Paula Byrne on Thomas Hardy’s Women, Jane Austen’s Humor, and Evelyn Waugh’s Warmth (Ep. 229)
Thank you to listener David Johansson for sponsoring this transcript.
感谢听众大卫·约翰逊赞助这份文字记录。
Help us keep the conversations going in 2025.
帮助我们在 2025 年继续进行对话。
Donate to Conversations with Tyler today.
今天就向与泰勒对话捐款。
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m talking with Paula Byrne.
今天我正在与保拉·伯恩交谈。
She has a new book out here, which I found in Daunt bookstore in London.
她出了一本新书，我在伦敦 Daunt 书店找到的。
It is called Hardy Women: Mother, Sisters, Wives, Muses.
它被称为“哈代女性：母亲、姐妹、妻子、缪斯”。
It’s about the women in the life of Thomas Hardy and in the novels of Thomas Hardy.
这是关于托马斯·哈代生活中和托马斯·哈代小说中的女性的故事。
Paula is a very well-known and best-selling biographer.
保拉是一位非常知名且畅销的传记作家。
She has, among other things, books on Jane Austen, which are wonderful; Evelyn Waugh; a best-selling book about JFK’s sister, based on new archival research; a bestselling biography of Barbara Pym.
她有很多关于简·奥斯汀的书，都很精彩。伊芙琳·沃；一本基于新档案研究的关于肯尼迪妹妹的畅销书；芭芭拉·皮姆的畅销传记。
She has done work on 18th-century slavery, images of Jane Austen.
她的作品涉及 18 世纪的奴隶制、简·奥斯汀的形象。
She has written two novels.
她写了两本小说。
And she leads a group called ReLit, devoted to the notion of bibliotherapy.
她领导着一个名为 ReLit 的小组，致力于阅读疗法的概念。
Paula, welcome.
宝拉，欢迎。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Simple opening question: What did Virginia Woolf think when she went to visit Thomas Hardy?
简单的开场问题：弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫去拜访托马斯·哈代时怎么想？
I loved what she said when she says his face looked like a round apple, because I always think of him with apples, partly because they made cider at home when he was a young boy.
当她说他的脸看起来像一个圆苹果时，我喜欢她所说的，因为我总是想到他和苹果，部分原因是当他还是个小男孩时，他们在家里酿造苹果酒。
I think it’s just such a brilliant description of that little apple, slightly like an old withered apple, but still retaining some juicy flesh.
我认为这对那个小苹果的描述真是太精彩了，有点像一个枯萎的老苹果，但仍然保留了一些多汁的果肉。
I think she did really like him.
我想她确实很喜欢他。
I think she liked him more than she expected to like him, which I think often happened with Hardy.
我认为她对他的喜欢超过了她预期的喜欢他，我认为这种情况经常发生在哈迪身上。
People expected him to be really dour and pessimistic because, obviously, of the books.
人们期望他会非常阴郁和悲观，显然是因为书中的原因。
Then, when they met him, they were quite charmed.
然后，当他们见到他时，他们都被迷住了。
He had a very soft and gentle voice, and it was quite bewitching.
他的声音非常的温柔，非常的温柔，让人着迷。
It was quite mesmerizing.
真是令人着迷。
I think she was very moved, obviously, because of her father, Leslie Stephen’s, relationship with Hardy.
我想她显然非常感动，因为她的父亲莱斯利·斯蒂芬与哈迪的关系。
She wasn’t as acerbic as she was with quite a few people.
她不像对很多人那样尖酸刻薄。
I think she gave him quite an easy time on the whole.
我认为总的来说，她给了他一段很轻松的时光。
This would’ve been in the teens, right, of the 20th century that she saw him?
她见到他的时候应该是二十世纪十几岁吧？
It’s just so —
就是这样 ——
Sorry.
抱歉。
I was just saying he was quite caustic about the sorts of novels that she wrote that don’t have a beginning, middle, and an end.
我只是说他对她写的那种没有开头、中间和结尾的小说很尖刻。
She took it in good humor, but he was definitely feeling that the world of the novel had changed beyond recognition, which it had, and that she was a pioneer of some of that.
她很幽默地接受了这一切，但他确实感觉到小说的世界已经变得面目全非，事实确实如此，而她是其中某些方面的先驱。
He was still very old-fashioned about a story must have that trajectory: beginning, middle, end.
他仍然很守旧，认为故事必须有这样的轨迹：开始、中间、结束。
But I think they got on very well.
但我认为他们相处得很好。
If one visits Wessex today, are there still traces of Hardy’s world, or is it just simply homogenized and that’s quite gone?
如果你今天访问威塞克斯，是否仍然存在哈代世界的痕迹，或者它只是简单地同质化而已经消失了？
I think it is quite homogenized.
我认为这是相当同质化的。
The house, Max Gate, which is where I got the idea for writing the book, obviously retains that original charm.
Max Gate 这座房子就是我写这本书的想法的所在地，它显然保留了原有的魅力。
It’s very dark.
天很黑。
It’s an ugly house, but I think the spirit is there.
这是一座丑陋的房子，但我认为精神在那里。
I vividly remember two things.
我清楚地记得两件事。
One was his study at the top of the house where he wrote Tess, and just feeling the power of that room.
其中之一是他在房子顶上的书房，他在那里写了《苔丝》，并感受到了那个房间的力量。
Then the other room that really inspired the book was Emma’s attic room where she disappeared for 15 years.
另一个真正给这本书带来灵感的房间是艾玛的阁楼房间，她在那里失踪了 15 年。
I think you get a little feel of that in the house, in Max Gate, and certainly in the cottage because that is so beautiful.
我想你在房子里、在麦克斯门里、当然在小屋里都能感受到这一点，因为那太漂亮了。
I’ve made many pilgrimages to Hardy’s birthplace over the years, and that feels so unspoiled.
多年来，我多次前往哈代的出生地朝圣，感觉那儿未受破坏。
Dorchester, for example, is grim.
例如，多切斯特的情况很严峻。
It’s shut down.
它已关闭。
It’s just a horrible place.
这只是一个可怕的地方。
You don’t really get much of the sense of the real rustic flavor, but the cottage is charming still.
你并没有真正体会到真正的乡村气息，但小屋仍然很迷人。
Let’s say if one goes to Cornwall or Northumbria, you do feel traces of the past.
假设如果一个人去康沃尔郡或诺森布里亚郡，你确实会感受到过去的痕迹。
Liverpool, for that matter.
就此而言，利物浦。
Why not Wessex?
为什么不是威塞克斯？
What went wrong there?
那里出了什么问题？
It’s a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Maybe Liverpool, it’s a port, and I think that’s really important that the thing about a port — I’m in Manhattan now, and I’m by the river, and it really feels like Liverpool.
也许利物浦，它是一个港口，我认为关于港口的事情非常重要 —— 我现在在曼哈顿，在河边，感觉真的很像利物浦。
I feel like I’m back in Liverpool.
我感觉自己回到了利物浦。
I think there’s something about a port because it’s always changing, people are coming and going, there’s musical influences.
我认为港口有其特殊之处，因为它总是在变化，人们来来往往，还有音乐的影响。
You’d almost think that somewhere like Wessex, it would be easier to retain some of that, and yet I felt it looks very run-down.
你几乎会认为像威塞克斯这样的地方，保留其中的一些会更容易，但我觉得它看起来非常破旧。
I’m thinking really here with Dorchester, but obviously, places like the seaside, Lulworth Cove, and all these beautiful places are still incredibly gorgeous.
我真正想到的是多切斯特，但显然，像海边、拉尔沃斯湾这样的地方，以及所有这些美丽的地方仍然令人难以置信的美丽。
I think that’s where you do really get a feel.
我想这就是你真正感受到的地方。
To some extent, Dorchester, where the prison was, and you look in Winchester where Tess was hanged — there are places in England where I think you can get a feel for that.
在某种程度上，监狱所在的多切斯特，你看看苔丝被绞死的温彻斯特——我认为在英格兰的一些地方你可以感受到这一点。
If you live in the life of the imagination, like I do, I can really see it.
如果你像我一样生活在想象的生活中，我就能真正看到它。
I took my son with me, and he was like, “This is a dump.
我带着我的儿子，他说：“这是一个垃圾场。
This is horrible.
这太可怕了。
There’s no Hardy here.” I think from the young guys, he was just like, “This world has gone.
这里没有哈代。”我认为对于年轻人来说，他就像是，“这个世界已经消失了。
This world has evaporated.
这个世界已经蒸发了。
It can never come back.”
它永远不可能回来了。”
On Hardy’s views on marriage
论哈代的婚姻观
If we ponder, say, Jude the Obscure, what’s your implicit model of why it is, for Hardy, first marriages are so hard to break from?
如果我们思考一下，比如说，《无名的裘德》，对于哈代来说，为什么第一次婚姻如此难以摆脱，你的隐含模型是什么？
That is a massive question.
这是一个很大的问题。
I think so much of Hardy’s life is poured into Jude.
我认为哈代一生的大部分时间都倾注在裘德身上。
It was such a personal book for him.
这对他来说是一本非常私人的书。
It would take a very, very long time to answer that question.
回答这个问题需要非常非常长的时间。
It was also around the time, when he was writing Jude, that his marriage had by then completely ended and there was no going back.
也正是在他写《裘德》的时候，他的婚姻已经彻底结束，再也没有回头路了。
Really interesting, it was the first book that Emma did not like, didn’t want anything to do with because there is this idea running through it is, “Why can’t you end an unsatisfactory marriage?
真的很有趣，这是艾玛不喜欢的第一本书，不想与之有任何关系，因为贯穿其中的想法是，“为什么你不能结束一段不满意的婚姻？
Why can’t you just live with somebody?
为什么你不能和某人一起生活？
Why can’t you just divorce somebody?” This is a refrain.
为什么你就不能跟别人离婚呢？”这是一个避免。
What do you do if you can’t afford divorce or it’s still frowned upon?
如果你无力离婚或者离婚仍然不受欢迎，你会怎么做？
You could sell your wife like in the The Mayor of Casterbridge, or you can do what Jude does, which is you live with the object of your desire for the second time around.
你可以像《卡斯特桥市长》中那样卖掉你的妻子，或者你也可以像裘德那样，第二次与你渴望的对象生活在一起。
The second-marriage question was so huge for Hardy because he was so miserable.
第二次婚姻问题对哈代来说是如此巨大，因为他太痛苦了。
He was so miserable in his first marriage, and he just couldn’t see a way out.
他的第一次婚姻非常痛苦，他找不到出路。
But he did also come from that working-class background where it’s still really frowned upon to divorce or to leave your marriage.
但他也确实来自工人阶级背景，在这种背景下，离婚或离开婚姻仍然是令人不悦的。
It was so complicated with him because when she does die, he fell back in love with her, which is so typical of Hardy.
他的情况非常复杂，因为当她死后，他又重新爱上了她，这是哈代的典型特征。
Why write the 1913, 1914 poems to her?
为什么要写1913年、1914年的诗给她？
He’s in, what, the first year of his marriage to Florence?
他现在是，什么，他和弗洛伦斯结婚的第一年？
She can’t be crazy about that.
她不能为此疯狂。
Why is he self-destructive?
他为什么要自我毁灭？
Is it what he needs to do to make a second marriage work?
这是他需要做的事情才能让第二次婚姻成功吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
There was a cruel streak in him, I think.
我认为他身上有一种残忍的倾向。
You have to be quite cold-hearted to do what he did to Florence.
你必须非常冷酷无情才能做他对佛罗伦萨所做的事情。
Because having moaned and complained about Emma and pretty much moved Florence in, then to fall back in love with his wife is a little perverse.
因为对艾玛的抱怨和抱怨几乎让弗洛伦斯感动了，然后重新爱上他的妻子有点反常。
Of course, it made Florence feel completely awful, and then she couldn’t live with — it was like Thérèse Raquin.
当然，这让弗洛伦斯感觉非常糟糕，然后她无法忍受——就像泰蕾兹·拉奎因一样。
She couldn’t live with a dead ghost.
她无法和死去的鬼魂一起生活。
I do also think — this is where my sympathy swings to Hardy — that when somebody does die, you tend not to think of the bad things they’ve done.
我也确实认为————这就是我对哈代产生同情的地方————当有人去世时，你往往不会想到他们做过的坏事。
You tend just to remember the good things they’ve done.
你往往只记得他们做过的好事。
I’ve noticed this over and over again; people tend to just really linger on the positives.
我一遍又一遍地注意到这一点；人们往往只停留在积极的一面。
There was so much remorse, and he just did remember that beautiful young Emma.
有太多的悔恨，他确实记得那个美丽的年轻艾玛。
He did want to pay tribute to that.
他确实想对此表示敬意。
You’ve just got to remember, Tyler, as well, he’s a writer.
你也必须记住，泰勒，他是一名作家。
He’s going to use that for copy.
他将用它来复印。
He knew those poems were good.
他知道那些诗很好。
It did unleash something so emotional in him.
这确实释放了他内心的某种情感。
He wanted to be a poet.
他想成为一名诗人。
He didn’t want to be a novelist.
他不想成为一名小说家。
I think that’s really important to remember.
我认为记住这一点非常重要。
He did not want to be a novelist.
他不想成为一名小说家。
He felt almost pushed into it.
他感觉自己几乎被推入其中。
He wanted to be a poet.
他想成为一名诗人。
Then when he starts writing this amazing poetry, he knows this is good.
然后，当他开始写这首令人惊叹的诗时，他知道这很好。
That’s how he wanted to be remembered.
这就是他希望被铭记的方式。
I think, in that sense, he didn’t really care that it hurt Florence.
我认为，从这个意义上说，他并不真正关心这会伤害弗洛伦斯。
You’re also a couples counselor.
您也是一名夫妻顾问。
Do you still see this in couples today with first and second marriages?
如今，您在第一次和第二次婚姻的夫妇中仍然看到这种情况吗？
Yes.
是的。
It’s a short answer.
这是一个简短的答案。
Good answer.
很好的答案。
Why do so many Hardy tragedies come in doubles?
为什么这么多哈代悲剧都是双打的？
Can you say more about that?
你能多说一点吗？
The story in, say, Jude the Obscure: there’s two women, there’s two men, there’s multiple marriages.
比如说，《无名的裘德》中的故事：有两个女人，有两个男人，有多次婚姻。
The Mayor of Casterbridge, doubling is a theme.
卡斯特布里奇市长，加倍是一个主题。
It seems very Shakespearean that there’s an ensemble of tragedy, and different stories mirror each other or they show different facets of each other.
悲剧的整体，不同的故事相互映照，或者展现出彼此不同的一面，这似乎非常莎士比亚式的。
I’ve never thought about it, but I think it’s a really lovely point.
我从来没有想过这一点，但我认为这是一个非常可爱的观点。
I think that it’s a great plot technique as well, that shadowing and that mirroring.
我认为阴影和镜像也是一种很棒的情节技巧。
I love his plots.
我喜欢他的情节。
It’s just so hard to get a plot right, and he does that really, really well.
要把情节搞好真是太难了，但他做得非常非常好。
Again, for me writing the book, I was always conscious of, this is a man that — those later novels — wants to get out of his marriage.
再说一遍，对于我写这本书来说，我一直意识到，这是一个“——那些后来的小说”——想要摆脱婚姻的男人。
He’s always looking at the alternative relationship.
他总是在寻找另一种关系。
Like what would happen if this happens, or what happens if that wife dies?
比如如果发生这种情况会发生什么，或者如果妻子去世会发生什么？
He’s always got that refrain going through in those later novels, but not in the first ones when he’s still so madly in love.
在后来的小说中，他总是会出现这种克制，但在第一部小说中，当他仍然如此疯狂地爱着的时候，就不会这样了。
Also, with Hardy, he’s always in love with the unattainable.
此外，哈代总是热爱那些遥不可及的事物。
That’s the whole thing with him.
这就是他的全部事情。
That’s why I think The Well-Beloved is so interesting because it’s the pursuit of the well-beloved that, once you get it, you don’t want it.
这就是为什么我认为《挚爱》如此有趣，因为它是对挚爱的追求，一旦你得到它，你就不再想要它。
I see that in couples counseling a lot.
我在很多夫妻咨询中看到了这一点。
It’s that once you get it — you might have an affair, and then you’ve got what you want.
就是一旦你得到了 ——你可能会发生外遇，然后你就得到了你想要的东西。
Then suddenly all those small, horrible things that you haven’t seen because it’s all been so romantic, like, “Oh, God, he doesn’t brush his teeth before breakfast,” or those tiny things, and the illusion is broken.
然后突然间，所有那些你从未见过的小而可怕的事情，因为这一切都是如此浪漫，比如，“哦，上帝，他早餐前不刷牙”，或者那些小事情，幻觉就破灭了。
Then you’re just back in the same place.
然后你就回到了同一个地方。
I think for me, for Hardy, almost as soon as he married Florence, he was falling in love with somebody else.
我想对我来说，对哈代来说，几乎在他与弗洛伦斯结婚后，他就爱上了别人。
That’s just what he seems to do all throughout his life, that unattainable beauty, because he’s so susceptible to female beauty.
这似乎正是他一生都在做的事情，那种遥不可及的美丽，因为他对女性的美如此敏感。
In your readings, what do you take to be the primary Shakespearean element in Hardy, just subjectively?
在您的阅读中，您主观上认为《哈代》中莎士比亚的主要元素是什么？
I think “There’s a divinity that rough-hews our ends, shape them as you will,” that sense of — I’m thinking again of Tess here as well — the idea that the gods are peevish.
我认为“有一种神灵会粗暴地切割我们的结局，随心所欲地塑造它们”，那种感觉——“我在这里也再次想起了苔丝”——“诸神都是脾气暴躁的”。
They’ve got a plan, and they don’t really care, and that they’re just going to move the pieces of chess on the board.
他们有一个计划，但他们并不真正关心，他们只是要移动棋盘上的棋子。
I think of King Lear as well on that, on the heath.
在荒原上，我也想到了《李尔王》。
I think that sense of fatalism, that sense that almost there’s no free will .
我认为这是一种宿命论，一种几乎没有自由意志的感觉。
.
。
.
。
What could Tess do?
苔丝能做什么呢？
There’s nothing she could do because the gods have got a plan.
她无能为力，因为诸神已经有计划了。
That sense of providence, that is really deeply Shakespearean in Shakespeare’s very dark period, I have to say.
我不得不说，那种天意的感觉，在莎士比亚的黑暗时期确实是莎士比亚的深刻。
As you point out, Hardy never really stopped working until he had to.
正如你所指出的，哈代从来没有真正停止过工作，直到他不得不这样做。
How good is the unknown Hardy?
默默无闻的哈迪到底有多厉害？
It seems to me everyone reads the same few novels.
在我看来，每个人都读同样的几本小说。
What do you recommend from the rest?
其余的你有什么推荐？
I really like the minor works.
我真的很喜欢小作品。
I am going to confess, like everybody else, before I undertook the biography, I read all the big ones.
我要承认，像其他人一样，在我写这本传记之前，我读过所有重要的传记。
Obviously, the first thing I did was set myself to read everything, and I did it in chronological order because I think that’s really important.
显然，我做的第一件事就是让自己阅读所有内容，并且按照时间顺序进行，因为我认为这非常重要。
I always do that.
我总是这样做。
I did that with Evelyn Waugh, just read everything, because you can really see the growth.
我和伊芙琳·沃（Evelyn Waugh）一起这样做了，阅读所有内容，因为你可以真正看到成长。
I do think some of those minor novels are really, really fascinating and not Hardy-esque.
我确实认为其中一些小小说真的非常非常迷人，而不是哈代式的。
Two on a Tower — it’s just so fascinating.
两个人在一座塔上 ——这真是太令人着迷了。
It’s so brilliant, the telegraph and the sense of the new world and innovations.
电报、新世界和创新的感觉真是太棒了。
I really like the minor works, I find them interesting, but above all, I really love the poetry.
我真的很喜欢那些小作品，我觉得它们很有趣，但最重要的是，我真的很喜欢诗歌。
I really, really fell in love with the early poetry written when he was 25 because it’s so modern.
我真的非常喜欢他 25 岁时写的早期诗歌，因为它非常现代。
It was so shocking.
太令人震惊了。
When I read some of those early sonnets, I just thought, “This sounds like somebody is writing it today.” It has the most fresh feel and voice.
当我读到一些早期的十四行诗时，我只是想，“这听起来像是有人今天写的。”它具有最新鲜的感觉和声音。
I would urge anybody who thinks they know Hardy to go back and read those early poems because they’re really quite astonishing.
我会敦促任何自认为了解哈代的人回去阅读那些早期的诗歌，因为它们真的非常令人惊讶。
But I do really like the minor works as well.
但我也很喜欢小作品。
Now, in another book, you argued that Mary Robinson was arguably the most interesting woman of her day in 18th-century England.
现在，在另一本书中，您认为玛丽·罗宾逊可以说是 18 世纪英国那个时代最有趣的女性。
Why?
为什么？
I think because she really understood celebrity even before celebrity had been invented.
我想是因为她甚至在名人被发明之前就真正理解了名人。
She really understood how to market herself, how to fashion herself, how to reinvent herself, and how to support herself.
她真正懂得如何推销自己，如何塑造自己，如何重塑自己，以及如何养活自己。
She was really, I think, a very, very interesting writer.
我认为她真的是一位非常非常有趣的作家。
She understood the importance of image, really, before many, many, many people did and used it to her advantage.
事实上，她早于很多很多人了解形象的重要性并利用它来为她谋取利益。
I think she is, for many, many reasons, so fascinating.
我认为出于很多很多原因，她是如此迷人。
The poetry editor of The Morning Post.
《晨报》诗歌编辑。
She was a prolific writer and poet.
她是一位多产的作家和诗人。
She didn’t let her disability impede her.
她没有让残疾阻碍她。
Just more than anything, I was really frightened of her when I was writing about her.
最重要的是，当我写到她的时候，我真的很害怕她。
I was like, “I don’t ever want to meet this woman.
我当时想，“我不想见到这个女人。
She’s really scary.” I couldn’t wait to get her out of my house when I finished writing about her.
她真的很可怕。”当我写完她的故事时，我迫不及待地想把她带出家门。
I think about her all the time.
我无时无刻不在想着她。
In fact, I’m writing a novel about her in a minute.
事实上，我马上就要写一本关于她的小说。
That’s great.
那太棒了。
Who is arguably the most interesting woman in England today?
谁可以说是当今英格兰最有趣的女性？
Hmm.
唔。
That is such a good question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I don’t really find anybody interesting in England, really.
我真的在英格兰没有发现任何有趣的人，真的。
Katherine Rundell?
凯瑟琳·伦德尔？
Amia Srinivasan?
阿米亚·斯里尼瓦桑？
I would think Katherine Rundell — whether or not one agrees, she would be the obvious first pick.
我认为凯瑟琳·伦德尔（Katherine Rundell）——无论是否有人同意，她显然都是首选。
My mind just goes — I instantly go to people like Sally Rooney, but I don’t really like her.
我的想法就是 — 我立即去找莎莉·鲁尼这样的人，但我真的不喜欢她。
That’s not England.
那不是英格兰。
That’s Ireland, yes, not Great Britain.
是的，那是爱尔兰，不是英国。
You are from Liverpool, right?
你来自利物浦，对吧？
I am from Liverpool.
我来自利物浦。
Well, the other side of the water, Merseyside.
嗯，水的另一边，默西塞德郡。
So, yes.
所以，是的。
They have a lot in common culturally.
他们在文化上有很多共同点。
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
I’ve been living in America for far too long.
我在美国生活太久了。
I’ve been in America for six years.
我来美国六年了。
I’m really not sort of aware of interesting women, much to my shame.
我真的不知道有哪些有趣的女性，这让我感到羞耻。
On Georgian theater’s influence on Jane Austen
论格鲁吉亚戏剧对简·奥斯汀的影响
Now, you’ve had a long-standing interest in Jane Austen.
现在，您对简·奥斯汀已经产生了长期的兴趣。
What’s your sense, if you think of late Georgian theater in England, which was a big influence on Austen, just how good was it?
如果你想到对奥斯汀影响很大的英国乔治亚晚期戏剧，你的感觉是什么？它有多好？
If you or I went to one of those plays, would we be bored?
如果你或我去看其中一场戏剧，我们会感到无聊吗？
Would we think it’s stupid?
我们会认为这很愚蠢吗？
Would we be amazed and wonder why the theater had declined?
我们会感到惊讶并想知道为什么剧院会衰落吗？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
Obviously, it’s guesswork, but you must have a sense.
显然，这是猜测，但你必须有感觉。
I think they did it quite interestingly because they would do like a five-act serious play, and then there would be like a farce, and then there would be a dance.
我认为他们做得很有趣，因为他们会做五幕严肃的戏剧，然后会有一场闹剧，然后会有一场舞蹈。
There was a little bit of something for everybody.
每个人都可以有所收获。
You could go and see your Shakespeare.
你可以去看你的莎士比亚。
I think, particularly in the Georgian era, this is the time when those really great actors, Sarah Siddons and, obviously, Garrick — coming to the end of Garrick — but Edmund Kean, George Cooke, Dora Jordan, these absolutely brilliant actors.
我认为，特别是在格鲁吉亚时代，这是那些真正伟大的演员的时代，莎拉·西登斯，显然还有加里克——“加里克的终结”——但埃德蒙·基恩、乔治·库克、多拉·乔丹，这些绝对出色的演员。
It’s so hard because we don’t know why they were so great.
这太难了，因为我们不知道为什么他们如此伟大。
Jane Austen talks about Edmund Kean in her letters and says, “He’s so natural.” We don’t know what that means.
简·奥斯汀在信中谈到埃德蒙·基恩时说：“他太自然了。”我们不知道这意味着什么。
To us, we think of method acting, don’t we?
对我们来说，我们想到的是方法表演，不是吗？
We might go to Sean Penn or we might go to the great method actors.
我们可能会去找西恩·潘，或者我们可能会去找伟大的方法演员。
When they say, “Oh, he’s so natural,” what does that actually mean?
当他们说“哦，他太自然了”时，这实际上是什么意思？
It can’t mean the same thing that it can mean to us.
它对我们的意义不同。
What I do know is, it wasn’t like declamation and throwing your hands and being over the top.
我所知道的是，这不像是豪言壮语、举手投足、言过其实。
It was tempered down.
它被缓和了。
Jane Austen calls it “real hardened acting.” Good acting is real hardened acting.
简·奥斯汀称之为“真正的硬化表演”。好的演技是真正经过磨炼的演技。
I think you could see some of that.
我想你可以看到其中的一些。
A lot of people just sometimes went for the farce, and the farces, I think, were great.
很多人有时只是去看闹剧，我认为闹剧很棒。
She Stoops to Conquer is hilarious, The Rivals by Sheridan.
《她屈尊征服》很搞笑，谢里登的《对手》。
People would just go and spend — they’d go halfway in and see the last bit of the main play.
人们会直接去消费——他们会中途去看主要剧情的最后一段。
Then they’d see some great farce.
然后他们就会看到一些精彩的闹剧。
I think often people went to see each other.
我想人们经常去看望对方。
They went to look at each other.
他们互相看了看。
There was a lot of gazing around the room, and who’s there?
房间里有很多人在注视着，谁在那里？
What are they wearing?
他们穿什么？
What are they doing?
他们在做什么？
Also, it’s very noisy.
而且，它非常吵。
People didn’t sit there in deference like they do now.
人们并不像现在那样恭敬地坐在那里。
They’ll be chatting and jostling and talking.
他们会聊天、推搡、说话。
It was much more sociable.
它更加社交。
It’s a place where the classes intermingle.
这是一个班级混合的地方。
There aren’t many places like that in Georgian society because it’s so stratified.
格鲁吉亚社会中这样的地方并不多，因为它的分层非常严重。
It’s really fascinating as a sort of social space where you might mistake a prostitute with a fine lady because she’s wearing the clothes of a fine lady because she’s bought them secondhand.
作为一种社交空间，这真的很令人着迷，你可能会将妓女误认为是一位优雅的女士，因为她穿着一位优雅女士的衣服，因为她是二手买的。
You’ve got all these interesting things going on.
所有这些有趣的事情都在发生。
I think it would be really good fun.
我想这会非常有趣。
How is the farce related to Austen?
这场闹剧与奥斯丁有何关系？
She loved farce.
她喜欢闹剧。
In her letters she talks about going to see Don Juan, and it’s a farce, and she’s like — “a compound of cruelty and lust,” she calls it.
在她的信中，她谈到要去见唐璜，这是一场闹剧，她就像“残忍和欲望的混合物”，她称之为“。”
There’s other farces — The Wonder: A Woman Keeps a Secret, not very feminist, by Susanna Centlivre — and she’s laughing, and she says, “The farce really pleased me.”
还有其他闹剧 ——《奇迹：一个女人保守秘密》，不是很女权主义，作者是苏珊娜·森特利夫 ——她笑着说，“这场闹剧真的让我很高兴。”
I think she had quite low taste.
我觉得她品味很低。
I think she was hard to please, so she really liked the farce.
我觉得她很难取悦，所以她真的很喜欢这场闹剧。
Also she used to take the children and the family, so they’d like a good farce.
她还经常带着孩子和家人，所以他们想要一场精彩的闹剧。
I think she was quite eclectic in her taste.
我认为她的品味相当不拘一格。
These clowns were really funny.
这些小丑真的很有趣。
They were really good.
他们真的很好。
As I say, she wasn’t a snob.
正如我所说，她不是一个势利小人。
She wasn’t an intellectual snob.
她不是一个知识分子势利小人。
She did want to see Mrs. Siddons in the great Shakespearean roles, but she also loved comedy.
她确实想看到西登斯夫人扮演伟大的莎士比亚角色，但她也喜欢喜剧。
She is a comic writer, which we all forget about, which is the most important thing to remember about Jane Austen is how funny she is.
她是一位喜剧作家，我们都忘记了这一点，关于简·奥斯汀，最重要的是要记住她是多么有趣。
I argued in my very first book that she could never have been such a good comic writer if she hadn’t watched all these farces, if they hadn’t performed them at home, if she hadn’t read them, because her sense of comic timing is derived from 18th-century theater.
我在我的第一本书中指出，如果她没有看过所有这些闹剧，如果他们没有在家里表演，如果她没有读过它们，她永远不可能成为如此优秀的喜剧作家，因为她的喜剧时机感源自 18 世纪的戏剧。
Pride and Prejudice is so much dialogue, it’s like being at a play.
《傲慢与偏见》充满了对话，就像在看一场戏剧。
Then she used to read her novels aloud.
然后她常常大声朗读她的小说。
That is like being at a play as well.
这也就像在看戏一样。
For me, that was such a big and undervalued influence.
对我来说，这是一个巨大且被低估的影响。
On *Mansfield Park*
在*曼斯菲尔德公园*
How is Mansfield Park set against a background of war, total war, you could say, by the standards of the time?
按照当时的标准，《曼斯菲尔德庄园》是如何以战争、全面战争为背景的？
She’s a war novelist because many of her novels are written in the background of the French wars and the Napoleonic wars.
她是一位战争小说家，因为她的许多小说都是在法国战争和拿破仑战争的背景下写的。
Mansfield Park is particularly — 1814 is a really interesting year.
曼斯菲尔德公园尤其重要——1814 年是非常有趣的一年。
There’s some very interesting books being written in that year.
那一年写了一些非常有趣的书。
It happens to be my favorite Jane Austen novel, Mansfield Park.
这恰好是我最喜欢的简·奥斯汀小说《曼斯菲尔德庄园》。
I know everybody hates it, but I really love it.
我知道每个人都讨厌它，但我真的很喜欢它。
I find it so different to the others and so much more serious and so much more interesting.
我发现它与其他人非常不同，而且更严肃、更有趣。
Although she’s not a war novelist, but it infiltrates.
虽然她不是战争小说家，但它却渗透其中。
It’s so turbulent.
太动荡了。
You know that something is always happening in the shadow hinterlands.
你知道在暗影腹地总是会发生一些事情。
You get that feeling with Mansfield Park of great unease, I think, that the house itself is corrupt.
我想，在曼斯菲尔德庄园，你会感受到一种极度不安的感觉，那就是这座房子本身已经腐败了。
I’ve always felt that the Crawfords coming in and corrupting the house isn’t what’s really going on.
我一直觉得克劳福德一家进来并破坏房子并不是真正发生的事情。
It’s the house that’s corrupt, and the house is built on the spoils of the slave trade.
腐败的是房子，而房子是建立在奴隶贸易的战利品上的。
I think it’s much more interestingly, politically .
我认为这在政治上更有趣。
.
。
.
。
Of course, she’s got two brothers —
当然，她还有两个兄弟 ——
The trips to Antigua, they’re to slave plantations?
去安提瓜岛的旅行，是去奴隶种植园吗？
Yes, very clearly, and she says so.
是的，非常清楚，她也是这么说的。
Sir Thomas — the house is built — it’s a new house, Mansfield; it’s built on the spoils of the slave trade.
托马斯爵士 ——“房子建成了”——“这是一座新房子，曼斯菲尔德；”它是建立在奴隶贸易的战利品之上的。
He goes out because there’s unrest.
他出去是因为骚乱。
We don’t know what that is, but there were enslaved riots happening at that time, especially in Antigua.
我们不知道那是什么，但当时发生了奴隶骚乱，特别是在安提瓜岛。
He takes his wild son with him in the hope to get him away from wild company, which doesn’t work.
他带着他野性的儿子，希望他能远离野性的陪伴，但这是行不通的。
I think you always get that sense of the spoils of the slave trade.
我想你总能体会到奴隶贸易的战利品。
Then, of course, Fanny is the only one brave enough to ask Sir Thomas, when he comes back, she asks the question about the slave trade.
当然，范妮是唯一一个有勇气问托马斯爵士的人，当他回来时，她问了有关奴隶贸易的问题。
Nobody else is really interested.
没有人真正感兴趣。
They don’t want to talk more about it, but she does.
他们不想更多地谈论这件事，但她愿意。
It’s a very important moment in the novel that this shy, timid, diffident little girl is the one who says, “Tell me more about what’s happening with the slave trade.”
小说中一个非常重要的时刻是，这个害羞、胆怯、缺乏自信的小女孩说：“告诉我更多关于奴隶贸易的情况。”
Again, the Lord Mansfield connection.
再次，曼斯菲尔德勋爵的联系。
Anybody reading Mansfield Park is going to think of Lord Mansfield and his role in the abolition of the slave trade.
任何读过《曼斯菲尔德庄园》的人都会想到曼斯菲尔德勋爵和他在废除奴隶贸易中所扮演的角色。
That’s about the nearest, I think, she does come to politics.
我认为，这大概是她最接近从政的一次了。
She stays away from it, a bit like me, but it’s there.
她远离它，有点像我，但它就在那里。
It all seems political to me, just the relationships between the sexes and class and who does what to get ahead.
对我来说，这一切似乎都是政治性的，只是性别和阶级之间的关系，以及谁为了取得成功而做什么。
I’m not sure if she sees a relevant alternative, but it’s mostly an indictment, as I read these novels.
我不确定她是否看到了相关的替代方案，但当我读到这些小说时，这主要是一种起诉。
Yes, I would agree.
是的，我同意。
She was an abolitionist, right?
她是废奴主义者，对吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
She was obsessed with this really interesting man called Thomas Clarkson who wrote the first history of the slave trade.
她痴迷于托马斯·克拉克森（Thomas Clarkson）这个非常有趣的人，他写下了第一部奴隶贸易的历史。
Also from Liverpool, or he went round Liverpool.
同样来自利物浦，或者说他绕遍了利物浦。
He might have been from Liverpool, I can’t remember.
他可能来自利物浦，我不记得了。
She was obsessed with Thomas Clarkson, who was the first person to argue that, instead of slave and human traffic, if you want to trade with Africa, you could do this with goods, with beads, with clothes, with all sorts of different things.
她痴迷于托马斯·克拉克森，他是第一个提出这样的观点的人：如果你想与非洲进行贸易，你可以用货物、珠子、衣服和各种不同的东西来代替奴隶和人口贩运。
She absolutely, I think, abhorred the slave trade and everything it stood for.
我认为她绝对憎恶奴隶贸易及其所代表的一切。
When does the opium trade pop up in her novels?
她的小说中何时出现鸦片贸易？
Does it?
是吗？
Persuasion?
劝说？
Maybe I’m misremembering.
也许我记错了。
Anyway, we will ask ChatGPT —
不管怎样，我们会问ChatGPT ——
I don’t know.
我不知道。
— in our spare time when we’re done.
—— 在我们完成工作后的空闲时间。
Definitely.
确实。
You recommend a movie, Patricia Rozema’s version of Mansfield Park, which is now in my to-watch list.
你推荐了一部电影，帕特里夏·罗泽玛版的《曼斯菲尔德庄园》，它现在在我的观看列表中。
Why is that more interesting and vital than most other Austen adaptations?
为什么这比大多数其他奥斯汀改编作品更有趣、更重要？
I think at the time — it was quite a while ago I saw it, and it did feel very refreshing because it really engaged with the politics.
我想当时————我已经看了很久了，确实感觉很耳目一新，因为它确实与政治有关。
It engaged with the slave trade.
它参与了奴隶贸易。
I think it revealed Fanny as more spirited.
我认为这表明范妮更加有活力。
It’s not a faithful adaptation, put it that way.
这么说吧，这不是一个忠实的改编。
I know it really did divide people.
我知道这确实造成了人们的分裂。
At the time, I was like, “It’s really fun, it’s really risqué, and it’s fresh.” But then I saw it again recently, and I was a little disappointed.
当时我就想，“这真的很有趣，真的很下流，而且很新鲜。”但最近我又看到了，心里有点失望。
I was like, “Oh, it’s not as brilliant.” You know how you go back to a film that you love and you think, “Oh, that’s so great,” and you go back and you’re like, “Eh”?
我当时想，“哦，它没那么出色。”你知道当你回到一部你喜欢的电影时你会想，“哦，那太棒了”，然后你回去后你会说，“呃”？
I don’t think anybody has really got Mansfield Park right, but there was something very new and fresh and vivid about the way that she filmed it as well.
我认为没有人真正正确地理解了《曼斯菲尔德庄园》，但她拍摄的方式也有一些非常新颖、新鲜和生动的东西。
Filmically, it’s really interesting.
从电影角度来看，这真的很有趣。
I really liked her depiction of Tom Bertram, the wayward son, and his engagement with the slave trade.
我真的很喜欢她对汤姆·伯特伦这个任性的儿子以及他参与奴隶贸易的描述。
I really liked the way Harold Pinter — because Harold Pinter played Sir Thomas.
我真的很喜欢哈罗德·品特的表演方式——因为哈罗德·品特扮演托马斯爵士。
He was a bully, which I’ve always felt that Sir Thomas is a bully.
他是一个恶霸，我一直觉得托马斯爵士是一个恶霸。
She took lots of risks.
她冒了很多风险。
Ultimately, she doesn’t get Fanny right.
最终，她没有理解范妮的意思。
I just felt at the time, keep it fresh, keep it relevant.
我当时只是觉得，保持新鲜感，保持相关性。
We don’t have to be so faithful, and we don’t have to be all frocks and smocks in big houses.
我们不必那么忠诚，也不必在大房子里穿着长袍和罩衫。
Every Jane Austen adaptation, the house is way bigger than what it would have been.
每一部简·奥斯汀的改编作品，房子都比原来大得多。
She’s not interested in aristocrats.
她对贵族不感兴趣。
She’s interested in gentility.
她对温柔很感兴趣。
They’ve always got it wrong.
他们总是弄错了。
The films I like — I love Clueless.
我喜欢的电影 — 我喜欢《独领风骚》。
Clueless is the best adaptation because it’s so funny.
《独领风骚》是最好的改编，因为它太有趣了。
She just gets the funniness.
她只是觉得有趣。
That’s the really important thing.
这才是真正重要的事情。
Clueless is so great.
无知真是太棒了
That has never lost its charm for me.
这对我来说从未失去它的魅力。
On British fastidiousness
论英国人的挑剔
Your book on Evelyn Waugh, the phrase pops up, and I quote, “naturally fastidious.” Why can it be said that so many British people are naturally fastidious?
你关于伊芙琳·沃（Evelyn Waugh）的书里突然出现了这句话，我引用一下，“天生挑剔”。为什么可以说那么多英国人天生挑剔呢？
Your questions are so crazy.
你的问题太疯狂了。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Did I say that?
我有这么说过吗？
COWEN: I think Evelyn Waugh said it, not you.
COWEN：我认为是 Evelyn Waugh 说的，不是你说的。
It’s in the book.
这是书上的。
Give me the context of that.
请告诉我当时的背景。
Oh, I’d have to go back and look.
哦，我得回去看看。
It’s just in my memory.
这只是在我的记忆中。
That’s really funny.
这真的很有趣。
It’s a great phrase.
这是一个很棒的短语。
We can evaluate the claim on its own terms, right?
我们可以根据索赔本身的条件来评估索赔，对吗？
Yes, we can.
是的，我们可以。
I’m not sure they are anymore.
我不确定他们现在还是这样。
It seems maybe they once were, but the stiff-upper-lip tradition seems weaker with time.
看起来也许他们曾经是这样的，但随着时间的推移，这种坚忍不拔的传统似乎变得越来越弱。
The stiff upper lip.
上唇僵硬。
Yes, I think Evelyn Waugh would be appalled with the way England has gone.
是的，我认为伊芙琳·沃会对英格兰的现状感到震惊。
Naturally fastidious, yes, it’s different to reticent, isn’t it?
天生挑剔，是的，这和沉默寡言不同，不是吗？
Fastidious — hard to please, it means, doesn’t it?
挑剔 —— 很难取悦，这意味着，不是吗？
Naturally hard to please.
自然很难取悦。
I think that’s quite true, certainly of Evelyn Waugh because he was naturally fastidious.
我认为这是千真万确的，尤其是伊芙琳·沃，因为他生来就很挑剔。
That literally sums him up in a phrase.
这实际上用一句话概括了他。
If I go to Britain as an American, I very much have the feeling that people derive status from having negative opinions more than positive.
如果我作为美国人去英国，我会非常有这样的感觉：人们通过消极观点而不是积极观点来获得地位。
That’s quite different from this country.
这与这个国家有很大不同。
Would you agree with that?
你同意吗？
I would.
我会的。
I would agree.
我同意。
I think one of the things I have always loved about America was that — I know it’s such a cliche about Americans have this sense of positivity and you can do anything, but it’s true.
我认为我一直喜欢美国的一件事就是 — 我知道美国人有这种积极的感觉，你可以做任何事情，这是一种陈词滥调，但这是事实。
I do find, in England, there is a real ill, dour, putting you down or putting you in your place, but I like that as well.
我确实发现，在英国，有一种真正的病态、阴沉、贬低你或把你放在自己的位置上，但我也喜欢这样。
Like with Scouse humor, it’s very much keep you in your place.
就像苏格兰人的幽默一样，它可以让你保持在自己的位置上。
Don’t get too big for your boots.
不要让靴子太大。
I like it because I think the opposite of that is what the phoniness of Americans is like.
我喜欢它，因为我认为美国人的虚伪恰恰相反。
When you go to LA and everyone is like, “Oh, my God, you’re so beautiful.
当你去洛杉矶时，每个人都会说：“哦，天哪，你太漂亮了。
That is amazing,” and like, “Oh, my God,” and you just think, “You don’t mean a word of what’s coming out your lips.” I think the balance — New York feels like the balance is pretty right.
这太神奇了，”然后你就会想，“哦，天啊”，然后你就会想，“你嘴里说的话一点都不是真的。”我认为平衡 —— 纽约感觉这种平衡非常正确。
When did that start in Britain?
英国什么时候开始这样的？
Does it exist at the peak of Victorian Britain?
它存在于维多利亚时代英国的鼎盛时期吗？
One doesn’t feel it in John Stuart Mill or many other writers.
人们在约翰·斯图尔特·密尔或许多其他作家身上感受不到这一点。
What’s the evolution of that?
它的演变过程是怎样的？
You’ve written British biographies about a number of different eras.
您写过许多不同时代的英国传记。
You mean the stiff upper lip?
你指的是僵硬的上唇吗？
Well, the negativity as a means of conferring status upon yourself.
好吧，消极情绪是一种赋予自己地位的手段。
It’s slightly tall poppy syndrome, that you don’t want to big someone up too much because it makes you feel small, and it takes your light away from you if you are a tall poppy.
这是一种高大罂粟综合症，你不想把某人夸大太多，因为这会让你感觉自己很渺小，如果你是一朵高大的罂粟花，它会让你的光芒远离你。
I think it is tied in with something that I’ve really come to value the older I’ve got, which is English reticence and English diffidence.
我认为这与我随着年龄的增长而真正重视的一些东西有关，那就是英国人的沉默寡言和英国人的缺乏自信。
Actually, the older I get, the more I’m like, “I really like that because it does feel very intrinsic to who I am as a British person,” which is — and you might say negative, I might say realistic.
事实上，我年纪越大，我就越喜欢，“我真的很喜欢这样，因为它确实感觉非常符合我作为一个英国人的本质”，这是 - 你可能会说消极，我可能会说现实。
You might say pessimistic, I might say honest.
你可能会说悲观，我可能会说诚实。
It just depends how we define these things.
这仅取决于我们如何定义这些东西。
I think when someone gives you a compliment, or to me, they mean it in England.
我认为当有人赞美你时，或者对我来说，他们是认真的。
They mean it because they very rarely give you one.
他们是认真的，因为他们很少给你一个。
I’m like, “Oh, you must really mean that.” That has value.
我想，“哦，你一定是这个意思。”那是有价值的。
I think that stiff upper lip has value.
我认为僵硬的上唇是有价值的。
As a therapist, it also does not have value.
作为治疗师，它也没有价值。
As a therapist, family secrets are the worst thing that you can ever do to it.
作为治疗师，家庭秘密是你能做的最糟糕的事情。
I see both sides of it, if that makes sense.
我看到事情的两面，如果这有道理的话。
In terms of the novel and in terms of the great writers, I think you are right about that.
就小说和伟大作家而言，我认为你是对的。
There is a such a deep pessimism, a strain that runs through.
有一种如此深刻的悲观主义，一种贯穿其中的压力。
However, as with Evelyn Waugh and Jane Austen, you always get that leavened with satire, with humor, with “Don’t take yourself too seriously.” I think that’s the great British sin: Don’t take yourself too seriously.
然而，就像伊芙琳·沃和简·奥斯汀一样，你总是会因为讽刺、幽默和“别把自己太当回事”而得到启发。我认为这是英国人最大的罪孽：不要太认真地对待自己。
If you take yourself too seriously, you’re doomed.
如果你太认真对待自己，你就注定失败。
Do you read Waugh as actually a snob and a misanthrope, or is that a put-on and that actually he’s very good-natured about humanity?
你是否认为沃实际上是一个势利小人和厌世者，或者这是一个装腔作势的人，实际上他对人性非常友善？
The latter.
后者。
I completely think it’s put on.
我完全认为它已经穿上了。
I argued this really strongly in my book, that everything was a joke.
我在书中非常强烈地论证了这一点，一切都是个笑话。
Everything was up for a joke.
一切都成了笑话。
He played the part of the grumpy colonel, which he talked about himself.
他扮演脾气暴躁的上校的角色，他自己也谈到过这个角色。
Deep down, he was incredibly kind to his friends.
在内心深处，他对他的朋友非常友善。
He was deeply sensitive.
他非常敏感。
He wasn’t a snob.
他不是一个势利小人。
Again, he makes fun of the aristocracy in Brideshead, even though people don’t always see that.
他再次取笑故园的贵族，尽管人们并不总是看到这一点。
I don’t think he was any of those things.
我不认为他是那些人。
I think he was a snob about cleverness.
我认为他对聪明很势利。
I think he was a bit of an intellectual snob.
我认为他是一位知识分子势利小人。
I think if you were really stupid, he wouldn’t have much time for you, and maybe that’s a British thing too, but he really valued wit and good conversation.
我想如果你真的很蠢，他不会有太多时间陪你，也许这也是英国人的事情，但他真的很看重智慧和良好的谈话。
But it didn’t matter whether you were — during the war, his bagman adored him.
但无论你是不是——在战争期间，他的推销员都很崇拜他。
There’s an interview where they’re trying to get this bagman to sort of say, “Oh, he’s a horrible snob, wasn’t he?” He said, “No, he is absolutely lovely.” “Did he shout at you?
在一次采访中，他们试图让这个推销员说：“哦，他是个可怕的势利小人，不是吗？”他说：“不，他真的很可爱。” “他对你大喊大叫吗？
Was he horrible to you during the war?” “No, no, no. He couldn’t have been kinder.” He was somebody who knew him intimately during the war.
战争期间他对你来说很可怕吗？” “不，不，不。他再仁慈不过了。”他是战争期间非常了解他的人。
He just did not have a bad word to say about him.
他只是没有说他的坏话。
It’s become a bit of a parody, and he became a bit of a parody of himself.
这已经成为一种模仿，而他也成为了他自己的模仿。
He parodied himself, but I think he played that part.
他模仿了自己，但我认为他扮演了那个角色。
For me, he certainly was not a snob.
对我来说，他当然不是一个势利小人。
On the biography of biographers
论传记作家的传记
If I understand your life history correctly, you and your husband come from very different status bands in British society.
如果我对你的生活史的理解正确的话，你和你的丈夫来自英国社会中截然不同的地位阶层。
How do you think that shapes the books and biographies you write?
您认为这对您所写的书籍和传记有何影响？
We’re both interested in social class, but if you live in England you are, because it permeates everything.
我们都对社会阶层感兴趣，但如果你住在英国，你就会感兴趣，因为它渗透到一切。
Another thing I really love about America is — and I know there is an American class system, I know that — but I’ve always felt very free in America because people don’t judge me by my accent.
我真正喜欢美国的另一件事是 — 我知道有一个美国的阶级制度，我知道 — 但我在美国一直感到很自由，因为人们不会根据我的口音来评判我。
Whereas in England, you are instantly, or you were instantly, judged by, “Oh, you’re a Northerner.
而在英国，你立刻就会被人评判，“哦，你是北方人。
That means that you steal things,” or “You’re a Northerner.
这意味着你偷东西，”或者“你是北方人。
That means that you’re stupid.” I’ve never got that in America.
那说明你很蠢。”我在美国从来没有这样过。
My husband and I have always been really fascinated — we come from different classes, different backgrounds, but the great unifying thing for us always was books and literature and art and music and all the things that we have in common.
我和我丈夫一直非常着迷——我们来自不同的阶层、不同的背景，但对我们来说最伟大的统一因素始终是书籍、文学、艺术和音乐以及我们所有的共同点。
It does shape the writing because I’m interested in people who write about social class — Jane Austen, Evelyn Waugh.
它确实塑造了写作，因为我对写社会阶层的人感兴趣——简·奥斯汀、伊芙琳·沃。
Barbara Pym, yes.
芭芭拉·皮姆，是的。
Now, obviously, I’m drawn to those writers, and same with him.
现在，显然，我被那些作家所吸引，对他也是如此。
Do you have the sense that, in your books, you’re working through something about your own life and your own history, and that’s what you have to get out?
你是否有一种感觉，在你的书中，你正在经历一些关于你自己的生活和你自己的历史的事情，而这就是你必须摆脱的？
By doing it indirectly, there’s some way you can psychologically resolve that where it won’t quite work so directly.
通过间接地这样做，你可以通过某种方式从心理上解决它无法直接发挥作用的问题。
I agree, yes.
我同意，是的。
Because I feel that way about my books, that I’m always writing about myself in some ways.
因为我对我的书有这样的感觉，我总是以某种方式写我自己。
A hundred percent.
百分之一百。
I’ve said it many, many times, that all biographers are writing autobiographies.
我已经说过很多很多次了，所有传记作家都在写自传。
Even the fact that you choose to write about these certain people, it’s something that appeals to you or you may have been shaped by.
即使你选择写这些特定的人，这也是吸引你的东西，或者你可能已经被它塑造了。
I was really fascinated — going back to the Hardy book for a moment, I was really interested in working-class women’s stories because I come from that background.
我真的很着迷——回到哈代的书，我对工人阶级女性的故事很感兴趣，因为我来自那个背景。
The background I come from, it’s very matriarchal, it’s Catholic, it’s women had a lot of power.
我的背景是，非常母权制，天主教，女性拥有很大的权力。
I could never understand middle-class women saying women have no power because I was like, “Oh my God, you’ve never been in my family,” because they were always the storytellers.
我永远无法理解中产阶级女性说女性没有权力，因为我当时想，“天哪，你从来没有加入过我的家庭，”因为她们总是讲故事的人。
They were really — the men were really not as strong as the women.
他们真的是——男人真的不如女人强壮。
I was really fascinated by female lore in Thomas Hardy.
我对托马斯·哈代的女性传说非常着迷。
What are these stories that go through the generations?
这些代代相传的故事有哪些？
Do we believe them, these illegitimate children?
我们相信他们这些私生子吗？
I was always interested in giving people a voice.
我一直对让人们发出声音很感兴趣。
I wouldn’t be drawn to that if I hadn’t had that background because I know that’s how women talk and speak.
如果我没有这样的背景，我就不会被这个吸引，因为我知道这就是女人说话的方式。
I think Hardy was really fascinated by working-class women and their strength of character and their stories and all those things.
我认为哈代真的对工人阶级女性、她们的性格力量、她们的故事以及所有这些东西很着迷。
I think you’re completely right.
我认为你是完全正确的。
I don’t think there’s a single book I’ve written where I feel cold, where I feel like I don’t know this world or I don’t share something of myself.
我不认为我写过的任何一本书都让我感到冷淡、让我觉得我不了解这个世界或者我不分享自己的某些东西。
I think it’s just a fallacy to say, “Oh, I’m really objective.
我认为说“哦，我真的很客观”是一个谬论。
I wrote that book and I’m so objective.” I just don’t think it works like that.
我写了那本书，而且我很客观。”我只是不认为它是这样工作的。
I think you see things that you think, “Ah, okay.
我想你看到的东西你会想：“啊，好吧。
That’s really fascinating.” Somebody else might say something completely different and not see it.
这真的很令人着迷。”其他人可能会说一些完全不同的东西，但看不到它。
For me, there’s always my own autobiography, and I hope it doesn’t distort it too much, but I have to be —
对我来说，总有我自己的自传，我希望它不要扭曲太多，但我必须 ——
No, that’s great.
不，那太好了。
I love that in the books.
我喜欢书中的内容。
I don’t know you at all, but I feel as if I know you just reading the biographies.
我根本不认识你，但我只是看了传记就感觉好像认识你。
Oh, that’s a lovely thing to say.
哦，这是一件很可爱的事。
Thank you.
谢谢。
A related question: Does Paul McCartney still have a Liverpudlian accent?
一个相关的问题：保罗·麦卡特尼还有利物浦口音吗？
Because he pretends not to.
因为他假装不知道。
If you listen to 1963 Paul McCartney and a more recent Paul McCartney, it’s a very different way of speaking.
如果你听 1963 年的保罗·麦卡特尼和最近的保罗·麦卡特尼，你会发现这是一种非常不同的说话方式。
But underneath, do you still hear that he’s from Liverpool?
但在底下，你还听说他来自利物浦吗？
Oh, hundred percent.
哦，百分之百。
See, the thing is, I just think he sounds so Scouse to this day.
瞧，问题是，我只是觉得他至今听起来还是那么酷。
It’s softened because, a bit like me — I haven’t lived in Merseyside since I was 18, really.
它之所以软化，是因为，有点像我 —— 我从 18 岁起就没有在默西塞德住过，真的。
I came back for a bit and then moved away again.
我回来了一会儿，然后又离开了。
I really hear his accent, but I know what you’re saying.
我真的听到他的口音，但我知道你在说什么。
Those early — the accent’s really thick and it’s very guttural.
那些早期的——口音真的很重而且很喉音。
It’s right back from the throat.
它就从喉咙回来。
And it’s softened, but to me, I so hear that accent.
它已经柔和了，但对我来说，我听到了那种口音。
I’m like, “Oh, my God, he’s so Scouse.”
我当时想，“哦，天哪，他真是个苏格兰人。”
On the poison pen episode
关于毒笔情节
Could you explain to me, as an American, what you’ve called the poison pen episode?
作为一个美国人，你能向我解释一下你所谓的“毒笔事件”吗？
Your husband has a governance post at Oxford, and you’re there with him, and someone starts writing these nasty letters about you.
你的丈夫在牛津大学担任管理职位，而你和他在一起，有人开始写这些关于你的讨厌的信。
Now, people write nasty comments on the internet about me every day, basically, and no one cares.
现在，基本上每天都有人在互联网上写关于我的恶毒评论，但没有人在乎。
In the society you’re in, this is somehow an event.
在你所处的社会中，这在某种程度上是一个事件。
There’s multiple newspaper stories about it.
报纸上有很多关于此事的报道。
You end up writing a novel partly based on these events.
你最终写了一部部分基于这些事件的小说。
How is it that the poison pen letters have force?
毒笔字怎么会有力量呢？
It’s very puzzling to me.
这让我很困惑。
Again, I really like this line of questioning.
再说一遍，我真的很喜欢这种提问方式。
And I think there’s something powerful about somebody who takes the trouble to go and buy a nice sheet of paper and a first-class stamp — oh, and I’ll tell you a really funny story about that in a minute — and write this beautiful letter — care and precision have been thought about — and then you go and you take it to the post box and you post it.
我认为，一个人不厌其烦地去买一张漂亮的纸和一张一流的邮票 —— 哦，我一会儿就给你讲一个非常有趣的故事 —— 写下这封美丽的信 —— 考虑到了谨慎和精确 ——然后你就去把它带到邮政信箱，然后寄出去。
Come on, Tyler.
来吧，泰勒。
That is not like writing, “Tyler, you suck,” on a tweet.
这不像在推特上写“泰勒，你太糟糕了”。
It’s really not the same thing.
这确实不是一回事。
I remember when it first happened — the same thing had happened to my best friend, who’s a clergyman in London.
我记得它第一次发生的时候——同样的事情也发生在我最好的朋友身上，他是伦敦的一名牧师。
I called him up and I was like, “Oh, my God, I’ve got a poison pen letter.”
我打电话给他，我说：“哦，天哪，我收到了一封毒笔信。”
We were talking about the power of this, the question you just made, and he said, “Darling, there’s one question I have to ask you.” He said, “Did they send it first class?” It’s so British, this response, by the way.
我们正在谈论这个的力量，你刚才提出的问题，他说，“亲爱的，我有一个问题要问你。”他说：“他们送的是头等舱吗？”顺便说一句，这个回应太英国了。
“A first-class stamp or a second-class stamp?” I said, “Well, it actually was a second-class stamp.” He said, “Oh, yes.
“一等邮票还是二等邮票？”我说：“嗯，这实际上是一张二等邮票。”他说：“哦，是的。
Cheap as well as vicious.”
既便宜又恶毒。”
How good was the penmanship?
文笔有多好？
Oh, it was superb.
哦，太棒了。
I knew straight away it was an academic because it was so clever.
我立刻就知道这是一位学者，因为它太聪明了。
I knew it was a woman because it was so clever and bitchy.
我知道那是个女人，因为她很聪明，也很恶毒。
Sorry, people, but there you go.
抱歉，各位，但是就这样吧。
Did you ever find out who it was?
你有查出那人是谁吗？
I did.
我做到了。
You found out factually, or you just inferred, in a Bayesian sense, who it must be?
你事实上发现了，或者你只是从贝叶斯意义上推断，它一定是谁？
No, I flushed this person out via Twitter.
不，我通过 Twitter 赶走了这个人。
She eventually made a mistake.
她最终犯了一个错误。
She posted a letter where there was a camera.
她在有相机的地方贴了一封信。
It was by registered post, so she made a mistake.
由于是挂号信，所以她弄错了。
I pretended that I had camera footage, which I didn’t.
我假装我有摄像机镜头，但我没有。
I tweeted it and said, “Sorry, you’ve been caught.
我发推文说：“抱歉，你被抓住了。
I know who you are.
我知道你是谁。
We’ve got CCTV camera.
我们有闭路电视摄像机。
You better ’fess up,” and she ’fessed up.
你最好“坦白”，她也“坦白”。
I sued her as well.
我也起诉了她。
I didn’t want it to go to court because she was clearly unwell and I didn’t want to do that, but it got very far.
我不想把事情告上法庭，因为她显然身体不适，我也不想这么做，但事情已经闹得很远了。
It did get very far and full apology.
它确实得到了非常彻底和充分的道歉。
What do you take to be the true motive behind it?
您认为其背后的真正动机是什么？
Just viciousness, or mental illness, or .
只是恶毒，或者精神疾病，或者。
.
。
.
。
?
？
A little bit of viciousness, a lot of mental illness.
一点恶毒，很多精神病。
I think it was someone whose life hadn’t really turned out the way she’d expected.
我认为这个人的生活并没有真正按照她的预期发展。
There was a little bit of envy, I don’t know why, but felt like there was “it should have been me” sort of thing and really wanting to put me down.
有一点嫉妒，我不知道为什么，但感觉有一种“应该是我”之类的东西，真的很想贬低我。
Again, that class and that British class thing, that “Who are you to be parading around Oxford as a provost’s wife?” Who knows?
再说一次，那个阶级和那个英国阶级的事情，“你是谁，竟然以教务长的妻子的身份在牛津到处炫耀？”谁知道？
Because I never had met this person.
因为我从来没有见过这个人。
I did not know this person.
我不认识这个人。
It was just, “Why would you even do that?” Everything was from Twitter.
只是，“你为什么要这么做？”一切都来自推特。
Talking about Twitter, it was my Twitter novel because I figured out early, I was like, “Oh, my God, this person doesn’t know me.” I was like, “Everything that’s in these letters are things that I’ve tweeted,” and that was the case, as it happened.
说到 Twitter，这是我的 Twitter 小说，因为我很早就发现，我当时想，“哦，天哪，这个人不认识我。”我当时想，“这些信中的所有内容都是我在推特上发布的内容”，事实就是如此。
Little link there with our Twitter experiences, Tyler.
泰勒，这与我们的 Twitter 经历几乎没有联系。
How many letters were there?
有多少个字母？
I think there were maybe about 20 over a five-year period.
我认为五年内大约有 20 个。
That’s a lot of letters.
这是很多字母。
That’s a lot of penmanship.
这是很多文笔。
They were very long.
它们很长。
That’s how I knew it was a boring academic, because they were so long and convoluted.
这就是我知道这是一门无聊的学术，因为它们又长又复杂。
I was like, “Oh, for God’s sake.
我当时想，“哦，看在上帝的份上。
Typical academics, never write any books and whinge and take all their long holidays” — sorry, everyone’s going to absolutely kill me for this — “and don’t actually do —
典型的学者，从不写任何书，发牢骚，享受所有的长假” - 抱歉，每个人都会因此杀了我 - “而且实际上不这样做 -
No, I love it.
不，我喜欢它。
They’ll love it.
他们会喜欢的。
Keep on going.
继续前进。
“ — then don’t even do anything.” I was like, “You’re writing me these 30-page letters.
「 —— 那就什么都不要做。」我当时想，“你给我写了这些 30 页的信。
Why didn’t you write a book, love?
亲爱的，你为什么不写一本书？
Just do something with your life.” I knew it was a female academic, and it was.
用你的生命做点什么吧。”我知道这是一位女学者，确实如此。
It just took so much of her time.
这花了她太多时间。
She later said alcohol had played a part.
她后来说酒精起了一定作用。
I think she would just get completely smashed and then decide to take me down and write these letters.
我想她会彻底崩溃，然后决定把我打倒并写这些信。
Honestly, they were hilarious.
老实说，他们很搞笑。
They were so funny that I was like, “I have to use these letters in a book.
它们太有趣了，我就想，“我必须在一本书中使用这些字母。
This is a waste.
这是一种浪费。
This is so, so funny, this stalking of me.” I was like, “It’s hilarious.” It was so bonkers.
跟踪我真是太好笑了。”我当时想，“这太搞笑了。”太疯狂了。
It was like Baby Reindeer before Baby Reindeer.
就像小驯鹿之前的小驯鹿一样。
Now, if I had known of this at the time, I would’ve inferred that you were a nonconformist and, in some way, some mix of quite interesting and ambitious, and wanted to meet you.
现在，如果我当时知道这一点，我就会推断你是一个不墨守成规的人，在某种程度上，是一个非常有趣和雄心勃勃的人，并且想见到你。
Did other people in England react that way?
英国其他人也有这样的反应吗？
Did you become a heroine, or did they just assume the letters were somehow some correct critique of you?
你成为了女英雄，还是他们只是认为这些信在某种程度上是对你的正确批评？
Oh, I don’t think I was a heroine at all.
哦，我根本不认为我是女主角。
I was absolutely vilified.
我绝对被诽谤了。
I think so many people were just really not happy that I went public.
我想很多人对我上市并不高兴。
When I wrote the novel, I was a little bit critical of Oxford as an institution, and that really didn’t do me any favors.
当我写这本小说时，我对牛津这个机构有点批评，这确实没有给我带来任何好处。
No, I did not get many admirers.
不，我没有得到很多崇拜者。
It wasn’t my greatest career move.
这不是我职业生涯中最伟大的举动。
However, I wanted to flush her out, and I wanted her to stop.
然而，我想把她赶出去，我想让她停下来。
I was absolutely determined that something positive would come out of this horrible — because it is distressing.
我绝对坚信，这种可怕的事情会带来积极的结果——因为它令人痛苦。
I know I make light of it, but it is really, really horrible.
我知道我轻视了它，但这真的非常非常可怕。
It was so nasty and vicious and cruel.
这是如此的肮脏、恶毒和残忍。
Then you just think, “Who is it?” Then you start thinking, “Is it my friend, or is it so and so?” You do become quite paranoid.
然后你就会想：“这是谁？”然后你开始想：“这是我的朋友，还是某某人？”你确实变得相当偏执。
I really feel sorry for famous people because I’m like, they must get this all the time, and then who do you trust?
我真的为名人感到难过，因为我想，他们必须一直得到这个，然后你信任谁？
It’s hard enough in an Oxford college to trust anybody because they’re all such backstabbers.
在牛津大学里，要相信任何人已经够难的了，因为他们都是背后中伤者。
I was like, “Oh, my God, what if it’s somebody who sees me every day?” You do become a little bit paranoid.
我当时想，“天哪，如果有人每天都看到我怎么办？”你确实变得有点偏执了。
But I think writing the novel was cathartic, and it did enable me to step back from it and say, “Come on, this is actually quite funny.” I didn’t get any people saying good — just a couple of people went, “Good on you.
但我认为写这本小说是一种宣泄，它确实让我能够退后一步说：“来吧，这实际上很有趣。”我没有听到任何人说好——只有几个人说：“你真好。
Good on you for doing that,” but not many.
你这样做很好，”但并不多。
Do you think there’s some element of jealousy?
你认为其中有嫉妒的成分吗？
That you are Lady Bate, and that in some sense someone feels that’s not deserved, and it’s a sort of protest.
你是贝特夫人，从某种意义上说，有人觉得这是不值得的，这是一种抗议。
Hundred percent.
百分之百。
I think they think I’m Lady Docker from Liverpool.
我想他们认为我是来自利物浦的多克夫人。
I think they think, “Who the hell does she think she is?” Those things don’t matter anything — to me, that was Jonathan’s accolade, and he deserved it.
我想他们会想：“她以为她到底是谁？”这些事情并不重要——对我来说，这是乔纳森的荣誉，他应得的。
Getting a title from that is not my title.
从中获得头衔不是我的头衔。
It’s lovely for him, and I support him, and I think he deserved it.
这对他来说很可爱，我支持他，我认为他应得的。
I think he’s only the second person to be knighted for services to literature.
我认为他是第二个因对文学做出贡献而被封为爵士的人。
I was so proud of him, but it wasn’t mine.
我为他感到骄傲，但这不是我的。
I definitely think there were some people, particularly in Oxford and Cambridge, who were really, really angry about it and really thought — because I am outspoken, Tyler.
我确实认为有些人，特别是在牛津和剑桥，他们对此非常非常愤怒，并且真的认为“因为我很直言不讳，泰勒。”
I do say it as it is, and it is the Scouser in me.
我确实这么说，这就是我心中的利物浦人。
I don’t really put up with bullshit.
我真的不能忍受废话。
I don’t think people like that.
我不认为人们喜欢那样。
They thought that I should just shut up and put up.
他们认为我应该闭嘴并忍受。
There was a lot of viciousness that came as a result of the title.
这个标题带来了很多恶毒。
Really interestingly — you can’t know this, but it’s absolutely true — the first letter came a week after the knighthood was announced.
真的很有趣 ——“你不可能知道这一点，但这绝对是真的”—— 第一封信是在宣布封爵一周后收到的。
I think that was the trigger.
我认为这就是触发因素。
I was like, “Ah, somebody’s seen this in the papers, and this is the trigger.” I don’t know, I can’t say whether there was some sort of, not even envy, but just, “Who does she think she is?”
我当时想，“啊，有人在报纸上看到了这一点，这就是触发因素。”我不知道，我不能说是否有某种，甚至不是嫉妒，只是，“她以为她是谁？”
On her experience as a therapist
关于她作为治疗师的经历
Do you think you’re an outspoken Liverpudlian as a therapist?
作为一名治疗师，你认为你是一个直言不讳的利物浦人吗？
Yes.
是的。
You’ll just call BS when you hear it.
当你听到它时，你就会打电话给BS。
Completely, and you have to with couples.
完全可以，而且你必须和情侣一起。
I love couples.
我喜欢情侣。
I do all therapy.
我做所有的治疗。
I do family therapy, but I love couples because you have to call it out.
我做家庭治疗，但我喜欢夫妻，因为你必须大声疾呼。
You’ve got to call people’s bullshit out.
你必须纠正人们的胡言乱语。
Of course, you’d only do that when you’ve created that bond, but I absolutely will because I will not waste people’s time or money.
当然，只有当你建立了这种联系时你才会这样做，但我绝对会这样做，因为我不会浪费人们的时间或金钱。
I will say, “You are wasting your time.
我会说：“你在浪费时间。
You’re wasting your money.
你在浪费你的钱。
You don’t want this enough.”
你想要的还不够。”
I will absolutely call it out because I can’t bear people who just go into therapy for therapy’s sake and waste their money and their time.
我绝对会大声疾呼，因为我无法忍受那些只是为了治疗而接受治疗并浪费金钱和时间的人。
And in America, it’s expensive.
在美国，它很贵。
It’s a lot of money to speak to me.
跟我说话需要很多钱。
I’m like, “I’ve got to be worth it.
我想，“我必须值得。
I’ve got to be worth it.
我必须值得。
I want them to feel good about this.” I am outspoken, but I’m gentle too.
我希望他们对此感觉良好。”我很直率，但我也很温柔。
I’ve always been a good listener, so I’ve not had any complaints.
我一直是一个很好的倾听者，所以我没有任何抱怨。
Now, I know it’s hard to generalize, but if you think about how American couples are different from British couples, what ideas come to mind?
现在，我知道这很难一概而论，但如果你想想美国夫妇与英国夫妇有何不同，你会想到什么想法？
I really think American couples are incredibly — I know this makes me sound a bit of a tosser, but they’re so sweet.
我真的认为美国夫妇是令人难以置信的 —— 我知道这让我听起来有点反复无常，但他们是如此甜蜜。
I lived in Arizona for so long, and I was just like, “Oh, the relationships are so lovely.
我在亚利桑那州住了很长时间，我就想，“哦，这里的关系真是太好了。
They’re so kind to each other.
他们对彼此非常友善。
They’re so warm.” I was like, “British people are just so horrible to each other.” I feel like we’re always in an Ivy Compton-Burnett novel where everyone’s whispering horrible things under their breath to their husbands and their wives.
他们太温暖了。”我当时想，“英国人彼此之间太可怕了。”我觉得我们总是在艾薇·康普顿-伯内特的小说里，每个人都在低声向自己的丈夫和妻子低声说着可怕的事情。
I feel like the family values in America is huge for me, but it may be the West Coast thing as well.
我觉得美国的家庭价值观对我来说很重要，但西海岸也可能如此。
I was like, “Wow, so much family and support.” Of course, not everybody, but just generalizing.
我当时想，“哇，这么多的家人和支持。”当然，并不是所有人，只是概括。
I’m like, “Wow, there’s a real support within the family that I haven’t seen quite so much in England.”
我想，“哇，家里有真正的支持，这是我在英格兰从未见过的。”
I think it seems a little bit more fraught.
我认为这似乎有点令人担忧。
Many people marry their college sweethearts.
许多人与大学时期的恋人结婚。
I’m like, “How does that even work?
我想，“这到底是怎么回事？
How can you still be married to someone you knew when you were 14?” It’s like, “Seriously, do you really want to stay together?
你怎么还能和你14岁时就认识的人结婚呢？”就像，“说实话，你们真的想在一起吗？
You can leave.”
你可以离开了。”
Do you think there’s evidence of any kind of mental health crisis in the US today?
您认为当今美国有任何精神健康危机的证据吗？
Maybe only with people’s children, but I see some of these parents with teenagers or children, say, in their 20s; I hear of many more issues than I would’ve, say, 15 years ago.
也许只有人们的孩子，但我看到其中一些父母带着青少年或孩子，比如20多岁的孩子；我听到的问题比 15 年前要多得多。
Maybe people just talk about it more.
也许人们只是更多地谈论它。
This, to me, is notable.
对我来说，这一点值得注意。
Do you agree or find the same?
您是否同意或发现相同的情况？
I do agree.
我确实同意。
My favorite group, apart from couples, are teenagers.
除了情侣之外，我最喜欢的群体是青少年。
They’re the population I always wanted to work with in therapy.
他们是我一直想在治疗中与之合作的人群。
I’m fascinated by teenagers.
我对青少年着迷。
I love them.
我爱他们。
They’re hilarious.
他们很搞笑。
They are just great.
他们太棒了。
I’m shocked by how many teenagers are seriously depressed.
我对有多少青少年患有严重抑郁症感到震惊。
I’m seeing 11-year-olds with depression, 12-year-olds with depression, 13-year-olds with depression, and that’s something that I think is new and just the sense in which — and I’m not going to blame social media because I think social media’s fantastic — but the pressure young women, particularly, I noticed in therapy, are under to that cult of perfection.
我看到 11 岁的孩子患有抑郁症，12 岁的孩子患有抑郁症，13 岁的孩子患有抑郁症，我认为这是新鲜事，而且正是这种感觉 ——我不会责怪社交媒体，因为我认为社交媒体太棒了——但我在治疗中注意到，年轻女性，尤其是年轻女性，承受着对完美的崇拜的压力。
And also, when you’re bullied, there’s no escape.
而且，当你被欺负时，你就无处可逃。
I can remember being bullied, and I was like, “At least you’d go home, and then your parents will be nice to you, and it’d be fine.
我记得被欺负的时候，我当时想，“至少你会回家，然后你的父母会对你好，那就好了。
Your siblings would just — you’d laugh it off,” but there’s no escape.
你的兄弟姐妹只会“——”你会一笑置之，”但这是没有办法逃脱的。
There is no escape at all.
根本无处可逃。
I love that population.
我爱那群人。
I think there is a huge mental health crisis.
我认为存在巨大的心理健康危机。
However way you cut it, there really, really is.
不管你怎么切，确实存在。
The sad thing is that — I’m a family therapist, so I really love families.
可悲的是 — 我是一名家庭治疗师，所以我真的很爱家庭。
I love getting families in a room because you can’t just take one person’s perspective.
我喜欢让家人坐在一起，因为你不能只站在一个人的角度看问题。
Everyone has a different perspective.
每个人都有不同的观点。
Making families stronger, I think therapy is just so brilliant and important for all families in order to connect.
让家庭更强大，我认为治疗对于所有家庭来说都是非常出色和重要的，以便建立联系。
That’s the E.
那就是E。
M.
M。
Forster thing, isn’t it?
福斯特的事，不是吗？
“Only connect.” I’ve been really scared by the mental health crisis amongst young people, particularly in America.
“只有连接。”我真的对年轻人的心理健康危机感到害怕，尤其是在美国。
I’ve seen some pretty shocking stuff, I can tell you.
我可以告诉你，我看到了一些非常令人震惊的事情。
Why do you think it’s gotten worse?
您认为为什么情况变得更糟了？
Because I don’t know.
因为我不知道。
Again, people will blame social media, and to some extent it’s that.
人们会再次指责社交媒体，在某种程度上就是这样。
A lot of children are really lonely.
很多孩子真的很孤独。
Both parents work, and they often go home to an empty house.
父母都工作，他们回家时常常看到空荡荡的房子。
I’ve just heard such horrific stories about there’s no community.
我刚刚听说过关于没有社区的可怕故事。
America’s great for community, but we don’t really have that sense of community anymore, which I think is so important.
美国非常有社区意识，但我们已经不再有那种社区意识了，我认为这非常重要。
I don’t know, churches or whatever — having a sense of community is really important, and we just don’t have that anymore, and I think that’s a problem.
我不知道，教堂或者其他什么——拥有社区意识确实很重要，但我们现在已经没有了，我认为这是一个问题。
There are all sorts of things.
有各种各样的事情。
I do think social media plays a part.
我确实认为社交媒体发挥了作用。
Honestly, it’s fascinating.
老实说，这很有趣。
I think about it all the time.
我一直在想这个问题。
I’m like, “Why have we got this bad?
我想，“为什么我们会变得这么糟糕？
What’s happened?
发生了什么事？
Why are we in this state that we’re in?” I think it is lack of connection, a real meaningful connection.
为什么我们会陷入这样的境地？”我认为这是缺乏联系，一种真正有意义的联系。
Now, one hears often of a human capital crisis in Northern England in particular, which, of course, is where you’re from.
现在，人们经常听说英格兰北部发生人力资本危机，当然，英格兰北部也是你的家乡。
How would you diagnose that?
你会如何诊断？
Because it did not exist in earlier times.
因为它在早期是不存在的。
What has happened there?
那里发生了什么事？
Is it just deindustrialization, or there’s something else in the story?
这只是去工业化，还是还有其他原因？
Again, it’s complicated, isn’t it?
再说一遍，这很复杂，不是吗？
I was just thinking of The Full Monty when you said that, that brilliant film about the emasculation of men, when women could get jobs and it was the men pushing the prams.
当你这么说时，我正在想起《满月》，那部精彩的电影讲述了男性的阉割，当时女性可以找到工作，而推婴儿车的却是男性。
I can remember seeing that in the North: the shipbuilding industry, Cammell Laird’s closing, and you suddenly see more men pushing babies in the prams.
我记得在北方看到过这样的情况：造船业、卡梅尔·莱尔德（Cammell Laird）倒闭，你突然看到更多的男人推着婴儿车里的婴儿。
It really did make me think of The Full Monty when you said that.
当你这么说的时候，我确实想起了《Full Monty》。
I think tourism — since Liverpool was capital of culture, it became really more prosperous again, and people were getting jobs, and there were the garden festivals.
我认为旅游业——自从利物浦成为文化之都以来，它再次变得更加繁荣，人们开始找到工作，还有花园节。
I’ve seen such big changes, but I’ve been away from it for so long, Tyler.
我看到了这么大的变化，但我已经离开它太久了，泰勒。
I’ve been away from the North.
我已经远离北方了。
I haven’t really been back for a long time.
我真的已经很久没有回来了。
My sense when I’ve gone back to Liverpool is, it seems to be thriving.
当我回到利物浦时，我的感觉是，它似乎正在蓬勃发展。
It feels prosperous in a way it didn’t in the ’80s when I was growing up.
那种繁荣的感觉是我成长过程中 80 年代所没有的。
It wasn’t.
事实并非如此。
It’s great.
太棒了。
I went there during the pandemic.
疫情期间我去过那里。
I loved it.
我喜欢它。
It’s fantastic.
太棒了。
And people are very warm.
而且人们都很热情。
Have you ever bought anything on Penny Lane?
你在 Penny Lane 买过东西吗？
No, but I’ve been down Penny Lane many times.
没有，但我去过竹篙巷很多次。
I love the people.
我爱人民。
The people are really warm.
人们真的很热情。
My children love going back because I always took them home because my parents and my family mainly still are.
我的孩子们喜欢回去，因为我总是带他们回家，因为我的父母和家人基本上还在。
My kids, who were brought up in Oxford, just said — they just thought the North of England was the best place.
我在牛津长大的孩子们只是说“他们只是认为英格兰北部是最好的地方”。
They think that people are friendly and warm and kind and funny, and they found people in Oxford very snobby.
他们认为牛津的人们友好、热情、善良、有趣，而且他们发现牛津的人非常势利。
I love seeing Liverpool through their eyes as well because they’re like, “Oh, they’re so nice.
我也喜欢通过他们的眼睛看利物浦，因为他们会说：“哦，他们太棒了。
Everyone’s so kind, and people say hello on the streets.”
每个人都很友善，人们在街上都会打招呼。”
I really don’t know really so much about the politics because I’m so out of touch, Tyler, I’m really out of touch, and I’m so disillusioned.
我真的对政治不太了解，因为我太脱离现实了，泰勒，我真的脱离了现实，我的幻想破灭了。
I’m disillusioned with Keir Starmer.
我对凯尔·斯塔默的幻想破灭了。
I’m disillusioned with Labour.
我对工党的幻想破灭了。
I’m disappointed and I’m saddened.
我很失望，也很悲伤。
I think Britain’s become, well, like America, a very divisive place.
我认为英国已经像美国一样成为一个非常分裂的地方。
Families arguing over politics.
家庭因政治而争论。
It’s become really vicious within families.
它在家庭中变得非常恶毒。
People not speaking to someone because you voted for Donald Trump or you — I’m like, “Wow, how did it get to this?” Who cares if somebody votes differently to you?
人们不会因为你投票给唐纳德·特朗普而与某人交谈，或者你 - 我想，“哇，怎么会变成这样？”谁在乎有人投票与你不同？
You still can love them.
你仍然可以爱他们。
It’s become so divisive.
它变得如此分裂。
The pandemic, going back to mental health — huge, huge impact on adolescents.
这场流行病，回到心理健康——对青少年产生巨大的影响。
Many of them had a very hard time during the pandemic.
他们中的许多人在大流行期间度过了非常困难的时期。
There’s lots of complementary and complex issues around that, really.
确实，围绕这个问题存在很多互补且复杂的问题。
What’s the most underrated Beatles song?
披头士乐队最被低估的歌曲是什么？
Hmm.
嗯。
I love The Beatles.
我喜欢披头士乐队。
I really like the B-sides, and I like George a lot.
我真的很喜欢B面，也很喜欢乔治。
I’m going to go with “Yes It Is.”
我会选择“是的，就是这样”。
It’s a great song.
这是一首很棒的歌曲。
Wonderful harmonies.
美妙的和谐。
I said “You Won’t See Me” when someone discussed this with me recently.
最近有人与我讨论这个问题时，我说“你不会看到我”。
But “Mr. Moonlight,” also, no one likes, but it’s an amazing vocal, one of John’s best vocals.
但是“先生。月光”，也没有人喜欢，但这是一首令人惊叹的歌声，是约翰最好的歌声之一。
“You Won’t See Me” is a great song.
《你不会看见我》是一首很棒的歌曲。
Yes.
是的。
That is a great song.
那是一首很棒的歌。
The melancholy in there is just incredible.
那里的忧郁令人难以置信。
“When I call” — the melancholy and the harmonies.
《当我呼唤时》——忧郁与和谐。
And I love “This Boy.” I love all, I think, the harmonies of just — those early harmonies are so beautiful.
我喜欢“这个男孩”。我想，我喜欢所有的和声——那些早期的和声是如此美丽。
But I really love the B-sides and “Yes It Is.” “Yes It Is” is so gorgeous.
但我真的很喜欢 B 面和《Yes It Is》。 “是的，就是这样”太华丽了。
Excellent choice.
绝佳的选择。
What’s the weirdest thing about living in Arizona?
生活在亚利桑那州最奇怪的事情是什么？
Well, I don’t know.
好吧，我不知道。
The weirdest thing about living in Arizona — oh gosh, there’s so many.
生活在亚利桑那州最奇怪的事情是——天哪，有这么多。
Oh, my God, I love it.
哦，天哪，我喜欢它。
You’re near Phoenix, right?
你离凤凰城很近吧？
Yes, it’s sort of Scottsdale.
是的，这有点像斯科茨代尔。
I love the landscape.
我喜欢这里的风景。
It’s incredibly beautiful.
它非常美丽。
What’s the weirdest thing?
最奇怪的事情是什么？
Do you know what I think it is?
你知道我认为它是什么吗？
I know this makes me sound so incredibly shallow.
我知道这让我听起来非常肤浅。
It’s that the restaurants are in malls, shopping malls.
就是餐馆在商场里，购物中心里。
I’m like, “Where are the restaurants?
我说：“餐馆在哪里？
Where are the cafes?
咖啡馆在哪里？
Where are people sitting outside, people-watching?” You have to go to a mall to get a meal.
坐在外面观看行人的人在哪里？”你必须去商场才能吃饭。
You can’t sit outside four or five months of the year.
一年中你不能坐在四五个月之外。
You can’t sit outside.
你不能坐在外面。
That’s the obvious one, but it is incredibly beautiful.
这是显而易见的，但它非常美丽。
Northern Arizona, which I really loved and spent a lot of time, is so completely gorgeous and beautiful, and the landscape is so different to Phoenix.
我非常喜欢并在那里度过了很多时间的北亚利桑那州是如此的华丽和美丽，而且风景与凤凰城如此不同。
I really tried to explore the area when I was living there.
当我住在那里的时候，我真的很尝试去探索这个地区。
And I’d take the kids and we’d go to Payson and all these really weird places, and Prescott, and just really get to know — Bisbee, have you been to Bisbee?
我会带孩子们去佩森和所有这些非常奇怪的地方，还有普雷斯科特，然后真正了解 - 比斯比，你去过比斯比吗？
No. What’s in Bisbee?
不，比斯比有什么？
Bisbee is the coolest place.
比斯比是最酷的地方。
It’s a mining town, so you feel like you’re in the Alps of Switzerland.
这是一个矿业小镇，所以你感觉就像在瑞士的阿尔卑斯山一样。
And it’s full of music and bands, and it’s cool, and it’s the best place in the world.
这里充满了音乐和乐队，很酷，是世界上最好的地方。
There’s all these inns that are built on the mountainside where the mining used to take place.
所有这些旅馆都建在曾经采矿的山腰上。
It’s really, really cool, Bisbee, and I’m a big, big fan.
这真的非常非常酷，Bisbee，我是它的超级粉丝。
COWEN: Before my last question, let me just put in another plug for your books.
COWEN：在我提出最后一个问题之前，让我为您的书再插上一个插头。
I very much like all of them.
我非常喜欢他们所有人。
The most recent is Hardy Women: Mother, Sisters, Wives, Muses, about Thomas Hardy and the women in his lives and in his work.
最近的一本是《哈代女性：母亲、姐妹、妻子、缪斯》，讲述了托马斯·哈代以及他生活和工作中的女性。
Last question, what will you do next?
最后一个问题，接下来你会做什么？
Oh, I’ve just finished, literally today, before I spoke to you, I pressed send on another novel.
哦，我今天刚写完，在跟你说话之前，我按下了另一本小说的发送键。
It’s my third novel.
这是我的第三本小说。
It’s a historical novel, and it’s about Jane Austen’s lost secret seaside romance.
这是一部历史小说，讲述的是简·奥斯汀失落的秘密海滨浪漫史。
That’s great.
太好了。
After that, now that that’s done, what will you do next?
在那之后，现在已经完成了，接下来你要做什么？
I’m not sure I’m going to write because, honestly, I can’t afford to.
我不确定我是否要写，因为说实话，我负担不起。
There’s no money in it.
里面没有钱。
Nobody reads anymore.
没人再读书了。
I’m really depressed about it.
我对此感到非常沮丧。
I’m probably going to practice —
我可能会练习 ——
I read.
我读了。
Yay.
耶。
I’m probably going to practice therapy for a while.
我可能会练习一段时间的治疗。
I always say this, Tyler.
我总是这么说，泰勒。
I’m like, “This is it.
我想，“就是这样。
Last book.
最后一本书。
No money.
没有钱。
Can’t do it.
做不到。
Nobody’s buying books.” Then I’m always like, “Oh, my God, I got this really good idea.” Actually, I am writing a novel about Mary Robinson.
没有人买书。”然后我总是会说，“哦，天哪，我想到了一个非常好的主意。”事实上，我正在写一本关于玛丽·罗宾逊的小说。
You mentioned her earlier.
你之前提到过她。
I think the historical novel thing is just so much fun.
我认为历史小说非常有趣。
I really like it, and I don’t have to worry about footnotes all the time.
我真的很喜欢它，而且我不用一直担心脚注。
It’s quite freeing to be a creative fiction writer rather than nonfiction.
成为一名有创意的小说作家比非小说作家更自由。
Although I say this is the last one, I have been saying that for like 20 years.
虽然我说这是最后一次，但我已经这样说了二十年了。
I say that too, you know?
我也这么说，你知道吗？
Then there’s typically one more.
然后通常还有一个。
Paula Byrne, thank you very much.
保拉·伯恩，非常感谢你。
It’s been a real pleasure.
这真是一种乐趣。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。