Michael Orthofer on Why Fiction Matters (Ep. 11)
Michael Orthofer is a man on a mission.
迈克尔·奥索弗 (Michael Orthofer) 是一位肩负使命的人。
In a recent profile of him, New Yorker magazine wrote, “He has so far reviewed a staggering 3,760 books on that site.
《纽约客》杂志最近在一篇关于他的简介中写道：“迄今为止，他在该网站上评论了 3,760 本书，数量惊人。
His goal is to read a book a day, but he averages about 260 a year.”
他的目标是每天读一本书，但他平均每年读 260 本书。”
Of course, these numbers are now badly out of date.
当然，这些数字现在已经严重过时了。
Michael’s specialty is fiction, in particular world literature and fiction in translation.
迈克尔的专长是小说，尤其是世界文学和翻译小说。
So we’re here today to talk about books and fiction with Michael Orthofer.
所以我们今天在这里与迈克尔·奥索弗谈论书籍和小说。
Hello, Michael.
你好，迈克尔。
Thank you for coming.
谢谢您的光临。
Hi, Tyler.
嗨，泰勒。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
On why we should read fiction
论为什么我们应该读小说
Watch Tyler and Michael discuss why fiction matters
观看泰勒和迈克尔讨论为什么小说很重要
Let me start first with a question that’s a little bit expansive.
首先让我从一个有点宽泛的问题开始。
Now, if we think about fiction, for all the wonderful novels we read, it turns out to be the case the events in those novels didn’t actually happen, right?
现在，如果我们考虑一下小说，对于我们读过的所有精彩小说，事实证明这些小说中的事件实际上并没有发生，对吗？
Even especially vivid works like Lord of the Rings — those are not real events.
即使是像《指环王》这样特别生动的作品——那些也不是真实的事件。
If we’re reading for some reason, to learn things or be moved emotionally, why is it that things that didn’t happen have so much power for you or other readers, relative to things that did happen?
如果我们出于某种原因而阅读，为了学习东西或受到情感上的感动，为什么相对于已经发生的事情，没有发生的事情对你或其他读者有如此大的力量？
Why is fiction so special?
为什么小说如此特别？
Well, I think being not tied down to the actual events, allowing the imagination to roam, really, writers are able to do amazing things.
嗯，我认为不拘泥于实际事件，让想象力漫游，作家真的能够做出令人惊奇的事情。
And I think that’s what we get out of it.
我认为这就是我们从中得到的。
That nonfiction, the description of what has actually happened — first of all, it’s also very difficult to capture just precisely what has happened.
那种非虚构作品，对实际发生的事情的描述 ——首先，也很难准确地捕捉到已经发生的事情。
And often fiction allows you to go beyond that, to imagine the reasons behind it, which you might not be able to if you were doing just purely following the facts, so to speak.
通常，小说可以让你超越这一点，想象其背后的原因，可以这么说，如果你只是纯粹遵循事实，你可能无法做到这一点。
But say we think of it in marginal terms.
但假设我们从边际角度考虑它。
You know, I’m an economist, so if I say, “Well, reading Hamlet, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, Jane Austen” — of course that was essential for one’s own education, to speak to other people.
你知道，我是一名经济学家，所以如果我说，“好吧，读哈姆雷特、莎士比亚、陀思妥耶夫斯基、简·奥斯丁”——当然，这对于一个人自己的教育、与他人交谈是至关重要的。
The core — I don’t know if you’d quite call them ideas — but inspirations in those works move people’s lives.
核心 ——我不知道你是否愿意称之为想法 ——但这些作品中的灵感改变了人们的生活。
But at the margin, given how much you read — and you know, I read a fair amount of fiction, too — how much value is there really for that marginal work of fiction, given the regularity of patterns of stories that we see?
但在边际上，考虑到你读了多少书——你知道，我也读了相当多的小说——考虑到我们所看到的故事模式的规律性，那些边际小说作品到底有多少价值？
What is it you get out of the marginal work of fiction?
你从小说的边缘作品中得到了什么？
Well, it varies.
嗯，情况各不相同。
I mean, I have to admit that a great deal that I read I don’t get that much out of.
我的意思是，我必须承认，我读了很多书，但我并没有从中得到多少收获。
And you really — I think one of the reasons I do read as much as I do is because it really takes that whole mass to really find all the different things you’re looking for in it.
你真的 —— 我认为我读得那么多的原因之一是因为它确实需要大量的内容才能真正找到你在其中寻找的所有不同的东西。
But I definitely think it really expands my horizons in a way that other things can’t.
但我绝对认为它确实以其他事情无法做到的方式扩展了我的视野。
Travel, talking to people, meeting people, reading the newspaper, following current events — those things obviously also help you understand the world better, but I think fiction adds a totally different dimension to it.
旅行、与人交谈、与人会面、阅读报纸、关注时事——这些事情显然也可以帮助你更好地了解世界，但我认为小说为其添加了一个完全不同的维度。
And truly great fiction really can take you much farther than other things can, I think.
我认为，真正伟大的小说确实可以带你比其他事情走得更远。
There’s a book I read a review of — I’m sure you’ve heard of it, maybe read it — Marlon James, A Brief History of Seven Killings.
我读过一本书的评论 —— 我相信你听说过，也许读过它 —— 马龙·詹姆斯，《七杀简史》。
Very positive reviews, right?
非常积极的评价，对吧？
It’s 704 pages, and they’re fairly dense pages.
共有 704 页，而且页面相当密集。
I thought of reading the book, and then I sat down and I said to myself, “With the time it would take me to read this book, I could fly to Jamaica and spend an additional three days.” I’ve only been to Jamaica once.
我想读这本书，然后我坐下来，我对自己说：“有了读这本书的时间，我可以飞往牙买加，再呆三天。”我只去过牙买加一次。
And therefore, it didn’t make sense for me to read the book.
因此，我读这本书没有意义。
How do you feel about that reasoning?
你对这个推理有何感想？
Well, I’m full of admiration if you think you could capture — you know, if spending three days in Jamaica would be the equivalent.
好吧，如果你认为你能捕捉到 ——你知道，如果在牙买加呆三天也能达到同样的效果，我会非常钦佩。
I don’t think it’s equivalent.
我不认为这是等价的。
I think it really is a separate experience.
我认为这确实是一次单独的经历。
I think also many people don’t have the possibility of just traveling, and reading a book is much simpler.
我想也有很多人没有能力去旅行，而读书要简单得多。
The access is always there.
访问权限始终存在。
So you really can pick whatever strikes your mood, which — you know, if you commit to three days in Jamaica, you’re stuck in Jamaica for three days, and maybe it turns out that isn’t really what you wanted.
所以你真的可以选择任何适合你心情的东西，这 - 你知道，如果你承诺在牙买加呆三天，你就会在牙买加被困三天，也许事实证明这并不是你真正想要的。
But I think the Marlon James adventure, his way of seeing it — one of the things we have to remember, when someone is writing a book, a work of fiction, there’s usually years of work in that.
但我认为马龙·詹姆斯的冒险经历，以及他看待这一事件的方式——我们必须记住的一件事是，当有人写一本书、一部小说时，通常需要花费数年的时间。
And I think that is reflected in the final product.
我认为这反映在最终产品中。
The final product might seem like a compact 700-page book — that’s already a very long one — but there is so much that is being worked through in that.
最终的产品可能看起来像一本紧凑的 700 页书 ——这已经是一本很长的书了—— 但其中还有很多工作要做。
And in good fiction, in great fiction, the work itself reflects that.
在优秀的小说中，在伟大的小说中，作品本身就反映了这一点。
If we take American citizens, who are not necessarily the people who read you, but at the margin, we could give them more nonfiction, we could give them more travel, we could give them more fiction, or we could actually give them more of some really good TV, which of those things are we rooting for them to do more of, at the margin?
如果我们以美国公民为例，他们不一定是读你文章的人，但在边际上，我们可以给他们更多的非小说类书籍，我们可以给他们更多的旅行，我们可以给他们更多的小说，或者我们实际上可以给他们更多一些真正好的电视节目，我们支持他们在边际上做更多的事情中的哪一个？
At the margin, I would think travel.
在边缘，我会想到旅行。
I think really the experience of the foreign place would be the most benefit, because I think most people really don’t get that, don’t have that opportunity.
我认为在异国他乡的经历确实是最有益的，因为我认为大多数人真的不明白，没有这样的机会。
I don’t think they need more TV.
我认为他们不需要更多的电视。
I think TV is pretty well covered in this country .
我认为这个国家的电视报道相当不错。
Everyone gets their fill or the proper — or probably more than the proper — dose.
每个人都得到了满足或适当的剂量，或者可能超过适当的剂量。
But I think fiction is up there.
但我认为小说就在那里。
I think fiction is an important part of it as well.
我认为小说也是其中重要的一部分。
And it’s such an easy part to get to, as well, so I think people should take advantage of that.
而且这也是一个很容易到达的部分，所以我认为人们应该利用这一点。
In that sense the marginal cost is relatively low, since you can just go to your local library, to the local bookstore, and you have such a wide selection.
从这个意义上说，边际成本相对较低，因为你可以去当地的图书馆、当地的书店，并且有如此广泛的选择。
See, I’m actually inclined to give them the marginal dose of TV.
看，我实际上倾向于给他们少量的电视。
Really?
真的吗？
I think people absorb it and process it better.
我认为人们可以更好地吸收和处理它。
And the fact that they watch a lot of TV means they’re good at it.
事实上，他们看很多电视就意味着他们很擅长电视。
You’re very good at reading fiction.
你很擅长读小说。
You absorb it and process it very well.
你很好地吸收并处理它。
So TV shows really stick with people.
所以电视节目确实很受人们欢迎。
If, at the margin, you’re giving people quality TV, it might even be my choice over travel.
如果在边际上，你为人们提供高质量的电视，它甚至可能是我对旅行的选择。
A lot of people come away from travel alienated.
很多人因旅行而疏远。
They don’t always enjoy travel.
他们并不总是喜欢旅行。
They may vaguely feel it was good for them.
他们可能隐约觉得这对他们有好处。
They had to make too many decisions, and they argue with each other.
他们必须做出太多决定，并且互相争论。
All right.
好的。
I can see that.
我看得出来。
The general mix, like what people do versus what they really enjoy, I find interesting.
我觉得总体组合很有趣，比如人们所做的事情与他们真正喜欢的事情。
Now, on your — you have a blog which has two parts.
现在，在你的 — 上你有一个博客，它有两个部分。
One is called Literary Saloon.
其中一个叫文学沙龙。
The other is Complete Review.
另一个是完整审查。
But I think of them as one integrated entity.
但我认为它们是一个完整的实体。
You review books on a very regular basis, and most of all you review books which are being translated from other languages into English.
您定期审阅书籍，尤其是审阅从其他语言翻译成英文的书籍。
Is that a fair way to put it?
这样说公平吗？
Yes, foreign fiction dominates.
是的，外国小说占主导地位。
Yes.
是的。
On the value of foreign fiction
论外国小说的价值
Yes.
是的。
Why the appeal of foreign-language fiction to you?
为什么外语小说对你有吸引力？
What catches you there?
是什么吸引了你？
Well, in part it also came about — I started the site in 1999.
嗯，部分原因是 —— 我于 1999 年创建了这个网站。
It’s been around a long time.
它已经存在很长时间了。
And one of the reasons I started it was because I saw how many people were posting book reviews online.
我开始这样做的原因之一是因为我看到有多少人在网上发布书评。
And suddenly you had the possibility of getting book reviews not just from your local paper or from the national magazines but from anywhere in the world.
突然间，你不仅可以从当地报纸或全国性杂志上获得书评，还可以从世界任何地方获得书评。
And one of the things that struck me — and this also partly has to do with the timing in American publishing and American book reviewing — is that there was very little coverage of especially translated fiction, which would be much more popular, say, in the 1970s.
让我印象深刻的事情之一——这也部分与美国出版和美国书评的时机有关——是对特别翻译的小说的报道很少，而这些小说在 20 世纪 70 年代会更受欢迎。
Suddenly we had reached a real low point, and so I made a conscious effort also to move in that direction.
突然之间，我们到达了一个真正的低点，所以我也有意识地努力朝这个方向前进。
But aside from that, I also find foreign fiction more interesting in a way.
但除此之外，我还发现外国小说在某种程度上更有趣。
It’s not that I find foreign fiction more interesting than American or British fiction.
这并不是说我觉得外国小说比美国或英国小说更有趣。
But just — I think it’s better to read from everywhere, from all over the place, rather than one specific locale.
但只是 —— 我认为从任何地方、任何地方阅读比从一个特定的地点阅读要好。
I also find foreign fiction more interesting in a way.
我还发现外国小说在某种程度上更有趣。
It’s not that I find foreign fiction more interesting than American or British fiction.
这并不是说我觉得外国小说比美国或英国小说更有趣。
But just — I think it’s better to read from everywhere, from all over the place, rather than one specific locale.
但只是 —— 我认为从任何地方、任何地方阅读比从一个特定的地点阅读要好。
What’s your theory of America?
你的美国理论是什么？
Where have we gone wrong?
我们哪里出了错？
You say correctly there was more interest in foreign fiction in the 1970s, right?
你说得对，20 世纪 70 年代人们对外国小说更感兴趣，对吧？
We’ve moved away from that.
我们已经摆脱了这一点。
Why has that happened?
为什么会发生这种事？
What’s the institutional failure behind that?
这背后的制度性失败是什么？
You could say lack of someone like you may be part of it, but you’re here now.
你可以说缺少像你这样的人可能是其中的一部分，但你现在在这里。
It’s still the case.
现在仍然如此。
A novel comes out in American English, and they try to hide the fact that it was translated, quite often.
一本小说以美式英语出版，他们经常试图掩盖它被翻译的事实。
I’m sure you’ve seen this, or maybe not seen it.
我相信你已经看到过这个，或者也许没有看到过。
Right.
正确的。
Well, I think, actually, things have improved a lot in the time I’ve been running the site.
嗯，我认为，实际上，在我运行该网站的这段时间里，情况已经有了很大的改善。
I think a major reason was that there was a generational shift from, especially, the publishing world.
我认为一个主要原因是，尤其是出版界的代际转变。
The publishers would come across from Europe around World War II, who obviously had brought a lot of international fiction, who were aware of what was being written elsewhere in the world — mainly in Europe, unfortunately, so relatively localized as well, but still.
出版商来自二战期间的欧洲，他们显然带来了很多国际小说，他们知道世界其他地方正在写什么——不幸的是，主要是在欧洲，因此也相对本地化，但仍然如此。
But you also had it with the interest in Japanese fiction, for example.
但例如，你也对日本小说感兴趣。
There was that generation, which is also very much due to the sudden interest in Japan from World War II — the people who learned Japanese and then began translating the work.
还有那一代人，很大程度上也是由于二战后突然对日本产生了兴趣——学习日语然后开始翻译作品的人。
And I think there was a generational shift which played itself out most fully in the 1990s.
我认为代际转变在 20 世纪 90 年代发挥得最为充分。
But yeah, I’m not sure why exactly it went as far down as it did.
但是，是的，我不确定为什么它会跌得这么厉害。
The wonderful thing is that translation has really been revived in the past couple of years.
令人惊奇的是，翻译在过去几年里确实得到了复兴。
I think there really has been a greater interest in — especially, with smaller publishers who are really interested in publishing translations.
我认为人们确实对“尤其是那些真正对出版翻译感兴趣的小型出版商”产生了更大的兴趣。
But it is a kind of paradox of globalization, right?
但这是全球化的一种悖论，对吗？
After the ’70s in particular, immigration to the United States goes up quite rapidly.
特别是20世纪70年代以后，美国的移民数量增长得相当快。
There’s a lot more trade, especially with Asia.
贸易量很大，尤其是与亚洲的贸易量。
Many more Americans get passports.
更多美国人获得护照。
They travel abroad.
他们出国旅行。
And yet, at the same time, we’re less interested in some aspects of foreign literature.
然而，与此同时，我们对外国文学的某些方面不太感兴趣。
Maybe there’s something more general to this.
也许这有更普遍的东西。
If you think of America as, in some ways, an open country, actually we’re much less willing to watch foreign films than are people from most other countries.
如果你认为美国在某种程度上是一个开放的国家，那么实际上我们比大多数其他国家的人更不愿意观看外国电影。
Then you go to Canada, for all of its talk of cultural protectionism — they do a small amount of it — or Paris, arguably they’re, in many ways, more open to foreign cultures than America.
然后你去加拿大，尽管他们都在谈论文化保护主义——“他们做了一小部分”——或者巴黎，可以说，他们在很多方面比美国对外国文化更加开放。
What’s the general paradoxical lesson about globalization we can pull out of all of this?
我们可以从这一切中得出什么关于全球化的普遍悖论教训？
It might be a cultural thing that America has, in many ways, always been sort of integrating.
这可能是一种文化，美国在很多方面一直在整合。
It has integrated the immigrants that have come in, and it has valued that they become American, that they adopt American values.
它融合了进来的移民，并重视他们成为美国人，接受美国价值观。
And part of that has been leaving behind, to a certain extent, the culture.
其中一部分是在某种程度上抛弃了文化。
I think there’s a great amount of literature of sort of the first-, second-, third-generation Americans and — but it’s almost all in English.
我认为有大量关于第一代、第二代、第三代美国人的文学作品，但几乎都是英文的。
And there’s very little of returning to the languages that these immigrants brought with them.
而且很少有人能够回归这些移民带来的语言。
On the other hand, it’s fascinating how many foreign authors live, especially in university settings, in the United States.
另一方面，令人着迷的是有多少外国作家生活在美国，尤其是在大学环境中。
But they live in these sort of isolated pockets.
但他们生活在这些孤立的地方。
They’re not part of the broader American literary culture, which I find a bizarre paradox.
它们不属于更广泛的美国文学文化的一部分，我发现这是一个奇怪的悖论。
I don’t quite understand why that happens.
我不太明白为什么会发生这种情况。
Let me tell you an argument about New York City which I occasionally hear.
让我告诉你一个我偶尔听到的关于纽约市的争论。
And I know it’s not true about you, but whether you think it’s true at all.
我知道这对你来说不是真的，但无论你是否认为这是真的。
And it gets at these paradoxes of globalization.
它解决了全球化的这些悖论。
That in some ways New York City, or maybe just Manhattan, is fairly provincial because people think — and they’re led to believe — that the whole world comes here.
从某些方面来说，纽约市，或者也许只是曼哈顿，是相当狭隘的，因为人们认为“并且他们被引导相信”整个世界都来到这里。
In some ways that’s true, both tourism and migration, but you don’t actually get the whole world here at all.
从某些方面来说，无论是旅游还是移民，这都是事实，但你实际上并不能在这里看到整个世界。
You get a highly processed, filtered version of a bit of it from each particular region.
您可以从每个特定区域获得经过高度处理和过滤的版本。
Then people here, in a way, become more inward looking.
然后这里的人们在某种程度上变得更加内向。
They don’t go as many other places.
他们不会去很多其他地方。
They feel everything is right here.
他们觉得一切都在这里。
They get into their routines.
他们进入自己的日常生活。
And is it possible that parts of Manhattan are evolving into this highly provincial place because of these cultural paradoxes?
由于这些文化悖论，曼哈顿的部分地区是否有可能演变成这个高度地方化的地方？
I think so, although New York still remains such a dynamic place because you also have great shifts in what populations come here and how that affects the city, I think.
我认为是的，尽管纽约仍然是一个充满活力的地方，因为我认为来到这里的人口以及这对城市的影响也发生了巨大的变化。
And so there is that dynamism, the changing neighborhoods.
所以就有了这种活力，不断变化的社区。
I still think, in that sense, it is a very vibrant city.
我仍然认为，从这个意义上说，这是一个非常有活力的城市。
And it’s fairly unprovincial for a metropolitan city, compared to even some European — I mean, I’m from Austria, and Vienna is a cosmopolitan city, but in the end of things, it is — .
对于一个大都市来说，甚至与一些欧洲国家相比，这也算不上省事——我的意思是，我来自奥地利，维也纳是一个国际化城市，但归根结底，它是——。
Still Vienna.
还是维也纳。
It is, yeah.
是的，是的。
On hacking books
关于黑客书籍
My friend Ben Casnocha — he’s always talking to me about this idea of life hacks, like advice where you can live your life or learn things more efficiently.
我的朋友本·卡斯诺查（Ben Casnocha）——他总是和我谈论生活窍门的想法，比如如何更有效地生活或学习的建议。
Let’s say I was approaching foreign-language literature in translation as an economist, and the following life hack occurred to me.
假设我以经济学家的身份研究外语文学翻译，我遇到了以下生活小窍门。
I’m going to lay it out, and you tell me why it’s wrong.
我要把它列出来，你告诉我为什么它是错的。
There’s always more to read, always more wonderful things to read in all of the major languages.
总是有更多的东西要读，总是有更多精彩的东西要以所有主要语言阅读。
But if you can read a language fluently, usually you’ll enjoy the fiction or poetry in that language much more.
但如果你能流利地阅读一种语言，通常你会更喜欢那种语言的小说或诗歌。
You’re not going to run out of things to read in the languages you can read in.
您不会用完您可以阅读的语言的内容。
Therefore, in translated literature, you should read the very most famous works.
因此，翻译文学应该读最著名的作品。
If you don’t read Russian, yes, read Brothers Karamazov and War and Peace and a few things, and then stop.
如果你不读俄语，是的，读一下卡拉马佐夫兄弟和战争与和平之类的东西，然后就停下来。
And if you read, say, English, Spanish, and French, then just read in those languages.
如果你读英语、西班牙语和法语，那么就用这些语言阅读。
Translated literature — at the margin, put it aside; never look at it again.
翻译文献 —— 在页边，放在一边；永远不要再看它。
That’s not what you do, but what’s wrong with that argument?
那不是你所做的，但是这个论点有什么问题呢？
I think you’re really missing so much, because the problem is finding what is of value, what is important.
我认为你真的错过了很多，因为问题是找到什么是有价值的、什么是重要的。
And I mean, we have these established books like War and Peace or Crime and Punishment, but Russian literature goes so much deeper, for example, to take just an example of a big language.
我的意思是，我们有《战争与和平》或《犯罪与惩罚》等既定书籍，但俄罗斯文学更深入，例如，仅举一个大语言的例子。
It also changes with time so rapidly.
它也随着时间的推移而变化得如此之快。
I think that in every 10‑year period, you could select a new set of a dozen recent — relatively recent, of the past quarter-century from that culture — works which would give you a completely different view and provide you with a completely different experience.
我认为，在每十年的时间里，你可以从那个文化中选择一套新的十几部最近的——相对较新的、过去四分之一世纪的作品，这会给你一个完全不同的观点，并为你提供完全不同的体验。
And the bigger problem I see, of course, is that you’re missing out on so much literature from elsewhere, that there really is — for a lot of cultures and languages, there isn’t that standout that you know.
当然，我看到的更大的问题是，你错过了很多来自其他地方的文献，确实存在——对于很多文化和语言来说，并没有你所知道的那么出色。
You know, Russia, Tolstoy, got it.
你知道，俄罗斯，托尔斯泰，明白了。
But if you want to read something from the Philippines, you’re unlikely to be able to find that one author.
但如果你想读菲律宾的一些东西，你不太可能找到那位作者。
There are so many other languages and cultures.
还有许多其他语言和文化。
There is so much being written now which it really is worthwhile keeping up with.
现在已经写了很多东西，确实值得跟上。
Would you agree, then, that it’s a good life hack, say, for poetry?
那么，你是否同意这是一个很好的生活窍门，比如诗歌？
If I try to read poetry originally written in Russian — I don’t speak Russian.
如果我尝试阅读最初用俄语写的诗歌 —— 我不会说俄语。
I understand some of it.
我明白了一些。
I know enough to get that I’m not getting it when I read it in English.
我知道的足够多，但当我读英文时却无法理解。
It just doesn’t come through, no matter how great the poet, and I don’t enjoy it that much.
无论诗人多么伟大，它就是无法表达出来，而且我不太喜欢它。
So in this case I followed the life hack.
所以在这种情况下，我遵循了生活窍门。
I just don’t read poetry in Russian, and I feel that’s efficient.
我只是不读俄语诗歌，我觉得这样很有效率。
Do you agree with that when it comes to poetry?
当谈到诗歌时，你同意这一点吗？
But I do read poetry in the languages I read well.
但我确实读过我擅长的语言的诗歌。
Poetry is a bit more difficult because, first of all, there seems a lot more with less poetry that stands out.
诗歌有点困难，因为，首先，诗歌似乎多而少。
It’s very difficult, often, to recognize the great poetry of the day in the time being, especially with modern poetry.
通常，当下要认识到当今伟大的诗歌是非常困难的，尤其是现代诗歌。
I find it very difficult to get a sense of what I really should be focusing on.
我发现很难了解自己真正应该关注的是什么。
So I mean, I guess it is a useful life hack because, really, there is only so much we can read.
所以我的意思是，我想这是一个有用的生活窍门，因为实际上我们能读到的东西就这么多。
I might very well act similarly with poetry, because I don’t spend that much time reading poetry, but with fiction I wouldn’t accept it.
我可能会对诗歌采取类似的做法，因为我不会花那么多时间读诗歌，但对于小说我不会接受。
No.
不。
Here’s another life hack which I totally reject, but it may just be because I’m an addict of sorts.
这是我完全拒绝的另一个生活窍门，但这可能只是因为我有点上瘾。
You tell me why, for you, it’s wrong.
你告诉我为什么，对你来说，这是错误的。
A lot of people say to me, “Well, I love fiction, but I’m never going to read new works because I can’t tell what’s really good.
很多人对我说：“好吧，我喜欢小说，但我永远不会读新作品，因为我不知道什么是真正好的。
I’ll just wait 20 years and then look back on what was truly excellent from 20 years ago and read that 20 years later.
我会等20年，然后回顾20年前真正优秀的作品，并在20年后阅读。
In the meantime, now I’ll just read classics or things in other areas which are verified as being truly excellent.” Does that make sense?
同时，我现在就看经典或者其他领域被证实确实优秀的东西。”这有道理吗？
I worry very much about people who rely on what gets that stamp of approval.
我非常担心那些依赖获得认可的东西的人。
Just because it has a cover review in the New York Times Book Review does not mean that that book really is, if we look at it from five or ten years down the road — that that book will still be a significant work.
仅仅因为它在《纽约时报书评》上有封面评论，并不意味着这本书真的是，如果我们从五年或十年后的角度来看，那本书仍然是一本重要的作品。
I find so much which is highly praised at any one point long‑term won’t be.
我发现有很多东西在任何时候都受到高度赞扬，但从长远来看却不会。
Again, however — .
然而，再次 —— 。
I worry very much about people who rely on what gets that stamp of approval.
我非常担心那些依赖获得认可的东西的人。
Just because it has a cover review in the New York Times Book Review does not mean that that book really is, if we look at it from five or ten years down the road — that that book will still be a significant work.
仅仅因为它在《纽约时报书评》上有封面评论，并不意味着这本书真的是，如果我们从五年或十年后的角度来看，那本书仍然是一本重要的作品。
Then wait longer.
然后再等更长的时间。
Wait 30 years.
等30年。
Much that we look back on, is — we’ve lost in the margins as well because it’s really hard to keep track of all the great books.
回顾过去，我们也迷失了方向，因为要追踪所有伟大的书籍确实很困难。
We saw at the Strand earlier today Stoner, John Williams.
今天早些时候我们在斯特兰德见到了约翰·威廉斯·斯通纳。
This is a book that disappeared from view for a long time.
这是一本已经从人们的视野中消失了很长时间的书。
It was always recognized, sort of.
某种程度上，它总是被认可的。
People would say, “This is a great book,” but it had really fallen out of view.
人们会说，“这是一本很棒的书”，但它确实已经淡出了人们的视野。
Helen DeWitt’s The Last Samurai was just republished.
海伦·德威特的《最后的武士》刚刚重新出版。
I just ordered it on Amazon.
我刚刚在亚马逊上订购了它。
I’m excited to get my copy.
我很高兴收到我的副本。
I didn’t know about it.
我不知道。
This was sort of a — not legendary text, but it had gotten a great deal of attention when it first came out.
这有点像——不是传说中的文本，但它刚问世时就引起了很大的关注。
Then, through an odd series of coincidences, it just sort of fell from view.
然后，通过一系列奇怪的巧合，它就从人们的视野中消失了。
There are many, many, many more books which are in this gray zone where, if you really dig, if you really look, you can still pluck them out.
还有很多很多很多书都处于这个灰色地带，如果你真的挖掘，如果你真的看，你仍然可以把它们拔出来。
But because there’s so much new work being published, it’s very difficult for it to rise out of that noise.
但由于有如此多的新作品出版，它很难摆脱这种噪音。
Say I’m an American, but I’m someone who doesn’t have as much time to read as you do or I do.
假设我是美国人，但我不像你或我那样有那么多时间读书。
I’m only going to take away one book tip from this podcast or video.
我只会从这个播客或视频中摘取一篇阅读建议。
I’m going to walk into a Barnes and Noble or go to Amazon, and I want to buy a new book.
我要去巴诺书店或者亚马逊，我想买一本新书。
At the margin, what’s the piece of information I should have that will help me make a better decision other than just saying, “Well, go to Literary Saloon and see what I tell you to do.” More generally, I forgot my iPad, I’m in Strand or Barnes and Noble.
在边缘，我应该掌握哪些信息可以帮助我做出更好的决定，而不仅仅是说“好吧，去文学沙龙看看我告诉你做什么。”更一般地说，我忘了带 iPad，我在 Strand 或 Barnes and Noble。
Well, I think, depending on the bookstore — but it works, probably, even for many of the Barnes and Noble ones — I really think you should have some faith in the staff that they will be able to best guide you.
嗯，我认为，这取决于书店 ——但它可能也有效，即使对于许多巴恩斯和诺布尔书店来说也是如此——我真的认为你应该对员工有一定的信心，他们将能够最好地指导你。
I’m certain at Strand, for example, which — the booksellers there are book lovers — if you give them a bit of information about what would be suitable for you, that they will be able to guide you.
例如，我确信在斯特兰德，那里的书商都是书籍爱好者，如果你向他们提供一些关于什么适合你的信息，他们将能够指导你。
I like to think that the Complete Review is meant to guide readers to their books, right?
我喜欢认为完整评论是为了引导读者阅读他们的书，对吧？
Of course.
当然。
I think on the more localized level in the bookstore, you hopefully get that as well.
我认为在书店更本地化的层面上，你也希望能得到这一点。
I think I’ve bought more than a hundred books because of you, so I thank you for that.
我想因为你我已经买了一百多本书了，所以我很感谢你。
Let’s say now I’m someone who more or less reads for a living.
假设现在我是一个或多或少以读书为生的人。
Maybe I write books, or I’m a book reviewer, or I’m a certain kind of journalist, or I work in publishing.
也许我写书，或者我是一名书评家，或者我是某种记者，或者我在出版业工作。
You can give me advice at the margin — how to make a better book choice, something to buy and read.
你可以在边际上给我建议 —— 如何做出更好的书籍选择，购买和阅读的东西。
For that kind of person, it’s harder to give advice, right?
对于这种人来说，提建议是比较困难的吧？
Very much so.
非常如此。
What would your advice be?
你的建议是什么？
I don’t know that I would — I don’t really have a system for picking books myself.
我不知道我会 —— 我自己并没有真正的选书系统。
I’m very much — .
我非常 —— 。
That can’t be true.
这不可能是真的。
You may not have articulated your system.
您可能还没有阐明您的系统。
But I saw you in the Strand.
但我在河岸街见过你。
You have rules and principles.
你有规则和原则。
You turn the corner at a certain time.
你在某个时间拐过弯。
You know what sections to go to.
你知道该去哪些部分。
Right.
正确的。
It’s a very personal selection process, I think.
我认为这是一个非常个人化的选择过程。
I think it’s whatever information works for you.
我认为这就是对你有用的任何信息。
One source of information, for example, is seeing what imprint has published — a certain publisher.
例如，信息来源之一是查看出版了什么出版社——某个出版商。
If New Directions or New York Review Books has brought out a volume, you know possibly what kind of book this might be.
如果《新方向》或《纽约书评》出版了一本书，你可能知道这会是什么类型的书。
That helps narrow it down.
这有助于缩小范围。
Used-book stores — you have to be familiar with the older imprints, for example, which just takes a lot of practice, I guess.
二手书店 ——例如，你必须熟悉旧的印记，我想这需要大量的练习。
That, for example, is one of the sources of information.
例如，这是信息来源之一。
It’s very difficult, I think, to narrow it down.
我认为，缩小范围是非常困难的。
I think that’s one of the wonderful things of going in a bookstore and of being willing to take a chance and pick up something that hasn’t been shoved down your throat, hasn’t been recommended in 15 different publications, because the offerings out there are so rich that you can really find many things just at the extremes.
我认为这是走进书店的美妙事情之一，愿意冒险并挑选一些没有被强行塞入你喉咙的东西，也没有在 15 种不同的出版物中推荐的东西，因为那里的产品非常丰富，你真的可以找到很多极端的东西。
I think that’s one of the wonderful things of going in a bookstore and of being willing to take a chance and pick up something that hasn’t been shoved down your throat, hasn’t been recommended in 15 different publications, because the offerings out there are so rich that you can really find many things just at the extremes.
我认为这是走进书店的美妙事情之一，愿意冒险并挑选一些没有被强行塞入你喉咙的东西，也没有在 15 种不同的出版物中推荐的东西，因为那里的产品非常丰富，你真的可以找到很多极端的东西。
I once did an experiment.
我曾经做过一个实验。
I went into a bookstore, and I said, “I’m just going to pick out the book whose cover I like the best and put aside whatever other impressions I might have of that book and really see this through,” just to see how good of a predictor that would be.
我走进一家书店，我说，“我只是要挑选一本我最喜欢封面的书，抛开我对这本书可能有的其他印象，真正看透这一点，”只是为了看看这个预测器有多好。
I ended up liking the cover of a Kate Christensen novel.
我最终喜欢上了凯特·克里斯滕森的一本小说的封面。
I then liked the novel, and I’ve liked some of her subsequent writing.
然后我就喜欢上了这本小说，也喜欢她后来的一些作品。
When it comes to covers, covers are there, in a way, to trick us, but there’s also a kind of matching going on.
当谈到封面时，封面在某种程度上是为了欺骗我们，但也有一种匹配的过程。
It signals, maybe, how intellectual the book is or what kind of person should buy or read that book.
它也许表明这本书的智慧程度或者什么样的人应该购买或阅读这本书。
You see a cover.
你看到一个封面。
How do you decipher or decode the information there?
您如何破译或解码那里的信息？
If you like the cover, does it sway you?
如果你喜欢这个封面，它会打动你吗？
It can sway me, but it rarely does.
它可以影响我，但很少有。
I’m not a big cover person.
我不是一个大掩护者。
I’m really a text person, not an image person.
我确实是一个文字人，而不是图像人。
And so I try to see beyond the cover, but the aesthetics obviously do play somewhat of a role.
因此，我试图透过封面看到更多的东西，但美学显然确实发挥了一定的作用。
But it’s a very — I think a cover can attract my attention but won’t be decisive.
但这是一个非常 —— 我认为封面可以吸引我的注意力，但不会起决定性作用。
I don’t think anything about a cover could convince me that this is a book I must have.
我不认为任何封面都能让我相信这是一本我必须拥有的书。
I think I will leaf beyond that, but it can get me to pick up the book.
我想我会超越这一点，但它可以让我拿起这本书。
Say a parent comes to you.
假设有一位家长来找你。
The parent says, “I have a 12‑year‑old, smart child, shows some interest in now wanting to read,” what advice do you give that parent for hooking the child on reading?
家长说：“我有一个 12 岁的孩子，很聪明，现在对阅读表现出了一些兴趣。”对于如何让孩子爱上阅读，您给家长什么建议？
Since you yourself — your whole life, you’ve had this extreme, intense love of reading — maybe you were born with it — but how do people get hooked on reading?
自从你自己 ——你的一生，就对阅读产生了这种极端而强烈的热爱 ——“也许你与生俱来”——但是人们是如何迷上阅读的呢？
What do you tell that parent?
你对那位家长说什么？
I think you want to let them loose in a book environment, in the library, in the bookstore.
我认为你想让他们在图书环境、图书馆、书店中放松。
And you want to give them the freedom to explore for themselves, because I think reading is very much a personal thing, especially in childhood and especially when parents are often tempted to — “Well, is this a book that’s good for the kid?”
你想给他们自己探索的自由，因为我认为阅读在很大程度上是一件个人的事情，尤其是在童年时期，尤其是当父母经常被诱惑“嗯，这本书对孩子有好处吗？”
I think you want to avoid that, because the child has a completely different perspective and really has to want to read the book.
我认为你想避免这种情况，因为孩子有完全不同的观点，并且确实想要读这本书。
I think by letting them make their own choices, their own selections, finding their own way, and not really pressuring them.
我认为让他们做出自己的选择，自己的选择，找到自己的方式，而不是给他们施加压力。
I don’t think you want to say, “Reading is good for you.
我认为你不想说：“阅读对你有好处。
You have to read whatever it is.” Just make it easy for them to read whatever they want to read.
不管是什么，你都必须读。”只要让他们轻松阅读他们想读的任何内容即可。
You know what I did a few times with Yana?
你知道我和亚娜几次做了什么吗？
I’d put a book on the table.
我会把一本书放在桌子上。
I’d point at it.
我会指出它。
I’d say, “You’re not ready for this yet.” Then I’d just walk away.
我会说：“你还没有准备好。”然后我就走开。
That’s usually a good trick.
这通常是一个好技巧。
That was fairly effective.
这相当有效。
I can imagine, yeah.
我可以想象，是的。
On translations, great books, and the merits of being a completist
论翻译、伟大书籍以及成为完美主义者的优点
Are there books which are better translated into languages other than the languages they were written in — novels?
有没有比小说所用语言更适合翻译成其他语言的书籍？
I think there are, probably many which are, let’s say, B novels.
我认为可能有很多是 B 级小说。
Pulp novels, for example, can often be, especially stylistically, improved in translation.
例如，低俗小说通常可以在翻译中得到改进，尤其是在风格上。
You often have so‑called literary authors translating crime authors, B-list crime authors, and they do a wonderful job of it.
经常有所谓的文学作家翻译犯罪小说作家、二线犯罪作家，他们做得非常出色。
There are also cases where I don’t think it’s better, but some of the most interesting — the translations that appeal most to me are those of experimental works which basically are not — you can’t translate them literally.
也有我觉得不太好的情况，但有一些最有趣的 —— 最吸引我的翻译是实验性的作品，基本上不是 —— 你不能照字面翻译。
The word‑for‑word don’t come close.
逐字逐句地讲并不接近。
The translator basically becomes a re-creator of the text and takes a new approach.
译者基本上成为文本的再创造者并采取新的方法。
Some of those are wonderful as well.
其中一些也很棒。
What’s the best book that you never finished?
你从未读完的最好的书是什么？
That I never finished?
我还没有完成吗？
I don’t know because I really finish almost everything.
我不知道，因为我几乎完成了所有事情。
It takes a lot for me to give up on a book.
我需要付出很大的努力才能放弃一本书。
See, I don’t finish most of my books.
看，我的大部分书都没有读完。
Maybe I finish 10 percent — I’m not sure — but a clear minority.
也许我完成了百分之十 —— 我不确定 —— 但显然是少数。
Why finish books that are not as good as the next book you could be reading in respective value terms?
为什么要读完那些在各自价值方面不如你正在阅读的下一本书的书呢？
Right, right.
对，对。
Yeah, but I can’t think of any.
是的，但我想不出任何。
There are probably some long books which I haven’t made my way entirely through — let’s say Richardson’s Clarissa, which is a huge book, which I’ve never sat down to read from beginning to end.
可能有一些很长的书我还没有完全读完——比如理查森的《克拉丽莎》，这是一本厚书，我从来没有坐下来从头到尾读过。
Perhaps something like that, but nothing really strikes me, because a good book — I want to finish that book.
也许是这样，但没有什么真正让我震惊，因为一本好书 —— 我想读完那本书。
It would have been a not-very-memorable book in any case.
无论如何，这都不会是一本令人难忘的书。
COWEN: Of the so‑called great books, what’s the one that disappointed you most?
COWEN：在所谓的伟大书籍中，最让你失望的是哪一本？
Of the so‑called great ones?
那些所谓的伟人？
Well, it’s difficult knowing what that canon is.
嗯，很难知道那个经典是什么。
Take like Harold Bloom’s list in the back of his book, the western canon of fiction, something like that, maybe a little broader.
就像哈罗德·布鲁姆（Harold Bloom）在他的书后面列出的那样，西方小说的经典之类的东西，也许更广泛一些。
Yeah, no, I have difficulty with especially the verse epics.
是的，不，我尤其对诗歌史诗有困难。
I’ve never finished the Aeneid, for example, or something like that.
例如，我从未完成过《埃涅阿斯纪》之类的作品。
I have difficulty getting into some of those.
我很难进入其中的一些。
I think, of the great authors, the one I have the most difficulty with is probably Dostoevsky.
我想，在伟大的作家中，我最难理解的可能是陀思妥耶夫斯基。
I’ve read most of those.
我读过其中的大部分。
I think The Prince is probably my favorite, or The Idiot, as it’s sometimes translated.
我想《王子》可能是我最喜欢的，或者《白痴》，因为它有时会被翻译。
I’m not a big fan of Dostoevsky.
我不是陀思妥耶夫斯基的忠实粉丝。
Tom G wrote this question in to me on Marginal Revolution: “Which are the first three books that come to mind in answer to the question, ‘What books made him feel really good after finishing them?’ Quickest answer desired.”
汤姆·G 在《边际革命》上给我写了这个问题：“在回答‘哪些书让他读完后感觉真的很好？’这个问题时，我最先想到的是哪三本书？需要最快的答案。”
Again, this is the kind of question I have great difficulty with, because I don’t know what made me feel happiest.
同样，这是我很难回答的问题，因为我不知道什么让我感到最快乐。
I don’t know that the — immediate satisfaction, I couldn’t even think of one off the top of my head.
我不知道那种‘——’立即的满足感，我什至想不出有什么满足感。
Now, my theory of you as a reviewer and reader is that you love highly complex books that are long and very puzzling to work out what’s going on.
现在，我对你作为评论家和读者的理论是，你喜欢高度复杂的书籍，这些书籍又长又令人费解，无法弄清楚正在发生的事情。
I do enjoy those very much, yes.
我确实非常喜欢这些，是的。
So I’m going to bring up two or three of those, and you can tell us what’s in them for you or why we should care.
因此，我将提出其中的两到三个，您可以告诉我们它们对您有什么好处，或者为什么我们应该关心。
Here’s volume one of a Chinese book — used to be known as Dream of the Red Chamber.
这是一本中国书的第一卷——《红楼梦》。
Now it’s more often called Story of the Stone.
现在它更常被称为“石头的故事”。
Penguin translation.
企鹅翻译。
You’re an advocate of this book.
你是这本书的倡导者。
It’s very long.
很长。
This is only one volume.
这只是一卷。
Of five, yes.
五个，是的。
What’s in here?
这里有什么？
Basically, it’s a family saga and basically a love story of the main character and the two women, girls when it starts out.
基本上，这是一个家庭传奇，基本上是主角和两个女人（女孩）的爱情故事。
It starts out when he was a young boy.
这要从他还是个小男孩的时候说起。
It’s basically a novel which has everything.
这基本上是一本包含一切的小说。
It’s comprehensive.
它很全面。
It’s such a sweeping book.
这是一本内容广泛的书。
It’s really one that you can get lost in over a long period of time.
这确实是一个你可能会迷失很长一段时间的地方。
It’s a book that is very easy to return to, because there is so much in it.
这是一本很容易翻阅的书，因为里面有很多东西。
Even though on the Wikipedia page, 40 main characters are listed, plus minor characters.
尽管在维基百科页面上，列出了 40 个主要角色，还有次要角色。
That’s going to be tough going, right, even with a good translation?
即使有很好的翻译，这也会很困难，对吧？
It depends.
这取决于。
I think it conveniently probably has the list of characters.
我认为它可能方便地包含字符列表。
It does, but even with a cheat sheet, 40 is hard.
确实如此，但即使有备忘单，40 也很难。
Right, the main characters.
对了，主角们。
There really are the central characters and the more incidental characters.
确实有中心人物和次要人物。
The story focuses on groups of characters at a time.
这个故事一次集中于一群人物。
There are not 40 people onstage all the time, so that makes it somewhat simpler.
舞台上始终没有40个人，所以这让事情变得简单一些。
It is initially, perhaps — if you haven’t read much Chinese fiction, the Chinese names alone can be confusing.
最初，也许是——如果你没读过多少中国小说，光是中文名字就可能会让人感到困惑。
I don’t think — that’s the least of the hurdles to the book, I think.
我不认为——我认为这是这本书的最小障碍。
It’s also very accessible.
它也非常方便。
It’s just a compelling story.
这只是一个引人入胜的故事。
It really describes these characters and their feelings very well — and a wonderful picture, also, of the China of the times, which is a totally different world.
它确实很好地描述了这些人物和他们的感受，同时也描绘了当时中国的一幅美妙的图画，这是一个完全不同的世界。
Which is the 18th century, yeah.
那是18世纪，是的。
An author you’re a big advocate of, Arno Schmidt, right?
您大力支持的一位作家，阿诺·施密特，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
You’ve written a book on him.
你写了一本关于他的书。
It’s the book here.
这是这里的书。
His masterwork is coming out in English, actually, translated for the first time this September.
事实上，他的杰作即将以英文出版，今年九月首次翻译。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Yes.
是的。
The German title is Zettels Traum.
德文标题是“Zettels Traum”。
What’s the English title?
英文标题是什么？
Bottom’s Dream.
底部的梦想。
Bottom’s Dream.
底部的梦想。
Most people have never heard of Arno Schmidt.
大多数人从未听说过阿诺·施密特。
Regrettably, no.
遗憾的是，没有。
We have a chance now to read his masterwork.
现在我们有机会阅读他的杰作。
Some of his others are in English already.
他的其他一些作品已经是英文了。
Tell us why we should care.
告诉我们为什么我们应该关心。
Well, Bottom’s Dream — I don’t know how many people will actually read that.
嗯，《巴顿的梦》——我不知道有多少人会真正读到它。
That is a very complicated piece of work.
这是一项非常复杂的工作。
Arno Schmidt is a fascinating — .
阿诺·施密特是一位迷人的 —— 。
You love it, right?
你喜欢它，对吧？
You’ve written a book on Schmidt.
你写了一本关于施密特的书。
I do, but again, it’s on Schmidt as a whole, and Schmidt has written in several different categories.
我确实这样做，但同样，这是关于施密特的整体，施密特已经写了几个不同的类别。
He’s also written short novels and stories which are much more accessible.
他还写过更容易理解的短篇小说和故事。
But you giggled when you read Bottom’s Dream, right?
但当你读到《巴顿的梦》时，你咯咯地笑了，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
You giggled a lot.
你咯咯地笑了很多。
The English edition, I think, is just under 1,500 pages.
我认为英文版只有不到 1,500 页。
A mere pittance compared to Dream of the Red Chamber, right?
和《红楼梦》比起来，只是九牛一毛吧？
It’s going to be about this big, and it’s written in three columns per page.
它大约有这么大，每页分三栏。
There’s the main story.
这就是主要故事。
Then you have the commentary and not quite the footnotes but the elaborations on the side.
然后你会看到评论，但不完全是脚注，而是侧面的阐述。
Talk us into the work now.
现在就让我们开始工作吧。
It covers a seven‑day span.
它涵盖了 7 天的时间跨度。
Basically it’s a story of translation.
基本上这是一个翻译的故事。
Some translators come to an expert on Poe and ask his advice about translating Poe.
一些译者找到爱伦·坡的专家，询问他关于翻译爱伦·坡的建议。
As the title Bottom’s Dream also suggests, there’s a Shakespearean aspect to it as well.
正如标题《底层的梦》所暗示的那样，它也有莎士比亚的一面。
And I don’t even know if it’s Schmidt’s greatest work.
我什至不知道这是否是施密特最伟大的作品。
In some ways, because it is beyond anything almost anyone else has ever tried to write, it is an immense accomplishment.
在某些方面，因为它超出了几乎任何人曾经尝试写过的任何东西，所以这是一项巨大的成就。
It’s not the first Schmidt work you want to read.
这不是您想读的第一本施密特作品。
What’s the first Schmidt work you want to read?
您想读的第一本施密特作品是什么？
If you eventually want to read Bottom’s Dream, then The School for Atheists is the one to read.
如果你最终想读《巴顿的梦》，那么《无神论者学校》就是你的最佳选择。
And that’s in English now?
现在是英文的吗？
That’s in English now.
现在是英文的。
Interestingly, the person who translated all these books is John E.
有趣的是，翻译所有这些书的人是约翰·E·
Woods, who is famous for his translations of Thomas Mann.
伍兹因翻译托马斯·曼的著作而闻名。
He did the definitive Magic Mountain and Buddenbrooks.
他制作了权威的《魔法山》和《布登布鲁克》。
He’s almost been translating Arno Schmidt for decades now, and Bottom’s Dream — .
几十年来，他几乎一直在翻译阿诺·施密特（Arno Schmidt）和《巴顿的梦》（Bottom’s Dream — ）。
Do you like the translations?
你喜欢这些翻译吗？
Yes.
是的。
And Schmidt, again, is one of these writers who you really — it’s difficult to translate him just literally.
施密特也是这些作家中的一位，你很难从字面上翻译他。
In the case of Bottom’s Dream and The School for Atheists, he called them his typoscript books because they were written on larger-than-normal pieces of paper and allowed not just writing line by line, as we’re used to, but playing with the text.
就《波顿的梦想》和《无神论者学校》而言，他称它们为印刷书，因为它们写在比普通纸更大的纸上，并且不仅可以像我们习惯的那样逐行书写，还可以玩转文本。
For example, one of his favorite things to do was with words where you can change the beginning of the word.
例如，他最喜欢做的事情之一就是修改单词，你可以改变单词的开头。
You have both school bus and schoolchild.
你既有校车又有学童。
He would have school as one word and then bus and child on top of each other, so you could add both meanings of the word.
他将 school 作为一个词，然后将“bus”和“child”放在一起，这样您就可以添加该词的两种含义。
He would take this to the nth degree.
他会把这件事提升到极致。
Bottom’s Dream and also The School for Atheists allow for incredible literary play.
《巴顿之梦》和《无神论者学校》提供了令人难以置信的文学表演。
Schmidt is also — I read a fair amount.
施密特也是 —— 我读了相当多的书。
I read probably more than most people.
我读的书可能比大多数人都多。
Probably.
大概。
ORTHOFER: Arno Schmidt is an order or two above me as a reader.
奥瑟弗：作为一名读者，阿诺·施密特比我高出一两个等级。
He wrote a lot, but basically he’s one of the great readers of all times.
他写了很多东西，但基本上他是有史以来最伟大的读者之一。
And one of the reasons I also appreciate him so much is because he’s directed me to so much more reading.
我非常欣赏他的原因之一是他引导我进行了更多的阅读。
And there are a couple of authors — .
还有几位作者 — 。
He’s like you?
他像你一样吗？
Perhaps.
也许。
Or you’re like him?
或者你也像他一样？
On some level, yes.
在某种程度上，是的。
Here’s your book out not too long ago, The Complete Review Guide to Contemporary World Fiction.
这是你不久前出版的书《当代世界小说完整评论指南》。
Another author you promote in this book and elsewhere, Luis Goytisolo.
您在本书和其他地方宣传的另一位作者是路易斯·戈伊蒂索洛 (Luis Goytisolo)。
Juan Goytisolo.
胡安·戈伊蒂索洛.
Luis is the brother.
路易斯是弟弟。
But both of them you like, right?
但他们两个你都喜欢，对吧？
Unfortunately, Luis — nothing of his has been translated yet, although his major work, the title of which escapes me — .
不幸的是，路易斯 ——他的任何作品都还没有被翻译，尽管他的主要作品（我记不清了其标题）—— 。
Antagonía.
安塔戈尼亚。
Antagonía is coming out from Dalkey Archive as well.
《Antagonía》也将从 Dalkey Archive 中推出。
Oh, I didn’t know this.
哦，我不知道这个。
It’s the same publishers who are publishing Bottom’s Dream.
出版《巴顿的梦想》的正是同一家出版商。
It strikes me as a book you would love.
我觉得这是一本你会喜欢的书。
It does, it does, but unfortunately I have not read that yet.
确实如此，但不幸的是我还没有读过。
The brother, Juan — why is he special?
弟弟胡安 ——为什么他很特别？
He writes in so many different registers.
他在很多不同的寄存器中写作。
He’s not satisfied with a simple — even when he’s successful with one way of storytelling, he tries out different things, new things.
他不满足于简单的——即使他在一种讲故事的方式上取得了成功，他也会尝试不同的东西，新的东西。
He tells stories in new ways.
He tells stories in new ways.
Also, he’s been a wonderful chronicler of Spain and especially the Spanish conflict with the Islamic world, which goes back to when part of Spain was Islamic.
此外，他还是西班牙的一位出色的编年史家，尤其是西班牙与伊斯兰世界的冲突，这可以追溯到西班牙部分地区是伊斯兰时代。
That’s been a tension that has been in the culture for well over 1,000 years.
这种紧张关系在文化中已经存在了 1000 多年。
He has written several works which I find really superior.
他写了几部我认为非常优秀的作品。
He’s one of those authors where you won’t get the same book you got last time.
他是那些你不会再得到上次得到的同一本书的作家之一。
You’ll get something completely different when you pick up the next one.
当你拿起下一个时，你会得到完全不同的东西。
He’s one of those authors who also manages to do — he’s not going to fail at these attempts.
他是那些也设法做到这一点的作家之一——他的这些尝试不会失败。
If they are failures, they’re interesting failures.
如果它们是失败，那也是有趣的失败。
That appeals to me greatly.
这对我来说非常有吸引力。
He’s one of those authors where, if something new of his is coming out, I’m going to make a beeline for it.
他是这样的作家之一，如果他有新的作品问世，我就会径直去看。
On things under- and overrrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
There’s a segment of these chats — you may have heard of it — it’s called “overrated or underrated?” I’m going to call out a few names, books, whatever.
这些聊天中有一段 — 你可能听说过 — 它被称为“高估还是低估？”我要喊出一些名字、书籍等等。
You’re free to decline if you don’t want to offend anyone or other reasons.
如果您不想冒犯任何人或出于其他原因，您可以自由拒绝。
We’ll try just a few, and you tell us overrated or underrated, J.
我们会尝试一些，然后你告诉我们被高估或低估，J.
K.
K.
Rowling?
罗琳？
As a writer, I feel perhaps overrated, but as a cultural phenomenon, I think perfectly fine.
作为一名作家，我觉得也许被高估了，但作为一种文化现象，我认为完全没问题。
It’s hard to say underrated, because she is sort of the ne plus ultra of children’s writing.
很难说她被低估了，因为她是儿童写作中的佼佼者。
Goethe, overrated or underrated?
歌德，被高估还是被低估？
Especially in English, absolutely underrated.
尤其是英语，绝对被低估了。
Goethe is a far more significant author than anybody here seems to realize.
歌德是一位比这里任何人都意识到的更重要的作家。
The TLS just has a review of a new Princeton anthology of the essential Goethe, 1,000 pages.
TLS 刚刚对普林斯顿大学一本新的歌德文集进行了评论，该文集有 1,000 页。
You can’t stuff him into 1,000 pages because there is so much there and so much variety, too, which is also one of the astonishing things.
你不可能把他塞进 1000 页，因为内容太多，种类也太多，这也是令人惊讶的事情之一。
He is the greatest poet of the times, the greatest dramatist of his times.
他是那个时代最伟大的诗人，那个时代最伟大的戏剧家。
And he was an astounding novelist as well.
他也是一位令人惊叹的小说家。
And scientist, a good scientist.
还有科学家，一个好科学家。
Yes, and the Conversations with Eckermann and Soret.
是的，还有与埃克曼和索雷特的对话。
You have all these different things which are just superior.
你拥有所有这些不同的东西，而且都是优越的。
In English he’s vastly underrated.
在英语中，他被大大低估了。
In Germany I think they get it.
在德国，我认为他们明白这一点。
They know.
他们知道。
Angela Merkel, underrated or overrated?
安格拉·默克尔，被低估还是被高估？
I actually have not ever read anything by Angela Merkel.
事实上我从来没有读过安吉拉·默克尔的任何作品。
Not as a writer, as a political leader.
不是作为作家，而是作为政治领袖。
Again, it probably depends where — I admire her.
同样，这可能取决于我在哪里钦佩她。
I think, among the political leaders currently operating in Europe, and especially since we’re speaking shortly after the whole Brexit vote and the turnover that happened in England there, I think she’s probably underrated.
我认为，在目前在欧洲运作的政治领导人中，特别是因为我们是在整个英国脱欧公投和英国发生的人员更替后不久发表讲话的，我认为她可能被低估了。
Herman Melville?
赫尔曼·梅尔维尔？
Probably also underrated.
恐怕也被低估了。
We’re agreeing on all these so far, if you’re curious.
如果你好奇的话，到目前为止我们在所有这些方面都达成了一致。
All right.
好的。
Yeah, I think people also don’t range far enough with Melville.
是的，我认为人们对梅尔维尔的了解还不够远。
When the argument of the great American novel comes up, I always make a plug for The Confidence-Man, which I think is representative.
当美国伟大小说的论点出现时，我总是为《骗子》制作一个插件，我认为它具有代表性。
It says so much about America that I think that would be my choice for the great American novel, and especially from Melville.
它讲述了太多关于美国的事情，我认为这将是我选择这部伟大的美国小说，尤其是梅尔维尔的小说。
Yeah, I think he’s also underrated.
是的，我认为他也被低估了。
I think people also don’t range far enough with Melville.
我认为人们对梅尔维尔的理解还不够远。
When the argument of the great American novel comes up, I always make a plug for The Confidence-Man, which I think is representative.
当美国伟大小说的论点出现时，我总是为《骗子》制作一个插件，我认为它具有代表性。
It says so much about America that I think that would be my choice for the great American novel, and especially from Melville.
它讲述了太多关于美国的事情，我认为这将是我选择这部伟大的美国小说，尤其是梅尔维尔的小说。
Yeah, I think he’s also underrated.
是的，我认为他也被低估了。
Thomas Bernhard?
托马斯·伯恩哈德？
He’s very fashionable, but also I don’t think he can be underrated.
他很时尚，但我也不认为他可以被低估。
I’m also completely behind him.
我也完全支持他。
I think he was a remarkable author I’ve always enjoyed.
我认为他是一位我一直很喜欢的杰出作家。
Even though there is a droning similarity to much of his bitter ranting, it completely wins me over.
尽管与他的大部分尖酸刻薄的咆哮有相似之处，但它完全赢得了我的青睐。
I don’t think I’ve been disappointed by any Bernhard.
我认为我没有对任何伯恩哈德感到失望。
Wittgenstein’s Nephew is my favorite and then The Loser, Der Untergeher.
我最喜欢维特根斯坦的《侄子》，然后是《失败者》、《失败者》。
But all of them, I think, are fantastic.
But all of them, I think, are fantastic.
For me, very underrated.
对我来说，非常被低估。
Another Austrian, Friedrich A.
另一位奥地利人，Friedrich A.
Hayek, the economist?
经济学家哈耶克？
Again, you’re free to pass.
Again, you’re free to pass.
I perhaps don’t like what his arguments are always employed for.
我也许不喜欢他的论点总是被用来做什么。
I mean, currently he’s, obviously, a very popular economist to rely on.
我的意思是，目前他显然是一位非常受欢迎的值得信赖的经济学家。
I think it gets dangerous with the interpretation of the philosophy.
我认为对哲学的解释会变得危险。
I’m a bit more leery of too much enthusiasm for him — but again, obviously such a significant figure that it’s very difficult to underrate him, I think.
我对对他过于热情有点怀疑——但是，我想，显然，他是一个如此重要的人物，很难低估他。
For fiction, what would be the country or region — now, what’s a country, what’s a region is even up for grabs — that is really underappreciated relative to what it has done?
对于小说来说，什么是国家或地区 ——现在，什么是国家，什么是地区甚至可以争夺？——相对于它所做的事情来说，它真的被低估了？
If you say, “Oh, classic Russian fiction,” even if people haven’t read it, people know there’s a lot there.
如果你说，“哦，经典的俄罗斯小说”，即使人们没有读过，人们也知道那里有很多东西。
You probably wouldn’t pick that.
你可能不会选择那个。
What’s the counterintuitive pick for most underrated region or country for wonderful fiction?
对于最被低估的精彩小说地区或国家来说，违反直觉的选择是什么？
Underrated, I would absolutely think the regional language and literature of India.
被低估了，我绝对会想到印度的地方语言和文学。
I think surprisingly, even though, perhaps, English is the main literary language of India and a great deal is locally translated, even there much of the vernacular literature still isn’t available in English.
我认为令人惊讶的是，尽管英语也许是印度的主要文学语言，并且大量内容都是本地翻译的，但许多白话文学仍然没有英语版本。
What one can see of it and also in part hear about it — we’re missing an awful lot.
人们可以看到它，也可以部分听到它的内容 —— 我们错过了很多。
There is a literary culture there, especially, for example, in Bengali, but we’ve had that since Tagore.
那里有一种文学文化，尤其是孟加拉语，但我们自泰戈尔以来就有这种文化。
One of the remarkable things is Tagore won his Nobel prize over a hundred years ago, and there are still novels by him which haven’t been translated into English.
其中一件了不起的事情是泰戈尔在一百多年前获得了诺贝尔奖，而他的小说仍然没有被翻译成英文。
He is really a very good novelist.
他确实是一位非常优秀的小说家。
It’s truly worthwhile, and this goes for many regions.
这确实值得，而且适用于许多地区。
The southern region of Kerala where they write in Malayalam — there’s remarkable literary production there, and we just see so little of it.
他们用马拉雅拉姆语写作的喀拉拉邦南部地区——那里有出色的文学作品，但我们却很少看到。
Also, what is available, because a fair amount is — it tends to be underappreciated, especially in America and the United Kingdom.
此外，还有什么是可用的，因为相当多的东西往往被低估，尤其是在美国和英国。
It hasn’t really reached these shores.
It hasn’t really reached these shores.
Would you pick any part of the world as overrated for literature?
您会选择世界上任何一个因文学而被高估的地方吗？
In a way I know you think it’s all underrated, but in relative terms?
在某种程度上，我知道你认为这一切都被低估了，但相对而言？
I think the American dominance is still too overbearing worldwide.
我认为美国在世界范围内的主导地位还是太霸道了。
We agree on this, too.
我们也同意这一点。
I’m happy to hear you say that, but go on.
I’m happy to hear you say that, but go on.
I think American literature is too often given a free pass, especially abroad, because we’re so used to it being so dominant.
我认为美国文学经常获得免费通行证，尤其是在国外，因为我们已经习惯了它的主导地位。
I really think, if any is overrated, it is American fiction.
我真的认为，如果有什么被高估的话，那就是美国小说。
I think American literature is too often given a free pass, especially abroad, because we’re so used to it being so dominant.
我认为美国文学经常获得免费通行证，尤其是在国外，因为我们已经习惯了它的主导地位。
I really think, if any is overrated, it is American fiction.
我真的认为，如果有什么被高估的话，那就是美国小说。
Most of it bores me.
大部分都让我感到无聊。
One of my pieces of advice for people going to a bookstore — I would just say, “Don’t buy an American novel,” all other things equal, because they’re fairly likely to do so.
我对去书店的人的建议之一是——在其他条件相同的情况下，我只会说“不要买美国小说”，因为他们很可能会这样做。
They’re more likely to have heard of it, without any kind of bias necessarily operating.
他们更有可能听说过它，并且不一定存在任何偏见。
“Refuse to buy American novels for a year,” I think, is a good piece of advice for a lot of people.
我认为“一年内拒绝购买美国小说”对很多人来说是一个很好的建议。
That is, probably.
也就是说，可能是这样。
Yes, that probably is.
是的，可能是这样。
If you think of all of your beliefs about literature, books, fiction — or you can go more broadly if you’d like — what’s the belief you hold that other smart people you respect would find the most absurd?
如果你想想你对文学、书籍、小说的所有信念——或者如果你愿意，你可以更广泛地思考——你认为你尊敬的其他聪明人会觉得最荒谬的信念是什么？
If someone said, “Oh, I think Robert Heinlein is the greatest author ever to have walked on Earth,” that would be considered absurd.
如果有人说：“哦，我认为罗伯特·海因莱因是地球上有史以来最伟大的作家”，这会被认为是荒谬的。
It’s not my belief, probably not yours.
这不是我的信仰，也可能不是你的信仰。
What’s your craziest view relative to the other people you think are smart and respect?
相对于其他你认为聪明且值得尊敬的人来说，你最疯狂的观点是什么？
In a literary sense?
从文学意义上来说？
You can go broader if you want.
You can go broader if you want.
Start with literary.
从文学开始。
Oh God, I don’t know.
天哪，我不知道。
My opinions are so firmly held.
我的观点是如此坚定。
I believe them to be so obvious.
I believe them to be so obvious.
No, you may still think you’re right.
不，你可能仍然认为你是对的。
Right, but see, I don’t know.
是的，但是看，我不知道。
But other people don’t agree.
But other people don’t agree.
I don’t get those disagreements.
我不明白这些分歧。
They don’t dare disagree to my face, apparently.
显然，他们不敢当着我的面表示不同意见。
I really don’t know.
我真的不知道。
Nothing comes obviously to mind.
没有什么明显的想法。
And more generally?
更一般地说？
Also not.
也不是。
More generally, I guess the standout belief is I don’t see myself having the concern for mortality which most other people seem to have.
更一般地说，我想最突出的信念是我不认为自己像大多数其他人那样担心死亡。
That seems to be a very popular thing in reading, as well, that there’s this obsession with mortality, which I find a bit odd.
这似乎也是阅读中非常流行的事情，即人们对死亡的痴迷，我觉得这有点奇怪。
You think we fear death too much?
You think we fear death too much?
Yes, and many people seem to really obsess about it in a certain sense.
是的，从某种意义上说，许多人似乎真的很着迷。
That’s something — I don’t think necessarily my opinion is strange.
这就是 —— 我认为我的观点不一定很奇怪。
It’s something so foreign to me.
这对我来说太陌生了。
The other thing is, also, I have great difficulty with religion.
另一件事是，我对宗教也有很大的困难。
The God concept is just — I can’t — I really don’t know how to regard that.
上帝的概念只是 —— 我不能 —— 我真的不知道该如何看待这一点。
It is one I can’t fit into my worldview and any of my actions.
这是我无法融入我的世界观和我的任何行为的。
Even though I read a great deal which also, again, is based on this, that part of it always remains foreign to me.
尽管我读了很多同样基于此的内容，但其中的那部分对我来说始终是陌生的。
When it comes to death, would you say death is underrated or life is overrated?
当谈到死亡时，你会说死亡被低估了，还是生命被高估了？
You can’t overrate life.
你不能高估生活。
It’s all we’ve got.
这就是我们所拥有的一切。
Again, because I don’t believe in the religion aspect of it, too, I don’t believe in the afterlife.
再说一遍，因为我也不相信宗教方面的内容，所以我不相信来世。
I definitely think life is underrated, but death is an inevitability.
我绝对认为生命被低估了，但死亡是不可避免的。
You take it as it comes because there’s no other way to take it.
你接受它，因为没有其他方法可以接受它。
You can’t overrate life.
你不能高估生活。
It’s all we’ve got.
这就是我们所拥有的一切。
Again, because I don’t believe in the religion aspect of it, too, I don’t believe in the afterlife.
再说一遍，因为我也不相信宗教方面的内容，所以我不相信来世。
I definitely think life is underrated, but death is an inevitability.
我绝对认为生命被低估了，但死亡是不可避免的。
You take it as it comes because there’s no other way to take it.
你接受它，因为没有其他方法可以接受它。
On the charm of the Complete Review
论完整评论的魅力
Let me tell you about one of the things I find most charming about your site and your reviews.
让我告诉您我认为您的网站和评论最吸引人的地方之一。
There’s this unusual mix between extreme passion for the subject, curiosity, and drive to get the books and track what’s coming out, reading them, and then a lot about how other people are reviewing the books.
对这个主题的极度热情、好奇心、获取书籍并跟踪即将出版的内容、阅读它们以及了解其他人如何评论这些书籍的动力之间存在着这种不寻常的结合。
If one reads your site, they don’t just get you.
如果有人阅读您的网站，他们不仅仅会了解您。
You get a whole broad panoply of other reviews.
你会得到各种各样的其他评论。
It’s one of the most valuable things.
这是最有价值的东西之一。
But then, on the other hand, you’re very hard to impress as a reader.
但另一方面，作为读者，你很难给读者留下深刻的印象。
You give these short capsules of your reviews.
您给出了这些简短的评论。
Here are three of your more recent ones.
这是您最近的三个。
Oh dear.
哦亲爱的。
COWEN: I quote: “Passable ultra‑lite fare.” Here’s another one: “Typical Carlotto tale of justice in a flawed world.” So there’s something reductionist.
COWEN：我引用：“还过得去的超轻票价。”这是另一则：“有缺陷的世界中典型的卡洛托正义故事。”所以有一些还原论。
Here’s one — you were very enthusiastic — “Nicely done.”
这是一个 — 你非常热情 — “干得好。”
I know those are shorter capsules for broader, more detailed reviews, but this mix between the blasé and the enthusiasm and how willing you are to just retreat into like, “Eh” — that’s what I find so intriguing about Literary Saloon.
我知道这些简短的胶囊是为了更广泛、更详细的评论，但这种厌倦与热情的混合，以及你多么愿意退回到“呃” ——这就是我觉得文学沙龙如此有趣的地方。
Is there anything you would say to that?
对此你有什么想说的吗？
I hope people use the site in that way.
我希望人们以这种方式使用该网站。
In a way my reviews presuppose familiarity with the site.
在某种程度上，我的评论是以熟悉该网站为前提的。
I assume that people — they look up a couple of reviews, and they get an idea of what this person is doing.
我假设人们会查阅一些评论，然后了解这个人在做什么。
The capsule reviews, I think, are a counterbalance to the longer reviews, in which, often, I will be more enthusiastic.
我认为，胶囊评论是对较长评论的一种平衡，在较长评论中，我通常会更加热情。
This ultra‑lite novel — I gave it a B.
这本超轻小说 —— 我给它打了B。
It’s perfectly competently done, but it’s just a vacuous, problematic — there’s so little to it, but it’s still perfectly readable.
它做得非常好，但它只是一个空洞的、有问题的——它的内容很少，但它仍然是完全可读的。
I hope I explained that fully in the review itself.
我希望我在评论本身中充分解释了这一点。
You did.
你做到了。
The original idea behind the site was to be able to link to other reviews.
该网站最初的想法是能够链接到其他评论。
And also I have the review quotes from the major review publications, where there are review quotes available, which I actually did sort of as a countermeasure.
我还从主要评论出版物中获取了评论引用，其中有可用的评论引用，这实际上是我作为一种对策所做的。
I was so irritated by the blurbs you find on the back of the paperback editions, which are not at all representative of the reviews of the book.
我对平装本背面的简介感到非常恼火，这些简介根本不能代表这本书的评论。
I wanted to give the honest blurbs of the reviews.
我想诚实地介绍一下评论。
It’s always been important to me that my opinion is my opinion.
我的意见就是我的意见，这对我来说一直很重要。
You really should seek out as many different ones as possible.
你真的应该尽可能多地寻找不同的。
To be able to give access to all these different reviews to point readers to — because some readers rely on a certain reviewer — if I can give them the link to that for this book so that they will get an opinion which, perhaps, is more informative to them than mine can be because they don’t see eye to eye with me, I think that’s a very important thing.
为了能够让读者访问所有这些不同的评论——因为有些读者依赖某个评论者——如果我能给他们链接到这本书，这样他们就会得到一个意见，这个意见对他们来说可能比我的更能提供信息，因为他们与我意见不一致，我认为这是一件非常重要的事情。
Having as many different opinions as possible — to me that always seems beneficial.
拥有尽可能多的不同意见——对我来说这似乎总是有益的。
I realize now we have this issue of whether the wisdom of crowds really is wisdom and whether it doesn’t overcomplicate matters as well.
我现在意识到，我们面临的问题是，群体的智慧是否真的是智慧，以及它是否不会让事情变得过于复杂。
But it’s always been important to me that I have very strongly held opinions, but please also consider the other opinions.
但对我来说很重要的是，我持有非常强烈的观点，但也请考虑其他观点。
Other reviews — and here I mean media, not bloggers — how corrupt are they?
其他评论 — 这里我指的是媒体，而不是博主 — 他们有多腐败？
Corrupt in what sense?
腐败在什么意义上？
That there’s something in the process which involves favoritism, and maybe there’s an incentive for excess enthusiasm.
在这个过程中有些事情涉及偏袒，也许有过度热情的动机。
If your book review section reviews thirteen books and says they’re all mediocre, people won’t buy the books, but more importantly, they’ll stop buying your book review section.
如果你的书评部分评论了十三本书，并说它们都很平庸，人们就不会购买这些书，但更重要的是，他们会停止购买你的书评部分。
Right?
正确的？
Yes.
是的。
Do you think there’s, for instance, an incentive to be too positive or some other skew?
例如，您认为是否存在过于积极或其他偏差的动机？
I don’t know that it’s as blatant as that.
我不知道事情有这么明目张胆。
I definitely think editors certainly prefer positive reviews.
我绝对认为编辑肯定更喜欢正面评论。
There are some newspapers which basically won’t print negative reviews.
有一些报纸基本上不会刊登负面评论。
I think that’s always an issue.
我认为这始终是一个问题。
They can say, “Well, we preselect.
他们可以说：“好吧，我们预先选择。
That’s the way we do it.”
我们就是这样做的。”
One of the things I love about how I’m able to review books is that I’ll review almost anything.
我喜欢评论书籍的一件事是我几乎会评论任何东西。
I will actually review it even if I do not enjoy the book, even if I have immense problems with the book, because I think that’s just — .
即使我不喜欢这本书，即使我对这本书有很大的问题，我实际上也会审阅它，因为我认为那只是 - 。
You don’t put them down like I do.
你不会像我一样把它们放下。
Take New York Times or Amazon; I know there’s both.
以《纽约时报》或亚马逊为例；我知道两者都有。
If you had to choose, which do you trust more?
如果让你选择，你更相信哪一个？
I don’t know if I can — I like Amazon because I can get a lot of information out of Amazon, the way the information is presented and, in part, with the reviews, depending on how widely it’s been reviewed.
我不知道我是否可以 —— 我喜欢亚马逊，因为我可以从亚马逊获得很多信息，信息的呈现方式，以及部分评论，这取决于评论的广泛程度。
Part of the problem with the New York Times, of course, is that they can only review so few books.
当然，《纽约时报》的部分问题在于他们只能评论很少的书。
You have really so little information, or information about so few titles, whereas Amazon, you have at least some information about practically everything.
你的信息真的太少了，或者说关于书名的信息太少了，而亚马逊，你至少有一些几乎所有东西的信息。
In that sense, Goodreads is perhaps even more useful, especially with the foreign-language books.
从这个意义上说，Goodreads 可能更有用，尤其是外语书籍。
There will usually at least be people who have already reviewed the foreign-language edition.
通常至少会有人已经审阅过外文版。
That’s helpful.
这很有帮助。
One of the things I find remarkable about my site is I try to link to big media reviews.
我发现我的网站引人注目的一件事是我尝试链接到大型媒体评论。
And an extraordinary number of the books which I cover basically go unreviewed in the major media, often even in Publishers Weekly, which I find kind of shocking.
我所报道的大量书籍基本上没有在主要媒体上受到评论，甚至经常在《出版商周刊》上，这让我感到有点震惊。
I do review obscure books, but it’s not that obscure.
我确实评论过一些晦涩难懂的书，但并不是那么晦涩难懂。
I’m fascinated — the Literary Hub is a very good website now, which collects a lot of literary information.
我很着迷 —— 文学中心现在是一个非常好的网站，收集了很多文学信息。
They’ve also now started a review-aggregating part of the site called Book Marks.
他们现在还在网站上启动了一个名为“书签”的评论聚合部分。
Basically what they do is when they find reviews in three of the publications they monitor — which are basically all American major publications and a few Internet sites — if they have three reviews for a book, then they’ll put that on Book Marks with the summaries and links to the reviews.
基本上，他们所做的就是在他们监控的三份出版物中找到评论（基本上都是美国主要出版物和一些互联网网站），如果他们对一本书有三篇评论，那么他们会将其放在书签上，并附有摘要和评论链接。
So, sort of what I do.
所以，这就是我所做的。
I find maybe one out of ten of the books I cover qualify for that.
我发现我所读的书中可能有十分之一符合这一条件。
I find that shocking.
我觉得这令人震惊。
On the complete Michael Orthofer
关于完整的迈克尔·奥索弗
We know you can read in a lot of different languages, and we know you read a lot of books.
我们知道您可以阅读多种不同语言的内容，并且我们知道您读了很多书。
To close, what are three other things about yourself you might want to tell us, not to do with books?
最后，您可能想告诉我们关于您自己的另外三件事，与书籍无关？
I don’t know that anyone would find anything interesting about me.
我不知道有人会对我感兴趣。
I don’t know what could possibly — .
我不知道什么可能 —— 。
Ice sculpture, perhaps?
也许是冰雕？
The ice sculpture.
冰雕。
Dare I mention it?
我敢提吗？
You can mention it.
你可以提一下。
You’re a fan of doing ice sculpture.
你是冰雕爱好者。
I am.
我是。
Basically, when there’s a lot of snow out, I won’t just build a snowman, but I will try to sculpt as much as I can out of the snow.
基本上，当外面下很大的雪时，我不会只是堆雪人，而是会尝试尽可能多地用雪来雕刻。
I enjoy doing that because the snow is always different.
我喜欢这样做，因为雪总是不同的。
The conditions are always different.
条件总是不同的。
What you can make out of it is different.
你能从中得到的东西是不同的。
It’s also completely transitory.
它也是完全暂时的。
It’s gone usually in a short time, sometimes a few weeks or months.
它通常会在很短的时间内消失，有时是几周或几个月。
It’s the Andy Goldsworthy sculptures in nature taken to the more extreme, because the snow is obviously really very short lasting.
这是安迪·高兹沃西（Andy Goldsworthy）在自然界中的雕塑被发挥到了极致，因为雪显然持续时间非常短。
It also shape‑shifts as it collapses, as it falls apart.
当它崩溃、分崩离析时，它的形状也会发生变化。
You were born in Graz, Austria, right?
您出生在奥地利格拉茨，对吗？
I was, yes.
我是，是的。
You have a background in law.
你有法律背景。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
I do.
我愿意。
I have a degree in law.
我拥有法律学位。
I’m a New York State lawyer.
我是纽约州的律师。
You were put off by the academic nature of formal literary study because it involved so little reading of books and too much theory?
您对正式文学研究的学术性质感到厌烦，因为它涉及的书籍阅读太少而理论太多？
Very much so, yes.
非常如此，是的。
I was disappointed at university.
我对大学很失望。
Basically, you could study literature without reading basically, without reading fiction especially, and more importantly without really engaging in fiction, I think.
基本上，我认为，你可以在不阅读的情况下学习文学，特别是不阅读小说，更重要的是不真正参与小说。
Literature can lend itself to theory.
文学可以用于理论。
You can build theory around it, but I don’t find that a useful way of dealing with literature.
你可以围绕它建立理论，但我认为这不是处理文学的有用方法。
Anyway, thank you very much, Michael.
不管怎样，非常感谢你，迈克尔。
Again, this is Michael’s book, Columbia University Press, The Complete Review Guide to Contemporary World Fiction.
同样，这是迈克尔的书，哥伦比亚大学出版社，《当代世界小说完整评论指南》。
Michael Orthofer, in my opinion still vastly underrated.
在我看来，迈克尔·奥索弗仍然被大大低估了。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。