Reza Aslan on Martyrdom, Islam, and Revolution (Ep. 162)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Here I am today, live with Reza Aslan.
今天我在这里，与雷扎·阿斯兰一起生活。
Reza has a new book out, which I enjoyed very much.
雷扎出版了一本新书，我非常喜欢。
It is called An American Martyr in Persia: The Epic Life and Tragic Death of Howard Baskerville.
它的名字叫《波斯的美国烈士：霍华德·巴斯克维尔的史诗般的一生和悲惨的死亡》。
Reza has many other books.
礼萨还有很多其他的书。
I very much like No God but God on Islam, Zealot on the life of Jesus, and there is more.
我非常喜欢关于伊斯兰教的“唯有上帝”、关于耶稣生平的狂热者等等。
He is a writer, scholar, producer, and generalist, and expert on the history of religion.
他是一位作家、学者、制片人、通才和宗教史专家。
Reza, welcome.
礼萨，欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
What are some characteristics of a good martyr?
好烈士有哪些特征？
Oh, well, I guess number one would be being willing to sacrifice yourself for other people.
哦，好吧，我想第一就是愿意为他人牺牲自己。
But not just other people — being willing to sacrifice yourself for your beliefs.
但不仅仅是其他人——愿意为自己的信仰牺牲自己。
This, of course, is at the heart of the concept of Christianity, which is all about sacrifice.
当然，这是基督教概念的核心，基督教的概念就是牺牲。
It also is at the heart of Shi’a Islam, which is the majority religion in Iran.
它也是伊朗主要宗教什叶派伊斯兰教的核心。
Baskerville, this Christian missionary who arrives in this Shi’a country — in a way, maybe they had different religions and different beliefs, but they had a very similar way of expressing those beliefs.
巴斯克维尔，这位来到这个什叶派国家的基督教传教士——在某种程度上，也许他们有不同的宗教和不同的信仰，但他们表达这些信仰的方式非常相似。
What makes the Ali story in Shi’ism an effective story of modern martyrdom?
是什么让什叶派中的阿里故事成为现代殉道的有效故事？
Shi’ism as a religion — just to be clear, Shi’ism is one of the major sects of Islam.
什叶派作为一种宗教——需要明确的是，什叶派是伊斯兰教的主要教派之一。
Islam has many, many sects, like most religions do, but the two major sects are the Sunni Islam and Shi’a Islam.
与大多数宗教一样，伊斯兰教有很多很多教派，但两个主要教派是伊斯兰教逊尼派和伊斯兰教什叶派。
Shi’ism arose out of Sunni Islam in the seventh century, primarily as a response to what was fundamentally just a disagreement, a political disagreement over who should lead the Muslim community after the death of the prophet Muhammad.
什叶派起源于七世纪的逊尼派伊斯兰教，主要是为了回应根本上的分歧，即先知穆罕默德死后谁应该领导穆斯林社区的政治分歧。
The prophet’s family lost that argument, and over the next generation or so, Islam became a kind of Arab-centric empire.
先知的家人输掉了这场争论，在下一代左右的时间里，伊斯兰教成为一种以阿拉伯为中心的帝国。
But one of the prophet’s grandsons, Husayn, decided to launch an ill-fated revolution against what he saw as a corrupt and unjust empire.
但先知的孙子之一侯赛因决定针对他眼中的腐败和不公正的帝国发动一场命运多舛的革命。
In 680, in a city called Karbala in modern-day Iraq, his small band of followers, some 70 or so, came into confrontation with the caliph’s massive army.
680 年，在位于现代伊拉克的一座名叫卡尔巴拉的城市，他的一小群大约 70 人的追随者与哈里发的庞大军队发生了对抗。
Recognizing that there was no way to win this conflict, Husayn nevertheless went into battle in the name of justice against oppression.
侯赛因认识到无法赢得这场冲突，但仍然以正义的名义投入战斗，反对压迫。
He and all of his followers were slaughtered, and that moment became the birth of what we now understand as Shi’a Islam, which is why, earlier, I said it has at its heart this concept of the righteous individual willing to die in the name of justice against oppression.
他和他的所有追随者都被屠杀，那一刻成为我们现在所理解的什叶派伊斯兰教的诞生，这就是为什么我之前说过，它的核心概念是正义的个人愿意以正义的名义反对压迫而死。
There are a lot of people who are willing to die for different causes.
有很多人愿意为了不同的原因去死。
If I want to study martyrdom, and I ask, what does the Shi’a tradition and understanding of martyrdom add to, say, Catholic notions of martyrdom?
如果我想研究殉道，我会问，什叶派的传统和对殉道的理解对天主教的殉道观念有何补充？
What’s the extra something that makes it different or special or interesting?
有什么额外的东西使它与众不同、特别或有趣？
That’s a very good question.
这是一个很好的问题。
Of course, in Christianity, martyrdom is modeled on Jesus’s martyrdom.
当然，在基督教中，殉道是以耶稣的殉道为蓝本的。
The idea is that Jesus died to cleanse humanity of their sins, and there’s a very clear spiritualization of that act.
这个想法是，耶稣的死是为了洗净人类的罪孽，并且这一行为有非常明显的灵性化。
It doesn’t have a lot of material aspects to it.
它没有太多物质方面的内容。
Not so in Shi’ism.
什叶派则不然。
Husayn died, not to cleanse anyone of their sins, but to save their mortal lives, to actually release people from oppression and injustice.
侯赛因的死，不是为了洗清任何人的罪孽，而是为了挽救他们凡人的生命，真正将人们从压迫和不公正中解放出来。
It was a very conscious effort to help people where they are now by sacrificing himself for it.
这是一种非常有意识的努力，通过牺牲自己来帮助人们现在的处境。
That’s what I would say is really the fundamental difference.
这就是我想说的真正根本的区别。
It’s that martyrdom in Shi’a Islam isn’t spiritualized in the same way that martyrdom in Christianity tends to be.
伊斯兰教什叶派的殉道并没有像基督教的殉道那样被精神化。
Howard Baskerville, the subject of your latest book — he’s an American missionary in Iran in the early 20th century.
霍华德·巴斯克维尔，你最新一本书的主题——他是 20 世纪初在伊朗的美国传教士。
He’s shot, he dies.
他中枪了，死了。
Is that an effective martyrdom story?
这是一个有效的殉难故事吗？
Or have we just forgotten about him because the external trappings were too weak to sustain our interest?
或者我们只是因为外在的装饰太弱而无法维持我们的兴趣而忘记了他？
We have definitely forgotten all about him.
我们确实已经忘记了他。
Actually, I’d say it’s more proper to say that Iranians have forgotten all about him.
事实上，我想说更恰当的说法是伊朗人已经把他完全忘记了。
Americans never knew him to begin with.
美国人从一开始就不认识他。
His story never really took hold in the United States, although there were front-page stories about his death and his decision to join the revolution.
尽管有关于他的死亡和他决定参加革命的头版报道，但他的故事从未真正在美国流行。
But in Iran, the facts of his martyrdom, which is that he was living in a city that was besieged by the shah’s soldiers, a city that was slowly starving to death, a city that had run out of food.
但在伊朗，他殉难的事实是，他生活在一座被国王士兵围困的城市，一座正在慢慢挨饿的城市，一座已经耗尽食物的城市。
And he and his students at the time made this fateful decision to try to break through that siege and bring help and food to the city.
他和他的学生当时做出了这个决定命运的决定，试图突破重围，为这座城市带来帮助和食物。
And he died in that process, which, going back to what we were just saying is the quintessential notion of Shi’a martyrdom — this is a suicide mission.
他在这个过程中死去，回到我们刚才所说的什叶派殉道的典型概念——这是一个自杀性的任务。
There is no way that this will succeed, but I’m going to do it anyway because it is to free people from suffering and injustice.
这不可能成功，但无论如何我都会这么做，因为这是为了让人们摆脱痛苦和不公正。
In a funny way, it’s not a Christian enough story for the Western audiences.
有趣的是，对于西方观众来说，这并不是一个足够基督教的故事。
That’s a nice way of putting it, yes.
是的，这是一个很好的表达方式。
What do you think of the common criticism that Shi’a Islam ends up too obsessed with personalities?
对于什叶派伊斯兰教最终过于迷恋个性的普遍批评，您有何看法？
You have all these Imams.
你们有所有这些伊玛目。
They’re made of light rather than dust.
它们是由光而不是尘埃构成的。
They command so much attention.
他们引起了如此多的关注。
It’s maybe a tension with the monotheistic emphasis of Islam.
这可能与伊斯兰教的一神教强调之间存在紧张关系。
What’s your take on that?
您对此有何看法？
I think that’s an absolutely correct interpretation of Shi’a Islam.
我认为这是对伊斯兰教什叶派的绝对正确的解释。
Sunni Islam, which is the majority version of Islam — about 80 percent of the world’s nearly 2 billion Muslims would call themselves some form of Sunni Islam.
逊尼派伊斯兰教，这是伊斯兰教的主要版本——全世界近 20 亿穆斯林中约有 80% 会称自己为某种形式的逊尼派伊斯兰教。
Sunni Islam tends to be focused on text and interpretation.
逊尼派伊斯兰教倾向于关注文本和解释。
The Quran and the so-called Sunnah, which is this vast body .
《古兰经》和所谓的圣行，就是这个庞大的体系。
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I think Jews will know what I’m talking about.
我想犹太人会知道我在说什么。
There’s the Scripture, and then there are tens of thousands of pages of interpretation on that Scripture.
有圣经，然后有数万页的关于圣经的解释。
For most Sunnis, that is the sum and total of where authority lies, but not so with Shi’ism.
对于大多数逊尼派来说，这就是权威所在的总和，但什叶派则不然。
You’re absolutely right.
你说得完全正确。
Shi’ism has had, first, a series of so-called Imams, and depending on what kind of Shi’a you are, you recognize a different number of Imams.
什叶派首先有一系列所谓的伊玛目，根据你属于哪一类什叶派，你会认识到不同数量的伊玛目。
Some recognize 6, some recognize 7, some recognize 12.
有的认出6，有的认出7，有的认出12。
Iran is what’s called Twelver Shi’ism, so they recognize 12 Imams.
伊朗是所谓的十二什叶派，所以他们承认12位伊玛目。
You said it right — these are different.
你说得对 —— 这些是不同的。
They’re not like the rest of us.
他们不像我们其他人。
They’re infallible, they get divine authority.
他们是绝对正确的，他们拥有神圣的权威。
They have access to knowledge from a divine source that the rest of us don’t have access to.
他们可以从神圣的源泉获得我们其他人无法获得的知识。
Now, of course, there are no more Imams left.
当然，现在已经没有伊玛目了。
They’re all gone now at this point.
现在他们都走了。
What that does is, I think, twofold.
我认为，它的作用是双重的。
Number one, you’re right, it does become a religion about charisma and a religion about personality.
第一，你是对的，它确实成为了一种关于魅力的宗教和一种关于人格的宗教。
You can very easily see how that can lead to someone like Ayatollah Khomeini taking over an entire country because he taps into that notion of a charismatic personality with access to some kind of divine knowledge that you need to follow.
你可以很容易地看到这如何导致像阿亚图拉霍梅尼这样的人接管整个国家，因为他利用了魅力人格的概念，并获得了你需要遵循的某种神圣知识。
The flip side, however, is that Shi’ism can be much more innovative than Sunni Islam.
然而，另一方面是什叶派比逊尼派伊斯兰教更具创新性。
It’s open to experimentation and reinterpretation because it’s not all about trying to figure out new ways of interpreting static text like Sunni Islam is.
它对实验和重新解释持开放态度，因为它并不像逊尼派伊斯兰教那样试图找出解释静态文本的新方法。
That’s all you’ve got, is text.
这就是你所拥有的一切，就是文字。
That’s it, and people can interpret it in their different ways.
就是这样，人们可以用不同的方式解释它。
Here, you have different sources of emulation, different people who have authority to interpret and reinterpret, sometimes in fairly radical and innovative ways.
在这里，你有不同的模仿来源，不同的人有权解释和重新解释，有时是以相当激进和创新的方式。
Khomeini — that’s what he did.
霍梅尼——他就是这么做的。
We can talk about that later.
我们可以稍后再讨论。
That allows for all kinds of new ways of thinking about this religion.
这使得人们可以用各种新的方式来思考这个宗教。
It’s much more malleable, let’s say.
可以说，它更具可塑性。
There are, I’d say, positives and negatives to that kind of religion.
我想说，这种宗教有积极的一面，也有消极的一面。
If there’s more innovation overall in Shi’ism, why do Sufi traditions seem so strongly tied to Sunni Islam?
如果什叶派整体上有更多的创新，为什么苏菲传统似乎与逊尼派伊斯兰教有着如此紧密的联系？
Because that’s an innovation, right?
因为这是一项创新，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
There are early Sufis in Persia, like al-Ghazali, but much later, it’s about the whirling dervishes and the other side of the world — the Islamic world, that is.
波斯有早期的苏菲派，比如安萨里，但很久以后，它是关于旋转的苦行僧和世界的另一边——即伊斯兰世界。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
Sufism is, of course, the mystical branch of Islam.
苏菲派当然是伊斯兰教的神秘分支。
All religions have a mystical branch to them — Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism.
所有宗教都有一个神秘的分支——基督教、犹太教、佛教。
In scholarly terms, we talk about religions having an exoteric and an esoteric version.
用学术术语来说，我们谈论的宗教有显宗和深奥的版本。
The exoteric is scripture, tradition, rituals — all of that stuff, the external stuff.
显宗是经文、传统、仪式——所有这些东西，外在的东西。
The esoteric is the hidden, mysterious, spiritual meaning at the heart of the religion.
深奥是宗教核心隐藏的、神秘的、精神的意义。
Islam, like all religions, has that esoteric movement, and it’s called Sufism.
伊斯兰教，像所有宗教一样，有一种深奥的运动，它被称为苏菲主义。
While it is true that Sufism arose out of Sunni Islam, in many ways, it has a lot more in common with Shi’ism actually.
虽然苏菲派确实起源于逊尼派伊斯兰教，但在很多方面，它实际上与什叶派有很多共同点。
Sufism balances the divide, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，苏菲主义可以平衡分歧。
One thing that Sufis are adamant about is that religion — not just Islam, but all religion — is nothing more than an external shell.
苏菲派坚持的一件事是，宗教——不仅仅是伊斯兰教，而是所有宗教——只不过是一个外壳。
It’s important.
这很重要。
It’s not like we should just ignore it, but to truly know God requires breaking through that external shell and getting to the very heart of the matter.
我们并不是应该忽视它，但要真正认识神，就需要突破外壳，触及问题的核心。
In other words, Sufis have this line that I’ve always loved.
换句话说，苏菲派有一句我一直很喜欢的台词。
They say, “Religion is the signpost to God.” Religion does nothing more than just point the way to God.
他们说：“宗教是通往上帝的路标。”宗教只不过是指明通向上帝的道路。
But to know God, you have to rid yourself of the ego and become one with God.
但要认识神，你必须摆脱自我，与神合一。
In your understanding, can Sufism stand alongside the prophetic structure of Islam as something separate?
在你的理解中，苏菲主义可以作为独立的东西与伊斯兰教的预言结构并存吗？
Or is it synthesized with it into one consistent picture?
还是与之合成一张一致的画面？
That’s a hardcore, brilliant theological question because it’s been debated for generations.
这是一个核心而精彩的神学问题，因为它已经争论了几代人。
What I will say is this: that Sufism is, like all mystical traditions, incredibly eclectic.
我要说的是：苏菲主义像所有神秘传统一样，是令人难以置信的折衷主义。
It comes in thousands of different forms.
它有数千种不同的形式。
There are some Sufis that are very traditionalist, very hard to even, sometimes, tell the difference between them and your basic Sunni.
有些苏菲派非常传统，有时甚至很难区分他们和基本的逊尼派。
And there are some Sufis that take part in the spectacular displays, sometimes displays that involve putting swords through their bodies, taking part in painful acts, ways of trying to deny the self and the body in a way that most Muslims would look at and say, “That looks nothing like Islam.” Sufism is what a Sufi says it is, basically.
还有一些苏菲派参加壮观的表演，有时表演涉及用剑刺穿他们的身体，参与痛苦的行为，试图以大多数穆斯林看到并说“这看起来不像伊斯兰教”的方式否认自我和身体。基本上，苏菲主义就是苏菲派所说的那样。
If I go to Albania and I chat with the Bektashi, how is their version of Sufism different?
如果我去阿尔巴尼亚和贝克塔什人聊天，他们的苏菲主义版本有何不同？
Then say the Naqshbandi?
然后说纳克什班迪？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
What’s great about Sufism — and again, this is a standard description of all mystical movements — is that they absorb themselves into local cultures and local practices.
苏菲主义的伟大之处——再次强调，这是对所有神秘运动的标准描述——在于它们吸收了当地文化和当地习俗。
When you have these kinds of deeply spiritual, mystical movements, they most often arise from the culture.
当你有这些深刻的精神、神秘的运动时，它们通常源于文化。
They’re not so often brought in from the outside.
他们不经常从外面带进来。
Religion, in its most orthodox sense, is usually introduced to a culture or to a people.
从最正统的意义上来说，宗教通常被引入一种文化或一个民族。
Somebody shows up and says, “This is Islam, this is Christianity, this is Buddhism.” Sufism, like much of mystical movements, is something that comes out of the ground itself and then starts to marry itself to that dominant religion.
有人出现并说：“这是伊斯兰教，这是基督教，这是佛教。”苏菲主义，像许多神秘运动一样，是一种从地下生长出来的东西，然后开始将自己与主导宗教结合起来。
We see Christian mysticism all around the world that in some places looks like paganism, and in some places looks like traditional nature worship.
我们在世界各地看到基督教神秘主义，有些地方看起来像异教，有些地方看起来像传统的自然崇拜。
It uses some of the symbols and metaphors of Christianity, and it becomes an indigenous version of Christianity.
它使用了基督教的一些象征和隐喻，成为基督教的本土版本。
That’s exactly the same thing with Sufism and Islam.
这与苏菲主义和伊斯兰教完全一样。
It depends on where you go —
这取决于你去哪里 —
Let’s say I go to India.
假设我去印度。
How’s Sufism in India?
印度的苏菲主义怎么样？
India, of course, is the most religiously diverse nation on Earth.
当然，印度是地球上宗教最多元化的国家。
Every religion that you can possibly imagine exists in India, including all the forms of Islam.
你能想象到的每一种宗教都存在于印度，包括所有形式的伊斯兰教。
You’re going to see the traditional Naqshbandi version of Sufism, which means people sit around in circles, and they take part in breathing exercises and maybe yogic movements as a way of .
你会看到传统的纳克什班迪版本的苏菲主义，这意味着人们围坐成圈，他们参加呼吸练习，也许还参加瑜伽运动作为一种方式。
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or they recite certain verses from the Quran over and over again as a way of achieving oneness with God.
或者他们一遍又一遍地背诵《古兰经》中的某些经文，作为实现与真主合一的一种方式。
But then you go into the villages, and you see Sufis who are walking on hot coals, for instance, as a way of denying the body.
但当你走进村庄，你会看到苏菲派在热炭上行走，作为否认身体的一种方式。
It really runs the gamut.
它确实涵盖了所有领域。
It really does.
确实如此。
How is Shi’ism different in India?
印度的什叶派有何不同？
I was just in Ahmedabad.
我刚刚在艾哈迈达巴德。
I saw a Shi’ite religious procession of some kind.
我看到了某种什叶派宗教游行。
Yes, Ashura.
是的，阿修罗。
There are a lot of Shi’as in India and in Pakistan — all of South Asia, actually — a large number of Shi’a.
印度和巴基斯坦有很多什叶派——实际上是整个南亚——有大量的什叶派。
How’s that different from the Persian tradition?
这与波斯传统有什么不同？
What theologically, or in terms of practice, would stand out?
从神学角度或实践角度来看，什么会脱颖而出？
The kind of Shi’ism that one finds in South Asia is primarily what we refer to as Ismaili Shi’ism or Sevener Shi’ism.
在南亚发现的什叶派主要是我们所说的伊斯玛仪什叶派或七纳什叶派。
Remember, earlier I said it depends on how many Imams you accept, and the Ismailis accept seven Imams.
请记住，之前我说过这取决于你接受多少伊玛目，而伊斯玛仪派接受七个伊玛目。
In Iran they accept 12 Imams.
在伊朗，他们接受 12 名伊玛目。
Twelver Shi’ism is by far the majority Shi’ism, but the Ismailis are a very robust and expanding religious community.
到目前为止，十二什叶派是什叶派的主体，但伊斯玛仪派是一个非常强大且不断扩大的宗教团体。
A lot of Ismailis here in the United States, actually, and in Canada, but they are primarily focused in South Asia.
实际上，在美国和加拿大有很多伊斯玛仪派，但他们主要集中在南亚。
They tend to be much more into music and dancing and movement, something you don’t see that often in the traditional Shi’ism of Iran.
他们往往更热衷于音乐、舞蹈和运动，这在伊朗传统什叶派中并不常见。
There’s not a lot of music and dancing in the religious ceremony.
宗教仪式中没有太多的音乐和舞蹈。
There’s music and dancing, but it’s not part of the religious ceremony.
有音乐和舞蹈，但这不是宗教仪式的一部分。
Whereas Ismailis will have fazals, these songs that are very spiritual.
而伊斯玛仪派则有 fazals，这些歌曲非常具有灵性。
Like in Pakistan.
就像在巴基斯坦一样。
Exactly.
确切地。
They’ll have concerts that will go on for hours and hours and hours, where people will be dancing and falling into an ecstatic state.
他们将举办持续数小时的音乐会，人们将在那里跳舞并陷入狂喜的状态。
Very much looks like Sufism.
很像苏菲主义。
It just goes to show you that a lot of these religious traditions are bounded much more by culture than they are by theology or doctrine.
它只是向你表明，许多宗教传统更多地受到文化的限制，而不是神学或教义的限制。
A Sufi in India will look a lot more like a Christian mystic than he will look like a Sufi in, say, Macedonia.
印度的苏菲派看起来更像基督教神秘主义者，而不是马其顿的苏菲派。
The Ismailis in India, Pakistan — if you were to boil down their objection to the extra five Imams to its most conceptual level, how would you explain that?
印度、巴基斯坦的伊斯玛仪派——如果你把他们对额外五位伊玛目的反对归结为最概念化的层面，你会如何解释？
What’s wrong with those Imams?
那些伊玛目怎么了？
This is one of those historical arguments that I’m sure made .
这是我确信的历史论点之一。
.
。
.
。
It was so important at one point, and nowadays, we look at it and we think, “Seriously, that’s what you guys broke up for?”
这在某一时刻是如此重要，而如今，我们看着它，我们会想，“说真的，这就是你们分手的原因？”
But if you look at Christian debates over the Trinity, they correspond to some real difference.
但如果你看看基督教关于三位一体的争论，就会发现它们对应着一些真正的差异。
Can man be God, monophysites and so on.
人能是神吗，一性论者等等。
Christian debates over the nature of Jesus resulted in massacres, because one person said, “No, he’s God but in man form.” One person would say, “No, he’s man, but he has God inside of him.” The next thing you know, there are a thousand dead people on the battlefield.
基督徒关于耶稣本质的争论导致了屠杀，因为一个人说：“不，他是上帝，但以人的形式存在。”有人会说：“不，他是人，但他内心有上帝。”接下来你就知道，战场上已经死了一千人了。
The way that this worked was, the sixth Imam — now remember, the Imams are infallible.
其运作方式是，第六任伊玛目——现在记住，伊玛目是绝对正确的。
That’s the note very important for you to understand.
这是对您理解非常重要的注释。
If they’re Imams.
如果他们是伊玛目。
The Imams with the capital I’s in Shi’ism are supposed to be infallible.
什叶派中大写“I”的伊玛目被认为是绝对正确的。
The sixth Imam, before he died, designated one of his sons, Ismail, to become the seventh Imam.
第六任伊玛目在去世前指定他的一个儿子伊斯梅尔为第七任伊玛目。
Then, before the sixth Imam died, the seventh Imam died.
然后，在第六任伊玛目去世之前，第七任伊玛目也去世了。
Ismail died.
伊斯梅尔去世了。
So the sixth Imam said, “Okay, never mind, then it’ll be this other Imam.”
于是第六任伊玛目说：“好吧，没关系，那就换另一位伊玛目吧。”
The vast majority of the Shi’a just said, “Okay,” and they continued with that seventh Imam.
绝大多数什叶派只是说：“好吧”，然后他们继续与第七位伊玛目交谈。
But a minority of the Shi’a scratched their heads and said, “Wait a minute, that doesn’t make any sense.
但少数什叶派人士挠着头说：“等一下，这没有任何意义。
You’re infallible.
你是绝对正确的。
You chose this person, and if you chose that person, then that’s the Imam.
你选择了这个人，如果你选择了那个人，那么那就是伊玛目。
Maybe he’s not really dead.
也许他并没有真的死。
Maybe he is just an occultation.
也许他只是一个隐匿者。
Maybe he’s just in hiding.
也许他只是躲起来了。
Maybe, in fact, he’s a messianic figure who will return at the end of time.” So they broke off at that seventh Imam, and they called themselves Ismailis.
事实上，也许他是一个弥赛亚式的人物，会在时间的尽头回归。”因此他们与第七任伊玛目断绝关系，并称自己为伊斯玛仪派。
How would you describe your own relationship to Shi’ism and Sufism?
您如何描述您自己与什叶派和苏菲主义的关系？
I grew up in Iran, so I grew up in a Shi’a family, but my religion was more a matter of my identity than really anything else.
我在伊朗长大，所以我在什叶派家庭长大，但我的宗教更多的是我的身份问题而不是其他任何事情。
Most people — you go to mosque or you go to temple or you go to church on the holidays, and it’s how you understand yourself.
大多数人——你在假期去清真寺、寺庙或教堂，这就是你了解自己的方式。
By any means, I don’t think I came from a very pious family, that’s for sure.
无论如何，我不认为我来自一个非常虔诚的家庭，这是肯定的。
Certainly, when we left Iran, my dad who —
当然，当我们离开伊朗时，我的父亲——
You were how old then?
那时你几岁？
I was seven.
我当时七岁。
Okay.
好的。
In 1979, I was seven years old.
1979年，我七岁。
My father was never a religious man, so when he came to America, he thought, “Great, now we don’t even need to go on holidays anymore.
我父亲从来都不是一个宗教人士，所以当他来到美国时，他想：“太好了，现在我们甚至不需要再去度假了。
We’re done now with all religion.” Maybe that’s partly why I became so interested in religion, because when you live in a household where there’s no religion anymore, you just suddenly start to wonder why.
我们现在已经结束了所有宗教。”也许这就是我对宗教如此感兴趣的部分原因，因为当你生活在一个不再有宗教的家庭中时，你会突然开始想知道为什么。
I had a very roundabout spiritual journey, but for me, as an adult, when I was studying the world’s religions and still longing for some spiritual edification of my own, I began to read about Sufi Islam, which is a tradition that I didn’t know that much about.
我的精神之旅非常曲折，但对我来说，作为一个成年人，当我在研究世界宗教并仍然渴望自己的一些精神启迪时，我开始阅读有关苏菲伊斯兰教的内容，这是一个我不太了解的传统。
It not only appealed to me .
它不仅吸引我。
.
。
.
。
the way that I put it is that I was reading things that I already believed.
我的说法是，我正在阅读我已经相信的东西。
I just didn’t know there was a word for it.
我只是不知道有一个词可以形容它。
Sufi Islam gave me the words for these ideas and these feelings and these beliefs that I felt like I already had.
苏菲伊斯兰教给了我关于这些想法、这些感受和这些我觉得我已经拥有的信念的话语。
That’s why I associate myself with Sufism.
这就是为什么我将自己与苏菲主义联系在一起。
Is it the framework?
是框架吗？
Or is it that you personally have a very definite view about each Imam and which ones are appropriate —
或者说你个人对每一位伊玛目都有非常明确的看法，哪些是合适的 ——
No, no, no, I couldn’t care less about the Imams at all.
不，不，不，我根本不在乎伊玛目。
I am not Shi’a.
我不是什叶派。
I would not refer to myself as Shi’a at all.
我根本不会称自己为什叶派。
What appealed to me about Sufism beyond the fact that — as I’d already said before — that it really does think of religion as the starting point.
苏菲主义吸引我的地方除了这个事实之外：“正如我之前已经说过的”，它确实将宗教视为起点。
I often say when you study the world’s religions for a living, it becomes very difficult to take any one of those religions all that seriously anymore.
我经常说，当你以研究世界宗教为生时，就很难再认真对待其中任何一种宗教了。
It makes it very hard to take their claims to absolute truth seriously anymore, that’s for sure.
毫无疑问，这使得人们很难再认真对待他们对绝对真理的主张。
What I love about Sufism is that it doesn’t take religion or those claims to absolute truth seriously anymore.
我喜欢苏菲主义的一点是，它不再认真对待宗教或那些对绝对真理的主张。
But one thing that Sufism does do, which is very appealing to me, is that at the heart of Sufism is this notion that God — if God is anything — is all things.
但苏菲主义确实做了一件事，这对我来说非常有吸引力，那就是苏菲主义的核心是这样一种观念：上帝——“如果上帝是某种东西的话——”就是一切。
That God is all and all is God.
神就是一切，一切就是神。
That you and me and this desk and this microphone — if a thing exists, it exists only insofar as it shares in the existence of the only thing that exists.
你和我，这张桌子和这个麦克风 ——如果一个东西存在，它的存在只是因为它分享了唯一存在的东西的存在。
There’s this concept of divine unity at the heart of Sufism that I’ve always found very appealing spiritually speaking, and that’s why I was drawn to it.
苏菲主义的核心是神圣统一的概念，从精神上讲，我一直觉得它非常有吸引力，这就是我被它吸引的原因。
If you had to describe what, for you, is more beautiful in Islam than in other religions, what would it be?
如果你必须描述一下，对你来说，伊斯兰教比其他宗教更美丽，那会是什么？
That!
那！
That.
那。
That, yes.
那个，是的。
That is not to say that there aren’t other religions that hold something similar to this notion.
这并不是说没有其他宗教持有类似的观念。
Buddhism also believes that all things are the same, except that in Buddhism, the thing that all things are is an illusion.
佛教也认为一切事物都是相同的，只是在佛教中，一切事物都是幻象。
All things are nothing.
万物皆无。
There is nothing.
没有什么。
Nothing exists, you don’t exist, nothing exists.
什么都不存在，你不存在，什么都不存在。
Sufism is the opposite end of that.
苏菲主义则与之相反。
Yes, all things are the same, but all those things are one thing, and that one thing is God.
是的，一切事物都是一样的，但所有这些事物都是一件事，而那一件事就是神。
You worry that that slides into Spinoza and pantheism?
您担心这会陷入斯宾诺莎和泛神论吗？
What keeps that move away?
是什么阻止了这种转变？
I am an unapologetic pantheist.
我是一个毫无歉意的泛神论者。
I don’t have a problem being called a pantheist at all.
我完全不介意被称为泛神论者。
I do believe that all things are united, that all things are one.
我确实相信万事万物都是统一的，万事万物都是一。
I do believe that if there is a thing called God, whatever that thing is, it’s pure existence, and I share in that existence.
我确实相信，如果有一个叫做上帝的东西，无论那个东西是什么，它都是纯粹的存在，我分享那个存在。
If there’s this one all-encompassing thing, to what do we compare it to, to distinguish secular pantheism from religious or spiritual pantheism?
如果有这样一个包罗万象的东西，我们将它与什么进行比较，以区分世俗泛神论和宗教或精神泛神论？
I guess what I would say is the difference between monism and pantheism.
我想我要说的是一元论和泛神论之间的区别。
Spinoza’s idea is that all things are made of the same thing — which, by the way, he was right, as far as we know so far, that everything that exists today has always existed and will always exist as long as the universe exists.
斯宾诺莎的观点是，所有的事物都是由同一种事物构成的——顺便说一句，据我们目前所知，他是对的，即只要宇宙存在，今天存在的一切就一直存在并且将永远存在。
That’s a scientific statement, not a religious one, but it sounds a lot like Sufism to me, that everything that exists always existed and will always exist as long as the universe exists, as long as you define the universe as God.
这是一个科学的陈述，不是宗教的，但对我来说听起来很像苏菲主义，只要宇宙存在，只要你将宇宙定义为上帝，一切存在的东西就一直存在，并且将永远存在。
That’s what I would say is the difference between your delineation of secular pantheism and religious pantheism.
我想说的就是你对世俗泛神论和宗教泛神论的描述之间的区别。
As you know, Wahhabism is often cited as a whipping boy for what people don’t like about Islam.
如您所知，瓦哈比主义经常被认为是人们不喜欢伊斯兰教的替罪羊。
Is there something virtuous or beautiful in Wahhabism?
瓦哈比教中有什么善良或美丽的东西吗？
Or is that a view you’re opposed to?
或者这是您反对的观点？
Or are Westerners understanding it correctly?
或者西方人的理解正确吗？
Can you steel-man Wahhabism for me?
你能给我钢铁侠瓦哈比主义吗？
Yes, that’s good, okay.
是的，这很好，好吧。
I pride myself in being a scholar of religions, and so I should be able to talk about the beauty of all religious traditions.
我为自己是一名宗教学者而感到自豪，因此我应该能够谈论所有宗教传统的美丽。
What Wahhabism has in common with a lot of these religious revivalist movements of the 19th century — remember, Wahhabism arose at the same time as the Second Great Awakening was happening in the United States.
瓦哈比主义与 19 世纪的许多宗教复兴运动有共同点——请记住，瓦哈比主义是在美国发生第二次大觉醒的同时兴起的。
What they all have in common is this desire to return to the pure form of the religion.
他们的共同点是渴望回归宗教的纯粹形式。
This is a time of modernization, and societies look different, and mores are different.
这是一个现代化的时代，社会面貌不同，风俗也不同。
It’s funny because we are talking about the middle of the 19th century, but we’re talking about a time of great technological advances.
这很有趣，因为我们谈论的是 19 世纪中叶，但我们谈论的是一个技术取得巨大进步的时代。
We’re talking about coming out of a period of the Enlightenment, in which some of our most basic assumptions about the workings of the universe are being openly questioned.
我们正在谈论走出启蒙运动时期，在这个时期，我们关于宇宙运作的一些最基本的假设正在受到公开质疑。
All around the world, there are religious groups that are reacting to this movement by reverting.
世界各地都有宗教团体通过回归来应对这一运动。
“Let’s revert to the fundamentals of our faith.” This is where the term fundamentalism came from.
“让我们回到我们信仰的基础上来。”这就是原教旨主义一词的由来。
“Let’s purify our religion of all of these innovations that have crept inside of it.” The same sense that gives you the puritanical version of Christianity gave birth to the puritanical version of Islam.
“让我们净化我们的宗教，清除其中潜藏的所有这些创新。”给你清教徒版本的基督教的同样感觉也催生了清教徒版本的伊斯兰教。
This puritanical version of Islam, however, had one very big advantage, which is that it became the state religion of what very quickly became the richest nation on Earth, the Saudi clan and, of course, Saudi Arabia.
然而，这种清教徒式的伊斯兰教有一个很大的优势，那就是它成为了很快成为地球上最富有的国家、沙特家族，当然还有沙特阿拉伯的国教。
The Saudi clan was able to take control over the Arabian Peninsula and defeat all of the other clans by marrying itself to this puritanical form of Islam called Wahhabism.
沙特家族通过与瓦哈比教这种清教徒形式的伊斯兰教联姻，从而控制了阿拉伯半岛并击败了所有其他家族。
Then, that clan learned the lesson that everyone eventually learns, which is, there’s no such thing as controlling fundamentalism.
然后，那个家族得到了每个人最终都得到的教训，那就是，不存在控制原教旨主义这样的事情。
You may think that you are in charge of it, but you’re not.
你可能认为你负责这件事，但事实并非如此。
Just look at the last 60, 70 years of history, and that will tell you what Wahhabism with Saudi funding and control and power has done, not just to Islam but to the world.
只要看看过去 60、70 年的历史，就会告诉你沙特资助、控制和权力的瓦哈比主义不仅对伊斯兰教，而且对世界做了什么。
So, I said one nice thing about it.
所以，我说了一件好事。
COWEN: Is it a motivational problem for Islam that it has a kind of final, once-and-for-all revelation?
考恩：对于伊斯兰教来说，它有一种最终的、一劳永逸的启示，这是一个动机问题吗？
It’s not as clear what you’re waiting for.
目前尚不清楚您在等待什么。
How do you process that?
你如何处理这个？
If you’re a Jew, if you’re a Christian — the stories are different, but it’s clear what you’re waiting for, right?
如果你是犹太人，如果你是基督徒——故事会有所不同，但很明显你在等待什么，对吧？
Again, we have to differentiate between Sunni Islam and Shi’a Islam.
再次，我们必须区分逊尼派伊斯兰教和什叶派伊斯兰教。
Sunni Islam, let’s say.
比方说，逊尼派伊斯兰教。
Islam does have, obviously, a conception of an end of time.
显然，伊斯兰教确实有时间终结的概念。
Obviously, a notion that there will be a moment in which all of creation will come to an end, and a perfected society will arise.
显然，有一种观念认为，所有的创造都会有一个终结，一个完美的社会将会出现。
Islam does have a messianic figure that they called the Mahdi, although that figure, to be perfectly frank, plays a much larger role in Shi’a Islam than it does in Sunni Islam.
伊斯兰教确实有一个弥赛亚人物，他们称之为马赫迪，尽管坦率地说，这个人物在什叶派伊斯兰教中比在逊尼派伊斯兰教中发挥着更大的作用。
Sunnis will say, “Yes, sure, I believe in the Mahdi.” Shi’a Islam begins with belief in the Mahdi, that the end times and the Messiah to come.
逊尼派会说：“是的，当然，我相信马赫迪。”什叶派伊斯兰教始于对马赫迪的信仰，相信末世和弥赛亚即将到来。
In fact, many Sunnis would say the Messiah is Jesus.
事实上，许多逊尼派会说弥赛亚就是耶稣。
Jesus will come back as the Messiah, and then the Mahdi will maybe come before or after him.
耶稣将以弥赛亚的身份回来，然后马赫迪可能会在他之前或之后出现。
It’s very confused, the traditions.
传统很混乱。
But I think you have this really interesting point because the way that Muslims understand their scripture is quite different than the way that Christians understand their scripture.
但我认为你有一个非常有趣的观点，因为穆斯林理解他们的经文的方式与基督徒理解他们的经文的方式完全不同。
It has actually much more in common with the ways that Jews understand their scripture.
它实际上与犹太人理解圣经的方式有更多共同点。
For Muslims and Jews, the scripture itself is holy and divine.
对于穆斯林和犹太人来说，圣经本身是神圣的。
I don’t mean to say the meaning of it, the interpretation of it.
我并不是要说出它的含义，它的解释。
I mean, literally, the words on the page.
我的意思是，字面意思是页面上的文字。
The Quran itself can be a divine body of sorts, right?
《古兰经》本身可以是某种神体，对吗？
Correct.
正确的。
The actual physical pages, the physical words themselves are endowed with divine authority.
实际的物理页面、物理文字本身就被赋予了神圣的权威。
Jews — obviously more conservative Jews — believe the exact same thing, which is why you have to maintain the Torah in a box.
犹太人——“显然更保守的犹太人”——相信完全相同的事情，这就是为什么你必须把《托拉》放在盒子里。
You have to be careful who can touch it and who can’t touch it, and you can’t touch it with your hands.
你要小心谁能碰谁不能碰，更不能用手去碰。
You get a lot of that with Islam as well.
在伊斯兰教中你也能得到很多这样的东西。
You can’t destroy the Torah, like you have to burn it.
你不能毁掉《托拉》，就像你必须烧掉它一样。
You can’t throw it in the garbage.
你不能把它扔进垃圾桶。
It can’t touch the ground — all of those things.
它不能接触地面 ——所有这些东西。
I think Christians look at that and think, “Wait a minute, it sounds like you’re focusing on the physical scripture instead of what the scripture itself says.” That’s not incorrect, actually.
我认为基督徒看到这一点后会想：“等一下，听起来你好像在关注圣经的物理内容，而不是圣经本身所说的内容。”事实上，这并没有错。
It has a lot to do with the way that both Jews and Muslims understand the speech of God.
这与犹太人和穆斯林理解上帝话语的方式有很大关系。
The theory is this, that if the Torah, if the Quran is the word of God, then the word of God can’t be separated from the self of God.
理论是这样的，如果《托拉》、《古兰经》是上帝的话语，那么上帝的话语就不能与上帝的自我分开。
That means the word of God is God in some form.
这意味着神的话语是某种形式的神。
That’s why, no matter what language you speak, you have to learn to read the Torah in Hebrew.
这就是为什么，无论你说什么语言，你都必须学习阅读希伯来语的托拉。
Same with Islam — doesn’t matter what language you speak.
与伊斯兰教一样——无论你说什么语言。
You have to learn to recite the scripture in Arabic, even if you don’t understand it.
你必须学会用阿拉伯语背诵经文，即使你听不懂。
It’s the words themselves, the sound of the words, the recitation of the words that gives you divine power.
正是单词本身、单词的声音、单词的背诵赋予了你神圣的力量。
Obviously, Christians don’t believe that.
显然，基督徒不相信这一点。
For Christians, it’s just words on the page, and who cares what language it is.
对于基督徒来说，这只是纸上的文字，谁在乎它是什么语言。
It’s the meaning behind it that matters.
重要的是它背后的意义。
The words themselves don’t have any power.
言语本身没有任何力量。
It’s what the words mean that have power.
这些词的意思就是有力量。
You can really see this divide between Judaism and Islam on one side and Christianity on the other.
你确实可以看到犹太教和伊斯兰教与基督教之间的分歧。
What do you think of the Kenneth Cragg argument that, at least in many branches of Sunni Islam, the distance between man and God is simply too great, and there’s something cold or alienating about it?
您如何看待肯尼思·克拉格（Kenneth Cragg）的论点，即至少在逊尼派伊斯兰教的许多分支中，人与上帝之间的距离实在是太远了，而且其中有一些冷漠或疏远的东西？
I love Kenneth Craig a lot, by the way.
顺便说一句，我非常喜欢肯尼思·克雷格。
I’ve got to be honest, it appeals to me.
我必须诚实，这对我很有吸引力。
The distance appeals to you.
距离对你有吸引力。
The distance appeals to me.
距离对我很有吸引力。
I’m getting a little bit personal here, but when I was in high school, I became an evangelical Christian for a brief while, and it was a very real and emotionally resonant conversion for me.
我在这里说得有点个人化，但当我在高中时，我短暂地成为了一名福音派基督徒，这对我来说是一次非常真实且情感共鸣的转变。
I heard the gospel story, and I thought it was great, and I believed it.
我听了福音故事，觉得很棒，就相信了。
But I will say that when I look back on that time, the one thing that I always had a hard time with was this idea that Jesus was my best friend, that God is my buddy.
但我要说的是，当我回顾那段时间时，我一直很难接受的一件事就是耶稣是我最好的朋友，上帝是我的朋友。
It’s a joke that my friends and I do all the time, but they gave us this little card with Jesus’s picture on it, and it said, “Jesus in my pocket,” and you were supposed to keep it in your pocket all the time.
这是我和我的朋友们经常开的玩笑，但他们给了我们这张小卡片，上面有耶稣的照片，上面写着：“耶稣在我的口袋里”，你应该一直把它放在口袋里。
I remember thinking to myself, “Do I want Jesus in my pocket?
我记得我心里想：“我想要耶稣在我的口袋里吗？
There’s something that doesn’t feel right about that.”
感觉有些不对劲。”
When I went to college, I happened to go to a Catholic university, and I thought, “Oh, I don’t know anything about Catholicism.
当我上大学时，我碰巧去了一所天主教大学，我想：“哦，我对天主教一无所知。
I’ll go and check out this mass.” There, Jesus wasn’t in your pocket.
我去看看这个东西。”在那里，耶稣不在你的口袋里。
Jesus was way up there on the cross, and you went to him with fear and trembling and distance.
耶稣已经在十字架上，你带着恐惧、颤抖和距离走向他。
I’ve got to say I liked it.
我不得不说我喜欢它。
It appealed to me.
它吸引了我。
Maybe it’s because of the fact that I was raised Muslim, even though at the time, I wouldn’t have really understood what that meant.
也许是因为我是穆斯林长大的，尽管当时我并没有真正理解这意味着什么。
But there’s something about that notion of the distance between man and God that I like.
但我喜欢人与神之间距离的概念。
I want to approach God with that level of reverence, that makes God other, in a sense.
我想以某种程度的敬畏来接近上帝，这在某种意义上使上帝与众不同。
I don’t know if that makes sense, but that’s just my personal opinion on it.
我不知道这是否有道理，但这只是我个人的看法。
If I look at the historical data, what seems to me to be the regularities is that Islam can be quite good for commerce and being a merchant, but not nearly so good for having a stable democracy.
如果我看一下历史数据，在我看来，规律是伊斯兰教对于商业和商人来说非常有利，但对于稳定的民主则不太有利。
Is that a view you would try to talk me out of?
你会试图说服我放弃这种观点吗？
I wouldn’t try to talk you out of it.
我不会试图说服你放弃它。
I would say that I disagree with that, first of all.
首先，我想说我不同意这一点。
Tell me why you disagree because Indonesia is a democracy, but not for long.
告诉我你为什么不同意，因为印度尼西亚是一个民主国家，但不会长久。
It’s somewhat weak.
是有点弱。
You could say Malaysia, but there just aren’t many examples, right?
你可以说是马来西亚，但这样的例子并不多，对吧？
Turkey’s falling apart, democratically speaking.
从民主的角度来说，土耳其正在分崩离析。
Tell me a Christian country that’s doing well with democracy.
告诉我一个在民主方面做得很好的基督教国家。
Western Europe, Canada.
西欧、加拿大。
Canada’s a pretty good one, but I don’t know if I would say that in Canada.
加拿大是一个很好的国家，但我不知道在加拿大是否会这么说。
Here’s what I would say to the first point of that, which is that all religion is good for commerce.
这就是我要说的第一点，即所有宗教都有利于商业。
Capitalism is the opposite of literally everything Jesus ever said about the topic of money or profit or anything.
资本主义实际上与耶稣所说的有关金钱、利润或任何事物的一切相反。
Yet capitalism is almost a religion in Christian countries.
然而，在基督教国家，资本主义几乎是一种宗教。
Whereas Islam and Judaism both forbid the charging of interest and usury, yet both of them have been used very, very easily in order to promote business, and in some cases — certainly when you’re talking about the UAE — have created the wealthiest societies in the world.
尽管伊斯兰教和犹太教都禁止收取利息和高利贷，但它们都非常非常容易地被用来促进商业，并且在某些情况下——尤其是当你谈论阿联酋时——创造了世界上最富裕的社会。
That’s one thing.
这是一回事。
The second thing is, I think there’s a mistake in trying to see a moral code or a moral foundation to a political philosophy like democracy.
第二件事是，我认为试图为民主这样的政治哲学寻找道德准则或道德基础是错误的。
The political philosophy of democracy is that the majority vote gets to basically make the decisions.
民主的政治哲学是多数票基本上可以做出决定。
If the majority of the people are Muslims, then obviously the democracy itself, and the laws that they pass and the principles that they espouse, are going to be tinged with the majority morality, if you will, of the population itself.
如果大多数人是穆斯林，那么显然民主本身，以及他们通过的法律和他们拥护的原则，将带有大多数人的道德（如果你愿意的话）的色彩。
There are countless examples.
这样的例子不胜枚举。
You talk about Turkey.
你说的是土耳其。
Yes, okay, Turkey is having difficulty with authoritarianism.
是的，好吧，土耳其在独裁主义方面遇到了困难。
I will take Turkey today to America under Trump any day of the week.
今天我将在一周中的任何一天带土耳其前往特朗普领导下的美国。
At least, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has autocratic tendencies, just like Trump did, but wasn’t a megalomaniac, possibly narcissistic sociopath.
至少，雷杰普·塔伊普·埃尔多安有独裁倾向，就像特朗普一样，但他不是一个狂妄自大、可能是自恋的反社会者。
Yes, Indonesia is having difficulty.
是的，印度尼西亚正面临困难。
Indonesia has a billion people.
印度尼西亚有十亿人口。
It’s one of the most diverse nations on Earth.
它是地球上最多元化的国家之一。
No, it’s not a billion people.
不，这不是十亿人。
It’s what?
是什么？
250 million, right?
2.5亿吧？
Yes, I’m exaggerating.
是的，我有点夸张了。
Okay, we can talk about India.
好吧，我们可以谈谈印度。
I guess Hinduism isn’t conducive to democracy because India has a billion people, 900 million of them Hindus.
我认为印度教不利于民主，因为印度有十亿人口，其中有九亿印度教徒。
And their democratic situation, even right now, is completely unstable under the leadership of the BJP.
即使是现在，他们的民主状况在印度人民党的领导下也完全不稳定。
Again, I think we can look at political stability or instability around the world, including here in the United States, where almost half of us now, according to most polls, seem to be no longer all that much in favor of democracy.
再说一次，我认为我们可以看看世界各地的政治稳定或不稳定，包括在美国，根据大多数民意调查，现在几乎一半的人似乎不再那么支持民主。
To then tie that instantly to whatever the majority religion happens to be, I think is a false connection.
然后立即将其与大多数宗教恰好联系在一起，我认为这是一种错误的联系。
Let’s go to early 20th century Iran, which is covered in your book, An American Martyr in Persia.
让我们回到 20 世纪初的伊朗，您在《波斯的美国烈士》一书中对此进行了介绍。
There’s a Constitutional Revolution in Iran, 1906 to 1911.
1906 年至 1911 年，伊朗发生了宪政革命。
What was that motivated by?
这是出于什么动机？
This was an era of the early 20th century in which, all around the world, there were these protests and uprisings by people demanding what everyone was referring to as constitutionalism.
这是20世纪初的一个时代，世界各地的人们都在抗议和起义，要求实行大家所说的宪政。
They had different ideas of what that actually meant.
他们对于这实际上意味着什么有不同的想法。
For some people, it meant lower prices.
对于某些人来说，这意味着更低的价格。
For some people, it meant popular sovereignty.
对于某些人来说，这意味着人民主权。
For some people, it meant the freedom to do or say whatever you wanted to.
对于某些人来说，这意味着可以自由地做或说任何你想做的事情。
Constitutionalism as a movement was aflame in Russia, in Turkey, in Mexico, in China.
立宪主义运动在俄罗斯、土耳其、墨西哥和中国如火如荼地进行。
In 1906, where it really began was in Iran in what’s now referred to as the Constitutional Revolution of 1906.
1906 年，它真正开始的地方是伊朗，也就是现在所说的 1906 年立宪革命。
This involved a band of young, zealous revolutionaries who, together with the business and merchant class and the clerical class, the clergy — especially the low-level, mid-level clergy — began to clamor for the creation of a constitution that would outline the rights and privileges of all the citizens and, just as importantly, the creation of a parliament with an elected body, a legislature that would have the ability to curtail the absolute authority of the king.
这涉及到一群年轻、热心的革命者，他们与工商阶级和神职人员阶级、神职人员——尤其是低层、中层神职人员——一起开始呼吁制定一部宪法，概述所有公民的权利和特权，同样重要的是，建立一个由选举产生的机构的议会，一个有能力限制政府绝对权力的立法机构。国王。
Was the influence British or from elsewhere?
影响是来自英国还是来自其他地方？
What fed into this?
这是什么造成的？
It was French and British, but what’s really fascinating is the way in which it so seamlessly integrated traditional Persian political thought and Islamic ideas into the Western conception of constitutionalism.
它是法国和英国的，但真正令人着迷的是它将传统波斯政治思想和伊斯兰思想无缝地融入西方宪政概念的方式。
It was heavily influenced by the British model because what they were actually asking for was a constitutional monarchy.
它深受英国模式的影响，因为他们实际上要求的是君主立宪制。
They weren’t saying, “We want to get rid of the shah.
他们并没有说：“我们想除掉国王。
We want to get rid of the throne altogether.”
我们想完全摆脱王位。”
There were some more radical elements, social democrats, who were actually asking that.
有一些更激进的分子，社会民主党人，实际上是在问这个问题。
But in general, what the call was, was to have something akin to what the UK is: a monarchy that is limited by a constitution and an elected body that can curtail the absolute power of the throne.
但总的来说，人们的呼吁是建立类似于英国的东西：一个受宪法限制的君主制和一个可以限制王位绝对权力的民选机构。
The current Iranian protests — how aware are they of this heritage?
当前伊朗的抗议活动——他们对这一传统的认识程度如何？
Is there a direct link?
有直接链接吗？
Or it’s something from the distant past, like talking to Americans about an 18th-century Shays’ Rebellion or something?
或者是来自遥远过去的事情，比如与美国人谈论 18 世纪的谢斯叛乱之类的事情？
Iran has had three major revolutions of the 20th century: the Constitutional Revolution of 1906, the Nationalist Revolution in 1953, and of course, the revolution of 1979.
伊朗在20世纪经历了三场重大革命：1906年的立宪革命、1953年的民族主义革命，当然还有1979年的革命。
Those three moments are part of the history of the country.
这三个时刻是这个国家历史的一部分。
It’s what you learn in school.
这是你在学校学到的东西。
Now, of course, depending on the time, what you learn about it sometimes changes.
当然，随着时间的推移，你对它的了解有时会发生变化。
The heroes change.
英雄变了。
For instance, there was a time in which Howard Baskerville, who fought in the Constitutional Revolution, was taught in schools.
例如，曾经参加过立宪革命的霍华德·巴斯克维尔曾在学校任教。
There were schools named after Howard Baskerville, streets named after Howard Baskerville.
有些学校以霍华德·巴斯克维尔的名字命名，有些街道以霍华德·巴斯克维尔的名字命名。
He was part of the traditional teaching of 20th-century history for most Iranian schoolchildren, myself included when I was there, but not anymore.
对于大多数伊朗学童来说，他是 20 世纪历史传统教学的一部分，包括我当时在那里的时候，但现在不再了。
Really, since 1979, that part of 20th-century history has diminished to the point where it’s really hard to find anyone under the age of 50 in Iran who could tell you who Howard Baskerville was anymore.
确实，自 1979 年以来，20 世纪历史的这一部分已经消失到了这样的程度，在伊朗很难再找到 50 岁以下的人能告诉你霍华德·巴斯克维尔是谁了。
Even the Constitutional Revolution itself hasn’t been taught with the same rigor since the ’79 revolution as it used to be.
自79年革命以来，就连宪政革命本身也没有像以前那样严格地被教导。
Primarily, for a while, it was because these are people fighting against the shah.
主要是，有一段时间，这是因为这些人与国王作战。
I think post ’79, there was this idea that, hey look, in the same way that our ancestors fought against the shah, we are fighting against the shah, too.
我认为 79 年后，有这样的想法，嘿，看，就像我们的祖先与国王作战一样，我们也在与国王作战。
Over the years, the teaching of it has actually become a little bit less robust, primarily because it’s hard to argue that you’re following in the footsteps of a revolution, the purpose of which was to bring equal rights to each citizen, when you live in the current Islamic Republic.
多年来，它的教学实际上变得有点不那么有力了，主要是因为很难说你正在追随一场革命的脚步，革命的目的是当你生活在当前的伊斯兰共和国时，为每个公民带来平等的权利。
Why did the Constitutional Revolution fail?
立宪革命为何失败？
It didn’t fail.
它没有失败。
It actually ended up succeeding, and in 1909, the revolutionaries were able to remove the shah into exile.
它实际上最终成功了，1909 年，革命者成功地将国王驱逐出境。
The shah who was fighting against the constitution put his son on the throne instead.
反对宪法的国王反而让他的儿子登上了王位。
The constitution became part of law.
宪法成为法律的一部分。
An elected parliament began making laws, and for a very brief while, Iran was a constitutional monarchy.
民选议会开始制定法律，在很短的一段时间内，伊朗成为君主立宪制国家。
But that failed, right?
但那失败了，对吧？
Why did that end?
为什么就这样结束了？
It was a couple of factors.
这是有几个因素的。
First of all was the First World War.
首先是第一次世界大战。
The First World War broke out very soon afterwards, and Iran became the principal staging ground for Russian and British troops.
第一次世界大战很快爆发，伊朗成为俄罗斯和英国军队的主要集结地。
Russia occupied the entirety of the north, and Britain occupied the entirety of the south.
俄罗斯占领了整个北部，英国占领了整个南部。
The war was a devastation for humanity across the board, but in Iran, it led to famine and devastation.
战争对人类来说是一场全面的毁灭，但在伊朗，它导致了饥荒和破坏。
The Spanish flu killed nearly 20 percent of the population.
西班牙流感导致近 20% 的人口死亡。
The economy collapsed.
经济崩溃了。
By the time you get to 1921, you have a constitutional monarchy, but an absolutely unstable one.
到了 1921 年，君主立宪制已经实现，但绝对不稳定。
In 1921, a military commander by the name of Reza Khan, with the backing of the British Empire, declared a military coup.
1921年，一位名叫礼萨汗的军事指挥官在大英帝国的支持下宣布了军事政变。
He tore up the constitution, got rid of parliament, and then, really surprising everyone, declared himself the next shah, creating what we now know as the Pahlavi dynasty.
他撕毁了宪法，废除了议会，然后，令所有人惊讶的是，他宣布自己为下一任国王，创建了我们现在所知的巴列维王朝。
He became Reza Shah, and Iran went right back to absolute monarchy after a decade of a somewhat successful, but definitely unstable, constitutional monarchy.
他成为礼萨沙阿，伊朗在经历了十年成功但绝对不稳定的君主立宪制之后，又回到了绝对君主制。
Then, of course, the Pahlavi regime that Reza Shah created — ultimately, he gets thrown out at the run-up to the Second World War because he made some friendly overtures to Nazi Germany, and so the Allies removed him and put his son on the throne.
当然，礼萨沙创建的巴列维政权最终在第二次世界大战前夕被赶了出去，因为他向纳粹德国做出了一些友好的姿态，因此盟军将他赶下台，让他的儿子登上了王位。
That son, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, is the man who was overthrown in the 1979 revolution.
他的儿子穆罕默德·礼萨·巴列维 (Mohammad Reza Pahlavi) 在 1979 年革命中被推翻。
Many outsiders have the impression that Iran is very long human capital, very long cultural excellence, but never has done so well in terms of political outcomes, or not for a long time.
很多局外人的印象是，伊朗很长的人力资本，很长的文化优秀，但在政治成果方面从来没有做得这么好，或者说很长时间没有。
That’s a puzzle to them.
这对他们来说是一个谜。
How do you resolve that puzzle in your mind?
你如何解决心中的这个困惑？
You know, it’s a tragedy.
你知道，这是一场悲剧。
Sure, but why?
当然可以，但是为什么呢？
I’d say there are two factors, and we’ve touched upon them.
我想说有两个因素，我们已经谈到了它们。
The first factor is external interference.
第一个因素是外部干扰。
The Russian Empire brutally fought against the Constitutional Revolution.
俄罗斯帝国残酷地反抗立宪革命。
Despite the fact that the Constitutional Revolution did end up succeeding, the Russians nevertheless made sure that until the run-up to the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, the constitutional government would fail.
尽管立宪革命最终取得了成功，但俄罗斯人却确信，直到1917年布尔什维克革命之前，立宪政府都会失败。
I outline this in the book.
我在书中概述了这一点。
There’s the occupation of northern parts of Iran, the demand for concessions, et cetera, et cetera.
还有对伊朗北部地区的占领、要求让步等等。
Then in 1953, the Iranians rose up again and created a democratic country, very briefly, in the Nationalist Revolution with the prime minister, Mohammad Mosaddegh, and kicked the shah out of the country.
然后在 1953 年，伊朗人再次崛起，在民族主义革命中以穆罕默德·摩萨台为总理，非常短暂地创建了一个民主国家，并将国王赶出了该国。
I’m sure you remember what happened then.
我相信你还记得当时发生的事情。
The CIA showed up and put the shah back on the throne.
中央情报局出现并让国王重新登上王位。
The CIA has limited power, right?
中央情报局的权力有限，对吗？
We can’t rule Afghanistan.
我们无法统治阿富汗。
That was a disaster.
那是一场灾难。
It’s not that five people from Langley can parachute into Tehran and take control of the whole country —
并不是兰利的五个人可以空降到德黑兰并控制整个国家 ——
Oh, your listeners — if they are interested in this, please google Operation Ajax because it literally was five people from Langley, literally led by Kermit Roosevelt.
哦，你们的听众 —— 如果他们对此感兴趣，请谷歌“阿贾克斯行动”，因为它实际上是来自兰利的五个人，实际上是由克米特·罗斯福领导的。
And everyone just went along with this?
大家都同意了？
Ukraine didn’t go along with Russia coming in right now.
乌克兰现在并没有同意俄罗斯的加入。
This was, first of all, 1953.
首先，这是 1953 年。
Kermit Roosevelt and four others showed up in Tehran with a suitcase full of cash and, in a very, very brief amount of time, with the help of the allies that they had in Iran who wanted the shah back, created a fake counter-revolution that brought Mohammad Mosaddegh down and brought the shah back in power.
克米特·罗斯福和其他四人带着装满现金的手提箱出现在德黑兰，在非常非常短的时间内，在他们在伊朗希望国王回来的盟友的帮助下，制造了一场假反革命，推翻了穆罕默德·摩萨台，并让国王重新掌权。
It was the most extraordinary success.
这是最非凡的成功。
It actually gave birth to the CIA as we know it.
它实际上催生了我们所知的中央情报局。
Operation Ajax, if anybody is interested in that, it’s a crazy story.
阿贾克斯行动，如果有人对此感兴趣，那是一个疯狂的故事。
Then of course, in ’79, you had post-revolutionary chaos that was essentially hijacked by the clerics and Khomeini itself.
当然，在 79 年，革命后的混乱基本上是由神职人员和霍梅尼本身劫持的。
It’s a combination of things.
这是多种因素的结合。
It’s a combination of the internal structure and the conflicts in Iranian society, the inability to come together and unify under a common cause, and frankly, the interference of external forces.
这是伊朗社会内部结构和冲突、无法在共同目标下团结一致以及外部势力干扰的综合结果。
Those two things, I think, for the last 100 years, have spelled a situation in which here we are — women and children and men on the streets in Iran right now, clamoring for the exact same rights that they were clamoring for in 1906.
我认为，过去 100 年来，这两件事造成了这样一种局面：现在，伊朗街头的妇女、儿童和男人，大声疾呼要求获得与 1906 年完全相同的权利。
It’s like wow, here we are 116 years later, and Iranians are asking for the same thing, and they still don’t have it.
就像哇，116 年过去了，伊朗人也在要求同样的东西，但他们仍然没有得到。
As an Iranian, it’s absolutely heartbreaking.
作为伊朗人，这绝对令人心碎。
What’s your favorite Iranian movie?
你最喜欢的伊朗电影是什么？
There’s so much.
有这么多。
Okay, it’s —
好吧，是 ——
I would say A Separation, but I’m curious to hear your take.
我会说“分离”，但我很想听听你的看法。
Of course, A Separation is good.
当然，分离也好。
I was going back a little bit more.
我还想再回去一点。
I was thinking like Taste of Cherry or The Color of Paradise or —
我在想《樱桃的味道》或《天堂的色彩》或 ——
Those are very good, yes.
这些都非常好，是的。
Yes.
是的。
The White Balloon.
白色气球。
I love that one, yes.
我喜欢那个，是的。
Those are some of my favorite classic ones, but yes, A Separation is phenomenal.
这些是我最喜欢的一些经典作品，但是，是的，《一次分离》是惊人的。
Where’s the best Iranian food in Westwood, Los Angeles?
洛杉矶韦斯特伍德最好的伊朗美食在哪里？
Okay, I love this question because my answer is, it depends on what you want.
好吧，我喜欢这个问题，因为我的答案是，这取决于你想要什么。
Fesenjan.
费森扬。
That’s what I want.
这就是我想要的。
If you want fesenjan, then you probably go to Shamshiri or Sholeh.
如果你想要 fesenjan，那么你可能会去 Shamshiri 或 Sholeh。
If you want really great lamb, I would say maybe Javan.
如果你想要真正美味的羊肉，我会说也许是爪哇。
If you want great tahdig, maybe Darya.
如果你想要伟大的塔赫迪格，也许达莉亚。
See, this is the thing — when you’re talking about Tehrangeles, there are dozens of restaurants to choose from.
看，这就是事情 — 当您谈论 Tehrangeles 时，有数十家餐厅可供选择。
You get to decide which one, depending on what you’re in the mood for.
您可以根据自己的心情来决定选择哪一个。
COWEN: How much do you think one can still feel the influence of Zoroastrianism in contemporary Iran?
COWEN：您认为在当代伊朗，人们还能感受到多少琐罗亚斯德教的影响？
Or is that just done and gone?
还是刚刚完成就消失了？
No, I love that question.
不，我喜欢这个问题。
While it is true that Zoroastrianism, as a religion, is dying, and there’s every reason to think that, maybe a century from now, there probably won’t be any Zoroastrians left.
虽然琐罗亚斯德教作为一种宗教确实正在消亡，但我们有充分的理由认为，也许一个世纪后，可能不会再有任何琐罗亚斯德教徒了。
I think currently right now, if you’re talking about the entire globe, there are probably about 200,000 Zoroastrians left in the world, which is horrifying because this is one of the primal religions.
我认为目前，如果你谈论整个地球，世界上可能还剩下大约20万琐罗亚斯德教徒，这很可怕，因为这是原始宗教之一。
There would be no Christianity if it wasn’t for Zoroastrianism.
如果没有琐罗亚斯德教，就不会有基督教。
But Zoroastrianism is so deeply embedded in Persian culture that the vast majority of Iranians probably don’t even know that the things they’re doing are Zoroastrian.
但琐罗亚斯德教深深植根于波斯文化中，以至于绝大多数伊朗人可能甚至不知道他们所做的事情是琐罗亚斯德教的。
It’s like Americans, when you celebrate Christmas and you don’t realize that you’re doing these pagan Germanic rituals.
就像美国人一样，当你庆祝圣诞节时，你没有意识到你正在做这些异教的日耳曼仪式。
It’s the same thing — our New Year’s ceremonies, the various holidays that we have in Iran.
这是同样的事情——我们的新年仪式，我们在伊朗度过的各种假期。
Then, just the way the Iranian consciousness is still deeply affected almost at the gene level by Zoroastrianism.
那么，就像伊朗人的意识几乎在基因层面上仍然深受琐罗亚斯德教的影响一样。
How did Iranian Judaism turn out special and different?
伊朗犹太教为何变得特殊和与众不同？
People might be surprised to learn that even today, right now, the second-largest Jewish community in the Middle East is in Iran.
人们可能会惊讶地发现，即使在今天，中东第二大犹太社区仍在伊朗。
It’s not gigantic.
这并不巨大。
It’s probably about 25,000 Jews, but they have been there for centuries.
这里可能有大约 25,000 名犹太人，但他们已经在那里呆了几个世纪了。
I think there are some historians that say you can go all the way back to the Babylonian exile.
我认为有些历史学家说你可以一直追溯到巴比伦流亡时期。
And now we have to go back into ancient history, but for people who remember, at a certain point, the Babylonians destroyed Israel and scattered the Jews across the Near East.
现在我们必须回到古代历史，但对于那些记得的人来说，在某个时刻，巴比伦人摧毁了以色列并将犹太人驱散到近东各地。
Then, in the sixth century, Cyrus the Great, the first king of the Persian Empire, destroyed Babylon and sent the Jews back to their homeland with treasure in order to rebuild their temple.
然后，在六世纪，波斯帝国的第一位国王居鲁士大帝摧毁了巴比伦，并把犹太人带着财宝送回了家园，以重建他们的圣殿。
And so Judaism has always seen Cyrus — in fact, Cyrus is the only non-Jew in the Bible who was called Messiah — has always seen Cyrus in this elevated light, and many, many Jews stayed in the Persian Empire.
因此，犹太教总是以这种崇高的眼光来看待居鲁士——事实上，居鲁士是圣经中唯一被称为弥赛亚的非犹太人——总是以这种崇高的眼光看待居鲁士，而且有很多很多犹太人留在了波斯帝国。
The Jews in Iran will tell you, whether this is factually correct or not, that their presence in the land predates Islam, that they were there before there was any such thing as Islam.
伊朗的犹太人会告诉你，无论事实是否正确，他们在这片土地上的存在早于伊斯兰教，他们在伊斯兰教这样的事物出现之前就已经存在了。
They’re deeply rooted in the culture and tradition there, though, as I say, it is a small community now, and definitely a diminishing community.
他们深深植根于那里的文化和传统，不过，正如我所说，它现在是一个小社区，而且绝对是一个正在缩小的社区。
Are you optimistic about modern-day Iran?
您对现代伊朗持乐观态度吗？
I’m optimistic about the current — I would only call it a revolution — that’s happening right now.
我对当前正在发生的 持乐观态度——我只会称其为一场革命。
You can’t really call it an uprising anymore or demonstrations anymore.
你不能再称其为起义或示威了。
What we’re seeing right now is a revolution, and I’m optimistic for a couple of reasons.
我们现在看到的是一场革命，出于几个原因我感到乐观。
One, because of who is leading it, because it’s women-led and it’s youth-led and it’s Gen Z.
第一，因为谁在领导它，因为它是由女性领导的，也是由年轻人领导的，而且是 Z 世代。
And this is a generation that, unlike the millennial generation in Iran, has no tolerance for the usual answers — “Go back home.
与伊朗的千禧一代不同，这一代人无法容忍通常的答案“回家”。
You can wear jeans.
你可以穿牛仔裤。
Everything will be fine” — which is what the regime would say every time the youth rose up.
一切都会好起来的”——这是每次年轻人奋起时政权都会说的话。
This generation has had it.
这一代人已经拥有了。
What I think is remarkable is the way in which these protests have managed to bring in all these other sectors of Iranian society.
我认为值得注意的是这些抗议活动成功地吸引了伊朗社会的所有其他部门。
You’re seeing old people and young people, conservatives and progressives.
你会看到老年人和年轻人、保守派和进步派。
You’re seeing women dressed head to toe in chador, the traditional, conservative Islamic dress, chanting slogans against the government, standing next to young women in jeans and t-shirts and who are unveiled.
你会看到女性从头到脚穿着罩袍（一种传统的、保守的伊斯兰服装），高呼反对政府的口号，站在穿着牛仔裤和 T 恤、未戴面纱的年轻女性旁边。
Now we’re seeing strikes being called.
现在我们看到有人发起罢工。
The oil industry is going under strike.
石油工业正在遭受罢工。
The bazaar merchants are going under strike.
集市商人正在罢工。
This morning we saw protests break out in the city of Qom, which is the Vatican of Iran, the religious city of Iran.
今天早上我们看到库姆市爆发了抗议活动，库姆市是伊朗的梵蒂冈，是伊朗的宗教城市。
There were thousands of people on the streets, calling for an end to the regime.
数千人走上街头，呼吁结束该政权。
I don’t think we’ve seen anything quite like this since the revolution that I fled, and where it’ll go, it’s hard to say.
我认为自从我逃离革命以来我们还没有见过这样的事情，而且它会走向何方，很难说。
But it’s hard to imagine that this isn’t going to lead to some profound and perhaps fundamental change in Iran.
但很难想象这不会给伊朗带来一些深刻的、也许是根本性的变化。
But most popular revolutions, on their own, fail.
但大多数民众革命本身都会失败。
You need a subsegment of the elite to truly flip and take over and perform the final step.
你需要精英的一部分来真正翻转并接管并执行最后一步。
Do you see that in the cards for Iran?
您在伊朗的牌中看到了这一点吗？
The elite that you’re talking about —
你所说的精英 ——
The governing elite.
执政精英。
— yes, is different.
——是的，不一样。
The elite there is what I would refer to as the mid-level clerics, the seminary students, et cetera.
那里的精英是我所说的中级神职人员、神学院的学生等等。
Iran is a country under clerical rules, so the clerics are the political leaders, but that is a very new, and frankly, a heretical idea in Shi’a Islam.
伊朗是一个教士统治下的国家，因此教士是政治领袖，但这是什叶派伊斯兰教中一个非常新的、坦率地说是异端的想法。
There’s no history in 1400 years of Islamic and Shi’a thought about direct clerical rule.
伊斯兰教和什叶派 1400 年的历史中没有关于直接教权统治的思想。
That just doesn’t exist.
那根本不存在。
This was something that Khomeini thought up out of whole cloth.
这是霍梅尼凭空想出来的。
It’s a complete really new innovation.
这是一项全新的创新。
What people, I think, don’t understand is that it’s not a very popular theology in Shi’ism.
我认为人们不明白的是，这在什叶派中并不是一个非常流行的神学。
For the most part, the upper echelon of the clerical regime — those in power, those enjoying the benefits of power — they’re entrenched in that ideology.
在大多数情况下，神职人员政权的上层 ——那些掌权者，那些享受权力好处的人——他们根深蒂固地固守着这种意识形态。
But the younger clerics, the seminary students, the mid-level clerics, the soapbox preachers, the imams at your mosque — there is an enormous amount of frustration, and I would even say rejection of the theology behind clerical rule.
但年轻的神职人员、神学院的学生、中层神职人员、肥皂剧传教士、清真寺的伊玛目——存在巨大的挫败感，我什至会说拒绝神职人员统治背后的神学。
And the generals?
那么将军们呢？
The generals are like generals everywhere in the world: utterly pragmatic.
将军们就像世界各地的将军一样：非常务实。
They will pretend to be pious if that’s what is needed.
如果需要的话，他们会假装虔诚。
They will give up on piety if that’s what is needed.
如果需要的话，他们会放弃虔诚。
I’m really glad that you said that because I think most Iran watchers will tell you that the real power in Iran isn’t the ayatollahs.
我真的很高兴你这么说，因为我认为大多数伊朗观察家都会告诉你，伊朗的真正权力不是阿亚图拉。
It seems that way from the outside, but that’s not where the real power is.
从表面上看是这样，但真正的力量并不在于此。
The real power is the IRGC, the Revolutionary Guards who prop up that regime.
真正的权力是伊斯兰革命卫队，即支持该政权的革命卫队。
For better or worse, they can be the biggest influence in what happens next.
无论好坏，它们都可能对接下来发生的事情产生最大的影响。
It’s not impossible to think that the Revolutionary Guard, which craves stability above all else, would say at a certain point, “We agree with the protestors.
不难想象，渴望稳定高于一切的革命卫队会在某个时候说：“我们同意抗议者的观点。
It’s time for the clerics to go back to their mosques.
现在是神职人员返回清真寺的时候了。
In the name of stability, we’re going to declare martial law, and we’ll be in charge for a little while.”
以稳定的名义，我们将宣布戒严，我们将掌管一段时间。”
Suddenly Iran looks like Pakistan in the ’80s.
突然之间，伊朗看起来就像八十年代的巴基斯坦。
It looks a little bit like Egypt for a while, and you go from religious rule to military rule.
它看起来有点像埃及，从宗教统治转向军事统治。
That could happen.
那可能会发生。
I’m not saying that’s a good thing.
我并不是说这是一件好事。
I’m just saying it is not an unlikely scenario in Iran.
我只是说这在伊朗并不是不可能发生的情况。
To wrap up, the very last question.
总结一下，最后一个问题。
Your new book is just out, An American Martyr in Persia.
你的新书刚刚出版，《波斯的美国烈士》。
What will you do next?
接下来你会做什么？
I am moving on towards fiction now.
我现在正在转向小说。
What kind of novel or other form of fiction?
什么类型的小说或其他形式的小说？
I’ll tell you.
我告诉你。
There is a thousand-year-old Persian epic called the Shahnameh or The Book of Kings, and it’s essentially the Central Asian Iliad, Odyssey.
有一部有着千年历史的波斯史诗，叫做《列王纪》或《列王纪》，它本质上就是中亚的《伊利亚特》《奥德赛》。
It’s 100,000 rhyming couplets written by a poet named Ferdowsi more than a thousand years ago.
这是一千多年前一位名叫菲尔多西的诗人写的十万句押韵对句。
I would like to tackle that in some way, perhaps.
也许我想以某种方式解决这个问题。
You mean write a prose version, write an updated version in English?
你的意思是写一个散文版本，写一个英文更新版本？
I’m still dealing with it, but yes, possibly a novelization of it is what I’m dancing around right now.
我仍在处理它，但是是的，可能它的小说化就是我现在正在跳舞的内容。
Reza Aslan, thank you very much.
礼萨·阿斯兰，非常感谢你。
It was my pleasure.
这是我的荣幸。
Thanks for having me, Tyler.
谢谢你邀请我，泰勒。