Masaaki Suzuki on Interpreting Bach (Ep. 204)
Special thanks to Trace Capital Management for sponsoring this transcript.
特别感谢 Trace Capital Management 赞助此文字记录。
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m here in New York City with Masaaki Suzuki.
今天我和铃木正明一起来到纽约。
Masaaki Suzuki is one of the greatest musical creators and producers of our time.
铃木正明是我们这个时代最伟大的音乐创作者和制作人之一。
He has recorded the entire set of Bach sacred cantatas, which in my collection amounts to, I think, 55 compact discs.
他录制了整套巴赫神圣康塔塔，在我的收藏中，我认为总共有 55 张光盘。
He has recorded all of the secular cantatas.
他录制了所有世俗康塔塔。
These are generally acknowledged to be the most important and best recordings of Bach’s cantata music ever.
这些唱片被普遍认为是巴赫康塔塔音乐史上最重要、最好的唱片。
He is recording the complete organ music of Bach, so he also is a world-class organist, and he is recording the complete harpsichord music of Bach, works that are commonly acknowledged to be in the top tier.
他在录制巴赫的管风琴全集，所以他也是世界级的管风琴演奏家，而且他在录制巴赫的羽管键琴全集，都是公认的顶级作品。
There’s simply no one else I know of with this kind of record of production and quality and dedication and inspiration.
据我所知，没有人能拥有如此高的生产、质量、奉献精神和灵感。
He also has recorded a good deal of Mozart, Handel, and many other 18th-century composers.
他还录制了大量莫扎特、亨德尔和许多其他 18 世纪作曲家的作品。
He founded the Bach Collegium Japan in 1990.
他于1990年创立了日本巴赫学院。
He also teaches as a professor at Yale University and does many other things as well.
他还在耶鲁大学担任教授并从事许多其他工作。
Masaaki Suzuki, welcome.
铃木正明，欢迎光临。
Thank you for invitation.
感谢您的邀请。
It’s a really great pleasure to come here.
来到这里真的很高兴。
On Bach
论巴赫
I have many questions for you, but to start with Bach — St. John’s Passion, 1724.
我有很多问题要问你，但先从巴赫的《约翰受难曲》开始，1724 年。
If you had to explain to us, in its most fundamental sense, what was new in St. John’s Passion that Bach did?
如果你必须从最基本的意义上向我们解释一下，巴赫在《约翰受难曲》中做了什么新鲜事？
What was the nature of that innovation?
这项创新的本质是什么？
Probably no one expected at the time to have that dramatic passion because the passion tradition derived from reading the Bible in the liturgy.
当时可能没有人预料到会有如此戏剧性的激情，因为激情传统源于在礼拜仪式中阅读圣经。
Firstly, it was only thought of as a tool of Bible reading, but not simply reading; instead of that, a citation with some tones.
首先，它只是被认为是读经的工具，而不是简单的阅读；取而代之的是带有一些语气的引文。
That was developed to the music, passion music.
那就发展为音乐，激情音乐。
By the time of Bach, that was already developed as a kind of oratorio passion.
到巴赫时代，这已经发展成为一种清唱剧激情。
That was actually a very dramatic experience already.
这实际上已经是一次非常戏剧性的经历了。
Still, in Bach’s time, the one week before Easter, the passion of Johann Walter was still performed.
尽管如此，在巴赫时代，复活节前一周，约翰·沃尔特的激情仍在上演。
That means, really, only F major chord from the beginning until the end.
这实际上意味着从开始到结束只有 F 大调和弦。
Just to recite all the Bible texts and so on.
只是背诵所有圣经经文等等。
That was still performed.
那还是被执行了。
The very first passion of Bach in the Leipzig time was the St. John’s Passion, which was a really shocking experience for everyone, I thought.
巴赫在莱比锡时期的第一首受难曲是《圣约翰受难曲》，我认为这对每个人来说都是一次非常令人震惊的经历。
In terms of choral work, what is new in that passion?
就合唱工作而言，这种热情有何新意？
Choral work?
合唱作品？
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
The structure consists of the choir as the turba, the mass of people, the shouting and so on.
其结构由头巾式的唱诗班、人群、喊叫等组成。
At the same time, the choir was also supposed to sing the chorale, so the multifunctions, all the time, chorale.
同时，合唱团也应该唱众赞歌，所以多功能，一直都是众赞歌。
Do you think of St. John’s Passion as a Christian work, or you conduct it as a Lutheran work, or drawing from a particular gospel?
您是否认为《约翰受难记》是一部基督教作品，或者您将其视为一部路德教作品，或者取材于某部特定的福音书？
How do you think about that theologically?
你在神学上如何看待这个问题？
My point of view is that the St. John’s Passion — we are doing this work as just simple, general sacred music, sacred work.
我的观点是，《约翰受难曲》——我们所做的这项工作只是简单的、一般的神圣音乐、神圣的工作。
We are performing this music not in the liturgy anymore, and we are doing it in the concert.
我们不再在礼拜仪式中演奏这种音乐，而是在音乐会中演奏。
There are plenty of ways to accept or receive or appreciate this music.
有很多方法可以接受或欣赏这种音乐。
We are doing it simply as musicians, to do our best, to do, sound-wise and text-wise, everything as good as possible.
我们只是作为音乐家来做这件事，尽我们最大的努力，在声音和文字方面，一切都尽可能好。
I think the music can work afterwards to the individuals according to their situation or thoughts.
我认为音乐可以根据个人的情况或想法事后发挥作用。
On religion and conducting
关于宗教和行为
Your own background is Calvinist.
你自己的背景是加尔文主义者。
Does that in any way shape how you approach the work?
这是否会影响你的工作方式？
Yes.
是的。
That’s a really good question, actually.
实际上，这是一个很好的问题。
I was asked many times, “Why are you not Lutheran?”
很多次有人问我：“你为什么不是路德宗？”
There’s almost a predestination in the work.
工作中几乎有一种宿命。
Jesus seems to know what’s coming more than in other parts of the Bible.
耶稣似乎比圣经的其他部分更知道即将发生的事情。
Exactly, yes.
没错，是的。
Actually, I’m very grateful to be a Calvinist because Calvin was probably the — I don’t know.
事实上，我很庆幸自己是加尔文主义者，因为加尔文可能是 —— 我不知道。
I’m no theologian, I’m no historian, but still, according to my knowledge, Calvin was one of the first reformers who acknowledged the value of the activity and culture of this world, not only in that world in heaven.
我不是神学家，我不是历史学家，但据我所知，加尔文仍然是最早承认这个世界的活动和文化的价值的改革家之一，而不仅仅是在天堂的那个世界。
I think it is very often said Calvin was not so sympathetic to the music or culture or whatever, but that is not true.
我认为人们经常说加尔文对音乐或文化或其他什么不太同情，但事实并非如此。
He limited the congregational singing only to the psalm, but other than church, outside of the church, he has helped much cultural activity, for example, publish the psalms or arrangements, and so on.
他把会众的歌唱仅限于唱诗篇，但除了教会之外，在教会之外，他也帮助了很多文化活动，比如出版诗篇或者编曲等等。
He was also helpful to inspire the musical activity in this world.
他还有助于激发这个世界的音乐活动。
I think in this way, we can evaluate the old musical work or whatever cultural activity in this world.
我认为通过这种方式，我们可以评价古老的音乐作品或这个世界上的任何文化活动。
The other, under the very big notion of the general grace of God.
另一个是在上帝普遍恩典的伟大概念下。
When Bach is in Köthen in what was East Germany, which was Calvinist at the time, but he’s composing mainly secular works, how do you frame that?
当巴赫在东德的克滕（Köthen）时，当时是加尔文主义者，但他主要创作世俗作品，你如何看待这一点？
Why did he do that?
他为什么这么做？
Oh, he didn’t have a chance to compose any Lutheran cantata at the time.
哦，当时他还没有机会创作任何路德康塔塔。
From one side, he must have been very happy to compose the organ works, the instrumental works, also secular cantatas and so on, but probably he wished to do more work in the Lutheran world, or the Lutheran church and so on.
从一方面来看，他一定很乐意创作管风琴作品、器乐作品、世俗康塔塔等，但也许他希望在路德教世界或路德教会等方面创作更多的作品。
That’s why he moved to Leipzig, I think.
我想这就是他搬到莱比锡的原因。
Let’s go back and just talk about your career, your history a bit.
让我们回过头来谈谈你的职业生涯和你的历史吧。
You’re 12 years old, and all of a sudden, you hear Karl Richter’s recording of Bach’s B-Minor Mass.
你 12 岁，突然听到卡尔·里希特 (Karl Richter) 录制的巴赫 B 小调弥撒曲。
Yes.
是的。
How did you come upon that, and how did you feel at the time?
您是如何想到这一点的？当时您有何感受？
That was really stupid.
那真是太愚蠢了。
I was very, very excited, not only with that music, but also, I got quite big stereo equipment from my father.
我非常非常兴奋，不仅是音乐，而且我从父亲那里得到了相当大的立体声设备。
Then I was very excited to listen to whatever with the headphones.
然后我很兴奋能用耳机听任何东西。
Was also very first experience with headphones.
也是第一次体验耳机。
Anyway, the B-Minor Mass was so fantastic, so wonderful, but I didn’t understand anything from the text that was from the music.
无论如何，B小调弥撒是如此精彩，如此精彩，但我从音乐中的文字中听不懂任何内容。
That music was much too complicated.
那个音乐太复杂了。
The only thing is, I played a lot of trumpet in a brass band.
唯一的问题是，我在铜管乐队中吹过很多小号。
That’s why the trumpet playing by the German trumpeter Adolf Scherbaum was really fascinating in the B-Minor Mass.
这就是为什么德国小号手阿道夫·谢尔鲍姆（Adolf Scherbaum）在B小调弥撒中演奏的小号非常迷人。
I actually repeatedly listened only to the Gloria.
事实上我反复只听Gloria。
Anyway, that B-Minor Mass is really a wonderful encounter with Bach’s music.
不管怎样，那首B小调弥撒确实是一次与巴赫音乐的美妙邂逅。
On Karl Richter and other early Bach recordings
关于卡尔·里希特和其他早期巴赫唱片
How was your musical ear back then?
当时你的音乐耳朵怎么样？
The Richter recording — I think of it as a little bit of a mix of overblown and stiff, even though it’s pretty good, right?
里克特的录音 — 我认为它有点夸张和僵硬，尽管它相当不错，对吧？
It’s not what people would listen to now.
这不是现在人们会听的。
Did you have a sense of that back then?
你当时有这样的感觉吗？
Or were you just blown away?
或者你只是被震撼了？
No, no. For other interviews, I have listened again to that record recently.
不，不。对于其他采访，我最近又听了那张唱片。
That was completely different, and it is not acceptable at all for my ears.
那是完全不同的，我的耳朵根本无法接受。
Karl Richter must have been a really wonderful musician.
卡尔·里希特一定是一位非常出色的音乐家。
Also, he played the harpsichord by himself and conducted, for example, St. Matthew’s Passion without seeing any scores.
此外，他还自己演奏羽管键琴，并在没有看任何乐谱的情况下指挥了《马太受难曲》等作品。
That’s a really amazing thing.
这真是一件了不起的事情。
Anyway, that’s his way of music making, completely modern.
不管怎样，这就是他的音乐制作方式，完全现代。
Not only modern, but the machine-like notes by notes and so on.
不仅现代，而且还有像机器一样的音符等等。
That is really not acceptable anymore, but at that time, that made, probably, a lot of excitement for the audience, and this is very nice, I think.
这实在是不能接受了，但在当时，这可能让观众兴奋不已，我认为这非常好。
Do you think there are any older recordings of Bach, say, of the B-Minor Mass or the passions that have held up?
您认为是否有任何巴赫的旧录音，例如 B 小调弥撒或一直持续的激情？
Before the Dutch movement for original instruments.
在荷兰原创乐器运动之前。
Yes.
是的。
I listened to, for example, the Mengelberg St. Matthew’s Passion a couple of times.
例如，我听了几次门格尔贝格的《圣马太受难曲》。
That’s a very famous example in history.
这是历史上非常有名的例子。
That is, of course, completely different, but probably at that time, it was a very beautiful performance, I think.
当然，那是完全不同的，但我认为可能在当时，这是一场非常美丽的表演。
That is quite romantic.
那是相当浪漫的事。
The tempo is completely slow.
节奏完全慢了。
I have no idea how it was accepted, but actually, it did work out at that time.
我不知道它是如何被接受的，但事实上，它当时确实有效。
This sense of value about the performance is changing all the time.
这种对表演的价值感一直在变化。
I think we belong to a quite different generation, but at that time, it must have been very right and very stimulating to do the Bach music.
我认为我们属于完全不同的一代，但在那个时候，演奏巴赫音乐一定是非常正确和非常刺激的。
How was it you decided to study early music in the Netherlands?
您是如何决定在荷兰学习早期音乐的？
Was it just you wanted to study music and then you learned of the movement?
是不是你只是想学习音乐然后才了解乐章？
Or you went there because of the movement?
或者你是因为运动才去那里的？
No. Actually, I was completely fascinated by the organ itself.
不，事实上，我完全被这个管风琴本身迷住了。
That’s why I started to play organ, and I got lessons when I was a teenager before university.
这就是我开始演奏风琴的原因，我在大学之前十几岁的时候就开始学习演奏风琴。
Then I wanted to study more organ.
然后我想研究更多的器官。
My first organ teacher was a Belgian priest, actually, in Osaka.
我的第一位管风琴老师实际上是大阪的一位比利时牧师。
I told him that I wanted to be an organist and so on.
我告诉他我想成为一名风琴师等等。
“But listen, Masaaki, there are no good organs in Japan at all, so that is not a good idea to study organ here in Japan.
“但是听着，正明，日本根本没有好的管风琴，所以在日本学习管风琴并不是一个好主意。
Why don’t you study composition?”
你为什么不学作曲呢？”
So, I did study composition in the university.
所以，我在大学里学习了作文。
That was a very good career, very good process to understand the music.
那是一个非常好的职业，非常好的理解音乐的过程。
Then in between, I just happened to meet the harpsichordist called Motoko Nabeshima, Japanese, the first-generation harpsichordist who studied with Gustav Leonhardt in Amsterdam.
其间，我偶然遇到了日本羽管键琴演奏家锅岛素子，她是第一代羽管键琴演奏家，曾在阿姆斯特丹跟随古斯塔夫·莱昂哈特学习。
She was a really genius person.
她真是一个天才。
She spoke more than six languages in Europe, and she had spent quite a long time in Europe.
她在欧洲会说六种以上语言，并且在欧洲呆了很长时间。
She came back to Japan, and I met her, and I got a lesson from her.
她回到日本，我遇见了她，我从她身上得到了教训。
That really changed my life.
这确实改变了我的生活。
She introduced me to Ton Koopman, who was a schoolmate of hers.
她把我介绍给了她的同学托恩·库普曼。
They were together in Gustav Leonhardt’s class.
他们一起在古斯塔夫·莱昂哈特的班上。
I went to Amsterdam, and I went to the Ton Koopman concert on the day of my arrival.
我去了阿姆斯特丹，到达当天我去了Ton Koopman 音乐会。
That was a really shocking world, so fresh and so exciting.
那真是一个令人震惊的世界，如此新鲜，如此令人兴奋。
I decided to come to Amsterdam, and that was a very good decision, I thought.
我决定来阿姆斯特丹，我想这是一个非常好的决定。
On becoming a conductor
成为一名指挥
If you started with the organ and harpsichord, how was it, then, you came to conducting?
如果您从管风琴和羽管键琴开始，那么您后来从事指挥的感觉如何？
Conducting actually has been always outside of my idea because when you perform cantatas or whatever of Bach’s ensemble music, someone must lead, very possibly from the harpsichord, as Bach did, and so on.
指挥实际上一直在我的想法之外，因为当你演奏康塔塔或任何巴赫的合奏音乐时，必须有人指挥，很可能是用羽管键琴指挥，就像巴赫所做的那样，等等。
I did it in that way.
我就是这样做的。
Gradually, I made some ensemble with my brother and my brother’s colleague, the string players, and so on, and then we simply started to perform the cantatas, one by one.
渐渐地，我和我哥哥、我哥哥的同事、弦乐演奏者等组成了一些合奏，然后我们就开始一首一首地演奏康塔塔。
For example, I gave them some sign or some signature.
例如，我给了他们一些标志或签名。
My brother criticized all the time, “Oh, that is not clear.
哥哥总是批评说：哦，这不清楚。
That is not.” “All right, which tempo do you want?” Only through this kind of discussion, I became a conductor.
那不是。” “好吧，你想要什么节奏？”通过这样的讨论，我才成为一名指挥。
I’m not a conductor in a really traditional sense.
我不是真正传统意义上的指挥家。
Were people telling you, “You can only do one thing.
人们是否告诉你：“你只能做一件事。
It’s organ, harpsichord, or conducting.
它是管风琴、羽管键琴或指挥。
You have to choose one”?
你必须选择一个”？
Or everyone just let you do all of them?
还是每个人都让你做所有的事情？
Actually, these three are completely, I think, integrated, easily integrated.
事实上，我认为这三者是完全集成的，而且很容易集成。
But you do all three, right?
但你三个都做了，对吧？
Yes, but the harpsichord and organ are completely different instruments, but still based on the same idea of how to make music.
是的，但是羽管键琴和管风琴是完全不同的乐器，但仍然基于相同的音乐创作理念。
Also conducting, choir conducting especially — that’s exactly the same feeling as you play the fugue on the organ.
还有指挥，尤其是合唱团指挥——这和用管风琴演奏赋格曲的感觉一模一样。
For example, theme comes, now tenor, now soprano, something like that.
例如，主题来了，现在是男高音，现在是女高音，类似的事情。
That’s exactly the same.
那是完全一样的。
Only thing, the choir has text.
唯一的事情是，合唱团有文字。
So that’s much better than with the organ, I think.
所以我认为这比用风琴好得多。
Given how much music you’ve produced and how consistent the quality is, what is it you think you know about productivity that other people do not?
考虑到您制作了多少音乐以及质量的一致性，您认为您对生产力了解多少而其他人不了解？
I have no idea about other people’s, but the productivity — it’s only that the Bach music is so fascinating, I can’t stop working, simply.
我不知道其他人的情况如何，但生产力 ——只是巴赫的音乐太迷人了，我根本无法停止工作。
I never try to be productive whatsoever.
我从不尝试提高生产力。
I only want to pursue how to improve performance, how to realize this and that — the music of Bach, and not only Bach.
我只想追求如何提高演奏，如何实现这个那个——巴赫的音乐，而不仅仅是巴赫。
Only music is there, nothing else.
那里只有音乐，没有其他。
If you had to explain, what is it about the music of Bach that you still do not understand, what would that be?
如果你必须解释一下，巴赫的音乐中有什么是你仍然不明白的，那会是什么？
Bach’s music has always some kind of puzzles and enigma, so that you can never get an answer to all those unknown aspects of Bach.
巴赫的音乐总是充满某种谜题和谜团，因此你永远无法得到巴赫所有未知方面的答案。
For example, Kunst der Fuge, the Art of Fugue — we don’t know why he has really written it or in what kind of situation.
比如《赋格的艺术》——我们不知道他为什么写它，也不知道他是在什么样的情况下写的。
It was not finished.
事情还没有完成。
In the cantatas, for example, there are plenty of really places where it’s difficult to understand why he did something in this way and so on.
例如，在康塔塔中，有很多地方很难理解他为什么这样做等等。
In most of the cases, we can find some answers from the text, but still, it is not so easy to understand everything.
大多数情况下，我们都可以从文本中找到一些答案，但是，要理解一切却并不那么容易。
And that was very good.
这非常好。
How good a sense of the grasp of Bach’s mind do you feel you have?
您觉得自己对巴赫思想的把握有多好？
Or is he just a complete mystery to you?
或者他对你来说只是一个完全的谜？
Quite a mysterious feel, I think.
我想，有一种很神秘的感觉。
I’m trying to understand, and I’m trying to come closer to a sense of Bach’s mind, but actually, it is very, very difficult.
我试图理解，我试图更接近巴赫的思想，但实际上，这是非常非常困难的。
The more you work, the more distant you can get.
你工作得越多，你就能走得越远。
That’s true.
这是真的。
When you’re hiring for the Bach Collegium Japan, of course, they have to be wonderful musicians, but given the extreme productivity demands that will be placed on them, what is it you look for in the people you hire?
当您为日本巴赫学院招聘时，当然，他们必须是出色的音乐家，但考虑到对他们的极端生产力要求，您在雇用的人中寻找什么？
The most important aspect for musicians is probably how much they can devote to the music, sometimes, how much interest they have in that music.
对于音乐家来说，最重要的方面可能是他们能够为音乐投入多少，有时，他们对音乐有多少兴趣。
I do, for example, sit at auditions fairly often.
例如，我确实经常参加试镜。
Of course, I have to judge, sometimes, technical aspects — how good or technical.
当然，有时我必须判断技术方面——“有多好或多技术”。
Not only the techniques are the most important thing, but probably their interest and how much they can devote themselves to music.
不仅技术是最重要的，而且可能还有他们的兴趣以及他们对音乐的投入程度。
That is the most important thing.
这是最重要的事情。
I’m very happy to have, now, our members — orchestra and singers, but at the very beginning, they didn’t have any idea what Bach’s cantatas are, especially the choir, the choral music, this kind of ensemble music — how to do that.
我很高兴现在有我们的成员——管弦乐队和歌手，但一开始他们根本不知道巴赫的康塔塔是什么，特别是合唱团、合唱音乐、这种合奏音乐————怎么做。
During our work together, they have developed a lot.
在我们一起工作的过程中，他们都得到了很大的发展。
That was very nice.
那太好了。
They inspired me, again, this kind of vice versa.
他们再次启发了我，反之亦然。
The inspiration is very, very nice.
灵感非常非常好。
Do you think Japanese players understand Bach differently?
您认为日本演奏家对巴赫的理解有什么不同吗？
I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
But basically, Japanese people don’t have any Christian background or tradition in the country.
但基本上，日本人在该国没有任何基督教背景或传统。
Sometimes, I have to explain what the text says and so on, and also, this and that text comes from this and that text in the Bible.
有时，我必须解释一下经文所说的内容等等，而且，这个或那个文本来自圣经中的这个或那个文本。
This explanation is not possible in Europe, for example, because everything is already taken for granted so that no one can really explain about Jesus’s parables.
例如，这种解释在欧洲是不可能的，因为一切都已经被认为是理所当然的，所以没有人能够真正解释耶稣的比喻。
In Japan, I think it’s very good to have the chance to talk about those things.
在日本，我认为有机会谈论这些事情非常好。
Also, the German text is, of course, basically impossible to understand immediately in Japan.
另外，当然，在日本基本上不可能立即理解德语文本。
That’s why we need translations, or we provide all the time Japanese translations to the audience and also for the orchestra people, all the musicians.
这就是为什么我们需要翻译，或者我们一直为观众以及乐团人员和所有音乐家提供日语翻译。
But this kind of translation work is part of very important interpretation work because we read the Bible, for example, only through the translations.
但这种翻译工作是非常重要的解释工作的一部分，因为我们阅读圣经，例如，只能通过翻译。
No one in this world reads the original language in the Old Testament, the New Testament.
这个世界上没有人读过旧约《新约》的原文。
Actually, in order to make this kind of translation, we have to think on that, consider what it really means, and so on, all the time.
事实上，为了做出这样的翻译，我们必须一直思考这一点，考虑它的真正含义等等。
I try to make some translations of Bach’s cantatas.
我尝试翻译一些巴赫的康塔塔。
Some 20, 30 cantatas I have translated myself, but it’s very time consuming.
我自己翻译了大约20、30首康塔塔，但非常耗时。
That’s why I gave up recently, but we have a very good colleague to make good translations.
这就是我最近放弃的原因，但我们有一个非常好的同事可以做出很好的翻译。
With your Japanese background, do you think you approach Christianity differently?
以你的日本背景，你认为你对基督教的态度有什么不同吗？
I think so, quite different from any other.
我想是的，与其他人完全不同。
Well, actually, each of the countries have a different approach to Christianity or whatever religion, I think.
嗯，实际上，我认为每个国家对基督教或其他宗教都有不同的态度。
Japan is quite different from Korea.
日本与韩国有很大不同。
For example, Korea has many more Christians.
例如，韩国有更多的基督徒。
Now, it is said that 40 percent or 50 percent of the population is Christian, but in Japan it’s always said that only 1 percent or something.
现在，据说40%或50%的人口是基督徒，但在日本，人们总是说只有1%左右。
In spite of that, the Christian culture is very well known in Japan.
尽管如此，基督教文化在日本还是非常有名的。
Everyone knows what Christmas is, even Easter.
每个人都知道圣诞节是什么，甚至复活节。
They are quite known nowadays, but there are not so many Christians in Japan.
如今，他们已广为人知，但日本的基督徒并不多。
I thought formerly that is a big negative aspect, but I think that it’s not possible, really, to count who is a Christian, who is not a Christian.
我以前认为这是一个很大的消极方面，但我认为实际上不可能计算谁是基督徒，谁不是基督徒。
We perform the St. Matthew’s Passion regularly in Holy Week.
我们在圣周定期表演《马太受难曲》。
Every year for 20 years, we are doing it.
20年来，我们每年都在这样做。
Now, we have, regularly, 30 performances in Holy Week in the same venue.
现在，我们在圣周期间定期在同一地点举办 30 场演出。
Something like 5,000, 6,000 people are coming for that performance.
大约有 5,000、6,000 人来观看这场表演。
That is an amazing thing in comparison with the number of Christians in Japan.
与日本基督徒的数量相比，这是一件令人惊奇的事情。
Actually, I think that many people can appreciate that kind of message from the Bible as well — not only Bach’s music but from the Bible and so on.
事实上，我认为很多人也能欣赏圣经中的这种信息——不仅是巴赫的音乐，还有圣经等等。
That is my hope.
这就是我的希望。
Do you ever think back on what is called the Christian century in Japan, which ends, I think, in 1639, when a lot of Japanese convert to Christianity fairly rapidly, but then Christianity is suppressed?
你有没有回想一下日本所谓的基督教世纪，我认为它结束于 1639 年，当时许多日本人相当迅速地皈依基督教，但随后基督教受到压制？
Is there some alternate history where Japan becomes, more or less, a Christian country?
是否有一些替代历史使日本或多或少成为一个基督教国家？
Or could that never have happened?
或者这可能从未发生过？
No, that has never happened.
不，那从未发生过。
That was completely stopped, I think, religion-wise.
我认为，从宗教角度来看，这已经完全停止了。
But it’s very interesting that there’s evidence that before 1639, many churches were built by the missionaries from Europe.
但非常有趣的是，有证据表明，在1639年之前，许多教堂都是由来自欧洲的传教士建造的。
Also in Azuchi, for example, where the Oda Nobunaga was based very close to Kyoto, there were many churches and also quite some organs at the time.
例如，在离京都很近的织田信长所在地安土，当时有很多教堂，也有不少机关。
Also, boy missionaries were sent twice at least from Japan to the pope in Rome.
此外，日本至少两次派遣男传教士到罗马教皇那里。
At that time, it took a couple of years to reach Europe, and in between, some of them practiced the organ on the ship.
当时，他们花了几年时间才到达欧洲，期间，他们中的一些人在船上练习风琴。
Then, when they arrived at Évora in Portugal, one of them could play the organ immediately, and everyone was astonished.
然后，当他们到达葡萄牙的埃武拉时，其中一人立刻就能演奏风琴，所有人都惊呆了。
This connection was completely stopped afterwards.
此后该连接就完全停止了。
That was a pity, and Christianity was actually left over only as the hidden Christians.
可惜的是，基督教实际上只留下了隐藏的基督徒。
That is a very interesting history, but probably it is not possible to call it Christianity anymore, but it is a mix up with Buddhism.
那是一段非常有趣的历史，但可能已经不能再称其为基督教了，而是与佛教混淆了。
The musicologist Mr. Tatsuo Minagawa recently passed away, who has researched about that history, and found out a very interesting thing.
音乐学家皆川龙夫先生最近去世了，他研究了那段历史，发现了一件非常有趣的事情。
For example, there are still hidden Christians in Japan in Kishū area.
例如，日本的纪州地区仍然隐藏着基督徒。
I heard that they used to have, the funeral ceremony combining the Buddhism and Christianity.
听说他们以前有，佛教和基督教结合的葬礼。
The quite big houses or temple-like buildings, and in the front, they do the funeral ceremony according to the Buddhist way.
相当大的房屋或类似寺庙的建筑，在前面，按照佛教的方式进行葬礼。
Then in between, the priests are supposed to walk around to the back of the building, and while walking, they are always murmuring, “This is not true, this is not true, this is not true.” Then they come back to the Buddhism again — something like that.
然后，在这期间，牧师们应该绕到建筑物的后面，一边走一边低声说：“这不是真的，这不是真的，这不是真的。”然后他们又回到佛教——类似这样的事情。
This is a really interesting ceremony, a mixture with the Christianity.
这是一个非常有趣的仪式，与基督教的混合体。
This hidden Christianity of the Christian people has a very, very difficult and miserable history because they were completely repressed, and many people were tortured, but still they have survived in a way.
基督教人民的这种隐藏的基督教有一段非常非常困难和悲惨的历史，因为他们受到完全镇压，许多人受到酷刑，但他们仍然在某种程度上幸存下来。
Not really anymore the proper Christian.
不再是真正的基督徒了。
I don’t know exactly.
我不太清楚。
I can’t tell too much about that because I don’t know exactly, but anyway, there’s hidden Christianity still there.
我不能透露太多，因为我不太清楚，但无论如何，隐藏的基督教仍然存在。
That’s very interesting.
这很有趣。
You’re from Kobe, right?
你来自神户，对吗？
That was originally a Christian center along with Nagasaki.
那原本是与长崎一起的基督教中心。
Exactly.
确切地。
Because they were port cities.
因为它们是港口城市。
Is that why?
是因为这个吗？
Yes, Kobe is one of the most important after the reopening of Japan in 1868.
是的，神户是 1868 年日本重新开放后最重要的城市之一。
There are probably two, Kobe and Yokohama, and even Sendai — the port places.
大概有两个，神户和横滨，甚至仙台——港口城市。
This was very important to accept any kind of culture from the outside, but Christianity came in.
接受任何来自外部的文化都非常重要，但基督教进来了。
For example, the oldest Protestant church is in Yokohama.
例如，最古老的新教教堂位于横滨。
That is the end of 19th century.
那是19世纪末。
That’s a really interesting history.
这是一段非常有趣的历史。
How do Japanese audiences for classical music, say in Tokyo, differ from New York audiences?
日本古典音乐听众（例如东京听众）与纽约听众有何不同？
Hmmm, probably a little different.
嗯，可能有点不同。
American audience are more friendly, I think.
我认为美国观众更友好。
More friendly and more easily excited by the performance, and they look more inspired directly from the music, and also musicians.
他们更加友好，更容易因表演而兴奋，他们看起来更直接地从音乐和音乐家中获得灵感。
In Japan, Japanese audiences — sometimes they know very well about the repertoire and they are very cooperative, but at the same time, they are a little bit, well, not so excited immediately.
在日本，日本观众 ——有时他们对剧目非常了解，也非常配合，但同时，他们也有一点，嗯，不是立即那么兴奋。
Probably on the inside, very excited, but we Japanese people don’t express directly from inside to outside.
可能内心很激动，但是我们日本人不会直接从里到外表达。
We were all told in school, for example, that is a rule.
例如，我们在学校都被告知，这是一条规则。
That is not the intellectual demeanor — something like that.
这不是知识分子的风范——类似的东西。
What do you think of the hypothesis that Japanese audiences — they have a special interest in iconic works such as Beethoven’s Ninth, and there’s an insistence that they hear the best or experience the best, and single out very particular things.
您如何看待日本观众的假设——他们对贝多芬《第九交响曲》等标志性作品特别感兴趣，并且坚持认为他们听到最好的或体验最好的，并挑选出非常特别的东西。
Do you think that’s true?
你认为这是真的吗？
Yes, Beethoven’s Ninth is very special here, especially in December.
是的，贝多芬的第九交响曲在这里很特别，尤其是在十二月。
There are more than a hundred performances of Beethoven’s Ninth only in December.
仅12月份就有一百多场贝多芬第九交响曲的演出。
And the chorus at the end has special meaning for Japanese people, do you think?
最后的副歌对于日本人来说有特殊的意义，你觉得吗？
Chorus?
合唱？
The lyrics to the choral ending of the Ninth?
第九交响曲合唱结尾的歌词？
Of course, that has very special meaning, not only for Japan, but I think they’re, musically, very big events.
当然，这不仅对日本具有非常特殊的意义，而且我认为它们在音乐上也是非常大的事件。
In Japan, some of the projects gather more than 10,000 people to sing to the bit at the end of Ninth.
在日本，有些项目在《第九交响曲》结束时聚集了超过 10,000 人一起合唱。
That is quite a beloved event, but that is not one musical event, I don’t think.
这是一项非常受人喜爱的活动，但我认为这不是一场音乐活动。
Why do you think Bach’s larger vocal works were neglected for as long as they were until Mendelssohn, in what, the 1820s?
您认为为什么巴赫的大型声乐作品一直被忽视，直到门德尔松，即 1820 年代？
They’re a bit forgotten.
他们有点被遗忘了。
The keyboard music is not forgotten.
键盘音乐并没有被遗忘。
What happened there?
那里发生了什么？
Well, I don’t know.
好吧，我不知道。
There are couple of different aspects.
有几个不同的方面。
For example, the passion music of Bach — the St. Matthew or St. John — you need definitely the continuo playing, for example, but that idea was already completely extinct by the time of Mendelssohn.
例如，巴赫的激情音乐——《圣马太》或《圣约翰》——你肯定需要连续演奏，但这种想法在门德尔松时代已经完全消失了。
Mendelssohn reformed or — how do you call it — made a harmonization for the continuo part.
门德尔松改革了或者说“——你怎么称呼它”——对连续部分进行了和声。
He performed some cantatas as well, but he always provided the parts for the brass section or the wind section to fulfill the harmonization on the continuo.
他也演奏了一些康塔塔，但他总是为铜管乐部或管乐乐部提供声部，以实现连续奏上的和声。
The improvisative parts of the continuo could not be understood anymore by the time of Mendelssohn.
到了门德尔松的时代，连续奏曲的即兴部分已经无法被理解。
Also, it was much easier for them to understand the passion music just as storytelling, so Mendelsohn performed only mainly the older recitative in St. Matthew’s Passion.
而且，他们更容易理解受难音乐就像讲故事一样，所以门德尔松主要只演奏《马太受难曲》中较古老的宣叙调。
For his first performance, he avoided the nearly old arias.
在他的第一次表演中，他避免了近乎陈旧的咏叹调。
Even “Aus Liebe” he didn’t perform the first time.
就连《Aus Liebe》他也不是第一次表演。
His intention was to follow the story as directly as possible.
他的目的是尽可能直接地追踪故事。
In that way, probably, it was thought of just like the opera production.
从这个意义上说，它可能被认为就像歌剧制作一样。
Mendelssohn indeed revived the St. Matthew’s Passion, but actually, that performance is completely different from what we are now doing.
门德尔松确实复活了《马太受难曲》，但实际上，那次表演与我们现在所做的完全不同。
How many times do you think Bach heard his own larger-scale masterworks?
您认为巴赫听过多少次他自己的大型杰作？
St. Matthew’s Passion, B-Minor Mass.
圣马太受难曲，B 小调弥撒。
No, there is no evidence that he performed B-Minor Mass.
不，没有证据表明他进行了 B 小调弥撒。
That he never heard it played?
他从来没有听过这首歌？
He never heard it.
他从来没有听说过。
He never heard it.
他从来没有听说过。
Only in his mind.
只在他心里。
Yes.
是的。
St. Matthew’s Passion, he performed at least three times, I think.
我想，《马太受难曲》他至少表演了三遍。
St. John, four or five times, I’m not sure.
圣约翰，四五次，我不确定。
Anyway, that’s only a couple of times he really heard and performed his own masterworks.
不管怎样，他真正听过并演奏过自己的杰作的也只有几次。
Now, your music is largely online.
现在，你的音乐大部分都是在线的。
Not all of our listeners are experts in the music of Bach.
并非所有听众都是巴赫音乐专家。
If you had to recommend two or three cantatas that you’ve conducted — a place for them to start — where would you send them?
如果你必须推荐你指挥过的两到三首康塔塔 —— 让他们开始的地方 —— 你会把它们发送到哪里？
That is very difficult.
那是非常困难的。
One of the most difficult questions.
最困难的问题之一。
Well, that depends on the situation, what you have in the past in experience.
嗯，这取决于具体情况，取决于你过去的经验。
Sure.
当然。
Of course, from my side, one of my favorite cantatas is, for example, Bach — let me see —
当然，从我这边来说，我最喜欢的康塔塔之一是，比如巴赫 — 让我看看 —
“Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme”?
“Wachet auf，ruft uns die Stimme”？
Yes, 140.
是的，140。
That’s a good one for starting.
这是一个很好的开始。
Very good one, of course.
当然，非常好的一个。
“Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott”?
“Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott”？
80.
80.
Well, I don’t recommend that for the beginner because that is too complicated.
嗯，我不建议初学者这样做，因为这太复杂了。
Well, Cantata no. 8, “Liebster Gott.” That is really wonderful music.
好吧，康塔塔没有。 8、“利伯斯特·戈特”。那真是美妙的音乐。
You can really use it as BGM — background music — as well.
你真的可以把它用作BGM — 背景音乐 — 。
That is really comfortable to listen to.
听着真的很舒服。
Or Cantata no. 102, “Herr deine Augen sehen nach dem Glauben.” That’s a very interesting structure.
或者康塔塔没有。 102、“Herr deine Augen sehen nach dem Glauben”。这是一个非常有趣的结构。
The choir has a double fugue, and that is a really interesting structure.
合唱团有双重赋格，这是一个非常有趣的结构。
Also, the aria was very dramatic.
此外，咏叹调也非常富有戏剧性。
Otherwise, plenty of examples.
否则，有很多例子。
On organ playing
关于管风琴演奏
In the world today, how many top-tier organs are there for playing the music of Bach?
当今世界，演奏巴赫音乐的顶级管风琴有多少？
Where you can really do it justice.
在那里你可以真正做到公正。
You said there were no good organs in Japan, or you were told this.
你说日本没有好的器官，或者是有人告诉你的。
At that time, yes.
那时，是的。
How many organs of the highest quality are there in the whole world for you to play Bach?
全世界有多少个最高品质的管风琴可供您演奏巴赫？
In the whole world?
在全世界？
Yes.
是的。
How many?
多少？
That’s a really difficult question, but it totally depends on what you think is beautiful or what you feel is good.
这是一个非常困难的问题，但这完全取决于你认为什么是美的或你感觉什么是好的。
Because I prefer personally the historical organs, the original organs, like in northern Germany or France or wherever.
因为我个人更喜欢历史风琴，原始风琴，比如德国北部或法国或其他地方的风琴。
Well, my really favorite organ in the world is the Groningen, that is in Martinikerk, that was built by Johann Caspar Schnitger.
嗯，世界上我最喜欢的管风琴是位于马丁尼克的格罗宁根管风琴，由约翰·卡斯帕·施尼特格 (Johann Caspar Schnitger) 建造。
Where is that exactly?
那到底在哪里？
The Groningen is in the north part of —
格罗宁根位于 北部——
Oh, Groningen, yes.
哦，格罗宁根，是的。
That is really wonderfully restored.
这真的是还原得非常精彩了。
That quite depends on how it is restored as well, because the organ has a very long history.
这也很大程度上取决于它的修复方式，因为这个器官有着非常悠久的历史。
For example, in the 19th century, all over, the historic organs were renovated according to the musical taste of that time.
例如，在19世纪，各地历史悠久的管风琴都根据当时的音乐品味进行了翻新。
Nearly all the organs were Romanticized completely, the Romantic way they changed.
几乎所有的管风琴都被完全浪漫化了，它们改变了浪漫的方式。
In the 20th century, most of the organs were re-renovated to bring them back to the original situation of the 18th century or 17th century.
20世纪，大部分管风琴被重新整修，恢复到18世纪或17世纪的原貌。
How to restore is a really key point, actually.
其实如何恢复是一个非常关键的点。
For example, this Martinikerk Groningen organ that originated as a Schnitger organ, from the very original style is very good, but it was beautifully restored by Jürgen Ahrend, one of the most important organ builders in Germany.
比如这架马丁尼克·格罗宁根管风琴，起源于施尼特格管风琴，从非常原始的风格来看就非常好，但是它被德国最重要的管风琴制造商之一尤尔根·阿伦德（Jürgen Ahrend）精美地修复了。
How was it that organs improved in the time of Baroque music and Bach so that he could do what he did?
在巴洛克音乐和巴赫时代，管风琴是如何改进的，以便他能够做到他所做的事情？
Because it wouldn’t have been possible 100 years earlier, right?
因为这在 100 年前是不可能的，对吗？
Yes, organ building has been changing all the time, according to the time.
是的，管风琴的建造一直在随着时间的推移而变化。
Bach’s time, the second half of the 18th century — the organs around Bach’s area, Saxony and Thuringia, had quite a different character from northern Germany or Italy or France, and so on.
巴赫的时代，也就是18世纪下半叶——巴赫所在地区萨克森和图林根周围的风琴，与德国北部、意大利、法国等地的风琴特征截然不同。
They had many stringy stops, registers.
他们有许多弦乐音栓、音域。
Stringy sound contains a lot of high overtones.
拉弦的声音包含很多高泛音。
That is very close to the string instruments, and that is very interesting.
这与弦乐器非常接近，这非常有趣。
That character is very important for Bach’s organ music, I think, basically.
我认为基本上，这个角色对于巴赫的管风琴音乐非常重要。
As I said, there is no organ extant from that time to play all Bach’s organ music on one instrument.
正如我所说，从那时起，还没有现存的管风琴可以在一种乐器上演奏所有巴赫的管风琴音乐。
Actually, Bach’s idea of composition is always surpassing the organ situation.
事实上，巴赫的作曲理念总是超越管风琴的情况。
COWEN: Here’s a question from a reader: “How does he explain the, to me, surprisingly large number of Japanese organ students at top conservatories in Europe?”
考恩：这是一位读者提出的问题：“他如何向我解释欧洲顶级音乐学院中数量惊人的日本管风琴学生？”
Now, there’s not so many Japanese —
现在日本人已经不多了 ——
Not so many, you think?
你觉得没那么多吗？
Yes.
是的。
Now many more Korean organists.
现在有更多的韩国管风琴家。
Korean?
韩国人？
Yes.
是的。
Well, basically, I think, nowadays in Europe, much less numbers of Japanese students in general.
嗯，基本上，我认为，如今在欧洲，日本学生的数量总体上要少得多。
But for a famous conservatory, like Paris or Rome or Vienna and so on — there are still quite some, I think, but much less than before.
但对于巴黎、罗马、维也纳等著名的音乐学院来说，我认为还是有不少的，但比以前少了很多。
That is probably because all the Japanese musicians can get a job now in Japan, so they don’t have to really go to Europe anymore in terms of getting a job.
这可能是因为现在所有的日本音乐家都可以在日本找到工作，所以他们不必再真正去欧洲找工作了。
I think it’s still very important to live in Europe once if you would like to be a musician of European music.
我认为如果你想成为欧洲音乐的音乐家，在欧洲生活过一次仍然非常重要。
It is very important, I think.
我认为这非常重要。
Once you arrived in the Netherlands — of course, you’ve been to Germany many times earlier on — how did that change how you understood the music of Bach?
当你到达荷兰之后 ——当然，你之前已经去过德国很多次了—— 这对你对巴赫音乐的理解有何改变？
Well, before I came to the Netherlands, actually, I didn’t have any knowledge.
嗯，在我来荷兰之前，其实我什么知识都没有。
I didn’t have any understanding .
我没有任何理解。
Only the feeling.
只有感觉。
I loved organ.
我喜欢风琴。
I loved harp school.
我喜欢竖琴学校。
But the only thing is, when I started learning with Ton Koopman, what I had done in Japan was not wrong.
但唯一的是，当我开始跟随Ton Koopman学习时，我在日本所做的并没有错。
I thought that I was very lucky.
我以为我很幸运。
Actually, I was completely ignorant before I came to the Netherlands about Baroque music or about Bach.
事实上，在我来荷兰之前，我对巴洛克音乐或巴赫一无所知。
Everything was so new to me.
一切对我来说都是那么新鲜。
All the knowledge — Ton Koopman had so many books and so much knowledge.
所有的知识——托恩·库普曼拥有如此多的书籍和如此多的知识。
He really talked of many things like a machine gun.
他确实谈到了很多东西，比如机枪。
After that, I learned and I read some books and so on a little bit more objectively.
后来我学习了，也看了一些书等等，比较客观了一些。
Then I came to the conclusion that I’m good, I can stay.
然后我得出的结论是我很好，我可以留下来。
Something like that.
类似的事情。
If you go to the Bach church in Leipzig or go to Arnstadt, mentally, emotionally, does something fall into place?
如果你去莱比锡的巴赫教堂或者去阿恩施塔特，精神上、情感上，有什么事情会发生吗？
Or do you just look at it and say, “Oh, that’s nice”?
或者你只是看着它然后说：“哦，那很好”？
For example, in St. Thomas Church in Leipzig, I was very happy to be there for the first time ever.
例如，在莱比锡的圣托马斯教堂，我很高兴第一次去那里。
That was still in the DDR Zeit, GDR times.
那还是东德时代、东德时代。
In front of the church, there was a huge statue of Bach, and that was, “Oh, Bach was so big a person.” Actually, the St. Thomas Church itself — I heard that the inside is quite different from the time of Bach.
教堂前有一座巨大的巴赫雕像，那是“哦，巴赫好大一个人”。其实圣托马斯教堂本身 —— 听说里面和巴赫时代有很大不同。
I was very happy to be there, but I can’t make any connection to heaven through that church.
我很高兴能在那里，但我无法通过那个教堂与天堂建立任何联系。
Anyway, Bach can be anywhere.
不管怎样，巴赫可以在任何地方。
I thought that Bach can be anywhere in the world.
我认为巴赫可以出现在世界任何地方。
That is very important places, but now, it’s quite different in the building structure-wise, and everything is different, so you can never feel the original atmosphere there.
那是非常重要的地方，但是现在，建筑结构已经大不一样了，一切都不同了，所以你永远感受不到那里原来的气氛。
What do you think of Glenn Gould’s highly unusual interpretations of Bach?
您如何看待格伦·古尔德对巴赫的极不寻常的诠释？
I love the Glenn Gould performance very much.
我非常喜欢格伦·古尔德的表演。
It is not so unusual if you try to make articulations, and also to make some effects like the harpsichord and organ and so on.
如果您尝试制作发音，并制作一些效果，例如羽管键琴和管风琴等，这并不罕见。
I thought this is a quite natural conclusion that he did in that way.
我认为这是他这样做的一个很自然的结论。
There are one or two — the recording of organ playing, his organ playing.
有一两个——管风琴演奏的录音，他的管风琴演奏。
That was a little strange, I thought, but a piano — for example, Goldberg Variations — that’s a really fabulous recording, I think.
我觉得这有点奇怪，但是钢琴——比如《哥德堡变奏曲》——我认为那是一张非常棒的录音。
What do you think of the view that some of them are wonderful, like the partitas, the English Suite in A Minor, but say, the Well-Tempered Clavier — it just seems like swooning, and the tempos are too arbitrary.
你觉得有些作品很精彩，比如帕蒂塔、A小调英国组曲，但是平均律键盘 ——它看起来简直令人着迷，而且节奏太随意了。
It’s not charming to me.
这对我来说没有魅力。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Some of them seem to not work at all.
其中一些似乎根本不起作用。
Yes, could be.
是的，可能是。
I don’t know so many different recordings, but at least for the Goldberg Variations, that was very nice, the first one especially.
我不知道这么多不同的录音，但至少对于《哥德堡变奏曲》来说，那非常好，尤其是第一个。
Sometimes the tempo is very quick, and I can’t do that in that way, but that is a very fascinating performance, I think.
有时节奏很快，我做不到，但我认为这是一个非常迷人的表演。
The Brandenburg Concerti — what is it exactly that makes them such a major advance over the music that came before?
勃兰登堡协奏曲——到底是什么让它们比之前的音乐取得了如此重大的进步？
Because they seem to come out of nowhere, and they’re so fully blown.
因为它们似乎不知从何而来，而且已经完全成熟了。
The solos are incredible, right?
独奏令人难以置信，对吧？
The ensemble work.
乐团工作。
Yes.
是的。
I think that was Bach’s intention, to compile the six concertos as one collection, but probably by then, he had composed many concertos.
我认为这就是巴赫的意图，将六首协奏曲编成一部合集，但可能到那时，他已经创作了很多协奏曲。
I think that is very simple.
我认为这很简单。
The New Yorker Bach specialist, Michael Marissen, has written that Brandenburg Concerto was a symbol.
《纽约客》巴赫专家迈克尔·马里森（Michael Marissen）写道，勃兰登堡协奏曲是一种象征。
His intention was to represent the social hierarchy.
他的目的是代表社会等级制度。
Number one is with two horns.
第一个是有两个角。
That is the usual symbol for the court, the dignity of the court.
这是法庭的通常象征，法庭的尊严。
The second one is the trumpet solo, oboe, recorder, and violin.
第二首是小号独奏、双簧管、竖笛、小提琴。
Those four instruments are supposed to be performed by any stadtpfeifer.
这四种乐器应该由任何城市演奏者演奏。
They have to master all these instruments, and so on and so on.
他们必须掌握所有这些乐器，等等。
Number three is very interesting.
第三点非常有趣。
This number was made by Bach himself, and that is three violins, three violas, three vicelli.
这个数字是巴赫自己制作的，那就是三把小提琴，三把中提琴，三把维切利。
That’s everything dominated by three.
这一切都是由三人主导的。
But he didn’t compose a second movement.
但他没有创作第二乐章。
That is, the actual movements were supposed to also be three, but the second one is missing, and only one bar in the middle of the page.
也就是说，实际的动作应该也是三个，但是缺少第二个，并且页面中间只有一个栏。
He clearly intended to improvise that second movement himself.
他显然打算自己即兴创作第二乐章。
That was the intention for the Berlin — we wanted to dedicate it to the Berlin Graf.
这就是柏林的目的——我们想把它献给柏林伯爵。
Then if you hire me, I can improvise for this movement — something like that.
那么如果你雇用我，我就可以即兴创作这个动作 ——类似的东西。
On contemporary music
论当代音乐
What is it in contemporary classical music that you enjoy?
您喜欢当代古典音乐中的什么？
Contemporary music.
当代音乐。
Yes, I enjoy sometimes, but probably, there are plenty of other specialists for contemporary music, I think.
是的，我有时很喜欢，但我认为，可能还有很多其他当代音乐专家。
What do you listen to?
你听什么？
I don’t know what is contemporary, but I listen to Stravinsky, for example.
我不知道什么是当代，但我听斯特拉文斯基，例如。
That’s one of my favorite composers.
这是我最喜欢的作曲家之一。
I even made one CD of the Pulcinella, and so on.
我什至制作了一张 Pulcinella 的 CD，等等。
Even more recent ones, like Takemitsu, and that is very beautiful.
甚至最近的一些，比如武满，那也非常漂亮。
But sometimes I can’t understand their intention.
但有时我无法理解他们的意图。
Sometimes very difficult.
有时非常困难。
I used to be a student of composition.
我曾经是一名作文学生。
At that time, my teacher was Akio Yashiro, who had studied in Paris.
当时我的老师是在巴黎留学的八城昭夫。
He passed away when he was 46 years old while I was still a student.
他46岁那年去世了，当时我还是个学生。
He composed a wonderful symphony and piano concerti and so on.
他创作了精彩的交响乐和钢琴协奏曲等。
Very recently, I performed his symphony for the first time in my life with the Sapporo Symphony Orchestra.
最近，我人生中第一次与札幌交响乐团合作演奏了他的交响曲。
That was a great pleasure.
那真是太高兴了。
The rhythm is so interesting.
节奏太有趣了
The structure is quite classical.
结构相当古典。
His way of composing was, in a way, conservative according to the very classical structure, and also rhythm pattern and so on.
他的作曲方式在某种程度上是保守的，按照非常古典的结构、节奏模式等进行。
But the sound itself is completely new, atonal music.
但声音本身是全新的无调性音乐。
It was a little difficult for me to enjoy that kind of sound, but it was a wonderful experience.
享受那种声音对我来说有点困难，但这是一次美妙的经历。
What is it you like in popular music?
你喜欢流行音乐中的什么？
Popular music.
流行音乐。
I don’t know the definition of popular music, but I like some of the singers, like Mariah Carey, for example, and also Whitney Houston, and so on.
我不知道流行音乐的定义，但我喜欢一些歌手，比如玛丽亚·凯莉，还有惠特尼·休斯顿等等。
That’s really wonderful music.
这真是美妙的音乐。
They are really good singers.
他们真的是很好的歌手。
Also, the texts are to cheer up people, and that was a very positive aspect all the time.
此外，这些文字是为了让人们振作起来，这一直是一个非常积极的方面。
That was very, very nice.
那非常非常好。
One form of the traditional Japanese popular music is called enka.
日本传统流行音乐的一种形式称为演歌。
That is songs of remorse and also sometimes regrets and so on.
那是悔恨之歌，有时也有悔恨之类的歌曲。
Very often, Japanese popular songs have that kind of text, which describe the negative aspects of our experience.
很多时候，日本流行歌曲都有这样的文字，描述了我们经历的消极方面。
I find it’s a little difficult.
我觉得有点困难。
Not difficult, a little piteous.
不难，就是有点可怜。
What’s your favorite Beatles song?
你最喜欢披头士乐队的哪首歌？
Beatles?
甲壳虫乐队？
Yes, Beatles.
是的，披头士乐队。
Beatles, I don’t know much about that.
披头士乐队，我对此不太了解。
The Beatles — really, I don’t know.
披头士乐队——真的，我不知道。
When I was in a brass band, we played some Beatles arrangement for brass band.
当我在铜管乐队时，我们演奏了一些披头士乐队为铜管乐队改编的作品。
That was “Yellow Submarine.” One of the Beatles songs had the very top, the piccolo trumpet as a feature.
那就是“黄色潜水艇”。甲壳虫乐队的一首歌曲非常受欢迎，其中短笛小号是一个特色。
“Penny Lane,” right?
“佩妮巷”，对吧？
“Penny Lane,” yes, exactly.
“佩妮巷”，是的，没错。
Yes, that’s very good.
是的，那很好。
That is my favorite.
这是我最喜欢的。
When you’re conducting and recording, what is it you’re thinking about?
当你指挥和录音时，你在想什么？
Do you have to concentrate completely on the music?
您必须完全专注于音乐吗？
Or does your mind wander at all?
或者你的思绪根本就在走神吗？
How is that for you?
你觉得怎么样？
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
Basically, I can’t think of anything other than music.
基本上，除了音乐之外我想不到任何东西。
Than what has happened.
比所发生的事还要多。
Yes, that happens, or in that bar.
是的，这种事发生了，或者在那个酒吧里。
I can’t even think of the next bar.
我什至想不到下一个酒吧。
I always concentrate on what’s coming next, something like that.
我总是专注于接下来会发生什么，类似的事情。
Also, the purpose or aim of that part of the music, what kind of atmosphere must be realized, and so on.
另外，这部分音乐的目的或目标，必须实现什么样的氛围，等等。
That is the most important thing.
这是最重要的事情。
You’re never distracted by physical troubles like “I’m tired of standing” or anything?
您从来不会因为诸如“我厌倦了站立”之类的身体问题而分心吗？
No. Actually, no distraction, only for rehearsals.
没有，其实没有什么干扰，只是为了排练。
When I start rehearsal, sometimes I feel, “Aargh, today, I’m very tired.” But during the rehearsal, I always freshen up, so that’s no problem anymore because of the music.
当我开始排练的时候，有时我会觉得，“哎哟，今天好累啊。”但在排练期间，我总是精神焕发，所以这不再是问题了，因为音乐。
I can get energy from that.
我可以从中获得能量。
How much do you need a score to conduct?
指挥需要多少分数？
How much?
多少？
Some people conduct without a score.
有些人在没有分数的情况下进行表演。
It’s much harder.
这要困难得多。
Do you need a score, or you use a score, or you don’t use a score?
你需要分数，或者你使用分数，或者你不使用分数？
Oh, of course.
哦，当然。
Definitely, I always use the score.
当然，我总是使用分数。
I never, never do anything by heart because that is not necessary.
我从来、从来不用心做任何事，因为那是没有必要的。
It just takes up more brain power for no purpose or —
它只会无缘无故地占用更多的脑力，或者 ——
No. Actually, for pianist or violist or singers, for example, there’s a day maybe they must memorize all the text or whatever.
不。实际上，对于钢琴家、中提琴家或歌手来说，也许有一天他们必须记住所有的文本或其他什么。
Most of the pianists are too busy to see the score, so they, of course, must memorize everything.
大多数钢琴家都太忙而看不到乐谱，所以他们当然必须记住所有内容。
But for conductors, no reason to memorize, actually, just like Ansermet said.
但对于指挥家来说，其实没有理由去背诵，就像安塞美说的那样。
Also, choir people in sacred music — not in the opera scene or whatever — but they must keep the scores always in hand because by memorization, your memory, how do you call it?
另外，唱诗班的人在神圣音乐中 ——而不是在歌剧场景或其他什么地方—— 但他们必须始终将乐谱放在手上，因为通过记忆，你的记忆，你怎么称呼它？
Your understanding of the music is changing all the time because, in order to realize this and that notes and the text and so on without mistakes, then you must take different energy to keep up that.
你对音乐的理解一直在变化，因为为了没有错误地实现这个那个音符和文本等等，那么你必须采取不同的能量来跟上它。
But what we should do is only make music, to make a sound.
但我们应该做的只是创作音乐，发出声音。
I think other than the operas and generally performances, I think it is better to have scores all the time.
我认为除了歌剧和一般的表演之外，我认为最好一直有乐谱。
Do you just go back and listen to your old recordings for fun?
您是否只是为了好玩而回去听您的旧录音？
Or it’s finished, you’re done, and you move on to the next thing?
或者它已经完成了，你已经完成了，然后你可以继续下一件事？
Basically, I want always to move on to the next and never, never look back.
基本上，我希望永远继续前进，永远永远不要回头。
Sometimes I am told to do that because I have to choose a different thing, to make another program, or to make a recommendation of the cantatas and so on, but basically, I don’t look back at all.
有时我被告知这样做，因为我必须选择不同的事情，制作另一个节目，或者推荐康塔塔等等，但基本上，我根本不回头。
If you have, say, at least two recordings of the St. Matthew’s Passion — I think they’re about 10 years apart.
比如说，如果你有至少两张《马太受难曲》的录音 —— 我认为它们相隔大约 10 年。
When you did the second, was your feeling, “I just want to do something different,” or you had heard the first, and you thought, “No, that’s wrong.
当你做第二个时，你的感觉是，“我只是想做一些不同的事情”，或者你听到了第一个，你想，“不，那是错误的。
I need to correct it”?
我需要纠正它”？
No, no.
不，不。
They’re just different visions.
他们只是不同的愿景。
Each recording — none of them is really perfect.
每段录音 —— 没有一个是真正完美的。
I always want to do it once again, like the live performance.
我总是想再做一次，就像现场表演一样。
If I have time, I’d like to do all the cantatas once again.
如果有时间，我想把所有的康塔塔再演一遍。
After all, then I probably will want to do once again.
毕竟，那时我可能会想再做一次。
That’s a never-ending story.
这是一个永无止境的故事。
But for St. Matthew’s Passion, the first recording, I have nothing to regret.
但对于第一张录音《马太受难曲》，我没有什么可遗憾的。
In between, we have improved, not only technically, but also the understanding about Bach.
在此期间，我们不仅在技术上有所提高，而且对巴赫的理解也有所提高。
And all the members — choir members, orchestra members — have all developed much.
而且所有的成员——合唱团成员、乐团成员——都得到了很大的发展。
That’s why, as a milestone, I think it’s very good to do once again.
这就是为什么，作为一个里程碑，我认为再次这样做是非常好的。
If I could live another 30 years, then probably I will do, once again, the St. Matthew’s Passion.
如果我还能再活30年，那么我可能会再次表演《马太受难曲》。
You have one of the best-known recordings of Handel’s Messiah, but as you know, there’s literally hundreds of recordings of the Messiah.
你有亨德尔的《弥赛亚》最著名的录音之一，但如你所知，弥赛亚的录音实际上有数百张。
Do you go and listen to some of them before you record to make sure yours is different?
在录制之前你会去听其中的一些歌曲以确保你的不同吗？
Or you just figure it will come out different?
或者你只是认为结果会有所不同？
Do you listen to old ones, like Beecham, for inspiration?
你会听比彻姆这样的老前辈的意见来寻求灵感吗？
How do you approach the musical past?
你如何看待音乐的过去？
Sometimes I need to listen to the other recordings or the older ones or other kinds of reference.
有时我需要听其他录音或较旧的录音或其他类型的参考资料。
Basically, I’m trying not to listen too much to other recordings.
基本上，我尽量不听太多其他录音。
That was too much influence.
那影响太大了。
I think to make a recording is very interesting because that is quite an important experience for all of us, all of our colleagues.
我认为录音非常有趣，因为这对我们所有人、所有同事来说都是一次非常重要的经历。
During the recording session, many things happen, and they are not always very easy.
在录音过程中，会发生很多事情，而且并不总是那么容易。
During the recording sessions, we all take that music into any cells in our body.
在录音过程中，我们都将音乐带入身体的任何细胞中。
That is really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
For example, the Messiah recording is a long time ago, but during the recording session, a couple of our colleagues’ mother or father or spouse said they passed away or something.
比如《弥赛亚》的录音是很久以前的事了，但是在录音过程中，我们几个同事的父母或配偶说他们去世了之类的。
Also, my wife’s mother passed away just when we finished the recording.
另外，就在我们完成录音时，我妻子的母亲去世了。
As if she’d waited for that moment.
仿佛她一直在等待那一刻。
That kind of memory is always coming back.
那种记忆总是会回来。
It is really a wonderful experience to keep going with the session recording.
继续进行会话录制真是一次美妙的经历。
That is very nice.
这非常好。
As you must know, Apple has recently acquired BIS Records, and you’ve done so much of your work with them.
您必须知道，Apple 最近收购了 BIS Records，您与他们一起完成了很多工作。
Will that change how you approach recording projects?
这会改变你处理录音项目的方式吗？
Actually, we don’t know yet what’s happening now.
事实上，我们还不知道现在发生了什么。
I’m so happy to be working with BIS all the time, 30 years now.
我很高兴一直与 BIS 合作，至今已有 30 年了。
I really hope that we can go on in more or less a similar way.
我真的希望我们能以或多或少相似的方式继续下去。
We have a really wonderful connection — the relationship with this company.
我们与这家公司有着非常美妙的联系。
More people might hear your music because Apple will put it higher in the algorithm, right?
更多的人可能会听到你的音乐，因为苹果会在算法中把它放在更高的位置，对吗？
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Let’s say you’re listening to music through Apple services —
假设您正在通过 Apple 服务听音乐 —
Oh, I see.
哦，我明白了。
— and you just type in “Bach.” You don’t know what you want.
— 然后你只需输入“Bach”。你不知道自己想要什么。
I would think it’s more likely that Apple puts you at the front because they own the rights to that music, and more people will hear you.
我认为苹果更有可能把你放在前面，因为他们拥有这些音乐的版权，更多的人会听到你的声音。
I’m just guessing.
我只是猜测。
Yes, maybe.
是的，也许吧。
Probably, hopefully.
也许吧，希望如此。
COWEN: It could be good for you.
COWEN：这对你可能有好处。
Yes.
是的。
That is very nice.
这非常好。
You’re now at 67 years old, and you first heard Bach when you were 12 years old.
您现在 67 岁了，第一次听到巴赫是在 12 岁的时候。
That’s 55 years of listening to Bach, playing it, conducting it, recording it.
这就是 55 年聆听、演奏、指挥、录制巴赫作品的时间。
Over so many years, how do you think it’s affected you emotionally or spiritually or philosophically?
这么多年，你认为它对你的情感、精神或哲学产生了怎样的影响？
How are you different internally?
你们内部有何不同？
Wow, I’m getting older now.
哇，我现在长大了。
I know Bach is always there.
我知道巴赫一直都在那里。
I’ve never thought in that way.
我从来没有这样想过。
Bach is my life, actually, so familiar.
事实上，巴赫就是我的生活，如此熟悉。
I am living inside of Bach’s music, so I can never judge it from the outside.
我生活在巴赫的音乐之中，所以我永远无法从外部来判断它。
Actually, it is not thinkable to live without Bach’s music or without music.
事实上，没有巴赫的音乐或没有音乐的生活是不可想象的。
That is my life only.
那只是我的生活。
Last two questions.
最后两个问题。
First, what is your favorite pizza in New Haven?
首先，您最喜欢纽黑文的披萨是什么？
Pizza, well, to be honest, I didn’t get any pizza in New Haven.
披萨，好吧，说实话，我在纽黑文没有吃到任何披萨。
It tastes very good there.
那里的味道非常好。
Yes, I know, that’s very famous, but I don’t like pizza so much.
是的，我知道，那很出名，但我不太喜欢披萨。
Oh, okay.
哦好的。
Last question, what will you do next?
最后一个问题，接下来你会做什么？
Now?
现在？
Now.
现在。
After this project with Yale and Juilliard — now, we are having Handel’s oratorio called L’Allegro Penseroso ed il Moderato.
在与耶鲁大学和茱莉亚音乐学院合作完成这个项目之后——现在，我们正在制作亨德尔的清唱剧《L’Allegro Penseroso ed il Moderato》。
That’s very interesting music.
这是非常有趣的音乐。
After that, next project is a couple of organ concerts in Japan because in Kobe, in the Shoin chapel, where we have made all the CD recordings — and that organ that’s built by the French organ builder called Marc Garnier, that was exactly the 40-year Jubilee this year.
之后，下一个项目是在日本举办几场管风琴音乐会，因为在神户的松阴教堂，我们在那里录制了所有的 CD ——而那个管风琴是由法国管风琴制造商 Marc Garnier 制造的，今年正好是 40 周年纪念日。
That’s why I will give a couple of concerts there.
这就是为什么我会在那里举办几场音乐会。
That was actually the starting point of my whole career, so that is a really important event.
这实际上是我整个职业生涯的起点，所以这是一个非常重要的事件。
After that, I’m coming back to Europe to make another volume 6 or 7 of the organ series in Groningen.
之后，我将回到欧洲，在格罗宁根制作管风琴系列的第六卷或第七卷。
Then I will make a tour with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, with the Christmas Oratorio, all six parts.
然后我会和启蒙时代管弦乐团一起巡演，还有圣诞清唱剧，全部六个部分。
That’s really exciting.
这真的很令人兴奋。
Next year in January, we are going to perform Brahms’s Deutsches Requiem with period instruments in Japan and make a recording.
明年一月，我们将在日本用古乐器演奏勃拉姆斯的《德意志安魂曲》并录制唱片。
That is a real excitement.
那是一种真正的兴奋。
I look forward to that.
我对此很期待。
Masaaki Suzuki, thank you very much.
铃木正明，非常感谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。