Michael Moritz on Origin Stories, Exile, and Obsessive Curiosity (Ep. 288)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today, I am chatting with Michael Moritz.
今天，我正在与迈克尔·莫里茨聊天。
Michael is perhaps best known for his work as a venture capitalist through Sequoia.
迈克尔最出名的或许是他作为红杉资本的风险投资家。
Before that, he was a very active and successful journalist with several books to his credit, including the first study of Apple and an excellent work on Alex Ferguson of Manchester United.
在此之前，他是一位非常活跃且成功的记者，出版了多本著作，其中包括第一本关于苹果公司的研究以及关于曼联的亚历克斯·弗格森的出色著作。
Michael is extremely well known, in addition, for his work in philanthropy.
此外，迈克尔因其慈善事业而闻名。
For instance, his institution Crankstart has been supporting the Booker Prize since 2019.
例如，他的机构 Crankstart 自 2019 年以来一直支持布克奖。
He also is involved in San Francisco Standard, but most importantly, from our point of view, Michael has a new and excellent book out called Ausländer: One Family’s Story of Escape and Exile, which I absolutely recommend to you all.
他还参与了《旧金山标准》，但最重要的是，从我们的角度来看，迈克尔出版了一本出色的新书，名为《Ausländer：一个家庭的逃亡和流亡故事》，我绝对向大家推荐这本书。
Michael, welcome.
迈克尔，欢迎。
Thank you for that very kind and flattering introduction.
谢谢你的善意和谄媚的介绍。
I have many questions for you in many areas.
我在很多方面有很多问题要问你。
Let’s start with Wales.
让我们从威尔士开始。
Did the nonconformism of Methodist Wales make it easier for Jews to settle and feel at home there?
威尔士卫理公会的不墨守成规是否让犹太人更容易在那里定居并有宾至如归的感觉？
I’m not sure that that actually was the case.
我不确定事实是否如此。
I think that the principal reason that Jews, particularly the ones of my parents’ generation, settled in Wales were that those with entrepreneurial attributes were encouraged to settle in South Wales and in some other parts of Britain to set up businesses, to encourage local employment, and stimulate job growth.
我认为犹太人，特别是我父母那一代犹太人定居威尔士的主要原因是鼓励具有创业属性的人到南威尔士和英国其他一些地区定居创业，鼓励当地就业，刺激就业增长。
I don’t think that any aspect, probably of the established church or churches made the new immigrants to Wales feel any more comfortable.
我不认为任何方面，可能是现有教会的任何方面，都没有让威尔士的新移民感到更舒服。
How was Welsh antisemitism different from English antisemitism?
威尔士反犹太主义与英国反犹太主义有何不同？
Well, first of all, I want to be really careful here because Britain opened its doors to my parents.
嗯，首先，我在这里要非常小心，因为英国向我的父母敞开了大门。
My parents were refugees from Nazi Germany.
我的父母是纳粹德国的难民。
They both were permitted to come into Britain as children, as teenagers.
他们都被允许在儿童和青少年时期进入英国。
Both of them were around 14 years old when they were fortunate enough to land in Britain.
当他们有幸登陆英国时，两人都在14岁左右。
Britain was one of the few countries, albeit with quotas, that opened the doors to Jews desperately trying to flee the Nazi stain that was spreading all over Europe.
尽管有配额，但英国是少数几个向绝望地试图逃离遍布欧洲的纳粹污点的犹太人敞开大门的国家之一。
Britain, back in the late 1930s and certainly during the time that I was growing up there, which was predominantly in the 1950s, ’60s, and early ’70s, was far less a multicultural country than it is today.
英国，早在 20 世纪 30 年代末，当然还有我在那里长大的那段时间，主要是 20 世纪 50 年代、60 年代和 70 年代初，当时的英国远不像今天那样是一个多元文化的国家。
Anybody from abroad, they could have been Italian waiters in Soho—there were very few blacks or anybody from Asia in Britain at the time that I was growing up—anybody who looked out of the ordinary was considered by the majority of the people, as always happens, a bit of an outsider.
任何来自国外的人，他们都可能是苏荷区的意大利服务员——在我长大的时候，英国很少有黑人或亚洲人——任何看起来与众不同的人都会被大多数人认为是一个局外人，就像往常一样。
That was displayed in a whole variety of ways.
这以各种各样的方式展现出来。
Nonetheless, whether it was in Wales or, to answer your question, in England, I’m not sure that it differed all that much.
尽管如此，无论是在威尔士，还是在英格兰（回答你的问题），我不确定情况是否有那么大的不同。
According to some sources, the population of Welsh Jews peaked in around 1919 at around 5,000, and then it declined radically.
据一些消息来源称，威尔士犹太人的人口在 1919 年左右达到顶峰，约为 5,000 人，然后急剧下降。
Why did so many Jews leave Wales?
为什么这么多犹太人离开威尔士？
Is it just movement to London?
只是搬到伦敦吗？
I don’t think it declined that rapidly.
我不认为它下降得那么快。
I think there were, I don’t know how many in the ’60s when I was growing up, maybe there were 600 families around Wales that were Jewish out of a population of around, probably back then, about 2.5 million.
我想，在我成长过程中的 60 年代，我不知道有多少个，威尔士周围可能有 600 个家庭是犹太人，而当时的人口可能约为 250 万。
I think the younger people tended to leave for opportunity.
我认为年轻人往往会为了机会而离开。
Small countries or Wales and other parts of the United Kingdom that presented limited opportunity for people with ambition meant that the younger people in particular tended to leave, and they tended on the whole to head toward London.
小国或威尔士和英国其他地区为有抱负的人提供的机会有限，这意味着年轻人尤其倾向于离开，而他们总体上倾向于前往伦敦。
You left Wales at age 19, correct?
您 19 岁时离开威尔士，对吗？
Yes, 18, 19.
是的，18、19。
What was your thought process at the time?
你当时的思考过程是怎样的？
Was it screaming, “I have to get out of here,” or a marginal decision?
是尖叫着“我必须离开这里”还是一个边际决定？
No, it was far more conventional than that.
不，它比那要传统得多。
I left Wales after I finished high school and I went to university.
高中毕业后我离开了威尔士，上了大学。
That was the first time I’d lived in England.
那是我第一次住在英国。
Then outside of vacations, I never really went back to Wales.
然后除了假期，我就再也没有真正回过威尔士。
Since 1973, my life has been really spent outside of Wales.
自 1973 年以来，我的生活实际上是在威尔士以外的地方度过的。
On living with difficult art
论与困难的艺术共存
At that young age, were you already interested in art and fiction?
在那么年轻的时候，你就已经对艺术和小说感兴趣了吗？
Funnily enough, I was in both.
有趣的是，我两者皆有。
Take the art first.
先拿艺术来说。
I think I owe this to my mother, whom otherwise I had a fairly strained relationship with, but bless her heart.
我认为这要归功于我的母亲，否则我和她的关系相当紧张，但祝福她的心。
She was the victim of this age-old prejudice against women and left school at the age of 15 and always felt a little inferior to people with college and university educations.
她是这种对女性的古老偏见的受害者，15岁时就离开了学校，总是觉得自己比受过大学教育的人有点自卑。
She had a really—and I don’t know, I never talked to her about it—I don’t know where it came from.
她真的——我不知道，我从来没有和她谈过这件事——我不知道它从何而来。
She had a lifelong affection for the visual arts and for music.
她对视觉艺术和音乐有着终生的热爱。
At home, the radio was always on with her listening to music.
在家里，收音机一直开着，她听着音乐。
When she took me and my sister to the museum in Wales, the National Museum of Wales, which actually has a pretty good collection, some really interesting impressionist pictures and, oddly, some Francis Bacon.
当她带我和我妹妹去威尔士的博物馆时，威尔士国家博物馆实际上有相当不错的藏品，一些非常有趣的印象派画作，奇怪的是，还有一些弗朗西斯·培根。
I think that’s what woke my interest in art.
我想这就是唤醒我对艺术的兴趣的原因。
I bought my first picture, which I gave as a gift to my parents when I was 13.
我买了我的第一张照片，作为我 13 岁时送给父母的礼物。
I did so in Cardiff.
我在卡迪夫就是这样做的。
It was a little watercolor and pencil drawing of a winding mechanism at a pit head, these big winding mechanisms that used to sit astride the places in coal mines in Wales where the coal came up from below.
这是一幅水彩画和铅笔画，画的是矿坑顶部的上链装置，这些大型上链装置曾经横跨威尔士煤矿的各个位置，煤炭从下面上来。
I still have that picture.
我还留着那张照片。
After my mother died, I got it, and it hangs in my office at home, right by my desk.
我母亲去世后，我得到了它，它挂在我家里的办公室里，就在我的桌子旁边。
Is it easy to live with an Otto Dix painting or sketch?
接受奥托·迪克斯的绘画或素描容易吗？
It hangs on the wall.
它挂在墙上。
Many people think it’s ugly.
很多人认为它很丑。
It reminds one of unpleasant things in history, right?
这让我想起了历史上的一件不愉快的事情，对吗？
Yes, for Harriet and me it is.
是的，对哈丽特和我来说确实如此。
I think the tougher, more strenuous, grueling works of art that other people would have difficulty living with have many layers to them.
我认为其他人难以忍受的更艰难、更费力、更费力的艺术作品有很多层次。
You explore them, and they’re difficult pictures, and they’re not easy at first sight.
当你探索它们时，你会发现它们都是困难的图片，而且乍一看并不容易。
Unlike easier pictures that may be a bit more decorative, they leave room for plenty of exploration, as the years go by.
与可能更具装饰性的简单图片不同，随着时间的推移，它们为大量探索留下了空间。
Then they’re redolent, they tell stories.
然后它们会散发出香味，会讲故事。
They’re redolent of history.
它们充满了历史的味道。
They’re images of a different epoch.
它们是不同时代的图像。
I think most of the paintings that we’ve been lucky enough to find over the years, they are tough paintings.
我认为这些年来我们有幸找到的大多数画作都是艰难的画作。
I feel that way about Haitian art, which has many brutal scenes.
我对海地艺术有这种感觉，那里有很多残酷的场景。
For you, is Chagall too sentimental?
对你来说，夏加尔是不是太感伤了？
Yes.
是的。
You don’t want to put it on your wall?
你不想把它挂在墙上吗？
The earlier Chagalls I’ve been drawn to, but neither of us have felt the urge or the need to go out in pursuit of Chagall.
我被夏加尔早期的作品所吸引，但我们俩都没有感受到出去追寻夏加尔的冲动或必要性。
What is your own painting like?
你自己的画是什么样的？
Oh, exasperating.
哦，真气人。
Neue Sachlichkeit or something else, it’s like Kossoff?
Neue Sachlichkeit 或者其他什么，就像科索夫？
No, I don’t know if you’ve ever tried painting or drawing.
不，我不知道你是否尝试过绘画。
I didn’t take it up until I was in my mid 40s.
直到我 40 多岁的时候我才开始做这件事。
I’d never picked up a crayon or outside of the obligatory, abbreviated art lessons that always seem to be held later on Thursday afternoon, with everybody waiting for the bell to ring to end school.
我从来没有拿起蜡笔，也没有在必修的、简短的艺术课之外学习，这些课似乎总是在周四下午晚些时候举行，每个人都在等待放学的铃声。
I’d never taken up a crayon or drew, or let alone painted.
我从来没有拿起蜡笔或画画，更不用说画画了。
If I look back today at what I did early on, it’s a lot better.
如果我今天回顾一下我早些时候所做的事情，那就好多了。
Then if I look at the paintings that I try to make, my goodness, it is an extremely humbling experience, but I enjoy it.
然后，如果我看着自己尝试创作的画作，天哪，这是一次极其谦卑的经历，但我很享受。
I really enjoy it.
我真的很喜欢它。
There’s nothing like getting lost in making a painting, and before you know it, two hours have gone, and you have no idea where the time went.
没有什么比在画画时迷失方向更好的了，不知不觉中，两个小时已经过去了，你不知道时间都去哪儿了。
How has living with the visual arts improved your investing skills?
与视觉艺术一起生活如何提高您的投资技巧？
I’m not sure that it’s had any influence whatsoever on investments.
我不确定这对投资有任何影响。
Talent identification, isn’t it some area where there’s always a deeper understanding in the visual arts, and you then later can apply those frameworks to individuals or companies?
人才识别，难道不是一个对视觉艺术总有更深入理解的领域，然后你可以将这些框架应用到个人或公司吗？
I understand the argument, but I began my life as a journalist and maybe subliminally, because I look fairly intently and always look fairly intently at works of art that have caught my eye, I think I’ve always looked carefully at whatever it is in front of me.
我理解这个论点，但我开始了我的记者生涯，也许是潜意识里的，因为我相当专心地看，而且总是相当专心地看吸引我眼球的艺术作品，我想我总是仔细地看我面前的任何东西。
It could be a landscape, could be a building, could be a person, and have been pretty watchful and have listened carefully.
它可以是风景，可以是建筑物，可以是人，并且一直保持警惕并仔细聆听。
I think all three are connected when you are trying to take the measure of somebody when you’re thinking about forming a business relationship with them.
我认为，当你试图衡量某人、考虑与他们建立业务关系时，这三者都是相互联系的。
On Jewish literature
论犹太文学
Your father was a classics scholar.
你的父亲是一位古典学者。
Were you interested in Homer as a teenager?
您青少年时期对荷马感兴趣吗？
I was not.
我不是。
I suppose, like a lot of sons, I tried to get as far away from the classics as possible.
我想，就像很多儿子一样，我试图尽可能远离经典。
My Latin teacher at school was sure that he had a little Latin genius on his hands since I was the son of a classics professor, and then I proceeded to severely disappoint him for the next three years.
我在学校的拉丁语老师确信他有一点拉丁语天才，因为我是一位古典学教授的儿子，然后我在接下来的三年里让他严重失望。
What in Jewish literature means the most to you?
犹太文学中什么对你来说最重要？
Well, when I was growing up, I devoured the works of the American Jewish authors who really made their mark during the 1950s and 1960s, and predominantly Philip Roth and Norman Mailer, although there is obviously a string of others as well.
好吧，在我成长的过程中，我如饥似渴地阅读了在 20 世纪 50 年代和 1960 年代真正崭露头角的美国犹太作家的作品，其中主要是菲利普·罗斯 (Philip Roth) 和诺曼·梅勒 (Norman Mailer)，尽管显然还有一系列其他作家。
Those were the two that, as soon as they published a new book, I immediately went out to buy the book.
就是这两个人，一出了新书，我就立刻出去买书了。
You knew Roth, right?
你认识罗斯，对吧？
What was he like?
他是什么样的人？
I was very lucky when I went to university in America, I went to the University of Pennsylvania, and here he was, one of the heroes of modern literature.
我很幸运，我在美国上大学的时候，我去了宾夕法尼亚大学，而他就在这里，现代文学的英雄之一。
He was teaching a small seminar class at the University of Pennsylvania and I enrolled in it.
他在宾夕法尼亚大学教授一个小型研讨班，我报名参加了。
And as a teacher, he had edited a Penguin series on Eastern European authors, so he taught from that canon.
作为一名教师，他编辑了有关东欧作家的企鹅系列丛书，因此他以该经典为基础进行教学。
And one of his abiding virtues as a teacher or as a professor, was he prescribed short books to read, so he didn’t ask his students to read 600-page tomes.
作为一名教师或教授，他持久的美德之一是他规定阅读短篇书籍，因此他没有要求学生阅读 600 页的大部头著作。
Most of the books that I remember him asking us to read were fairly short, so you could really read them without feeling out of breath and then have time to ingest them.
我记得他要求我们读的大多数书都很短，所以你可以真正读完它们而不会感到气喘吁吁，然后有时间消化它们。
And he listened very carefully and was very polite and courteous toward all of his students.
他听得很仔细，对所有学生都非常有礼貌和礼貌。
Then he very, very kindly wrote me a reference when I applied for a job at Time Magazine.
然后，当我申请《时代》杂志的工作时，他非常非常友善地给我写了一封推荐信。
I’m not sure that many people who applied at Time had a reference from Philip Roth.
我不确定很多在《时代》杂志申请的人都有菲利普·罗斯的推荐信。
Then later in life, way later in life, our paths crossed again through a mutual friend and for several years, when our family was in the habit of going to New York to celebrate Thanksgiving with friends, Philip was a mutual friend of the hostess and so for, I don’t know, half a dozen years, we always had Thanksgiving dinner and among the guests was Philip Roth.
后来，在人生的后来，很晚的时候，我们的人生道路通过一个共同的朋友再次相遇，有好几年，当我们一家人习惯去纽约和朋友一起庆祝感恩节时，菲利普是女主人共同的朋友，所以，我不知道，六年来，我们总是吃感恩节晚餐，客人中有菲利普·罗斯。
And unless he was in a deep funk, he was always wry and amusing and sardonic.
除非他陷入深深的恐惧之中，否则他总是会挖苦、有趣、讽刺。
How would you describe your current relationship to the Hebrew Bible?
您如何描述您目前与希伯来圣经的关系？
More distant than removed.
比移除更遥远。
I am not an observant Jew and haven’t been.
我不是一个善于观察的犹太人，过去也不是。
I obviously identify very proudly as a Jew.
我显然非常自豪地认为自己是犹太人。
My father was what in America would be called a conservative Jew, and he was deeply educated in the Jewish Bible and interpretations of the Jewish Bible.
我的父亲在美国被称为保守派犹太人，他受过犹太圣经和犹太圣经解释的深刻教育。
I think maybe his fascination with it, just like his devotion to Latin, I think drove me away from it.
我想也许是他对拉丁语的迷恋，就像他对拉丁语的热爱一样，我想这驱使我远离了它。
But he had also grown up in an era in Germany where there weren’t very many distractions, and I think the main entertainment of the week, best as I could tell, was going to the synagogue.
但他也在德国长大，那里没有太多干扰，据我所知，我认为本周的主要娱乐活动是去犹太教堂。
On why children don't interrogate their parents
为什么孩子不审问父母
Why do you think sons and daughters do not ask more questions about their parents’ and grandparents’ history when they can?
您认为为什么儿子和女儿在可以的时候不会询问更多有关父母和祖父母的历史的问题？
They’re too self-absorbed.
他们太自我陶醉了。
They aren’t curious.
他们并不好奇。
They don’t understand that every individual has a story, and on the whole, with every individual, the more that you dig, the more interesting it becomes.
他们不明白每个人都有一个故事，总的来说，对于每个人来说，你挖掘得越多，它就会变得越有趣。
They don’t know how to ask questions, and they don’t know how to listen.
他们不知道如何提问，也不知道如何倾听。
If you could ask your parents something now, what would you ask?
如果你现在可以问你的父母一件事，你会问什么？
It wouldn’t be one question.
这不是一个问题。
Because I obviously have written this book that’s a family memoir about what happened to my parents’ generation, and how that shaped me.
因为我写的这本书显然是一本家庭回忆录，讲述了我父母那一代发生的事情，以及这如何塑造了我。
It wouldn’t be one question, Tyler.
这不是一个问题，泰勒。
It would be hundreds of questions.
这将是数百个问题。
And you know better than I do from all the interviews that you’ve done, it’s the answer to a question that then prompts another question.
从你所做的所有采访中，你比我更清楚，一个问题的答案会引发另一个问题。
I probably can’t imagine running out of questions for either of them, but these are for people who’ve been through extraordinarily traumatic times.
我可能无法想象对他们中的任何一个都没有问题，但这些问题是针对那些经历过极其痛苦时期的人的。
People also suppress memories.
人们也会压抑记忆。
It’s sometimes difficult to, even though their spirit may be willing, it’s very difficult to excavate an answer.
有时很难，即使他们的精神愿意，也很难挖掘出答案。
Say it’s your grandparents, Max and Minnie, who were killed in the Holocaust.
假设你的祖父母麦克斯和米妮在大屠杀中丧生。
Where would you start with them?
你会从哪里开始呢？
I think I’d probably start where I do, oddly enough, with founders at the beginning, because right or wrong—and different people will have different opinions—I just think the first 10, 15 years of life that anybody experiences shapes the individual in profound and deep fashions that then whatever happens to them, subsequently, echo through their life.
我想我可能会从我所做的开始，奇怪的是，一开始就从创始人开始，因为对或错——不同的人会有不同的观点——我只是认为任何人经历的前 10 年、15 年都会以深刻而深刻的方式塑造个人，然后无论发生在他们身上，都会在他们的生活中产生回响。
It’s really the details of the circumstances.
这确实是具体情况的细节。
Imagine being a 10-year-old boy in 1890 or 1891, and you’re in a little village beside a river in the middle of Germany.
想象一下，你是 1890 年或 1891 年的一个 10 岁男孩，身处德国中部河边的一个小村庄。
Well, what was life really like?
那么，生活到底是什么样的呢？
Who woke you up in the morning?
早上是谁叫醒你的？
Did you have somebody else sleeping in the same bedroom or in the same bed?
你们是否与其他人睡在同一间卧室或同一张床上？
Do you remember what you had for breakfast?
你还记得早餐吃什么吗？
What were the clothes that you wore to school?
你去学校穿的衣服是什么？
I mean, you can just think of hundreds and hundreds of questions.
我的意思是，你可以想出成百上千的问题。
Obviously, my grandfather, the gentleman that you alluded to, Max, he joined the German army, and he served in World War I and was one of the survivors of the most gruesome, brutal battle in the history of mankind, which was Verdun.
显然，我的祖父，你提到的马克斯先生，他加入了德国军队，参加了第一次世界大战，是人类历史上最可怕、最残酷的凡尔登战役的幸存者之一。
He survived it.
他活了下来。
You can just imagine the number of questions you’d want to ask about that.
你可以想象一下你想问的问题数量。
That’s just one experience and obviously an enormously dramatic experience, but you can just imagine the number of questions you’d want to ask about that.
这只是一次经历，而且显然是一次非常戏剧性的经历，但你可以想象你想问的问题有多少。
On returning to Germany
返回德国时
Why do you think it is in the late 19th century that there’s such a resurgence of antisemitism in Germany, which for a while, at least by many people, was considered better than average by European standards on this question?
您认为为什么在 19 世纪末，德国的反犹太主义重新抬头？曾有一段时间，至少在许多人看来，在这个问题上，按照欧洲标准，德国的反犹太主义比平均水平要好？
Maybe that was an illusion, but something strange seems to happen, right?
也许那是幻觉，但似乎发生了一些奇怪的事情，对吗？
I don’t know that it was in the 19th century, Tyler.
我不知道那是在 19 世纪，泰勒。
I think it was much more in the early 20th century after the end of World War I.
我认为在第一次世界大战结束后的 20 世纪初，这种情况要严重得多。
I think antisemitism in the late 19th century, with the Dreyfus Affair, in Western Europe, was far more prevalent in France than it was in Germany, but I think probably the influx of refugees from the East, from Russia, from Ukraine, who fled West because of the pogroms, probably didn’t help matters in late 19th- and early 20th-century Germany.
我认为 19 世纪末，西欧的德雷福斯事件，反犹太主义在法国比在德国更为盛行，但我认为，来自东方、俄罗斯、乌克兰的难民涌入，他们因大屠杀而逃离西方，可能对 19 世纪末和 20 世纪初德国的局势没有帮助。
Until Bismarck, Germany had always had very strict—like every other country under the aegis of the Roman Catholic Church—they’d had very strict prohibitions against assimilating Jews.
在俾斯麦之前，德国一直非常严格——就像罗马天主教会庇护下的其他所有国家一样——他们对同化犹太人有非常严格的禁令。
They were only permitted in Germany—and this dates back hundreds of years.
它们只在德国被允许——这可以追溯到数百年前。
It wasn’t anything to do with the late 19th century—in some places, they were only permitted to live in particular places, but there were a whole bunch of professions that weren’t available to them.
这与19世纪末无关——在某些地方，他们只被允许居住在特定的地方，但有一大堆职业是他们无法从事的。
They were tolerated as itinerants, as peddlers, as cattle dealers, as merchants.
他们作为流动者、小贩、牛贩子和商人而被容忍。
Then, obviously, there were a few who became the favorite so-called court Jews, who helped the various monarchs throughout Germany with their military undertakings, and helped finance various other exploits, but they were in a very, very small minority, but Jews in Germany as for Jews elsewhere, had always lived on the outside.
然后，显然，有一些人成为了最受欢迎的所谓宫廷犹太人，他们帮助德国各地的各个君主进行军事事业，并帮助资助各种其他功绩，但他们只是极少数，但德国的犹太人和其他地方的犹太人一样，一直生活在外面。
It was Otto Bismarck who made life considerably easier for them.
奥托·俾斯麦让他们的生活变得更加轻松。
Even after that, they clearly weren’t in the mainstream.
即使在那之后，他们显然也不属于主流。
Why is there such a resurgence of antisemitism today?
为什么今天反犹太主义如此死灰复燃？
Antisemitism has a very long history.
反犹太主义有着非常悠久的历史。
It’s 2,000 years old.
它已有2000年的历史了。
I think it’s in the atmosphere of humanity, always has been, always will be.
我认为这是在人性的氛围中，一直如此，永远如此。
I’m not complaining about it.
我并没有抱怨它。
I’ve benefited vastly from being a Jew, so don’t get me wrong, I’m not whining about it or anything like that.
作为一名犹太人，我受益匪浅，所以请不要误会我的意思，我并不是在抱怨它或类似的事情。
I just think it’s a condition of the human race, and I think it flares up in societies where people feel left behind.
我只是认为这是人类的一个状况，而且我认为它会在人们感到落后的社会中爆发。
They’ve felt that they’ve got a rough deal.
他们觉得自己的交易很艰难。
Maybe it flares up too amongst people who are less well educated and for whom rabble rousers, who want to point accusatory fingers at particular people, whether they’re Haitians or Jews or Somalis, and can stir the pot by doing so.
也许它也会在那些受教育程度较低的人和煽动者中爆发，他们想要指责特定的人，无论他们是海地人、犹太人还是索马里人，并且可以通过这样做来搅局。
Clearly, social media has made it easier to spread these sorts of accusations and rumors.
显然，社交媒体使此类指控和谣言的传播变得更加容易。
I think the situation in Israel clearly has not helped.
我认为以色列的局势显然没有帮助。
This is obviously well known, and there’s this obviously amorphous border between not agreeing with the policies of the Netanyahu government, which many Jews both in Israel and outside Israel don’t agree with, and antisemitism.
这显然是众所周知的，不同意内塔尼亚胡政府的政策（以色列国内外的许多犹太人都不同意）与反犹太主义之间存在着明显的模糊界限。
That, at the moment, I think inflames things further.
目前，我认为这会进一步激怒事情。
It doesn’t help when you have the mayor of New York say he would arrest Netanyahu would Netanyahu ever set foot in Manhattan.
当纽约市长说如果内塔尼亚胡踏足曼哈顿他就会逮捕内塔尼亚胡，这并没有什么帮助。
Why are the Irish in particular so anti-Israel and sometimes antisemitic?
为什么爱尔兰人特别反以色列，有时甚至反犹太主义？
I don’t know that.
我不知道。
I just don’t know.
我只是不知道。
First of all, I don’t know whether it’s true.
首先，我不知道这是否属实。
I don’t know the stats.
我不知道统计数据。
I don’t know the data.
我不知道数据。
I would point out that the only connection between Ireland and Judaism or Israel that I know about is that the current president of Israel, his grandfather was the chief rabbi of Ireland.
我要指出的是，据我所知，爱尔兰与犹太教或以色列之间的唯一联系是以色列现任总统，他的祖父是爱尔兰的首席拉比。
There’s Leopold Bloom also in Ulysses, of course.
当然，《尤利西斯》中也有利奥波德·布鲁姆。
There is, yes.
有，是的。
Now, these days, how is it you feel when you revisit Germany?
这些天，当您重访德国时，感觉如何？
I hadn’t been to Germany for a long time.
我已经很久没去德国了。
I went last summer.
我去年夏天去过。
Oddly, I’d never been to Munich, which is where my father grew up and from which my grandparents were deported and eventually met their death and other relatives too.
奇怪的是，我从未去过慕尼黑，那是我父亲长大的地方，也是我祖父母被驱逐出境的地方，最终他们和其他亲戚也去世了。
Munich today is, on the surface, like a charming city, very beguiling, the sort of place one might want to live.
从表面上看，今天的慕尼黑就像一座迷人的城市，非常迷人，是一种人们可能想居住的地方。
Then, obviously, every corner has a particular history in Munich, as it does in many European cities.
显然，慕尼黑的每个角落都有特定的历史，就像许多欧洲城市一样。
Last summer I went to—I don’t know who the architect was, I forget—the extremely moving building that is the new synagogue in Munich.
去年夏天，我去了——我不知道建筑师是谁，我忘了——那座极其感人的建筑，就是慕尼黑的新犹太教堂。
I actually never go into a synagogue but I had been curious about attending a service there.
事实上我从来没有去过犹太教堂，但我一直对参加那里的仪式感到好奇。
I tried to get into the synagogue, but because I hadn’t filled out application forms, because the security was so tight, because the police were all around it, and because I didn’t have the documentation to really prove who I was and hadn’t had authorization to be admitted, I couldn’t get into the synagogue.
我试图进入犹太教堂，但因为我没有填写申请表，因为安全太严密，因为警察在周围，因为我没有真正证明我是谁的文件，也没有获得许可进入犹太教堂，所以我无法进入犹太教堂。
Then I went to Dachau, which is not very far from the center of Munich, which is where several relatives of mine had been sent.
然后我去了距离慕尼黑市中心不远的达豪，我的几个亲戚被送到那里。
I did what tourists do and went around it.
我做了游客所做的事情并绕过了它。
Beyond obviously being very aware of the history of it, the one emotion it stirred up was when I was standing in a gas chamber.
除了显然非常了解它的历史之外，它激起的一种情绪是当我站在毒气室时。
It was a gas chamber with multiple ovens, and it was spotless, really, really clean.
这是一个毒气室，有多个烤箱，一尘不染，非常非常干净。
Everything was spotless.
一切都一尘不染。
There were these high school students who were obviously bored out of their minds on their iPhones in there and with their AirPod earplugs in.
这些高中生显然对戴着 AirPod 耳塞的 iPhone 感到无聊得发疯。
I just stood there for a moment, shutting my eyes, wondering what the heat was like, what the smell was like, what the screams were like, what the work was like, what the stench was like.
我只是在那里站了一会儿，闭上眼睛，想知道热量是什么样的，气味是什么样的，尖叫声是什么样的，工作是什么样的，恶臭是什么样的。
That could have been a million years ago, but that was the one place that really struck me, the vast difference between the scene that I visited and the scene as it was in the early 1940s.
那可能是一百万年前的事了，但那是真正让我印象深刻的地方，我参观的场景与 20 世纪 40 年代初的场景之间存在巨大差异。
The media report you’re applying for German citizenship?
媒体报道您正在申请德国公民身份？
I actually have it.
我确实有。
I’ve received it.
我收到了。
You have it?
你有吗？
Congratulations.
恭喜。
Where in Germany do you feel most at home?
在德国哪里让您最有宾至如归的感觉？
Munich?
慕尼黑？
I’m not sure that I feel at home in Germany.
我不确定在德国是否有宾至如归的感觉。
People have asked, why did I apply for German citizenship?
人们问，我为什么要申请德国国籍？
Do I expect to be driven out of the United States?
我会被赶出美国吗？
I have British nationality as well.
我也有英国国籍。
No, I don’t.
不，我不。
Do I expect to be made to feel extraordinarily unwelcome and threatened and terribly frightened in San Francisco?
我是否期望在旧金山感到非常不受欢迎、受到威胁和极度恐惧？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
Do I envisage a time where I would be living in Munich?
我是否想过有一天我会住在慕尼黑？
No.
不。
The one lesson that I took from working on my book was you can never have enough passports.
我从写这本书中学到的一个教训是，你永远不会有足够的护照。
The reason that I applied was, both in Western Europe and also including the United States, the one place where the history of the ’20s and ’30s and the Holocaust is really drummed into a population is in Germany.
我申请的原因是，在西欧，也包括美国，真正向人们灌输20世纪20年代和30年代历史以及大屠杀的地方是德国。
Doesn’t happen in France, doesn’t happen in England or Wales, doesn’t happen in the United States.
这不会发生在法国，不会发生在英格兰或威尔士，也不会发生在美国。
On stumbling into venture capital
论误入风险投资
Other than a lot of history and, of course, detail, at the philosophical level, what else do you feel you learned writing this book?
除了大量的历史，当然还有哲学层面的细节之外，你觉得在写这本书的过程中你还学到了什么？
More passports?
更多护照？
What else?
还有什么？
Oh, one more.
哦，再来一张。
Yes, on a philosophical level, I’m not a philosopher, so I don’t really know what you mean.
是的，在哲学层面上，我不是哲学家，所以我不太明白你的意思。
Every venture capitalist is a philosopher, in my view.
在我看来，每个风险投资家都是哲学家。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
You have a theory of how the world will be and a theory of what makes people successful, however implicit.
你有一个关于世界将如何发展的理论，以及一个关于什么使人们成功的理论，无论多么含蓄。
You couldn’t have written your Alex Ferguson book if you were not in some way a philosopher.
如果你在某种程度上不是一位哲学家，你就不可能写出亚历克斯·弗格森的书。
It’s about successful organizations, sustainability, how irascibility can sometimes make you a better mentor.
这是关于成功的组织、可持续发展，以及脾气暴躁有时如何让你成为更好的导师。
I think of philosophers as being people like the great thinkers of the past, Aristotle, Cicero.
我认为哲学家就像过去伟大的思想家，亚里士多德，西塞罗一样。
I don’t think of writing a book about leadership as being particularly philosophical.
我不认为写一本关于领导力的书特别有哲理。
It’s a summation of observations and lessons.
这是观察和教训的总结。
As I said, I’m no student of philosophy.
正如我所说，我不是哲学学生。
They wrote about exile, right, and having to leave?
他们写的是流亡，对吧，还有不得不离开？
Yes, they did, they did.
是的，他们做到了，他们做到了。
I think the thing I learned most from writing the book was it educated me on how I became what I became, the forces that shaped me, the influences of my parents, the influences of the milieu in which I grew up.
我认为我从写这本书中学到最多的东西是它教会了我如何成为现在的我，塑造我的力量，我父母的影响，以及我成长环境的影响。
All of that shaped who I am, and I understood that a lot better after I finished working on the book.
所有这些都塑造了我是谁，在完成这本书后我对这一点有了更好的理解。
In your life, how exactly is it that you moved from being a journalist to being a very successful venture capitalist?
在您的生活中，您是如何从一名记者转变为一名非常成功的风险投资家的？
There was no plan.
没有计划。
It was great good fortune.
这真是天大的好运。
I had wound up working in the San Francisco bureau for Time Magazine.
我最终在《时代》杂志旧金山分社工作。
I worked for Time Magazine for a few years at the beginning of my professional life.
在我职业生涯的初期，我在《时代》杂志工作了几年。
When I moved to San Francisco, I really didn’t know anything about Silicon Valley.
当我搬到旧金山时，我真的对硅谷一无所知。
I didn’t know anything about the tech industry or the tech business.
我对科技行业或科技业务一无所知。
Obviously, it was a lot different and smaller then than it is today.
显然，当时的情况与今天相比有很大不同，而且规模也较小。
Although I was supposed to write about all sorts of different topics, because the bureau in San Francisco covered pretty much everything from, believe it or not, Alaska down to Santa Barbara, the thing that I got attracted by was Silicon Valley.
尽管我应该写各种各样不同的主题，因为旧金山的分社几乎涵盖了从阿拉斯加到圣巴巴拉（不管你信不信）的所有内容，但吸引我的是硅谷。
There were no technology companies in 1981, ’82 in San Francisco unless you count Charles Schwab, who had set up his discount brokerage there.
1981 年、82 年旧金山还没有科技公司，除非你算上查尔斯·施瓦布 (Charles Schwab)，他在那里开设了折扣经纪公司。
I got really interested in writing about these companies, and they were really, really small.
我对写这些公司非常感兴趣，而且它们真的很小。
You mentioned earlier that I had written a book about Apple.
你之前提到我写了一本关于苹果的书。
I had got to know Apple fairly well, but at the time it went public, it had sold about 100,000 computers, 150,000 computers.
我对苹果公司已经相当了解了，但是在它上市的时候，它已经售出了大约10万台、15万台电脑。
It was really tiny, but I then got introduced through writing about these companies—Atari, Apple, Microsoft, Oracle, others.
它真的很小，但后来我通过写有关这些公司的文章而被介绍——雅达利、苹果、微软、甲骨文等等。
I’d never met anybody in Wales.
我在威尔士从未见过任何人。
I’d never conceived of the idea that anyone would start a company, let alone anybody who is 18 or 20 years old.
我从来没有想过有人会创办一家公司，更不用说 18 岁或 20 岁的人了。
Then I began to understand how some of the mechanics worked, and I couldn’t start a company.
然后我开始了解一些机制是如何工作的，但我无法创办一家公司。
I joined a company, but it was a little publishing company that didn’t require any technical skill or computer science background or electrical engineering or semiconductor know-how.
我加入了一家公司，但那是一家小型出版公司，不需要任何技术技能、计算机科学背景、电气工程或半导体专业知识。
I just didn’t have that sort of a background.
我只是没有那样的背景。
Through covering these individuals, I then began to understand that there were these investors who invested in their companies, so I started writing.
通过报道这些人，我开始了解到有这些投资者投资了他们的公司，所以我开始写作。
I did a few stories about the venture capital industry, and I got to meet several of the then-leaders of the industry, Tom Perkins, who started Kleiner Perkins, and then Don Valentine, who started Sequoia.
我写了一些关于风险投资行业的故事，我结识了当时该行业的几位领导者，汤姆·帕金斯（Tom Perkins），他创办了凯鹏华盈（Kleiner Perkins），然后是唐·瓦伦丁（Don Valentine），他创办了红杉资本。
I had quit Time, had cast my lot with this little publishing company that many, many years later, thanks to the co-founder, was bought by Dow Jones, but that had nothing to do with me.
我退出了《时代》杂志，把自己的命运投给了这家小出版公司，很多很多年后，多亏了联合创始人，它被道琼斯收购了，但这与我无关。
I’d left that too.
我也离开了。
I literally wrote letters back then—you couldn’t write emails—to the people who ran five venture firms, got rejected by four of them, and then I got really, really lucky and Don Valentine hired me at Sequoia.
当时我确实给经营五家风险投资公司的人写了信——你不能写电子邮件，但被其中四家拒绝了，然后我真的非常非常幸运，唐·瓦伦丁在红杉资本雇用了我。
I think when some of his peers heard that he’d hired a history major who’d been a journalist who didn’t have an answer of technical acumen, never worked for a Silicon Valley company, they thought he’d lost his mind.
我想，当他的一些同事听说他聘请了一位历史专业的学生时，他曾是一名记者，没有技术头脑，也从未在硅谷公司工作过，他们认为他疯了。
Why not publish your book on Don Valentine?
为什么不出版你关于唐·瓦伦丁的书呢？
Rumor has it there are only a few copies in your Tuscany hotel.
有传言说，托斯卡纳的酒店里只有几本。
It’s not really a book.
这实际上不是一本书。
It’s a fairly long profile of not just about Don, it’s about the early venture industry.
这是一篇相当长的简介，不仅涉及唐，还涉及早期风险投资行业。
Many people would love to read it, right?
很多人都想读，对吧？
That’s kind of you to say that.
你这么说真是太好了。
I’m not sure that there’s enough in there to merit a book.
我不确定里面的内容是否值得写一本书。
What do most people get wrong about Steve Jobs?
大多数人对史蒂夫·乔布斯有哪些误解？
Maybe what a stoic he was and the heroic manner in which he spent his last years, which I can barely imagine.
也许他是多么坚忍，他度过晚年的英勇方式，我几乎无法想象。
The fact that his native wit, his raw intelligence, the melding of an artist and a capitalist, I think those are the principal things that aren’t appreciated about him.
事实上，他与生俱来的智慧、他原始的智慧、艺术家和资本家的融合，我认为这些是他不被欣赏的主要因素。
Also, I think the education he received during his years in the wilderness after he got cast out of Apple.
另外，我认为他被苹果赶出后在荒野中接受的教育。
On obsessives and dilettantes
关于强迫症患者和业余爱好者
If we think of your interest in Steve Jobs, your book on Alex Ferguson, the art you buy, that you’ve now written a book on the Holocaust, is there some general pattern where trying to come to terms with really difficult things, is this a recurring theme in your life?
如果我们想到你对史蒂夫·乔布斯的兴趣，你关于亚历克斯·弗格森的书，你购买的艺术品，你现在写了一本关于大屠杀的书，是否有一些普遍的模式试图接受真正困难的事情，这是你生活中反复出现的主题吗？
Learning how to paint, that’s very hard, right?
学画画，很难吧？
I haven’t really thought about it that way, but I think life is made richer by having a challenge that you’re not sure whether you’re up to conquering.
我并没有真正这么想过，但我认为，如果你不确定自己是否能够克服挑战，那么生活就会变得更加丰富。
I’ve always been up for that.
我一直都愿意这么做。
Each of these books has really just sprung out of being curious about something.
这些书中的每一本书实际上都是出于对某些事物的好奇而产生的。
I’m not sure that there’s any greater pattern than unsatisfied curiosity.
我不确定还有什么比未满足的好奇心更重要的模式。
I love Otto Dix, but most people don’t like Otto Dix.
我喜欢奥托·迪克斯，但大多数人不喜欢奥托·迪克斯。
Let me know the next time you come to San Francisco.
下次你来旧金山时请告诉我。
Great.
伟大的。
You’ve got to come, and I’d be very happy to show you what we live with—
你一定要来，我很乐意向你展示我们的生活——
I’d be delighted to see it.
我很高兴看到它。
—that other people wouldn’t want to live with.
——其他人不愿意与之一起生活。
I love Lucian Freud as well, the greatest painter of flesh ever, perhaps, right?
我也喜欢卢西恩·弗洛伊德，他也许是有史以来最伟大的肉体画家，对吧？
Certainly in the 20th century.
当然是在20世纪。
Yes, maybe Rubens, you could say.
是的，也许是鲁本斯，你可以说。
No doubt.
无疑。
No doubt.
无疑。
You have Frank Auerbach also?
你还有弗兰克·奥尔巴赫吗？
Oh, yes, big Frank fan, huge.
哦，是的，弗兰克的大粉丝，巨大的。
Underrated in the United States, right?
在美国被低估了，对吗？
Yes, but he’s having a show at the Metropolitan, I think it’s in two years, in New York.
是的，但他要在纽约大都会艺术博物馆举办一场演出，我想是两年后的事了。
I will go.
我要走了。
Oh, spectacular artist.
噢，了不起的艺术家。
I met Frank on several occasions.
我曾多次见过弗兰克。
In a way, you were asking about Steve Jobs a few minutes ago.
在某种程度上，你几分钟前就在问史蒂夫·乔布斯。
Steve, I think most great entrepreneurs, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, were obsessives.
史蒂夫，我认为大多数伟大的企业家，比尔盖茨，埃隆马斯克，都是痴迷者。
Frank Auerbach carried his obsession to new heights.
弗兰克·奥尔巴赫 (Frank Auerbach) 将他的痴迷推向了新的高度。
He painted every day of the year, save for one, which was Christmas Day, when he treated himself to a day off and went to Brighton to go to the Brighton Pier on Christmas Day.
他一年中的每一天都画画，除了圣诞节，他给自己放了一天假，在圣诞节那天前往布莱顿去布莱顿码头。
Then later in life, he decided that, actually, the one day he was taking off was stealing time from painting, so he abandoned his trips to Brighton.
后来，在后来的生活中，他发现实际上他离开的那一天是在偷画时间，所以他放弃了布莱顿之行。
There’s an obsessive for you.
有一个对你着迷的人。
How would you describe your greatest obsession?
你会如何描述你最大的痴迷？
I’m more of a dilettante than an obsessive because I’ve got too many interests.
我更像是一个业余爱好者而不是一个痴迷者，因为我有太多的兴趣。
This isn’t false modesty on my part.
我这并不是虚伪的谦虚。
It really isn’t.
事实并非如此。
I just think each of these pursuits that I dabble in, each of them I could do a lot better.
我只是认为我涉足的每一项追求，每一项我都可以做得更好。
That could be an obsession too, what you call dabbling in different pursuits?
这也可能是一种痴迷，你称之为涉足不同的追求？
Yes, or satisfying curiosity.
是的，或者满足好奇心。
What is it you feel you saw early in China?
您觉得早期在中国看到了什么？
Many people thought China would grow, but the notion that you could invest there and actually get a profit was arguably the better, more important insight.
许多人认为中国会增长，但你可以在那里投资并实际获得利润的想法可以说是更好、更重要的见解。
Around what corner did you see to grasp that?
您在哪个角落看到了这一点？
I think it was a collective effort at Sequoia.
我认为这是红杉资本的集体努力。
It wasn’t just me.
不仅仅是我。
I think it was going to visit China and meet people, see what was happening with your own eyes.
我认为它将访问中国并与人们见面，亲眼看看发生了什么。
I’ve been to Hong Kong before, but I hadn’t been to the mainland.
我以前去过香港，但没去过大陆。
Going to the mainland, where so many preconceptions were washed away, and gradually beginning to understand, or understanding fairly quickly, that if you wanted a country where capitalism was ablaze in the early 21st century, really ablaze, it wasn’t in the US, it was in China, despite what everybody says about the Communist Party and state control.
去了大陆，很多先入为主的观念都被冲走了，逐渐开始理解，或者说很快理解，如果你想要一个资本主义在21世纪初熊熊燃烧的国家，真正熊熊燃烧的国家，那不是在美国，而是在中国，尽管每个人都在谈论共产党和国家控制。
It was a country where there was a very skimpy, if nonexistent, social safety net and where people had to live or die by either the strength of their education or their wits.
在这个国家，社会安全网即使根本不存在，也非常薄弱，人们的生死要么取决于他们的教育程度，要么取决于他们的智慧。
Then as the years went by and I got better educated about China, having a far keener appreciation of the strengths of the country as it came to grips with what technology had to offer, Sequoia flourished.
随着时间的推移，我对中国有了更好的了解，在掌握技术所提供的东西时，对这个国家的优势有了更加敏锐的认识，红杉蓬勃发展。
And I think it was one of the better decisions that we made for close to two decades in China, where it was possible to invest in pretty much anything anybody wanted to invest in any industry.
我认为这是我们近二十年来在中国做出的更好的决定之一，在那里几乎可以投资任何人想投资的任何行业。
It’s tightened up a lot, obviously, in the last few years, and so the atmosphere and circumstances are different.
显然，在过去几年里，情况变得更加紧张，因此气氛和情况有所不同。
On supporting the Booker Prize
关于支持布克奖
Through Crankstart, you’ve been supporting the Booker Prize.
通过 Crankstart，您一直在支持布克奖。
What have you learned doing that?
这样做你学到了什么？
Oh, how little I know about literature.
唉，我对文学知之甚少。
I don’t read all of the submissions, obviously, and I have nothing to do with the judging of the prize whatsoever.
显然，我没有阅读所有提交的材料，而且我与该奖项的评审无关。
It’s as big a mystery to me as it is to everybody else.
这对我和其他人来说都是一个很大的谜。
I enjoy the challenge of going through the 12 shortlisted books that come out in the summer or the books for the International Booker Prize, because they just open your eyes new authors, countries perhaps that you don’t know very much about, circumstances that you don’t know too much about.
我喜欢阅读夏季出版的 12 部入围书籍或国际布克奖书籍的挑战，因为它们会让你大开眼界，了解新作者、你可能不太了解的国家、你不太了解的情况。
I try to maintain a balance of reading fiction and nonfiction, so the Booker keeps me honest.
我努力保持阅读小说和非小说的平衡，所以布克让我保持诚实。
Does it feel to you like fiction is in a pretty good place right now?
你觉得小说现在处于一个很好的位置吗？
I argue this to my friends.
我向我的朋友们争论这一点。
They’re often skeptical, but if I think about Ferrante, Knausgård, the Sonia and Sunny book, Houellebecq, Cărtărescu, I think there’s a lot of great works just in the last 10 years.
他们常常持怀疑态度，但如果我想到费兰特、克瑙斯加德、索尼娅和桑尼的书、维勒贝克、卡塔雷斯库，我认为在过去的十年里有很多伟大的作品。
Yes.
是的。
Oh, I would completely agree.
哦，我完全同意。
Douglas Stuart’s one of my favorite authors as well.
道格拉斯·斯图尔特也是我最喜欢的作家之一。
Storytelling, despite what everybody says about AI, great storytelling is never going to go out of style, and it begins with words on paper.
讲故事，尽管每个人都对人工智能有不同的看法，但精彩的讲故事永远不会过时，而且它是从纸上的文字开始的。
On improving San Francisco's nonprofits
关于改善旧金山的非营利组织
How would you improve the San Francisco nonprofit community?
您将如何改善旧金山的非营利社区？
There’s a lot of money.
有很多钱。
There’s going to be a lot more money.
将会有更多的钱。
There aren’t that many talented people to run nonprofits.
没有那么多有才华的人来经营非营利组织。
Is the whole thing just a mess?
整个事情只是一团糟吗？
Is it doomed?
这是注定的吗？
Will it succeed?
会成功吗？
I think two things.
我认为有两件事。
One, it’d be great to have more people in San Francisco interested in contributing in some fashion.
第一，如果旧金山有更多人有兴趣为时尚做出贡献，那就太好了。
The second is, I think, having people from the for-profit world operating philanthropies is very helpful and sets a different performance standard.
我认为第二个是，让来自营利性世界的人经营慈善事业非常有帮助，并设定了不同的绩效标准。
Missy Narula, who’s the wonderful CEO of Crankstart, her background before she joined us five years ago was TPG and Bain.
Missy Narula 是 Crankstart 出色的首席执行官，五年前加入我们之前，她的背景是 TPG 和 Bain。
It wasn’t in the not-for-profit world.
它不是在非营利世界。
She has this wonderful ability to straddle both worlds.
她拥有跨越两个世界的奇妙能力。
She has the sensibility of a person who cares deeply about others and those who are left behind.
她具有一种深切关心他人和落后者的情感。
Also, the need for performance that comes out of having spent many years in the for-profit world.
此外，对绩效的需求源于在营利性世界中工作多年。
I think it’s very easy for people to point fingers at philanthropies or not-for-profit services and say that they can be run more effectively.
我认为人们很容易指责慈善事业或非营利服务，并说它们可以更有效地运营。
I think that’s probably true for lots of them, but you can say the same for many companies as well.
我认为这对很多公司来说可能都是如此，但你也可以对许多公司说同样的话。
What you try to do, I think, is set a standard and be the best.
我认为，你要做的就是设定一个标准并成为最好的。
Also, knowing that some of the things that you’re going to try in philanthropy, just like in business, are not going to work.
此外，要知道你在慈善事业中尝试的一些事情，就像在商业中一样，是行不通的。
Harriet and I have been so fortunate.
哈丽特和我非常幸运。
It really is our job to try and help others who just haven’t had the good luck and fortune and circumstances that we’ve both had.
我们的工作确实是尝试帮助那些没有我们所拥有的好运气、财富和环境的人。
There’s a great history of the arts in San Francisco: the Beat Poets, Wayne Thiebaud, Jefferson Airplane, Grateful Dead, one could go on and on.
旧金山有着悠久的艺术历史：垮掉派诗人、韦恩·蒂博、杰斐逊飞机、感恩至死，等等。
Are the next 30 or 40 years going to look like that, or is everyone just priced out?
未来 30 年或 40 年会是这样吗？还是所有人都已经被定价过高了？
Maybe they’ll live in Fresno and have a patron in San Francisco.
也许他们会住在弗雷斯诺并在旧金山有一个赞助人。
I think that’s quite possible.
我认为这很有可能。
Look, we’re working very hard.
你看，我们工作得很努力。
Daniel Lurie, the wonderful mayor of the city, is working very hard to make it far easier to build housing.
丹尼尔·卢里（Daniel Lurie）是一位出色的市长，他正在努力让建造住房变得更加容易。
If you can’t build housing, and if developers and people who want to put up new houses are left in a straitjacket, people are going to be priced out of the city, no doubt about it.
如果你不能建造住房，如果开发商和想要盖新房的人被困在紧身衣里，毫无疑问，人们将被高价赶出这座城市。
I think most people are already priced out of the city, the same as they’ve been priced out of Manhattan.
我认为大多数人已经被高房价赶出了这座城市，就像他们被高房价赶出了曼哈顿一样。
Artists have always needed to go to places where they can afford to live.
艺术家总是需要去他们能负担得起生活的地方。
I noticed that there was a piece in the New York Times over the weekend about Syracuse, New York, being a great haven for writers.
我注意到周末《纽约时报》上有一篇文章称纽约州锡拉丘兹是作家的天堂。
Part of the reason being that it was affordable and rents were low compared to New York City and Boston.
部分原因是与纽约市和波士顿相比，它的价格实惠且租金较低。
Look, housing is a huge problem throughout the country.
看，住房在全国都是一个大问题。
Housing is, I think, the biggest issue in California, and it’s an acute issue in San Francisco.
我认为，住房是加州最大的问题，也是旧金山的一个严重问题。
On controlling your own calendar
关于控制自己的日历
Now, your book starts with an anecdote where about 20 years ago, you were diagnosed with what is supposedly an incurable blood cancer, and yet here you are alive and kicking and just finished a book.
现在，你的书以一则轶事开始，大约 20 年前，你被诊断出患有据说无法治愈的血癌，但在这里你却活蹦乱跳，刚刚读完一本书。
How did it change how you allocate your time over the last 20 years?
过去 20 年里，你分配时间的方式发生了怎样的变化？
It’s at least some level of uncertainty, right?
至少有一定程度的不确定性，对吧？
It made me want to control my own calendar rather than have others control my calendar.
这让我想要控制自己的日历，而不是让别人控制我的日历。
Was that good for your efficiency or just good for your happiness?
这对你的效率有好处还是仅仅对你的幸福有好处？
I think more for my contentment.
我想更多的是为了我的满足。
I’m not sure that I became any more efficient.
我不确定我是否变得更有效率。
Probably pretty inefficient.
可能效率很低。
I did not want to be imprisoned by obligations that only formed part of the life I wanted to lead.
我不想被那些只构成我想要的生活一部分的义务所囚禁。
How do you distinguish between true friends and others?
如何区分真正的朋友和其他人？
I think it’s the ones you want around your deathbed.
我认为这是你临终时想要的。
How do you know which ones they are, other than family?
除了家人之外，你怎么知道他们是谁？
Oh, there are very few of them.
哦，这样的人很少。
Through life, I think it’s very difficult to have deep relationships with a lot of people.
在一生中，我认为与很多人建立深厚的关系是非常困难的。
It’s just very hard because it’s built on history, it’s built on the wavelengths missing, it’s built on shared experiences, and there’s just not enough time to do that with lots of people.
这非常困难，因为它建立在历史之上，建立在缺失的波长之上，建立在共享经验之上，而没有足够的时间与很多人一起做这件事。
On why Britain is stuck
关于英国为何陷入困境
Why does the United Kingdom seem to be so stuck now economically, politically, otherwise?
为什么英国现在在经济、政治或其他方面似乎陷入困境？
In its most fundamental terms, what has gone wrong there?
从最基本的角度来说，那里出了什么问题？
There’s a lot of particular mistakes they’ve made, but why so much correlation in the mistakes?
他们犯了很多特殊的错误，但为什么这些错误之间有如此多的相关性？
I think it’s the residue of the arrogance of empire.
我认为这是帝国傲慢的残余。
Obviously, it’s the mantle.
显然，这是地幔。
The pound sterling was the reserve currency 100 years ago or so and the world’s reserve currency.
大约100年前，英镑是储备货币，也是世界储备货币。
Britain had the world’s largest navy, obviously had, for better or worse, its tentacles all over the world, and it was the world power.
英国拥有世界上最大的海军，无论好坏，它的触角显然遍布世界各地，它是世界强国。
Then the mantle was lost to an entrepreneurial country.
然后，这个衣钵就被一个创业型国家夺走了。
I don’t think Britain has ever recovered from the loss of the position of primacy.
我认为英国还没有从失去首要地位的阴影中恢复过来。
Everything, since then, has been a somewhat feeble, muted reaction to it, and where—and there’s a new prime minister who was appointed very recently, obviously—you’ve had these cycles where government is all the answer, and then certainly under the Thatcher years, and later to a lesser extent, under Blair and Gordon Brown and David Cameron, years where government wasn’t seen as the answer.
从那时起，一切都对它做出了某种微弱、沉默的反应，而且——显然，最近任命了一位新首相——你经历过这样的周期：政府就是所有的答案，然后肯定是在撒切尔时代，后来在较小程度上，在布莱尔、戈登·布朗和大卫·卡梅伦的统治下，政府不被视为答案。
It’s sad to watch, it’s sad to witness, but I think Britain overall has suffered from too much government.
目睹这一切令人悲伤，目睹这一切令人悲伤，但我认为英国整体上都受到了太多政府的影响。
On what comes next
关于接下来会发生什么
Before my last question, just to promote your book again, Ausländer: One Family’s Story of Escape and Exile.
在我提出最后一个问题之前，我想再次宣传你的书《Ausländer：一个家庭的逃亡与流放的故事》。
I very much enjoyed reading it.
我非常喜欢读它。
Final question, what is it you wish to learn about next?
最后一个问题，接下来你想了解什么？
Iran.
伊朗。
How will you do that?
你会怎么做？
It’s hard to go there, right?
去那里很难，对吧？
I am not talking about contemporary Iran.
我不是在谈论当代伊朗。
I’m talking about Iran—I don’t know whether or not I’ll go ahead and do it, but I’ve been reading a lot about it recently—circa 1900, 1890 to 1960, 1970.
我说的是伊朗——我不知道我是否会继续这样做，但我最近读了很多关于它的文章——大约从 1900 年、1890 年到 1960 年、1970 年。
The constitutional liberal era, like 1908, 1911.
宪政自由主义时代，如1908年、1911年。
I’m so curious as to what it was actually like back then.
我很好奇当时的情况到底是什么样的。
Yes.
是的。
I do not pretend to a great degree of deep knowledge about it, but I am extremely curious because I think so many of the issues that we confront today stem back to that period and to what happened in the early 1950s.
我并不假装对此有很深的了解，但我非常好奇，因为我认为我们今天面临的许多问题都可以追溯到那个时期以及 20 世纪 50 年代初发生的事情。
Michael Moritz, thank you very much.
迈克尔·莫里茨，非常感谢你。
It’s been a real pleasure.
这真是一种乐趣。
Tyler, you’ve been extremely generous, and your questions were just wonderful.
泰勒，你非常慷慨，你的问题也很精彩。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Much appreciated.
非常感谢。