“有一种新疗法，它应该用于病人，但如果它对病人有效，让我们在健康人身上尝试一下，看看它是否能让他们变得更健康。”这就是我们正在研究的理论。

As it happened in that set and setting of a therapy, I basically flunked out.

由于它发生在治疗的那一套和环境中，我基本上不及格。

It was just a not very pleasant, long episode.

这只是一个不太令人愉快的、漫长的插曲。

But later on, I had personal LSD experiences that were transformative, including one that got me going on what a difference the photograph of the whole Earth would make.

但后来，我个人经历了一次具有变革性的迷幻剂经历，其中一次让我意识到整个地球的照片会产生多么大的变化。

On San Francisco and hippie culture

论旧金山和嬉皮士文化

There’s a frivolousness that the Bay Area is good at.

湾区擅长轻浮。

It has two universities of significance, with Stanford and Cal.

它有两所重要的大学，斯坦福大学和加州大学。

So does LA, but LA does not feel like a college intellectual world, whereas San Francisco somewhat does.

洛杉矶也是如此，但洛杉矶并不像是一个大学知识世界，而旧金山却有些像。

Silicon Valley really is an outgrowth of the industrial park at Stanford that was invented by one guy.

硅谷实际上是斯坦福大学工业园的产物，是由一个人发明的。

Then those things, as you know, take off economically.

然后，正如你所知，这些事情就会在经济上起飞。

They feed themselves, and then they become their own storm system.

他们养活自己，然后成为自己的风暴系统。

There’re a lot of people like me from the Midwest who come to places like California, and one of the things I saw — because I spent time on the East Coast in prep school, and then in New Jersey as a military officer, and then a lot in New York as an artist — the sense I got is that people go to New York and LA to be successful.

有很多像我一样来自中西部的人来到加州等地，我看到的一件事是 ——因为我在东海岸的预科学校度过了一段时间，然后在新泽西当了一名军官，然后又在纽约当了很多艺术家 ——我得到的感觉是，人们去纽约和洛杉矶是为了获得成功。

If you can make it in the Big Apple, you can make it anywhere — that sort of thing.

如果你能在纽约成功，那么你就可以在任何地方成功——诸如此类。

Nobody says that about San Francisco.

没有人这样评价旧金山。

They never have, and I bet they never do.

他们从来没有这样做过，我敢打赌他们也从来没有这样做过。

The sense I got is that people go to New York and LA to be successful.

我的感觉是，人们去纽约和洛杉矶是为了获得成功。

If you can make it in the Big Apple, you can make it anywhere — that sort of thing.

如果你能在纽约成功，那么你就可以在任何地方成功——诸如此类。

Nobody says that about San Francisco.

没有人这样评价旧金山。

They never have, and I bet they never do.

他们从来没有这样做过，我敢打赌他们也从来没有这样做过。

People go to San Francisco to be happy, by and large, and then that leads to sort of a devil-may-care creativity, which is actually good for business startups of certain kinds, especially ones that have a low threshold, like anything digital or anything online.

总的来说，人们去旧金山是为了快乐，然后这会带来一种不顾一切的创造力，这实际上对某些类型的创业公司有利，尤其是那些门槛较低的创业公司，比如任何数字或在线的东西。

Screwing around is not only possible but encouraged, and screwing around is a way you discover new, useful things in the world, I think.

闲逛不仅是可能的，而且是值得鼓励的，我认为闲逛是发现世界上新的、有用的东西的一种方式。

I knew by the time I graduated from Stanford that I wanted to stay in the Bay Area.

当我从斯坦福大学毕业时，我就知道我想留在湾区。

I went away to be in the army, and then I came right back.

我去参军了，然后又回来了。

Then one of the guys, named Super Spade — his arms and legs cut off, and his torso was hung out by Ocean Beach from a tree.

然后其中一个名叫“超级黑桃”的家伙——他的胳膊和腿被砍掉，他的躯干被挂在海洋海滩的一棵树上。

And this knowledge of, well, those amateur days of drug sales are gone now, and the big-time players are here in town, and “Do not f — with us.”

好吧，那些业余贩毒的日子现在已经一去不复返了，大牌玩家都在城里，“别和我们在一起”。

That was the end of that.

事情就这样结束了。

Everybody who had been selling dope and learned a little bit of business from doing it, then went into business — legitimate business — and they were good at it.

每个卖毒品的人都从中学到了一点生意，然后开始做生意——“合法的生意”——而且他们都很擅长。

Hippies became, basically, very good commercial startup folks, partly because of that sequence of experiences.

基本上，嬉皮士成为了非常优秀的商业创业者，部分原因是这一系列的经历。

Everybody who had been selling dope and learned a little bit of business from doing it, then went into business — legitimate business — and they were good at it.

每个卖毒品的人都从中学到了一点生意，然后开始做生意——“合法的生意”——而且他们都很擅长。

Hippies became, basically, very good commercial startup folks, partly because of that sequence of experiences.

基本上，嬉皮士成为了非常优秀的商业创业者，部分原因是这一系列的经历。

I think a major shift that occurred is, to me, the completely understandable retreat from Silicon Valley, from the Midpeninsula.

我认为，对我来说，发生的一个重大转变是从硅谷、从中半岛撤退，这是完全可以理解的。

I lived there when we were doing the Whole Earth Catalog.

当我们制作《全球概览》时我住在那里。

It’s actually a horrible place to live compared to Marin County, where I am now — Marin County being north of the Golden Gate, and Silicon Valley being south of San Francisco.

与我现在所在的马林县相比，这实际上是一个可怕的居住地——马林县位于金门以北，硅谷位于旧金山以南。

With Salesforce, with Twitter, with these various web-based organizations that moved into the city and built their headquarters there and tried to house all the workers there and so on — that is a disgust with suburban working and living and a seeking out of downtown.

有了 Salesforce，有了 Twitter，有了这些各种基于网络的组织，他们搬进了城市，在那里建立了总部，并试图安置那里的所有工人等等——这是对郊区工作和生活的厌恶，是对市中心的寻求。

You’ve seen it in Seattle with Amazon staying in downtown Seattle, and so on.

你已经在西雅图看到过亚马逊住在西雅图市中心，等等。

And because I’d been thinking about writing and researching about cities from about 1998 on, that all seemed completely sensible to me.

因为从 1998 年左右开始，我就一直在考虑对城市进行写作和研究，所以这一切对我来说似乎都是完全合理的。

Cities are highly centripetal.

城市具有高度向心性。

They attract talent.

他们吸引人才。

They attract all these things.

他们吸引了所有这些东西。

In Geoffrey West’s book, Scale, and the studies going on at Santa Fe Institute on how cities accelerate everything and are the major economic engines of any region or any culture they’re in.

在杰弗里·韦斯特 (Geoffrey West) 的著作《规模》(Scale) 中，以及圣达菲研究所 (Santa Fe Institute) 正在进行的关于城市如何加速一切并成为其所在地区或文化的主要经济引擎的研究中。

If you’re ambitious and talented, you’re going to go to a town, and in the Bay Area, the town is San Francisco still.

如果你有野心、有才华，你就会去一个小镇，而在湾区，这个小镇仍然是旧金山。

On long-termism

论长期主义

You ended The Whole Earth Catalog.

你结束了《全球概览》。

The Merry Pranksters with Ken Kesey — that ended a long time ago.

肯·凯西的《快乐恶作剧者》——很久以前就结束了。

The online bulletin boards you were a part of, which were very important for the early years of the internet — those in their earlier form — those are gone.

你所在的在线公告板对于互联网的早期非常重要 ——那些早期形式的公告板——那些已经消失了。

Why seek durability if your own influence has typically come through the supposedly transient?

如果你自己的影响力通常是短暂的，为什么还要寻求持久性呢？

Once I had that perspective, plus I’d been a professional futurist for 20 years with the Global Business Network, where I saw that people doing scenarios would treat 25 years as a very long time frame.

一旦我有了这个观点，再加上我已经在全球商业网络工作了 20 年，是一名专业的未来学家，在那里我看到人们在做场景时会将 25 年视为一个非常长的时间框架。

In the military, we did scenarios where I would sometimes go out 50 years.

在军队里，我们做了一些场景，有时我会出去 50 年。

And I thought, considering the level of stuff going on and the changes going on, it’s understandable people would pay attention to the short term.

我认为，考虑到正在发生的事情的水平和正在发生的变化，人们关注短期是可以理解的。

But meanwhile, these basic dynamics of the really slow stuff is where the power is and calls for a reorientation of focus.

但与此同时，这些真正缓慢的东西的基本动力正是力量所在，并要求重新调整焦点。

Then Danny Hillis, a computer scientist at MIT who I’d gotten to know at the Media Lab, wrote an email saying, “I’d like to build a clock the scale of Stonehenge that keeps very long-term time and ticks once a century and bongs every thousand years.” He sent that out to everybody he knew, but nobody responded but me.

然后，我在媒体实验室认识的麻省理工学院计算机科学家丹尼·希利斯 (Danny Hillis) 写了一封电子邮件说：“我想建造一个巨石阵大小的时钟，它可以保持很长时间的时间，每世纪滴答一次，每千年敲响一次。”他把它发给了他认识的每个人，但除了我之外没有人回复。

I responded and said, “Let’s do it,” I think because of the stuff I just mentioned.

我回答说：“让我们开始吧”，我想是因为我刚才提到的事情。

Danny’s framing of it was, all through the ’80s and ’90s, everybody referred to the future as the year 2000.

丹尼的框架是，整个 80 年代和 90 年代，每个人都将未来称为 2000 年。

Danny was growing up during that time, and he said, “For my entire life, the future has been getting shorter by one year per year.” That does not seem like a healthy frame of mind for a civilization that wants to be healthy to have.

丹尼就是在那段时间长大的，他说：“在我的一生中，未来一年比一年短。”对于一个想要健康的文明来说，这似乎不是一个健康的心态。

What could pop through that membrane of the year 2000?

2000 年的那层膜会冲破什么东西？

Coming up with the idea of a very durable, basically, perpetual-motion machine of a clock.

提出了一种非常耐用、基本上是永动机的时钟的想法。

The clock, by the way, is not trying to be built.

顺便说一句，时钟并不是要建造的。

It is built.

它已建成。

It’s almost completed in Texas on Jeff Bezos’s mountain range.

它在德克萨斯州杰夫·贝佐斯的山脉上即将完工。

It’s not a perpetual-motion machine in the sense that it takes the temperature difference on the very high mountain it’s on between night and day, and runs on an air bladder that then provides energy that keeps the clock knowing what time it is for thousands of years.

从某种意义上说，它不是永动机，它利用所在高山上昼夜温差，并在气囊上运行，然后提供能量，使时钟几千年来都知道现在是什么时间。

By and large, when I was optimistic about stuff, I turned out to be right, and when I was pessimistic about stuff, I turned out to be wrong often enough that it has kept optimism alive.

总的来说，当我对事物持乐观态度时，事实证明我是对的，而当我对事物持悲观态度时，事实证明我常常是错误的，这足以让乐观情绪保持活力。

Right now, the political conundrum of the United States has me worried, and I don’t know what to do about it.

现在美国的政治难题让我很担心，不知道该怎么办。

I can see that cyberwar is going to play out in some ugly ways, and already has to a large extent.

我可以看到网络战争将会以一些丑陋的方式展开，而且在很大程度上已经如此。

I don’t see automatic solutions to either of those or ones that I can help with, except focusing on a long-term frame.

除了关注长期框架之外，我看不到这些问题或我可以提供帮助的自动解决方案。

At Long Now, we describe it as the last 10,000 years and the next 10,000 years.

在《Long Now》中，我们将其描述为过去一万年和未来一万年。

There’s the now that is an hour long, the now that is two weeks long that you’re in the middle of, and then there’s the somewhat longer now that is 20,000 years long.

有一个小时长的现在，有两周长的现在，你正处于其中，还有一个更长的现在，有两万年长。

I think human civilization is earned in deeds.

我认为人类文明是靠行动换来的。

The perspective of that is a foundation for thinking about everything.

这种观点是思考一切的基础。

This is some of the best thinking going on in society, and science fiction has always opened that door to thinking about the future in creative ways.

这是社会上正在发生的一些最好的思考，而科幻小说总是为以创造性的方式思考未来打开了大门。

Marvin Minsky, who I knew at MIT, was always quoting Isaac Asimov, and he just said, “Look, these are artists who thought about this stuff a lot, and I paid close attention.” I feel the same.

我在麻省理工学院认识的马文·明斯基（Marvin Minsky）总是引用艾萨克·阿西莫夫（Isaac Asimov）的话，他只是说，“看，这些艺术家对这个问题思考了很多，我密切关注。”我也有同感。

On governance

关于治理

So, there was a do-it-yourself thing that translated for many as “screw the government.” Then the whole hippie period was counterculture, and a lot of that was played out politically in the new left and so on.

因此，有一种“自己动手”的东西对许多人来说被翻译为“去他妈的政府”。然后整个嬉皮士时期都是反主流文化，其中很多都是在新左派等政治上上演的。

Working in the governor’s office in Sacramento and wearing a three-piece suit, one of the things that I started was a water atlas of California, and then the research that we set in motion from the governor’s office to bring about this actually quite beautiful and somewhat influential book.

在萨克拉门托的州长办公室工作，穿着三件套西装，我开始做的事情之一是制作加州水地图集，然后我们在州长办公室启动研究，最终完成了这本非常漂亮且颇具影响力的书。

California is a hydraulic civilization, as you know, and we move our water around.

如您所知，加利福尼亚州是一个水利文明，我们四处输送水。

That’s what makes agriculture the main event here.

这就是农业成为这里的主要活动的原因。

It’s what makes Los Angeles possible, and so on and so forth.

这使得洛杉矶成为可能，等等。

I saw the people at the water resources department.

我看到了水利部门的人。

I saw what they did all day, and we would show up, saying, “Look, we need some data on the Smith River, which is the only undammed river in California.

我看到他们一整天都在做什么，我们会出现，说：“看，我们需要一些关于史密斯河的数据，这是加利福尼亚州唯一没有筑坝的河流。

What are the patterns of flow in that, and how deep do your records go?”

其中的流程模式是什么？你的记录有多深？”

Somebody’s deputy assistant would say, “We thought you’d never ask.” They had been carefully keeping this data and trying to correlate it with things and keep it up to date in the various computer systems and so on for decades.

有人的副助理会说：“我们以为你永远不会问。”几十年来，他们一直小心翼翼地保存这些数据，并试图将其与事物关联起来，并使其在各种计算机系统等中保持最新状态。

The low-paid, high-quality, selfless work that these folks were doing.

这些人所做的工作是低薪、高质量、无私的。

In the governor’s office, you always knew who was Republican, who was a Democrat and why, and all this stuff.

在州长办公室，你总是知道谁是共和党人，谁是民主党人，以及为什么，等等。

Down in the departments, nobody knew and nobody cared.

在各个部门，没有人知道，也没有人关心。

There were Republicans and Democrats scattered throughout the whole system, and it was part of the ethic that that part of government should just not be political in the divisive sense at all.

共和党和民主党分散在整个体系中，政府的这一部分根本不应该是分裂意义上的政治，这是道德的一部分。

I was seeing something that the libertarian folks that I knew knew nothing about and were not the slightest bit interested in.

我所看到的东西是我认识的自由主义者一无所知，也没有丝毫兴趣的。

They weren’t actually interested.

他们实际上并不感兴趣。

I think you, as somewhat of a libertarian, are interested in how government works.

我认为您作为一个自由主义者，对政府的运作方式感兴趣。

Most of the ones I knew were not.

我认识的大多数人都不是。

They were interested in how election works, and they thought the absurdities that they saw in elections and electioneering was government, and it’s not.

他们对选举的运作方式很感兴趣，他们认为他们在选举和竞选活动中看到的荒谬之处是政府，但事实并非如此。

I finally got the perspective of what is now vilified as the deep state, and the deep state, at least in California, is damned impressive.

我终于明白了现在被诽谤为“深层政府”的观点，而“深层政府”，至少在加州，是令人印象深刻的。

I came out being way less interested in who was the governor.

我对谁是州长不太感兴趣。

I basically came out saying, “Well, Jerry’s a good governor as near as I can tell.” But then later on, Schwarzenegger was a pretty good governor.

我基本上是说：“嗯，据我所知，杰里是一位好州长。”但后来，施瓦辛格成为了一位相当不错的州长。

Reagan had been a pretty good governor.

里根是一位相当出色的州长。

And the realization I had is, Donald Duck could be governor, and it wouldn’t be the end of the state.

我意识到，唐老鸭可以当州长，但这不会是这个州的终结。

Trump finally proved that you could have somebody — as a president in that case — who could be really destructive, and the deep state was not as successful as it usually is of working around it, but that’s reflective of a whole bunch of other stuff going on that I do not comprehend, frankly.

特朗普最终证明，你可以有一个人————在这种情况下作为总统————他可能具有真正的破坏性，而深层政府在解决这个问题方面并不像通常那样成功，但这反映出正在发生的一大堆其他事情，坦率地说，我不理解。

Frankly, I love the autopilot on the Tesla drive.

坦白说，我喜欢特斯拉驱动器上的自动驾驶仪。

I don’t use it to get all the way from here to there.

我不会用它来从这里到那里。

I use it so I don’t have to pay close attention to traffic, just peripheral attention, and the difference there is fantastic.

我使用它，这样我就不必密切关注交通状况，只需关注外围，其中的差异是巨大的。

But trying to get a whole bunch of things coordinated around shortcut convenience — that is a long cut to finally program it all so that it works.

但是，试图围绕快捷便利性来协调一大堆事情——要最终对所有这些进行编程以使其发挥作用，这是一个漫长的过程。

It winds up like those remote clickers for television.

它就像电视上的远程答题器一样。

They have too many buttons, and people finally learn the three buttons that do what they mainly want and pay no attention to the rest.

它们有太多的按钮，人们最终学会了三个按钮来完成他们主要想做的事情，而不注意其余的。

Then the younger members of the family sort them all out and become adept at it, and then the next generation of excessive choices comes along, and they don’t know, and they’ve got to ask their kids how the hell does this complex thing work.

然后家庭中的年轻成员将它们全部整理出来并变得熟练，然后下一代过度选择出现，他们不知道，他们必须问他们的孩子这个复杂的事情到底是如何运作的。

I think there’s an endless quest for complete handiness, and I think, generally, people who go for simplicity rather than robotized complexity in terms of personal living are happier.

我认为人们对完全便利性的追求是无止境的，而且我认为，一般来说，在个人生活方面追求简单而不是机器人化的复杂性的人会更快乐。

Professional high-concept architecture is allergic to all of that, and they want to make a work of art or signature piece of something or other with the look of that particular architect, and they hope that the function will work out.

专业的高概念建筑对所有这些都过敏，他们希望制作一件具有特定建筑师外观的艺术品或标志性作品，并且他们希望该功能能够发挥作用。

The buildings that tend to go best are ones that are really durable, like the old brick factories of the East Coast or some of the tilt-up concrete spaces, what I call low-road buildings.

效果最好的建筑往往是那些真正耐用的建筑，比如东海岸的旧砖厂或一些倾斜的混凝土空间，我称之为低道路建筑。

For example, at Stanford, when I was there, there were temporary buildings left over from World War II.

比如我在斯坦福的时候，那里有二战遗留下来的临时建筑。

And at MIT, the Rad Lab, Building 20, was where much of the real innovation that happened in curriculum in science or in engineering happened — in the trailers.

在麻省理工学院，20 号楼的 Rad 实验室是科学或工程课程中发生的许多真正创新的地方——在预告片中。

It happened in Building 20.

事情发生在20号楼。

Because those were buildings that nobody cared about, you could do anything you wanted in there.

因为那些都是没人关心的建筑物，你可以在那里做任何你想做的事。

You could adapt the building to whatever research you were doing, and it was cheap.

你可以根据你正在做的任何研究来调整这座建筑，而且它很便宜。

You could throw things together and have them fall apart and not care, or have them take over the world.

你可以把东西放在一起，然后让它们分崩离析而不去关心，或者让它们接管世界。

Because you started cheap, you were able to get there without having to overinvest.

因为起步成本低廉，所以无需过度投资即可实现目标。

Buildings that adapt well over time are basically built strong for certain reasons, then stay strong as the decades go by and the different uses go by.

随着时间的推移而适应良好的建筑物基本上都是出于某些原因而建造得很坚固，然后随着几十年的流逝和不同用途的变化而保持坚固。

In the book, I wound up sorting out various things that have those qualities and things that don’t.

在书中，我最终整理出了各种具有这些品质和不具有这些品质的东西。

I had a chapter on maintenance because buildings are the most maintenance-needing and maintenance-defying things that we build.

我有一章是关于维护的，因为建筑物是我们建造的最需要维护和最难维护的东西。

So, there’s a constant dialogue between keeping up with that and letting it go, and then cycles of real estate value that go in and out, and so on and so forth.

因此，在坚持和放弃之间存在着持续的对话，然后是房地产价值的进出周期，等等。

I don’t have a short answer to your question of what makes them more adaptable, but really looking at what buildings do over time sure helps.

对于你的问题，我没有一个简短的答案，即是什么让它们更具适应性，但真正了解建筑物随着时间的推移所做的事情肯定会有所帮助。

There’s an attention to detail, of caring about the physical essence of stuff, that the Japanese are surpassing at.

日本人非常注重细节，关心事物的物理本质。

On the other hand, there’s a lot so screwed up in Japanese culture.

另一方面，日本文化中有很多糟糕的事情。

The cities are a mess.

城市一片混乱。

The buildings — most of them are haphazardly built.

这些建筑 —— 大部分都是随意建造的。

I first fell in love with Japanese architecture through a book, Japanese Homes and Their Surroundings, 1896 by a New Englander.

我第一次爱上日本建筑是通过一本新英格兰人于 1896 年出版的书《日本住宅及其周围环境》。

He just spelled out the traditional Japanese home and the genkan, and the use of the tatami mats, the relationship with the garden, and the benjo and all the stuff — the bathroom.

他只是阐述了传统的日本家庭和玄关、榻榻米的使用、与花园的关系、便当和所有的东西——浴室。

The aesthetic practicality of it just knocked me out.

它的美学实用性让我震惊。

I actually got to stay in a house like that in Kyoto for a season one year, and it was fantastic.

事实上，我在京都这样的房子里住了一年，真是太棒了。

Japanese craft, at its best, is just the best there is.

日本工艺是世界上最好的工艺。

Climatologically it’s much more stable, but mainly, it was the Serengeti of the North.

从气候上来说，它要稳定得多，但主要是北方的塞伦盖蒂。

Endless large animals and an incredibly rich animal and vegetable ecosystem compared to what’s there now.

与现在相比，有无数的大型动物和极其丰富的动植物生态系统。

That’s a case where humans — to some extent climate, but mainly humans — got rid of all the megafauna by killing them and eating them.

在这种情况下，人类——“在某种程度上气候，但主要是人类”——通过杀死并吃掉所有巨型动物来消灭它们。

That keeps happening.

这种情况一直在发生。

As they come back, they will — the way the elephants and rhinos and whatnot do in Africa — they will bring back the mosaic landscape that is drastically richer and, by the way, much more stable in terms of climate.

当他们回来时，他们会——就像大象和犀牛以及非洲的其他动物所做的那样——他们将带回更加丰富的马赛克景观，顺便说一句，在气候方面也更加稳定。

As it happens, Asian elephants already live in Canada and like to break through the ice in the pond to go swimming.

碰巧的是，亚洲象已经生活在加拿大，喜欢冲破池塘的冰层去游泳。

They wouldn’t make it through the long Arctic night, but they already like the cold.

他们无法熬过北极的漫漫长夜，但他们已经喜欢上了寒冷。

When you’re big and massive, cold is not that harsh an event.

当你体型庞大时，寒冷就不再是一件严酷的事情了。

I think bringing grazers and megafauna back to the far north will be practical and beneficial.

我认为将食草动物和巨型动物带回遥远的北方将是实际且有益的。

It’s already going on at this place called Pleistocene Park in far northeastern Siberia.

这种情况已经在西伯利亚东北部一个叫做更新世公园的地方发生了。

On the Stewart Brand Production Function

论斯图尔特品牌生产函数

And many don’t.

但很多人没有。

You’ve probably noticed that people you know in their 70s are different from people that you knew in their 70s when you were a little kid.

您可能已经注意到，您认识的 70 多岁的人与您小时候认识的 70 多岁的人不同。

When it was over, they were settling down to play golf or whatever it was.

比赛结束后，他们就坐下来打高尔夫球或者其他什么。

Probably a whole lot of people you know in their 70s and 80s are hard at it, in some cases, just hitting their stride.

也许你认识的很多 70 多岁和 80 多岁的人都在努力做到这一点，在某些情况下，只是大步前进。

That’s a change that has occurred in my lifetime.

这是我一生中发生的变化。

That is a total treat, and as near as I can tell, that one is permanent.

这是一种彻底的享受，而且据我所知，这是永久性的。

I think that’s with us now.

我想现在我们就这样了。

People will live longer and thrive longer.

人们将活得更久，茁壮成长得更久。

The health span, as it’s now being referred to, instead of life span — health span, meaning how long you can be really engaged and productive and alive to things.

正如现在所说的，健康寿命，而不是寿命 ——健康寿命，意味着你可以真正投入、富有成效、对事物充满活力的时间。

I think that’s very good in terms of long-term thinking because people who are older have a longer “now.” Their future may be getting shorter, but their past is personally and significantly long.

我认为这对于长远思考来说是非常好的，因为年纪大的人有更长的“现在”。他们的未来可能越来越短，但他们个人的过去却相当漫长。

They’ve seen a lot of stuff come and go, and they’ve seen a lot of skills that possibly they had time to pick up that they can now deploy.

他们看到了很多东西的来来去去，也看到了很多他们可能有时间学习的技能，现在可以部署。

All of that makes at least the kind of intellectual life that we both seem to enjoy that much richer.

所有这些至少让我们似乎都享受的那种智力生活变得更加丰富。

So long as your genes are supporting your brain cells, and whatever other medications and stuff we can do medically, it’s possible for me to carry on in ways that would not have been possible a century ago.

只要你的基因支持你的脑细胞，以及我们在医学上可以做的任何其他药物和东西，我就有可能以一个世纪前不可能的方式继续下去。

So, there you have it.

所以，你就知道了。

We are living longer, and we’re finding ways to keep the human body and human brain functioning better, longer.

我们的寿命越来越长，我们正在寻找让人体和大脑更好、更长久运作的方法。

Why would you not take advantage of that?

你为什么不利用这一点呢？

I worked on it for about six months and just failed totally.

我为此工作了大约六个月，但完全失败了。

I was not good at that.

我不擅长那件事。

I would love to see a whole lot more really creative philanthropy.

我希望看到更多真正有创意的慈善事业。

This is another thing that I think you and Patrick Collison — like you’ve done with your Fast Grants — can help move much more creative philanthropy.

我认为，这是您和帕特里克·科里森（Patrick Collison） 的另一件事——就像您对快速资助所做的那样——可以帮助推动更具创造性的慈善事业。

One of the things I’ve noticed all my life is that philanthropy should be the most creative thing going.

我一生注意到的一件事是慈善事业应该是最具创造力的事情。

It’s got to be more creative than government.

它必须比政府更有创造力。

It’s got to be more creative than anything the commercial entities can do.

它必须比商业实体所能做的任何事情都更有创意。

That it is not, is just a waste because, especially in America — we’re the most philanthropic society in the world, and yet it’s not as creative as it should be.

事实并非如此，这只是一种浪费，因为，尤其是在美国——我们是世界上最慈善的社会，但它并没有应有的创造力。

I don’t care as much about whether other people are doing something.

我不太关心其他人是否在做某事。

What I’m looking for is things that will, in Gregory Bateson’s terms, make circuits with the world.

我正在寻找的是，用格雷戈里·贝特森的话来说，能够与世界形成回路的东西。

You see some of this in software development, where people talk about the minimum viable product, and you start to get a user base that you can co-evolve with and develop your product so it’s actually useful to them.

你在软件开发中看到了一些这样的情况，人们谈论最小可行产品，你开始获得一个用户群，你可以与他们共同发展并开发你的产品，这样它对他们来说实际上是有用的。

Amazon talks about the minimum lovable product, where it’s not only useful, it’s compelling, and then you don’t let anything into the world unless it adds its lovability quality to it.

亚马逊谈论的是最可爱的产品，它不仅有用，而且引人注目，然后你不会让任何东西进入世界，除非它增加了可爱的品质。

I’m a little earlier in the process.

我在这个过程中有点早。

I’m just feeling around for things that feel like they’re overlooked.

我只是在寻找那些感觉被忽视的事情。

The Whole Earth Catalog — do-it-yourself was something that middle-aged gentlemen who’d retired — it’s what they were doing in their garage, and it was looked down on.

《全球概览》——“自己动手做是那些退休的中年绅士们做的事”——“这是他们在车库里做的事情，而且被人瞧不起。”

Catalogs were looked down on.

目录被轻视。

Basically, I just took those two things that were regarded with disdain and turned them into something that turned out to be powerful.

基本上，我只是把那两个被人鄙视的东西，变成了一个强大的东西。

Likewise, right now, I’m focusing on maintenance, partly because I notice in myself and everybody else a reluctance to think about maintenance because it’s a chore, it’s a nuisance, it’s a problem.

同样，现在，我专注于维护，部分原因是我注意到自己和其他人都不愿意考虑维护，因为这是一件苦差事、一件麻烦事、一个问题。

There’s no economic short-term value in it, and, and, and, and .

它没有经济短期价值，并且，并且，并且，并且。

.

。

.

。

because with the Long Now Foundation, we’re looking at becoming a long-term institution to stay with the clock.

因为通过 Long Now 基金会，我们希望成为一个与时俱进的长期机构。

That’s based on noticing the difference between Stonehenge, Egyptian pyramids, and the Ise Shrine in Japan.

这是基于注意到巨石阵、埃及金字塔和日本伊势神宫之间的差异。

Nobody knows what the hell Stonehenge was really for.

没有人知道巨石阵到底是做什么用的。

We know a lot about pharaonic religion with the pyramids, but it is as dead as a doornail.

我们对金字塔的法老宗教了解很多，但它就像门钉一样死气沉沉。

Yet the Ise Shrine, expressing Shinto culture in Japan, is as alive today as it was 1500 years ago, and it is the beating heart of Japanese culture.

然而，表达日本神道文化的伊势神宫至今仍像 1500 年前一样生机勃勃，是日本文化跳动的心脏。

What’s the difference?

有什么区别？

The difference is, I guess, maintenance, and it’s institutionalizing.

我想，区别在于维护，而且它正在制度化。

We’ve got a lot more respect for institutions and trying to understand their institutions.

我们对机构更加尊重，并试图了解他们的机构。

Alexander Rose, the director of Long Now Foundation, is actively funding and pursuing the study of longevity in institutions.

长寿基金会 (Long Now Foundation) 主任亚历山大·罗斯 (Alexander Rose) 正在积极资助和开展机构中的长寿研究。

What actually makes it work?

到底是什么让它发挥作用？

What makes them earn their longevity and keep it in a changing world?

是什么让他们赢得了长寿并在不断变化的世界中保持长寿？

Well, the whole concept of maintenance, I think, is in the thick of all of that, so I’m spending all my time now in this room with all these books, sorting out how to think about maintenance in general.

嗯，我认为维护的整个概念就是这一切的核心，所以我现在把所有的时间都花在这个房间里，看所有这些书，整理出如何思考一般的维护。

Thumbnail photo credit: Mark Mahaney

缩略图照片来源：Mark Mahaney