Rabbi David Wolpe on Leadership, Religion, and Identity (Ep. 19 - Live at Sixth & I)
Thank you all for coming.
谢谢大家的到来。
This is my chance to ask you the questions I want to learn about.
这是我向您询问我想了解的问题的机会。
So your latest book: it’s called, David: The Divided Heart.
所以你的最新书：它的名字是《大卫：分裂的心》。
And the Book of Samuel is probably the greatest political biography of all time, one of the most significant books on politics.
《撒母耳记》可能是有史以来最伟大的政治传记，也是最重要的政治书籍之一。
So I’d like to start with some questions there.
所以我想从一些问题开始。
OK.
好的。
In how you view that book, why is it that David, if indeed you believe this, was a better king than Saul?
在你如何看待这本书中，如果你确实相信这一点，为什么大卫是比扫罗更好的国王？
First of all, thank you for inviting me to this grilling .
首先感谢您邀请我参加这次烧烤。
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dialogue.
对话。
I do believe that David was a better king than Saul.
我确实相信大卫是比扫罗更好的国王。
The first test of a king in the ancient world is what David did that is remarkable, and that is, he died in his bed.
古代世界对君王的第一个考验是大卫做了什么了不起的事，那就是他死在床上。
That’s rare among ancient and medieval kings, as you know.
如您所知，这在古代和中世纪国王中很少见。
And so survival in and of itself is a test of merit.
因此，生存本身就是对功绩的考验。
Even not speaking about in divine eyes, but just in human eyes.
甚至不是在神眼中说的，只是在人眼中说的。
Also in some way, Saul seemed to have lost the confidence of the people.
在某种程度上，扫罗似乎也失去了人们的信任。
And while no contemporary analogies are intended in anything that I say , you cannot underestimate the value of charisma in a political leader.
虽然我所说的任何内容都没有任何当代类比的意图，但你不能低估政治领袖魅力的价值。
And David had tremendous charisma.
大卫具有巨大的魅力。
So when the women of Israel went out into the streets and said, “Saul has killed thousands, but David has killed tens of thousands” — that was already a signal that Saul was going to fail and fall.
因此，当以色列妇女走上街头说：“扫罗杀了数千人，但大卫杀了数万人”时——这已经是扫罗即将失败和倒台的信号。
So I think that on those two, just survival and charisma alone, you would have to say that David was a more successful leader.
所以我认为，就这两者而言，仅考虑生存和魅力，你就不得不说大卫是一位更成功的领导者。
So if someone makes the argument that David was a better king because he never committed idolatry, would you accept that description?
因此，如果有人认为大卫是一个更好的国王，因为他从未崇拜过偶像，你会接受这种描述吗？
A better king cause he never committed .
一个更好的国王，因为他从未承诺过。
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Well, no. Because it’s not clear that Saul committed idolatry.
嗯，不。因为尚不清楚扫罗是否崇拜偶像。
It’s pretty clear that David didn’t.
很明显，大卫没有。
I would say .
我会说。
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And also, Saul is told to kill the king and to get rid of all the Amalekites, and he doesn’t do that.
此外，扫罗被告知要杀死国王并除掉所有亚玛力人，但他没有这样做。
And he doesn’t.
但他没有。
And that is mentioned again, that that was his failing.
再次提到，那是他的失败。
And isn’t that what appears to be a small thing, a big thing, or no?
这难道不是看起来是小事、大事还是不是？
Yes.
是的。
The sin there — that’s actually a very problematic sin, where he’s told, “You didn’t kill enough people, and you didn’t slaughter the king when you were supposed to.” But the idea is that, the way the Talmud puts it is that somebody who is kind to the cruel will end up being cruel to the kind.
那里的罪孽——这实际上是一个非常有问题的罪孽，他被告知，“你没有杀足够的人，而且你没有在应该杀掉国王的时候杀掉国王。”但《塔木德》的想法是，对残忍者仁慈的人最终也会对善良者残忍。
And the idea that your enemies have to be dispatched or at least effectively subdued was something that Saul didn’t have the stomach for.
扫罗不同意必须消灭敌人或至少有效制服敌人的想法。
And I would say in the ancient world, maybe that would make you an unsuccessful king.
我想说，在古代世界，也许这会让你成为一个不成功的国王。
So if the commands of God are not necessarily visible to the rest of us, what for you is the implied political epistemology of the book?
那么，如果我们其他人不一定能看到上帝的命令，那么这本书隐含的政治认识论对你来说是什么？
How do we know when we have a good king, leader, president, if that’s an important feature, and we as outsiders don’t know who has received what message or commands from God?
我们如何知道我们何时拥有一位好国王、领袖、总统，这是否是一个重要特征，而我们作为局外人不知道谁从上帝那里收到了哪些信息或命令？
How do we know in general?
一般情况下我们如何知道？
Or how do we know in a book of the Bible?
或者我们如何从圣经中得知？
Because those could be two different .
因为那些可能是两个不同的。
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Both.
两个都。
Sure.
当然。
I would say that one of the problems with the Bible is that you can always say, “How did the person know that God was speaking to them?” Since I can’t, as Queen Elizabeth said, “cut windows into people’s souls,” I have no idea if God spoke to David.
我想说圣经的问题之一是你总是可以说，“这个人怎么知道神在对他们说话？”因为我不能像伊丽莎白女王所说的那样“在人们的灵魂中切开窗户”，所以我不知道上帝是否对大卫说话。
That’s something you have to either take on faith or not.
这是你必须相信或不相信的事情。
What I do know is that David was successful in unifying the kingdom, subduing rebellion, leaving a lasting legacy where people believed that he would lead ultimately to the Messiah, and also installing his son in the kingship.
我所知道的是，大卫成功地统一了王国，平息了叛乱，留下了持久的遗产，人们相信他最终会带领弥赛亚，并让他的儿子登上王位。
And his son succeeded in building the temple, which became, for a long time, the center point of Jewish religion.
他的儿子成功地建造了这座圣殿，这座圣殿在很长一段时间内成为犹太宗教的中心。
And he established Jerusalem as the capital, which if he had only done that, would’ve been an extraordinary achievement.
他将耶路撒冷定为首都，如果他这么做了，那将是一项非凡的成就。
So if you want to attribute that to the fact that David listened to God, and that the Psalms are in fact an expression of David’s soul, I don’t have a problem with that.
所以，如果你想把这归因于大卫听从上帝的话，而诗篇实际上是大卫灵魂的表达，我对此没有意见。
But if you want to be a pragmatist about it and just look at results, I would say that’s how you judge the success of a leader then and now.
但如果你想成为一个实用主义者，只看结果，我想说这就是你判断领导者当时和现在成功的方式。
On Biblical implications for the existence of a political order
论圣经对政治秩序存在的影响
If you think of it being an implicit question in the book of Genesis, first, how is there a political order at all?
如果你认为这是创世记中隐含的问题，那么首先，政治秩序到底是如何存在的？
And also why is it that brothers do not kill each other?
还有为什么兄弟之间不互相残杀呢？
And those in Genesis, to my reading, were not at all resolved.
根据我的阅读，《创世记》中的那些内容根本没有得到解决。
And then you have the Book of Samuel and the David story — by the end of that, what’s the extra thing we’ve learned?
然后还有《撒母耳记》和《大卫的故事》——到最后，我们还学到了什么？
What’s the resolution to those questions?
这些问题的答案是什么？
To the questions of .
对于 的问题。
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How is it that political order is possible at a deep, metaphysical level?
政治秩序如何在深刻的、形而上学的层面上成为可能？
And how is it that brothers don’t kill each other?
兄弟之间怎么不互相残杀呢？
Is there any resolution?
有解决办法吗？
Well, first of all brothers not killing each other is always a provisional statement.
好吧，首先兄弟不互相残杀始终是一个临时声明。
I say this with two of my brothers in the audience.
我对观众席上的两个兄弟说这句话。
And I think that it’s fair to say that we have not killed each other yet.
我认为可以公平地说我们还没有互相残杀。
But let me first give you my sermonic answer.
但让我首先给你们我的讲道答案。
The beauty of the book of Genesis is, all through Genesis, brothers are fighting even though they don’t kill each other in the end.
《创世记》的美妙之处在于，在整个《创世记》中，兄弟们都在互相争斗，尽管他们最终没有互相残杀。
And then the very last set of brothers — the reason that they fight is because generally, in one way, the younger is preferred over the older, and there are questions of birthright and so on.
然后最后一对兄弟——他们之所以打架，是因为一般来说，在某种程度上，年幼的比年长的更受优先考虑，还有名分等等问题。
And then toward the very last scene, there are two brothers, Ephraim and Manasseh.
然后到最后一幕，有两个兄弟，以法莲和玛拿西。
Manasseh’s the older, Ephraim is the younger.
玛拿西年纪较大，以法莲年纪较小。
Jacob blesses, as the grandfather, he blesses the younger with the better blessing, and Manasseh doesn’t protest.
雅各祝福，作为祖父，他以更好的祝福祝福年轻的，玛拿西没有抗议。
He’s actually kind of the silent hero of the book.
他实际上是这本书中沉默的英雄。
So I would say that there is a degree of acceptance that is taught, an unequal distribution of goods, if I can transgress into your field for a moment.
所以我想说，如果我能暂时进入你的领域的话，就会有一定程度的接受，以及商品的不平等分配。
And that’s the way the world is, and you have to accept that there will be different degrees of talent and gifts and so on and so forth.
世界就是这样，你必须接受存在不同程度的才能和天赋等等。
And the acceptance of that, that is the acceptance of God’s gifts at unequal levels, is the way interpersonally brothers succeed in not killing each other.
接受这一点，即在不平等的水平上接受上帝的恩赐，是人与人之间兄弟成功地不互相残杀的方法。
And in terms of the establishment of a political order, I think there the idea, at least in Samuel, what starts to happen is that there is an understood division between the political order and the religious order, that is Samuel’s the high priest and the leader.
就政治秩序的建立而言，我认为至少在撒母耳身上，开始发生的是政治秩序和宗教秩序之间存在一种可以理解的划分，即撒母耳是大祭司和领袖。
And he gets very upset when they want to have a king because he says, “Why am I not good enough?” The reason is, because you need a political order that is different.
当他们想要一个国王时，他会非常沮丧，因为他说：“为什么我不够好？”原因是，因为你需要一个不同的政治秩序。
You need separation effectively of synagogue and state to some degree.
你需要在某种程度上有效地将犹太教堂和国家分开。
On the self-confidence of flawed leaders, yesterday and today
昨天和今天有缺陷的领导者的自信
Let’s say you have a leader who has had several wives, has served the interests of a foreign power, is very good at blame shifting.
假设你有一位领导人，他有几个妻子，为外国势力的利益服务，非常善于推卸责任。
Should that leader be as self-confident as David seems to be in the Book of Samuel?
这位领袖应该像《撒母耳记》中的大卫那样自信吗？
Apparently.
显然。
According to the standards of the time, having several wives was normative, and they weren’t sequential, they were simultaneous.
按照当时的标准，拥有多个妻子是正常的，而且不是先后的，而是同时的。
So as my friend Joseph Telushkin says, “Polygamy does exist in the Bible, it’s just never successful.” David does have many wives, and very strained and interesting and complex relationships with women.
正如我的朋友约瑟夫·特卢什金（Joseph Telushkin）所说，“圣经中确实存在一夫多妻制，只是从来没有成功过。”大卫确实有很多妻子，与女性的关系也非常紧张、有趣且复杂。
David has the most complicated and most described relationships with women of any character in the Hebrew Bible.
在希伯来圣经中，大卫与各种女性人物的关系是最复杂、描述最多的。
Those qualities that can be negative, in David are to some extent positive.
在大卫身上，那些可能是消极的品质在某种程度上是积极的。
One of the things that draws David out of the charge of simple narcissism is that he really listens, he pays attention — he pays attention to women over and over again.
让大卫摆脱简单自恋指控的一件事是，他真正倾听，他关注——他一遍又一遍地关注女性。
He listens to what they say and changes himself because of it.
他倾听他们的意见并因此改变自己。
And that’s not a characteristic of men in the ancient world or the modern one that you can rely on.
这不是你可以信赖的古代或现代男人的特征。
So I would say next to his hubris, there’s a self-effacement, and next to his charisma, there’s also a receptivity.
所以我想说，除了他的傲慢之外，还有一种自我贬低，除了他的魅力之外，还有一种包容性。
And yet, in the complex of his personality, you can understand why people might look at him to draw a very different political figure, the way that at some point, I think it was Seward said about Lincoln, which is, “He’s the best among us.”
然而，在他复杂的性格中，你可以理解为什么人们可能会认为他是一个非常不同的政治人物，就像在某些时候，我认为苏厄德谈到林肯时所说的那样，“他是我们当中最好的”。
Let me press you on two of the things you say in the book.
让我向您强调您在书中所说的两件事。
There are two things you said that surprised me, so let me try to become unsurprised.
你说的有两件事让我感到惊讶，所以让我尽量表现得不感到惊讶。
I think it’s on page 33, you said, “Of all the characters in the Book of Samuel, the one you could best imagine as also being a king is Jonathan because Jonathan had a capacity for self-sacrifice.”
我记得在第 33 页，你说，“在《撒母耳记》中的所有人物中，你最能想象成为国王的人是约拿单，因为约拿单有自我牺牲的能力。”
Right.
正确的。
And that surprised me because, again, I’m very much a novice on this territory, but I think of him as a little too nice a guy and not strong enough, in the right way, to actually be a king in that time.
这让我感到惊讶，因为我在这个领域还是个新手，但我认为他是一个有点太好的人，而且不够强大，以正确的方式，在当时真正成为国王。
I think you’re probably right.
我想你可能是对的。
I could imagine him as a king.
我可以把他想象成一个国王。
First of all, he was the son of the king, so he was the natural heir.
首先，他是国王的儿子，所以他是天然的继承人。
And as we know, that often happens — that the natural heir may not be the fitting king.
正如我们所知，这种情况经常发生——自然继承人可能不是合适的国王。
And also, I thought that Jonathan was the kind of person that people would be drawn to, but I think that that’s probably a worthy caveat: He probably would’ve gotten killed in the kingship in a way that David was too strong a personality and too crafty an operator to allow himself to be killed.
而且，我认为乔纳森是那种人们会被吸引的人，但我认为这可能是一个值得警告的地方：他可能会在王位上被杀，而大卫的个性太强烈，而且是一个太狡猾的操作者，他不会允许自己被杀。
On Chronicles as the boring version of Samuel
论《历代志》是无聊版的撒母耳
Now on page 18, there’s a claim you make and I don’t want to misquote you here, but I understand you to be saying something like, “Chronicles is like a boring retelling of the story of David.”
现在在第 18 页，你提出了一个主张，我不想在这里错误引用你的话，但我理解你的意思是，“编年史就像是对大卫故事的无聊重述。”
That’s almost a direct quote.
这几乎是直接引用。
I said, “Chronicles is Samuel made boring.”
我说，“编年史让塞缪尔变得无聊了。”
But again, coming to this as an outsider, I read Chronicles, I think of Chronicles as the very long-run perspective, saying that all of these events of the moment, which are so dramatic, so emotional, so engrossing, they seem to be what’s so relevant.
但再次，作为一个局外人，我读了《编年史》，我认为《编年史》是从长远的角度来看的，它说当时所有这些事件都是如此戏剧性、如此情绪化、如此引人入胜，它们似乎是如此相关。
Just like we’re all entranced by Twitter or the daily news.
就像我们都对 Twitter 或每日新闻着迷一样。
But ultimately, what matters is the long run of history.
但最终，重要的是长期的历史。
Does the kingdom survive?
王国还存续吗？
And it’s actually the contrast between the extreme impersonality of Chronicles and the deeply personal story of Book of Samuel — that are these multiple duelers competing, layers or levels of wisdom.
这实际上是《编年史》的极端客观性与《撒母耳记》的深刻个人故事之间的对比——这是多个决斗者相互竞争、智慧的层次或层次。
And that, that’s better than either book taken alone.
这比单独看这两本书要好。
Am I off base there?
我是不是偏离了基地？
No, I think that’s a beautiful explanation.
不，我认为这是一个很好的解释。
I would say two things about it: One is, if you’re writing this story of David, and you’re writing the story of David as opposed to, say, a political analysis of David’s kingship, then you want the story at its most dramatic, full of blood and fury and sex and betrayal and so on.
对此我想说两点：一是，如果你正在写大卫的故事，并且你正在写大卫的故事，而不是对大卫王权的政治分析，那么你想要这个故事最戏剧化，充满血腥、愤怒、性和背叛等等。
And that’s in Samuel.
这就是撒母耳记中的事。
The second is that Chronicles — it’s not just that Chronicles is .
第二个是《编年史》——《编年史》不只是……。
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When I said it was made boring, what I meant was, not that it’s a dry textbook as opposed to a bodice ripper of a romance novel.
当我说它变得无聊时，我的意思并不是说它是一本枯燥的教科书，而不是一部浪漫小说的紧身衣撕裂者。
But that it takes the very humanness of David and tries to sanctify him, in a way that I think is untrue to David’s character.
但这需要大卫的人性并试图使他成圣，我认为这种方式不符合大卫的性格。
It’s the first time, for example, that the character of the Satan appears as an inciter.
例如，这是第一次，撒旦的角色以煽动者的身份出现。
He incites David to do something bad, so that way you don’t have to blame David that he did it.
他煽动大卫做坏事，这样你就不必责怪大卫做了这件事。
And in that sense, I think the Chronicles is a sanitizing of the real history of David, even though it may be a more interesting political — I don’t know — more interesting, a different political lens.
从这个意义上说，我认为《历代志》是对大卫真实历史的净化，尽管它可能是一个更有趣的政治 ——“我不知道”—— 更有趣，一个不同的政治视角。
When I said was made boring, what I meant was, not that it’s a dry textbook as opposed to a bodice ripper of a romance novel.
当我说变得无聊时，我的意思是，并不是说这是一本枯燥的教科书，而不是一部浪漫小说的紧身衣撕裂者。
But that it takes the very humanness of David and tries to sanctify him, in a way that I think is untrue to David’s character.
但这需要大卫的人性并试图使他成圣，我认为这种方式不符合大卫的性格。
On influential Jewish thinkers
关于有影响力的犹太思想家
Now let me try asking you about some well-known Jewish thinkers, and tell me what you think are their significance, either for Judaism or maybe for you personally.
现在让我尝试向您询问一些著名的犹太思想家，并告诉我您认为他们对犹太教或对您个人的意义是什么。
And here’s a man who sadly passed away not long ago: Jacob Neusner.
这是不久前不幸去世的一个人：雅各布·诺伊斯纳 (Jacob Neusner)。
So, Neusner was a very interesting character in a lot of ways.
所以，诺伊斯纳在很多方面都是一个非常有趣的角色。
I think the brief biography, and some of you may not know, Jacob Neusner was the most productive and prolific scholar of the 20th century.
我想，你们中有些人可能不知道，雅各布·诺伊斯纳（Jacob Neusner）是20世纪最多产、最多产的学者。
Notice I did not say Jewish scholar, I said scholar.
请注意，我没有说犹太学者，我说的是学者。
He’s credited with almost 1,000 books, maybe more.
他创作了近 1,000 本书，甚至更多。
Have you read them all?
你都读过吗？
WOLPE: I’ve read them at least once.
沃尔普：我至少读过一次。
I’ve read several of them, but some of them were produced by his students and some of them are translations and so on, but even when you strip away all the accretions, he still was a phenomenally productive scholar, and in many ways changed the field of Talmud studies, even though traditional Talmudists didn’t like to think that, in part because they didn’t like to think that and in part because he was a notoriously difficult character, and I will leave it at that.
我读过其中几本，但其中一些是他的学生创作的，有些是翻译等等，但即使当你剥离所有的积累时，他仍然是一位非常多产的学者，并在很多方面改变了塔木德研究领域，尽管传统的塔木德主义者不喜欢这样想，部分是因为他们不喜欢这样想，部分是因为他是一个出了名的难相处的人物，我将就此结束。
But what Neusner did was something very simple, which he learned from his beginning in renaissance studies, which is, when it says, “Rabbi So-and-So told Rabbi So-and-So this,” he started to question the attributions.
但诺伊斯纳所做的事情非常简单，这是他从文艺复兴研究开始时学到的，也就是说，当它说“某某拉比告诉某某拉比这件事”时，他开始质疑这些归因。
How do we know that Rabbi So-and-So said that?
我们怎么知道某拉比说过这样的话？
And he started to apply scientific study of texts in the 20th century to the Talmud in a way that had not been done before, and he had a very brilliant schematic mind.
他开始以一种前所未有的方式将 20 世纪文本的科学研究应用于《塔木德》，而且他拥有非常出色的图解思维。
So anybody who studies Talmud today, whether they say it or not, they’re indebted to Neusner, and certainly, my teachers were and they made sure that we were as well.
因此，今天任何研究塔木德的人，无论他们是否承认，他们都感谢诺伊斯纳，当然，我的老师们也感谢诺伊斯纳，他们也确保我们也感谢诺伊斯纳。
Primo Levi, the Italian writer.
普里莫·莱维，意大利作家。
Primo Levi is a problematic figure in some sad way because, although it’s not a universal consensus, most people believe he committed suicide and Elie Wiesel said that he “died at Auschwitz 40 years later.”
普里莫·莱维（Primo Levi）在某种程度上是一个令人悲伤的问题人物，因为尽管这不是普遍共识，但大多数人都认为他自杀了，埃利·维塞尔（Elie Wiesel）说他“40年后死于奥斯威辛”。
The thing about Levi that is so remarkable is that he’s one of those rare — almost like Chekhov — he’s a scientific mind that is a brilliant literary writer.
列维的非凡之处在于，他是一位罕见的人——几乎像契诃夫——他既有科学头脑，又是一位才华横溢的文学作家。
So when you read him on Auschwitz, you’re reading very careful, detailed prose that is heartbreaking.
因此，当你阅读他关于奥斯维辛的文章时，你会读到非常仔细、详细、令人心碎的散文。
He doesn’t appeal to your heart.
他不吸引你的心。
Instead he just tells you in a crystalline way what happened.
相反，他只是以清晰的方式告诉你发生了什么。
I’ll give you one analogy that I’ve never actually written about or seen written about, and I thought of it years ago and I hope that I’m remembering it right.
我会给你一个我从未真正写过或见过的类比，我几年前就想到过它，我希望我没记错。
There’s one place I think in Survival in Auschwitz where Primo Levi talks about a bricklayer, that the Nazis asked him to build a wall, and he couldn’t persuade himself to build it badly.
我记得在《奥斯维辛集中营的生存》中有一个地方，普里莫·莱维谈到了一位泥瓦匠，纳粹要求他建造一堵墙，但他无法说服自己把它建造得很糟糕。
He just couldn’t because that was his pride.
他只是不能，因为那是他的骄傲。
And it reminded me that there’s this great — that I haven’t read for years and I’m sure I could find it — but there’s a Maupassant story about a guy who’s a circus performer, and what he does is he fires arrows into an apple on his wife’s head, and that’s their circus act, and he starts to hate his wife and he wants to kill her, but he can’t bring himself to do it wrong.
这让我想起了这本伟大的书——我已经好几年没有读过它了，我相信我能找到它——但是有一个莫泊桑的故事，讲的是一个马戏团演员，他所做的就是向他妻子头上的苹果射箭，这就是他们的马戏表演，他开始恨他的妻子，他想杀了她，但他无法让自己明白做错了。
He can’t do it.
他做不到。
And weirdly, when I read the Levi thing and I thought of the Maupassant thing, and I thought that in some ways, that sense of, “I must be accurate all the time,” that’s what Levi is.
奇怪的是，当我读到莱维的事时，我想到了莫泊桑的事，我认为在某些方面，那种“我必须始终准确”的感觉，就是莱维。
It’s like, “I can’t get this wrong,” and when you read that on Auschwitz and you know that the person that you’re reading won’t exaggerate or distort — it makes it that much more painful.
这就像，“我不会弄错”，当你读到关于奥斯维辛的内容，并且你知道你正在读的人不会夸大或歪曲——这会让事情变得更加痛苦。
The thing about Levi that is so remarkable is that he’s one of those rare — almost like Chekhov — he’s a scientific mind that is a brilliant literary writer.
列维的非凡之处在于，他是一位罕见的人——几乎像契诃夫——他既有科学头脑，又是一位才华横溢的文学作家。
So when you read him on Auschwitz, you’re reading very careful, detailed prose that is heartbreaking.
因此，当你阅读他关于奥斯维辛的文章时，你会读到非常仔细、详细、令人心碎的散文。
He doesn’t appeal to your heart.
他不吸引你的心。
Instead he just tells you in a crystalline way what happened.
相反，他只是以清晰的方式告诉你发生了什么。
Now I’m sure you know Rabbi Jonathan Sacks.
现在我确信你认识拉比乔纳森·萨克斯。
In his new book Essays on Ethics, he wrote the following, and I quote, “The entire burden of the Torah from the beginning of Exodus to the end of Deuteronomy is about what it is to create a free society as opposed to the slavery the Israelites experienced in Egypt.” Agree or disagree?
在他的新书《伦理学随笔》中，他写下了以下内容，我引用一下：“从《出埃及记》开始到《申命记》结束，《托拉》的全部内容就是关于如何创建一个自由社会，而不是以色列人在埃及经历的奴隶制。”同意还是不同意？
Disagree.
不同意。
Why?
为什么？
If you take out “The entire burden of the Torah,” I might agree, but I think that there’s a lot of other things that you could just as easily say the Torah is about.
如果你去掉“托拉的全部负担”，我可能会同意，但我认为还有很多其他的事情你可以很容易地说托拉是关于的。
So I think that it’s too sweeping a statement.
所以我认为这种说法过于笼统。
It’s defensible to say a large swath of the Torah is about this, but not the entire burden.
可以说，《托拉》的大部分内容都是关于这一点的，但并不是全部内容。
Abraham Joshua Heschel.
亚伯拉罕·约书亚·赫歇尔。
What’s his importance?
他的重要性是什么？
There were two thinkers who were most important to me in different ways, although it’s hard to say, partly because of where I grew up, and I think one was Heschel, the other Buber.
有两位思想家以不同的方式对我最重要，尽管很难说，部分原因是我长大的地方，我认为一位是赫舍尔，另一位是布伯。
The reason that Heschel is so important is less for the content of his thought — although sometimes that’s powerful — than the frequently breathtaking prose in which he put it, and it was the first time that I read somebody who could move me with the poetry of his language even though, as I expressed to you earlier, sometimes he’s over-flowery, sometimes he could’ve used a good editor.
赫舍尔如此重要的原因并不在于他的思想内容——尽管有时这很强大——而是在于他所表达的思想内容常常令人叹为观止，这是我第一次读到一个能够用他的语言的诗意打动我的人，尽管正如我之前向你表达的那样，有时他过于华丽，有时他本可以使用一个好的编辑。
But there are some passages where, like in his little book The Sabbath, which everybody who’s interested in Judaism or in God or theology should read, where you think it’s just so extraordinarily beautiful that it’s an illustration of what it talks about.
但有一些段落，比如他的小书《安息日》，每个对犹太教、上帝或神学感兴趣的人都应该读一读，你会认为它是如此的美丽，以至于它是它所谈论的内容的例证。
That is, it is something that touches your soul as it talks about the necessity for your soul to be touched.
也就是说，它是触动你灵魂的东西，因为它讲述了你的灵魂被触动的必要性。
On Hasidic philosophy
论哈西德哲学
So again, I’m an outsider in this dialogue, but say I were thinking of converting to Judaism and I were asking you about Hasidic philosophy.
再说一次，我在这次对话中是一个局外人，但假设我正在考虑皈依犹太教，并且我向你询问了哈西德哲学。
Now in terms of some social connections, I probably would fit better into your congregation than into a Hasidic congregation.
现在就某些社会关系而言，我可能更适合你们的教会，而不是哈西德教会。
But if I ask you, on theological grounds alone, is there a reason why I should be hesitant about Hasidic philosophy?
但如果我问你，仅从神学角度来看，我是否有理由对哈西德哲学犹豫不决？
From the point of view of theology, what do you think is the greatest weakness there, or your biggest difference with it, given how much you like Heschel?
从神学的角度来看，考虑到你有多喜欢赫舍尔，你认为那里最大的弱点是什么，或者说你与它最大的区别是什么？
Well, first of all, I would say Heschel had a Hasidic background, but he became a modern scholar.
嗯，首先，我想说赫舍尔有哈西德派背景，但他成为了一位现代学者。
So there are things in a Hasidic philosophy that he would not subscribe to.
因此，哈西德哲学中的某些东西是他不认同的。
And among other things — this is just among us, right?
除此之外 —— 这只是我们中间的事，对吧？
Look, there is going back to Yehudah ha-Levi and going through the Tanya, and woven through Hasidism, is the question of whether Jews have different souls from non-Jews in some essential way.
听着，回到耶胡达哈利维，穿过塔尼娅，再穿过哈西德主义，问题是犹太人是否在某些本质上与非犹太人有不同的灵魂。
That I don’t think you’d be particularly comfortable with, nor am I.
我认为你对此不会感到特别舒服，我也不是。
It’s what a great American rabbi who passed away not so long away, Harold Schulweis, used to call metaphysical racism.
这就是不久前去世的一位伟大的美国拉比哈罗德·舒尔维斯（Harold Schulweis）所说的形而上学种族主义。
But if it’s correct, I’ll accede to it.
但如果它是正确的，我会接受它。
I’m a reasonable man.
我是一个讲道理的人。
If it’s correct, I would expect that you would as a reasonable man, but I certainly don’t believe it.
如果这是正确的，我希望你作为一个通情达理的人会这么做，但我当然不相信。
The second thing I would say that might give you pause about Hasidism is theurgy which is .
我要说的第二件事可能会让你对哈西德主义犹豫不决，那就是神学。
.
。
.
。
And this is a deep kabbalistic belief.
这是一种深刻的卡巴拉信仰。
This is where, if I can go on a mini rant about tikkun olam — and I say this deliberately at Sixth and I — tikkun olam has nothing to do with saving the whales; it doesn’t.
在这里，如果我可以对 tikkun olam 进行一次简短的咆哮——我在第六和我故意这么说——tikkun olam 与拯救鲸鱼无关；它与拯救鲸鱼无关。事实并非如此。
Tikkun olam is actually not a synonym for social action even though everybody uses it that way.
Tikkun olam 实际上并不是社会行动的同义词，尽管每个人都这样使用它。
Tikkun olam .
蒂昆·奥拉姆。
.
。
.
。
Please, by all means, let the record reflect that there was scattered applause.
请无论如何，让记录反映出零散的掌声。
Tikkun olam is a kabbalistic term — that is, a term from Jewish mysticism, in which you do mitzvoth in the world to fix breaks in creation and in God, OK?
Tikkun olam 是一个卡巴拉术语——也就是说，一个来自犹太神秘主义的术语，在这个术语中，你在世界上进行戒律以修复创造和上帝的断裂，好吗？
And that means that you’re doing tikkun olam when you wrap tefillin in the morning just as much as when you give tzedakah, when you give charity; when you keep kosher just as much as when you — I don’t know — when you’re kind to animals.
这意味着，当你早上包裹 tefillin 时，你就是在做 tikkun olam，就像你施舍 tzedakah 时一样，当你施舍时；当你保持犹太洁食时，就像当你 —— 我不知道 —— 当你善待动物时一样。
Every mitzvah is tikkun olam.
每个成人礼都是 tikkun olam。
Now, the idea that there are breaks in God that human beings can affect is a beautiful idea, but if you’re a rationalist, it’s a hard idea to absorb.
现在，人类可以影响上帝的突破的想法是一个美丽的想法，但如果你是一个理性主义者，那么这个想法很难接受。
But if I defend Hasidic philosophy and I say there’s something wondrous about the world, a kind of immanence, which maybe other traditions have neglected, and it was a resurgence in Judaism, it was part of the Enlightenment.
但如果我捍卫哈西德哲学，我说世界上有一些奇妙的东西，一种内在性，这可能是其他传统所忽视的，它是犹太教的复兴，它是启蒙运动的一部分。
It happened at a time where Judaic philosophy and life was having a lot of problems.
它发生在犹太教哲学和生活出现很多问题的时期。
It was highly modern.
它非常现代。
If I think about a lot of 19th-century or even early 20th-century Jewish writings, that’s arguably the most dynamic tradition, again, at that turning point.
如果我思考许多 19 世纪甚至 20 世纪早期的犹太著作，那么在那个转折点上，这无疑是最具活力的传统。
And in terms of capturing the beauty of existence in a way that reflects how we moderns would call a subjective perspective on that.
以一种反映我们现代人所谓的主观视角的方式捕捉存在之美。
Isn’t that the most profound branch of Judaism, or no?
这不是犹太教最深刻的分支吗？
OK.
好的。
Well, you asked me to critique it.
好吧，你让我批评它。
You didn’t ask me what was good about it.
你没有问我这有什么好处。
Now, you’re asking what was good about it.
现在，你问它有什么好处。
So what I would say, I don’t want to call it the most profound branch of Judaism.
所以我想说的是，我不想称其为犹太教最深刻的分支。
I don’t think that you could say, for example, that the Vilna Gaon, who represented the Mitnagdim — those who opposed Hasidism — certainly was not less profound than the Baal Shem Tov.
例如，我认为你不能说，代表 Mitnagdim（反对哈西德主义的人）的维尔纳·高恩（Vilna Gaon）肯定不比巴力·谢姆·托夫（Baal Shem Tov）深刻。
What I would say is that Hasidism, which is a tradition that I deeply love — in some ways my greatest religious hero was a very offbeat, strange Hasidic rebbe called the Kotzker Rebbe — Hasidism, what it did was, at least from the Baal Shem Tov, is it sought, yes, to restore the sense of God’s immanence in the world, the sense of joy in connecting to God and to other people.
我要说的是哈西德主义，这是我深爱的传统——在某些方面，我最伟大的宗教英雄是一个非常另类、奇怪的哈西德主义雷贝，称为科茨克雷贝——哈西德主义所做的是，至少从巴力谢姆托夫那里，它寻求的是，是的，恢复上帝在世界上的临在感，恢复与上帝和其他人联系的喜悦感。
It expanded the expressions of religious ecstasy in dance and song and also, very powerfully and importantly, in religious stories, Hasidic stories, especially the stories of Rebbe Nachman of Breslov, the most famous example but not the only example by far.
它扩展了舞蹈和歌曲中宗教狂喜的表达，并且非常有力和重要地扩展了宗教故事、哈西德派故事，特别是布雷斯洛夫的雷贝·纳赫曼的故事，这是最著名的例子，但不是迄今为止唯一的例子。
Hasidic stories are an immeasurable contribution to the world treasury of spirit.
哈西德派的故事对世界精神宝库做出了不可估量的贡献。
So all those things absolutely are true.
所以所有这些事情绝对是真的。
On immanence vs transcendence
论内在性与超越性
If we end up elevating immanence over transcendence, do we in some ways neglect Torah study and the special role of Israel too much?
如果我们最终将内在性置于超越性之上，我们是否在某些方面过于忽视了托拉研究和以色列的特殊作用？
So this is a constant back and forth, an argument.
所以这是一个不断的来来回回的争论。
Heschel was criticized for when he wrote about the Sabbath, for calling it a cathedral in time, for not being terrestrial enough in some ways.
赫舍尔在写安息日时受到批评，因为他及时称其为大教堂，在某些方面不够地球化。
And so he wrote a book about Israel called Echo of Eternity.
因此他写了一本关于以色列的书，名为《永恒的回声》。
Yeah, there are those who see God as unutterably far and those who see God as unbearably near.
是的，有人认为神遥不可及，有人认为神近得难以忍受。
And the Talmud and Jewish tradition, and not only Jewish tradition — Christianity bridges that gap, obviously, with the personhood of God; Judaism does not.
塔木德和犹太传统，不仅仅是犹太传统——基督教显然用神的人格弥合了这一鸿沟；犹太教则不然。
Judaism believes that both exist simultaneously.
犹太教认为两者同时存在。
The rabbi say that God is as close as your mouth to your ear.
拉比说，上帝离你的嘴和耳朵有多近。
In other words, God hears what you say as easily as you do, and yet there is no representation of God in this sanctuary.
换句话说，神听你说的话就像你做事一样容易，但在这个圣所里却没有神的代表。
God is not invisible, because that suggests that God has a body but you can’t see it.
上帝并不是看不见的，因为这表明上帝有一个身体，但你看不到它。
It’s like if you put a hat on God, you would see the hat go down the street.
就像如果你给上帝戴上一顶帽子，你会看到这顶帽子走在街上。
God is intangible like love, like justice.
上帝就像爱、正义一样是无形的。
That is, God doesn’t have a physical being, and that makes God transcendent and in some ways incredibly distant.
也就是说，上帝没有物理存在，这使得上帝超越，并且在某些方面令人难以置信的遥远。
And I think that that’s important because what I always say to, especially to high schoolers, when I talk about God — I begin the conversation about God with this: “We’re going to discuss what God is or what God isn’t,” and so on.
我认为这很重要，因为当我谈论上帝时，尤其是对高中生，我总是这样说：“我们将讨论上帝是什么或上帝不是什么，”等等。
In the Jewish tradition, think about .
在犹太传统中，想一想。
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。
.
。
Let’s say they’re fifteen, or adults.
假设他们十五岁，或者成年人。
When you were two years old, could you imagine what an adult is?
当你两岁的时候，你能想象成年人是什么吗？
Not only could you not imagine it, but you couldn’t even imagine what it is that you couldn’t imagine.
不但你无法想象，连你无法想象的事情你也无法想象。
Right?
正确的？
You don’t know what your gaps are when you’re two or three.
当你两三岁的时候，你不知道自己的差距有多大。
Now, God in the Jewish tradition, the distance between God and human beings is infinitely greater than the distance between a two-year-old and a twenty-year-old.
现在，犹太传统中的上帝，上帝与人类之间的距离比两岁和二十岁之间的距离无限大。
So as soon as we say God’s immanence or God’s transcendence, realize that we’re caught in this net of metaphors about something we can’t comprehend.
因此，一旦我们说上帝的内在性或上帝的超越性，就会意识到我们陷入了这个我们无法理解的隐喻之网中。
Is it permissible to play chess on the Sabbath or, if I offer a pawn sacrifice, am I a gambler?
安息日可以下棋吗？或者，如果我献上典当祭品，我是否是一个赌徒？
WOLPE: Yes and no.
沃尔普：是的，也不是。
One day I hope to find out.
我希望有一天能找到答案。
How would you alter or improve rabbinical training?
您将如何改变或改进拉比培训？
I’ve given this a lot of thought.
我对此考虑了很多。
Let me just mention one area.
我只提一个领域。
When I speak to rabbinical students, I tell them all the time that the single most valuable commodity you have as a rabbi .
当我与拉比学生交谈时，我总是告诉他们，作为拉比，你所拥有的最有价值的商品是。
.
。
.
。
you can answer that yourself, and then I’ll tell you what I think: your voice.
你可以自己回答这个问题，然后我会告诉你我的想法：你的声音。
Most people are going to come in contact with you when you speak to them.
当您与大多数人交谈时，大多数人都会与您联系。
Not all of them, but most.
不是全部，而是大多数。
There’ll be more people who come to your services than the number of people at whose bedside you will sit as they die.
前来为您服务的人将会比您在他们临终时坐在床边的人数还要多。
And yet, most rabbis — most people — don’t know how to speak.
然而，大多数拉比 ——“大多数人”—— 不知道如何说话。
That training which is given — we have homiletics classes.
所给予的训练——我们有讲道课。
But the ability to communicate, what words to use, what examples to use, how to train your voice so that people can understand you.
但是沟通的能力，用什么词，用什么例子，如何训练你的声音，让人们能够理解你。
How often have you been in front of speakers who you have to tell them 10 times, “Put the microphone closer please; I can’t hear you.” Right?
您是否经常在演讲者面前告诉他们 10 次：“请把麦克风靠近一点；我听不到你说话。”正确的？
That ability is woefully underrepresented, I think, in the rabbinic community, and it’s very much to our detriment.
我认为，在拉比社区中，这种能力的代表性严重不足，这对我们非常不利。
And yet, most rabbis — most people — don’t know how to speak.
然而，大多数拉比 ——“大多数人”—— 不知道如何说话。
That training which is given — we have homiletics classes.
所给予的训练——我们有讲道课。
But the ability to communicate, what words to use, what examples to use, how to train your voice so that people can understand you…That ability is woefully underrepresented, I think, in the rabbinic community, and it’s very much to our detriment.
但是沟通的能力，使用什么词语，使用什么例子，如何训练你的声音以便人们能够理解你……我认为，在拉比社区中，这种能力严重不足，这对我们非常不利。
On the evolution of Judaism and Civilization
论犹太教与文明的演变
I’ve thought about social media quite a bit and written on them, and I have two questions relating social media to Judaism.
我对社交媒体进行了很多思考并撰写了相关文章，我有两个关于社交媒体与犹太教的问题。
If you think about the tradition of the Torah, the Torah is so much itself commentary on the Torah.
如果你考虑一下《托拉》的传统，《托拉》本身就是对《托拉》的评论。
And there’s Mishnah and Talmud.
还有密西拿和塔木德。
Everything’s commentary upon commentary upon commentary.
一切都是评论接着评论。
But there’s something about social media that seems to act to strip away context, and people who write for mainstream media will tell you this: “Well, I wrote an article that ended up on Facebook in a very different setting than how I intended it to be read.” And you can say all you want — all the hyperlinks are there, but people don’t click through.
但社交媒体似乎会剥夺背景信息，为主流媒体撰稿的人会告诉你：“好吧，我写了一篇文章，最终出现在 Facebook 上的环境与我预期的阅读方式截然不同。”你可以说你想要的一切 ——所有的超链接都在那里，但人们不点击。
What do you think is the intellectual future of a belief system based on commentary on commentary on commentary, now injected into a world with this technology that so strips away context and just gives you some bald statement of something?
你认为基于对评论的评论的信仰体系的智力未来是什么？现在，这种技术被注入到一个世界中，这种技术剥夺了背景，只给你一些关于某事的赤裸裸的陈述？
I think that Judaism has the same problem that any thick civilization has in a world in which, as you say, context is stripped away.
我认为犹太教与任何厚重的文明都存在同样的问题，正如你所说，在这个世界中，背景被剥夺了。
And not only is context stripped away, but attention to any one thing is scanter and less than it used to be.
不仅上下文被剥夺了，而且对任何一件事的关注也比以前更少了。
So, for example, a lot of Jewish commentary is based on your recognizing the reference that I make.
例如，许多犹太评论都是基于您对我所做参考的认可。
Who recognizes references anymore?
谁还能认出参考文献？
Because people don’t spend years studying books.
因为人们不会花费数年时间学习书籍。
The optimistic take on that is that the availability with ease of the vast libraries of Jewish learning at your fingertips will create a more conversant community.
乐观的看法是，触手可及的大型犹太学习图书馆将创建一个更加熟悉的社区。
And in some ways I think that has happened.
从某些方面来说，我认为这已经发生了。
The negative is that Jewish culture will get thinner and thinner, and Judaism, as you said, depends on a very deep and thick culture.
负面的是，犹太文化会越来越淡薄，而犹太教，正如你所说，依赖于非常深厚和厚重的文化。
If I look at the history of the arts in other areas, I see a tendency for centralization of the past.
如果我看看其他领域的艺术史，我会看到过去的集中化趋势。
So I think today, actually, many more people read Shakespeare than they did 30 years ago.
所以我认为今天读莎士比亚的人实际上比 30 年前多得多。
But older plays and fiction are in general less read.
但较老的戏剧和小说一般读得较少。
More people read Jane Austen, but the second-tier authors from that time are less read.
阅读简·奥斯汀的人越来越多，但那个时期的二流作家却很少有人读。
Maybe from the 1960s it will be the Beatles, but the Byrds will fall away.
也许从 20 世纪 60 年代开始，披头士乐队就会出现，但 Byrds 将会消失。
Whatever.
任何。
Do you see that happening with Jewish philosophy and with the Hebrew Bible?
您是否看到犹太哲学和希伯来圣经中发生了这种情况？
There’s a centralization of what people know and a falling away of what superficially appears to be less important.
人们所知道的东西集中起来，而表面上看起来不那么重要的东西则逐渐消失。
I think what you’re describing is something that is a normal historical process.
我认为你所描述的是一个正常的历史过程。
The commentary that we have is a small fraction of the commentaries that were written.
我们拥有的评论只是已撰写评论的一小部分。
There were always people diving into obscurity.
总有人陷入默默无闻的境地。
And people who wrote, and their books — like Hume said — his book was stillborn from the press.
那些写作的人和他们的书——就像休谟所说的——他的书在媒体上胎死腹中。
There were always such people.
总是有这样的人。
And you never know what’s going to survive.
你永远不知道什么会幸存。
So I have no idea who from the 20th century, for example, will survive.
所以我不知道 20 世纪的谁会幸存下来。
There’s a sense in which, I think .
我认为，从某种意义上说。
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。
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。
when they say history’s the final judge, the final judgment is never written because authors are being revived, they’re being rediscovered.
当他们说历史是最终的审判者时，最终的审判永远不会被写下来，因为作者正在被复活，他们正在被重新发现。
And the same thing is true with certain commentaries and books and ideas.
某些评论、书籍和想法也是如此。
So, as long as they are available and accessible, and in this, the Internet is an invaluable addition to the continuity of learning.
因此，只要它们可用并且可访问，在这一点上，互联网对于学习的连续性来说是一个无价的补充。
Somebody will be able, in 500 years, to rediscover a book that we may think is gone forever, and suddenly it will live again.
500年后，有人将能够重新发现一本我们可能认为已经永远消失的书，突然间它又复活了。
I think when they say ‘history’s the final judge,’ that the final judgment is never written because authors are being revived, they’re being rediscovered.
我认为当他们说“历史是最终的审判者”时，最终的审判永远不会被写下来，因为作家正在被复活，他们正在被重新发现。
I worry sometimes that electronic media won’t have the durability of good old paper.
有时我担心电子媒体不具备优质旧纸张的耐用性。
There are books centuries old you can still read.
有些书已有数百年历史，您仍然可以阅读。
On attrition rates between American and Canadian Jews
关于美国和加拿大犹太人之间的流失率
I have two questions from readers.
我有两个读者问题。
This is a blog reader of mine: “Why do so many American Jews leave Judaism when, say, Canadian Jews don’t?”
这是我的博客读者：“为什么这么多美国犹太人离开犹太教，而加拿大犹太人却没有？”
I’m not sure about the statistics of that, and I’ve spoken up in Canada a few times, and it’s not as though they’re not plagued with many of the same problems, although maybe they’re a little bit, in this sense, behind the assimilation rate of American Jews.
我不确定这方面的统计数据，而且我在加拿大说过几次话，他们并不是没有受到许多相同问题的困扰，尽管从这个意义上说，他们可能有点落后于美国犹太人的同化率。
But I think that the reason that American Jews leave Judaism is — some of it is very clear.
但我认为美国犹太人离开犹太教的原因是“有些是非常清楚的”。
First of all, it’s what Irving Kristol used to say.
首先，这是欧文·克里斯托尔曾经说过的。
He used to say, “The complaint that the Jews made about the non-Jews used to be that they wanted to kill us and now it’s that they want to marry us.”
他曾经说过：“犹太人对非犹太人的抱怨过去是他们想杀死我们，现在是他们想与我们结婚。”
When you say to a child, “I want you to go to the best schools, live in the best neighborhoods, work in the best firms, but don’t fall in love,” that’s too nuanced a message.
当你对孩子说：“我希望你去最好的学校，住在最好的社区，在最好的公司工作，但不要坠入爱河”，这样的信息太微妙了。
So the degree to which neighborhoods were coherent and unvarying and constant was the degree to which there was a great deal of inmarriage and communal raising of children and continuity of heritage, and that’s still true in some Jewish communities and more true in Canada because there’s less mobility.
因此，社区的连贯性、不变性和持续性的程度就是大量通婚、共同抚养孩子和遗产连续性的程度，这在一些犹太社区仍然如此，在加拿大更是如此，因为流动性较少。
But in an age of mobility where people don’t have extended families and where intermarriage rates are what you would expect from a tiny minority in a big majority, where there’s a lot of cultural sharing, it’s not surprising that a countercultural tradition, which demands, as you said, knowledge and is reliant, to a great extent, on another language, which Americans won’t do unless, I guess, it’s Chinese these days.
但在一个流动性时代，人们没有大家庭，异族通婚率只是极少数人与大多数人之间的比例，文化上有很多共享，这就不足为奇了，反主流文化的传统，正如你所说，需要知识，并且在很大程度上依赖另一种语言，而美国人不会这样做，除非现在是中文。
So the inability of Americans, for example, American Jews, to learn Hebrew is an intellectual scandal in one way because Judaism really does have a sacred language.
因此，美国人（例如美国犹太人）无法学习希伯来语在某种程度上是一个智力丑闻，因为犹太教确实有一种神圣的语言。
In another way, I suppose it’s expected because that’s what Americans are like.
从另一方面来说，我认为这是意料之中的，因为美国人就是这样的。
It’s not a shock, even though it’s a great sadness, and I don’t think that it is .
这并不令人震惊，尽管这是一种巨大的悲伤，而且我认为并非如此。
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。
.
。
The Jewish tendency is to say, “Well, Judaism has not been presented this way, or we haven’t given it that twist, or the leaders haven’t done this.” But I think that that’s a function of standing against a tide, and I don’t know what would reverse that tide, but it’s a difficult thing.
犹太人的倾向是说，“好吧，犹太教并没有以这种方式呈现，或者我们没有给它那种扭曲，或者领导人没有这样做。”但我认为这是逆流而上的功能，我不知道什么会扭转这种潮流，但这是一件困难的事情。
On believing in God
关于相信上帝
Second reader question: “Do I have to believe in God?”
第二个读者问题：“我必须相信上帝吗？”
Do you, Tyler?
你是吗，泰勒？
No, no, the reader.
不，不，读者。
Well, what’s the end of that sentence?
那么，这句话的结尾是什么？
Do I have to believe in God in order to .
我必须相信上帝才能做到吗？
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。
.
。
That’s it.
就是这样。
“Do I have to believe in God?”
“我必须相信上帝吗？”
Well, no, obviously not.
嗯，不，显然不是。
Since, as you know, I’ve had a whole series of debates with atheists, obviously there are people who don’t, and I didn’t myself for a long time.
正如你所知，我与无神论者进行了一系列的辩论，显然有人不同意，我自己也很长一段时间不同意。
If you’re asking, “Do I have to believe in God to be a Jew?”
如果你问：“我必须相信上帝才能成为犹太人吗？”
I think that’s what was implied.
我想这就是暗示的意思。
The answer clearly is no. You don’t have to believe in God to be a Jew.
答案显然是否定的。你不必相信上帝才能成为犹太人。
That’s not definitional.
这不是定义性的。
It’s not definitional.
这不是定义性的。
A simple no.
一个简单的不。
OK.
好的。
All right then, I won’t go on from there.
好吧，我不会从那里继续下去。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
OK.
好的。
All of these conversations — there’s a segment in the middle called “overrated or underrated.”
所有这些对话 —— 中间有一个部分称为“被高估或低估”。
Yes, I know.
是的，我知道。
And I mention something to you.
我向你提一件事。
Feel free to pass.
随意通过。
The goal is not that you have to offend anyone.
目标不是你必须得罪任何人。
But the first on the list, overrated or underrated: Los Angeles as a city?
但名单上的第一个，被高估或低估：洛杉矶作为一个城市？
In one way, overrated, and in another, underrated.
In one way, overrated, and in another, underrated.
Please explain.
请解释一下。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
It’s overrated in the degree to which people think of it as a dream factory, as an ideal place in the world, as a cloud city.
人们对它的评价过高，认为它是一个梦想工厂，一个世界上的理想之地，一个云城市。
But it’s underrated in two ways: first of all, in its tremendous natural beauty, which, if you haven’t been there, really, it’s tremendously beautiful.
但它在两个方面被低估了：首先，它巨大的自然美景，如果你没有去过那里，真的，它非常美丽。
They have mountains in the middle of the city.
他们在城市中心有山。
Coming from Philadelphia, I didn’t know what they were doing there.
来自费城，我不知道他们在那里做什么。
And it is much more interesting, deep, ramified, filled with all sorts of intellectual, cultural activity than people on the East would think.
它比东方人想象的更有趣、更深刻、更分支，充满了各种各样的智力、文化活动。
And to dismiss a city .
并解散一座城。
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。
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。
look, one out of every ten people in America lives in California; to dismiss them all as fruits, nuts, and flakes is silly.
瞧，美国十分之一的人住在加利福尼亚州；将它们全部视为水果、坚果和薄片是愚蠢的。
The Israeli television show Srugim?
以色列电视节目 Srugim？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Tell us why.
告诉我们原因。
More people should watch Srugim.
More people should watch Srugim.
Why is it special?
为什么它很特别？
Because it tells you about the life of a very important segment of Israeli population, which are .
因为它告诉您以色列人口中非常重要的一部分的生活，他们是。
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。
.
。
Srugim means “knitted,” “knitted kippot.” That is Modern Orthodox, which is a very important, straddling population in modern Israel, and most American Jews don’t know about it, and it will teach you.
Srugim 的意思是“针织”、“针织 kippot”。这就是现代东正教，在现代以色列是一个非常重要的、跨界的群体，大多数美国犹太人都不知道这一点，但它会教给你。
One thing I liked so much about the show is how it maintains erotic tension.
我非常喜欢这个节目的一件事是它如何保持色情张力。
It’s a great problem from the 20th century onwards.
这是20世纪以来的一个大问题。
If you have a romantic dilemma, it’s not the 19th century.
如果你有浪漫的困境，那现在不是 19 世纪。
“Oh, why don’t they just get divorced?” or “Why don’t they just sleep together?” or “Why don’t they just whatever?” And Srugim, you have a setting where that tension is maintained.
“哦，那他们为什么不离婚呢？” or “Why don’t they just sleep together?”或者“他们为什么不随便做点什么？” Srugim，你有一个维持紧张气氛的环境。
That’s why, in a beautiful essay, although slightly problematic, many years ago Trilling said that Lolita was the modern novel of love.
这就是为什么多年前特里林在一篇美丽的文章中说《洛丽塔》是一部现代爱情小说，虽然有点问题。
The reason is, he said, all real love stories require an obstacle.
他说，原因是所有真正的爱情故事都需要一个障碍。
And usually, it was adultery or something like that.
通常，这是通奸或类似的事情。
He says, when all barriers have been leveled, the only obstacle left is an adult may not touch a child.
He says, when all barriers have been leveled, the only obstacle left is an adult may not touch a child.
It was part of Nabokov’s genius to make that into a love story, which is to some extent what Lolita is.
将其写成爱情故事是纳博科夫天才的一部分，在某种程度上，《洛丽塔》就是如此。
Even though at the same time, of course, you feel revolted by the reality of what it’s about.
当然，尽管与此同时，你对它的现实感到反感。
But that’s a very extreme way of going back to what you said, which is that religious stories can still do that because there are rules.
但这是一种非常极端的方式，回到你所说的，宗教故事仍然可以做到这一点，因为有规则。
In a ruleless society, love stories have no erotic tension, no barrier, nothing to vault over.
在一个无规则的社会里，爱情故事没有色情张力，没有障碍，没有什么可以跨越的。
The Iran nuclear deal, overrated or underrated?
伊朗核协议被高估还是被低估？
Way overrated, and I wish it hadn’t .
Way overrated, and I wish it hadn’t .
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。
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。
I think that it will prove a mistake, I think a bad mistake.
我认为这将证明是一个错误，我认为这是一个严重的错误。
Having said that, I also want to say what I said when I spoke against it.
Having said that, I also want to say what I said when I spoke against it.
I want to say one other thing, though, which is — when the Iran nuclear deal came out, all of a sudden, people who had never been, who knew nothing about nuclear physics, and I include myself, except that they watched The Simpsons .
不过，我想说另一件事，那就是，当伊朗核协议出台时，突然之间，那些从未去过的人，对核物理一无所知的人，包括我自己，除了他们看了《辛普森一家》之外。
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We’re pronouncing on whether it was a good idea or not.
我们正在讨论这是否是一个好主意。
I can’t speak in those words, but I think that any deal — first of all, knowing something about Iranian culture because so much of my congregation is Iranian, and any deal where the American side didn’t leave the table even once is to me, by definition, a bad deal.
我不能用这些话说话，但我认为任何协议——首先要了解一些伊朗文化，因为我的会众中有很多人是伊朗人，而任何美国方面一次都没有离开谈判桌的协议对我来说，从定义上来说，都是一个糟糕的协议。
By definition.
根据定义。
I hope to God that I’m wrong, but I think overrated.
I hope to God that I’m wrong, but I think overrated.
On Islam’s similarity to Judaism
论伊斯兰教与犹太教的相似性
Speaking of Islam, what is it that’s especially beautiful in Islam?
说到伊斯兰教，伊斯兰教有什么特别美丽的地方呢？
Well, first of all, I think that in a lot of ways, Islam shares more with Judaism than Christianity does.
嗯，首先，我认为在很多方面，伊斯兰教与犹太教的共同点比基督教更多。
First of all, it’s a religion of the transcendence of God.
首先，它是一种超越上帝的宗教。
It’s a religion of law and commentary.
这是一种法律和评论的宗教。
And I have a theory for why that is, and Christianity isn’t; why Judaism and Islam are, if you want to hear the theory.
And I have a theory for why that is, and Christianity isn’t;如果你想听听理论的话，为什么是犹太教和伊斯兰教。
Sure.
当然。
Let’s hear the theory.
我们来听听理论。
OK.
好的。
Here’s my theory.
这是我的理论。
My theory is that it’s because Christianity grew up in the Roman Empire, so the laws were taken care of.
My theory is that it’s because Christianity grew up in the Roman Empire, so the laws were taken care of.
But Moses and Muhammad had to create a people in the desert.
但摩西和穆罕默德必须在沙漠中创造一个民族。
So you needed civil law as well as criminal law.
所以你需要民法和刑法。
And the other thing I think that is beautiful about Islam, although today in some ways very scary about Islam, is the enormous power that it has for large populations, who one day know very little about it and yet the next day feel tremendous devotion to it, something that can — some belief system that can do that — that’s worth paying attention to on its own terms, not just from the outside.
我认为伊斯兰教的另一优点是，尽管今天在某些方面对伊斯兰教来说非常可怕，但它对大量人口具有巨大的力量，他们有一天对伊斯兰教知之甚少，但第二天却对伊斯兰教产生了巨大的忠诚，这种东西可以——“某种可以做到这一点的信仰体系”——值得从其本身的角度关注，而不仅仅是从外部。
If you think of the portrayal of David, the David story in the Koran, and you compare it to that in the Hebrew Bible, do you think that reflects something that later becomes troubling, or do you just think it’s a rewrite?
如果你想到《古兰经》中对大卫的描绘，即《古兰经》中的大卫故事，并将其与希伯来圣经中的故事进行比较，你是否认为这反映了后来变得令人不安的事情，或者你只是认为这是重写？
I think, well, this is part of a much larger question.
I think, well, this is part of a much larger question.
There are a lot of differences between the Koran and the Hebrew Bible.
There are a lot of differences between the Koran and the Hebrew Bible.
David is one thing.
大卫是一回事。
The Koran is — and this you should excuse me, for the home team, I like Judaism much better — the Koran is very unwilling to allow any sinfulness in its heroes.
《古兰经》是 ——这个你应该原谅我，对于主队来说，我更喜欢犹太教 ——《古兰经》非常不愿意允许英雄有任何罪恶。
He’s much more heroic, David; as is Moses.
大卫，他更加英勇。就像摩西一样。
Much more, as is Moses, as is everyone in the story.
更重要的是，就像摩西一样，就像故事中的每个人一样。
Never so hesitant.
从来没有这么犹豫过。
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
I like the idea of flawed heroes.
我喜欢有缺陷的英雄的想法。
I like the notion that there isn’t this whitewashing.
I like the notion that there isn’t this whitewashing.
And I feel the Quran does that.
我觉得《古兰经》就是这么做的。
But obviously, I’m not a Muslim.
但显然，我不是穆斯林。
When you look at Michelangelo’s David statue in Florence, do you feel that’s your David, or is that a Christian David being portrayed?
When you look at Michelangelo’s David statue in Florence, do you feel that’s your David, or is that a Christian David being portrayed?
And if so, what’s the difference?
如果是这样，有什么区别？
Here’s what I would say.
这就是我要说的。
He’s portraying the Hebrew David, but the idea of having such a magnificent David statue is a Christian idea.
他描绘的是希伯来大卫，但拥有如此宏伟的大卫雕像的想法是基督教的想法。
So if I could say it that way.
So if I could say it that way.
Wow.
哇。
Very good answer.
非常好的答案。
On democracy and religion
论民主与宗教
On Islam, if we look at Islamic countries in the world today, we’ve all noticed in different ways — this is a generalization, but it seems to me a true generalization — their ability to be stable democracies seems problematic, at least right now.
关于伊斯兰教，如果我们看看当今世界上的伊斯兰国家，我们都会以不同的方式注意到 ——“这是一个概括，但在我看来这是一个真正的概括”——“他们成为稳定民主国家的能力似乎存在问题，至少现在是这样。
And I’m not just talking about the Middle East.
And I’m not just talking about the Middle East.
If you look at places like Bangladesh, Malaysia, other parts, they’re somewhat democratic, but they don’t seem to mature into “normal democracies,” the way, say, South Korea and Taiwan have.
如果你看看孟加拉国、马来西亚和其他地区，他们在某种程度上是民主的，但他们似乎并没有像韩国和台湾那样成熟为“正常的民主国家”。
And of course much of the Middle East: they’re not close to being democracies.
And of course much of the Middle East: they’re not close to being democracies.
And why, at the deepest level, you could explain — as a matter of intellect, theology, metaphysics — has the doctrine of the religion ended up correlated with this result?
为什么在最深层次上，你可以解释————作为智力、神学、形而上学的问题————宗教教义最终与这个结果相关吗？
If I were wise, I would say that I’m neither an expert in Islam nor in politics.
If I were wise, I would say that I’m neither an expert in Islam nor in politics.
And therefore, I would beg off this question, but I’m not going to.
And therefore, I would beg off this question, but I’m not going to.
Because I think it is incumbent, it is an intellectual necessity of the time, since I think there is no question that jihadist Islam is right now as great a threat, I don’t want to say the greatest —
因为我认为这是义不容辞的，这是当时的理智必要性，因为我认为毫无疑问，伊斯兰圣战现在是一个巨大的威胁，我不想说最大的——
OK, but not the extreme; I’m talking about —
好吧，但不是极端；我说的是——
Right, but I’m just saying.
是的，但我只是说说而已。
So there is a necessity, I’m saying, to put some intellectual pressure on the question of why it isn’t creating societies of healthier political climates.
因此，我想说的是，有必要对为什么它没有创造出更健康政治气候的社会的问题施加一些智力压力。
I would say, if I had to pick one thing that is at the heart of Islam that is antidemocratic, it is the concept that’s very deep — that is, in the very name of the religion — of submission.
我想说，如果我必须选择伊斯兰教核心的一件事是反民主的，那就是非常深刻的概念——“也就是说，以宗教的名义”——“服从”。
Because a population that is trained essentially to submit is a population that will create authoritarians.
因为那些本质上被训练成服从的人群将会创造独裁者。
And so I think that the recalcitrants — when you think about Israel, the founders of Israel, none of them came from democracies.
因此，我认为那些顽固分子——当你想到以色列、以色列的创始人时，他们中没有一个来自民主国家。
They came from Russia, from Eastern Europe; they came from the Levant; they didn’t know democracy, and yet why did they create a democracy?
They came from Russia, from Eastern Europe; they came from the Levant; they didn’t know democracy, and yet why did they create a democracy?
Because they all argued with each other.
Because they all argued with each other.
Seriously, they all did!
说真的，他们都做到了！
That’s like my friend Joseph Epstein has a great line.
就像我的朋友约瑟夫·爱泼斯坦有一句很棒的台词一样。
He said, “Jews don’t listen.
他说：“犹太人不听。
They wait.”
他们等待。”
And that idea, the disputatious culture of the Talmud and so on, it’s good for democracy, and I think the culture of submission can be corrosive to it.
这个想法，塔木德等有争议的文化，对民主有好处，但我认为服从文化可能会腐蚀它。
When you think about Israel, the founders of Israel, none of them came from democracies.
当你想到以色列，以色列的创始人时，他们都不是来自民主国家。
They came from Russia, from Eastern Europe; they came from the Levant; they didn’t know democracy, and yet why did they create a democracy?
They came from Russia, from Eastern Europe; they came from the Levant;他们不知道民主，但他们为什么要创造民主？
Because they all argued with each other.
Because they all argued with each other.
Some questions about Israel, if I may?
Some questions about Israel, if I may?
Sure.
当然。
On secular reasons to live in Israel
On secular reasons to live in Israel
Let’s say you’re talking to someone who is Jewish and who is pro-Israel in a broad sense and would consider themselves as Zionist.
假设您正在与一个犹太人交谈，他在广义上支持以色列，并认为自己是犹太复国主义者。
But they don’t have a deep theological belief in the content of the Torah or the Hebrew Bible.
但他们对托拉或希伯来圣经的内容没有深刻的神学信仰。
They may not even believe in God.
他们甚至可能不相信上帝。
And they’re posing the question, “Well, should I live in Israel or should I live, say, in the United States, Canada, other places?” And they’re feeling some despair.
他们提出这样的问题：“那么，我应该住在以色列，还是应该住在美国、加拿大或其他地方？” And they’re feeling some despair.
Israel is a wonderful country — I’ve been several times myself.
以色列是一个美妙的国家 —— 我自己也去过好几次。
They might perceive higher danger; I’m not even sure that’s correct.
They might perceive higher danger; I’m not even sure that’s correct.
There’s a somewhat lower standard of living.
There’s a somewhat lower standard of living.
And if they ask you, without invoking theology — which won’t persuade them — what’s the best case for choosing Israel rather than leaving or not going at all?
如果他们在不援引神学的情况下问你——这不会说服他们——选择以色列而不是离开或根本不去的最佳情况是什么？
What would you say?
你会说什么？
I think probably the best non-theological case for choosing Israel is that you would be part of an astonishing experiment — that is, the revival of a people in its land after thousands of years, in an attempt to create something that is important and lasting and a legacy that involves tradition but is not enslaved to it.
我认为选择以色列的最佳非神学案例可能是，你将成为一个令人惊讶的实验的一部分——也就是说，数千年后，一个民族在其土地上复兴，试图创造一些重要而持久的东西，以及一种涉及传统但不被传统奴役的遗产。
And if you want to see where your people, since this is a Jew who’s asking, where your people is determining its own destiny in a world that too often determined its destiny for it, the only place where that is happening in a full range of areas is in Israel.
如果你想看看你的人民在哪里，因为这是一个犹太人在问，你的人民在一个经常决定其命运的世界中在哪里决定自己的命运，那么唯一在各个领域发生这种情况的地方就是以色列。
Say it’s an American Jew and here she says to you, “Well, maybe that’s begging the question.
假设这是一位美国犹太人，她在这里对你说：“好吧，也许这是在回避问题。
Is Israel my people or America my people?”
以色列是我的人民还是美国是我的人民？”
And I would say that’s too binary a question.
我想说这个问题太二元化了。
As an American Jew, I don’t feel like I have to say this one is and that one isn’t.
作为一名美国犹太人，我觉得我不必说这个是那个不是。
What is binary for the most part I guess, is where you live.
我想，二进制的大部分内容是你居住的地方。
You have to live either here or there.
你必须住在这里或那里。
So it depends what adventure you choose to be a part of.
所以这取决于你选择参加什么冒险。
But that’s the adventure of Israel.
但这就是以色列的冒险。
On West Bank settlements and game theory
关于西岸定居点和博弈论
Now, a question on the settlements, which are a hot issue now.
现在，关于定居点的问题，这是现在的热点问题。
Thanks a lot.
多谢。
I know this is very controversial.
我知道这是非常有争议的。
Now, I myself am a natural-born contrarian.
现在，我自己就是一个天生的逆向投资者。
So if I hear a lot of people criticizing something, my natural instinct is to try to defend it.
因此，如果我听到很多人批评某件事，我的本能反应就是试图捍卫它。
So I’m going to try to lay out — I’m an economist, I’ve studied game theory — what might be a case from an Israeli nationalist perspective for the settlements and I don’t want you to agree or disagree.
因此，我将尝试阐述 —— 我是一名经济学家，我研究过博弈论 —— 从以色列民族主义的角度来看，定居点可能会出现什么情况，我不希望你同意或不同意。
I just want you to tell me if I have understood the case correctly or not.
我只是想让你告诉我我对这个案子的理解是否正确。
OK.
好的。
OK.
好的。
So if I’m an Israeli nationalist, I would think a few things.
因此，如果我是一名以色列民族主义者，我会思考一些事情。
I would think there’s a danger of a future technology coming along, maybe rocket technology, that would have the potential, say, to shut down Tel Aviv airport.
我认为未来的技术存在危险，也许是火箭技术，它有可能关闭特拉维夫机场。
If Iran or some other hostile country got nuclear weapons, there could be a possible nuclear umbrella used to protect terrorist forays into Israel.
如果伊朗或其他一些敌对国家拥有核武器，可能会有一个核保护伞来保护恐怖分子入侵以色列。
And that there’s some future game coming where one needs a kind of chip or pushback or bargaining power or leverage.
未来会有一些游戏需要某种筹码、阻力、讨价还价能力或杠杆作用。
And furthermore on top of that, one always wants to keep an option over the notion that yes, there would be a greater Israel, but a lot of the current Palestinians would become what are now called Israeli Arabs at a higher standard of living and possibly higher level of political liberties, and maybe that wouldn’t be all of what are now the territories, but that maintaining an option on that, relative to what else might possibly happen, which could be terrible.
此外，最重要的是，人们总是想对这样一种观念保留一种选择：是的，将会有一个更大的以色列，但目前的许多巴勒斯坦人将成为现在所谓的以色列阿拉伯人，生活水平更高，政治自由水平可能更高，也许这不是现在领土的全部，但相对于其他可能发生的情况，保留这种选择可能是可怕的。
Who knows?
谁知道？
That is itself valuable and that to have an action on each of those two margins actually requires that settlements continue.
这本身就是有价值的，要在这两个边际上采取行动实际上需要继续进行和解。
Now again, I’m not asking you to agree or disagree, but have I understood the case?
现在再说一遍，我不是要求你同意或不同意，而是我理解这个案子了吗？
Naftali Bennett would be proud of you.
纳夫塔利·贝内特会为你感到骄傲。
Yes, you have understood the case.
是的，你已经了解了这个案例。
OK.
好的。
Now, just from an Israeli nationalist perspective, would you agree with that case?
现在，仅从以色列民族主义的角度来看，您同意这种说法吗？
I would agree with parts of that case.
我同意该案例的部分内容。
But which parts not?
但哪些部分不是？
What I would say is that the problem with the case is it doesn’t take into account two parts of the calculus that are important pieces of this.
我想说的是，这个案例的问题是它没有考虑微积分的两个重要部分。
One is that it is an element of security to allow your neighbors to feel a certain way about their neighbors.
一是让你的邻居对他们的邻居有某种感觉是安全的一个要素。
And therefore, if you build in total disregard of the people in the neighborhood, that’s not going to encourage goodwill.
因此，如果你的建设完全无视附近的人们，那不会鼓励善意。
That’s the first part of the case that I would urge.
这是我要强调的案例的第一部分。
And, by the way, this works in extending circles around the world that Israel is not an island, and the opinion of the world also matters in this.
顺便说一句，这在世界范围内扩大了以色列不是一个岛屿的范围，世界的看法在这方面也很重要。
And the second part of the case is that the idea that ultimately the population around you will be reconciled to this in one way or another — in other words the endgame — doesn’t work for me.
这个案例的第二部分是，你周围的人最终会以某种方式接受这一点——换句话说，最终的结局——对我来说是行不通的。
I don’t think that eventually the Palestinians will be absorbed into Israel and will feel OK about it if their standard of living is high enough or .
我不认为巴勒斯坦人最终会被以色列吸收，如果他们的生活水平足够高或者……他们不会对此感到满意。
.
。
.
。
And of course, if they’re enfranchised, then it’s very hard to imagine a Jewish state.
当然，如果他们获得了选举权，那么就很难想象一个犹太国家。
But there are other parts of the case that I absolutely subscribe to.
但这个案子的其他部分我绝对同意。
And let’s say you took a cosmopolitan perspective: so imagine you’re not Jewish, never been to Israel.
假设您采取了国际化的视角：想象一下您不是犹太人，也从未去过以色列。
You’re some guy in Western Australia, and Israelis, Palestinians are just names on a map to you, and you’re weighting everyone’s interests and desires equally.
你是西澳大利亚人，以色列人、巴勒斯坦人对你来说只是地图上的名字，你平等地衡量每个人的利益和愿望。
How then does the case look to you for the settlements?
那么您认为此案的和解如何？
Well, first of all, the other part of the case: I want to say that there are settlements and there are settlements.
嗯，首先来说一下案件的另一部分：我想说的是，有和解，有和解。
And the word “settlements” is way too broad, way too broad because there are settlements that everybody knows with a nod and a wink, they’re always going to be Israel, they were always going to be Israel.
“定居点”这个词太宽泛了，太宽泛了，因为有些定居点是每个人都点头眨眼就知道的，它们永远是以色列，它们永远是以色列。
In any negotiation, they’re going to be Israel, and they are still called settlements, but they’re not settlements.
在任何谈判中，他们都将是以色列，他们仍然被称为定居点，但他们不是定居点。
And then there are outposts in the middle of yenevelt, at the middle of another world, where there are six guys and a goat and that’s also called a settlement.
然后在耶内维尔特的中部有前哨基地，在另一个世界的中部，那里有六个人和一只山羊，这也被称为定居点。
I think that the case would appear like most such cases, like Kashmir, like Nagorno-Karabakh, as mixed, as both sides have very powerful arguments.
I think that the case would appear like most such cases, like Kashmir, like Nagorno-Karabakh, as mixed, as both sides have very powerful arguments.
And the only people I suspect, along with you, the only people whose arguments I bridle at automatically are people who don’t see that there’s another side here.
我唯一怀疑的人，和你一样，唯一我自然而然地对他们的论点感到愤怒的人是那些看不到这里还有另一面的人。
This is the analogy I used to give.
这是我以前打过的比喻。
It’s now a little bit out of date, but I used to say, what would happen .
现在有点过时了，但我以前说过，会发生什么。
.
。
.
。
think of Hamas in Gaza.
想想加沙的哈马斯。
What would happen if Khomeini had taken over Texas?
如果霍梅尼接管德克萨斯州会发生什么？
How do you think the United States would react?
您认为美国会如何反应？
You think they would say, “Well, look, we should negotiate?” This is a serious existential issue.
你认为他们会说，“好吧，看，我们应该谈判？”这是一个严重的存在问题。
On the other hand, you’re not dealing with an alien body that has come and taken over your land, and so I think that they would feel like this was a mixed and complicated issue, and neither side can be painted with too black a brush.
另一方面，你面对的并不是一个来占领你的土地的外星人，所以我认为他们会觉得这是一个复杂而复杂的问题，任何一方都不能用太黑的画笔来描绘。
I am agnostic on the question, if you’re wondering.
如果你想知道的话，我对这个问题持不可知论。
On political disengagement and income inequality in Israel
关于以色列的政治脱离和收入不平等
What is the underobserved, undernoted trend in contemporary Israel of importance?
当代以色列有哪些未被注意到、未被注意到的重要趋势？
I would say probably what strikes me when I visit Israel is that there is an increasing dissatisfaction and disaffection with all political life and activity that is dangerous for the country because the left wing is virtually declawed.
我想说，当我访问以色列时，给我留下深刻印象的是，人们对所有政治生活和活动的不满和不满日益增加，这对国家来说是危险的，因为左翼实际上已经被除爪了。
The religious right is not really a political entity.
宗教权利并不是真正的政治实体。
They negate the political legitimacy of the country even as they support right-wing policies.
他们在支持右翼政策的同时，也否定了国家的政治合法性。
And so you’re raising a generation that I think doesn’t feel —
所以你正在抚养一代人，我认为他们不会感觉到——
And where does that disengagement come from?
这种脱离从何而来？
An endless struggle over the same issues that never seems to change and never seems to go away and seems to get worse.
对同样问题的无休止的斗争似乎永远不会改变，永远不会消失，而且似乎会变得更糟。
How much do you think income inequality is a driving issue in Israel today?
您认为收入不平等在多大程度上是以色列当今的一个主要问题？
You said an unnoticed, and there have been demonstrations in the streets about income inequality.
你说的是一个未被注意到的现象，街头出现了关于收入不平等的示威活动。
But that’s somewhat unnoticed in this country.
但这在这个国家有点被忽视。
Right.
正确的。
OK, maybe unnoticed in this country.
好吧，也许在这个国家没有被注意到。
Yeah, income inequality is a huge issue in Israel, especially because in Israel, unlike in the United States — Americans should forgive me for this — there’s a sense of national solidarity in a different way, as there is in small countries.
是的，收入不平等在以色列是一个大问题，特别是因为在以色列，与美国不同 ——“美国人应该原谅我这一点”—— 这里有一种不同方式的民族团结感，就像小国家一样。
Small countries feel like, someone in my country who’s like me shouldn’t be poor.
小国家觉得，在我的国家，像我这样的人不应该贫穷。
I don’t think Americans feel like, somebody in New York doesn’t quite feel that way about Appalachia.
我不认为美国人对阿巴拉契亚有这样的感觉，纽约的某人也没有这种感觉。
Like, “Well we’re both Americans; you shouldn’t be poor,” the same way that someone in Jerusalem might feel that about someone in Netanya.
就像，“我们都是美国人；你不应该贫穷”，就像耶路撒冷的某人对内坦亚的某人可能有这样的感觉一样。
…income inequality is a huge issue in Israel, especially because in Israel, unlike in the United States — Americans should forgive me for this — there’s a sense of national solidarity in a different way, as there is in small countries.
……收入不平等在以色列是一个大问题，特别是因为在以色列，与美国不同 ——“美国人应该原谅我这一点”—— 这里有一种不同方式的民族团结感，就像小国家一样。
Small countries feel like, someone in my country who’s like me shouldn’t be poor.
小国家觉得，在我的国家，像我这样的人不应该贫穷。
Well, let’s say you’re talking to someone who’s going to Israel.
好吧，假设您正在和一个要去以色列的人交谈。
They’ve been before.
他们以前来过。
Quite possibly, they’re Jewish and they’re familiar with the major sites.
他们很可能是犹太人，并且熟悉主要景点。
And you’re giving them advice about something else they might do or see that they haven’t thought of.
你还向他们提供了一些他们可能会做或看到的他们没有想到的其他事情的建议。
What is it that you would recommend, other than the obvious?
除了显而易见的之外，您还建议什么？
I don’t know whether this is the obvious or not, but less-visited and among my favorite sites is the graveyard in Safed, which contains the graves of most of the most famous Kabbalists of the time, including Luria, including the man who wrote Lekhah Dodi, Shlomo Alkabetz, and they’re all there, and you can stand on the hills of Safed and see the sun set and it’s a magical experience.
我不知道这是否是显而易见的，但游客较少、也是我最喜欢的地方之一是采法特的墓地，里面埋着当时大多数最著名的卡巴拉学者的坟墓，包括卢里亚，包括《Lekhah Dodi》的作者、什洛莫·阿尔卡贝茨，他们都在那里，你可以站在采法德的山上看日落，这是一种神奇的体验。
On the Zohar and the Kuzari
关于佐哈尔和库扎里
Now that you mention the Kabbalists, why is there so much sex in the Zohar and so much talk of devils?
既然你提到了卡巴拉主义者，为什么《佐哈尔》里有那么多性爱和那么多关于魔鬼的谈论呢？
And is that really part of the Jewish tradition, or is that going beyond in its nonreligious speculations, say?
这真的是犹太传统的一部分吗？或者说，这是否超出了其非宗教推测？
Well, the sex part, in all seriousness — I think, the most powerful metaphors for human intimacy are sexual metaphors.
嗯，严肃地说，性的部分——我认为，人类亲密关系最有力的隐喻是性隐喻。
And so when you’re talking about intimacy with God, it’s very hard to avoid, like, zivug, which means coupling, or .
因此，当你谈论与上帝的亲密关系时，很难避免，比如“zivug”，意思是“耦合”，或者……。
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But at least, in some other parts of Judaism, it’s quite kept at a distance —
但至少，在犹太教的其他一些部分，它是相当遥远的——
That’s true, but it goes back to the Hasidic question you asked before, which is, this sense of intimacy with God is very hard to express without recourse to some kind of sexual metaphor.
确实如此，但这又回到了你之前问过的哈西德派问题，那就是，如果不借助某种性隐喻，这种与上帝的亲密感是很难表达的。
And the role for devils in the Zohar, is that simply a mistake?
而恶魔在《佐哈尔》中的角色，难道只是一个错误吗？
I think it’s a lot the fact that it was written in medieval times, when devils were proliferated.
我认为这很大程度上是因为它是在中世纪时期写成的，当时恶魔猖獗。
Is it part of Judaism?
它是犹太教的一部分吗？
Well, it’s part of Jewish folk culture in the same way that, if you read the stories of Isaac Bashevis Singer, you’ll get a lot of angels and devils and so on.
嗯，它是犹太民间文化的一部分，就像如果你读艾萨克·巴什维斯·辛格的故事，你会得到很多天使和魔鬼等等。
But is it part of the biblical tradition?
但这是圣经传统的一部分吗？
No. It’s a little bit more part of the Talmudic tradition, but it grew and grew as people believed, in a world lit only by fire, that there were magical creatures all around them.
不。它更像是塔木德传统的一部分，但它随着人们相信，在一个只有火照亮的世界里，周围存在着神奇的生物而不断发展。
And speaking of that era, the book The Kuzari, which you’ve written about, you mentioned that the author before, ha-Levi, is from the 12th century.
谈到那个时代，您所写的《The Kuzari》一书，您提到之前的作者哈-莱维（ha-Levi）来自 12 世纪。
Why is that an important book for Judaism?
为什么这本书对犹太教来说很重要？
It’s an important book for Judaism because the way it’s structured is, all these different religions come to the king of the Khazars, who, historically, converted to Judaism.
这对犹太教来说是一本重要的书，因为它的结构是，所有这些不同的宗教都来到了可萨人的国王那里，他在历史上皈依了犹太教。
At least, that’s the best history we have.
至少，这是我们拥有的最好的历史。
And it makes a case for Judaism against other religions.
它为犹太教反对其他宗教提供了理由。
And Judaism generally did not engage in polemics against other religions, and this really was the foundation stone of it.
犹太教一般不参与与其他宗教的争论，这确实是它的基石。
And it happened because of the golden age of Spain, where there was a lot of interaction with other religions, and Jewish philosophy was born out of — unlike the Christian tradition, philosophy wasn’t native to Judaism — it was born out of an encounter with other cultures and a need to explain ourselves.
它的发生是因为西班牙的黄金时代，那里与其他宗教有很多互动，而犹太哲学的诞生是因为“与基督教传统不同，哲学不是犹太教本土的”，它诞生于与其他文化的相遇和解释自己的需要。
And it was written by one of the great poets of medieval times, who also was a distinguished philosopher.
它的作者是一位中世纪伟大的诗人，同时也是一位杰出的哲学家。
And it’s written in the form of a dialogue, as you know, a conversation, and Leo Strauss wrote on this.
它是以对话的形式写成的，如你所知，对话，列奥·施特劳斯对此进行了写作。
He was himself Jewish, though I think probably not a believer.
他本人就是犹太人，尽管我认为他可能不是信徒。
And he suggested that as with the works of Plato and Hume, the fact that it was done as a conversation and dialogue meant, not that it was deliberate untruths, but many things were deliberately unsaid, and there was a hovering ambiguity to the final content about the relative status of religion, philosophy, and whether prophecy is something truly spiritual or can be naturalized to some degree.
他认为，与柏拉图和休谟的作品一样，它是以谈话和对话的形式完成的，这并不意味着它是故意的谎言，而是很多事情是故意不说出来的，并且关于宗教、哲学的相对地位以及预言是否是真正的精神事物或可以在某种程度上自然化的最终内容存在着模糊性。
Do you agree with that reading?
你同意这个读法吗？
Yeah, well, as we know, he was very fond of things unsaid, Leo Strauss — that was his bread and butter.
是的，好吧，正如我们所知，他非常喜欢不言而喻的事情，列奥·施特劳斯——这就是他的面包和黄油。
There’s a debate in Jewish philosophy between Maimonides and Yehuda ha-Levi about whether prophecy is something that is divinely gifted or something that you can achieve.
在犹太哲学中，迈蒙尼德和耶胡达·哈-莱维之间存在一场争论，争论的焦点是预言是神赐的东西还是可以实现的东西。
And while ha-Levi is on the gifted side, ha-Levi, I want to say, represents the nonrationalist strain of Jewish philosophy, as Maimonides represents the rationalist strain.
虽然哈-莱维属于天才的一方，但我想说，哈-莱维代表了犹太哲学的非理性主义倾向，正如迈蒙尼德代表了理性主义倾向一样。
And that’s why that book nurtures the Hasidic tradition from afar, and that idea that it comes from a poet makes a lot of sense.
这就是为什么这本书从远处培育哈西德传统，而它来自诗人的想法很有意义。
My last question, before we turn over to audience questions.
在我们转向观众问题之前，我的最后一个问题。
And some people have said they’re not going to leave until you tell us the correct answer to this one.
有些人说，除非你告诉我们这个问题的正确答案，否则他们不会离开。
Uh-oh.
呃哦。
Book Two of Maimonides: Is creation eternal?
迈蒙尼德第二卷：创造是永恒的吗？
Yes or no?
是还是不是？
We’ll see.
我们会看到的。
Or not.
或不。
Right.
正确的。
Or not.
或不。
I think that Jewish faith rises or falls — Jewish faith — whether the Jewish people does is as yet an unasked question.
我认为犹太信仰的兴衰——“犹太信仰”——“犹太人民是否会兴衰，这仍然是一个悬而未决的问题。”
But Jewish faith rises or falls, not on whether creation is eternal, but whether God is.
但犹太信仰的兴衰，并不在于创造是否永恒，而在于上帝是否永恒。
And so I don’t think that that’s a question for Jewish dogma, whether creation is eternal or not.
所以我认为这不是犹太教条的问题，无论创造是否永恒。
As long as God is, we’re good.
只要神还在，我们就很好。
Rabbi David Wolpe, thank you so much.
大卫·沃尔普拉比，非常感谢你。
Q&A
问答
I actually have a question about Maimonides, and your view of the evolution of Jewish thought.
实际上我有一个关于迈蒙尼德的问题，以及你对犹太思想演变的看法。
Two things.
有两件事。
One, do you think there was something lost, something important that was lost in Maimonides’s codification of the Law, that we don’t have access to anymore today because of that development?
第一，您是否认为迈蒙尼德编纂的法律中遗失了一些重要的东西，而我们今天由于这种发展而无法再获得这些东西？
And then, how much of the work of Maimonides changed the course of Jewish thought in a way that maybe wouldn’t have happened anyway with the advent of modernity?
那么，迈蒙尼德的著作有多少改变了犹太思想的进程，而现代性的到来也许不会发生这种情况？
I would say, in answer to the first one, what did we lose with Maimonides’s aggregation of Jewish law with the Mishneh Torah?
我想说，在回答第一个问题时，迈蒙尼德将犹太法律与《密西尼托拉》结合起来，我们失去了什么？
What Maimonides wanted to do was take all of this messy giant Talmudic and other tradition and make it simple.
迈蒙尼德想做的就是把所有这些混乱的巨型塔木德和其他传统变得简单。
And one of the things that he did that he later said he regretted but didn’t have the chance to fix was, he didn’t add footnotes.
他做过的一件事他后来说他很后悔但没有机会改正，那就是他没有添加脚注。
So we don’t know.
所以我们不知道。
Scholars have spent generations trying to reconstruct the sources of Maimonides.
学者们花了几代人的时间试图重建迈蒙尼德的来源。
That’s a lot that was lost because, among other things, he might’ve been basing it on readings and manuscripts that we don’t have.
失去了很多东西，因为除其他外，他可能是基于我们没有的读物和手稿。
And also, any time you have a fixed law, you rigidify the practices of communities because then people say, “Well, it’s not in the book, so you can’t do it.” So yes, a lot was lost, but I think probably more was gained.
And also, any time you have a fixed law, you rigidify the practices of communities because then people say, “Well, it’s not in the book, so you can’t do it.”所以，是的，失去了很多，但我认为可能得到了更多。
In terms of whether he changed the course of Jewish history, I think you almost can’t say no because Maimonides is probably the single most important figure in Judaism.
In terms of whether he changed the course of Jewish history, I think you almost can’t say no because Maimonides is probably the single most important figure in Judaism.
Certainly post-Talmud, he is the single most important figure.
当然，在《塔木德》之后，他是最重要的人物。
And what he changed — which some people like and some don’t — is, he made people who are Jewish rationalists comfortable and people who are not Jewish rationalists forced to argue that it was OK not to be rationalistic.
And what he changed — which some people like and some don’t — is, he made people who are Jewish rationalists comfortable and people who are not Jewish rationalists forced to argue that it was OK not to be rationalistic.
That to think of God as omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent like you do in a philosophy class is not the only way to think about God.
像在哲学课上那样认为上帝是无所不知、无所不能、仁慈的，这并不是思考上帝的唯一方式。
And that’s why the Hasidim needed to reinvigorate the Jewish tradition in a sense.
这就是为什么哈西德派需要在某种意义上重振犹太传统。
So, on balance: glad we had him.
所以，总的来说：很高兴我们拥有他。
Next question.
下一个问题。
OK, this is a general question.
好的，这是一个一般性问题。
When I went on birthright, we talked a lot about the idea that everything happens for a reason in the Jewish religion, and so I wanted to know your beliefs and your mindset on when you experience things in life that are really bad, for instance a lot of nice people and good people passing away or just anything bad that happens in life, I guess your belief on that and if you still believe everything happens for a reason.
When I went on birthright, we talked a lot about the idea that everything happens for a reason in the Jewish religion, and so I wanted to know your beliefs and your mindset on when you experience things in life that are really bad, for instance a lot of nice people and good people passing away or just anything bad that happens in life, I guess your belief on that and if you still believe everything happens for a reason.
OK, I’m going to try to make this really as quick as possible, but give me some allowance for the fact that I’m making it very quick.
好吧，我会尽力让这件事尽可能快，但请允许我考虑一下我做得非常快的事实。
First of all, I don’t believe at all that everything happens for a reason.
首先，我根本不相信一切的发生都是有原因的。
Not at all.
一点也不。
I think there’s a lot of randomness in the world.
我认为世界上有很多随机性。
I think the attempt to say everything happens for a reason can lead you to some moral obscenities like, “Oh, this kid in the Sudan who was born with amoebic dysentery and lived for three years and suffered and died, it happened for a reason.” Yeah, the reason is because the world is unfair.
I think the attempt to say everything happens for a reason can lead you to some moral obscenities like, “Oh, this kid in the Sudan who was born with amoebic dysentery and lived for three years and suffered and died, it happened for a reason.”是的，原因就是这个世界不公平。
That’s the reason.
这就是原因。
Now, why the world is unfair, I have a theory about.
现在，为什么世界不公平，我有一个理论。
But before I get to that, let me just say, the question of life is not why did this happen to you but what will you do with it, given that it happened to you.
But before I get to that, let me just say, the question of life is not why did this happen to you but what will you do with it, given that it happened to you.
That’s the question, does God give you the power to make something out of what has happened to you even though .
这就是问题，尽管如此，上帝是否赋予你力量，让你从发生在你身上的事情中创造出一些东西。
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It’s like when I got cancer.
就像我得癌症的时候一样。
Couple times.
几次。
I’ve had two brain surgeries and I’ve had chemotherapy, and every time someone would say to me, “Why do you think God did this?” And they were well meant.
我做过两次脑部手术，也接受过化疗，每次有人对我说：“你认为上帝为什么这么做？”他们是善意的。
And my answer was, “I don’t think that God said Wolpe could use some chemo.”
我的回答是：“我不认为上帝说沃尔普可以使用化疗。”
I think, rather, that the question of my life would be, given that this happened, what do you do with it?
相反，我认为我人生的问题是，既然发生了这种事，你会怎么处理它？
How do you react to it?
你对此有何反应？
How do you feel about it?
你对此有何感想？
And I would just say very quickly that my working theory is — and it’s not original with me — is that when people say, “Why do bad things happen to good people?” Imagine for a minute that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people.
And I would just say very quickly that my working theory is — and it’s not original with me — is that when people say, “Why do bad things happen to good people?”想象一下，好事发生在好人身上，坏事发生在坏人身上。
Everybody would be good all the time.
每个人都会一直很好。
Because who would be bad if you know every time you steal, you’re going to get a disease.
因为如果你知道每次偷窃都会生病，那谁会是坏人呢？
Everyone would be good all the time.
每个人都会一直很好。
The only way it is possible to be good in this world is if you can be good without knowing the consequences.
在这个世界上，要想做好事，唯一的办法就是在不知道后果的情况下做好事。
It has to be random or there’s no goodness.
它必须是随机的，否则就没有好处。
So you know you can be the best person in the world, and you can still die young.
所以你知道你可以成为世界上最好的人，而且你仍然可以英年早逝。
But at least, if you know that, then your goodness was real goodness.
但至少，如果你知道这一点，那么你的善良才是真正的善良。
You were doing it because you believe good is important, or you love other people, or being good makes you feel good — something intrinsic and not because you’re being good because you know God’s going to reward you.
You were doing it because you believe good is important, or you love other people, or being good makes you feel good — something intrinsic and not because you’re being good because you know God’s going to reward you.
So that’s what I would say in a nutshell.
简而言之，这就是我要说的。
The only way it is possible to be good in this world is if you can be good without knowing the consequences.
在这个世界上，要想做好事，唯一的办法就是在不知道后果的情况下做好事。
It has to be random or there’s no goodness.
它必须是随机的，否则就没有好处。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Wow.
哇。
What an answer.
多么好的答案啊。
Different subject: your thoughts on the rise of anti-Semitism in large parts of Western Europe and college campuses and the intense feelings so many people in the world have about Israel.
Different subject: your thoughts on the rise of anti-Semitism in large parts of Western Europe and college campuses and the intense feelings so many people in the world have about Israel.
Many observers think that the anti-Israel expression is just a cloak for anti-Semitism.
Many observers think that the anti-Israel expression is just a cloak for anti-Semitism.
So what I would say, the quick answer to the very end of it is, not all anti-Israel sentiment is anti-Semitism, but anti-Israel sentiment is now the respectable guise for anti-Semitism.
So what I would say, the quick answer to the very end of it is, not all anti-Israel sentiment is anti-Semitism, but anti-Israel sentiment is now the respectable guise for anti-Semitism.
Very few people, only the most fringy fringers, will stand up and say “I’m an anti-Semite.” But you can say “I’m anti-Israel” and be an anti-Semite and that’s respectable.
很少有人，只有最边缘的边缘人，会站起来说“我是反犹太主义者”。 But you can say “I’m anti-Israel” and be an anti-Semite and that’s respectable.
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And I think there are lots of tests that you can apply to the way people criticize Israel and the way they criticize other places that will let you know what’s behind it.
And I think there are lots of tests that you can apply to the way people criticize Israel and the way they criticize other places that will let you know what’s behind it.
I have a lot of thoughts about why anti-Semitism .
I have a lot of thoughts about why anti-Semitism .
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My father, who was a wonderful rabbi, he talked about anti-Semitism often, and I remember thinking when I became a rabbi, “I’m so glad that’s done.” So glad my rabbinate won’t have to be about that, and boy was I wrong.
My father, who was a wonderful rabbi, he talked about anti-Semitism often, and I remember thinking when I became a rabbi, “I’m so glad that’s done.” So glad my rabbinate won’t have to be about that, and boy was I wrong.
It’s like the return of the repressed.
这就像被压抑的人的回归。
I think post-Holocaust, it had to go underground in a deep way for a while.
I think post-Holocaust, it had to go underground in a deep way for a while.
But now it has erupted again, and there is some viral strain in, well, first it was in European DNA and now I’m afraid it’s very much in world — not in world DNA.
But now it has erupted again, and there is some viral strain in, well, first it was in European DNA and now I’m afraid it’s very much in world — not in world DNA.
There was already in Islam, again there were seeds of it, but it wasn’t the kind of paternal fight that there was in Christianity and Judaism.
There was already in Islam, again there were seeds of it, but it wasn’t the kind of paternal fight that there was in Christianity and Judaism.
But now it’s taken over, lock, stock, and barrel.
But now it’s taken over, lock, stock, and barrel.
And the virulence on both sides, in Islam and in Europe, is truly frightening.
And the virulence on both sides, in Islam and in Europe, is truly frightening.
It is truly frightening.
这确实很可怕。
So I say the Buddhists and Hindus, that’s where we .
So I say the Buddhists and Hindus, that’s where we .
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that’s these days.
就是这些天。
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Look, the one thing that I would say that is important to keep in mind is, it’s not 1942.
Look, the one thing that I would say that is important to keep in mind is, it’s not 1942.
Throughout Christian Europe, there are many, many, many millions, the overwhelming number of people are of good will.
Throughout Christian Europe, there are many, many, many millions, the overwhelming number of people are of good will.
The leaders of Europe are overtly — and for the most part, covertly also — opponents of anti-Semitism in some very significant ways.
The leaders of Europe are overtly — and for the most part, covertly also — opponents of anti-Semitism in some very significant ways.
But it’s scary, it is scary.
但这很可怕，很可怕。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I was going to ask whether it’s natural for Jews, especially American Jews, to be conservatives or liberals, but let’s get more up to date and pointed.
I was going to ask whether it’s natural for Jews, especially American Jews, to be conservatives or liberals, but let’s get more up to date and pointed.
Is there something Jewish about being alarmed or not about what’s perceived to be the Trump agenda?
对于特朗普的议程是否感到震惊，这是否有犹太人的特点？
So here’s what I would say about that, and I think actually my answer to both would be the same, which is, it is impossible to say .
所以这就是我对此要说的，我认为实际上我对两者的答案是相同的，也就是说，这是不可能说的。
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I know a lot of liberal Jews who will say that Judaism and Democratic politics are virtually identical, and if they don’t say it, they feel it.
I know a lot of liberal Jews who will say that Judaism and Democratic politics are virtually identical, and if they don’t say it, they feel it.
To which I always say, look, if the most learned and most observant Jews, that is the Orthodox community, tends to be Republican, then it’s a little shortsighted to say, obviously Jewish values and Democratic values are identical.
To which I always say, look, if the most learned and most observant Jews, that is the Orthodox community, tends to be Republican, then it’s a little shortsighted to say, obviously Jewish values and Democratic values are identical.
You can’t say that.
你不能这么说。
On the other hand, you also can’t say that the values of the prophets, of Amos and Jeremiah, for the poor and the widowed and .
另一方面，你也不能说先知、阿摩司和耶利米的价值观是针对穷人、寡妇和……的。
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Hermann Cohen said very beautifully, “In the idea of the stranger, Judaism was born.” Think about that today, right?
赫尔曼·科恩说得很漂亮：“在陌生人的想法中，犹太教诞生了。”今天想想，对吗？
That’s what Hermann Cohen said.
赫尔曼·科恩就是这么说的。
So I think you can make a very powerful Jewish case on both sides.
所以我认为你可以为双方提出一个非常有力的犹太论点。
I don’t want to address individuals at the moment.
我现在不想对个人讲话。
I think that that’s not the purpose of the forum, although if Tyler asks me, I will.
我认为这不是论坛的目的，尽管如果泰勒问我，我会的。
But I think that you can, in good conscience, be a Jew on the Right or on the Left.
但我认为，凭良心来说，你可以成为右派或左派的犹太人。
And the only thing that I would say you ought to be uneasy in your conscience about, is if you believe that the other side has no good Jewish values on its side, because you’re wrong.
我想说的唯一一件事是，如果你认为对方没有良好的犹太价值观，你应该感到良心不安，因为你错了。
But I think that you can, in good conscience, be a Jew on the Right or on the Left.
但我认为，凭良心来说，你可以成为右派或左派的犹太人。
And the only thing that I would say you ought to be uneasy in your conscience about, is if you believe that the other side has no good Jewish values on its side, because you’re wrong.
我想说的唯一一件事是，如果你认为对方没有良好的犹太价值观，你应该感到良心不安，因为你错了。
If I could just try a follow-up question.
如果我能尝试一个后续问题就好了。
Given how many literally billions of people have been elevated from poverty by, what is mostly in my account, capitalism, not only capitalism, Milton Friedman saw this, but still the weight of Jewish intellectual opinion in the United States has mostly been on the Left.
米尔顿·弗里德曼（Milton Friedman）看到了这一点，考虑到有多少亿人已经摆脱了贫困，在我看来，资本主义，不仅仅是资本主义，但美国犹太知识分子的观点仍然主要集中在左派。
I think that’s a well-established regularity.
我认为这是一个既定的规律。
What’s the intellectual or sociological reason for that underlying .
其背后的知识或社会学原因是什么？
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Well, I’ll say why that is and then one thing about capitalism that I think is profoundly Jewish that most people don’t realize, seriously.
好吧，我会说为什么会这样，然后我认为关于资本主义的一件事是深刻的犹太文化，但大多数人都没有意识到，说真的。
I think the reason is because they came from Eastern Europe, and that tradition, like the FDR tradition in America, is very .
我认为原因是因为他们来自东欧，而这种传统，就像美国的罗斯福传统一样，非常……。
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the only way that you could see out of the morass of the civilizations they were in, the only thing that gave them hope other than Zionism, was a kind of Bundist, Marxist, socialist .
你能从他们所处的文明泥沼中看到的唯一出路，除了犹太复国主义之外唯一给他们带来希望的东西，就是某种崩得主义、马克思主义、社会主义……。
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there wasn’t really a living capitalist alternative.
并没有真正可行的资本主义替代方案。
To the very first glance, it looked like the humanistic face of economics as opposed to .
乍一看，它看起来像是经济学的人文面貌，而不是……。
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what is capitalism — competition.
什么是资本主义 —— 竞争。
Well, that doesn’t look like a humanistic face.
嗯，这看起来不像一张人文主义的面孔。
But the one thing that I will tell you, and I think I first heard this many years ago mentioned by George Gilder — I want to give him credit for this insight.
但我要告诉你的一件事是，我想我第一次听到乔治·吉尔德在很多年前提到过这一点——我想赞扬他的这种洞察力。
He said, “A real capitalist has to have empathy.” Because if you’re building a business or a product and you don’t know what other people want, you’ll fail.
他说：“真正的资本家必须有同理心。”因为如果你正在打造一家企业或一款产品，而你不知道其他人想要什么，那么你就会失败。
The only way you can succeed is if you actually understand what it is that other people want and/or need.
您成功的唯一方法是您真正了解其他人想要和/或需要什么。
And both that combined with what you said, which is that it is the great engine of wealth that lifts people out of poverty, I think that a Jewish thinker today, and certainly many in Israel would argue this too, that you would have to be a capitalist of some stripe.
结合你所说的，即它是使人们摆脱贫困的财富的伟大引擎，我认为今天的犹太思想家，当然还有以色列的许多人也会争论这一点，你必须是某种类型的资本家。
I think it’s very hard to make the case that certainly communism or even socialism is the Jewish .
我认为很难证明共产主义甚至社会主义肯定是犹太人的。
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although I could find you a few Jewish socialists who would argue with me.
尽管我可以找到一些会与我争论的犹太社会主义者。
We’ll take the three last questions.
我们将回答最后三个问题。
Yes, please.
是的，请。
Rabbi, thank you so much for sharing your evening with us.
拉比，非常感谢您与我们分享您的夜晚。
When this synagogue here was also the second home for Adas Israel.
当时这里的这座犹太教堂也是阿达斯以色列人的第二个家。
When Adas Israel left here, in 1959 I believe , Conservative Judaism was the top stream of Judaism in the United States.
当阿达斯·伊斯雷尔（Adas Israel）1959年离开这里时，我相信保守犹太教是美国犹太教的顶流。
In the decade or 15 years later, Conservative Judaism lost over 600,000 members.
在十年或十五年后，保守派犹太教失去了超过 60 万成员。
Could you tell us a little bit, in your own words so to speak, why you think that happened and what steps are being taken to recover that attraction that Conservative Judaism once had for American Jewry?
您能否用您自己的话说，您认为为什么会发生这种情况，以及正在采取哪些措施来恢复保守犹太教曾经对美国犹太人的吸引力？
Sure, but let me also add one more thing that I was thinking about the capitalism thing, which is that capitalism also has the almost inevitable byproduct of creating tremendous inequalities, and a Jewish ethic has to address that as well.
当然，但让我再补充一件事，就是我在思考资本主义问题时，资本主义也有几乎不可避免的副产品，即造成巨大的不平等，犹太伦理也必须解决这个问题。
It can’t be capitalism that ignores the fact that it creates an underclass that suffers.
资本主义不可能忽视这样一个事实：它创造了一个受苦受难的下层阶级。
So it has to be a capitalist socialism.
所以它一定是资本主义社会主义。
Not that I split differences as a pope and rabbi, but you’re right too.
并不是说我作为教皇和拉比区分分歧，但你也是对的。
I don’t know if you know that: that’s an old joke about the rabbi who has two people in front of him, and they each make their case.
我不知道你是否知道：这是一个关于拉比的老笑话，他面前有两个人，他们各自陈述自己的观点。
He goes, “You’re right,” and the second one makes a case; “You’re right.” And then his wife says, “Dear, they can’t both be right.” He goes, “You’re right too.”
他说，“你是对的”，第二个提出了一个理由； “你说得对。”然后他的妻子说：“亲爱的，他们不可能都是对的。”他说：“你也说得对。”
So Conservative Judaism, the dilemma that Conservative Judaism had was that it tried to hold on to a serious Jewish observance with modern scholarship that didn’t consistently say, “God told you, you have to do this.” And modern Jewish observance is a very hard thing to hold on to.
因此，保守犹太教面临的困境是，它试图用现代学术来坚持严肃的犹太教仪式，而现代学术却没有始终如一地说：“上帝告诉你，你必须这样做。”现代犹太人的遵守是一件很难坚持的事情。
And so people who had grown up with the traditional observance lived that out, but as the motivational piece of it weakened, so did that lifestyle that would maintain them as Conservative Jews.
因此，那些在传统仪式中长大的人们也过着这种生活，但随着其中的激励因素减弱，维持他们作为保守派犹太人的生活方式也随之减弱。
Unless and until — not only Conservative Judaism by the way, but liberal religion in general — unless and until .
除非和直到——顺便说一下，不仅是保守派犹太教，而且是一般的自由派宗教——除非和直到……。
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But the problem is worse in Judaism because it makes greater demands than other religions.
但犹太教的问题更为严重，因为它比其他宗教提出了更高的要求。
Christianity doesn’t make such lifestyle demands on Christians as Judaism does on Jews.
基督教对基督徒的生活方式要求不像犹太教对犹太人的要求。
Unless and until there is a compelling nonfundamentalist rationale for why I should eat a certain way and why I shouldn’t go out on Saturday, in other words, the ritual behaviors that maintain the cohesion of the tradition.
除非并且直到有一个令人信服的非原教旨主义理由来解释为什么我应该以某种方式吃东西以及为什么我不应该在周六出去，换句话说，就是维持传统凝聚力的仪式行为。
Until that is created — and many philosophers have tried to and many rabbis have tried — till that’s created, Conservative Judaism is going to face a huge uphill battle.
直到它被创造出来——“许多哲学家已经尝试过，许多拉比也已经尝试过”——“直到它被创造出来，保守派犹太教将面临一场巨大的艰苦战斗。
That’s the short answer.
这是简短的答案。
Even if creation is eternal, this session is not.
即使创造是永恒的，这次会议也不是。
The two last questions and answers will sum to seven minutes.
最后两个问题和答案总计七分钟。
Yes, please.
是的，请。
The United States Supreme Court is currently comprised only of Catholics and Jews.
美国最高法院目前仅由天主教徒和犹太人组成。
Do you think that these groups naturally produce better jurists?
您认为这些群体自然会培养出更好的法学家吗？
If so why, and if not, why is that the composition of the court?
如果是这样，为什么，如果不是，为什么法院是这样组成的？
I defer here to an answer that I heard given by my sociologist brother at a session we did together in South Africa last summer.
我在这里引用去年夏天我们在南非一起举办的一次会议上我的社会学家兄弟给出的答案。
Which is probably a sentence you’ve never heard uttered before, right?
这可能是你以前从未听过的一句话，对吧？
I defer to my sociologist brother in a session we did together in South Africa.
在我们在南非一起进行的一次会议上，我听取了我的社会学家兄弟的意见。
Because Catholicism has a natural law tradition, Judaism has a strong legal tradition, and Protestantism is antinomian: it’s anti-law.
因为天主教有自然法传统，犹太教有很强的法律传统，而新教是反律法主义的：它是反法律的。
That’s the essence of Protestantism, right?
这就是新教的本质，对吗？
So who around here is trained in law?
那么这里有谁接受过法律培训？
Oh, the Catholics and the Jews.
哦，天主教徒和犹太人。
Now, that doesn’t mean that there won’t be individual Protestants, but if you’re looking for a deep tradition, well, we got one.
现在，这并不意味着不会有个别的新教徒，但如果你正在寻找一种深厚的传统，那么，我们有一个。
Do you think it’s realistic to talk about the American Jewish community having become too fractioned to be considered a single community?
您认为谈论美国犹太社区已经变得过于分裂而不能被视为一个单一社区是现实的吗？
And if it is realistic or possible, then what is the biggest challenge facing the community?
如果这是现实的或可能的，那么社区面临的最大挑战是什么？
OK, are we a community?
好吧，我们是一个社区吗？
I have good news and bad news.
我有好消息和坏消息。
The good news is, Jews have never been united.
好消息是，犹太人从未团结过。
Never.
绝不。
Never.
绝不。
Only people who think “Oh my God, why don’t we have the cohesion we used to?” are people who don’t know Jewish history.
只有那些会想“天啊，为什么我们没有以前那样的凝聚力？”的人。是不了解犹太历史的人。
We used to be excommunicating each other all the time, the Hasidim, the Mitnagdim, there was always, always, always fights among Jews.
我们过去总是互相逐出教会，哈西德派、米特纳格德派，犹太人之间总是、总是、总是打架。
And there are all sorts of jokes and things, but it’s true, it’s true.
虽然有各种各样的笑话和事情，但这是真的，这是真的。
And by the way, I don’t think this is unique to Jews, but it certainly is true among Jews.
顺便说一句，我不认为这是犹太人所独有的，但在犹太人中确实如此。
You can speak about an American Jewish community that will mobilize around certain moments of crisis.
你可以谈论一个美国犹太社区，它将在某些危机时刻动员起来。
And if, God forbid, there were a terrible moment of crisis, I think most of the American Jewish community would mobilize around it.
如果上帝保佑，如果出现可怕的危机时刻，我认为大多数美国犹太社区都会动员起来。
If there was a huge wave of anti-Semitism in America, for example.
例如，如果美国出现了巨大的反犹太主义浪潮。
But having said that, in some ways .
但话虽如此，从某些方面来说。
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in Jewish theology, there are two ways of serving God.
在犹太神学中，侍奉上帝有两种方式。
There’s yirah and ahavah.
有 yirah 和 ahavah。
There’s fear and love, and fear in many ways is more immediately effective.
有恐惧和爱，恐惧在很多方面更能立即产生效果。
When you’re driving over the speed limit, is it love for your fellow drivers or the presence of a police car that will get you to slow down faster?
当你超速行驶时，是对其他司机的爱还是警车的存在会让你放慢速度？
Fear is in some ways more immediate and effective than love, but love is more enduring.
在某些方面，恐惧比爱更直接、更有效，但爱更持久。
Because fear passes, but love, real love, even if creation’s not infinite, real love endures.
因为恐惧会过去，但爱，真正的爱，即使创造不是无限的，真正的爱会持久。
Love in the words of Shir Hashirim, the Song of Songs, is strong as death.
《雅歌》中希尔·哈希里姆 (Shir Hashirim) 形容，爱如死亡般强烈。
So if the American Jewish community, even if not wholly — because I’m not a believer in universal love, because then love is diluted; it has no meaning.
因此，如果美国犹太社区，即使不完全——因为我不相信普遍的爱，因为那样爱就被稀释了；它没有任何意义。
Because people that you love, you’ll sacrifice for, and you can’t sacrifice for everyone.
因为你爱的人，你会为之牺牲，但你不能为所有人牺牲。
If the American Jewish community feels this familial sense and this sense of love and this sense of closeness, then we won’t disappear.
如果美国犹太社区感受到这种家庭感、这种爱感和这种亲密感，那么我们就不会消失。
I’ll close with a Hasidic story.
我将以哈西德派的故事作为结束。
To some extent, I feel like our story, not entirely, but a little bit, is like the story that Rebbe Chaim Halberstam used to tell of the man who was lost in the forest.
在某种程度上，我觉得我们的故事不完全是，但有一点像雷贝·哈伊姆·哈尔伯斯坦曾经讲述的那个在森林里迷路的人的故事。
And he wandered and wandered and wandered, and he was completely lost.
他徘徊、徘徊、徘徊，最后完全迷失了方向。
He had no idea where to go, and he sat down in despair.
他不知道该去哪里，绝望地坐下来。
And as he sat down, another man comes along, and he says, “Oh, I’m so glad to see you because I’m completely lost.” And the second man says, “I have bad news for you.
当他坐下时，另一个男人走了过来，他说：“哦，我很高兴见到你，因为我完全迷路了。”第二个人说：“我有坏消息要告诉你。
I’m lost too.” He says, “But one thing I do know, is the way we have gone is not the way.
我也迷路了。”他说：“但我确实知道一件事，我们走的路并不是正路。
Now, let’s hold hands and find the way together.”
现在，让我们手牵着手，一起寻找出路。”
Thank you.
谢谢。