Seamus Murphy on Photographing Patterns Across Cultures (Ep. 253)
Hello everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today, I am talking with Seamus Murphy, who is an Irish photographer and filmmaker.
今天，我正在与爱尔兰摄影师和电影制片人谢莫斯·墨菲交谈。
He has numerous books, including photography of Afghanistan, Russia, America, and Ireland.
他拥有大量书籍，包括阿富汗、俄罗斯、美国和爱尔兰的摄影作品。
He has a book of poetry from Afghanistan.
他有一本阿富汗诗集。
He has worked with PJ Harvey, the British popular music star, on two albums, including on Let England Shake.
他曾与英国流行音乐明星 PJ Harvey 合作制作了两张专辑，其中包括《Let England Shake》。
He does film as well.
他也拍电影。
He’s a hard person to summarize because there is, in fact, no one else like him.
他是一个很难概括的人，因为事实上没有人像他一样。
He grew up in the Dublin area.
他在都柏林地区长大。
Seamus, welcome.
西莫，欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Lovely to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Just to start with Afghanistan, where you’ve spent a lot of time recently, correct?
首先从阿富汗开始，您最近在那里呆了很多时间，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
Is there an optimistic case for that country right now?
该国现在有乐观的情况吗？
If so, what does it look like?
如果是这样，它是什么样子的？
I think the optimism that I would have for that country would be the people.
我认为我对这个国家的乐观态度是人民。
I’ve got a lot of faith in the people.
我对人民充满信心。
We have this impression of Afghanistan as being very conservative, very extreme.
我们对阿富汗的印象是非常保守、非常极端。
It’s not at all.
根本不是。
They’re very easygoing people.
他们是非常随和的人。
They’ve been in the middle of a lot of trouble, usually caused by people on the outside.
他们遇到了很多麻烦，这些麻烦通常是由外界的人造成的。
They’re a small country.
他们是一个小国家。
They’re strategically between many powers.
他们在战略上处于许多大国之间。
They’ve had a lot of problems in their time.
他们在他们的时代遇到了很多问题。
I think the optimism I would be looking towards would be the diaspora, I suppose, the people that have left, the people that might be able to do something from outside.
我认为我所期待的乐观情绪将是散居国外的人，我想，那些已经离开的人，那些可能能够从外部做点什么的人。
They’re certainly keeping people alive by sending money back.
他们确实通过寄回钱来让人们活下去。
I would say also people’s love, their love of their country is something special.
我想说的是，人们的爱，他们对国家的爱是很特别的。
It’s not a silly patriotism.
这不是愚蠢的爱国主义。
It’s really, really deep in their veins.
这真的非常非常深入他们的血管。
It’s one thing to have problems in your country and all the rest of it, but to actually have to leave your country — that’s tough for anyone.
在你的国家和其他地方遇到问题是一回事，但实际上不得不离开你的国家——这对任何人来说都是艰难的。
I think for Afghans, it’s particularly tough because they have such a love for their country.
我认为对于阿富汗人来说，这尤其艰难，因为他们非常热爱自己的国家。
I would say the diaspora is probably the .
我想说侨民可能是。
.
。
.
。
Because people in Afghanistan can’t do much.
因为阿富汗人民无能为力。
They have to go along with whatever the authorities are saying.
无论当局说什么，他们都必须同意。
They’re pretty impotent.
他们非常无能。
Is there enough ethnic unity there to build a nation state?
那里有足够的民族团结来建立一个民族国家吗？
Or you think the path of progress looks quite different altogether?
或者您认为进步之路看起来完全不同？
I think they do get on with each other.
我认为他们确实相处得很好。
There are tribal differences.
存在部落差异。
Like anywhere, I think people want to get on with each other.
就像在任何地方一样，我认为人们希望彼此和睦相处。
I think it’ll be some upstart politician, someone who sees a way to make a profit for themselves or make a name for themselves — they’ll stir up trouble.
我认为这将是某个暴发户的政客，某个想方设法为自己谋利或为自己扬名的人——他们会挑起麻烦。
Vested interest in other countries will promote one leader over another.
其他国家的既得利益将推动一位领导人超越另一位领导人。
That’s where the problem lies.
这就是问题所在。
I don’t think it’s the Afghans themselves.
我不认为是阿富汗人自己。
They’re like you and me.
他们就像你和我一样。
They’re actually better at times than you and me.
他们有时实际上比你和我更好。
They really are harmonious people.
他们真是和谐的人。
Very poetic.
很有诗意。
Very able to have a laugh.
非常能开怀大笑。
I’ve seen people make jokes in the worst of circumstances.
我见过人们在最糟糕的情况下开玩笑。
I think the thing about Afghanistan is, if they were left to their own devices, they would be fine.
我认为阿富汗的问题是，如果让他们自行其是，他们会没事的。
But unfortunately, they never have that luxury.
但不幸的是，他们从来没有这样的奢侈。
In the 1960s and part of the ’70s, it seemed Afghanistan was ready to grow, become a mature nation.
在 20 世纪 60 年代和 70 年代中期，阿富汗似乎已经准备好成长，成为一个成熟的国家。
What went wrong after that point, in your take?
您认为在那之后出了什么问题？
I don’t know — ’79 was the Islamic Revolution; ’79 was the invasion by the Soviets.
我不知道——79年是伊斯兰革命； 79年是苏联入侵。
There were things stirring in the region.
该地区发生了一些事情。
I suppose, extremists were maybe heeding the call from Saudi Arabia.
我想，极端分子可能是响应了沙特阿拉伯的号召。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’m not a historian.
我不是历史学家。
It seems too coincidental that these two things happened very close to each other.
这两件事发生的时间非常接近，这似乎太巧合了。
There were things going on.
有事情发生。
You’re right.
你说得对。
You look at photographs of the ’50s, the ’60s — people dressed like people in the West.
你看 50 年代、60 年代的照片——人们穿着像西方人。
You look at pictures now, and it’s like going back 100 years, 200 years.
你现在看照片，就像回到了100、200年前。
But it’s happened around the world, hasn’t it?
但这在世界各地都发生过，不是吗？
Religious extremism is not peculiar to Afghanistan.
宗教极端主义并非阿富汗独有。
I think Afghanistan’s had a very bad taste of it because they are in a strategic position where they can be exploited.
我认为阿富汗对此的感受非常糟糕，因为他们处于可以被利用的战略地位。
How urbanized is Afghanistan now?
阿富汗现在的城市化程度如何？
Kabul’s a pretty big city?
喀布尔是一个相当大的城市吗？
Kabul’s a very big city.
喀布尔是一个很大的城市。
I think when the Soviets invaded, it was something like 400,000 or 500,000 people.
我想当苏联入侵时，大约有 40 万或 50 万人口。
We’re now looking at 4.5 million, something like that.
我们现在看到的是 450 万，大约是这个数字。
The infrastructure doesn’t keep up with it.
基础设施跟不上。
When NATO was in for 20 years, there was road building.
北约成立20年时，就开始修建道路。
There were projects that should have modernized the country.
有些项目本应使国家现代化。
But there’s also a lot of corruption.
但腐败现象也不少。
Corruption set in fairly early on.
腐败很早就开始了。
You could say that was the Afghans’ fault, but I think, actually, the people that were giving the money, the West, should have been more vigilant.
你可以说这是阿富汗人的错，但我认为，实际上，那些提供资金的人，即西方，应该更加警惕。
I think they knew what was going on.
我想他们知道发生了什么事。
If they really wanted to solve the problem of corruption, they could have done more.
如果他们真的想解决腐败问题，他们本可以做得更多。
They must have known in 2010, 2015, how things were going.
他们一定在2010年、2015年就知道事情的进展。
Everyone knew there was corruption everywhere, and they continued to spend the money.
每个人都知道到处都有腐败，但他们还是继续花钱。
Then when the time came, they said, “Well, we’ve spent all this money.
然后，当时间到来时，他们说：“好吧，我们已经花光了所有这些钱。
Nothing to show for it.
没有什么可以证明的。
We’re getting out.” But they’re the ones who spent the money, so surely, there’s some responsibility there.
我们要出去了。”但他们是花了钱的人，所以肯定有一些责任。
How enduring do you think Taliban rule will be?
您认为塔利班的统治会持续多久？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I can’t see anybody other than the Afghans going in and doing something, unless we had another 9/11.
除了阿富汗人之外，我看不到任何人介入并做点什么，除非我们再发生一次 9/11。
The only reason, in a way, the Taliban were kicked out in 2001 was because of 9/11.
从某种程度上来说，塔利班在 2001 年被赶出的唯一原因是 9/11。
No one was caring, no one was looking at Afghanistan.
没有人关心，没有人关注阿富汗。
They were very interested when the Soviets moved in, the Cold War continued in Afghanistan.
当苏联人搬进来时，他们非常感兴趣，阿富汗的冷战仍在继续。
There were vested interests.
有既得利益。
The Americans poured billions of dollars of arms into the country, and by indirect means, created the Taliban.
美国人向该国投入了数十亿美元的武器，并通过间接手段创建了塔利班。
Now, the idea of a Western force going in there and trying to sort something out — I can’t see it happening politically, no.
现在，西方军队进入那里并试图解决问题的想法——我不认为这会在政治上发生，不。
Do you think the more optimistic scenario is the Taliban reforms from within or the Taliban is somehow overthrown?
您认为更乐观的情况是塔利班从内部进行改革还是塔利班以某种方式被推翻？
I think reform from within.
我认为改革是从内部开始的。
I was there last in December, and what I found was, there’s definitely the younger Taliban — and probably most of the Taliban — do not want the draconian rules that are being brought in, banning children, girls going to school.
去年 12 月我去过那里，我发现，肯定有年轻的塔利班成员——可能还有大多数塔利班成员——不希望实行严酷的规定，禁止儿童、女孩上学。
They want their sisters and their daughters to go to school.
他们希望他们的姐妹和女儿能够上学。
It’s widespread, and it’s not just in the cities.
它很普遍，而且不仅仅存在于城市。
I came across this in the country as well.
我在国内也遇到过这种情况。
I think it’s the leadership in Kandahar and one or two people, really.
我认为这实际上是坎大哈的领导层和一两个人。
I think that’s maybe not going to last forever.
我认为这可能不会永远持续下去。
Hopefully, there will be some internal recalibration, and the Taliban open themselves up to more outside influence and things normalize.
希望塔利班能够进行一些内部调整，接受更多的外部影响，事情会恢复正常。
That would be a good scenario.
那将是一个很好的场景。
I was thinking that when I was there, that actually is…
我在想，当我在那里的时候，那实际上是……
it’s a very strong possibility.
这是一个非常大的可能性。
Eventually, that’ll happen, because I think also the country needs it.
最终，这将会发生，因为我认为国家也需要它。
The country needs it economically.
国家经济上需要它。
Do you have a sense of what the current birth rate is in Afghanistan?
您了解阿富汗目前的出生率是多少吗？
No.
不。
Families are still having at least two children, so the population’s growing?
家庭仍然至少有两个孩子，所以人口在增长？
Life goes on.
生活仍在继续。
Any place like Afghanistan where I’ve been, you arrive having read reports, and you get there, and you think, “Oh my God, life must be so affected by this.” Of course, it is, but life goes on.
我去过任何像阿富汗这样的地方，你到达那里时都会阅读报道，当你到达那里时，你会想：“天哪，生活一定受到了如此大的影响。”当然是这样，但生活还要继续。
It’s quite extraordinary that they’re not going to stop having children.
他们不会停止生孩子，这是非常不寻常的。
They love their —
他们爱他们的 ——
But in a lot of countries, the fertility rate has plummeted just because women have decided they don’t want two or three kids.
但在许多国家，生育率大幅下降只是因为女性决定不想要两三个孩子。
Even in Iran, it’s quite low.
即使在伊朗，这个比例也相当低。
This has not yet come to Afghanistan.
这还没有来到阿富汗。
I don’t know if that rationale is promoted in Afghanistan by the Taliban.
我不知道塔利班在阿富汗是否宣扬这个理由。
How safe is it to go there now?
现在去那里安全吗？
When you go, how safe do you feel?
当你去的时候，你感觉有多安全？
In some ways safer than ever before, but I’m a man, and I’m a Westerner, and I don’t have any particular history of shouting about the Taliban or fighting the Taliban, so for me, it’s easy enough.
在某些方面比以往任何时候都更安全，但我是一个男人，我是一个西方人，我没有任何大声疾呼塔利班或与塔利班作战的特殊历史，所以对我来说，这很容易。
Law and order is very strong.
法律和秩序非常强大。
If people rob things, they might get their hands chopped off.
如果人们抢劫东西，他们的手可能会被砍掉。
That has an effect.
这有效果。
As an outsider, as a Westerner, it’s safe in as much as a place like that can be safe.
作为一个外来者，作为一个西方人，在这样的地方尽可能安全。
There’s always the possibility of kidnapping, and there are other more extreme elements than the Taliban.
绑架的可能性总是存在的，而且还有比塔利班更极端的分子。
Afghan ISIS and those people would be very dangerous.
阿富汗伊斯兰国和那些人将非常危险。
But to go to Kabul, it’s very safe, I think.
但我认为去喀布尔是非常安全的。
Would I be less safe as an American?
作为美国人我会更不安全吗？
You have an Irish passport, right?
你有爱尔兰护照，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
No, I don’t think so.
不，我不这么认为。
Like in Iran, on the one hand they’re saying death to America, but the other side of the mouth, they’re saying, “My brother lives in Michigan.” America is saint and sinner for everyone.
就像在伊朗一样，他们一方面对美国说“去死”，但另一方面，他们又说：“我的兄弟住在密歇根州。”美国对每个人来说都是圣人，也是罪人。
What’s the biggest practical hardship with being there?
在那里最大的实际困难是什么？
For an outsider?
对于一个外人来说？
Boiling the water might be difficult, or the electricity goes out, or there’s a risk of dengue.
烧水可能很困难，或者停电，或者存在登革热的风险。
What’s the actual biggest problem, maybe other than being kidnapped?
除了被绑架之外，真正最大的问题是什么？
My biggest fear always is a car crash because I think they reckon that more foreign correspondents get killed in car crashes than in any conflict zone.
我最担心的总是车祸，因为我认为他们认为在车祸中丧生的外国记者比在任何冲突地区都多。
I’m always terrified.
我总是很害怕。
Also, if you’re hiring a driver, they’re always trying to prove that they’re faster and they’ll get you somewhere in a hurry.
此外，如果您雇用司机，他们总是试图证明自己更快，并且会尽快将您送到某个地方。
I always tell them, “Please, please, just calm down.” That would be my biggest fear, and it’s always my biggest fear, whether it’s India or Afghanistan or any other place.
我总是告诉他们，“求你了，求你了，冷静点。”这将是我最大的恐惧，而且永远是我最大的恐惧，无论是在印度、阿富汗还是任何其他地方。
Is there enough congestion in the capital that you’re not going to die on the road there, or it’s still an issue?
首都的拥堵程度是否足以让你不会死在路上，或者这仍然是一个问题？
Yes.
是的。
I love traffic jams.
我喜欢交通堵塞。
I love when we’ve come from the Shomali Plain in the north, racing down the highway, three at a time overtaking, and then eventually you get to these outskirts of Kabul, Khair Khana, and I breathe a sigh of relief as we slow down, and it takes an hour to get the rest of the way, which is not very far.
我喜欢我们从北部的索马利平原过来，沿着高速公路飞驰，一次超车三个人，然后最终到达喀布尔郊区的凯尔卡纳，当我们放慢速度时，我松了一口气，剩下的路程需要一个小时，距离并不远。
It’s terrifying.
太可怕了。
It’s very, very slow.
这非常非常慢。
Very slow.
非常慢。
Now, I found when I try to photograph rural Mexicans, they put on their most serious face, the entire body stiffens, and it looks quite unnatural.
现在，我发现当我尝试拍摄墨西哥农村人时，他们摆出最严肃的表情，整个身体僵硬，看起来很不自然。
But to them, that’s what a photograph is, and I’m fine with that.
但对他们来说，这就是照片，我对此很满意。
How is it in Afghanistan?
阿富汗怎么样？
Afghanistan is particularly difficult because they have some built-in radar when they know there’s somebody with a camera.
阿富汗尤其困难，因为当他们知道有人带着相机时，他们有一些内置雷达。
They just know it.
他们只是知道而已。
As soon as they detect it, they start shouting at everyone, “There’s a guy with a camera, there’s a guy with a camera.” So, it’s very difficult to turn up somewhere and do something candid, or even just to relax the atmosphere.
他们一发现，就开始对所有人大喊：“有一个拿着相机的人，有一个拿着相机的人。”所以，很难出现在某个地方，做一些坦诚的事情，甚至只是为了放松一下气氛。
It’s a carnival thing.
这是狂欢节的事情。
I think you have to work around that.
我认为你必须解决这个问题。
They love having their photograph taken.
他们喜欢拍照。
You play with that, and you try and catch them as naturally as possible.
你用它来玩，并尝试尽可能自然地抓住它们。
A lot of the time, you think pictures are candid, and actually, you’ve been talking to the person, and there’s a moment, and you get it.
很多时候，你认为照片是坦率的，实际上，你一直在和那个人交谈，有那么一刻，你就明白了。
That’s good.
那挺好的。
The biggest difficulty in Afghanistan is that people love to be photographed.
在阿富汗最大的困难是人们喜欢被拍照。
That can be a little bit tedious.
这可能有点乏味。
No religious strictures that are a problem?
没有宗教限制是问题吗？
Not anymore.
不再。
No. That was back in ’97.
不，那是 97 年的事了。
I was there in ’96 when the Taliban took over the first time.
96 年塔利班第一次掌权时我就在那里。
That was when they were stringing up television sets and undoing videotape.
那时他们正在把电视机串起来，解开录像带。
They say that it’s idolatry to, in any way lionize the human face.
他们说，以任何方式崇拜人脸都是偶像崇拜。
That’s why, when you go to a mosque, you never see any faces.
这就是为什么当你去清真寺时，你永远看不到任何面孔。
You do come across it sometimes.
有时你确实会遇到它。
Somebody will give you some chapter and verse that in the Quran, it says this about photography.
有人会给你一些《古兰经》中关于摄影的章节和经文。
You’re, “When was the Quran written?
你是：“古兰经是什么时候写成的？
And when was photography invented?”
摄影是什么时候发明的？”
If you think about the outside world, do you have a sense of how photography has shaped how people perceive Afghanistan now?
如果你想想外面的世界，你是否知道摄影如何塑造了人们现在对阿富汗的看法？
Some iconic image?
一些标志性的图像？
What’s the effect, and how realistic is it?
效果如何，真实性如何？
I think, like anything really, whether it’s news or whether it’s photography, you do things that, in some ways, will capture people’s attention.
我认为，就像任何事情一样，无论是新闻还是摄影，你所做的事情在某种程度上会吸引人们的注意力。
You’re trying to communicate something.
你正试图传达一些东西。
Rather than having 10 pictures of something boring, the 11th picture — someone doing something interesting — will be the one that you like, that you strive for.
与其拥有 10 张无聊的照片，第 11 张照片——“某人在做一些有趣的事情”——将是你喜欢的、你努力追求的。
The most dramatic, the most intense will be the images that make it onto the news or in the newspapers.
最引人注目、最强烈的将是出现在新闻或报纸上的图像。
That’s just fact.
这只是事实。
If you’re interested in the subject, and you start looking at the diversity of books out there and the collections of photographs from Afghanistan, there’s a lot there of human life, daily life.
如果你对这个主题感兴趣，并且开始查看各种各样的书籍和来自阿富汗的照片集，就会发现那里有很多关于人类生活和日常生活的内容。
It’s not all doom and gloom.
这并不全是厄运和阴郁。
I think it’s also understanding the news business, that it is this thing of headlines, and it is news, so people want to see something new, something novel.
我认为这也是对新闻行业的理解，它是头条新闻，它是新闻，所以人们想要看到一些新的、新颖的东西。
There’s a superficiality to that, for sure.
当然，这很肤浅。
The famous photo of the young woman with green eyes — that’s from Afghanistan, right?
那张著名的绿眼睛年轻女子的照片 ——那是来自阿富汗，对吗？
Actually, it’s from Pakistan.
事实上，它来自巴基斯坦。
It’s from the border.
是从边境来的。
I think that family had fled the Soviet invasion, and they were in the border.
我认为那家人逃离了苏联入侵，现在在边境。
I think it was in the tribal areas, probably Peshawar.
我认为是在部落地区，可能是白沙瓦。
Is that misleading in some way?
这在某种程度上具有误导性吗？
Misleading?
误导？
No, I don’t think so.
不，我不这么认为。
In the picture, she’s looking pretty terrified.
照片中，她看起来非常害怕。
The thing, of course, you’ve got to remember about photography — that photograph was probably taken in a fraction of a second.
当然，关于摄影，你必须记住这一点——这张照片可能是在不到一秒的时间内拍摄的。
Two minutes before that, she might have been smiling, and two minutes later, she might have been crying.
两分钟前，她可能在微笑，两分钟后，她可能在哭。
It’s a process.
这是一个过程。
The person takes the photograph, the photograph gets disseminated.
这个人拍了照片，照片就被传播了。
It was used, I think on the cover of National Geographic.
我想它曾被用在《国家地理》的封面上。
They had a much wider story on what was going on in Afghanistan.
他们对阿富汗正在发生的事情有更广泛的报道。
If you read the story, you’d be filled in on what was going on.
如果你读了这个故事，你就会了解正在发生的事情。
It was a very striking moment of the kind of fear, I think, that you could imagine a girl like that having.
我想，这是一个非常令人震惊的时刻，你可以想象一个像这样的女孩所拥有的那种恐惧。
Whether she was afraid at the time, I don’t know.
我不知道她当时是否害怕。
Maybe she was frightened of the camera.
也许她害怕相机。
Maybe she was frightened of this white guy taking a photograph.
也许她害怕这个白人拍照。
I just don’t know.
我只是不知道。
I think it also captured the beauty of that girl.
我认为它也捕捉到了那个女孩的美丽。
That’s another thing about Afghanistan, people are absolutely beautiful.
这是阿富汗的另一件事，人们非常美丽。
They’re very striking, and I think that’s important to see that side of it.
它们非常引人注目，我认为看到它的另一面很重要。
Now, in one of your books on Afghanistan called I Am the Beggar of This World, you mentioned that Pashtun women are not supposed to show love and romance, even when they’re getting married.
现在，在您关于阿富汗的一本名为《我是这个世界的乞丐》的书中，您提到普什图妇女不应该表现出爱情和浪漫，即使她们结婚了。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
I didn’t write that.
那不是我写的。
That would’ve been Eliza Griswold, a friend and journalist.
那个人就是伊丽莎·格里斯沃尔德（Eliza Griswold），她是我的朋友兼记者。
We did this project together.
我们一起做了这个项目。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
I suppose modesty.
我认为是谦虚。
I really couldn’t tell you actually why, tradition for some reason.
我真的无法告诉你为什么，出于某种原因的传统。
I have the same issue with Iran.
我对伊朗也有同样的问题。
I’ve met many Iranians.
我见过很多伊朗人。
They’re quite impressive, very smart, highly successful, especially in America.
他们令人印象深刻，非常聪明，非常成功，尤其是在美国。
Yet the country itself is virtually always not on a good track.
然而，这个国家本身实际上始终没有走上好的轨道。
Clearly, there’s been some negative outside intervention in Iran, but at this point, I can’t really fully believe that’s the main problem.
显然，伊朗受到了一些负面的外部干预，但在这一点上，我不能完全相信这是主要问题。
There’s something about Iranian society — which I do not at all understand — that holds back a certain kind of progress.
伊朗社会有一些东西——“我根本不理解”——阻碍了某种进步。
Maybe there’s some attachment to a certain impersonality in public life that they don’t have, or disputes become too fraught, or the country is not sufficiently unified, even though the people are super nice.
也许他们对公共生活中的某种非人格化有某种依恋，而他们没有，或者争端变得太令人担忧，或者国家不够统一，尽管人民非常友善。
What is it you think that internally might be the equivalent in Afghanistan?
您认为在阿富汗内部可能相当于什么？
Because there’re plenty of Afghans in Northern Virginia.
因为弗吉尼亚州北部有很多阿富汗人。
They’re super nice, they’re attractive, they’ve done very well.
他们非常友善，很有魅力，而且做得很好。
At the same time, it is hard for me to believe that Afghanistan’s problems are mainly about foreign intervention.
与此同时，我很难相信阿富汗的问题主要是由外国干预造成的。
I think in the case of Afghanistan, they’re traumatized.
我认为就阿富汗而言，他们受到了创伤。
I think there is definitely a trauma.
我想肯定是有外伤。
They’ve been at war for over 40 years.
他们的战争已经持续了 40 多年。
Even if you do meet people in Arlington or in DC, or wherever they’re carrying that with them.
即使你确实在阿灵顿或华盛顿遇到了人，或者他们随身携带的任何地方。
They’re dealing with family that are still there.
他们正在与仍然在那里的家人打交道。
This is going to have an effect on you.
这会对你产生影响。
This is not an easy thing to deal with.
这不是一件容易处理的事情。
Maybe that has something to do with it.
也许这与它有关。
In Iran, I suppose, is it the Iranians or is it the theocracy?
我想，在伊朗，是伊朗人还是神权政治？
I don’t know what’s holding it back.
我不知道是什么阻碍了它。
They’re not that separate ultimately.
他们最终并没有那么分开。
Iran is a difficult country to rule; it always has been.
伊朗是一个难以统治的国家；一直如此。
There’re so many different groups there, the Azerbaijanis.
那里有很多不同的群体，阿塞拜疆人。
Maybe they’re afraid if they liberalize, it will collapse into some kind of chaos, or they don’t want to be the next Lebanon or the next Syria.
也许他们担心如果实行自由化，就会陷入某种混乱，或者他们不想成为下一个黎巴嫩或下一个叙利亚。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Do they have much choice?
他们有很多选择吗？
I don’t know how much choice they have in the theocracy.
我不知道他们在神权政治中有多少选择。
It has a fair amount of support.
它有相当多的支持。
It may not be majority support, but it has more support in Iran than it would find in most countries of the world.
它可能不是大多数人的支持，但它在伊朗获得的支持比世界上大多数国家都多。
There’re a lot of traditional people there.
那里有很多传统的人。
Again, you’ve got the trauma of the Iran-Iraq war, where a lot of people were killed, and they’re dealing with loved ones who were killed in the war and betray that, betray them.
再说一次，你有两伊战争的创伤，很多人被杀，他们正在与在战争中丧生的亲人打交道，背叛了他们，背叛了他们。
That keeps people loyal.
这让人们保持忠诚。
I think it’s the same in the West.
我想在西方也是一样的。
In America, people will be loyal to whatever president you have because they’ve lost people in wars, the veterans.
在美国，人们都会效忠于任何一位总统，因为他们在战争中失去了一些人，即退伍军人。
It’s very hard to break away from that.
很难摆脱这一点。
You have to tear up your history and say, “No, no, this is wrong.” I think it’s loyalty in some ways.
你必须撕毁你的历史并说：“不，不，这是错误的。”我认为这在某种程度上是忠诚。
What’s the food like in Afghanistan?
阿富汗的食物怎么样？
Is it good?
好不好？
Is it like food in Afghan restaurants in the West?
和西方阿富汗餐馆里的食物一样吗？
Can I just pop in and ask for kadu and it comes?
我可以直接进去要卡杜吗，它就会来吗？
Yes, it can be.
是的，可以。
In fact, you can go to the most remote little village and, of course, they’re always going to have fantastic bread.
事实上，你可以去最偏远的小村庄，当然，他们总是能吃到美味的面包。
The food is very much a part of the social thing.
食物在很大程度上是社交活动的一部分。
The green tea and the bread.
绿茶和面包。
Then, depending on the season, they’re going to have wonderful fruits.
然后，根据季节的不同，他们会结出美味的水果。
Food is good.
食物很好。
Very meat-based.
非常以肉为主。
Vegans would have a hard time, I think.
我认为素食主义者会很难过。
There’s a poem in your book.
你的书里有一首诗。
Of course, you didn’t write it, but I’d like to know how you understand it.
当然，这不是你写的，但我想知道你是怎么理解的。
I think it goes, “I lost you on Facebook yesterday.
我想应该是这样的：“昨天我在 Facebook 上失去了你。
I’ll find you on Google today.” What does that mean to you as someone who’s been there a lot?
我今天会在谷歌上找到你。”作为一个经常去那里的人，这对你来说意味着什么？
I just think the times have moved on, and it’s no longer just women at weddings writing this poetry.
我只是认为时代已经进步，不再只有婚礼上的女性才能写下这首诗。
It’s a reflection of the modern world.
这是现代世界的反映。
On Ireland’s changes
关于爱尔兰的变化
Why did Russia remind you so much of pre-Celtic Tiger Ireland?
为什么俄罗斯让你如此想起前凯尔特虎爱尔兰？
Friendliness, warmth, a bit of a daily struggle, sharing things, being able to laugh at things.
友善、温暖、每天的一点挣扎、分享事物、能够嘲笑事物。
And that’s changed in Ireland today, you think?
你认为今天爱尔兰的情况发生了变化吗？
I’ve just come from Ireland, and it’s all still there.
我刚从爱尔兰回来，一切都还在那里。
In fact, I think that what happened was when the Celtic Tiger happened, and then there was that terrible crash, it is reckoned that the Irish learned a lesson.
其实我觉得当时发生的事情就是凯尔特虎发生的时候，然后就发生了那场可怕的撞车事故，估计爱尔兰人吸取了教训。
I hope they have because it did seem like things were .
我希望他们做到了，因为事情看起来确实如此。
.
。
.
。
As the Irish say, they lost the run of themselves.
正如爱尔兰人所说，他们失去了自我。
It was all about stages, and it was all about accumulating properties and all the rest of it, and going into huge debt.
这都是关于阶段的，这都是关于积累财产和所有其他的，以及负债累累的。
I think people have learned that lesson.
我认为人们已经吸取了教训。
I’ve just come from there, and there’s a wonderful atmosphere.
我刚从那里回来，那里的气氛很棒。
There’s a very small minority of people that are heading towards this far right anti-immigrant action.
只有极少数人正在采取这种极右翼反移民行动。
Very, very, very noisy on social media, so it sounds like it’s everywhere.
社交媒体上非常、非常、非常吵闹，所以听起来它无处不在。
It’s not, actually.
事实上，事实并非如此。
I discovered it wasn’t.
我发现事实并非如此。
I think they’ve learned the lesson from the Celtic Tiger.
我认为他们已经从凯尔特老虎身上吸取了教训。
I think it was a pretty shallow place back then.
我认为当时那是一个很浅的地方。
These are generalizations obviously.
这些显然是概括。
Not everyone was prone to that.
并不是每个人都容易出现这种情况。
If I were to make to you the counterintuitive claim that Northern Ireland feels like the real Ireland to me, does that make any sense to you whatsoever?
如果我要向你提出违反直觉的说法，即北爱尔兰对我来说就像是真正的爱尔兰，这对你来说有任何意义吗？
To me, it’s the Ireland that is still pre-modern in many of its parts, and the Republic is not, other than maybe the west coast or parts of the deep south?
对我来说，爱尔兰的许多部分仍然是前现代的，而共和国则不是，除了西海岸或南部腹地的部分地区？
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
I don’t think that’s true.
我认为那不是真的。
It’s doing less well economically, that’s for sure.
它的经济表现不太好，这是肯定的。
Southern Ireland is booming.
南爱尔兰正在蓬勃发展。
Southern Ireland was never industrialized, so in a way, we’re catching up.
南爱尔兰从未实现工业化，所以在某种程度上，我们正在迎头赶上。
We were never industrialized; the North was.
我们从未实现过工业化；北方是。
We suffered terrible recessions and unemployment in the ’80s.
我们在八十年代经历了可怕的经济衰退和失业。
I left Ireland in the ’80s, during that time.
我在 80 年代离开了爱尔兰，那段时间。
It was a terrible time.
那是一段可怕的时光。
What do we do?
我们该怎么办？
We educated ourselves.
我们自我教育。
We became possibly among the most educated populations on Earth.
我们可能成为地球上受教育程度最高的人群之一。
You’re the most, I believe.
我相信，你是最多的。
Number one.
第一。
Yes, could be.
是的，可能是。
The North hasn’t done that, I think.
我认为北方还没有这样做。
Of course, people were going to college, but it was a default, almost, for people in Ireland to go to college.
当然，人们会去上大学，但对于爱尔兰人来说，上大学几乎是默认的。
There wasn’t anything else to do.
没有其他事可做。
Why not do this?
为什么不这样做呢？
I think also there were good decisions made by the government to offer education and promote it, and that’s why I think the South is booming.
我认为政府在提供教育和促进教育方面也做出了很好的决定，这就是我认为南方正在蓬勃发展的原因。
Now, you’re old enough to have lived through the collapse of Catholic Church influence in Ireland.
现在，你已经足够大了，可以经历天主教会在爱尔兰影响力的崩溃。
Did that shock you?
这让你震惊吗？
It seems historically virtually unprecedented, or was it somehow obvious that would be happening?
这在历史上几乎是史无前例的，还是说这种情况明显会发生？
Why was it so quick?
为什么这么快？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It was shocking.
太令人震惊了。
I wasn’t living there when it was happening.
事情发生时我并不住在那里。
I was following things somewhat.
我在某种程度上关注着事情。
I’ve said it in one of the books: It was like growing up in Taliban, Ireland when I grew up in the ’60s in Dublin.
我在一本书中说过：我在 60 年代在都柏林长大，就像在爱尔兰塔利班长大一样。
The church had such power, and they abused that power in many ways, some terrible.
教会拥有这样的权力，他们以多种方式滥用这种权力，有些甚至是可怕的。
When it all started falling, it’s like the truth comes out, and when the truth comes out, it can be like a house of cards.
当一切开始坠落时，就像真相大白了一样，而当真相大白时，它就像一座纸牌屋。
I suppose that’s why it might’ve been sudden.
我想这就是为什么它会突然发生。
If you were living there, and you were really observing this, it was probably being chipped away at.
如果你住在那里，并且你确实观察到了这一点，那么它可能正在被削弱。
They knew things.
他们知道事情。
People knew things, and it was permissible now to speak up about it and talk about it.
人们都知道事情，现在可以说出来并谈论它。
I think it’s the church that’s fallen.
我认为是教堂倒塌了。
I wouldn’t say religion has gone necessarily, but I think the church has really suffered.
我不会说宗教必然消失，但我认为教会确实遭受了损失。
Being a photographer and also a filmmaker, do you think you see Irish history differently from that vantage point?
作为一名摄影师和电影制片人，您认为您从这个角度看待爱尔兰历史是否有所不同？
If so, how?
如果是这样，怎么办？
You mean other people’s history?
你是说别人的历史吗？
History of Ireland, say since 1922?
爱尔兰的历史，比如自 1922 年以来？
No, I don’t think so.
不，我不这么认为。
I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
I think if you’re interested in the history, you’ll read around the subjects, and you’ll draw parallels.
我认为如果你对历史感兴趣，你会围绕这些主题进行阅读，并且你会得出相似之处。
I find, though, that things I’ve done in Ireland do inform me when I go somewhere else.
不过，我发现，当我去其他地方时，我在爱尔兰所做的事情确实给了我启发。
I look at the history, but that’s pretty true of anyone.
我回顾了历史，但这对任何人来说都是如此。
You look at what’s relatable.
你看看什么是相关的。
Something happens to you, or you learn something about your history, and then something’s happening in Iran.
你发生了一些事情，或者你了解了一些关于你的历史的事情，然后伊朗就发生了一些事情。
“Oh, that’s interesting.
“哦，这很有趣。
There’s a parallel there.” We compare things all the time, don’t we?
那里有一个相似之处。”我们一直在比较事物，不是吗？
When you left, why did you leave?
当你离开的时候，你为什么离开？
One reason was the recession.
原因之一是经济衰退。
I also left because at the time, it was a boring place for a 20-year-old.
我离开也是因为当时对于一个20岁的人来说这是一个无聊的地方。
It was a boring place.
那是一个无聊的地方。
If it was now, I wouldn’t be leaving.
如果是现在，我就不会离开。
I would’ve stayed.
我会留下来的。
It was a white Catholic poor country on the edge of Europe.
那是欧洲边缘的一个白人天主教贫穷国家。
Quite apart from that, I always wanted to travel.
除此之外，我一直想去旅行。
From an early age, I wanted to travel.
从很小的时候起，我就想要旅行。
So, a combination of all those things.
所以，所有这些事情的结合。
I was going to be moving, whatever happened.
不管发生什么，我都要搬家。
Even if things had been going well, I think I would’ve wanted to taste what else is out there.
即使事情进展顺利，我想我也会想尝尝外面的东西。
How was it that in the Ireland of that time, you became a photographer?
您是如何在当时的爱尔兰成为一名摄影师的？
I didn’t become a photographer in Ireland.
我没有在爱尔兰成为一名摄影师。
It wasn’t until I went to America, and I bought a camera, and I had time.
直到我去了美国，买了一台相机，才有时间。
Also, there was a dark room near where I was living, a public dark room, and I was able to use that.
另外，我住的地方附近有一个暗室，一个公共暗室，我可以使用它。
I learned how to develop my black and white film and print it.
我学会了如何冲洗黑白胶片并打印它。
That was a huge factor, to take a picture, and then be able to control it afterwards and see it.
这是一个重要的因素，拍照，然后能够控制它并看到它。
Suddenly there was a continuation, there was consistency, something that you thought about, something that you saw, something you wanted to capture, you could then see the result.
突然间，有一种延续，一种一致性，你想到的东西，你看到的东西，你想要捕捉的东西，然后你就可以看到结果。
You learn from your mistakes, and when you’re printing, you really see the mistakes.
你会从错误中吸取教训，当你打印时，你会真正看到错误。
It was really when I left Ireland that I learned photography.
我确实是在离开爱尔兰后才开始学习摄影的。
What had been your job in Ireland?
您在爱尔兰的工作是什么？
I was a student.
我是一名学生。
You never had a proper career before being a photographer?
您在成为摄影师之前从未有过正式的职业吗？
No.
不。
Then you went to where in the United States?
那你去了美国什么地方？
I went to New York, and I went to San Francisco.
我去了纽约，又去了旧金山。
What is it you wish Americans would understand about current Ireland that maybe they do not?
关于现在的爱尔兰，您希望美国人了解哪些他们可能不了解的事情？
What’s our biggest misconception?
我们最大的误解是什么？
Oh.
哦。
I don’t know, really.
我不知道，真的。
It’s too general a question because people coming to London — they’re going to have misconceptions.
这是一个太笼统的问题，因为来到伦敦的人们会产生误解。
I don’t know they get things that wrong.
我不知道他们弄错了。
I don’t think it’s necessarily a quiz.
我认为这不一定是测验。
They seem to love it.
他们似乎很喜欢它。
They can’t all be searching for their roots.
他们不可能都在寻找自己的根源。
I think people love it.
我认为人们喜欢它。
The atmosphere is great, and things are so easy now with transportation.
气氛很好，现在交通也很方便。
It’s very expensive though, I have to say.
但我不得不说，它非常昂贵。
It’s much more expensive than it was.
它比原来贵得多。
I think we regard the Irish as especially friendly.
我认为我们认为爱尔兰人特别友好。
I’m not sure that’s entirely wrong, to be clear, but we don’t come away necessarily from England saying the same thing.
需要明确的是，我不确定这完全是错误的，但我们不一定会从英格兰说同样的话。
The more depressive side of the Irish personality is less apparent to visiting Americans.
对于来访的美国人来说，爱尔兰人性格中较为抑郁的一面不太明显。
That would be my sense.
这就是我的感觉。
I think it’s also, anyone on holiday — they’re in a good mood.
我认为，任何度假的人都心情很好。
If you’re a tourist, you’re probably spending money, so people are going to be friendly to you.
如果你是游客，你可能会花钱，所以人们会对你友好。
It’s just common decency, but also good service.
这只是常见的礼貌，但也是良好的服务。
Irish people going to England, for example, will come back and say, “Oh my God, the English are so friendly.
例如，去英国的爱尔兰人回来后会说：“天哪，英国人太友好了。
They’re not like that.
他们不是那样的。
They’re much friendlier than we are.
他们比我们友好得多。
They’re much more polite.”
他们更有礼貌。”
I think it’s also what you know.
我想这也是你所知道的。
You walk into a shop in Ireland, and somebody will immediately maybe tell you a joke or something, which is unusual for you, but not unusual for us.
你走进爱尔兰的一家商店，有人可能会立即告诉你一个笑话或其他东西，这对你来说很不寻常，但对我们来说并不罕见。
Then, maybe that Irish person will go to England and go into a shop, and the person in the shop might be telling them some little bit of history or something, and because it’s different, “Oh my God, that’s so friendly.” When you’re on a holiday, you’re looking to have a good time.
然后，也许那个爱尔兰人会去英国，走进一家商店，店里的人可能会告诉他们一些历史之类的东西，因为它不同，“天哪，那太友好了。”当您度假时，您希望度过愉快的时光。
You’re in a good mood, so I think that has a huge effect.
你心情很好，所以我认为这有很大的影响。
On Kolkata
在加尔各答
Now you’re living in Kolkata mainly?
现在你主要住在加尔各答？
No. I’m living in London, some of the year in Kolkata.
不。我住在伦敦，一年中有时住在加尔各答。
Why Kolkata?
为什么选择加尔各答？
My wife is Indian.
我的妻子是印度人。
She grew up in Delhi, Bombay, and Kolkata, but Kolkata was her favorite.
她在德里、孟买和加尔各答长大，但加尔各答是她最喜欢的。
They were the years that were her most fond of years.
那是她最喜欢的岁月。
She’s got lots of friends from Kolkata.
她有很多来自加尔各答的朋友。
I love the city.
我爱这座城市。
She was saying that if I didn’t like the city, then we wouldn’t be spending as much time in Kolkata as we do, but I do love the city.
她说，如果我不喜欢这座城市，那么我们就不会像现在这样在加尔各答待那么多时间，但我确实喜欢这座城市。
It’s got, in many ways, everything I would look for in a city.
从很多方面来说，它拥有我在城市中寻找的一切。
Kabul, in a way, was a bit like Kolkata when times were better.
从某种程度上来说，喀布尔有点像经济繁荣时期的加尔各答。
This is maybe a replacement for Kabul for me.
对我来说，这可能是喀布尔的替代品。
Kolkata is extraordinary.
加尔各答是非凡的。
It’s got that history.
它有这样的历史。
It’s got the buildings.
它有建筑物。
Bengalis are fascinating.
孟加拉人很迷人。
It’s got culture, fantastic food.
这里有文化，有美味的食物。
The best sweets in India, right?
印度最好的糖果，对吧？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
It’s my daughter’s favorite city in India.
这是我女儿最喜欢的印度城市。
Really?
真的吗？
Yes.
是的。
What does she like about it?
她喜欢它什么？
There’s a kind of noir feel to it all.
这一切都有一种黑色的感觉。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
It’s so compelling and so strong and just grabs you, and you feel it on every street, every block.
它如此引人注目、如此强烈，抓住了你，你在每条街道、每一个街区都能感受到它。
It’s probably still the most intellectual Indian city with the best bookshops, a certain public intellectual life.
它可能仍然是印度最有智慧的城市，拥有最好的书店和一定的公共知识分子生活。
It’s widespread.
它很普遍。
It’s not just elite.
这不仅仅是精英。
It’s everyone.
是每个人。
We went to a huge book fair.
我们去了一个大型书展。
It’s like going to .
就像要去一样。
.
。
.
。
I don’t know what it’s like going to, Kumbh Mela or something.
我不知道去大壶节是什么感觉。
It’s extraordinary.
这是非凡的。
There’s a huge tent right in the middle, and it’s for what they call little magazines.
中间有一个巨大的帐篷，里面放着他们所谓的小杂志。
Little magazines are these very small publications run by one or two people.
小杂志是由一两个人经营的非常小的出版物。
They’ll publish poetry.
他们会出版诗歌。
They’ll publish interesting stories.
他们会发表有趣的故事。
Sadly, I don’t speak Bengali because I’d love to be reading this stuff.
可悲的是，我不会说孟加拉语，因为我很想读这些东西。
There are hundreds of these things.
这些东西有数百个。
They survive, and people buy them.
它们生存下来，人们就会购买它们。
It’s not just the elite.
不仅仅是精英。
It’s extraordinary in that way.
从这方面来说，这是很了不起的。
Is there any significant hardship associated with living there, say a few months of the year?
在那里生活（例如一年中的几个月）是否存在任何重大困难？
For us, no. There’s a lot of hardship —
对我们来说，不。有很多困难 ——
No pollution?
没有污染吗？
Yes.
是的。
The biggest pollution for me is the noise, the noise pollution.
对我来说最大的污染是噪音，噪音污染。
Yes, of course.
是的当然。
The honking horns, Jesus Christ.
鸣响的号角，耶稣基督。
Really, you want to rip those horns out of those cars because people don’t use their horn for any particular reason, it seems.
真的，你想把这些喇叭从汽车上撕下来，因为人们似乎不会因为任何特殊原因使用喇叭。
It’s like a heartbeat.
就像心跳一样。
What’s the future of that city?
那个城市的未来是什么？
It hasn’t grown as much as many other parts of India.
它的增长速度不如印度其他许多地区。
No.
不。
It feels run down, which maybe is part of the charm, but it becomes a problem over time.
它给人一种破旧的感觉，这也许是魅力的一部分，但随着时间的推移，它就会成为一个问题。
It’s deindustrializing.
这是去工业化。
A writer I know, who lives there, was saying that the property development is all a scam in a way.
我认识的一位住在那里的作家说，房地产开发在某种程度上是一个骗局。
You were talking about noir.
你在谈论黑色。
I did a project on the Art Deco homes in Kolkata.
我做了一个关于加尔各答装饰艺术住宅的项目。
They’re wonderful.
他们很棒。
They were usually people from East Bengal, middle-class people, I suppose, fleeing partition and the war in ’71.
我想，他们通常是来自东孟加拉邦的中产阶级，为了逃离分治和 71 年的战争。
They came to Kolkata, and they built their houses, and they loved Art Deco.
他们来到加尔各答，建造了自己的房子，他们热爱装饰艺术。
They loved the modernism of Art Deco.
他们喜欢装饰艺术的现代主义。
Each house is different.
每个房子都不一样。
They are now being torn down to make way for flats, apartments, five-story, three-story even.
它们现在正被拆除，为公寓、公寓、五层楼、甚至三层楼让路。
The point is it’s flats, whereas these buildings would’ve housed a very extended family, maybe 20 people living in it.
关键是它是公寓，而这些建筑物本来可以容纳一个大家庭，也许有 20 个人住在里面。
Now they knock these down.
现在他们把这些都拆掉了。
The reason is because the people living in Kolkata— if it’s a family, probably half the family are in Dubai.
原因是因为生活在加尔各答的人——如果是一个家庭，可能有一半的家庭在迪拜。
Other people are in New York or London or Delhi or Bombay, and there’s one person left, or two people left.
其他人在纽约、伦敦、德里、孟买，只剩下一个人，或者剩下两个人。
The property developers are knocking on the door, saying, “Hey, listen, we’ll give you this much money.” They probably want to stay, but the other people living outside India want to cash in.
房地产开发商正在敲门，说：“嘿，听着，我们会给你这么多钱。”他们可能想留下来，但居住在印度境外的其他人想从中获利。
They don’t want to go back to the city.
他们不想回到城市。
It’s not the future for them.
这不是他们的未来。
In some ways, you could say it is slightly a dying city, but there is stuff going on.
在某些方面，你可以说这是一座濒临死亡的城市，但确实有一些事情正在发生。
There’s a very thriving art scene.
这里的艺术氛围非常繁荣。
You do see shops opening all the time.
你确实会看到商店一直在营业。
There’re new restaurants.
有新餐厅。
I don’t know how it all works.
我不知道这一切是如何运作的。
They’re not very happy with Modi.
他们对莫迪不太满意。
They’re unusual in that.
他们在这方面很不寻常。
They’re a very diverse city, and I think they pride themselves in that, which isn’t really the Modi message.
他们是一个非常多元化的城市，我认为他们为此感到自豪，但这并不是莫迪真正想要传达的信息。
You’re right, it’s not part of the thrusting new India, and that is what its charm is, for an outsider, anyway, and for people living there.
你是对的，它不是正在崛起的新印度的一部分，但这就是它的魅力所在，无论如何，对于局外人以及生活在那里的人们来说。
I know.
我知道。
Where else do you want to live?
您还想住在哪里？
I love London.
我爱伦敦。
The thing is, I moved to London in ’87, and I never thought of London as my home for many years because I was traveling a lot.
问题是，我在 87 年搬到了伦敦，多年来我从未想过伦敦是我的家，因为我经常旅行。
It was a great base.
这是一个很棒的基地。
Also, London has improved.
此外，伦敦也有所改善。
I’ve got photographs when I arrived in London, and it was a shabby place.
我有到达伦敦时的照片，那是一个破旧的地方。
It was violent in many ways, more violent than it is now.
它在很多方面都很暴力，比现在更暴力。
It was a tough place.
这是一个艰难的地方。
I think the edges have been rounded out, and food has got a lot better.
我认为边缘已经变圆了，食物也好多了。
Transport seems to have got better.
交通似乎变得更好了。
Everything is more expensive, and it’s very difficult in that way.
所有东西都更贵，这样就非常困难。
It was a very shabby place when I came in ’87, but it’s really improved.
当我87年来到这里时，那是一个非常破旧的地方，但现在已经有了很大的改善。
For me, it’s really improved.
对我来说，它确实得到了改善。
I love London.
我爱伦敦。
I could live in Dublin.
我可以住在都柏林。
I think I could live in Dublin.
我想我可以住在都柏林。
I’d be happy between London and Kolkata, that’ll do.
我很乐意往返于伦敦和加尔各答之间，这样就可以了。
Which is your life, right?
哪一个才是你的人生，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
Then travel, yes.
然后去旅行，是的。
I want to see more of India — that’s the other thing.
我想更多地了解印度——那是另一回事。
Being in Kolkata, it’s a gateway to not just India but Southeast Asia.
位于加尔各答，它不仅是通往印度，而且是通往东南亚的门户。
If I can combine that with work, that would be the key.
如果我能把它和工作结合起来，那就是关键。
What do you think is the future of Syria?
您认为叙利亚的未来是什么？
You’ve done work there, right?
你在那里工作过，对吗？
A lot has changed in the last year.
去年发生了很多变化。
Is there hope?
有希望吗？
Can you go there now?
你现在可以去那里吗？
I think you can.
我想你可以。
I went there when I really shouldn’t have gone there in 2012.
2012年，当我真的不应该去那里时，我去了那里。
It really looked like it was all over for Assad, and then Russia came in and helped them.
看起来阿萨德真的一切都结束了，然后俄罗斯介入并帮助了他们。
I did a small little multimedia piece, and I wrote the script saying that 5,000 people had been killed in 2012.
我做了一个小型的多媒体作品，我写的剧本说2012年有5000人被杀。
What was the figure at the end of that war?
那场战争结束时的数字是多少？
They’re wonderful people.
他们是很棒的人。
I remember being in Syria in 2007, I think it was.
我记得 2007 年在叙利亚，我想是这样。
I did a story for a magazine, which was in Lebanon and Syria.
我为一本杂志写了一篇故事，内容是在黎巴嫩和叙利亚。
We went from Beirut — you could drive just across into Damascus, and it was like going from one planet to another in many ways.
我们从贝鲁特出发——你可以开车穿过大马士革，从很多方面来说，这就像从一个星球到另一个星球。
People were so honest and friendly.
人们是如此诚实和友好。
I’m not saying the Lebanese are dishonest, but there was just a very different atmosphere.
我并不是说黎巴嫩人不诚实，只是气氛非常不同。
They were so friendly and just a lovely, lovely, lovely place.
他们非常友好，是一个可爱、可爱、可爱的地方。
Even in 2012, when things were really tough, people were fantastic.
即使在 2012 年，当事情非常艰难时，人们仍然很棒。
The future — I don’t know.
未来 —— 我不知道。
I really haven’t been following it.
我确实没关注过。
The problem with me is that when I stop doing work in a place, something else is taking my attention, and I’m not very good at keeping up with it.
我的问题是，当我停止在一个地方工作时，其他事情就会吸引我的注意力，而我不太擅长跟上它。
If I was supposed to go to Syria in two days, I would read all I could and get myself informed.
如果我两天后要去叙利亚，我会阅读所有我能读到的书，让自己了解情况。
I haven’t really been very diligent in keeping up with Syria, I’m afraid.
恐怕我并没有真正努力跟上叙利亚的步伐。
Is that the most danger you’ve been in?
这是你经历过的最危险的一次吗？
Or would you say Nigeria or somewhere else?
或者你会说尼日利亚或其他地方？
Well, Nigeria was very dangerous.
嗯，尼日利亚非常危险。
I was in two instances within hours of each other where I really thought I was going to be killed.
我有两次在相隔几个小时内真的以为自己会被杀的情况。
Killed for what reason?
因什么原因被杀？
For being a photographer.
因为是一名摄影师。
We basically ran into…
我们基本上遇到了……
Boko Haram?
博科圣地？
Boko Haram, yes.
博科圣地，是的。
Literally, I was photographing through the windscreen.
从字面上看，我是透过挡风玻璃拍摄的。
I thought I was just going into a money market, and I was photographing the currency exchanges.
我以为我只是进入货币市场，而我正在拍摄货币兑换。
The driver didn’t tell me, this is all Boko Haram, and that’s what they do.
司机没有告诉我，这都是博科圣地，他们就是这么做的。
Suddenly, they were trying to drag me out of the car.
突然，他们试图把我从车里拖出来。
It was a horrible situation.
这是一个可怕的情况。
I was with the same journalist, Eliza Griswold.
我和同一个记者一起，伊丽莎·格里斯沃尔德。
We were very lucky to get out of that alive.
我们很幸运能够活着摆脱困境。
How did you get out of it alive?
你是怎么活着出来的？
We had a driver who was very sharp and very good.
我们有一个非常敏锐且非常好的司机。
He tried to talk them down.
他试图说服他们。
It was a mob, and they dragged him out, and they beat him up.
那是一群暴徒，他们把他拖出来，殴打他。
They were after my camera, is what they were after, because they thought I had something that was of value.
他们想要我的相机，这就是他们想要的，因为他们认为我有一些有价值的东西。
In the end, I gave them a card, which wasn’t the card that I’d been shooting the stuff on.
最后，我给了他们一张卡片，这不是我用来拍摄东西的卡片。
Then there was a mullah who came and tried to calm everyone down, and he did.
然后有一位毛拉过来试图让大家平静下来，他做到了。
Then it all rose up again.
然后一切又再次升起。
The atmosphere became crazy.
气氛变得疯狂。
Then there was some kind of a secret security policeman who must have been shadowing us, must have been following us, because he stepped in.
然后有一个秘密安全警察一定一直在跟踪我们，一定一直在跟踪我们，因为他介入了。
It took him a long time.
他花了很长时间。
We were showing credentials and all the rest of it.
我们出示了凭据和所有其他内容。
They were really out for blood.
他们真的是想吐血了。
Then a few hours later, I was photographing on a bridge.
几个小时后，我在一座桥上拍照。
I thought I was safe to photograph on this bridge.
我以为在这座桥上拍照是安全的。
There were people living down below the bridge, but what happened was, people were climbing up the columns of the bridge and came running after me.
桥下有人住，但结果是，人们爬上桥的柱子，追着我跑。
The car was driving, and I had to run, open up the car door and jump in and take off.
车在行驶，我必须跑过去，打开车门，跳进去，然后起飞。
Like in the movies.
就像电影里一样。
Like in the movies, yes.
就像电影里一样，是的。
You can actually do that.
你实际上可以这样做。
You can chase a moving car and open the door and jump in.
你可以追赶一辆行驶中的汽车，然后打开车门跳进去。
First of all, it was the window.
首先，是窗户。
The window was open.
窗户是开着的。
I threw my camera in the window, and then I grabbed the door open.
我把相机扔到窗子上，然后打开门。
The guy was driving slowly enough that I could keep up with him, but fast enough that, if things got troublesome, he could lose the crowd behind me.
那家伙开得足够慢，我可以跟上他，但也足够快，如果事情变得麻烦，他可能会失去我身后的人群。
On similarities between Russia and America
俄罗斯和美国之间的相似之处
If I were to say that Michigan is, for me, the American state most like Russia — visually — do you agree?
如果我说密歇根州对我来说是最像俄罗斯的美国州——“视觉上”——你同意吗？
Looks like it.
看起来是这样。
Yes, I could see that.
是的，我看得出来。
What else struck you as similarities visually between the US and Russia?
美国和俄罗斯之间还有哪些视觉上的相似之处？
People, people’s behavior.
人，人的行为。
There’s a grandness to both places, even in the design of things.
这两个地方都很宏伟，甚至在设计上也是如此。
You look at things like, well, telephone boxes.
你会看到诸如电话亭之类的东西。
We don’t really have them anymore, payphones.
我们真的不再拥有公用电话了。
The American payphone — I don’t think it changed in decades, whereas payphones in the rest of the world changed every few years, redesigned.
美国的公用电话 ——我认为它几十年来都没有改变，而世界其他地方的公用电话每隔几年就会发生变化，重新设计。
There’s a staple design, solid, and I guess it’s industrial.
有一个主要的设计，坚固，我想它是工业化的。
There’s industrial similarity between the two countries.
两国的产业有相似之处。
Things are built to last.
事物经久耐用。
What led you to do a book on the visual similarities between America and Russia?
是什么促使你写一本关于美国和俄罗斯之间视觉相似性的书？
I’d been working on a project in America for a number of years.
我在美国的一个项目已经工作了很多年。
First of all, I wanted to do a book that was going to be in time for the 50th anniversary of On the Road, the Jack Kerouac book.
首先，我想写一本能赶上《在路上》五十周年纪念的书，即杰克·凯鲁亚克的书。
I thought if I did a book on America now, that’d be a good thing.
我想如果我现在写一本关于美国的书，那将是一件好事。
By the time 2007 came around, which is when the anniversary was, I still wanted to go.
到了2007年，也就是周年纪念日的时候，我仍然想去。
There was more I wanted to do, so I kept going, and then in 2008, I was commissioned to go to the Russian Far East and photograph the country and the life behind this huge economic boom, all the energy resources, but, really, about the people and what life was like.
我想做的事情还有很多，所以我继续前行，然后在 2008 年，我受命前往俄罗斯远东地区，拍摄这个国家和巨大的经济繁荣背后的生活、所有的能源资源，但实际上，拍摄的是这里的人民和生活是什么样的。
That’s where the idea struck me that this is not huge.
这就是我突然意识到这并不大。
Of course, it’s very different, but there’re many, many similarities.
当然，两者有很大不同，但也有很多很多相似之处。
I thought that was a very interesting conceit.
我认为这是一个非常有趣的想法。
We’re told that we’ve got fatal enemies, we’ve got natural enemies, and yet people from both places — they could be in either country, they could be each other at times.
我们被告知，我们有致命的敌人，我们有天敌，但来自两个地方的人——他们可能在任何一个国家，有时也可能是彼此。
I thought that was an interesting idea.
我认为这是一个有趣的想法。
This idea was just an idea at that stage.
这个想法在那个阶段还只是一个想法。
Then, I continued to work on things in America.
然后我就继续在美国做事情。
I got involved in filmmaking.
我参与了电影制作。
I met PJ Harvey, and we had a few projects that took me away from the project.
我遇到了 PJ Harvey，我们有几个项目让我离开了这个项目。
Then Trump started coming and making noises about Putin.
然后特朗普开始对普京大肆议论。
There was this sort of bromance.
有这种兄弟情谊。
I thought, “This is very interesting.
我想：“这很有趣。
This is the old idea I had of similarities.” I decided I’d go back to Russia to see if I could do some work there.
这是我对相似之处的老想法。”我决定回到俄罗斯看看是否可以在那里做一些工作。
I went back in 2017 and 2019.
我在2017年和2019年回过国。
I went back to the Urals because the Urals was the closest I could find to an equivalent in a way.
我回到乌拉尔，因为乌拉尔在某种程度上是我能找到的最接近的地方。
The Urals are an industrial area.
乌拉尔地区是一个工业区。
I’d done quite a lot of work in the Pittsburgh area, Pennsylvania.
我在宾夕法尼亚州匹兹堡地区做了很多工作。
I thought that was a fair comparison.
我认为这是一个公平的比较。
Really, as a photographer, I’m photographing people all the time.
确实，作为一名摄影师，我一直在拍摄人物。
It’s people, it’s what they’re doing, it’s their relationships with each other.
是人，是他们所做的事情，是他们彼此之间的关系。
It’s the funny things they do.
这是他们做的有趣的事情。
It’s the funny things that I see.
这是我看到的有趣的事情。
It’s the beauty that I see, how people struggle.
这是我看到的美丽，人们的挣扎。
That’s what I’m after.
这就是我所追求的。
It’s very easy to come up with themes when you’re looking at pictures you’ve shot, but if you’re to go out with a theme in your head, it would be quite restricting in some ways.
当你看着自己拍摄的照片时，想出主题是很容易的，但如果你要带着一个主题出去，在某些方面会受到很大的限制。
I think the photographs wouldn’t be as interesting, for me anyway.
无论如何，我认为这些照片对我来说不会那么有趣。
I like that spontaneity.
我喜欢这种自发性。
So, you come back, and you look at the pictures, and then you start putting together the themes, and themes present themselves, themes perhaps you hadn’t even thought about.
所以，你回来后，你会看到这些图片，然后你开始将主题放在一起，主题就会出现，这些主题可能是你从未想过的。
Right down to the very last days of putting the book together — this was a many, many years project — there were pictures that were always going to be in the edit, always going to be in.
直到最后几天将这本书放在一起 ——“这是一个很多很多年的项目”——“编辑中总是会出现一些图片。
There’s no way they were going to come out.
他们不可能出来。
And they came out because they had to make room for this other picture that I found.
他们出来是因为他们必须为我找到的另一张照片腾出空间。
It’s a very fluid practice, and it’s a great practice.
这是一个非常流畅的练习，也是一个很棒的练习。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I love putting work together like that, sequencing it, editing it.
我喜欢这样把工作放在一起，排序，编辑。
These two pictures give you a certain mood, a certain feeling, a certain meaning.
这两张图给你一定的心情，一定的感觉，一定的意义。
At one stage, I had 136 pictures in the book.
书中曾一度有 136 张图片。
That was going to be it.
就这样了。
I couldn’t imagine taking anything out.
我无法想象取出任何东西。
Then over time, I started really going into the work, and I ended up with 88 pictures.
随着时间的推移，我开始真正投入工作，最终完成了 88 张照片。
By doing that, I was changing the meaning of the book.
通过这样做，我改变了这本书的含义。
I was making it lighter in some ways.
我在某些方面让它变得更轻。
It’s a great process.
这是一个很棒的过程。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Why don’t Russians smile more?
为什么俄罗斯人不多微笑？
Or do you think they do?
或者你认为他们这样做？
When I came back from that trip in 2008, it was for a magazine called Dispatches.
2008 年，当我从那次旅行回来时，是为了一份名为《Dispatches》的杂志。
I wrote a little piece, and I said something like, “Serious people make me laugh.
我写了一篇小文章，说了这样的话：“严肃的人让我发笑。
Very serious people make me laugh a lot.
非常严肃的人让我笑很多。
Russians are the most serious people I’ve ever met.” So, they made me laugh a lot.
俄罗斯人是我见过的最严肃的人。”所以，他们让我笑了很多。
I think what it is, is that they have this very dark sense of humor.
我认为他们有这种非常黑色幽默感。
Again, very like the Irish, there’s a dark sense of humor.
再次，就像爱尔兰人一样，有一种黑色幽默感。
I think that they’ll crack a joke, but they won’t smile, and that’s part of the joke.
我认为他们会开玩笑，但他们不会微笑，这就是笑话的一部分。
It’s also like you don’t even know it’s a joke, and that’s the humor.
就好像你甚至不知道这是一个笑话，这就是幽默。
My wife grew up in the Soviet Union, and she has the basic view that people who smile too much are idiots.
我的妻子在苏联长大，她有一个基本观点：笑得太多的人都是白痴。
Yes.
是的。
She and all her friends — they have excellent senses of humor.
她和她所有的朋友——他们都具有极好的幽默感。
Yes.
是的。
And they’re great storytellers.
他们是很棒的讲故事的人。
It’s true, but haven’t there been studies done that if you smile a lot, it makes you feel better?
确实如此，但不是有研究表明，如果你经常微笑，你会感觉更好吗？
That’s right.
这是正确的。
Maybe it’s a good thing to smile, but yes, there is this moody, almost like Jean-Paul Sartre existential quizzing of everything.
也许微笑是件好事，但是，是的，有一种喜怒无常的感觉，几乎就像让·保罗·萨特对一切事物的存在主义质疑。
“Ooh, why smile?” sort of thing.
“哎呀，为什么要笑呢？”之类的事情。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Did you visit Magnitogorsk in the Urals?
您访问过乌拉尔地区的马格尼托哥尔斯克吗？
No.
不。
Do people in the Urals seem happy to you?
您觉得乌拉尔地区的人们幸福吗？
I know it’s a complex question, but what’s your sense of the actual living standard?
我知道这是一个复杂的问题，但是您对实际生活水平的感觉如何？
I saw there were rich and poor, and there were people in the middle.
我看到有富人和穷人，还有中间的人。
I don’t think that people were happy with the regime.
我不认为人们对这个政权感到满意。
A lot of the people that I was hanging out with were not happy with the regime, for sure, and that was before the Ukraine war.
当然，和我一起出去玩的很多人都对这个政权不满意，那是在乌克兰战争之前。
There’s corruption.
有腐败。
Things are tough, but they have their dachas.
事情很艰难，但他们有自己的别墅。
They eat quite well.
他们吃得很好。
I think, they read a lot.
我想，他们读了很多书。
Again, huge generalizations, I’m afraid.
恐怕，这又是一个巨大的概括。
It’s a huge country, but I think people are as happy as anywhere else, what I saw.
这是一个幅员辽阔的国家，但我认为人们和我所看到的其他地方一样快乐。
People in London complain a lot.
伦敦人抱怨很多。
People in Paris complain a lot, but they’re also very happy.
巴黎人抱怨很多，但也很高兴。
On working with PJ Harvey
关于与 PJ Harvey 的合作
What was your role in the PJ Harvey album, Let England Shake?
你在 PJ Harvey 的专辑 Let England Shake 中扮演了什么角色？
Well, that was an interesting one because I’d done a book on Afghanistan in 2008 and Polly had seen the exhibition in London, and she bought the book, and she got in touch and was interested in meeting me and talking about that.
嗯，那很有趣，因为我在 2008 年写了一本关于阿富汗的书，波莉看过伦敦的展览，她买了这本书，她联系了我，有兴趣与我见面并谈论这件事。
At that stage, she’d been writing the songs, and she’d done a demo, so, really, she’d already done all the work.
在那个阶段，她一直在写歌曲，并且做了演示，所以，实际上，她已经完成了所有的工作。
I think some of my work might have influenced her in some way by looking at pictures from Afghanistan because she wrote about the First World War, she wrote about Iraq, she wrote about Afghanistan, and she wrote about England.
我认为我的一些作品可能通过查看阿富汗的照片在某种程度上影响了她，因为她写了第一次世界大战，她写了伊拉克，她写了阿富汗，她写了英国。
That was Let England Shake.
那就是让英格兰震动。
I came back from Afghanistan, actually, having shot some video for the first time, and she said, “Oh, you shoot video too?
事实上，我从阿富汗回来，第一次拍摄一些视频，她说：“哦，你也拍视频吗？
Would you like to make some music films for me?” I said, “Sure.” That was what I ended up doing.
你愿意为我拍一些音乐电影吗？”我说：“当然。”这就是我最终所做的。
She gave me the demo.
她给了我演示。
It wasn’t an album at that stage, and I put together an idea.
在那个阶段这还不是一张专辑，我提出了一个想法。
First of all, I was going to go to Iraq and Afghanistan to shoot these music films in those places because these places were being referenced so much in the songs.
首先，我打算去伊拉克和阿富汗在那些地方拍摄这些音乐电影，因为这些地方在歌曲中被大量提及。
Then I thought, actually, stay in England.
然后我想，实际上，留在英国。
It’s called Let England Shake.
这就是所谓的“让英格兰震动”。
Stay in England and find some kind of visual equivalent of that legacy.
留在英格兰，寻找某种与这一遗产在视觉上相当的东西。
That legacy of colonies and colonialism, of the First World War, and find it in the English people, and find it in the cities and the countryside, so I ended up doing this road trip around England twice, and I shot a lot of video, and I put it together, and I made 12 short films for that album.
殖民地和殖民主义的遗产，第一次世界大战的遗产，在英国人民身上找到了，在城市和乡村中找到了，所以我最终在英国进行了两次公路旅行，我拍摄了很多视频，然后把它们放在一起，为那张专辑制作了 12 部短片。
It was making music films for that album.
它正在为该专辑制作音乐电影。
Those are on your website, right?
这些都在你的网站上，对吗？
They’re on the website, yes.
他们在网站上，是的。
We thought that worked very well, and the next project we decided what we’d do is, we would actually start that project at the same time, so I would be photographing and filming, and she would be taking notes, writing poetry and songs, and we’d do some traveling together.
我们认为这非常有效，我们决定要做的下一个项目是，我们实际上会同时开始该项目，所以我会拍照和录像，她会做笔记，写诗和歌曲，我们会一起旅行。
That ended up becoming Hope Six Demolition Project.
这最终成为希望六号拆除项目。
That was the name of the album.
这就是专辑的名称。
Do you think you and she saw something about England back then that was ahead of its time?
你认为你和她当时对英国的看法是否超前于时代？
I think she did.
我想她做到了。
What was that?
那是什么？
It was Brexit, wasn’t it?
这是英国脱欧，不是吗？
In its simplest form, it was Brexit.
最简单的形式就是英国脱欧。
“God Damn Europeans” is one of the songs that starts out.
“该死的欧洲人”是开头的歌曲之一。
It’s some person being quoted.
这是引用某人的话。
She’s written the lyric, “God Damn Europeans.” I guess it was tapping into some kind of patriotism, nationalism.
她写了歌词“该死的欧洲人”。我想这是在利用某种爱国主义、民族主义。
The further album, Hope Six Demolition Project, that came out of trips to Kosovo and Washington.
另一张专辑《希望六拆除项目》是在科索沃和华盛顿之旅中诞生的。
Am I understanding this correctly?
我的理解正确吗？
Trips to Afghanistan.
阿富汗之旅。
Kosovo, Washington, DC.
科索沃，华盛顿特区。
We’d decided we’d like to travel together and see where things would take us.
我们决定一起去旅行，看看事情会带我们去哪里。
The promise to each other was, if we did this once and it just didn’t work, that’s fine.
彼此的承诺是，如果我们这样做过一次但没有成功，那也没关系。
We wouldn’t do it.
我们不会这样做。
We were invited to Kosovo, to a very good film festival called the DokuFest in Prizren, and they wanted us to do a Q&A based on my 12 short films for Let England Shake.
我们受邀前往科索沃，参加普里兹伦举办的 DokuFest 电影节，他们希望我们根据我为《让英格兰动摇》拍摄的 12 部短片进行问答。
I’d been to Kosovo during the war, and she’d already started writing some stuff, actually, based on some of my pictures.
战争期间我去过科索沃，实际上她已经开始根据我的一些照片写一些东西了。
We went, and we thought, “Okay, we’ll go on this, and maybe this can be the start of the travels.” The Balkans are a fascinating place to go to, and Kosovo is at peace, but very interesting and very, very warm people.
我们去了，然后想：“好吧，我们继续下去，也许这就是旅行的开始。”巴尔干半岛是一个令人着迷的地方，科索沃很和平，但非常有趣，人们非常非常热情。
We spent a few days in Kosovo, and we discovered that we could travel together, and we could actually produce work, and we were sort of up and running.
我们在科索沃呆了几天，我们发现我们可以一起旅行，我们实际上可以生产工作，而且我们已经开始运作了。
A year later, I was in Afghanistan working on that poetry project, The Afghan Women’s Poetry Project, a book and film.
一年后，我在阿富汗从事诗歌项目《阿富汗妇女诗歌项目》，这是一本书和一部电影。
It was quiet there.
那里很安静。
It was 2012.
那是2012年。
I had finished my work there; it was December.
我已经完成了那里的工作；那是十二月。
I had a very good situation with a very nice place to live, a good driver that I trusted, and I just offered, would she like to come and visit Afghanistan?
我的条件非常好，有一个非常好的住所，一个我信任的好司机，我刚刚提出，她愿意来阿富汗吗？
Didn’t know whether she would or not, and in the end, she did, and we did that.
不知道她是否愿意，但最终她做到了，我们也这么做了。
That was pretty extraordinary because I think what she wrote about Afghanistan was so unique.
这非常了不起，因为我认为她所写的有关阿富汗的内容非常独特。
It’s a very different take.
这是一个非常不同的看法。
I’d never read anything like what she was writing about Afghanistan.
我从来没有读过她写的关于阿富汗的文章。
How would you characterize that?
您如何形容这一点？
An artist’s eye.
艺术家的眼睛。
I mean a true artist’s vision.
我指的是真正的艺术家的愿景。
Small little things becoming a whole soul.
微小的事情成为一个完整的灵魂。
In her own inimitable way, she was capturing that.
她以自己独特的方式捕捉到了这一点。
It was great to do that with Afghanistan because, as you were saying about photography and what people’s perceptions are of the country, I thought this would bring a slightly different take on the place for people that would listen.
在阿富汗做这件事真是太棒了，因为正如你所说的摄影和人们对这个国家的看法，我认为这会给愿意倾听的人们带来稍微不同的看法。
Do you have a PJ Harvey story that you’re able to tell us?
您有 PJ Harvey 的故事可以告诉我们吗？
Well, funnily enough, yes.
好吧，有趣的是，是的。
The thing that comes to mind is the weirdest story.
我想到的是最奇怪的故事。
When we were coming back from Afghanistan on Turkish Airlines .
当我们乘坐土耳其航空公司从阿富汗回来时。
.
。
.
。
We had our trip, and we went to the Panjshir Valley.
我们的旅行去了潘杰希尔山谷。
We had a few little scrapes, but nothing because there weren’t any Taliban there at that time.
我们遇到了一些小擦伤，但没什么，因为当时那里没有塔利班。
There were, but they were in other places.
有，但他们在其他地方。
We didn’t go into those places.
我们没有去那些地方。
It was fairly uneventful, but there was always the possibility of something happening.
事情虽然平淡无奇，但总有发生意外的可能。
Job done, and we were flying from Kabul to London.
工作完成，我们从喀布尔飞往伦敦。
Literally, we were just about to land.
从字面上看，我们正要着陆。
Literally, the wheels were down, and the engines were roared into action, and we took off.
毫不夸张地说，车轮落下，发动机轰鸣着启动，我们起飞了。
I just turned to her, and I said, “Jesus, I hope we’re not being kidnapped or something.
我转向她，说道：“天啊，我希望我们没有被绑架什么的。
This is very strange.”
这很奇怪。”
We flew around for about half an hour.
我们飞行了大约半个小时。
Nobody said a word.
没有人说一句话。
Everyone was freaked out.
所有人都吓坏了。
People in the airplane were looking for some kind of guidance as to what was going on.
飞机上的人们正在寻求某种关于正在发生的事情的指导。
Obviously, the people that were there, the staff were all seated.
显然，在场的人、工作人员都已经就座了。
That was very strange.
这很奇怪。
I just thought, “What’s going on here?” She was very calm.
我只是想：“这是怎么回事？”她很平静。
What was going on?
发生了什么事？
Don’t know.
不知道。
To this day, I don’t know.
直到今天，我还不知道。
Got off the plane, was happy to be on terra firma, and that was the end of it.
下了飞机，很高兴能踏上陆地，一切就这样结束了。
Forgot about it.
忘记了。
I just thought about it right now.
我现在才想起来。
On spotting talent
关于发现人才
Now, if you meet a young person, and that person wants to be some modified version of what you have done — photography, possibly something with cinema, multimedia projects, working with music.
现在，如果你遇到一个年轻人，那个人想成为你所做的事情的某种修改版本——摄影，可能是电影、多媒体项目、音乐方面的工作。
Of course, they should work hard, and they should be smart, but what are the traits you would look for in them to judge whether or not that was possible for them to do?
当然，他们应该努力工作，他们应该聪明，但是你会在他们身上寻找哪些特质来判断他们是否可以做到这一点？
I think it would not be a technical thing.
我认为这不会是一个技术问题。
I think people can learn technical stuff very quickly.
我认为人们可以很快地学习技术知识。
The technology is so accessible.
这项技术是如此容易获得。
I think it’s themselves.
我认为是他们自己。
I think it’s their interests.
我认为这是他们的利益。
I think it’s their curiosity.
我认为这是他们的好奇心。
It’s a very tough field to get into.
这是一个非常难进入的领域。
It’s very competitive.
竞争非常激烈。
It’s changed so much since I started doing it, but that, actually, they could handle because they grew up with the technology and the way things are, so that wouldn’t be a problem for them.
自从我开始这样做以来，情况发生了很大的变化，但实际上，他们可以处理，因为他们是随着技术和事物的方式长大的，所以这对他们来说不是问题。
I think it’s really to do it and to do it properly and to have a proper career in it and spend the time you’d need, you really have to be interested in what you’re talking about.
我认为真正要做的就是正确地做这件事，并在其中拥有适当的职业并花费你需要的时间，你真的必须对你所谈论的事情感兴趣。
You have to have a curiosity.
你必须有好奇心。
You have to have a real interest and a love of it.
你必须对它有真正的兴趣和热爱。
Whether it’s the photography, whether it’s the politics, whether it’s the environment — whatever the subject is.
无论是摄影，无论是政治，还是环境 ——无论是什么主题。
You should always do work that you love.
你应该永远做你喜欢的工作。
Of course, you’ll have to do work that you don’t love to make a living and to get on and pay bills, but projects that you take on that take time and take a lot of energy, and many times you think it’s going to be a failure, and nothing will ever come of it — you have to love what you’re doing.
当然，你必须做一些你不喜欢的工作来谋生、维持生计并支付账单，但你所承担的项目需要时间和大量精力，很多时候你认为这会失败，永远不会有任何结果 —— 你必须热爱你正在做的事情。
You have to have an interest.
你必须有兴趣。
I think that the biggest advice is to follow the things that you love and find a way to make it work.
我认为最大的建议是追随你喜欢的事情，并找到让它发挥作用的方法。
Do you feel there was a point in your career when you didn’t do that?
你觉得你的职业生涯中是否有某个时刻你没有这样做？
Or you think you’ve just executed on that consistently?
或者你认为你一直在执行这一点？
I definitely did it.
我绝对做到了。
There was a period at the beginning when I was working a lot for a Swedish newspaper.
一开始有一段时间我为一家瑞典报纸工作很多。
Was very good pay, and they were lovely people.
工资很高，而且他们都是可爱的人。
I was traveling around England for them.
我为他们环游英格兰。
I don’t resent doing it.
我并不讨厌这样做。
I’m very happy I did it.
我很高兴我做到了。
Economically, it was very stabilizing for me.
从经济上来说，这对我来说非常稳定。
I spent quite a lot of time doing that.
我花了很多时间来做这件事。
I needed to do that because I needed to pay the bills.
我需要这样做，因为我需要支付账单。
I wasn’t independently wealthy.
我并不独立富有。
But when I did get the chance to do some traveling and do the work that I really wanted to do, it was another reality.
但当我确实有机会去旅行并做我真正想做的工作时，这是另一个现实。
It would’ve been nice to have done that work earlier, but that’s the way it goes.
如果早点完成这项工作就好了，但事情就是这样。
What do you see as having been your big breakthrough, so to speak?
可以这么说，您认为您的重大突破是什么？
Biggest breakthrough was the first piece I had published in England, which was about young working-class kids in Dublin having ponies in their back gardens in urban areas, inner city areas.
最大的突破是我在英国发表的第一篇文章，内容是关于都柏林的年轻工人阶级孩子在城市地区、内城区的后花园里养小马的故事。
Where they would normally have cats and dogs, they had horses.
他们通常养猫和狗的地方却养马。
I came across this having come back from America.
我从美国回来后发现了这个。
I saw this kid on a horseback bareback, riding past me in this urban estate.
我看到这个孩子骑着马，在这座城市庄园里从我身边经过。
I thought, “That’s really strange.” Then again, I’d seen that.
我想：“这真的很奇怪。”话又说回来，我也看到了。
I’d grown up with this.
我就是伴随着这个长大的。
I knew it, but having come from the outside, this was something that was very unusual for my eyes.
我知道这一点，但从外面来，这对我来说是很不寻常的事情。
I followed that, and I found out that there was a horse market every month that these kids were going to.
我跟踪了一下，发现这些孩子每个月都会去一个马市。
They would have races, and they would buy and sell ponies.
他们会举办比赛，他们会买卖小马。
I went to their homes, and I saw how they looked after the ponies.
我去了他们的家，看到他们是如何照顾小马的。
I did that story, and that was the first story I published in England.
我写了那个故事，这是我在英国发表的第一个故事。
That was the break.
那就是休息。
That was when the Swedish newspaper saw that story and wanted me to go to Ireland with them to shoot it in color.
就在那时，瑞典报纸看到了这个故事，并希望我和他们一起去爱尔兰拍摄彩色电影。
That was the breakthrough.
这就是突破。
After that, I was off to the races, as they say.
之后，正如他们所说，我就去参加比赛了。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
First, if our listeners want to consume more of you, where would you send them?
首先，如果我们的听众想要更多地了解你，你会把他们送到哪里？
I suppose my website, seamusmurphy.com.
我想我的网站是seamusmurphy.com。
I’m very proud of the book that I’ve just come out with, Strange Love.
我对我刚刚出版的《奇爱》这本书感到非常自豪。
It was a very long process.
这是一个非常漫长的过程。
I think it’s very relevant to the world today, and I think it’s probably my best work.
我认为这与当今世界非常相关，而且我认为这可能是我最好的作品。
That’s the visual comparison of America and Russia, which I very much quite liked, to be clear.
明确地说，这是我非常喜欢的美国和俄罗斯的视觉比较。
I gave a copy to my wife who will read through it.
我给了我妻子一份副本，她会仔细阅读。
Oh, did you?
哦，是吗？
What did she make of it?
她对此有何感想？
She hasn’t looked at it yet, but she will.
她还没看过，但她会的。
It’s in her pile.
它在她的一堆里。
Does she smile at all?
她有微笑吗？
She smiles like an American.
她笑起来像个美国人。
This to me is quite striking.
这对我来说是相当惊人的。
Of the Soviet women who come over, whether or not you marry an American, I think is such an amazing predictor of your smiling behavior 20 years later.
对于过来的苏联女性，无论你是否嫁给美国人，我认为这都是对 20 年后你的微笑行为的惊人预测。
I’m not saying they’re happier, but they do smile much more.
我并不是说他们更快乐，但他们确实笑得更多。
Right, right.
对，对。
Last question: what will you do next?
最后一个问题：接下来你会做什么？
I’m in the process of developing a film about a family that I met in Kabul in 1994, first time I was there.
我正在制作一部关于我 1994 年第一次去喀布尔时认识的家庭的电影。
I stayed with them in this frontline area in the old city.
我和他们一起住在老城区的前线地区。
There were four sons and a father, and I photographed them.
有四个儿子和一个父亲，我给他们拍照。
Then two years later, the Taliban came, and I managed to get down to see them just to see how they were doing.
两年后，塔利班来了，我设法下来见他们，只是想看看他们过得怎么样。
I arranged to meet them somewhere else, because if I met them in their home, it might have been dangerous for them.
我安排在其他地方与他们见面，因为如果我在他们家里见到他们，对他们来说可能会很危险。
I found them, and two of them had been killed by the Taliban.
我找到了他们，其中两个已经被塔利班杀害了。
I did a photograph again of the family.
我又给家人拍了一张照片。
Every time I went to Afghanistan, I would check in with them and see what was going on, and I would take some pictures.
每次我去阿富汗，我都会跟他们打听，看看发生了什么，我也会拍一些照片。
That developed into a very long project, over 30 years now of photographs.
这后来发展成为一个非常漫长的项目，至今已有 30 多年的照片。
There’re two left.
还剩两个。
The two youngest sons are still living.
两个最小的儿子还活着。
One is living in Turkey, and one is living in Germany.
一位住在土耳其，一位住在德国。
None of the family are alive.
一家人都已无人生还。
Most of them were killed in the war.
他们中的大多数人在战争中丧生。
One of the boys that I’d met in in 1994 had already lost one leg.
1994 年我遇到的一个男孩已经失去了一条腿。
He’s living in Turkey; he’s got seven children.
他住在土耳其；他有七个孩子。
The other is living in Germany with five children.
另一个与五个孩子住在德国。
I’m making a film about them.
我正在拍一部关于他们的电影。
I’m developing that at the moment with a producer in Ireland.
我目前正在与爱尔兰的一位制片人一起开发这个项目。
That’s one thing.
这是一回事。
Then there’re always other things I’m doing.
然后我总是在做其他事情。
I’m going back to Ireland.
我要回爱尔兰了。
I’ve just come from Ireland.
我刚从爱尔兰回来。
There’re a couple of ideas that I was researching.
我正在研究几个想法。
I’m trying to put them into practice.
我正在努力将它们付诸实践。
Seamus Murphy, thank you very much.
西莫·墨菲，非常感谢你。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Seamus’ work from his latest book, Strange Love, will be featured in an exhibition in London from October 17- November 2, 2025.
谢莫斯最新著作《奇异的爱》中的作品将于 2025 年 10 月 17 日至 11 月 2 日在伦敦举办的展览中展出。