Richard Prum on Birds, Beauty, and Finding Your Own Way (Ep. 126)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m talking with Richard Prum of Yale University.
今天我正在与耶鲁大学的理查德·普鲁姆交谈。
I spotted Richard in the field some while ago and classified him as great American ornithologist.
不久前我在野外发现了理查德，并将他归类为伟大的美国鸟类学家。
Richard, welcome.
理查德，欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Why is there so much infidelity in Australian birds in particular?
为什么澳大利亚鸟类的不忠现象如此之多？
Well, I don’t think that there probably is an extraordinary amount of infidelity in Australian birds.
嗯，我不认为澳大利亚鸟类中可能存在大量的不忠行为。
However, there are certainly a number of classic cases of the investigation of multiple mating in Australian birds, the classic case being the fairy wrens, which have a very weird social system, including one feature, which is multiple mating.
不过，澳大利亚鸟类多重交配的调查确实有很多经典案例，其中最经典的就是鹪鹩，它们有一个非常奇怪的社会系统，其中有一个特点，就是多重交配。
How well can we explain why fairy wrens are different in their mating practices?
我们怎样才能很好地解释为什么鹪鹩的交配行为有所不同？
How much explanatory power does ornithology have there?
鸟类学在那里有多少解释力？
We need to talk a little bit about what makes fairy wrens extraordinary in other ways.
我们需要谈谈是什么让细尾鹪鹩在其他方面变得非凡。
Fairy wrens live in cooperative groups, extended families that include multiple males and females of reproductive age.
仙女鹪鹩生活在合作群体中，是一个大家庭，其中包括多个处于育龄的雄性和雌性。
Usually, a large number of them are at least male offspring of previous years that are hanging around helping mom and dad or some adults raise their relatives.
通常，他们中的很大一部分至少是前几年的男性后代，他们在周围帮助父母或一些成年人抚养他们的亲戚。
This probably arises — and is very common in Australian birds — it probably arises because of very high habitat variability, in particular variability in rainfall, as you see already.
这可能会出现——并且在澳大利亚鸟类中很常见——它可能是由于栖息地的高度变异性，特别是降雨量的变异性而产生的，正如您已经看到的那样。
Thinking about Australia, we think a lot about whether there’s a drought or not, right?
想到澳大利亚，我们会经常思考是否有干旱，对吧？
Under those conditions, you never really know whether you’re going to have enough resources to raise kids.
在这种情况下，你永远不知道自己是否有足够的资源来抚养孩子。
Another feature is that the habitat is rich in some times of the year, and so as a result, they’re packed cheek to jowl, so there’s no real estate for the kids to go off to.
另一个特点是，一年中的某些时候，栖息地很丰富，因此，它们挤在一起，所以没有可供孩子们去的地方。
They stay at home, move into the basement, and help their parents until they can inherit the back 40 or take over or bud off, if you will, into a new territory.
他们呆在家里，搬进地下室，帮助父母，直到他们能够继承后40年的遗产，或者接管或萌芽，如果你愿意的话，进入一个新的领域。
That means there’s a lot of reproductive opportunities between groups, but the groups are in separate territories.
这意味着群体之间有很多繁殖机会，但这些群体位于不同的领地。
A lot of what happens in these cooperative species like fairy wrens, people found out, is that the females mate-multiply.
人们发现，在像细尾鹪鹩这样的合作物种中，雌性会进行交配繁殖。
That is, they can mate with other members of the group besides the mature or most dominant male.
也就是说，除了成熟或最具统治力的雄性之外，它们还可以与群体中的其他成员交配。
Or they can mate with other males in other groups.
或者它们可以与其他群体中的其他雄性交配。
Is it variability of rainfall that makes Australian birds weirder?
降雨量的变化是否让澳大利亚的鸟类变得更加奇怪？
Well, there are two cool things about it.
嗯，有两件事很酷。
One is that, yes.
一是，是的。
People have associated cooperative breeding — this special variation in the avian family life, where you get a cooperative behavior among reproductive-age individuals with unpredictable rainfall.
人们将合作繁殖联系在一起——这是鸟类家庭生活中的一种特殊变异，在降雨量不可预测的情况下，处于繁殖年龄的个体之间会出现合作行为。
That’s a general phenomenon.
这是一个普遍现象。
You find it a lot in different parts of the world.
你在世界不同的地方都能找到它。
How does the equilibrium work there?
那里的平衡是如何运作的？
Rainfall is unpredictable, and then what happens?
降雨量是不可预测的，那么会发生什么呢？
It’s all for the equilibrium, so to speak.
可以这么说，这一切都是为了平衡。
Yes, sure.
是的，当然。
Rainfall is unpredictable, and also, the other combination is the habitat is saturated.
降雨量是不可预测的，而且，另一个组合是栖息地已经饱和。
There aren’t a lot of places to go.
没有太多地方可去。
What that means is that it’s often more helpful or more useful for individuals to delay dispersal until their reproductive age.
这意味着，对于个体来说，将扩散推迟到生育年龄通常会更有帮助或更有用。
Then they’re hanging out, and then, of course, they do work.
然后他们就出去玩，然后，当然，他们就开始工作。
How they have a benefit is, it could be both helping their relatives — kin selection — or they could be gaining experience, direct benefits, like learning how to raise a family before they get a chance to do their own.
他们的好处是，既可以帮助他们的亲戚——“亲属选择”——也可以让他们获得经验，直接的好处，比如在他们有机会建立自己的家庭之前学习如何养家糊口。
Is it the case that birds are more modular in construction than mammals?
鸟类的结构是否比哺乳动物更加模块化？
For instance, they don’t seem to use their wings and legs so much in concert, the way mammals might.
例如，它们似乎不像哺乳动物那样同时使用翅膀和腿。
Or is that not true?
或者事实并非如此？
Well, that’s a really cool thing.
嗯，这真是一件很酷的事情。
Actually, if you go back to the gait of a crocodile or any tetrapod, the front legs and the hind legs were really coupled.
事实上，如果你回顾鳄鱼或任何四足动物的步态，就会发现前腿和后腿确实是耦合的。
You have to do that well.
你必须把这件事做好。
Going back, probably, in the very long bipedal theropod dinosaurs — long history of bipedality in theropod dinosaurs.
或许可以追溯到非常悠久的双足兽脚亚目恐龙——兽脚亚目恐龙双足的悠久历史。
Those things had to be uncoupled, and it required a lot of rewiring both of the motor movement, the brain, the muscles, et cetera.
这些东西必须被解开，并且需要对运动、大脑、肌肉等进行大量的重新布线。
That’s ancient in the lineage of birds.
这在鸟类的谱系中是很古老的。
Think of T.
想想T。
rex with its tiny little forelimbs — very decoupled.
霸王龙的前肢很小——非常脱钩。
Then what birds have done in flight is actually to couple the forelimbs with the tail in flight.
那么鸟类在飞行中所做的实际上就是在飞行中将前肢与尾部结合起来。
We have a part of the axial skeleton which now becomes, in a way, related to the flight apparatus, which are the forelimbs, the front — the wings.
我们有一部分轴向骨骼，在某种程度上，它现在与飞行装置相关，即前肢、前部——机翼。
It basically turns out to be deep dino biology that birds are just taking advantage of in flight.
事实证明，这基本上是鸟类在飞行中利用的深层恐龙生物学。
On the evolution of flight
飞行的演变
Here’s a very stupid question.
这是一个非常愚蠢的问题。
The intermediate steps towards the evolution of flight — why are they efficient?
飞行进化的中间步骤 ——为什么它们有效？
I go through life.
我经历人生。
Let’s say I didn’t have a car.
假设我没有车。
I’ve never woken up and said, “Gee, I would love to glide today.” Right?
我从来没有醒来说：“天哪，我今天很想滑翔。”正确的？
Gliding serves no purpose for me, so how is it we get to flight in between?
滑翔对我来说没有任何意义，那么我们如何在两者之间飞行呢？
Why did that persist?
为什么这种情况持续存在？
Yes, deep controversy there.
是的，那里存在着深刻的争议。
There are lots of careers that have been thrown on the pyre of avian flight origins.
有很多职业都因鸟类飞行而被扔进柴堆。
In detail, there are two theories.
详细来说，有两种理论。
One is the ground up, cursorial theory, that somehow you’re running, and you’re running fast enough, and you start with maybe movements that help you manipulate as you run, and then finally takeoff from the ground.
一种是从头到尾的、粗略的理论，即你在跑步，而且你跑得足够快，你开始时可能会采取一些有助于你在跑步时进行操纵的动作，然后最终从地面起飞。
The other is the arboreal theory, or the trees down, that you start with gliding and control movements of gliding, and then eventually to powered flight.
另一种是树栖理论，或者说树木倒下，你从滑翔开始并控制滑翔运动，然后最终进行动力飞行。
Those folks have been warring at it for almost a century but really going at it for the last few decades.
这些人已经为此争论了近一个世纪，但在过去的几十年里才真正在努力。
Where does it sit now?
它现在坐在哪里？
The interesting thing is that it used to be that the origin of birds was like a menu where you had column A or column B.
有趣的是，鸟类的起源曾经就像一个菜单，有 A 列或 B 列。
Column A was birds are not related to dinosaurs, feathers evolved for flight, and flight evolved from the trees down.
A 列是鸟类与恐龙没有关系，羽毛是为了飞行而进化的，而飞行是从树上进化而来的。
Then the opposite was in column B.
那么相反的情况在 B 列。
Birds are dinosaurs, feathers evolved for thermoregulation or for something other than flight, and flight arose or evolved from the ground.
鸟类是恐龙，羽毛是为了体温调节或飞行以外的其他目的而进化的，而飞行是从地面产生或进化而来的。
It turns out that the dino people were correct.
事实证明，恐龙人是正确的。
Feathers did not evolve for flight, and birds are dinosaurs.
羽毛并不是为了飞行而进化的，鸟类是恐龙。
It turns out the column A was actually right about flight.
事实证明，A 栏关于飞行的说法实际上是正确的。
Flight most likely evolved from the trees down, and there’s a whole bunch of reasons why, starting with gliding like a flying squirrel, and then controlling your gliding, then using those control movements to create a flight choke.
飞行很可能是从树上进化而来的，原因有很多，首先像飞鼠一样滑翔，然后控制你的滑翔，然后使用这些控制动作来创建飞行窒息。
But flying squirrels are not that plentiful, right?
但飞鼠并不多，对吧？
They’re not taking over the world.
他们并没有接管世界。
They don’t seem to do that well.
他们似乎做得不太好。
Yeah, they sure as hell are taking over Borneo, I can tell you.
是的，我可以告诉你，他们确实正在接管婆罗洲。
When you go into Southeast Asia, there are forests where there are incredibly diverse gliding mammals of multiple families.
当你进入东南亚时，你会发现森林里有许多不同科、种类繁多的滑翔哺乳动物。
That’s probably because the forest is made mostly of dipterocarps, which look like really, really high broccoli, 30 meters high.
这可能是因为森林主要由龙脑香植物组成，这些植物看起来就像非常非常高的西兰花，有 30 米高。
There’s a lot of space.
有很多空间。
Why are they gliding?
他们为什么滑翔？
Well, to get away from predators.
好吧，为了远离掠食者。
Or even, ultimately, they get good enough at it that they can use it to disperse from tree to tree.
或者甚至，最终，他们变得足够擅长，可以利用它从一棵树分散到另一棵树。
The idea is that that’s how it started.
这个想法就是这样开始的。
Of course, maybe one of the reasons why flying squirrels haven’t taken over the world is because they never got to powered flight like birds did, which obviously is going a lot further.
当然，也许鼯鼠没有占领世界的原因之一是因为它们从未像鸟类那样进行动力飞行，这显然走得更远。
Now, according to Jennifer Ackerman, duetting of song occurs in about 16 percent of bird species.
据詹妮弗·阿克曼 (Jennifer Ackerman) 称，现在大约 16% 的鸟类都会鸣叫。
How well can we explain the cross-sectional variation there?
我们如何能够很好地解释那里的横截面变化？
Well, a lot of explanation in biology is historical explanation.
嗯，生物学中的很多解释都是历史解释。
I don’t think that comes out in a regression line.
我不认为这是回归线的结果。
One of the things we see is, again, social complexity in tropical birds.
我们看到的一件事再次是热带鸟类的社会复杂性。
You’re much more likely to have pairs that endure for the whole year and resident on a territory.
你更有可能拥有能够存活一整年并居住在一个领土上的配对。
That long-term social relationship will support duetting.
这种长期的社会关系将支持二重唱。
Is this the migratory birds that have lost duetting?
这是失去二重奏的候鸟吗？
Well, duetting is still highly concentrated in just a few groups — songbirds and a few other lineages.
嗯，二重奏仍然高度集中在少数群体中——鸣禽和其他一些谱系。
There’s a lot of things like gulls and penguins and shorebirds that don’t have duetting per se.
有很多东西，比如海鸥、企鹅和滨鸟，本身并没有二重唱。
If you were carving up how much of this universe of duetting is explained by historical persistence and path dependence as opposed to theory, what would your proportions be?
如果你要划分这个二重唱宇宙中有多少是由历史持久性和路径依赖而不是理论来解释的，你的比例会是多少？
I don’t know, but I’d have to say a large amount of it — 30 percent, 50 percent — is history because a lot of these groups originate, like Australian birds — one of the interesting things — all of songbirds are out of Australia.
我不知道，但我不得不说，其中很大一部分 —— 30%、50% ——都是历史，因为很多这些群体起源于澳大利亚，比如澳大利亚鸟类 —— 有趣的事情之一 ——所有鸣禽都来自澳大利亚。
They persisted there for a very long time.
他们在那里坚持了很长一段时间。
There are a lot of lineages with lots of female song and some duetting and complexity in Australia.
澳大利亚有很多谱系，有很多女性歌曲，还有一些二重唱和复杂性。
Then a few, a very few lineages that came out of Australia.
然后是一些非常少的来自澳大利亚的血统。
That kind of long history in a place means that you’re likely to keep something like that, or not have the opportunity or reason to change it.
一个地方如此悠久的历史意味着你可能会保留这样的东西，或者没有机会或理由改变它。
Putting path dependence aside, if you were trying to give us the most fundamental explanation of why sexual dimorphism is different in birds compared to mammals, what would that be?
抛开路径依赖不谈，如果你试图给我们提供最基本的解释，解释为何鸟类与哺乳动物的性二态性不同，那会是什么？
Well, that’s actually a really big question.
嗯，这实际上是一个很大的问题。
COWEN: Of course, but the most fundamental factor — what is it?
COWEN：当然，但是最根本的因素 —— 它是什么？
The most fundamental factor is that most birds don’t have a penis.
最基本的因素是大多数鸟类没有阴茎。
Talk me through the equilibrium there.
请跟我讲讲那里的平衡情况。
There’s a lot.
有很多。
That’s where we start: Most birds don’t have a penis, which means that one of the things that happens in avian evolution that’s distinct from mammals is that the kids require a lot of care.
这就是我们开始的地方：大多数鸟类没有阴茎，这意味着鸟类进化过程中发生的与哺乳动物不同的事情之一是孩子需要大量的照顾。
They’re growing up in the nest, they’re hatching out of an egg, but they’re very, very vulnerable until they can fly.
它们在巢中长大，从蛋中孵化出来，但在能够飞翔之前，它们非常非常脆弱。
Birds have a very rapid period of rapid development.
鸟类有一个非常快速的快速发育时期。
That means that they grow up and leave the nest, and you need two parents to do that efficiently in most diets or most kinds of ecologies.
这意味着它们会长大并离开巢穴，在大多数饮食或大多数生态环境中，您需要两个父母才能有效地做到这一点。
That means the dad’s got to be at the nest.
这意味着爸爸必须在巢里。
We usually thought that you have social monogamy, at least two birds helping raise the young, because the young are so needy and they have to grow up quickly.
我们通常认为社会实行一夫一妻制，至少有两只鸟帮助抚养幼鸟，因为幼鸟非常需要帮助，它们必须快速成长。
But there’s another possibility, which is that they could evolve to be so needy and grow up quickly because they managed to get males at the nest.
但还有另一种可能性，那就是它们可能会进化得如此贫困并快速成长，因为它们设法让雄性进入巢穴。
One of the things that happened in the phylogeny of birds — you’ve got ostriches and their relatives, and you’ve got chickens and ducks, and then you’ve got the rest of birds, and that’s a bunch.
鸟类系统发育中发生的事情之一——有鸵鸟和它们的近亲，还有鸡和鸭，然后还有其余的鸟类，这就是一堆。
That’s the vast majority of them, and in that lineage leading to the rest of birds, the penis evolved away, and the question is why.
这是其中的绝大多数，在导致其他鸟类的谱系中，阴茎进化消失了，问题是为什么。
My own theory is that female birds preferred mates that did not have a penis.
我自己的理论是，雌鸟更喜欢没有阴茎的伴侣。
One of the ancillary benefits of that, one of the correlated benefits of that is that they were no longer subject to sexual coercion or sexual violence.
其附带好处之一，相关好处之一是他们不再受到性胁迫或性暴力。
They could be coerced behaviorally, but they couldn’t be forcibly fertilized.
他们可以在行为上受到胁迫，但不能强迫他们受精。
That means that they have freedom of choice, and what do they do with their freedom of choice?
这意味着他们有选择的自由，他们用选择的自由做什么？
They choose beauty.
他们选择美丽。
One of the reasons why birds are so beautiful is that males don’t have a penis.
鸟类如此美丽的原因之一是雄性没有阴茎。
They have to be subject to choice in order to effect reproduction, and also they have to invest if females require it.
为了实现繁殖，它们必须接受选择，并且如果雌性需要，它们也必须进行投资。
One of the reasons why birds are so beautiful is that males don’t have a penis.
鸟类如此美丽的原因之一是雄性没有阴茎。
They have to be subject to choice in order to effect reproduction, and also they have to invest if females require it.
为了实现繁殖，它们必须接受选择，并且如果雌性需要，它们也必须进行投资。
Now, sometimes albatrosses don’t breed until they’re 20 years old or even, on average, maybe it’s what — 10 years old.
现在，有时信天翁要到 20 岁才开始繁殖，甚至平均来说可能是 10 岁。
What are they doing in the meantime that’s so important?
与此同时，他们在做什么如此重要的事情？
Well, that is a deep question.
嗯，这是一个很深奥的问题。
I actually have a student working on delayed maturation.
事实上，我有一个学生正在研究延迟成熟。
What are they getting better at, right?
他们在什么方面变得更好了，对吗？
Because life history theory tells you that there’s no upside to delaying reproduction if all things are equal, but they must be getting better at something.
因为生命史理论告诉你，如果一切条件相同，推迟繁殖并没有什么好处，但它们一定在某些方面做得更好。
A lot of people think it’s foraging.
很多人认为它是在觅食。
Raising that one young on an island, and foraging hundreds of miles out in the ocean and returning, and there’s the whole social relationship to raise an albatross family.
在岛上抚养一只幼崽，在数百英里外的海洋中觅食然后返回，这就是抚养信天翁家庭的整个社会关系。
It’s tough.
它太硬。
Being efficient enough to raise may take years to develop.
足够高效的筹集资金可能需要数年时间才能培养出来。
You’ve got to get good at foraging before you can raise a baby, and certain diets certainly require that.
在养育婴儿之前，你必须擅长觅食，而某些饮食确实需要这样做。
We have the same thing in many large gulls.
我们在许多大型海鸥身上也有同样的情况。
It could be that they’re getting better at foraging.
可能是它们的觅食能力越来越强。
On the economics of ornithology
鸟类学经济学
One thing I like about ornithology is it has a lot of game theory, just like economics does.
我喜欢鸟类学的一件事是它有很多博弈论，就像经济学一样。
Sometimes when I read it, it feels very familiar.
有时读起来，感觉很熟悉。
Let me ask you whether you all have the same problem that we do.
请问大家是不是也有和我们一样的问题？
With economic theories of signaling, once you get past the very simplest model, typically there are many multiple equilibria that theories are hard to test.
对于信号经济理论，一旦你通过了最简单的模型，通常会存在许多理论难以检验的多重均衡。
They can predict all kinds of things, and you don’t know what to do next.
他们可以预测各种各样的事情，而你不知道下一步该做什么。
Does ornithology have the same problem with signaling, an extreme of multiple equilibria?
鸟类学在信号传导方面是否也存在同样的问题，即多重平衡的极端情况？
I think so.
我想是的。
The question is, is that a bug or is that a feature?
问题是，这是一个错误还是一个功能？
Because nature really does look diverse.
因为大自然看起来确实是多种多样的。
The idea that there could be multiple equilibria is not a problem for us, or at least for me.
可能存在多重均衡的想法对我们来说不是问题，或者至少对我来说不是问题。
Also, you can tell from a lot of my answers, I’m really interested in history itself as interesting, explanatory powers.
另外，你可以从我的很多回答中看出，我对历史本身非常感兴趣，因为它具有有趣的解释能力。
The other feature, though, is that many of my colleagues in evolutionary biology have bought the economic line that communication is about efficient exchange of information.
不过，另一个特点是，我在进化生物学领域的许多同事都认同经济路线，即沟通是关于信息的有效交换。
But there’s a lot of things we communicate about that isn’t about information.
但我们交流的很多事情与信息无关。
A lot of my work has been on ornament and sexual display.
我的很多作品都是关于装饰和性展示。
The popular idea is that beauty and the sexual attraction in birds — and nature in general — is a kind of efficient way to communicate actionable information about mate quality.
人们普遍认为，鸟类的美丽和性吸引力——以及整个自然界——是一种有效的方式来传达有关配偶质量的可操作信息。
But the other possibility is that it’s merely beautiful, that it is an irrationally exuberant market bubble in a genetic mating market, and that they’re off the ranch.
但另一种可能性是，它只是美丽的，这是基因交配市场中非理性繁荣的市场泡沫，而且它们已经脱离了牧场。
I am really fascinated by those kinds of communication that are about suasion and not about information.
我真的很着迷于那些关于说服而不是关于信息的沟通。
There are some contexts where, of course, we know that signaling theory applies well, but there are plenty of others where it doesn’t.
当然，我们知道信号理论在某些情况下适用得很好，但在其他很多情况下则不然。
Here’s part of what bugs me.
这是让我烦恼的部分内容。
As an economist, I see multiple equilibria.
作为一名经济学家，我看到多重均衡。
Whether I like them or not, I feel comfortable with it.
不管我喜欢与否，我都觉得很舒服。
You’ve stressed in your work there’s a certain arbitrariness to a lot of aesthetic values in birds and, indeed, elsewhere.
您在工作中强调，鸟类以及其他地方的许多审美价值都存在一定的随意性。
But if you just look commonsensically at a lot of animals — including birds, including humans — it seems that markers of health and fitness and vigor are strongly correlated with sexual attraction, and that’s not arbitrary.
但如果你以常识观察许多动物——包括鸟类，也包括人类——那么健康、健身和活力的标志似乎与性吸引力密切相关，而且这并不是任意的。
We have these models with a lot of multiple equilibria, and then we have our common sense, which says go to the gym to get a date — and birds also.
我们有这些具有很多多重均衡的模型，然后我们有我们的常识，那就是去健身房约会——还有鸟类。
How does that all fit together?
这一切是如何结合在一起的？
Doesn’t that mean it’s not arbitrary?
这不是说它不是任意的吗？
Well, the interesting thing that I think you have there — you have multiple ways to predict that outcome.
嗯，我认为有趣的是，你有多种方法来预测结果。
I’m going to take an aesthetic example.
我将举一个美学的例子。
For example, say you went to the symphony, and there was a violin concerto or, if you prefer, a blues concert or even a rap concert.
例如，假设您去听交响乐，那里有一场小提琴协奏曲，或者，如果您愿意，可以参加一场布鲁斯音乐会，甚至一场说唱音乐会。
And in the middle of the cadenza or the solo or the biggest thing, the performer begins to break out in a sweat.
在华彩乐段或独奏或最重要的部分的中间，表演者开始大汗淋漓。
They’re really exerting themselves.
他们真的很努力。
The question is this: Do we like the music because they’re sweating?
问题是：我们喜欢音乐是因为他们在流汗吗？
Or do they have to sweat in order to make the musical performance that the audience likes?
还是必须付出汗水才能做出观众喜欢的音乐表演？
Both of those are equal.
两者是平等的。
But most people would say that this is an indicator of quality because they’re pushed to motor limits, but aesthetic processes are going to do the same.
但大多数人会说这是质量的一个指标，因为他们被推到了运动极限，但审美过程也会做同样的事情。
We don’t like the ballet because many amazing artists and athletes are injured in the process of producing the ballet.
我们不喜欢芭蕾舞，因为许多出色的艺术家和运动员在制作芭蕾舞的过程中受伤。
We like it because of the aesthetic impact of the ballet.
我们喜欢它是因为芭蕾舞的美学影响。
There are other hypotheses for why traits are extreme, and maybe at the limits — performance limits or health limits — of those individuals.
对于为什么特征是极端的还有其他假设，并且可能是这些个体的极限——“表现极限或健康极限”。
How do we differentiate between those two?
我们如何区分这两者？
Well, I spend a lot of time thinking about that, and I think that the special hypothesis — the one that demands specific evidence — is that the correlation is actually a result of the relation between the signal and some other kind of benefit, other than the benefit of beauty.
嗯，我花了很多时间思考这个问题，我认为特殊假设 ——“需要具体证据的假设”——是这种相关性实际上是信号与除美观之外的其他某种益处之间关系的结果。
I have cardinals and blue jays in my backyard.
我后院有红雀和蓝鸟。
I enjoy them greatly.
我非常喜欢它们。
I like their colors.
我喜欢他们的颜色。
If bird aesthetics are arbitrary to the mating processes of birds, why do I also find it beautiful?
如果鸟类美学对鸟类的交配过程是任意的，为什么我也觉得它很美？
Isn’t that a funny coincidence?
这不是一个有趣的巧合吗？
That is deeply cool.
那真是太酷了。
I think that’s because humans are intelligent, and we have time on our hands and excess cognition and curiosity to burn, and that leads us to become fascinated by nature.
我认为这是因为人类很聪明，我们有时间，有多余的认知和好奇心可以燃烧，这导致我们对自然着迷。
But interspecific aesthetic regard is a fascinating thing.
但种间审美观是一件令人着迷的事情。
In the case of color and the case of song, it’s explicable in some ways because at least some of this is physics.
就颜色和歌曲而言，它在某些方面是可以解释的，因为至少其中一些是物理的。
There is an inherent wavelength relationship between various color combinations.
各种颜色组合之间存在固有的波长关系。
The same for acoustics, in which we can imagine the harmonic relationship between notes in a bird song, just like we could analyze a piece of music.
声学也是如此，我们可以想象鸟鸣中音符之间的和声关系，就像我们可以分析一首音乐一样。
The real fundamental mystery is why do flowers smell beautiful?
真正根本的谜团是为什么花闻起来很香？
That one does not have , at least immediately, appealing answers because, it turns out, there are no receptor genes in common between a bee and a human, and they’re responding to the same flower odors in a similar way.
这个答案至少没有立即给出吸引人的答案，因为事实证明，蜜蜂和人类之间没有共同的受体基因，而且它们以相似的方式对相同的花气味做出反应。
I don’t think it’s because the olfactory space is just filled with all sorts of other things, and that’s where they’re left, and we learn about that.
我不认为这是因为嗅觉空间充满了各种其他东西，而这就是它们留下的地方，我们了解到这一点。
I think they are generally positive.
我认为他们总体上是积极的。
I think there are graduate-level research questions to be pursued in interspecific aesthetic impression.
我认为在种间审美印象方面存在研究生水平的研究问题。
Building on that example, what can avian evolutionary theory learn from how flowers attract pollinators through signals?
基于这个例子，鸟类进化论可以从花朵如何通过信号吸引传粉者中学到什么？
It seems they use color, they use nectar, they use deceptive mimicry, but it can’t be the same kind of Fisherian co-evolution if the final result is beautiful.
看起来它们使用颜色，它们使用花蜜，它们使用欺骗性的拟态，但如果最终结果是美丽的，那么它就不可能是同一种费舍尔共同进化。
Doesn’t that imply it’s not Fisherian co-evolution that is generating the beauty?
这是否意味着并非费舍尔共同进化产生了美丽？
Well, certainly, one thing about pollinator and plant interactions is that they are different species.
当然，传粉者和植物相互作用的一件事是它们是不同的物种。
From the pollinator perspective, the pollinator is getting food, nectar, and sometimes eating the pollen.
从传粉者的角度来看，传粉者获取食物、花蜜，有时还吃花粉。
From the plant perspective, the plant is getting animal aid in dispersing their gametes to reproduce with other plants.
从植物的角度来看，植物正在获得动物的帮助来分散其配子以与其他植物一起繁殖。
What is the plant doing?
植物在做什么？
The plant is investing in another animal.
该工厂正在投资另一种动物。
In order to do that, it has to advertise its opportunity.
为了做到这一点，它必须宣传自己的机会。
This is really in the realm of advertising.
这确实属于广告领域。
What the flower really has to be is memorably rewarding.
这朵花真正的意义是令人难忘的回报。
To me, that’s like going into the grocery store, and you look at a Coke can or a box of cereal, and there’s literally nothing on the can or on the box that will tell you anything about what the experience of eating or interacting with that product will be like.
对我来说，这就像走进杂货店，你看到一个可乐罐或一盒麦片，罐子或盒子上实际上没有任何东西可以告诉你有关该产品的饮食或互动体验的任何信息。
And that’s exactly what flowers are like.
这正是花朵的样子。
There’s a whole realm of this field in biology, trying to emphasize co-evolution, that particular flowers and particular pollinators interact.
生物学领域有一个完整的领域，试图强调共同进化，即特定的花朵和特定的传粉媒介相互作用。
Of course, those do occur, but the vast majority of flowers are pollinated by generalists and the vast majority of pollinators are generalist pollinators, so they have to be memorably rewarding.
当然，这些确实发生了，但绝大多数花朵都是由通才授粉的，而绝大多数传粉者都是通才授粉者，因此它们必须具有令人难忘的回报。
Some of them are like Doritos — you’ll reach over and grab one, but it’s not really what you need.
其中一些就像多力多滋 ——你会伸手去抓一个，但这并不是你真正需要的。
Then some products you’ll go further for because they’re really, really rewarding.
然后有些产品你会更进一步，因为它们真的非常有价值。
This implies, actually, that bees are making choices.
实际上，这意味着蜜蜂正在做出选择。
If bees were not making choices, then the world wouldn’t be full of beautiful flowers.
如果蜜蜂不做出选择，那么世界上就不会充满美丽的花朵。
All the flowers would be exploiting that one button that was the most efficient way to get that bee just to show up and feed.
所有的花朵都会利用这个按钮，这是让蜜蜂出现并进食的最有效方式。
But of course, all the flowers would come to look like each other, and then they wouldn’t be carrying their pollen to another one of their same species, so the whole thing would fail.
但当然，所有的花都会变得彼此相似，然后它们就不会将花粉带到同一物种的另一朵花上，所以整个事情就会失败。
Bees are making choices, and they’re making aesthetic choices based on the memorably rewarding experience of using a flower.
蜜蜂正在做出选择，它们是根据使用花朵的令人难忘的有益体验做出审美选择。
Of course, for a bee, a flower is like architecture plus olfaction, and actually electric.
当然，对于蜜蜂来说，一朵花就像建筑加上嗅觉，而且实际上是电的。
It turns out that hummingbirds and insects establish a static charge as they fly.
事实证明，蜂鸟和昆虫在飞行时会产生静电荷。
As they approach the flower, it’s like when you rub a balloon on your hair.
当它们接近花朵时，就像你在头发上摩擦气球一样。
You can feel the balloon getting near your hair.
您可以感觉到气球正在靠近您的头发。
Your hair starts to stand up or whatever.
你的头发开始竖起来或者什么的。
As they approach the flower, they can actually experience this electric charge.
当他们接近花朵时，他们实际上可以体验到这种电荷。
The hairs on their body stand up, so they can tell.
他们身上的汗毛都竖起来了，所以他们能看出来。
And of course, when the bee forages at the flower, the charge is neutralized.
当然，当蜜蜂在花朵上觅食时，电荷就会被中和。
They can tell how recently that flower has been visited — before they even get there — by the static force acting on their hairs.
他们可以通过作用在头发上的静力来判断这朵花是最近多久被拜访过的——“在它们到达那里之前”。
This is a subjective experience that really influences their choices in the world.
这是一种主观体验，真正影响他们对世界的选择。
What does that have to do with bird breeding, your question?
您的问题是，这与鸟类繁殖有什么关系？
Well, it has to do with the fact that we put the subjective experience of the animal at the center of our analysis.
嗯，这与我们将动物的主观体验置于分析的中心这一事实有关。
Indeed, that leads, I think, to a really accurate understanding of what’s going on in nature.
事实上，我认为这可以真正准确地理解自然界正在发生的事情。
Now, you mentioned Fisher.
现在，你提到了费舍尔。
We didn’t talk about that, but what is a Fisherian process?
我们没有讨论这个，但是什么是费舍尔过程？
A Fisherian process is a self-organizing sexual selection mechanism where genes for preference — liking long or short tails — become correlated with genes for the trait — having a short tail or having a long tail.
费希尔过程是一种自组织性选择机制，其中偏好基因（“喜欢长尾或短尾”）与性状基因（“具有短尾或长尾”）相关。
Individuals who like long tails are going to find mates with them, and anyone who likes short tails are going to find mates with those.
喜欢长尾巴的人会和它们寻找伴侣，任何喜欢短尾巴的人都会和它们寻找伴侣。
Those two forms of variation will start to co-vary, and that means when an individual selects on a mate, they’re also indirectly selecting on co-varying or correlated genetic variation for preference.
这两种形式的变异将开始共同变异，这意味着当一个人选择配偶时，他们也会间接选择共同变异或相关的遗传变异来获得偏好。
That means the whole thing can just run itself, and of course, it does and produces a lot of diversity.
这意味着整个事情可以自行运行，当然，它确实并产生了很多多样性。
Before we move on, let me put in a plug for your excellent and award-winning book, The Evolution of Beauty.
在我们继续之前，让我先介绍一下您获奖的优秀著作《美丽的进化》。
On birding
关于观鸟
Now let’s go to birding.
现在我们去观鸟吧。
Let’s say you’re a birder with a collecting mentality.
假设您是一位具有收藏心态的观鸟者。
Should it count if you only hear the bird, like a nightingale in a thicket?
如果你只听到鸟儿的声音，就像灌木丛中的夜莺，这还算数吗？
Well, it definitely counts.
嗯，这绝对很重要。
The question is, what does it count for?
问题是，它有什么用呢？
I am one of those birders, and moving from animal subjectivity to birder subjectivity — bird-watching — what the list really is about is accounting for your subjective experience of the bird.
我是观鸟者之一，从动物主观性转向观鸟者主观性 —— 观鸟 —— 这份清单真正的目的是解释你对鸟的主观体验。
It doesn’t just matter that there’s that bird in that tree.
那棵树上有那只鸟并不重要。
What matters is, did you see it or did you hear it?
重要的是，你看到了还是听到了？
That’s your experience of it.
这就是你的经历。
Hearing a bird — for some birds — is more spectacular than seeing them, obviously.
显然，听到鸟叫声（对于某些鸟来说）比看到它们更壮观。
But yes, people do make different sorts of lists.
但是，是的，人们确实会列出不同类型的清单。
Typically, for what’s called one’s life list, people really want to see the bird.
通常，对于所谓的生命清单，人们真的很想看到这只鸟。
“Have I ever seen the bird?” But if it’s for a more minor list — your day list, your state list, or actually data points — then hearing it is just as good as seeing it if it’s for the purposes of data.
“我见过那只鸟吗？”但如果是为了更次要的列表——“你的日期列表、你的州列表，或者实际上的数据点”——那么如果它是为了数据的目的，那么听到它和看到它一样好。
Now, amateurs have so much ready access to technology: iPhones, air pods, so much more.
现在，业余爱好者可以随时使用多种技术：iPhone、Air Pod 等等。
How is this shaping the evolution of bird-watching?
这如何影响观鸟的演变？
Oh, my gosh, it revolutionized it.
哦，天哪，它彻底改变了它。
There are two programs produced by the Lab of Ornithology at Cornell University that have really transformed birding.
康奈尔大学鸟类学实验室制作的两个项目真正改变了观鸟业。
One is called eBird, where you can keep live checklists on your phone as you go.
其中一种称为 eBird，您可以随时随地在手机上保存实时清单。
Then the other is Merlin, which will actually identify photographs, using artificial intelligence of birds.
另一个是 Merlin，它实际上会使用鸟类的人工智能来识别照片。
They take a photograph of a bird and load it up, and it’ll tell you what it is for most parts of the world with incredible accuracy for common birds and really quite elaborate ability for even obscure birds.
他们拍一张鸟的照片并将其加载，它会告诉你世界上大部分地区的情况，对于常见鸟类的准确度令人难以置信，甚至对于不起眼的鸟类也具有非常复杂的能力。
What you have to say now is, in addition to an electronic camera, young folks today are birding with their phones.
现在你要说的是，现在的年轻人除了电子相机之外，还用手机观鸟。
Their data are going up to the cloud in real time and influencing what other bird-watchers are doing and becoming the subject of science through citizen science, so it’s really been a huge revolution.
他们的数据实时上传到云端，影响其他观鸟者的行为，并通过公民科学成为科学的主题，所以这确实是一场巨大的革命。
Birding in this sense is a bit like chess, a quite unlikely winner from the rise of the internet and technology but exploding in popularity?
从这个意义上说，观鸟有点像国际象棋，不太可能从互联网和技术的兴起中获胜，但却迅速流行起来？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I guess my fingers aren’t quite enough on the pulse.
我想我的手指还不够掌握脉搏。
We went through a long time because as a kid, I grew up birding.
我们经历了很长一段时间，因为我小时候是观鸟长大的。
I started at the age of 10.
我从10岁开始。
For me, it was all about going outside.
对我来说，一切都是为了走出去。
It’s like, I’m going out after school.
就像，我放学后要出去。
Screen door slams, and there you go, you’re off outside.
纱门关上，你就到了外面。
I have been concerned for a long time about whether the way children are raised in the modern world that not enough of that is happening.
长期以来，我一直担心现代世界养育孩子的方式是否还不够。
If people get back outside through their phones, I think that’s great.
如果人们通过手机回到外面，我认为那就太好了。
Still, I’m old school.
不过，我还是老派。
I’m not keeping my checklist during the day as we go.
白天我不会保留我的清单。
That means my data aren’t probably as high quality either, but I think some people are.
这意味着我的数据可能也没有那么高质量，但我认为有些人是高质量的。
What’s the most important bird missing from your personal checklist?
您的个人清单中缺少的最重要的鸟是什么？
Hearing it doesn’t count, you’ve already told us.
光听并不重要，你已经告诉我们了。
There are lots of different measures, but sometimes there’s no rationality to it.
有很多不同的措施，但有时没有合理性。
Well, about five, six years ago, I took a trip up to northern Norway to see Steller’s eider, a duck.
嗯，大约五六年前，我去挪威北部旅行，去看虎绒鸭，一种鸭子。
If you imagine between Norway and Alaska — what is there?
如果你想象一下挪威和阿拉斯加之间 —— 那里有什么？
Way, way up there.
方式，方式就在那里。
That’s where they nest.
那是它们筑巢的地方。
In the winter, they only barely come down to Norway or Alaska.
冬天，它们只勉强来到挪威或阿拉斯加。
I wanted to see them, and I got up there.
我想见见他们，于是我就站了起来。
Ten years ago, on that date, I would have seen a thousand.
十年前，在那一天，我会看到一千个。
Five years before, I would have seen a hundred.
五年前，我会看到一百个。
By the time I got there, climate change was happening so rapidly in the Arctic that I got there, and there were none to be seen on that date.
当我到达那里时，北极地区的气候变化发生得如此之快，以至于我到达那里时，那天什么也没有看到。
I’ve been really desperate to see Steller’s eider — just because.
我真的非常渴望看到斯特勒的绒鸭 ——只是因为。
Because you take a notion, and that’s the beautiful thing.
因为你有了一个想法，那就是美妙的事情。
History of life is a tree.
生命的历史是一棵树。
I’ve been very interested in the phylogeny of birds.
我对鸟类的系统发育非常感兴趣。
Who’s related to whom?
谁与谁有关系？
The big tree of life and the tree of birds.
生命之树和鸟类之树。
You can say, “I’ve seen these and these species, but I haven’t seen these.
你可以说：“我见过这些和这些物种，但我还没见过这些。
What’s the species most unrelated to any species I’ve seen that I could .
与我见过的物种最无关的物种是什么？
.
。
.
。
What would be the species that would give me the best addition to my total sample of avian diversity?”
什么物种可以为我的鸟类多样性总体样本提供最好的补充？”
A moa.
恐鸟。
Exactly.
确切地。
The answer right off the bat, for most people, would probably be the hoatzin.
对于大多数人来说，答案可能就是麝雉。
The hoatzin is a very weird vegetarian or leaf-eating Amazonian bird.
麝雉是一种非常奇怪的素食或食叶亚马逊鸟类。
The bird probably most unrelated to any other living bird.
这种鸟可能与任何其他现存鸟类最没有关系。
After that, it gets a lot of specific things to what you’ve seen.
之后，它会得到很多你所看到的具体内容。
The next trip you’re planning — those are the most important birds to see.
您计划的下一次旅行 ——这些是最值得观赏的鸟类。
It seems there’s been a lot of big advances on the research side lately.
最近研究方面似乎取得了很多重大进展。
There’s cheap tagging, much easier radio telemetry, applying machine learning to bird song.
有廉价的标签、更容易的无线电遥测、将机器学习应用于鸟鸣。
What’s the most important thing going to come out of all these very new advances?
所有这些新进展中最重要的是什么？
You’ve only just begun to skim the surface.
你才刚刚开始浏览表面。
I’ll say this proudly, just to embarrass myself.
我会自豪地说出这句话，只是为了让自己难堪。
I used to think that the chicken genome was the most uninteresting thing I could ever imagine.
我曾经认为鸡基因组是我能想象到的最无趣的东西。
It turns out genomics has really been fantastically revealing for features we ultimately want to know about, like the funny features that characterize birds.
事实证明，基因组学确实神奇地揭示了我们最终想了解的特征，比如鸟类的有趣特征。
Transcriptomes — taking a tissue and sequencing all of the RNA that’s being expressed at the moment, getting an idea of what expression states are in different kinds of cells — on up.
转录组 ——获取组织并对当前表达的所有 RNA 进行测序，了解不同类型细胞中的表达状态 ——继续。
On your tagging technology, that’s been fantastic.
就你们的标签技术而言，这真是太棒了。
The Max Planck Institute of Animal Behavior in Germany has put up ICARUS, a big satellite that is capturing in real time data on animal movement, individual animals.
德国马克斯·普朗克动物行为研究所发射了一颗大型卫星“ICARUS”，用于捕捉动物运动和个体动物的实时数据。
They’re getting basically the whole entire movement of a life of a wild animal.
他们基本上了解了野生动物一生的全部活动。
You get enough of those, and sure enough, you got a very new view of what’s going on in the world.
你已经受够了这些，果然，你对世界上正在发生的事情有了一个非常新的看法。
The interesting thing about progress is you never know what it’s going to turn up, right?
进步的有趣之处在于你永远不知道会发生什么，对吗？
That’s where the opportunities are, but figure out what’s the best way to use that technology to answer or address a cool issue in birds.
这就是机会所在，但要弄清楚使用该技术来回答或解决鸟类中一个很酷的问题的最佳方法是什么。
What’s your favorite word for a group of birds?
对于一群鸟，你最喜欢用什么词来形容？
Is it a covey of quails, an unkindness of ravens, a parliament of owls?
是一群鹌鹑，一群不友善的乌鸦，还是一群猫头鹰？
Which one?
哪一个？
I don’t know, I think my favorite word for a group of birds would be the genus.
我不知道，我想我最喜欢的形容鸟类的词是“属”。
That’s a different group, a historical group.
这是一个不同的群体，一个历史群体。
Should we use bird feeders in our backyards?
我们应该在后院使用喂鸟器吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
I love my bird feeders.
我喜欢我的喂鸟器。
I really enjoy them.
我真的很喜欢它们。
I think that there are some downsides, in particular being sites of potential infection for diseases that are moving through.
我认为存在一些缺点，尤其是正在传播的疾病的潜在感染场所。
They’re the opposite of social distancing.
它们与社交距离相反。
They’re social concentrating.
他们专注于社交。
They can be centers for conjunctivitis-like illnesses in finches recently in the United States, et cetera.
它们可能是最近在美国等地雀类结膜炎类疾病的中心。
Do they just worsen the Malthusian equilibrium?
它们只会恶化马尔萨斯均衡吗？
How well does the Malthusian subsistence theory predict bird populations?
马尔萨斯生存理论对鸟类种群的预测效果如何？
Are birds at the margin of subsistence, first of all?
首先，鸟类是否处于生存边缘？
One of the things that Malthus didn’t take into account, or much account, was variability, the fact of an ice storm, for example.
马尔萨斯没有考虑或没有太多考虑的事情之一是可变性，例如冰暴的事实。
A lot of birds in the winter — if you think about birds at your feeder — they can do fine at -5, -10 degrees Fahrenheit, -20 if you get the chickadees — if they have enough food.
冬天有很多鸟儿 — 如果你想想喂食器里的鸟儿 — 它们可以在 -5 华氏度、-10 华氏度、-20 华氏度（如果你养了山雀） — 如果它们有足够的食物的话生活得很好。
But if they don’t have access to food, they will die in a single night.
但如果他们得不到食物，他们就会在一夜之间死去。
These ice storms, which could be just 32 degrees, covering all the food, the whole environment with ice for a day — can be just devastating for lots of birds.
这些冰暴的温度可能只有 32 度，一天之内所有的食物和整个环境都会被冰覆盖，这对许多鸟类来说可能是毁灭性的。
If there weren’t feeders, their populace would really be harmed.
如果没有喂食者，他们的民众就会受到真正的伤害。
Things like Carolina wren, which is a bird expanding — I think a big ice storm will set down Carolina wren populations at the edge of the range in New England or the Mid-Atlantic.
像卡罗莱纳鹪鹩之类的东西，这是一种正在扩张的鸟类——我认为一场大冰暴将使新英格兰或大西洋中部地区边缘的卡罗莱纳鹪鹩种群数量减少。
For five years, it’ll take them to rebound after that.
此后五年，他们将需要反弹。
Do we have good theories of bird property rights, somehow invoking the ideas of relative scarcities to explain when birds are territorial or not territorial?
我们是否有良好的鸟类产权理论，以某种方式援引相对稀缺的想法来解释鸟类何时具有领地性或不具有领地性？
Or is that just a big mess that we don’t understand?
或者这只是一个我们不理解的大混乱？
No, there are some good things.
不，有一些好东西。
If you’re, say, an aerial insectivore — you’re catching insects in the air — you’ll be territorial if you catch insects that are 15 inches away from a branch.
比如说，如果你是一只空中食虫动物 —— 你在空中捕捉昆虫 —— 如果你捕捉距离树枝 15 英寸的昆虫，你就会有领地意识。
Just going out for a little sally.
只是出去玩一点莎莉。
You could defend all those branches — that’s my territory.
你可以保卫所有这些分支 ——那是我的领地。
But if you’re a swift or a swallow, and you’re flying hundreds of meters or hundreds of feet up in the air and all of it, it’s very hard to defend that, so you give it up.
但如果你是一只雨燕或燕子，并且你在空中飞行数百米或数百英尺，那么你就很难防御它，所以你会放弃它。
Lots of marsh birds .
很多沼泽鸟类。
.
。
.
。
Marshes are very rich — lots of bugs.
沼泽非常丰富——有很多虫子。
If you can grab your patch of lily pads or bulrushes or cattails, you can really do well.
如果你能抓住你的那片睡莲、芦苇或香蒲，你真的可以做得很好。
You want to defend that.
你想捍卫这一点。
But if you’re a puddle duck, there’s going to be lots of water there, and things somewhere 18 inches below the surface of the water — you can’t really defend that.
但如果你是一只水坑鸭子，那里会有大量的水，而且水面以下 18 英寸的地方有东西 ——你无法真正捍卫这一点。
For the most part, it’ll vary with your body, your ecology, et cetera.
在大多数情况下，它会随着你的身体、生态等因素而变化。
We can do experiments.
我们可以做实验。
For example, sometimes hummingbirds will defend a floral resource, and then when it gets big enough, they’ll just give it up because there’s no reason to do it anymore.
例如，有时蜂鸟会保护某种花卉资源，然后当它变得足够大时，它们就会放弃它，因为没有理由再这么做了。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Now, in all of these conversations we have a segment in the middle called underrated versus overrated.
现在，在所有这些对话中，我们有一个中间部分，称为低估与高估。
I toss out a name, an idea, a place.
我抛出一个名字、一个想法、一个地方。
You tell me if you think it’s underrated or overrated.
如果你认为它被低估了还是高估了，请告诉我。
Got it?
知道了？
Okay.
好的。
It could be a combination of Rorschach test too.
它也可能是罗夏墨迹测试的组合。
Because what do we think of the thing that’s named?
因为我们对这个名字的东西有什么看法？
But yes, go for it.
但是，是的，去做吧。
Roger McGuinn.
罗杰·麦吉恩.
I don’t know who that is.
我不知道那是谁。
I thought you were an expert about the Byrds.
我以为你是伯兹方面的专家。
Here’s an easier one: Larry Bird.
这是一个更简单的：拉里·伯德。
Larry Bird.
拉里·伯德.
Larry Bird is perfectly rated.
拉里·伯德得到了完美的评价。
The birdsong music of Messiaen, the French composer.
法国作曲家梅西安的鸟鸣音乐。
I think way underrated.
我认为被低估了。
I love that stuff.
我喜欢那个东西。
Charlie Parker.
查理·帕克.
What’s your favorite cut by him?
你最喜欢他的哪一个剪辑？
I know it when I hear it, and I actually have albums where I know which cut is which, but I don’t know .
当我听到它时我就知道了，而且我实际上有一些专辑，我知道哪个剪辑是哪个，但我不知道。
.
。
.
。
I haven’t looked at the liner notes in order to know —
我没有查看内页注释来了解 -
It has to be “Ornithology,” right?
一定是“鸟类学”，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
Underrated.
被低估了。
The Alfred Hitchcock movie, The Birds.
阿尔弗雷德·希区柯克的电影《群鸟》。
Overrated.
被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
I think there’s a lot of damage to be afraid of nature.
我认为害怕自然会造成很多伤害。
I know people that are bird phobic, and I’m not sure whether it arises from something like that movie.
我认识一些恐鸟症的人，我不确定这是否源于那部电影之类的事情。
Is the diversity of the protagonists in The Birds a kind of portent?
《群鸟》中主角的多样性是否是一种预兆？
Does that make it more terrifying?
这是否让它变得更加可怕？
Or just the sinister turn that all of nature is out to get us.
或者只是整个大自然都想来对付我们的险恶转折。
When I saw it — and maybe it is in black and white; I saw it in TV in black and white as a kid — I just crossed my arms, and I don’t know, I’ve never seen it since.
当我看到它时——也许它是黑白的；我小时候在黑白电视上看过它 —— 我只是交叉双臂，我不知道，从那以后我再也没有见过它。
COWEN: John James Audubon as an artist — overrated or underrated?
COWEN：约翰·詹姆斯·奥杜邦作为一名艺术家——被高估还是低估？
I think we’re still underrating what he achieved.
我认为我们仍然低估了他所取得的成就。
Who is your favorite bird artist?
你最喜欢的鸟类艺术家是谁？
Is it him?
是他吗？
An artist?
艺术家？
No. George Miksch Sutton.
不，乔治·米克什·萨顿。
George Sutton, who is an American watercolorist of American birds.
乔治·萨顿（George Sutton），美国鸟类水彩画家。
Fantastic, fantastic renditions of birds.
鸟儿的精彩表演，精彩绝伦。
He really was amazing at both the art and the ornithology.
他在艺术和鸟类学方面确实令人惊叹。
Putting aside birds, travel in Suriname — should I go?
抛开鸟类，去苏里南旅行 ——我该去吗？
I haven’t been in more than a decade, but you should definitely go.
我已经十多年没去过了，但你绝对应该去。
It’s a marvelous part of the world.
这是世界上奇妙的一部分。
I think it’s on hard times in recent decades.
我认为近几十年来正处于艰难时期。
Beautiful, beautiful people and marvelous avifauna.
美丽的人民和奇妙的鸟类。
Let’s say a good friend comes to you, who has a reasonable income, well educated, but not an ornithologist, not even a birder, but interested.
假设一个好朋友来找你，他有合理的收入，受过良好的教育，但不是鸟类学家，甚至不是观鸟者，但很感兴趣。
This person says, “I have a month of my life, and I want to go around the world.
这个人说：“我的生命只有一个月，我想去环游世界。
I can go anywhere feasible and look at birds.” What is the perfect tour for that person?
我可以去任何可行的地方观察鸟类。”对于那个人来说，完美的旅行是什么？
You’re in charge.
你负责。
Where do you send them?
你把它们送到哪里？
That’s fascinating.
这很有趣。
I think one of the things that can impress a person without the experience to understand that the hard work is worthwhile, or will be worthwhile, is spectacle.
我认为，能够给一个没有经验的人留下深刻印象的事情之一就是景观。
Things like penguin colonies in the Antarctic are just profoundly amazing.
像南极洲的企鹅栖息地这样的事情真是令人惊叹不已。
That would definitely be a possibility.
这绝对是有可能的。
Other kinds of ornithological spectacle depend on how young they were.
其他种类的鸟类奇观取决于它们的年龄。
Some people, there are some things —
有些人，有些事 ——
Let’s say they’re 40.
假设他们 40 岁。
They’re able-bodied, but they’re not a rock climber.
他们身体健全，但他们不是攀岩高手。
Do you send them to Colombia?
你把他们送到哥伦比亚吗？
To Panama?
去巴拿马？
Yes, but the problem with some of those places, of course, is that the bird-watching is hard.
是的，但其中一些地方的问题当然是观鸟很困难。
It really is hard work.
这确实是一项艰苦的工作。
I know, I’ve taken students who know little — well, they had had half of my ornithology course — taken them to Ecuador.
我知道，我带过一些知之甚少的学生——好吧，他们已经完成了我一半的鸟类学课程——带他们去了厄瓜多尔。
We’ve seen 490 species of birds in 10 days.
我们在 10 天内看到了 490 种鸟类。
Usually, their brains are fried.
通常，他们的大脑都被炸了。
It’s a lot of work, but I think you need to be over a little hump before you do that, so a spectacle would be good.
这是一项繁重的工作，但我认为在这之前你需要克服一点困难，所以一个奇观会很好。
One thing I did was, in 2018 in Brazil, I went to see a nesting site, a nesting colony of Lear’s macaw.
我做的一件事是，2018 年在巴西，我去看了一个筑巢地，李尔金刚鹦鹉的筑巢地。
It’s an aqua, bluish-green, turquoise parrot, and it nests in a cliff face where there are holes.
这是一种水色、蓝绿色、绿松石色的鹦鹉，它在有洞的悬崖面上筑巢。
They come out of this cliff face in the dawn.
他们在黎明时分从悬崖边走出来。
It’s a huge cliff with a cavern in front of you, and they fly around.
这是一个巨大的悬崖，你面前有一个洞穴，它们飞来飞去。
It was unbelievably moving.
这是令人难以置信的感动。
It’s unbelievably beautiful.
真是难以置信的美丽。
These are intelligent birds that live for decades, know each other as individuals.
这些都是聪明的鸟类，可以活几十年，彼此了解。
Unfortunately, critically endangered, but being well conserved at this site.
不幸的是，该物种极度濒危，但在该地点得到了很好的保护。
There are a number of things like that.
类似这样的事情还有很多。
An oilbird cave is another incredible thing for the right person.
对于合适的人来说，油鸟洞穴是另一件令人难以置信的事情。
These are nocturnal frugivores.
这些是夜间食果动物。
They live in caves in South American Andes.
他们生活在南美安第斯山脉的洞穴中。
They fly out of the cave at night and fly dozens or even hundreds of miles out to forage on avocado and palm fruits that they bring back to the cave and feed to their babies.
它们在夜间飞出洞穴，飞出数十甚至数百英里，以牛油果和棕榈果为食，然后将其带回洞穴喂给幼崽。
They’re called oilbirds because they used to capture them and render them down for oil, and cook with it, and make candles out of it.
它们被称为油鸟，因为它们过去常常捕捉它们并将它们提炼成油，用它做饭，并用它制作蜡烛。
That’s how fatty they are from the avocado oil.
这就是鳄梨油的脂肪含量。
Going to an oilbird cave is amazing.
去油鸟洞真是太棒了。
Often, deep in the cave, you’ll see a forest of etiolated seedlings — all white, no photosynthesis.
通常，在洞穴深处，你会看到一片黄化的幼苗森林——全是白色的，没有光合作用。
They’ve started to propagate in the guano.
它们已经开始在鸟粪中繁殖。
The guano will look like guacamole green because that’s what they’re actually eating: avocados.
鸟粪看起来像鳄梨酱绿色，因为那是他们真正吃的东西：鳄梨。
It’s the edges of ornithological experiences.
这是鸟类学经验的边缘。
For the right person, some things like that could really be the best.
对于对的人来说，有些事情真的可能是最好的。
Why is it that birds such as falcons and cormorants hunt and fish with us?
为什么猎鹰和鸬鹚等鸟类会与我们一起狩猎和捕鱼？
How did that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
Domestication is a cool thing.
驯化是一件很酷的事情。
It’s where people intercede with nature and somehow co-opt the biology.
这是人们与自然求情并以某种方式吸收生物学的地方。
I want to know the “somehow.” Is it that they’re smart enough to figure out gains from trade?
我想知道“以某种方式”。他们是否足够聪明，能够从贸易中获得收益？
Has it become instinct?
已经成为本能了吗？
I think it’s that — mostly that you get the animal while it’s young.
我认为主要是你在动物还小的时候就得到了它。
Traditionally, in falconry, you’d get the bird on Southern migration and capture it.
传统上，在猎鹰训练中，你会在南方迁徙时捕获这只鸟并捕获它。
You could tell it was naïve.
你可以看出这是天真的。
You could fool it easier, so it’s easier to capture.
你可以更容易地欺骗它，所以它更容易被捕获。
Then you’d either hold it for a year over the winter and then let it go, or then later you kept with it.
然后你要么把它持有一年冬天然后放手，要么后来你继续持有它。
They haven’t become a domesticated strain, if you will, like a chicken or a dog, but you’re co-opting the capacity.
如果你愿意的话，它们还没有像鸡或狗一样成为驯化品种，但你正在选择这种能力。
It’s like having a pet parrot.
这就像养一只宠物鹦鹉。
The parrot thinks it’s a human, and the way it develops in this new environment with human social partners is extraordinary indifferent.
鹦鹉认为自己是人类，它在这个新环境中与人类社会伙伴的发展方式异常冷漠。
That’s how that works.
这就是它的工作原理。
The fishing with the cormorants — I don’t know if it’s still going on.
鸬鹚捕鱼 —— 不知道还在继续吗。
It was a tradition in areas of Japan, I know, but I’ve never witnessed it or seen it happen.
我知道这是日本地区的传统，但我从未亲眼目睹或亲眼目睹过它的发生。
I think that those birds are captured from the wild.
我认为这些鸟是从野外捕获的。
They don’t breed them, I don’t believe.
他们不繁殖它们，我不相信。
Here’s a question from a reader, and I quote, “Osprey.
这是一位读者提出的问题，我引用一下：“鱼鹰。
They hatch early July, are flying by the last week of August.
它们七月初孵化，八月最后一周开始飞行。
The adults leave around September 15th, heading south, and the young ones hang around for a couple of weeks bulking up on the late landlocked salmon spawns, then head south.” End quote.
成鱼会在 9 月 15 日左右离开，向南航行，而幼鱼会在这里停留几周，利用晚产的内陆鲑鱼来增重，然后向南航行。”结束报价。
How exactly do they know where to go?
他们究竟如何知道要去哪里？
How exactly does this bird instinct work?
鸟类的这种本能究竟是如何发挥作用的？
This is great.
这太棒了。
This is actually an area where we’re learning a lot because of new technology.
实际上，由于新技术，我们在这个领域学到了很多东西。
Now, we have these GPS transmitters that would get satellite information in real time on where those birds are.
现在，我们有了这些 GPS 发射器，可以实时获取有关这些鸟类所在位置的卫星信息。
This is the work mostly, I believe, of Rob Bierregaard, who has done this in ospreys.
我相信，这主要是罗布·比尔雷加德 (Rob Bierregaard) 的工作，他在鱼鹰身上完成了这项工作。
Most ospreys spend the winter in a very narrow area of the llanos of Venezuela and Colombia.
大多数鱼鹰在委内瑞拉和哥伦比亚大草原的一个非常狭窄的区域过冬。
That’s where the ospreys go, or at least in this continent.
那是鱼鹰去的地方，或者至少在这片大陆上是这样。
What the young ospreys do is they fly off the East Coast, wandering around in the ocean.
年轻的鱼鹰所做的就是飞离东海岸，在海洋中徘徊。
Sometimes they hit Bermuda.
有时他们袭击百慕大。
Sometimes they might return to South Carolina.
有时他们可能会返回南卡罗来纳州。
Then they basically mess it up, but somehow or other, eventually, they get down to the Antilles and they realize, “Oh,” and they follow the chain of the Lesser Antilles down to South America.
然后他们基本上把事情搞砸了，但不知何故，最终，他们到达了安的列斯群岛，他们意识到，“哦，”然后他们沿着小安的列斯群岛的链条到达南美洲。
Then, on the way north, they realize, “Oh, we’ve got the Guajira Peninsula in northern Colombia.
然后，在向北的途中，他们意识到，“哦，我们已经到达了哥伦比亚北部的瓜希拉半岛。
We pass over it, and we get to Jamaica.” Then they go boop, and they return up through Florida to the east.
我们越过它，到达牙买加。”然后他们发出轰鸣声，然后穿过佛罗里达州向东返回。
Then, what do they do next year?
那么，明年他们会做什么呢？
They go down to Florida, jump over to Cuba, come down the islands.
他们南下佛罗里达，越过古巴，来到岛屿。
So it’s a combination.
所以这是一个组合。
What do birds need to migrate?
鸟类迁徙需要什么？
They need to have a magnetic compass.
他们需要有一个磁罗盘。
They also have a sun compass.
他们还有一个太阳指南针。
They have to have a clock and an experience of the sun.
他们必须有一个时钟和对太阳的体验。
They need a map, about which we don’t know much.
他们需要一张地图，而我们对此了解不多。
Then they have to have a bearing, like where they’re going.
然后他们必须有一个方位，比如他们要去哪里。
Then, a sense of how far to go — from the map — whether they have reached their destination.
然后，感觉到还要走多远——从地图上看——他们是否已经到达目的地。
Then, in real life, they experience the world and then refine that with experience.
然后，在现实生活中，他们体验世界，然后用经验完善这个世界。
They have some innate properties or capacities, and then a lot of experience.
他们有一些与生俱来的属性或能力，然后有很多经验。
Of course, a lot of them fail to learn, and I’m sure some of those birds that wander out in the ocean fail.
当然，它们中的很多人都无法学习，我确信那些在海洋中漫步的鸟中有些会失败。
How much is there a generalized G factor for the intelligence of birds?
鸟类智力的广义 G 因子是多少？
For humans, we would call it a G factor.
对于人类来说，我们称之为 G 因子。
If you’re smart at one thing, you tend to be smart at another.
如果你在一件事上很聪明，那么你在另一件事上也往往很聪明。
If a bird is, say, good at using tools or good at playing, is the bird just smart flat out?
比如说，如果一只鸟擅长使用工具或擅长玩耍，那么这只鸟真的很聪明吗？
Or are birds highly specialized in their smartness?
或者鸟类的聪明程度是高度专业化的？
They’re really smart at one thing, and then very stupid at another?
他们在某一件事上非常聪明，但在另一件事上却非常愚蠢？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I think that there are lots of examples of extraordinarily specific smartness in birds that doesn’t apply.
我认为有很多鸟类异常聪明的例子并不适用。
But the birds that are really smart tend to be smart at a lot of stuff.
但真正聪明的鸟往往在很多事情上都很聪明。
There’s a few of them that stand out with breathless smarts.
其中有一些人以令人惊叹的聪明才智脱颖而出。
I’m thinking parrots and crows, corvids and parrots.
我想到的是鹦鹉和乌鸦，鸦科动物和鹦鹉。
They’re the most notable.
他们是最引人注目的。
They stand out above everybody else.
他们比其他人脱颖而出。
Indeed, if you look at the pallial neurons, which are basically the ones with the smart connections, a parrot will have more pallial neurons than a monkey with a brain that’s four or five times as large.
事实上，如果你观察大脑皮层神经元（基本上是具有智能连接的神经元），你会发现鹦鹉的大脑皮层神经元比猴子的大脑皮层神经元要多，而猴子的大脑大小是猴子的四五倍。
They’ve gone a different route in their organization of cognitive complexity, and they’re really doing it really efficiently.
他们在认知复杂性的组织中走了一条不同的路线，而且他们确实非常有效地做到了这一点。
But there are all sorts of extraordinary intelligences that are very, very specific in birds, I think, that don’t have that property.
但我认为，鸟类具有非常非常特殊的各种非凡智能，但它们不具备这种特性。
Do you think ravens and crows understand death?
你认为乌鸦和乌鸦了解死亡吗？
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
A lot of birds go crazy when they see other dead birds, right?
很多鸟儿看到其他死鸟都会发疯，对吗？
They make a lot of noise.
他们制造很大的噪音。
Doesn’t mean they understand death, but they know something’s gone wrong.
并不意味着他们了解死亡，但他们知道出了问题。
No, but I do think there are examples of birds.
不，但我确实认为有鸟类的例子。
Carl Safina has cataloged these.
卡尔·萨芬娜 (Carl Safina) 对这些内容进行了分类。
I don’t know that literature, but there are certainly examples of birds that appear to be mourning or understanding that their compatriots are physically present, but no longer living, whatever that is.
我不知道那些文献，但确实有一些例子，鸟类似乎在哀悼或理解它们的同胞确实存在，但不再活着，无论那是什么。
I wouldn’t be surprised if they do.
如果他们这样做，我不会感到惊讶。
They know each other as individuals deeply and appreciate it.
他们作为个体彼此深入了解并欣赏。
You were mentioning albatross earlier.
您之前提到了信天翁。
One of the things about albatross, the big ones — they nest every other year, so in every albatross colony, there’s an even-year cohort and an odd-year cohort that returns, and they take off the other year, then come back to reproduce.
关于信天翁的一个特点是，大型信天翁每隔一年筑巢一次，因此在每个信天翁群体中，都有一个偶数年群体和一个奇数年群体返回，它们在另一年起飞，然后回来繁殖。
They are monogamous over decades if they live long enough.
如果他们活得足够长的话，他们会在几十年内保持一夫一妻制。
They’ll spend that year off — 9 ½ months or 12, 15 months, whatever it is — and they’ll even fly around the entire Southern continents, around Antarctica a couple of times, then return to the Farrallon or Malvinas islands, and then meet that same mate and then mate again.
它们会度过那一年的假期——9.5个月或12、15个月，无论是什么——它们甚至会绕整个南部大陆，绕南极洲飞行几次，然后返回法拉隆岛或马尔维纳斯群岛，然后遇到同一个配偶，然后再次交配。
They recognize each other.
他们认出了对方。
I certainly think they would understand that that bird is not returning.
我当然认为他们会明白那只鸟不会回来了。
Birds have culture, right?
鸟儿有文化，对吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Just one example of culture: half the birds of the world learn their songs from other members of their species, almost always not their parents.
这是文化的一个例子：世界上有一半的鸟类是从同类的其他成员那里学习歌曲的，而几乎总是不是它们的父母。
What that means is you’ve got a decoupling from a genetic variation and the phenotype or the presentation of the animal.
这意味着你已经与遗传变异和动物的表型或表现脱钩了。
So, what do they do?
那么，他们做什么呢？
They learn from other individuals, and they learn preferences.
他们向其他人学习，并了解偏好。
The birds in the areas around Chicago, New York, and Boston sound differently, just like the people do, and for pretty much the exact same reason.
芝加哥、纽约和波士顿周边地区的鸟叫声不同，就像人类一样，而且原因几乎完全相同。
It’s not because of the wind in Chicago or the baked beans in Boston.
这不是因为芝加哥的风或波士顿的烤豆。
It’s isolation by distance and historical contingency and cultural change.
这是由于距离、历史偶然性和文化变迁而造成的孤立。
Birds have been doing culture for tens of millions of years, which puts us to shame, certainly in terms of diversity.
鸟类已经进行了数千万年的文化活动，这让我们感到羞愧，尤其是在多样性方面。
Of course, we piled a lot of culture on our one little invention, and that’s notable and interesting in its own right too.
当然，我们在一项小发明上积累了很多文化，这本身也值得注意和有趣。
Will puffins perish?
海雀会灭亡吗？
Wow.
哇。
The oceans are getting deeply screwed up, and climate change — both of these combinations are really affecting the Arctic or northern .
海洋正在严重恶化，而气候变化 ——这两种因素的结合确实正在影响北极或北部地区。
.
。
.
。
I don’t think the puffins will go extinct on a couple-century scale, but their distributions and lives are really going to change, I think.
我不认为海雀会在几个世纪的范围内灭绝，但我认为它们的分布和生活确实会发生变化。
Should we try to find the DNA of passenger pigeons and bring them back?
我们是否应该尝试找到旅鸽的 DNA 并把它们带回来？
I find this rewilding business or revivification to be really off-putting.
我发现这种野化业务或复兴确实令人反感。
However, and mostly because of —
然而，主要是因为 ——
But why?
但为什么呢？
The reason why it went extinct is that it needed continental scale, richness of chestnut and oak forests in order to survive, and there is no place in the world where that is.
它灭绝的原因是它需要大陆规模、丰富的栗子和橡树林才能生存，而世界上没有一个地方有这样的地方。
They were extraordinarily social.
他们非常社交。
They only laid one egg a year, which means that they are very, what we call K-selected.
它们一年只产一个蛋，这意味着它们是我们所说的 K-select 的。
As a result, there’s almost no place for them in the world.
结果，世界上几乎没有他们的立足之地。
Having said that, most of my criticisms are also framed by the unrealism of the technology.
话虽如此，我的大部分批评也是源于该技术的不切实际。
Okay, so we find a few genes, and we put them into a band-tailed pigeon, the sister group, the closest extant species.
好的，我们找到了一些基因，然后将它们放入带尾鸽中，这是姐妹群，是现存最接近的物种。
We put them in, and we make it a little bit more like a passenger pigeon.
我们把它们放进去，让它变得更像旅鸽。
Wouldn’t that be cool?
那不是很酷吗？
I’m like, “Well, no. That’s not really cool.”
我想，“嗯，不。那不太酷。”
If we really had the technology to really bring back passenger pigeons and do that, sure, I’d be into that, but we are very, very far from that.
如果我们真的拥有技术来真正带回旅鸽并做到这一点，当然，我会对此感兴趣，但我们离那还很远。
What’s the best overall framework for thinking about the actual value of avian biodiversity when we face real tradeoffs?
当我们面临真正的权衡时，思考鸟类生物多样性实际价值的最佳总体框架是什么？
Are we going to put in more wind power?
我们要投入更多的风力发电吗？
It’s going to kill some birds, but it might help with climate change.
它会杀死一些鸟类，但可能有助于缓解气候变化。
How do we even begin to approach a question like that?
我们如何开始处理这样的问题呢？
Do we ask the economists?
我们去问经济学家吗？
You’re not going to ask me, right?
你不会问我的，对吧？
Actually, I’m just grading term papers right now in ornithology, and I had a term paper in ornithology exactly on this question that was pretty good — by a political science student with interest in environmental policy, so yes.
事实上，我现在正在对鸟类学的学期论文进行评分，我有一篇关于这个问题的鸟类学学期论文非常好——作者是一位对环境政策感兴趣的政治学学生，所以是的。
I don’t know if I’ve got the training to say that, except to understand that, yes, it is real tradeoffs.
我不知道我是否接受过这样的培训，除了了解，是的，这是真正的权衡。
I think we’re making them all the time.
我想我们一直在制作它们。
If there were enlightened policies like carbon tax, et cetera, even a little bit of it, we’d be in a much better situation to see where maybe it would solve itself, but there’s certainly a lot of reason for concern.
如果有碳税等开明政策，哪怕只有一点点，我们就会处于一个更好的境地，看看问题可能会在哪里自行解决，但肯定有很多理由令人担忧。
It’s also a lot of interesting resilience.
这也是很多有趣的弹性。
We’re looking in New England here where I live.
我们正在寻找我居住的新英格兰地区。
We used to have chestnut trees, and they disappeared.
我们以前有栗树，现在它们消失了。
And we used to have elm trees, and they basically became irrelevant.
我们以前有榆树，它们基本上变得无关紧要了。
Now, we’re looking at hemlocks disappearing because of the woolly adelgid, and now the ashes — the emerald ash borer from China has arrived.
现在，我们看到铁杉因毛白蜡虫而消失，而现在，来自中国的灰烬 ——白蜡虫已经到来。
We’re losing major trees, and yet, there still seem to be forests.
我们正在失去主要树木，但森林似乎仍然存在。
We still seem to have a lot of birds in them.
我们里面似乎还有很多鸟。
Now, there are fewer birds — that’s true.
现在，鸟儿越来越少了——这是事实。
There seems to be some kind of resilience despite this change.
尽管发生了这种变化，但似乎仍存在某种弹性。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I wish I had a better answer, but I’m still a historian rather than a predictor in my work.
我希望我有一个更好的答案，但我仍然是一名历史学家，而不是我工作中的预测者。
Is one billion too many sparrows?
十亿只麻雀太多了吗？
No.
不。
Is it wrong to own a cat that you let outside?
养一只猫放在外面有错吗？
Yes.
是的。
Just flat-out wrong?
完全错了？
Yes.
是的。
But if we don’t know how to make the tradeoffs, how do we know it’s wrong?
但如果我们不知道如何进行权衡，我们怎么知道这是错误的呢？
Well, because that is really, really clear.
嗯，因为这真的非常清楚。
You have concocted, created an artificial predator that you’re keeping really happy and healthy, and feeding it, and keeping it in a peak condition, so that you can have it go outside and entertain itself, and its entertainment is damaging to the world.
你们炮制、创造了一种人工捕食者，让它保持真正的快乐和健康，并喂养它，让它保持在最佳状态，这样你就可以让它出去自娱自乐，而它的娱乐正在损害世界。
The scale of cat death — I don’t know the numbers, but way more birds are killed by cats than are killed by all the wind power in America.
猫的死亡规模 —— 我不知道具体数字，但被猫杀死的鸟类比美国所有风力发电杀死的鸟类还要多。
It’s devastating.
这是毁灭性的。
It’s billions of birds.
这是数十亿只鸟。
I read an estimate recently.
我最近读到了一份估算。
It did not seem to be scientifically serious, but it suggested that a billion birds die each year just by crashing into human things.
这似乎在科学上并不严肃，但它表明每年有十亿只鸟因为撞到人类物体而死亡。
Is it plausible that the number is that high?
这个数字这么高合理吗？
Sure, but I’ll tell you that the data for cats is way bigger than that.
当然可以，但我会告诉你，猫的数据要大得多。
Cats kill more birds than all the skyscrapers and windmills, and these are pets, and also feral cats that are maintained by humans.
猫杀死的鸟类比所有摩天大楼和风车还要多，这些都是宠物，也是人类饲养的野猫。
On the Richard Prum production function
关于理查德·普鲁姆生产函数
Very last segment of our chat.
我们聊天的最后一段。
It’s what I call the Richard Prum production function.
这就是我所说的理查德·普鲁姆生产函数。
How did growing up in rural Vermont help influence who you are professionally and lead to your success?
在佛蒙特州乡村长大对您的职业生涯有何影响并导致您的成功？
A lot of my science is deeply rooted in natural history.
我的很多科学知识都深深植根于自然历史。
I am not interested in law-like properties of nature, but in the idiosyncratic instances.
我对自然的类似规律的属性不感兴趣，而是对特殊的实例感兴趣。
A lot of that view grew out of bird-watching, grew out of my childhood and being interested in birds.
很多观点都源于观鸟，源于我的童年和对鸟类的兴趣。
A lot of people do birding and then go into science, but for me, somehow that birding experience affected how I do science.
很多人观鸟然后进入科学领域，但对我来说，观鸟经历不知何故影响了我做科学的方式。
I have a minority style of mind in modern science.
我对现代科学有少数派的思维方式。
A lot of great scientists out there, but most of them are not thinking the way I do, and so, as a result, there just seemed to be more opportunities laid out —
那里有很多伟大的科学家，但他们中的大多数人并不像我那样思考，因此，似乎有更多的机会 ——
What’s that difference in how you think?
你的想法有什么不同？
How would you characterize it in its most fundamental form?
您如何以最基本的形式来描述它？
I really care about birds.
我真的很关心鸟类。
I think that birds are really interesting.
我觉得鸟儿真的很有趣。
I am not necessarily worried about what the other guy .
我不一定担心其他人会做什么。
.
。
.
。
Here’s the deal.
这是交易。
My favorite Onion article was titled “NSF studies show science is hard.” Yes, science is hard.
我最喜欢的 Onion 文章的标题是“美国国家科学基金会研究表明科学很难”。是的，科学很难。
What is people’s response to that, the fact that science is hard?
人们对此有何反应，即科学是困难的？
A lot of people will go and say, “Well, if I’m going to expend a lot of energy, I better do something that somebody else thinks is important.
很多人会说：“好吧，如果我要花费大量精力，我最好做一些别人认为重要的事情。
What do you think is important?” They look to the sides, and they think that doing something that somebody else thinks is important is their mission.
你觉得什么重要？”他们旁观，认为做别人认为重要的事情就是他们的使命。
I think about the birds, and I think, “What is the coolest thing that I could do with my time now, or this day, this next day ahead of me that would solve something?”
我想到了鸟儿，我想，“我现在或者今天、第二天可以做的最酷的事情是什么，可以解决一些问题？”
A lot of people will go and say, “Well, if I’m going to expend a lot of energy, I better do something that somebody else thinks is important.
很多人会说：“好吧，如果我要花费大量精力，我最好做一些别人认为重要的事情。
What do you think is important?” They look to the sides, and they think that doing something that somebody else thinks is important is their mission.
你觉得什么重要？”他们旁观，认为做别人认为重要的事情就是他们的使命。
I think about the birds, and I think, “What is the coolest thing that I could do with my time now, or this day, this next day ahead of me that would solve something?”
我想到了鸟儿，我想，“我现在或者今天、第二天可以做的最酷的事情是什么，可以解决一些问题？”
Of course, I love to connect that to big science, whether it’s where do feathers come from or how do blue birds get blue?
当然，我喜欢将其与大科学联系起来，无论是羽毛从哪里来，还是蓝鸟如何变成蓝色？
Areas that I’ve worked on.
我曾经从事过的领域。
And in many cases, they turn out to have deep implications for their field.
在许多情况下，它们对他们的领域产生了深远的影响。
It’s that regard for the birds.
这就是对鸟类的尊重。
It’s what Donna Haraway calls situated knowledge.
这就是唐娜·哈拉维所说的情境知识。
It’s not the voice from nowhere.
这不是凭空传来的声音。
It’s the specific instance, the view from here and where that “here” is.
这是具体的实例，从这里看到的景色以及“这里”所在的位置。
I recently read a paper in an esteemed journal called The American Naturalist, which is very highly ranked but sounds like a wildflower or garden club report or something.
我最近在一本名为《美国博物学家》的受人尊敬的期刊上读到一篇论文，该论文排名非常高，但听起来像是野花或花园俱乐部的报告之类的。
Anyway, The American Naturalist, and you got 2,000 words into the paper before you realize that it’s about house wrens in Ohio.
无论如何，《美国博物学家》，你在报纸上写了 2000 个字，然后才意识到这是关于俄亥俄州的家鹪鹩。
Now, what is going on there?
现在，那里发生了什么事？
I think people are embarrassed about the position of their work.
我认为人们对自己的工作地位感到尴尬。
They’re so interested in the general principles of, “Oh, this is a big incisive issue that biologists need to solve.” And that generalized frame is leading us often astray to do work that’s uninspired or a lot incremental, like everybody else is doing, et cetera.
他们对一般原则非常感兴趣，“哦，这是生物学家需要解决的一个重大而尖锐的问题。”这种普遍化的框架常常导致我们误入歧途，去做那些没有灵感或渐进性的工作，就像其他人正在做的那样，等等。
You’re pushing me in new ways.
你正在以新的方式推动我。
Maybe it’s being the only bird-watcher that I knew under the age of 25 as a child for a long time, led me to think, “You just got to rely on yourself to figure out what’s of value in your work.”
也许这是我小时候认识的唯一一个25岁以下的观鸟者，这让我思考，“你只能依靠自己来弄清楚你的工作的价值是什么。”
Who first spotted your talent for studying birds, other than you?
除了你之外，还有谁最先发现了你研究鸟类的天赋？
As a kid, I interacted with a number of people that were mostly garden club ladies.
小时候，我与很多人交往过，其中大部分是花园俱乐部的女士。
They were my mom’s age or older retired people.
他们是我妈妈的年龄或年长的退休人员。
They had cars.
他们有汽车。
I did not have a car in fourth grade, fifth grade, so it was a great deal.
我四年级、五年级都没有车，所以这很划算。
They certainly did a great deal to cultivate me, but —
他们确实为培养我付出了很多努力，但是 ——
The garden club ladies are underrated.
花园俱乐部的女士们被低估了。
That’s what you are telling us.
这就是你告诉我们的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
That’s a big one.
那是一件大事。
Then natural history — their introduction to flowers and ferns and to another way of being outdoors, which, actually, I related to much better than the Boy Scouts, which I left pretty quickly.
然后是自然历史——他们对花卉和蕨类植物以及另一种户外活动的介绍，实际上，我对这些的了解比我很快就离开的童子军要好得多。
Then I met a young Yalie, then hippie, a guy named Tom Will, who’s now just recently retired from Fish and Wildlife Service.
然后我遇到了一个年轻的耶鲁人，当时是嬉皮士，一个叫汤姆·威尔的人，他最近刚刚从鱼类和野生动物服务处退休。
He was a great mentor early on in birding.
他是早期观鸟界的一位伟大导师。
Last question.
最后一个问题。
Other than the obvious, such as intelligence, hard work, how do you recognize a very talented prospective ornithologist?
除了智力、努力工作等显而易见的因素之外，您如何识别一位非常有才华的未来鸟类学家？
What is it you look for?
你在寻找什么？
You just get these responses.
您只会得到这些回复。
Luckily, I’ve had the privilege to teach lots of really amazing people, but you’re explaining something to somebody, giving them a bit of a context, and then all of a sudden, you get a shot back.
幸运的是，我有幸教过很多非常出色的人，但你正在向某人解释一些事情，给他们一些背景知识，然后突然间，你得到了回击。
You get a response back, and you’re like, “Oh, yes, they got that.
你收到回复后，你会想：“哦，是的，他们明白了。
This is the next thing.
这是接下来的事情。
They got that.”
他们明白了。”
Then it pitches back, that interplay, where you link something out, and they see where you’re headed and ask you a question.
然后它会向后倾斜，这种相互作用，你将一些东西链接出来，他们会看到你的前进方向并问你一个问题。
And they often will say, “I don’t know if this is a dumb question, but what about blah?” It’s like, “That’s not a dumb question.
他们经常会说：“我不知道这是不是一个愚蠢的问题，但是废话又如何呢？”就像，“这不是一个愚蠢的问题。
That’s the fundamental focus of where this whole field is going.”
这是整个领域发展的基本焦点。”
I used to teach at the University of Kansas.
我曾经在堪萨斯大学任教。
In Kansas, it’s a big, very huge university, but the grad students were as good as anywhere.
在堪萨斯州，这是一所很大、非常大的大学，但研究生和任何地方一样优秀。
You would have a marvelous experience of discovering a student who was really smart and didn’t actually know it.
当你发现一个非常聪明但实际上自己不知道的学生时，你会有一种奇妙的经历。
They might have been the smartest kid in their town and coming off somewhere in West Kansas.
他们可能是镇上最聪明的孩子，来自堪萨斯州西部的某个地方。
Well, they had never had an opportunity to experience what they were capable of.
好吧，他们从来没有机会体验自己的能力。
It’s really that response.
确实是这样的回应。
Are they coming back at you with their own thoughts?
他们会用自己的想法来回应你吗？
Richard Prum, thank you very much.
理查德·普鲁姆，非常感谢你。
Again, a big plug for Richard’s book, The Evolution of Beauty: How Darwin’s Forgotten Theory of Mate Choice Shapes the Animal World — and Us.
再次，理查德的书《美丽的进化：达尔文被遗忘的择偶理论如何塑造动物世界》和《我们》的大宣传。
Thank you, Richard.
谢谢你，理查德。
Thank you.
谢谢。
That was really fun.
那真的很有趣。
Thumbnail photo credit: Russell Kaye
缩略图照片来源：Russell Kaye