Ross Douthat on Narrative and Religion (Ep. 32 - Live at Mason)

Ross is the youngest person ever to have been an op-ed columnist for the New York Times.

罗斯是《纽约时报》有史以来最年轻的专栏作家。

On Christology leading to individual liberty

论导致个人自由的基督论

And, in that story, you could argue either that liberal democracy is a kind of happy development out of original Christian ideas and Christian thoughts, or that it is a kind of rebellious stepchild who has sort of taken over the house and banished the parent to the attic.

而且，在那个故事中，你可以说自由民主是一种从原始基督教思想和基督教思想中得到的幸福发展，或者它是一种叛逆的继子，他接管了房子，把父母驱逐到阁楼。

And I guess those are views that I toggle back and forth between, depending on what seems like the state of Western liberalism at any particular moment.

我想我会在这些观点之间来回切换，具体取决于西方自由主义在任何特定时刻的状态。

What makes that intermediate position so compelling to you?

是什么让这个中间职位对您如此有吸引力？

And is it in some way an underlying feature of how you think about politics?

在某种程度上，这是否是您看待政治的基本特征？

And I think this is borne out in many ways in everyday experience.

我认为这一点在日常生活的很多方面都得到了证实。

This both-and experience of human existence.

这两者都是人类存在的体验。

The idea that you can’t split up grace and works in any kind of meaningful way.

你不能分割恩典并以任何有意义的方式工作的想法。

It’s connected to larger facts about the nature of human existence.

它与有关人类存在本质的更大事实有关。

The tension between determinism and free will that persists in any philosophical system.

决定论和自由意志之间的紧张关系在任何哲学体系中都存在。

You can get rid of God and stop having these Jansenist Jesuit arguments about predestination and so on, but you’re still stuck with the free will–determinism debate.

你可以摆脱上帝并停止这些詹森主义耶稣会关于预定论等的争论，但你仍然陷入自由意志决定论的辩论中。

That debate doesn’t go away.

这场争论并没有消失。

So, yeah, there’s a point at the intersection of different ideas that is as close to the truth as our limited minds can get and in Christian thought, we call that point orthodoxy.

所以，是的，在不同思想的交叉点上有一个点，它与我们有限的头脑所能得到的最接近真理，在基督教思想中，我们称之为正统。

Now, how that is connected to my political views is a really good question.

现在，这与我的政治观点有何联系是一个非常好的问题。

I think that a lot of the time, in politics, I suppose, I am — in certain areas of our politics, I’m looking for that point, I guess you could say.

我认为很多时候，在政治中，我想，我——在我们政治的某些领域，我正在寻找那个点，我想你可能会说。

But that’s mostly true in .

但这在大多数情况下都是正确的。

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No, I guess it’s true in a lot of places.

不，我想在很多地方都是如此。

I think that the solution to .

我认为解决方案是 .

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(maybe now we’re into more Hegelian territory rather than Christian territory), but there’s a solution to a lot of problems in some as-yet-uncertain synthesis.

（也许现在我们更多地进入了黑格尔的领域，而不是基督教的领域），但是在一些尚未确定的综合中，有很多问题的解决方案。

So I write a lot about social conservatism and abortion and feminism, and these kind of issues.

所以我写了很多关于社会保守主义、堕胎和女权主义等问题的文章。

And I do think that somewhere out there, in that zone of argument, there is a synthesis of the best social conservative ideas and the best feminist insights that I personally haven’t been able to grasp yet, and probably I’m not necessarily equipped to do so, and also that our society as a whole hasn’t grasped, but that that is where the actual truth lies.

我确实认为，在那个争论领域的某个地方，存在着最好的社会保守主义思想和最好的女权主义见解的综合体，我个人还没有能够理解，而且可能我不一定有能力这样做，而且我们整个社会还没有理解，但这就是真正的真相所在。

And you can distill it in certain slogan-ready ways, like saying, “Well, you need a more feminist pro-life movement,” or something like that.

你可以用某些口号式的方式提炼它，比如说，“好吧，你需要一场更加女权主义的反堕胎运动”，或者类似的话。

And those slogans only get you partway there.

这些口号只能让你成功一半。

But I do think that that idea of synthesis is somewhat important to the somewhat speculative political writing that I do.

但我确实认为这种综合的想法对于我所做的有些投机性的政治写作来说有些重要。

And then to be a Catholic, I think, is to believe that there is a larger body of revealed truths that have to remain as a grounding for civilization, Christian civilization, and so on, even as you grow forward towards programmatic, practical solutions and sociological solutions to new problems that emerge.

然后，我认为，成为一名天主教徒，就是要相信，有更多的已揭示的真理必须保留下来，作为文明、基督教文明等的基础，即使你朝着针对出现的新问题提出纲领性的、实用的解决方案和社会学解决方案的方向发展。

On the Old Testament

论旧约

The Marcionite thesis is, basically, if you read the New Testament, Jesus offers you a portrait of God that seems different from the portrait of God offered in Deuteronomy; therefore, these things are in contradiction.

马吉安派的论点基本上是，如果你读过新约，耶稣为你提供了一幅上帝的肖像，这似乎与申命记中提供的上帝的肖像不同；因此，这些事情是矛盾的。

Therefore, if you believe that Jesus’s portrait of God is correct, then the Deuteronomic portrait of God must be false; therefore, the God of the Old Testament must be a wicked demiurge, etc., etc. And the next thing you know, you’re ascribing to, again, a kind of .

因此，如果你相信耶稣对神的描绘是正确的，那么申命记中对神的描绘一定是错误的；因此，《旧约》中的上帝一定是一个邪恶的造物主，等等。接下来你知道的事情，你再次归因于一种……。

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What is the Aryan Christianity of the Nazis, if not the Marcionite heresy given form in the 1930s and 1940s?

如果不是 20 世纪 30 年代和 1940 年代形成的马吉安异端，那纳粹的雅利安基督教又是什么？

And so the orthodox Christian says, “No, any seeming tension between the Old Testament and the New, any seeming contradiction, is actually suggesting that we need to look for a kind of synthesis between them, and for a sense in which there is not contradiction, but fulfillment in some way, which —

因此，正统基督徒说：“不，旧约和新约之间任何表面上的张力，任何表面上的矛盾，实际上都表明我们需要在它们之间寻找一种综合，并寻找一种不存在矛盾，而是以某种方式实现的感觉，这——

The issue there, though, is just that the orthodox Christian believes that at a certain point the revelation is actually final, that God essentially doesn’t play tricks on you.

然而，问题在于，正统基督徒相信，在某个时刻，启示实际上是最终的，上帝本质上不会欺骗你。

And this is I think an important idea — that too much Hegelianism leads you to the point where you’re saying, “Well, what God is saying in one era just doesn’t hold true in another.” And that gets you to a point where there’s a kind of a dishonesty, I think, necessarily imputed to God in that scenario, that he’s sort of withholding .

我认为这是一个重要的想法——过多的黑格尔主义会导致你说：“好吧，上帝在一个时代所说的在另一个时代并不成立。”我认为，这会让你陷入一种不诚实的境地，在这种情况下，必然归咎于上帝，而他在某种程度上有所保留。

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He’s giving you a revelation, but he’s constantly withholding for the future, and I think the God that I would prefer to believe in does give .

他正在给你一个启示，但他不断地为未来保留，而我认为我更愿意相信的上帝确实给予了。

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When he says he’s giving final answers, he actually means it.

当他说他给出最终答案时，他确实是这么想的。

On the New Testament

关于新约

I mean, that’s a dangerous thing to say, because, in my position as a sort of hack journalist who writes about Catholic controversies, I’m often getting criticized by professional theologians for lacking adequate theological training, and so forth, so if I admit that I find many theologians dense and boring, that will be used against me when my book comes out in a few months.

我的意思是，这样说是一件危险的事情，因为，作为一名撰写有关天主教争议的黑客记者，我经常受到专业神学家的批评，因为我缺乏足够的神学训练，等等，所以如果我承认我发现许多神学家既晦涩又无聊，那么当我的书在几个月后出版时，这将用来对付我。

But I guess it’s too late.

但我想已经太晚了。

So, having said that — no, I think that the heart of Catholicism is found in the link between the New Testament and the form and structure and ordinary life of the church.

所以，话虽这么说——不，我认为天主教的核心在于新约与教会的形式、结构和日常生活之间的联系。

And what theologians are doing is very important, but it is far from the most interesting and essential part of the Catholic project.

神学家正在做的事情非常重要，但这远不是天主教项目中最有趣和最重要的部分。

So, to the extent that there is an aha moment for someone thinking intellectually about the connection between the New Testament and the Catholic Church, it should come in the experience of looking at the Eucharist, looking at what goes on in Catholic churches every day around the world, and connecting that to the startling and shocking and scandalous things that Jesus says about his body and blood in the New Testament, connecting it to the form of the Last Supper, connecting it to that story.

因此，如果有人从理智上思考新约和天主教会之间的联系，就会有一个顿悟的时刻，它应该来自于观看圣体圣事的经历，看看世界各地天主教堂每天发生的事情，并将其与耶稣在新约中所说的关于他的身体和血的令人震惊、震惊和可耻的事情联系起来，将其与最后的晚餐的形式联系起来，与那个故事联系起来。

And the theological commentary on all of this can be fascinating and theological controversies can be very interesting, but that, to me, the .

对所有这些的神学评论可能很有趣，神学争议也可能非常有趣，但对我来说，……

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Really, the heart of the connection between Catholicism as a religion and the startling, striking world of the New Testament lies more in liturgical life, the lives of the saints, the sort of everyday stuff of the Catholic Church rather than the abstract arguments.

事实上，天主教作为一种宗教与新约中令人震惊的世界之间的联系的核心更多地在于礼仪生活，圣徒的生活，天主教会的日常用品，而不是抽象的论点。

I’ll also say that the post-’60s Catholic theologians are also maybe a little more dense in certain ways.

我还要说，60 年代后的天主教神学家在某些方面可能也更密集一些。

There’s a good piece by Rusty Reno, who’s the editor of First Things, that he wrote a little while ago, arguing that a lot of those Catholic theologians, the ones that you read, it sounds like they’re working as critics of a sort of existing Thomistic, Thomas Aquinas–rooted foundation in Catholic theology that they felt had gotten very stale and very boring.

《第一件事》的编辑拉斯蒂·雷诺（Rusty Reno）不久前写了一篇好文章，他认为很多天主教神学家，你读到的那些，听起来像是他们正在批评天主教神学中现有的托马斯主义、托马斯·阿奎那基础，他们觉得这些基础已经变得非常陈旧和无聊。

And they were right, I think, in certain ways.

我认为他们在某些方面是对的。

But the problem is they’re also writing as if on the assumption that their reader understands this foundation that they’re operating in a landscape of critique and commentary and so on, that assumes a kind of 1880s or 1940s Catholic education in their readers.

但问题是，他们在写作时就好像假设他们的读者理解他们是在批评和评论等的环境中运作的，这假设他们的读者接受了 1880 年代或 1940 年代的天主教教育。

And so the collapse which they hastened in certain ways of that Thomistic consensus means that in certain ways their works don’t make that much sense, that they’re sort of driving forward, but there’s a missing synthesis that you need to sort of understand what they’re driving at sometimes.

因此，他们在某些方面加速了托马斯主义共识的崩溃，这意味着在某些方面他们的作品没有多大意义，他们在推动前进，但缺少一个综合，你需要理解他们有时在推动什么。

But again, that’s a more theologically learned take than my own, which sometimes matches yours.

但同样，这比我自己的观点更具神学学识，有时与你的观点相符。

On theology through narrative

通过叙述论神学

The apparent — I wouldn’t say lack of interest in theology, but you don’t write about theology much in its theological aspects.

表面上的——我不会说你对神学缺乏兴趣，但你在神学方面写的很少。

Maybe a part of the sociological narrative.

也许是社会学叙事的一部分。

But what strikes me rereading everything you’ve written as a whole is how interested you are —

但重读你写的所有内容让我印象深刻的是你是多么感兴趣——

So if you read St. Augustine, as you know, in the Confessions, he’s very skeptical about theater.

所以，如果你读过圣奥古斯丁的《忏悔录》，你就会知道，他对戏剧非常怀疑。

It’s potentially a form of idolatry; it distracts people from God.

这可能是一种偶像崇拜；它会分散人们对神的注意力。

And theology is weaker in your approach and narrative and aesthetics are stronger.

你的方法中神学较弱，叙事和美学较强。

And this strikes me ultimately as a kind of theological decision.

这最终让我觉得这是一种神学决定。

So in the Catholicism of you, what’s the theological basis of narrative and aesthetic themselves being elevated over theology?

那么，在您的天主教信仰中，叙事和美学本身被提升到神学之上的神学基础是什么？

That’s what’s been bugging me.

这就是一直困扰我的事情。

I think that you could make the argument that narrativity is the way in which God has revealed himself in the world from a Christian perspective, from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

我认为你可以提出这样的论点：叙事是上帝从基督教的角度、犹太基督教的角度向世界揭示自己的方式。

You know the Old and New Testaments contain a lot of theologizing, but they are, above all, narratives.

你知道《旧约》和《新约》包含很多神学内容，但它们首先是叙述。

They are stories of a chosen people.

它们是一个被选中的人的故事。

They are travails and betrayals and wars, and miseries, and judgments, and all the rest.

它们是痛苦、背叛、战争、苦难、审判，等等。

And then there’s a story in the New Testament that is, as the cliché goes, the greatest story ever told.

新约中有一个故事，正如俗话所说，是有史以来最伟大的故事。

And I mean I think you’re right about me — when I read the New Testament, I want to read the gospels much more than I want to read St. Paul.

我的意思是，我认为你对我的看法是对的 —— 当我读《新约》时，我更想读福音书，而不是读《圣保罗》。

And I find the gospels much more interesting than St. Paul, and that’s obviously not true of everybody, or we wouldn’t have been having wars about what Paul meant in Christianity for the last 2,000 years.

我发现福音书比圣保罗书更有趣，显然不是每个人都这样，否则我们就不会在过去的 2000 年里为保罗在基督教中的含义而争论不休。

But I think to the extent that I would defend my own instincts and my own approach — sometimes I say this to my children when I’m clumsily trying to indoctrinate them in my faith; I say “you are living inside a story, and God is the storyteller.” And again, this is not a thought original to me at all, but God is the storyteller and you are an actor within that story.

但我认为，在某种程度上，我会捍卫自己的本能和自己的方法——“有时，当我笨拙地试图向我的孩子们灌输我的信仰时，我会对他们说这句话；”我说“你生活在一个故事里，而上帝是讲故事的人。”再说一次，这根本不是我原创的想法，但上帝是故事讲述者，而你是这个故事中的演员。

And the difference is that in this story, God, Christians would say, God himself enters the story: he becomes a character in the play, which is a very difficult thing for a playwright to normally do.

不同的是，在这个故事里，上帝，基督徒会说，上帝亲自进入了故事：他成为了剧中的一个角色，这对于剧作家来说通常是一件很难做到的事情。

But that story, the fact that God is a storyteller, tells us something reasonable about how best to approach him and that it is not just OK, but completely plausible to approach him through narrative, through poetry, through art, through stories, and so on.

但这个故事，即上帝是一个讲故事的人，告诉我们如何最好地接近他，这是合理的，并且通过叙事、诗歌、艺术、故事等来接近他不仅可以，而且完全合理。

And there is a sense — I think this idea I’m stealing from Alan Jacobs, who wrote a biography of C.

有一种感觉 —— 我认为这个想法是从艾伦·雅各布斯那里偷来的，他写了一本 C.

S.

S。

Lewis — but I think there’s a real sense in which — and maybe this speaks to the failure of Western theology over the last 50 years — but Christians in the West, in the United States — well-educated, would-be intellectual Christians — tend to be heavily influenced by storytellers, heavily influenced by Lewis, heavily influenced by J.

刘易斯 ——但我认为有一种真正的意义——也许这说明了西方神学在过去50年的失败 ——但是西方的基督徒，在美国——“受过良好教育的、未来的知识分子基督徒”——往往深受讲故事的人的影响，深受刘易斯的影响，深受J.刘易斯的影响。

R.

R。

R.

R。

Tolkien, heavily influenced even by Dorothy Sayers and her detective stories, heavily influenced by Chesterton’s Father Brown stories.

托尔金甚至深受多萝西·塞耶斯和她的侦探小说的影响，也深受切斯特顿的布朗神父故事的影响。

I think it’s probably fair to say that Chesterton’s Father Brown stories had as much influence on my worldview as his more sort of polemical and argumentative writings.

我认为可以公平地说，切斯特顿的布朗神父的故事对我的世界观的影响与他更具争议性和辩论性的作品一样大。

And, again, I think therein lies some important insight that I haven’t thought through, but I think you’re correctly gesturing at, about a particular way of thinking about God and theology that isn’t unique to Christianity, but that is strongly suggested by just the structure of the revelation that we have.

再说一次，我认为其中有一些我没有思考过的重要见解，但我认为你正确地指出了一种思考上帝和神学的特定方式，这种方式不是基督教独有的，但我们所拥有的启示的结构强烈暗示了这一点。

Marilynne Robinson has a line, I think in Gilead, about — one of the characters is imagining that this life is like the epic of heaven.

玛丽莲·罗宾逊（Marilynne Robinson）有一句台词，我想是在《基列》（Gilead），讲述的是“其中一个角色想象着这一生就像天堂的史诗”。

That we’re living in the Iliad or the Odyssey of heaven.

我们生活在《伊利亚特》或《天堂奥德赛》中。

This is the story that will be told in the streets.

这就是街头巷尾流传的故事。

And I think that’s a very powerful and resonant and interesting way of thinking about our lives, but thinking about the Christian view of history that we’re living inside a very, very interesting story that people will be talking about in heaven for a long time.

我认为这是思考我们生活的一种非常有力、引起共鸣和有趣的方式，但想想基督教的历史观，我们生活在一个非常非常有趣的故事中，人们将在天堂谈论很长一段时间。

On tension between Eurocentrism and Catholicism

论欧洲中心主义与天主教之间的紧张关系

So, at the margin, how much tension do you see between a kind of Eurocentrism that’s in most of our thinking in the West, and Catholicism itself?

那么，在边缘，你认为西方大多数思想中存在的一种欧洲中心主义与天主教本身之间有多大的紧张关系？

I think that the situation in Europe is a very challenging one for anyone to think through, but particularly for a Catholic, because you have this sort of — it’s the ancestral homeland of my faith.

我认为欧洲的情况对于任何人来说都是一个非常具有挑战性的问题，特别是对于天主教徒来说，因为你有这样的“——它是我信仰的祖先故乡”。

And we’re talking about stories: the story of Catholicism is a European story for much of its history.

我们谈论的是故事：天主教的故事在其大部分历史中都是欧洲的故事。

Much of the great dramas, the great debates, and so on take place in that continent.

许多伟大的戏剧、伟大的辩论等等都发生在那个大陆。

And when I sort of think .

当我想的时候。

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When I think of figures that I identify with, when I think of sort of the writers and artists and so on that I relate to, they are primarily European just because of that synchronicity.

当我想到我所认同的人物时，当我想到与我相关的作家和艺术家等时，他们主要是欧洲人，因为这种同步性。

Because the faith is Europe, and Europe is the faith, historically.

因为信仰就是欧洲，从历史上看，欧洲就是信仰。

But now we’re in an era when that’s not really true.

但现在我们正处在一个事实并非如此的时代。

Europe is sort of a museum of Catholicism in this weird way.

欧洲以这种奇怪的方式有点像天主教博物馆。

With some exceptions, but particularly in Western Europe, it’s a museum.

除了一些例外，尤其是在西欧，它是一座博物馆。

And the culture of Europe is in certain ways hostile and becoming increasingly hostile to traditional religious faith.

欧洲文化在某些方面对传统宗教信仰充满敌意，而且越来越敌对。

And at the same time, you have this sort of alternative of Islam whose potential power and potential ability to reshape Europe is sort of ambiguous.

与此同时，伊斯兰教的另一种选择，其潜在力量和重塑欧洲的潜在能力有点模糊。

It’s not at all clear to me how powerful or how substantial that influence would be.

我根本不清楚这种影响力有多大或有多大。

And so the Catholic is sort of given, at least at the moment, this sort of strange choice.

因此，至少在目前，天主教徒被赋予了这种奇怪的选择。

Would you rather have this museum of your faith be preserved in its existing form in a sort of post-Catholic, maybe still residually Catholic situation, or would you have it be changed dramatically by the entrance into Europe of the faith that Catholicism contended with for world mastery for hundreds and thousands of years?

你愿意让你的信仰博物馆以其现有的形式保存在一种后天主教的、也许仍然是天主教的情况下，还是你想让它因天主教数百年来争夺世界统治权的信仰进入欧洲而发生巨大的改变？

That’s a strange choice to be placed to someone, I think.

我认为，对某人来说这是一个奇怪的选择。

And it’s further complicated by the fact that sort of overshadowing that particular tension is the reality that a large share of the potential long-term migration to Europe could be from Catholic and evangelical portions of Africa.

使情况变得更加复杂的是，现实是，潜在的长期移民中很大一部分可能来自非洲的天主教和福音派地区，这一事实掩盖了这种特殊的紧张局势。

It sort of adds a further layer of dilemma.

这在某种程度上又增加了一层困境。

And so my reaction to Merkel’s move — it sits at one remove from that debate.

因此，我对默克尔此举的反应与这场辩论无关。

My reaction to Merkel’s move was very much as sort of a political analyst who thinks to myself, stability is better than chaos.

我对默克尔此举的反应非常像一位政治分析家，他认为，稳定比混乱好。

As flawed as the liberal order is in various ways, I want it to hold up.

尽管自由主义秩序在很多方面都存在缺陷，但我希望它能够持续下去。

Therefore I don’t want leaders to make these big, dramatic moves that I think could have an obviously destabilizing impact.

因此，我不希望领导人采取这些重大的、戏剧性的举措，我认为这些举措可能会产生明显的不稳定影响。

So I’ve been skeptical for a long time of the sort of extreme sort of Mark Steyn or beyond–Mark Steyn analysis that Europe is inevitably going to go Muslim and so on.

因此，很长一段时间以来，我一直对马克·斯坦恩或其他马克·斯坦恩的极端分析持怀疑态度，即欧洲将不可避免地走向穆斯林化等等。

But having Merkel make a decision like she did sort of pushes me slightly in a Steynian direction, probably.

但让默克尔做出像她那样的决定，可能有点把我推向了斯泰尼亚的方向。

It makes me think Europe’s elites are not reckoning with how big, how fast demographic transformations can change societies, divide societies, create space for all kinds of extremisms to flourish.

这让我觉得欧洲的精英们并没有考虑到人口结构的转变能够以多大、多快的速度改变社会、分裂社会，为各种极端主义的蓬勃发展创造空间。

That’s sort of my columnist’s pundit answer.

这就是我的专栏作家的专家回答。

But I don’t know exactly how to connect it to this deeper question of what kind of future of Europe, given the available options, should a Catholic desire.

但我不知道如何将其与这个更深层次的问题联系起来：考虑到现有的选择，天主教徒应该渴望什么样的欧洲未来。

Because to some extent, if you’re asking me would I rather Europe be atheistic and sort of effectively anti-Catholic for the next 1,000 years, or rather have it be Muslim — perhaps I’d rather have it be Muslim, right?

因为在某种程度上，如果你问我，我是否愿意欧洲在未来 1000 年里成为无神论者并有效地反天主教，或者更愿意让它成为穆斯林——也许我宁愿它成为穆斯林，对吗？

From a Catholic perspective, a sincere Islamic faith is preferable to a truly post-Catholic landscape.

从天主教的角度来看，真诚的伊斯兰信仰比真正的后天主教景观更可取。

But at the same time, we’re not being fully presented with that choice, either.

但与此同时，我们也没有完全面临这样的选择。

So, anyway, I’m just suggesting various uncertainties, I guess.

所以，无论如何，我想我只是提出各种不确定性。

I think if I were playing the optimist, I would say that there is a Euro-African future for the church where African forces, African migration, African ideas, African leaders help renew and enrich and return European Catholics to their faith.

我想，如果我是乐观主义者，我会说教会有一个欧洲-非洲的未来，非洲力量、非洲移民、非洲思想、非洲领导人帮助欧洲天主教徒更新、丰富和回归他们的信仰。

And you can find small, strange examples of this.

你可以找到一些小的、奇怪的例子。

Like Robert Sarah, who is this Guinean cardinal who is seen as a partial antagonist to Pope Francis in certain intra-Catholic debates.

就像几内亚红衣主教罗伯特·萨拉（Robert Sarah）一样，他在某些天主教内部的辩论中被视为教皇方济各的部分反对者。

He went to the Vendée in France for the anniversary of the Vendée and gave a speech there hailing the resistance of Catholics to the revolutionary regime in France in the 18th century, which is kind of this extraordinary moment, not anything you would have imagined 150 years or 200 years ago.

他前往法国旺代省参加旺代省周年纪念活动，并发表演讲，赞扬天主教徒对 18 世纪法国革命政权的抵抗，这是一个非同寻常的时刻，不是你在 150 年前或 200 年前想象到的。

And a kind of moment that, yeah, lets you briefly imagine that kind of — that there could be a Catholicism that revived certain European elements in the process of becoming more African.

是的，在某个时刻，你可以简单地想象一下，在变得更加非洲化的过程中，可能存在一种天主教，它复兴了某些欧洲元素。

But that’s a very, from a Catholic perspective, optimistic view, and the likelihood is that things will be more chaotic and messier and so on.

但从天主教的角度来看，这是一个非常乐观的观点，而且事情很可能会变得更加混乱和混乱等等。

But ultimately my first loyalty is or tries to be to the church rather than to European culture, so I would certainly take an African Catholicism over the museum that we have in Europe today.

但最终我的首要忠诚是或试图忠诚于教会，而不是欧洲文化，所以我肯定会选择非洲天主教而不是我们今天在欧洲拥有的博物馆。

On the merits of Islam

论伊斯兰教的优点

I think for the synthesis, I guess when I think about the synthesis in that case, I gave it quite a low probability because it seems to me that Judaism and Christianity make — and, again, this comes back to the storytelling issue maybe — but I think there’s a more organic and obvious unity in that story than there is in the combined story.

我认为对于综合，我想当我考虑这种情况下的综合时，我给了它相当低的概率，因为在我看来，犹太教和基督教使得“并且，这又回到了讲故事的问题”，但我认为这个故事比组合故事有更有机和明显的统一。

So I think for the .

所以我认为对于.

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I don’t think I have a certain answer; I can tell you things — as I just, I suppose, started to — that I admire within the Muslim world.

我认为我没有确定的答案；我可以告诉你一些我在穆斯林世界中钦佩的事情——我想我刚刚开始这么做。

But I can’t tell you definitely, and this is I guess why I am a Christian and not a Muslim.

但我不能明确地告诉你，这就是我猜我是基督徒而不是穆斯林的原因。

I can’t tell you what I think — how I think that story would fit together.

我无法告诉你我的想法——我认为这个故事如何组合在一起。

If God’s revelation to Muhammad were as definitive a revelation as the revelations of Christianity and Judaism, I can’t make that story work; so the story then has to be bigger.

如果上帝对穆罕默德的启示与基督教和犹太教的启示一样明确，我就无法让这个故事成立；所以故事必须更大。

I guess that for there to be a Judeo-Christian-Islamic synthesis, then it does await some further revelation that would make more sense of the Islamic story to me.

我想，要实现犹太教、基督教、伊斯兰教的综合，就需要等待一些进一步的启示，让我对伊斯兰教的故事有更多的理解。

On Opus Dei

论主业团

If I look at the Catholic Church, there’s a movement, as you know, called Opus Dei.

如果我看看天主教堂，有一个运动，如你所知，称为主业会（Opus Dei）。

The priests of that movement, they seem to be less caught up in sex scandals.

作为该运动的牧师，他们似乎较少陷入性丑闻。

Parts of the movement seem to have some understanding of what you might broadly call conservative economics.

该运动的部分成员似乎对所谓的保守经济学有一定的了解。

In Spanish politics in the ’30s, ’40s, and ’50s they were actually considered a liberalizing force, so they don’t have to be seen as reactionary per se.

在20世纪30年代、40年代和50年代的西班牙政治中，他们实际上被认为是自由化力量，因此他们本身不必被视为反动势力。

Why aren’t they simply the good guys?

为什么他们不只是好人呢？

They don’t come up much in your writings.

它们在你的著作中并没有太多出现。

I’m reading you and I think, “Where’s Opus Dei?”

当我读到你的文章时，我想：“主业团在哪里？”

The central idea, and with apologies to Opus Dei members if I’m getting this at all wrong, but the central idea is that it’s a ministry.

中心思想，如果我完全理解错了，请向主业团成员道歉，但中心思想是这是一个事工。

It’s an apostolate for laypeople who are at work in the business world, the journalism world, the corporate world, the communications world, and so on.

它是为商业界、新闻界、企业界、传播界等工作的外行人士的使徒。

And as such, I think it has an admirable and important vocation in the life of the world and the life of the church.

因此，我认为它在世界生活和教会生活中具有令人钦佩和重要的使命。

But it seems to me in part that there is a sort of .

但在我看来，部分地存在着某种。

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There’s a kind of, not set-apartness exactly, but there’s an element of .

有一种，不完全是分开的，但有一个元素。

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Well, I think a big part of the crisis in Catholicism in the last 60 or 70 years can simply be distilled to a collapse in the sense of the importance of religious life, of consecrated life, of the priesthood, religious orders, sisters and brothers, and so on.

嗯，我认为过去 60 或 70 年天主教危机的很大一部分可以简单地归结为宗教生活、奉献生活、神职人员、宗教团体、兄弟姐妹等重要性的崩溃。

And it’s as easy for me to say because I did not become a priest and so it’s always easier once you haven’t become a priest to say, “Oh, well, you need more people to become priests.” But to the extent that that’s true, Opus Dei seems like it’s very well tailored in certain ways to secular society as it exists right now.

对我来说这很容易说，因为我没有成为牧师，所以一旦你还没有成为牧师，说“哦，好吧，你需要更多的人成为牧师”总是更容易。但就这一点而言，主业团似乎在某些方面非常适合目前存在的世俗社会。

But I think the ultimate revival of the church is likely to come from a slightly more radical view of the proper relation to the world — that essentially what the church needs now is the equivalent of the Franciscans, the Dominicans, the Jesuits, these kind of orders from previous eras that are sort of .

但我认为教会的最终复兴很可能来自于对与世界的正确关系的稍微更激进的观点——教会现在需要的基本上是方济各会、多明我会、耶稣会，这些来自以前时代的命令，有点……。

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I mean, Opus Dei asks laypeople to take vows of various kinds; celibate laypeople are part of the Opus Dei structure.

我的意思是，主业会要求平信徒发各种誓言；独身平信徒是主业团结构的一部分。

And I think that there is .

我认为是有的。

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Essentially, there is just a straightforward need for a more old-fashioned model of just priests and nuns.

从本质上讲，只是直接需要一种由牧师和修女组成的更老式的模式。

The church needs more priests and nuns.

教会需要更多的神父和修女。

Catholicism can’t function without priests and nuns, which doesn’t take anything away from what Opus Dei is doing and, of course, they have many vocations and many priests.

没有神父和修女，天主教就无法运作，这并没有影响主业团正在做的事情，当然，他们有很多圣召和神父。

But yeah, to the extent that it doesn’t get the due maybe that it deserves in my writings, that’s probably, maybe, the root of it.

但是，是的，如果它在我的著作中没有得到应有的重视，这可能就是它的根源。

Again, you’re teasing out things I haven’t even begun to think about before, which is .

再说一次，你在梳理我以前从未开始思考过的事情，那就是。

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There’s no particular reason why.

没有什么特别的原因。

The sacramental life of the church depends on a strong priesthood, depends on men becoming priests; it depends on religious orders and so on.

教会的圣礼生活有赖于强大的祭司职任，有赖于男人成为祭司；这取决于宗教秩序等等。

And so full revival in the church would need a priestly center to it, in a way, and not just a focus on sort of apostolates and evangelization within the world.

因此，教会的全面复兴在某种程度上需要一个祭司中心，而不仅仅是关注世界范围内的使徒和福传。

Catholicism has been caught up in the idea that this is the Age of the Laity for the last 50 or 60 years.

过去 50 或 60 年来，天主教一直坚信这是平信徒时代。

I think the Age of the Laity has kind of been a disaster for the church in certain ways.

我认为平信徒时代在某些方面对教会来说是一场灾难。

On conservatism with religion

论保守主义与宗教

How would you respond to that?

你对此有何反应？

And, in that sense, Christianity can only be conservative in sort of provisional and context-bound ways, right?

而且，从这个意义上说，基督教只能以某种临时的、受环境限制的方式保守，对吗？

In a culture that was universally Christian and is in the process of ceasing to be so, then Christianity — then the phrase “conservative Christian” makes a lot of sense, in the sense that you have a universal faith that has taken over a particular piece of the world, and you’re trying to sort of preserve its influence and power over that piece.

在一个普遍基督教并且正在不再是基督教的文化中，那么基督教 ——那么“保守基督教”这个词就很有意义，因为你有一个普遍的信仰，它已经接管了世界的某个特定部分，并且你试图在某种程度上保留它对该部分的影响和权力。

But that’s always contingent and temporary.

但这总是偶然的和暂时的。

And, yes, Christianity is at its root a more radical religion.

是的，基督教从根本上来说是一种更为激进的宗教。

On Watership Down

沃特希普号沉没时

It’s connected, in a sense, to the kind of things that the Straussians are always arguing about and so on.

从某种意义上说，它与施特劳斯派总是争论的事情有关等等。

What does the founding mean, and so on?

成立意味着什么等等？

But you have a group of rabbits who go forth and encounter different models of political order, different ways of relating to humankind, that shadow over rabbit-kind at any point.

但是，有一群兔子，他们前进并遇到不同的政治秩序模式，与人类相处的不同方式，这些阴影在任何时候都笼罩在兔子身上。

You have a warren that has essentially surrendered itself to humanity and exists as a kind of breeding farm, and you have a warren that’s run as a fascist dictatorship essentially.

你有一个基本上屈服于人类并作为一种养殖场存在的沃伦，并且你有一个本质上作为法西斯独裁统治的沃伦。

And then you have this attempt to form a political community that is somewhere in between the two, getting back to the Hegelian synthesis and so on.

然后你试图形成一个介于两者之间的政治共同体，回到黑格尔的综合等等。

And you have sort of this primal narrative where the problem is of course that they don’t have any females, and so there’s this competition, this competition for reproductive power that’s carried out between these different warrens where the rabbits from the good warren have to literally — not kidnap, because the does come willingly — but steal women from the fascist dictatorship, which maintains a ruthless control over reproduction.

你有这样一种原始的叙述，问题当然是它们没有任何雌性，所以存在着这种竞争，这种在这些不同的饲养场之间进行的繁殖力竞争，来自好饲养场的兔子必须真正地“不是绑架，因为它们确实是自愿的”而是从法西斯独裁政权中偷走女性，法西斯独裁政权对繁殖保持着无情的控制。

So there’s just a lot of fascinating stuff there, and then it’s all interspersed with storytelling.

所以那里有很多令人着迷的东西，然后都穿插着讲故事。

There’s the sort of rabbit folktales that Richard —

有一种兔子的民间故事，理查德——

— that Richard Adams came up with, that are just brilliant, about El-ahrairah, the great rabbit folk hero, and his relationship.

——理查德·亚当斯（Richard Adams）提出的关于伟大的兔子民间英雄 El-ahrairah 和他的关系的非常棒。

There is actually the rudiments of a rabbit theology in Watership Down.

实际上，《沃特希普镇》中已经有了兔子神学的雏形。

And then there’s even, right, there’s even a mystical element.

甚至，对，甚至还有神秘的元素。

The book begins with this rabbit Fiver, who is sort of a runt, who has visions — and the whole founding is based on various prophecies and visions that he has throughout the beginnings of this rabbit warren, that these rabbits go out and found.

这本书以这只兔子菲弗开始，他有点矮，有愿景——整个建立是基于他在这个兔子窝的开始阶段所拥有的各种预言和愿景，这些兔子出去发现了这些。

So he has a vision of apocalypse, so there’s an Aeneid element, clearly, where — probably he uses quotes from the Aeneid; he has quotes before every chapter — where the city falls and you have to go found a new city and there’s religious visions along the way that relate to the legitimacy of the founding.

所以他有一个世界末日的愿景，所以显然有一个埃涅阿斯纪元素，其中 - 可能他引用了《埃涅阿斯纪》中的引述；他在每一章之前都有引言——“城市陷落的地方，你必须去寻找一座新城市，沿途有与建立的合法性相关的宗教愿景。”

And there’s a tension between .

并且之间存在紧张关系。

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Sorry, I’m rambling, but you got me going here.

抱歉，我有点胡言乱语，但你让我走到这里。

There’s this great tension between Hazel and Bigwig, who are the two leaders of the city that’s being founded, and Bigwig is — he was a member of the Owsla, which is the rabbit martial order.

海泽尔和比格维格这两个正在建立的城市的领导人之间存在着巨大的紧张关系，而比格维格是“Owsla”的成员，这是兔子军事组织。

And everyone assumes when they meet this group of rabbits that he is the leader, but in fact the leader is Hazel, who is this rabbit who is neither the visionary nor the military leader, but just — he’s the politician, and he’s good at it, and the success of the warren is based on ultimately the subordination of Bigwig, and the martial, and the religious to the politicians.

当每个人遇到这群兔子时，每个人都认为他是领导者，但事实上，领导者是黑兹尔，他就是这只兔子，他既不是有远见的人，也不是军事领袖，而只是——他是政治家，而且他很擅长，而沃伦的成功最终是基于大佬、军事和宗教对政治家的从属。

So the next time you have Peter Thiel here for one of these conversations, you can really press him on if there’s a Girardian element in Watership Down.

因此，下次当你邀请彼得·泰尔来进行此类对话时，如果《沃特希普坠落》中有吉拉德元素，你真的可以向他施加压力。

There’s a lot further to go with this, but I’ve probably gone far enough.

这方面还有很多工作要做，但我可能已经走得足够远了。

The next time you have Peter Thiel here for one of these conversations, you can really press him on if there’s a Girardian element in Watership Down.

下次当你邀请彼得·泰尔来进行此类对话时，如果《沃特希普镇》中有吉拉德元素，你真的可以向他施加压力。

On cats

关于猫

I was a cat person who admired their singular standoffishness, and so on.

我是一个喜欢猫的人，很欣赏它们独特的冷漠态度，等等。

I think in certain ways writing the book about cats brought her around to something closer to my view.

我认为在某些方面，写这本关于猫的书让她更接近我的观点。

She started the book shortly after we started having children and one of the interesting things that she realized was how much of her reaction to cats was a displaced child reaction; that cats have these faces that look like infants’ faces and have the eyes and the wide faces, and they meow in this way that approximates an infant’s cry, and they essentially hijack the maternal instinct.

我们开始生孩子后不久，她就开始写这本书，她意识到一件有趣的事情是，她对猫的反应有多少是流离失所的孩子的反应；猫的脸看起来像婴儿的脸，有眼睛和宽阔的脸，它们的喵叫方式类似于婴儿的哭声，它们本质上劫持了母性本能。

So she had sort of maternal feelings towards cats, but in the process of having actual children and writing the book, I think she came to an appreciation of them more as these fascinating apex predators.

所以她对猫有一种母性的感情，但在生下真正的孩子和写这本书的过程中，我认为她更多地欣赏它们，因为这些迷人的顶级掠食者。

That’s sort the theme of the book, which you should all read.

这就是这本书的主题，你们都应该读一读。

It’s much more interesting than late 20th-century Catholic theology.

它比 20 世纪末的天主教神学有趣得多。

On things under- and overrated

关于被低估和高估的事情

Let’s start with the TV show The Sopranos.

让我们从电视节目《黑道家族》开始。

Overrated or underrated?

被高估还是被低估？

And it’s more personal and psychological.

而且它更个人化和心理化。

I mean it is .

我的意思是它是。

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The characters on The Wire are fascinating, but they are .

《火线》中的角色很迷人，但他们确实是。

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When you meet them you know who they are.

当你见到他们时，你就知道他们是谁。

It is Dickensian in that sense; the sort of endless jokes about the Dickensian element on The Wire are right.

从这个意义上来说，它是狄更斯式的。 《火线》中关于狄更斯元素的那种没完没了的笑话是正确的。

And Dickens is a great novelist and The Wire is a great show, but there’s a depth to much of The Sopranos that I think is not equaled by The Wire and hasn’t quite been equaled in any show since.

狄更斯是一位伟大的小说家，《火线》是一部很棒的剧，但《黑道家族》的大部分深度我认为是《火线》无法比拟的，而且此后的任何剧都无法与之相比。

So —

所以——

But only very — people love The Wire, so it can only be very slightly underrated — I mean people love The Sopranos.

但只有非常 —— 人们喜欢《火线》，所以它只能被略微低估 —— 我的意思是人们喜欢《黑道家族》。

The Wire is a great show, but there’s a depth to much of The Sopranos that I think is not equaled by The Wire and hasn’t quite been equaled in any show since.

《火线》是一部很棒的剧，但《黑道家族》的很多深度我认为是《火线》无法比拟的，而且此后的任何剧都无法与之媲美。

But no, the period that produced Waugh and Greene and a lot of those writers is in certain ways one of my favorite periods in modern literature.

但不，产生沃和格林以及许多这样的作家的时期在某些方面是我最喜欢的现代文学时期之一。

And even the writers in that era who are not practicing Catholics seem to me to be influenced in different ways, like Hemingway and Fitzgerald in different ways.

在我看来，即使是那个时代那些不信奉天主教的作家也受到不同方式的影响，比如海明威和菲茨杰拉德以不同的方式受到影响。

For instance, Hemingway is writing in a Catholic cultural context in a lot of his stories and Fitzgerald is, of course, a lapsed Catholic of a certain kind.

例如，海明威在他的许多故事中都是在天主教文化背景下写作的，而菲茨杰拉德当然是某种已经失信的天主教徒。

So I think Catholicism hangs in an interesting way over that whole first-half-of-the-20th-century period of literature.

所以我认为天主教以一种有趣的方式贯穿了整个 20 世纪上半叶的文学时期。

And I think that’s the best recent period of literature, so I’ll claim some chauvinistic pride.

我认为这是最近最好的文学时期，所以我会声称有一些沙文主义的自豪感。

On Dante’s Inferno, the next Great Awakening, and Sam’s Club Republicans

关于但丁的地狱、下一次大觉醒和山姆俱乐部共和党人

And, of course in sort of a narrow, moment-by-moment way during the campaign, if you followed my mostly wrong commentary during Trump’s march to the nomination, I was all for sort of elite energy being expended in that moment to block Trump.

当然，在竞选期间，如果你在特朗普竞选提名期间遵循了我大部分错误的评论，那么我完全赞成在那一刻消耗精英能量来阻止特朗普。

And the point of elites is to prevent manifestly unfit people from becoming president.

精英的目的是防止明显不适合的人成为总统。

But, if there is a larger systemic elite failure, then things like that will happen.

但是，如果出现更大的系统性精英失败，那么类似的事情就会发生。

And so the way to avoid that situation is for elites to focus — again, to care about what’s going on with the demos.

因此，避免这种情况的方法是精英们再次集中注意力，关心演示的进展情况。

With the actual people out in actual America.

与真实的美国人民一起。

And that’s something I don’t think Republicans were very good at before Trump, and I don’t think it’s something they’re particularly good at under Trump.

我认为在特朗普之前共和党人并不擅长这一点，而且我也不认为在特朗普领导下他们特别擅长这一点。

But, I think, had they been better at it, the Trump phenomenon would at least have been different than it was.

但我认为，如果他们做得更好，特朗普现象至少会有所不同。

I think that we’re — that to me is a more immediate source of anxiety than genetic engineering.

我认为我们——对我来说，这是比基因工程更直接的焦虑来源。

I think that we’re going to wake up in 20 or 30 years and be — well, we may not wake up, but I would like to think that we’ll wake up in 20 or 30 years and say — “Why were we putting all of our children in front of these screens for so much of their childhood and shouldn’t this be something that we had exerted actual control over instead of just leaving it to some combination of experiment and market forces and governments wanting to be hip and cool and buying a lot of Chromebooks that Microsoft wanted to unload,” and so on.

我认为我们会在 20 或 30 年后醒来，然后说：“好吧，我们可能不会醒来，但我想我们会在 20 或 30 年后醒来，然后说：“为什么我们让所有的孩子在童年的大部分时间都在这些屏幕前，这难道不应该是我们实际控制的事情，而不是仅仅把它留给实验、市场力量和政府的某种组合吗？想要变得时尚、酷，购买了很多 Microsoft 想要卸载的 Chromebook，”等等。

And so I could see something similar happening with genetic technology, but I think bringing technology under control so that the more radical genetic experiments are limited and happening in, happening at the margins, basically, that should be the goal.

所以我可以看到类似的事情发生在基因技术上，但我认为将技术置于控制之下，以便更激进的基因实验受到限制并发生在边缘，基本上，这应该是目标。

I think it doesn’t mean that we could actually succeed, but I think it’s a reasonable goal to set.

我认为这并不意味着我们真的可以成功，但我认为这是一个合理的目标设定。

On being open to weird ideas

对奇怪的想法持开放态度

This folds in religion, so I apologize; it’s cheating a little bit.

这与宗教有关，所以我道歉；这有点作弊。

But we spent a lot of time .

但我们花了很多时间。

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My mother had health issues when I was young, and we ended up as religious as we were in part because of healing services that she went to because she was ill or because she had friends who recommended them.

我年轻时，我母亲有健康问题，我们最终变得虔诚，部分原因是她因为生病而去接受治疗服务，或者因为她有朋友推荐这些服务。

But there was a wider orbit to that where we ate health food long before health food was cool.

但还有一个更广泛的轨道，即我们在健康食品流行之前很久就开始吃健康食品了。

We ate tofu, and you could only get tofu by going to the back of a weird health-food store, and it would be in these vats of water, and you’d pick up these huge blocks of tofu with tongs, like people pulling icebergs out of 19th century ponds in Vermont.

我们吃豆腐，你只能去一家奇怪的保健食品店后面才能买到豆腐，而且豆腐就在这些水桶里，你会用钳子夹起这些巨大的豆腐块，就像人们从佛蒙特州 19 世纪的池塘里拉出冰山一样。

And so I would say that between the religious element and the strange world of health food .

所以我想说的是，在宗教元素和保健食品的奇怪世界之间。

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You’d go to a health-food store and you’d have the health-food restaurant here, and you’d have the New Age bookstore next to it — they’d always be attached — and you would always have the same books.

你去一家保健食品店，这里就有一家保健食品餐厅，旁边就有一家新时代书店 —— 它们总是相连的 —— 而且你总是会看到同样的书。

You’d have the Utne Reader and all those kinds of magazines.

你会有 Utne Reader 和所有这些类型的杂志。

But at the same time I was having in certain ways a conventional upper-middle-class, southern-Connecticut background.

但与此同时，我在某些方面拥有传统的康涅狄格州南部的中上层阶级背景。

And I think I had that weird combination of normalcy in certain ways, religious experiments over here, dietary experiments that blended into weird cultural experiments over there.

我认为我在某些方面有一种奇怪的常态组合，这里的宗教实验，饮食实验融入了那里奇怪的文化实验。

It gave me generally an appreciation for the weird diversity of America, that I think I wouldn’t have gotten if my mother hadn’t been ill and sought out strange cures and so on.

它让我对美国奇怪的多样性有了普遍的认识，我想如果我的母亲没有生病并寻求奇怪的治疗方法等等，我就不会得到这种认识。

And it also gave me an appreciation for the fact that there can be things that are true about the universe that are not available through the experience of expert consensus and so on.

这也让我认识到，宇宙中可能有一些真实的东西是无法通过专家共识等经验获得的。

We were very much outside the mainstream during my childhood.

在我的童年时期，我们完全脱离了主流。

And the fact that there was a lot of lies and nonsense and BS outside the mainstream, but there were also things that I’ve held onto and think were true, that’s had a fairly powerful effect on my thinking.

事实上，主流之外有很多谎言、废话和废话，但也有一些我坚持认为是真实的事情，这对我的思考产生了相当大的影响。

We were very much outside the mainstream during my childhood.

在我的童年时期，我们完全脱离了主流。

And the fact that there was a lot of lies and nonsense and BS outside the mainstream, but there were also things that I’ve held onto and think were true, that’s had a fairly powerful effect on my thinking.

事实上，主流之外有很多谎言、废话和废话，但也有一些我坚持认为是真实的事情，这对我的思考产生了相当大的影响。

Not always — like with the anti-vaccine debates, for instance.

并不总是如此——例如，就像反疫苗辩论一样。

The anti-vaccine side seems to me to be pretty much just wrong and obviously dangerous in certain ways and so on.

在我看来，反疫苗一方几乎是错误的，并且在某些方面显然是危险的等等。

But there is always a small part of my mind and experience that wants to stick up for the anti-vaccine side, which I don’t do in the pages of the New York Times because there is no compelling argument I can see, and it does a disservice to millions of children to make an argument that people shouldn’t vaccinate their kids.

但我的思想和经验中总有一小部分想要坚持反对疫苗的一面，但我不会在《纽约时报》的版面上这么做，因为我看不到令人信服的论据，而且提出人们不应该给孩子接种疫苗的论点对数百万儿童来说是一种伤害。

That’s all true, and well, and good.

这都是真的，而且很好。

But something like the anti-vaccine crusade will be proven correct.

但像反疫苗运动这样的事情将被证明是正确的。

There are weird ideas out there right now that are actually true.

现在有一些奇怪的想法实际上是正确的。

And I think the strangeness of my childhood, that’s something that I carry with me as an assumption.

我认为我童年的奇怪之处是我随身携带的一种假设。

How people pronounce your last name: What does it tell you about their class backgrounds or otherwise?

人们如何发音你的姓氏：它告诉你他们的阶级背景或其他方面的什么信息？

I do think there is absolutely no question that people who have lived experience of totalitarianism, which I do not, thankfully, tend to fear anything that smacks of totalitarian impulses, and so to the extent that there’s .

我确实认为，毫无疑问，经历过极权主义的人（谢天谢地，我没有经历过极权主义）往往会害怕任何带有极权主义冲动的东西，所以在某种程度上……。

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I’m not sure about the Geraldo case, but…

我不确定杰拉尔多案的情况，但是……

His seemed more like a self-justification for a life badly lived, but to the extent that there is actually something there, then, yeah, I think it’s a normal reaction to being traumatized by authoritarianism.

他看起来更像是对糟糕生活的自我辩解，但如果确实有一些东西存在的话，那么，是的，我认为这是对受独裁主义创伤的正常反应。

On the Ross Douthat production function

关于 Ross Douthat 生产函数

You became famous at a very young age; you’ve published four books; youngest New York Times op-ed columnist ever.

你很小的时候就出名了；你已经出版了四本书； 《纽约时报》有史以来最年轻的专栏作家。

The last two years you’ve even had health problems; you’ve continued to be, as far as I can tell, as productive as ever.

过去两年你甚至出现了健康问题；据我所知，你一如既往地高效。

What is the Ross Douthat production function?

Ross Douthat 生产函数是什么？

What is your productivity secret that maybe is undervalued by other people?

您可能被其他人低估的生产力秘诀是什么？

There’s plenty that goes into what you produce, but what would be an insight you would share with us as to how you get this all done?

您的作品涉及很多内容，但是您会与我们分享关于如何完成这一切的见解吗？

And, I don’t know, you also .

而且，我不知道，你也是。

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I mean, journalism, you go to events with wonderful hosts and audiences and so on and people sometimes introduce you as a public intellectual.

我的意思是，新闻业，你去参加一些活动，有很棒的主持人和观众等等，人们有时会把你介绍为公共知识分子。

Sometimes they even say “thought leader,” and that’s the worst.

有时他们甚至说“思想领袖”，这是最糟糕的。

But journalism is a trade, right?

但新闻业是一种贸易，对吗？

I mean there is obviously an intellectual component.

我的意思是，这显然有一个智力成分。

And we wouldn’t have been able to sit here and have this conversation with me babbling at you if I didn’t have intellectual pretensions.

如果我没有知识分子的自命不凡，我们就不可能坐在这里和我对你胡言乱语。

But the work of journalism — this is less true in the age of the internet — but it is linked to a very physical thing that comes out every week, or every month, or every day, and it comes out and it has to be filled.

但新闻工作 ——在互联网时代，情况就不那么真实了—— 但它与每周、每月或每天都会出现的非常物质的东西联系在一起，它出现了，就必须被填补。

There is a place on the New York Times, on the printed New York Times, that would be blank or have an ad stuck on it if I didn’t write my column.

《纽约时报》上，印刷版《纽约时报》上有一个地方，如果我不写专栏，那地方就会是空白的，或者上面贴着广告。

And so you write the column.

所以你写了这个专栏。

You write the column.

你写专栏。

And it’s useful for journalists to think about it this way — it’s useful for anyone inclined to over-romanticize or over-admire journalists to think about it this way.

对于记者来说，这样思考是有用的——对于任何倾向于过度浪漫化或过度崇拜记者的人来说，这样思考是有用的。

But there is a sense in which writing a column is — it’s like you’re a plumber.

但从某种意义上说，写专栏就像你是一名水管工。

The toilet has to be fixed, so you fix the toilet.

厕所要修，所以你修厕所。

The column has to be written, so you write the column.

专栏必须写，所以你写专栏。

And getting lost .

并且迷路了。

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There’s another version of myself that was going to write novels —

我的另一个版本是要写小说——

Certainly I like to imagine that — or at least something that sold as well as George R.

当然，我喜欢想象——或者至少是和乔治·R·布什一样畅销的东西。

R.

R。

Martin.

马丁.

But it also might be the case that if I had spent my life sitting around with my unfinished novels, I never would have produced anything interesting.

但也可能是这样，如果我一生都坐在未完成的小说上，我永远不会写出任何有趣的东西。

And so it’s better to be a tradesman, and that’s at least part of how I think about my job.

因此，最好是成为一名商人，这至少是我对自己工作的部分看法。

There’s another version of myself that was going to write novels…but it also might be the case that if I had spent my life sitting around with my unfinished novels, I never would have produced anything interesting.

我的另一个版本是要写小说……但也可能是这样，如果我一生都坐在未完成的小说上，我永远不会写出任何有趣的东西。

And so it’s better to be a tradesman, and that’s at least part of how I think about my job.

因此，最好是成为一名商人，这至少是我对自己工作的部分看法。

Q&A

问答

But you would clearly have a sort of deep religious resistance to the technology, to the practice, to that sort of severing, and you would have strong cultural resistance to it independent of religion.

但显然，你会对技术、实践、这种分割产生一种深刻的宗教抵制，而且你也会对它产生独立于宗教的强烈文化抵制。

I think there would be a strong anti-artificial-womb .

我想会有很强的反人工子宫的作用。

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As in the crunchy bookstores of my childhood, there would be a left-wing, hippyish resistance to it as well.

就像我童年时在脆脆的书店里一样，也会有左翼、嬉皮士式的抵制。

The question would be, How would that resistance to it interact with this possibility that here you have a technocratic solution to the abortion debate?

问题是，对堕胎辩论的抵制与技术官僚解决堕胎辩论的可能性如何相互作用？

But I’ll say I’m a little skeptical that, if you imagine .

但我会说我有点怀疑，如果你想象的话。

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Again, it depends; how do you get to the artificial womb point?

同样，这取决于；如何到达人工子宫点？

Is it something where — are you imagining a world where a woman gets pregnant and somehow the embryo is removed from her body and placed into the womb?

这是不是……你想象一个女人怀孕后胚胎以某种方式从她体内取出并放入子宫的世界？

That seems .

看来。

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requiring a level of technological intervention that would raise a host of the same privacy concerns and so on that motivate certain portions of the pro-choice side.

需要一定程度的技术干预，这会引起许多相同的隐私问题，等等，从而激发支持堕胎一方的某些部分。

Or are you envisioning a world where you have artificial wombs and everyone is provisionally sterilized at age 14?

或者你是否正在想象一个拥有人工子宫并且每个人在 14 岁时都进行临时绝育的世界？

This becomes the state policy, and so on?

这成为国家政策等等？

So you could imagine a pro-life totalitarianism that emerged out of some combination of technologies.

所以你可以想象一种反堕胎极权主义是由一些技术组合产生的。

All of which is to say I don’t have a brilliant answer for your question, but I think there would be a lot of very strange and different cross currents that the people most inclined to make the pro-life argument right now would be disinclined to immediately run with whatever political possibilities had presented, but also that the nature of the technology, its level of invasiveness and what making it work would mean, would in turn determine where liberalism went, and so on.

所有这些都是说，我对你的问题没有一个出色的答案，但我认为会有很多非常奇怪和不同的交叉潮流，现在最倾向于提出反堕胎论点的人们将不愿意立即接受任何政治可能性，而且技术的本质、其侵入性程度以及使其发挥作用意味着什么，将反过来决定自由主义的走向，等等。

It’s interesting in that Mormon sexual ethics have repeatedly brought them into conflict with the dominant American culture.

有趣的是，摩门教的性道德一再与美国主流文化发生冲突。

That fact and that reality is a sign that there exists some interesting tension between Mormonism and America as a whole.

这一事实和现实表明，摩门教和整个美国之间存在着一些有趣的紧张关系。

But nonetheless, Mormonism is — both in its actual lived experience and its theology — is unimaginable without .

但尽管如此，如果没有……，摩门教——无论是在其实际生活经验还是神学上——都是不可想象的。

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It has an American essence.

它有美国的精髓。

There’s no more American figure in certain ways than Joseph Smith.

在某些方面，没有人比约瑟夫·史密斯更适合美国。

The entire Mormon theology is built around an attempt .

整个摩门教神学都是围绕着一种尝试而建立的。

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We were talking earlier about how could you integrate Islam, Judaism, and Christianity into one story, and I was failing to give Tyler a good answer.

我们之前讨论过如何将伊斯兰教、犹太教和基督教整合到一个故事中，但我未能给泰勒一个好的答案。

Mormonism is an attempt to do that, not with three religious traditions, but with the Americas.

摩门教试图做到这一点，不是针对三种宗教传统，而是针对美洲。

How do you integrate the Americas into what seems like the Old World–dominated story of Judaism and Christianity?

你如何将美洲融入到看似旧世界主导的犹太教和基督教故事中？

And that is .

那就是。

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To the extent that Mormonism is out to solve a problem, it’s to solve the problem of what about the Americas?

就摩门教是为了解决问题而言，它是为了解决美洲的问题？

What about all this world over here?

这里的世界又如何呢？

In that way and various others that I could go on listing, I think the tensions between Mormonism and the dominant American culture still leaves it quintessentially American, just as .

通过这种方式以及我可以继续列出的其他各种方式，我认为摩门教与美国主流文化之间的紧张关系仍然使其具有典型的美国特色，就像……

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Let’s say, the drug culture of the late 1960s was in tension with bourgeois American society at that point, but Woodstock — there’s nothing more American than Woodstock.

比方说，20 世纪 60 年代末的毒品文化与当时的美国资产阶级社会关系紧张，但伍德斯托克音乐节——没有什么比伍德斯托克音乐节更美国化了。

And in the same way, even when it’s in tension with whatever else is going on in the culture, there’s nothing more American than the Latter Day Saints.

同样地，即使它与文化中正在发生的其他事情发生冲突，没有什么比后期圣徒更美国化了。

But it was also an argument sort of geared to satisfy the slightly sclerotic ideological preconceptions of the Republican party, and sitting here before you fine people tonight, I’ll just say the goal of the child tax credit is to help people have more babies.

但这也是一种旨在满足共和党稍微僵化的意识形态先入之见的论点，今晚坐在你们面前，我只想说儿童税收抵免的目标是帮助人们生更多的孩子。

That should be the actual goal and when the Wall Street Journal accuses it of being social engineering — it is social engineering, and I’m happy to admit it, and maybe there’ll be a Wall Street Journal editorial about this tomorrow.

这应该是真正的目标，当《华尔街日报》指责它是社会工程时——它就是社会工程，我很高兴承认这一点，也许明天《华尔街日报》会发表一篇关于此的社论。

But I think in the same way that the Wall Street Journal’s preferred economic policies, which they hope will spur entrepreneurship and new hiring and business formation and all these things, are also social engineering in a certain way.

但我认为，《华尔街日报》偏爱的经济政策（他们希望这些政策能够刺激创业、新的招聘和企业组建以及所有这些事情）在某种程度上也是社会工程。

I don’t think that you can .

我认为你做不到。

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I don’t believe in some pristine separation of the economic sphere (which isn’t social engineering) and your tax policies (aren’t social engineering) from the family.

我不相信经济领域（这不是社会工程）和税收政策（不是社会工程）与家庭的某种原始分离。

The baseline is, I’m in favor of giving people money to help them have the babies that they want to have.

底线是，我赞成给人们钱来帮助他们生下他们想要的孩子。

Now, would the child tax credit have accomplished that to the extent that it would have much effect?

那么，儿童税收抵免是否能够实现这一目标并产生很大的影响呢？

I would say it was a bare and very minimal effect.

我想说这只是一个赤裸裸的、非常微小的影响。

I think if you look at the literature, you need something much, much larger to have any hope of moving the needle.

我认为如果你看一下文献，你需要一些非常非常大的东西才能有希望取得进展。

But I wouldn’t say it’s symbolic.

但我不会说这是象征性的。

I think it’s a step in the direction that I would like American society to take, which would take us towards something that wasn’t a $2,000 per child tax credit, but a $5,000 per child tax credit and so on, even upward from there.

我认为这是朝着我希望美国社会采取的方向迈出的一步，这将带领我们迈向每名儿童 2,000 美元的税收抵免，而是每名儿童 5,000 美元的税收抵免等等，甚至更高。

So those are my maximalist ambitions.

这些就是我的最高目标。

Now, it is also true that cultural forms and assumptions and so on play a much more important shaping role in all this, and it might be the case that even if you got to my ideal number that it wouldn’t move the dial that much.

现在，文化形式和假设等在这一切中确实发挥着更重要的塑造作用，而且可能出现的情况是，即使你达到了我的理想数字，它也不会改变太多。

But in that case, I would still favor it in part as a means of .

但在这种情况下，我仍然倾向于将其部分作为一种手段。

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I think there’s value in building the foundations in political economy for the cultural changes that you wish to see even if those changes haven’t arrived yet.

我认为为你希望看到的文化变革奠定政治经济学基础是有价值的，即使这些变革尚未到来。

So it might be that the child tax credit’s effect would be counteracted by the deranging influence of screams on people’s romantic lives, or something.

因此，儿童税收抵免的效果可能会被尖叫对人们浪漫生活等的混乱影响所抵消。

That might be the case.

情况可能就是这样。

But then the child tax credit would still be there waiting for the Butlerian Jihad of the future.

但儿童税收抵免仍将在那里等待未来的巴特勒圣战。

But until the moment arrives when we get a handle on our technological problems and achieve some cultural shift.

但直到我们解决技术问题并实现某种文化转变的那一刻到来。

But anyway, yes, the long story short, at least on the roster of plausible policies, that would be the policy that I would offer.

但无论如何，是的，长话短说，至少在看似合理的政策名册上，这将是我将提供的政策。

And I think the goal is to .

我认为目标是。

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It probably wouldn’t have that much influence in its existing form, but the goal would be to get to a form where it did have a chance of having influence.

以现有的形式，它可能不会有那么大的影响力，但目标是达到一种它确实有机会产生影响力的形式。

To me, one of .

对我来说，其中之一。

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I referenced the essential radicalism of Christianity, and obviously Catholicism has not been, in political practice, a radical force at every moment in human history.

我提到了基督教本质上的激进主义，显然，在政治实践中，天主教并不是人类历史上每一个时刻的激进力量。

But one of the great things about the Catholic Church and one of the things that makes me think the probabilistic game that Tyler somehow induced me to play online, one reason I give it a high probability of being the one true church is that there are these core, very strange and radical things that Jesus says and does that are sustained in the life of the church in ways that they haven’t been in other Christian denominations and churches and one of those is the Eucharist, the idea of transubstantiation, the idea that you are literally consuming the body and blood of Christ.

但天主教会的伟大之处之一，也是让我想到泰勒以某种方式诱导我在网上玩的概率游戏的原因之一，我认为它很有可能成为唯一真正的教会的原因之一是，耶稣所说和所做的这些核心、非常奇怪和激进的事情在教会的生活中以其他基督教教派和教会所没有的方式持续存在，其中之一就是圣体圣事，变质的想法，你实际上是消耗基督的身体和血。

Another of them is this .

其中另一个是这个。

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another thing I referenced earlier: this persistence of priestly, religious, monastic vocations, this idea of Christianity as a counterculture to the point where it is actively turning its back on family life in certain ways and retaining this space for a radical core, a radical witness.

我之前提到的另一件事：这种对牧师、宗教、修道院职业的坚持，这种基督教作为反主流文化的观念，以至于它以某种方式积极地背弃家庭生活，并为激进的核心、激进的见证人保留了这个空间。

And another of them is the teaching on marriage and divorce, which in the context of the New Testament is clearly presented as a kind of radicalization of Jewish law on marriage and divorce, and the church has maintained that radical perspective.

其中另一个是关于婚姻和离婚的教导，在新约的背景下，这显然是犹太婚姻和离婚法的一种激进化，而教会一直保持着这种激进的观点。

And I think it’s done so in fidelity to the man that we think was the Son of God, and I would prefer it to continue to maintain that fidelity rather than softly give it up.

我认为这样做是为了忠于我们认为是上帝之子的人，我更希望它继续保持这种忠诚，而不是轻易放弃。

But the Butlerian Jihad is this rebellion against .

但巴特勒圣战正是针对这种叛乱。

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I think it is, maybe you can correct me, but it’s AI more that it’s a rebellion against, rather than computers per se, or is it .

我认为是的，也许你可以纠正我，但它更多的是对人工智能的反叛，而不是对计算机本身的反叛，或者是……。

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My view for a short-term Butlerian Jihad is much more limited and boring.

我对短期巴特勒圣战的看法更加有限和无聊。

I think that people should limit or reduce or eliminate the use of computers and screens and digital devices for children and in schools up to a certain age.

我认为人们应该限制、减少或消除儿童和学校中特定年龄以下的计算机、屏幕和数字设备的使用。

And I’m flexible and could argue about what that age should be.

我很灵活，可以争论这个年龄应该是多少。

But I think that young childhood certainly should not be a place .

但我认为，童年肯定不应该是一个地方。

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I think that young human beings should be given a sustained encounter with actual physical and social reality before being placed in front of a screen.

我认为年轻人在被放置在屏幕前之前应该持续接触实际的身体和社会现实。

And I think that that should be educational common sense.

我认为这应该是教育常识。

And that we’ve gone in the opposite direction is an unfortunate thing.

我们走向了相反的方向是一件不幸的事情。

So, I think you start with that and then we can talk about future steps.

所以，我认为你可以从这个开始，然后我们可以讨论未来的步骤。

Like, I don’t know, yeah.

就像，我不知道，是的。

We can talk.

我们可以谈谈。

I don’t want to suggest any, in case I’m quoted out of context, but you can imagine next steps.

我不想提出任何建议，以防我被断章取义，但你可以想象接下来的步骤。

We’ll just stick with that educational step first.

我们首先会坚持教育步骤。

There’s something about consciousness that we don’t understand, obviously.

显然，关于意识，有些东西我们不理解。

And I’m very skeptical of the idea that we’re just going to get through some Moore’s law doubling .

我对我们将要经历摩尔定律翻倍的想法非常怀疑。

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we’re going to a recognizable consciousness by accident; Skynet is going to become self-aware or something.

我们会偶然地进入一个可识别的意识；天网将会变得有自我意识什么的。

I think that there would have to be some remarkable breakthrough, and I don’t know what the nature of the breakthrough would be, but I think it would at least contribute something to theological debates about the mind’s place in the cosmos.

我认为必须有一些显着的突破，我不知道突破的本质是什么，但我认为它至少会对关于心灵在宇宙中的位置的神学辩论做出一些贡献。

With that being said, I think the effect of social media is its .

话虽这么说，我认为社交媒体的效果是它的。

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Tyler had an interesting — you had an interesting post about this today or yesterday.

泰勒有一个有趣的 ——你今天或昨天有一篇关于这个的有趣的帖子。

And, as a journalist, I feel like I’m often called upon by people in my non-journalistic social circle to sort of reassure them.

而且，作为一名记者，我觉得我经常被非新闻社交圈中的人要求安抚他们。

And of course they’re no longer reassured because during the last election I kept telling them that Trump wasn’t going to be the Republican nominee.

当然，他们不再放心，因为在上次选举期间，我一直告诉他们特朗普不会成为共和党提名人。

And that he probably wasn’t going to be the president.

而且他可能不会成为总统。

So my level of reassurance has been limited by that.

所以我的保证程度因此受到限制。

But I feel like I see a lot of people in my social orbit who aren’t journalists who seem to be — they’re sort of pushed to the edge of panic constantly by what they see in the news and on social media.

但我觉得我的社会轨道上有很多人不是记者，他们似乎是——他们经常被新闻和社交媒体上看到的内容推向恐慌的边缘。

And then they’ll write to me and ask me to explain what’s really going on, which I may not always be able to do.

然后他们会写信给我，要求我解释到底发生了什么，但我可能并不总是能做到。

But to the extent that there’s sort of an obligation for journalists, it’s often, I think, that obligation — to walk people back from the edge of panic, in certain ways.

但就记者的某种义务而言，我认为，这种义务通常是——以某种方式将人们从恐慌的边缘拉回来。

But in terms of its effect on us, it’s a little hard for me to say, because I wasn’t really a journalist before — I was a little bit; I wasn’t on Twitter probably till 2011, so I had some pre-Twitter understanding.

但就它对我们的影响而言，我有点很难说，因为我之前并不是真正的记者 —— 我有一点；我可能直到 2011 年才使用 Twitter，所以我对 Twitter 之前有一些了解。

I mean Twitter .

我指的是推特。

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It’s a forum .

这是一个论坛。

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It’s such a journalist-specific forum in certain ways, it’s so geared towards journalistic culture and everyone is on there arguing with each other and sharing stories with each other and so on.

在某些方面，这是一个专门针对记者的论坛，它非常适合新闻文化，每个人都在那里互相争论并互相分享故事等等。

And at its best, I think, it gives people a little more sense of the inner workings of journalism in certain ways, to the extent that I don’t want to be all doom and gloom.

我认为，在最好的情况下，它可以让人们在某些方面对新闻业的内部运作有更多的了解，以至于我不想陷入悲观和沮丧的境地。

There is a virtue in being exposed to watching journalists share stories and have those stories partially discredited and walk back stories and argue over stories and so on.

目睹记者分享故事、部分质疑这些故事、回顾故事、争论故事等等，这是一种美德。

There’s probably value in demystifying some of the work that we do.

揭开我们所做的一些工作的神秘面纱可能是有价值的。

But I assume that it can’t help, but have a kind of .

但我认为它没有帮助，但有一种。

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It furthers already-existing groupthink among journalists and it has a deranging effect on us.

它进一步加剧了记者中已经存在的群体思维，并对我们产生了混乱的影响。

And one of the big challenges (and we were talking about this before the conversation) is figuring out what is real and what is just Twitter.

最大的挑战之一（我们在谈话之前就讨论过这一点）是弄清楚什么是真实的，什么只是 Twitter。

And at what point does just Twitter become what’s real?

那么什么时候 Twitter 才能成为真实的呢？

Right?

正确的？

Because so much of what I do and what people in my profession do is we’re watching a world that’s happening online, even as we’re trying to describe a world that exists offline.

因为我和我这个行业的人们所做的很多事情都是在观察一个在线发生的世界，即使我们试图描述一个离线存在的世界。

And I am often puzzled by the connection between the two.

我常常对两者之间的联系感到困惑。

I can’t tell: How real is the Alt-Right?

我无法判断：另类右翼有多真实？

That is a question that is very hard for me to answer because the Alt-Right is very real on the internet.

这个问题对我来说很难回答，因为另类右翼在互联网上非常真实。

It doesn’t seem to be particularly real in reality, but maybe social media is reality, or at some point it becomes reality, and then it doesn’t even matter what’s happening out in the real world.

在现实中似乎并不是特别真实，但也许社交媒体就是现实，或者在某个时刻它变成了现实，然后现实世界中发生的事情就不再重要了。

I’m not sure, but we’re — at the very least we are at a point there seems to be some huge disproportion between the importance of a phenomenon on social media and its ability to get any number of men .

我不确定，但我们——至少我们正处在这样一个时刻：社交媒体上的一种现象的重要性与其吸引任意数量男性的能力之间似乎存在着巨大的不成比例。

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Like, Richard Spencer has the same 60 people showing up for all his events.

就像理查德·斯宾塞 (Richard Spencer) 一样，有 60 人参加他的所有活动。

He can do something, he and others can do something like Charlottesville, but there isn’t a mass movement of the Alt-Right.

他可以做一些事情，他和其他人可以做一些像夏洛茨维尔这样的事情，但没有另类右翼的群众运动。

And there are more profiles of Alt-Right leaders in liberal publications than there are avowed Alt-Righters who will actually show up and carry a tiki torch.

自由派出版物中对另类右翼领导人的介绍，比实际出现并举着提基火炬的公开的另类右翼分子还要多。

And so the question is, But does nonetheless the Alt-Right phenomenon allow us to see some buried psychological reality among white Americans?

所以问题是，尽管如此，另类右翼现象是否能让我们看到美国白人中一些隐藏的心理现实？

Maybe it does, but it’s just very hard to tell.

也许确实如此，但很难说。

But there I tend take the sociological argument that I gestured at in answering one of the earlier questions.

但在那里，我倾向于采用我在回答早期问题之一时所指出的社会学论点。

That for the church to give up on the elevation of celibacy, in a way that large-scale married priests inevitably would be seen as doing, would not be a likely source of revitalization and revival in the long run.

从长远来看，教会放弃独身主义的提升，大规模已婚牧师不可避免地会被视为这样做，这不太可能成为复兴和复兴的源泉。

It would represent the church surrendering on a point where it offers something that it is the most contradictory to the dominant culture.

这将代表教会在提供与主流文化最矛盾的东西上投降。

And giving up something that I think is in many ways one of its most valuable countercultural teachings: that a life can be lived well without having sex.

并放弃了我认为在很多方面都是其最有价值的反文化教义之一的东西：即使没有性生活也可以过得很好。

So, in that sense, while there isn’t a doctrinal and dogmatic barrier to it per se (though some people argue that there is), but I think that it would be trading the promise of renewal for the reality of effective cultural surrender in certain ways, which is something I think the church has done on a number of fronts.

因此，从这个意义上说，虽然它本身不存在教义和教条障碍（尽管有些人认为存在），但我认为它将以某些方式用更新的承诺换取有效文化投降的现实，我认为教会在许多方面都做了这件事。

On the question of female priests, I think that there it’s a simpler issue.

关于女牧师的问题，我认为这是一个更简单的问题。

The church probably could be read into my view of aesthetics and narratives as well as everything else.

教堂或许可以解读为我对美学、叙事以及其他一切的看法。

But the argument that Jesus chose only men for the priesthood I think is ultimately less powerful than the argument that God chose Jesus to be his son and he chose to be .

但我认为耶稣只选择男人担任祭司的论点最终不如上帝选择耶稣作为他的儿子而他选择成为他的儿子的论点有力。

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to perform the central liturgical predecessors of what became Catholic Christianity in the form of a man, and therefore the enactment of the sacrifice of the mass depends on priests who can stand in the person of Jesus Christ and that it makes sense for them to be men.

以人的形式执行天主教基督教的核心礼仪前身，因此弥撒祭祀的制定取决于能够代表耶稣基督的牧师，并且他们成为男人是有意义的。

That doesn’t mean that the church could not — and here I’ll do the Hegelian synthesis thing — it doesn’t mean that the church could not in its governing structures and in the way that the church functions in Rome and elsewhere could not integrate women more fully into the actual governance of the church; I think it can and it should.

这并不意味着教会不能——“在这里我将做黑格尔综合的事情”——这并不意味着教会不能在其治理结构以及罗马和其他地方的教会运作方式中无法将妇女更充分地纳入教会的实际治理；我认为可以而且应该。

But my preference would be for that integration to happen through a revival of female religious orders and nuns.

但我更倾向于通过女性宗教团体和修女的复兴来实现这种融合。

I would much rather have many more nuns in positions of power in Rome than laymen and laywomen.

我宁愿有更多的修女在罗马担任权力职务，而不是平信徒和平信徒。

And again, maybe that’s some strange sort of aesthetic preference as much as it is anything else.

再说一次，也许这与其他任何事情一样都是某种奇怪的审美偏好。

But I think that it would be a more certain path to renewal for the church to find a way to .

但我认为，教会找到一条更确定的更新之路。

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Yeah, to have a kind of female activism that comes through a revival of the female religious tradition in the church, rather than a sort of attempt to do what Episcopalians and others have already attempted and shift the understanding of the nature of what the priest is in trying to do the mass itself.

是的，通过教会中女性宗教传统的复兴来实现一种女性激进主义，而不是试图做圣公会和其他人已经尝试过的事情，并改变对神父试图做弥撒本身的本质的理解。

Illustration by Sloane Shearman

斯隆·谢尔曼的插图