Rebecca Kukla on Moving Through and Responding to the World (Ep. 57)

Her two main books are first, Mass Hysteria: Medicine, Culture, and Mothers’ Bodies, and second, ‘Yo!’ and ‘Lo!’: The Pragmatic Topography of the Space of Reasons, coauthored with Mark Lance.

她的两本主要著作是：第一本《大众歇斯底里：医学、文化和母亲的身体》，第二本是与马克·兰斯合着的《Yo!》和《Lo!》：理性空间的实用地形图。

She has a forthcoming book, City Living: How Urban Spaces and Urban Dwellers Make One Another, coming out from Oxford University Press.

她即将出版一本书《​​城市生活：城市空间和城市居民如何相互结合》，由牛津大学出版社出版。

And overall, her main areas of research expertise are social epistemology, philosophy of language, applied philosophy of science, bioethics, and feminist and anti-oppressive thought.

总体而言，她的主要研究领域是社会认识论、语言哲学、应用科学哲学、生物伦理学以及女权主义和反压迫思想。

Rebecca, welcome.

丽贝卡，欢迎。

I think that there’s massive — I don’t even want to call it a double bind because it’s a multidimensional bind — where if we sound too feminine, sounding feminine in this culture is coded as frivolous and unserious.

我认为存在巨大的“我什至不想称其为双重束缚，因为它是多维的束缚”，如果我们听起来太女性化，那么在这种文化中听起来女性化就会被视为轻浮和不严肃。

If we sound too unfeminine, then we sound like we are violating gender norms or like we are unpleasant or trying to be like a man.

如果我们听起来太不女性化，那么我们听起来就像我们违反了性别规范，或者我们不讨人喜欢，或者试图变得像个男人。

I think that almost any way in which we position ourselves — if we try to be polite and make nice, then we come off as weak.

我认为，无论我们以何种方式定位自己——如果我们试图表现得礼貌、友善，那么我们就会显得软弱。

If we don’t make nice, then we’re held to a higher standard for our appropriate behavior than men are.

如果我们不表现得友善，那么我们对自己的适当行为的标准就会比男性更高。

I think there’s almost no way we can position ourselves so that we sound as experts.

我认为我们几乎不可能给自己定位，让自己听起来像专家。

So oftentimes, the content of our words matters less than our embodied presentation as a woman.

很多时候，我们言语的内容比我们作为女性的具体表现更重要。

A lot of times, women will get advice to do things like not uptalk, where you end your comment with what sounds like a question.

很多时候，女性会得到一些建议，比如不要上头说话，用听起来像是问题的评论来结束你的评论。

That’s uptalking, and women do it more than men do.

这就是上扬，而且女性比男性更常这样做。

And we’re told that it sounds weak and open ended.

我们被告知这听起来很弱且开放。

Or we’re told not to talk in a high voice because high voices are coded as nonauthoritative and unserious.

或者我们被告知不要高声说话，因为高声调被认为是不权威和不严肃的。

And I sort of accepted all that advice until somebody pointed out to me one day that the prior question is, Why do we hear high as less serious than low?

我有点接受了所有这些建议，直到有一天有人向我指出，前面的问题是，为什么我们听到的高音比低音不那么严重？

Right?

正确的？

Before we even get to that point, why do high voices sound unserious to us?

在我们到达这一点之前，为什么高声对我们来说听起来不严肃？

And why does uptalking sound unserious to us?

为什么上头说话对我们来说听起来不严肃？

I think, at a very basic, basic level that even women don’t generally question, just everything that’s coded as feminine comes off as less authoritative.

我认为，在一个非常基本、基本的层面上，即使是女性通常也不会质疑，只是所有被编码为女性化的东西都会显得不那么权威。

And I really want to make sure to add on here or bring back in the point that plenty of women are not particularly feminine.

我真的想确保在这里补充一点，或者回顾一下，很多女性并不是特别女性化。

So it’s not like we can just avoid this by not coming off as feminine because if we don’t come off as feminine, then there are a whole other set of penalties that we’re subject to, that we come off as violating norms, or as hard to understand, or as — I don’t want to use a bad word on the air — but as meriting various gendered insults that get thrown our way a lot if we don’t uphold those norms.

因此，我们不能通过不表现得像女性化来避免这种情况，因为如果我们不表现得像女性化，那么我们就会受到一系列其他的惩罚，我们会被认为违反了规范，或者难以理解，或者“我不想在广播中使用脏话”，但如果我们不遵守这些规范，我们就会受到各种性别侮辱。

But in its early, relatively unsophisticated form, the idea was that women, just in virtue of belonging to the group women, had a particular perspective coming out of their set of experiences that was not substitutable by somebody who hadn’t had that set of experiences.

但在其早期相对简单的形式中，这种想法是，女性仅仅因为属于女性群体，就从她们的一系列经历中产生了一种特殊的观点，而这种观点是那些没有这种经历的人无法替代的。

So it was very important to include women’s voice qua women, so they could represent this perspective and this set of experiences.

因此，将女性的声音纳入女性的声音非常重要，这样她们就可以代表这种观点和这组经历。

I think that over the years, the idea that there is a thing — no matter how much you pare back — that there is a thing that is women’s common experiences or women’s common perspective has become increasingly debunked, including among feminists.

我认为，多年来，“有一种东西”——“无论你花多少钱”——“有一种东西是女性的共同经历或女性的共同观点”的想法已经被越来越多地揭穿，包括在女权主义者中。

Almost nobody would stand up for that anymore.

几乎没有人会再站出来支持这一点。

Everybody understands that every woman is different, and that women’s experiences are inflected by their race, class, body shape, ability level, age, region of the country — just innumerable details that are going to intersect with and shape their experience.

每个人都明白，每个女性都是不同的，女性的经历会受到她们的种族、阶级、体型、能力水平、年龄、国家地区的影响——无数的细节将与她们的经历相交叉并塑造她们的经历。

So there isn’t such a thing as the women’s perspective.

所以不存在女性视角这样的东西。

You might think that means that there’s never a point to saying, “Speaking as a woman, blah, blah, blah,” because you can never speak for women.

你可能认为这意味着说“作为一个女人说话，等等，等等”是没有意义的，因为你永远不能代表女性说话。

So why speak as a woman?

那么为什么要以女性的身份说话呢？

But I do think that there are times where a conversation is going on in a way that universalizes a male positioning.

但我确实认为，有时对话会以一种普遍化男性定位的方式进行。

And it helps to intrude into that conversation and say, “Look, there are other people in the room who don’t have the position that you are presuming.”

介入谈话并说：“看，房间里还有其他人，他们没有你所假设的职位。”这会有所帮助。

That doesn’t mean that we all have the same position as one another.

这并不意味着我们所有人都有相同的立场。

But it does mean that there’s a usefulness to reminding people rhetorically sometimes that what might seem like a universal position is not in fact a universal position.

但这确实意味着，有时以修辞方式提醒人们，看似普遍的立场实际上并非普遍的立场是有用的。

“Speaking as a woman” might just mean speaking as not the kind of man who all of you are right now presuming is the neutral case, or not even noticing that you’re taking as the neutral case.

“以女性的身份说话”可能只是意味着不像你们所有人现在认为是中立的那种男性来说话，或者甚至没有注意到你正在将其视为中立的情况。

When we say, “Is this the proper understanding of misogyny?” we always have to understand that as a kind of a normative or prescriptive project as much as a descriptive project.

当我们问：“这是对厌女症的正确理解吗？”我们始终必须将其理解为一种规范性或规范性项目以及描述性项目。

What we’re saying is, “Is this the most useful, productive way of understanding misogyny?” Understanding that there’s going to be lots of other things that people mean by it that don’t fall under this heading, and lots of other things that we could’ve called misogyny that aren’t going to fit, and so on.

我们想说的是，“这是理解厌女症最有用、最有成效的方式吗？”要明白人们所说的还有很多其他的东西不属于这个标题，还有很多其他我们可以称之为厌女症的东西并不适合，等等。

But is this a productive strategy?

但这是一个富有成效的策略吗？

And if that’s how I’m understanding the question, then I think, yes, I think it’s a very productive understanding of misogyny that’s going to go a long way towards making clear a lot of social phenomena.

如果这就是我理解这个问题的方式，那么我想，是的，我认为这是对厌女症的非常富有成效的理解，这将大大有助于澄清许多社会现象。

What I like most about it .

我最喜欢它的是什么。

.

。

.

。

I disagree with Kate Manne in some of the details, but what I really appreciate most about her account is that misogyny becomes about social structures and social norms rather than about particular men having particular icky ideas or intentions in their head.

我在一些细节上不同意凯特·曼尼的观点，但我最欣赏她的说法的是，厌女症变成了社会结构和社会规范，而不是特定的男人脑子里有特定的令人讨厌的想法或意图。

In general, I think trying to figure out what’s going on inside people’s heads, or what they’re feeling, or what they’re intending, is kind of morally uninteresting and epistemologically impossible.

总的来说，我认为试图弄清楚人们头脑中正在发生什么，或者他们的感受是什么，或者他们的意图是什么，在道德上是无趣的，在认识论上也是不可能的。

We never know what’s going on in people’s heads.

我们永远不知道人们脑子里在想什么。

In fact, the empirical evidence shows that we don’t know what’s going on in our own heads very well either.

事实上，经验证据表明我们也不太清楚自己脑子里在想什么。

You can prove that people don’t understand their own intentions or the contents of their own minds very well.

你可以证明人们不太了解自己的意图或自己的想法。

So I think understanding misogyny as hateful attitudes towards women, or ill intentions towards women, is a nonstarter.

因此，我认为将厌女症理解为对女性的仇恨态度或对女性的恶意是不可能的。

What I love about Professor Manne’s version is, what she wants to say is misogyny is a system of social norms that are embedded in our practices and in our environments, in our institutions that serve to punish women who step out of their proper gender roles and keep women in various ways in the primary role of serving men’s needs.

我喜欢曼恩教授的版本，她想说的是，厌女症是一种社会规范体系，它根植于我们的实践、我们的环境、我们的机构中​​，旨在惩罚那些走出自己正确性别角色的女性，并以各种方式让女性承担满足男性需求的主要角色。

And that part at that level of generality I think is extremely helpful.

我认为这部分的一般性非常有帮助。

One part of it is arguably just true, and not the part that I really pick on, which is that pregnant women are responsible with their bodies for creating the next generation of people, right?

其中一部分可以说是正确的，但不是我真正喜欢的部分，即孕妇对自己的身体负责创造下一代，对吧？

In some sense, the pregnant body has a kind of a civic responsibility, which is really distinctive.

从某种意义上说，怀孕的身体具有一种公民责任，这是非常独特的。

Out of that pregnant body is going to come a person who is going to belong to the next generation.

从怀孕的身体中将会诞生一个属于下一代的人。

And there’s been this long-standing idea that goes back several hundred years that the pregnant body creates the body politic, so we all have a collective investment in how that process goes.

几百年前就有这样一种长期存在的观念，即怀孕的身体创造了政治体，所以我们所有人都对这个过程的进行进行集体投资。

So far, so good.

到目前为止，一切都很好。

At the same time, though, pregnant women’s bodies have been seen as profoundly untrustworthy because women and women’s bodies have been seen as profoundly untrustworthy, right?

但与此同时，孕妇的身体被认为是非常不值得信任的，因为女性和女性的身体被认为是非常不值得信任的，对吗？

Women have been seen as easily swayed by hormones and emotions, as fragile, as easy to tempt into various kinds of bad behaviors, as not really understanding science very well, so as not knowing how to regulate their bodies, as being undisciplined, and so on.

女性被认为容易受荷尔蒙和情绪影响、脆弱、容易受各种不良行为的诱惑、不太了解科学、不懂得如何调节自己的身体、不守纪律等等。

So we’ve developed this kind of double idea that women’s bodies are super risky but also have this incredibly important task.

因此，我们提出了这种双重想法，即女性的身体面临着巨大的风险，但也承担着这项极其重要的任务。

As a result, we’ve developed all kinds of science and norms and advice based around this idea that women have to be hyperdisciplined and hypercontrolled at all times, particularly when they’re pregnant, or things will go terribly, terribly awry.

因此，我们围绕这一理念制定了各种科学、规范和建议，即女性必须始终保持高度纪律和高度控制，尤其是在怀孕期间，否则事情会变得非常非常糟糕。

We’ve developed this kind of double idea that women’s bodies are super risky but also have this incredibly important task.

我们已经形成了这种双重想法，即女性的身体面临着巨大的风险，但也承担着这项极其重要的任务。

As a result, we’ve developed all kinds of science and norms and advice based around this idea that women have to be hyperdisciplined and hypercontrolled at all times, particularly when they’re pregnant, or things will go terribly, terribly awry.

因此，我们围绕这一理念制定了各种科学、规范和建议，即女性必须始终保持高度纪律和高度控制，尤其是在怀孕期间，否则事情会变得非常非常糟糕。

This is my favorite example of this: If you go back a couple hundred years, there was this supposedly scientific concept of the maternal imagination.

这是我最喜欢的例子：如果你回到几百年前，就会发现关于母亲想象力的科学概念。

And the idea was that, if pregnant women saw things or felt things or encountered things during their pregnancy that got them all riled up, it would directly mark the body of the fetus.

这个想法是，如果孕妇在怀孕期间看到的东西、感觉到的东西、遇到的东西让自己兴奋不已，就会直接标记在胎儿的身体上。

If they really craved strawberries, their fetus would have a strawberry birthmark.

如果他们真的很想吃草莓，他们的胎儿就会有草莓胎记。

Or the most hilarious one is, if they found themselves accidentally lusting after a black man, their baby would turn out black.

或者最搞笑的是，如果他们发现自己不小心对一个黑人产生了欲望，他们的孩子就会变成黑人。

There was this idea that we had to completely control women’s environments and keep them in a nice, calm, low-stimulation environment throughout their pregnancy so that they didn’t destroy their fetus because they were so weak and prone to these things.

有一种想法是，我们必须完全控制女性的环境，让她们在整个怀孕期间保持在一个良好、平静、低刺激的环境中，这样她们就不会因为太虚弱、容易受到这些事情的影响而毁掉胎儿。

I think — even though very few people would claim that directly anymore — that mentality continues now.

我认为————尽管很少有人会直接宣称这一点————这种心态现在仍在继续。

There’s this idea that pregnant women can’t get too emotional or the stress will destroy their fetus.

有一种观点认为孕妇不能太情绪化，否则压力会毁掉胎儿。

Or they can’t eat too much or they’re going to turn their fetus into a future obese person.

或者他们不能吃太多，否则他们会把胎儿变成未来的肥胖者。

There’s a whole other conversation.

还有另外一段对话。

They’re supposed to regulate how much sex they have, when they have sex, what they eat, what they breathe, what they wear.

他们应该规范自己的性行为次数、性行为时间、吃什么、呼吸什么、穿什么。

There’s this wonderful quote in a famous pregnancy book that says, “With every single bite that you put in your mouth, you should be asking yourself: Does this bite help my baby?

一本著名的怀孕书籍中有这样一段精彩的话：“当你把每一口放进嘴里时，你都应该问自己：这一口对我的宝宝有帮助吗？

Or am I just doing it for my own selfish end?” There’s this idea that literally each time you put a piece of food in you, you’re supposed to be self-regulating.

还是说我这么做只是为了一己私利？”有一种观点认为，每次你往体内放入一块食物时，你都应该进行自我调节。

This has led to advice that’s not only unfollowable for women, but to get more directly back to your question, I think it leads people to see pregnant women as constantly involved in this high-risk project that requires intensive risk management.

这导致了不仅女性无法遵循的建议，而且更直接地回到你的问题，我认为这导致人们认为孕妇不断参与这个需要强化风险管理的高风险项目。

And this has led to all kinds of unfollowable advice and bad science.

这导致了各种不可遵循的建议和糟糕的科学。

You literally can’t do all the things that you’re supposed to do at the same time, so it leads to advice that is overdisciplinary and is punitive, but is also scientifically not grounded in the facts.

你实际上不可能同时做所有你应该做的事情，所以它会导致建议过于严格和惩罚性，但在科学上也没有事实依据。

It’s based in this mythology that women have this pure perfect being in them, but they’re likely to wreck that being at every moment.

基于这个神话，女性拥有这种纯粹完美的存在，但她们可能随时都会破坏这种存在。

And their job is to bring risk down to zero, despite their dangerous bodies.

尽管他们的身体很危险，但他们的工作是将风险降至零。

If you live in a developed country with decent medical care and a clean water supply, there’s not really any interesting evidence that breastfeeding benefits your baby, certainly not after the first few weeks, but maybe not even after the first few days.

如果您生活在一个拥有良好医疗保健和清洁水供应的发达国家，那么并没有任何有趣的证据表明母乳喂养对您的宝宝有益，当然在最初几周之后不会，但甚至在最初几天之后也可能不会。

There is pretty good evidence that those first few days of colostrum have a good immune effect, even on babies who are in otherwise privileged situations.

有充分的证据表明，初乳的最初几天具有良好的免疫效果，即使对于处于其他有利条件的婴儿也是如此。

I think that women who manage to get a few days of breast milk into their baby — if they live in a developed country — have done everything from the point of view of helping their baby that they need to do.

我认为，那些设法让婴儿吃几天母乳的女性——“如果她们生活在发达国家”——从帮助婴儿的角度来看，她们已经做了她们需要做的一切。

And after that, it should just be a matter of whatever works for their lifestyle.

在那之后，这应该只是适合他们生活方式的问题。

Of course, on the other hand, if you’re in a developing country with a poor water supply, and formula that you make based on the water is going to be dangerous, and formula is expensive, and so forth, then compromising your ability to breastfeed by bottle supplementation may, in fact, be a really bad choice because if you stop being able to breastfeed, you’re going to be stuck doing this much more expensive, riskier thing that you might not be in a financial or physical position to do safely.

当然，另一方面，如果你身处一个水资源匮乏的发展中国家，而你用水制作的配方奶会很危险，而且配方奶价格昂贵等等，那么通过奶瓶补充剂来损害你母乳喂养的能力实际上可能是一个非常糟糕的选择，因为如果你无法母乳喂养，你将被迫做这种更昂贵、风险更大的事情，而你可能没有经济或身体条件来安全地做这些事情。

So there are good reasons to encourage breastfeeding and to fight back against the marketing of formula in precarious, developing world countries, but really no reason here.

因此，我们有充分的理由鼓励母乳喂养并抵制在不稳定的发展中国家销售配方奶粉，但实际上没有理由。

As to why women here don’t breastfeed — when they don’t, it heavily tracks race.

至于为什么这里的女性不母乳喂养——当她们不母乳喂养时，这很大程度上与种族有关。

It heavily tracks class.

它严重追踪阶级。

To me, the most obvious overwhelming reason why women in the United States often don’t breastfeed is that we have six weeks of unpaid leave and no further maternity leave, so it’s literally physically hard to do.

对我来说，美国女性经常不进行母乳喂养的最明显的压倒性原因是我们有六周的无薪假期，而且没有进一步的产假，所以这在身体上确实很难做到。

We’re getting better but aren’t that great at giving women safe spaces to breastfeed.

我们正在进步，但在为女性提供安全的母乳喂养空间方面还不够。

It’s wonderful that there’s been a movement to let women breastfeed in public.

令人惊奇的是，有一场让女性在公共场合母乳喂养的运动。

But honestly, a lot of women don’t want to breastfeed in public because it’s stressful, and it’s awkward, and they don’t want to do that.

但老实说，很多女性不想在公共场合母乳喂养，因为压力很大，而且很尴尬，她们也不想这样做。

Giving women more spaces to do it, giving them more privacy, giving them more time off work would, I think, be the main things that would increase breastfeeding rates.

我认为，给女性更多的空间、更多的隐私、更多的休息时间是提高母乳喂养率的主要因素。

The really important point about breastfeeding in this American context is, every woman has already gotten the message over and over and over again that breastfeeding is better for their baby.

在美国环境下，母乳喂养真正重要的一点是，每个女性都已经一遍又一遍地得到这样的信息：母乳喂养对她们的宝宝更好。

They know that already, so trying to guilt them into it or give them that message over and over again is pointless and guilt inducing.

他们已经知道这一点，所以试图让他们感到内疚或一遍又一遍地向他们传达这样的信息是毫无意义的，而且会引发内疚。

If they’re not breastfeeding, it’s because there are other barriers that are making it hard for them to do.

如果他们不进行母乳喂养，那是因为还有其他障碍使他们难以母乳喂养。

The fact of the matter is, they’re harming their baby virtually zero by not breastfeeding.

事实是，不母乳喂养对宝宝的伤害几乎为零。

And in fact, if they breastfed a little at the beginning, they’re arguably harming their baby zero.

事实上，如果他们一开始就母乳喂养一点，可以说他们对宝宝的伤害为零。

Our approach should be the twin approach of supporting breastfeeding better, and then leaving women alone when they choose not to do it for whatever reason or can’t do it for whatever reason.

我们的方法应该是双管齐下，更好地支持母乳喂养，然后当女性因任何原因选择不母乳喂养或无法母乳喂养时，不要干涉她们。

On philosophy as a field

论哲学作为一个领域

Talking about the discipline as a whole, and not necessarily the parts of it that are changing, I think the most obviously boring thing is that philosophers have, for ages, not only have they not felt any pressure to deal with the real, messy, empirical world as they find it, and to take empirical data and empirical science into account, and to worry about what’s actually happening in messy reality, but on the contrary, it’s been prized to not get your hands dirty in that way.

谈论整个学科，而不一定是正在发生变化的部分，我认为最明显无聊的事情是，多年来，哲学家们不仅没有感受到任何压力来处理他们所发现的真实的、混乱的、经验的世界，考虑经验数据和经验科学，担心混乱的现实中实际发生的事情，而且相反，不以这种方式弄脏自己的双手是值得赞扬的。

The kind of philosophy that manages to maximally abstract away from anything recognizable as a messy, real-world, empirical situation has been the kind of philosophy that has been most lauded and received the most privilege in the field.

那种能够最大程度地从任何可被认为是混乱的、现实世界的、经验情境中抽象出来的哲学，一直是该领域最受赞誉并获得最多特权的哲学。

If you can find a way to talk about fundamental ethical questions or fundamental metaphysical questions in a way that translates it all into formal propositions and little toy thought experiments and never, ever gets its hands dirty with any of the complexities of everyday life, then traditionally you’re the one who’s doing philosophy in its purest form, the most a priori, the most formal, the cleanest kind of philosophy.

如果你能找到一种方法来谈论基本的伦理问题或基本的形而上学问题，将其全部转化为形式命题和小玩具思想实验，并且永远不会涉足日常生活中的任何复杂性，那么传统上你就是那个以最纯粹的形式、最先验、最正式、最干净的哲学研究哲学的人。

People who do that kind of philosophy congratulate themselves regularly about how clear they are.

奉行这种哲学的人经常庆幸自己的思路多么清晰。

In fact, I think, to anybody except one another, they’re not clear at all.

事实上，我想，对于除了彼此之外的任何人来说，他们都根本不清楚。

They’ve created this internal, jargonistic, abstract language, which is utterly impenetrable to anybody other than the few people who are using it, with tortured sentence structures.

他们创造了这种内在的、行话性的、抽象的语言，除了少数使用它的人之外，任何人都完全无法理解它，并且句子结构受到折磨。

Their self-congratulatory clarity is a kind of an ideological myth.

他们沾沾自喜的清白是一种意识形态神话。

If you can find a way to talk about fundamental ethical questions or fundamental metaphysical questions in a way that translates it all into formal propositions and little toy thought experiments and never, ever gets its hands dirty with any of the complexities of everyday life, then traditionally you’re the one who’s doing philosophy in its purest form, the most a priori, the most formal, the cleanest kind of philosophy.

如果你能找到一种方法来谈论基本的伦理问题或基本的形而上学问题，将其全部转化为形式命题和小玩具思想实验，并且永远不会涉足日常生活中的任何复杂性，那么传统上你就是那个以最纯粹的形式、最先验、最正式、最干净的哲学研究哲学的人。

People who do that kind of philosophy congratulate themselves regularly about how clear they are.

奉行这种哲学的人经常庆幸自己的思路多么清晰。

In fact, I think, to anybody except one another, they’re not clear at all.

事实上，我想，对于除了彼此之外的任何人来说，他们都根本不清楚。

They’ve created this internal, jargonistic, abstract language, which is utterly impenetrable to anybody other than the few people who are using it, with tortured sentence structures.

他们创造了这种内在的、行话性的、抽象的语言，除了少数使用它的人之外，任何人都完全无法理解它，并且句子结构受到折磨。

Their self-congratulatory clarity is a kind of an ideological myth.

他们沾沾自喜的清白是一种意识形态神话。

On the other hand, I think this is changing enormously.

另一方面，我认为这种情况正在发生巨大变化。

I think that all kinds of parts of philosophy are becoming more and more vibrant and attracting more and more people, where the whole point is to start with the world and what it is that we can say about the world, and how we can intervene on that world, and to let ourselves get our hands dirty, and to take the responsibility of reading science and reading social science, making sure that what we’re saying is responsive to empirical reality.

我认为哲学的各个部分正变得越来越有活力，吸引着越来越多的人，重点是从世界开始，我们对这个世界能说什么，我们如何干预这个世界，让我们自己动手，承担起阅读科学和社会科学的责任，确保我们所说的符合经验现实。

To me, philosophy’s getting a lot less boring, as long as I stick to my friends.

对我来说，只要我坚持和朋友们在一起，哲学就会变得不再那么无聊。

However, to take your question more seriously, yes.

但是，更认真地对待你的问题，是的。

Let me try to give you a more serious philosophy answer.

让我尝试给你一个更严肃的哲学答案。

One of my main interests, and one of my longest-standing research programs, as you hinted, is in speech act theory — in thinking about language not in terms of what particular words mean, not in terms of their semantics, but instead, thinking about what philosophers call the pragmatics of language, namely, what do particular acts of speaking actually do?

正如您所暗示的，我的主要兴趣之一，也是我持续时间最长的研究项目之一，是言语行为理论——不是根据特定单词的含义或语义来思考语言，而是思考哲学家所说的语言语用学，即特定的说话行为实际上是做什么的？

How are they interventions on the world?

他们如何干预世界？

Simple examples of speech act theory is that assertions and imperatives do different things.

言语行为理论的简单例子是断言和命令做不同的事情。

If I assert something to you, I’ve now tried to transmit a piece of information.

如果我向你断言某事，我现在就试图传递一条信息。

But if I issue an imperative, I’ve now tried to transmit to you an obligation.

但如果我发出命令，我现在就试图向你传达一项义务。

I’m trying to make you do something, which is just a different act.

我试图让你做某事，这只是一种不同的行为。

Or if I warn you, that’s a different kind of act again.

或者，如果我警告你，这又是一种不同的行为。

If I name you, that’s a completely different kind of act.

如果我说出你的名字，那是一种完全不同的行为。

I think that cursing and profanity is a whole domain of speech acts that has all kinds of interesting and subtle social effects that just can’t be substituted for by non–curse words.

我认为咒骂和脏话是言语行为的一个整体领域，它具有各种有趣且微妙的社会影响，这是非咒骂词语无法替代的。

You can take the curse words out, but then you have lessened the performative and pragmatic power of our language.

你可以把脏话去掉，但这样你就削弱了我们语言的表现力和实用力。

Different curse words, used in different ways, have really different kinds of effects.

不同的咒语，以不同的方式使用，会产生不同的效果。

Those effects can be anything.

这些效果可以是任何东西。

Any kind of speech act can be misused or used well.

任何一种言语行为都可能被误用或被善用。

So yes, profanity can be used to harm or to pointlessly offend or to lessen a conversation.

所以，是的，脏话可以用来伤害或毫无意义地冒犯或减少对话。

But it can also be used strategically to carry out all kinds of social functions and shifts in social space that we just can’t substitute with other words, even if those words have the same meaning.

但它也可以战略性地用于执行各种社会功能和社会空间的转变，这是我们无法用其他词代替的，即使这些词具有相同的含义。

Because even if they have the same meaning, their pragmatic force isn’t the same.

因为即使它们的含义相同，但它们的实用力并不相同。

Profanity can be used to harm or to pointlessly offend or to lessen a conversation.

脏话可以用来伤害或毫无意义地冒犯或减少对话。

But it can also be used strategically to carry out all kinds of social functions and shifts in social space that we just can’t substitute with other words, even if those words have the same meaning.

但它也可以战略性地用于执行各种社会功能和社会空间的转变，而这些功能是我们无法用其他词语替代的，即使这些词语具有相同的含义。

To me, cursing is a rich toolbox.

对我来说，咒骂是一个丰富的工具箱。

I try, with dubious success, not to overuse it.

我尝试不过度使用它，但是否成功。

But it’s a toolbox that I’m not willing to give up.

但这是我不愿意放弃的工具箱。

I think that more and more philosophers would probably agree with that.

我认为越来越多的哲学家可能会同意这一点。

There’s more and more work on profanity, taking it as a serious philosophical topic, which I’m excited to see.

关于脏话的研究越来越多，将其视为一个严肃的哲学话题，我很高兴看到这一点。

Philosophy is a dramatically less gender-balanced field than any of the other social sciences or humanities, and then most of the STEM fields.

与其他社会科学或人文学科以及大多数 STEM 领域相比，哲学是一个性别不平衡的领域。

The numbers in philosophy are pretty dire.

哲学领域的数字相当可怕。

But what’s most interesting about them is that, as feminist philosophy has been on the rise, and as consciousness about gender issues in the academy has been on the rise, our numbers haven’t changed all that much, if you go back and look, like, 30 years, or 50 years even.

但最有趣的是，随着女权主义哲学的兴起，随着学院对性别问题的意识不断增强，如果你回顾过去 30 年，甚至 50 年，我们的数字并没有发生太大变化。

The percentage of women who make full professor, for instance, is not that different than it’s ever been.

例如，成为正教授的女性比例与以往没有太大不同。

There are more female graduate students now, but how that translates into changing the discipline is unclear.

现在有更多的女研究生，但这如何转化为学科的改变尚不清楚。

I think part of it is just the very boring fact that it’s a male-dominated field, and male-dominated fields are likely to have more sexual harassment, it seems to me, because there’s more of that male culture that’s unchecked.

我认为部分原因是一个非常无聊的事实，即这是一个男性主导的领域，在我看来，男性主导的领域可能会出现更多的性骚扰，因为有更多的男性文化不受控制。

I want to say publicly that not all departments are like this, and my department at Georgetown is very much not like this.

我想公开地说，并不是所有的院系都是这样，我在乔治城的院系也非常不是这样。

I don’t want this to be heard as about my department.

我不想让别人听到关于我部门的事情。

But I do think, in many departments in philosophy, there’s a kind of a guru culture that goes on, where there are people at the top of the field, the big stars of the department, who are usually male, statistically — for the reasons I said — who have more power than they even understand that they have.

但我确实认为，在哲学的许多系中，存在着一种大师文化，那里有处于该领域顶端的人，系里的大明星，他们通常是男性，从统计上看——“出于我所说的原因”——他们拥有比他们自己想象的更多的权力。

Everybody feels a very deep need to please them and do what they say and so on.

每个人都强烈地需要取悦他们并按照他们所说的去做等等。

So the whole power setup is just ripe for exploitation.

因此，整个电源设置的开发时机已经成熟。

There was just a case that I’m sure you heard about, that was not in philosophy — despite the fact that it keeps being reported as if it was in philosophy — where it was a woman who had that star status, Avital Ronell.

我相信你听说过一个案例，它不是哲学中的——尽管事实上它一直被报道为哲学中的案例——其中有一位具有明星地位的女性，阿维塔尔·罗内尔。

She was the one who was grotesquely harassing her students and using her status as the kind of guru star of the department to do it.

她是那个怪诞地骚扰她的学生并利用她作为系里的大师明星的身份来做到这一点的人。

I don’t even think that it’s just men who exploit that position.

我什至不认为只有男人才能利用这个职位。

But I do think that in philosophy, it’s mostly men who are in a position to do that, to start with.

但我确实认为，在哲学中，首先有能力做到这一点的主要是男性。

Ultimately, I don’t have a really deep explanation for why we have so many scandals, but it is depressing.

最后，对于为什么我们有这么多丑闻，我没有一个真正深入的解释，但这令人沮丧。

I’ve found out, again and again, that even departments that I thought were functional, when you really start talking to people — and especially when you really start talking to graduate students who are not men — you find out more and more depressing stories about just how willing people are to exploit their positions in the department.

我一次又一次地发现，即使是我认为正常运作的部门，当你真正开始与人交谈时——尤其是当你真正开始与非男性研究生交谈时，你会发现越来越多令人沮丧的故事，说明人们多么愿意利用自己在部门中的职位。

In departments that have graduate students, it’s just a weird relationship already, right?

在有研究生的院系里，这种关系已经很奇怪了，对吧？

It’s an adult supervising another adult.

这是一个成年人监督另一个成年人。

The second adult tends to be younger, but they’re an adult.

第二个成年人往往更年轻，但他们是成年人。

The graduate students who are around for years — they’re in these intense working relationships with the professors.

研究生已经存在多年了——他们与教授保持着密切的工作关系。

It’s easy, if you’re a professor, to feel like that relationship is a socially equal one because you’re just hanging out with another adult who’s interested in your field, whereas the graduate student is hyperaware of the fact that you can make or break their lives and that it’s not an equal relationship.

如果你是一名教授，你很容易觉得这种关系是一种社会平等的关系，因为你只是和另一个对你的领域感兴趣的成年人一起出去玩，而研究生则非常清楚你可以成就或毁掉他们的生活，这不是一种平等的关系。

A lot of those power differentials get hidden from the person wielding the power.

许多权力差异对于掌握权力的人来说是隐藏的。

I just think it’s an extremely easy position to exploit.

我只是认为这是一个非常容易利用的位置。

We’ve got thousands of years of this idea of the wise old professor being this erotic figure that gets pulled into all of these dynamics.

数千年来，我们一直认为这位睿智的老教授是一个色情人物，被卷入所有这些动态之中。

But it’s been a really toxic, difficult time over the last, I don’t know, 10 years in philosophy.

但我不知道，在过去的十年里，哲学界确实经历了一段有毒、艰难的时期。

I hope it’s getting better from all of this.

我希望这一切能够让一切变得更好。

In departments that have graduate students, it’s just a weird relationship already, right?

在有研究生的院系里，这种关系已经很奇怪了，对吧？

It’s an adult supervising another adult.

这是一个成年人监督另一个成年人。

The second adult tends to be younger, but they’re an adult.

第二个成年人往往更年轻，但他们是成年人。

The graduate students who are around for years — they’re in these intense working relationships with the professors.

研究生已经存在多年了——他们与教授保持着密切的工作关系。

It’s easy, if you’re a professor, to feel like that relationship is a socially equal one because you’re just hanging out with another adult who’s interested in your field, whereas the graduate student is hyperaware of the fact that you can make or break their lives and that it’s not an equal relationship.

如果你是一名教授，你很容易觉得这种关系是一种社会平等的关系，因为你只是和另一个对你的领域感兴趣的成年人一起出去玩，而研究生则非常清楚你可以成就或毁掉他们的生活，这不是一种平等的关系。

A lot of those power differentials get hidden from the person wielding the power.

许多权力差异对于掌握权力的人来说是隐藏的。

On various thinkers and philosophers

关于各种思想家和哲学家

I think Hegel’s fascinating.

我认为黑格尔很迷人。

I think the main idea in Hegel that is fascinating is that any cultural moment, or set of ideas, or set of practices is always internally contradictory in ways it doesn’t notice, that there are tensions built into it.

我认为黑格尔令人着迷的主要思想是，任何文化时刻、一套观念或一套实践总是以它没有注意到的方式存在内在矛盾，其中存在着内在的张力。

What happens, over time, is that those tensions bubble up to the surface, and in the course of trying to resolve themselves, they create something newer and better and smarter that incorporates both of the original sides.

随着时间的推移，这些紧张局势会浮出表面，在试图自行解决的过程中，它们会创造出更新、更好、更聪明的东西，将原来的双方融合在一起。

That was a much more Hegelian way of putting it than I wanted it to come out, basically — the idea that going out and looking for consistency in the world is hopeless.

这是一种比我想要的更为黑格尔式的表达方式，基本上是“走出去寻找世界的一致性是没有希望的”。

Instead, what we should do is figure out how the contradictions in the world are themselves productive, and push history forward, and push ideas forward, is what I take to be the key interesting Hegelian idea.

相反，我们应该做的是弄清楚世界上的矛盾本身是如何产生生产力的，并推动历史前进，推动思想前进，这就是我认为黑格尔最有趣的关键思想。

Power isn’t about a big set of rules that’s imposed on people.

权力并不是强加给人们的一大套规则。

Power is about all of the little things that we do with one another as we move through the world.

力量是指我们在这个世界上行走时彼此所做的所有小事。

All of those add up to structures of power, rather than being imposed top-down.

所有这些加起来构成了权力结构，而不是自上而下强加的。

I think that has been, at least for me and for many other people, an incredibly fertile, productive way of starting to think about social phenomenon.

我认为，至少对我和其他许多人来说，这是一种开始思考社会现象的极其丰富、富有成效的方式。

The other bit of the Foucauldian picture that I think is incredibly important is the idea that a lot of this happens at the level of concrete, fleshy bodies and material spaces.

我认为福柯图景中极其重要的另一点是，很多事情都发生在具体的、肉质的身体和物质空间的层面上。

Power isn’t sets of abstract rules.

权力不是一组抽象规则。

Power is the way that we are trained up when we are little kids — to hold our legs in a certain way, or to hold our face in a certain way, or to wear certain kinds of clothing.

力量是我们小时候接受的训练方式——以某种方式握住我们的腿，或者以某种方式握住我们的脸，或者穿某种衣服。

Power is the way that schools are built with desks in rows that enforces a certain direction of the gaze, and so on.

权力是学校的建造方式，课桌排成一排，强制视线的某个方向，等等。

I could go on and on, but the way that the materiality of our bodies and our habits and our environments is where power gets a hold, and where our social patterns and norms are grounded, rather than in some kinds of high-level principles or laws, is also, I think, very fertile.

我可以继续说下去，但我认为，我们的身体、我们的习惯和我们的环境的物质性是权力得以掌握的地方，也是我们社会模式和规范的基础，而不是某些高级原则或法律的基础，这也是非常丰富的。

That’s independent of the details of his genealogical stories.

这与他的家谱故事的细节无关。

Because, yeah, he does seem to have played fairly fast and loose with actual historical details in a lot of cases.

因为，是的，在很多情况下，他似乎确实对实际的历史细节表现得相当快速和宽松。

We always knew Heidegger was a Nazi.

我们一直都知道海德格尔是纳粹分子。

Philosophers, for many years, had this line, which was that, “Oh, yeah, politically he was a Nazi because everybody was.

多年来，哲学家们一直有这样一句话，那就是，“哦，是的，从政治上来说，他是纳粹分子，因为每个人都是。

But it has nothing to do with his philosophy.” I think that was just willful obtuseness on the part of people who wanted to read him and take him seriously.

但这与他的哲学无关。”我认为这只是那些想要阅读他并认真对待他的人故意迟钝的表现。

I think that more and more has come out, showing just how deeply held his Nazi convictions were, and that it was not just him going along with the crowd.

我认为越来越多的事情已经浮出水面，表明他对纳粹的信念是多么坚定，而且不仅仅是他随波逐流。

It was stuff that he deeply believed.

这是他深信不疑的事情。

In a lot of books that don’t get read as much, he explains in detail the ways in which Nazism shaped his ideas.

在许多读得不多的书中，他详细解释了纳粹主义如何塑造他的思想。

I think now that we have entered an era in which there are real, live Nazis crawling out of the woodwork and having a serious voice in public discourse, my intellectual labor is finite, and I’ve just decided I’m not willing to spend any more of it on a Nazi.

我认为现在我们已经进入了一个时代，在这个时代里，有真正的、活生生的纳粹分子从木头里爬出来，在公共话语中发出严肃的声音，我的智力劳动是有限的，我刚刚决定不再把它花在纳粹身上。

That said, back in the day, I took Heidegger really seriously, and I found him a really important thinker.

也就是说，当时我非常认真地对待海德格尔，我发现他是一位非常重要的思想家。

I’m trying to think of what the acute little nugget of take-home summary of Being and Time might be.

我正在尝试思考《存在与时间》的带回家的尖锐小总结可能是什么。

If what you’re trying to do is physics, then you’re going to break the world into the kind of objects that are useful for doing physics, independent objects that have the properties that physics needs them to have.

如果你想做的是物理学，那么你就会把世界分解成对物理学有用的对象，独立的对象，这些对象具有物理学需要它们具有的属性。

If what you’re trying to do is — to use a very Heideggerian example — build a chair, then you’re not going to break the world into the objects of physics.

如果你想做的是 —— 用一个非常海德格尔式的例子 —— 建造一把椅子，那么你就不会把世界分解成物理对象。

You’re going to break the world into the tools that would be useful for you to build a chair.

你将把世界分解成对你建造一把椅子有用的工具。

You’re going to think of the world in terms of things like hammers and saws and nails.

你会用锤子、锯子和钉子之类的东西来思考世界。

You’re not going to care that much what the physical structure of the hammer is.

你不会太关心锤子的物理结构是什么。

What you’re going to care about is that the hammer is a good thing to use for making a chair at this moment, for banging in a nail.

你要关心的是，此时锤子是用来制作椅子、敲钉子的好东西。

Thinking of things in terms of their tool-like functions versus thinking of them as physical objects.

从事物的类似工具功能的角度来思考事物，而不是将它们视为物理对象。

It’s not like one is more right, or one is more wrong.

并不是说一个人更正确，或者一个人更错误。

It’s also not some sort of spooky subjectivism.

这也不是某种令人毛骨悚然的主观主义。

It’s just recognizing that our useful ontological categories are indexed to what we’re in the midst of trying to do.

只是认识到我们有用的本体论类别与我们正在尝试做的事情建立了索引。

Furthermore, thinking of other people is yet another category.

此外，为他人着想也是另一类。

So it’s not most useful to think of other people as physical objects or as tools.

因此，将其他人视为物理对象或工具并不是最有用的。

It’s most useful to think of other people as entities who are engaged in certain kinds of projects and self-reflections and so on.

将其他人视为从事某些类型的项目和自我反思等的实体是最有用的。

That’s a whole separate ontology, where it’s not really an interesting question to think about how that does or doesn’t reduce to a physicalist ontology or some other kind of ontology.

这是一个完全独立的本体论，思考它如何或不简化为物理主义本体论或其他类型的本体论并不是一个有趣的问题。

Was that at all comprehensible?

这是可以理解的吗？

He wrote dialogues.

他写对话。

He wrote traditional philosophy works.

他写了传统哲学著作。

He wrote books composed entirely of letters — epistolary novels.

他写的书完全由书信组成——书信体小说。

He wrote operas.

他写歌剧。

He wrote autobiographies.

他写自传。

He wrote in pretty much every genre.

他几乎涵盖了所有类型的作品。

Each of those genres is designed to make certain kinds of philosophical points possible.

这些流派中的每一种都旨在使某些类型的哲学观点成为可能。

They’re not separate from the content of what he has to say.

它们与他所说的内容是分不开的。

Reveries of a Solitary Walker — there’s more to say about it than I’m going to be able to say here.

《孤独行者的遐想》——关于它，我想说的还有很多。

But the most notable thing about it is that it’s a special kind of autobiographical book that I don’t think anybody had written before, where he’s autobiographising, as it were, as he moves through space, as he walks.

但最值得注意的是，这是一本特殊的自传体书，我认为以前没有人写过，可以说，他在空间中移动、行走时进行自传。

He’s reflecting on how his own relationship to what’s around him, and his own movement through space, shapes who he understands himself as being, what he can see, what he can’t see.

他正在反思自己与周围事物的关系，以及自己在空间中的运动，如何塑造了他对自己的理解，他能看到什么，他看不到什么。

I think that this idea — that place and location and movement have a constitutive impact on what we can think, what we can see, how we can philosophize — is an incredibly deep and moving insight.

我认为这个想法——“地方、地点和运动对我们能思考什么、我们能看到什么、我们如何进行哲学思考有本质性的影响”——是一个令人难以置信的深刻和感人的见解。

Just to see why this is important, compare it to somebody like Descartes, who starts his meditations famously by saying, “I want to do good philosophy, so what I’m going to do is, I’m going to lock myself in the room, and I’m going to close the windows, and I’m not going to move.

为了明白为什么这很重要，可以将其与像笛卡尔这样的人进行比较，笛卡尔在开始冥想时说：“我想做好的哲学，所以我要做的就是，我把自己锁在房间里，关上窗户，一动也不动。

I’m going to make sure I can’t see anybody else who’s going to distract me, and that I can’t hear anything.

我要确保我看不到任何会分散我注意力的人，也听不到任何声音。

Because I just want a completely blank, solitary environment so I can think clearly.”

因为我只是想要一个完全空白、孤独的环境，这样我才能清晰地思考。”

That’s a very specific kind of location.

这是一个非常特殊的位置。

There’s all kinds of fascinating assumptions built into the idea that you do your best thinking when you’re sitting still in a blank room, not talking to anybody else.

当你安静地坐在一间空荡荡的房间里，不与任何人交谈时，你会尽自己最大的努力思考，这一想法中包含了各种令人着迷的假设。

I think, for hundreds of years, most philosophers never even thought to question the basic shape of Descartes’ idea there — that, basically, philosophy was a thing you did when you weren’t distracted by the world or other people, and everything was staying the same so that you could just have your abstract thoughts.

我认为，数百年来，大多数哲学家甚至从未想过质疑笛卡尔思想的基本形态——基本上，哲学是当你不受世界或其他人干扰时所做的事情，一切都保持不变，以便你可以拥有抽象的思想。

There’s all kinds of fascinating assumptions built into the idea that you do your best thinking when you’re sitting still in a blank room, not talking to anybody else.

当你安静地坐在一间空荡荡的房间里，不与任何人交谈时，你会尽自己最大的努力思考，这一想法中包含了各种令人着迷的假设。

Most philosophers never even thought to question the basic shape of Descartes’ idea there — that, basically, philosophy was a thing you did when you weren’t distracted by the world or other people, and everything was staying the same so that you could just have your abstract thoughts.

大多数哲学家甚至从未想过质疑笛卡尔思想的基本形式——基本上，哲学是当你不被世界或其他人分心时所做的事情，一切都保持不变，这样你就可以拥有抽象的思想。

Rousseau comes along and very intentionally and explicitly inverts Descartes and says, “I can only do philosophy when I’m moving through the world and noticing things, like my feet hurt when I go up this hill.

卢梭出现了，非常有意且明确地颠倒了笛卡尔，他说：“我只有在走遍世界并注意到事物时才能研究哲学，就像我上这座山时脚受伤一样。

And that guy over there won’t talk to me because he thinks I’m weird.

那边那个人不会跟我说话，因为他认为我很奇怪。

What’s that about?” This kind of responsiveness to the world around him, and to the other people around him, and to his motion as he travels, is integral to the philosophy he can do.

那是什么事？”这种对他周围的世界、他周围的人以及他旅行时的动作的反应是他的哲学不可或缺的一部分。

It’s a much deeper inversion of the Cartesian solitary model of thinking than people notice.

这是笛卡尔孤独思维模型的一种比人们注意到的更深层次的反转。

I think that’s a great question.

我认为这是一个很好的问题。

I never really thought of it that way until you asked me the question.

在你问我这个问题之前我从来没有真正这么想过。

But I do go out of my way to change up the environment and the motion, depending on what kind of conversation I think it’s useful for us to have.

但我确实会不遗余力地改变环境和动作，这取决于我认为哪种对话对我们有用。

In particular, I find that what I have to talk about, philosophically, with my graduate students, other people, is dependent on what city I’m in, too.

特别是，我发现我必须与我的研究生和其他人谈论的哲学内容也取决于我所在的城市。

Just dependent on the entire physical environment around me and what kind of stimuli I’m experiencing.

仅取决于我周围的整个物理环境以及我正在经历什么样的刺激。

On boxing

关于拳击

I have a new colleague this year at Georgetown, Femi Taiwo.

今年我在乔治敦大学迎来了一位新同事，费米·泰沃 (Femi Taiwo)。

He just finished his PhD at UCLA.

他刚刚在加州大学洛杉矶分校完成博士学位。

Fantastic young philosopher.

了不起的年轻哲学家。

He gave an interview recently, and one thing he said really stuck out for me, which was that so many philosophers think that philosophy is about responding to other texts and other people, and they forget that it’s, first and foremost, about responding to the world.

他最近接受了一次采访，他说的一件事让我印象深刻，那就是很多哲学家认为哲学是对其他文本和其他人的回应，而他们忘记了哲学首先是对世界的回应。

And I think that if you just do philosophy, you literally don’t have material.

我认为如果你只研究哲学，你实际上没有材料。

You can read other people’s philosophy books and respond to them, but you don’t have any actual, rich, juicy material.

你可以阅读别人的哲学书籍并做出回应，但你没有任何实际的、丰富的、有趣的材料。

So, for me, having a lot of other things in my life other than philosophy has always been where I’ve got .

所以，对我来说，除了哲学之外，我的生活中还有很多其他的东西一直是我所拥有的。

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。

.

。

Imagine if you were a stand-up comic, and all you did is sit there and try to write comedy all day long.

想象一下，如果你是一名单口喜剧演员，你所做的就是整天坐在那里尝试写喜剧。

You wouldn’t have any material.

你不会有任何材料。

I don’t actually think it’s very different.

我实际上并不认为这有什么不同。

Philosophers and comedians have almost the same job, which is to come up with sharp, penetrating, quirky insights about the world, so you need to be out there in the world.

哲学家和喜剧演员几乎有相同的工作，那就是对世界提出敏锐、深刻、古怪的见解，所以你需要走出去。

Imagine if you were a stand-up comic, and all you did is sit there and try to write comedy all day long.

想象一下，如果你是一名单口喜剧演员，你所做的就是整天坐在那里尝试写喜剧。

You wouldn’t have any material.

你不会有任何材料。

I don’t actually think it’s very different.

我实际上并不认为这有什么不同。

Philosophers and comedians have almost the same job, which is to come up with sharp, penetrating, quirky insights about the world, so you need to be out there in the world.

哲学家和喜剧演员几乎有相同的工作，那就是对世界提出敏锐、深刻、古怪的见解，所以你需要走出去。

So I’ve always had a lot of things that I’ve done, other than philosophy, that have mattered to me intrinsically for their own sake, but also instrumentally.

所以，除了哲学之外，我一直在做很多事情，这些事情本身对我来说很重要，但也具有工具性。

I think they’ve made my philosophy better.

我认为他们让我的哲学变得更好。

Boxing falls under that general category.

拳击属于这个一般类别。

The other thing is, though, I don’t regulate my emotions very well unless I can exhaust myself, honestly.

但另一件事是，我不能很好地调节自己的情绪，除非我能把自己耗尽，说实话。

And I just write better and work better and think better, and I’m a calmer and more level-headed and smarter person, if I have managed to get out my rather large amount of energy and aggression.

如果我能够摆脱大量的精力和攻击性，我就会写得更好，工作得更好，思考得更好，而且我会成为一个更冷静、更冷静、更聪明的人。

So it’s extremely helpful for me to exhaust myself in the ring many times a week in order to do the rest of what I’m supposed to do.

因此，每周多次在拳击场上让自己筋疲力尽，以便完成我应该做的其余事情，对我来说非常有帮助。

On geography and travel

关于地理和旅行

It seemed to me that there was this turn going on in philosophy that has been going on since I was a graduate student and kind of started in the ’90s, where philosophers got really interested in embodiment.

在我看来，自从我还是一名研究生以来，哲学领域就一直在发生这种转变，这种转变从 20 世纪 90 年代开始，当时哲学家对具身化非常感兴趣。

They suddenly remembered that we have bodies, so they started doing all this work, thinking about the role that being embodied plays in what it is to be a person, to be a thinker, how we think, what we perceive, and so on.

他们突然想起我们有身体，所以他们开始做所有这些工作，思考体现在作为一个人、作为一个思想家、我们如何思考、我们感知什么等方面所扮演的角色。

But those bodies were always still oddly displaced bodies.

但那些尸体始终都是奇怪地移位的尸体。

They were bodies that weren’t anywhere in particular.

他们的尸体并不在任何特定的地方。

And philosophers’ examples were always things like opening a doorknob or something like that, these very abstract, minimal interactions with the world.

哲学家的例子总是像打开门把手之类的事情，这些非常抽象的、与世界最小的互动。

Whereas to me, a key feature of being embodied is that you’re embodied somewhere, and the somewhere that you are is this endlessly complex, concrete space.

而对我来说，体现的一个关键特征是你体现在某个地方，而你所在的地方就是这个无限复杂的具体空间。

And I think that has a huge impact on all of these questions to do with subjectivity, agency, free will, perception, how we perceive danger, how we perceive safety, and so on.

我认为这对所有这些与主观性、能动性、自由意志、感知、我们如何感知危险、我们如何感知安全等等有关的问题都有巨大的影响。

I’ve always been interested in that.

我一直对此很感兴趣。

Separately, I’ve kind of nonacademically always been obsessed with cities.

另外，我在非学术上一直对城市着迷。

I grew up smack in the middle of a giant city.

我在一座大城市的中心长大。

I loved it.

我喜欢它。

It gave me freedom.

它给了我自由。

I started exploring it very young.

我很小的时候就开始探索它。

A few years ago, I started working on what started out as this very traditional philosophy book, thinking about how material spaces and the people who live in those spaces constitute one another.

几年前，我开始写一本非常传统的哲学书，思考物质空间和生活在这些空间中的人们如何相互构成。

I was thinking about using things like some ecological niche theory from philosophy of biology and some other material like that, some work from phenomenology, to talk about how we are inherently shaped by the places that we are in.

我正在考虑使用生物学哲学中的生态位理论和其他一些类似的材料，现象学中的一些著作来讨论我们如何被我们所处的地方所固有地塑造。

But that likewise, what people do is modify their spaces and their places and give them new meanings and change them in the ways they need to make them suit their needs.

但同样，人们所做的就是改变他们的空间和地点，赋予它们新的意义，并以他们需要的方式改变它们，使它们适合自己的需求。

So there’s a kind of a symbiotic relationship, a niche-building relationship between places and people.

因此，地方和人之间存在一种共生关系，一种利基构建关系。

And it seemed to me most interesting to think about how that worked in urban spaces, where you’ve got a whole lot of people in a really complex space bumping up against one another.

在我看来，最有趣的是思考它如何在城市空间中发挥作用，在城市空间中，有很多人在一个非常复杂的空间中相互碰撞。

And then my question is, well, when that regime ends kind of abruptly, and the city gets filled up with new people living in new ways that aren’t suited to that material form, how does that thing I was just talking about happen?

然后我的问题是，好吧，当这个政权突然结束，城市里充满了以不适合这种物质形式的新方式生活的新人时，我刚才所说的事情是如何发生的？

How do they rejig and remake their space to make it suit them, and conversely, how does this old found space shape what they can do with it?

他们如何重新调整和改造他们的空间以使其适合他们，相反，这个旧发现的空间如何塑造他们可以用它做什么？

I was interested in Johannesburg as a post-apartheid city and trying to figure out .

我对约翰内斯堡作为一个后种族隔离城市很感兴趣，并试图弄清楚。

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。

.

。

Johannesburg is mostly an immigrant city now.

约翰内斯堡现在主要是一个移民城市。

A very small percentage of the people who live there are South African.

居住在那里的人中只有很小一部分是南非人。

It’s flooded with all kinds of people from all over Africa, who are not who the city was built to house.

这里挤满了来自非洲各地的各种各样的人，而这些人并不是这座城市的建造目的。

And so it’s got to repurpose itself in this very rapid, dramatic way.

因此它必须以这种非常快速、戏剧性的方式重新调整自己的用途。

If I had to take a philosophical punch line out of that experience, it’s that apartheid was a system of top-down segregation and division and surveillance.

如果我必须从这次经历中摘取一句哲学妙语的话，那就是种族隔离是一种自上而下的隔离、分裂和监视制度。

And now the city doesn’t have that, but it has substituted it with all kinds of bottom-up strategies for self-enclaving and division and drawing lines and territories between groups and between people so that, in a lot of ways, the city is as divided and segregated as it ever was, but in new ways.

现在这座城市没有了，但它已经用各种自下而上的自我封闭和分裂策略取代了它，并在群体之间和人与人之间划定界限和领土，因此，在很多方面，城市像以前一样分裂和隔离，但以新的方式。

I think that one lesson to take out of it is that, when people repurpose space, they don’t necessarily repurpose it in the direction of inclusivity and harmony and so on.

我认为从中吸取的一个教训是，当人们重新利用空间时，他们不一定会朝着包容性和和谐等方向重新利用它。

Sometimes they repurpose it in ways that are just going to introduce new kinds of divisions.

有时，他们重新调整其用途，只会引入新的部门类型。

That said, that sounds really negative, and I have to say I found Johannesburg this incredibly creative, vibrant, gorgeous, exciting city, and I really loved being there.

这就是说，这听起来真的很消极，我不得不说，我发现约翰内斯堡是一座非常有创意、充满活力、华丽、令人兴奋的城市，我真的很喜欢在那里。

But at the same time, there’s just no denying it’s an incredibly fractured, troubled space.

但与此同时，不可否认的是，这是一个极其破碎、充满麻烦的空间。

And it’s fascinating to see the way people are, of their own accord, fracturing it rather than healing it in a lot of cases.

令人着迷的是，在很多情况下，人们会自愿地破坏而不是治愈它。

But what I was not expecting was just how functional that city seems to be.

但令我没想到的是，这座城市的功能似乎如此强大。

It’s just an incredibly easy city to walk around, to be in, to explore, to eat in.

这是一座非常容易漫步、入住、探索和用餐的城市。

It was an extremely welcoming city.

那是一座非常热情好客的城市。

It had the largest and most vibrant gay neighborhood that I might have seen in almost any city.

它拥有我在几乎所有城市见过的最大、最有活力的同性恋社区。

The street art in Colombia was fantastic.

哥伦比亚的街头艺术非常棒。

They have a new mayor who has gone out of his way to encourage street art, to loosen up the graffiti laws, and also to bring in street artists.

他们有一位新市长，他不遗余力地鼓励街头艺术，放宽涂鸦法律，并引进街头艺术家。

So the city is turning into this huge palette.

所以这座城市正在变成这个巨大的调色板。

The main way that it surprised me was that I didn’t realize that I had stereotypes about South American cities, but I suppose I did, and I suppose I expected it to be a little bit dysfunctional and hard to manage and rough going.

让我感到惊讶的主要是，我没有意识到我对南美城市有成见，但我想我意识到了，而且我想我预计它会有点功能失调、难以管理和粗糙。

And it was just such a model of a well-run city at this point.

此时此刻，这正是一个管理良好的城市的典范。

It was really inspiring.

这真的很鼓舞人心。

But if you actually go into the center of Tampa, into inner city Tampa, it’s an incredibly distinctive city.

但如果你真的走进坦帕市中心，走进坦帕市中心，你会发现这是一座非常独特的城市。

It has a long history as a center of labor activism.

它作为劳工激进主义中心有着悠久的历史。

It’s incredibly racially diverse.

这是令人难以置信的种族多样性。

It was a cigar city originally, and it’s filled with Cubans and Central Americans and Caribbeans and also Romanians and Jews and Italians and Spanish folks, and they all came together, and they all created this distinctive Tampa culture that actually really has its own food and its own music, which is just a mixture of all of these things.

它原本是一座雪茄之城，充满了古巴人、中美洲人和加勒比人，还有罗马尼亚人、犹太人、意大利人和西班牙人，他们都聚集在一起，创造了这种独特的坦帕文化，实际上它有自己的食物和自己的音乐，它只是所有这些东西的混合体。

And when you’re in the middle of Tampa you almost feel like you’re in a different country.

当您身处坦帕市中心时，您几乎感觉自己身处另一个国家。

It’s so lush, and it’s so weird, and it’s so not organized.

它是如此茂盛，又如此奇怪，而且如此没有组织。

There’s almost no city planning there whatsoever.

那里几乎没有任何城市规划。

So you’re in this city, and you’re in the middle of a business district, but there will be chickens walking by, and there will be water birds wandering across your path, and there will be geckos climbing up things.

所以你在这座城市，在商业区的中心，但是会有鸡走过，会有水鸟在你的路上徘徊，还会有壁虎爬上东西。

It’s all very tropical and exotic and evocative, and at the same time it has this really vibrant culture on the ground that almost nobody knows about because when they think of Tampa, they just think of this sort of bland city that you get around the edges.

这一切都非常热带、充满异国情调、令人回味，同时它还有这种真正充满活力的文化，几乎没有人知道，因为当他们想到坦帕时，他们只想到这种平淡无奇的城市，你可以绕过边缘。

I think not only is it underrated, but it’s really hidden and underexplored.

我认为它不仅被低估了，而且确实是隐藏的和未被充分探索的。

It’s one of the few spots in the States that I feel has not really been mined yet compared to other urban areas.

与其他城市地区相比，我认为这是美国为数不多的尚未真正被开采的地点之一。

I think that in the city of DC itself, there is so much pressure to cater to the common denominator because mostly you have people having meetings, constantly having meetings, and they’re meetings where nobody wants to offend anybody else because they’re trying to make a political deal, or they’re trying to settle a case, or it’s whatever it is.

我认为在华盛顿特区本身，迎合共同点的压力很大，因为大多数人都在开会，不断地开会，而在这些会议上，没有人想冒犯任何人，因为他们试图达成一项政治协议，或者他们试图解决一个案件，或者无论是什么。

So they want the food to be adequate and respectable but intrude minimally into their experience.

因此，他们希望食物充足且体面，但对他们的体验的影响最小。

And if you want to find good food, you have to get away from all the meetings, and you have to get out into the smaller ethnic enclaves in the suburbs.

如果你想找到美味的食物，你就必须远离所有的聚会，并且你必须进入郊区较小的民族聚居区。

I’m not sure how much you want me to say about my process of finding food, but for me, it’s this really complicated balance of reading user reviews, knowing which user reviews .

我不确定你有多想让我谈论我寻找食物的过程，但对我来说，阅读用户评论和了解哪些用户评论之间的平衡非常复杂。

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。

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I have a good sense for which ones should be written off as ignorable and which ones are worthwhile.

我很清楚哪些是可以忽略的，哪些是值得的。

I find that places that have too many user reviews are usually bland, and places that have too few are not as good a bet.

我发现用户评论太多的地方通常平淡无奇，而用户评论太少的地方则不太好。

So you want to maximize the right number of user reviews of the right kind, and you want to make sure that the food is appropriate to the ecology of the neighborhood it’s in, that it’s not an Ethiopian restaurant in a Thai neighborhood, or whatever it may be.

因此，您希望最大限度地增加正确类型的用户评论数量，并且您希望确保食物适合其所在社区的生态，而不是泰国社区中的埃塞俄比亚餐厅，或者其他任何东西。

Those are less likely to be good.

这些不太可能是好事。

Yes, it’s a complicated calculus for me, but I find eating in DC itself just fine.

是的，这对我来说是一个复杂的计算，但我发现在华盛顿吃饭就很好了。

But I get more excited when I get to eat in other places.

但当我在其他地方吃饭时我会更兴奋。

You can’t just fall into polyamory right now.

你现在不能陷入一夫多妻制。

If you’re going to do it, you have to explicitly sit there and think, “What am I trying to get out of this?” And then you have to explicitly negotiate with partners and future partners, “What are our shared norms?

如果你打算这样做，你必须明确地坐在那里思考：“我想从中得到什么？”然后你必须与合作伙伴和未来的合作伙伴明确谈判，“我们的共同准则是什么？

What are our expectations?” Nothing can just be taken for granted the way it can for traditional, heterosexual, monogamous, or purportedly monogamous, relationships.

我们的期望是什么？”没有什么可以像传统的异性恋、一夫一妻制或所谓的一夫一妻制关系那样被视为理所当然。

I think that, for most straight, monogamous people, there’s very little thinking about what their fundamental relationship and sexual values and norms are and what their boundaries are.

我认为，对于大多数异性恋、一夫一妻制的人来说，很少考虑他们的基本关系、性价值观和规范是什么以及他们的界限是什么。

They just sort of go with the flow.

他们只是随波逐流。

Or to get back to your .

或者返回您的。

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Heidegger would say they just find themselves thrown.

海德格尔会说他们只是发现自己被抛弃了。

They just find themselves in the midst of the norms and carry on.

他们只是发现自己处于规范之中并继续前进。

So your question about scaling — it super depends on how it’s scaled.

所以你关于缩放的问题 ——它超级取决于它是如何缩放的。

If it became a thing that everybody did, and in the meantime, what had built up and become the unreflective norm were a bunch of crappy, misogynistic, exploitative practices, then it would be worse.

如果这成为每个人都做的事情，而与此同时，已经建立起来并成为不加反思的规范的是一堆蹩脚的、厌恶女性的、剥削性的做法，那么情况会更糟。

If it scaled up, and it scaled up in such a way that the unreflective, widespread norms were better and thoughtful and more enlightened, then it would be better.

如果它能够扩大规模，并且以这样一种方式扩大规模，即未经反思的、广泛传播的规范变得更好、更周到、更开明，那就更好了。

I don’t have an in-principle question to whether scaling would make it better or worse.

对于扩展是否会使情况变得更好或更糟，我没有原则性的问题。

To me it’s all about how those norms would end up developing organically and through reflection and discussion, and what kind of sexual ecology we would end up with.

对我来说，这一切都是关于这些规范最终如何通过反思和讨论有机发展，以及我们最终会得到什么样的性生态。

I think the sexual ecology we have right now in the broader culture is pretty messed up in a lot of ways.

我认为我们现在在更广泛的文化中的性生态在很多方面都相当混乱。

We could end up with a better one, or we could end up with one that recreated a lot of those forms of being messed up and just turned out to be exploitative.

我们最终可能会得到一个更好的结果，或者我们最终可能会得到一个重现了许多混乱形式的结果，结果却是剥削性的。

It’s very hard to guess in advance.

提前猜测是非常困难的。

He was doing this because he really liked the company of academics and didn’t get it very often.

他这样做是因为他真的很喜欢学者的陪伴，但并不经常得到学者的陪伴。

The dinners — they were political in the sense that we debated political issues, but I never felt like I was being used as a tool in the Bernie machine or anything like that.

晚宴——从我们辩论政治问题的意义上来说，它们是政治性的，但我从来没有觉得自己被用作伯尼机器或类似东西的工具。

It really felt like he wanted to talk to people, and I, as a very, very young, just-starting-out academic, felt incredibly excited and privileged to be among all of these enthusiastic and intellectual lefties, who were all yelling at one another and getting super excited about the rebirth of socialism or whatever it may be.

感觉他真的很想与人交谈，而我，作为一名非常非常年轻、刚刚起步的学者，能够加入这些热情而知识分子的左派之中，感到非常兴奋和荣幸，他们都互相大喊大叫，对社会主义的重生或其他什么都感到非常兴奋。

It was really fun.

真的很有趣。

I have a total soft spot for the David Cronenberg movies that were out-and-out over-the-top exploding stuff and high drama.

我对大卫·柯南伯格的电影情有独钟，这些电影充满了不折不扣的爆炸性内容和高度戏剧性。

I loved Scanners, and I loved Videodrome.

我喜欢扫描仪，也喜欢Videodrome。

I love all the ones where it’s gross stuff coming out of other stuff, and so on.

我喜欢所有那些从其他东西中衍生出恶心的东西的东西，等等。

I don’t have a highly theoretical reason for that.

我对此没有高度理论化的理由。

I like movies that are extreme, and I love that he was willing to be incredibly low-budget extreme in his imagery back in the day.

我喜欢极端的电影，我喜欢他愿意在当时的图像中以令人难以置信的低预算极端。

That was what was most fun for me.

这对我来说是最有趣的。