Paul Salopek on Walking the World (Ep. 170)
Hello, everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today I am chatting with Paul Salopek.
今天我正在与保罗·萨洛佩克聊天。
Paul is not here with me.
保罗不在我身边。
Paul, where are you?
保罗，你在哪里？
I am in Shaanxi Province in western China.
我在中国西部的陕西省。
Paul is undertaking one of the most remarkable feats I have heard of.
保罗正在进行我所听说过的最非凡的壮举之一。
First of all, he’s an extremely well-known journalist, a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner.
首先，他是一位非常知名的记者，两次获得普利策奖。
You may have read his articles in the National Geographic, the Atlantic, and many other publications.
您可能读过他在《国家地理》、《大西洋月刊》和许多其他出版物上发表的文章。
Since 2013, he has been embarking on what is called the Out of Eden Walk, which is roughly a 15-year project, 24,000 miles.
自 2013 年起，他就开始了所谓的“走出伊甸园之路”，这个项目大约为期 15 年，总里程达 24,000 英里。
I call it walking around the world, but it is starting in East Africa, the cradle of mankind, and it will finish in Tierra del Fuego.
我称之为环游世界，但它的起点是人类的摇篮东非，终点是火地岛。
And as stated, Paul currently is in western China.
如前所述，保罗目前在中国西部。
Paul, welcome.
保罗，欢迎。
Tyler, it’s good to be here with you.
泰勒，很高兴和你在一起。
First question: How do you take care of your feet?
第一个问题：你如何护理你的脚？
I think I drew a lucky card on the genetics end on feet.
我想我在脚的基因末端画了一张幸运牌。
The feet more or less take care of me.
脚或多或少地照顾我。
I think I’ve gotten one or two blisters over the last nine or so years.
我想在过去九年左右的时间里我已经长了一两个水泡。
Pretty hardy feet — I don’t know where that came from.
相当强壮的脚 —— 我不知道那是从哪里来的。
So, in the foot department, I’m okay.
所以，在足部，我还可以。
I don’t really pay too much attention to my feet, to be honest.
老实说，我并不太注意自己的脚。
That’s amazing.
太棒了。
Now, where do you think your supply chain is most vulnerable?
现在，您认为您的供应链哪里最脆弱？
I travel a great deal.
我经常出差。
Sometimes I run out of things, or they break.
有时我的东西用完了，或者它们坏了。
Then I have to get a new one.
然后我必须买一个新的。
What’s the biggest supply chain problem you have?
您面临的最大供应链问题是什么？
I try, Tyler, to live off the local economy as much as possible, not out of any sense of intellectual virtue or economic virtue, but simply because I have to.
泰勒，我尝试尽可能地依靠当地经济生活，不是出于任何智力美德或经济美德的感觉，而只是因为我必须这样做。
I’m walking, and everything that I need to use, I have to carry on my back.
我在走路，我需要使用的所有东西都必须背在背上。
My supply chain — I keep it as short as possible.
我的供应链 — 我让它尽可能短。
It’s the local market.
这是当地市场。
That includes everything from notepads to socks and everything in between.
这包括从记事本到袜子以及介于两者之间的所有物品。
Probably the most tenuous line of supply would be, maybe, electronics for me to do my job.
也许最脆弱的供应线可能是我完成工作所需的电子产品。
A decent lightweight laptop that has a lifespan of a few years, given the bangs that it gets in a backpack while walking across continents, electronics configured to do media work would be the most dicey cargo that I carry.
一台体面的轻量级笔记本电脑，使用寿命可达几年，考虑到它在穿越大陆时放在背包里的刘海，配置用于媒体工作的电子设备将是我携带的最危险的货物。
But pretty much 99 percent of the rest is local economy.
但其余 99% 几乎都是地方经济。
You do all this with a single backpack?
你只用一个背包就能完成这一切吗？
Yes.
是的。
It’s a rucksack.
这是一个背包。
It’s an old canvas bag.
这是一个旧帆布包。
It’s just one single canvas bag with some straps on it.
它只是一个帆布包，上面有一些带子。
I keep it simple.
我保持简单。
What kind of shoes do you use?
你用什么类型的鞋子？
If I can get them — that’s another thing — I wear Merrell walking shoes.
如果我能买到它们 —— 那就是另一回事了 —— 我穿 Merrell 步行鞋。
Here’s a free plug for the Merrell company.
这是 Merrell 公司的免费插头。
But the honest answer is I wear whatever is available, anything from leather sandals to plastic galoshes that are made all over — Turkish ones, Chinese ones, you name it, sneakers, pretty much everything.
但诚实的答案是，我穿任何能穿的东西，从皮凉鞋到塑料套鞋，这些都是到处制作的——土耳其的，中国的，凡是你能想到的，运动鞋，几乎所有东西。
Why do you write a goodbye essay to each country when you’re leaving it?
为什么离开每个国家时都要写一篇告别文章？
I don’t know how that really started, and I don’t do it for every country.
我不知道这一切是如何开始的，而且我也没有对每个国家都这样做。
It’s more using borders as a milestone — an emotional milestone even more than a geographical or political one.
它更多地利用边界作为一个里程碑——一个情感上的里程碑，甚至比地理或政治上的里程碑还要重要。
I look back over the shoulder or glance back at the people that I met before I move on into a new polity.
在我进入一个新的政体之前，我会回头看看我遇到的人。
These are small summing-ups along the way on a journey where, my word, there’s just so much to sum up.
这些都是旅途中的小总结，我说，有很多东西需要总结。
It’s complicated.
情况很复杂。
On a given day, you’re taking notes?
在某一天，你在做笔记吗？
Or you remember it all until the end?
或者你直到最后都记得这一切？
How do you operate with assembling and collecting information?
您如何组装和收集信息？
Yes, that’s actually the hardest part of the project.
是的，这实际上是该项目最难的部分。
The walking, you can get used to.
走路，你就可以习惯了。
The walking, you can train your body to become adept at plotting out 25 or 30 kilometers a day.
通过步行，您可以训练您的身体，使其能够熟练地每天行走 25 或 30 公里。
Recording the experiences and recording the encounters with the people that I meet, recording the personalities and the issues raised by my walking partners, which is crucial to the project, is where the real heavy lifting happens, and it happens in real time.
记录我遇到的人的经历和遭遇，记录我的行走伙伴的个性和提出的问题，这对项目至关重要，是真正繁重的工作发生的地方，而且是实时发生的。
I always carry a notepad either on a string around my neck, in a shirt pocket, or tucked in a cargo pants pocket.
我总是带着一本记事本，要么挂在脖子上，要么放在衬衫口袋里，要么塞在工装裤口袋里。
I jot things down all the time.
我总是把事情记下来。
I, of course, record interviews as well.
当然，我也会录制采访。
I’m old-fashioned.
我很守旧。
I’m an analog guy.
我是一个模拟人。
I still take hand notes.
我仍然手写笔记。
Then there are book journals where I jot summary thoughts in the evenings before going to bed.
然后是书籍日记，我在晚上睡觉前记下总结的想法。
It’s a layered recording experience.
这是一种分层的录音体验。
These are not uploaded to the cloud?
这些不是上传到云端的吗？
They’re just physical items that you carry?
它们只是您携带的物理物品？
Alas, yes, I’m carrying about two and a half kilos of notebooks right now because I generally want to get to a big-enough logistical hub that has reliable express delivery services, and I do upload them to the cloud.
唉，是的，我现在带着大约两公斤半的笔记本，因为我通常想要到达一个足够大的物流中心，有可靠的快递服务，我确实将它们上传到云端。
But the notepads themselves are artifacts of the Walk.
但记事本本身就是步行的产物。
They’re very precious.
它们非常珍贵。
I also take thousands of photographs and many, many hours of videos on my phone.
我还在手机上拍摄了数千张照片和很多很多小时的视频。
It’s a multimedia project.
这是一个多媒体项目。
That material gets uploaded in the cloud instantaneously.
该材料会立即上传到云端。
How do you choose your walking partners?
你如何选择你的徒步伙伴？
Complicated.
复杂的。
Often, word of mouth.
往往是口耳相传。
There might be somebody in Kazakhstan who I’ve made friends with, who’s walked across western Kazakhstan with me, who might know somebody who knows somebody over the border in Uzbekistan.
哈萨克斯坦可能有人和我交过朋友，和我一起走过哈萨克斯坦西部，他可能认识某个认识乌兹别克斯坦边境的人。
That’s generally how it works.
一般来说，这就是它的工作原理。
Only once have I actually had to go out on the open market and post a job opening, if you will, for a walking partner, say, in a chat room.
只有一次，我实际上不得不去公开市场上发布职位空缺，如果你愿意的话，可以在聊天室中发布一个步行伙伴的职位空缺。
Most of it is connections with the people that I’m already walking with.
其中大部分是与我已经一起散步的人的联系。
In that sense, it’s quite nice because it forms links in a chain of relationships that touch each other all the way across continents.
从这个意义上说，它非常好，因为它形成了跨越各大洲相互接触的关系链中的各个环节。
It’s kind of nice.
这很好。
These are other walkers, so to speak, typically, or it could be anyone?
可以这么说，这些通常是其他步行者，或者可能是任何人？
It could be a carpenter or a dentist.
他可能是木匠或牙医。
Or they’re people who have their own walking projects?
或者他们是有自己步行项目的人？
Very rarely, people who have their own walking projects.
很少有人有自己的步行项目。
When I do bump into people like that, it’s wonderful because we speak the same language.
当我遇到这样的人时，感觉很棒，因为我们说着同样的语言。
I walked with a young man in India who is walking out Indian rivers.
我和一位在印度的年轻人一起走过印度的河流。
He’s walked more than 5,000 kilometers up the Ganga, and he’s formed a nonprofit to get young Indians to walk the rivers of India for documentary purposes.
他沿着恒河徒步了 5,000 多公里，并成立了一个非营利组织，让年轻的印度人为了纪录片的目的在印度的河流上行走。
But most of the time, they’re not people who are in my biz.
但大多数时候，他们不是我所在行业的人。
I do walk with journalists.
我确实和记者一起散步。
I do walk with photographers who produce their own work, which, again, is crucial to this project.
我确实与创作自己作品的摄影师一起散步，这对这个项目至关重要。
It’s a medley; it’s not a solo project.
这是一个混合曲；这不是一个单独的项目。
But the most surprising partners are often the most wonderful — people who may not have thought before of rambling through home, to take time off from work, take a leave of absence from the family, and go walking for several weeks through a place that they think they know but soon discover, on foot, that they don’t know that well at all.
但最令人惊讶的伴侣往往是最美妙的——他们以前可能没有想过要在家里闲逛，从工作中抽出时间，向家人请假，在一个他们认为自己熟悉的地方步行几周，但很快就会发现，步行时，他们根本不熟悉。
How is walking with women different from walking with men?
与女性同行与与男性同行有何不同？
Well, you’ve probably interviewed journalists before.
嗯，您以前可能采访过记者。
The truth is, women have access to a wider range of the human experience by virtue of accessing women’s world, especially in cultures where that might be difficult for a man, especially a stranger walking in over the horizon, an unknown person.
事实是，女性可以通过进入女性世界来获得更广泛的人类经验，特别是在那些对男性来说可能很难的文化中，尤其是一个从地平线走来的陌生人、一个不知名的人。
So, walking with women opens up storytelling for me in ways that are really important.
因此，与女性同行以非常重要的方式为我开启了讲故事的大门。
Right now, in China, just by chance — I’m not actively out looking for women to walk with, but just by chance — maybe there’s some self-selection here, adventurous women, curious women — probably more than half the partners through China so far have been women, and it’s been wonderful.
现在，在中国，只是偶然 —— 我并没有积极寻找女性同行，只是偶然 —— 这里可能有一些自我选择，喜欢冒险的女性，好奇的女性 ——到目前为止，中国的伴侣可能超过一半是女性，这真是太棒了。
What’s the meaning of Homer’s Odyssey to you?
荷马的《奥德赛》对你来说有何意义？
It’s one of many literary touchstones that go back to even my childhood, the reading that probably informed this project since I was able to read.
这是许多文学试金石之一，甚至可以追溯到我的童年，自从我能够阅读以来，阅读可能为这个项目提供了信息。
I grew up in Central Mexico, and books were scarce.
我在墨西哥中部长大，书籍稀缺。
When I got my hands on them, I generally tended to read them cover to cover.
当我拿到它们时，我通常倾向于从头到尾地阅读它们。
Greek mythology, some canonical works that were brought down from the US across the border informed my thinking very early on, even science fiction — Jules Verne, things like that, boyish interests.
希腊神话，一些从美国跨境带来的经典作品很早就影响了我的思考，甚至是科幻小说——儒勒·凡尔纳之类的东西，孩子气的兴趣。
Homer, as I’ve discovered — starting out, of course, he’s an Olympian character in the landscape of epic poetry.
荷马，正如我所发现的——当然，从一开始，他就是史诗中的奥林匹亚人物。
But I’ve learned of others walking across the world, the Mahabharata, and faith-based epics in South Asia or the Epic of Manas in Kyrgyzstan, which is longer than Homer and which used to be recited Homerically, verbally, until very recently.
但我听说过其他人走遍世界，比如《摩诃婆罗多》，以及南亚的信仰史诗或吉尔吉斯斯坦的《玛纳斯史诗》，它比荷马还要长，直到最近才被人们以荷马的方式口头背诵。
That’s one of the great joys of the project, bumping into other majestic world poetry.
这是这个项目的最大乐趣之一，碰撞到其他宏伟的世界诗歌。
Have you ever read Thomas Coryat, the 17th-century Englishman?
您读过 17 世纪英国人托马斯·科里亚特 (Thomas Coryat) 的作品吗？
No. Should I?
不，我应该吗？
He walked to India.
他步行去了印度。
He’s believed to be the first Englishman to have been a tourist in India, and he went to India by walking there.
他被认为是第一个到印度旅游的英国人，他是步行来到印度的。
I believe it took him seven years.
我相信他花了七年的时间。
He spent a lot of time in Italy and then in the Ottoman Empire.
他在意大利和奥斯曼帝国度过了很多时间。
There’s a good biography of him and his own book.
有一本关于他的传记和他自己的书。
I think you can even get it on Kindle, but that’s C-O-R-Y-A-T, Thomas Coryat.
我想你甚至可以在 Kindle 上找到它，但那就是 C-O-R-Y-A-T，Thomas Coryat。
I’ll look for it.
我去找找。
When I heard about your endeavor, that’s what came to mind immediately.
当我听说你的努力时，我立即想到了这一点。
Yes, that sounds like a kindred spirit.
是的，这听起来像是志同道合的人。
Foot wanderers — it’s remarkable.
徒步旅行者 —— 这很了不起。
Not even callings.
连电话都没有。
Pilgrims, of course, come to mind, too — these vast, extraordinary pilgrimages from throughout the Middle East to Mecca, walking the old Tarik-al-Hajj roads to Mecca that are still worn into the bedrock of the Hejaz Desert.
当然，朝圣者也会出现在我的脑海中——这些从整个中东地区到麦加的大规模、非凡的朝觐活动，沿着古老的塔里克朝觐道路前往麦加，这些道路仍然被磨损在汉志沙漠的基岩中。
Those are epic journeys made by many, many, many people through time, whose stories are never told.
这些是许多、许多、许多人在时间中所经历的史诗般的旅程，他们的故事从未被讲述过。
There are also many, many great wanderers across many societies, and I’ve tried to bring their stories to the fore as well.
在许多社会中还有许许多多伟大的流浪者，我也试图将他们的故事带到前台。
Again, we’re a restless, wandering breed, and pretty much every society reflects that, at least the ones that I’ve encountered on foot on my trail.
再说一次，我们是一个不安分、流浪的品种，几乎每个社会都反映了这一点，至少是我在路上徒步遇到的社会。
Relative to the time before you started, what is it you no longer care about, or it seems petty to you now but back then seemed important?
相对于开始之前，有什么事情是你现在不再关心的，或者现在看来很琐碎但当时却很重要的？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
Nothing immediately springs to mind of a nonbanal nature.
没有任何事情会立即浮现在脑海中。
I’ve never been a person obsessed with equipment.
我从来都不是一个痴迷于设备的人。
I’ve never been somebody who is cued into careerist prospects.
我从来都不是一个被暗示要追求事业前景的人。
My career trajectory, which I wouldn’t recommend to anybody, has been very erratic, veering from fishing boats into newsrooms and into gold mines in Western Australia and cattle ranches in Chihuahua and everywhere else in between.
我不会向任何人推荐我的职业轨迹，它非常不稳定，从渔船到新闻编辑室，到西澳大利亚的金矿，到奇瓦瓦州的养牛场，以及其间的其他地方。
What I remind my readers who ask similar questions is that I started this when I was 50, a pretty well-formed personality.
我要提醒问类似问题的读者，我是在 50 岁的时候开始写这篇文章的，当时我的性格相当成熟。
I knew where I’d come from.
我知道我从哪里来。
I didn’t know where I’m going, like everybody else, but had a methodology down already.
和其他人一样，我也不知道自己要去哪里，但我已经有了一套方法论。
I was doing a lot of what I’m doing on this project already through my journalism career.
在我的新闻职业生涯中，我已经在这个项目上做了很多事情。
I had wonderful editors at the Chicago Tribune, who, when they saw an idea that merited it, gave me the freedom to spend months and months wandering through these stories, particularly in Africa.
我在《芝加哥论坛报》有很棒的编辑，当他们看到一个值得的想法时，他们给了我自由，可以花几个月的时间浏览这些故事，特别是在非洲。
As I’ve described before, the Out Eden Walk is more of an arrival than a departure.
正如我之前所描述的，Out Eden Walk 与其说是出发，不如说是到达。
I don’t know if that answers your question or if it’s a disappointing answer, but that’s the truth.
我不知道这是否回答了你的问题，或者这是一个令人失望的答案，但这是事实。
What’s true is true.
真实的就是真实的。
How is it that you crossed the desert?
你是怎样穿越沙漠的？
You’ve been through some of the Gulf States, I think.
我想你已经去过一些海湾国家了。
Yes, I’ve been through several deserts.
是的，我已经走过好几个沙漠了。
The first was the Afar Desert in north Ethiopia, one of the hottest deserts in the world, and then the Hejaz in western Saudi Arabia, and then some big deserts in Central Asia, the Kyzyl Kum in Uzbekistan.
首先是埃塞俄比亚北部的阿法尔沙漠，这是世界上最热的沙漠之一，然后是沙特阿拉伯西部的汉志，然后是中亚的一些大沙漠，乌兹别克斯坦的克孜勒库姆沙漠。
You cross deserts with a great attentiveness.
你以极大的专注力穿越沙漠。
You seem to want to speed up to get through them as quickly as possible, but often, they require slowing down, and that seems counterintuitive.
你似乎想加快速度以尽快完成它们，但通常情况下，它们需要放慢速度，这似乎违反直觉。
You have to walk when the temperatures are congenial to your survival.
当气温适合你的生存时，你必须步行。
Sometimes that means walking at night as opposed to the day.
有时这意味着晚上行走而不是白天行走。
It means maybe not covering the distances that you would in more moderate climates.
这意味着可能无法覆盖在更温和的气候下所能覆盖的距离。
Deserts are like a prickly friend.
沙漠就像一个多刺的朋友。
You approach them with care, but if you invest the time, they’re pretty inspiring and remarkable.
你会小心翼翼地接触他们，但如果你投入时间，他们会非常鼓舞人心且非凡。
There are reasons why old hermits go out into the deserts to seek visions.
老隐士前往沙漠寻求异象是有原因的。
I was born in a desert.
我出生在沙漠里。
I was born in the Mojave Desert of Southern California, so I’m partial to them, maybe even by birth.
我出生在南加州的莫哈韦沙漠，所以我偏爱他们，甚至可能是天生的。
Do you find deserts to be the most difficult terrain to cross?
您认为沙漠是最难穿越的地形吗？
No, I find alpine mountains to be far trickier.
不，我发现高山要棘手得多。
Deserts can be fickle.
沙漠可能变化无常。
Deserts can kill you if you’re not careful.
如果你不小心的话，沙漠会杀死你。
Of course, water is the most limiting factor for survival.
当然，水是生存的最大限制因素。
But alpine mountain weather is so unpredictable, and a very sunny afternoon can turn into a very stormy late afternoon in a very quick time period.
但高山天气如此难以预测，一个阳光明媚的下午可能会在很短的时间内变成暴风雨的下午。
Threats like rock falls, like avalanches, blizzards — those, for me, are far more difficult to navigate than deserts.
像岩崩、雪崩、暴风雪这样的威胁，对我来说，比沙漠更难应对。
Also, I guess having been born in the subtropics, I don’t weather the cold as well, so there’s that bias thrown in.
另外，我想我出生在亚热带，所以也不能忍受寒冷，所以存在这种偏见。
What do you do for exercise?
你做什么运动？
Try to meet deadline, mostly.
大多数情况下，尽量在截止日期前完成。
But when I’m parked in an urban area to do work, which happens regularly — this project is taking more than twice as long as originally envisioned — I try to do what you do.
但是，当我把车停在市区工作时，这种情况经常发生 ——“这个项目花费的时间是最初设想的两倍多”—— 我会尝试做你所做的事情。
I try to go jogging.
我尝试去慢跑。
I do push-ups and sit-ups in the room that I’m working in.
我在工作的房间里做俯卧撑和仰卧起坐。
On very rare occasions, I’ve actually gone to a gym.
在极少数情况下，我实际上去了健身房。
In Bishkek, with a bunch of Russian bodybuilders, I stood out, the skinny American guy of a certain age — to keep in condition, especially for rugged topography.
在比什凯克，与一群俄罗斯健美运动员在一起时，我脱颖而出，这个到了一定年龄的瘦瘦的美国男人——为了保持体形，尤其是在崎岖的地形上。
In that case, it was getting over the Pamir Mountains in the Hindu Kush.
在这种情况下，它正在翻越兴都库什山脉的帕米尔山脉。
Mostly, when I’m in motion, the beauty of walking, as you know, is that it keeps you trim.
大多数情况下，当我在运动时，正如你所知，步行的美妙之处在于它能让你保持苗条。
It keeps your cardiovascular system in good nick, keeps you toned, and it’s relatively low-impact, right?
它可以让你的心血管系统保持良好状态，让你保持健康，而且影响相对较小，对吧？
You can do a lot of steps.
您可以执行很多步骤。
You eventually do, I’m told, wear out cartilage.
有人告诉我，你最终会磨损软骨。
I don’t know where that’s going to happen, but so far so good.
我不知道这会发生在哪里，但到目前为止一切都很好。
Yes, so far so good.
是的，到目前为止一切顺利。
If someone is thinking of doing a version of your project but maybe much smaller — say they want to walk across New Jersey — what is it you would caution them about or tell them?
如果有人正在考虑做你的项目的一个版本，但可能要小得多 —— 假设他们想步行穿越新泽西州 —— 你会警告他们或告诉他们什么？
“Well, you may not have thought about this problem, but you need to worry about this.” What would that be?
“好吧，你可能没有想过这个问题，但你需要担心这个。”那会是什么？
Tyler, I wouldn’t have a clue because I can’t imagine giving somebody advice to do what I’m doing.
泰勒，我不知道，因为我无法想象给别人建议去做我正在做的事情。
My needs and predilections probably don’t match anybody else walking across New Jersey or down to the local convenience store.
我的需求和偏好可能与其他走过新泽西州或去当地便利店的人不一样。
Look up.
抬头。
Don’t always look down at your feet, which is a tendency to do when you’re walking, right?
不要总是低头看着自己的脚，这是走路时的习惯，对吗？
Take a look around now and then and don’t walk too fast.
时不时地环顾四周，不要走得太快。
COWEN: Do you ever just look at your phone when you’re walking, the way you would see in, say, a North American city?
COWEN：你走路的时候有没有只看手机，就像在北美城市一样？
So many young people, they’re just staring — or older people — just staring at their phones.
很多年轻人只是盯着手机，而老年人则只是盯着手机。
Yes, sometimes I have to.
是的，有时我必须这样做。
I’ve got to say that I’m not an agent of virtue on the use of the phone.
我必须说，我不是使用手机的美德代理人。
I use it for navigation when I can get a signal.
当我能收到信号时，我用它来导航。
I sometimes have to communicate with logistics while I’m on the move, but I try to turn the phone off when I’m walking.
有时我在旅途中必须与物流沟通，但我会在走路时尝试关闭手机。
I generally put it on airplane mode in a pocket somewhere so that I can focus on what I’m doing.
我通常把它放在口袋里的飞行模式下，这样我就可以专注于我正在做的事情。
It’s an amazing tool.
这是一个了不起的工具。
Can you imagine trying to do this with paper maps?
你能想象尝试用纸质地图做到这一点吗？
I love paper maps.
我喜欢纸质地图。
As a kid, I loved maps, like a lot of boys did.
小时候，我像很多男孩一样喜欢地图。
I still do, but the ability to call up satellite imagery on this little device and stare at where you are and try to find a safe way over a glacial moraine is pretty unbeatable.
我仍然这样做，但是在这个小设备上调用卫星图像并盯着你所在的位置并尝试找到一条越过冰川冰碛的安全路线的能力是无与伦比的。
It’s something that I thank heavens I’ve got over Marco Polo.
感谢老天，我从马可·波罗那里得到了这一点。
What kind of reading or prep do you do for each region?
您为每个地区做了哪些阅读或准备？
Or how do you choose what to consume?
或者说你如何选择消费什么？
How does that process work?
这个过程是如何进行的？
It starts pretty much the way foreign correspondents do their reading.
它的开头几乎和外国记者的阅读方式一样。
You read other foreign correspondents’ work, mostly in your own language.
你阅读其他外国记者的作品，大部分是用你自己的语言写的。
I can read in Spanish, too, but the vast bulk of what I read is in English.
我也可以阅读西班牙语，但我读到的大部分内容都是英文的。
I read reporters’ books, which lead to going to more specialized reading on everything, from climate to human rights to geology to biodiversity to language extinction.
我读记者的书籍，这导致我对一切事物进行更专业的阅读，从气候到人权到地质学到生物多样性到语言灭绝。
It’s just endless.
这简直是无止境的。
In a way, all the years that I’ve been working as an international correspondent have kind of been prep work.
在某种程度上，我担任国际记者的这些年都是在做准备工作。
The way I would approach a big story in Africa back when I was based in Johannesburg is pretty much the way I continue to approach research on this project, the difference being that now, because I’ve slowed down and taken more time, I can access more indigenous systems of knowledge that I didn’t have the time to do before.
当我在约翰内斯堡时，我处理非洲重大事件的方式与我继续处理这个项目的研究方式差不多，不同之处在于，现在，因为我放慢了速度并花了更多时间，我可以访问更多我以前没有时间做的本土知识体系。
That involves everything from talking to a farmer who can instruct me on how gophers might predict weather by the shape of the berms that they push out of their holes in the morning — whether rain is coming or not — to talking to scientists from the regions that I’m walking to, talking to archeologists, talking to agronomists, talking to road-builders, talking to engineers, talking to the guys digging the ditch and putting a gas pipeline in, which just happened two days ago, and watching in wonder as they’re laying PVC pipe next to a river in western China, a fascinating, amazing technology that makes you both alarmed to be human but also proud to be human.
这涉及到一切，从与一位农民交谈，他可以指导我地鼠如何通过早晨从洞中推出的护堤的形状来预测天气 ——“是否会下雨”——到与我步行前往的地区的科学家交谈，与考古学家交谈，与农学家交谈，与道路建设者交谈，与工程师交谈，与挖沟渠和铺设天然气管道的人交谈，两天前刚刚发生的事情，你惊奇地看着他们在中国西部的一条河边铺设 PVC 管道，这是一项令人着迷、令人惊叹的技术，让你既为人类感到震惊，又为人类感到自豪。
We’re clever creatures.
我们是聪明的生物。
How do you fund the whole venture?
您如何为整个企业提供资金？
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
It’s funded by other philanthropies.
它由其他慈善机构资助。
The National Geographic Society is our main partner, and me and my walking partners provide them with editorial content and also work with them on educational fronts, but there’s a changing caravan of philanthropic partners.
国家地理学会是我们的主要合作伙伴，我和我的步行伙伴为他们提供编辑内容，并在教育领域与他们合作，但慈善合作伙伴队伍也在不断变化。
Some come in for a year or two and then drop out, and then they’re replaced by others.
有些人进来一两年就退出了，然后又被其他人取代。
It’s pretty remarkable, I’ve got to say.
我不得不说，这非常了不起。
It’s such a long project.
这是一个如此漫长的项目。
I don’t know too many projects like this that are longitudinally so far over the horizon, and I’ve been blessed to have partners who have that kind of over-the-horizon vision and who’ve stuck with me, such as National Geographic.
我不知道有太多这样的项目，它们纵向地超出了地平线，而且我很幸运能够拥有具有超视距视野并一直支持我的合作伙伴，例如国家地理。
Do you have to raise new money as you go on, or is it all taken care of?
你是否必须在继续经营的过程中筹集新的资金，还是一切都已经解决了？
No, I do have to raise money.
不，我必须筹集资金。
We also crowdfund.
我们还众筹。
We love it that our readers help keep this project going, so we have a crowdfunder every year.
我们很高兴我们的读者帮助这个项目继续进行，所以我们每年都会有一个众筹者。
It’s not easy, but it’s part of what we do.
这并不容易，但这是我们工作的一部分。
It’s necessary.
有必要。
Where’s the best food you’ve had?
你吃过的最好吃的食物在哪里？
Food, huh?
食物吧？
Your favorite.
你最喜欢的。
I love the food in southwest China, by the way.
顺便说一下，我喜欢中国西南地区的食物。
I’m sure you enjoy that.
我相信你喜欢这样。
Oh my gosh, yes.
天哪，是的。
Just the ingredients that go into Yunnanese food is a whole miracle in itself.
云南菜的原料本身就是一个奇迹。
The cornucopia, what gets grown in Yunnan.
聚宝盆，云南产的。
The mushrooms, right?
蘑菇，对吗？
Wild mushrooms, the fresh veggies, the dairy products, the stuff that hangs in the trees, the stuff that grows in the fields in autumn.
野生蘑菇、新鲜蔬菜、乳制品、挂在树上的东西、秋天田野里生长的东西。
I walked through western Yunnan in the harvest season in October, and it was glorious.
十月丰收的季节，我徒步走过滇西，风光旖旎。
It’s this edible landscape.
这就是这片可食用的风景。
I’ve said this to my Chinese friends.
我已经对我的中国朋友说过这句话了。
I don’t think I’ve been through such a physically exhilarating landscape on foot as Yunnan.
我想我还没有经历过像云南这样令人身心愉悦的风景。
Yunnan just blew my socks off and made my eyes pop out.
云南简直让我大吃一惊，眼睛都瞪出来了。
It is one of these places that people live in and have worked in for so long — working the land — that there’s this remarkable interaction between people and landscape.
这是人们居住和工作了很长时间的地方之一——“耕种土地”——人与景观之间存在着这种非凡的互动。
We’re talking fields in the hillsides that have been farmed for thousands of years, and they have these rounded slopes, the way human shoulders are rounded.
我们谈论的是山坡上的田地，这些田地已经耕种了数千年，它们有这些圆形的斜坡，就像人类的肩膀是圆形的一样。
The land itself seems anthropomorphic.
这片土地本身似乎是拟人化的。
To use a new-agey description, there’s this kind of harmony.
用新时代的形容词来说，就是这种和谐。
The landscape in the human-built landscape is still human-scaled.
人造景观中的景观仍然是人文尺度的。
The villages are made of stone, and the roads between them are designed for human bodies that walk or horses that walk.
村庄是用石头建成的，村庄之间的道路是为行走的人或行走的马设计的。
It was remarkable.
这是非常了不起的。
It was wonderful.
太棒了。
The food — I could make a long list.
食物 —— 我可以列一长串。
Turkey — incredible garden vegetables in Anatolia, and yogurts.
土耳其——安纳托利亚令人难以置信的花园蔬菜和酸奶。
In the Caucasus, khachapuri, and in Central Asia — plov in Uzbekistan.
在高加索地区的khachapuri，以及中亚的乌兹别克斯坦的plov。
India — I hope people realize, when they go to an Indian restaurant outside of India, that they are being exposed to one fractal of a kaleidoscopic cosmos of flavors that is so diverse, even within small regions of India.
印度——我希望人们意识到，当他们去印度境外的一家印度餐馆时，他们接触到的是千变万化的风味宇宙的一个分形，即使在印度的小区域内，这种风味也是如此多样化。
I’d never been to India before this project, so it was a revelation to me.
在这个项目之前我从未去过印度，所以这对我来说是一个启示。
And now China — China, as you know, is a nation of foodies.
而现在的中国——众所周知，中国是一个吃货的国家。
Everybody’s concerned with food here, so it’s been amazing.
每个人都关心这里的食物，所以这真是太棒了。
Yunnan may be my favorite part of the world.
云南可能是我最喜欢的地方。
Why is India such a good place to walk?
为什么印度是一个散步的好地方？
Because Indians will certainly tell you that it is.
因为印度人肯定会告诉你是的。
Yes.
是的。
People are still on foot by the million, whether it’s on pilgrimage or getting to work and back or getting to the fields.
数百万人仍然步行，无论是朝圣、上班、返回还是下田。
I was always in walking company in India.
在印度，我总是和步行结伴。
I walked how far?
我走了多远？
I think close to 3,800 kilometers across India and spent 17 months doing it because it was just so fascinating.
我认为穿越印度近 3,800 公里并花了 17 个月完成它，因为它是如此令人着迷。
I was stopping all the time through northern India, which is its own India, very different from southern India.
我一直在印度北部停留，那里是印度自己的国家，与印度南部非常不同。
But yes, there were walkers every day.
但是，是的，每天都有步行者。
You could ask somebody — and this is important if you’re walking horizon to horizon — for directions, and the directions would be accurate because the teller of the directions had paced off part of those landscapes.
你可以向某人询问方向，如果你要在地平线之间行走，这一点很重要，而且方向会很准确，因为指路的人已经在那些风景的一部分上走了一圈。
Whereas in motorized societies — and I’ve written about this — it’s pointless to talk to somebody in a car — if you’re on foot — about directions because the scale of their sense of landscape is limited to these strips of asphalt that are a few meters wide that wheeled vehicles can go on.
而在机动化社会中 ——我已经写过关于这一点的文章—— 与车里的人交谈 ——如果你步行 —— 谈论方向是没有意义的，因为他们的景观感知范围仅限于轮式车辆可以行驶的几米宽的沥青带。
Beyond that, it’s just this moving tableau that’s an abstraction.
除此之外，这个动人的画面只是一个抽象。
In India, people can tell you shortcuts.
在印度，人们可以告诉你捷径。
They can tell you where the best tree is to take a break, where the best temple is to sleep at night, where the next jug of water waiting the foot traveler lies ahead.
他们可以告诉你哪里是最适合休息的树，哪里是最适合晚上睡觉的寺庙，哪里是等待徒步旅行者的下一壶水就在前方。
India was marvelous.
印度太棒了。
I felt among a brotherhood and sisterhood of walkers there.
我感受到那里的步行者之间的兄弟情谊。
Where has been the worst food of your journey?
你旅途中最难吃的食物是哪里？
Oh gosh, how to be diplomatic?
天哪，如何外交？
It was wonderful, but meat-consuming societies, pastoral societies that rely on a large intake of both dairy products and meat is fantastic and delicious, but I have trouble eating it day after day after day.
这真是太棒了，但是吃肉的社会，依赖大量摄入乳制品和肉类的游牧社会是美妙而美味的，但我日复一日地吃它却遇到了麻烦。
Parts of Central Asia were probably the most challenging for me.
中亚部分地区对我来说可能是最具挑战性的。
That said, I will happily eat anything at all.
也就是说，我会很高兴吃任何东西。
That’s a necessity of maybe doing this kind of thing — you can’t be picky, and you certainly don’t want to turn your nose up at food that’s offered as a blessing to you, sometimes from people who don’t have much themselves.
也许做这种事是有必要的——你不能挑剔，你当然不想对那些作为祝福而提供给你的食物嗤之以鼻，有时这些食物来自那些自己没有太多东西的人。
I try.
我尝试一下。
Whereas I love food, Tyler, I’m not a foodie myself.
虽然我喜欢食物，泰勒，但我自己并不是美食家。
I’m very happy with whatever is shared.
我对分享的一切都很满意。
Where did you get the most sick?
你在哪里病得最严重？
I got sick in two places over the last nine years, and this might be a testament to how walking keeps you healthy.
在过去的九年里，我在两个地方生病了，这可能证明了步行如何保持健康。
I caught a walking pneumonia in Palestine after coming out of the sterile deserts of Saudi Arabia for months and months.
我从沙特阿拉伯的贫瘠沙漠出来几个月后，在巴勒斯坦患上了行走性肺炎。
I think my resistance was low.
我觉得我的抵抗力很低。
Then I walked into a very population-dense corner of that part of the world and picked up a bug while walking in the rain and had to stop the Walk because I got pretty sick.
然后我走进了世界那个地区人口非常密集的角落，在雨中行走时感染了一只虫子，不得不停止步行，因为我病得很厉害。
Then in the second place, I had some waterborne sickness in Lahore in Pakistan.
其次，我在巴基斯坦拉合尔患了一些水传播疾病。
No doubt — I don’t know where I got it, but wherever I got it from, I’m sure I enjoyed it because the food was also quite extraordinary in Pakistan.
毫无疑问 —— 我不知道我从哪里得到它，但无论我从哪里得到它，我确信我很喜欢它，因为巴基斯坦的食物也很特别。
During earlier COVID times, you were just stuck in Myanmar.
在新冠疫情早期，您被困在缅甸。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
You couldn’t cross into China?
你不能进入中国吗？
Yes, that’s right.
是的，没错。
At first, COVID was locking down the borders and making it very difficult to proceed on to China.
起初，新冠疫情封锁了边境，使得前往中国变得非常困难。
I planned to walk north through northern Myanmar, through Kachin to the Ruili border, crossing into Yunnan, and then in February — as you know — of last year, there was a coup, and that sealed the door closed, for sure.
我本来打算向北走，穿过缅北，穿过克钦邦，到瑞丽边境，进入云南，然后在去年二月份——你知道的——发生了政变，肯定把门关上了。
I had to break the Walk for the first time and get on a plane and fly ahead — which I’d never done before, since 2013 — to go into China and then backtrack to the nearest place at the border of Myanmar to then proceed.
我必须第一次打破徒步路线，登上飞机，向前飞——这是我从 2013 年以来从未做过的——进入中国，然后折回最近的缅甸边境地点继续前进。
Whereas that is unfortunate, it’s also part of the story.
虽然这很不幸，但这也是故事的一部分。
It’s also part of the journey, of what it’s like to walk around the world, early in this century, through a pandemic and a coup.
这也是本世纪初经历一场大流行和一场政变而环游世界的旅程的一部分。
The times when you’ve gotten in trouble — and here, I’m not even talking necessarily about the Walk, but your whole career as a journalist — what is it that has happened or led you to get into those kinds of trouble?
当你遇到麻烦的时候 ——在这里，我什至不一定谈论步行，而是你作为记者的整个职业生涯 —— 发生了什么或导致你陷入这些麻烦？
And are you able to talk about those instances?
您能谈谈这些例子吗？
Sudan, Pakistan.
苏丹、巴基斯坦。
Yes.
是的。
I’m happy to talk about them, Tyler, in a general way.
泰勒，我很高兴以一般性的方式谈论它们。
But also — and I don’t mean to sound Pollyannaish — but the focus of journalists on the trouble that they get into seems to me maybe a little bit unsavory, given the circumstances of the people who you’re covering in those scrapes.
但同时——我并不是想表现得盲目乐观，但在我看来，记者们把注意力集中在他们所遇到的麻烦上，可能有点令人不快，因为考虑到你所报道的那些人的处境。
Whatever happened to me, and I genuinely believe this — this is not a cop-out to not tell the story — whatever happened to me in Africa or elsewhere, or the tough times I got into, I volunteered to go into those situations.
无论我身上发生了什么，我真诚地相信这一点——“这不是不讲故事的逃避”——“无论我在非洲或其他地方发生了什么，或者我陷入了艰难时期，我都自愿进入这些情况。
I went into them open-eyed, whereas almost every other human being around me, who I was ostensibly writing about, did not.
我对他们睁大了眼睛，而我周围的几乎所有其他人，我表面上写的，却没有。
It was thrust on them.
这是强加给他们的。
The hardships that I endured in those places — it seems just a bit unsavory to dwell on them, given what everybody else was suffering at the time.
我在那些地方所经历的艰辛——考虑到当时其他人正在遭受的苦难，沉迷于它们似乎有点令人不快。
How do you think of your work as a kind of rethink of journalism or what journalism can be or should be?
您如何看待您的工作是对新闻业的一种重新思考，或者新闻业可以是什么或应该是什么？
Yes, there’s a dichotomy here.
是的，这里有一个二分法。
On the one hand, the Out of Eden Walk is most definitely envisioned as a laboratory, a studio of experimentation for immersive journalism, a kind of reportage that’s been around for a long time.
一方面，“走出伊甸园”绝对被设想为一个实验室，一个沉浸式新闻实验的工作室，一种已经存在很长时间的报告文学。
You can call it slow journalism, but it really is just immersive journalism, right?
你可以称之为慢新闻，但它确实只是沉浸式新闻，对吧？
If you’re going to do a story about the oil industry, and you’re going to spend seven months working at a gas station in the Midwest of the United States to find out where petroleum flows are coming from around the world through that one gas station, and you’re going to dedicate yourself to it by working as a clerk at that gas station as well as getting documents to show that you can actually trace where that gasoline comes from — that, I suppose, can be called slow journalism, too, and I’ve been doing that for years.
如果你要写一个关于石油工业的故事，你要在美国中西部的一个加油站工作七个月，找出来自世界各地的石油通过这个加油站流向哪里，你要全身心地投入到这个工作中，在那个加油站做一名职员，并获取文件来证明你实际上可以追踪汽油的来源——我想，这也可以被称为慢新闻报道，我这样做已经很多年了。
I think the Walk’s difference, though, is — as opposed to one-off projects, even weighty projects, projects that ran really deep that I could spend a year on, whatever, following a Russian gunrunner through Africa or whatnot for months and months — the difference with the Walk, and it is really a significant one, is there’s an interconnectedness between the stories that appear before me and my walking partners.
不过，我认为步行的不同之处在于“与一次性项目不同，甚至是重量级的项目，这些项目运行得非常深入，我可以花一年的时间，无论如何，跟踪一名俄罗斯军火走私者穿过非洲或诸如此类的几个月”与步行的区别，这确实是一个重要的区别，是出现在我和我的步行伙伴面前的故事之间存在相互关联。
They’re not atomized.
它们没有被雾化。
They’re not happening in little boxes called environmental story, culture story, political story, economic story.
它们并不是发生在环境故事、文化故事、政治故事、经济故事的小盒子里。
These artificial constructs that journalism creates — understandably, because the world’s complicated, and part of the job is trying to make it comprehensible, and you build a frame around it.
新闻业创造的这些人为构造是可以理解的，因为世界是复杂的，而工作的一部分就是试图让它变得易于理解，而你围绕它构建了一个框架。
But we all know that frame is artificial or, to some degree, arbitrary because the economic story is, in fact, attached to the health story, which is attached to a conflict story, which is attached to .
但我们都知道，这个框架是人为的，或者在某种程度上是任意的，因为经济故事实际上是依附于健康故事的，而健康故事又依附于冲突故事，而冲突故事又依附于冲突故事。
.
。
.
。
The way I’ve put it before is that you pull on one story.
我之前的说法是，你可以讲一个故事。
You tug on one story a little bit.
你稍微拉扯一个故事。
You find that it’s connected to another story that’s connected to another story that’s connected to another story all the way over the horizon, and the Walk is a perfect instrument to show that.
你会发现它与另一个故事相连，而另一个故事又与另一个故事相连，而这个故事又与地平线上的另一个故事相连，而步行是展示这一点的完美工具。
The interconnectedness of critical issues that face us all today in the world are highlighted and showcased when you take a journey through them, when you’re literally walking through these headlines and showing that they merge into each other.
当你浏览这些问题时，当你真正浏览这些头条新闻并显示它们相互融合时，当今世界所有人面临的关键问题的相互关联性就会得到突出和展示。
There’s no boundary.
没有界限。
There’s no wall.
没有墙。
There’s no white space on a page in a magazine or on a webpage.
杂志或网页的页面上没有空白。
The text just smears into the next story.
文字只是涂抹到下一个故事中。
The Walk has been marvelous at doing that — these diagonal connections, not rectilinear ones, not X and Y axes, but something that cuts across, cuts the onion in a diagonal that shows how these stories are overlapping and touch on each other and touch on us.
《The Walk》在这方面做得非常出色——这些对角线连接不是直线的，不是 X 轴和 Y 轴，而是一种交叉的东西，以对角线切洋葱，展示了这些故事是如何重叠、相互接触和接触我们的。
That’s Out of Eden Walk’s — to date — meta takeaway, the one that I share, say, with students when I talk to them about things like writing and reportage.
这是《Eden Walk》的“迄今为止”的元外卖，当我与学生谈论写作和报告文学等话题时，我会与他们分享这一点。
How did your early police reporting job shape what you’re doing now?
您早期的警察报道工作如何影响您现在所做的事情？
That’s a kind of slow journalism, or it can be, right?
这是一种缓慢的新闻报道，或者可以是，对吧？
It’s counterintuitive because it’s often fast.
这是违反直觉的，因为它通常很快。
The most concrete kind of way it informed me is by training me to stay up all night.
它告诉我的最具体的方式是训练我熬夜。
I can pull all-nighters, because if you’re a cop reporter, you don’t have a nine-to-five gig.
我可以通宵工作，因为如果你是一名警察记者，你就没有朝九晚五的工作。
You’re up at 3:30 in the morning, whenever you get some sort of notice that something’s going down downtown, and you’d better be there.
你凌晨 3:30 就起床了，每当你收到市中心有事的通知时，你最好就在现场。
So, it’s fast, to be honest.
所以，说实话，速度很快。
Cop reporting, at least the police reporting that I did at a small-town newspaper, is you’re writing the police blotter, and you’re picking the two or three big crimes or stories of the day, and you’re writing them short and tight.
警察报道，至少是我在一家小镇报纸上做的警察报道，是你写警察记事本，你挑选当天的两三个重大犯罪或故事，然后把它们写得简短而紧凑。
You’re doing an awful lot of zipping around on a motorbike between crime scenes and trying to make sense of it.
你骑着摩托车在犯罪现场之间穿梭，并试图弄清楚其中的意义。
What it does tell you, what it does inform in my reporting later is just how’s this — there’s this subterranean world below the veneer of normalcy.
它确实告诉了你，它在我稍后的报告中确实告诉了你这是怎么回事 —— 在正常的表象之下有这个地下世界。
I worked in a small town called Roswell, New Mexico.
我在新墨西哥州一个叫罗斯威尔的小镇工作。
I think it had a few tens of thousands of people.
我想它有几万人。
Its newspaper, when it had a paper newspaper —
它的报纸，当它有纸质报纸时 ——
We all know Roswell, right?
我们都知道罗斯威尔，对吧？
Yes, this is before it became the alien capital of America, though.
是的，不过这是在它成为美国的外国首都之前。
This was back before it jumped on that shtick.
这是在它跳上那个小玩意之前的情况。
It was just a cow and natural gas town, out on the Llano Estacado of New Mexico.
那只是一个奶牛和天然气小镇，位于新墨西哥州埃斯塔卡多平原。
If you drove through it, it looked like any other kind of rural town in the semi-arid Southwest.
如果你开车经过它，它看起来就像半干旱的西南部任何其他乡村小镇一样。
But what police reporting shows is all the tensions, the ethnic tensions, and the stringency of the social mores in a small town where everybody knows everybody’s business.
但警方的报告显示的是，在一个每个人都知道每个人的事的小镇上，所有的紧张局势、种族紧张局势以及社会习俗的严格性。
It puts enormous pressure on people so that sometimes they react with bad behavior, right?
它给人们带来了巨大的压力，以至于有时他们会做出不良行为，对吗？
It comes out through police reporting.
这是通过警方的报告得出的。
That, to me, as a young guy on his first job — I was like 24.
对我来说，作为一个刚开始第一份工作的年轻人 —— 我当时大约 24 岁。
I didn’t know anything about journalism, and they just gave me that.
我对新闻业一无所知，他们只是给了我这些。
Tyler, it’s the entry-level job in most newspapers.
泰勒，这是大多数报纸的入门级工作。
You do the cop beat.
你执行警察殴打。
It was really illuminating about the invisibility of the story, that the invisible stories are often sometimes the most telling when you’re writing about societies, number one, and number two, developing connections and contacts with everybody — not just the police, but with the people who are breaking the law.
这个故事的隐形确实很有启发性，当你写关于社会的第一和第二，与每个人建立联系和联系时，隐形的故事有时往往是最有说服力的——不仅是警察，还包括违法者。
How did working on scalloping boats shape your current project?
扇形船上的工作对您当前的项目有何影响？
Again, another great job to develop endurance for sleeplessness, working shifts on a scalloper out of New Bedford where you, basically, are switched on 20 hours a day, day after day after day at sea.
再说一遍，这是另一项培养失眠耐力的好工作，那就是在新贝德福德的扇贝上轮班工作，基本上每天工作 20 个小时，日复一日地在海上工作。
I’ve never made these.
我从来没有做过这些。
These are good questions.
这些都是好问题。
Clearly, they have informed my work throughout.
显然，他们贯穿了我的工作。
The thing that I like to do — and I can’t always do it, but if I have the opportunity — is join people in work.
我喜欢做的事情——虽然我不能总是这样做，但如果我有机会——那就是与人们一起工作。
If you can get into somebody’s workshop, if you can get into somebody’s field, if you can get onto somebody’s canoe, somebody’s boat, if you can join them pushing sheep across the Anatolian Plain, you are going to be admitted into that person’s world.
如果你能进入某人的作坊，如果你能进入某人的田地，如果你能登上某人的独木舟，某人的船，如果你能和他们一起赶羊穿越安纳托利亚平原，你就会被允许进入那个人的世界。
And you’re going to be able to see that person’s identity in a way — self-identity, how they self-identify.
你将能够以某种方式看到那个人的身份——自我认同，他们如何自我认同。
People identify themselves by the work they do in ways that many, many long interviews, sitting in a newsroom, will just not get.
人们通过他们所做的工作来识别自己，这是坐在新闻编辑室里进行的许多、许多长篇采访所无法获得的。
Working on scallopers and in all these other manual jobs that I did when I was younger helped me comprehend that fact, that there’s a really quick way into somebody’s head and heart, picking up the tools that they’re using and working alongside them.
我年轻时做过的扇贝工作和所有其他体力工作帮助我理解了一个事实，即有一种非常快速的方式进入某人的头脑和内心，拿起他们正在使用的工具并与他们一起工作。
How did growing up in Central Mexico help shape this project?
在墨西哥中部长大对这个项目有何帮助？
As you know, there’s a long-standing Central Mexican tradition of walking porters.
如您所知，墨西哥中部有步行搬运工的悠久传统。
In pre-Conquest times, they carried salt around, I think, even through the late 18th century.
我想，在征服之前的时期，他们就带着盐四处走动，甚至一直持续到 18 世纪末。
Salt and guacamaya feathers, and you name it.
盐和鳄梨羽毛，凡是你能想到的。
Well, that’s maybe when this project really started, right?
嗯，也许这就是这个项目真正开始的时候，对吧？
You can make the argument that that’s when my journey began, was when my parents took me across my first international border.
你可以说那是我的旅程开始的时候，是我父母带我跨越我的第一个国际边界的时候。
I was five and a half, pulled out of kindergarten in Southern California and thrust into Mexican public schools from one day to the next.
我当时五岁半，从南加州的幼儿园退学，日复一日地进入墨西哥公立学校。
Growing up in a small community on the edge of a big, sprawling, exploding city — Guadalajara — back when I was growing up in this place, it was called Zapopan.
我在一个庞大的、不断扩张的、爆炸性的大城市边缘的一个小社区长大——瓜达拉哈拉——当我在这个地方长大时，它被称为萨波潘。
There were corn fields, and all my friends, my Mexican playmates, were the sons and daughters of farmers.
那里有玉米地，我所有的朋友，我的墨西哥玩伴，都是农民的儿女。
If I went back today, I would not be able to find my old home because it’s been completely absorbed by urbanization.
如果我今天回去，我就找不到我的老家了，因为它已经完全被城市化所吞没了。
I think that gift that my parents gave me and my brothers and sisters was the primordial key to the storytelling that I’m still doing.
我认为我的父母给我和我的兄弟姐妹的礼物是我仍在做的讲故事的原始关键。
In a sense, I’m still walking back to Mexico, right?
从某种意义上说，我仍然走回墨西哥，对吧？
Sure.
当然。
When you’re doing your walking, what kind of very local media coverage do you get?
当您散步时，您会得到哪些当地媒体的报道？
There are, obviously, articles about you in, say, US periodicals, but I mean coverage in the places where you’re at.
显然，美国期刊上有关于您的文章，但我指的是您所在地方的报道。
Yes.
是的。
You name it: radio, TV, online digital news pages, all along the route.
你能想到的：广播、电视、在线数字新闻页面，一切都在沿途。
You’ll do interviews with them?
你会采访他们吗？
If they ask for an interview, you’ll typically do it?
如果他们要求面试，你通常会接受吗？
Typically, I will because that’s part of the mission, to work with colleagues and to interact with colleagues.
通常情况下，我会这样做，因为这是使命的一部分，与同事合作并与同事互动。
I also give workshops when I can.
我也会尽可能举办研讨会。
Yes, it’s very, very cooperative.
是的，这是非常非常合作的。
How do you teach journalism differently than other people do?
您教授新闻学的方式与其他人有何不同？
The model that I’ve been using involves walking.
我一直使用的模型涉及步行。
We set up a workspace in somebody’s house in downtown old-city Kolkata.
我们在加尔各答市中心老城区某人的家里设立了一个工作空间。
We invite colleagues to come spend a week with us there, and we say, “We want you to go out on foot and find a story within one kilometer of here.” And you go find it on foot, and you report it on foot.
我们邀请同事来我们这里度过一周，我们说：“我们希望你们步行出去，在距离这里一公里的范围内寻找一个故事。”你步行找到它，然后步行报告它。
That’s a mechanism to slow people down, to get them off staring at their phones, grazing the internet for information, which is part of the process, but I think we rely on it too much.
这是一种让人们放慢脚步的机制，让他们不再盯着手机、在互联网上寻找信息，这是这个过程的一部分，但我认为我们过于依赖它了。
Start using your body as one of the main instruments for information-gathering.
开始使用您的身体作为信息收集的主要工具之一。
Yes, spoke and wheel, have a hub, and send people out radially to go find their stories, and then work with them throughout the days to deepen and sharpen their vision of what they’re writing about.
是的，辐条和轮子，有一个枢纽，并派出人们放射状地去寻找他们的故事，然后整天与他们一起工作，加深和锐化他们对所写内容的看法。
Do you ever worry that you’ll be somehow overwhelmed by local publicity, like townspeople will start following you?
您是否担心过当地的宣传会不知何故让您不知所措，就像镇上的人会开始追随您一样？
There’ll be a troupe or horde with you everywhere you go, you won’t be able to look at things peacefully anymore, you’ll be too scrutinized.
你走到哪里都会有一群人跟着你，你将无法再平静地看待事物，你会受到太多的审视。
Or is that not in danger of happening?
或者说这没有发生的危险？
Tyler, I was wondering about that early on, the first year or so, but it hasn’t happened yet.
泰勒，我很早就想知道这一点，大约第一年，但它还没有发生。
I think the project is just too low-key, honestly.
老实说，我认为这个项目太低调了。
I think the project is just maybe too slow, right?
我认为这个项目可能太慢了，对吧？
It’ll capture passing attention, but we’re living in a digital age when there’s just this tidal wave of media, and it’s just 1 or 20 stories about the Walk.
它会吸引人们的注意力，但我们生活在一个数字时代，媒体如潮水般涌来，而且只有 1 到 20 个关于步行的故事。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
The Kyrgyz press is going to be there for a few days, but then it’s gone.
吉尔吉斯媒体将在那里呆几天，但随后就消失了。
So no, I’ve never really had to concern myself with, what would you call it?
所以不，我从来没有真正关心过自己，你会怎么称呼它？
What was this American film with Tom Hanks, the guy who was the “Life is like a box of chocolates” guy?
汤姆·汉克斯（Tom Hanks）扮演“生活就像一盒巧克力”的那个人的这部美国电影是什么？
I forget the name of it, but basically, I’m not too concerned with having a coterie of people following along.
我忘记了它的名字，但基本上，我不太关心有一群人跟随。
It hasn’t happened yet.
这还没有发生。
Given all the walking you’ve done, the work you’ve done, as you know, there’s an extensive literature on early human origins and how quickly we got around the globe, mostly on foot.
正如你所知，考虑到你所做的所有步行、所做的工作，有大量关于早期人类起源以及我们在全球范围内移动的速度（大部分是步行）的文献。
Has any of your own work revised your views on that, like, it’s easier than people think, harder than people think, they must have taken boats?
您自己的作品是否改变了您对此的看法，例如，这比人们想象的容易，比人们想象的困难，他们必须乘船？
Do you have views on those questions?
对于这些问题你有什么看法吗？
Yes, I do every day, and they’re often at loggerheads.
是的，我每天都这样做，但他们经常发生争执。
Walking long distances is not easy.
长途步行并不容易。
It can wear you down physically.
它会让你身体疲惫不堪。
You have to be careful.
你必须小心。
You have to give yourself enough recovery time.
你必须给自己足够的恢复时间。
Pounding the soles of your feet on hard surfaces 30,000 or 40,000 times a day puts stress on your joints.
每天在坚硬的表面上敲击脚底 30,000 或 40,000 次会给关节带来压力。
But the thing is that our ancestors, the original Homo sapiens, who trickled out of Africa at various times in the past, never walked like I do.
但问题是，我们的祖先，即最初的智人，在过去的不同时期从非洲慢慢流出，他们从来没有像我一样走路。
They’re not out, basically, pacing off gigantic landscapes.
基本上，他们并没有在广阔的风景中踱步。
They were hunters and gatherers, so they moved much more methodically, looking for resources 5, 6 miles a day, often in a loop, going back to the same shelter that they were camping and sleeping in, moving in groups of a dozen, up to 40 people, a communal experience.
他们是狩猎者和采集者，所以他们的行动更加有条不紊，每天寻找资源 5、6 英里，经常绕圈，回到他们露营和睡觉的同一个庇护所，以十几人、最多 40 人为一组移动，这是一种共同的经历。
The science, as I remind readers — because, as you might imagine, over the last nine years, the science of ancient human dispersals and origins has changed a lot as new information comes in, and readers write me and say, “Wait, isn’t your hypothesis dated?” I say, “Yes, thank God because science is living.”
正如我提醒读者的那样，科学是因为，正如你可能想象的那样，在过去的九年中，随着新信息的出现，古代人类传播和起源的科学发生了很大变化，读者写信给我说：“等等，你的假设不是过时了吗？”我说：“是的，感谢上帝，因为科学是有生命的。”
Science is a living thing, and it’s a good thing that it keeps changing.
科学是有生命的东西，它不断变化是一件好事。
The basic consensus that we all came out of Africa is still there, but the time frames have changed a lot.
我们都来自非洲的基本共识仍然存在，但时间框架发生了很大变化。
When I left Ethiopia, the consensus was maybe 60,000 to 70,000 years ago — what they called something in the third-wave pulse, the big one that led to the peopling of the world — has been displaced by archeological and fossil finds that are much older, that suggest that people were moving out much, much earlier, more than 100,000 years ago.
当我离开埃塞俄比亚时，共识可能是六万到七万年前——“他们所谓的第三波脉冲，导致世界上出现人类的大脉冲”——已经被更古老的考古和化石发现所取代，这些发现表明人们在更早、更早、十万多年前就已经迁出。
That’s fine by me.
对我来说没问题。
I’m not going to go back and re-walk parts of continents to reflect that change.
我不会回去重新行走部分大陆来反映这种变化。
It’s all part of the record, as it were.
可以说，这都是记录的一部分。
The ease of walking across vast landscapes strikes me maybe because of what I do, because I look at human landscapes, in particular, through the prism of storytelling, and it’s endlessly fascinating and engaging, and it keeps tugging me along.
漫步在广阔的风景中的轻松给我带来了震撼，也许是因为我所做的事情，因为我特别是通过讲故事的棱镜来观察人文景观，它无穷无尽地令人着迷和引人入胜，它一直牵引着我前进。
I find it quite easy, and I never find it boring, ever.
我觉得这很容易，而且我从来不觉得无聊。
But does that match what our ancestors felt?
但这符合我们祖先的感受吗？
I doubt it.
我对此表示怀疑。
Who knows what they were thinking?
谁知道他们在想什么？
We’re talking of huge time frames relative to the human lifespan, and all we can do is speculate about what was going through their imaginations and minds as they were clearing one mountain pass and then the next.
我们谈论的是相对于人类寿命的巨大时间框架，我们所能做的就是推测他们在清理一个山口和下一个山口时的想象力和头脑中发生了什么。
I would tend to think, given the time that I’ve spent with hunter-gatherers, is that their attention was much more closely focused, again, on what was available to eat within 20 meters away, not that snowy mountain peak that the camera pans up to with operatic background music.
我倾向于认为，考虑到我与狩猎采集者一起度过的时间，他们的注意力更加集中在 20 米外可以吃的东西上，而不是镜头随着歌剧背景音乐平移到的雪山山峰。
The increasingly popular view that the New World was settled by multiple waves of arrivals — do you have an opinion on that?
越来越流行的观点是，新世界是由多波移民浪潮所定居的 ——你对此有何看法？
Yes, I think that’s exciting.
是的，我认为这很令人兴奋。
It was less contingent than it seemed, right?
这并不像看上去那么偶然，对吧？
It would’ve happened anyway, no matter what, is, I think, an implication.
无论如何，无论如何，它都会发生，我认为这是一种暗示。
Yes, and complicated.
是的，而且很复杂。
The fact that they’re now making discoveries — undersea discoveries, especially.
事实上，他们现在正在做出发现——尤其是海底发现。
for the New World that’s pushing back the time frame — is amazing and extraordinary.
对于新世界来说，推迟时间框架 —— 是令人惊奇和非凡的。
The resilience of human beings — again, whether you’re hunter-gatherers coming down the western seaboard of North America in canoes or walking across Shaanxi Province — is a source of hope.
人类的韧性——再次强调，无论你是乘独木舟从北美西海岸来到北美西海岸的狩猎采集者，还是徒步穿越陕西省——都是希望的源泉。
It’s one of the things that keeps me going.
这是让我继续前进的事情之一。
What was your biggest surprise when you visited the gorillas in Rwanda?
当您参观卢旺达的大猩猩时，您最大的惊讶是什么？
That was before this project, you realize.
你知道，那是在这个项目之前。
I know, of course.
我当然知道。
Yes, absolutely, but you’ve written about it, and it sounded amazing.
是的，绝对如此，但你已经写过有关它的文章，而且听起来很棒。
What shocked you?
什么让你震惊？
I was sent there to do .
我被派去那里做。
.
。
.
。
It’s been ages since I’ve thought about this.
我已经很久没有思考过这个问题了。
Looking back from the distance of today, when was that?
今天遥望过去，那是什么时候？
That was like mid-’90s, so we’re talking more than 25 years ago.
那是 20 世纪 90 年代中期的事情，所以我们谈论的已经是 25 年前的事了。
What sticks still was being sent there to write about mountain gorillas — which is absolutely a valid decision to make, given the rarity of that species and what our relationship with wild animals has to teach us about being human — versus what was happening in the aftermath of this horrific genocide that had just happened in Rwanda.
仍然令人印象深刻的是被送到那里写关于山地大猩猩的文章——考虑到该物种的稀有性以及我们与野生动物的关系必须教会我们如何成为人类，这绝对是一个正确的决定——而不是卢旺达刚刚发生的这场可怕的种族灭绝之后所发生的事情。
I felt myself to be very torn when I went there as a young reporter on my first assignment for National Geographic.
当我作为一名年轻记者第一次为国家地理杂志拍摄任务时，我感到自己非常痛苦。
I didn’t want to blow it, and yet, at the same time, having spent so many years in Africa as a hardcore conflict reporter, dealing with focusing on wildlife when there were 750,000 refugees living on lava fields just across the border in the Congo.
我不想搞砸，但与此同时，作为一名铁杆冲突记者在非洲工作了这么多年，当有 750,000 名难民生活在刚果边境的熔岩原上时，我一直在关注野生动物。
Some of these refugees were not exactly innocent bystanders to the genocide.
其中一些难民并不是种族灭绝的无辜旁观者。
They were actually the perpetrators of the killings.
他们实际上是杀人事件的凶手。
I don’t even remember exactly how I handled that, but I think I tried to merge those two stories in a way that was maybe more about us than about mountain gorillas.
我什至不记得我是如何处理的，但我想我试图以一种可能更多关于我们而不是关于山地大猩猩的方式合并这两个故事。
I don’t recall if that was successful.
我不记得那是否成功。
What did you like best about Johannesburg?
您最喜欢约翰内斯堡的什么？
So many things about Jozi.
关于乔兹的事情有很多。
It has a bad reputation with tourists, right?
它在游客中的名声很不好，对吗？
Yes, it does.
是的，确实如此。
People say it’s too dangerous.
人们说这太危险了。
Yes.
是的。
I’ve got to say, it’s been a long time since I’ve been there, and I’d be curious to know how things are going.
我不得不说，我已经很久没有去过那里了，我很想知道事情进展如何。
I think I’ve been away from Johannesburg since 2009, so that’s a ways back, but it was the unbeautiful sibling of Cape Town.
我想我自 2009 年起就离开了约翰内斯堡，所以那是很久以前的事了，但那是开普敦的不漂亮的兄弟姐妹。
Cape Town was the San Francisco of South Africa, the place that the tourists flock to, and Johannesburg the place they avoided.
开普敦就像南非的旧金山，是游客蜂拥而至的地方，而约翰内斯堡则是游客避开的地方。
But the grit of Johannesburg, the very toughness of it, the very hardiness of it — it was one of these places that you admire because it is real.
但是约翰内斯堡的勇气，它的坚韧，它的顽强——它是你钦佩的地方之一，因为它是真实的。
It’s not boutiquefied, was what made me love my years there.
它不是精品化的，这让我喜欢在那里的岁月。
That said, I used it, Tyler, as a base, so I was often away.
也就是说，泰勒，我用它作为基地，所以我经常不在。
I would come back to Johannesburg to recharge, but I was often away, maybe half the time of every year — if not more — traveling in Africa, covering other stories.
我会回到约翰内斯堡充电，但我经常不在，也许每年有一半的时间（如果不是更多的话）在非洲旅行，报道其他故事。
Eventually, to get to Tierra del Fuego, how exactly will you cross into the New World?
最终，为了到达火地岛，你究竟将如何穿越进入新世界？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It’s a big question, and this is something that doesn’t have a resolution in the short term.
这是一个大问题，而且短期内无法解决。
Assuming I can get into Russia, how far north can I walk?
假设我能进入俄罗斯，我能向北走多远？
The plan is to walk from the Chinese border north to Magadan and then to take a ship from there to Alaska.
计划是从中国边境向北步行到马加丹，然后从那里乘船前往阿拉斯加。
When I was in Tbilisi, Georgia, I met some people who were operating a schooner, a sailing ship, on the Aleutians, bringing bulk cargo to the indigenous communities of the Aleutians as a way to break the monopoly of airplane cargo, which was so expensive.
当我在格鲁吉亚第比利斯时，我遇到了一些人，他们在阿留申群岛上经营一艘纵帆船，将散装货物运送到阿留申群岛的土著社区，以打破昂贵的飞机货运垄断。
They’re basically a group of young anarchists, and they offered to come to Magadan and pick me up and sail back.
他们基本上是一群年轻的无政府主义者，他们主动提出来马加丹接我并乘船返回。
Gosh, if that offer is still on the table, if I can step into Magadan eventually, that would be an interesting way to go.
天哪，如果这个提议仍然存在，如果我最终能够踏入马加丹，那将是一个有趣的方式。
Other than that, I haven’t given it much thought.
除此之外，我没有考虑太多。
These big logistical questions are hard to contemplate so far in advance because I’ve got so many decisions to make every day — tomorrow — about logistics and what to do and where to go.
这些重大的后勤问题很难提前考虑，因为我每天都有很多关于后勤、做什么和去哪里的决定要做。
The last two questions.
最后两个问题。
First, more proximately, where are you walking to next?
首先，更具体地说，您接下来要去哪里？
I am walking to Xi’an, which, boy, isn’t that a great sentence to utter?
我正步行去西安，孩子，这句话不是说得很好吗？
Oh, wonderful city, yes.
哦，美妙的城市，是的。
Amazing cherries there.
那里有很棒的樱桃。
Don’t neglect those.
不要忽视那些。
Oh, I’ll look for them.
哦，我去找找他们。
It may not be season, actually.
实际上，这可能不是季节。
Yes, well, it’s October.
是的，好吧，现在是十月。
I’m not sure when they would be harvesting.
我不确定他们什么时候才能收获。
They’re harvesting.
他们正在收获。
It depends how fast you get there.
这取决于你到达那里的速度。
Yes.
是的。
I have about a week to 10 days to cross over the Qinling Mountains.
我大约有一周到十天的时间来翻越秦岭。
I’m on the southern foothills, having just crossed over from Sichuan into Shaanxi.
我在南山麓，刚刚从四川穿越到陕西。
Me and my walking partners, Li Huipu and Geng Kun, have a big climb ahead of us, I think up above 3,000 meters.
我和我的徒步伙伴李慧璞和耿坤，前面还有一段很长的路要走，我想是在 3000 米以上。
Then we’ll come down into the basin where Xi’an is.
然后我们就会下到西安所在的盆地。
This is legendary.
这是传奇的。
For me, it still shines with the golden atmosphere of fables and literature.
对我来说，它仍然闪耀着寓言和文学的金色气息。
What’ll be really nice, in my case, is that I’ve been walking towards Xi’an for two to three years, coming across Central Asia, following the Silk Road corridors.
对我来说，真正美好的是，我已经朝着西安行走了两三年，沿着丝绸之路走廊穿越中亚。
I can finally say that I’ve arrived at one of the poles of the Silk Road that I’ve been steering towards for many years.
我终于可以说，我已经到达了多年来我一直朝着的丝绸之路的一极。
Last question: What kind of final product or output or book or videos or movies — what will result from the trip other than the trip itself and its direct ramifications?
最后一个问题：什么样的最终产品或输出或书籍或视频或电影 - 除了旅行本身及其直接后果之外，旅行还会产生什么结果？
If I say, “Oh, I want to buy Paul’s book or see Paul’s movie,” what is it we can look forward to?
如果我说，“哦，我想买保罗的书或看保罗的电影”，我们可以期待什么？
I don’t know, a line of gimme caps?
我不知道，给我一排帽子？
The legacy is layered, so there’s my own work, which is into the hundreds of thousands of words already — I think half a million — 99 percent of it digital.
遗产是分层的，所以我自己的作品已经有数十万字了——我想有五十万字——其中 99% 都是数字化的。
Increasingly, there is the work of walking partners, these extraordinary people who add their amazing talents — photographers, writers, scientists, activists, environmentalists, educators — who just deeply enrich the whole mission of the Walk, to be frank.
步行伙伴的工作越来越多，这些非凡的人加入了他们惊人的才华 ——摄影师、作家、科学家、活动家、环保主义者、教育家——坦率地说，他们极大地丰富了步行的整个使命。
The Walk is now theirs, and I’m almost, in some ways, a spectator in my own journey.
步行街现在是他们的了，从某种程度上来说，我几乎是自己旅程中的旁观者。
It’ll be their work.
这将是他们的工作。
It’ll be my work.
这将是我的工作。
There’ll be educational programming that hopefully goes on as legacy work.
将会有一些教育节目有望作为遗产工作继续下去。
There’ll be exhibitions, perhaps, books.
也许会有展览、书籍。
It’s a lot.
很多。
Maybe you’ll endorse a pair of sneakers, too.
也许您也会推荐一双运动鞋。
I might have to get to that point.
我可能必须达到这一点。
Yes, I might have to get to that point.
是的，我可能必须达到这一点。
It’s just a rare privilege to be able to even wake up every morning in this small town of 1.5 million in northern Shaanxi — Chingu, it’s called — and know that I’ve got some trail ahead of me, and there’ll be some stories waiting along it that I don’t know.
每天早晨，我在陕北这个拥有 150 万人口的小镇——“新谷”——醒来，就知道前面有一条路，而且沿途会有一些我不知道的故事，这真是一种难得的荣幸。
To be able to do that every day is really very motivating.
每天能够做到这一点，真的是非常有动力。
Yes, very motivating.
是的，非常励志。
What happens after Tierra del Fuego — as I’ve said before, I have no plans.
火地岛之后会发生什么——正如我之前所说，我没有计划。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Grow tomatoes like Candide, I don’t know.
像坎迪德那样种西红柿，我不知道。
Paul Salopek, thank you very much.
保罗·萨洛佩克，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。
It’s been great to chat with you.
很高兴与你聊天。
Photo credit: Matthieu Chazal
照片来源：马蒂厄·查扎尔