Slavoj Žižek on His Stubborn Attachment to Communism (Ep. 84 - BONUS)

SLAVOJ ŽIŽEK: Before you begin, one thing.

SLAVOJ ŽIŽEK： 在开始之前，先说一件事。

Let me express my admiration for Tyler.

让我表达我对泰勒的钦佩。

I am a strange Communist like Marx, who said that one can learn more from a conservative like Balzac than from all progressives about economy.

我是一个像马克思一样奇怪的共产主义者，他说过，人们从巴尔扎克这样的保守派那里学到的东西比从所有进步主义者那里学到的关于经济的东西要多。

I think that our only true partners, the true leftists today, are modest, intelligent, honest skeptics.

我认为我们唯一真正的伙伴，今天真正的左派，是谦虚、聪明、诚实的怀疑论者。

Conservatives.

保守派。

This morning, he provided the best — I’m grateful for it — the best definition of myself.

今天早上，他为我自己提供了最好的——我很感激——最好的定义。

He told me that he considers me a moderate conservative Communist.

他告诉我，他认为我是一个温和保守的共产党人。

My gratitude to you.

我对你的感激之情。

Thank you.

谢谢。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

So why isn’t China the failure, Taiwan the success?

那么为什么中国不是失败的，而台湾是成功的呢？

And yes, it’s a vote for capitalism, not Communism.

是的，这是对资本主义的投票，而不是对共产主义的投票。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah, you’re really asking me that question.

齐伊泽克：是的，你确实在问我这个问题。

Okay.

好的。

ŽIŽEK: Okay, okay, okay.

齐伊泽克：好的，好的，好的。

No, no, first, if you compare China 50 years ago, the difference is still absolutely shocking.

不不不，第一，如果对比50年前的中国，差距还是绝对令人震惊的。

Look at Shanghai, Beijing today, and so on.

看看今天的上海、北京等等。

Second point, forget about per capita.

第二点，忘记人均。

Compare prices and so on, and you will see that today’s China — the standard of living of middle classes, at least in the developed part.

比较一下物价等等，你就会发现今天的中国——中产阶级的生活水平，至少在发达地区是这样。

Numbers at this level don’t tell a lot.

这个级别的数字并不能说明很多问题。

But at one point, I agree with you, that in the long term, this whatever we call it, Chinese authoritarian capitalism or whatever we call it, will not work, I think.

但在某一点上，我同意你的观点，即从长远来看，我认为无论我们如何称呼它，中国的威权资本主义或无论我们如何称呼它，都是行不通的。

ŽIŽEK: No, but .

齐伊泽克：不，但是。

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Okay, can I briefly answer you very honestly?

好吧，我可以非常诚实地简短地回答你吗？

ŽIŽEK: I see all your points.

齐伊泽克：我明白你的所有观点。

I agree with them, but my point is this one, nonetheless, and now I want to ask you, if I may, a question.

我同意他们的观点，但我的观点仍然是这一点，现在我想问你一个问题，如果可以的话。

ŽIŽEK: Okay, I know we exaggerate, and I’m well aware of .

齐伊泽克：好吧，我知道我们夸大了，而且我很清楚……。

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I emphasized it, do you remember?

我强调了，你还记得吗？

How easy it is to fall into this fascination by catastrophic prospect.

人们很容易陷入对灾难性前景的迷恋之中。

Do you remember?

你是否记得？

No, you are not old enough.

不，你还不够老。

I am.

我是。

Some of you must.

你们中的一些人必须这样做。

Around 30, 40 years ago, most of Europe, especially Germany —

大约 30、40 年前，欧洲大部分地区，尤其是德国 —

ŽIŽEK: — was obsessed by Waldsterben — the dying of forests.

齐伊泽克：——对 Waldsterben 着迷——森林的消亡。

ŽIŽEK: And I remember the cover of Spiegel—they demonstrated exactly with statistics that 40, 50 years after that time — today — Europe will be without forests.

齐伊泽克：我记得《明镜周刊》的封面——他们用统计数据准确地证明了 40 年、50 年后——今天——欧洲将没有森林。

I’m sad to tell you, but according to some statistics, today there are more forests in the world than in any point in last 100 years, so I’m over-aware of this fascination of catastrophe.

我很遗憾地告诉你，但根据一些统计数据，今天世界上的森林数量比过去 100 年来的任何时候都多，所以我过度意识到了灾难的魅力。

Nonetheless, I think — and you can deny it; I will not — when we Communists take over, you will go to Gulag but for different reasons.

尽管如此，我认为——你可以否认这一点；我不会——当我们共产党人接管时，你们会去古拉格，但出于不同的原因。

ŽIŽEK: You know why I’m glad to talk with him?

齐伊泽克：你知道我为什么很高兴和他谈话吗？

In today’s politically correct climate, in typical Western academic institution, you cannot talk like that, you know?

在当今政治正确的氛围下，在典型的西方学术机构中，你不能那样说话，你知道吗？

I nonetheless see these threats, and I could go on indefinitely, like digital control and so on.

尽管如此，我仍然看到了这些威胁，而且我可以无限期地继续下去，比如数字控制等等。

Things are serious there — the extent to which we are manipulated already, and so on.

那里的事情很严重——我们已经被操纵的程度等等。

Ecology, immigration, and did you notice?

生态、移民，你注意到了吗？

I’m not a simple humanitarian there.

我在那里不是一个简单的人道主义者。

I just don’t share this simple optimism — open our hearts, and what?

我只是不同意这种简单的乐观主义——敞开心扉，然后呢？

All the poor will move to Europe and whatever.

所有的穷人都会搬到欧洲等等。

Very simple question.

很简单的问题。

I will try to cut myself short.

我会尽力缩短自己的时间。

These three domains that I outlined — I think, at least in long term, they need a more radical .

我概述的这三个领域——我认为，至少从长远来看，它们需要更激进的。

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something will have to happen.

一定会发生一些事情。

Probably you don’t agree.

也许你不同意。

Do you see them as serious threats?

您认为它们是严重威胁吗？

Are you still a Fukuyama-ist, in the sense of we just make a system function a little bit better?

从我们只是让系统功能变得更好一点的意义上来说，您仍然是福山主义者吗？

I am skeptical there.

我对此表示怀疑。

ŽIŽEK: The worst.

齐伊泽克：最糟糕的。

ŽIŽEK: Yes.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: I even know — it may surprise you — the exact data.

ŽIŽEK：我什至知道——这可能会让你感到惊讶——确切的数据。

I was shown by a friend in suburb of Shanghai, already clinics .

朋友带我去上海郊区的，已经诊所了。

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I will not lose too much time.

我不会浪费太多时间。

This will interest you.

这会让你感兴趣。

ŽIŽEK: I met years ago, in Frankfurt Book Fair, one high guy from Chinese Academy of Sciences, and he gave me, printed in English, the short program, programmatic note.

齐伊泽克：几年前，我在法兰克福书展上遇到了一位来自中国科学院的高人，他给了我一份用英文印刷的简短节目、纲领性说明。

And it says — it shocked me, literally — “The goal of biogenetics in China is to regulate physical and psychic health of the Chinese nation.” They are directly doing it.

它说——字面上让我震惊——“中国生物遗传学的目标是调节中华民族的身心健康。”他们直接在做。

What I only don’t like is, don’t just evoke China as this ultimate horror.

我唯一不喜欢的是，不要仅仅把中国视为终极恐怖。

We are basically doing the same, I think.

我认为我们基本上在做同样的事情。

Now, also, you’re from Slovenia, you’re from the Balkans.

现在，你也来自斯洛文尼亚，你来自巴尔干地区。

That part of the world has not developed ideally.

世界的那部分地区发展并不理想。

There are far-right parties in many places.

很多地方都有极右翼政党。

There’s been war.

有战争。

The Balkans are still a disappointment.

巴尔干地区仍然令人失望。

So there’s a negative outlook on the world you’re from, and I view your attachment to the Communist label as a kind of nostalgia, like the old Stalinist songs, which you don’t actually think are better than Beethoven.

所以你对自己的世界有一种消极的看法，我认为你对共产主义标签的依恋是一种怀旧，就像斯大林主义的老歌一样，你实际上并不认为它们比贝多芬更好。

But it’s something like the old East German women who love their Spreewald pickles, the old cars, the Trabis.

但这有点像喜欢施普雷瓦尔德泡菜、老式汽车、特拉比斯的老东德妇女。

And the Communist label, for you — it’s like your Spreewald pickles.

而共产主义标签，对你来说——就像你的施普雷瓦尔德泡菜一样。

It’s like the Trabi.

就像特拉比一样。

Why not just cast it aside and live free?

为什么不把它抛在一边，自由地生活呢？

Why be so tied to your own nostalgia?

为什么要如此执着于自己的怀旧之情呢？

That’s my question.

这是我的问题。

ŽIŽEK: Okay.

齐伊泽克：好的。

My counterquestion is that obviously what I read today around .

我的反问显然是我今天读到的内容。

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Nonetheless, I’m more of a pessimist.

尽管如此，我还是一个比较悲观的人。

You see, we’re coming back to this basic dilemma.

你看，我们又回到了这个基本的困境。

ŽIŽEK: Okay, okay.

齐伊泽克：好的，好的。

Let’s go on.

我们继续吧。

I don’t want to lose your time, but what really fascinates me in Stalinism is, if you look at it closely, how fascinated Stalinism was by America.

我不想浪费你的时间，但斯大林主义真正让我着迷的是，如果你仔细观察，就会发现美国对斯大林主义是多么着迷。

For example, do you know, that’s why I like Soviet cinemas — the absolute model of Soviet cinema was Hollywood.

例如，你知道吗，这就是我喜欢苏联电影的原因——苏联电影的绝对典范是好莱坞。

They had desperate plans in the ’30s to build on Crimea their own version of Hollywood.

他们在 30 年代制定了孤注一掷的计划，要在克里米亚建立他们自己的好莱坞版本。

How they imitated Hollywood and so on and so on.

他们如何模仿好莱坞等等。

I claim that even explicitly, when Stalin was asked, around 1930, his definition of a Bolshevik, he said, “The one which combines ration, dedication to a sacred cause, with American pragmatism, efficiency,” and so on, and so on.

我声称，甚至明确地，当斯大林在 1930 年左右被问及他对布尔什维克的定义时，他说，“将理性、对神圣事业的奉献与美国的实用主义、效率结合起来的布尔什维克”，等等。

But behind this what you call nostalgia is, for me, nonetheless much more pragmatic, if you want it.

但在这背后，你所谓的怀旧对我来说仍然更加务实，如果你愿意的话。

I’m the first to admit — maybe we share your opinion here — that’s my criticism, one of the criticisms of Frankfurt School, is they always repeat, “Look at Habermas, at his work.” He began publishing in early ’50s.

我是第一个承认的——也许我们在这里分享你的观点——这是我的批评，法兰克福学派的批评之一，他们总是重复，“看看哈贝马斯，看看他的作品。”他于 50 年代初开始出版。

Read all his work, and I don’t think you will even guess from his published texts that there is something like Communism in East Germany.

阅读他所有的作品，我认为你甚至不会从他发表的文本中猜出东德存在类似共产主义的东西。

Frankfurt School, in a strange way, almost totally .

法兰克福学派，以一种奇怪的方式，几乎完全。

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I know there is Marcuse’s book Soviet Marxism, but it’s very specific.

我知道马尔库塞有本书《苏联马克思主义》，但它非常具体。

And you know what makes it so strange?

你知道是什么让它如此奇怪吗？

The central thesis of late Frankfurt School is dialectic of enlightenment.

晚期法兰克福学派的中心论点是启蒙辩证法。

Horrors of 20th century — fascism, Stalinism — are not simply regressions to some dark past.

20 世纪的恐怖——法西斯主义、斯大林主义——不仅仅是对某些黑暗过去的倒退。

They are deployment of a certain totalitarian — whatever we call them — potentials in the project of modernity itself.

它们是现代性本身计划中某种极权主义——无论我们如何称呼它们——潜力的部署。

Okay.

好的。

But isn’t Stalinism a much more traumatic example of this than fascism?

但斯大林主义难道不是比法西斯主义更令人痛苦的例子吗？

With fascism, things are relatively simple, I think.

我认为，对于法西斯主义，事情相对简单。

It’s a model of conservative revolution and so on and so on.

这是保守革命的典范等等。

But Bolshevism, which tried to do a radical emancipation and it turned into a traumatic .

但是布尔什维主义试图进行彻底的解放，结果却变成了一种创伤。

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Even today, we don’t have a good theory of Stalinism.

即使在今天，我们也没有一个好的斯大林主义理论。

That’s what bothers me, not any return to it.

这就是困扰我的事情，没有任何回报。

I will give you — as a proof that it’s not, in this sense, nostalgia — I will give you another example.

我会给你——作为一个证明，从这个意义上来说，这不是怀旧——我会给你另一个例子。

I have such a memory.

我有这样的记忆。

I always tell my friends jokes about life in the army.

我总是给朋友讲关于军队生活的笑话。

I served in the mid ’70s in Yugoslav army.

我在 70 年代中期在南斯拉夫军队服役。

It was a nightmare, I know, but what fascinated me was, never did I learn so much about ideology and my politically correct fremdung.

我知道，这是一场噩梦，但令我着迷的是，我从来没有学到这么多关于意识形态和政治正确的言论。

For example, I wonder if some of you know .

例如，我想知道你们中的一些人是否知道。

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You don’t have here anymore military service in Norway.

在挪威你不再服兵役了。

But basically, on the one hand, Yugoslav army was, as all armies probably, absolutely homophobic.

但基本上，一方面，南斯拉夫军队可能像所有军队一样绝对仇视同性恋。

You were gay, you were beaten by fellow soldiers every night, discreetly, before being thrown out.

你是同性恋，每晚都会被战友们小心翼翼地殴打，然后被赶出去。

But at the same time, corruption, absolutely corruption.

但与此同时，腐败，绝对的腐败。

The entire life was totally penetrated by homosexual innuendos, and so on.

整个生活完全被同性恋影射所渗透，等等。

In my unit, we didn’t say, “Good morning”; we say, “I’ll smoke your prick.” “Thanks, and after, I finish with yours.” So you live these oldest paradoxes.

在我的单位，我们不会说“早上好”；我们会说“早上好”。我们说：“我要抽你的鸡巴。” “谢谢，然后我就结束你的了。”所以你生活在这些最古老的悖论之中。

What fascinates me about ideology is — and this is where Communism interests me — is how — this is why Yugoslavia, which was a relatively liberal Communism, interests me.

意识形态让我着迷的是——这就是共产主义让我感兴趣的地方——这就是为什么南斯拉夫这个相对自由的共产主义国家让我感兴趣。

Do you know that in Yugoslavia it wasn’t that we have our own ideology, self-managed socialism.

你知道吗，在南斯拉夫，我们并不是有自己的意识形态，自我管理的社会主义。

I mean this literally.

我的意思是字面意思。

Slovenia was a small country.

斯洛文尼亚是一个小国家。

We knew everybody else.

我们认识其他人。

Nomenklatura —

权贵阶层——

ŽIŽEK: Okay, but, but, but the lesson I learned there — I don’t care if you call it nostalgia — the lesson — and I will tell you where I see real nostalgia today — the lesson, for me, is how an ideology can function, not only even if you don’t believe in it, but it is prohibited to believe in it.

齐泽克：好的，但是，但是，但是我在那里学到的教训——我不在乎你是否称之为怀旧——这个教训——我会告诉你我今天在哪里看到真正的怀旧——对我来说，这个教训是意识形态如何发挥作用，不仅即使你不相信它，而且禁止相信它。

This was the beautiful paradox of ex-Yugoslavia.

这就是前南斯拉夫的美丽悖论。

I had two friends who were in the central committee of the Slovene Party.

我有两个朋友，他们是斯洛文尼亚党中央委员会的成员。

They lost their job.

他们失去了工作。

You know why?

你知道为什么吗？

Because they were stupid and took the ruling ideology too seriously.

因为他们太愚蠢了，把统治意识形态看得太重了。

But you know who are for me — change of topic, but along the same line — the true nostalgics today?

但你知道谁对我来说是——换个话题，但还是沿着同样的路线——今天真正的怀旧者？

That’s why I don’t like the novel — this will again hurt some of you — Margaret Atwood’s Handmaid’s Tale.

这就是为什么我不喜欢这部小说——这会再次伤害你们中的一些人——玛格丽特·阿特伍德的《使女的故事》。

This is, for me, true nostalgia.

对我来说，这是真正的怀旧。

It’s what Fredric Jameson called “nostalgia for the present.”

这就是弗雷德里克·詹姆森所说的“对当下的怀念”。

It paints this horrible near future.

它描绘了这个可怕的不久的将来。

It doesn’t raise the crucial question.

它没有提出关键问题。

But she’s still too fascinated by our permissive societies, and so on and so on.

但她仍然对我们宽容的社会如此着迷。

Sorry, go on.

抱歉，继续。

But now, I’d like to draw a comparison.

但现在我想做一个比较。

Take the writer who just won the Nobel Prize in literature, Peter Handke, right?

以刚刚获得诺贝尔文学奖的作家彼得·汉德克为例，对吧？

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: Half — mother.

齐伊泽克：一半——母亲。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: But I have no nostalgia.

齐伊泽克：但我没有怀旧之情。

For what do I have nostalgia?

我有什么值得留恋的？

ŽIŽEK: Okay, let’s go step by step.

ŽIŽEK：好吧，让我们一步一步来。

Handke —

汉德克—

ŽIŽEK: You mean university tenure?

ŽIŽEK：你是说大学终身教职吗？

ŽIŽEK: Let’s go step by step.

ŽIŽEK：让我们一步一步来。

First, Handke — my criticism of him was very specific.

首先，汉德克——我对他的批评非常具体。

ŽIŽEK: Before he got involved in what he got involved in, I didn’t like the game he played.

齐伊泽克：在他参与他所从事的事情之前，我不喜欢他玩的游戏。

For example, I remember his texts from 30 years ago, 40, before war, where he said in Austria everything is commodified.

例如，我记得他 30 年前、40 年前、战前的文字，他说在奥地利一切都商品化了。

You go to a store, every brand of milk has a name.

你去一家商店，每个品牌的牛奶都有一个名字。

You cross the border to poor Slovenia, it just has milk with no brand name and so on.

你越过边境来到贫穷的斯洛文尼亚，那里只有没有品牌的牛奶等等。

And what I hate is .

而我讨厌的是。

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We should agree even here.

即使在这里我们也应该达成一致。

ŽIŽEK: What I call — borrowing the term of my friend, another Austrian philosopher, Robert Pfaller — inter-passive authenticity.

齐伊泽克：我所说的——借用我的朋友、另一位奥地利哲学家罗伯特·普法勒（Robert Pfaller）的术语——相互被动的真实性。

You want to keep your good life in the West, but you like to be authentic through others.

你想在西方保持美好的生活，但你喜欢通过别人表现出真实的一面。

This is why we were very good.

这就是为什么我们表现得很好。

He was proud to refer to us Slovenes, Handke, insofar as we were the modest poor Communists.

他自豪地提到我们斯洛文尼亚人汉德克，因为我们是谦虚贫穷的共产党人。

The moment we wanted our own state, join European Union, we betrayed his dream.

当我们想要建立自己的国家、加入欧盟时，我们就背叛了他的梦想。

That’s why — maybe you know — in the text, I quote this wonderful saying by Gilles Deleuze, “Si vous êtes pris dans le rêve de l’autre, vous êtez foutu.”

这就是为什么——也许你知道——在文中，我引用了吉尔·德勒兹的这句精彩的话：“Si vous êtes pris dans le rêve de l’autre, vous êtez foutu。”

“If you are caught in another’s dream .

“如果你陷入了别人的梦中。

.

。

.” And that’s for me — we should agree here — the big problem of Western academic left.

”。对我来说，这就是西方学术左派的大问题——我们应该同意这一点。

They’re always searching for another place where things really happen.

他们总是在寻找另一个真正发生事情的地方。

When I was young, it was Cuba.

当我年轻的时候，那是古巴。

Then it was, a decade ago, Chavez, Venezuela, and so on and so on.

然后是十年前的查韦斯、委内瑞拉等等。

No!

不！

Nothing great happens elsewhere, and so on.

其他地方没有什么伟大的事情发生，等等。

And to my Serb friends, I declared that they will see, if they succeed too well, he will betray them also.

我对我的塞尔维亚朋友宣布，他们会看到，如果他们成功得太好，他也会背叛他们。

They will disappoint him.

他们会让他失望的。

This is what annoys me with Handke, if you ask me.

如果你问我的话，这就是汉德克让我恼火的地方。

But listen, talking about nostalgia — I’m sorry to tell you, but I’m not saying I was a great dissident.

但是听着，谈论怀旧——我很遗憾地告诉你，但我并不是说我是一个伟大的持不同政见者。

But now, I will say something arrogant: if there are not some great dissidents from Eastern Europe here, then probably I can venture a hypothesis that I did more for the disappearance of East European Communism than any of you in this room.

但现在，我要说一些傲慢的话：如果这里没有来自东欧的一些伟大的持不同政见者，那么我可能可以大胆地假设，我为东欧共产主义的消失所做的贡献比在座的任何人都多。

I was, for five years, unemployed.

我失业了五年。

I had to survive through parents and so on and so on.

我必须通过父母等等才能生存。

So I was there when it was needed.

所以当需要的时候我就在那里。

And I’m even a little bit proud to say that the role I played at that time is that — when you said we have problems, right-wing politicking, yes, we also do, but Slovenia is the only post-Yugoslav country where nationalists never took over.

我什至有点自豪地说​​，我当时扮演的角色是——当你说我们有问题时，右翼政治，是的，我们也有，但斯洛文尼亚是后南斯拉夫国家中唯一一个民族主义者从未接管的国家。

That, we did.

那，我们做到了。

I was at that time — it will shock you — member of a party called Liberal Democratic Party, and we did it.

当时我是——这会让你震惊——一个叫做自由民主党的政党的成员，我们做到了。

But you know what?

但你知道吗？

For me, again, I return to that —

对于我来说，我再次回到这一点——

ŽIŽEK: Okay, but please ask me that question —

齐伊泽克：好的，但请问我这个问题 -

ŽIŽEK: How will we deal with ecology?

ŽIŽEK：我们将如何应对生态？

You really think that with market, a little bit of debt, it can be dealt —

你真的认为有了市场，一点点债务就可以解决——

ŽIŽEK: We need more.

齐伊泽克：我们需要更多。

ŽIŽEK: I called it more Communism.

齐伊泽克：我称之为共产主义。

You know why?

你知道为什么吗？

People, idiots tell me — not you —

人们、白痴告诉我——不是你——

ŽIŽEK: — “Why don’t you call it socialism?” Everybody is a socialist today.

齐伊泽克：——“你为什么不称其为社会主义？”今天每个人都是社会主义者。

Bill Gates says he’s a socialist, and so on.

比尔·盖茨说他是社会主义者，等等。

It’s meaningless.

这是没有意义的。

Socialism basically means today you care for society.

社会主义基本上意味着今天你关心社会。

Hitler cared for society.

希特勒关心社会。

I don’t care; I just want to signal that, as you nicely said now, something a little bit more radical will be needed.

我不在乎；我只是想表明，正如您现在所说的那样，需要采取一些更激进的措施。

That’s all I’m saying.

这就是我要说的。

“Why don’t you call it socialism?” Everybody is a socialist today.

“你为什么不称其为社会主义？”今天每个人都是社会主义者。

Bill Gates says he’s a socialist, and so on.

比尔·盖茨说他是社会主义者，等等。

It’s meaningless.

这是没有意义的。

Socialism basically means today you care for society.

社会主义基本上意味着今天你关心社会。

Hitler cared for society.

希特勒关心社会。

I don’t care; I just want to signal that, as you nicely said now, something a little bit more radical will be needed.

我不在乎；我只是想表明，正如您现在所说的那样，需要采取一些更激进的措施。

That’s all I’m saying.

这就是我要说的。

.COWEN: Sometimes, I love your books.

.COWEN：有时候，我喜欢你的书。

I’ve read more than half of them, which is a lot —

我读过其中一半以上，数量很多——

ŽIŽEK: Crazy, madman, madman.

齐伊泽克：疯子，疯子，疯子。

Your Gulag sentence is redoubled now.

你的古拉格刑期现在加倍了。

ŽIŽEK: Here, maybe we have a misunderstanding because I will tell you why not this.

齐伊泽克：在这里，也许我们有误会，因为我会告诉你为什么不这样。

This may surprise you, the answer.

这个答案可能会让你感到惊讶。

ŽIŽEK: This was the point when, in my short speech — short!

齐伊泽克：在我简短的演讲中，这就是关键点——简短！

— when I said I despise .

——当我说我鄙视时。

.

。

.

。

For me, the model of catastrophe today .

对我来说，今天就是灾难的典范。

.

。

.

。

My friends, they cried, “Syntagma Square!

我的朋友们，他们喊道：“宪法广场！

We were there, one million people.

我们在那里，有一百万人。

We were all crying.

我们都哭了。

Wonderful.”

太棒了。”

I say, “Eff off.” What interests me — I hope we agree here — is what happens two months later —

我说：“滚吧。”我感兴趣的是——我希望我们在这里达成一致——是两个月后发生的事情——

ŽIŽEK: I’m all for this pragmatic, concrete problems.

ŽIŽEK：我完全支持这个务实、具体的问题。

I’m not waiting for a big revolution.

我不是在等待一场大革命。

I just am — now this may surprise you — for somebody who may sound so bombastic and pretentious like me, strange as it will sound, but I don’t know everything.

我只是——现在这可能会让你感到惊讶——对于像我这样听起来如此夸张和自命不凡的人来说，这听起来很奇怪，但我并不知道一切。

I’m immediately thinking in literal terms what to do.

我立即从字面上思考该怎么做。

So many factors.

因素太多了。

I don’t know enough.

我还不够了解。

I like these totally empirical, totally concrete, empirical problems.

我喜欢这些完全经验的、完全具体的经验问题。

I like paradoxes.

我喜欢悖论。

For example, would you agree .

例如，你同意吗？

.

。

.

。

Very briefly, maybe you found this in one of my books.

简而言之，也许您在我的一本书中找到了这一点。

I’m not quoting this as an argument for anti-capitalism.

我引用这一点并不是为了反资本主义。

I don’t know that, but there are some group experiments which fascinate me, which proves that you cannot reduce some forms of solidarity to money.

我不知道，但有一些让我着迷的小组实验，它们证明你不能将某些形式的团结减少到金钱上。

A Jewish friend from Israel told me this.

一位来自以色列的犹太朋友告诉我这个。

They had a kindergarten there, and —

他们在那里有一所幼儿园，而且——

ŽIŽEK: Really?

齐伊泽克：真的吗？

ŽIŽEK: Are we talking about when they made pay even less?

齐伊泽克：我们是在谈论他们什么时候付的钱更少吗？

ŽIŽEK: Really?

齐伊泽克：真的吗？

ŽIŽEK: The point is that I believe it’s surprisingly .

齐伊泽克：重点是我认为这令人惊讶。

.

。

.

。

When I talk about Communism and so on, my God, I’ve written texts from it, and now I go on into it .

当我谈论共产主义等等时，我的天啊，我已经写下了它的文字，现在我继续讲下去。

.

。

.

。

For me, Communism is just, as I emphasized, the name of a problem.

对我来说，正如我所强调的，共产主义只是一个问题的名称。

It’s not a solution.

这不是一个解决方案。

I will say something that will shock you.

我会说一些让你震惊的话。

I’m well aware — some of my Communist friends admitted it — even if we imagine something similar to Communism, the mega problem will be envy, and so on.

我很清楚——我的一些共产主义朋友也承认这一点——即使我们想象类似共产主义的东西，最大的问题将是嫉妒，等等。

Who is one of the great guys?

谁是伟大人物之一？

My God, the one who conducted theory according to leftist mythology.

天啊，按照左派神话来理论的人。

Not Pinochet.

不是皮诺切特。

The economist, free market, who advised Pinochet according —

为皮诺切特提供建议的经济学家、自由市场人士——

ŽIŽEK: No. No, no, no, the big guy.

齐伊泽克：不，不，不，不，那个大家伙。

ŽIŽEK: That was not my point, but one of those guys, when reproached with the fact, “But capitalism is unjust.

齐泽克：这不是我的观点，但其中一个人在受到这一事实的谴责时说：“但是资本主义是不公正的。

You work harshly, you fail, your neighbors .

你工作很辛苦，你失败了，你的邻居。

.

。

.” He said, “But that’s why capitalism works.

”。他说：“但这就是资本主义运作的原因。

Because,” he said, “your pride survives intact.”

因为，”他说，“你的骄傲完好无损。”

Let’s say we are two guys.

假设我们是两个人。

We live in a just society, and if there is no luck in injustice, this means if you are richer than me, I have to admit that I’m more stupid than you, but capitalist injustice is a very elegant argument.

我们生活在一个公正的社会，如果不公正没有运气，这意味着如果你比我富有，我不得不承认我比你更愚蠢，但资本主义的不公正是一个非常优雅的论点。

ŽIŽEK: Yes.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: That’s why —

齐伊泽克：这就是为什么——

ŽIŽEK: Now I will ask you — this is my big argument against happiness.

齐伊泽克：现在我要问你——这是我反对幸福的重要论点。

Do you agree, if you’re now like my Stasi observer, you have your list?

如果你现在像我的斯塔西观察员一样，你有自己的名单，你同意吗？

ŽIŽEK: You remember when I argue about happiness, against?

齐伊泽克：你还记得我争论幸福的时候，反对吗？

ŽIŽEK: I take as an example, and I was there — I talked with people — Husák’s Czechoslovakia in the ’70s.

齐伊泽克：我以 70 年代胡萨克领导的捷克斯洛伐克为例，我在那里与人们交谈过。

Material needs were basically satisfied.

物质需求基本得到满足。

Nobody was doing that, and as you said, you always had an excuse.

没有人这样做，正如你所说，你总是有借口。

There was too much rain or drought.

雨水过多或干旱。

Communists screwed it up.

共产党把事情搞砸了。

Then — very important — you had a nearby country, West Germany, which was the ideal other, but it was not too far away, and so on.

然后——非常重要——你有一个附近的国家，西德，这是理想的另一个国家，但距离不太远，等等。

That’s why I’m against happiness.

这就是我反对幸福的原因。

Happiness means no responsibility, relatively comfortable life because already after Khrushchev, basically, with Brézhnev — you must know this.

幸福意味着没有责任，相对舒适的生活，因为在赫鲁晓夫之后，基本上是勃列日涅夫 - 你必须知道这一点。

Communists in power made a pact with population.

掌权的共产党人与人民签订了一项协议。

They admitted, “We will never reach the West.” But the message was, “You leave us political power.

他们承认，“我们永远无法到达西方。”但传达的信息是，“你把政治权力留给了我们。

We leave you your private niche where you can enjoy your life.” And so on, and so on.

我们为您留下您的私人空间，让您可以享受生活。”等等，等等。

I think that Khrushchev was paradoxically — don’t you agree — the last guy who somehow, paradoxically .

我认为赫鲁晓夫是自相矛盾的——你不同意吗——最后一个以某种方式自相矛盾地……的人。

.

。

.

。

He was sincere in that — you must know it — United Nations speech where he —

他在联合国演讲中是真诚的——你必须知道，他——

ŽIŽEK: The last epoch, where the ruling nomenklatura half still believed in Communism.

齐伊泽克：最后一个时代，统治权贵阶层的一半仍然相信共产主义。

After that, it’s a totally different logic of emancipation.

之后，就是完全不同的解放逻辑了。

Some of the Communists in power — I love this in Yugoslavia — even refer to Marcuse, Frankfurt School.

一些掌权的共产党人——我喜欢南斯拉夫的这一点——甚至提到了马尔库塞的法兰克福学派。

They said, “But you know, in the West, you have commodification, alienation.

他们说：“但是你知道，在西方，存在着商品化和异化。

Here, you can take it easy, it’s more poor.” And so on, and so on.

这里，你可以放心，这里比较穷。”等等，等等。

Sorry, I talk too much.

抱歉，我话太多了。

ŽIŽEK: No, no.

齐伊泽克：不，不。

On Communist humor

论共产主义幽默

ŽIŽEK: For this, I will share your cell in Gulag program.

ŽIŽEK：为此，我将在古拉格计划中分享你的牢房。

If you think of today’s left, it is increasingly humorless.

如果你想想今天的左派，你会发现它越来越没有幽默感。

You’re not allowed to talk about so many things.

你不被允许谈论这么多事情。

On gender, your views are much more right-wing than left-wing.

在性别问题上，你的观点比左翼更右翼。

ŽIŽEK: That’s debatable.

齐伊泽克：这是有争议的。

I don’t —

我不——

ŽIŽEK: My answer to this, not critical of you, it’s a very simple one.

齐伊泽克：我对此的回答不是批评你，而是一个非常简单的答案。

My answer to this is, that’s why politically correct leftists are doing all possible to get Trump reelected, if you ask me.

我对此的回答是，如果你问我的话，这就是为什么政治正确的左派正在尽一切可能让特朗普连任。

A little bit more years on this, and we will be where we are.

再过几年，我们就会达到现在的水平。

But let me add, as a sign of friendship to you —

但让我补充一下，作为对你友谊的标志——

ŽIŽEK: — another bad-taste humor about you.

齐伊泽克：——又一个关于你的低俗幽默。

You are my friend.

你是我的朋友。

I like you, so when we Communists take over —

我喜欢你，所以当我们共产党人接管时——

ŽIŽEK: But as a special favor to you, you know what you got on Saturdays in Gulag?

齐伊泽克：但是作为对你的特殊恩惠，你知道周六在古拉格得到了什么吗？

On Sunday?

在星期天？

Some kind of disgusting soup, entrails, half-rotten fishes, and —

某种恶心的汤、内脏、半腐烂的鱼，还有——

ŽIŽEK: — potato.

齐伊泽克：——土豆。

ŽIŽEK: Don’t exaggerate.

齐伊泽克：别夸大其词。

ŽIŽEK: I will call from my Moscow center.

齐伊泽克：我会从莫斯科中心打电话。

ŽIŽEK: And isn’t it nice?

齐伊泽克：这不是很好吗？

You will get two plates of that soup.

你会得到两盘汤。

ŽIŽEK: Why are you calling it right wing?

齐伊泽克：你为什么称其为右翼？

ŽIŽEK: When I was young, this was left-wing humor.

齐伊泽克：当我年轻的时候，这是左翼幽默。

ŽIŽEK: Then so much worst for the Left.

齐伊泽克：那么对于左派来说，情况就更糟了。

ŽIŽEK: Maybe.

齐伊泽克：也许吧。

ŽIŽEK: Don’t count on that too much —

齐伊泽克：别指望太多——

ŽIŽEK: — because I still think that the crisis will hit us.

齐伊泽克：——因为我仍然认为危机将会袭击我们。

I see signs.

我看到迹象。

Here it comes, my pessimism.

我的悲观主义来了。

I think that the situation today with new right wing, blah, blah, blah.

我认为今天的情况是新右翼的情况，等等，等等。

And here, as we already talked about it, I am very open.

在这里，正如我们已经讨论过的那样，我非常开放。

For example, do they exist here?

例如，它们存在于此吗？

Not.

不是。

We talked about it — so-called incels, involuntary celibates.

我们讨论过这个问题——所谓的非自愿独身者。

Usually, they are decried as the worst women-hating Fascists.

通常，他们被谴责为最讨厌女性的法西斯分子。

No. They do something, I think, almost tragic.

不，我认为他们做了一些近乎悲剧性的事情。

They try to turn their failure — and already this is politically incorrect to state today — “You cannot address a woman, almost it’s prohibited saying she is beautiful.”

他们试图扭转自己的失败——今天这样说已经在政治上不正确了——“你不能称呼一个女人，几乎禁止说她很漂亮。”

You cannot say to a man, “You are not attractive enough.

你不能对一个男人说：“你不够有吸引力。

You cannot get any woman.” But that’s their experience, and I admire how, without any imminent violence, they turn this into a wonderful performance, especially clowncels and so on.

你得不到任何女人。”但这就是他们的经历，我很钦佩他们如何在没有任何迫在眉睫的暴力的情况下将其变成一场精彩的表演，尤其是小丑等。

It’s a wonderful way to survive a pretty terrifying predicament.

这是摆脱可怕困境的好方法。

And I don’t buy that they are automatically neofascists.

我不认为他们自动就是新法西斯主义者。

Concerning feminism — my reproach to #MeToo is not they are too radical, but it’s an upper-middle-class fake.

关于女权主义——我对#MeToo的谴责并不是它们太激进，而是它是中上层阶级的假货。

They don’t really .

他们真的不知道。

.

。

.

。

American feminism should first do — I hope we agree here — a little bit of a good old-fashioned Stalinist — you will say again nostalgia — self-criticism.

美国女权主义首先应该做——我希望我们在这里同意——一点点老式的斯大林主义者——你会再说一遍怀旧——自我批评。

There are so many things of American feminism.

美国女权主义有很多东西。

Do you know, for example, they supported American invasion of Iraq, that it will help women?

例如，你知道他们支持美国入侵伊拉克，这会帮助妇女吗？

Well, we know today that the situation of women today in Iraq is much worse than under Saddam.

好吧，我们今天知道，当今伊拉克妇女的处境比萨达姆统治下的情况要糟糕得多。

Saddam was a brutal despot, but relatively secular.

萨达姆是一个残暴的暴君，但相对世俗。

This is what bothers me.

这就是让我烦恼的事情。

Second problem.

第二个问题。

You will again say I’m conservative here.

你又会说我在这里很保守。

Fuck it, I don’t care.

他妈的，我不在乎。

The problem with political correctness is, for me, that questions which are questions of not manners in a superficial sense, but of customs .

对我来说，政治正确的问题不是表面意义上的礼仪问题，而是习俗问题。

.

。

.

。

Here I am, as you know, a Hegelian.

如你所知，我是一个黑格尔主义者。

Hegel always emphasized the bases that hold society together are unwritten rules, customs, and so on.

黑格尔总是强调将社会凝聚在一起的基础是不成文的规则、习俗等等。

Political correctness tries too much to legalize it.

政治正确性试图将其合法化。

You know, you are allowed to call this name.

你知道，你可以叫这个名字。

For example, let me give you a provocative example to provoke you.

比如说我给你举一个煽动性的例子来激怒你。

Once I problematize .

一旦我提出问题。

.

。

.

。

How is it called?

怎么称呼？

This idea of consent, even bureaucratic consent — you have to state it on a selfie, sign before mutual agreement.

这种同意的想法，甚至是官僚的同意——你必须在自拍照上声明，在双方同意之前签字。

And they say, “Oh, so I think we can rape women.

他们说：“哦，所以我认为我们可以强奸女性。

We don’t need consent.”

我们不需要同意。”

They totally misread me on the opposite.

他们完全误解了我的相反观点。

I just claim consent in itself is good, better than nothing, but it doesn’t solve the problem.

我只是声称同意本身是好的，比没有好，但这并不能解决问题。

There is so much pressure, violence which can survive the form of consent.

有如此多的压力和暴力可以在同意的形式中幸存下来。

Even if there is a formal consent, sexual exploitation can go on, and so on and so on.

即使有正式同意，性剥削也可以继续，等等。

My problem with LGBT+ is if I’m attacking them.

我对 LGBT+ 的问题是我是否攻击他们。

No!

不！

The problem I see there — I wonder if you agree — is this one.

我在那里看到的问题——我不知道你是否同意——就是这个。

I have a problem with identity politics.

我对身份政治有疑问。

The problem is that the idea of predominant .

问题在于思想占主导地位。

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。

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。

there are many LGBT+ who are extremely good theorist persons.

有很多LGBT+是非常优秀的理论家。

But the predominant view is the one of this one.

但占主导地位的观点是这一观点。

I simplify it: there is some kind of multiplicity of gender positions flourishing.

我将其简化为：某种性别立场的多样性正在蓬勃发展。

It’s almost the Maoist version — let the 100 flowers blossom, let 100 books, gender bi-sex, tri-sex.

这几乎是毛主义版本——让100朵花开花，让100本书，性别双性，三性。

And then evil patriarchy comes, imposes the binary division.

然后邪恶的父权制来了，强加了二元分裂。

“Let’s get rid of this.” And some of them even establish at least 30, 35 positions.

“让我们摆脱这个吧。”有的甚至设立了至少30、35个职位。

My God!

我的上帝！

And then they say Freud is outdated.

然后他们说弗洛伊德已经过时了。

If there is anything to learn from Freud, it’s that sexuality is in itself antagonist, traumatic, safety domains, and so on and so on.

如果说有什么值得向弗洛伊德学习的话，那就是性本身就是对抗性的、创伤性的、安全性的领域等等。

That’s my first point.

这是我的第一点。

What bothers me in LGBT+ .

LGBT+ 中什么让我烦恼。

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。

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。

it’s as if, if we get rid of social pressure, we get some kind of happy sexuality.

就好像，如果我们摆脱了社会压力，我们就会获得某种快乐的性行为。

The first presupposition that’s at doubt here is because you do what you desire.

这里第一个值得怀疑的预设是因为你做了你想做的事。

My God, didn’t they read Freud?

天哪，他们没读过弗洛伊德的书吗？

How do you know that you really desire what you think that you desire?

你怎么知道你真的渴望你认为你渴望的东西？

There are all these ambiguities here.

这里有所有这些含糊之处。

My second problem, and that’s the theoretical one .

我的第二个问题，这是理论上的问题。

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。

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。

Let’s move into Hegel a little bit.

让我们稍微了解一下黑格尔。

Maybe you know my line.

也许你知道我的台词。

LGBT+ .

同性恋者+。

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。

.

。

it’s all about “plus,” no?

这都是关于“加”，不是吗？

Because the ordinary LGBT theories are, for me, too British empiricist.

因为对我来说，普通的 LGBT 理论太英国经验主义了。

Plus is, for them, simply, “Maybe we don’t yet know all identities.

对他们来说，简单地说，“也许我们还不知道所有的身份。

Let’s leave it open.

让我们保持打开状态。

Maybe there will be other gender identities.

也许还会有其他的性别认同。

We will include them.” No, if I go this .

我们将把他们包括在内。”不，如果我去这个。

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。

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。

I forgot her name, I’m sorry, from an Australian LGBT theorist — very intelligent lady — who wrote to me, “But, what if plus itself is the subjective position?

抱歉，我忘记了她的名字，是一位澳大利亚 LGBT 理论家——非常聪明的女士——写给我的，“但是，如果加本身就是主观立场呢？

You can be a plus in the sense of, you know, at a distance, doubting.”

从某种意义上说，你可以成为一个优势，你知道，在远处怀疑。”

And I think this is feminine position at its stronger.

我认为这是更强大的女性地位。

“I will go to absolutely everyday level.” That’s why the most provocative woman’s answer is, “Why do you love me?” Because there is no answer to this question.

“我会达到绝对日常水平。”这就是为什么最具挑衅性的女人的回答是“你为什么爱我？”因为这个问题没有答案。

The moment you answer it, it’s not true love, by definition.

从你回答的那一刻起，根据定义，这不是真爱。

If I tell you why I love you, then it becomes matter of .

如果我告诉你我为什么爱你，那么这就变成了……的问题。

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。

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You know?

你知道？

So what I’m saying is that I just try to complicate things.

所以我想说的是，我只是试图让事情复杂化。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: You know what?

齐伊泽克：你知道吗？

Here, I may be too Marxist, but —

在这里，我可能过于马克思主义，但是——

ŽIŽEK: Isn’t it that Singapore, nonetheless, enjoys its role as a structural .

齐伊泽克：新加坡不是仍然享有其作为结构性国家的角色吗？

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。

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an exception?

例外吗？

I don’t think you can expand Singapore to Indonesia.

我不认为你可以将新加坡扩展到印度尼西亚。

Already, with Malaysia, there are problems, and so on, and so on.

马来西亚已经存在问题，等等。

ŽIŽEK: No, no, it’s stronger there because I read somewhere that Singapore port is even, at some point, it was the busiest port in the world, which means they are kind of a nodal point for the countries around them.

齐泽克：不，不，那里更强大，因为我在某处读到新加坡港口甚至在某种程度上是世界上最繁忙的港口，这意味着它们是周围国家的节点。

ŽIŽEK: Second thing, maybe I have here too much liberal sensitivity, but nonetheless, it’s a kind of .

齐伊泽克：第二件事，也许我在这里有太多的自由主义敏感性，但尽管如此，这是一种……。

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The way I would define Singapore — you may disagree — it’s fascism with a human face, a very human face.

我对新加坡的定义——你可能不同意——它是具有人性面孔的法西斯主义，非常人性化的面孔。

It’s consensual and so on, but there are so strict limits, even at the everyday ridiculous level.

这是双方同意的，但也有如此严格的限制，即使是在日常荒谬的水平上。

For example, I was there with my son, who wanted some chewing gum.

例如，我和儿子在一起，他想要一些口香糖。

We went to a store, and they laughed at me.

我们去了一家商店，他们嘲笑我。

“Are you crazy?

“你疯了吗？

You have to go to pharmacy.” We went to a pharmacy.

你得去药店。”我们去了一家药房。

They said, “Okay, where do you have doctor’s prescription?” I said, “No, I’m — ”

他们说：“好吧，你哪里有医生的处方？”我说：“不，我是——”

ŽIŽEK: No, no, what I’m saying —

齐伊泽克：不，不，我是说——

ŽIŽEK: Where, in Singapore?

齐伊泽克：在新加坡哪里？

ŽIŽEK: No, but again, don’t you see where my Communism comes?

齐泽克：不，但是你没看到我的共产主义来自哪里吗？

Seriously.

严重地。

It’s not where you think .

这不是你想的那样。

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。

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。

I don’t think there is any link with me clinging to the name Communism and my nostalgia.

我不认为我对共产主义这个名字的执着和我的怀旧有任何联系。

Those times, I’m well aware, were more or less a nightmare.

我很清楚，那些时光或多或少是一场噩梦。

Listen, one reason against nostalgia is that I was jobless, although — you may know this joke — something wonderful happened.

听着，反对怀旧的一个原因是我失业了，尽管——你可能知道这个笑话——发生了一些奇妙的事情。

When people asked me, “Which was the key factor for your relative success in the West?” I told them, “Communist oppression.” I applied for a job when I finish my postdoctoral studies in 1973, and this was the harsh line.

当人们问我：“你在西方取得相对成功的关键因素是什么？”我告诉他们，“共产党的压迫。” 1973年我博士后毕业后就申请了一份工作，这条线很严酷。

I couldn’t get the job, and then I was for a couple of years unemployed.

我找不到这份工作，然后我失业了几年。

I was looking for contacts in the West.

我一直在寻找西方的联系人。

Without Communist oppression, I would still be now an unknown professor in shitty city of Ljubljana, Slovenia.

如果没有共产党的压迫，我现在仍然是斯洛文尼亚卢布尔雅那这个肮脏城市的一名无名教授。

As far —

到目前为止——

On right-wing rock music

论右翼摇滚乐

ŽIŽEK: They’re my friends.

齐伊泽克：他们是我的朋友。

My God, I’m with them from late ’80s —

天哪，我从 80 年代末就和他们在一起了——

ŽIŽEK: — and now, things get complicated there.

齐伊泽克：——现在，事情变得复杂了。

You know why?

你知道为什么吗？

Because many leftists who support them are nonetheless afraid.

因为许多支持他们的左派人士仍然感到害怕。

ŽIŽEK: Okay, they are staging totalitarian rituals.

齐伊泽克：好吧，他们正在上演极权主义仪式。

What if some people will take it seriously?

如果有人认真对待怎么办？

And so on.

等等。

ŽIŽEK: No, no, I wanted to say another unsettling thing.

齐伊泽克：不不，我想说另一件令人不安的事情。

I can tell you, from my personal contact with Laibach —

根据我与莱巴赫的个人接触，我可以告诉你——

ŽIŽEK: — they don’t mean it as an ironic spectacle.

齐伊泽克：——他们并不是说这是一个具有讽刺意味的奇观。

They are very serious in their harsh line.

他们的严厉路线非常严肃。

That’s what I like about them.

这就是我喜欢他们的地方。

They are not, “Don’t be afraid, we are not really totalitarians, is just one big social game.” And so on, and so on.

他们不是，“别害怕，我们不是真正的极权主义者，只是一场大型社交游戏。”等等，等等。

But at a certain point, I didn’t want to join them because they wanted me, you probably know, two years ago, when they went to —

但在某个时候，我不想加入他们，因为他们想要我，你可能知道，两年前，当他们去——

ŽIŽEK: North Korea.

齐伊泽克：朝鲜。

No, it will be too much.

不，会太多。

ŽIŽEK: I didn’t want to do —

齐伊泽克：我不想做——

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

No, but nonetheless, you know what was so interesting with Laibach?

不，但尽管如此，你知道莱巴赫的有趣之处是什么吗？

Here you have the complexity of ideological process.

这里有意识形态过程的复杂性。

All this fear — will they be manipulated by radical right?

所有这些恐惧——他们会被激进右翼操纵吗？

And so on.

等等。

They never were.

他们从来都不是。

Whenever they are popular, it’s never the Right .

每当他们流行的时候，它从来都不是右派。

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。

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。

I know what the right-wingers, at least in Europe, are listening to.

我知道右翼分子（至少在欧洲）正在听什么。

It’s not the German version of Laibach.

这不是德国版的莱巴赫。

There was some influence.

有一定的影响。

Do you know Rammstein, the group?

你知道德国拉姆斯坦乐队吗？

ŽIŽEK: “Links.” They are Left, and it’s a beautiful Right thing to do for the Left to appropriate this horrible totalitarian-sounding stuff, and so on, and so on.

齐伊泽克：“链接。”他们是左派，对左派来说，利用这种听起来可怕的极权主义的东西，是一件美好的正确的事情，等等。

The right-wingers that I know — they think beautiful romantic songs, apolitical usually, and so on, and so on.

我认识的右翼分子——他们认为美妙的浪漫歌曲通常与政治无关，等等。

I get your point, of course, when you said, “Something more will be needed.” Eff you.

当然，当你说“还需要更多的东西”时，我明白你的意思。哎呀你。

What more?

还有什么？

Tell me.

告诉我。

You say, “No, no, no.” I know ecology and so on, digital control.

你说：“不，不，不。”我了解生态学等等，数字控制。

Have you any idea what more will be needed?

您知道还需要什么吗？

What do you think, that ecological party will be elected?

您认为生态党会当选吗？

I hope so, maybe.

我希望如此，也许吧。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah, but on the other hand, my only, not criticism of Norway is that .

齐伊泽克：是的，但另一方面，我对挪威的唯一而非批评是……。

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。

.

。

You have oil, gas, and so on.

你有石油、天然气等等。

I would like to learn from Norway, but I would like even more if you give me your natural resources.

我想向挪威学习，但如果您给我您的自然资源，我会希望得到更多。

ŽIŽEK: I have one argument for you here.

齐伊泽克：我在这里为你提出一个论点。

The good thing about Singapore is that they have no natural resources, no?

新加坡的好处是他们没有自然资源，不是吗？

ŽIŽEK: Refining, yes, but no —

齐伊泽克：精炼，是的，但不是——

ŽIŽEK: But what made it?

齐伊泽克：但是是什么造成的呢？

Is it kind of one incidental conjunction?

这是一种偶然的连词吗？

That’s what I would have maybe said about Singapore, of this Chinese proclivity to hard work and English legislation, or what?

这就是我对新加坡、中国人勤奋工作和英国立法的看法，或者什么？

There must have been some unique combination there.

那里一定有某种独特的组合。

ŽIŽEK: When?

齐伊泽克：什么时候？

Which government?

哪个政府？

Are you talking about —

你是在说——

ŽIŽEK: Lee Kuan Yew.

齐伊泽克：李光耀。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: But what’s, then, your problem with China?

齐伊泽克：那么，您对中国的问题是什么？

Because do you know?

因为你知道吗？

You must know this, that at the beginning, for history forums, Deng Xiaoping came to Singapore.

大家要知道这一点，当初为了历史论坛，邓小平来到了新加坡。

Everybody, everywhere there — they showed and said Singapore should be a model for —

那里的每个人、每个地方——他们展示并说新加坡应该成为——

ŽIŽEK: Here, now, we touch the true problem.

齐伊泽克：现在，我们触及真正的问题。

Sorry, now I’m not losing time.

抱歉，现在我不会浪费时间了。

You know where I am a pessimist?

你知道我哪里悲观吗？

Some of my liberal friends tell me, “Oh, China achieved so much.

我的一些自由派朋友告诉我，“哦，中国取得了很多成就。

With full political liberalization, they would have achieved even more.” I doubt it.

如果政治完全自由化，他们会取得更大的成就。”我对此表示怀疑。

ŽIŽEK: I love them.

齐伊泽克：我爱他们。

On US politics

论美国政治

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: He did.

齐伊泽克：他做到了。

He did it.

他做到了。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: Sorry, who is —

齐伊泽克：抱歉，谁是——

ŽIŽEK: I’m so sorry, I don’t know how to pronounce that name.

ŽIŽEK：很抱歉，我不知道这个名字怎么发音。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: Okay, we don’t have time to do it, but let me be specific.

ŽIŽEK：好的，我们没有时间这样做，但让我具体说一下。

The Democrats who go for identity politics — already Hillary tried this against Donald Trump.

追求身份政治的民主党人——希拉里已经尝试用这种方法来对抗唐纳德·特朗普。

ŽIŽEK: No, against Bernie Sanders.

齐伊泽克：不，是针对伯尼·桑德斯。

ŽIŽEK: That’s why I admire Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who said something very ingenious — you must have read it — who said recently, endorsing Bernie Sanders, “I endorse him, not in spite of him being an old white man, but because.”

齐泽克：这就是为什么我钦佩亚历山大·奥卡西奥-科尔特斯，她说了一些非常巧妙的话——你一定读过——他最近在支持伯尼·桑德斯时说，“我支持他，不是因为他是一个老白人，而是因为。”

Her idea was this one: Bernie Sanders can get us .

她的想法是这样的：伯尼·桑德斯可以打败我们。

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Center Democrats are obsessed — if you go too much to the left, we lose these centrist votes, and so on.

中间派民主党人很着迷——如果你过于左倾，我们就会失去这些中间派选票，等等。

Trump did exactly the opposite.

特朗普的做法恰恰相反。

I think the target of the Democratic Party should be those impoverished, white, half-unemployed workers who otherwise would have voted for Trump, not those middle-of-the-road, and so on, and so on.

我认为民主党的目标应该是那些贫困的白人半失业工人，否则他们会投票给特朗普，而不是那些中间道路等等。

Trump is a genius here, how he broke all the rules and so on because do you remember how often in his campaign, when he said something, I know, preposterous, horrible, liberal press said, “Oh, Trump just shot himself, and he’s over.” And so on.

特朗普在这里是个天才，他如何打破了所有规则等等，因为你还记得在他的竞选活动中，当他说一些话时，我知道，荒谬的、可怕的自由派媒体经常说，“哦，特朗普刚刚开枪自杀了，他就完了。”等等。

No!

不！

It’s not over.

事情还没有结束。

Trump proved that sometimes the only way to a majority is through extremes.

特朗普证明，有时获得多数席位的唯一途径是走极端。

It’s not always that center works.

中心并不总是有效。

ŽIŽEK: But it was.

齐伊泽克：但确实如此。

They may lose, but it was revitalized.

他们可能会输，但又重新焕发了活力。

And then there’s a sense of “Well, I can attach myself to Communism.

然后会有一种感觉：“好吧，我可以依附于共产主义。

I have a particular theory that will work out some way.

我有一个特定的理论，它会以某种方式起作用。

It will tell us we always need more when it comes to ecology.” But that, to me, seems like the Trump prediction.

它会告诉我们，在生态方面，我们总是需要更多。”但对我来说，这似乎是特朗普的预测。

We know from the work of Philip Tetlock, it’s just very hard to predict the future, so why not stand up —

我们从菲利普·泰洛克的研究中知道，预测未来是非常困难的，所以为什么不站起来——

ŽIŽEK: I’m the first to agree —

齐伊泽克：我是第一个同意的——

ŽIŽEK: Yeah.

齐伊泽克：是的。

ŽIŽEK: Okay.

齐伊泽克：好的。

ŽIŽEK: She’s a contemporary Communist for me, fully.

齐伊泽克：对我来说，她完全是当代共产主义者。

You know why?

你知道为什么吗？

ŽIŽEK: No, but you know what?

齐伊泽克：不，但你知道吗？

I know.

我知道。

You know what I like about her?

你知道我喜欢她什么吗？

ŽIŽEK: You know what I like about Greta Thunberg?

齐伊泽克：你知道我喜欢 Greta Thunberg 哪一点吗？

First, you remember, some media in Europe tried to blame her parents.

首先，你记得，欧洲的一些媒体试图责怪她的父母。

“They are manipulating her.” My answer was, “I hope they do.

“他们在操纵她。”我的回答是：“我希望他们这样做。

I hope.” Why shouldn’t we, the Left, also manipulate?

我希望如此。”为什么我们左派不应该也进行操纵呢？

But what I like is precisely .

但我喜欢的恰恰是。

.

。

.

。

I didn’t like her at the beginning, you remember, when she played that innocent girl who is telling us that the emperor is naked.

你还记得吗，一开始我不喜欢她，当时她扮演那个告诉我们皇帝赤身裸体的天真女孩。

But did you notice how, in the last year, she has this almost a little bit of diabolic, aggressive smile.

但你有没有注意到，在过去的一年里，她的笑容几乎有点邪恶、咄咄逼人。

I like the mean Greta Thunberg.

我喜欢刻薄的格蕾塔·桑伯格。

I don’t like the good, innocent girl.

我不喜欢这个善良、天真的女孩。

But what I like is precisely .

但我喜欢的恰恰是。

.

。

.

。

I didn’t like her at the beginning, you remember, when she played that innocent girl who is telling us that the emperor is naked.

你还记得吗，一开始我不喜欢她，当时她扮演那个告诉我们皇帝赤身裸体的天真女孩。

But did you notice how, in the last year, she has this almost a little bit of diabolic, aggressive smile.

但你有没有注意到，在过去的一年里，她的笑容几乎有点邪恶、咄咄逼人。

I like the mean Greta Thunberg.

我喜欢刻薄的格蕾塔·桑伯格。

I don’t like the good, innocent girl.

我不喜欢这个善良、天真的女孩。

I also refer to her as this .

我也这样称呼她。

.

。

.

。

For me, she is deeply feminine, but not the usual notion of femininity promoted by the media today — holistic dialogue.

对我来说，她非常女性化，但不是当今媒体所宣扬的女性气质的通常概念——整体对话。

No, no, no, she’s quite dogmatic, insistent.

不，不，不，她很教条，很坚持。

That’s what we need today, and I don’t need anything more.

这就是我们今天所需要的，我不需要更多。

Okay, we can debate the name, but I think that what she’s doing is definitely Communist today for me.

好吧，我们可以讨论这个名字，但我认为她所做的事情对我来说绝对是共产主义的。

Greta Thunberg, Assange, and so on.

格蕾塔·桑伯格、阿桑奇等等。

Incidentally, do you know the story?

顺便问一下，你知道这个故事吗？

I must repeat it to you.

我必须向你重复一遍。

I hope all of you don’t know it.

希望大家都不知道。

When I visited him two weeks ago in prison, it’s wonderful.

两周前我去监狱探望他时，感觉棒极了。

I couldn’t believe it.

我简直不敢相信。

I’m sorry if some of you know it.

如果你们中有些人知道的话，我很抱歉。

I was sitting close to him like this, in open space at the table.

我就这样坐在他旁边，坐在桌子旁边的空地上。

A friend brought me a cup of coffee, plastic cover.

一位朋友给我带来了一杯咖啡，塑料盖。

I took the cover off and drank some coffee and put coffee back on the table.

我把盖子打开，喝了一些咖啡，然后把咖啡放回桌子上。

In two seconds, literally, a guard was there, very gentle, soft, no terror.

两秒钟之内，名副其实的守卫就出现了，非常温和、柔和，没有任何恐惧。

Just said, “Please, sir, put the plastic cover back on the coffee.” I asked afterwards — I didn’t want to cause problems there — “Why?”

只是说：“先生，请把塑料盖放回咖啡上。”我后来问——我不想在那里引起问题——“为什么？”

They told me, “You were sitting opposite Assange, an evil man.” It was for my own good, they told me.

他们告诉我，“你坐在阿桑奇对面，他是一个邪恶的人。”他们告诉我，这是为了我好。

They wanted to block the possibility that evil man like Assange will grab the boiling coffee and throw it into my face, and so on.

他们想要阻止像阿桑奇这样的邪恶之人抓住煮沸的咖啡并将其扔到我脸上的可能性，等等。

No, but I think, okay, these are my heroes today.

不，但我想，好吧，这些是我今天的英雄。

ŽIŽEK: No, there is no alternate here.

齐伊泽克：不，这里没有替代方案。

Greta Thunberg exists —

格蕾塔·桑伯格存在——

ŽIŽEK: If I will .

齐伊泽克：如果我愿意的话。

.

。

.

。

No —

不——

ŽIŽEK: First, first —

齐伊泽克：首先，首先——

ŽIŽEK: Don’t mention Singapore.

齐伊泽克：别提新加坡了。

Its equator is too hot for me.

它的赤道对我来说太热了。

If I retire — and I’m not lying to you now — two, three times I’ve written about it.

如果我退休——我现在没有对你撒谎——我已经写过两三遍了。

I want to retire to the part of Norway which is not even Norway.

我想退休到挪威的一个地方，那里甚至不是挪威。

I’m not kidding.

我不是在开玩笑。

I wrote about it.

我写过相关内容。

It’s my ideal place — Longyearbyen, Svalbard Island.

这是我理想的地方——斯瓦尔巴群岛朗伊尔城。

ŽIŽEK: That’s my ideal place.

齐伊泽克：那是我理想的地方。

It’s half empty, nothing there, and it’s very good prospects for survival, because you know the joke — it’s prohibited to die there because —

它是半空的，那里什么也没有，而且它的生存前景非常好，因为你知道这个笑话——禁止死在那里，因为——

ŽIŽEK: No, no, but quite seriously.

齐伊泽克：不，不，但是非常认真。

ŽIŽEK: Why do you call it right-wing?

齐伊泽克：你为什么称其为右翼？

ŽIŽEK: It’s the humor of my youth, my God.

齐伊泽克：这是我年轻时的幽默，天哪。

ŽIŽEK: No, no, I’m not trying to make cheap propaganda for myself, but I did try to practice this — you know what, one of my books, which was not full failure, but close to a failure, my rewriting of Antigone.

齐泽克：不，不，我并不是想为自己做廉价的宣传，但我确实尝试过这样做——你知道吗，我的一本书，不是完全失败，而是接近失败，我重写了安提戈涅。

Did you read that book?

你读过那本书吗？

ŽIŽEK: Ah, I love that one.

齐伊泽克：啊，我喜欢那个。

You know what I did?

你知道我做了什么吗？

I took its precisely alternate scenario.

我采用了完全相反的场景。

I took — and you will not like the third version — I took Antigone, but you should like it because it’s very pragmatic.

我拍了——你不会喜欢第三个版本——我拍了安提戈涅，但你应该喜欢它，因为它非常务实。

I took first its pure alternate logic, like Kieślowski’s film and that Run Lola Run, and so on.

我首先采用的是纯粹的替代逻辑，比如基斯洛夫斯基的电影和《罗拉快跑》等等。

First, I took the story you have in Sophocles, which incidentally is not the original story.

首先，我引用了索福克勒斯的故事，顺便说一句，这不是原始故事。

The original Greek myth is totally different.

最初的希腊神话完全不同。

Okay, you know what happens.

好吧，你知道会发生什么。

I will not repeat then.

那我就不再重复了。

Then, at the moment of her big conflict in the middle play with Creon, I play alternate reality.

然后，在她与克瑞翁玩中间发生重大冲突的那一刻，我玩替代现实。

She wins.

她赢了。

Creon says, “Okay, you are right.

克瑞翁说：“好吧，你说得对。

Let’s allow the burial.” In my scenario, what happens is that, if Creon suspected there is again a revolt, again the traitor, the whole of Thebes, the city, is in ruins.

让我们允许埋葬吧。”在我的设想中，发生的情况是，如果克瑞翁怀疑再次发生叛乱，叛徒再次出现，整个底比斯这座城市就会变成废墟。

At the end of the second version, she walks desperate in the city and cries like that famous hit line of Antigone, “I was created for love, not war.” And the chorus answers her, “Fuck you, bitch, but it’s what you created.”

在第二个版本的结尾，她在城市中绝望地行走，并像安提戈涅那句著名的台词一样哭泣：“我是为爱而生，而不是战争。”副歌回答她：“去你的，婊子，但这就是你创造的。”

Then comes the third version —

接下来是第三个版本——

ŽIŽEK: Okay, yeah.

齐伊泽克：好的，是的。

The third version that you will like, I hope, is while Creon and Antigone are fighting, the chorus steps over, said, “You are both traitors, ruining the city.

我希望你会喜欢的第三个版本是，当克瑞翁和安提戈涅正在战斗时，合唱团走过来说，“你们都是叛徒，毁了这座城市。

You should both be liquidated.” And they establish a kind of Jacobin terror, and they’re both liquidated.

你们俩都应该被清算。”他们建立了一种雅各宾恐怖，但他们都被清算了。

Nobody likes this.

没有人喜欢这个。

I don’t care.

我不在乎。

ŽIŽEK: Thank you.

齐伊泽克：谢谢。

But don’t you suspect me — I still have zero seconds — but don’t you suspect me?

但你难道不怀疑我吗——我还有零秒——但你难道不怀疑我吗？

Don’t you trust me?

你不相信我吗？

That fear that now I’m talking soft, but if I get too close to power, you will see the Stalinist side of me.

担心现在我说话很温和，但如果我太接近权力，你就会看到我斯大林主义的一面。

You don’t suspect me of really being a bad guy.

你不会怀疑我真的是个坏人。

You trust me.

你相信我。

ŽIŽEK: What plenitude?

齐伊泽克：什么充实？

ŽIŽEK: Oh, yeah, of ideas.

齐伊泽克：哦，是的，有很多想法。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

And I admire this, I am in some ways similar.

我很欣赏这一点，我在某些方面很相似。

ŽIŽEK: I will tell you a story, very brief one.

齐伊泽克：我会告诉你一个故事，非常简短的故事。

Don’t be afraid, no time.

别怕，没时间。

That’s what I like, and even I hope you will like this.

这就是我喜欢的，甚至我希望你会喜欢这个。

My favorite passage in Marx is — maybe you know it — 1870 Paris Commune, there was a dream that maybe there will be European revolution.

我最喜欢马克思的一段话——也许你知道——1870年的巴黎公社，有一个梦想，也许会有欧洲革命。

And Marx wrote a letter to Engels — I love him for that — where he says, “Oh, my God, they want a revolution now, but I haven’t yet finished The Capital.

马克思给恩格斯写了一封信——我为此爱他——他在信中说：“哦，天哪，他们现在想要一场革命，但我还没有完成《资本论》。

Not now, I have to finish my book.” That’s the true spirit that I —

不是现在，我必须完成我的书。”这就是我真正的精神——

Q&A

问答

But, before we get to that, we have four questions on video, at least one of which is too long.

但是，在此之前，我们有四个关于视频的问题，至少其中一个太长。

I’m told they’re friends, your friends, but you need more enemies, perhaps.

有人告诉我他们是朋友，你的朋友，但也许你需要更多的敌人。

ŽIŽEK: Absolutely, I’m still here.

齐伊泽克：当然，我还在这里。

Questions from the video — first video, please.

视频中的问题 - 第一个视频，请。

Second, if you were to rewrite Marx’s critical rendition of economics for the 21st century, what components of it would you prioritize updating, revising, scrapping, or replacing?

其次，如果你要重写马克思对21世纪经济学的批判性诠释，你会优先更新、修改、废弃或替换其中的哪些部分？

What would be some of the distinctive features of your own contemporary critique of political economy?

您对当代政治经济学的批判有哪些独特之处？

ŽIŽEK: They are all my friends.

齐伊泽克：他们都是我的朋友。

I know who will be, so I will .

我知道谁会是，所以我会的。

.

。

.

。

On the other hand, these are difficult theoretical questions.

另一方面，这些都是困难的理论问题。

We need another two hours.

我们还需要两个小时。

I will just say that yes, I agree with — I cannot go into it now — with Adrian’s point, how the relationship between ideology, economic infrastructural change, and so on, and so on.

我只想说，是的，我同意——我现在不能谈——阿德里安的观点，即意识形态、经济基础设施变化等之间的关系如何。

But all I can do now is point out what he knows and both of us know, that already in Marx — and that’s one of the critical points, that we need to read Marx — what I really admire in Marx, because it’s not what you idiots — not you personally — but the thing is his theory of commodity fetishism.

但我现在能做的就是指出他所知道的、我们俩都知道的，这些已经在马克思那里了——这是我们需要阅读马克思的关键点之一——我真正钦佩马克思的地方，因为这不是你们这些白痴——不是你们个人——而是他的商品拜物教理论。

It’s not simply, “We believe in fetishists.” No!

这不仅仅是“我们相信恋物癖”。不！

Marx’s theory is that we bourgeois subjects, in our actual life, we are usually pragmatic Anglo-Saxon utilitarians.

马克思的理论是，我们资产阶级主体，在我们的实际生活中，我们通常是务实的盎格鲁撒克逊功利主义者。

The fetishist inversion is in how we act our reality structure.

拜物教倒置在于我们如何行动我们的现实结构。

Marx has a wonderful theory where it’s not this Enlightenment vision — we dream illusions; the other thing is real life.

马克思有一个精彩的理论，但它不是启蒙运动的愿景——我们梦想幻想；另一件事是现实生活。

No!

不！

We can be very .

我们可以很.

.

。

.

。

To repeat a joke that I’m sure you all know, but it renders perfectly the point — that story that I always repeat: Niels Bohr and the horseshoe.

重复一个我相信你们都知道的笑话，但它完美地表达了我经常重复的那个故事：尼尔斯·玻尔和马蹄铁。

Niels Bohr had a horseshoe at his country house across the entrance door, superstitious item, and a friend asked me, “Why do you have it there?

尼尔斯·玻尔（Niels Bohr）在他的乡间别墅的大门对面放了一个马蹄铁，这是一种迷信的物品，一位朋友问我：“你为什么把它放在那里？

Aren’t you a scientist?

你不是科学家吗？

Do you believe in it?” You know what’s Niels Bohr’s answer, “Of course I don’t believe in it, but I have it there because I was told that it works, even if you don’t believe in it.”

你相信吗？你知道尼尔斯·玻尔的回答是什么，“我当然不相信它，但我把它放在那里，因为我被告知它有效，即使你不相信它。”

That’s how ideology works today.

这就是今天意识形态的运作方式。

At this level, the extent — and maybe you would agree with this — the lesson of Marx is that that’s why, interestingly enough, commodity fetishism — he never calls it ideology because it’s something very strange — it is a system of belief and so on, but objectifies central part of infrastructure itself.

在这个层面上，也许你会同意这一点，马克思的教训是，有趣的是，这就是为什么商品拜物教——他从不称其为意识形态，因为它是一种非常奇怪的东西——它是一种信仰体系等等，但将基础设施本身的核心部分客观化。

Along those lines, I would say we have to go further than Marx, and so on, and so on.

沿着这些思路，我想说我们必须比马克思走得更远，等等。

Mostly, thinking about your editions of collective works of Lenin, different volumes that you’ve produced with Lenin’s works, and in some of your events, also your event with Jordan Peterson.

主要是想想你对列宁集体作品的版本，你用列宁作品制作的不同卷，以及你的一些活动，还有你与乔丹·彼得森的活动。

And so, my sense is that, for the most part, you work within the Communist tradition, in addition to Hegel and Lacan, but yet sometimes it seems like your position is that every part of the 20th century experience has to be erased, has to be forgotten, has to be overcome, that we go back to the beginning, and we don’t need to use anything that we learned in the 20th century.

所以，我的感觉是，除了黑格尔和拉康之外，你在很大程度上是在共产主义传统中工作，但有时你的立场似乎是20世纪经验的每一部分都必须被抹去，必须被遗忘，必须被克服，我们回到起点，我们不需要使用我们在20世纪学到的任何东西。

And other times, it seems like you’re precisely actually learning from the 20th century and using some of the writings of Lenin and the achievements and the examples from European history in the 20th century.

而有的时候，你又好像实际上是在向20世纪学习，利用列宁的一些著作以及20世纪欧洲历史上的成就和例子。

So I’m hoping that you might clarify how you see the potential for Communist politics today — not just Communist philosophy, but Communist politics today, what kind of organizational forums you think it requires, and whether or not there really is a potential in the Communist movement.

所以我希望你能澄清你如何看待当今共产主义政治的潜力——不仅仅是共产主义哲学，还有今天的共产主义政治，你认为它需要什么样的组织论坛，以及共产主义运动是否真的有潜力。

Maybe another way to say this is, how do you imagine the end of capitalism?

也许另一种说法是，你如何想象资本主义的终结？

ŽIŽEK: Again, another two-hour-answer question.

ŽIŽEK：又是一个需要两个小时回答的问题。

First, I didn’t — my God, I’m not crazy — I didn’t edit collected works of Lenin.

首先，我没有——天哪，我没有疯——我没有编辑列宁文集。

I haven’t read them, never.

我没读过它们，从来没有。

What interested me is Lenin, at the very precise moment, what fascinates me in Lenin — and I said this in both of my introductions to some texts — that first, Lenin’s time is over.

让我感兴趣的是列宁，在非常精确的时刻，列宁让我着迷的地方——我在一些文本的介绍中都说过这一点——首先，列宁的时代已经结束了。

I don’t play the boring Trotskyite game of this crazy dream: “Oh, if only Lenin were to survive two years longer, he would have made it back to beat Trotsky.

我不会玩这个疯狂梦想的无聊托洛茨基游戏：“哦，如果列宁能再活两年，他就会回来击败托洛茨基。

Stalin would be sidestepped,” and so on.

斯大林将被回避，”等等。

No!

不！

The deadlock was there from the beginning.

僵局从一开始就存在。

What interests me in Lenin — and maybe that’s what we need today — is this totally pragmatic voluntarist spirit.

列宁让我感兴趣的地方——也许这就是我们今天所需要的——是这种完全务实的唯意志主义精神。

Isn’t it clear that in 1917, it was a total mess?

难道1917年的时候还不清楚吗？

Lenin often didn’t know what to do.

列宁常常不知道该怎么办。

Some even liberal Communists praised his state and revolution, but what he says there is something that he immediately abandoned then.

甚至一些自由派共产党人也赞扬他的国家和革命，但他所说的有一些东西他当时就立即放弃了。

What interests me is, especially Lenin in ’21, ’22 — and this was the big failure of the October Revolution.

我感兴趣的是，特别是21、22年的列宁——这是十月革命的重大失败。

They want the civil war.

他们想要内战。

And then, it would have been my moment, “Okay, now it’s everyday life, invent new forums if you can.” They failed, but Lenin was at least the one who said openly, “Our situation is totally desperate; we don’t have any formula.”

然后，这就是我的时刻，“好吧，现在是日常生活，如果可以的话，发明新的论坛。”他们失败了，但列宁至少公开表示：“我们的处境完全绝望；我们没有任何办法。”

He didn’t have any trust in the future.

他对未来没有任何信心。

He saw this total openness.

他看到了这种完全的开放。

That’s what fascinates me, but I’m not preaching in any sense the return to it, so my idea — unfortunately, I’m here maybe a little bit more — let’s call it pessimist.

这就是让我着迷的地方，但我并没有在任何意义上宣扬回归它，所以我的想法——不幸的是，我在这里可能有点多——让我们称之为悲观主义。

Incidentally, in this metaphor of returning to zero level, I quote Lenin, who wrote in ’21, ’22, a wonderful text, where he said nothing worked.

顺便说一句，在这个回到零水平的比喻中，我引用了列宁，他在21年、22年写了一篇精彩的文章，他说没有任何作用。

Then he said, “It’s not that we should stabilize our achievements, but we should return to the zero level, begin from nowhere.”

然后他说：“不是说我们要稳定我们的成绩，而是我们应该回到零的水平，从无到有。”

And quoting that, but also you mentioned the horrible .

引用这一点，但你也提到了可怕的。

.

。

.

。

the fact that the only livable Communism today — Communism in the formal sense, the Chinese one — means ecological problems, more digital control and so on, and so on.

事实上，当今唯一适宜居住的共产主义——正式意义上的共产主义，中国的共产主义——意味着生态问题、更多的数字控制等等。

We have to begin in some sense from the zero.

从某种意义上说，我们必须从零开始。

Lenin already did this, not just as a good direction.

列宁已经这样做了，而不仅仅是一个好的方向。

If you are a dogmatic Marxist, you can show that Lenin totally overturned Marx.

如果你是一个教条主义的马克思主义者，你可以证明列宁完全推翻了马克思。

In this sense, Lenin was not the one of the fidelity to Marx.

从这个意义上说，列宁并不是马克思的忠实者。

He pretended to be, but you know how religious revolutions also work.

他假装是，但你知道宗教革命也是如何运作的。

All great revolution proclaims itself return to origins.

一切伟大的革命都宣称自己要回归本源。

Martin Luther, the greatest original — “Oh, we just want to return to the original Bible.” And so on.

马丁·路德，最伟大的原创者——“哦，我们只想回到最初的圣经。”等等。

So, no. I think, again, that we have to, with all objective study and so on, see the good, bad sides.

所以，不。我再次认为，我们必须通过所有客观的研究等，看到好的一面和坏的一面。

But the 20th-century Communism was ultimately a failure, an absolute failure.

但20世纪的共产主义最终是失败的，绝对的失败。

Given Brexit’s recent example, there’s very little genuine debate over all the complicated topics around leaving the EU — or not leaving, as the case may be.

鉴于英国脱欧最近的例子，围绕脱欧或不脱欧（视情况而定）的所有复杂话题几乎没有真正的争论。

And there’s a level of conformity and groupthink that reminds me of the movie Stepford Wives, if that rings a bell with you.

这里有一定程度的从众和群体思维，这让我想起了电影《继福妻子》（Stepford Wives），如果这让你想起的话。

So my question to you is, you’ve experienced Yugoslav Communist system, and you’ve experienced something of the UK academic system.

所以我问你的问题是，你经历过南斯拉夫的共产主义制度，也经历过英国的学术体系。

Which of those environments do you think is most conducive to genuine critical, engaged intellectuals?

您认为哪种环境最有利于培养真正具有批判性、积极参与的知识分子？

Thanks.

谢谢。

ŽIŽEK: It’s a very nice question, and again, you will accuse me of nostalgia, but I will say in the last decade, 1980s, Yugoslavia was better.

齐泽克：这是一个非常好的问题，你会再次指责我怀旧，但我会说在过去十年，即 20 世纪 80 年代，南斯拉夫更好。

You know why?

你知道为什么吗？

There was not yet a total economic fiasco, and that was the beauty.

经济还没有彻底崩溃，这就是美妙之处。

From 1980 at least, maybe ’82, the ruling nomenklatura were already preparing for the fiasco, so actually, I think that some of the governments in different republics were pretty good.

至少从1980年，也许是82年开始，执政的权贵阶层就已经在为惨败做好准备了，所以实际上，我认为不同共和国的一些政府都相当不错。

You know why?

你知道为什么吗？

Because they knew they don’t have democratic legitimacy.

因为他们知道他们没有民主合法性。

So they tried to do, to learn some legitimacy.

所以他们试图这样做，以了解一些合法性。

For example, a very sad story in mid-’80s — ’86, ’87 — a gay organization formed itself in Slovenia.

例如，80年代中期的一个非常悲伤的故事——86年、87年——一个同性恋组织在斯洛文尼亚成立。

Immediately, a delegate from central committee came there.

随即，中央的代表也赶到了。

“Yes, you are progressive.

“是的，你很进步。

We are for them.

我们是为了他们。

Do you want financial support?” And so on, and so on.

你需要经济支持吗？”等等，等等。

Then we got democracy in 1990.

然后我们在 1990 年实现了民主。

The first thing that the city, town council, whatever, dominated by conservatives, is abolish all help to this gay organization.

由保守派主导的市、镇议会，无论什么，首先要做的就是取消对这个同性恋组织的所有帮助。

So in some paradoxical sense, it was a golden era.

因此，从某种矛盾的意义上来说，这是一个黄金时代。

I would say the second half, but I don’t have any illusions.

我想说的是后半段，但我不抱任何幻想。

It’s not that Communists were good, but Communists in power knew they were fighting for survival.

并不是共产党人好，而是当权的共产党人知道他们正在为生存而战。

This is, incidentally, also how I read the explosion of nationalism.

顺便说一句，这也是我对民族主义爆发的解读。

Milošević got this.

米洛舍维奇明白了。

Communist nomenklatura had a problem.

共产党权贵阶层有一个问题。

Democracy is coming — how to regain some type of democratic legitimacy without canceling themselves as nomenklatura.

民主即将到来——如何在不取消自己作为权贵阶层的情况下重新获得某种形式的民主合法性。

The answer, obviously, was paint yourself as defender of national interest and so on, nationalism and so on.

显然，答案是将自己描绘成国家利益等、民族主义等的捍卫者。

On the other hand, I must say, what makes me so depressed — United States are big enough, are not the worst, but especially UK — I don’t know how it is here — this pragmatic turn of philosophy has to serve concrete social needs.

另一方面，我必须说，是什么让我如此沮丧——美国足够大，还不是最糟糕的，但尤其是英国——我不知道这里是怎么回事——这种务实的哲学转向必须服务于具体的社会需求。

Labour Party, more than Thatcher, began this in England.

工党比撒切尔夫人更早在英国开始了这一进程。

My friend philosophers are telling me, “You got Labour representatives coming to university philosophy department and say, ‘We will give you more money, but we will just make it if you get some money from private companies.’”

我的哲学家朋友告诉我，“工党代表来到大学哲学系并说，‘我们会给你更多的钱，但如果你从私营公司得到一些钱，我们就会成功。’”

But what I like about today’s academia — I think this is certainly not a traditional leftist idea — that what’s good about academia is precisely that it’s a space with no concrete attachment to any needs of society.

但我喜欢今天的学术界——我认为这当然不是传统的左翼思想——学术界的好处恰恰在于它是一个与社会需求没有具体联系的空间。

You can go crazy, you can freely debate, and so on, and so on.

你可以疯狂，你可以自由辩论，等等。

And this is more and more difficult today, even in Germany, they are telling me.

他们告诉我，今天这变得越来越困难，即使在德国也是如此。

My good friend, conservative but bright, Peter Sloterdijk — he told me to get more money — you know what he likes to do?

我的好朋友彼得·斯洛特戴克（Peter Sloterdijk），保守但聪明，他告诉我要赚更多的钱，你知道他喜欢做什么吗？

Business weekends.

周末商务。

Years ago, he went for a weekend to Volkswagen top managers and explained to them this bullshit.

几年前，他周末去大众汽车公司的高层管理人员那里，向他们解释了这些废话。

“What’s going on today?

“今天是怎么回事？

Postmodernity, the situation,” and so on, and got — I didn’t ask.

后现代性、情境”等等，然后得到——我没有问。

So, what I’m saying is that this reminds me in an uncanny way to the worst years in ex-Yugoslavia, ’70s, of the Communist oppression.

所以，我想说的是，这以一种不可思议的方式让我想起了前南斯拉夫70年代最糟糕的岁月，共产党的压迫。

This focus on also human sciences has to work for society.

这种对人文科学的关注也必须为社会服务。

Experts solve problems.

专家解决问题。

No!

不！

We don’t need that today.

今天我们不需要那个。

We need precisely academia, humanities in their useless character.

我们恰恰需要学术界、人文学科的无用特性。

Also, in sciences — if you look closely, isn’t it that practically all big inventions, as far as I can judge, emerged either in a totally contingent, external way, usually some military contract, or as a private hobby, and so on?

另外，在科学领域——如果你仔细观察，据我判断，几乎所有的重大发明难道不是以完全偶然的、外部的方式出现的，通常是一些军事合同，或者作为私人爱好等等？

So, what I advise you if you are here at the university is, don’t believe in this mantra of “You are here, bourgeois, spending money, hard-earned workers’ money.

所以，如果你在大学，我建议你，不要相信“你在这里，资产阶级，花钱，工人的血汗钱”这样的口头禅。

Be more useful.”

变得更有用。”

No!

不！

What’s great about university is they are not useful in the immediate sense.

大学的伟大之处在于它们并没有直接意义上的用处。

That’s what we should expect from you, academics.

这就是我们对学者们的期望。

All great things, again, to use the guy whom you mentioned this morning, Jon Elster —

所有伟大的事情，再次使用你今天早上提到的那个人，乔恩·埃尔斯特——

ŽIŽEK: — He had a wonderful term years ago of states which are a necessary byproduct.

齐伊泽克：多年前，他有过一个美妙的国家任期，这是一个必要的副产品。

It just comes.

它就来了。

You cannot plan it.

你无法计划它。

Academia should be a place for this.

学术界应该是一个这样的地方。

It’s a model of historical catastrophe or crisis that’s often associated with the kind of dialectical salvage along pseudo-Hegelian lines, I’m saying pseudo-Hegelian because you’ve done so much to argue that Hegel himself resists this kind of negative eschatology.

这是一种历史灾难或危机的模型，通常与伪黑格尔主义路线上的辩证抢救联系在一起，我说伪黑格尔主义是因为你做了很多事情来论证黑格尔本人抵制这种消极的末世论。

But you’ve often suggested that Marx falls prey to this way of thinking.

但你经常指出马克思陷入了这种思维方式。

One of your criticisms of his paradigm is that it exaggerates or misconstrues the exceptionality of the present, and misunderstands the nature of the crisis.

您对他的范式的批评之一是，它夸大或误解了当前的特殊性，并误解了危机的本质。

And of crisis, specifically, it underestimates the capacity of capitalism to absorb and feed on its own crises.

特别是在危机方面，它低估了资本主义吸收和利用自身危机的能力。

Can we still hold to the idea of capitalism as being its own grave digger?

我们还能坚持认为资本主义是它自己的掘墓人吗？

Can you elaborate your critique of the Hölderlin paradigm in light of the present, when we can see the danger, the ravaging effects of global capitalism all around us, to the extent that maybe danger itself is not the word we can use any longer, and where previous models of crises seem not to hold, specifically?

当我们看到危险，全球资本主义对我们周围的破坏性影响，甚至危险本身不再是我们可以再使用的词，而且以前的危机模型似乎不再适用时，您能否根据目前的情况详细阐述您对荷尔德林范式的批判？

And here’s my question: is there a concept of revolution in the present context that does not fall prey to this paradigm?

我的问题是：在当前背景下，是否有一个革命概念不属于这种范式？

ŽIŽEK: Again, it’s a mega difficult question.

齐伊泽克：这又是一个非常困难的问题。

Just to explain to you what she, Rebecca Comay .

只是向你解释一下她，Rebecca Comay。

.

。

.

。

incidentally, here I’m a sincere, not politically correct feminist.

顺便说一句，我是一个真诚的、政治不正确的女权主义者。

I’m organizing next October in New York a big Hegel conference.

我将于明年十月在纽约组织一次大型黑格尔会议。

The majority will be women, and I already brutally apologize to people.

大多数是女性，我已经向人们粗暴地道歉了。

“No, no, I’m not politically correct feminist.

“不，不，我不是政治正确的女权主义者。

It’s simply that the best Hegelian stuff is come from women today.”

简单地说，最好的黑格尔思想来自于今天的女性。”

So okay, Hölderlin paradigm — you know this passage from Hölderlin, Patmos, all the time quoted by Heidegger: “Wo aber Gefahr ist, wächst / Das Rettende auch.

好吧，荷尔德林范式——你知道海德格尔一直引用的《拔摩岛荷尔德林》中的这段话：“Wo aber Gefahr ist，wächst / Das Rettende auch。

Where the danger is the greatest, the point of salvation is also near,” and so on.

危险最大的地方，拯救的时刻也近了”，等等。

And this is a model for the usual revolutionary thinking, even in Marx — proletariat, zero-level exploitation, poverty.

这是通常的革命思想的模型，即使是马克思的思想——无产阶级、零水平剥削、贫困。

But there is a chance that you turn around into salvation.

但你有机会回转并获得救赎。

I’m here Hegelian, if you ask me.

如果你问我的话，我是黑格尔主义者。

I much more believe — and I will not go into it now; it’s another half an hour — how do I apply this to what I was telling about catastrophes, apocalypses, and so on.

我更加相信——现在我不会深究；又是半个小时——我该如何将其应用到我所讲述的灾难、世界末日等内容中。

The post-apocalyptic vision — Hegel’s problem is exactly the opposite one.

后世界末日的愿景——黑格尔的问题恰恰相反。

The big attempt at liberation happened — French Revolution, and for Hegel — I don’t totally agree with him, but nonetheless — it turned wrong, Jacobin terror, and so on.

伟大的解放尝试发生了——法国大革命，对于黑格尔来说——我不完全同意他的观点，但尽管如此——它变成了错误，雅各宾恐怖，等等。

So what went wrong?

那么到底出了什么问题呢？

Hegel is not a crazy optimist: “As bad as things are, you should see a chance for the better.”

黑格尔并不是一个疯狂的乐观主义者：“尽管事情很糟糕，但你应该看到变得更好的机会。”

No!

不！

Hegel’s basic insight is exactly the opposite one.

黑格尔的基本见解恰恰相反。

No matter how good an idea or a project is, we can be sure that it will turn wrong somehow.

无论一个想法或一个项目有多好，我们都可以肯定它会以某种方式出错。

And I think what Hegel did to French Revolution, we should do to 20th-century Communism.

我认为黑格尔对法国大革命所做的事情，我们也应该对 20 世纪的共产主义做。

First, we have to still — we disagree here maybe — I still see some tremendous utopian emancipatory potential, but it went terribly wrong with Stalinism and so on.

首先，我们必须仍然——我们在这里可能不同意——我仍然看到一些巨大的乌托邦解放潜力，但斯大林主义等却犯了严重的错误。

And we shouldn’t play these cheap games — just corrupted Stalin or even .

我们不应该玩这些廉价的游戏——只是腐败的斯大林，甚至……。

.

。

.

。

Did you notice how Marxists are often even racist here?

您是否注意到这里的马克思主义者甚至常常是种族主义者？

They put the blame on Russia is too close to Asia, so it’s Asiatic barbarism which is responsible for it.

他们把责任归咎于俄罗斯离亚洲太近，所以这是亚洲的野蛮行为造成的。

No!

不！

If things went wrong, and we have to begin thinking from this, what’s then the solution?

如果出了问题，我们就得从这里开始思考，那解决办法是什么呢？

Simply return to more modest previous model of society — this is my vision today.

简单地回到以前更温和的社会模式——这就是我今天的愿景。

Yes, we are approaching a crisis, but we cannot simply revitalize the 20th-century Communism.

是的，我们正在接近一场危机，但我们不能简单地重振20世纪的共产主义。

We should rethink it radically.

我们应该从根本上重新思考它。

I’m again a Hegelian pessimist here.

我又是一个黑格尔式的悲观主义者了。

Hegel is, for me, a thinker of deep distrust.

对我来说，黑格尔是一位极度不信任的思想家。

Hegelian dogma is everything turns wrong.

黑格尔的教条是凡事都会出错。

This whole delicate Hegelian theory of repetition — only the second time to do it again.

这整个黑格尔重复理论的精妙之处在于——只有第二次才重复一遍。

You have to do it again.

你必须再做一次。

Maybe you have a chance the second time if you learn the lessons of the first time.

如果你吸取了第一次的教训，也许你还有第二次机会。

And, I think that’s what we need today — this much more modest spirit.

而且，我认为这就是我们今天所需要的——这种更加谦虚的精神。

Don’t wait for a big revolution.

不要等待一场大革命。

It already happened, and it got screwed up.

事情已经发生了，而且已经搞砸了。

ŽIŽEK: I love you.

齐伊泽克：我爱你。

You are deeply a good Stalinist.

您是一位优秀的斯大林主义者。

ŽIŽEK: Yeah, yeah, fuck democracy.

齐伊泽克：是的，是的，去他妈的民主。

You want order here.

你想在这里订购。

So my questions are two I’ve got.

所以我的问题有两个。

The first is, what has prompted this reaffirmation of your commitment to Communism?

首先，是什么促使您重申对共产主义的承诺？

And the second question is, has your commitment to Communism evolved over the years, and if so, how?

第二个问题是，这些年来你对共产主义的承诺是否有所改变？如果有，是如何改变的？

ŽIŽEK: I think I implicitly — maybe I failed — answered this in my whatever you call it, bombastic word, speech, talk, or whatever.

齐伊泽克：我想我含蓄地——也许我失败了——以我的任何你所说的方式回答了这个问题，夸夸其谈的词、演讲、演讲或其他什么。

The big dilemma for me is this one.

对我来说最大的困境就是这个。

It’s still, again, as I said, the Fukuyama dilemma.

正如我所说，这仍然是福山困境。

We are confronting a series of problems today, among them not only global migrations, the new forms of dominations based on digital universe, ecology, and so on, and so on.

今天我们面临着一系列问题，其中不仅有全球移民，还有基于数字宇宙、生态等的新形式的统治。

Is the existing liberal democratic capitalist system strong enough to cope with these problems or not?

现有的自由民主资本主义制度是否足以应对这些问题？

And my answer is, unfortunately, no. I’m not saying now that this means anything.

不幸的是，我的答案是否定的。我现在并不是说这意味着什么。

“Go, let’s reinvent.

“走吧，我们重新发明吧。

Let’s return to 20th-century Communism.”

让我们回到20世纪的共产主义吧。”

I totally agree with you that all these problems reappear, only now we are discovering all the ecological catastrophes.

我完全同意你的观点，所有这些问题都会再次出现，只是现在我们才发现所有的生态灾难。

Go to East Germany.

去东德吧

Whole areas are there totally contaminated.

整个地区都被完全污染了。

Go to parts of the Soviet Union, which are even now prohibited, and so on, and so on.

去苏联的部分地区，这些地区现在仍然被禁止，等等。

But, to put it very simply, I was never naively pro-Communist.

但是，简单地说，我从来都不是天真的亲共分子。

My diploma work — this was early ’70s, late ’60s — was rejected by university — these were still Communist times — as not Marxist.

我的文凭作品——当时是 70 年代初，60 年代末——被大学拒绝了——当时还是共产主义时代——因为不是马克思主义的。

This may surprise many of you, but you know that I began as a Heideggerian.

这可能会让你们很多人感到惊讶，但你们知道我一开始是海德格尔主义者。

My first book was on Heidegger and language in Slovene.

我的第一本书是关于海德格尔和斯洛文尼亚语言的。

Today, I would settle accounts with the book in Nazi style — burn it, you know.

今天，我会用纳粹风格的书来算账——烧掉它，你知道的。

But what I’m saying is that this is, to put it in very simplistic commonsense terms, this is my .

但我想说的是，用非常简单的常识术语来说，这是我的。

.

。

.

。

That’s why I’m so distrustful about this usual liberal optimism.

这就是为什么我对这种通常的自由主义乐观主义如此不信任。

Of course, all my sympathy goes with, for example, refugees, but don’t turn it into a humanitarian problem.

当然，我对难民等问题表示同情，但不要将其变成人道主义问题。

But not in this politically correct way.

但不是以这种政治正确的方式。

Western people from developed countries like to blame themselves.

来自发达国家的西方人喜欢责备自己。

“Yeah, yeah, whatever happens in third world, it’s colonialism.

“是啊，是啊，无论第三世界发生什么，这都是殖民主义。

We are guilty.” And so on.

我们有罪。”等等。

No, we are not responsible because what one should never forget .

不，我们不负责，因为人们永远不应该忘记。

.

。

.

。

Here, I’m still — I’m sorry to disappoint you — staunchly pro-European Enlightenment tradition.

在这里，我仍然——很抱歉让你们失望了——坚定地支持欧洲启蒙运动传统。

Even political correctness itself is, I think, a misdirected application of something that is part of European tradition of Enlightenment.

我认为，甚至政治正确性本身也是对欧洲启蒙传统一部分的错误应用。

You cannot even, I think, imagine something like political correctness outside the Western tradition.

我认为，你甚至无法想象西方传统之外的政治正确性。

Here, I’m still — I’m sorry to disappoint you — staunchly pro-European Enlightenment tradition.

在这里，我仍然——很抱歉让你们失望了——坚定地支持欧洲启蒙运动传统。

Even political correctness itself is, I think, a misdirected application of something that is part of European tradition of Enlightenment.

我认为，甚至政治正确性本身也是对欧洲启蒙传统一部分的错误应用。

You cannot even, I think, imagine something like political correctness outside the Western tradition.

我认为，你甚至无法想象西方传统之外的政治正确性。

It’s not that once I was a traditional, authentic Communist, but I was very lucky in Yugoslavia.

并不是说我曾经是一个传统的、真正的共产主义者，而是我在南斯拉夫非常幸运。

You know why?

你知道为什么吗？

Because I don’t have any illusions about ex-Yugoslavia.

因为我对前南斯拉夫不抱任何幻想。

I’m not nostalgic, but you know what was our luck?

我并不怀旧，但你知道我们的运气是什么吗？

From early ’60s, borders were maybe for literally 20 dissidents, but other side were completely open.

从 60 年代初开始，边境可能只允许 20 名持不同政见者进入，但另一边则完全开放。

As a student, late ’60s, I was going once at least every two months, if not more often, by plane or by train to London, Paris, or Munich to buy books, and so on.

作为一名 60 年代末的学生，我至少每两个月（如果不是更频繁的话）坐飞机或火车去伦敦、巴黎或慕尼黑买书等等。

So for us, in ex-Yugoslavia, the end of Communism was not this traumatic experience — “Oh, my God, now we know what it is.”

因此，对于我们这些前南斯拉夫来说，共产主义的终结并不是这种痛苦的经历——“哦，天哪，现在我们知道它是什么了。”

No!

不！

We were there all the time, going to the West.

我们一直在那里，前往西方。

No illusions, and maybe this was my luck, that I had no illusions about Yugoslav Communism.

不抱任何幻想，也许这就是我的运气，我对南斯拉夫共产主义不抱任何幻想。

I didn’t buy the stupidity of some Western Communists: “Yugoslavia is different; it was an authentic democratic Communism.”

我不相信一些西方共产党人的愚蠢：“南斯拉夫不同；它是真正的民主共产主义。”

But borders were open, so I also didn’t have great illusions about the West.

但边界是开放的，所以我对西方也没有抱太大幻想。

And it goes to my honor — check it up.

这是我的荣幸——检查一下。

It appeared in ’88, ’89 in New Left Review — a short text of mine, “Eastern Europe’s Republics of Gilead,” a reference to Margaret Atwood’s Handmaid’s Tale, where it was clear to me that I predicted there, explicitly, that East European post-Communism will take this nationalist, fundamentalist turn, and so on, and so on.

它出现在88年、89年的《新左派评论》上——我的一篇短文，“东欧的基列共和国”，参考了玛格丽特·阿特伍德的《使女的故事》，我很清楚，我在那里明确地预测，东欧后共产主义将采取这种民族主义、原教旨主义转向，等等。

So, again, it’s not that I ever was a traditional Marxist because you know what was my formative experience?

所以，再说一遍，我并不是一个传统的马克思主义者，因为你知道我的成长经历是什么吗？

I remember, when I was young student, the big conflict in Slovenia was between Marxist Frankfurt School and Heideggerians.

我记得，当我还是个年轻的学生时，斯洛文尼亚最大的冲突是马克思主义法兰克福学派和海德格尔派之间的冲突。

Heideggerians, more dissidents; Frankfurt School, official Marxist.

海德格尔主义者，更多持不同政见者；法兰克福学派，官方马克思主义者。

Then, the big French wave exploded, so-called structuralism, poststructuralism.

然后，法国大浪潮爆发了，所谓结构主义、后结构主义。

And both sides — dissidents and the party officials — used the same language attacking it.

双方——持不同政见者和党的官员——都使用相同的语言来攻击它。

That’s what made my identity.

这就是我的身份的原因。

The French experience — I’m sorry if I disappointed you — but again, my point is this one: simply that we are approaching problems, catastrophic potentials, and it will not be able to deal with it within the liberal democratic capitalist system.

法国的经验——如果我让你失望了，我很抱歉——但我的观点是这样的：我们正在解决问题和潜在的灾难性问题，而在自由民主资本主义体系内将无法解决它。

That’s my foundation, very simple one.

这就是我的基础，非常简单。

Yes.

是的。

ŽIŽEK: I’m sorry, I’m very sorry, yes.

齐伊泽克：对不起，非常抱歉，是的。

I will go into my Buddhist mode, this bullshit, like “clap with one hand, listen to my silence,” or whatever.

我会进入我的佛教模式，这种废话，比如“用一只手拍手，听我的沉默”，或者其他什么。

Please, sorry.

拜托，对不起。

ŽIŽEK: That’s the worst, yes.

齐伊泽克：是的，这是最糟糕的。

ŽIŽEK: Up to a point, yes.

齐伊泽克：在某种程度上，是的。

Very good question.

非常好的问题。

I would refer here to my Japanese friend — very intelligent.

我在这里要提到我的日本朋友——非常聪明。

Read him.

读他。

His books are translated — most of them — into English.

他的书大部分都被翻译成英文。

Kojin Karatani.

柄谷浩仁.

Okay, it’s provocative what he .

好吧，他这真是挑衅啊。

.

。

.

。

But he said somewhere, “The passage from bourgeois to proletarian democracy,” I quote him, “is the passage from voting to lottery.” You know, that there must be a dimension of lottery, chance, and so on to prevent expert rule.

但他在某个地方说过，“从资产阶级民主到无产阶级民主的过渡，”我引用他的话，“就是从投票到彩票的过渡。”要知道，必须有抽奖、机会等等维度来防止专家统治。

I believe that in every — whatever we call it — more authentic democracy and so on, an element of chance is needed.

我相信，无论我们如何称呼它，每一个更真实的民主等等都需要机会的因素。

And that’s why, from Ancient Greece to Venice, which was not exactly democratic, but nonetheless, they were also obsessed with lottery.

这就是为什么，从古希腊到不完全民主的威尼斯，他们也沉迷于彩票。

How do you call the boss?

怎么称呼老板呢？

Doge.

总督。

ŽIŽEK: Yes.

齐伊泽克：是的。

How was he selected?

他是如何被选中的？

An incredibly —

一个令人难以置信的——

ŽIŽEK: Incredibly complex, but it was a mixture of checking the person — that he’s not corrupted — with lottery, with luck.

齐泽克：非常复杂，但它是通过抽签和运气来检查这个人（他没有腐败）的混合体。

No?

不？

On the other hand, he’s not yours, but you were once their colony — I mean Denmark.

另一方面，他不是你的，但你曾经是他们的殖民地——我指的是丹麦。

No?

不？

Kierkegaard also was well aware of this, you know.

你知道，克尔凯郭尔也很清楚这一点。

I read in a biography of — how to pronounce it correctly?

我在一本传记中读到 — 如何正确发音？

Kierkegaard, okay.

克尔凯郭尔，好吧。

We in the corrupted West say Kierkegaard.

我们在腐败的西方说克尔凯郭尔。

I read in a biography he once was called by the king and like, “What lessons should I learn?” He expected some deep theological, philosophical wisdom.

我在一本传记中读到，他曾经被国王召唤，“我应该吸取什么教训？”他期待一些深刻的神学、哲学智慧。

No, you must learn how to be polite, how to say polite platitudes, and so on, and so on.

不，你必须学会​​如何礼貌，如何说礼貌的陈词滥调等等，等等。

I believe in empty manners.

我相信空虚的礼仪。

All our humanity is based on empty manners, and this is what absolutely fascinates me.

我们所有的人性都建立在空洞的礼仪之上，而这正是让我着迷的地方。

I’ve written a lot about it.

我已经写了很多关于它的文章。

I call them sincere hypocrisies.

我称它们为真诚的虚伪。

For example, I don’t know how you do this here, but in my country, let’s say — I’m sorry, it’s my old story, some of you may know it — let’s say you are a millionaire, I’m a poor guy.

例如，我不知道你在这里是如何做到这一点的，但在我的国家，假设——对不起，这是我的老故事，你们中的一些人可能知道——假设你是一个百万富翁，我是一个穷人。

You invite me to dinner, to a restaurant.

你邀请我去餐厅吃饭。

The bill arrives.

账单到了。

In my country, it’s absolutely crucial to go through this empty ritual.

在我的国家，经历这种空洞的仪式绝对是至关重要的。

At the end, the bill arrives.

最后，账单到了。

We both know that you will pay, but I have to insist a little bit, “No, let’s at least share it.”

我们都知道你会付钱，但我必须坚持一点，“不，至少让我们分享一下。”

ŽIŽEK: Not too much, yes, because in my ultimate evil, once I did this to a friend of mine.

齐伊泽克：不是太多，是的，因为在我的终极邪恶中，有一次我对我的一个朋友这样做了。

It was very evil.

这是非常邪恶的。

He insisted, “Let me pay.” And I said, “Okay, pay.”

他坚持说：“让我付钱。”我说：“好吧，付钱吧。”

ŽIŽEK: And he was totally desperate.

齐伊泽克：他完全绝望了。

He had to claim, “Oh, I forgot my credit card.” But what I’m saying, isn’t this something wonderful?

他不得不声称：“哦，我忘记带信用卡了。”但我想说的是，这不是一件很美妙的事情吗？

This specific human communication.

这种特定的人类交流。

You make an offer, a gesture, which is expected to be rejected, but nonetheless, it has to be made.

你提出一个提议，一个姿态，预计会被拒绝，但尽管如此，它还是必须做出。

All our communication is like this.

我们所有的沟通都是这样的。

Like you walk on the street, you stumble upon a friend, and you tell him, “Oh, uh, nice to see you.

就像你走在街上，你偶然发现一个朋友，你告诉他，“哦，呃，很高兴见到你。

How are you doing?”

你怎么样？

Usually, this is a total lie.

通常，这完全是谎言。

You are thinking, “Why didn’t I see him five minutes, five seconds before to cross .

你在想，“为什么我在穿越之前五分五秒没有看到他……”

.

。

.

。

?” And for this we need — I’m answering your question, I’m not lost — for this we need idiots.

？”为此我们需要——我正在回答你的问题，我没有迷路——为此我们需要白痴。

There is no civilization without this idiocy.

没有这种白痴就没有文明。

ŽIŽEK: Middle-class opportunist.

齐伊泽克：中产阶级机会主义者。

You want to combine Left and Right, you know.

你想把左和右结合起来，你知道。

ŽIŽEK: Oh, my God, I like this, yeah.

齐伊泽克：哦，天哪，我喜欢这个，是的。

So I would like to ask you very specifically, how do you believe that the hearing about the extradition of Assange will turn out at the end of February?

所以我想很具体地问你，你认为二月底的阿桑奇引渡听证会结果如何？

And how do you think the outcome would affect that sign of a possible Communist future?

您认为这一结果将如何影响共产主义未来可能出现的迹象？

ŽIŽEK: A very difficult question because — I hope Julian doesn’t have a TV, cannot watch it, no — because I’m more of a pessimist.

齐泽克：这是一个非常困难的问题，因为——我希望朱利安没有电视，不能看电视，不——因为我更像是一个悲观主义者。

We are trying to do what can be done, organize things here and there, but the entire establishment is against him, and so on, and so on.

我们正在努力做能做的事情，到处组织一些事情，但整个机构都反对他，等等。

But nonetheless, there are good signs here and there.

但尽管如此，到处都有好的迹象。

Even Kevin Rudd, the previous Australian prime minister, turned against extradition.

就连澳大利亚前总理陆克文也反对引渡。

So, if you ask me about his concrete fate, I will do .

所以，如果你问我他的具体命运，我会的。

.

。

.

。

But what can I do?

但我能做什么呢？

All possible.

一切皆有可能。

I’m a pessimist.

我是一个悲观主义者。

I think we should just hope that at least the aftereffect will be.

我认为我们应该希望至少有后遗症。

Norway too suffers from the stigmatization of Communists.

挪威也遭受共产党人的污名化。

And even though the poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer, with far-right parties in parliament, workers are reluctant to turn to the left.

尽管穷人越来越穷，富人越来越富，但议会中存在极右翼政党，工人们却不愿意转向左翼。

How can we best turn the proletariat towards our cause?

我们怎样才能最好地让无产阶级转向我们的事业？

Thirty seconds, please.

请三十秒。

ŽIŽEK: First, you say poor are getting poorer, rich are getting richer, but you know, Norway is still an ideal for many of us, if I may say this.

齐泽克：首先，你说穷人越来越穷，富人越来越富，但你知道，挪威仍然是我们许多人的理想之地，如果我可以这样说的话。

This I got from my good friend, Varoufakis, who said, “Everybody protests austerity, but for us, or you in the developed West, austerity means, ‘Oh, my God, purchasing power fell half a percent.’ Austerity is what happens in Greece, where it fell 30 percent.”

这是我从我的好朋友瓦鲁法基斯那里得到的，他说：“每个人都抗议紧缩政策，但对于我们，或者你们这些发达的西方国家来说，紧缩政策意味着，‘天啊，购买力下降了半个百分点。’紧缩政策发生在希腊，那里的购买力下降了 30%。”

What I would say is, again, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez formula .

我想说的是，亚历山大·奥卡西奥-科尔特斯公式。

.

。

.

。

I’m totally, again, for all this new identity movement — not identity, but feminism and so on, gay rights and so on.

我再次完全支持所有这些新的身份运动——不是身份，而是女权主义等等，同性恋权利等等。

But don’t fall into this gap of cultural politics.

但不要陷入文化政治的鸿沟。

Find a link with the majority because poor are getting poorer, and so on, and so on.

找到与大多数人的联系，因为穷人越来越穷，等等。

Is there a political party talking for them?

有政党为他们说话吗？

But not in this traditional Marxist way.

但不是以这种传统的马克思主义方式。

It doesn’t work.

这不起作用。

But because so many in United States, politically correct people — you can see that their political correctness quite often has a secret class bias.

但因为在美国有很多政治正确的人——你可以看到他们的政治正确常常带有秘密的阶级偏见。

They don’t say it, but the politically incorrect are the poor, primitive people, working class, and so on, and so on.

他们不说，但政治不正确的人是穷人、原始人、工人阶级等等。

It’s a much more complex situation, and I will say now something that you will like, but for this you will get to Gulag for that.

这是一个更加复杂的情况，我现在会说一些你会喜欢的话，但为此你将去古拉格。

The problem is much bigger one.

问题要大得多。

Does the Left .

左派吗？

.

。

.

。

I was there in Occupied Wall Street, and I was asking them, “What do you want?

我在被占领的华尔街，我问他们，“你们想要什么？

Do you have a project?”

你有项目吗？”

Many of them just have a vague idea of less corruption; big banks are corrupted.

他们中的许多人只是对减少腐败有一个模糊的想法；大银行都腐败了。

What do you want?

你想要什么？

Are you a Fukuyamaist?

你是福山主义者吗？

A little bit more efficient system.

系统效率更高一点。

Do you want all social democratic welfare?

你想要所有社会民主福利吗？

Do you want old-style Communism?

你想要老式的共产主义吗？

And I will be very critical, leftists.

我会非常批评左派。

I’m the first one to admit that the Left doesn’t have — I’m not talking about legalistic details, but a general vision of a future society.

我是第一个承认左派没有的人——我不是在谈论法律细节，而是对未来社会的总体愿景。

ŽIŽEK: I don’t see.

齐伊泽克：我不明白。

Do you see —

你看到了吗——

ŽIŽEK: Okay.

齐伊泽克：好的。

ŽIŽEK: You see him, how evil he is.

齐伊泽克：你看他，他是多么邪恶。

He interrupted me exactly at this pessimist point.

他就在我这个悲观的时刻打断了我。