Russ Roberts on Israel and Life as an Immigrant (Ep. 141 - BONUS)

We’re going to do something a little unusual today.

今天我们要做一些不寻常的事情。

We’re going to talk about what it’s like to be an immigrant, using my move to Israel this year as a way to launch the conversation.

我们将讨论作为一名移民的感受，以我今年搬到以色列作为开始对话的方式。

As my listeners know, and to let listeners at Conversations with Tyler know, I came to Israel to be president of Shalem College, a small liberal arts college here in Jerusalem.

正如我的听众所知，也是为了让《与泰勒对话》的听众知道，我来到以色列担任沙勒姆学院的院长，这是耶路撒冷的一所小型文理学院。

Finally, I want to encourage EconTalk listeners to go to our homepage to vote on your favorite episodes of 2021.

最后，我想鼓励 EconTalk 听众前往我们的主页投票选出您最喜欢的 2021 年剧集。

Tyler, welcome back to EconTalk.

泰勒，欢迎回到 EconTalk。

In America, if you don’t take money from the government, you usually get less regulation, in turn.

在美国，如果你不从政府那里拿钱，你通常会受到更少的监管。

That is not the case here.

这里的情况并非如此。

The Council for Higher Education is extremely vigilant in making sure that we keep all of our promises.

高等教育委员会非常警惕，确保我们信守所有承诺。

They’re very, very detail oriented.

他们非常非常注重细节。

Number of toilets, I think, is regulated here per student.

我认为这里对每个学生的厕所数量进行了规定。

You can imagine starting a new major — we’ve got to get their approval, we have to provide the syllabi of all the classes that would be taught in the major, we have to show the faculty that would be teaching in the major, and we have to get a variety of committees to sign off on it.

你可以想象开始一个新的专业——我们必须得到他们的批准，我们必须提供该专业中将教授的所有课程的教学大纲，我们必须向将在该专业中教授的教师展示，我们必须得到各种委员会的批准。

To create a whole college is a major enterprise that people who came before me did all that lifting, heavy and light.

创建一所完整的大学是一项重大事业，我之前的人们承担了所有的重担和轻担。

In America, the challenge, of course, is both accreditation and reputation.

在美国，挑战当然是认证和声誉。

You’re in competition with existing — like any new entry, you have to compete with the existing competitors.

你正在与现有的竞争者竞争——就像任何新进入的公司一样，你必须与现有的竞争对手竞争。

In the case of a college, brand name’s extremely important in America, obviously.

就大学而言，品牌显然在美国极其重要。

People have emotional ties to colleges.

人们与大学有着情感联系。

I think there are very, very few new colleges that are at the highest level.

我认为最高水平的新大学非常非常少。

As you know, of course, University of Austin is aspiring to be one of those startups in America, but it’s not an easy task.

当然，如您所知，奥斯汀大学渴望成为美国的初创企业之一，但这并不是一件容易的事。

It’s hard to do.

这很难做到。

They have an energy and an openness that’s very refreshing.

他们充满活力和开放性，令人耳目一新。

The bluntness part, I don’t sense so much on their end.

直言不讳的是，我对他们的态度并没有太多的感觉。

In terms of the staff, it’s not really an issue; at least I haven’t experienced it.

就员工而言，这并不是什么问题；至少我没有经历过。

What I think it causes, though, is a certain hesitation, on my part, for interaction.

但我认为这导致了我对互动的某种犹豫。

I’ve got the language barrier.

我有语言障碍。

For the native Israelis here, I try to speak Hebrew with them to amuse them, and they’re very kind.

对于这里的以色列本地人，我试着和他们说希伯来语来逗他们开心，他们非常友善。

And then we typically end up speaking in English, if it’s anything substantive outside of, “How was your weekend?” They are very blunt and straightforward.

然后我们通常会用英语交谈，如果除了“你周末过得怎么样？”之外有什么实质性的内容的话。他们非常直率和直接。

I like it.

我喜欢它。

I’ve gotten used to it.

我已经习惯了。

It’s an enormous socializing experience here for the young people to go through that.

对于年轻人来说，这是一次巨大的社交体验。

It’s challenging, difficult, often physically difficult, and it permeates a lot of life here — in the way that there are certain networks of college, for example, in America or a private school system that you have a certain natural connection to the graduates.

它具有挑战性、困难性，通常在体力上也很困难，而且它渗透到这里的很多生活中——就像某些大学网络一样，例如在美国或私立学校系统中，你与毕业生有某种天然的联系。

Here in Israel, the unit you were in, the kind of unit you were in, the people that you were in that unit with, has a very powerful lifelong effect.

在以色列，你所在的单位、你所在的单位、与你同处的单位的人，都会对你的一生产生非常强大的影响。

It’s jarring often to an American who comes here.

对于来到这里的美国人来说，这常常是不舒服的。

There are a lot of people walking around with their Uzis, their automatic weapons.

有很多人拿着乌兹冲锋枪、自动武器走来走去。

First time you see that, it’s a little bit scary.

第一次看到这个，有点害怕。

Second time can be okay, you feel pretty — it’s comforting.

第二次就可以了，你感觉很漂亮——很舒服。

But it’s a part of life here, along with reserve duty and other — we have students here who miss the first three weeks of class because they had reserve duty, or they were on some project, and that’s intense.

但这是这里生活的一部分，还有预备役和其他——我们这里有学生因为有预备役或正在执行某个项目而错过了前三周的课程，这很紧张。

Just very alien to most Americans.

对于大多数美国人来说非常陌生。

I think it’s a big issue for the world.

我认为这对世界来说是一个大问题。

It’s going to be an incredible thing to see how this changes warfare in general.

看到这如何改变整个战争将是一件令人难以置信的事情。

But it’s a key part of Israel’s arsenal, obviously.

但显然，它是以色列武器库的关键部分。

They’ve been very successful in using cyberattacks to slow down Iran’s nuclear program, for example, because that’s the received wisdom.

例如，他们在利用网络攻击减缓伊朗核计划方面非常成功，因为这是公认的智慧。

The other part of the army that I think is fascinating is the age of the people in leadership positions.

我认为军队中另一个令人着迷的部分是担任领导职位的人的年龄。

Very early in their career, there are people in their mid-20s, early 20s who have the lives of 100 or more people in their hands, in their units.

在他们职业生涯的早期，有些人20多岁、20岁出头，他们的单位里掌握着100人或更多人的生命。

And it creates a different mentality here.

它在这里创造了一种不同的心态。

I can’t say I’ve sensed it personally, but that’s my impression.

我不能说我个人有这种感觉，但这是我的印象。

I don’t know what will happen.

我不知道会发生什么。

It’s a fascinating question, what will happen to Israeli social life if the army becomes less central, but right now that’s not the case.

这是一个有趣的问题，如果军队变得不再那么重要，以色列的社会生活将会发生什么，但现在情况并非如此。

It’s very central.

这是非常中心的。

Just as a logistics matter, it’s challenging.

就像物流问题一样，它具有挑战性。

I don’t have a very good feel for the newspapers world here, but newspapers are much more important than they are in America.

我对这里的报纸世界没有很好的感觉，但报纸比在美国重要得多。

They haven’t died out.

他们还没有灭绝。

They’re not just online.

他们不仅仅在线。

It’s fun to walk around on an afternoon or morning in Jerusalem and see four or five different newspapers out for sale, even if I can’t read all of them — or most of them, and sometimes any of them — because my Hebrew is so embryonic and mediocre.

下午或早上在耶路撒冷闲逛，看到四五份不同的报纸在出售，这很有趣，即使我无法阅读所有这些报纸——或者大部分，有时甚至阅读其中任何一份——因为我的希伯来语还处于萌芽状态且平庸。

But they come with a flavor.

但它们带有一种味道。

I think that’s part of what you’re alluding to.

我认为这就是你所暗示的一部分。

They’re more like TV in America.

它们更像是美国的电视。

They have often an ideology and a certain perspective.

他们通常有自己的意识形态和特定的观点。

American newspapers, until recently I would say, pretended they were objective.

我想说，直到最近，美国报纸还假装自己是客观的。

I think there’s less of pretense lately.

我觉得最近假装越来越少了。

But how podcasting fits into that, I don’t know.

但我不知道播客如何融入其中。

I listen to some Hebrew language podcasts, and my Hebrew is not good enough to listen to the other ones.

我听一些希伯来语播客，但我的希伯来语不够好，无法听其他播客。

I should maybe be trying, but podcasting .

我也许应该尝试一下，但是播客。

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We’re trying to enculturate our faculty to certain styles of teaching and expose them to certain ideas.

我们正在努力让我们的教师适应某些教学风格，并向他们展示某些想法。

I’m enjoying that much more than I thought I would, and I’m much more passionate about it.

我比我想象的更享受这一点，而且我对此更有热情。

I’m a little bit dangerous, Tyler.

我有点危险，泰勒。

I’m what’s called in Hebrew a new oleh, one who’s come upward, who’s come up to the land, the land of Israel.

我是希伯来语中所谓的新奥莱（new oleh），一个向上的人，一个来到以色列土地的人。

I find my passion for things Israeli and my national identity way out of line with what I thought it would be as a person who’s — I’ve been here many times.

我发现我对以色列事物的热情和我的民族身份与我所想象的“我来过这里很多次”的人格格不入。

I’ve been here a dozen or so times to visit.

我已经来过这里十几次了。

I lived here as a teenager for eight months when I was in high school with my family.

当我十几岁的时候，我和家人一起在这里住了八个月。

My dad’s company sent him here.

我父亲的公司派他来这里。

I thought I knew what it would be like to live here.

我以为我知道住在这里会是什么样子。

I knew it wouldn’t be the same as being a tourist, but I’ve been surprised at how much national pride I have, how I’m not quite as interested in what’s going on in America.

我知道这和作为一名游客不一样，但我很惊讶我有如此多的民族自豪感，我对美国发生的事情不太感兴趣。

I thought I’d stay connected — either sports, politics, which is just a different form of sports sometimes.

我想我会保持联系——无论是体育还是政治，有时这只是体育的一种不同形式。

It’s very different.

这是非常不同的。

And I think you read stories of immigrants who come to America and who are very emotional when they pass their citizenship tests.

我想你读过一些来到美国的移民的故事，他们在通过公民考试时非常情绪化。

I feel the same thing here, and it’s been a pleasant surprise.

我在这里也有同样的感觉，这真是一个惊喜。

As for the Torah, I think the biggest thing that I felt actually wasn’t in services or reading the Bible; it’s exploring different parts of the country I hadn’t ever been to before.

至于托拉，我认为我感受到的最重要的事情实际上不是在服务或阅读圣经中；而是在其中。它正在探索我以前从未去过的国家的不同地区。

When we first got here early on, we went up north to the Golan Heights, which Israel didn’t have access to until the 1967 war — it’s still controversial in some quarters, of course.

当我们早些时候第一次到达这里时，我们向北前往戈兰高地，以色列直到 1967 年战争才进入戈兰高地——当然，这在某些方面仍然存在争议。

It’s really a stunningly beautiful part of the country, and you can walk a town called Gamala.

这确实是这个国家一个非常美丽的地方，你可以在一个叫加马拉的小镇上散步。

Gamala was a Jewish town in Roman times that the Romans destroyed, a little bit like Masada.

加马拉是罗马时代的一座犹太城镇，被罗马人摧毁，有点像马萨达。

They’ve uncovered the mosaic floor of a synagogue.

他们发现了一座犹太教堂的马赛克地板。

There’s some houses; the floors and rooms and house walls of partial houses are still visible, and it’s a very wild part of the country.

有一些房子；部分房屋的地板、房间和墙壁仍然清晰可见，这是这个国家非常荒凉的地方。

There’s big ravines and outcrops, and then in the distance you can see the sea of Galilee, the Kinneret in Hebrew.

这里有大峡谷和露头，远处可以看到加利利海，希伯来语中的基内雷特。

It just felt different that there’s a Jewish presence in that outpost in the middle of nowhere that’s 2,000 years old.

只是感觉很不一样，在这个有着 2000 年历史的荒无人烟的前哨基地里有犹太人的存在。

I feel part of something that — obviously, intellectually, I felt it before I moved here.

我感觉到自己是某种东西的一部分——显然，从理智上来说，我在搬到这里之前就感觉到了。

But moving here and feeling that and being there and standing on that — having that town to ourselves, my wife and I, we hiked to the top.

但搬到这里，感受到这一点，在那里，站在那儿——我和我的妻子拥有那个小镇，我们徒步到达了山顶。

It’s a little tiny space, hard to believe that a few thousands of people live there, but it’s a crazy, crazy archeological experience to be part of that, and other things like it.

这是一个很小的空间，很难相信有几千人住在那里，但参与其中以及其他类似的事情是一次疯狂的考古体验。

That’s what to me is more special.

这对我来说更特别。

The holiest part of Israel, most people would say, would be the Temple Mount — a Jew would say is the Temple Mount and the Kotel — the wall, the supporting wall of the Temple Mount that the Jews pray at every day now.

大多数人会说，以色列最神圣的部分是圣殿山——犹太人会说是圣殿山和科泰尔——墙，是犹太人现在每天祈祷的圣殿山的支撑墙。

We have access to it since 1967.

自 1967 年以来我们就可以访问它。

Jews have been praying there for thousands of years.

数千年来，犹太人一直在那里祈祷。

It’s very moving to be there.

来到那里真是令人感动。

I’m about an 18- or 20-minute walk from there, and I’ve been there once since I’ve been here.

我距离那里大约步行 18 或 20 分钟，自从我来过这里以来，我已经去过那里一次了。

In the past, I’d come here every trip.

以前，我每次出差都会来这里。

I had to make sure I got to the Kotel and the old city, and I’m surprised how little I’ve been there.

我必须确保到达科泰尔和老城区，但令我惊讶的是我很少去那里。

The workaday, suburban — not suburban — urban streets of Jerusalem feel special in a way that doesn’t require that past hovering over it.

耶路撒冷的日常郊区 ——不是郊区—— 城市街道感觉很特别，不需要过去的阴影笼罩在上面。

It’s just nice to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Now I have two homes.

现在我有两个家。

It’s a little bit weird.

这有点奇怪。

I was born in Memphis, Tennessee.

我出生在田纳西州孟菲斯。

I’ve never lived long anywhere in the United States.

我从来没有在美国的任何地方住过很长时间。

Maryland’s the longest.

马里兰州是最长的。

My time in America, when I was teaching at George Mason and later working at the Hoover Institution — which I’m still affiliated with, by the way — 18 years of my 67 were spent in suburban Washington, DC, which is roughly a quarter and certainly more than a quarter of my adult life.

我在美国的时光，当时我在乔治·梅森教书，后来在胡佛研究所工作——顺便说一句，我仍然隶属于该研究所——我 67 岁的人生中有 18 年是在华盛顿特区郊区度过的，这大约是我成年生活的四分之一，当然超过四分之一。

There’s a certain home there.

那里有一个特定的家。

I have certain friends there, and now, all of a sudden, this feels like home.

我在那里有一些朋友，现在，突然间，这里就像家一样。

I don’t know what Odysseus — he must have had a lot of ups and downs when he was thinking about whether to come home or not, but he came home.

我不知道奥德修斯在考虑要不要回家的时候一定经历了很多坎坷，但他还是回家了。

I think that helps me a little bit.

我认为这对我有一点帮助。

I love that book.

我喜欢那本书。

It’s cheap fun, and all of a sudden it gets really serious.

这很廉价的乐趣，突然间变得非常严肃。

Their families get involved, and it takes these strange and inexplicable turns.

他们的家人也参与其中，事情发生了这些奇怪而令人费解的转折。

I’m sure it’s partly driven by the economics of the business.

我确信这部分是由企业的经济状况驱动的。

I think there’s another thing to think about, which is Jews created Hollywood.

我认为还有一件事需要考虑，那就是犹太人创造了好莱坞。

Jews have been making good movies for a long time.

犹太人长期以来一直在制作优秀的电影。

We’re called the “people of the book.” We’re interested in storytelling — just a standard thing Jews have been doing for a long time.

我们被称为“书中的人”。我们对讲故事感兴趣——这只是犹太人长期以来一直在做的标准事情。

Now, why Israelis, per se, are so good at it is an interesting question.

现在，为什么以色列人本身如此擅长这是一个有趣的问题。

It’s obviously a function of wealth and the ability now to market those stories to a much wider audience.

这显然是财富和现在向更广泛的受众推销这些故事的能力的函数。

I think your point about how subtitles and Netflix allowed that to reach a much wider audience than was available before — it’s really a puzzle.

我认为你关于字幕和 Netflix 如何让其接触到比以前更广泛的观众的观点 ——这确实是一个谜题。

They’re not particularly designed, I don’t think, anymore for the Israeli market.

我认为它们不再是专门为以色列市场设计的。

The real puzzle to me is why they’re popular, not why they’re so good.

对我来说真正的困惑是它们为什么受欢迎，而不是它们为什么这么好。

Why do people want to watch Shtisel, which is — not much happens in Shtisel and it’s a look .

为什么人们想看《Shtisel》，这是 — 《Shtisel》中没有发生太多事情，只是一个外观。

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I’ve also argued, I think part of the appeal of that show — there’s an anthropological voyeurism.

我还认为，我认为该节目的部分吸引力在于——存在人类学的窥淫癖。

Here’s a culture and a community that’s very alien to most people, including modern Orthodox Jews.

这里的文化和社区对大多数人来说都是非常陌生的，包括现代东正教犹太人。

It’s a very different form of religious Judaism, the ultra-Orthodox that they’re portraying in that show.

这是一种非常不同形式的宗教犹太教，他们在该剧中描绘的极端正统派。

Part of the charm of the show is that they have the same problems we do.

该节目的部分魅力在于他们面临着与我们相同的问题。

They have trouble with their kids.

他们和孩子之间有麻烦。

They’re not sure whether they’re going to make a living.

他们不确定自己是否能谋生。

That’s part of the charm.

这就是魅力的一部分。

I think the other part of the charm is what you’re talking about.

我认为魅力的另一部分就是你所说的。

There’s a certain old-fashionedness there that people may not want to live that way themselves, but they like watching it, the way they like reading a Jane Austen novel, where the mores of romance are long gone in the past.

那里有一种过时的感觉，人们可能不想自己过那样的生活，但他们喜欢看它，就像他们喜欢读简·奥斯汀小说一样，那里的浪漫习俗早已成为过去。

And there’s a certain innocence, I think, to the characters in Shtisel, which makes it so deeply appealing.

我认为《Shtisel》中的角色有一定的纯真，这使得它如此具有吸引力。

The only other observation I want to make, which I think is so fascinating to me, is it’s a show about ultra-religious, ultra-Orthodox Jews — there’s almost no Judaism in the show.

我唯一想做的另一个观察，我认为这对我来说非常着迷，是这是一个关于极端宗教、极端正统犹太人的节目 ——节目中几乎没有犹太教。

They murmur and mutter blessings under their breath, but there’s no glorification of, say, the religious experience of the Shabbat, and they don’t make fun of it either.

他们低声嘀咕着祝福，但没有赞美安息日的宗教经历，也没有取笑它。

There’s no mocking of it or of the attitudes; they’re just taken as they are.

没有任何嘲笑它或态度的东西；他们只是被当作他们本来的样子。

I think that was a genius move by the creators to make that show the way it is.

我认为这是创作者们的天才之举，让节目呈现出原来的样子。

If you come here and you get off the plane and you get in a cab — this happens in America.

如果你来到这里，下飞机然后坐上出租车——这在美国就会发生。

Prices in America in a cab off the meter are often negotiated.

在美国，计价器外的出租车价格通常是协商的。

The cab driver will say something and, “How about if we don’t use the meter?

出租车司机会说：“我们不打表怎么样？

How about a flat rate?” In America, you know what it’s going to be because you’ve been in cabs in America.

统一费率怎么样？”在美国，你知道会发生什么，因为你在美国坐过出租车。

As a newcomer, you don’t always know how far it’s going to be, what the real fare should be, and so you’re vulnerable.

作为一个新人，你并不总是知道要走多远，真正的票价应该是多少，所以你很容易受到伤害。

A lot of Americans I know get angry when the cab driver says, “Let’s take it off the meter and pay cash.” They say, “No, put it on the meter.”

我认识的很多美国人在出租车司机说“我们把车从计价表上拿下来并支付现金吧”时都会生气。他们说：“不，把它记在计价器上。”

A friend of mine was telling me he got yelled at by the cab driver.

我的一个朋友告诉我他被出租车司机吼了。

Like, “I don’t want to put it on the meter.” He was thinking, “That’s the job.

就像，“我不想把它记在计价器上。”他心里想：“这就是工作。

That’s the rule.

这就是规则。

Come on, put it on the meter.” I think that the anger of the cab driver was really just, “Hey, we’re negotiating here.

来吧，把它放在计价器上。”我认为出租车司机的愤怒实际上只是，“嘿，我们正在这里谈判。

We’re having fun.

我们玩得很开心。

Here’s the game.

这是游戏。

It’s not theater, but it is a game.” And there is some theater involved because you don’t know how the drama’s going to end.

这不是戏剧，而是一场游戏。”并且涉及一些戏剧，因为你不知道戏剧将如何结束。

I think here, it’s a little bit of the fabric of daily life, and that’s a little strange.

我认为这是日常生活的一部分，这有点奇怪。

It takes some getting used to.

这需要一些时间来适应。

I think when I rented our apartment here, I think it was an eight- or ten-page lease, had to hire a lawyer.

我想当我在这里租公寓时，我认为这是一份八页或十页的租约，必须聘请律师。

Never had a lawyer for a lease.

从未有过租赁律师。

I’ve rented a dozen places, 20 places in America.

我在美国租了十几个地方，二十个地方。

That was strange.

这很奇怪。

What I had to do to sign the lease, things I had to do to get the lease done, insurance I bought, weird stuff that just doesn’t happen in America, and it’s all in Hebrew.

我必须做什么才能签署租约，我必须做什么才能完成租约，我购买的保险，在美国不会发生的奇怪事情，而这一切都是希伯来语。

That part’s challenging.

这部分很有挑战性。

Anything else?

还要别的吗？

Those are the ones that come to mind.

我想到的就是这些。

As a result, the best langue is Arabic.

因此，最好的语言是阿拉伯语。

There’s an enormous number of Arabic words that are used daily.

每天使用的阿拉伯语单词数量巨大。

I like to tease my Israeli friends that there’s no Hebrew word for “fun.” When you tell them that, they say, “There’s kef.” It’s an Arabic word.

我喜欢取笑我的以色列朋友，希伯来语中没有“乐趣”这个词。当你告诉他们这一点时，他们会说：“有 kef。”这是一个阿拉伯词。

It’s a cheap shot at the seriousness of life here, and that’s not true.

这是对这里生活严肃性的廉价攻击，但事实并非如此。

There’s a lot of vibrancy and people here have a lot of fun, but there’s no native Hebrew word for fun.

这里充满活力，人们玩得很开心，但希伯来语中没有“乐趣”这个词。

I blame it on Ben Yehuda.

我把这归咎于本·耶胡达。

The word freier is a very, very interesting word, and it’s an interesting aspect of human nature, because it means a sucker.

freier这个词是一个非常非常有趣的词，它是人性的一个有趣的方面，因为它意味着傻瓜。

Some Americans here will talk about the freier tax, the amount of money extra you pay because you just don’t know what you’re doing here.

这里的一些美国人会谈论更自由的税收，即你因为不知道自己在这里做什么而额外支付的金额。

You’re just lost; you don’t know the norms.

你只是迷路了；你不知道规范。

I try not to worry about being a freier.

我尽量不去担心成为一名自由人。

I view it as a form of charity.

我将其视为一种慈善形式。

I have a comfortable life.

我过着舒适的生活。

I can pay a little bit extra, it’s not a problem, I’m happy to do it.

我可以多付一点钱，这不是问题，我很乐意这样做。

But people worry about it, I think, emotionally.

但我认为，人们在情感上对此感到担忧。

I think it’s an important part of human nature that economics doesn’t have much to say about.

我认为这是人性的重要组成部分，经济学对此没有太多可说的。

The fear that you’re being taken advantage of drives a lot of bad behavior on both sides of various transactions if you don’t have a good level of trust.

如果您没有良好的信任度，担心自己被利用会导致各种交易双方出现许多不良行为。

They don’t serve in the army, which is fascinating.

他们不在军队服役，这很有趣。

They don’t want to serve in the army, incidentally, which I also understand.

顺便说一句，他们不想参军，这一点我也能理解。

It’s complicated for them.

这对他们来说很复杂。

And those are distinct from the West Bank of Gaza, who are Palestinians.

这些人与加沙西岸的巴勒斯坦人不同。

Then there’s some special categories of folks who live in East Jerusalem, which is a disputed, more challenging — and I don’t know all the ins and outs of that.

还有一些特殊类别的人居住在东耶路撒冷，这是一个有争议的、更具挑战性的地方——我不知道其中的所有来龙去脉。

But my wife is going to ulpan — ulpan is Hebrew lessons.

但我妻子要去 ulpan ——ulpan 是希伯来语课程。

She goes to ulpan three hours a day, four days a week.

她每周去乌尔潘三小时，每周四天。

Twenty-two of her 23, I think, or 21 of her 23 classmates are Arab Israelis who think their Hebrew is not good — they all speak Hebrew.

我认为她的 23 个同学中有 22 个，或者说她的 23 个同学中有 21 个是阿拉伯以色列人，他们认为自己的希伯来语不好——他们都说希伯来语。

They speak very good English, but their Hebrew is not good enough, so they’re improving their Hebrew because they want to go to a good university, they want to get a good education, they want to be in business.

他们的英语说得很好，但希伯来语还不够好，所以他们正在提高希伯来语，因为他们想上一所好的大学，他们想接受良好的教育，他们想从商。

And they’re all young, by the way; they’re all in their 20s.

顺便说一句，他们都很年轻；他们都20多岁了。

I don’t have much exposure to the Arab Israeli population yet.

我对阿拉伯以色列人口还没有太多了解。

It’s something to find out about.

这是值得了解的事情。

I think there’s something to learn there.

我认为那里有一些值得学习的东西。

I think it’s possible I’m naïve.

我想我可能很天真。

I like to think there’s a way that the great religions of the world would get along a little bit better, the followers of those religions.

我认为有一种方法可以让世界上伟大的宗教与这些宗教的追随者相处得更好一些。

On the ground, face to face, I think we get along pretty well, but it’s not going so well overall in the outside world, so there’s work to do.

在实地，面对面，我认为我们相处得很好，但外界整体情况不太好，所以还有很多工作要做。

As an economist I like to think that commercial interaction helps.

作为一名经济学家，我认为商业互动会有所帮助。

Do you think that helps?

你认为这有帮助吗？

Do you think it’s trade — what do you think of this view that trade leads to peace?

您认为这是贸易吗 ——您如何看待贸易带来和平的观点？

Many Jews here are secular.

这里的许多犹太人都是世俗的。

Their Judaism is that they live in a Jewish state.

他们的犹太教是他们生活在犹太国家。

Now, there are other Jews who are religious.

现在，还有其他犹太人有宗教信仰。

And then, in between that, there’s all kinds of stuff happening here that’s really fascinating.

然后，在这之间，这里发生了各种各样非常有趣的事情。

I recommend the book The Wondering Jew by Micah Goodman, that came out in the last few years, about what’s going on on the ground here in Israel and the amount of religious innovation that’s happening and how people who are “not religious” are connecting to Jewish text.

我推荐米卡·古德曼（Micah Goodman）在过去几年出版的《好奇的犹太人》（The Wondering Jew）一书，该书讲述了以色列正在发生的事情、正在发生的宗教创新的数量以及“不信教”的人如何与犹太教文本建立联系。

People who are religious are leading more open lives.

有宗教信仰的人过着更加开放的生活。

The tension between the religious and the nonreligious here is somewhat overrated.

这里宗教与非宗教之间的紧张关系有些被高估了。

Having said that, some of the source of that tension is governmental mandates that give preferences for subsidies to childbearing, and the ultra-Orthodox tend to have much, much larger families.

话虽如此，这种紧张关系的部分根源是政府规定对生育补贴给予优先考虑，而极端正统派往往拥有大得多的家庭。

Families are much larger here in Israel than in America generally, secular and religious, but the ultra-Orthodox tend to have the larger families.

以色列的家庭规模普遍比美国大得多，无论是世俗的还是宗教的，但极端正统派的家庭往往更大。

And they’ve used their political power to get both subsidies for children, exemptions from army service, and other forms of special treatment that nonreligious Jews, not surprisingly, find offensive.

他们还利用自己的政治权力来获得儿童补贴、免服兵役以及其他形式的特殊待遇，毫不奇怪，这些待遇会让非宗教犹太人感到冒犯。

I don’t think the alliance of the state with the Jewish religion has necessarily been a good thing.

我不认为国家与犹太教的联盟一定是一件好事。

Many people before me have pointed out that the United States is generally a more religious country than Europe, but there’s no state religion in America.

在我之前有很多人指出，美国总体上是一个比欧洲更加宗教化的国家，但美国没有国教。

Most of Europe has state religion.

欧洲大部分地区都有国教。

The state doesn’t do anything particularly well, and it doesn’t tend to lead to good feelings about religion and has not over time.

国家在任何事情上都做得不是特别好，也不会让人对宗教产生好感，而且随着时间的推移也不会产生这种好感。

When you ask the question, “If you take away some monopoly power from the rabbinic authorities here, are you going to get less kosher food?” The answer is you might get more kosher food.

当你问这样的问题时：“如果你从这里的拉比当局手中夺走一些垄断权力，你会得到更少的犹太食品吗？”答案是你可能会得到更多的犹太食品。

There’s a lot of resentment of the way that the kosher certification has worked here.

人们对犹太洁食认证的运作方式抱有很多不满。

A lot of people feel that a lot of times a fee is collected and not much supervision takes place.

很多人感觉很多时候都是收费的，而监管却很少。

These are nonreligious people who resent that they’re paying for something that gives them the certificate they need to serve their religious customers, but don’t like the hypocrisy of that system.

这些人是非宗教人士，他们对自己花钱购买的东西感到不满，因为他们为宗教客户提供了服务所需的证书，但也不喜欢这个系统的虚伪。

It’s a fantastic example, by the way, of the natural assumption most people have that when there’s a law that gets enforced, or when there’s a law, the government does it well.

顺便说一句，这是一个很好的例子，大多数人都有这样的自然假设：当有法律得到执行时，或者有法律时，政府就会做得很好。

Or I’ve had people say to me, “What if we move to a more decentralized system?

或者有人对我说：“如果我们转向更加去中心化的系统怎么办？

People won’t be able to trust the kosher certification.” You sure you trust it now, when the government has a monopoly driven by rabbinic oversight?

人们将无法相信犹太洁食认证。”当政府拥有由拉比监督驱动的垄断时，你确定你现在相信它吗？

A lot of people say it doesn’t work so well.

很多人说效果不太好。

I’m excited about the role competition might play in the process, and I think it’ll lead to cheaper kosher food, more kosher food, more restaurants offering certified kosher food that I think will actually be kosher, and we’ll be fine.

我对竞争在这个过程中可能发挥的作用感到兴奋，我认为这将导致更便宜的犹太食品、更多的犹太食品、更多的餐厅提供经过认证的犹太食品，我认为这些食品实际上是犹太食品，我们会没事的。

As you know, decades ago, many of the ultra-Orthodox were anti-Zionist, rather than Zionist that they now tend to be.

如您所知，几十年前，许多极端正统派都是反犹太复国主义者，而不是现在的犹太复国主义者。

So there is actual pressure where everyone has to be in the Riker-esque winning coalition, and things like monopoly power over kosher certification — whatever it’s going to be — but you have to give them something.

因此，存在着实际的压力，每个人都必须加入赖克式的获胜联盟，以及诸如犹太洁食认证的垄断权力之类的东西——“无论它是什么”——但你必须给他们一些东西。

Is that an accurate way of thinking about the Israeli political dilemma?

这是思考以色列政治困境的正确方式吗？

They tend to have different rules about how Sabbath is kept in terms of public services.

他们对于如何在公共服务方面遵守安息日往往有不同的规则。

Cultural norms also, of course, play a role.

当然，文化规范也发挥着作用。

I don’t like that idea.

我不喜欢这个主意。

As a Jew, I don’t like that idea.

作为一个犹太人，我不喜欢这个想法。

As religious person, I don’t like the idea that this implicit bargain that somehow the ultra-Orthodox are, what, carrying the water of the ballast — I don’t know what you would call it — anchoring the Jewishness of the country.

作为宗教人士，我不喜欢这种隐含的交易，即极端正统派在某种程度上承载着压载水 ——“我不知道你会怎么称呼它”—— 锚定这个国家的犹太性。

I don’t think it’s an issue for most Israelis to think about it that way.

我认为对于大多数以色列人来说，这样思考并不是一个问题。

I don’t think it would come natural.

我认为这不会是自然而然的。

I think that’s definitely a Riker-esque — a reference to William Riker, who I got to be a colleague of for about five years at the University of Rochester.

我认为这绝对是 Riker 式的——指的是 William Riker，我在罗切斯特大学与他做了大约五年的同事。

He was a wonderful, wonderful man — very insightful and credible, twinkle in his eye.

他是一个非常非常出色的人——非常有洞察力、可信，眼睛里闪烁着光芒。

His work — I think you’ve probably read it, Tyler — he was applying a lot of economics tools in his day long before other folks.

他的著作——我想你可能已经读过，泰勒——他早在其他人之前就应用了很多经济学工具。

He’s forgotten among our colleagues, but I like him a lot.

他在我们的同事中被遗忘了，但我很喜欢他。

He was constantly — we try to solve it as economists through money — not literally money, but by putting a monetary value.

他不断地——“作为经济学家，我们试图通过货币来解决这个问题”——“不是字面意思上的货币，而是通过赋予货币价值来解决这个问题。”

In the next five minutes, Tyler, I’m going to say something embarrassing about your past that I’ve discovered.

在接下来的五分钟内，泰勒，我要说一些我发现的关于你过去的尴尬事。

I could ask you — it’s just an example, Tyler; I don’t really know anything.

我可以问你 —— 这只是一个例子，泰勒；我真的什么都不知道。

I can’t imagine there’s anything embarrassing.

我无法想象有什么尴尬的事情。

Suppose I knew something about you, and I said “Tyler,” before the show, I said, “I’m thinking of saying this.

假设我对你有所了解，我在演出前说“泰勒”，我说，“我想这么说。

How much would you pay me not to say it?

如果我不说出来，你愿意付多少钱？

I’m not going to collect the bribe.”

我不会收受贿赂。”

I’m blackmailing you in that story.

我在那个故事里勒索你。

The way economists use the utilitarian framework is everything’s a form of that calculus.

经济学家使用功利主义框架的方式是一切微积分的一种形式。

The Grand Canyon, the view of the Grand Canyon, is that a monetary transaction?

大峡谷，大峡谷的景色，那是金钱交易吗？

Of course not, but we can ask the question, how much would you pay to be able to continue to see the Grand Canyon for the rest of your life?

当然不是，但是我们可以问一个问题，你愿意花多少钱才能在你的余生中继续看到大峡谷？

How much would you pay for your children to be able to see it?

你愿意花多少钱让你的孩子能够看到它？

In that way, I can trade that off in theory against other things and create a scale.

这样，我就可以在理论上将其与其他事物进行权衡并创建一个比例。

The problem with that scale, of course, is every good economist knows — and many bad ones don’t — is that the scale depends on how much money you have.

当然，这个规模的问题是，每个优秀的经济学家都知道——而许多糟糕的经济学家则不知道——规模取决于你有多少钱。

It’s not a real scale of pleasure and pain.

这不是真正的快乐和痛苦的尺度。

It’s a scale for me.

这对我来说是一个尺度。

My ability then to compare my cost and benefits to yours is, I think, zero.

我认为，我将我的成本和收益与你们进行比较的能力为零。

As economists, we don’t like that.

作为经济学家，我们不喜欢这样。

We want to aggregate.

我们想要聚合。

We want to be able to say, “This is good policy because the net gains are positive,” or “This is a bad policy.

我们希望能够说，“这是一个好的政策，因为净收益是正数”，或者“这是一个糟糕的政策。

The net gains are negative.” Do you agree with that?

净收益为负。”你同意吗？

I think it’s horrible.

我觉得这太可怕了。

In other words, let’s suppose a person’s considering two different spouses, and you choose one, and they’re willing to marry you.

换句话说，假设一个人正在考虑两个不同的配偶，你选择了一个，他们愿意嫁给你。

As economists, we say, “There’s revealed preference.

作为经济学家，我们说：“存在显性偏好。

You picked the one you thought was better for you.” How would you begin to conceptualize what “better” means in that context?

你选择了你认为更适合你的那个。”在这种情况下，您将如何开始概念化“更好”的含义？

I think the risk, and I think that the easy way to think about it is more fun.

我认为风险很大，而且我认为用简单的方式来思考它会更有趣。

Fun broadly defined, meaning day-to-day life will be better with this person than the other person.

广义上的乐趣，意味着这个人的日常生活会比另一个人更好。

That’s my expectation.

这是我的期望。

I think that’s a bizarre — the more where I’ve thought about this — I’m happily married.

我觉得这很奇怪——“我越想越多”——“我的婚姻很幸福。”

But this book I’m writing next, called Wild Problems, is about this kind of challenge.

但我接下来要写的这本书，名为《狂野问题》，就是关于这种挑战的。

Is it really a meaningful statement, in the sense that there are so many different aspects of marriage and life, and all kind of choices we make like this, that aren’t about just what it’s like to be around them?

这真的是一个有意义的陈述吗？从某种意义上说，婚姻和生活有很多不同的方面，以及我们做出的各种选择，而不仅仅是围绕在他们身边的感觉？

It includes things like pride, it includes things like sense of purpose, includes things like meaning.

它包括诸如骄傲之类的东西，它包括诸如使命感之类的东西，包括诸如意义之类的东西。

When I take a job, obviously I don’t take the job that pays the most, necessarily.

当我接受一份工作时，显然我不一定会接受薪水最高的工作。

I take the job that I think will be the best, meaning a mix of nonmonetary and monetary benefit.

我接受我认为最好的工作，这意味着非金钱和金钱利益的结合。

Is it really a meaningful statement if one job gives me a huge amount of pride, and the other I’m embarrassed about?

如果一份工作让我非常自豪，而另一份工作让我感到尴尬，这真的是一个有意义的说法吗？

Do I really think I can trade those off and put a number on those?

我真的认为我可以权衡这些并对其进行数字化吗？

Ultimately, this Benthamite calculus to me is about this idea that we could put a scaler, a single number, after we’ve aggregated everything up.

最终，对我来说，边沁演算是关于这样一个想法：在我们汇总所有内容之后，我们可以放置一个缩放器，一个单一的数字。

I think that’s a false claim.

我认为这是一个错误的说法。

I’m a big believer in competition to make the world a better place, under some constraints of course.

我坚信竞争可以让世界变得更美好，当然，这是在一些限制条件下的。

Israel has — was it 30 years ago?

以色列有——“是30年前吗？”

Thirty years ago, everybody knew that Israel was going to struggle to stay a Jewish state because birth rates were low among the Jewish population.

三十年前，每个人都知道以色列将很难维持犹太国家地位，因为犹太人口的出生率很低。

They were high among the Arab Israeli population.

他们在阿拉伯以色列人口中的比例很高。

Soon, Israel will be in this weird predicament of being a Jewish state where the Jews are a minority.

很快，以色列将陷入犹太人占少数的犹太国家的奇怪困境。

People did not foresee the fall of the Soviet Union and the influx of millions of Russian Jews into Israel.

人们没有预见到苏联的解体和数百万俄罗斯犹太人涌入以色列。

Israel’s really avoided the existential threats that would require a very, very nondemocratic response.

以色列确实避免了需要采取非常非常不民主的应对措施的生存威胁。

It’s not a democratic place like America.

它不是像美国那样的民主国家。

Any Jew can come live here, if they can prove that they’re Jewish — but much harder if you’re not.

任何犹太人都可以来这里生活，只要他们能证明自己是犹太人 ——但如果你不是犹太人就更难了。

I’m a big fan of open borders, but I do want there to be a Jewish state.

我非常支持开放边界，但我确实希望有一个犹太国家。

There’s an inconsistency there, for me, that’s somewhat troubling.

对我来说，其中存在不一致之处，这有点令人不安。

But I’m happy to maintain that, the ethnic religious character that you referred to as a Jewish state.

但我很高兴维持你所说的犹太国家的民族宗教特征。

I have to say that it used to be, when I was growing up, “That’s pleasant.

我不得不说，在我成长的过程中，“这很令人愉快。

It’s nice to have a Jewish state.” In the last 10 years, the last 5 years, I’ve actually thought, there really has to be a Jewish state.

拥有一个犹太国家真是太好了。”在过去的十年里，过去的五年里，我实际上一直在想，确实必须有一个犹太国家。

We actually were living in a world where anti-Semitism was unimaginable 20 years ago.

事实上，我们生活在一个 20 年前反犹太主义是不可想象的世界。

It’s now increasingly common or not surprising.

现在这种情况越来越普遍，或者说并不奇怪。

I think it’s scary.

我觉得这很可怕。

The so-called Jewish question: What’s the Jews’ role in the world when they’re a citizen of another country?

所谓的犹太人问题：当犹太人成为另一个国家的公民时，他们在世界上扮演什么角色？

It’s back, and hard to imagine.

它又回来了，而且很难想象。

I’m shocked by it.

我对此感到震惊。

Are you surprised by that?

你对此感到惊讶吗？

I know it doesn’t touch you the way it touches me or my children, but are you surprised that anti-Semitism is actually — people get killed for being Jews in the United States?

我知道它不会像触动我或我的孩子那样触动你，但你对反犹太主义实际上是 —— 在美国人们因为是犹太人而被杀感到惊讶吗？

Weird.

诡异的。

Didn’t think it could happen.

没想到这会发生。

Doesn’t happen very often.

不经常发生。

I’m not paranoid about it, but it’s surprising it happens at all.

我对此并不偏执，但它的发生却令人惊讶。

Let’s say also that the current reliance of the Palestinian territories on the state of Israel for protection, security, intelligence, water — many important features of life — prevent those governing bodies from ever attaining sufficient autonomy to be a credible peace partner, guaranteer of its own security, and so on.

我们还可以说，巴勒斯坦领土目前在保护、安全、情报、水——“生活的许多重要特征”方面对以色列国家的依赖——阻碍了这些管理机构获得足够的自治权，无法成为可靠的和平伙伴、自身安全的保障者等等。

From that point of view, what do we do?

从这个角度来看，我们该怎么办？

We’re not utilitarians.

我们不是功利主义者。

We’re thinking about what’s right and wrong.

我们正在思考什么是对的，什么是错的。

What’s the right thing to do?

什么是正确的做法？

I recommend that book.

我推荐那本书。

It’s the best book you can read about what’s going on here politically and intellectually and emotionally.

这是关于这里的政治、智力和情感上正在发生的事情的最好的书。

It’s a phenomenal book.

这是一本非凡的书。

Even though part of his insight is it’s wrong to look for a solution — if I remember the book correctly; I read it quickly — but think about ways to live with it.

尽管他的部分见解是寻找解决方案是错误的——如果我没记错这本书；我读得很快 —— 但思考如何忍受它。

Think about ways to make life better.

思考如何让生活变得更美好。

Think about ways to move toward improvement rather than fixing it.

思考如何改进而不是解决问题。

I think the American foreign policy establishment has spent the last decades just trying to fix it.

我认为美国外交政策机构在过去几十年里一直在试图解决这个问题。

It may not be fixable.

它可能无法修复。

It’s hard to admit that as a rational person.

作为一个理性的人很难承认这一点。

It’s hard to admit it as a person who lives here.

作为一个住在这里的人很难承认这一点。

By the way, I should just mention, people have hurt me in the last month saying, “Is it scary here?

顺便说一句，我应该提一下，上个月人们伤害了我，说：“这里可怕吗？

Would you be afraid to raise your children there if you had young children?” It’s an incredible place to raise children.

如果你有小孩，你会害怕在那里抚养孩子吗？”这是一个令人难以置信的抚养孩子的地方。

Children here run free without fear.

这里的孩子们自由奔跑，无所畏惧。

They play in a way that American children used to be allowed to play.

他们以美国孩子过去被允许玩耍的方式玩耍。

I played that way growing up; it’s still true here.

我从小就是这么玩的；这里仍然如此。

There’s very little crime on the streets, very little street crime, very little theft, very little burglary and so on.

街上的犯罪很少，街头犯罪、盗窃、入室盗窃等等都很少。

There’s the threat of terrorism.

有恐怖主义的威胁。

You’re much more likely to get stabbed in Jerusalem than you are in New York City.

在耶路撒冷，你被刺伤的可能性比在纽约市高得多。

Of course, it’s not common, thank God, at least of right now, but it’s serious.

当然，感谢上帝，至少目前这种情况并不常见，但它很严重。

Then you got Iran.

然后你就有了伊朗。

As I alluded to earlier, it’s a tough neighborhood.

正如我之前提到的，这是一个艰难的社区。

I think it behooves — if I may use a word that’s out of fashion — it behooves us all to think about ways to both reduce the security threat to Israel, and to improve the lives of the people who, of course in the West Bank, in Gaza and elsewhere, who — they’re not very good democracies, even though sometimes there are elections.

我认为，“如果我可以使用一个过时的词的话，我们所有人都应该考虑如何减少对以色列的安全威胁，并改善人们的生活，当然，在约旦河西岸、加沙和其他地方，他们不是很好的民主国家，尽管有时会有选举。

I don’t necessarily believe that the person on the street there is being — I don’t know what their attitudes are.

我不一定相信街上的人是 —— 我不知道他们的态度是什么。

They can’t give an honest answer, out of fear, so I wouldn’t rely on survey data.

出于恐惧，他们无法给出诚实的答案，所以我不会依赖调查数据。

I think there’s certainly a lot of people in those parts of the world — our neighbors here, our cousins, just want to lead a normal life and have a better life for their children, like most people aspire to.

我认为世界上那些地方肯定有很多人——我们这里的邻居、我们的表兄弟姐妹，只是想过上正常的生活，并为他们的孩子过上更好的生活，就像大多数人所渴望的那样。

How do you improve that?

你如何改进这一点？

I would love to have more commercial interaction, although I agree with you that trade is not a panacea.

我希望有更多的商业互动，尽管我同意你的观点，贸易不是万能的。

Or does that mean it is a panacea?

或者说它是灵丹妙药？

I can’t remember; I have trouble with that word.

我不记得了；我对这个词有困难。

I think there used to be more commercial interaction between the Palestinian population and Israel because it was more peaceful.

我认为巴勒斯坦人和以色列之间过去有更多的商业互动，因为它更加和平。

Now that the threat of terrorism is aired, Israel’s rolled off its borders to those neighborhoods and those parts of the world, to Gaza, because it’s scary.

既然恐怖主义的威胁已经公之于众，以色列就将其边界扩展到那些社区和世界的那些地区，到了加沙，因为这很可怕。

That’s tragedy.

那是悲剧。

They live horribly there.

他们在那里生活得很糟糕。

It’s a very tough place to live, Gaza.

加沙是一个生活非常艰难的地方。

Egypt’s not very nice to them either, by the way.

顺便说一句，埃及对他们也不太友善。

They have a closed border with Egypt.

他们与埃及有封闭的边界。

I think the challenge is to find ways — the real problem right now is that Israel doesn’t have a negotiating partner who thinks that Israel has a right to exist, so Hamas doesn’t recognize Israel’s right to exist.

我认为挑战在于找到方法——现在真正的问题是以色列没有一个认为以色列有生存权的谈判伙伴，所以哈马斯不承认以色列的生存权。

It’s hard to imagine a two-state solution with that.

很难想象这样的两国解决方案。

How do you improve things along the way?

一路上你如何改进事情？

I think you look for ways to do some commercial interaction.

我认为你正在寻找进行一些商业互动的方法。

I think the other thing reminds me a little bit of — I’ll say it this way.

我认为另一件事让我想起了一点 —— 我会这样说。

This is the Middle East.

这是中东。

There are cultural norms here that are not the same as in America.

这里的文化规范与美国不同。

I think a lot of Americans have no understanding of that.

我认为很多美国人对此并不了解。

Certainly American Jews don’t.

美国犹太人当然不这么认为。

I don’t think American negotiators understand it so well, probably, the role that pride, face, dignity plays — as opposed to, say, narrow self-interest, narrowly defined.

我认为美国谈判代表可能不太了解骄傲、面子、尊严所扮演的角色，而不是狭隘的狭隘自身利益。

I think it’s much greater for those other intangible things.

我认为这对于其他无形的东西来说要重要得多。

Personally, I’d like to see Israel try a different move toward normalcy.

就我个人而言，我希望看到以色列尝试采取不同的行动来实现正常化。

I also understand that I’m naïve and have only lived here six months, and have very little thoughtful to say about that that I would want anyone to pay attention to, because it’s a different neighborhood than where I came from in Maryland.

我也知道我很天真，只在这里住了六个月，对于我希望任何人关注的事情，我没有什么深思熟虑的说法，因为这是一个与我来自马里兰州的社区不同的社区。

It’s not easily understood.

这并不容易理解。

What might be seen as a generous gesture in Maryland might be seen differently here, and vice versa.

在马里兰州可能被视为慷慨的举动在这里可能会有不同的看法，反之亦然。

Something that’s harsh in Maryland might be seen very differently here.

马里兰州的严酷情况在这里可能会有很大不同。

Israelis have their own cultural baggage, not just that they’re part of this Middle Eastern culture, that they share to some extent with their neighbors.

以色列人有自己的文化包袱，不仅因为他们是中东文化的一部分，而且他们在某种程度上与邻居共享这种文化包袱。

Israelis are very proud of their self-reliance.

以色列人对他们的自力更生感到非常自豪。

I’ll tell you a story.

我给你讲一个故事。

I once — again, I’ve only been here six months, but this is an old story; it tells you something.

我曾经——再次强调，我只在这里呆了六个月，但这是一个老故事了；它告诉你一些事情。

I’m flying out of JFK.

我要从肯尼迪国际机场起飞。

I have to get to Israel to visit one of my kids who’s studying here for the year, this special program for the parents.

我必须去以色列看望我的一个孩子，他在这里学习了一年，这是一个针对家长的特殊项目。

It’s a small window for me to get here in time to enjoy the program with my son.

对我来说，及时赶到这里与儿子一起享受节目的机会很小。

JFK, every flight’s cancelled, it’s snowing, just this relentless hour after hour blanketing the city.

肯尼迪国际机场，所有航班都取消了，下雪了，一小时又一小时无情地覆盖着整个城市。

I leave midtown Manhattan to go to JFK.

我离开曼哈顿市中心前往肯尼迪机场。

My flight on El Al, the Israeli airline, is still not cancelled somehow, but the cab can’t go faster than 20 miles an hour.

我搭乘的以色列航空公司 El Al 的航班不知何故仍未取消，但出租车的行驶速度不能超过每小时 20 英里。

There’s no one on the road.

路上没有人。

Our cab’s the only car on the road.

我们的出租车是路上唯一的车。

Takes us about 45 minutes or an hour to get to JFK at 20 miles an hour.

我们以每小时 20 英里的速度大约需要 45 分钟或一个小时才能到达肯尼迪机场。

I get to the desk to check my bags.

我到柜台检查我的行李。

They asked me the security questions, which El Al does differently than anybody else.

他们问了我安全问题，以色列航空公司的做法与其他人不同。

They take my bag.

他们拿走了我的包。

I get to the front desk to get my boarding pass, and they say, “Can I help you?” I said, “Yes, I’m on flight such and such.” I said, “We’re not leaving tonight, are we?

我到前台领取登机牌，他们说：“我可以帮助您吗？”我说：“是的，我正在某某航班上。”我说：“我们今晚不会走，是吗？

We’re not really going to fly in this?

我们真的不会乘坐这个飞行吗？

This flight’s going to be canceled, isn’t it?

这个航班要取消了，不是吗？

I’m two hours early, and it’s still going to keep snowing the whole time.”

我提早了两个小时，而且雪一直会下个不停。”

She looks at me and she says, “Our pilots, they’re all from the Israeli Air Force.

她看着我说：“我们的飞行员都来自以色列空军。

The rule here is it’s the pilot’s call.

这里的规则是由飞行员决定。

They can decide they’re uncomfortable flying and cancel a flight at any time.” She said, “As long as the airport’s open, we’re going to fly, because those pilots, they’re going to fly.

他们可以认为飞行不舒服并随时取消航班。”她说：“只要机场开放，我们就会飞，因为那些飞行员，他们就会飞。

They’re confident that they can fly through that storm.” There’s something beautiful about that.

他们有信心能够飞过这场风暴。”这有一些美丽的东西。

Something scary.

有什么可怕的。

I was really excited because I wanted to get to see my son, but just thinking, “I don’t know if that’s always my mentality.”

我真的很兴奋，因为我想见到我的儿子，但只是想，“我不知道这是否一直是我的心态。”

That’s the Israeli mentality.

这就是以色列人的心态。

“We’ll get it done.

“我们会完成它的。

We’ll take care of it.

我们会处理的。

It’ll work out.” We’re joking a lot.

会成功的。”我们经常开玩笑。

Not joking, but we’re talking around these issues of bluntness and this culture here, but there’s a vitality and national pride here that’s so missing in America these days.

不是开玩笑，但我们正在讨论这些直率的问题和这里的文化，但这里有一种活力和民族自豪感，而这些是美国现在所缺失的。

I’m very worried about the future of America.

我非常担心美国的未来。

It’s a different set of worries here, but they’re not bad worries relative to what America’s dealing with, it feels like.

这是一系列不同的担忧，但相对于美国正在处理的问题来说，它们并不是什么糟糕的担忧，感觉上是这样。

Are you optimistic about the future of America as a country?

您对美国这个国家的未来感到乐观吗？

I think it’s a bit of a fallacy — I know you don’t subscribe to it, but a lot of people do — that if we don’t import workers to do those jobs, no one will do them.

我认为这有点谬误——“我知道你不同意，但很多人都同意——”如果我们不引进工人来做这些工作，就没有人会做这些工作。

That’s not true.

那不是真的。

What will happen is, if you have something of a market economy, the wages rise, and they become more attractive to the native population.

将会发生的情况是，如果实行市场经济，工资就会上涨，对当地人来说就会变得更具吸引力。

Immigrants aren’t needed.

不需要移民。

Some of the things, if the prices rise so much, they won’t be done anymore.

有些事情，如果价格涨这么多，就不会再做了。

People won’t want them at those higher prices it would take to pay for those services.

人们不会希望以更高的价格购买这些服务。

There’s a temptation always to look for the efficient solution, the one that’s financially wise, but there are other aspects.

寻找有效的解决方案（经济上明智的解决方案）总是存在诱惑，但还有其他方面。

I think Brexit and other decisions that populations are making in the modern world are a view that there are things more important than money.

我认为英国脱欧和现代世界人们做出的其他决定是一种观点，即有比金钱更重要的东西。

I don’t think that’s ever going to change.

我认为这永远不会改变。

I think, as I’ve said before, a good economist understands that; a bad economist focuses on it.

我认为，正如我之前所说，优秀的经济学家都明白这一点；糟糕的经济学家会关注它。

An episode — I don’t know when it’s coming out.

一集 — 不知道什么时候出。

It might come out before this.

它可能会在此之前出现。

I think it’s now coming out.

我想现在已经出来了。

I can’t remember.

我不记得了。

I think it’s before this — with Megan McArdle on Roger Scruton’s book Where We Are, which is about the role that place plays in our emotional well-being and our heart and our decision-making.

我想是在这之前，与梅根·麦卡德尔 (Megan McArdle) 一起写了罗杰·斯克鲁顿 (Roger Scruton) 的书《我们在哪里》，该书讲述了地方在我们的情感健康、内心和决策中所扮演的角色。

I think those things are really important.

我认为这些事情非常重要。

People care a lot about them, especially here in Israel.

人们非常关心他们，尤其是在以色列。

Their connection to the land, their connection to their country, their sense of identity that we alluded to earlier, that I think is extremely important here.

他们与土地的联系、与国家的联系、我们之前提到的身份感，我认为这在这里极其重要。

I think Israel will make the decision.

我认为以色列会做出决定。

They might be willing to pay a price.

他们可能愿意付出代价。

Israelis might be willing to pay a higher price for a bunch of stuff to have it done by Israeli sources or not get done at all.

以色列人可能愿意为一堆东西支付更高的价格，让以色列人完成这些工作，或者根本不完成。

America’s got that same issue.

美国也有同样的问题。

It’s the same challenge.

这是同样的挑战。

A lot of people like the idea of inexpensive fruit and vegetables picked by inexpensive labor, home repairs done by inexpensive labor — all immigrant, often illegal, perhaps.

很多人喜欢用廉价劳动力采摘廉价水果和蔬菜，用廉价劳动力修理房屋——全都是移民，也许往往是非法的。

A lot of people like that.

很多人都喜欢这样。

A lot of people like what comes with that, which is more interesting life, more interesting types of people, but some people don’t like it.

很多人喜欢随之而来的东西，即更有趣的生活，更有趣的人，但有些人不喜欢它。

The fact that they’re going to pay a higher price for some things — that doesn’t surprise me, that they’re willing to make that tradeoff.

事实上，他们将为某些东西支付更高的价格 ——这并不令我感到惊讶，他们愿意做出这种权衡。

It’s an amazing thing right now in Israel.

现在在以色列，这是一件了不起的事情。

This is December 2021.

这是 2021 年 12 月。

We’ve closed our borders to the United States, which means that my youngest son can’t come visit us for winter break like he planned to.

我们已经关闭了与美国的边境，这意味着我的小儿子无法像他计划的那样来过寒假。

A lot of people can’t come to their kids’, their grandchildren’s lifecycle events.

很多人无法参加他们的孩子、孙子的生命周期活动。

Until, I’d say, about a month ago, when Omicron was just a glint in somebody’s eye or throat, people here were living a totally normal life.

我想说，直到大约一个月前，当 Omicron 只是某人眼睛或喉咙里的一抹闪光时，这里的人们过着完全正常的生活。

It’s just totally normal.

这很正常。

We have these mask mandates, like on the buses you’re supposed to wear a mask.

我们有这些口罩规定，就像在公共汽车上你应该戴口罩一样。

Even the driver’s not wearing his mask.

就连司机也没有戴口罩。

Excuse me, they’re all wearing it; nobody’s wearing it over their nose and mouth — very few.

对不起，他们都戴着它；没有人把它戴在鼻子和嘴巴上——“很少”。

The older people are, generally, but the younger people are either wearing it under their chin, maybe a little over their mouth, but not their nose.

一般来说，老年人会戴，但年轻人要么把它戴在下巴下面，也许稍微盖住嘴，但不要戴在鼻子上。

I think with Omicron, the level of anxiety has risen here, some.

我认为，有了 Omicron，这里的焦虑程度有所上升。

I assume it’s risen there where you are as well.

我想它也在你所在的地方升起。

We’ve got a gala dinner tonight.

今晚我们有一场晚宴。

There’s going to be 125 alums of this place.

这个地方将有 125 名校友。

We’ve only had five years of graduates.

我们只有五年的毕业生。

That’s the first thing I’m doing, but that’s not really your question.

这是我要做的第一件事，但这并不是你的问题。

What am I doing that I can share that’s not too secretive or important?

我正在做什么可以分享但不太秘密或不太重要的事情？

I’ll tell you another thing we’re doing, which is glorious.

我会告诉你我们正在做的另一件事，这是光荣的。

Leon Kass is our new dean of faculty.

莱昂·卡斯 (Leon Kass) 是我们的新任院长。

He’s 82.

他82岁了。

He taught the great books at the University of Chicago and St John’s for over three decades, often with his wife, Amy, who’s passed on but who is an incredible teacher also.

三十多年来，他经常与他的妻子艾米一起在芝加哥大学和圣约翰大学教授伟大的书籍，艾米已经去世，但她也是一位令人难以置信的老师。

Leon’s just an incredible visionary, educationally.

莱昂在教育方面是一位令人难以置信的有远见的人。

One of the thrills of this job is sitting in on the faculty colloquium which he started, and listening to my colleagues, my faculty members — I like saying my, our faculty members — talk about a text that they love.

这项工作的令人兴奋的事情之一就是坐在他发起的教职人员座谈会上，听我的同事、我的教职人员 ——“我喜欢说我的，我们的教职人员”——谈论他们喜欢的文本。

We have a faculty member, Assaf Inbari.

我们有一位教员，阿萨夫·因巴里 (Assaf Inbari)。

He’s a great Israeli novelist, at least I hope so.

他是一位伟大的以色列小说家，至少我希望如此。

I can’t read his books; they’re in Hebrew, they haven’t been translated yet.

我看不懂他的书；它们是希伯来语，尚未翻译。

But they’re popular, I think, among the right people.

但我认为，它们在合适的人群中很受欢迎。

Anyway, he taught a class last week and a half ago.

不管怎样，他上周半前教过一堂课。

He chose a poem by Yeats.

他选择了叶芝的一首诗。

The poem was “After Long Silence.” I am a Yeats fan.

这首诗是《长久的沉默之后》。我是叶芝的粉丝。

I love Yeats.

我爱叶芝。

I picked up this poem.

我拿起这首诗。

I looked at it, and I thought, “I’ve no idea what this poem’s about.

我看着它，心想：“我不知道这首诗在讲什么。

It’s trouble.” Then I read it again before the colloquium; I didn’t get anything out of it again.

麻烦了。”然后我在座谈会之前又读了一遍；我又没有从中得到任何东西。

For 90 minutes, we studied it with other faculty members from all different departments.

我们与来自不同院系的其他教员一起研究了 90 分钟。

I got some light, a lot of light, actually.

事实上，我得到了一些光，很多光。

It’s a beautiful poem.

这是一首美丽的诗。

It doesn’t have much rhythm to it.

它没有太多的节奏。

Its rhythm is disjointed.

它的节奏是脱节的。

Some lines are iambic pentameter, some aren’t.

有些诗句是抑扬格五音步，有些则不是。

Assaf said, “This is Yeats.

阿萨夫说：“这是叶芝。

Don’t you think he did that on purpose?

你不觉得他是故意的吗？

You don’t like the rhythm of the poem, maybe you ought to think about whether this is part of the poem.” It was an amazing, glorious experience.

你不喜欢这首诗的节奏，也许你应该考虑一下这是否是这首诗的一部分。”这是一次奇妙而光荣的经历。

That’s my favorite thing about working here — that and going to choir practice with the students here and pretending I can sing.

这是我在这里工作最喜欢的事情——和这里的学生一起练习唱诗班，假装我会唱歌。

I’m looking forward to seeing them tonight.

我期待今晚见到他们。

It’s a cheap ducking of your question, but it’s best I can do, I think.

这是对你问题的廉价回避，但我认为这是我能做的最好的事情。