Seth Godin on Marketing, Meaning, and the Bibs We Wear (Ep. 180)
Hello, everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today, I am chatting with Seth Godin, who has a new book out, The Song of Significance.
今天，我正在与塞斯·戈丁聊天，他出版了一本新书《意义之歌》。
Usually, I make up introductions for the guests, but the one for Seth on his book is so good already, and I quote:
通常，我会为客人做介绍，但赛斯在他的书中的介绍已经很好了，我引用：
“Seth Godin is the author of 21 international bestsellers that have changed the way people think about work.
“赛斯·戈丁 (Seth Godin) 是 21 本国际畅销书的作者，这些书改变了人们对工作的看法。
His books have been translated into 38 languages.
他的书已被翻译成 38 种语言。
Godin writes one of the most popular marketing blogs in the world, and two of his TED Talks are among the most popular of all time.
Godin 撰写的营销博客是世界上最受欢迎的博客之一，他的两场 TED 演讲也是有史以来最受欢迎的演讲之一。
He is the founder of the altMBA, the social media pioneer Squidoo, and Yoyodyne, one of the first internet companies.
他是 altMBA、社交媒体先驱 Squidoo 和最早的互联网公司之一 Yoyodyne 的创始人。
Find out more at seths.blog.”
如需了解更多信息，请访问 seths.blog。”
Seth, welcome.
赛斯，欢迎。
What a treat.
真是一种享受。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
I have so many questions about marketing.
我有很多关于营销的问题。
Let me start with one.
让我从一个开始。
Why is it that direct mail works at all?
为什么直邮能够发挥作用？
Why do people want things?
人们为什么想要东西？
They want things, first, because they need them, but then we have trained them to want them.
他们想要东西，首先是因为他们需要它们，然后我们训练他们想要它们。
That feeling of “I don’t have something, but I want it, and wanting it will make me happier” has been indoctrinated into us for a long time.
那种“我没有什么，但我想要它，想要它会让我更快乐”的感觉已经被灌输给我们很长一段时间了。
The magic of direct mail — which is 150 or so years old — is that stamps create scarcity.
直邮的魔力 （已有 150 年左右的历史） 在于邮票可以创造稀缺性。
If somebody sends you a piece of direct mail, it costs them something to do that.
如果有人直接向您发送一封邮件，他们就会付出一些代价。
That’s different than email spam, which costs us under nothing.
这与垃圾邮件不同，垃圾邮件不会让我们付出任何代价。
So, for a long time — all the way back to the beginning of pottery with Wedgewood — we have people sending letters to the right people — because they can’t send it to everyone — interrupting them in a culturally appropriate way to sell them something that will give them satisfaction.
所以，在很长一段时间里——“一直追溯到韦奇伍德陶器的起源”——“我们让人们给合适的人寄信”——“因为他们不能把信寄给所有人”——以一种文化上合适的方式打断他们，向他们推销一些能让他们满意的东西。
Unfortunately, there’s also a race to the bottom, and you get a lot of junk.
不幸的是，也存在逐底竞争，你会得到很多垃圾。
It’s the junk that people don’t like.
这是人们不喜欢的垃圾。
Marketing that they like, people don’t call junk.
他们喜欢的营销，人们不会称之为垃圾。
Most of the direct mail that comes to our house is people wanting money for free.
大多数寄到我们家的直邮都是想要免费钱的人。
Why should I give money to someone I don’t know, rather than money to someone I do know?
为什么我应该把钱给我不认识的人，而不是给我认识的人？
If personal affiliation is a goal and trust matters, why direct mail?
如果个人关系是一个目标并且信任很重要，为什么还要直邮呢？
Well, first, I’m not an expert on direct mail, though I am lucky enough to be in the Direct Marketing Hall of Fame.
好吧，首先，我不是直邮专家，尽管我很幸运能够进入直销名人堂。
They kicked me out of the Direct Marketing Association for my stance against spam a long time ago.
他们很久以前就因为我反对垃圾邮件的立场而将我踢出直复营销协会。
But I guess what I would say is this: we have developed a culture where it is accepted and expected that the recipient will guard their attention and guard their pocketbook.
但我想我想说的是：我们已经形成了一种文化，人们接受并期望接受者会保护他们的注意力并保护他们的钱包。
I don’t think that that’s the only way the world could work, but it is the way our world works.
我不认为这是世界运转的唯一方式，但这是我们的世界运转的方式。
I’m not saying it’s right, but it is the way it is.
我并不是说这是正确的，但事实就是如此。
So, no, don’t send money to someone you don’t know.
所以，不，不要向不认识的人汇款。
To what extent is being good at marketing the same as being good at telling very short stories?
擅长营销与擅长讲短篇故事在多大程度上是一样的？
What’s a story?
什么是故事？
A story isn’t always The Princess Bride.
故事并不总是公主新娘。
A story isn’t always once upon a time.
故事并不总是从前。
A story is the way it smells when you walk into your mother’s house and you smell apple pie, because you have a Proustian connection to how that felt a long time ago.
故事就是当你走进母亲的房子并闻到苹果派的味道时的味道，因为你对很久以前的感觉有一种普鲁斯特式的联系。
A story involves status and affiliation.
故事涉及地位和归属。
It’s very complicated.
这非常复杂。
I’m not ready to say that marketing is a short story.
我还没准备好说营销是一个短篇故事。
I think that marketing is a complicated story.
我认为营销是一个复杂的故事。
We know the difference from a thousand clues between a $500-a-night hotel and a $40-a-night hotel, even though both rooms are dark and quiet in the middle of the night.
我们从一千个线索中就知道了 500 美元一晚的酒店和 40 美元一晚的酒店之间的区别，尽管这两个房间在半夜都是黑暗而安静的。
We want those things.
我们想要那些东西。
Those stories inform our lives.
这些故事影响着我们的生活。
They are why we bought the eyeglasses we bought and why we drive the car we drive.
这就是我们购买眼镜以及驾驶汽车的原因。
There are people who believe that a utilitarian sort of Soviet mindset is better, but even that person is driving their 25-year-old Pontiac because the story they tell themselves about that car makes them feel better.
有些人认为功利主义的苏联心态更好，但即使是这个人也开着他们 25 年的庞蒂亚克，因为他们告诉自己关于那辆车的故事让他们感觉更好。
How do you think about the cross-sectional variation between very short stories — Coke, “the real thing” — and then very long stories?
您如何看待非常短的故事 — 可乐、“真实的东西” — 和非常长的故事之间的横截面差异？
A piece of direct mail might be very long.
一封直邮可能会很长。
The later Harry Potter novels — they’re very long.
后来的《哈利·波特》小说 —— 它们很长。
They’re, in a sense, ads for the sequel in addition to everything else.
从某种意义上说，除了其他内容之外，它们也是续集的广告。
When do you go long and when do you go short?
什么时候做多，什么时候做空？
I think there’s a confusion here between the surface of a jingle or the noise we hear and what marketing actually is.
我认为我们听到的叮当声或噪音的表面与营销的实际含义之间存在着混淆。
Coke’s story is not a jingle.
可口可乐的故事不是顺口溜。
It is not “the real thing.” Coke’s story is so complicated and so expensive that when they changed the formula of Coke, it cost them billions of dollars, even though testing in a blind test showed almost everyone thought it tasted better.
这不是“真实的东西”。可口可乐的故事是如此复杂和昂贵，以至于当他们改变可口可乐的配方时，他们花费了数十亿美元，尽管盲测表明几乎每个人都认为它的味道更好。
The thing is, we don’t live in a double-blind world.
问题是，我们并不生活在一个双盲的世界。
We live with a narrative that informs us.
我们生活在一种告诉我们信息的叙事中。
When someone shows up to tell a story — and it’s not just someone who’s trying to sell you a soft drink; it’s someone who’s trying to run for office or an economist who’s trying to get people to adopt her ideas — they are telling a very complicated story that involves everything from how is the typeface kerned to what institution is this person part of, to what do my friends think of them?
当有人出现并讲述一个故事时，这不仅仅是一个想向你推销软饮料的人；更是一个想向你推销饮料的人。这是一个试图竞选公职的人，或者是一个试图让人们接受她的想法的经济学家 ——他们正在讲述一个非常复杂的故事，其中涉及到一切，从字体的字距如何调整到这个人属于哪个机构，再到我的朋友们如何看待他们？
For me, marketing is humanity.
对我来说，营销就是人性。
They’re right next to each other.
他们就在彼此旁边。
It is the stories we tell each other about who we are and where we belong.
这是我们互相讲述的关于我们是谁和我们属于哪里的故事。
I have some case studies to ask you about.
我有一些案例研究要问你。
Feel free to pass if you don’t know anything about them.
如果您对它们一无所知，请随意通过。
To start, what has Trader Joe’s gotten right?
首先，Trader Joe's 做对了什么？
Trader Joe’s took the rule of the supermarket and found a different fraction, which is instead of being super — meaning, let’s sell everything to everyone, average stuff for average people at the fairest price we can — let’s remove almost all variety and, instead, create a place where the products themselves are unique enough in their stories that people who identify with that relationship with food and shopping will come here, even though they have to drive past five other supermarkets to get here.
Trader Joe’s 采用了超市的规则，发现了一个不同的部分，这不是超级——意思是，让我们把所有东西卖给所有人，以我们能做到的最公平的价格向普通人出售普通的东西——让我们消除几乎所有的品种，相反，创造一个产品本身在他们的故事中足够独特的地方，那些认同与食物和购物关系的人会来到这里，即使他们必须开车经过另外五家超市才能到达这里。
Every other supermarket is interchangeable.
其他所有超市都是可以互换的。
Trader Joe’s is not.
Trader Joe's 则不然。
What has Whole Foods gotten wrong by comparison?
相比之下，全食超市出了什么问题呢？
Well, at the beginning, John and the team did something extraordinary, which is they took the mom-and-pop health food store and multiplied it and added the shiny veneer of luxury goods.
嗯，一开始，约翰和他的团队做了一些非同寻常的事情，他们把夫妻店健康食品店扩大了规模，并加上了奢侈品的闪亮外表。
Since Amazon has taken it over, I think what we’ve seen is, they’re not exactly sure what they are measuring.
自从亚马逊接管以来，我认为我们所看到的是，他们并不确定自己正在测量什么。
Are they measuring convenience?
他们衡量便利性吗？
Which is what Amazon wants to stand for.
这就是亚马逊想要代表的。
Or are they measuring uniqueness?
或者他们正在衡量独特性？
Or are they measuring creating surprise and delight?
或者他们正在衡量创造惊喜和喜悦的程度？
They alternate between all four of those things.
他们在所有这四种事物之间交替。
One of the things that happens when you try to build and grow an institution is, it really helps to understand who’s it for and what’s it for.
当你尝试建立和发展一个机构时，会发生的一件事是，了解它的目的和用途确实很有帮助。
What is the change we are trying to make?
我们正在努力做出什么改变？
I think they’ll muddle their way through, but it’s going to take leadership to figure out, what does Whole Foods do, actually?
我认为他们会蒙混过关，但需要领导层才能弄清楚，全食超市实际上是做什么的？
Taylor Swift is pretty popular.
泰勒·斯威夫特非常受欢迎。
Obviously, people like the music, but what else is she getting right?
显然，人们喜欢这些音乐，但她还有什么做对的呢？
I’m not an expert on pop music, but what I will tell you about pop is, someone needs to be Taylor Swift.
我不是流行音乐专家，但我要告诉你的是，关于流行音乐，需要有人成为泰勒·斯威夫特。
It’s a mistake to reverse engineer whoever is on top of the pop chart and say, “If I was just like that, I would be next.” Because the definition of pop is, we all picked someone, and she has a lot of skill and works really hard.
对流行排行榜上的任何人进行逆向工程并说：“如果我是那样的话，我就是下一个。”这是错误的。因为流行音乐的定义是，我们都选择了一个人，她很有技巧，工作也很努力。
But you can’t reverse engineer it to figure out the next one.
但你无法对其进行逆向工程来找出下一个。
If you were called in as a consultant to professional baseball, what would you tell them to do to keep the game alive?
如果您被邀请担任职业棒球顾问，您会告诉他们如何做才能保持这项运动的活力？
I am so glad I never was a consultant.
我很高兴我从来没有当过顾问。
What is baseball?
什么是棒球？
In most of the world, no one wants to watch one minute of baseball.
在世界上大多数地方，没有人愿意看一分钟的棒球比赛。
Why do we want to watch baseball?
我们为什么想看棒球？
Why do the songs and the Cracker Jack and the sounds matter to some people and not to others?
为什么歌曲、Cracker Jack 和声音对某些人很重要，而对其他人则不然？
The answer is that professional sports in any country that are beloved, are beloved because they remind us of our parents.
答案是，职业运动在任何国家都受到人们的喜爱，因为它们让我们想起我们的父母。
They remind us of a different time in our lives.
它们让我们想起生命中的不同时期。
They are comfortable but also challenging.
它们很舒适，但也充满挑战。
They let us exchange status roles in a safe way without extraordinary division.
它们让我们以安全的方式交换身份角色，而无需进行特别的划分。
Baseball was that for a very long time, but then things changed.
棒球在很长一段时间内都是如此，但后来情况发生了变化。
One of the things that changed is that football was built for television and baseball is not.
改变的事情之一是橄榄球是为电视而生的，而棒球则不是。
By leaning into television, which completely terraformed American society for 40 years, football advanced in a lot of ways.
通过电视的投入，40 年来，电视彻底改变了美国社会，橄榄球运动在很多方面取得了进步。
Baseball is in a jam because, on one hand, like Coke and New Coke, you need to remind people of the old days.
棒球运动陷入困境是因为，一方面，像可口可乐和新可乐一样，你需要提醒人们过去的时光。
On the other hand, people have too many choices now.
另一方面，现在人们有太多的选择。
There’s a baseball team called the Bananas.
有一支棒球队，名叫香蕉队。
It’s like the Harlem Globetrotters for baseball, and they sell out every single game.
这就像棒球界的哈莱姆环球旅行者队一样，他们每场比赛的门票都售罄。
People wait in line to get in, and they create this extraordinary family experience built on top of baseball.
人们排队等候入场，他们创造了这种以棒球为基础的非凡家庭体验。
It reminds us of baseball, but it isn’t baseball.
它让我们想起棒球，但它不是棒球。
I’m not sure all of Major League Baseball can do that, but I think the useful lesson is not how do we fix baseball?
我不确定美国职业棒球大联盟的所有人都能做到这一点，但我认为有用的教训不是我们如何解决棒球问题？
It’s how do we think about which story do we want to tell next?
这是我们如何思考接下来要讲哪个故事？
How do you think about the future of the NBA?
您如何看待NBA的未来？
I grew up in Buffalo, and we had an NBA team there.
我在布法罗长大，那里有一支 NBA 球队。
Bob McAdoo, yes.
鲍勃·麦卡杜，是的。
Yes, but I confess, I was a Buffalo Sabres fan, so I can’t say anything intelligent about basketball.
是的，但我承认，我是布法罗军刀队的球迷，所以我不能说任何关于篮球的聪明话。
You must know why you never found it interesting.
你一定知道为什么你从来不觉得它有趣。
It’s embarrassing to tell you, but it was the sweating.
告诉你很尴尬，但那是出汗。
I love embarrassing.
我就爱尴尬
It’s what?
是什么？
The sweating.
出汗了。
Too much sweating in basketball.
打篮球出汗太多。
Too much sweating.
出汗过多。
It felt icky to watch all these people on the court sweating all the time.
看着球场上这些人一直流汗，感觉很恶心。
Hockey was cold.
曲棍球很冷。
People are wearing long-sleeve shirts.
人们都穿着长袖衬衫。
It made me more comfortable.
这让我更舒服了。
If you think about the problems of Peloton, which did incredibly well during the pandemic but now has had a very steep fall, is that just a product problem?
如果你想想 Peloton 的问题，它在疫情期间表现得非常好，但现在却急剧下滑，这仅仅是产品问题吗？
Or is there something in their marketing that they could be doing better?
或者他们的营销中有哪些可以做得更好的地方？
Peloton had some really significant advantages when they figured out that they could embrace the idea that people want to measure themselves.
当 Peloton 发现他们可以接受人们想要衡量自己的想法时，他们拥有一些非常重要的优势。
They want to compete against people they don’t know, and they want to see their metrics go up.
他们想与不认识的人竞争，并且希望看到自己的指标有所上升。
Then the pandemic gave them a huge boost because you couldn’t go to the gym.
然后，大流行给了他们巨大的推动，因为你不能去健身房。
What many institutions and organizations confuse is the convenience and luck of being in the right place at the right time with building something for the ages.
许多机构和组织混淆了在正确的时间出现在正确的地点所带来的便利和运气与为时代而建造的东西。
Peloton’s challenge cannot be remedied by fixing a device or coming up with a jingle.
Peloton 面临的挑战无法通过修复设备或想出一首歌曲来解决。
What they have to realize is, anything that succeeds and sticks around does so because it answers the question, “What will I tell my friends?” During the pandemic, it was easy to talk to your friends about this thing that they could do to get themselves out of their malaise.
他们必须意识到，任何成功并持续存在的事物之所以如此，是因为它回答了“我要告诉我的朋友什么？”这个问题。在大流行期间，很容易与你的朋友谈论他们可以做的事情来摆脱困境。
But now, Peloton is not giving people a good reason to tell their friends, which means it’s not going to grow, and it’s easier to quit or have it fade away because you don’t feel missed when you’re not there.
但现在，Peloton 并没有给人们一个充分的理由告诉他们的朋友，这意味着它不会增长，而且更容易退出或让它消失，因为当你不在的时候你不会感到想念。
Institutions that last, like Alcoholics Anonymous, stick around for those two reasons: You will be missed if you’re not there, and you know what to tell your friends.
像戒酒互诫协会这样持续存在的机构之所以坚持存在，有两个原因：如果你不在那里，人们会想念你，而且你知道该告诉你的朋友什么。
Which brand is doing a better job marketing, a Prius or a Tesla?
普锐斯和特斯拉哪个品牌的营销做得更好？
Both of them have stories that have problems right now because, as the trends shift, Toyota finds itself behind because they bet on different alternative fuels than electricity, and Tesla because their founder hoards attention.
他们俩的故事现在都存在问题，因为随着趋势的转变，丰田发现自己落后了，因为他们押注于与电力不同的替代燃料，特斯拉则因为他们的创始人囤积注意力。
The challenge when you buy a car is that you know that you’re going to send a message to everybody as you drive around town.
当您购买汽车时面临的挑战是，您知道当您在城里开车时，您将向每个人发送信息。
That is what has driven the car industry since they figured out how to make decent cars 50 years ago.
自从 50 年前发明如何制造出像样的汽车以来，这就是推动汽车行业发展的动力。
If that’s the case, the job of a car company is to live and breathe and model the story that the customers want to tell as they drive around.
如果是这样的话，汽车公司的工作就是生活和呼吸，并为客户在开车时想要讲述的故事建模。
A lot of car heads will say, “No, no, no, I just buy the best car.” And I would say to them, “No, you buy the car that tells your story the best way possible.”
很多车主会说：“不不不，我只是买最好的车。”我会对他们说：“不，你买的车是能以最好的方式讲述你的故事的。”
As you know, ChatGPT is sometimes described as the most rapidly growing or most rapidly adopted consumer product ever.
如您所知，ChatGPT 有时被描述为有史以来增长最快或采用最快的消费产品。
As with Taylor Swift, people must like it, but in terms of marketing, how do you think about what they’ve been doing?
就像泰勒·斯威夫特一样，人们肯定喜欢它，但在营销方面，你如何看待他们一直在做的事情？
They don’t seem like a marketing company, right?
他们看起来不像一家营销公司，对吧？
It’s a bunch of engineers.
这是一群工程师。
There are so many things to talk about with ChatGPT.
使用 ChatGPT 有很多事情可以谈论。
I would first say, I’m not sure people like it.
我首先要说的是，我不确定人们是否喜欢它。
I think people are fascinated by it.
我认为人们对此很着迷。
They are afraid of it.
他们害怕它。
They’re curious about it.
他们对此很好奇。
But there are things people like that deserve that word.
但有些事情值得人们用这个词来形容。
ChatGPT is on the forefront of what many people believe is going to be our future, and so it’s worth touching and playing with.
ChatGPT 处于许多人认为将成为我们未来的最前沿，因此值得接触和使用。
ChatGPT became a marketing problem, not a technology problem, the day they decided to open the beta to more than a few thousand people.
从他们决定向数千人开放测试版的那一天起，ChatGPT 就成为了一个营销问题，而不是一个技术问题。
The same way — and I’m sure you remember this — when Google came along — I was at Yahoo at the time — when Google came along, if you took Google results and results from Bing or Yahoo, and just switched the logos at the top, people would say they prefer the Google results, even when they were looking at the Microsoft results, because Google didn’t have a technology problem.
同样的方式 — 我相信你还记得这一点 — 当谷歌出现时 — 当时我在雅虎 — 当谷歌出现时，如果你把谷歌的结果和来自Bing或雅虎的结果，只是交换顶部的标志，人们会说他们更喜欢谷歌的结果，即使他们在看微软的结果，因为谷歌没有技术问题。
They had solved a marketing problem, which is that Marissa Mayer figured out that by taking off 180 links on the homepage, the way that Yahoo had 183 links, and just taking it down to 2, they sent a message.
他们解决了一个营销问题，玛丽莎·梅耶尔 (Marissa Mayer) 发现，通过删除主页上的 180 个链接（雅虎有 183 个链接），然后将其减少到 2 个，他们就发送了一条消息。
When you think about how people use ChatGPT, one of the brilliant things they did was, when we first started using it, it typed slowly.
当你想到人们如何使用 ChatGPT 时，他们所做的最出色的事情之一就是，当我们第一次开始使用它时，它打字速度很慢。
It didn’t just sit there waiting until it had the whole sentence figured out.
它不会只是坐在那里等待弄清楚整个句子。
It typed a few words, then it typed a few more words, then it typed a few more words.
它打了几个字，然后又打了几个字，然后又打了几个字。
There was no technical reason for that.
这没有技术原因。
That was a marketing decision because it made us imagine that there was a little man or woman inside the thing typing back to us.
这是一个营销决策，因为它让我们想象里面有一个小男人或女人在给我们回信息。
They intentionally created personification.
他们有意创造拟人化。
How happy are you with your own bot of you, the Seth bot?
您对您自己的机器人（Seth 机器人）有多满意？
That’s personification.
这就是拟人化。
You created it.
你创造了它。
Now you’re immortal in a sense.
现在你在某种意义上是不朽的。
Does that feel good, or you’re scared?
这感觉很好，还是很害怕？
I worked hard with the WordPress folks, the Automattic folks, on the bot.
我与 WordPress 人员、Automattic 人员一起在机器人上努力工作。
The first thing I did was, I made it so it would never use the pronoun I.
我做的第一件事是，我做到了它永远不会使用代词“我”。
If it does, that’s a bug.
如果确实如此，那就是一个错误。
It doesn’t say I think this and I think that.
它没有说我想这个，我想那个。
It says, Seth wrote about this and he said so and so, and then it gives links.
上面说，赛斯写过这件事，他说了这样那样的话，然后它给出了链接。
What I like about it is that it is, in and of itself, very clear about what it’s good at, and it doesn’t pretend that it is me because it’s not me.
我喜欢它的地方在于，它本身非常清楚自己擅长什么，而且它不会因为不是我而假装是我。
I just had a call yesterday with a really big, famous tech company, and they’re talking about bringing out a bot that does none of those things.
昨天我刚刚和一家非常大、著名的科技公司通了电话，他们正在谈论推出一个不做这些事情的机器人。
That’s basically an engineering gimmick that will trick a whole bunch of people into thinking it’s smart, but after you poke it twice, all the air comes out of the balloon.
这基本上是一个工程噱头，会欺骗一大堆人，让他们认为它很聪明，但当你戳它两次后，所有的空气都会从气球中排出。
I think that’s a huge mistake.
我认为这是一个巨大的错误。
What we need to do, no matter what we market, no matter what opportunity we bring people, is make it fit in the box in which it is contained.
无论我们推销什么，无论我们为人们带来什么机会，我们需要做的就是让它适合它所在的盒子。
Go to the edges, but don’t imagine that pretending it’s bigger than those edges is going to last because it won’t.
走到边缘，但不要想象假装它比这些边缘更大会持续下去，因为它不会。
Will there be an open-source bot — a bit like the Sydney character that was part of ChatGPT for a while before they neutered it — that everyone will just talk to, maybe for many hours?
是否会出现一个开源机器人 ——有点像悉尼角色，在被阉割之前曾在 ChatGPT 中存在过一段时间—— 每个人都会与之交谈，也许会聊上好几个小时？
Maybe only 10 percent of the population, but they’ll have some kind of emotional relationship with the thing.
也许只有 10% 的人口，但他们会与该事物产生某种情感关系。
Well, there’s no doubt in my mind that we’re going to see thousands and thousands of variations on LLMs because now that we know the problem can be solved, it’s going to be solved in many different ways.
嗯，毫无疑问，在我看来，我们将看到法学硕士的成千上万种变体，因为现在我们知道问题可以解决，它将以许多不同的方式解决。
But what is it good at?
但它擅长什么？
I think it’s good at a couple things.
我认为它在几件事上都有好处。
First of all, it works cheap.
首先，它的工作原理很便宜。
Second, it’s always on.
其次，它始终处于开启状态。
The combination of those two things is what most people are missing.
这两件事的结合是大多数人所缺少的。
They’re saying, “Is this as good as asking Tyler a question about today’s news?” No, it’s not, but that’s not what it’s going to be good at.
他们说，“这和问泰勒一个关于今天新闻的问题一样好吗？”不，不是，但这不是它所擅长的。
It’s good at being always on and cheap.
它的优点是始终在线且价格便宜。
What that means, for example, is that cognitive behavioral therapy, which is so effective for some people — instead of waiting all week for your 50-minute session, you’ll have 20 sessions a day.
例如，这意味着认知行为疗法对某些人非常有效 ——您无需整周等待 50 分钟的疗程，而是每天进行 20 次疗程。
You’ll just touch it every time you’re feeling anxious.
每当你感到焦虑时，你就会触摸它。
It will give you an exercise based on who you are and what you said to it last time.
它会根据你是谁以及你上次对它说的话给你一个练习。
Then you’ll go back to what you were doing.
然后你会回到你正在做的事情。
All around us, things in our life are going to be enabled by this omnipresent cheap thing with a memory.
在我们周围，我们生活中的一切都将由这种无所不在的廉价的、有记忆的东西来实现。
Yes, some of them are going to have a personality and it’s going to wreak chaos in a whole bunch of different ways, especially where you started this conversation: direct mail scams, spam.
是的，他们中的一些人会具有个性，并且会以各种不同的方式造成混乱，尤其是在您开始对话的地方：直邮诈骗、垃圾邮件。
Imagine instructing a ChatGPT, “All right, here are 5,000 people on LinkedIn.
想象一下，指导 ChatGPT：“好吧，LinkedIn 上有 5,000 人。
Go learn about each one of them.
去了解一下他们每一个人。
Compose an email to each one pretending you know them, mentioning facts and connections, and scam them out of something.
给每个人写一封电子邮件，假装你认识他们，提及事实和联系，然后骗取他们的东西。
And by the way, please do that over and over and over again forever.” That’s got to be happening right now.
顺便说一句，请永远一遍又一遍地这样做。”这一定是现在正在发生的事情。
It’s going to be a mess.
这将会是一团糟。
Are there general truths about how marketing to women is different from marketing to men?
关于针对女性的营销与针对男性的营销有何不同，是否有普遍的事实？
I don’t mean always true, but generalities that are mostly true.
我并不是说总是正确的，而是说大多数情况下都是正确的。
What we do when we do almost any work that involves statistics, whether it’s economics or marketing or sales or engineering, is we make assumptions and generalizations about these people that we are seeking to serve.
当我们从事几乎所有涉及统计的工作时，无论是经济学、营销、销售还是工程，我们所做的就是对我们寻求服务的这些人做出假设和概括。
We assume that a bunch of people are going to be right-handed.
我们假设一群人都是右撇子。
If this thing has to preference right-handed or left-handed, it’s going to preference right-handed because we have to make these assumptions.
如果这个东西必须优先选择右手或左手，它就会优先选择右手，因为我们必须做出这些假设。
All of the generalizations are false, and many of the generalizations are useful.
所有的概括都是错误的，但许多概括是有用的。
Is it useful to imagine that, in general, a large group of undifferentiated men will respond to something differently than a large group of undifferentiated women?
想象一下，一般来说，一大群未分化的男性会对某些事情做出与一大群未分化的女性不同的反应，这有用吗？
Yes, but it is not useful or fair or moral to then take that useful generalization and apply it to an individual.
是的，但是将这种有用的概括应用到个人身上是没有用的、不公平的或不道德的。
What is an important truth about marketing that very few of your peers would agree with you on?
关于营销的一个重要事实是什么，但你的同行很少会同意你的观点？
About marketing?
关于营销？
My peers?
我的同龄人？
People you respect and are smart, but you think, “Well, here’s this thing.
你尊重并且聪明的人，但你会想，“嗯，这就是这个东西。
I believe it’s true, and the rest of them just don’t quite get it yet.”
我相信这是真的，但其他人还不太明白。”
Well, I think that some of the things you and I have been bumping into as you’ve been sharing your questions and your readers’ questions gets to the heart of it.
好吧，我认为当你分享你的问题和读者的问题时，你和我遇到的一些事情触及了问题的核心。
I don’t think most people understand what marketing is.
我认为大多数人不明白什么是营销。
Most people think marketing is hustle and hassle and hype and self-aggrandization and cheating and stealing.
大多数人认为营销是喧嚣、麻烦、炒作、自我夸大、欺骗和偷窃。
Well, those need special names, but that’s not what marketing is.
好吧，这些需要特殊的名称，但这不是营销的目的。
Marketing is telling a true story that serves the people you’re telling it to and that spreads.
营销就是讲述一个真实的故事，为你所讲述的人服务并传播。
That’s what marketing is.
这就是营销。
If somebody says they’re a marketer, and they’re busy hassling people, I say, “No, you’re not.”
如果有人说他们是营销人员，而且他们正忙着骚扰别人，我会说，“不，你不是。”
If you’re looking at a young person, talking with a young person — they’re thinking they might, in some way, become a marketer.
如果你看着一个年轻人，与一个年轻人交谈——他们认为他们可能会以某种方式成为一名营销人员。
I know that term is not entirely well defined.
我知道这个词的定义并不完全明确。
They might just be a content producer.
他们可能只是内容制作者。
But when it comes to marketing, what are the skills you look for to identify who will be good at it?
但在营销方面，您需要哪些技能来确定谁擅长营销？
Of course, intelligence, hard work, but what would be a nonobvious answer, something you look for?
当然，智力、努力工作，但是什么是一个不明显的答案，你在寻找什么？
Anybody who has actually done marketing — not worked in a marketing department and gone to meetings, but actually done marketing — has found that the only thing that matters is empathy.
任何真正做过营销的人——“不是在营销部门工作并参加过会议，而是真正做过营销”——都会发现唯一重要的是同理心。
When I get a note from someone who says, “I want to be a marketer,” I point out that of my 21 books, only 6 are about marketing.
当我收到某人的留言说：“我想成为一名营销人员”时，我会指出，在我的 21 本书中，只有 6 本是关于营销的。
If you want to be a marketer, go market something.
如果你想成为一名营销人员，就去营销一些东西。
Go buy a bunch of stuff at a garage sale and sell it at a profit on eBay.
去车库拍卖会上买一堆东西，然后在 eBay 上出售以赚取利润。
Go raise $20,000 for charity.
为慈善事业筹集 20,000 美元。
If you’re out there raising money for charity, and you’re calling on a billionaire to get them to put up a few million dollars to name a building after themselves, you’re saying to yourself, “I would never put $4 million into this campus to name a building after myself.” Well, if that’s what you’re saying, you can’t serve this person because they have all their short-term problem solved, and what they’re looking for is a legacy and status.
如果你正在为慈善事业筹集资金，并且你呼吁一位亿万富翁投入几百万美元，以自己的名字命名一栋建筑，你就会对自己说：“我永远不会向这个校园投入 400 万美元，以我自己的名字命名一栋建筑。”好吧，如果这就是你的意思，你就不能为这个人服务，因为他们已经解决了所有的短期问题，而他们正在寻找的是遗产和地位。
This is a bargain at $4 million.
这是 400 万美元的便宜货。
The empathy that is necessary is to say, well, I wouldn’t drink Coke for breakfast, but this person likes drinking Coke for breakfast, and I wouldn’t wear pantyhose, but this person wants to.
必要的同理心是说，好吧，我早餐不会喝可乐，但这个人早餐喜欢喝可乐，我不会穿连裤袜，但这个人想穿。
The short version is, you don’t need to be a cancer survivor to be an oncologist.
简而言之，您不需要成为癌症幸存者才能成为肿瘤学家。
What you need to be an oncologist is to have empathy for somebody who’s been through cancer.
作为一名肿瘤学家，你需要对经历过癌症的人抱有同理心。
Which is the best Miles Davis album?
迈尔斯·戴维斯最好的专辑是哪一张？
Well, even though I’ve heard many of them, when I have the choice, I still play Kind of Blue.
好吧，尽管我听过很多，但当我有选择的时候，我仍然会玩《Kind of Blue》。
I might say one of the live versions of Bitches Brew, the later work, and Sketches of Spain I’m very fond of.
我可能会说《Bitches Brew》的现场版本之一，后来的作品，以及我非常喜欢的《Sketches of Spain》。
I think those are great choices.
我认为这些都是很好的选择。
For me, Miles’s journey is at least as important as Miles’s music.
对我来说，迈尔斯的旅程至少和迈尔斯的音乐一样重要。
Which is the best or your favorite Stephen King novel?
哪一本是最好的或你最喜欢的斯蒂芬·金小说？
I can’t read scary books.
我不能读恐怖的书。
You just don’t do it?
你就是不这样做？
Nope.
没有。
Do you like horror movies?
你喜欢恐怖片吗？
Nope, can’t even walk into the theater.
不，甚至不能走进剧院。
Do you find the Three Stooges funny?
你觉得三个臭皮匠有趣吗？
The Three Stooges episode where Curly is in the tub with the pipes, and they keep leaking?
《三个臭皮匠》中卷毛和水管一起在浴缸里，而且水管一直漏水？
Yes, I love classic Three Stooges.
是的，我喜欢经典的三个臭皮匠。
There were not that many classic Three Stooges moments, but they were just so good at what they did.
三个臭皮匠的经典时刻并不多，但他们的表现却非常出色。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25yVhilQuhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25yVhilQuhk
What is the complicated thing they did?
他们做了什么复杂的事情？
How do you think about it?
你觉得怎么样？
It’s a cartoon come to life.
这是一部栩栩如生的卡通片。
We know they don’t hate each other, and we know they’re not actually being injured.
我们知道他们并不讨厌对方，我们也知道他们实际上并没有受伤。
In later iterations of slapstick, particularly in Hollywood in the ’80s or ’90s, they lost both of those things.
在后来的闹剧迭代中，特别是在 80 年代或 90 年代的好莱坞，他们失去了这两点。
They either made it too personal, or they made it too real.
他们要么把它做得太个人化，要么把它做得太真实。
As a result, they got into an uncanny valley where it didn’t feel like a cartoon anymore.
结果，他们进入了一个恐怖谷，感觉不再像动画片了。
I think I need it to be jittery 1936 footage for me to suspend disbelief and to imagine I’m just watching a perfectly timed cartoon.
我想我需要它是 1936 年的紧张镜头，让我停止怀疑，想象自己只是在观看一部时机完美的动画片。
There’s a Thai restaurant you mentioned in one of your books.
您在一本书中提到了一家泰国餐厅。
Forgive my pronunciation, but I think it’s SriPraPhai.
请原谅我的发音，但我认为这是 SriPraPhai。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
I think she pronounced it SriPraPhai.
我想她念的是 SriPraPhai。
What makes that restaurant special?
那家餐厅有何特别之处？
Why did you mention it?
你为什么提到它？
Okay, well, first, it’s closed on Wednesday.
好吧，首先，周三关门。
If you want to go, don’t make a special trip because you’ll be disappointed
如果你想去，就不要专程去，因为你会失望的
Tell us where it is.
告诉我们它在哪里。
She has a couple branches in Queens and New York.
她在皇后区和纽约有几家分店。
What she did was, she showed up when everyone was pushing edge case restaurants toward the center — dumb it down, serve Pad Thai, make this thing popular.
她所做的是，当每个人都在将边缘案例餐馆推向中心时，她出现了——将其简化，提供泰式炒河粉，让这件事变得流行。
What she did was, she made food for her family, and she did it without apology.
她所做的是，她为家人做食物，而且她没有道歉。
She showed up with this warmth and connection.
她带着这种温暖和联系出现了。
My family and I would go often, and she would greet us, and we would sit with her.
我和我的家人经常去，她会向我们打招呼，我们会和她坐在一起。
It’s grown to four times the size, plus opened a couple others.
它的尺寸扩大到了四倍，并且还开了几个。
But it hasn’t lost what she set out to do, which is, if you want to make a lot of money, you shouldn’t open a restaurant, but if you want to make a difference and stand for something in your culture, this is a good way to do it.
但这并没有失去她的初衷，那就是，如果你想赚很多钱，你不应该开餐馆，但如果你想有所作为并代表你的文化中的某些东西，这是一个很好的方法。
In the last year or two, auction prices for Jasper Johns have gone down somewhat.
在过去的一两年里，贾斯珀琼斯的拍卖价格有所下降。
Do you think he’s viewed as too classic or too fusty?
你认为他是否被视为太经典或太陈旧？
What’s going on with his work?
他的工作进展如何？
Why hasn’t he ascended to just being America’s artist and holding that designation forever?
为什么他没有成为美国艺术家并永远保留这个称号？
As I mentioned, I grew up in Buffalo.
正如我提到的，我在布法罗长大。
My mom was the first woman on the board of the Albright-Knox.
我妈妈是奥尔布赖特-诺克斯董事会的第一位女性。
The Albright-Knox is a —
奥尔布赖特-诺克斯是 a —
A great museum.
一个很棒的博物馆。
Great museum, one of the most important contemporary art museums in the country.
伟大的博物馆，该国最重要的当代艺术博物馆之一。
You walk into the Clyfford Still room, and you see magic.
当你走进 Clyfford Still 房间时，你会看到魔法。
You see Jasper Johns or Andy Warhol.
你会看到贾斯培·琼斯或安迪·沃霍尔。
You see what happened when we started to separate craft from art in the post-photography world.
你会看到当我们开始在后摄影世界将工艺与艺术分开时发生了什么。
All of that is real.
这一切都是真实的。
What is not real is how much paintings cost at auction.
不真实的是画作在拍卖会上的售价是多少。
How much paintings cost at auction is a by-product of half money laundering and half speculation.
画作的拍卖价格一半是洗钱，一半是投机的副产品。
It is a by-product of what do you think is going to go up in value tomorrow, not what is good art.
它是你认为明天会升值的东西的副产品，而不是好的艺术。
People who love art tend to understand the difference between the two, the same way a company can still be a good company and their stock price might not go up.
热爱艺术的人往往会理解两者之间的区别，就像一家公司仍然可以是一家好公司，但其股价可能不会上涨。
Who to you is the great underrated American visual artist?
对你来说谁是被低估的伟大的美国视觉艺术家？
Oh, I have so many choices.
哦，我有很多选择。
I might say Shepard Fairey.
我可能会说谢泼德·费尔雷。
He was right on the edge of the gallery world and decided not to do that and pulled back a little bit.
他正处于画廊世界的边缘，决定不这样做并退缩了一点。
I would say Jill Greenberg, the photographer who has reinvented herself several times over and really shifted the way people look at photography.
我想说吉尔·格林伯格，这位摄影师多次重塑自己，真正改变了人们看待摄影的方式。
I’m sure a couple will come to me as soon as I stop talking, but I’ll put those two out first.
我确信我一停止说话就会有一对夫妇来找我，但我会先把这两个人放在一边。
I think I might say Richard Serra, who certainly is highly rated, but I meet smart people all the time who think he’s a fraud, and it’s amazing.
我想我可能会说理查德·塞拉，他的评价当然很高，但我总是遇到聪明人认为他是个骗子，这太神奇了。
He is not a fraud.
他不是骗子。
If you go to Dia Beacon and you have a heart and a soul, you will not leave Dia Beacon thinking that Richard Serra is a fraud.
如果你去迪亚比肯并且你有一颗心和一个灵魂，你就不会在离开迪亚比肯时认为理查德·塞拉是个骗子。
Jeff Koons — how does his work strike you?
杰夫·昆斯 — 他的作品如何打动你？
Genius, fraud, something else?
天才，欺诈，还是别的什么？
Anyone who’s willing to go that close to bankruptcy that many times cannot be a fraud.
任何愿意多次濒临破产的人都不可能是骗子。
You can look at any given piece of art — the balloon animals or the porn series — and say, “Yeah, it’s like he’s taken Duchamp too far.” But then you see what he had to do to make the balloon animal such an extraordinary specimen of what it could have been, how much it cost, how long it took, with no promise it was going to work.
你可以看着任何一件特定的艺术品——“气球动物或色情系列”——然后说，“是的，就像他把杜尚带得太远了。”但随后你就会看到他必须做什么才能使气球动物成为如此非凡的标本，它本来可以成为什么样的，它花费了多少钱，花了多长时间，而且不保证它会起作用。
It’s a different kind of craft, right?
这是一种不同的工艺，对吧？
I had a back-and-forth with someone the other day about Duchamp and The Fountain.
前几天我和某人就杜尚和喷泉进行了反复讨论。
For people who are listening at home, one of the most important pieces of art of the 20th century is a urinal that is widely attributed to Marcel Duchamp.
对于在家聆听的人来说，20 世纪最重要的艺术作品之一是小便池，它被广泛认为是马塞尔·杜尚 (Marcel Duchamp) 的作品。
But in fact, it’s quite possible that the Baroness Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven created it, and he just put his name on it so that the misogynistic art world would see it.
但事实上，它很可能是艾尔莎·冯·弗雷塔格-洛林霍芬男爵夫人创作的，他只是把自己的名字写在上面，以便厌恶女性的艺术界能够看到它。
But what’s interesting about it is, once you have a readymade urinal in an art exhibit, what do you do after that?
但有趣的是，一旦你在艺术展上有了现成的小便池，之后你会做什么？
That’s why Duchamp was often called the last artist because he got the joke.
这就是为什么杜尚经常被称为最后一位艺术家，因为他明白了这个笑话。
He said the joke out loud.
他大声地说出了这个笑话。
He put a bench from the hardware store in MoMA.
他从现代艺术博物馆的五金店买了一条长凳。
But after that, we still have artists because what art is, is a story that resonates with the viewer and changes us.
但在那之后，我们仍然有艺术家，因为艺术是什么，是一个与观众产生共鸣并改变我们的故事。
That’s what the book is about: significance, the search for meaning.
这就是这本书的主题：意义，寻找意义。
It’s not just visual artists that look for meaning.
不仅仅是视觉艺术家在寻找意义。
All of us want meaning.
我们所有人都想要意义。
If you can find meaning at Dia Beacon, that’s fantastic, but every day when we go to work, we’ve got to figure out a way to find meaning.
如果你能在 Dia Beacon 找到意义，那就太棒了，但每天我们上班时，我们都必须找到一种方法来寻找意义。
Who’s an example of a major visual artist whose work you just don’t get?
谁是一位主要视觉艺术家的例子，但你却看不到他的作品？
I think that there is a bunch of art from the ’80s, where it was mostly assemblages of trash, and then we added to it video and noise.
我认为有很多 80 年代的艺术，其中大部分是垃圾的组合，然后我们添加了视频和噪音。
Often, when I’m at MoMA or someplace like that, you’ll walk into one of those side rooms where they’re playing something like that on repeat.
通常，当我在现代艺术博物馆或类似的地方时，你会走进其中一间侧室，那里正在重复播放类似的音乐。
It’s quite possible that if I spent a few hours sitting with it and looking at it and thinking about it, I could get what the artist was after.
如果我花几个小时坐在它旁边，看着它并思考它，我很可能就能得到艺术家想要的东西。
But there’s so much other stuff in the museum that might pay off that time better that I tend to move on.
但博物馆里还有很多其他的东西，可能会更值得我花时间去参观，所以我倾向于继续前进。
It’s not that I don’t like these people.
并不是我不喜欢这些人。
I don’t even know their names.
我什至不知道他们的名字。
I’m just saying I don’t get it.
我只是说我不明白。
How has immersing yourself in the visual arts improved the other things you do, other than the obvious, “Oh, I try to have my work look nice”?
除了显而易见的“哦，我努力让我的作品看起来不错”之外，沉浸在视觉艺术中如何改善你所做的其他事情？
Oh, it has nothing to do with making my work look nice.
哦，这和我的作品好看一点关系都没有。
I know.
我知道。
It’s about the liminal space between here and there.
这是关于这里和那里之间的界限空间。
The best audiobook ever recorded is Just Kids by Patti Smith.
有史以来最好的有声读物是帕蒂·史密斯的《Just Kids》。
It’s not about Patti Smith the rockstar; it’s about Patti Smith on a journey from someplace that’s sort of safe to someplace that’s important.
这与摇滚明星帕蒂·史密斯无关；而是与摇滚明星帕蒂·史密斯有关。这是关于帕蒂史密斯从一个安全的地方到一个重要的地方的旅程。
When I see artists — whether it’s Miles Davis or Herbie Hancock or Shepard Fairey — do that, that’s what I want.
当我看到艺术家时——无论是迈尔斯·戴维斯、赫比·汉考克还是谢泼德·费尔雷——这样做，这就是我想要的。
That is what gets me out of bed in the morning.
这就是让我早上起床的原因。
I am not trying to build companies and make a profit.
我并不是想建立公司并赚取利润。
I’m trying to feel that feeling again of, “Did I do something generative where I explored a liminal space between here and there?” The coolest thing about contemporary art is you can feel that feeling in three seconds if you’re in the right place at the right time, whereas it takes much longer when you’re reading a book.
我试图再次感受到那种感觉，“我是否做了一些创造性的事情，探索了这里和那里之间的阈限空间？”当代艺术最酷的一点是，如果你在正确的时间出现在正确的地点，你可以在三秒钟内感受到这种感觉，而当你读书时，需要更长的时间。
You’ve been very active in online education.
您在在线教育方面非常活跃。
What is the biggest problem with scaling the education itself?
扩大教育本身最大的问题是什么？
Oh, this one is really worth diving into because you’re a teacher too.
哦，这个真的值得深入研究，因为你也是一名老师。
There’s a huge difference between learning and education.
学习和教育之间存在巨大差异。
Education is compliance-based, top-down authority, certificate-granting.
教育是合规、自上而下、颁发证书的。
It is checking the boxes and proving that you have this thing that used to be scarce is yours now.
它正在检查方框并证明你拥有这个曾经稀缺的东西现在是你的了。
Learning is all autodidactic.
学习都是自学的。
Learning is, did you change by doing a thing?
学习就是，你通过做一件事改变了吗？
When online showed up, we had the chance to create online learning, and yet, almost all the money and almost all the time went into online education, and that’s heartbreaking to me.
当在线出现时，我们有机会创建在线学习，然而，几乎所有的钱和几乎所有的时间都投入了在线教育，这让我心碎。
I think online education, while it’s pluralistic in the sense that we can get to more people, is a pale shadow of what online learning could be, and my hope is that AI could help with that.
我认为在线教育虽然是多元化的，因为我们可以接触到更多的人，但与在线学习相比，它只是一个苍白的影子，我希望人工智能可以在这方面提供帮助。
What, concretely, do we need to change to make that happen?
具体来说，我们需要做出哪些改变才能实现这一目标？
Well, the first thing is accreditation and certificates because they have to go with education and they cannot go with learning.
首先是认证和证书，因为它们必须与教育相伴，而不能与学习相伴。
Learning is a body of work.
学习是一项工作。
It is who you become, not what piece of paper you get.
重要的是你成为了什么样的人，而不是你得到了一张什么纸。
When you watch somebody .
当你观察某人时。
.
。
.
。
Let’s say you want to make someone into a baseball fan.
假设您想让某人成为棒球迷。
I’m assuming, from your question, you’re a baseball fan.
从你的问题来看，我假设你是一名棒球迷。
Not since I was young.
从小就没有。
It’s too slow and boring for me now, along the lines of your comment.
按照你的评论，现在对我来说太慢而且无聊。
But let’s say we want to make a baseball fan.
但假设我们想成为一名棒球迷。
Yes.
是的。
You don’t teach them the history of baseball, give them the baseball encyclopedia, quiz them about Abner Doubleday, and if they do well on the test, let them go to a game.
你不会教他们棒球的历史，给他们棒球百科全书，向他们询问有关阿布纳·道布尔戴的事情，如果他们在测试中表现出色，就让他们去看一场比赛。
What you do is get them enrolled in the journey of being a baseball fan because five minutes of it was fun, and they want it again.
你要做的就是让他们加入成为棒球迷的旅程，因为五分钟很有趣，而且他们想要再次体验。
The next thing you know, they’re learning statistics because they want to.
接下来你就会知道，他们正在学习统计学，因为他们想这样做。
They’re learning facts because they want to, not because there’s going to be a test.
他们学习事实是因为他们想这样做，而不是因为要进行测试。
The magic of the original LOGO software for kids, the magic of all the interactions we’ve been capable of encouraging people to have online, is people choose to learn, and then their body of work follows from that.
最初的 LOGO 儿童软件的魔力，以及我们能够鼓励人们进行在线互动的魔力，就在于人们选择学习，然后他们的工作随之而来。
What we can do with a patient AI or a properly structured workshop online is create the conditions for people to want to do the work, never because it’s on the test.
我们可以利用耐心的人工智能或结构合理的在线研讨会为人们创造条件，让他们愿意做这项工作，而不是因为它正在测试中。
If someone says, “Will this be on the test?” you know which kind of room you’re in.
如果有人说：“这个会考吗？”你知道自己身处哪种房间。
Is the subscription model the future of online education?
订阅模式是在线教育的未来吗？
It will be free.
它将是免费的。
It’ll be not-for-profit.
这将是非营利性的。
What does it look like if things go the way you want?
如果事情按照你想要的方式发展，会是什么样子？
Well, many of the things that have become ingrained in our online lives are free.
嗯，我们在线生活中根深蒂固的许多东西都是免费的。
Email, Wikipedia, for now, ChatGPT.
电子邮件、维基百科，现在是 ChatGPT。
Free is a really compelling way for an idea to spread.
免费是传播想法的一种非常引人注目的方式。
But enrollment often comes with some risk and tension.
但入学往往会带来一些风险和紧张。
The enrollment that you feel if you paid $50 to be part of a community — you’re saying to yourself, “Well, this is a sunk cost, but I better defend it.
如果你支付 50 美元成为社区的一部分，你所感受到的注册 ——你会对自己说，“好吧，这是沉没成本，但我最好捍卫它。
I’ve got to show up tomorrow.”
我明天必须出现。”
There are other kinds of enrollment, other kinds of commitment.
还有其他类型的注册、其他类型的承诺。
My hope is that as the marginal cost of these online learning institutions goes down, we come up with other forms of socially appropriate emotional enrollment so that people, regardless of their income or where they live, can do it if they’re committed.
我的希望是，随着这些在线学习机构的边际成本下降，我们会提出其他形式的适合社会的情感注册，以便人们，无论收入如何或居住在哪里，只要他们愿意，就可以做到。
The Carbon Almanac, which I did a year and a half of my life full-time as a volunteer — 300 other people did it with me.
我作为志愿者花了一年半的时间全职完成《碳年鉴》——还有 300 个人和我一起做这件事。
Not one of us got paid.
我们没有人得到报酬。
Some people lasted for an hour, and they were gone, and other people were there hours and hours and hours and hours.
有些人坚持了一个小时，然后就消失了，而另一些人则在那里呆了几个小时、几个小时、几个小时。
They emotionally chose to enroll, and that’s what created the magic.
他们在情感上选择了入学，这就是创造奇迹的原因。
We need to figure out how to do that for others at scale.
我们需要弄清楚如何大规模地为其他人做到这一点。
What makes for a good motivational speaker?
优秀的励志演讲者需要具备哪些要素？
All motivation is self-motivation.
所有的动力都是自我激励。
What a motivational speaker does is not say, “Sending me money will get you what you want.” They do the opposite of that.
励志演说家所做的并不是说：“给我钱就能得到你想要的东西。”他们的做法恰恰相反。
They establish the emotional connection by transferring that emotion to the recipient so that person can create the conditions for them to achieve what they thought they could achieve.
他们通过将情感转移给接收者来建立情感联系，以便接收者可以为他们创造条件来实现他们认为可以实现的目标。
Anything beyond that starts being a scam.
除此之外的任何事情都开始成为骗局。
Anything beyond that, where you are promising you can heal someone’s illness or you’re promising they can be a millionaire — that’s not what motivational speaking is for.
除此之外，如果你承诺你可以治愈某人的疾病，或者你承诺他们可以成为百万富翁，那么这都不是励志演讲的目的。
When you give a talk, what is it about that process that you enjoy?
当你演讲时，你喜欢这个过程的什么？
What’s the complex, fundamental thing that gets you excited each time?
每次让您兴奋的复杂而基本的事情是什么？
For the last 25 years, I’ve probably given a thousand speeches altogether.
在过去的 25 年里，我可能总共发表了一千场演讲。
And you’re not bored, right?
而且你并不无聊，对吧？
I am definitely not bored.
我绝对不无聊。
I will tell you, selfishly or generously, depending on your point of view, I don’t fly anymore because that was the part I hated the most.
我会告诉你，无论是自私还是慷慨，取决于你的观点，我不再坐飞机了，因为那是我最讨厌的部分。
Schlepping there, spending 12 hours to get to a place where, for 45 minutes, I could do my work and then have to figure out how to get home.
拖着沉重的脚步，花了 12 个小时才到达一个地方，在那里我可以用 45 分钟完成我的工作，然后必须弄清楚如何回家。
I also didn’t like the way it felt to burn quite that much carbon for just that reason.
我也不喜欢因为这个原因而燃烧那么多碳的感觉。
But that aside, here’s this group of people who are giving me the benefit of the doubt.
但除此之外，还有一群人给了我无罪推论。
Not completely, but enough that for the first three minutes, they will follow me on this journey.
不完全，但足够了，在前三分钟，他们会跟随我踏上这段旅程。
What can I do in three minutes to earn six more minutes?
我可以在三分钟内做什么才能多赚六分钟？
Then, nine minutes into it, how can I bring something to that room that people will talk about to themselves and to others tomorrow or in six months?
然后，九分钟后，我怎样才能把一些东西带到那个房间，让人们在明天或六个月后与自己和他人谈论？
I don’t memorize my talk.
我不记得我的演讲。
I have 180 slides, none with words on them.
我有 180 张幻灯片，没有一张是有文字的。
A slide comes up, and I tell a story about it, and I’m listening and interacting with the room.
出现一张幻灯片，我讲述一个关于它的故事，我正在倾听并与房间互动。
On Zoom, I can do my work, but I have to pretend I can hear the room.
在 Zoom 上，我可以做我的工作，但我必须假装我能听到房间里的声音。
That is really exhausting because what I discovered is, it’s that interplay with the tension that enables me to do my work the best way.
这确实让人筋疲力尽，因为我发现，正是这种与紧张的相互作用使我能够以最好的方式完成工作。
In which regards do you think of a talk you give as a team process in the way that you discuss in your book, The Song of Significance?
您在哪些方面认为您的演讲是一个团队过程，就像您在《意义之歌》一书中讨论的那样？
On Zoom, the way I do it now is, I use breakout rooms.
在 Zoom 上，我现在的做法是使用分组讨论室。
What I do with breakout rooms is, if there’s a hundred people, we’ll divide into 20 rooms of five.
我对分组讨论室的做法是，如果有 100 人，我们将分成 20 个房间，每间 5 个。
When people go to that room of five, something magic happens, something that does not happen to them at work.
当人们走进那个五个人的房间时，神奇的事情就会发生，而这些事情在他们的工作中不会发生。
It is extraordinary to see what happens when you are in a room for seven minutes with four other people and there is social pressure for you to speak and connect, not to be judged, not to be criticized, but to be generative.
当你和另外四个人在一个房间里呆七分钟，社会压力要求你说话和交流，而不是被评判，不是被批评，而是要富有创造力时，看到发生的事情是非同寻常的。
It moves people — sometimes to tears — to be seen, to be treated with respect, to not have to worry about the boss.
它让人们感动——“有时会流泪”——被人看见、受到尊重、不必担心老板。
It has highlighted for me how rare that is in our days, that what we’ve done with our days is, we’ve grooved them into a script, and we’re just waiting to find out if this will be on the test.
这对我来说强调了这在我们这个时代是多么罕见，我们这些天所做的就是，我们已经将它们写入了脚本，我们只是在等待看看这是否会进行测试。
How do I get an A?
我怎样才能得到A？
How do I do what I did yesterday?
我该怎么做我昨天做的事情？
So, part of the inspiration for the book is to help people understand that human beings are capable of extraordinary contributions if we just trust them enough to listen.
因此，这本书的部分灵感是帮助人们理解，如果我们足够信任他们并倾听，他们就有能力做出非凡的贡献。
When you meet and talk with anthropologists, are you impressed by them?
当您与人类学家见面并交谈时，您对他们印象深刻吗？
Or do you feel there’s something missing in their worldview?
或者你觉得他们的世界观缺少什么？
Do you feel you’re one of them or you’ve transcended them?
你觉得自己是他们中的一员还是超越了他们？
What’s your take?
你怎么看？
I have a confession to make.
我有件事要坦白。
I don’t know if I’ve ever met an anthropologist.
我不知道我是否见过人类学家。
But that’s endogenous.
但这是内生的。
In your line of work, they’re probably just down the hall.
在你的工作中，他们可能就在大厅里。
But aren’t we all anthropologists?
但我们不都是人类学家吗？
That’s my view.
这是我的观点。
It’s the most fundamental of all the social sciences, and we’re all doing it.
这是所有社会科学中最基本的，我们都在做。
They get this funny designation as if they’re the ones doing it.
他们得到了这个有趣的称号，就好像他们就是这样做的人一样。
I look at them, not in a hostile or critical way, but it’s like, “What made you an anthropologist?
我不是以敌意或批评的方式看待他们，而是说：“是什么让你成为一名人类学家？
Is it just age?”
难道只是年龄的问题吗？”
You can say the same thing about economists, couldn’t you?
你也可以对经济学家说同样的话，不是吗？
Absolutely, and I do.
绝对是的，我也这么做。
.
。
What makes you a good cook?
是什么让你成为一名好厨师？
Lacking all humility, I am a really good cook.
尽管缺乏谦虚，我还是一个非常好的厨师。
The reason is, I don’t follow recipes.
原因是，我不遵循食谱。
I dance with them by understanding what the person who made the recipe had in mind.
我通过了解制作食谱的人的想法来与他们共舞。
Having created recipes myself — there’re some on my blog — when someone’s making a recipe, they don’t test — unless they’re Kenji — the difference between half a teaspoon and three-quarters of a teaspoon of something.
我自己创建了食谱 —— 我的博客上有一些 —— 当有人制作食谱时，他们不会测试 —— 除非他们是 Kenji —— 半茶匙和四分之三茶匙的东西之间的区别。
They’re not sitting there doing 4,000 variations.
他们不会坐在那里做 4,000 种变化。
They just make the thing, and then they write down the way they made it, but the way they made it is not the only way to make it.
他们只是制造东西，然后写下他们制造它的方式，但他们制造它的方式并不是唯一的制造方式。
There is a project here.
这里有一个项目。
I cook every night because I like the short-term nature of the project.
我每天晚上都会做饭，因为我喜欢这个项目的短期性质。
You can visualize the outcome, and if you understand the components, you can make it.
您可以将结果可视化，如果您了解其组成部分，您就可以实现它。
It will be slightly different every time, but it will be delicious because you understand.
每次都会略有不同，但因为你理解，所以会很美味。
When I find people who don’t like to cook or who say they are bad cooks, it’s simply because they’re trying to follow a recipe, and that feels like being an indentured servant.
当我发现那些不喜欢做饭或说自己厨艺不好的人时，那只是因为他们试图遵循食谱，而这感觉就像是一个契约仆人。
I am also a good cook.
我也是个好厨师。
Given your methods, how should one think about choosing a cookbook?
根据你的方法，人们应该如何考虑选择一本食谱？
For me, cooking changed when my wife got me a cooking class with Chris Schlesinger, who wrote the book Thrill of the Grill.
对我来说，当我妻子给我上克里斯·施莱辛格（Chris Schlesinger）的烹饪课时，烹饪发生了变化，克里斯·施莱辛格是《烧烤的刺激》一书的作者。
It’s one of the simplest cookbooks in the world.
这是世界上最简单的食谱之一。
You take protein and you put it on fire.
你摄入蛋白质，然后将其点燃。
After that, I bought a few foundational books: Think Like a Chef, some books from Alice Waters, Daniel Leaders’ groundbreaking books on baking.
之后，我买了一些基础书籍：像厨师一样思考、Alice Waters 的一些书籍、Daniel Leaders 的开创性烘焙书籍。
I didn’t buy books of recipes.
我没有买食谱书。
I bought books where someone who understood how to cook had a narrative about how it all fits together.
我买了一些书，里面有一个懂烹饪的人讲述了这一切是如何组合在一起的。
Now I own a lot of cookbooks, but I almost never touch them because the internet, because Kenji — you just type Kenji and then the name of whatever recipe, and you’ll find the best version of the recipe.
现在我拥有很多食谱，但我几乎从不碰它们，因为有互联网，因为 Kenji ——你只需输入 Kenji，然后输入任何食谱的名称，你就会找到食谱的最佳版本。
But you need to understand the fundamental.
但你需要了解基本原理。
That’s why certain kinds of baking are so hard because baking is magic.
这就是为什么某些类型的烘焙如此困难，因为烘焙是神奇的。
We don’t know, really, what’s happening.
我们真的不知道发生了什么。
There, you pretty much have to follow a recipe for certain things.
在那里，你几乎必须遵循某些事情的秘诀。
The other stuff — sweet potato noodles with sesame oil and buckwheat groats or whatever it is — you know what’s going on, and you can taste it as you go.
其他的东西 —— 红薯面条配芝麻油和荞麦片或者其他什么 —— 你知道发生了什么，你可以边吃边尝。
How can you cook without tasting?
不品尝怎么能做饭呢？
Chemistry is a way to think about what many cookbooks offer.
化学是思考许多烹饪书提供的内容的一种方式。
Knowledge of chemistry, but you couldn’t get it from a chemistry text.
化学知识，但你无法从化学课本中获得它。
Yeah, Harold McGee has done that beautifully.
是的，哈罗德·麦基在这方面做得非常出色。
What’s your best dish?
你最拿手的菜是什么？
For a long time, my best dish was my crispy tofu, which I put in the footnotes of my book Survival Is Not Enough, because I needed the world to know about my crispy tofu recipe.
很长一段时间，我最好的菜是脆豆腐，我把它放在我的《生存还不够》一书中的脚注中，因为我需要全世界都知道我的脆豆腐食谱。
Lately, I’m going to say it’s my tahini ginger date cookies because they’re so simple and you can’t stop eating them.
最近，我要说这是我的芝麻酱姜枣饼干，因为它们太简单了，你根本停不下来。
I also have a Pacojet, which I would strongly recommend to any crazy home cook.
我还有一台 Pacojet，我强烈推荐给任何疯狂的家庭厨师。
You can freeze stuff to 10 degrees below zero and then put it into this thing that spins in a vacuum at 10,000 rpm and turns whatever you froze into a creamy, delightful vegan dessert.
你可以将东西冷冻到零下 10 度，然后将其放入这个在真空中以 10,000 rpm 转速旋转的东西中，将你冷冻的任何东西变成奶油状、令人愉悦的纯素甜点。
What did you learn from Isaac Asimov?
你从艾萨克·阿西莫夫身上学到了什么？
Isaac worked with me when I was 24 years old.
当我 24 岁的时候，艾萨克和我一起工作。
He wrote and published 400 books.
他撰写并出版了 400 本书。
I was sitting in his living room in Lincoln Center in New York City, and I said, “Isaac” — being presumptuous — “how do you go about writing 400 books?” He said, “Here’s the secret.” He pointed to this old manual typewriter.
我坐在他位于纽约市林肯中心的客厅里，我说，“艾萨克” ——“自以为是”——“你如何着手写 400 本书？”他说：“这就是秘密。”他指着这台旧手动打字机。
He said, “Every morning, I sit in front of this typewriter at 7:00 am, and I type until noon.
他说：“每天早上7:00我都会坐在这台打字机前，一直打字到中午。
It doesn’t have to be good, but I have to keep typing.”
它不一定很好，但我必须继续打字。”
The lesson is, once your subconscious knows you’re going to keep typing no matter what, it becomes sufficiently embarrassed by the bad stuff that it will let some good stuff in.
我们的教训是，一旦你的潜意识知道无论如何你都会继续打字，它就会因为坏的东西而感到尴尬，从而让一些好的东西进来。
People who think they have writer’s block don’t have writer’s block.
自认为有写作障碍的人其实并没有写作障碍。
They have fear of bad writing.
他们害怕写得不好。
If you show me all your bad writing, sooner or later you’re going to have to show me some good writing.
如果你向我展示你所有糟糕的写作，那么迟早你将不得不向我展示一些好的写作。
How was he with you?
他和你在一起怎么样？
Encouraging?
鼓励吗？
Gruff?
粗暴？
What a delight.
真是令人高兴。
I licensed a lot of stuff in my career as a book packager.
在我作为图书包装商的职业生涯中，我获得了很多东西的许可。
Getting the rights to the robots novels was surprisingly inexpensive.
获得机器人小说的版权的成本出奇的便宜。
We worked together in figuring out what the video that we made was going to be.
我们一起努力弄清楚我们制作的视频是什么。
He always gave me — at 24, 25 years old — the benefit of the doubt.
他总是给我——“在24、25岁的时候”——“无罪推定”。
He always had a useful contribution, and he never got petulant or brought his ego to .
他总是做出有用的贡献，而且他从不脾气暴躁或自负。
.
。
.
。
“Didn’t you know I invented the robot?” He never said that.
“你不知道我发明了机器人吗？”他从来没有这么说过。
He just said, “How can we make this better together?” So many people who partner want to control, and he just wanted to make it better.
他只是说：“我们怎样才能一起让这件事变得更好？”那么多人合伙想要控制，而他只是想让事情变得更好。
In 2006, you published a famous blog post, “Advice to Aspiring or Young Writers.” How would you change that advice for 2023, if at all?
2006 年，您发表了一篇著名的博客文章“给有抱负或年轻作家的建议”。如果到了 2023 年，您会如何改变这一建议？
I’m pausing because I have written a lot of blog posts.
我暂停一下，因为我已经写了很多博客文章。
Give me a second to —
请给我一点时间 ——
You wrote two blog posts on advice to aspiring writers.
您写了两篇博客文章，为有抱负的作家提供建议。
There’s a former and a latter.
有前者和后者。
Okay.
好的。
Got it.
知道了。
Now I know which one you’re referring to.
现在我知道你指的是哪一个了。
We can proceed.
我们可以继续。
People send me notes — which I admire them for — saying, “I’m writing this book or writing this thing.
人们给我寄来纸条——我对此很钦佩——说，“我正在写这本书或写这个东西。
What should I do?” I decided to just list all of the things I could think of.
我该怎么办？我决定列出所有我能想到的事情。
If you type “advice for authors” at seths.blog, you’ll find them.
如果您在 seths.blog 上输入“给作者的建议”，您就会找到它们。
The short version is, publishing is not a business; publishing is an organized hobby.
简而言之，出版不是一门生意；而是一门生意。出版是一种有组织的爱好。
And there are things in book publishing that are metrics that appear real that aren’t actually useful.
在图书出版业中，有些指标看似真实，但实际上并没有什么用处。
So, the first step is to ignore the useless metrics.
因此，第一步是忽略无用的指标。
The New York Times Best Seller List is a fraud.
《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜是一个骗局。
It is not based on actual fact.
它不是基于事实。
Don’t bend your life out of proportion to show up on a list that doesn’t make any sense.
不要过度扭曲你的生活，让自己出现在一个没有任何意义的清单上。
But beyond that, why are you writing the book?
但除此之外，你为什么要写这本书？
Who are you writing the book for?
你为谁写这本书？
What change do you seek to make?
您想要做出什么改变？
Writing a book is a magical thing.
写书是一件神奇的事情。
It will make you better.
它会让你变得更好。
Everyone should write one.
每个人都应该写一篇。
Publishing a book is a totally different project, and most people shouldn’t publish their book.
出版一本书是一个完全不同的项目，大多数人不应该出版他们的书。
Maybe they should just give it away.
也许他们应该把它放弃。
The shortest version of the advice is — particularly if it’s a novel — take your first novel, post it on the internet for free, send it to 50 friends.
最短的建议是： ——尤其是小说的话——将你的第一部小说免费发布到互联网上，然后发送给 50 个朋友。
If it spreads, if other people want to read it, your second novel will get published, but if your first novel doesn’t spread when it’s free, you probably need to write a better novel.
如果它传播开来，如果其他人想读它，你的第二本小说就会出版，但如果你的第一部小说在免费时没有传播开，你可能需要写一本更好的小说。
The story behind your new book, The Song of Significance — what was the anthropological reasoning you went through as to why the world needs this book now?
您的新书《意义之歌》背后的故事——您对为什么世界现在需要这本书进行了哪些人类学推理？
Amazon lost a third of its annual profits to turnover in 2021.
2021 年，亚马逊年利润损失了三分之一。
Former Amazon executive David Risher, who’s now at Lyft, ordered all employees back to headquarters so he could watch them and surveil them even though they don’t want to go, and productivity is the lowest it’s been — correct me if I’m wrong — in 70 years of measuring it.
现任 Lyft 的亚马逊前高管 David Risher 命令所有员工返回总部，这样他就可以监视他们，即使他们不想去，生产力是 70 年来最低的——“如果我错了，请纠正我”。
All of which are a way of describing how we’re sitting here, watching billionaires firing disabled people online for kicks and living in a world where AI and robots and the race to the bottom is making a whole generation say, “Count me out.”
所有这些都在描述我们如何坐在这里，看着亿万富翁在网上解雇残疾人以获得乐趣，以及生活在一个人工智能和机器人以及逐底竞争让整整一代人说“别算我了”的世界里。
What occurred to me is, everyone knows the answer to the question, “What’s the best job you ever had?” If I ask you about the best job you ever had, you will remember not just how it made you feel, but how productive you were.
我想到的是，每个人都知道这个问题的答案：“你做过的最好的工作是什么？”如果我问你做过的最好的工作是什么，你不仅会记得它给你带来的感觉，还会记得你的工作效率。
Podcast host is my answer, of course.
当然，播客主持人是我的答案。
There you go.
就这样吧。
So, the question is, why can’t we create the conditions for people to have the best job they ever had?
所以，问题是，为什么我们不能创造条件让人们获得他们曾经拥有过的最好的工作呢？
Because it’s not that you didn’t have to work that hard.
因为这并不是说你不需要那么努力。
It’s not that you got paid a fortune.
这并不是说你得到了一大笔钱。
In fact, it’s probably the opposite.
事实上，情况可能恰恰相反。
It’s probably that people treated you with respect, that you achieved more than you thought you could, that you made a difference, that you did work that matters with people you care about.
可能是人们尊重你，你取得了比你想象的更多的成就，你做出了改变，你为你关心的人做了重要的工作。
Well, if we’re going to spend 100,000 hours at work in our lifetime, don’t we deserve that?
好吧，如果我们一生要花 100,000 个小时在工作上，难道我们不值得吗？
Why don’t we build that?
我们为什么不建造它呢？
That’s why I wrote the book.
这就是我写这本书的原因。
What do you think is the central insight you have about how to build that, that is otherwise under-emphasized?
您认为您对如何构建这一点的核心见解是什么，而这一点在其他方面却被低估了？
I think that Frederick Taylor’s demise is long overdue, that the purpose of a beehive is not to maximize the amount of honey we produce.
我认为弗雷德里克·泰勒早就该灭亡了，蜂箱的目的并不是最大化我们生产的蜂蜜数量。
The honey is a by-product of a successful beehive.
蜂蜜是成功蜂箱的副产品。
That what we have is the chance to get what we want by connecting with people who have a choice about where they work, who choose to enroll with us, to avoid the false proxies of “You look like me” or “You sound like me” or “I want to have lunch with you” when we hire people, and instead dance with the people from whatever background that are going to make our project better.
我们所拥有的是通过与那些可以选择工作地点、选择加入我们的人建立联系来获得我们想要的东西，以避免在我们招聘人员时出现“你看起来像我”或“你听起来像我”或“我想和你共进午餐”这样的虚假代理，而是与来自任何背景的人一起跳舞，这将使我们的项目变得更好。
When you lay it out that simply, people go, “Well, of course.” Then they go back to work in some place that demeans them and undermines them and asks them to phone it in.
当你把事情说得这么简单时，人们会说：“嗯，当然。”然后他们回到某个贬低他们、破坏他们的地方工作，并要求他们打电话举报。
It just breaks my heart to see that gap.
看到这个差距，我的心都碎了。
What’s the most important thing you changed your mind about when writing this book?
在写这本书时，您改变想法的最重要的事情是什么？
I vacillate wildly between optimism and pessimism.
我在乐观和悲观之间摇摆不定。
I find that optimism is a really useful way to do better tomorrow, but pessimism seems like a likely output from looking up close at what the world is really like.
我发现乐观是让明天做得更好的一种非常有用的方法，但悲观主义似乎是近距离观察世界真实情况的可能结果。
I have changed my mind about pockets of corporate America.
我改变了对美国企业界的看法。
I’ve changed my mind about the caste system and misogyny and how deeply it is rooted in so much of what we do.
我改变了对种姓制度和厌女症的看法，以及它在我们所做的很多事情中根深蒂固的程度。
I wrote an 800-page book that weighs 18 pounds, called What Does It Sound Like When You Change Your Mind?
我写了一本 800 页、重 18 磅的书，书名叫《当你改变主意时听起来会怎样？》
I like that sound.
我喜欢那个声音。
I like changing my mind.
我喜欢改变主意。
I try to do that a lot.
我经常这样做。
What is it that you have become increasingly optimistic about?
是什么让您变得越来越乐观？
When we started working on The Carbon Almanac, the first two months, almost all of us were in a stupor because it was so bad — the world and the trajectory of the world.
当我们开始制作《碳年鉴》的头两个月，几乎所有人都处于昏迷状态，因为它太糟糕了——世界和世界的轨迹。
What I am seeing is that a whole bunch of gears are turning around the world — how many solar plants China is building, and how fast we’re moving on fusion, finally.
我所看到的是，世界各地的一大堆齿轮正在转动——中国正在建设多少太阳能发电厂，以及我们最终在核聚变方面的进展速度有多快。
Also, just an awareness.
另外，只是一种意识。
I just have a hunch that maybe we will figure that out.
我只是有预感，也许我们会解决这个问题。
What is the detail you have become most increasingly pessimistic about?
您最感到悲观的细节是什么？
I think that our ability to rationalize our lazy, convenient, selfish, immoral, bad behavior is unbounded, and people will find a reason to justify the thing that they used to do because that’s how we evolved.
我认为，我们为自己的懒惰、方便、自私、不道德、不良行为合理化的能力是无限的，人们会找到理由为他们过去所做的事情辩护，因为这就是我们进化的方式。
One would hope that in the face of a real challenge or actual useful data, people would say, “Oh, I was wrong.
人们希望在面对真正的挑战或实际有用的数据时，人们会说：“哦，我错了。
I just changed my mind.” It’s really hard to do that.
我只是改变了主意。”这确实很难做到。
There was a piece in The Times just the other day about the bibs that long-distance runners wear at races.
前几天《泰晤士报》刊登了一篇关于长跑运动员在比赛中佩戴的号码布的文章。
There is no reason left for them to wear bibs.
他们没有理由戴围兜。
It’s not a big issue.
这不是什么大问题。
Everyone should say, “Oh, yeah, great, done.” But the bib defenders coming out of the woodwork, explaining, each in their own way, why we need bibs for people who are running in races — that’s just a microcosm of the human problem, which is, culture sticks around because it’s good at sticking around.
每个人都应该说：“哦，是的，太棒了，完成了。”但号码布的捍卫者们却突然冒出来，以各自的方式解释了为什么我们需要为参加比赛的人提供号码布——这只是人类问题的一个缩影，即文化之所以能够留下来，是因为它善于留下来。
But sometimes we need to change the culture, and we should wake up and say, “This is a good day to change the culture.”
但有时我们需要改变文化，我们应该醒来说：“这是改变文化的好日子。”
So, we’re all bib defenders in our own special ways.
所以，我们都是以自己特殊的方式捍卫号码布的人。
Correct!
正确的！
Well said.
说得好。
Bib Defenders.
围兜捍卫者。
That’s the name of the next book.
这是下一本书的名字。
Love that.
喜欢那个。
What is, for you, the bib?
对你来说，围兜是什么？
I think that I have probably held onto this 62-year-old’s perception of content and books and thoughtful output longer than the culture wants to embrace, the same way lots of artists have held onto the album as opposed to the single.
我想我对这位 62 岁老人对内容、书籍和深思熟虑的作品的看法可能比文化想要接受的时间要长，就像许多艺术家坚持专辑而不是单曲一样。
But my goal isn’t to be more popular, and so I’m really comfortable with the repercussions of what I’ve held onto.
但我的目标不是变得更受欢迎，所以我对我所坚持的东西的影响感到非常满意。
What was your first job ever?
你的第一份工作是什么？
My first job was as an entrepreneur at 14, selling biorhythms that were done on the University of Buffalo computer system.
我的第一份工作是 14 岁时作为一名企业家，销售在布法罗大学计算机系统上完成的生物节律。
Then I did some volunteer help, writing marketing material for a ski binding company that my dad worked for.
然后我做了一些志愿者帮助，为我父亲工作的一家滑雪固定器公司撰写营销材料。
My first real job was cleaning the grease off the hotdog machine at the Carousel snack bar in the Eastern Hills Mall, where I broke two coffee canisters my first day and learned the hard way that this wasn’t for me.
我的第一份真正的工作是清理东山购物中心旋转木马小吃店热狗机上的油脂，第一天我打破了两个咖啡罐，并惨痛地意识到这不适合我。
Then I got a job in a bagel factory, where I was almost killed by a bagel mixer capable of mixing 100 pounds of flour at a time.
然后我在一家百吉饼工厂找到了一份工作，在那里我差点被一台能够一次混合 100 磅面粉的百吉饼搅拌机杀死。
How do you think that growing up in Buffalo has shaped you?
您认为在布法罗长大对您有何影响？
Buffalo is not New York, even though it’s in New York State.
布法罗不是纽约，尽管它位于纽约州。
Buffalo is the Midwest.
布法罗是中西部地区。
Buffalo is hardworking people who like to make a thing, and it is juxtaposed with a music hall and a science museum and an art museum.
布法罗是勤劳的人们，喜欢创造东西，它与音乐厅、科学博物馆和艺术博物馆并列。
At the same time, most of my parents’ friends would happily go to the city to watch a football game, but never once went to the city to go to the museum.
与此同时，我父母的大多数朋友都会很高兴去城里看一场足球比赛，但从来没有去城里参观过博物馆。
So, I think what I learned is just how different people who seem the same really are.
所以，我认为我学到的是看似相同的人实际上是多么不同。
Until what age did you live in Buffalo?
您在布法罗住到几岁？
Until I was 18.
直到我18岁。
Were your bagels good?
你的百吉饼好吃吗？
It’s a source of controversy.
这是争议的根源。
My bagels were good, but The New Yorker, famous for its fact checkers, wrote a piece about the person who invented the everything bagel.
我的百吉饼很好吃，但是以事实核查而闻名的《纽约客》写了一篇关于百吉饼发明者的文章。
All I knew as I read that piece is that, at 17, I had been making everything bagels four years before that.
当我读到那篇文章时，我只知道，四年前，17 岁的我一直在制作百吉饼。
So, facetiously, I wrote a piece on my blog, saying, “If this person invented the everything bagel, I invented the everything bagel.” Not meaning I actually did, just meaning it’s in the air.
因此，我开玩笑地在博客上写了一篇文章，说：“如果这个人发明了百吉饼，那么我也发明了百吉饼。”并不是说我真的这么做了，只是说它在空气中。
Of course, there’s always been everything bagels.
当然，百吉饼总是有的。
Now, my kids and others regularly josh me about claiming to have invented the everything bagel because that’s not what I meant.
现在，我的孩子和其他人经常取笑我声称发明了百吉饼，因为那不是我的意思。
I like minimalist bagels, just cream cheese, smoked salmon, nothing else.
我喜欢极简主义的百吉饼，只有奶油芝士、烟熏三文鱼，没有别的。
There you go.
就这样吧。
I’m with you.
我和你在一起。
What has been the best job you’ve ever had?
你做过的最好的工作是什么？
I’ve had so many great jobs, but the one that is worth highlighting is what happened to me at Spinnaker Software in 1983, a job I got at the last minute because I needed to move to Boston for the summer.
我做过很多很棒的工作，但值得强调的是 1983 年我在 Spinnaker Software 发生的事情，我在最后一刻得到了这份工作，因为我需要搬到波士顿过暑假。
The chairman forgot to tell the company he had hired me as a summer intern.
董事长忘了告诉公司他聘用了我作为暑期实习生。
I walked in the first day, and David Seuss, the CEO, came out of his office to my cubicle, welcomed me, shook my hand, went back into his office, shut the door, called the chairman, and said, “Who the hell is that?”
第一天我走进去，首席执行官戴维·苏斯 (David Seuss) 从他的办公室来到我的小隔间，欢迎我，与我握手，然后回到他的办公室，关上门，打电话给董事长，说：“那到底是谁？”
It could all have gone downhill from there, but David just opened doors, and he said, “You’re going to make mistakes, and we trust that none of those mistakes are going to be so bad that they’re a problem.
一切可能从此开始走下坡路，但大卫打开了大门，他说：“你会犯错误，我们相信这些错误都不会严重到成为问题。
Go make a ruckus.”
去闹吧。”
I got another job that same day at Parker Brothers.
同一天，我在帕克兄弟公司找到了另一份工作。
I should have taken the Parker Brothers job.
我应该接受帕克兄弟的工作。
Every statistical inference said, “Go to work for Parker Brothers.” A week into the summer, Parker Brothers laid off the entire department.
每一个统计推论都说：“去为帕克兄弟工作吧。”进入夏季一周后，帕克兄弟解雇了整个部门。
I would’ve lost my job after five days.
五天后我就会失业。
Why didn’t you take it?
你为什么不拿它？
Because there were only 30 people at Spinnaker.
因为 Spinnaker 只有 30 个人。
Even though I grew up with Parker Brothers, Spinnaker felt like the future, and Parker Brothers felt like the past.
尽管我是和帕克兄弟一起长大的，但三角帆感觉像是未来，而帕克兄弟感觉像是过去。
I figured I could have a chance to do something different there, but I couldn’t have defended it if you’d asked me.
我想我可以有机会在那里做一些不同的事情，但如果你问我，我无法辩解。
It was one of the great lucky breaks of my life.
这是我一生中最幸运的时刻之一。
If someone read your current book, The Song of Significance, they would be more or less likely to make the same choice that you did?
如果有人读了你现在的书《意义之歌》，他们或多或少可能会做出与你相同的选择？
I think that it would be way more likely because I asked all the wrong questions when I was looking for that job.
我认为这种可能性更大，因为我在寻找那份工作时问了所有错误的问题。
I thought about all the wrong things when I did my analysis, but ignored them.
当我进行分析时，我想到了所有错误的事情，但忽略了它们。
Back when I was building one of the first internet companies, we struggled to hire people.
当我创建第一家互联网公司时，我们很难招到员工。
I was sitting in the office of the guy who was running disney.com at the time, and he had a stack of paper on his desk two inches thick.
我当时坐在迪士尼网站负责人的办公室里，他的桌子上放着一叠两英寸厚的纸。
I said, “What’s that?” He said, “Those are the résumés that came in last week.”
我说：“那是什么？”他说：“这些是上周收到的简历。”
Why were all these people applying to work at disney.com and not for my company, which was doing pioneering work?
为什么所有这些人都申请在 disney.com 工作，而不是为我的公司申请工作，因为我的公司正在做开创性的工作？
The answer is, because you could tell your friends you worked at Disney.
答案是，因为你可以告诉你的朋友你在迪士尼工作过。
I could have told my friends I worked at Parker Brothers the year I was in between at Stanford, but instead I said, “I want to tell my friends I worked at a company they never heard of.” Maybe we should do that more, because if the conditions in that job enable you to grow and are treating you with dignity and respect, then that’s where you should work.
我本来可以告诉我的朋友我在斯坦福大学期间在帕克兄弟工作过，但我却说：“我想告诉我的朋友我在一家他们从未听说过的公司工作过。”也许我们应该做得更多，因为如果这份工作的条件能让你成长，并给予你尊严和尊重，那么那就是你应该工作的地方。
So, being too long on status is one of those bibs you were talking about.
所以，对地位的关注太久就是你所说的那些围嘴之一。
I agree, yes.
我同意，是的。
Very last question, Seth: what is it you will do next?
最后一个问题，赛斯：接下来你会做什么？
I ask that myself every day.
我每天都这样问自己。
I have created a life where I have to ask myself that question every day.
我创造了一种每天都必须问自己这个问题的生活。
The day I get tired of it, I should commit to something that lasts more than a few years.
当我厌倦的那一天，我应该致力于一些可以持续几年的事情。
The magic of a book is, it’s a big chunk of your life, and then it’s not.
一本书的魔力在于，它是你生活的很大一部分，但后来就不是了。
There’s a new space right in front of me, and I don’t know.
一个新的空间就在我面前，但我不知道。
It doesn’t have to be a book.
它不一定是一本书。
Just proximately, what is literally the next thing you will do?
就大致而言，您接下来要做的事情是什么？
Oh, the next thing that I will do is give a talk at Harvard on the book, but the next thing that I will do that isn’t related to the book is, I am diving deep into how communities and software connect.
哦，我要做的下一件事是在哈佛大学就这本书进行演讲，但我接下来要做的与这本书无关的事情是，我将深入研究社区和软件如何连接。
I’ve got to get smarter about a whole new generation of software that I’m a little out of sync with.
我必须对我有点不同步的全新一代软件变得更聪明。
Seth Godin, thank you very much.
塞斯·戈丁，非常感谢你。
What a pleasure.
多么高兴啊。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。
This is one for the record books.
这是一本载入史册的书。
Appreciate your time.
珍惜您的时间。
Photo credit: Darius Bashar and Archangel
照片来源：大流士巴沙尔和大天使