Rick Rubin on Listening, Taste, and the Act of Noticing (Ep. 169 - BONUS)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I am here with Rick Rubin, the Rick Rubin, who was one of the greatest musical producers.
今天我和里克·鲁宾一起来到这里，里克·鲁宾，他是最伟大的音乐制作人之一。
He has worked with, among many others, Jay-Z, Kanye, Public Enemy, many of the stars of early rap music, many of the stars of heavy metal, AC/DC, Red Hot Chili Peppers—five albums there—Dixie Chicks, Johnny Cash, Tom Petty, Mick Jagger, Neil Young, Adele, and many more.
他曾与 Jay-Z、Kanye、Public Enemy、许多早期说唱音乐明星、许多重金属、AC/DC、Red Hot Chili Peppers 明星合作过（其中有五张专辑），还有 Dixie Chicks、Johnny Cash、Tom Petty、Mick Jagger、Neil Young、Adele 等等。
And he has done an amazing two-hour Hulu special with Paul McCartney.
他还与保罗·麦卡特尼一起制作了令人惊叹的两小时 Hulu 特别节目。
But most notably, as of late this January, Rick has a new book out, a fascinating look at creativity, called The Creative Act: A Way of Being.
但最值得注意的是，今年一月下旬，里克出版了一本新书，对创造力进行了精彩的审视，书名为《创意行为：一种存在方式》。
Rick, welcome.
瑞克，欢迎。
Thank you for having me, sir.
谢谢你邀请我，先生。
What can we all do to become better listeners?
我们可以做些什么来成为更好的倾听者？
I mean to other human beings, not of music, not yet.
我指的是其他人，不是音乐，目前还不是。
I would start with the thought to truly hope to understand what the other person is saying.
我会从真正希望理解对方在说什么的想法开始。
Most of us, when listening, are formulating an opinion, either in response—what are we going to say in response?
我们大多数人在倾听时都会形成一种观点，或者作为回应——我们要说什么作为回应？
What do I think about this?
我对此有何看法？
Or looking for something to disagree with, or a piece to latch onto.
或者寻找一些不同意的东西，或者一个可以抓住的东西。
We take a little piece and then tune out from what’s being said.
我们只听一小段，然后就不再听别人说的话了。
Any ability to turn our own filters off, forget about what we think, not be analytical at all, and only listen with the idea of truly understanding what the person is communicating.
任何关闭我们自己的过滤器、忘记我们的想法、根本不进行分析、只带着真正理解对方正在沟通的想法来倾听的能力。
Then asking questions if there’s anything that we don’t completely understand or anything that might be different, anything that seems odd that the person is saying.
然后询问对方是否有任何我们不完全理解的内容或任何可能不同的内容，以及该人所说的任何看起来奇怪的内容。
I’m not saying challenge them.
我并不是说挑战他们。
I’m saying, “Oh, why is that the case?
我说：“哦，为什么会这样呢？
How did you get to that?”
你是怎么做到这一点的？
When we truly open ourselves to people, they tell us everything, and we can learn a tremendous amount.
当我们真正向人们敞开心扉时，他们会告诉我们一切，我们可以学到很多东西。
Whatever I know is from talking to people.
我所知道的一切都是通过与人交谈而得来的。
Reading, talking to people.
读书，与人交谈。
We get information from outside of ourselves.
我们从外部获取信息。
We’re not making it up.
我们不会弥补。
It’s not starting in us.
它不是从我们开始的。
So, we are doing a disservice when we’re listening to someone and we’re formulating what’s going to happen next or judging them—anything like that.
因此，当我们在倾听某人的意见并制定接下来会发生什么或评判他们之类的事情时，我们就是在伤害他人。
In music, what is it you do to become a better listener to the music?
在音乐方面，你如何才能成为更好的音乐聆听者？
I think it just comes out of a love of doing it.
我认为这只是出于对这样做的热爱。
Spending time with my eyes closed, listening to something—I did through my whole childhood.
花时间闭上眼睛，听一些东西——我的整个童年都是这样做的。
My deepest connection to anything was music.
我与任何事物最深的联系就是音乐。
It just comes through love and devotion.
它只是通过爱和奉献来实现的。
What is the listening moment in actual Buddhist music that interests you the most?
在实际的佛教音乐中，您最感兴趣的聆听时刻是什么？
Say it one more time.
再说一次。
The listening moment in actual Buddhist music or Buddhist-inspired music.
聆听真正的佛教音乐或佛教音乐的时刻。
For me, it’s Tibetan sacred music, but for you, it might be something else.
对我来说，这是西藏的神圣音乐，但对你来说，它可能是别的东西。
What is that moment in listening to such music that grabs your attention the most?
听这样的音乐时，最吸引你注意力的时刻是什么？
I think it’s different at different times.
我认为不同时期有不同的情况。
The sound of a chime or Tibetan bowl, and listening to how it changes over time, and how it dissipates, and how it hangs in the air for a period of time that seems impossible, and how we can hear it get quieter and quieter and quieter.
编钟或藏碗的声音，听它如何随着时间的推移而变化，如何消散，如何在空中悬挂一段看似不可能的时间，以及我们如何听到它变得越来越安静。
It gets so quiet eventually, you can’t tell—are we still hearing it anymore?
最终变得如此安静，你无法分辨——我们还能听到它吗？
There’s something about what is and isn’t here that comes up through that experience of questioning our own senses of what we’re hearing and what we’re not hearing.
关于这里存在和不存在的一些东西，是通过质疑我们自己对听到和没有听到的感觉的经历而产生的。
I like that feeling.
我喜欢那种感觉。
You talked about that hanging sensation from Tibetan bowl music.
你谈到了藏族钵乐中那种悬挂的感觉。
What is a moment of hanging or near-hanging silence in so-called popular music that you find fascinating?
在所谓的流行音乐中，有哪些令人着迷的悬而未决或近乎悬而未决的沉默时刻？
Let me think about this a bit.
让我想一下。
I would say the closest thing that comes up is in classical music, in the different interpretations of the same pieces.
我想说最接近的事情是在古典音乐中，在对同一首曲子的不同解释中。
When you’re familiar with what’s coming, and it doesn’t happen the way you think it’s going to happen.
当你熟悉即将发生的事情时，它不会按照你想象的方式发生。
It’s written, and the notes are the same notes.
写好了，笔记也是同样的笔记。
The first one that came to mind was Glenn Gould’s early version and later versions of the Variations.
我首先想到的是格伦·古尔德的变奏曲的早期版本和后期版本。
In the early one, it’s played very quickly, a great deal of dexterity.
在早期，它演奏得非常快，非常灵巧。
In the later one, there are times when the next note seemingly never comes.
在后者中，有时下一个音符似乎永远不会到来。
It’s fascinating.
这很有趣。
I actually prefer that one.
我其实更喜欢那个。
That gives me that same feeling of the notes hanging in space.
这给了我与悬挂在太空中的音符相同的感觉。
It’s also interesting that the rhythms change, where once we understand a certain rhythm that the notes come in—we learn that in learning how a song goes—to hear them come in a different rhythm, it’s fascinating.
节奏的变化也很有趣，一旦我们理解了音符出现的某种节奏——我们在学习歌曲如何进行时了解到——听到它们以不同的节奏出现，这是令人着迷的。
It really just lights up things in the brain.
它真的只是点亮了大脑中的东西。
I believe that later Gould recording is 79 minutes, whereas the first Gould recording is 45 minutes.
我相信后来的古尔德录音是79分钟，而第一张古尔德录音是45分钟。
Some of that is adding the repeats, but he’s also playing much more slowly.
其中一些是增加重复次数，但他的演奏速度也慢得多。
Yes.
是的。
I feel like in the speed, in the slowness of it, there’s so much more emotion between the notes that we can feel.
我觉得在速度和缓慢中，我们可以感受到音符之间有更多的情感。
The earlier one is a showier rendition, and the later one is more of a soulful rendition for me.
前一首对我来说是一种更华丽的演绎，而后一首对我来说更是一种深情的演绎。
As a music producer, what do you think of the 17 minutes of silence before the final track on Nirvana’s Nevermind album?
作为一名音乐制作人，您对 Nirvana 专辑《Nevermind》最后一首歌前的 17 分钟默哀有何看法？
I think it’s cool.
我认为这很酷。
Anything that breaks the norm is interesting.
任何打破常规的事情都是有趣的。
It forces the listener to engage in the music in a different way.
它迫使听众以不同的方式参与音乐。
The purpose of something like that is to feel like the album’s over, and you’re going about your business, and you forget you’re even listening to it.
这样做的目的是让你感觉专辑已经结束了，你正在忙你的事，而你甚至忘记了你正在听它。
Then you’re surprised by this thing that happens.
然后你会对发生的这件事感到惊讶。
It forces you to pay attention in a way that doesn’t come so naturally.
它迫使你以一种不那么自然的方式集中注意力。
It essentially tricks the audience into forgetting that they were listening to music.
它本质上是欺骗观众忘记他们正在听音乐。
How have you been influenced by the painter Mondrian?
您是如何受到画家蒙德里安的影响的？
Broadway Boogie-Woogie by Piet Mondrian
皮特·蒙德里安 (Piet Mondrian) 的百老汇布吉伍吉 (Boogie-Woogie)
He’s one of the painters that really spoke to me when I was going to film school.
当我上电影学校时，他是真正与我交谈的画家之一。
I remember being fascinated by the geometric shapes, the particular colors, the way it made me feel, and the fact that I was living in New York at that time, and it had an urban sensibility.
我记得我对几何形状、特殊的颜色、它给我的感觉很着迷，而且当时我住在纽约，它有一种城市感。
It almost felt like a subway map.
感觉就像一张地铁地图。
There was something about it that just spoke to me, that changed my understanding of what fine art could be.
它有一些东西对我说话，改变了我对美术的理解。
Now, as you know, the New York avant-garde of the ’50s and ’60s was greatly influenced by John Cage.
如你所知，20世纪50年代和60年代的纽约先锋派深受约翰·凯奇的影响。
You’re coming a bit later, coming of age in the ’80s.
你来得晚一点，是八十年代的成年人。
Is that an influence on you as well?
这对你也有影响吗？
And if so, what did you take from Cage?
如果是这样，你从凯奇那里得到了什么？
One of the greatest things I can remember reading was a story in Cage’s book.
我记得读过的最伟大的事情之一是凯奇书中的一个故事。
I think it’s called Silence.
我想这就是所谓的沉默。
He tells a story where he’s driving.
他讲述了一个他开车的故事。
He’s on his way to do a Q&A.
他正在去参加问答的路上。
He was going over the five answers that he prepared that he would use randomly for whatever questions were asked.
他正在检查他准备的五个答案，无论提出什么问题，他都会随机使用这些答案。
I just thought that was beautifully Cageian.
我只是觉得那是美丽的凯吉安。
It was beautiful that his philosophy extended past his music to a way of being in the world.
他的哲学超越了他的音乐，延伸到了一种存在于世界的方式，这真是太美妙了。
I really appreciated that.
我真的很感激。
What does it mean to have a moment of silence or near silence in rap music—which seems to always be moving, right?
说唱音乐中的片刻沉默或近乎沉默意味着什么——说唱音乐似乎总是在动人，对吗？
Does that work?
那有用吗？
A moment of silence in your silence?
在你的沉默中沉默片刻？
No, in rap music.
不，在说唱音乐中。
Yes.
是的。
You could definitely have a moment of silence.
你绝对可以沉默片刻。
I’m sure I’ve produced records that have moments of silence in them, where we’re doing a transition from one energetic feel to another.
我确信我制作的唱片中都有沉默的时刻，我们正在从一种充满活力的感觉过渡到另一种充满活力的感觉。
There’s one that comes to mind.
我想到了一个。
I think it’s on a Beastie Boys’ album, where there’s a certain rhythm pattern going for a period of time.
我认为这是 Beastie Boys 的一张专辑，其中有一段特定的节奏模式。
Then the song stops, and then a new thing starts.
然后歌曲停止，然后新的事情开始。
It’d be like a reprise of sorts, but similar to what we discussed with the Goldberg Variations, it comes back in half-time or a much slower rendition to what was happening before to shed new light on it.
这就像某种重演，但与我们讨论的《哥德堡变奏曲》类似，它会在中场休息时回归，或者以更慢的速度再现之前发生的事情，以提供新的线索。
What from non-Western music has influenced you the most?
非西方音乐中的什么对你影响最大？
I think minimalism in general.
我认为总体上是极简主义。
I would say minimalism in art has probably influenced my taste, and my taste influences the work that I make.
我想说艺术中的极简主义可能影响了我的品味，而我的品味又影响了我所做的作品。
The idea of trying to use the least amount of information to get a point across.
尝试使用最少的信息来表达观点的想法。
I would say, also, poetry probably has had an impact in that same way.
我还想说，诗歌可能也产生了同样的影响。
What do you think of pygmy vocal music?
您如何看待俾格米人的声乐？
Like the Tuvan music?
喜欢图瓦音乐吗？
No. It’s a lot of hocketing.
不，这有很多曲折。
It’s not throat singing.
这不是喉咙唱歌。
I’m not aware of it.
我不知道。
Highly complex.
高度复杂。
You should look into pygmy vocal music.
你应该研究一下侏儒声乐。
I’ll send you the reference afterwards.
之后我会把参考资料发给你。
Please send it to me.
请发给我。
Thank you.
谢谢。
What have you learned from Sherlock Holmes stories?
你从福尔摩斯的故事中学到了什么？
To look closely at things, to look deeper, to pay attention, to notice what maybe others aren’t noticing.
仔细观察事物，看得更深入，注意，注意到别人可能没有注意到的事情。
How exactly do you characterize his special skill?
您如何评价他的特殊技能？
Because to the outside reader, it seems like he’s making things up.
因为对于外部读者来说，这似乎是他在编造的事情。
Are those acts of creativity on Holmes’s part, or are they acts of noticing?
这些是福尔摩斯的创造力，还是注意到的行为？
I think they’re the same thing.
我认为它们是同一件事。
I think creativity is acts of noticing.
我认为创造力是注意的行为。
Nothing comes from us.
没有任何东西来自我们。
The creator isn’t making the thing.
创造者并没有创造这个东西。
The creator is recognizing the thing, noticing the thing, and then sharing it in a way where the audience can hopefully get a glimpse of what we’ve noticed.
创作者正在认识这个事物，注意到这个事物，然后以一种让观众能够瞥见我们所注意到的方式来分享它。
Is contemporary music too loud?
现代音乐太大声了吗？
There’s a brightness to the sound, right?
声音有亮度，对吧？
Especially digital production.
尤其是数字化生产。
It doesn’t bother me one way or the other.
不管怎样，它都不会打扰我。
I like music that sounds good.
我喜欢听起来不错的音乐。
There’s some music that I think sounds very aggressive and abrasive and essentially too loud that really works.
我认为有些音乐听起来非常激进、粗暴，而且声音太大，但确实有效。
Probably I don’t listen to very much of that music, but I would say if I was looking for a particular energy in music, whatever would sound too far in that world would probably sound right to me.
也许我不太听那种音乐，但我会说，如果我在音乐中寻找一种特定的能量，那么在那个世界中听起来太遥远的东西可能对我来说听起来很合适。
Do you think the widespread advent of streaming threatens the economic viability of a successful ecosystem for musical production and sale?
您认为流媒体的广泛出现是否会威胁到音乐制作和销售的成功生态系统的经济可行性？
I think it can be.
我认为可以。
I don’t think it is yet.
我认为还没有。
If you look at the history of recorded music, at the time that the Beatles were making albums, I think they were paid several pennies per album sold.
如果你看一下录制音乐的历史，在披头士乐队制作专辑的时候，我认为他们每售出一张专辑就得到几美分。
Then over time, the artists got more leverage and were able to negotiate better deals.
随着时间的推移，艺术家们获得了更多的影响力，能够协商出更好的交易。
I think it finally culminated in the old music business with Michael Jackson, who was getting maybe $2 per album that was sold, which was much more than everybody else.
我认为迈克尔·杰克逊的旧音乐生意最终达到了顶峰，他每张专辑的售价可能是 2 美元，这比其他人都高得多。
In the early days of singles, people were paid very little.
在单身初期，人们的报酬很少。
Every time there’s a new format of music, the rights holders seem to take advantage of that.
每当出现一种新的音乐形式时，版权所有者似乎都会利用这一点。
When CDs first came in, artists got paid less on a CD than they did for vinyl, and it’s been like that every time.
当 CD 刚出现时，艺术家在 CD 上获得的报酬比在黑胶唱片上获得的报酬要低，而且每次都是这样。
Every time there’s a new format, the artist gets paid less.
每当有新的形式出现时，艺术家的报酬就会减少。
Now, they only get paid less until their attorneys realize, “Oh, in our next deal, we’re going to negotiate to have better digital rights,” or better whatever it is.
现在，他们只能得到更少的报酬，直到他们的律师意识到，“哦，在我们的下一笔交易中，我们将通过谈判获得更好的数字权利”，或者更好的东西。
Then it eventually evens out because, ultimately, the artists have a great deal of leverage.
然后它最终会趋于平衡，因为最终艺术家们拥有很大的影响力。
Like now, for the handful of the biggest artists in the world, they probably make more money through streaming music than anyone has ever made in the physical world of music, but it’s very much of a top-down thing.
就像现在一样，对于世界上少数几位最大的艺术家来说，他们通过流媒体音乐赚到的钱可能比任何人在现实音乐世界中赚到的钱都多，但这在很大程度上是自上而下的事情。
It’s only the very top percent who have that.
只有最顶尖的人才拥有这样的能力。
Eventually, hopefully, it’ll get more equitable.
最终，希望它会变得更加公平。
It always has.
一直都是这样。
In every case, it has, so I’m optimistic that it will again.
在每种情况下，它都会发生，所以我乐观地认为它会再次发生。
Do you worry about the decline in music education in American schools?
您是否担心美国学校音乐教育的衰退？
Does that matter for popular music in the future?
这对未来的流行音乐重要吗？
Or do people just teach themselves?
还是人们只是自学？
There’s YouTube, there’s streaming, whatever.
有 YouTube、有流媒体等等。
I don’t think it matters.
我认为这并不重要。
I like the idea of learning what you want in school, and if you want to learn music, it would be nice to have that option.
我喜欢在学校学习你想要的东西的想法，如果你想学习音乐，那么有这个选择就好了。
But I think that people learn the things they love, whatever they are, not when in school.
但我认为人们学习他们喜欢的东西，无论它们是什么，而不是在学校。
Some commentators have argued that because of streaming, listeners consume too much old music and not enough new music.
一些评论员认为，由于流媒体，听众消费了太多的旧音乐，而没有足够的新音乐。
Indeed, if you look at Spotify data, how much people listen to older music seems to be rising steadily.
事实上，如果你看看 Spotify 的数据，就会发现有多少人听老音乐似乎在稳步上升。
Is that good?
这样好吗？
Is that bad?
那很糟糕吗？
It’s a sign of good taste?
这是品味高雅的标志吗？
It makes it harder to break in?
这会增加闯入的难度吗？
How do you think about that?
您对此有何看法？
I don’t think about it.
我不考虑这个。
I don’t think it matters.
我认为这并不重要。
If people are drawn to older music because they prefer it, that’s fine.
如果人们因为喜欢旧音乐而被吸引，那很好。
I think the idea of people listening to what they like is a good idea.
我认为人们听自己喜欢的东西的想法是个好主意。
On occasion, there’s a new piece of music that really captures someone’s attention.
有时，有一首新音乐确实能吸引某人的注意力。
I’ll say the most difficult thing about it now is that all of it has a disposability that it didn’t have before.
我想说，现在最困难的事情是，所有这些都具有以前没有的可处置性。
In the old days, you would buy a piece of music.
在过去，你会购买一首音乐。
You would own it, and you would be invested in that piece of music as yours.
你将拥有它，并且你将投资于那首属于你的音乐。
Now everything is available, which is fantastic and I love it.
现在一切都可用了，这太棒了，我喜欢它。
As a fan, I love it.
作为粉丝，我喜欢它。
When something comes out by an artist that you love, it doesn’t have the same gravitas that it once had because it’s on this conveyor belt of music that’s always going by.
当你喜欢的艺术家创作出某样东西时，它不再像以前那样庄重，因为它位于一直经过的音乐传送带上。
So, even the thing you love—you listen to it, but then there’s something new right behind it, coming right behind it, always something new coming right behind it.
所以，即使是你喜欢的东西——你听它，但它后面就会有一些新的东西，就在它后面，总是有一些新的东西就在它后面。
I don’t know how the music of today can get to the point of the canon of the music of the past based on that short term, the fact that the music goes by so quickly.
我不知道今天的音乐如何能够基于如此短暂的时间，即音乐过得如此之快，达到过去音乐的经典点。
Even the things we love—the shelf life is very short now.
即使是我们喜爱的东西——现在的保质期也很短。
Or very long, right?
或者很长，对吧？
It really changed with streaming.
流媒体确实改变了这一点。
It really did.
确实如此。
That was the biggest change.
这是最大的改变。
I was very pro-streaming early on.
我很早就非常支持流媒体。
I’m surprised.
我很惊讶。
I didn’t know that that was going to be one of the things that changed, but it’s interesting.
我不知道这会成为改变的事情之一，但这很有趣。
With all of these things, we never know what’s going to change.
对于所有这些事情，我们永远不知道会发生什么变化。
We take what’s good and think about the parts that aren’t as good.
我们接受好的部分，并考虑不好的部分。
But ultimately, knowing that if this afternoon, I want to listen to the Talking Heads, I don’t have to go to the store to try to find it, that I could listen to anything I want to listen to anytime, just on a whim—it’s a really beautiful way to live.
但最终，我知道如果今天下午我想听《Talking Heads》，我不必去商店寻找它，我可以随时听任何我想听的音乐，只是一时兴起——这是一种非常美好的生活方式。
Five years from now, do you think artificial intelligence will be creating good and interesting music?
五年后，您认为人工智能会创造出优秀而有趣的音乐吗？
I don’t think so, but I don’t know enough about it.
我不这么认为，但我对此了解还不够。
I feel like what makes art good is the point of view.
我觉得艺术之所以美好，在于观点。
It’s not the actual content itself, but it’s the humanity in it.
这不是内容本身，而是其中的人性。
It’s the soul in it that makes it good.
正是它的灵魂让它变得美好。
I don’t know that AI-generated art will have the soul.
我不知道人工智能生成的艺术会有灵魂。
The soul is that element that makes something.
灵魂是创造事物的元素。
Otherwise, it’s just decorative art, I would say, at this point.
否则，我想说，在这一点上，它只是装饰艺术。
Is current satellite radio realizing its potential?
当前的卫星广播是否发挥了其潜力？
How could it be better?
怎样才能更好呢？
Hmm, I quite like it.
嗯，我还挺喜欢的。
I like the fact that it’s in most cars.
我喜欢它在大多数汽车中的事实。
I feel like I get to hear music on satellite radio that I don’t hear in other places.
我觉得我可以通过卫星广播听到在其他地方听不到的音乐。
I listen to the Frank Sinatra channel quite a bit and I love that, and the Grateful Dead channel.
我经常听 Frank Sinatra 频道，我很喜欢这个频道，还有 Grateful Dead 频道。
I’m relatively new to the Grateful Dead.
我对感恩而死乐队还比较陌生。
I like those very much.
我非常喜欢那些。
I don’t know how it could be better.
我不知道如何才能更好。
Be interesting to think about, though I’ve never thought about it.
想想很有趣，虽然我从来没有想过。
I’m happy I have it.
我很高兴我拥有它。
I’d like for there to be more single-artist channels.
我希望有更多的单一艺术家频道。
I like it very much, but the idea of overdosing on an artist for two weeks and then moving on, to me, is quite appealing.
我非常喜欢它，但是对一个艺术家过量服用两周然后继续前进的想法对我来说非常有吸引力。
Yes, but if it was overdosing for two weeks, if everybody did that—
是的，但如果两周内服药过量，如果每个人都这样做——
RUBIN: —then having—I don’t know who it’d be—The Cure channel for two weeks would be great.
鲁宾：——然后——我不知道是谁——Cure 频道两周就太棒了。
Then, when everybody has had their two weeks, and The Cure channel is there forever, considering satellite seems to have a limited bandwidth—is that true?
然后，当每个人都度过了两周的时间，而 The Cure 频道却永远存在时，考虑到卫星的带宽似乎有限，这是真的吗？
I don’t know that either.
我也不知道。
I believe so, at least in economic terms, but they had a Led Zeppelin channel for two weeks.
我相信是这样，至少从经济角度来看，但他们有两周的齐柏林飞艇频道。
I would have gladly had that for a year or longer, but it seems they can just set up temporary channels if the rights holders agree.
我很乐意这样做一年或更长时间，但如果权利持有者同意，他们似乎可以建立临时渠道。
Yes.
是的。
I listen to the Beatles channel all the time.
我一直听披头士频道。
I love the Beatles channel.
我喜欢披头士频道。
As do I.
我也一样。
It was funny, when I was talking to Paul McCartney, one of the first things I said to him was like, “Oh, yes, you make all the music that’s on the Beatles channel, right?
有趣的是，当我和保罗·麦卡特尼交谈时，我对他说的第一句话就是，“哦，是的，披头士频道上的所有音乐都是你创作的，对吧？
That’s who you are.”
这就是你。”
“You’re the guy who makes the music for the Beatles channel.”
“你是为披头士频道创作音乐的人。”
When you were speaking with McCartney, what was the most McCartney-esque moment or anecdote that you have from that?
当您与麦卡特尼交谈时，您从中得到的最有麦卡特尼风格的时刻或轶事是什么？
Which part of that was supreme McCartney for you?
对你来说，麦卡特尼的哪一部分是至高无上的？
I think when he went to the piano and started playing.
我想当他走到钢琴前开始弹奏时。
There was one point where he was giving me a lesson about how to write a song, and the way he teaches children to write songs.
有一次，他给我上了一堂关于如何写歌的课，以及他教孩子们写歌的方式。
It was very rudimentary.
这是非常初级的。
He was playing along and showing me something very simple, and he was playing it over and over again.
他一边演奏一边向我展示一些非常简单的东西，而且他一遍又一遍地演奏。
Then all of a sudden, through this exercise of very simple, nothing changing, all of a sudden one of the incredible Beatles songs comes out.
然后突然之间，通过这个非常简单、没有任何改变的练习，突然一首令人难以置信的披头士歌曲就出来了。
I couldn’t believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
I couldn’t believe it was that simple.
我简直不敢相信事情就这么简单。
Watching it happen was mind-blowing.
目睹这一切的发生令人兴奋。
You’ve watched the Get Back sessions movie by Peter Jackson?
你看过彼得·杰克逊的《回归》电影吗？
As a music producer, what’s your takeaway from that?
作为一名音乐制作人，您从中得到什么收获？
As a Beatles fan, I just love seeing anything with the Beatles in it.
作为披头士乐队的粉丝，我喜欢看到任何有披头士乐队的东西。
I can’t get enough.
我还不够。
It must have, in some way, revised your view of the Beatles.
它一定在某种程度上改变了你对披头士乐队的看法。
What’s the Bayesian update, so to speak?
可以这么说，贝叶斯更新是什么？
Did you ever see the movie about Metallica?
你看过关于 Metallica 的电影吗？
Metallica made a movie.
金属乐队拍了一部电影。
I think it was called Some Kind of Monster.
我认为它被称为某种怪物。
No.
不。
What’s interesting about that movie is, they’re the biggest band in the world at the time that they make the movie.
这部电影的有趣之处在于，他们是制作这部电影时世界上最大的乐队。
They make this documentary film, and in the film, they’re completely lost.
他们制作了这部纪录片，而在影片中，他们完全迷失了。
Completely lost creatively.
完全失去了创造性。
I thought it was really bold for them to put it out because it was so revelatory.
我认为他们把它公布出来真的很大胆，因为它很有启发性。
I suppose, because I’ve been around a lot of musicians at all different stages of their work, the idea that until it’s really good, there are times when nobody knows what they’re doing—that’s normal.
我想，因为我接触过很多处于不同工作阶段的音乐家，所以在作品真正出色之前，有时没人知道他们在做什么——这很正常。
I guess the thing that I took away as most astounding was when a song would pop up in the movie, out of seeming boredom.
我想我最震惊的事情是电影中突然出现一首歌，因为看起来很无聊。
Just a song would pop up, and it would be songs that we’ve listened to our entire lives.
只弹出一首歌，这将是我们一生都在听的歌曲。
It was thrilling, and it was a reminder of, that’s what it’s always like.
这很令人兴奋，也提醒我们，事情总是如此。
Yes, on the one hand, it’s shocking, and on the other hand, that’s what it’s always like.
是的，一方面，这令人震惊，另一方面，事情总是如此。
I was struck by just how much Paul was the guy who got things done.
保罗是一个能把事情做好的人，这让我感到震惊。
I had always known that, but the extent of it, seeing it before your eyes, to me, was a shock.
我一直都知道这一点，但当我亲眼目睹它时，它的严重程度让我感到震惊。
Yes.
是的。
He was the craftsman in the Beatles.
他是披头士乐队的工匠。
He was the record maker in the Beatles.
他是披头士乐队的唱片制作人。
Everyone brought something really special to the Beatles.
每个人都为披头士乐队带来了一些非常特别的东西。
That said, Paul, in many ways, was the glue that allowed it to be what it could be.
也就是说，从很多方面来说，保罗都是让一切得以实现的粘合剂。
What is, for you, a very underrated solo Paul McCartney song?
对你来说，一首被严重低估的保罗·麦卡特尼独唱歌曲是什么？
Maybe Helen Wheels.
也许是海伦·惠尔斯。
Why do you like that?
你为什么喜欢这样？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I just remember hearing it on the radio when I was a kid, and it sounded different than other things.
我只记得小时候在收音机里听到过它，它听起来和其他东西不一样。
I think it’s the difference of it.
我认为这就是它的区别。
I don’t think he has any other songs quite like that.
我认为他没有其他类似的歌曲。
Putting aside all the people you’ve worked with, but who or what is it in music right now that you’re especially excited about?
抛开所有与你共事过的人不谈，但现在音乐界有谁或什么东西让你特别兴奋呢？
The sense of looking forward to something when a certain book comes out.
当某本书出版时，一种期待的感觉。
Your book’s not out yet, but I have a copy, but I was looking forward to that in some very definite way.
你的书还没有出版，但我有一本，但我以某种非常明确的方式期待着它。
What is it you’re looking forward to in the current stream?
您在当前直播中期待什么？
It’s funny, but I like pro wrestling.
这很有趣，但我喜欢职业摔跤。
WrestleMania’s coming up in April.
摔跤狂热大赛将于四月举行。
I’m looking forward to WrestleMania in Los Angeles.
我很期待洛杉矶的摔跤狂热大赛。
Why do you believe pro wrestling is the most accurate representation of life, as you once said?
正如您曾经说过的，为什么您认为职业摔跤是生活最准确的体现？
Yes.
是的。
You’re free to repudiate your own words, but—
你可以自由地否认自己的话，但是——
No, no, I’ll stand by that.
不，不，我会坚持这一点。
That sounds solid.
听起来很可靠。
Pro wrestling is art made up.
职业摔跤是艺术。
It’s made up and rooted in real life, and real life is made up and rooted in real life.
它是由现实生活构成并植根于现实生活的，而现实生活又是由现实生活构成并植根的。
Wrestling is a more honest depiction of the world than everything else that acts like it’s not made up.
摔跤是对世界的更诚实的描述，比其他一切看起来都不是虚构的东西更真实。
Who is the pro wrestler in particular that you look forward to?
你特别期待的职业摔跤手是谁？
This season it’s Roman Reigns, who’s the head of the table.
本赛季是罗曼·雷恩斯（Roman Reigns），他是积分榜的首位。
He’s a fantastic character these days.
如今他是一个了不起的人物。
What’s your favorite opera and why?
你最喜欢的歌剧是什么？为什么？
I don’t listen to very much opera.
我不太听歌剧。
I listen to the Maria Callas channel on Pandora sometimes, but I don’t know what pieces come from where.
我有时会听潘多拉上的玛丽亚卡拉斯频道，但我不知道哪些片段来自哪里。
I like Don Giovanni very much.
我非常喜欢唐璜。
Perhaps that’s my favorite.
也许那是我最喜欢的。
Maybe I’ll start with that one.
也许我会从那个开始。
Is there a particular version?
有具体版本吗？
Oh, I think Currentzis is the best, Teodor Currentzis.
哦，我认为 Currentzis 是最好的，Teodor Currentzis。
Then Colin Davis would be my second choice, but there are many fine recordings of it.
那么科林·戴维斯（Colin Davis）将是我的第二选择，但它有很多精美的录音。
Please send me links to both.
请给我发送两个链接。
I will send you that, absolutely.
我绝对会把那个发给你。
Both, because I like to compare.
两者都是，因为我喜欢比较。
Great.
伟大的。
You came of age in New York City.
你在纽约长大。
You went into hip hop early on, but you went to all these punk clubs from what I gather.
你很早就开始了嘻哈音乐，但据我所知，你去了所有这些朋克俱乐部。
How did that feed into your work on heavy metal and hip hop, this punk background?
这对你的重金属和嘻哈音乐以及朋克背景的作品有何影响？
I was a punk fan before I was a hip-hop fan.
在成为嘻哈迷之前，我是朋克迷。
The punk revolution was really exciting to me because it felt like it was being made by people who weren’t technically musicians.
朋克革命对我来说真的很令人兴奋，因为感觉它是由那些技术上不是音乐家的人创造的。
The music that it was replacing would be things like Electric Light Orchestra, who I love as well—these very studied virtuoso musicians.
它所取代的音乐将是像电灯乐团这样的音乐，我也喜欢他们——这些非常有研究的演奏家音乐家。
Punk rock came along, and it was anti.
朋克摇滚出现了，它是反的。
I liked that idea that this is for everybody.
我喜欢这个想法，即这适合所有人。
It was really a democratic kind of music.
这确实是一种民主的音乐。
It seemed to be young people who had energy, usually anger against things that they saw that didn’t seem right.
年轻人似乎很有活力，通常会对他们看到的不对劲的事情感到愤怒。
Now, in England, it was all about class struggle.
现在，在英国，一切都与阶级斗争有关。
In the US, my experience of life, class struggle didn’t really exist.
在美国，我的生活经历、阶级斗争并不真实存在。
When American bands started doing music inspired by English music, talking about class struggle, it didn’t really resonate with me.
当美国乐队开始创作受英国音乐启发的音乐、谈论阶级斗争时，我并没有真正产生共鸣。
Whereas the Ramones were my band.
而雷蒙斯乐队是我的乐队。
The Ramones had the energy of punk rock, but lyrically, they weren’t an overtly political band, which made sense for the world that we grew up in.
雷蒙斯乐队拥有朋克摇滚的能量，但在抒情上，他们并不是一支明显的政治乐队，这对于我们成长的世界来说是有意义的。
Where I grew up was not so far from where the Ramones grew up, and it made sense for our world.
我长大的地方离雷蒙斯长大的地方并不远，这对我们的世界来说是有意义的。
The first American punk band .
第一个美国朋克乐队。
.
。
.
。
The second-wave punk band that really made sense to me was Minor Threat, and that was Ian MacKaye’s band.
对我来说真正有意义的第二波朋克乐队是 Minor Threat，那是 Ian MacKaye 的乐队。
He later had a group called Fugazi, which is fantastic as well.
后来他组建了一个名为 Fugazi 的乐队，这也很棒。
Minor Threat talked about social issues that were applicable to our life, so it felt more true to me, and I loved their music.
Minor Threat谈论的是适用于我们生活的社会问题，所以对我来说感觉更真实，而且我喜欢他们的音乐。
I loved the energy of punk rock music.
我喜欢朋克摇滚音乐的能量。
I felt like a lot of what I liked in heavy metal, growing up before punk rock, was even more charged in punk rock, and I tried to bring that aesthetic.
我觉得我在重金属中喜欢的很多东西，在朋克摇滚之前长大，在朋克摇滚中更加充满活力，我试图带来这种美感。
When I say I tried to bring that aesthetic, it’s not really right.
当我说我试图带来这种美感时，其实并不正确。
That’s looking back.
这就是回头看。
At the time, the music I liked was punk.
那时，我喜欢的音乐是朋克。
I experienced the energy of punk.
我体验到了朋克的能量。
Then, when I was making heavy metal records, let’s say, because I had the love of punk rock, I understood this extra gear that the music could go to that it hadn’t gone to in the heavy metal days but did go to in the punk rock days.
然后，当我制作重金属唱片时，比如说，因为我热爱朋克摇滚，我理解了音乐可以达到的额外装备，它在重金属时代没有达到，但在朋克摇滚时代确实达到了。
For example, Slayer trying to bring the power of punk rock, but with the precision of heavy metal because Slayer was a heavy metal band.
例如，Slayer 试图带来朋克摇滚的力量，但又带有重金属的精确性，因为 Slayer 是一支重金属乐队。
They were a punk rock heavy metal band, but they were definitely a heavy metal band.
他们是一支朋克摇滚重金属乐队，但他们绝对是一支重金属乐队。
Did you draw much, if anything, from disco in those days?
那些日子里，你从迪斯科汲取了很多（如果有的话）吗？
Or that was anathema?
或者那是诅咒？
No, I always loved disco.
不，我一直很喜欢迪斯科。
I may not have loved all disco, but I like dance music.
我可能不喜欢所有迪斯科，但我喜欢舞曲。
I love all kinds of dance music, and the best of disco is the best dance music.
我喜欢各种舞曲，迪斯科最好的就是最好的舞曲。
You grew up in Long Island, is that correct?
你在长岛长大，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
Do you feel that growing up in Long Island rather than, say, Manhattan has helped you understand the music of the rest of America better?
您是否觉得在长岛而不是曼哈顿长大可以帮助您更好地了解美国其他地区的音乐？
If so, how?
如果是这样，怎么办？
I would say growing up where I grew up was a miracle.
我想说，在我长大的地方长大是一个奇迹。
It plays such an important role in my understanding of or relationship to culture.
它在我对文化的理解或与文化的关系中发挥着如此重要的作用。
Not growing up in Manhattan was more of an experience like the rest of the United States, but I was close enough to Manhattan to be able to get there.
不像美国其他地方那样在曼哈顿长大，但我离曼哈顿足够近，能够到达那里。
I could go to a museum, I could go to a Broadway show, I could go to the theater.
我可以去博物馆，我可以去百老汇演出，我可以去剧院。
I could do things that, if I was growing up in a truly rural place, I couldn’t do.
我可以做一些如果我在真正的农村长大的话我做不到的事情。
In some ways, I had the best of both worlds.
在某些方面，我两全其美。
I was close enough to get to the city and understand what was going on in fine art and live in the suburbs and experience what Americans like.
我离城市很近，可以了解美术界的情况，也可以住在郊区，体验美国人的喜好。
It was, again, pure luck.
这又是纯粹的运气。
Luckily, my tastes share those two.
幸运的是，我的口味与这两者相同。
I got to experience both of those lives growing up, and either one of them without the other would be out of balance for me.
我在成长过程中经历了这两种生活，其中任何一种如果没有另一种对我来说都会失去平衡。
Having grown up in New Jersey, I feel very much the same way.
我在新泽西长大，也有同样的感觉。
Now, you once said—I’m not sure if this was ironic or serious—but that for you, the ideal act of musical production would be never to even meet the artist.
现在，你曾经说过——我不确定这是讽刺还是严肃的——但对你来说，音乐制作的理想行为就是永远不会见到艺术家。
Did you mean that literally?
你是字面意思吗？
Or how should I interpret that?
或者我应该如何解释？
Yes, that’s true.
是的，确实如此。
You interpret it how you like.
你可以按照你喜欢的方式解释它。
I meant it literally.
我的意思是字面意思。
Why is it better not to meet the artist?
为什么最好不要见到艺术家？
Some art collectors—they say, “I never want to meet the painter.
一些艺术收藏家——他们说，“我从来不想见到画家。
I just want to look at the painting more objectively.” Is it like that?
我只是想更客观地看待这幅画。”是这样吗？
The idea is having the biggest impact on the work with the least amount of fingerprints.
这个想法是用最少的指纹对工作产生最大的影响。
I want the work to be wholly the artist’s work.
我希望这件作品完全是艺术家的作品。
The less I can do, the better, provided it’s the best work the artists have ever done in their lives.
我能做的越少越好，只要这是艺术家一生中做过的最好的作品。
My role is to support the artists in doing the best work of their lives.
我的职责是支持艺术家做出他们一生中最好的作品。
Again, if it’s needed, my fingerprints are all over it, but my preference is to have as little involvement as possible.
再说一次，如果需要的话，我的指纹遍布其中，但我的偏好是尽可能少地参与。
The ultimate version of that would be to know that an artist wants to work with me, for that somehow to be arranged, for me to never meet the artist or speak to them, and have them make the greatest work of their lives, knowing that we have this connection.
最终的版本是知道一位艺术家想要与我合作，以某种方式进行安排，让我永远不会见到这位艺术家或与他们交谈，并让他们创作出他们一生中最伟大的作品，因为知道我们有这种联系。
Is this related to why you don’t use more editing software?
这是否与您不使用更多编辑软件有关？
When do you mean, using editing software?
您指的是什么时候使用编辑软件？
Explain.
解释。
Well, you’re the one who’s there.
好吧，你就是在那里的那个人。
I’m just guessing from what I hear, but I have the sense that the decisions come from you interacting with the artists rather than you doing everything at a board, giving commands to software.
我只是根据我听到的猜测，但我有一种感觉，决策来自于你与艺术家的互动，而不是你在董事会上做所有事情，向软件发出命令。
But again, your account is the definitive one.
但同样，您的帐户是最终的帐户。
I share my opinion, and more often than not, in some cases .
在某些情况下，我经常分享我的观点。
.
。
.
。
let’s say I listen to a body of an artist’s work, and they ask my opinion, and I’ll make 100 notes.
假设我听了一位艺术家的作品，他们询问我的意见，我会做 100 个笔记。
And I’ll know inside of myself that of these 100 notes, maybe 5 of them will make or break the work.
我内心深处知道，在这 100 个笔记中，也许其中 5 个会决定作品的成败。
I’ll share all 100 notes, and if the artist chooses not to incorporate the 5 that I know are going to make a difference, then I might have a second conversation.
我将分享所有 100 个注释，如果艺术家选择不合并我知道会产生影响的 5 个注释，那么我可能会进行第二次对话。
But still, it would be ultimately the artists, always the artists.
但最终还是艺术家，永远是艺术家。
I don’t want to convince anyone of anything.
我不想让任何人相信任何事情。
I would like to state what I see, and then it’s up to the artist to take that information and use it as they wish.
我想陈述我所看到的，然后由艺术家来获取这些信息并按照他们的意愿使用它。
You must be an above-average persuader, right?
你一定是一个高于平均水平的说服者，对吧？
I feel like I have that ability, but I don’t like to use that ability.
我觉得我有这个能力，但我不喜欢使用这个能力。
I feel like it’s a—
我觉得这是一个——
Maybe that’s why you’re above average.
也许这就是你高于平均水平的原因。
Maybe.
或许。
I feel like getting someone to do what you want—that’s not the reason for somebody to do something.
我想让某人做你想做的事——这不是某人做某事的理由。
I don’t like that idea.
我不喜欢这个主意。
Say you’re George Martin.
假设你是乔治·马丁。
You’re at Abbey Road Studio, and George Harrison thinks Paul McCartney wants to put too complex a bass line into something, or into While My Guitar Gently Weeps, which in my opinion made those songs much, much better.
你在 Abbey Road Studio，乔治·哈里森 (George Harrison) 认为保罗·麦卡特尼 (Paul McCartney) 想要将过于复杂的低音线放入某些东西中，或者放入《While My Guitar Gently Weeps》中，在我看来，这使这些歌曲变得非常非常好。
You’ve got to persuade someone of something, right?
你必须说服某人某件事，对吗？
I don’t know about that.
我对此一无所知。
And I’m not sure that that’s how it went down.
我不确定事情就是这样发生的。
Do you know what I’m saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Yes.
是的。
I don’t know that.
我不知道。
I think more often than not, the people involved in the making of art who are not the creator do more harm than good, so I’m very much of the mind not to do harm.
我认为，参与艺术创作的人（不是创作者）往往弊大于利，所以我坚决不做坏事。
I don’t think that I know everything.
我不认为我知道一切。
I don’t think that my opinion necessarily has more validity than someone else’s, so I like to really have the conversation and get to the bottom of it through talking.
我不认为我的观点一定比别人的观点更有效，所以我喜欢真正地进行对话，并通过谈话来了解真相。
Ultimately, I’ve had it happen where artists will just flat-out reject what I’m saying.
最终，我遇到过这样的情况：艺术家会断然拒绝我所说的。
It’s like, “That’s fine.” And I’ve had the opposite.
就像是，“没关系。”而我却有相反的情况。
I’ve had artists say, “Tell me more.
有艺术家对我说：“告诉我更多。
I want to do more of what you want.” I’m open to doing it.
我想做更多你想做的事。”我愿意这样做。
I’m open to participating as much as they want, but I don’t want to convince someone to do something, even if I think it’s better.
我愿意按照他们的意愿参与，但我不想说服某人做某事，即使我认为这更好。
I don’t feel good about that.
我对此感觉不太好。
You’ve also claimed you don’t really play any musical instruments.
您还声称您实际上不会演奏任何乐器。
Now, that’s a matter of degree, but you feel that helps you as a producer?
现在，这是一个程度问题，但你觉得这对你作为制片人有帮助吗？
That it helps me that I don’t?
它对我有帮助，但我却没有帮助？
That you don’t very much, you must admit, right?
你必须承认，你不太了解，对吧？
Yes, but I honestly don’t think it helps or hurts.
是的，但老实说，我认为这没有帮助或伤害。
It just is what it is.
它就是这样。
My involvement is purely about taste.
我的参与纯粹是为了品味。
It’s not about technical skill.
这与技术技能无关。
It’s not about technique unless there’s something that I noticed in the past that I shared, like, “Oh, I remember so-and-so did it like this.
这与技术无关，除非我过去注意到了一些我分享过的东西，比如，“哦，我记得某某是这样做的。
Do you want to try that?” That would be the extent of something either technical or musical.
你想尝试一下吗？这就是技术或音乐的范围。
But other than that, it’s more, “This is the part that’s interesting to me.
但除此之外，更重要的是，“这是我感兴趣的部分。
This is the part that’s less interesting to me.
这是我不太感兴趣的部分。
Is there any way to make this part that’s less interesting as interesting as this part?” That’s most of my job.
有什么办法可以让这个不那么有趣的部分变得和这个部分一样有趣吗？”这是我的大部分工作。
How much of your value-added do you think is choosing the right talent?
您认为选择合适的人才对您的增值有多少？
One of my friends, who’s a fan of yours, described you as one of the greatest venture capitalists of all time.
我的一位朋友也是你的粉丝，他形容你是有史以来最伟大的风险投资家之一。
You could see or feel that certain artists had it in them to do great work—with you or with others.
你可以看到或感觉到某些艺术家有能力与你或其他人一起创作伟大的作品。
And a lot of them were not well known until you worked with them, so some of it is you made the music better, but some of it is you chose properly.
他们中的很多人在你和他们合作之前并不为人所知，所以有些是你把音乐做得更好，但有些是你选择得当。
What is it you look for when you’re choosing people to work with?
当你选择共事的人时，你会寻找什么？
I would say it’s like falling in love.
我想说这就像坠入爱河。
I can’t say why.
我说不出来为什么。
It’s, why do you love something?
就是，你为什么喜欢某样东西？
Why do you love the things you love?
为什么你会爱你所爱的事物？
It’s not intellectual.
这不是知识分子。
It’s a feeling and you feel it, and you want to hear more.
这是一种感觉，你能感受到它，并且你想听到更多。
You know you want to hear more.
你知道你想听到更多。
You lean forward.
你向前倾身。
You want to hear more.
你想听更多。
There are certain artists—when they make music, I want to hear all their music.
有一些艺术家——当他们创作音乐时，我想听他们所有的音乐。
I am less focused on, “This sounds like a hit song.” I don’t care so much about that.
我不太关注“这听起来像是一首热门歌曲”。我不太关心这个。
I’m more interested in how I perceive the artist and whether I’m interested in their body of work or not.
我更感兴趣的是我如何看待艺术家以及我是否对他们的作品感兴趣。
When you were a kid, you said you did a lot of magic tricks.
当你还是个孩子的时候，你说过你会表演很多魔术。
How did that influence your later approach to music production?
这对你后来的音乐制作方式有何影响？
Certain things like understanding misdirection, or the surprise that comes up in the juxtaposition of things that creates an illusion, those things work in music.
某些事情，比如理解误导，或者在创造幻觉的事物并置中出现的惊喜，这些东西在音乐中起作用。
I can’t think of a song in particular, but there’s a song that starts .
我想不出具体是哪首歌，但有一首歌曲开头。
.
。
.
。
the first song on an album that starts with a very small sound, and it’s rockin’, but it’s a very small sound, and it goes on for a while.
专辑中的第一首歌，以非常小的声音开始，而且很摇滚，但声音非常小，而且持续了一段时间。
Then it breaks into a very big sound.
然后它发出很大的声音。
Because there’s no context before the small sound, and the small sound goes on long enough, you might think that’s the whole thing.
因为在小声音之前没有任何上下文，并且小声音持续的时间足够长，所以您可能会认为这就是整个事情。
That’s what it is.
就是这样。
That would be something that would be rooted in a magician’s principle of creating a certain expectation, and then the surprise of changing it is enthralling for the audience.
这将植根于魔术师创造某种期望的原则，然后改变它的惊喜会让观众着迷。
Why is it that there are so few really good live albums?
为什么真正好的现场专辑这么少？
Or perhaps you disagree.
或者也许你不同意。
Or is there something that’s just very difficult in their production?
或者他们的制作过程中有什么困难吗？
The Who, Live at Leeds, James Brown at the Apollo, Nirvana MTV special, Allman Brothers, Fillmore East, and Johnny Cash, At Folsom Prison.
The Who、Live at Leeds、James Brown 在 Apollo、Nirvana MTV Special、Allman Brothers、Fillmore East 和 Johnny Cash 在 Folsom 监狱。
There are some.
有一些。
I even like Wings over America, but there aren’t that many I really want to go back and listen to it.
我什至喜欢《飞越美国》，但真正想回去听的并不多。
I’m thinking about why that is.
我在想为什么会这样。
Kiss Alive was another seminal .
Kiss Alive 是另一个开创性的作品。
.
。
.
。
Kiss Alive II was actually .
Kiss Alive II 实际上是。
.
。
.
。
they broke based on live records.
他们根据现场记录打破了。
And Frampton Comes Alive was another.
《Frampton Comes Alive》是另一个。
That’s good, yes.
那很好，是的。
There’s another one.
还有另外一个。
My favorite—I mentioned earlier, I’m new to the Grateful Dead.
我最喜欢的——我之前提到过，我是感恩而死乐队的新手。
Their album called The Reckoning is my favorite of their albums.
他们的专辑《The Reckoning》是我最喜欢的专辑。
That’s a live album.
那是一张现场专辑。
It’s a live acoustic album.
这是一张现场原声专辑。
Most jazz records are ultimately live albums.
大多数爵士乐唱片最终都是现场专辑。
Even if they’re live in the studio, they’re live albums.
即使它们是在录音室现场演奏的，它们也是现场专辑。
Maybe the difference between a great live album—if we consider jazz albums, the reason an album might be better live in the studio, instead of live in front of an audience, isn’t so much because the audience is there, but just because of the ability to record it better.
也许一张伟大的现场专辑之间的区别——如果我们考虑爵士乐专辑，一张专辑在录音室里现场表演而不是在观众面前现场表演可能更好的原因并不是因为观众在那里，而是因为能够更好地录制它。
That would be my guess, because so many rock records we like, studio albums are essentially live records in the studio, the greatest ones of all time.
这是我的猜测，因为我们喜欢很多摇滚唱片，录音室专辑本质上是录音室里的现场唱片，是有史以来最伟大的唱片。
I once saw Plant and Page live, and they were very tight, but I came away with the impression that Led Zeppelin was more of a studio band than I had thought, that there was a sense of texture in the actual albums that was missing in the concert.
我曾经看过普兰特和佩奇的现场表演，他们的关系非常紧密，但我留下的印象是，齐柏林飞艇比我想象的更像是一支录音室乐队，实际专辑中有一种音乐会中所缺少的质感。
I felt a little flat going out.
出门感觉有点乏味。
“Oh, I’m supposed to love these guys.” I do love them, but it wasn’t the same for me.
“哦，我应该爱这些家伙。”我确实爱他们，但对我来说不一样。
Then I saw a current version of Queen, and you think, “Oh, they’re the ultimate studio band.” And they were amazing live.
然后我看到了皇后乐队的最新版本，你会想，“哦，他们是终极录音室乐队。”他们的现场表演非常棒。
I was still puzzled over that.
对此我仍然感到困惑。
Yes, the production is a big part of it.
是的，生产是其中很大一部分。
In the case of Led Zeppelin, Jimmy Page’s production is astounding.
就齐柏林飞船而言，吉米·佩奇的制作令人震惊。
It definitely takes it beyond what the live recording can do.
这绝对超出了现场录音的范围。
In the case of Led Zeppelin, it starts as a live recording in the studio, and then he adds layers and layers of embellishment that make it a symphonic recording rooted in a live rock band recording.
以齐柏林飞船为例，它首先是在录音室进行现场录音，然后他添加了一层又一层的修饰，使其成为植根于现场摇滚乐队录音的交响乐录音。
If you see the Ramones’ first album, it’s recorded all .
如果你看到雷蒙斯乐队的第一张专辑，你会发现它已经全部录制完毕。
.
。
.
。
or the Beatles’ first album was recorded just quickly.
或者披头士乐队的第一张专辑很快就录制完成了。
Black Sabbath’s first album was recorded in a few hours.
黑色安息日的第一张专辑在几个小时内就录制完成了。
Those are essentially live records, and I think the reason that they might sound better .
这些本质上是现场录音，我认为它们可能听起来更好。
.
。
.
。
or I guess the MC5’s first album is a live album too.
或者我猜MC5的第一张专辑也是一张现场专辑。
Should I think of Black Sabbath as just being jazz?
我是否应该将黑色安息日视为爵士乐？
You can.
你可以。
It’s very jazzy.
非常爵士乐。
It’s very, very jazz-influenced, and that’s why they’re great.
它非常非常受爵士乐的影响，这就是他们伟大的原因。
As I’m sure you know, Jeff Beck sadly just passed away.
我相信你知道，杰夫·贝克刚刚不幸去世。
How is it you think about the nature of his genius?
您如何看待他的天才本质？
I think he’s one of the greatest guitar players of all time, maybe the greatest.
我认为他是有史以来最伟大的吉他手之一，也许是最伟大的。
What I love about him is that he plays the guitar as if it’s a different instrument than the instrument that everyone else who plays guitar plays.
我喜欢他的一点是，他弹吉他的方式与其他弹吉他的人弹奏的乐器不同。
He plays it in a completely original way.
他以完全原创的方式演奏它。
He found a new language of guitar playing that’s only his, and that only he can do, or that I know of that only he could do.
他发现了一种新的吉他演奏语言，这是他独有的，只有他能做到，或者我知道只有他能做到。
It’s astounding and breathtaking to watch.
观看起来令人震惊和叹为观止。
I absolutely love his playing.
我非常喜欢他的演奏。
Now, I might not like all of his music, but I love his playing.
现在，我可能不喜欢他的所有音乐，但我喜欢他的演奏。
How should I think about the production of the Jimi Hendrix trio?
我应该如何看待吉米·亨德里克斯三重奏的制作？
You have just three guys, not very high-tech, and ultimately, it sounds like planets are colliding.
你们只有三个人，技术不是很高，最终，听起来就像行星正在相撞。
What is it they did that made that work?
他们做了什么让这项工作成功？
He used so many new original techniques for the time with effects, with panning.
他在效果、平移方面使用了许多当时新颖的原创技术。
He really used the studio.
他确实使用了工作室。
He was one of the first to make the studio part of the group.
他是最早将工作室纳入该集团的人之一。
I have an interesting story to tell you that came from an interview I did with Johnny Echols, who’s the guitar player in the band Love.
我有一个有趣的故事要告诉你，这个故事来自我对 Johnny Echols 的采访，他是 Love 乐队的吉他手。
Are you familiar with the band?
你熟悉这个乐队吗？
Of course.
当然。
Forever Changes, among others.
永远的变化等等。
I love that album.
我喜欢那张专辑。
That’s why I was interviewing him.
这就是我采访他的原因。
I talked to a few different people.
我和几个不同的人交谈过。
Everyone who was involved in Forever Changes who’s still alive, I spoke to.
我采访了所有还活着的参与“永远改变”的人。
He told me the story about a guitar player named Jimmy James who wasn’t really a guitar player; he was more of a roadie.
他给我讲了一个关于一位名叫吉米·詹姆斯（Jimmy James）的吉他手的故事，他并不是真正的吉他手；他是一名吉他手。他更像是一个路人。
He was a roadie and driver for Little Richard.
他是小理查德的巡演人员和司机。
Little Richard needed a guitar player live, so Jimmy James would fill in on guitar, but he wasn’t really a guitar player.
小理查德现场需要一名吉他手，所以吉米·詹姆斯会担任吉他手，但他并不是真正的吉他手。
He was more of a roadie and a driver.
他更像是一名巡演者和司机。
The guys from Love hung out with the guys from Little Richard’s band, and they were all friends.
Love 乐队的成员们和 Little Richard 乐队的成员们一起出去玩，他们都是朋友。
One day they get a call—oh, I left out a piece.
有一天他们接到电话——哦，我漏掉了一块。
Okay, there’s an invention called Vox Wah-Wah pedal, which was given to all of the guitar players in all of the popular bands as a promotional tool.
好吧，有一个名为 Vox Wah-Wah 踏板的发明，它作为促销工具提供给所有流行乐队的所有吉他手。
Jimmy Echols got this Vox Wah-Wah pedal, and Jimmy James got one even though he wasn’t really a guitar player, but he played for Little Richard, so it was high profile.
Jimmy Echols 得到了这个 Vox Wah-Wah 踏板，Jimmy James 也得到了一个，尽管他并不是真正的吉他手，但他为 Little Richard 演奏过，所以它是高调的。
All the guitar players got them, and the pitch from Vox was, “This pedal will make your guitar sound like the trombone.” And Jimmy Echols got this thing, and he said, “Well, if I want to have a trombone on my record, I’ll learn to play trombone,” and he threw the Vox Wah-Wah pedal in the garbage.
所有的吉他手都得到了它们，Vox 的音调是：“这个踏板会让你的吉他听起来像长号。” Jimmy Echols 得到了这个东西，他说，“好吧，如果我想在我的唱片上放长号，我就学吹长号。”然后他把 Vox Wah-Wah 踏板扔进了垃圾桶。
Then a year later, 18 months later, they’re in Los Angeles, and they get a call that there’s this incredible guitar player from England named Jimi Hendrix.
一年后，也就是 18 个月后，他们在洛杉矶接到电话，说有一位来自英国的令人难以置信的吉他手，名叫吉米·亨德里克斯 (Jimi Hendrix)。
“You have to see him.
“你必须见他。
He’s playing in San Francisco.”
他正在旧金山打球。”
They drive up to San Francisco, all excited to see the greatest guitar player we’ve ever seen.
他们开车前往旧金山，很高兴能见到我们见过的最伟大的吉他手。
Jimi Hendrix comes out on stage and starts playing, and it’s Jimmy James.
吉米·亨德里克斯走上舞台并开始演奏，是吉米·詹姆斯。
It’s Jimmy James, who was the not-so-great guitar player who 18 months ago was the roadie for Little Richard.
吉米·詹姆斯 (Jimmy James) 是一位不太出色的吉他手，18 个月前，他还是小理查德 (Little Richard) 的巡演人员。
He was playing through the Vox Wah-Wah pedal.
他用 Vox Wah-Wah 踏板演奏。
The Wah-Wah pedal made Jimmy James into Jimi Hendrix.
哇哇踏板让吉米·詹姆斯 (Jimmy James) 变成了吉米·亨德里克斯 (Jimi Hendrix)。
The point of the story that Jimmy Echols was telling was, the reason that Jimi Hendrix was Jimi Hendrix was because of the way he embraced technology.
吉米·埃科尔斯讲述的故事的要点是，吉米·亨德里克斯之所以成为吉米·亨德里克斯，是因为他拥抱科技的方式。
That’s what made him the guitar-playing god that he is, was because he was the first guitar player to embrace the technology.
这就是他成为吉他演奏之神的原因，因为他是第一个拥抱这项技术的吉他手。
What made Brian Wilson an important producer?
是什么让布莱恩·威尔逊成为重要的制片人？
He heard things that other people couldn’t hear and would make the effort to get them onto tape so that we could all hear them.
他听到了其他人听不到的事情，并努力将它们录成磁带，以便我们都能听到。
And they were often unusual things, very beautiful things, very beautiful harmonies and arrangements that might not make sense to anyone else at the time.
它们往往是不寻常的东西，非常美丽的东西，非常美丽的和声和安排，可能对当时的其他人来说没有意义。
He had amazing silences, I think, in some of the Hawaiian songs: “The Little Girl I Once Knew,” many others, “Vegetables.”
我认为，在一些夏威夷歌曲中，他有令人惊奇的沉默：“我曾经认识的小女孩”，还有许多其他歌曲，“蔬菜”。
How do you think about the main contribution of Brian Eno to musical production?
您如何看待布莱恩·伊诺对音乐制作的主要贡献？
Obviously, incredible in many ways, but as a producer?
显然，在很多方面都令人难以置信，但作为制片人呢？
He seems to be the one who really broke down the walls of anything sounding like a band.
他似乎是真正打破了任何听起来像乐队的壁垒的人。
I think up until the time of Eno, the idea of the band being the centerpiece of the recording was the thing that you built on or veered from, but it was the central idea, was the sound of the band.
我认为直到 Eno 时代，乐队作为录音核心的想法是你建立或偏离的东西，但它的中心思想是乐队的声音。
I think his idea was music is music, and it’s not about the band.
我认为他的想法是音乐就是音乐，与乐队无关。
It’s about the sounds.
这是关于声音的。
Whatever sounds put together in an interesting way is what it is.
任何声音以有趣的方式组合在一起就是它的本质。
If Jimi Hendrix embraced the recording studio to take it as far as it could go for a rock band, Eno took the rock band out of the studio and just left with the studio.
如果说吉米·亨德里克斯拥抱录音室是为了让摇滚乐队能走得尽可能远，那么伊诺则把摇滚乐队带出了录音室，然后就带着录音室离开了。
The Van Morrison album Astral Weeks—why does that sound so special?
范·莫里森 (Van Morrison) 的专辑《Astral Weeks》——为什么听起来如此特别？
Obviously, great songs, but there’s something about the feel of the album on the LP.
显然，歌曲很棒，但 LP 上的专辑有一些感觉。
What is it?
它是什么？
I think it’s a combination of the songs, obviously, Van’s voice is unbelievable, and the sensitivity of the jazz musicians playing.
我认为这是歌曲的结合，显然，范的声音令人难以置信，以及爵士音乐家演奏的敏感性。
Hearing great jazz musicians playing technically non-jazz music is a really thrilling thing.
听到伟大的爵士音乐家演奏技术上非爵士乐是一件非常令人兴奋的事情。
I tend to like when jazz players play pop music.
我倾向于喜欢爵士乐演奏者演奏流行音乐。
I think we hear that—
我想我们听到了——
Keith Jarrett playing Shostakovich.
基思·贾勒特饰演肖斯塔科维奇。
Beautiful.
美丽的。
That’s fantastic.
太棒了。
Beautiful.
美丽的。
Very different sound.
非常不同的声音。
I think, in general, having someone who’s good at one thing playing something else is a good idea.
我认为，总的来说，让擅长一件事的人玩另一件事是个好主意。
I just learned this story recently.
我最近才知道这个故事。
I produced Neil Young’s last album, called World Record.
我制作了尼尔·杨的最后一张专辑《世界纪录》。
The band on the album was the same band who he recorded After the Gold Rush with 50 years ago.
专辑中的乐队正是他50年前录制《After the Gold Rush》时所合作的乐队。
Nils Lofgren was the guitar player.
尼尔斯·洛夫格伦是吉他手。
It’s funny because I think of Nils as a guy in Bruce’s band, but before he played with Bruce, he played with Neil.
这很有趣，因为我认为尼尔斯是布鲁斯乐队中的一个人，但在他和布鲁斯一起演奏之前，他和尼尔一起演奏过。
While he is an unbelievable guitar player—was then and remains today—Neil wanted him on After the Gold Rush to play piano, specifically because he doesn’t really play piano.
虽然他是一位令人难以置信的吉他手——无论过去还是现在——尼尔希望他在《淘金热之后》中弹钢琴，特别是因为他实际上并不弹钢琴。
Neil wanted someone to play piano who really understood music and felt music, but didn’t really play the instrument that they were playing.
尼尔想要弹钢琴的人真正理解音乐并感受音乐，但并没有真正演奏他们正在演奏的乐器。
Some of the most memorable pieces of that After the Gold Rush album are rooted in Nils not knowing how to play piano and Neil’s understanding that that’s what it was.
《After the Gold Rush》专辑中一些最令人难忘的作品源于尼尔斯不知道如何弹钢琴，而尼尔斯却明白钢琴就是这样。
An interesting thing in dance music is that the most interesting dance music that I’ve heard seems to be made by people who didn’t only listen to dance music, like people who came from punk rock and then started making dance music.
舞曲音乐中一个有趣的事情是，我听过的最有趣的舞曲似乎是由那些不仅仅听舞曲的人制作的，比如来自朋克摇滚然后开始制作舞曲音乐的人。
LCD Soundsystem is a good example.
LCD 音响系统就是一个很好的例子。
James Murphy was a punk rocker.
詹姆斯·墨菲是一位朋克摇滚歌手。
He was the soundman at CBGB.
他是 CBGB 的音响师。
When he brought his sensibility to the world of dance music, not being of dance music, it creates this new energy and light in it that people who have only made dance music—it always seems more ordinary to me when the people who are good at it just make it.
当他把他的感性带入舞曲音乐的世界，而不是舞曲音乐的世界时，它创造了这种新的能量和光芒，那些只制作舞曲音乐的人在其中创造了新的能量和光芒——对我来说，当擅长舞曲的人只是制作它时，它总是显得更普通。
When someone who doesn’t make it makes it, we learn something new, and when we learn something new, it’s always the most exciting, always the most exciting.
当没有成功的人成功时，我们会学到新东西，而当我们学到新东西时，它总是最令人兴奋的，总是最令人兴奋的。
Do you have a favorite Neil Young story that you can share?
您有最喜欢的尼尔·杨的故事可以分享吗？
Well, I’ll tell you a story about this new album that we just made.
好吧，我会告诉你一个关于我们刚刚制作的这张新专辑的故事。
It was an experience unlike any I’ve had before.
这是一次不同于我以前经历过的经历。
We recorded for the first week.
我们录制了第一周。
Neil comes in with songs written.
尼尔带着写好的歌进来了。
Normally the way it works is, he comes in with songs written that he can play, and he plays the song for the band one time, and then the band plays along with him, and it happens very quickly.
通常的工作方式是，他带着写好的他可以演奏的歌曲进来，他为乐队演奏一次这首歌，然后乐队和他一起演奏，这一切发生得很快。
That’s the way it happens with Crazy Horse, I think with everybody, but with Crazy Horse in particular.
我想每个人都会遇到这样的情况，尤其是疯马。
With this album, Neil wrote the songs in a different way, so he didn’t know them.
在这张专辑中，尼尔以不同的方式写歌，所以他不认识它们。
In the past, he would write songs on guitar and he would play around on the guitar, find chords, write a melody, write words, have the song, know the song, and then come to the studio being able to deliver a solo performance.
以前他会用吉他写歌，他会弹吉他，找和弦，写旋律，写歌词，有歌，了解歌，然后来到录音室就能进行独奏表演。
In this case, he was hiking and whistling, and he noticed that the whistling was interesting, so he started recording the whistling, and then after recording the whistling, he realized, “I think there’s enough whistles here of melodies that are interesting, that this could be an album of songs.” He’d never done that before, just channeling these melodies.
在这个例子中，他一边徒步一边吹口哨，他注意到口哨很有趣，所以他开始录制口哨，然后在录制口哨后，他意识到，“我认为这里有足够多的口哨，旋律很有趣，这可能是一张歌曲专辑。”他以前从未这样做过，只是引导这些旋律。
The writing is unlike any Neil Young music you’ve heard before because he’s never written this way before, and it’s just a different process and came out different, and beautiful.
他的作品与你之前听过的任何尼尔·杨的音乐都不同，因为他以前从未这样写过，这只是一个不同的过程，结果也不同，而且很美丽。
It almost seems like it’s from another time.
看起来几乎像是来自另一个时代。
It seems like it’s from a time before Neil Young.
这似乎是尼尔·杨之前的时代。
He has these whistles.
他有这些口哨。
He sat down to write words to the whistling, which he did for all the songs in a two-day window.
他坐下来为口哨写词，他在两天的时间里为所有歌曲都这样做了。
He wrote all of the words with no revisions and no changes, which is something that he said has never happened to him before in his life.
他写下的所有文字都没有修改、没有改变，他说这是他一生中从未发生过的事情。
Then he came to the studio with all of his instruments, and he would try to learn the song—how he was going to do the song.
然后他带着所有的乐器来到录音室，他会尝试学习这首歌——他将如何创作这首歌。
While he was learning to do the song, the band was learning the song, the changes.
当他学习这首歌时，乐队也在学习这首歌和变化。
We did this for the first week, and it was really a mess.
我们第一周就这么做了，真的很混乱。
It was a mess to the point where Neil got to the point where he was able to play the songs, but it didn’t sound like the band would ever be able to play the songs.
当时情况一片混乱，尼尔能够演奏这些歌曲，但听起来乐队永远无法演奏这些歌曲。
I can’t tell you why it felt like that, but it just sounded completely lost.
我无法告诉你为什么会有这样的感觉，但听起来完全迷失了。
That was our first week of recording.
那是我们录制的第一周。
I will tell you I was concerned, but we’re thinking, “Okay, maybe next week.
我会告诉你我很担心，但我们在想，“好吧，也许下周。
Maybe this will be the first step in learning the songs, and next week they’ll learn the songs and be able to play them.”
也许这将是学习歌曲的第一步，下周他们将学习这些歌曲并能够演奏它们。”
We get to the second week, and we’ve gone through all the songs in that first week, and now it’s the first day, Monday of the second week.
我们到了第二周，我们已经听完了第一周的所有歌曲，现在是第一天，第二周的星期一。
Neil says to Ralph, “Let’s play this.” He names one of the songs.
尼尔对拉尔夫说：“我们来玩这个吧。”他为其中一首歌命名。
Ralph the drummer says, “We already played that one.” Neil’s like, “Let’s try it again.” They’re like, “I think we did it good.”
鼓手拉尔夫说：“我们已经演奏过那首了。”尼尔说：“我们再试一次吧。”他们会说，“我认为我们做得很好。”
There was this sense of like, were we watching the same movie?
有一种感觉，我们看的是同一部电影吗？
Because it was so far off.
因为那是太遥远了。
On the second week, we tried doing some of the songs again.
第二周，我们又尝试了一些歌曲。
Ralph was not really into it.
拉尔夫并不真正感兴趣。
He’s like, “I feel like we already played them.” We play them again, and it’s certainly not better.
他说，“我觉得我们已经玩过它们了。”我们又玩了一遍，结果肯定没有更好。
Then Ralph’s like, “Let’s listen back to that first week.
然后拉尔夫说：“让我们回顾一下第一周的情况。
I think it was really good.” We go back and we listen, and you could hear there’s something there, but it’s so hidden in mistakes.
我认为这真的很好。”我们回去听，你可以听到那里有什么东西，但它隐藏在错误中。
I don’t even know how to describe it because it truly was a mess, but if you really listen to the mess and say, “Okay, let’s take out that instrument in that spot.
我什至不知道如何描述它，因为它确实一团糟，但如果你真的听着一团乱，然后说：“好吧，让我们把那个地方的乐器拿出来。
Okay, what does that sound like?
好吧，这听起来怎么样？
What about if you turn up this guy in this spot?”
如果你在这个地方找到这个人怎么办？”
We went through it, and I would say the entire album was recorded in that first week when none of us knew.
我们经历了它，我想说整张专辑是在第一周录制的，当时我们谁也不知道。
I certainly didn’t know it.
我当然不知道。
Neil didn’t know it, for sure.
尼尔当然不知道。
At the end of the first week, he’s like, “Wow, I hope next week’s going to be better than this.” It was wild.
第一周结束时，他会说：“哇，我希望下周会比这更好。”很狂野。
That’s the first time I ever had that experience.
那是我第一次有这样的经历。
I think it’s a beautiful album.
我认为这是一张漂亮的专辑。
Now it transformed.
现在它转变了。
We did a lot of work to help it transform, but the fact that it was unrecognizable to being something that’s so beautiful now.
我们做了很多工作来帮助它转变，但事实是它现在变得如此美丽，以至于无法被认出。
It’s different.
这是不同的。
I’ve never had that experience before.
我以前从未有过这样的经历。
I will buy that one.
我会买那个。
What was Johnny Cash like?
约翰尼·卡什是什么样的人？
Beautiful, quiet, soulful, really smart, knew every song ever written up to a certain period of time.
美丽、安静、深情、非常聪明，知道每一首歌都是在某个时期写的。
He didn’t know modern music, but he knew the history of music through probably at least ’70s country music.
他不懂现代音乐，但他至少通过 70 年代的乡村音乐了解了音乐史。
Seemed to know everything about history and knew a tremendous amount about religion, spirituality, and Christianity.
似乎了解历史的一切，并且对宗教、灵性和基督教了解很多。
Last two questions.
最后两个问题。
First, your new book—again, the title is The Creative Act: A Way of Being, but what does that book mean to you?
首先，你的新书——同样，书名是《创意行为：一种存在方式》，但这本书对你来说意味着什么？
Final question, in music, what is it you might be likely to do next?
最后一个问题，在音乐方面，你下一步可能会做什么？
The book is an attempt to share the type of thinking that happens in the recording studio with the artists that I get to work with.
这本书试图与我合作的艺术家分享录音室中发生的思维类型。
I’m hoping that it can open someone’s mind to possibilities of a different way of doing things.
我希望它能够让人们敞开心扉，接受不同的做事方式的可能性。
I don’t know that it’s for everybody, but if it’s for you, I hope that you know about it.
我不知道这是否适合所有人，但如果适合你，我希望你知道。
I had an interesting experience.
我有一次有趣的经历。
I read two reviews of the book in two big financial newspapers.
我在两家大型财经报纸上读到了这本书的两篇评论。
One of them absolutely hated the book.
其中一个人非常讨厌这本书。
I read that review first, and it just made me laugh because it’s like they didn’t feel the book at all.
我先读了那篇评论，这让我笑了，因为好像他们根本没有感觉到这本书。
Then, I read the second one and they loved the book.
然后，我读了第二本，他们喜欢这本书。
It was so interesting to see these two opposing points of view about the same piece of work.
看到关于同一件作品的两种相反的观点真是太有趣了。
It made me feel good because one of the things I talk about in the book is that the best work divides the audience, and that you want to make work that some people love and some people hate.
这让我感觉很好，因为我在书中谈到的一件事是，最好的作品会划分观众，你想要制作一些人喜欢和一些人讨厌的作品。
If everybody thinks it’s just okay or pretty good, it’s not so interesting.
如果每个人都认为还可以或还不错，那就没那么有趣了。
If everybody likes something you make, you probably didn’t go far enough.
如果每个人都喜欢你做的东西，那么你可能做得还不够。
You want it to be extreme enough that the people who love it really love it, and that everyone else just doesn’t—it’s too much.
你希望它足够极端，让喜欢它的人真正喜欢它，而其他人只是不喜欢——这太过分了。
I got to have that experience today, and it was a great experience.
我今天有这样的经历，这是一次很棒的经历。
I hope that the reader of the second piece who really felt it—I hope that people who read like him are able to have the experience of reading the book.
我希望第二篇文章的读者能够真正感受到——我希望像他一样阅读的人能够有读这本书的体验。
I don’t want anyone to read it who doesn’t want to read it or isn’t into this kind of thing
我不希望任何不想读或不喜欢这类事情的人读它
What you will do next—I don’t mean another book, but musically, is there something slated that you can talk about?
接下来你会做什么——我不是指另一本书，而是在音乐上，有什么可以谈论的吗？
Let’s see, what is coming up next?
让我们看看，接下来会发生什么？
I’m in the middle of an album with the Strokes.
我正在制作 The Strokes 的一张专辑。
We recorded the basic tracks here in Costa Rica, and they have to take full forms.
我们在哥斯达黎加录制了基本曲目，它们必须采用完整的形式。
I don’t know how long that’ll take.
我不知道这需要多长时间。
This is a new album with Kesha that I produced that’s very beautiful and different for her.
这是我与 Kesha 制作的一张新专辑，对她来说非常美丽且与众不同。
That’s coming out, I think, soon.
我想，很快就会出现。
Those are the first two that come to mind.
这是我首先想到的两个。
Great.
伟大的。
Rick Rubin, thank you very much.
里克·鲁宾，非常感谢你。
Again, all listeners and readers, the new book is called The Creative Act: A Way of Being by Rick Rubin.
再次，各位听众和读者，这本新书的名字是里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）的《创意行为：一种存在方式》（The Creative Act: A Way of Being）。
Thank you, sir.
谢谢您，先生。