Sarah Parcak on Archaeology from Space (Ep. 118)

Yes, it’s climate change, it’s social, political, and economic pressure, all combining together.

是的，这是气候变化，是社会、政治和经济压力，所有这些都结合在一起。

I think of the work of my colleague, Professor Eric Cline, in his book, 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed.

我想起了我的同事埃里克·克莱恩教授在他的著作《公元前 1177 年：文明崩溃的一年》中所做的工作。

I recommend that.

我建议这样做。

I always like recommending my colleagues’ books as well, for who focused on this stuff.

我也总是喜欢向那些专注于这些东西的同事推荐书籍。

I think that when we say collapse, it’s systems collapse for the most elite of society.

我认为，当我们说崩溃时，指的是社会最精英的系统崩溃。

When we look back at the archaeological record, when we look at when diverse civilizations “collapsed” or had these systems break down — whether it’s multiple societies, civilizations in the late Bronze Age, whether it’s Egypt circa 2200 BC, which is the end of their great pyramid age.

当我们回顾考古记录时，当我们审视不同文明何时“崩溃”或这些系统崩溃时——无论是青铜时代晚期的多重社会、文明，还是公元前 2200 年左右的埃及，这是他们伟大金字塔时代的结束。

When you look at the Khmer civilization in Cambodia around 1000 AD — most of those cultures in some way, shape, or form still continued or continue to this day.

当你观察公元 1000 年左右柬埔寨的高棉文明时，大多数文化以某种方式、形状或形式仍然延续或延续至今。

Look at the Maya in Central America.

看看中美洲的玛雅人。

So we have to ask ourselves, what is collapsing?

所以我们要问自己，什么是崩溃？

I prefer the word evolve.

我更喜欢进化这个词。

Evolution can be good or it can be bad, but we have to ask what survives and how, and what is collapsing now?

进化可能是好的，也可能是坏的，但我们必须问什么能够幸存，如何生存，以及什么正在崩溃？

What’s making people so uncomfortable?

是什么让人们如此不舒服？

I think, ultimately, when we look at the past and we try to understand what’s going on, we can get a lot of lessons for today and what might survive.

我认为，最终，当我们回顾过去并试图了解正在发生的事情时，我们可以获得今天的很多教训以及可能幸存的东西。

On our understanding of ancient technologies

论我们对古代技术的理解

Whether it’s new DNA studies where we’re able to understand not just that, okay, this group of mummies that was excavated in Egypt 100 years ago, we know that they’re royal.

无论是新的 DNA 研究，我们不仅能够了解这一点，好吧，这组 100 年前在埃及出土的木乃伊，我们知道它们是皇室成员。

Now we know how they are related to each other.

现在我们知道它们之间是如何相关的。

I think, with our own application of physics and chemistry and biology and computation machine learning — putting all these new tools to use, looking at the past, we’re far better able to understand all of their diverse technologies.

我认为，通过我们自己对物理、化学、生物学和计算机机器学习的应用——使用所有这些新工具，回顾过去，我们能够更好地理解他们所有不同的技术。

Of course, we only ever uncover a thousandth of a percent, a teeny tiny fraction of a percent of all that comes from the past.

当然，我们只能发现千分之一，即过去所有事物中的一小部分。

What was left, what was melted down, what was traded, what was repurposed.

剩下什么，什么被熔化，什么被交易，什么被重新利用。

I think, and I think my colleagues would agree, we are in a golden age of archaeological discovery right now.

我认为，我想我的同事们也会同意，我们现在正处于考古发现的黄金时代。

Look at all these amazing headlines that we keep seeing in the paper.

看看我们不断在报纸上看到的所有这些令人惊叹的头条新闻。

We’re going to see some of the most incredible archaeological discoveries ever found in the next few decades.

在接下来的几十年里，我们将看到一些最令人难以置信的考古发现。

You stand there and you go, “Oh my gosh, these are hundreds of feet tall.

你站在那里，说道：“天哪，这些有数百英尺高。

There are millions of blocks.

有数百万个区块。

Each block weighs tons and tons.

每个块重达数吨。

How is this even possible?” Even me as an Egyptologist — I visited them dozens of times.

这怎么可能？即使我作为一名埃及古物学家 —— 我也拜访过他们数十次。

I still stand and am in awe when I see them for the first time every time I land in Egypt.

每次我降落在埃及，当我第一次看到他们时，我仍然会感到敬畏。

They’re an extraordinary marvel.

他们是一个非凡的奇迹。

But when you get really, really close, and you look at each individual block, you start seeing the hundreds and hundreds of little chisel marks, and you’re like, “Oh, it’s person power.”

但是当你非常非常接近，并且你看着每个单独的块时，你开始看到成百上千的小凿痕，你会想，“哦，这是人的力量。”

In Egypt, for three to four months of the year in ancient Egypt, it was a time period when the Nile was flooded.

在埃及，古埃及一年中有三到四个月是尼罗河泛滥的时期。

There were a lot of people all over Egypt who were idling, not really doing very much, so the pharaoh organized a massive state work project.

埃及各地有很多人无所事事，没有真正做太多事情，所以法老组织了一个大规模的国家工作项目。

The pyramids were not built by slaves.

金字塔不是奴隶建造的。

There was a professional workforce, but you also needed a lot of very strong younger men to help move the blocks.

有一支专业的劳动力队伍，但也需要很多非常强壮的年轻人来帮助搬迁。

For the ancient Egyptians, it was service work.

对于古埃及人来说，这是服务工作。

It was like, I guess, an ancient WPA and a national works project.

我想，这就像一个古老的 WPA 和一个国家工程项目。

For them to go — you’re serving your pharaoh, but also, you’re getting choice cuts of beef.

为了让他们走——你不仅在为你的法老服务，而且还得到了精选的牛肉。

You’re living very well.

你生活得很好。

You’re eating well, you’re drinking well.

你吃得好，喝得好。

In essence, you’re paid, and you get to go back to your village and brag that you helped to build them.

从本质上讲，你得到了报酬，你可以回到你的村庄并吹嘘你帮助建造了它们。

They were moved by large numbers of people, and they would compete against each other, actually.

他们被很多人感动，他们实际上会互相竞争。

We have inscriptions inside the pyramids that make reference to the “‘Drunkards of Menkaure.” It was like an ancient sports team.

金字塔内有铭文提到“门卡拉的酒鬼”。这就像一支古老的运动队。

They would compete against each other to move blocks.

他们会互相竞争移动方块。

They moved them up ramps.

他们把它们搬上坡道。

We don’t know exactly, exactly how they were built.

我们并不确切地知道它们是如何建造的。

Was it a ramp mechanism around the exterior?

它是外部的坡道机制吗？

Was it a ramp mechanism that was just straight up and they put blocks up on one side?

这是一个直立的坡道机构，他们在一侧放置了方块吗？

We do have multiple ramps that are still in situ, so we have a pretty good sense of how they were built, and of course, construction changed over time.

我们确实有多个仍在原位的坡道，所以我们对它们的建造方式有很好的了解，当然，建筑随着时间的推移而改变。

As we apply new science, new scanning tools and technologies, we’re just going to continue to learn more.

当我们应用新的科学、新的扫描工具和技术时，我们将继续了解更多。

But they were built by amazing engineers and architects and by a lot of people, tens of thousands of people.

但它们是由出色的工程师和建筑师以及很多人、数以万计的人建造的。

It seems, based on a lot of the initial work that I’ve seen — and I was very lucky — one of my last trips before the pandemic started was going to Egypt for meetings with my colleagues, and a number of these coffins were on display at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, so I got to see them and read some of the inscriptions, and they’re just absolutely stunning.

看来，基于我所看到的许多初步工作——“而且我非常幸运”——“在大流行开始之前，我的最后一次旅行是去埃及与我的同事会面，开罗的埃及博物馆展出了许多这样的棺材，所以我看到了它们并阅读了一些铭文，它们绝对令人惊叹。

It seems like it was a burial for priests who were living and working around Saqqara.

看起来这是在萨卡拉周围生活和工作的牧师的墓地。

They dated to roughly 3,000 years ago, 2,500 years ago, this post–New Kingdom imperial age, into the Ptolemaic period, so a little bit later in time.

它们的年代可以追溯到大约 3,000 年前，也就是 2,500 年前，即后新王国帝国时代，进入托勒密时期，所以时间要晚一些。

We’re going to learn about religious practices, about their relationships.

我们将了解宗教习俗及其关系。

I’m sure a lot of the mummies and coffins will end up getting CAT scans, so we’ll be able to learn about disease and how old were they when they died?

我确信很多木乃伊和棺材最终都会接受 CAT 扫描，这样我们就能够了解疾病以及他们去世时的年龄？

What was their diet like?

他们的饮食是什么样的？

Were they eating better than the average population, these mostly men in their — I don’t know — 50s, 60s?

他们的饮食是否比普通人（这些人大多是“我不知道”——“50 多岁、60 多岁”的男性）吃得更好？

Were there women?

有女人吗？

Are there women that are buried there?

那里埋着女人吗？

Are they related to each other?

它们彼此有关联吗？

We’re able to really get a much better picture about religion and the types of people that would’ve worked in temples.

我们能够真正更好地了解宗教以及在寺庙工作的人员类型。

There’s a lot we can get from them.

我们可以从他们那里得到很多东西。

On ancient beliefs

关于古老的信仰

You needed these grave goods to essentially allow you to keep living your life after death, and in particular, if you were a wealthy person, from the time you were a young adult, you would have begun preparing your burial.

你需要这些随葬品，本质上是为了让你死后继续生活，特别是如果你是一个富有的人，从你年轻的时候起，你就会开始准备你的葬礼。

Only the most wealthy, most elite could afford very high-end tombs.

只有最富有、最精英的人才能买得起非常高端的坟墓。

Most people would have been buried in simple graves, maybe cut shallowly into the bedrock or in sand.

大多数人会被埋在简单的坟墓中，可能浅入基岩或沙子中。

It’s interesting, the archaeological site where I work at Lisht, which dates to about 3,800 years ago, 1800 BC, we find a full range of burials — everything from the most elite down to probably lower, lower-middle-class burials, and even the lower-middle-class individuals still would have been buried with something.

有趣的是，我在利什特工作的考古遗址，可以追溯到大约 3800 年前，即公元前 1800 年，我们发现了各种各样的墓葬——从最精英的墓葬到可能较低的中下阶层的墓葬，甚至中下阶层的人也可能会埋葬一些东西。

It was to prepare you for the afterlife.

这是为了让你为来世做好准备。

But for the ancient Egyptians, their religion was their entire worldview.

但对于古埃及人来说，他们的宗教就是他们的整个世界观。

It’s how they interacted with their world.

这就是他们与世界互动的方式。

The wind wasn’t the wind.

风不是风。

It was the god Shu touching them.

是蜀神在触碰他们。

The Nile wasn’t the Nile.

尼罗河不再是尼罗河。

It was the god Hapi.

那是哈皮神。

So, if we think of their religion, in some ways, as their science and how they understood the changes in the world around them, I think that’s how we can better understand why they did what they did and why they believed what they believed.

因此，如果我们在某种程度上将他们的宗教视为他们的科学以及他们如何理解周围世界的变化，我认为这就是我们如何能够更好地理解他们为什么要做他们所做的事情以及为什么他们相信他们所相信的事情。

They believed this stuff, and so for them, they genuinely believed that when they died, these things, or the spirits within these things, would accompany them to the afterlife.

他们相信这些东西，所以对他们来说，他们真诚地相信，当他们死后，这些东西，或者这些东西里的灵魂，会陪伴他们到来世。

It wasn’t just about building a tomb and putting goods in it.

这不仅仅是建造一座坟墓并将物品放入其中。

That was just one step.

这只是第一步。

You needed to make sure that during your life, you married and you had children so that, in particular, your sons could carry on rituals.

你需要确保在你的一生中你结婚生子，以便你的儿子们能够继续举行仪式。

They could carry on making offerings to your spirit in the afterlife.

他们可以在来世继续向你的灵魂供奉。

That was really important, so for a lot of these tombs, especially at sites like Lisht, we find shrines so people could come.

这非常重要，因此对于很多坟墓，尤其是在利什特这样的遗址，我们找到了神殿，以便人们可以前来。

Think of it like a Mexican Day of the Dead.

把它想象成墨西哥的亡灵节。

Your family could come and picnic and make offerings.

你的家人可以来野餐并供养。

That was just as important as the grave goods.

这和陪葬品一样重要。

Atlantis was a myth.

亚特兰蒂斯是一个神话。

It was invented by Plato.

它是柏拉图发明的。

It was meant to serve as a lesson.

它的目的是作为一个教训。

If you read the text in that way, he’s trying to pass on a lesson to his students.

如果你以这种方式阅读课文，他正试图向他的学生传授一课。

Look at this immoral society.

看看这个不道德的社会。

Look at what could have happened now.

看看现在可能发生什么。

It was probably loosely based on Santorini.

它可能大致是基于圣托里尼岛。

Plato certainly would have been aware of Santorini and what happened with the eruption, so I think you could loosely say, yes, it’s Santorini-ish.

柏拉图当然会知道圣托里尼岛以及火山喷发所发生的事情，所以我认为你可以宽松地说，是的，这是圣托里尼岛式的。

The site of Akrotiri, this great volcanic explosion that impacted the archaeology of not just that island and Thera, but the whole region.

阿克罗蒂里遗址，这场巨大的火山爆发不仅影响了该岛和锡拉岛的考古学，还影响了整个地区。

Yes, people are looking for it, but I keep telling people, “You need to stop.

是的，人们正在寻找它，但我一直告诉人们，“你需要停下来。

It doesn’t really exist.

它并不真正存在。

It’s just a figment of someone’s imagination.”

这只是某人的想象而已。”

On new discoveries

关于新发现

It’s amazing to think that, for example, in the time of Cleopatra, there was contact between Egypt and India.

令人惊奇的是，例如，在克利奥帕特拉时代，埃及和印度之间就存在接触。

We know this because there are archaeological sites along the Red Sea coast, in particular the site of Berenike, where we know for sure, there’s archaeological evidence of this long-distance trade.

我们知道这一点是因为红海沿岸有考古遗址，特别是贝雷尼克遗址，我们确信那里有这种长途贸易的考古证据。

Certainly, as more and more tools and techniques and technologies keep being applied, we’re going to find out more about how far people were able to go.

当然，随着越来越多的工具、技术和技术的不断应用，我们将更多地了解人们能够走多远。

The Phoenicians did not make it all the way to America, that definitely did not happen —

腓尼基人并没有一路到达美洲，这绝对没有发生 ——

For example, I’ve dipped my toe in the Viking world, and I certainly think over time, we are going to find more evidence for the Vikings, certainly.

例如，我已经涉足维京世界，我当然认为随着时间的推移，我们肯定会找到更多关于维京人的证据。

I think they made it down to New England.

我认为他们到达了新英格兰。

I don’t think that’s too implausible.

我认为这不太难以置信。

They weren’t that far away in Newfoundland.

他们在纽芬兰并不遥远。

Also, we have evidence of a Viking coin that was found at a site in Maine.

此外，我们还有在缅因州某个地点发现的维京硬币的证据。

Did it mean that the Vikings made it to Maine?

这是否意味着维京人到达了缅因州？

Could it have been long-distance trade?

难道是长途贸易？

Who knows?

谁知道？

I certainly think they would have explored.

我当然认为他们会探索。

Yes, the Phoenicians, certainly very well known for sailing around the Mediterranean, but how far they actually got — that just depends on the archaeological data.

是的，腓尼基人确实以环绕地中海航行而闻名，但他们实际上走了多远——这仅取决于考古数据。

There’s a lot of papyrus, a lot of scrolls that were reused over time, and through this scanning, we’re able to see new sections of stories, or maybe stories from the Bible or older versions of stories from the Bible.

有很多纸莎草，很多随着时间的推移被重复使用的卷轴，通过这种扫描，我们能够看到故事的新部分，或者可能是圣经中的故事或圣经中旧版本的故事。

Also, there are massive, massive manuscript collections in Iraq, in Syria and Afghanistan, in Egypt and so many other places that have never been fully examined.

此外，伊拉克、叙利亚、阿富汗、埃及和许多其他地方还藏有大量从未被充分检验过的手稿。

There are hundreds of thousands, millions of manuscripts from these places, and people are archivists, and they go, they study them and they scan them.

这些地方有数十万、数百万份手稿，人们是档案管理员，他们去研究、扫描它们。

These have not been digitized.

这些还没有被数字化。

It’s one of the urgent, urgent projects because so many of these manuscript collections were burned by entities like ISIL.

这是非常非常紧急的项目之一，因为许多手稿收藏都被“伊斯兰国”等实体烧毁了。

Alongside the archaeological discoveries we make in the ground, which in some cases may include manuscripts, I think one of the great unexplored treasure troves of the world are these manuscript archives where who knows what we’ll find there?

除了我们在地下进行的考古发现（在某些情况下可能还包括手稿）之外，我认为世界上最伟大的未开发宝库之一就是这些手稿档案馆，谁知道我们会在那里找到什么？

On the need for conservation

论保护的必要性

I think when archaeologists go into the field, they don’t pair conservation alongside excavation.

我认为当考古学家进入该领域时，他们不会将保护与挖掘结合起来。

In other words, they’ll dig, and then whatever they’ve excavated, they won’t protect, or they won’t solidify, or they won’t take the necessary steps to make sure that whatever they’ve excavated — and this isn’t in every case, by the way, but in a lot of cases, and especially from 100 years ago and up to maybe 25 years ago when this wasn’t as much of a priority — these things were left exposed to the elements, so a lot of these amazing discoveries from a long time ago are exposed to the elements.

换句话说，他们会挖掘，然后无论他们挖掘出什么，他们都不会保护，或者他们不会固化，或者他们不会采取必要的步骤来确保他们挖掘出的任何东西  - 顺便说一句，这并不是在所有情况下，而是在很多情况下，尤其是从100年前到也许25年前，当时这并不是那么重要  - 这些事物都暴露在自然环境中，所以很久以前的许多令人惊奇的发现都暴露在自然环境中。

You look at archaeological sites like Pompeii, where the ministry in Italy responsible for its conservation — they’ve been chronically underfunded.

你看看像庞贝古城这样的考古遗址，意大利负责其保护的部门——他们长期资金不足。

I’ve heard there are potential connections to Mafia, lots of corruption.

我听说这里与黑手党有潜在的联系，有很多腐败现象。

A lot of these amazing houses are almost falling down.

许多这些令人惊叹的房子都快要倒塌了。

I think conservation and protecting sites needs to be funded as much as new discoveries.

我认为保护和保护遗址需要与新发现一样多的资金。

And it’s not just Italy — this is an issue all over the world.

这不仅仅是意大利——这是全世界的一个问题。

The local communities living on these sites or next to them are essential.

居住在这些地点或附近的当地社区至关重要。

Community archaeology is a really, really important part of the field of archaeology.

社区考古学是考古学领域非常非常重要的一部分。

First and foremost, when we excavate in the field, we’re anthropologists.

首先，当我们在野外挖掘时，我们是人类学家。

We’re cultural anthropologists, so you have to speak the local language.

我们是文化人类学家，所以你必须说当地语言。

I speak Arabic.

我说阿拉伯语。

I’m not completely fluent, but I know enough.

我不是很流利，但我已经足够了解了。

I’m certainly fluent in Egyptian culture.

我当然熟悉埃及文化。

All my workforce is Egyptian.

我所有的劳动力都是埃及人。

My core staff — it’s a joint mission with the Ministry of Antiquities, so it means that I have an Egyptian co-director, and you have to have really close working relationships with local villagers because, ultimately, they’re the ones who are the stewards and guardians of these sites, and they’ve, in many cases, never had a chance to connect with these places, and there’s a lot of economic opportunity there, so I think we have to tread very carefully.

我的核心人员 ——这是与古物部的联合任务，所以这意味着我有一位埃及联合主任，你必须与当地村民有非常密切的工作关系，因为归根结底，他们是这些遗址的管理者和监护人，而且在很多情况下，他们从来没有机会与这些地方建立联系，而那里有很多经济机会，所以我认为我们必须非常小心地行事。

In a lot of instances, the people who are living on or next to sites are related to the people who lived there thousands of years ago.

在很多情况下，居住在遗址上或附近的人与几千年前居住在那里的人有亲戚关系。

As inconvenient as it might be that their houses are there, these are human beings, and they’ve lived in these places for a very, very long time.

尽管他们的房子在那里可能会很不方便，但他们是人，他们已经在这些地方生活了非常非常长的时间。

How do you deal with these situations sensitively?

您如何敏感地处理这些情况？

We’re having a lot of really difficult conversations right now.

我们现在正在进行很多非常困难的对话。

Certainly, in Egypt and Luxor and the village that was on top of a lot of the tombs of the New Kingdom — the Egyptian government basically evicted the folks who were living there.

当然，在埃及和卢克索以及新王国许多坟墓顶上的村庄，埃及政府基本上驱逐了居住在那里的人们。

A lot of the tombs had been damaged, and now they’re conserving the tombs.

很多坟墓都被破坏了，现在他们正在保护坟墓。

That’s a decision that the Ministry of Antiquities in the Egyptian government made.

这是埃及政府文物部做出的决定。

There were a lot of protests.

引起了很多抗议。

I’m not in a position, I feel like, to criticize what they did.

我觉得我没有资格批评他们的所作所为。

It happened.

它发生了。

That was a decision they made.

这是他们做出的决定。

They felt it was best for their own heritage, and we have to listen very carefully to foreign governments in places where we work.

他们认为这对他们自己的遗产来说是最好的，我们必须非常仔细地听取我们工作地点的外国政府的意见。

Yes, this is a problem all over the world.

是的，这是全世界都存在的问题。

What do we do?

我们该怎么办？

Do you just evict families with kids?

你只是驱逐有孩子的家庭吗？

And these communities — that’s the other important thing.

这些社区 ——这是另一件重要的事情。

These are communities, and they’re not all stealing from these sites.

这些都是社区，他们并不都从这些网站上偷东西。

They just happen to live there.

他们只是碰巧住在那里。

This is a big question, one that I think we’ll be dealing with for the next hundred or more years.

这是一个大问题，我认为我们将在未来一百年或更长的时间内处理这个问题。

On looting

关于抢劫

I would say economic development and encroachment.

我想说的是经济发展和侵占。

It’s not particularly sexy at all.

它一点也不特别性感。

It bores people.

它让人厌烦。

People want to hear stories of looting because encroachment is much more difficult.

人们希望听到抢劫的故事，因为侵占要困难得多。

If you look at archaeological sites in Egypt, in Peru, in China, in India — all over the world — there simply aren’t as many places for people to live, and so a big open site .

如果你看看埃及、秘鲁、中国、印度——全世界——的考古遗址，就会发现根本没有那么多地方可供人们居住，所以只有一个大的开放遗址。

.

。

.

。

Or maybe their village is close by, and it’s easy to expand.

或者也许他们的村庄就在附近，很容易扩张。

The other issue, of course, is where do you bury your dead?

当然，另一个问题是你把死者埋在哪里？

A lot of governments don’t have good plans for that, so of course, they encroach upon these sites.

许多政府对此没有良好的计划，所以他们当然会侵占这些网站。

There’s unchecked development around the world.

世界各地的发展不受限制。

Certainly, in places like Central Asia, this is a huge problem.

当然，在中亚这样的地方，这是一个大问题。

With new pipelines being put in, with cities expanding — and in so many cases, there’s not good documentation of archaeological sites.

随着新管道的投入、城市的扩张，在很多情况下，考古遗址都没有很好的记录。

I’d say encroachment and economic development.

我想说的是侵占和经济发展。

And why do we need to grow 10 percent or 20 percent every year?

为什么我们需要每年增长 10% 或 20%？

This ties into much greater questions around globalization and global development.

这与全球化和全球发展的更大问题有关。

You have to think of archaeological sites in some ways like community piggy banks.

你必须以某种方式来思考考古遗址，就像社区存钱罐一样。

It’s not like local people are out digging every day, robbing the site down to nothing.

当地人并不是每天都在外面挖掘，把遗址抢得一文不值。

They’ll tap it every now and then.

他们会时不时地点击它。

Someone needs surgery, someone needs to go to school.

有人需要手术，有人需要上学。

It’s like a gig income.

这就像一份零工收入。

Post–Arab Spring, the village or villagers would organize into collective groups, and not just there — all over Egypt.

后“阿拉伯之春”时期，村庄或村民会组织成集体团体，而且不仅仅是在埃及各地。

This is how things work across the Middle East.

这就是整个中东地区的运作方式。

They’d organize collectively.

他们会集体组织起来。

They’d go loot a tomb.

他们会去抢劫一座坟墓。

They’ll find whatever they find, and then they’ll split the proceeds.

他们会找到他们找到的任何东西，然后他们会分享收益。

That’s a very different kind of looting than someone comes from Cairo via a dealer in Jordan, via a dealer in Dubai, via a dealer in Paris or a dealer in New York, and they’ve specifically said, “We want X, Y, and Z objects from these types of sites.” Someone will come to the village and say, “I will pay each of you $20 a night to go loot.” That’s very different.

这是一种非常不同的抢劫方式，与来自开罗的通过约旦经销商、迪拜经销商、巴黎经销商或纽约经销商进行的抢劫不同，他们特别表示，“我们想要来自这些类型网站的 X、Y 和 Z 物品。”有人会来到村子里说：“我付给你们每人每晚 20 美元，让你们去抢劫。”那是非常不同的。

They work much faster.

他们工作得更快。

It’s very dangerous.

这是非常危险的。

They could loot a tomb in a night, and these are people that dig down 40 or 50 feet into a shaft tomb.

他们可以在一夜之间洗劫一座坟墓，而这些人会往地下挖掘 40 或 50 英尺的竖井坟墓。

Again, we have to understand the kinds of looting that are happening in different places in the world.

同样，我们必须了解世界不同地方正在发生的抢劫类型。

People loot because they need money.

人们抢劫是因为他们需要钱。

It’s not a black or a white issue.

这不是一个非黑即白的问题。

Villagers aren’t getting rich off of this stuff.

村民们并没有靠这些东西致富。

It’s the collectors; it’s the middlemen.

是收藏家；是中间商。

It’s much bigger questions around shutting down trade and understanding networks.

这是关于关闭贸易和理解网络的更大问题。

It’s very similar to the international wildlife trade or gunrunning or money laundering.

这与国际野生动物贸易、军火走私或洗钱非常相似。

It’s all connected.

一切都是相连的。

They seemed really quite unsentimental about that decision.

他们对于这个决定似乎真的很冷静。

If anything, there was a slight fear that if they kept the pyramid around, it might attract interest from the outside world, which they didn’t want, viewing the outside Mexican police and governance as forces that would take resources from them.

如果说有什么不同的话，那就是他们有点担心，如果他们保留金字塔，可能会吸引外界的兴趣，而这是他们不希望的，他们将外部的墨西哥警察和政府视为会从他们那里夺取资源的力量。

Should I have tried to talk them out of that decision?

我应该尝试说服他们放弃这个决定吗？

Or should I have just been gung ho?

或者我应该干劲十足？

“Yes, sorry, all you people, but this is the best thing for you to do.”

“是的，对不起，大家，但这对你们来说是最好的选择。”

For example, with all the work I’ve done with mapping looting around archaeological sites in Egypt — I’ve shared all that information with the government of Egypt, and at that point, I’m done.

例如，我在绘制埃及考古遗址周围的抢劫地图方面所做的所有工作 ——我已经与埃及政府分享了所有这些信息，到那时，我就完成了。

I can advocate.

我可以倡导。

I can try to be an ally.

我可以尝试成为盟友。

I can try to talk to them about best practices or things to be thinking about.

我可以尝试与他们讨论最佳实践或需要考虑的事情。

But ultimately, it’s the governments in these places that are responsible for protecting the sites — or not.

但最终，这些地方的政府有责任保护这些遗址——或者不负责。

There is, as you know, massive corruption around the world, and if a wealthy local landowner wanted that plaza or that pyramid to build whatever, and they pay a bribe of $1,000 or $10,000 or whatever it is, that thing’s gone.

如你所知，世界各地存在大规模腐败现象，如果当地富有的地主想要那个广场或金字塔建造任何东西，并且他们支付了 1,000 美元或 10,000 美元或其他任何东西的贿赂，那么事情就消失了。

We have to look at the incentives around who’s paying for destruction to happen and the value of that thing in the community.

我们必须考虑谁为破坏行为买单的激励因素以及该事物在社区中的价值。

Flip it around.

把它翻转过来。

There have been a lot of instances where archaeological sites all over the world have been threatened — or cultural sites — and the local communities have risen up and protested and protected the site.

世界各地的考古遗址或文化遗址受到威胁的例子有很多，当地社区纷纷起来抗议并保护遗址。

I think this is more about empowering local communities and getting them to understand that they’re the stewards.

我认为这更多的是赋予当地社区权力，让他们明白他们是管理者。

They’re the guardians because in so many countries there aren’t enough archaeologists, right?

他们是守护者，因为在很多国家都没有足够的考古学家，对吗？

The arts and culture are chronically underfunded all around the world.

世界各地的艺术和文化长期资金不足。

They’re only a fraction of a percent of most countries’ budgets, so people feel disconnected from their history.

它们只占大多数国家预算的一小部分，因此人们感觉与自己的历史脱节。

How do we change the global dialogue around the value of archaeology and history, and empower communities to want to protect their histories and show them how they’re connected to it?

我们如何改变围绕考古学和历史价值的全球对话，并使社区有能力保护他们的历史并向他们展示他们如何与历史联系在一起？

On the inherent political entanglements in archeology

论考古学中固有的政治纠葛

If one is an archaeologist, helping to dig up that past, should you seek in any way to control either the goods or the message of how those outputs are then translated into arguments about the current day?

如果一个人是一名考古学家，帮助挖掘过去，你是否应该寻求以任何方式控制货物或如何将这些产出转化为有关当今时代的论点的信息？

Just a very recent example from the January 6th insurrection, we saw people dressed up as Viking-esque, indigenous cosplayers.

这是 1 月 6 日起义中最近的一个例子，我们看到人们打扮成维京人式的土著角色扮演者。

Symbols from the Vikings and from the classical world have been co-opted by far-right extremist groups for years and years and years.

多年来，来自维京人和古典世界的符号一直被极右极端主义团体所采用。

We see it here in our own country, certainly around the world — concepts of ownership.

我们在自己的国家看到了这一点，当然在世界各地也看到了这一点——所有权概念。

Who came to a place first?

谁先到一个地方？

Who has the right to be living in this place?

谁有权利居住在这个地方？

Governments will use discoveries from archaeological sites to prove that “Oh, we’re older.

政府将利用考古遗址的发现来证明“哦，我们更老了。

We’re better.” Or “This particular religious group was here first.

我们更好了。”或者“这个特定的宗教团体首先来到这里。

Hence, we have a right to commit these atrocities or erase these peoples.”

因此，我们有权犯下这些暴行或消灭这些人民。”

We see this everywhere.

我们随处可见这种情况。

We see this all over the world.

我们在世界各地都看到这种情况。

Oftentimes, archaeologists will find themselves caught up in political controversies, and they’re like, “Hey, I’m just digging up the site.

通常，考古学家会发现自己陷入了政治争议，他们会说：“嘿，我只是在挖掘这个遗址。

Why are you bothering me?”

你为什么来烦我？”

Look at what’s happened in England.

看看英国发生了什么。

In the last few days, the government’s come out with a very strong statement against academics and museums, saying, “You can’t erase our glorious past.” And everyone is saying, “Wait a minute, our past is problematic.

过去几天，政府针对学术界和博物馆发表了非常强烈的声明，称“你们无法抹去我们辉煌的过去”。每个人都在说：“等一下，我们的过去是有问题的。

We teach about who we are because we were founded on these colonialist ideals.” You can’t just erase what happened, and yet we’re having these dialogues.

我们教导我们是谁，因为我们是建立在这些殖民主义理想的基础上的。”你无法抹去所发生的事情，但我们正在进行这些对话。

Yes, this is a huge issue everywhere we work, and we have to be careful because I and my colleagues only are able to work in these places because of the permits and permissions from these governments.

是的，这在我们工作的任何地方都是一个大问题，我们必须小心，因为我和我的同事只有在获得这些政府的许可和许可后才能在这些地方工作。

While I may have very strong feelings about things that are happening in particular places, if I speak out against them or take a side, then that government will say, “See you later.”

虽然我可能对特定地方正在发生的事情有非常强烈的感觉，但如果我公开反对他们或站在一边，那么政府会说，“再见。”

So we’re always balancing good versus harm.

因此，我们总是在善与恶之间进行权衡。

What is the good that I can do by continuing my work in this place, to be an advocate for heritage, and to educate and empower all these local communities and all these people?

通过继续在这个地方工作，成为遗产的倡导者，并教育和赋权所有这些当地社区和所有这些人，我能做些什么好处呢？

Because they’re the ones ultimately that are going to be the stewards.

因为他们最终将成为管家。

I’ll lose my power to do that if I say something.

如果我说了什么，我就会失去这样做的权力。

So empowering in itself, and training and educating and doing the outreach — that’s the radical work of what we do.

因此，授权本身、培训、教育和外展——这就是我们所做的根本性工作。

Ultimately, it’s up to the people who live in these places.

最终，这取决于居住在这些地方的人们。

But yes, this is a real thorny issue and one we’re going to be hearing about again and again, of course, with the rise of nationalism around the world.

但是，是的，这是一个真正棘手的问题，当然，随着世界各地民族主义的兴起，我们将一次又一次听到这个问题。

Say you’ve discovered natural resources while you’re doing a satellite search.

假设您在进行卫星搜索时发现了自然资源。

There could be a national security issue.

可能存在国家安全问题。

Are we getting that right, currently?

目前我们做对了吗？

Or is there some way we could improve the allocation of those rights?

或者我们有什么方法可以改善这些权利的分配？

First of all, when you ask for permission to work in a place you’re negotiating, “Okay, I’d like to do things A through G.” The government may turn around and “Okay, you can do A through D, and if you do them well, you can do E and F next year.

首先，当你请求在你正在谈判的地方工作的许可时，“好吧，我想做 A 到 G 件事。”政府可能会转身说：“好吧，你可以做 A 到 D，如果你做得好，你明年就可以做 E 和 F。

Don’t even ever think about G — or maybe in the future.” There’s a negotiation to even do the work and process the fines or dig or survey or map or whatever you’re proposing to do.

甚至永远别想G ——或者将来。”甚至要进行谈判才能完成工作并处理罚款或挖掘或调查或绘制地图或任何您打算做的事情。

You’re also negotiating with your colleagues over rights to publish.

您还正在与同事就发布权进行谈判。

You certainly have the right to publish your research, but ultimately, who owns that data?

你当然有权发表你的研究，但最终，谁拥有这些数据？

Just as an example, in Egypt, it is illegal for a foreigner working in Egypt to make a major announcement about their discovery.

举个例子，在埃及，在埃及工作的外国人发布有关他们的发现的重大公告是违法的。

The Egyptian government is the one that has to make that announcement.

埃及政府是必须宣布这一消息的政府。

Now, obviously you can show pictures from your sites — that’s fine.

现在，显然您可以显示您网站上的图片 — 这很好。

You can show ongoing pictures of work.

您可以展示正在进行的工作图片。

But if you do make a major discovery of a tomb, the government of Egypt has that right.

但如果你确实发现了一座坟墓的重大发现，埃及政府就有这个权利。

Of course they do.

当然有。

This is their heritage.

这是他们的遗产。

And the rules are similar in other places.

其他地方的规则也类似。

We have to respect the laws.

我们必须尊重法律。

Otherwise, we won’t get the ability to work.

否则，我们就没有工作的能力。

But sometimes you do end up making an amazing discovery randomly.

但有时你确实会随机地做出惊人的发现。

Years and years ago, when we were doing survey work in Sinai, we ended up finding a dinosaur.

许多年前，当我们在西奈半岛进行调查工作时，我们最终发现了一只恐龙。

I always get asked, “Oh, archaeologists — don’t you do dinosaurs?” I’m like, “No, but actually yes, kind of.” That was wild.

我总是被问到，“哦，考古学家 ——你不研究恐龙吗？”我想，“不，但实际上是的，有点。”那太疯狂了。

Who finds a dinosaur?

谁发现了恐龙？

It was actually a mosasaur.

它实际上是一只沧龙。

I think my eight-year-old son could tell you much more about the mosasaur than I could.

我认为我八岁的儿子可以比我告诉你更多关于沧龙的知识。

I don’t really do dinosaurs.

我真的不做恐龙。

Apologies to my colleagues who are listening right now who do.

向现在正在倾听的同事们表示歉意。

Of course, we turned over that information immediately to the local university, and we let the government know.

当然，我们立即将这些信息转交给当地大学，并让政府知道。

You can make unexpected finds.

你可能会有意想不到的发现。

You just have to follow the rules in that country.

您只需遵守该国家/地区的规则即可。

Yeah, a lot of issues now around intellectual property at universities.

是的，现在大学里有很多关于知识产权的问题。

Who owns this data?

谁拥有这些数据？

How is it being used?

它的使用情况如何？

Is it being monetized?

它被货币化了吗？

Again, these are complicated questions.

同样，这些都是复杂的问题。

On things under- and overrated

关于被低估和高估的事情

The stews and the most amazing rosewater-infused pastries — I am getting hangry right now, thinking about it.

炖菜和最美味的玫瑰水糕点 — 我现在想想就饿了。

We get our food at Lisht made by these amazing local women, and my dig team complains because they always put on weight, the food is so good.

我们在利什特得到的食物是由这些令人惊叹的当地妇女制作的，我的挖掘团队抱怨说，因为她们总是发胖，但食物却太好了。

Totally underrated.

完全被低估了。

Anyone listening, go to your local Egyptian restaurant.

任何听听的人，请前往当地的埃及餐厅。

You will thank me.

你会感谢我的。

Even the scene at the end where they’re all backfilling — they got it right.

即使最后他们都在回填的场景——他们也做对了。

They really got it right.

他们确实做对了。

It shows what a dig is like, and also all the drama that happens around an excavation season.

它展示了挖掘是什么样的，以及挖掘季节周围发生的所有戏剧性事件。

Not necessarily in the backdrop of war — that’s not how we always dig, but certainly, the relationships, the complexities, how people are interacting with each other, the pressures from local authorities.

不一定是在战争背景下——这不是我们总是挖掘的方式，但肯定是关系、复杂性、人们如何互动以及来自地方当局的压力。

I think it’s one of the best archaeology movies that’s ever been done.

我认为这是有史以来最好的考古电影之一。

If you haven’t seen it yet, definitely go see it.

如果你还没看过，一定要去看看。

It’s done pretty well rating-wise, but I think underrated in the sense that not enough people know about it yet.

它在评级方面做得相当不错，但我认为它被低估了，因为还没有足够的人知道它。

How is it that you came to work on eastern equine encephalitis?

您是怎么开始从事东部马脑炎研究的？

I can’t remember — I feel like it was a long time ago, 12 years ago or so — there were some people who moved to UAB from another institution.

我不记得了 —— 感觉好像是很久以前的事了，大概12年前吧—— 有一些人是从其他机构转到UAB的。

They were specialists in the application of satellite imagery to mapping ancient diseases.

他们是应用卫星图像绘制古代疾病地图的专家。

I started working with them on projects.

我开始与他们合作开展项目。

Also, at the time, I was running a remote sensing lab, and I was mentoring and working with a number of PhD and master’s students from the School of Public Health, some from the School of Dentistry, some from biology.

另外，当时我正在管理一个遥感实验室，我正在指导和与公共卫生学院的一些博士生和硕士生一起工作，其中一些来自牙科学院，一些来自生物学。

They were interested in looking at environmental aspects impacting modern diseases.

他们对研究影响现代疾病的环境因素感兴趣。

So I collaborated with this team and looked at vegetation and how landscape changes over time — to your point earlier about economic development — on how changes to landscapes from growing populations impacted the growth of diseases and things like zoonoses, whether mosquitoes or other animals, that can pass on diseases, which of course we’re seeing today with the pandemic.

因此，我与这个团队合作，研究了植被以及景观如何随时间变化 —— 你之前提到的经济发展 —— 人口增长导致的景观变化如何影响疾病和人畜共患疾病的增长，无论是蚊子还是其他动物，它们都可以传播疾病，当然我们今天在大流行中看到了这种情况。

That’s how I ended up on a couple of public health publications, because of my remote sensing work.

由于我的遥感工作，这就是我最终发表了几篇公共卫生出版物的原因。

Obviously you can’t zoom in from hundreds of miles in space and see mosquitoes.

显然，你无法从数百英里外的太空放大看到蚊子。

That is ridiculous.

这太荒谬了。

Although, who knows?

虽然，谁知道呢？

Maybe someday, we will be.

也许有一天，我们会成为这样的人。

But you can see things like changes in water temperature, turbidity, vegetation, changes to chemicals and fertilizers that are being used on those water sources.

但您可以看到水温、浊度、植被的变化、这些水源所使用的化学品和肥料的变化等。

You can study rates of things like malaria or other diseases and compare it to changes you’re seeing in the landscape.

您可以研究疟疾或其他疾病的发生率，并将其与您在景观中看到的变化进行比较。

On touring Egypt and archeological sites around the world

关于游览埃及和世界各地的考古遗址

I love bird watching.

我喜欢观鸟。

I’m a bird nerd, so I love going off into more vegetated areas with my binoculars.

我是一个鸟类迷，所以我喜欢带着双筒望远镜进入植被较多的地区。

Certainly, going on the Nile — it’s much easier in Luxor and Aswan.

当然，沿着尼罗河前进——在卢克索和阿斯旺要容易得多。

There are obviously far less people.

人明显少了很多。

Early in the morning, I’ll go bird watching.

一大早，我就去观鸟。

It’s very peaceful.

非常平静。

You see extraordinary types of birds.

你会看到不同寻常的鸟类。

I love spending time in cafes with my Egyptian friends because you get to see the world go by.

我喜欢和我的埃及朋友一起在咖啡馆里度过时光，因为你可以看到世界的变化。

There are a couple of really famous cafes in the Khan el-Khalili market, which is the big tourist market that everyone goes to to buy their touristry schlock.

Khan el-Khalili 市场有几家非常有名的咖啡馆，这是一个很大的旅游市场，每个人都去那里购买旅游劣质产品。

There are a couple of cafes, and you go and sit, and you drink your mint tea.

有几家咖啡馆，你可以坐下来喝薄荷茶。

You smoke a shisha.

你抽水烟。

I don’t smoke except in Egypt.

除了埃及以外我不抽烟。

I love the bubbly pipes.

我喜欢起泡的管道。

My husband and mother are horrified that I do this in Egypt, but I can’t help it.

我的丈夫和母亲对我在埃及做的事感到震惊，但我无法控制。

It’s one of my little enjoyments.

这是我的小享受之一。

You just watch the world go by.

你只是看着世界过去。

You see every kind of person you can imagine.

你会遇到各种你能想象到的人。

People come up and try to sell you things.

人们过来试图向你推销东西。

You see crazy things.

你会看到疯狂的事情。

You have great conversation with your friends.

你和你的朋友聊得很开心。

Maybe you catch a game of backgammon, and you gossip.

也许你玩了双陆棋，然后就开始闲聊。

That’s incredibly pleasant.

这真是太令人愉快了。

As I mentioned before, I love Egyptian food.

正如我之前提到的，我喜欢埃及菜。

There are some of my favorite restaurants in different parts of Cairo.

开罗的不同地区有一些我最喜欢的餐馆。

I’ll go out with my friends, and we’ll have an incredible meal.

我会和我的朋友一起出去，我们会吃一顿令人难以置信的饭。

The lovely thing about Egyptian food is that it’s communal, so you’ll order maybe 15 or 20 different dishes.

埃及食物的可爱之处在于它是公共的，所以你可能会点 15 或 20 种不同的菜肴。

You’ll all have bites.

你们都会被咬。

You’re all trying things.

你们都在尝试。

You’re putting things together.

你正在把事情放在一起。

It’s a lot of fun.

这很有趣。

It’s like tapas.

就像小吃一样。

I love also music.

我也喜欢音乐。

You alluded to bluegrass guitar.

你提到了蓝草吉他。

I play guitar.

我弹吉他。

I love Egyptian music.

我喜欢埃及音乐。

There’s this wonderful instrument called an oud, like a short, squat stringed instrument.

有一种美妙的乐器叫做乌德琴，就像一种短而矮的弦乐器。

I love going to concerts if there are concerts on at diverse locations.

如果不同地点都有音乐会，我喜欢去听音乐会。

Egyptian singers are wonderful.

埃及歌手很棒。

Also, I love sailing on the Nile, so we’ll sometimes take a felucca or a boat.

另外，我喜欢在尼罗河上航行，所以我们有时会乘坐小帆船或小船。

Their dinner boats, especially in places like Luxor at night — it’s beautiful.

他们的晚餐船，尤其是在像卢克索这样的地方，晚上 ——非常美丽。

I do a lot of non-touristy things.

我做了很多非旅游的事情。

Also, there are amazing museums in Cairo that are not archaeological.

此外，开罗还有一些令人惊叹的非考古博物馆。

There are wonderful galleries that just display work by wonderful Egyptian modern artists, and I love going to those as well.

有一些很棒的画廊，展示了出色的埃及现代艺术家的作品，我也喜欢去那些画廊。

I would say, certainly, going to Tikal in Guatemala.

我想说，当然，去危地马拉的蒂卡尔。

That’s unbelievable, and everyone who’s seen the third Star Wars movie, you see the little temple sticking out from around the rainforest, and it’s amazing because you have this extraordinary Mayan site, and then you’re surrounded by beautiful rain forest, so go there first.

这是令人难以置信的，每个看过第三部《星球大战》电影的人都会看到这座小寺庙从雨林周围突出，这很神奇，因为你有这个非凡的玛雅遗址，然后你被美丽的雨林包围，所以先去那里。

Then fly down to Peru.

然后飞往秘鲁。

You’ve got to see Machu Picchu.

你一定要去看看马丘比丘。

I had the chance to see it a couple of years ago for the first time.

几年前我第一次有机会看到它。

I wasn’t prepared.

我没有准备好。

I’d seen pictures.

我看过照片。

My colleagues have told me about it, but the breathtaking awed majesty of where it’s situated, and just the fact that the world drops away around it, and it’s surrounded by mountains, and there’s this beautiful little town that the Inca built on top of a mountain.

我的同事告诉过我这件事，但它所处的位置令人惊叹，令人敬畏，事实上，它周围的世界逐渐消失，它被群山包围，还有印加人在山顶上建造的这座美丽的小镇。

It’s mind-blowing.

这真是令人兴奋。

I would say Stonehenge at solstice just because it’s worth seeing all the monks and everyone dressed up and the festivities.

我会说巨石阵在夏至只是因为它值得看到所有的僧侣和每个人盛装打扮和庆祝活动。

You get a sense of how that place would have been honored in antiquity, and it’s beautiful.

你会感觉到这个地方在古代会受到怎样的尊重，而且它很美丽。

Definitely Stonehenge.

绝对是巨石阵。

I would say you’ve got to hit Pompei and Herculaneum just because they’re so well preserved, and it’s like you are walking around an old European village or town, and you just get a sense of how people lived.

我想说，你一定要去庞贝和赫库兰尼姆，因为它们保存得如此完好，就像你在一个古老的欧洲村庄或城镇中漫步，你就能感受到人们的生活方式。

I would say — and this is going to jump around a bit geographically as I try to pick the top, top places — I would say Angkor Wat.

我会说 — 当我试图挑选最顶尖的地方时，这会在地理上有所跳跃 — 我会说吴哥窟。

It’s the only place I visited in the world, aside from the Vatican, where I got so overwhelmed, I had to sit and take a nap in situ because my eyes hurt.

这是我在世界上除了梵蒂冈之外唯一去过的地方，在那里我不知所措，我不得不坐在原地小睡，因为我的眼睛很痛。

There was too much for me to take in.

有太多的事情让我无法接受。

At Angkor, it’s not just one temple — it’s dozens and dozens of temples, and the Khmer — they carved every square inch of their temples with images of gods and goddesses and religious scenes.

在吴哥，它不仅仅是一座寺庙，还有数十座寺庙，高棉人在寺庙的每一寸土地上都雕刻着神灵和女神的图像以及宗教场景。

You don’t know where to look.

你不知道该去哪里寻找。

Everywhere you look is a perfect picture.

目光所及之处，都是一幅完美的图画。

So definitely Angkor and, obviously, the food and the culture as well.

所以肯定是吴哥，当然还有食物和文化。

The terracotta warriors of Xi’an.

西安兵马俑。

I cried when I visited them for the first time.

当我第一次拜访他们时，我哭了。

It’s so overwhelming to be there.

去那里真是太令人难以抗拒了。

I was there with a group of archaeologists, and we all just stood.

我和一群考古学家在那里，我们都只是站着。

There’s an energy to this place.

这个地方有一种能量。

I’m a scientist.

我是一名科学家。

I don’t believe in crystal goddesses and energy fields and all that stuff.

我不相信水晶女神和能量场之类的东西。

But there was such a presence to that place that I haven’t felt anywhere else in the world.

但那个地方的存在感是我在世界其他任何地方都没有感受到的。

We just stood for a half hour, unable to speak because it was so overwhelming.

我们就站了半个小时，无法说话，因为实在太难受了。

I’ve never been to Easter Island, although that’s next.

我从未去过复活节岛，尽管那是下一个。

As soon as the pandemic is over, we are going to Easter Island.

等疫情结束，我们就去复活节岛。

I have colleagues that work there, and we’re trading out a trip to Egypt for a trip to Easter Island.

我有同事在那里工作，我们打算放弃去埃及的旅行，而去复活节岛旅行。

Definitely hit Easter Island as well.

当然也去了复活节岛。

It’s beautiful and amazing.

它美丽而神奇。

I think that would probably take care of your month.

我想这可能会照顾你一个月的时间。

On pioneering technology

论先锋技术

Now you’re a pioneer with technology.

现在您是技术先驱。

Let me mention just a few technologies.

让我仅提及一些技术。

Tell me briefly what they are good for in archaeology.

简要告诉我它们在考古学上有什么用处。

Google Earth.

谷歌地球。

You can scan back and forth.

您可以来回扫描。

You can look at different times of year.

您可以查看一年中的不同时间。

Features will pop up.

功能将会弹出。

There’ve been thousands of discoveries made using Google Earth alone.

仅使用 Google 地球就已有数千项发现。

It’s a great starting point for looking at archaeological sites and the landscape surrounding them.

这是观赏考古遗址及其周围景观的绝佳起点。

You can, in effect, see everything that’s there.

实际上，您可以看到那里的一切。

My colleagues have used this to find tens of thousands of new features and sites in Central America and Cambodia and many, many other places in the world.

我的同事们使用它在中美洲和柬埔寨以及世界上许多其他地方找到了数以万计的新功能和站点。

It’s the only way to see through trees.

这是透过树木看东西的唯一方法。

Of course, we worry that this information is going to get out and going to get in the hands of people who could potentially misuse it.

当然，我们担心这些信息会泄露并落入可能滥用它的人手中。

A hundred percent yes, we definitely are finding things way faster than we can protect them.

百分百是的，我们发现事物的速度肯定比保护它们的速度要快。

That’s why archaeologists will often sit on their data because they don’t know what to do with it.

这就是为什么考古学家经常搁置他们的数据，因为他们不知道如何处理这些数据。

Governments — certainly Egypt — at the end of every season, we have to turn in a detailed report, a database of what we found.

各国政府——当然是埃及——在每个季节结束时，我们都必须提交一份详细的报告，一个我们发现的数据库。

Of course, that’s how archaeology works there.

当然，这就是考古学的工作原理。

Our colleagues at the Ministry of Antiquities are very well trained and are good at taking in this information, but it’s not necessarily that way everywhere in the world.

我们文物部的同事训练有素，善于吸收这些信息，但世界各地不一定都是这样。

Who has the right to publish?

谁有权利发表？

Who has the right to be first author?

谁有权利成为第一作者？

One of the things I worked really hard on in Archaeology from Space is, a third of the archaeologists that are mentioned in the book are indigenous archaeologists, and almost half are women.

我在《太空考古学》中真正努力的一件事是，书中提到的考古学家中有三分之一是土著考古学家，其中几乎一半是女性。

I could’ve very easily cited the archaeological remote sensing work of white European or American or Canadian men.

我可以很容易地引用欧洲、美国或加拿大白人的考古遥感工作。

I was very intentional in how I did that.

我是非常有意这么做的。

The idea that we can’t make space for individuals who are brilliant young archaeologists in our publications — something my colleagues and I are working on because they may not have the resources or the capabilities to pay a journal fee.

我们不能在我们的出版物中为才华横溢的年轻考古学家腾出空间，这是我和我的同事正在努力的事情，因为他们可能没有资源或能力支付期刊费用。

We need to be doing that for them.

我们需要为他们做这件事。

This goes beyond who owns the data, and it’s more, who are the people that get to be the storytellers?

这超出了谁拥有数据的范围，更重要的是，谁是讲故事的人？

Who gets to be first author?

谁能成为第一作者？

On the modern-day skill requirements as an archeologist

论现代考古学家的技能要求

We’ve all seen the funny memes online of the charts that look fancy but don’t mean anything, and anyone can interpret anything.

我们都在网上看到过一些有趣的图表，它们看起来很花哨，但没有任何意义，任何人都可以解释任何东西。

Just because there’s data and there’s numbers, doesn’t mean that there’s a conclusion.

仅仅因为有数据和数字，并不意味着就有结论。

Sometimes there’s data, and it’s a mess.

有时有数据，但很混乱。

It’s important to know stats really, really well for the work that I do and my colleagues do.

对于我和我的同事所做的工作来说，真正非常了解统计数据非常重要。

For all the measuring that we do, for all of the angles for measuring when we’re measuring in points.

对于我们所做的所有测量，对于我们以点为单位测量时测量的所有角度。

Yes, of course, there’s all these wonderful GPSs where you just ping it in the ground and it measures it for you, but we do a lot of things the old-school way, and sometimes your batteries run out, so you have to know geometry and trigonometry to be able to calculate things.

是的，当然，有很多很棒的 GPS，你只需在地面上 ping 它，它就会为你测量，但我们用老式的方式做很多事情，有时你的电池会耗尽，所以你必须了解几何和三角学才能计算东西。

You have to know archaeology, right?

你必须懂考古学，对吧？

You have to know history.

你必须了解历史。

You must have to know all kinds of physical techniques for unearthing materials without damaging them too much.

你必须了解各种物理技术来挖掘材料而不会对它们造成太大的损坏。

You need to know about data storage, and I could go on, and on, and on.

你需要了解数据存储，我可以继续说下去。

Hasn’t your job evolved to the point where you’re almost .

你的工作难道没有发展到你几乎现在这样的地步吗？

.

。

.

。

You need to know about technologies, right?

你需要了解技术，对吗？

For finding data from space — we talked about this before.

对于从太空寻找数据 ——我们之前讨论过这个。

That’s also not easy.

这也不容易。

Isn’t your job evolving to the point where, literally, no human can do it, and you’re the last in the line?

难道你的工作已经发展到没有人能胜任的地步，而你是最后一个吗？

I think I’m not special by a long shot.

我认为从长远来看我并不特别。

Every archaeologist is a specialist.

每个考古学家都是专家。

This archaeologist is a specialist in the pottery of this period of time, or does DNA, or excavates human remains — they’re bioarchaeologists — or they do computation.

这位考古学家是这一时期陶器方面的专家，或者是DNA方面的专家，或者是挖掘人类遗骸的专家——他们是生物考古学家——或者他们是进行计算的。

We all are specialists in a particular thing, but that’s really broad.

我们都是某一特定领域的专家，但范围非常广泛。

My unsexy, more academic term is landscape archaeologist, so I’m interested in ancient human-environment interaction, which encompasses a lot of different fields and subfields.

我的不性感、更学术的术语是景观考古学家，所以我对古代人类与环境的相互作用感兴趣，它涵盖了许多不同的领域和子领域。

I’ve taken many courses in geology.

我学过很多地质学课程。

All of us who study Egyptology — we do a lot of training in art history because, of course, the iconography and the art and the objects that we’re finding.

我们所有研究埃及学的人都接受了大量艺术史方面的培训，当然是因为我们发现了图像学、艺术和物品。

It takes a lot, but I would say most of the knowledge I’ve gotten is experiential.

这需要很多，但我想说我获得的大部分知识都是经验性的。

It’s from being in the field, I’ve visited hundreds of museums.

由于在现场，我参观了数百个博物馆。

I’ve spent countless hours in museum collections learning, touching objects.

我花了无数个小时在博物馆藏品中学习、触摸物品。

Yeah, it’s a lot, but it’s also the field of archaeology.

是的，很多，但这也是考古学领域。

That’s why so many people really love it — because you get to touch on so many different areas.

这就是为什么这么多人真正喜欢它 ——因为你可以接触到很多不同的领域。

I would never, for example, consider myself a specialist in bioarchaeology.

例如，我永远不会认为自己是生物考古学专家。

I know a tibia.

我认识一个胫骨。

When I find pitting on a skull, I know what that could potentially mean.

当我在头骨上发现凹坑时，我知道这可能意味着什么。

But also, I’m in a position now where I’m a dig director, so that means I’m in charge of a large group of humans, most of whom are far smarter, more capable than I am in whatever they’re doing.

而且，我现在的职位是挖掘总监，这意味着我负责一大群人，他们中的大多数人在他们所做的事情上都比我聪明得多，更有能力。

They’re specialists in pottery and bone, in rocks — project geologist — and conservation in art.

他们是陶器和骨骼、岩石——项目地质学家——以及艺术保护方面的专家。

We have project artists.

我们有项目艺术家。

We have specialists in excavation, and of course, there’s my very talented Egyptian team.

我们有挖掘专家，当然还有我非常有才华的埃及团队。

They’re excavating.

他们正在挖掘。

I’m probably a lot more of a manager now than I ever expected to be —

我现在可能比我想象的更像一名经理 ——

Again, every archaeologist who directs a project is the same as me.

再说一次，每一个指导项目的考古学家都和我一样。

I just happen to specialize in a form of technology.

我只是碰巧专注于某种技术。

And by the way, I feel like I’m drowning constantly.

顺便说一句，我感觉自己一直在溺水。

I can’t keep up.

我跟不上。

There are so many new satellites and sensors and tools and techniques and new programs, I get overwhelmed.

有如此多的新卫星、传感器、工具、技术和新程序，我不知所措。

I’m a mom.

我是一位妈妈。

I’m a busy professor.

我是一位忙碌的教授。

I have my students, so I’m constantly behind.

我有我的学生，所以我总是落后。

But again, my colleagues would tell you the same thing.

但我的同事们会再次告诉你同样的事情。

With the students I’ve mentored at my university — they do an introductory course, and then they do an advanced applications course.

我在大学指导过的学生——他们先学习入门课程，然后再学习高级应用课程。

After about year of taking these courses and really intensely working in a lab environment, then and only then, the students start feeling comfortable doing project work on their own.

经过大约一年的学习这些课程并在实验室环境中真正紧张地工作后，学生们才开始感到自己能够轻松地完成项目工作。

It takes a year of intensive training.

需要一年的强化训练。

This is one of the reasons I started my not-for-profit and our citizen archaeology platform because everyone is born an explorer.

这是我创办非营利性公民考古平台的原因之一，因为每个人都是天生的探险家。

Everyone is good at using their eyes or understanding the environment around them and making observational or cueing observation.

每个人都善于运用眼睛或了解周围的环境并进行观察或暗示观察。

This online citizen archaeology platform gives the world a chance to look at satellite images and help find sites and, ultimately, help scale the work that we’re doing.

这个在线公民考古平台让世界有机会查看卫星图像并帮助寻找遗址，并最终帮助扩大我们正在开展的工作。

I want to turn as many people around the world into space archaeologists.

我想把世界上尽可能多的人变成太空考古学家。

It’s fun.

这很有趣。

They can do it.

他们能做到。

They’re really good at it.

他们真的很擅长。

We need more eyes mapping these sites.

我们需要更多的眼睛来绘制这些地点的地图。

I would say that 100 percent of the emails I get from people in Scandinavia, whether it’s Denmark, Norway, or Sweden — in particular, Norway — people in Norway are really good at finding potential Viking ships in their fields.

我想说的是，我收到的电子邮件 100% 来自斯堪的纳维亚半岛的人们，无论是丹麦、挪威还是瑞典——尤其是挪威——挪威人非常擅长在他们的领域寻找潜在的维京船只。

It’s wild, and they’re always very polite and respectful.

这很狂野，而且他们总是非常有礼貌和尊重。

I’m delighted to get emails like that.

我很高兴收到这样的电子邮件。

I’m delighted to get emails from people anyway.

不管怎样，我很高兴收到人们发来的电子邮件。

It’s just always fun to see what people find.

看到人们发现了什么总是很有趣。

I’ve gotten a lot of really interesting findings from people in places like Italy.

我从意大利等地的人们那里得到了很多非常有趣的发现。

There’re so many villas of different periods of time that people find in fields or elsewhere.

人们在田野或其他地方发现了许多不同时期的别墅。

I get a lot of emails from, let’s just say, interesting individuals who are from America’s heartland, who spend a lot of time looking for things of a biblical nature, and 100 percent of the time, they send me snapshots of rocks.

我收到很多来自美国中心地带的有趣人士的电子邮件，他们花了很多时间寻找圣经性质的东西，而且 100％ 的情况下，他们给我发送了岩石的快照。

“Here’s this amazing ship.” “Here’s the lost city of whatever in Israel,” or wherever.

“这就是这艘神奇的船。” “这里是以色列任何地方的失落之城”，或者任何地方。

And you’re like, “You found some rocks, good job.” I don’t engage with them because it’s not always smart to do it.

你会说，“你找到了一些岩石，干得好。”我不与他们交往，因为这样做并不总是明智的。

But every now and then, I’ll get an email from someone who said, “Hey, I think I found something.” I’m like, “You actually did find something.

但时不时地，我会收到一封来自某人的电子邮件，他说：“嘿，我想我发现了一些东西。”我说：“你确实发现了一些东西。

I don’t have time to engage with you because my students come first, but yes, you found something.” I’d say half the time, it’s interesting, and half the time, it’s just part of the job.

我没有时间和你交流，因为我的学生是第一位的，但是，是的，你发现了一些东西。”我想说，一半的时候，这很有趣，一半的时候，这只是工作的一部分。

I think my parents recognized that I was good at pattern recognition.

我想我的父母认识到我擅长模式识别。

Everyone has diverse talents.

每个人都有不同的才能。

I always loved puzzles and games.

我一直喜欢拼图和游戏。

They always encouraged me.

他们总是鼓励我。

They always bought me, for my birthday and for holidays, fun magazines where I could test or try out this pattern recognition.

他们总是在我生日和假期时给我买有趣的杂志，我可以在其中测试或尝试这种模式识别。

When I started taking remote sensing classes, I got good at finding things.

当我开始上遥感课程时，我很擅长发现东西。

It’s part practice and part being good at pattern recognition, but also, there’s enormous luck.

这一部分是练习，一部分是善于模式识别，但也有巨大的运气。

I got very fortunate with where I went to grad school and, obviously, in landing an academic position.

我很幸运能在哪里读研究生，当然也能找到一个学术职位。

There’s enormous privilege in who I am and what I do, and I recognize that.

我是谁以及我所做的事情都具有巨大的特权，我认识到这一点。

I was able to get a scholarship to go to grad school.

我获得了去研究生院的奖学金。

I didn’t have an enormous amount of loans from college.

我没有从大学获得大量贷款。

We have to acknowledge all those things as well, given that moment in time that we’re in.

考虑到我们所处的那个时刻，我们也必须承认所有这些事情。

A lot of perseverance.

很大的毅力。

For a long time, when I first started out, I was known as “that satellite girl,” which is so problematic on so many levels.

很长一段时间，当我刚开始的时候，我被称为“那个卫星女孩”，这在很多层面上都是有问题的。

I persevered.

我坚持了下来。

So many of us have had issues with #MeToo.

我们很多人都对#MeToo 产生过疑问。

It’s a lot of dogged determination versus one person recognizing me.

与一个人认出我相比，这需要很大的毅力。

Then over time, too — if you had told me when I started off that I would be here now, I wouldn’t have believed you.

然后随着时间的推移，同样——如果你在我开始的时候告诉我我现在会在这里，我也不会相信你。

I’m very, very grateful for the position that I have and for the platform that I have.

我非常非常感谢我所拥有的职位和平台。

I’m in a position now where I want to spend the rest of my career giving back and empowering people.

我现在的处境是，我想用我余下的职业生涯来回馈人们并赋予他们权力。

It’s why I’m so passionate about the not-for-profit I run, GlobalXplorer.

这就是为什么我对我经营的非营利组织 GlobalXplorer 如此充满热情。

I want to use the tools and technologies that my team at GlobalXplorer and I have developed and use them to empower foreign governments to create platforms, and to allow people in those countries to help map and protect those archaeological sites.

我想利用我和 GlobalXplorer 团队开发的工具和技术，并利用它们来授权外国政府创建平台，并允许这些国家的人们帮助绘制和保护这些考古遗址。

Right now, our next big project for GlobalXplorer is building a new version of our Google Explore platform.

目前，我们 GlobalXplorer 的下一个大型项目正在构建新版本的 Google Explore 平台。

We’re going to have a machine learning component that will allow us to go much faster, and we have a big official partnership with the Ministry of Culture in India and the government of India, and we’re building this platform.

我们将拥有一个机器学习组件，让我们走得更快，我们与印度文化部和印度政府建立了重要的官方合作伙伴关系，我们正在构建这个平台。

We’re going to be launching it later this year, so everyone, stay tuned.

我们将于今年晚些时候推出，所以大家敬请期待。

It will allow millions of people from around the world to help map and protect archaeological sites.

它将让来自世界各地的数百万人帮助绘制地图和保护考古遗址。

That’s what I want to do.

这就是我想做的。

I spend a lot of time mentoring junior colleagues in archaeology and in the social sciences.

我花了很多时间指导考古学和社会科学领域的初级同事。

I’m also giving a lot more advice to cultural heritage bodies, to the US State Department with a lot of their heritage work.

我还向文化遗产机构、美国国务院的许多遗产工作提供了更多建议。

I’m working on some really interesting documentaries.

我正在制作一些非常有趣的纪录片。

There are some potential entertainment opportunities.

有一些潜在的娱乐机会。

I just want to use my voice to be an advocate for the past and to empower as many people as possible to be new voices.

我只是想用我的声音来倡导过去，并让尽可能多的人成为新的声音。

I’m tired of hearing my own voice.

我厌倦了听到自己的声音。

It’s time for other people to be voices, and they’re so many brilliant young academics, indigenous archaeologists, and specialists.

现在是其他人发出声音的时候了，他们中有很多才华横溢的年轻学者、土著考古学家和专家。

I want to use my platform to celebrate them and honor them and make sure that they’re the ones whose voices get heard now.

我想利用我的平台来庆祝他们、向他们致敬，并确保他们的声音现在能够被听到。

I’m happy to take a back seat and to let them speak instead of me.

我很高兴退居二线，让他们代替我发言。

It’s their turn.

轮到他们了。

Photo credit: Ian Curacio

照片来源：伊恩·库拉西奥