M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia (Ep. 73)
I’m honored tonight to be here with M.
今晚我很荣幸能和 M 一起来到这里。
Gessen, who is one of America’s most influential public intellectuals, also one of Russia’s most influential.
格森是美国最有影响力的公共知识分子之一，也是俄罗斯最有影响力的公共知识分子之一。
M is a very regular columnist for the New Yorker, as you all probably know.
大家可能都知道，M 是《纽约客》的常客专栏作家。
They have written many books on all kinds of topics, including Soviet mathematics, Putin, their grandmother’s genetic screening, and just about anything else you might find interesting.
他们写了很多关于各种主题的书籍，包括苏联数学、普京、他们祖母的基因筛查，以及任何你可能感兴趣的东西。
M is a true polymath and extremely impressive to all of those who know them.
M 是一位真正的博学者，对所有认识他们的人来说都印象深刻。
M, welcome.
米，欢迎。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
We just dive right in.
我们直接潜入。
Okay.
好的。
Obviously, the first question: why was Soviet mathematics so good?
显然，第一个问题是：为什么苏联数学这么好？
Soviet mathematics was particularly good in the second half of the 20th century, basically because of the arms race, because the Soviet Union realized .
苏联的数学在20世纪下半叶特别好，主要是因为军备竞赛，因为苏联意识到了。
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World War II created the conditions for the Soviet Union to become a superpower.
第二次世界大战为苏联成为超级大国创造了条件。
They realized very quickly that the way to make that happen was to develop weapons technology.
他们很快意识到实现这一目标的方法是发展武器技术。
So there was a huge organizing and recruitment effort around the country to find kids who particularly have a math aptitude.
因此，全国范围内开展了大量的组织和招募活动，以寻找特别具有数学天赋的孩子。
Yank them out of wherever they were living; put them in specialized boarding schools or specialized schools in their city if they lived in a big city.
把他们从他们居住的地方拽出来；如果他们居住在大城市，则将他们安排在所在城市的专门寄宿学校或专门学校。
Give them an elite mathematics education — actually a broad education but with a focus in mathematics.
为他们提供精英数学教育——实际上是广泛的教育，但重点是数学。
Put them through excellent colleges and then create conditions in science towns for them to live.
让他们考上优秀的大学，然后在科学小镇为他们创造生活条件。
They were truly privileged and lived in these incubator conditions.
他们确实享有特权并生活在这些孵化器条件下。
It was amazing because it was really the only area in the Soviet Union where intellectualism was prized and privileged.
这是令人惊奇的，因为它确实是苏联唯一一个重视理智主义并享有特权的地区。
It drew probably a broader range of people than just kids who are interested in mathematics.
它可能吸引了更广泛的人群，而不仅仅是对数学感兴趣的孩子。
Was the Soviet system of math competitions useful?
苏联的数学竞赛制度有用吗？
There’s some debate about that.
对此存在一些争论。
The Soviets were certainly extremely good at math competitions, both in the country and internationally.
苏联人在国内和国际数学竞赛中无疑表现得非常出色。
It’s been many years since I wrote about this, so I can’t now remember the statistics, but basically, they were always either winners of the International Math Olympiad or somewhere in the top three.
我写这篇文章已经很多年了，所以我现在不记得统计数据了，但基本上，他们总是要么是国际数学奥林匹克竞赛的获胜者，要么是前三名。
It was a great feeder system for the weapons industry, but you didn’t see a whole lot of research mathematicians come out of the math competition system.
对于武器工业来说，这是一个很好的供给系统，但你没有看到很多研究数学家从数学竞赛系统中脱颖而出。
They seem pretty much in parallel tracks.
他们看起来几乎是平行的。
What about the emphasis on physical training and athleticism and just being in great shape?
是否强调身体训练和运动能力以及保持良好的体形呢？
Magnus Carlsen does that in chess.
马格努斯·卡尔森在国际象棋中就是这么做的。
Does it matter for math?
对数学重要吗？
It was part of the system.
它是系统的一部分。
Whether it matters for math, we don’t know.
这对数学是否重要，我们不知道。
But we know that the extraordinary Soviet mathematician Andrey Kolmogorov, who designed the Soviet mathematics education system — he had this idea that it had to be what he imagined Greek schools to have been like.
但我们知道，苏联数学教育体系的设计者、杰出的苏联数学家安德烈·科尔莫戈洛夫（Andrey Kolmogorov）认为，希腊学校必须像他想象的那样。
He felt that a good literary education, a high level of physical culture, and mathematics were the keys to success.
他认为良好的文学教育、高水平的体育文化和数学是成功的关键。
Why is it that so many dissidents came from the Soviet worlds of math and physics?
为什么有这么多持不同政见者来自苏联的数学和物理界？
There seems to be a correlation.
似乎存在相关性。
What’s causing what?
是什么原因造成的？
I don’t know the answer.
我不知道答案。
I can tell you my personal hypothesis.
我可以告诉你我个人的假设。
My hypothesis is that for people who are both trained and inclined to think in rigorously logical ways, it is particularly difficult to adapt to the Soviet system of doublethink.
我的假设是，对于那些受过训练并且倾向于以严格的逻辑方式思考的人来说，适应苏联的双重思维体系尤其困难。
When we talk about this inclination now, I think we talk about people being spectrum-y or being neurologically different and, therefore, having difficulty with the illogical, irrational ways of life.
当我们现在谈论这种倾向时，我认为我们谈论的是人们的谱系或神经学上的不同，因此，他们难以适应不合逻辑、非理性的生活方式。
But I think we can retroactively diagnose a lot of dissonance with that because, basically, what we’re talking about is, there is the conditions of not just survival but of being reasonably comfortable while living in the Soviet Union were the conditions of doublethink.
但我认为我们可以追溯性地诊断出很多不一致的地方，因为基本上，我们所讨论的是，在苏联生活时不仅存在生存条件，而且还存在相当舒适的条件，这些条件都是双重思想的条件。
You had to be able to live inside untenable contradictions all the time.
你必须能够一直生活在无法维持的矛盾之中。
The opposite option was to confront those contradictions, but to basically be thrown out of society, to be in extreme discomfort.
相反的选择是面对这些矛盾，但基本上被赶出社会，处于极度不适之中。
Think about the type of person who would prefer the discomfort of being completely ostracized to the discomfort of living inside the tension.
想一想什么样的人会更喜欢被完全排斥的不适，而不是生活在紧张之中的不适。
I think that that goes some way to explaining why so many people came from math and physics and the exact sciences.
我认为这在某种程度上解释了为什么这么多人来自数学、物理和精确科学。
These days, when I look at Greta Thunberg, who I was actually, I’m pretty sure, the first American journalist to interview her — the now 16-year-old Swedish girl who went on school strike and has started this worldwide climate change movement.
这些天，当我看到格蕾塔·桑伯格时，我很确定，我实际上是第一个采访她的美国记者——这位现年 16 岁的瑞典女孩，参加了学校罢课，并发起了这场全球气候变化运动。
She is diagnosed with autism, and she’s very, very clear about talking about how intolerable she finds life with the way that adults are not acting rationally in the face of climate change and how, for her, it is an absolute necessity to confront it.
她被诊断出患有自闭症，她非常非常清楚地谈论成年人在面对气候变化时不理性行事的方式，她觉得生活是多么难以忍受，以及对她来说，面对气候变化是绝对必要的。
I really recognized that spirit of Soviet dissonance.
我确实认识到苏联那种不和谐的精神。
You’ve written a biography of Grigori Perelman.
您写了一本格里戈里·佩雷尔曼的传记。
At some point early on, before he was famous, he tried to get a job at Princeton by basically just demanding one.
在他成名之前的早期某个时候，他试图通过基本上只是要求一份工作来在普林斯顿大学找到一份工作。
Would it have been good for his career as a mathematician to have gotten that job?
获得这份工作对他作为数学家的职业生涯有好处吗？
Let’s say they’d given him tenure: “Do whatever you want.” Good for him?
假设他们给了他终身职位：“做你想做的事。”对他有好处吗？
Bad for him?
对他不好？
Well, we don’t know.
好吧，我们不知道。
There’s little evidence that he would have enjoyed teaching.
几乎没有证据表明他会喜欢教学。
Basically, the conditions that allowed him to .
基本上，条件允许了。
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For those who don’t know — I assume everybody knows who Grigori Perelman is.
对于那些不知道的人——我想每个人都知道格里戈里·佩雷尔曼是谁。
He proved the Poincaré conjecture and published his solution on arXiv on the web without any explication.
他证明了庞加莱猜想，并在网络上的 arXiv 上发布了他的解决方案，但没有任何解释。
It took three groups of mathematicians about three years each to actually delve into his proof and conclude that, yes, in fact, it worked.
三组数学家每人花了大约三年的时间才真正深入研究他的证明并得出结论：是的，事实上它是有效的。
Since then, Perelman, who turned down the million-dollar prize, has basically disappeared.
从那以后，拒绝了百万美元奖金的佩雷尔曼就基本销声匿迹了。
You don’t know what he’s doing now?
你不知道他现在在做什么？
He claims to not be doing mathematics.
他声称自己不做数学。
Last I heard, he was going to move to Sweden where his sister lives, but I haven’t had it confirmed that he moved there.
上次我听说他要搬到他姐姐住的瑞典，但我还没有确认他搬到那里了。
But the conditions that clearly allowed him to create his proof were conditions of solitude and calm in St. Petersburg.
但显然，让他能够提出证明的条件是圣彼得堡的孤独和平静的条件。
Would he have done the same thing at Princeton?
他在普林斯顿大学也会做同样的事情吗？
Would he have found those conditions?
他能找到那些条件吗？
Probably.
大概。
I don’t know that it would have made much of a difference.
我不知道这会产生很大的影响。
On Russia proper
在俄罗斯本土
I have so many questions about Russia proper.
我对俄罗斯本身有很多疑问。
Let me start with one.
让我从一个开始。
Why is it that Russians seem to purge their own friends so often?
为什么俄罗斯人似乎经常清洗自己的朋友？
The standing joke being the Russian word for “friend” is “future enemy.” There’s a sense of loyalty cycles, where you have to reach a certain bar of being loyal or otherwise you’re purged.
有一个笑话，俄语中的“朋友”是“未来的敌人”。有一种忠诚度循环的感觉，你必须达到一定的忠诚度，否则你就会被清洗。
Yeah, I don’t know that I agree with the premise of that question.
是的，我不知道我是否同意这个问题的前提。
What kind of purges are you talking about?
你在谈论什么样的清洗？
People who stop being friends with those who were previously close friends.
不再与以前的亲密朋友成为朋友的人。
Whereas Americans will drift apart and ignore each other.
而美国人却会渐行渐远，互相忽视。
Oh, I see what you’re saying.
哦，我明白你在说什么。
But there’s a discrete break in Russian friendships as I see it.
但在我看来，俄罗斯的友谊出现了微妙的破裂。
Ha, that’s interesting.
哈，这很有趣。
I don’t know that I agree, but I think that — and this may answer your question — Russian friendships are much more emotional and intense than American friendships.
我不知道我是否同意，但我认为——这可能会回答你的问题——俄罗斯的友谊比美国的友谊更加情感和强烈。
When I moved back to this country five and a half years ago, it was like this sense of whiplash because I had a lot of friends here, but I had been absent for 20 years.
五年前，当我搬回这个国家时，那种感觉就像是一种鞭打感，因为我在这里有很多朋友，但我已经缺席了 20 年。
I would get together with my friends, and then two hours later, our get-together would be over.
我会和朋友们聚在一起，两个小时后，我们的聚会就结束了。
I’m like, “Well, what was the point of that?
我想，“好吧，那有什么意义呢？
Was that just to let each other know that we still exist?” Because you don’t really get into deep conversation until about four hours in and a number of bottles of alcohol.
难道只是为了让对方知道我们还存在吗？”因为直到大约四个小时和喝了几瓶酒之后，你才能真正进行深入的交谈。
If you’re going to —
如果你打算——
We’re missing the alcohol here tonight, right?
今晚我们想念这里的酒，对吧？
We’re missing the alcohol here tonight.
今晚我们想念这里的酒精。
But if you’re going to really get down, it’s like a 3 a.m., 4 a.m.
但如果你真的要放松下来，那就像是凌晨 3 点、4 点。
proposition.
提议。
You can’t just have dinner and go home.
你不能只吃完晚饭就回家。
Then I realized this was really a way to be very productive because I could go back to work.
然后我意识到这确实是一种非常高效的方法，因为我可以回去工作。
I write at night.
我晚上写作。
I could work after seeing friends, which was amazing, but something that I have never experienced in Russia.
我可以在见朋友后工作，这真是太棒了，但这是我在俄罗斯从未经历过的。
I think that maybe that’s what you’re referring to.
我想也许这就是你所指的。
Maybe you’re just referring to the emotional intensity of Russian friendship, where it’s hard.
也许你只是指俄罗斯友谊的情感强度，这很困难。
It’s like lovers, even in this country, don’t really drift apart usually.
就像恋人一样，即使在这个国家，通常也不会真正疏远。
You have to break up.
你必须分手。
You can’t just stop calling, and go from talking every day to talking every few weeks, and then forget about each other’s existence.
你们不能就停止打电话，从每天都通话变成每隔几周通话，然后忘记对方的存在。
In Russian grade school, as I understand it, it’s often the case you sit in the same room and literally the same seats, next to the exact same people, year after year after year.
据我了解，在俄罗斯小学，经常出现的情况是，你坐在同一个房间，同样的座位，旁边是完全相同的人，年复一年。
Is that a good system or a bad system?
这是一个好系统还是一个坏系统？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I don’t know the answer.
我不知道答案。
It is true, and it’s very odd to me because my older kids were educated partly in Russia and partly here.
这是真的，这对我来说很奇怪，因为我的大孩子部分在俄罗斯接受教育，部分在这里接受教育。
My youngest son is now in elementary school here.
我最小的儿子现在在这里上小学。
I find it pretty disorienting that every year Americans reshuffle their classes and put kids in a new social situation.
我发现美国人每年都会重新调整他们的班级并将孩子们置于新的社会环境中，这非常令人迷惑。
There’s something amazing to having gone through life from the time you’re six or seven with the same people.
从六七岁起就和同样的人一起度过一生是一件令人惊奇的事情。
I think it can foster really incredible friendships.
我认为它可以培养真正令人难以置信的友谊。
It can also foster awful dynamics, obviously.
显然，它也会产生可怕的动力。
Why has Russia basically never been a free country?
为什么俄罗斯基本上从来就不是一个自由国家？
Most countries have a history of never having been free countries until they become free countries.
大多数国家都有在成为自由国家之前从未成为自由国家的历史。
But Russia has been next to some semifree countries.
但俄罗斯一直紧随一些半自由国家。
It’s a European nation, right?
这是一个欧洲国家，对吧？
It’s been a part of European intellectual life for many centuries, and yet, with the possible exception of parts of the ’90s, it seems it’s never come very close to being an ongoing democracy with some version of free speech.
几个世纪以来，它一直是欧洲知识分子生活的一部分，然而，除了 90 年代的部分时间之外，它似乎从未接近成为一个拥有某种言论自由的持续民主国家。
Why isn’t it like, say, Sweden?
为什么不像瑞典那样？
Why isn’t Russia like .
为什么俄罗斯不像。
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I tend to read Russian history a little bit differently in the sense that I don’t think it’s a continuous history of unfreedom.
我倾向于以不同的方式解读俄罗斯历史，因为我不认为这是一部连续的不自由历史。
I think that Russia was like a lot of other countries, a lot of empires, in being a tyranny up until the early 20th century.
我认为俄罗斯就像许多其他国家、许多帝国一样，直到 20 世纪初都是一个暴政。
Then Russia had something that no other country has had, which is the longest totalitarian experiment in history.
然后俄罗斯就有了其他国家没有的东西，这是历史上最长的极权主义实验。
That’s a 20th-century phenomenon that has a very specific set of conditions.
这是 20 世纪的现象，有一系列非常具体的条件。
I don’t read Russian history as this history of Russians always want a strong hand, which is a very traditional way of looking at it.
我不读俄罗斯历史，因为俄罗斯人的历史总是需要强有力的手段，这是一种非常传统的看待历史的方式。
I think that Russia, at breaking points when it could have developed a democracy or a semidemocracy, actually started this totalitarian experiment.
我认为，俄罗斯在本来可以发展民主或半民主的临界点上，实际上开始了这种极权主义实验。
And what we’re looking at now is the aftermath of the totalitarian experiment.
我们现在看到的是极权主义实验的后果。
But it’s striking to me, if I speak to non-Jewish ethnic Russians living in the United States — where they have access to all the media — most of them still seem to be pro-Putin, right?
但令我惊讶的是，如果我与生活在美国的非犹太裔俄罗斯人交谈——他们可以接触到所有媒体——他们中的大多数人似乎仍然支持普京，对吧？
And Putin is not a democratic leader.
普京也不是一个民主领导人。
He is, in numerous regards, a pretty nasty autocrat.
从很多方面来看，他都是一个非常令人讨厌的独裁者。
Russians living in this country — again, non-Jewish, non-Armenian, whatever — seem to support him.
生活在这个国家的俄罗斯人——同样，非犹太人，非亚美尼亚人，无论如何——似乎都支持他。
What accounts for that ideological strand in Russians?
是什么造成了俄罗斯人的这种意识形态倾向？
I think that among Russian émigrés, it’s actually a very specific thing, which is that there have been distinct waves of Russian immigration.
我认为，在俄罗斯移民中，实际上有一个非常具体的事情，那就是出现了明显的俄罗斯移民浪潮。
My parents and I came here in 1981 as part of the Jewish immigration.
我和我的父母于 1981 年作为犹太移民的一部分来到这里。
We were fleeing the Soviet Union.
我们正在逃离苏联。
My parents made the decision to step into the abyss.
我的父母做出了踏入深渊的决定。
They knew nothing about the West or what was going to happen to them here.
他们对西方一无所知，也不知道这里会发生什么。
They thought they would never be able to see their friends and relatives in the Soviet Union.
他们认为他们永远无法见到在苏联的朋友和亲戚。
They made this decision to get out of the Soviet Union because it was so important for them to leave the Soviet Union.
他们做出离开苏联的决定是因为离开苏联对他们来说非常重要。
People who came here — who were much more numerous — who came here starting in about 1990 and basically through that decade, who I think are the people you’re referring to — they were fleeing the collapse of the empire.
来到这里的人——人数要多得多——从 1990 年左右开始，基本上在这十年里来到这里，我想他们就是你指的那些人——他们是为了逃离帝国的崩溃。
They were not running away from the Soviet Union.
他们并没有逃离苏联。
They were not leaving Russia.
他们不会离开俄罗斯。
They were leaving that sense of extreme instability and uncertainty that was created by the end of the Soviet Union.
他们正在摆脱苏联解体所造成的极度不稳定和不确定感。
So to them, there’s no contradiction between liking Putin, who came in and said, “I’m going to take you back to that imagined stability and predictability of the Soviet Union” — there’s no contradiction between that and what they felt when they were leaving.
因此，对他们来说，喜欢普京并不矛盾，普京进来说，“我要带你回到想象中的稳定和可预测的苏联”——这和他们离开时的感受并不矛盾。
So I think it’s perfectly logical that they support him.
所以我认为他们支持他是完全合乎逻辑的。
Now you’ve been a major advocate of LGBT rights.
现在您已成为 LGBT 权利的主要倡导者。
If you think about Russian culture, do you think it’s more homophobic than average compared to other autocracies?
如果您考虑一下俄罗斯文化，您是否认为与其他独裁国家相比，俄罗斯文化比平均水平更仇视同性恋？
If so, culturally, why might be that the case?
如果是这样，从文化角度来看，为什么会出现这种情况？
Oh, not at all.
哦，一点也不。
I think that the anti-gay campaign that has been a centerpiece of Russian politics for the last now seven years is completely Kremlin manufactured.
我认为过去七年来一直是俄罗斯政治核心的反同性恋运动完全是克里姆林宫制造的。
I think most Russians had never given the subject any thought, which is, of course, why it’s so effective.
我认为大多数俄罗斯人从未考虑过这个主题，这当然就是它如此有效的原因。
But they haven’t given up the campaign.
但他们并没有放弃竞选活动。
It’s endogenous that they’re continuing it.
他们继续这样做是内生的。
It’s, in some way, succeeding.
从某种程度上来说，它是成功的。
There’s a positive public response.
公众反响积极。
Right, but —
没错，但是——
But a country like Turkey, which is a close neighbor of Russia’s — it seems homosexuality is more accepted, even though it’s maybe in quiet ways.
但像土耳其这样的国家，它是俄罗斯的近邻，同性恋似乎更容易被接受，尽管可能是在悄悄地进行。
Well, actually, Erdogan has also managed to traffic an antigay sentiment quite effectively.
嗯，实际上，埃尔多安还成功地相当有效地传播了反同性恋情绪。
This is a theme that we’re seeing, really, in common among many autocrats in the world right now.
事实上，这是我们现在世界上许多独裁者所共有的一个主题。
It’s not surprising that hatred is getting traction.
仇恨越来越盛行并不奇怪。
Campaigns of hatred get traction, especially when you control the media in the country.
仇恨运动会受到关注，尤其是当你控制该国的媒体时。
How could it not get traction?
怎么可能没有牵引力呢？
It’s particularly effective, of course, because there was no language, there was no conversation, really, about sexuality before that campaign began.
当然，它特别有效，因为在这场运动开始之前，没有语言，没有真正的关于性的对话。
It wasn’t pushing back against anything that existed.
它并没有反对任何存在的东西。
It was just occupying a vacuum.
它只是占据了一个真空。
Once the Kremlin started a conversation about sexuality, it owned it.
一旦克里姆林宫开始谈论性问题，它就拥有了它。
On Putin
关于普京
How constrained is Putin, in your view?
您认为普京受到多大的限制？
What’s your basic model of how Putin rules and what he can do and what he can’t do?
您对于普京如何统治以及他能做什么和不能做什么的基本模式是什么？
I’ve never thought of it in terms of constraint.
我从来没有从约束的角度考虑过它。
I think that he has a natural inclination for economy, an economy of means.
我认为他有一种天生的节约倾向，一种节约手段的倾向。
He’s not a totalitarian-type leader, in the sense that he wants to exert only as much force as necessary to continue accumulating money and power.
他不是一个极权主义类型的领导人，因为他只想发挥必要的力量来继续积累金钱和权力。
Which of those two does he care about more, money or power?
他更在乎这两者中的哪一个，金钱还是权力？
Well, they’re inextricably linked.
嗯，它们是密不可分的。
He measures his money in power and his power in money.
他用权力衡量他的金钱，用金钱衡量他的权力。
He has applied force when he has encountered resistance.
当他遇到阻力时，他会使用武力。
The application of that force has created totalitarian-type conditions in Russian society.
这种力量的运用在俄罗斯社会创造了极权主义的条件。
But he has not created terror.
但他并没有制造恐怖。
He has created selective enforcement and has gone after signal enemies and random people in order to create a sense that he controls the country and to minimize the possibility of any kind of resistance.
他实行选择性执法，追捕信号敌人和随机人员，以营造一种他控制国家的感觉，并最大限度地减少任何形式抵抗的可能性。
Say, in 2011, you seemed to think that Putin was on the verge of losing power, and that doesn’t seem to be the case.
比如说，2011年，你似乎认为普京正处于失去权力的边缘，但事实似乎并非如此。
How have you updated your model of how that works?
您如何更新其工作原理的模型？
GDP per capita in Russia has fallen for the last five years in a row.
俄罗斯人均国内生产总值连续五年下降。
That can’t be good for him.
这对他来说可不是好事。
What is he doing —
他在做什么——
Oh, it’s very good for him.
哦，这对他来说非常好。
It is very good for him.
这对他来说非常好。
Why?
为什么？
Explain.
解释。
Well, because Russian society has reconstituted itself as a totalitarian society.
嗯，因为俄罗斯社会已经将自己重建为一个极权社会。
Poverty and scarcity are actually very good for totalitarian societies.
贫穷和匮乏实际上对极权社会非常有利。
They maintain that sense of mobilization that’s essential for totalitarian societies.
他们保持着极权社会所必需的动员意识。
This is actually not my idea, but I think it has a lot of merit, this idea that the mass protests in Russia that we saw in 2011, 2012 were partly a function of prosperity.
这实际上不是我的想法，但我认为它有很多优点，这种想法认为我们在 2011 年、2012 年看到的俄罗斯大规模抗议活动部分是繁荣的结果。
People lived well enough that they had the luxury of demanding good governance.
人们生活得足够好，以至于可以奢侈地要求良好的治理。
When you’re constantly worried about your survival, you do not actually engage proactively in politics.
当你不断担心自己的生存时，你实际上并没有积极参与政治。
The mass protests in Russia that we saw in 2011, 2012 were partly a function of prosperity.
我们在 2011 年和 2012 年看到的俄罗斯大规模抗议活动部分是繁荣的结果。
People lived well enough that they had the luxury of demanding good governance.
人们生活得足够好，以至于可以奢侈地要求良好的治理。
When you’re constantly worried about your survival, you do not actually engage proactively in politics.
当你不断担心自己的生存时，你实际上并没有积极参与政治。
What’s the chance that Putin leaves office alive?
普京活着卸任的机会有多大？
Probability, if you had to give a single number.
概率，如果你必须给出一个数字。
I learned my lesson from 2011 that journalists should never make predictions.
我从 2011 年吸取了教训，记者永远不应该做出预测。
But a probability is better than a prediction because —
但概率比预测更好，因为——
A probability is —
概率是——
Well, all right.
好吧，好吧。
Let’s say 50–50.
假设是 50-50。
Either he leaves the office alive or he leaves office dead.
他要么活着离开办公室，要么死掉办公室。
I think he plans to be in office for life.
我认为他打算终身任职。
When you met Putin, what was that like?
当你见到普京时，感觉如何？
What was your impression, viscerally?
你内心的印象是什么？
That was bizarre.
这很奇怪。
Some history: I met Putin about six months after publishing an unauthorized biography of him that came out in about 20 languages and became a best seller in many of them.
一些历史：大约六个月后，我在出版了一本未经授权的普京传记后认识了普京，该传记以大约 20 种语言出版，并成为其中许多语言的畅销书。
And he didn’t know about the book.
而且他不知道这本书。
That was really interesting because it’s obvious why he didn’t know about the book.
这真的很有趣，因为很明显为什么他不知道这本书。
In order for him to know about the book, someone would have to tell him about the book.
为了让他了解这本书，就必须有人告诉他这本书。
And nobody wanted to be that person.
没有人想成为那样的人。
But my experience of meeting him — he called me and said that he wanted to meet for a different reason.
但我与他见面的经历——他打电话给我，说他想见面是出于不同的原因。
It had nothing to do with the book.
这与这本书无关。
I couldn’t tell anybody about it because I was afraid of having the meeting canceled.
我不能告诉任何人这件事，因为我害怕会议被取消。
I was in Prague that day.
那天我在布拉格。
I texted my editor in New York and said, “I have to talk to you.
我给纽约的编辑发短信说：“我必须和你谈谈。
Get on GChat.” She got on GChat, and I said, “Putin just called me, and he wants to meet.” She said, “Well, I’m really scared for you.” I’m like, “Are you kidding?” She said, “How are you feeling?” I said, “Well, I would be more excited if it had been Perelman, but this is really good.” Perelman was the first person that I wrote a book about who didn’t talk to me, and Putin was the second.
上 GChat。”她上了 GChat，我说：“普京刚刚给我打电话，他想见见。”她说：“好吧，我真的很担心你。”我说：“你在开玩笑吗？”她说：“你感觉怎么样？”我说：“好吧，如果是佩雷尔曼我会更兴奋，但这真的很棒。”佩雷尔曼是我写的第一个不与我交谈的人，普京是第二个。
It was the sense of meeting a character from your book because the experience of writing nonfiction isn’t that different from writing fiction, in the sense that you have all this available information.
这是一种与书中人物相遇的感觉，因为写非小说类小说的体验与写小说没有什么不同，因为你拥有所有可用的信息。
Then you construct a character to the best of your ability based on the available information.
然后，你根据现有信息，尽你所能构建一个角色。
At that point, I felt like I had constructed him.
在那一刻，我觉得我创造了他。
It was like getting a phone call from the protagonist of your novel who says, “I want to meet.”
这就像接到小说主角打来的电话，他说：“我想见见。”
Then you really want to see whether you got it right.
然后你真的想看看你是否做对了。
Part of me wanted him to be exactly like the person in the book, and part of me wanted him to be different.
我一方面希望他和书中的人一模一样，另一方面又希望他有所不同。
Part of me wanted to make a discovery, to have him be more interesting, more deep, more human because the guy in my book was pretty two dimensional.
我内心的一部分想要做出一个发现，让他变得更有趣、更深刻、更人性化，因为我书中的这个人是相当二维的。
And he was that.
他就是那样。
He was completely two dimensional —
他完全是二维的——
— exactly the guy in my book, which was both gratifying and disappointing.
——正是我书中的那个人，既令人欣慰又令人失望。
Why did Garry Kasparov fail at Russian politics and overthrowing Putin?
为什么加里·卡斯帕罗夫在俄罗斯政治上失败并推翻了普京？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
Garry is a good friend of yours, right?
加里是你的好朋友，对吧？
He’s a friend of mine.
他是我的朋友。
I think he is absolutely brilliant, and he is also charismatic.
我认为他绝对才华横溢，而且也很有魅力。
I actually went on the road with him for a bit in, I guess, 2005.
事实上，我猜是在 2005 年，我和他一起旅行过一段时间。
When I was done, I came home and I literally said to my partner, I said, “I want to quit journalism and go work for him.
当我完成后，我回到家，我对我的伴侣说，“我想退出新闻业并为他工作。
He’s amazing.
他太棒了。
He has an understanding of the world and politics and people like no one I’ve ever met.
他对世界、政治和人的了解是我从未见过的。
He is the smartest person I know.
他是我认识的最聪明的人。
I just want to work for Garry.”
我只想为加里工作。”
It’s actually painful to see him living in exile on Upper West Side and having not just failed — anybody can fail in trying to overthrow a regime — but really having failed to make a dent.
看到他流亡在上西区，不仅失败了（任何人都可能在试图推翻政权的过程中失败），而且实际上也未能取得进展，这实际上是令人痛苦的。
I think that most of it is that Putin controls the public sphere.
我认为主要是普京控制了公共领域。
Garry tried to run a fairly traditional campaign, organizing campaign, where he just traveled the country and met with people.
加里试图开展一场相当传统的竞选活动，组织竞选活动，他只是走遍全国并与人们会面。
He’d get to a town, and the hall that they had rented would be shut down, and he wouldn’t be able to talk to people.
他到了一个城镇，他们租用的大厅就会被关闭，他将无法与人们交谈。
Or every person who was supposed to meet with him would have gotten a threatening phone call.
或者每个应该与他会面的人都会接到威胁电话。
He couldn’t do the grassroots-level organizing that he set out to do and that he put all his resources and money toward.
他无法完成他打算做的、他投入所有资源和金钱的基层组织工作。
Alexei Navalny, the anticorruption campaigner, has shown how you can do organizing in a country that has destroyed the public sphere.
反腐败活动家阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼（Alexei Navalny）向我们展示了如何在一个破坏了公共领域的国家进行组织。
And basically, it’s through the internet; it’s through creating your own media universe, which, in a sense, is what Donald Trump has done as well.
基本上，这是通过互联网；这是通过创建自己的媒体世界，从某种意义上说，这也是唐纳德·特朗普所做的。
I think there are great limitations even to that strategy.
我认为即使这种策略也有很大的局限性。
But that’s not what Garry was doing.
但这不是加里所做的。
On misconceptions of Russia
论对俄罗斯的误解
What’s the biggest American misconception about modern-day Russia right now?
目前美国对现代俄罗斯最大的误解是什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Throw some at me, and I’ll tell you whether they’re misconceptions or not.
扔给我一些，我会告诉你它们是否是误解。
How about the stereotype of the strong Russian woman?
俄罗斯强势女性的刻板印象又如何呢？
There’s a belief that there’s a particular kind of woman in Russia: highly accomplished—
人们相信俄罗斯有一种特殊的女性：成就卓著——
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Oh, she’s out there.
哦，她就在那里。
Super strong.
超级强。
Totally.
完全。
Almost like a superwoman.
几乎就像一个女超人。
Yes.
是的。
Is this true or a misconception?
这是真的还是误解？
True, 100 percent true.
真实，百分百真实。
It’s true.
这是真的。
Where does that come from?
这是从哪里来的？
Where does that come from?
这是从哪里来的？
I think that comes from life.
我认为这来自于生活。
Look, part of the Soviet experiment was this very strange gender-equality ideology.
看，苏联实验的一部分就是这种非常奇怪的性别平等意识形态。
Strange because it was an enforced ideology.
奇怪的是，因为这是一种强制的意识形态。
It was top-down.
这是自上而下的。
Women were almost equally represented in the workforce to men.
女性在劳动力中的比例几乎与男性相同。
But of course, at home, they also did all the housework.
当然，在家里，他们也做所有的家务。
Housework in the Soviet Union was not doing housework in the United States.
苏联的家务劳动并不像美国的家务劳动那样。
It was washing clothes by hand, often in a communal bathroom or a communal bathhouse.
人们通常在公共浴室或公共浴室里用手洗衣服。
It was cooking in a communal kitchen.
当时是在公共厨房做饭。
It was getting food products in conditions of extreme shortages.
它在极度短缺的情况下获取食品。
It was like this constant battle for survival and for the survival of one’s family.
这就像一场为生存和家人生存而进行的持续战斗。
I think that that made women strong, productive, and created a kind of matriarchal family that wouldn’t exist if women weren’t also breadwinners on par with men.
我认为这使女性变得强大、富有成效，并创造了一种母系家庭，如果女性不能与男性同等地养家糊口，这种家庭就不会存在。
But also, I think there may be something about women that is just more adaptable and more likely to take responsibility.
而且，我认为女性可能更具适应能力，也更有可能承担责任。
We really saw this after the Soviet Union collapsed, or even during perestroika, when men who lost their jobs and lost their bearings would often — and I’m trafficking stereotypes, but they are rooted in research — men would stay at home and feel useless and lost.
在苏联解体后，甚至在改革期间，我们确实看到了这一点，当时失业、失去方向的男人常常——我在贩卖刻板印象，但它们植根于研究——男人会呆在家里，感到无用和迷失。
And women would go out and get new careers and new professions and new training and figure out ways to make money because they have to ultimately support the family.
女性会出去寻找新的职业、新的职业和新的培训，并找到赚钱的方法，因为她们最终必须养家糊口。
But what’s your hypothesis?
但你的假设是什么？
Here’s another possible misconception about Russia.
这是对俄罗斯的另一个可能的误解。
I’m an American.
我是美国人。
I walk down the street in Moscow.
我走在莫斯科的街道上。
It seems to me people don’t smile very much.
在我看来，人们不太爱笑。
Now they, in turn, may see me smiling and think I’m stupid—
现在，反过来，他们可能会看到我微笑并认为我很愚蠢——
Absolutely, yes.
绝对是的。
— because I’m smiling.
——因为我在微笑。
Now, were they actually less happy?
现在，他们真的不那么快乐了吗？
Or is that just a cultural difference, that they don’t smile as much?
或者这只是一种文化差异，他们不那么爱笑？
And where does that come from?
这是从哪里来的？
Yes, people in Russia certainly do not smile as much.
是的，俄罗斯人当然不那么爱笑。
Yes, when I moved here in 1981, I thought Americans were so strange.
是的，当我1981年搬到这里时，我觉得美国人很奇怪。
We moved to Boston, not the smiliest city in this country.
我们搬到了波士顿，它不是这个国家最微笑的城市。
Quite the contrary.
恰恰相反。
Certainly not the friendliest, and I thought Americans were absurd.
当然不是最友好的，我认为美国人很荒谬。
They will say hello to you in the street for no reason.
他们会无缘无故地在街上跟你打招呼。
Yeah, I found them very unreasonably friendly.
是的，我发现他们非常友好。
I think that there’s a kind of grumpy and dark culture in Russia.
我认为俄罗斯有一种脾气暴躁、黑暗的文化。
Russians certainly have a lot of discernment in the fine shades of misery.
俄罗斯人对于苦难的细微差别当然有很多洞察力。
If you ask a Russian how they are, they will not cheerfully respond by saying they’re great.
如果你问一个俄罗斯人他们怎么样，他们不会高兴地回答说他们很棒。
If they’re miserable, they might actually share that with you in some detail.
如果他们很痛苦，他们实际上可能会与你详细地分享。
There’s no shame in being miserable in Russia.
在俄罗斯遭遇痛苦并不可耻。
There’s, in fact, a lot of validation.
事实上，有很多验证。
Read a Russian novel.
读一本俄罗斯小说。
You’ll find it all in there.
你会在那里找到一切。
We really are connoisseurs of depression.
我们确实是抑郁症的鉴赏家。
There’s no shame in being miserable in Russia.
在俄罗斯遭遇痛苦并不可耻。
There’s, in fact, a lot of validation.
事实上，有很多验证。
Read a Russian novel.
读一本俄罗斯小说。
You’ll find it all in there.
你会在那里找到一切。
We really are connoisseurs of depression.
我们确实是抑郁症的鉴赏家。
I think that it’s part of the culture; it’s part of the literary culture.
我认为这是文化的一部分；它是文学文化的一部分。
It’s part of the narrative.
这是叙述的一部分。
It is also a function of powerlessness.
这也是一种无能为力的功能。
According to Hannah Arendt, the defining condition of totalitarianism is loneliness.
汉娜·阿伦特认为，极权主义的定义条件是孤独。
I think she is exactly right in her diagnosis.
我认为她的诊断是完全正确的。
This is something that is often overlooked in her writing, but it’s an incredible humanistic discovery that she made in writing about totalitarianism.
这是她在写作中经常被忽视的一点，但这是她在写作极权主义时做出的令人难以置信的人文发现。
When I teach Russian literature, I teach it through that lens — 20th-century Russian literature — the lens of loneliness.
当我教授俄罗斯文学时，我是通过这个镜头——20世纪的俄罗斯文学——孤独的镜头来教授它的。
When we also look at some of the social phenomena in Russia, a lot of them — for example, excess mortality — are explainable through mass depression.
当我们也审视俄罗斯的一些社会现象时，其中许多现象——例如死亡率过高——都可以通过大规模萧条来解释。
Now, America’s a freer country, a richer country, I hope a more stable country.
现在，美国是一个更自由的国家，一个更富裕的国家，我希望是一个更稳定的国家。
Yet you moved back to Russia at what age?
但您几岁搬回俄罗斯？
And why did you move back there?
你为什么搬回那里？
I was 24 when I first went back.
我第一次回国时才24岁。
I was already a journalist.
我已经是一名记者了。
I just went back on a story, and I thought .
我刚刚回顾了一个故事，然后我想。
.
。
.
。
First of all, I was blown away by feeling at home, which is something I didn’t expect.
首先，我对宾至如归的感觉感到震惊，这是我没想到的。
I had moved when I was 14.
我14岁时就搬家了。
I had no sentimental attachment to Russia at that point.
那时我对俄罗斯没有任何感情。
I really expected it to feel like a foreign country where I was reporting, and I just happen to speak the language, and feeling physically comfortable in a way that I never did in New York.
我真的很希望在我报道的地方感觉就像是在一个外国，而我恰好会说这种语言，并且感觉身体很舒服，这是我在纽约从未有过的。
I love the city, but somehow, just the way the light fell, the way that the air smelled, everything about it was so comfortable.
我喜欢这座城市，但不知何故，光的照射方式，空气的气味，它的一切都是如此舒适。
I’ve talked since to many people who went back to their childhood countries, not necessarily Russia.
从那时起，我和许多回到童年国家的人交谈过，不一定是俄罗斯。
It is a sensation that catches you unawares often, and it is incredibly powerful.
这种感觉常常让你措手不及，而且非常强大。
That was part of it.
这是其中的一部分。
It’s not like I was walking around and thought, “Oh, my God, I’m going to move back.
我并不是一边走一边想：“天啊，我要搬回去了。
This is home.” Not at all, but it was very powerful.
这里就是家。”一点也不，但是却非常强大。
The other thing was that it was the most interesting place in the world.
另一件事是，它是世界上最有趣的地方。
It was March 1991.
那是 1991 年 3 月。
The Soviet Union still existed, but it was in such turmoil, and people were having such important conversations.
苏联仍然存在，但它处于如此混乱的状态，人们正在进行如此重要的对话。
And they were having them in a way that actually made it feel like those conversations would have consequences.
他们以一种实际上让人感觉这些对话会产生后果的方式进行对话。
So it was irresistible to me as a journalist.
所以作为一名记者，这对我来说是不可抗拒的。
I started going back and forth.
我开始来回走动。
Then after a couple of years, I realized I should stop paying rent here and just move to Moscow.
几年后，我意识到我应该停止支付这里的租金，搬到莫斯科。
Why did you move back here the second time, what, six years ago?
为什么你第二次搬回这里，什么，六年前？
About five and a half years ago.
大约五年半前。
Yeah, the antigay campaign started.
是的，反同性恋运动开始了。
I was, at the time, parenting three children with a woman.
当时我和一个女人一起抚养三个孩子。
The state was threatening to take my oldest son — who’s adopted — away.
该州威胁要带走我收养的大儿子。
That didn’t leave me any choice.
这并没有给我留下任何选择。
We packed up and left.
我们收拾好东西就离开了。
In which way is American society more collectivist than that of Russia?
美国社会在哪些方面比俄罗斯社会更加集体主义？
My initial response would be in no way.
我最初的反应是绝对不会。
But say you go to a high school football game.
但是假设你去看一场高中橄榄球比赛。
I’ve never been.
我从来没有去过。
Isn’t there a part of you that thinks, “Oh, my goodness, all this conformism.
难道你心里没有一部分人会想：“哦，天哪，这一切都是因循守旧。
I’ve read Tocqueville.
我读过托克维尔的书。
We Russians are the true individualists.
我们俄罗斯人是真正的个人主义者。
What are all these people doing shouting at the same time over nothing?” Is there no part of America that brings forth that reaction in you?
这些人无缘无故地同时大喊大叫做什么？”难道美国的任何地方都没有给你带来这种反应吗？
I probably haven’t had that experience in America, Tyler.
我在美国可能没有这样的经历，泰勒。
I’ve never been to a high school football game.
我从未看过高中橄榄球比赛。
We’ll bring you sometime.
我们有时会带你去。
My oldest son — he graduated from high school here in New York, but he went to a specialized music-school high school, not a football-playing school.
我的大儿子——他从纽约的高中毕业，但他去了一所专门的音乐学校高中，而不是一所足球学校。
My second child is unschooled.
我的第二个孩子没有上学。
Let’s see if you can talk me out of another possible misconception about Russia, and that is, I have this sense that there are only about five first names for women in Russia.
让我们看看你能否说服我消除对俄罗斯的另一个可能的误解，那就是，我有这样的感觉：俄罗斯女性的名字大约只有五个。
True.
真的。
There’s Masha, there’s Anya, there’s Natasha.
玛莎、安雅、娜塔莎。
Why is this?
这是为什么呢？
Why is this the equilibrium?
为什么这是平衡？
Why don’t more people deviate when naming their children?
为什么没有更多的人给孩子起名字时出现偏差呢？
Russia is a conformist society and people .
俄罗斯是一个墨守成规的社会和人民。
.
。
.
。
Yeah, my friends have kids who have different names.
是的，我的朋友有不同名字的孩子。
But it only became possible, really, to give your children names that mark them out after the Soviet Union collapsed.
但事实上，只有在苏联解体之后，才有可能给你的孩子起一个能够让他们与众不同的名字。
All of my friends have the same name, and then all of our children have bizarrely different names.
我所有的朋友都有相同的名字，但我们所有的孩子都有奇怪的不同名字。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
In the middle of all these conversations, there’s a segment called overrated versus underrated.
在所有这些对话的中间，有一个部分称为高估与低估。
I’ll toss out some notions, and you tell me if you think they’re overrated or underrated, okay?
我会抛出一些想法，你告诉我你是否认为它们被高估或低估了，好吗？
Tarkovsky movies.
塔可夫斯基的电影。
Oh, God, overrated.
天啊，被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
I can’t stand them.
我受不了他们。
Sorry.
对不起。
Bagels — overrated or underrated?
百吉饼——被高估还是被低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Especially in New York?
尤其是在纽约？
I’m thinking more globally.
我的思考更加全球化。
Spending time on Facebook?
花时间在 Facebook 上？
It depends on what you do.
这取决于你做什么。
For you?
为你？
For me, it’s essential.
对我来说，这是必不可少的。
It’s essential to my work.
这对我的工作至关重要。
It doesn’t feel like a waste of time.
感觉不像是浪费时间。
Sometimes it’s a waste of time.
有时这是浪费时间。
But if it’s a waste of time, it’s basically me working inefficiently.
但如果说这是浪费时间，那基本上就是我工作效率低下。
But it’s an essential part of my work.
但这是我工作的重要组成部分。
American television as a whole — underrated or overrated?
美国电视作为一个整体——被低估还是被高估？
Currently, probably overrated.
目前，可能被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
I think we’ve gotten used to the idea that we’re in the golden age of television, which, in the sense of how many things are being produced, is absolutely true.
我认为我们已经习惯了我们正处于电视黄金时代的想法，从正在制作的东西的意义上来说，这是绝对正确的。
But there used to be the presumption that if something is on television, it’s probably terrible.
但过去人们普遍认为，如果某件事出现在电视上，那它可能很糟糕。
If it has any redeeming qualities to it, that’s already extraordinary.
如果它有任何可取之处，那就已经很了不起了。
I think we’ve gone over to the opposite side where we assume that something is a masterpiece.
我认为我们已经走到了相反的一边，我们认为某些东西是杰作。
For example, I had to endure the five episodes of Chernobyl because I had to write about it, and it was really an ordeal.
例如，我不得不忍受《切尔诺贝利》的五集，因为我必须写它，这确实是一种折磨。
I thought it was terrible, and not just because I thought it was reductionist, but I thought the writing was awful, the dialogue was horrible.
我认为这很糟糕，不仅仅是因为我认为它是还原论，而且我认为写作很糟糕，对话很糟糕。
I don’t know why it was incredibly well received by critics among others.
我不知道为什么它受到评论家和其他人的热烈欢迎。
It’s like we no longer have an ear for bad writing on television.
就好像我们不再关注电视上的糟糕文字一样。
Why was the last year of The Americans so good?
为什么美国队去年的表现如此出色？
I know you’ve worked for the show as a translator.
我知道你曾为该节目担任翻译。
But what made that so magical toward the end?
但是什么让这一切在最后变得如此神奇呢？
I thought all of it was actually amazing, but The Americans is like the exact opposite of Chernobyl in the sense that it’s actually .
我认为这一切实际上都是令人惊奇的，但从某种意义上说，《美国人》与切尔诺贝利完全相反。
.
。
.
。
And it was a very strange experience for me as a translator.
对于我作为一名翻译来说，这是一次非常奇怪的经历。
I translated all the Russian scenes in the last three seasons, and there was like almost nothing in the dialogue.
我翻译了过去三季中所有的俄语场景，对话中几乎没有任何内容。
Everything that happened in The Americans happened not in what people said, but what they felt, how they acted things.
《美国人》中发生的一切不是人们所说的，而是人们的感受和行为。
In that sense, it was very good filmmaking.
从这个意义上说，这是一部非常好的电影制作。
Whereas in Chernobyl, everything is processed and dispensed and explained and overexplained in dialogue.
而在切尔诺贝利，一切都在对话中被处理、分配、解释和过度解释。
I think that what made The Americans so good and made it get better as it went on was the psychological depth of not speaking things out, but showing things and showing relationships develop and disintegrate onscreen without everything having to be spelled out.
我认为，《美国谍梦》之所以如此出色，并且随着剧情的发展变得越来越好，是因为它的心理深度，即不把事情说出来，而是在屏幕上展示事情和关系的发展和瓦解，而无需把所有事情都讲清楚。
Tolstoy’s long short story, Hadji Murad — overrated or underrated?
托尔斯泰的长篇短篇小说《哈吉·穆拉德》——被高估还是被低估？
Where?
在哪里？
In America.
在美国。
In America?
在美国？
Underrated.
被低估了。
How do we fix the college admissions scandal?
我们如何解决大学招生丑闻？
A simple question.
一个简单的问题。
We nationalize higher education.
我们将高等教育国有化。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
It means we have to talk about it, to learn to think about higher education as a public good.
这意味着我们必须谈论它，学会将高等教育视为公共利益。
There has to be a way to create publicly funded higher education that doesn’t cost an impossible amount of money for most people who want to get a higher education.
必须有一种方法来创建公共资助的高等教育，并且对于大多数想要接受高等教育的人来说，不需要花费太多的钱。
I think it would also have the result of leveling the field among colleges.
我认为这也会带来大学之间的公平竞争的结果。
There are lots of normal countries that have normal higher education where—
有很多拥有普通高等教育的普通国家——
But they have worse systems than we do it, it seems.
但他们的系统似乎比我们更糟糕。
German higher education is nationalized.
德国高等教育实行国有化。
It’s close to free.
它接近免费。
It seems starved of funds, lower quality than what America produces, and Germany’s a smart, fairly effective country.
它似乎缺乏资金，产品质量比美国低，而德国是一个聪明、相当高效的国家。
I don’t know that it’s necessarily lower quality than what America produces.
我不知道它的质量一定比美国生产的低。
How do you measure that?
你如何衡量这一点？
Say Nobel Prizes or the value of the degree in terms of earnings or—
比如说诺贝尔奖或学位的收入价值，或者——
I don’t think Nobel Prizes are a great way to measure it because a lot of people come to the United States to do research in university settings and end up winning Nobel Prizes.
我不认为诺贝尔奖是衡量它的好方法，因为很多人来到美国在大学环境中进行研究并最终获得了诺贝尔奖。
That doesn’t tell us a whole lot about the difference between higher education in this country and the countries that we draw from.
这并没有告诉我们很多关于这个国家和我们的母国的高等教育之间的差异。
Look at Australian education.
看看澳洲的教育。
Next to free, basically the stress of getting into a university is .
除了自由之外，基本上进入大学的压力是。
.
。
.
。
It exists, but it’s so much less than it is in this country.
它存在，但比这个国家少得多。
You basically assume that you’re going to go to university in your city — the best university or the second best or the third best.
你基本上假设你要去你所在城市的大学——最好的大学或第二好的大学或第三好的大学。
You’re going to get in.
你会进去的。
You’re going to get an education.
你将接受教育。
That education is going to allow you to work professionally after.
这种教育将使您能够在毕业后从事专业工作。
Yes, depending on your grades, you’re going to get into the better or the worse university.
是的，根据你的成绩，你会进入更好或更差的大学。
It doesn’t have the import that it has here where young people feel like their lives depend on it, depend on where they get in, which seems just absurd.
它不像这里那样重要，年轻人觉得他们的生活取决于它，取决于他们进入的地方，这似乎很荒谬。
I’m rambling because this is very close to home, because I’m also involved in these arguments with my kids about their education.
我之所以胡言乱语，是因为这离家很近，因为我也参与了与孩子们关于教育问题的争论。
I say to my daughter, “Look, it doesn’t matter which college you go to.
我对我女儿说：“听着，你去哪所大学并不重要。
You can get a really good education anywhere” — which is true in this country — “and you can also be miserable anywhere.
你可以在任何地方接受真正良好的教育”——在这个国家确实如此——“但你也可以在任何地方感到痛苦。
Just look at some places.
看看一些地方就知道了。
Look at what looks good to you.
看看什么对你来说好看。
Have a few safety schools.
有几所保底学校。
Relax!”
放松点！”
She’s just, “No, no. You don’t understand.
她只是说，“不，不。你不明白。
I’m never going to be successful if I don’t go to one of the best colleges.” That is patently not true.
如果我不去最好的大学之一，我永远不会成功。”这显然不是真的。
But that’s the kind of stress environment that is created, even for an unschooled kid outside of high-pressure high school environment, even with a parent who is like me.
但这就是一种压力环境，即使对于高压高中环境之外未受过教育的孩子来说，即使有像我这样的父母。
It was about 15 years ago that you described, with very powerful writing, the choices that you took when you learned you had a diagnosis of having some cancer mutations.
大约 15 年前，您以非常有力的文字描述了当您得知自己被诊断患有某些癌症突变时所做出的选择。
If I understand this correctly, you chose to have a double mastectomy, but not to have your ovaries removed.
如果我理解正确的话，您选择进行双侧乳房切除术，但没有切除卵巢。
You wrote about this in a book.
您在一本书中写到了这一点。
Fifteen years later, what would you say to someone who faces the same diagnosis today?
十五年后，您会对今天面临同样诊断的人说什么？
What advice would you give them?
你会给他们什么建议？
Or how does it look different to you 15 years on?
或者 15 年后的你看起来有何不同？
I haven’t fully kept up with the research.
我还没有完全跟上这项研究。
I did end up having my ovaries removed when I was 50.
我在 50 岁时确实切除了卵巢。
But I’m really glad I had the extra more than a decade of hormones.
但我真的很高兴我多了十多年的荷尔蒙。
I would say do your research.
我想说做你的研究。
I think that some of the interesting things that I found when I was researching .
我认为我在研究时发现的一些有趣的事情。
.
。
.
。
And the reason I ended up writing a book is that when I found out I had this deleterious mutation — this was really in the early days of this kind of thing — I realized I couldn’t process information.
我最终写一本书的原因是，当我发现我有这种有害的突变时——这确实是在这种事情的早期——我意识到我无法处理信息。
Then I thought, “Oh, well, I used to be a medical reporter.
然后我想，“哦，好吧，我曾经是一名医学记者。
I used to be able to read medical papers and actually process the stuff.
我曾经能够阅读医学论文并实际处理这些内容。
I just have to stop thinking of myself as the person who is trying to make a decision and think of this as a research project.”
我只需停止将自己视为试图做出决定的人，而将其视为一个研究项目。”
Then I sold a series of stories to Slate, and the project was to conduct a series of interviews with people who could give me information that would help me make a decision.
然后我向 Slate 出售了一系列故事，该项目是对那些可以为我提供信息以帮助我做出决定的人进行一系列采访。
Then at the end of the series, make a decision.
然后在系列结束时做出决定。
I did that over the course of something like eight weeks for Slate, and I cast a much wider net than you normally would.
我在 Slate 上花了大约八周的时间完成了这件事，而且我撒的网比平时要广得多。
Normally, people would go talk to an oncologist and a genetic counselor and make a decision.
通常，人们会与肿瘤学家和遗传咨询师交谈并做出决定。
You went to the Harvard economist David Laibson, right?
你去找了哈佛大学经济学家大卫·莱布森，对吧？
One of the people I went to, yes, and many other people.
是的，我去找过其中一个人，还有很多其他人。
But yes, that was actually one of the best interviews, although he .
但是，是的，这实际上是最好的采访之一，尽管他……
.
。
.
。
We devised a formula together, and the formula suggested that I should have both the oophorectomy and the mastectomy.
我们一起设计了一个公式，该公式建议我应该同时进行卵巢切除术和乳房切除术。
But then I ended up deciding to just have the mastectomy.
但后来我最终决定只进行乳房切除术。
But one of the things I realized — and this is just a small illustration of people’s heuristics — I realized that doctors were pushing women to have oophorectomies, the removal of the ovaries, and not mastectomies because an oophorectomy is a very easy surgery, and you cannot see outward expressions of it.
但我意识到的一件事——这只是人们启发式的一个小例子——我意识到医生正在推动女性进行卵巢切除术，切除卵巢，而不是乳房切除术，因为卵巢切除术是一项非常简单的手术，你看不到它的外在表现。
The easy surgery has a much greater impact on health.
简单的手术对健康的影响要大得多。
Everything in your body is hormone dependent in some way or another, so it completely changes the functioning of the body.
你体内的一切都以某种方式依赖于激素，因此它完全改变了身体的功能。
Whereas the more complicated surgery that a mastectomy is and that has clearly visible results actually has no impact on health whatsoever.
而乳房切除术是更复杂的手术，并且具有清晰可见的结果，实际上对健康没有任何影响。
But doctors have this very strong bias that results from what is an easier surgery with a shorter recovery time, but then no long-term consequences seems like a better solution to them.
但医生有这种非常强烈的偏见，这是因为手术更容易、恢复时间更短，但长期后果似乎不是更好的解决方案。
How did that whole experience change your sense of what is valuable in life?
整个经历如何改变了你对生活有价值的看法？
You ask all the really easy questions.
你问了所有非常简单的问题。
Actually, I don’t know that it changed my sense of what is valuable in life.
事实上，我不知道它改变了我对生命有价值的看法。
I definitely think that life is more important than breasts, but I probably thought that before that question was put to me as well.
我确实认为生命比乳房更重要，但在这个问题问我之前我可能也这么认为。
But it actually had an impact long term on how I think about gender.
但它实际上对我对性别的看法产生了长期影响。
How?
如何？
I was not, at that time, particularly thinking about experimenting with gender.
当时我并没有特别考虑尝试性别。
I was perfectly happy living as a woman and having all the organs that go with that.
作为一名女性，我非常幸福地生活，并拥有与之相伴的所有器官。
Then as I went on and shed the organs that go with womanhood, I thought, “Well, now I’m the body without organs and hormones.
然后，当我继续摆脱与女性气质相关的器官时，我想，“好吧，现在我是一个没有器官和激素的身体。
What I am I going to do about this?”
我该怎么办？
I’ve actually made decisions about hormone replacement as a blank slate.
事实上，我在一片空白的时候就已经做出了关于激素替代的决定。
I went on female hormones at first — I went to estrogen — I mean female and male.
我一开始服用女性荷尔蒙——我服用雌激素——我指的是女性和男性。
Obviously, both men and women have both estrogen and testosterone, but in different proportions.
显然，男性和女性都含有雌激素和睾酮，但比例不同。
And I felt horrible.
我感觉很糟糕。
I felt really, really awful taking estrogen.
服用雌激素我感觉非常非常糟糕。
I thought, “Hell, let me go in the other direction.” I started taking testosterone, and I’m having a lot more fun on testosterone than I did on estrogen.
我想：“见鬼，让我朝另一个方向走吧。”我开始服用睾酮，而且我服用睾酮比服用雌激素更有趣。
I felt really, really awful taking estrogen.
服用雌激素我感觉非常非常糟糕。
I thought, “Hell, let me go in the other direction.” I started taking testosterone, and I’m having a lot more fun on testosterone than I did on estrogen.
我想：“见鬼，让我朝另一个方向走吧。”我开始服用睾酮，而且我服用睾酮比服用雌激素更有趣。
I’m on a very low dose.
我的剂量非常低。
But that has created a nonbinary gender situation for me.
但这为我创造了一种非二元性别的情况。
But for me, the physical stuff was primary, and then the gender stuff was secondary.
但对我来说，身体的东西是主要的，然后性别的东西是次要的。
On the Masha Gessen production function
关于 Masha Gessen 生产函数
Now I have a few questions about what I call the Masha Gessen production function — how you manage to do and be what you are.
现在我有几个关于我所说的玛莎·格森生产函数的问题——你如何做到这一点并成为你自己。
First question, super simple like the others: how is it you manage to read so much in so many different areas?
第一个问题，像其他问题一样非常简单：你是如何在这么多不同领域阅读这么多内容的？
You have a book on terrorism.
你有一本关于恐怖主义的书。
We didn’t even get to talk about that, right?
我们甚至没有谈论过这个，对吧？
You have a book on Pussy Riot that hasn’t been mentioned.
你有一本关于 Pussy Riot 的书，但没有被提及。
How do you absorb?
你如何吸收？
What’s your trick?
你有什么绝招？
Well, you assume that if I write, I read.
好吧，你假设如果我写作，我就会阅读。
There are footnotes in all of these books.
所有这些书中都有脚注。
This is true.
这是真实的。
I don’t actually think I read an extraordinary amount.
我实际上并不认为我读了很多书。
I’m a pretty slow reader.
我的阅读速度相当慢。
It’s just I have the luxury.
只是我有这个奢侈。
I have a year or two to write a book, and I can read extensively on the topic.
我有一两年的时间来写一本书，并且我可以广泛阅读有关该主题的内容。
I absorb very well, and then I forget it all.
我吸收得很好，然后就忘记了。
A friend of mine once called me an empty pot.
我的一个朋友曾经骂我是空锅。
How do you manage to follow politics in two very different, very large countries at the same time?
您如何同时关注两个截然不同的大国的政治？
I’m always feeling like I’m not following enough, like I’m not getting enough information.
我总觉得自己关注得不够，没有获得足够的信息。
So your dream is to follow more rather than less?
所以你的梦想是追随更多而不是更少？
That’s depressing in a way.
这在某种程度上令人沮丧。
GESSEN: My dream is to feel like I have a better handle on things.
GESSEN：我的梦想是感觉自己能更好地处理事情。
Russia is much simpler in a way.
俄罗斯在某种程度上要简单得多。
Very little happens, in fact, or what happens is more or less the same thing over and over again.
事实上，很少发生什么，或者发生的事情或多或少都是一遍又一遍地发生同样的事情。
That’s what I mean when I say that spending time on Facebook is really part of my work.
这就是我说花时间在 Facebook 上确实是我工作的一部分的意思。
I try to have a sense of the temperature of the air, the flavor of the conversation.
我尝试去感受空气的温度和谈话的味道。
That’s where social networks, used strategically, I think, are extremely useful.
我认为，这就是战略性使用社交网络非常有用的地方。
It’s the kind of research tool that I didn’t have as a young journalist, and I really appreciate it now.
这是我作为一名年轻记者所没有的研究工具，现在我真的很感激它。
As for American politics, I’m always in fear of missing stuff, like major stuff.
至于美国政治，我总是担心错过一些东西，比如重大的东西。
I listen to a lot of podcasts.
我听很多播客。
I bike a lot, and whenever I’m biking, I’m listening to podcasts.
我经常骑自行车，每当我骑自行车时，我都会听播客。
I try to switch among podcasts a lot.
我经常尝试在播客之间切换。
But then I go hiking, and I go offline for 24 hours, and stuff happens.
但后来我去徒步旅行，24 小时离线，然后事情就发生了。
Then I discover that it happened days later because there’s another news cycle.
然后我发现它发生在几天后，因为还有另一个新闻周期。
I mean, the insanity of the news cycle is impossible.
我的意思是，新闻周期的疯狂是不可能的。
Putting normative questions aside, just analytically, what do you wish you understood about American politics that you feel maybe you don’t?
抛开规范性问题，只是分析一下，关于美国政治，你希望自己了解哪些你认为可能不了解的内容？
That’s a question that is actually objectively impossible to answer.
这是一个实际上客观上无法回答的问题。
Why?
为什么？
Because if I understood what I don’t understand, then I’d go and understand it, wouldn’t I?
因为如果我理解了我不理解的东西，那么我就会去理解它，不是吗？
Well, I might feel I wish I understood how Congress influences regulatory agencies more than it does, or voter behavior might be the thing I don’t understand, or what presidents actually seek to maximize, or state and local government.
好吧，我可能觉得我希望我了解国会如何比它更能影响监管机构，或者选民的行为可能是我不理解的事情，或者总统实际上寻求最大化的东西，或者州和地方政府。
No, I think that those are research questions, so I don’t feel a deficit in that area because you can always do the research to answer a research question.
不，我认为这些都是研究问题，所以我不觉得在这方面有缺陷，因为你总是可以通过研究来回答研究问题。
I think there are cultural deficits that I have because I didn’t grow up here.
我认为我存在文化缺陷，因为我不是在这里长大的。
In fact, I haven’t lived here for most of my life.
事实上，我大半生都没有住在这里。
In some ways, that gives me a good perch because it’s sometimes really beneficial to write about things as an outsider, as an informed outsider.
在某些方面，这给了我一个很好的位置，因为有时作为一个局外人、一个见多识广的局外人来写东西确实是有益的。
But I think where I’m at a huge disadvantage is race politics.
但我认为我处于巨大劣势的是种族政治。
Not having grown up in this country, I never feel on solid footing.
我不是在这个国家长大的，所以从来没有感到站稳脚跟。
You don’t seem to write about it much, if at all.
你似乎没有写太多（如果有的话）。
Is that impression correct?
这种印象正确吗？
That’s correct, yeah, because I don’t feel I can.
是的，这是正确的，因为我觉得我做不到。
Yeah.
是的。
You had an early career as a journalist in Chechnya, right?
您早期的职业生涯是在车臣当记者，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
How did that shape your later views?
这对你后来的观点有何影响？
That must’ve been quite formative.
这一定是相当有影响力的。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Well, one way it shaped my views is that I’m a pacifist.
嗯，它塑造了我的观点的一个方面是我是一个和平主义者。
I think that being a war reporter will do that for you.
我认为成为一名战地记者会为你做到这一点。
That’s actually influenced how I bring up my kids.
这实际上影响了我抚养孩子的方式。
There are never guns in the house.
家里从来没有枪。
There are no war games.
没有战争游戏。
I talk to them at length about why that is.
我与他们详细讨论了其中的原因。
And that sticks, you think?
你认为这种情况会持续下去吗？
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
It can’t not stick.
不可能不粘。
I mean, it may be traumatic because they don’t get to play with some of the same things that their friends play with, but it makes an impression.
我的意思是，这可能会造成创伤，因为他们无法玩他们的朋友玩的一些相同的东西，但这给人留下了深刻的印象。
What is your most unusual writing habit?
你最不寻常的写作习惯是什么？
I write by hand.
我用手写。
You write by hand?
你手写吗？
I write by hand.
我用手写。
I write longhand.
我手写。
And someone types it into a computer?
有人将其输入计算机吗？
Or that never happens?
或者这永远不会发生？
No, I write books longhand, and then I type them up chapter by chapter.
不，我手写书籍，然后逐章打印。
I write a chapter out longhand and then type it.
我手写一章，然后打字。
Why is that good for you?
为什么这对你有好处？
Because I think that the process of writing longhand is more linear.
因为我认为手写的过程更加线性。
If you ever look at how you write, or if I ever look at how I write, if I just write on a computer, unless it’s .
如果你看看你是怎么写的，或者如果我曾经看看我是怎么写的，如果我只是在电脑上写，除非它是。
.
。
.
。
A column is also pretty linear.
列也非常线性。
I outline it, and then I just fill in every paragraph, and I do that on a computer.
我概述它，然后填写每个段落，然后在计算机上完成。
But if I write a very long piece, I don’t notice how much I jump around when I’m writing on a computer.
但如果我写一篇很长的文章，当我在电脑上写作时，我不会注意到我有多少跳跃。
You can’t do that on paper.
你不能在纸上做到这一点。
You have to keep going.
你必须继续前进。
Then it poses a narrative structure that is unbreakable.
然后它提出了一个牢不可破的叙事结构。
One sentence has to follow the previous sentence.
一个句子必须跟在前一个句子之后。
You can’t go back and reinsert it.
您无法返回并重新插入它。
It keeps me very focused, I find.
我发现它让我非常专注。
The other thing it does is that when I’m typing it up, I’m reading it on paper, and I think that there’s a difference.
它所做的另一件事是，当我打字时，我在纸上阅读它，我认为这是有区别的。
When the book is ready, I will then print it out and edit it again on paper.
当书准备好后，我会将其打印出来并在纸上再次编辑。
But every time you read, when you’re reading on paper and you’re reading on screen, you’re seeing completely different things.
但每次你阅读时，当你在纸上阅读和在屏幕上阅读时，你会看到完全不同的东西。
You listen to music when you write?
你写作时听音乐吗？
No.
不。
Never?
从来没有？
I used to, but I don’t now.
我以前喜欢，但现在不喜欢了。
What book would we be most surprised to see on your bookshelf, at least the active section of your bookshelf?
我们最惊讶地在您的书架上看到什么书，至少是您书架的活动部分？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Actually, I’m not convinced that there’s anything surprising on my bookshelf.
事实上，我并不相信我的书架上有什么令人惊讶的东西。
I think it’s probably pretty predictable.
我认为这可能是可以预见的。
You buy books on Amazon, and they arrive?
你在亚马逊上买书，它们就到了吗？
I buy books on Amazon.
我在亚马逊上买书。
A lot of the time, books just come.
很多时候，书就来了。
That’s the advantage of being a writer and a journalist, is that people send me books.
这就是作为一名作家和记者的优势，那就是人们给我寄书。
If you were to describe your philosophy of child-rearing, other than pacifism, what else would you say?
如果让您描述一下您的育儿理念，除了和平主义之外，您还会说什么？
I think that the best thing I do as a parent — and I do many things not very well — but the best thing I do as a parent is, all my kids have always been included in adult conversations.
我认为作为父母我做的最好的事情——虽然我做的很多事情都不是很好——但作为父母我做的最好的事情是，我所有的孩子总是被纳入成人的对话中。
We always talk about everything.
我们总是谈论一切。
Part of it is laziness.
部分原因是懒惰。
I can’t separate things out.
我无法将事情分开。
But my kids have grown up hanging out with adults, being very comfortable being part of adult conversation, but also knowing that they can have a say, and they can have an opinion on whatever political issue is being discussed, regardless of what age they are.
但我的孩子们是和成年人一起长大的，他们很舒服地参与成年人的谈话，但也知道他们可以有发言权，他们可以对正在讨论的任何政治问题发表意见，无论他们多大。
Do you think there’s too much age segregation in the United States?
您认为美国的年龄隔离是否过多？
I think there is.
我认为有。
I see that among my older kids’ friends.
我在我大孩子的朋友中看到了这一点。
As teenagers, they started bringing friends home, and I realized that these young people had no experience socializing with people their parents’ ages.
作为青少年，他们开始带朋友回家，我意识到这些年轻人没有与父母同龄人交往的经验。
Last two questions before we turn to Q&A.
在我们进行问答之前，最后两个问题。
First, if a very smart young person, say 18, 19 years old, came up to you and said they wanted to be like the Masha Gessen of the next generation, and they ask you for advice, nontrivial advice, what would you tell them?
首先，如果一个非常聪明的年轻人，比如 18、19 岁的人，走到你面前，说他们想成为下一代的玛莎·格森（Masha Gessen），他们向你寻求建议，非常重要的建议，你会告诉他们什么？
I would probably tell them to take as many risks as possible.
我可能会告诉他们要承担尽可能多的风险。
As many risks as possible.
尽可能多的风险。
Finally, what’s your next project?
最后，你的下一个项目是什么？
I’m working on a book.
我正在写一本书。
I’m actually about to set it aside for a couple of months.
实际上我打算把它搁置几个月。
But I’ve been working on a book for a couple of years on imaginative political projects.
但几年来我一直在写一本关于富有想象力的政治项目的书。
It’s based on a concept from Czechoslovakia from the 1970s, from Charter 77 — the concept of the parallel polis, which is .
它基于 20 世纪 70 年代捷克斯洛伐克《77 宪章》中的一个概念——平行城邦的概念。
.
。
.
。
And I think you might actually find this might relate to your work in a way.
我认为您实际上可能会发现这可能在某种程度上与您的工作有关。
They do have the parallel polis, is that in a totalitarian society, you can create an experimental society that functions according to a different set of rules in at least one area.
他们确实有平行城邦，在极权社会中，你可以创建一个实验社会，在至少一个领域根据一组不同的规则运作。
It might be economically different or socially different or politically different or religiously different — more different than other areas.
它可能在经济上不同、在社会上不同、在政治上不同或在宗教上不同——比其他地区更加不同。
Then when the totalitarian society collapses under its own weight all around you, you have a working model of the future.
然后，当极权社会在你周围的自身重压下崩溃时，你就有了未来的工作模式。
I started there, and I looked at some societies that are very close to being totalitarian in the sense that the people have no influence on the larger politics of it, and looked at those kinds of projects there.
我从那里开始，我研究了一些非常接近极权主义的社会，因为人们对其更大的政治没有影响力，并研究了那里的此类项目。
Then I argued that, actually, that has implications not just for totalitarian societies, but for societies wherever a democracy is broken or part of a democracy is broken.
然后我认为，实际上，这不仅对极权社会有影响，而且对民主被破坏或民主的一部分被破坏的社会也有影响。
You can see an imaginative project like that can be very important.
你可以看到这样一个富有想象力的项目非常重要。
Then I argued that it doesn’t even have to be a nonstate actor.
然后我认为它甚至不必是非国家行为者。
It can be a state actor that creates a project that imagines something into being.
它可以是一个国家行为者创建一个将某些事物想象成现实的项目。
Masha Gessen, thank you very much.
玛莎·格森，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Q&A
问答
You mentioned that there is no shame in being miserable in Russia, or there’s no shame in misery.
你提到在俄罗斯，苦难并不可耻，或者说苦难并不可耻。
I was wondering how jubilation or excessive cheer was viewed.
我想知道人们如何看待欢呼或过度的欢呼。
With suspicion.
带着怀疑。
That’s a fair question.
这是一个公平的问题。
Yes, unless it’s a collective, drunken moment of exhilaration, yes, excessive cheer is viewed with suspicion.
是的，除非这是一个集体的、醉酒的兴奋时刻，是的，过度的欢呼会被怀疑。
One might be suspected of being an optimistic idiot.
一个人可能会被怀疑是一个乐观的白痴。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
I apologize for knowing what I was going to ask you beforehand, but you recently wrote an article for the New Yorker in which you critique Pete Buttigieg’s speech where he talks about his experience growing up as a homosexual, where he’s like, “If I could find the part of me that was gay and cut it out, I would have done that.”
我很抱歉事先知道我要问你什么，但你最近为《纽约客》写了一篇文章，其中你批评了皮特·布蒂吉格的演讲，他在演讲中谈到了他作为同性恋者的成长经历，他说，“如果我能找到我身上同性恋的部分并把它剪掉，我就会这么做。”
You were saying that it’s problematic because it posits that heterosexuality is the better default, and you have to be forced to be gay in order to be accepted.
你说这是有问题的，因为它假定异性恋是更好的默认选择，你必须被迫成为同性恋才能被接受。
But I was wondering if you think that that essentialist reduction stuff is useful in certain cases as a political tool, like, for example, modern Russia with the situation that’s going on there.
但我想知道你是否认为本质主义的还原论在某些情况下作为政治工具有用，例如，现代俄罗斯正在发生的情况。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Yeah, it has proven to be an extremely effective political tool.
是的，事实证明它是一个极其有效的政治工具。
This is the narrative.
这就是叙述。
I want to make it clear, I’m not criticizing Pete Buttigieg’s personal story.
我想澄清的是，我并不是在批评皮特·布蒂吉格的个人故事。
Obviously, his story is his story.
显然，他的故事就是他的故事。
I’m criticizing his choice to use this narrative that is a very traditional gay rights narrative that is rooted in the argument of choicelessness.
我批评他选择使用这种非常传统的同性恋权利叙事，其根源在于无选择的论点。
Implicit in that argument is this idea that gay people should have rights because they didn’t have any other option and that if sexuality were choosable, then that choice shouldn’t be validated.
该论点隐含的观点是，同性恋者应该拥有权利，因为他们没有任何其他选择，如果性取向是可以选择的，那么这种选择就不应该得到验证。
I find that deeply problematic because I think it doesn’t correspond to everybody’s human experience of sexuality.
我发现这有很大的问题，因为我认为它并不符合每个人的性经历。
I also think that it is ultimately not progressive.
我也认为它最终不是进步的。
It ultimately is not liberatory.
它最终不是解放的。
But it is, of course, as a reductionist narrative, very useful, and it has proven to be politically, at least in the short term, very effective in this country.
但当然，作为一种还原论的叙述，它非常有用，而且事实证明，它在政治上（至少在短期内）在这个国家非常有效。
A lot of the gains in gay rights have been rooted in that argument.
同性恋权利的许多进展都源于这一论点。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Hi.
你好。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
If America were to collapse as the Soviet Union did, how would you posit that resulting states might emerge from that?
如果美国像苏联那样崩溃，你会如何假设由此产生的国家可能会从中崛起？
If America just broke apart as a union and different states were forced to form into new countries, as happened after the fall of the Soviet Union.
如果美国作为一个联盟解体，不同的国家被迫组成新的国家，就像苏联解体后发生的那样。
Right.
正确的。
I don’t know that that’s a great analogy.
我不知道这是一个很好的类比。
The Soviet Union was genuinely an empire.
苏联是名副其实的帝国。
It was just a contiguous empire, so not everybody recognizes it as such.
它只是一个连续的帝国，所以并不是每个人都承认它是这样的。
But there was an imperial power.
但有一个皇权。
There were many, many, many colonized people.
有很多很多很多的殖民地人民。
The borders between those colonies were known.
这些殖民地之间的边界是已知的。
And in every colony, there was a national identity that could be resurrected and a national narrative that could be created.
在每个殖民地，都有可以复活的民族身份和可以创造的民族叙事。
It’s not true in this country, right?
在这个国家却不是这样，对吧？
We have borders between states, but we don’t have national identities in states, and we don’t have clear ethnic majorities in different states that would create that kind of national narrative.
各州之间有边界，但各州之间没有民族认同，不同州之间也没有明显的种族多数来创造这种民族叙事。
So I’m having trouble with the parallel, sorry.
所以我在并行方面遇到了麻烦，抱歉。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Let me ask you one while the microphone is coming.
让我趁着麦克风来问你一个问题。
If Ukraine became a free, successful democratic state, would autocracy in Russia go away?
如果乌克兰成为一个自由、成功的民主国家，俄罗斯的独裁统治会消失吗？
No.
不。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Wouldn’t it be such an example that —
难道不是这样一个例子吗——
No relation.
没有关系。
No relation?
没有关系？
That’s a great question, actually, because it is a very common fallacy, a fallacy that comes from Russia, which fails to understand .
实际上，这是一个很好的问题，因为这是一个非常常见的谬论，这个谬论来自俄罗斯，俄罗斯无法理解。
.
。
.
。
both the Kremlin and the Russian opposition, actually, fail to understand that Ukraine is a separate country with, at this point, a very different political culture.
事实上，克里姆林宫和俄罗斯反对派都无法理解乌克兰是一个独立的国家，目前其政治文化截然不同。
It’s been a generation since the Soviet Union collapsed.
苏联解体已经过去一代人的时间了。
Ukraine has spent that generation — no, more than generation — 28 years.
乌克兰已经度过了这一代人——不，不止一代人——28年。
Ukraine has spent that period in a transitional state.
乌克兰在那段时期处于过渡状态。
It hasn’t been a functional democracy, but it has also not been an autocracy in that long.
它不是一个功能性的民主国家，但也不是一个专制国家那么久。
That has created a completely different set of expectations and a really very different culture.
这创造了一套完全不同的期望和一种非常不同的文化。
I feel it when I go to Ukraine, when I talk to people and I interview people.
当我去乌克兰，当我与人们交谈并采访人们时，我感受到了这一点。
You realize that there are different kinds of relationships of trust.
您意识到存在不同类型的信任关系。
There are very different expectations of the possibility of political action.
对于政治行动的可能性，人们有着截然不同的期望。
There are very different expectations of accountability despite the very high level of corruption in Ukraine.
尽管乌克兰的腐败现象非常严重，但人们对问责制的期望却截然不同。
Whereas Russia has basically spent the last 20 years as an autocracy.
而俄罗斯过去20年基本上是一个独裁国家。
Russians have this magical thinking — both the Kremlin and the opposition have this magical idea that Ukraine is like a smaller mirror of Russia, and whatever happens in Ukraine is then going to happen in Russia.
俄罗斯人有这种神奇的想法——克里姆林宫和反对派都有这种神奇的想法，即乌克兰就像俄罗斯的一面小镜子，无论乌克兰发生什么，俄罗斯也会发生。
Now to the question up front.
现在回答前面的问题。
You mentioned how internet access in Russia can offer a little bit of an escape from this very tightly controlled public control over the communications.
您提到俄罗斯的互联网接入可以让人们摆脱对通信的严格控制的公共控制。
Are there ways in which you think the somewhat greater freedom among these online communities has led to different cultures or different norms from those that have been established under the strict totalitarian regime?
您认为这些在线社区中更大的自由是否导致了与严格的极权政权下建立的文化或规范不同的文化或规范？
Yeah, it’s a great question.
是的，这是一个很好的问题。
I don’t want to exaggerate because, as you know, we’ve gone from this dominant idea of the internet is inherently democratic to this dominant idea that the internet is inherently undemocratic.
我不想夸大其词，因为如您所知，我们已经从互联网本质上民主的主导观念转变为互联网本质上不民主的主导观念。
It’s not inherently anything, but Alexei Navalny has been able to use his online presence to circumvent the Kremlin’s control over the public sphere.
这本质上并不是什么，但阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼已经能够利用他的在线存在来规避克里姆林宫对公共领域的控制。
That has required a set of conditions, the most important of which is just he’s very good at what he does, and he found the one thing that millions and millions of Russians find compelling, which is proving corruption and validating their sense of constantly being lied to and stolen from.
这需要一系列条件，其中最重要的是他非常擅长自己所做的事情，而且他发现了数以百万计的俄罗斯人认为引人注目的一件事，那就是证明腐败并证实他们不断被欺骗和被盗的感觉。
But there are also limitations to that kind of organizing, and I find those limitations fascinating because, when we talk about organizing, we usually assume that there’s a collective action at work.
但这种组织也有局限性，我发现这些局限性很有趣，因为当我们谈论组织时，我们通常假设有一种集体行动在起作用。
Politics is acting with others.
政治就是与他人一起行动。
I think that there’s a very different kind of organizing that Navalny does because Navalny will publish an appeal on YouTube, and people will go out and protest in more than a hundred towns around Russia at the same time, and it looks like collective action.
我认为纳瓦尔尼所做的组织是一种非常不同的组织，因为纳瓦尔尼会在YouTube上发布呼吁，人们会同时在俄罗斯各地的一百多个城镇进行抗议，看起来像是集体行动。
But I would argue that it’s not because it’s one individual at a time watching the video on YouTube, going out into the public square, and going home without actually having done anything together with any other people in their town, except for being present in the square at that particular moment.
但我认为，这并不是因为每次有一个人在 YouTube 上观看视频，走到公共广场，然后回家，而没有与镇上的任何其他人一起做任何事情，除了在那个特定时刻出现在广场上。
That is completely different from actual political organizing and collective action as we know it.
这与我们所知的实际政治组织和集体行动完全不同。
Does that distinction matter?
这种区别重要吗？
I think it does.
我认为确实如此。
I think that the experience of physically, and on an ongoing basis, interacting with other people in the political space is essential for politics.
我认为，在政治空间中与其他人持续互动的实际体验对于政治至关重要。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Yes?
是的？
Suppose tensions rise substantially between Russia and the West, perhaps to the level of open military conflict.
假设俄罗斯和西方之间的紧张局势大幅升级，或许达到公开军事冲突的程度。
Is it more likely that Russia cuts off Western access to networks or vice versa?
俄罗斯切断西方网络接入的可能性更大，还是反之亦然？
And would you predict it’s because of cybersecurity and hacking or more because of access to these political organizations and journalistic information?
您是否预测这是因为网络安全和黑客攻击，还是更多因为访问这些政治组织和新闻信息？
Right.
正确的。
I think that Russia is very likely to cordon off its internet.
我认为俄罗斯很有可能封锁其互联网。
I think that the pretext would be cybersecurity, which may not be quite so much of a pretext.
我认为借口是网络安全，但这可能不是一个借口。
I think that the effect, and the desired effect, would be total informational isolation of the Russian public.
我认为效果，以及期望的效果，将是俄罗斯公众的完全信息隔离。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Yes, way in the back.
是的，就在后面。
While the mic is going, my quick question: if you were advising a hedge fund as to what they could learn from training of talent in the world of Soviet mathematics, what would you tell them?
当麦克风响起时，我的快速问题是：如果你向一家对冲基金提供建议，告诉他们可以从苏联数学世界的人才培训中学到什么，你会告诉他们什么？
I would tell them that —
我会告诉他们——
In the abstract.
在抽象中。
I would actually tell them that maybe it’s better to have not quite such amazingly trained talent, but to live in a freer society.
我实际上会告诉他们，也许最好不要拥有如此受过如此惊人训练的人才，而是生活在一个更自由的社会中。
In the back, yes?
在后面，是吗？
Why is there currently not very much control over the internet in Soviet Russia?
为什么苏联目前对互联网没有太多控制？
In Russia, sorry.
在俄罗斯，抱歉。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
It actually goes to what I said earlier about Putin’s economy of means.
这实际上与我之前所说的普京的经济手段有关。
There’s as much control as is necessary, for the internet oversight agency has shut down access to a number of opposition websites.
由于互联网监管机构已经关闭了对一些反对派网站的访问，因此需要尽可能多的控制。
That means the vast majority of Russians don’t have access even if they maybe want to.
这意味着绝大多数俄罗斯人即使想要也无法访问。
They don’t have access to anything that contradicts the dominant narrative.
他们无法接触到任何与主流叙事相矛盾的东西。
But the internet is .
但互联网是。
.
。
.
。
It’s not a push media.
这不是推送媒体。
The internet is a place where you don’t get answers to questions you don’t ask.
互联网是一个你不问问题就得不到答案的地方。
I think that the Kremlin is sensitive to that even if they can’t necessarily articulate it.
我认为克里姆林宫对此很敏感，即使他们不一定能清楚地表达出来。
There’s not a whole lot of danger coming out of the internet for the Kremlin.
对于克里姆林宫来说，互联网并没有带来太多危险。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Two over here.
两个在这里。
In the context of your current project on alternative polis, was it?
在您当前的替代城邦项目中，是吗？
Parallel polis.
平行城邦。
Parallel polis.
平行城邦。
What do you see as example or examples of that currently in Russia or in America?
您认为目前俄罗斯或美国的例子是什么？
And do you see the internet as a vehicle for that?
您认为互联网是实现这一目标的工具吗？
Or in what you were saying about this new mobilization not actually being a collective action, but being this individual action, do you think that that actually detracts from parallel polis?
或者你所说的这种新的动员实际上不是集体行动，而是个人行动，你认为这实际上有损于平行城邦吗？
Yeah.
是的。
It has to be not just parallel, but polis.
它不仅必须是平行的，而且必须是城邦的。
Polis can’t be homogenous.
城邦不可能是同质的。
There has to be some sort of cooperation across difference for a parallel polis, or any kind of polis, to exist.
平行城邦或任何类型的城邦要想存在，就必须存在某种跨越差异的合作。
That’s something that doesn’t happen a whole lot on the internet.
这种事情在互联网上并不常见。
I also think that, again, politics is something that has a physical dimension.
我还认为，政治是具有物理维度的东西。
I’m only looking at actually existing physical projects.
我只关注实际存在的物理项目。
In the States, I’m looking at a particular complicated project in Detroit that’s an urban farm/public space/history/community-based economy project.
在美国，我正在研究底特律的一个特别复杂的项目，这是一个城市农场/公共空间/历史/社区经济项目。
I’m not actually looking at any in Russia.
我实际上并没有在俄罗斯寻找任何东西。
The other question on this side.
另一个问题在这一边。
Is there good Russian food in New York?
纽约有好吃的俄罗斯菜吗？
And where can I find it?
我在哪里可以找到它？
Is there good Russian food?
有好吃的俄罗斯菜吗？
Yeah, I like Mari Vanna, which is a restaurant on East 21st, I think.
是的，我喜欢 Mari Vanna，我想这是 East 21st 的一家餐厅。
It’s pricey but really good.
它很贵但是真的很好。
Last question comes from me.
最后一个问题来自我。
Obviously, there are many famous works of Russian literature, but if you had to recommend to us something in particular we ought to read that’s special to you and maybe not something which everyone reads, what would that be and why?
显然，俄罗斯文学有很多著名作品，但如果你必须向我们推荐一些特别的东西，我们应该读对你来说很特别的东西，也许不是每个人都读的东西，那会是什么，为什么？
I don’t know that the books I would recommend have been translated to English.
我不知道我推荐的书已经被翻译成英文了。
Tell us one nonetheless, and I’ll give you one more question then.
尽管如此，请告诉我们一个，然后我再问你一个问题。
Okay, two books I would recommend: One is Procherk, which is “omission” or “elision,” by Lydia Chukovskaya, which is an amazing book about the absence of her husband.
好的，我会推荐两本书：一本是《Procherk》，即“遗漏”或“省略”，作者是莉迪亚·丘科夫斯卡娅（Lydia Chukovskaya），这是一本关于她丈夫缺席的精彩书。
He was arrested when they were quite young.
他们很小的时候他就被捕了。
I think she was 25.
我认为她25岁。
She never saw him again.
她再也没有见过他。
She was a great writer who wrote many great books, but this is a book that she kept going back to over the course of, I think, 45 years, up until her death, trying to write it.
她是一位伟大的作家，写了很多伟大的书，但我想，45 年来，直到她去世，她一直在回顾这本书，试图写出它。
It’s a book about absence.
这是一本关于缺席的书。
But it’s also a book about the absolute senselessness of terror.
但这也是一本关于绝对毫无意义的恐怖的书。
I think that’s one of the hardest things for a writer to convey because how do you write about something that is senseless?
我认为这是作家最难传达的事情之一，因为你如何写一些毫无意义的东西？
The moment you start writing about it, you’re imbuing it with meaning.
当你开始写它的那一刻，你就赋予了它意义。
It’s actually very, very hard, and that book succeeds.
这实际上非常非常困难，而那本书成功了。
Another book that I love I think has been translated into English.
我认为另一本我喜欢的书已经被翻译成英文了。
It’s by Dina Kaminskaya.
作者是迪娜·卡明斯卡娅。
It’s called Final Judgment.
这就是所谓的“最终审判”。
She was a defense attorney who defended dissidents in the Soviet Union and ended up having to immigrate to this country quite late.
她是一名辩护律师，为苏联持不同政见者辩护，但很晚才移民到这个国家。
I think she was in her 60s or 70s when she finally got forced out of the country.
我想当她最终被迫离开这个国家时，她已经60多岁或70多岁了。
But it’s an incredible anatomy of the corruption of not just the Soviet court system, but of the possibility of legal thinking in the Soviet Union.
但这不仅是对苏联法院系统腐败的令人难以置信的剖析，也是对苏联法律思维可能性的剖析。
I think it’s the best book about the Soviet system that I know.
我认为这是我所知道的关于苏联制度的最好的书。
Also, fun fact: Dina Kaminskaya was Dimitri Simes’s mother.
另外，有趣的事实是：迪娜·卡明斯卡娅 (Dina Kaminskaya) 是迪米特里·西姆斯 (Dimitri Simes) 的母亲。
Final question: the new cold war with Russia — how much did America provoke Russia with NATO expansion, electoral influence in Ukraine, and even earlier, the Serbia-Kosovo intervention?
最后一个问题：与俄罗斯的新冷战——美国的北约扩张、对乌克兰选举的影响，甚至更早的塞尔维亚-科索沃干预，在多大程度上激怒了俄罗斯？
Who started it, in a sense?
从某种意义上说，是谁发起的？
I don’t have a lot of patience for the NATO expansion argument for the simple reason that it fails to take into account the countries that joined NATO.
我对北约东扩的论点没有太多耐心，原因很简单，它没有考虑到加入北约的国家。
All the countries that joined NATO — without exception — asked to join NATO, begged to join NATO, because they wanted to have protection against Russia, which had colonized them and of which they had good reason to suspect might want to colonize them again, and so they wanted to be a part of NATO.
所有加入北约的国家无一例外地要求加入北约，恳求加入北约，因为他们希望得到保护，免受俄罗斯的侵害，俄罗斯曾经殖民过他们，他们有充分的理由怀疑俄罗斯可能想再次殖民他们，所以他们想成为北约的一部分。
This idea that the United States provoked Russia by taking those countries under its wing completely ignores the agency and desire of the people of those countries.
美国通过拉拢这些国家来挑衅俄罗斯的想法完全无视这些国家人民的意愿和愿望。
Kosovo, I think, was huge.
我认为科索沃很大。
I think that we still have to reckon with the corrosive effect of the illegal bombing campaign in Kosovo, both on Russia but also on American politics and on international politics and politics of military intervention.
我认为，我们仍然必须考虑科索沃非法轰炸活动对俄罗斯、美国政治以及国际政治和军事干预政治的腐蚀影响。
M.
M。
Gessen, thank you very much.
格森，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。