Mary Roach on Disgust, Death, and Danger (Ep. 29 - Live at Mason)
There’s one of your talks where you describe a common theme of your books, that they’re all about something anatomical and vaguely gross.
在你的一次演讲中，你描述了你的书的一个共同主题，即它们都是关于解剖学的、隐约粗糙的东西。
When you write these books, how long does it take you to get used to the aspects of your topics that are gross?
当你写这些书时，你需要多长时间才能习惯你的主题中粗俗的方面？
I’m thinking it’s somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes.
我想大约需要 10 到 20 分钟。
I don’t want to adjust too quickly, actually, because something happens when you dive into a topic, and you start out with the sense of wonder and hesitation and curiosity, and it’s all very electric and fresh.
事实上，我不想调整得太快，因为当你深入研究一个话题时，就会发生一些事情，你一开始会感到惊奇、犹豫和好奇，这一切都非常令人兴奋和新鲜。
Then after a couple of years, “Yeah, gastrocolic reflex .
几年后，“是的，胃结肠反射……”
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boring.” You start to become like the researchers for whom it’s day to day, and I don’t want things to be day to day.
无聊。”你开始变得像那些日复一日的研究人员一样，而我不希望事情日复一日。
So I actually like to slow down that, or I’d like if I could to slow down that process of feeling comfortable.
所以我实际上想放慢速度，或者我想是否可以放慢感觉舒适的过程。
In your book Gulp, which is about the mechanics of eating, you draw a distinction between stimulated and unstimulated saliva.
在您关于饮食机制的书《Gulp》中，您区分了刺激唾液和非刺激唾液。
When you hear that, does it strike you at all as odd?
当你听到这句话时，你是否觉得很奇怪？
Or it’s like “Oh of course, here’s my unstimulated saliva coming up.”
或者就像“哦，当然，这是我未受刺激的唾液流出来了。”
Well right now, yes.
嗯，现在，是的。
I need more unstimulated saliva right now because otherwise you can get those horrible mouth sounds that radio people hate.
我现在需要更多未受刺激的唾液，否则你会听到广播人士讨厌的可怕的口音。
But that’s the kind of thing I get very excited about, the fact that there are two different kinds.
但这正是我感到非常兴奋的事情，事实上有两种不同的类型。
Not only are there two different kinds of saliva, but there’s two different ways of collecting it, so that’s kind of exciting for me — we don’t have to go into that.
不仅有两种不同类型的唾液，而且有两种不同的收集方式，所以这对我来说有点令人兴奋——我们不必深究这个问题。
The fact that there is stimulated saliva, just chewing — it doesn’t matter what you chew.
事实上，只要咀嚼就会刺激唾液分泌——咀嚼什么并不重要。
Your mouth is like, “Well whatever it is that you’ve got in there, I’m going to help you get it down.” So if you’re actually chewing on, essentially it’s like a tampon, and you chew on that, and your body, your mouth confusedly generates saliva to help you swallow that tampon — unused.
你的嘴就像是，“不管你里面装的是什么，我都会帮你把它拿下来。”所以，如果你真的在咀嚼，它本质上就像一个卫生棉条，你咀嚼它，你的身体、你的嘴会混乱地产生唾液来帮助你吞下那个未使用的卫生棉条。
Unused.
未使用。
Anyway, I’m not sure exactly what you wanted me to say about stimulated versus unstimulated saliva, but I’m off and running, obviously.
不管怎样，我不确定你到底想让我对刺激唾液和非刺激唾液说什么，但显然我已经开始跑步了。
On Freud and disgust
论弗洛伊德与厌恶
Arguably it was Freud’s view that disgust is there to act as a kind of barrier to satisfying unconscious desire.
可以说，弗洛伊德认为厌恶是满足无意识欲望的一种障碍。
Do you agree?
你同意？
Wow, I never really brought Freud into that chapter.
哇，我从来没有真正把弗洛伊德带入那一章。
That’s interesting.
那很有意思。
I always discussed the things that are disgusting or often stinky, smelly, dangerous, bacteria-laden things.
我总是讨论那些令人厌恶的东西，或者常常是臭的、臭的、危险的、充满细菌的东西。
So it makes evolutionary sense that we would want to push it away.
因此，从进化的角度来看，我们想要把它推开是有道理的。
Tell me again, what did Freud say?
再告诉我一次，弗洛伊德说了什么？
One way of reading Freud is that we have these unconscious desires to do things, and we want them very badly.
解读弗洛伊德的一种方式是，我们有这些无意识的做事欲望，而且我们非常想要它们。
But we’re not quite aware that we want them, and we repress ourselves by erecting obstacles to doing those things, and one of the ways we do that is by having evolved the sense of disgust.
但我们并不太清楚我们想要它们，我们通过为做这些事情设置障碍来压抑自己，而我们这样做的方式之一就是进化出厌恶感。
So what disgusts us is, in some way, connected to what we deeply desire, which we’re somewhat unaware of.
所以，在某种程度上，我们感到厌恶的东西与我们内心深处渴望的东西有关，而我们却没有意识到这一点。
Right, right.
对，对。
So you’re talking about taboos like incest and things like that, right?
所以你说的是乱伦之类的禁忌，对吗？
But also stimulated and unstimulated saliva and other, perhaps .
也许还有受刺激和未受刺激的唾液和其他。
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Uh-huh, yeah.
嗯嗯，是的。
Other.
其他。
Right.
正确的。
Gross, yeah.
恶心，是的。
Facts about dead bodies, facts about sex .
关于尸体的事实，关于性的事实。
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Right.
正确的。
Dead bodies.
尸体。
OK, yeah.
好的，是的。
Sure, that’s an interesting theory.
当然，这是一个有趣的理论。
What I found interesting about the things that disgust us, whether it’s saliva or urine or whatever, it is to me interesting that we draw this line: When it’s inside of us, we don’t have a problem with it, but as soon as it leaves the body, even if it’s our own saliva, it becomes disgusting.
我发现有趣的是那些让我们恶心的东西，无论是唾液、尿液还是其他什么，对我来说有趣的是我们划出这条线：当它在我们体内时，我们对它没有问题，但一旦它离开身体，即使它是我们自己的唾液，它也会变得恶心。
And you can map the boundaries of the self.
你可以绘制自我的界限。
If there’s saliva on your tongue and you stick your tongue outside the body, is it gross still?
如果你的舌头上有唾液，你把舌头伸出体外，那还恶心吗？
You can map the boundaries.
您可以绘制边界。
Paul Rozin writes a lot about disgust.
保罗·罗津写了很多关于厌恶的文章。
And I believe he talked about that, but you extend those boundaries to include your loved ones.
我相信他谈到了这一点，但你将这些界限扩大到包括你所爱的人。
You’re not disgusted by your child’s diapers, you’re not disgusted by your lover’s saliva, so you’ve extended the boundary of the self to include these people very close to you.
你不厌恶孩子的尿布，也不厌恶爱人的口水，所以你把自我的边界延伸到了这些离你很近的人身上。
So I found bodily fluids interesting in that way.
所以我发现体液在这方面很有趣。
It is striking that two of your main topics, food and sex, are areas that are some of our deepest, strongest desires and they’re areas where disgust is quite prevalent.
令人惊讶的是，你的两个主要话题，食物和性，是我们最深切、最强烈的欲望的领域，也是令人厌恶的领域相当普遍。
Yes.
是的。
That’s getting, I think, at Freud’s point.
我认为，这正是弗洛伊德的观点。
As a writer, how would you think about — writer and researcher, interviewer — how would you describe what is your special talent?
作为一名作家，您会如何看待 ——“作家和研究员、采访者”—— 您会如何描述您的特殊才能？
“My Special Talent” by Mary Roach.
玛丽·罗奇的《我的特殊才能》。
I think that I don’t have any — it isn’t a talent, it may be a character flaw — I don’t have a lot of hesitation or self-censoring when it comes to asking questions.
我觉得我没有什么 ——这不是天赋，可能是性格缺陷 —— 我在提问时没有太多的犹豫或自我审查。
I’m just balls out with my curiosity.
我只是好奇心太强了。
It is never uncomfortable.
它永远不会不舒服。
People sometimes say, “The questions that you ask people, is it an awkward interview?
人们有时会说，“你问别人的问题是一次尴尬的采访吗？
When you went to Avenal State Prison for the rectum chapter of Gulp, and you, talking to this convicted murderer about using his rectum to smuggle cellphones and other things, was that not a very awkward conversation to have?”
当你去阿维纳尔州立监狱拍摄《Gulp》的直肠章节时，你和这个被定罪的杀人犯谈论用他的直肠走私手机和其他东西，那不是一次非常尴尬的谈话吗？”
A little bit, but then you have to keep in mind, this is somebody for whom hooping, as it’s called, is .
有一点，但你必须记住，对于这个人来说，所谓的篮球就是……。
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everybody does it.
每个人都这样做。
It’s just something that you do; it’s everyday to him.
这只是你所做的事情；这对他来说就是日常。
Like for a sex researcher, talking about orgasm is like talking about tire rotation for a car mechanic.
就像对于性研究者来说，谈论性高潮就像谈论汽车修理工的轮胎换位一样。
It’s not like, “Ooh, you just made me uncomfortable, asking me about orgasm.”
这并不是说，“哦，你问我关于性高潮的事，让我感到不舒服。”
It isn’t really a talent.
这并不是真正的天赋。
Secretly, it’s nothing.
暗地里，这没什么。
I don’t know if that’s my special .
我不知道这是否是我的特色。
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Well, I don’t know.
好吧，我不知道。
I guess that’s what I’m going to go with.
我想这就是我要去的。
On chatting with the dead and freezing one’s head
与死者聊天并冻结头部
To do a whirlwind tour of some of your books, you have a book on corpses.
为了快速浏览你的一些书，你有一本关于尸体的书。
If you could chat with the dead, what would you ask them?
如果你可以和死者聊天，你会问他们什么？
Oh, if I could chat with the dead.
哦，如果我能和死人聊天就好了。
Are we assuming the personality or the body?
我们是在假设人格还是身体？
Well, both.
嗯，两者都有。
The corpse?
尸体？
The corpse.
尸体。
Oh, is this a research corpse or .
哦，这是研究尸体还是。
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It’s a research corpse.
这是一具研究尸体。
It’s a research corpse.
这是一具研究尸体。
Yeah.
是的。
OK.
好的。
I’m just defining our parameters here.
我只是在这里定义我们的参数。
If you could talk with a research corpse — OK, I know what I would ask it.
如果你能和研究尸体交谈 —— 好吧，我知道我会问它什么。
As somebody who wrote this book, Stiff, about medical cadaveric research, it kind of behooves me to donate myself, and yet, I still trip over that image.
作为写这本书的人，斯蒂夫，关于医学尸体研究，我有必要捐出自己，但我仍然被那个形象绊倒。
Instead of having the image of my husband, tears coming down, scattering ashes over the Pacific, which is quite lovely and romantic, I have first-year medical students eating a sandwich and looking at, “Girls, look at her skin here.
我没有看到我丈夫泪流满面、将骨灰撒在太平洋上的画面，这是相当可爱和浪漫的，我让一年级医学生吃着三明治，看着，“女孩们，看看她的皮肤。
It’s really .
真的是。
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。
.” You know that.
”。你知道的。
So what I’d say to the cadaver is, “Is this embarrassing for you?
所以我想对尸体说的是：“这对你来说很尴尬吗？
Are you OK with this?
你同意吗？
Are they treating you respectfully?
他们尊重你吗？
Do you wish you had some clothes on?” COWEN: One of my friends, Robin Hanson, is always trying to talk me into having my head frozen, either before I die —
你想穿点衣服吗？” COWEN：我的一个朋友 Robin Hanson 总是试图说服我冷冻我的头，要么在我死之前——
— when I’m dying, after I die —
— 当我快要死的时候，我死后—
— depends on your view of death.
— 取决于你对死亡的看法。
And he says the amount of money I would have to spend on this, it might be a small chance of being revived in the distant future, but I have no better way to spend the money.
他说我要为此花多少钱，也许在遥远的将来复活的机会很小，但我没有更好的办法来花这笔钱。
Does this argument convince you or does it disgust you?
这个论点让你信服还是让你厌恶？
To be just a head.
只是一个头。
Just a head.
只是一个头。
Yeah, just a head.
是的，只是一个头。
But with a chance of resurrection.
但有复活的机会。
Yeah, Jack, good luck with that.
是的，杰克，祝你好运。
No.
不。
No. Because first of all, they’ve got to solve the whole freezing-thawing and that’s going to destroy the cells.
不。因为首先，他们必须解决整个冻融问题，这会破坏细胞。
Right now, what can they do?
现在，他们能做什么？
One layer of cells, freeze and thaw, right?
一层细胞，冷冻和解冻，对吧？
Your basic sperm and egg .
你的基本精子和卵子。
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Right.
正确的。
You got that freeze-thaw, but a whole head, I just don’t see that coming anytime soon.
你会经历冻融，但整个头部，我只是不认为这种情况会很快发生。
And then to reattach, and then the spark, how are they going to .
然后重新结合，然后火花四射，他们会怎样……
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？
It’s not like you pull the cord on the lawnmower and rev the thing up again.
这并不像你拉动割草机上的绳子然后再次加速它。
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
You know what else?
你知道还有什么吗？
You know what’s interesting about cryogenics .
你知道低温学的有趣之处。
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cryonics .
人体冷冻学。
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Yes.
是的。
I never know if it’s cryogenics or cryonics.
我从来不知道这是低温学还是冷冻学。
A lot of interesting legal issues because those people who’ve done that believe they’re coming back.
有很多有趣的法律问题，因为那些这样做的人相信他们会回来。
They feel like they’re in suspension and they’re not dead, and that one day, they will be back, and they’re going to need their cash to live.
他们感觉自己被暂停了，但他们并没有死，有一天，他们会回来，他们需要现金来维持生计。
So their heirs, their estates, like, “This is my money,” but legally, they’re saying they’re not dead.
所以他们的继承人，他们的遗产，就像，“这是我的钱”，但从法律上讲，他们说他们没有死。
The power of compound interest, right?
复利的力量，对吗？
Yes, that’s right.
是的，没错。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
Who gets that money?
谁得到这笔钱？
On life after death experiences
关于死后的生命经历
Why do only 18 percent of people who are in the position to have a life-after-death experience actually have one?
为什么只有 18% 能够体验死后世界的人真正拥有了这种体验？
What’s your view on that?
您对此有何看法？
The trouble seems to be remembering the near-death experience.
问题似乎在于记住濒死体验。
You think most people or all people have it, but not all remember it?
你认为大多数人或所有人都拥有它，但并非所有人都记得它？
I don’t know whether most people do, but I know for sure that most people forget everything that happens in the OR now because of the .
我不知道大多数人是否这样做，但我确信大多数人忘记了 OR 中发生的一切，因为 .
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Versed is one of the drugs that’s used, and people are coming out of surgery — it’s very, very rare now that anybody said, “Darndest thing, I was floating up above and .
Versed 是所使用的药物之一，人们正在从手术中恢复过来 ——现在很少有人会说：“最糟糕的是，我漂浮在上面，然后……。”
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。
.” They just don’t remember anything.
”。他们只是什么都不记得了。
My favorite study from Spook, my second book, was a University of Virginia psychologist who studies near-death experience, had this idea, because near-death people who’ve had a near-death experience often report floating in the operating room, looking down onto their body on the operating table.
我最喜欢的第二本书《Spook》中的研究是弗吉尼亚大学一位研究濒死体验的心理学家提出的这个想法，因为有过濒死体验的濒死者经常报告说自己漂浮在手术室里，俯视着手术台上的自己的身体。
So in this, specifically, an operating room where they put in defibrillators, which they then test by flat-lining you, and then making sure the defibrillator will —
所以，具体来说，在这个手术室里，他们安装了除颤器，然后他们通过对你进行平铺测试，然后确保除颤器会——
Hope that works.
希望有效。
They put a laptop computer, open, up on top of one of the banks of lamps with a randomly generated simple image, so that if the person travelled up there, left the body, and looked down, not only would they see their body, but they would notice, “Huh, that’s peculiar.
他们把一台打开的笔记本电脑放在一排灯的顶部，上面有一个随机生成的简单图像，这样，如果这个人走到那里，离开身体，向下看，他们不仅会看到自己的身体，而且会注意到，“哈，这很奇怪。
There’s a laptop computer here with a flower,” or whatever it is.
这里有一台笔记本电脑，上面有一朵花，”或者其他什么东西。
Then, when they came out of surgery, they routinely interviewed people, “Did you remember anything about your experience?” And they gave up because nobody remembered anything.
然后，当他们从手术中出来时，他们会例行采访人们，“你还记得你的经历吗？”他们放弃了，因为没有人记得任何事情。
On bedpans
在便盆上
Why are bedpans dangerous?
为什么便盆很危险？
Well, funny you should ask.
好吧，有趣的是你应该问。
Bedpans are dangerous .
便盆很危险。
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OK, this is going to bring us to defecation, and it’s your fault.
好吧，这会让我们排便，这是你的错。
That’s OK.
没关系。
OK.
好的。
And Jonathan Swift.
还有乔纳森·斯威夫特。
All right, if you’re using a bedpan, you’re lying flat, and that’s not a natural and facilitative position for defecation.
好吧，如果您使用便盆，那么您就是平躺的，这不是一个自然且有利于排便的姿势。
Squatting would be great.
蹲着会很棒。
Toilet, pretty good.
厕所，还不错。
Lying down, not good.
躺着，不好。
You’re going to have to push harder, and if you are in the ICU, if you’re a heart patient, you are at risk of defecation-induced sudden death.
你必须更加努力，如果你在重症监护室，如果你是心脏病患者，你就有因排便引起的猝死的风险。
How did Elvis die?
埃尔维斯是怎么死的？
Defecation-induced sudden death.
排便引起的猝死。
That’s what I thought.
我就是这么想的。
Pushing too hard.
推得太用力了。
Don’t push too hard, people.
人们，不要逼得太紧。
No, you can induce an arrhythmia that can be fatal.
不，您可能会诱发致命的心律失常。
This is why they put heart patients in the ICU on stool softeners.
这就是为什么他们让重症监护室的心脏病患者使用大便软化剂。
This is why, so you don’t have to push so hard.
这就是原因，所以你不必那么努力。
This is a first for your show, isn’t it?
这是你的第一次演出，不是吗？
Defecation-induced sudden death.
排便引起的猝死。
That doesn’t come up with Atul Gawande.
Atul Gawande 没有想到这一点。
Well maybe Atul Gawande, possibly.
好吧，也许是阿图尔·加万德（Atul Gawande）。
Jeff Sachs mentioned it in his session.
杰夫·萨克斯在他的会议中提到了这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
On biases toward death and the dead
关于对死亡和死者的偏见
The economist Adam Smith in the 18th century, he actually had a view on some of these issues following Lucretius.
18世纪的经济学家亚当·斯密，他对其中一些问题的看法实际上是追随卢克莱修的。
He thought that we, sympathetically or mentally or emotionally, we associated ourselves too much with dead corpses.
他认为我们，无论是在同情心上、精神上还是情感上，我们都把自己与死尸联系在一起了。
And we felt sorry for them, and this was a kind of defect of the sympathetic or empathetic imagination, and that we would go through life feeling sorry for all kinds of situations that actually were fully neutral.
我们为他们感到难过，这是同情心或同理心想象的一种缺陷，我们一生都会为各种实际上完全中立的情况感到难过。
What do you see as some of the biases we have in terms of how we think about the dead and death?
您认为我们在看待死者和死亡方面存在哪些偏见？
Well, we have a tendency — because dead people look very much like live people — there’s a tendency to project the emotions that we had previously with somebody that you know who has died.
嗯，我们有一种倾向 ——因为死人看起来非常像活人 ——我们倾向于将我们之前对死去的人的情绪投射出来。
It’s a tendency to treat them as though they’re still people and to accord them the same sort of courtesies and respect.
人们倾向于把他们当作人来对待，并给予他们同样的礼貌和尊重。
This is problematic for people who do cadaver research because there’s a tendency to say that to cut this person open, and to take their pancreas and do one thing, and send their arm over to the automotive safety lab, and take their brain over here to put them in pieces like that, and to do these sort of seemingly brutal things is disrespectful.
这对于进行尸体研究的人来说是有问题的，因为人们倾向于说，把这个人切开，取出他们的胰腺，做一件事，然后把他们的手臂送到汽车安全实验室，把他们的大脑带到这里，把他们分成这样的碎片，做这些看似残酷的事情是不尊重的。
It would be disrespectful if the person were alive.
如果这个人还活着，那就太不尊重了。
Well, it would be criminal; it would be actionable.
好吧，这将是犯罪行为；这将是可行的。
But they’re dead; they aren’t the person anymore.
但他们已经死了；他们不再是那个人了。
And as a cadaver, they have this wonderful superpower, and that they don’t feel anything.
作为一具尸体，他们拥有这种奇妙的超能力，而且他们没有任何感觉。
And so, you can use them to get answers that you couldn’t in any other way because you don’t want to do that to a live person.
因此，您可以使用它们来获得以其他方式无法获得的答案，因为您不想对活人这样做。
So we trip over this fact that “they look like people,” which is why frequently the face is covered, the hands are covered.
因此，我们被“他们看起来像人”这一事实绊倒，这就是为什么经常遮住脸、遮住手的原因。
Even in surgical practice labs, there’s a lingering tendency to depersonalize and dehumanize the body.
即使在外科实践实验室中，也存在着一种挥之不去的将身体非人性化和非人性化的倾向。
I’m a fan of the Zoroastrian practice in Mumbai of having my dead corpse carried away by birds in pieces.
我很喜欢孟买琐罗亚斯德教的做法，即让鸟儿把我的尸体切成碎片带走。
If I could have my wish at zero cost, I think that’s what I would opt for.
如果我能以零成本实现我的愿望，我想这就是我的选择。
But let me give you a general sense I get when reading a lot of your work, and you tell me if there’s anything to it.
但让我给你一个我在阅读你的大量作品时得到的一般感觉，然后你告诉我是否有什么意义。
I think of a lot of the books, in a funny way, as a kind of response to actually Catholic philosophy, this notion of the incorruptibility of the body.
我以一种有趣的方式认为很多书都是对天主教哲学、身体不朽观念的一种回应。
It’s in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology.
它存在于天主教和东正教神学中。
There’s a notion that relics of saints, they don’t corrupt — or you can revisit and it will still be intact in some manner.
有一种观点认为，圣人的遗物不会腐烂，或者你可以重新访问，它在某种程度上仍然完好无损。
And that you’re writing a kind of scientific polemic against that, giving us some different conception of the body, coming out of a response to Catholicism.
你正在写一篇反对这一点的科学论战，给我们一些不同的身体概念，来自对天主教的回应。
Is that at all in what you’re doing?
你正在做的事情就是这样吗？
Not consciously, but my mother was a very .
不自觉地，但我的母亲是一个非常。
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not strict, but very Catholic.
不严格，但非常天主教。
My mother was very Catholic, and I went to mass.
我母亲是虔诚的天主教徒，我就去参加弥撒。
I had to go all the way through high school, so I was definitely steeped in that.
我必须一直读完高中，所以我绝对沉浸其中。
It wasn’t that I decided to take on the church in any way or incorruptibility.
并不是我决定以任何方式对抗教会或廉洁奉公。
I have a personal fascination for those relics though.
不过，我个人对这些文物很着迷。
My cousin, Dominic, who grew up in England, and he’s always telling stories.
我的表弟多米尼克在英国长大，他总是讲故事。
I never know if they’re true or not, and he did tell me that he’d met someone who is a forensic relicologist, whose job was to figure out, “OK, this saint — how many fingers and toes do we have?” Keeping track, trying to figure out which ones were fraudulent and which ones were .
我永远不知道它们是真是假，他确实告诉我，他遇到了一位法医文物学家，他的工作就是弄清楚，“好吧，这位圣人——我们有多少个手指和脚趾？”跟踪，试图找出哪些是欺诈的，哪些是。
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Where did they, when did they .
他们在哪里，什么时候到的。
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you know, carbon dating them or whatever and exposing the frauds.
你知道，对它们进行碳测年或其他什么并揭露欺诈行为。
And I thought, “That’s cool.
我想：“那太酷了。
I’ll build a book around that.” And, of course, there’s no such thing as a forensic relicologist.
我将围绕它写一本书。”当然，并不存在法医文物学家这样的东西。
Although, I did find that Oxford University does have someone there who does carbon dating, who has a specific interest in religious relics.
不过，我确实发现牛津大学确实有人做碳测年，他对宗教文物有特殊的兴趣。
Writing so much about bodies and corpses and death and the idea of disgust and also sex, do you feel it has helped you come to terms with your own death at all?
写了这么多关于身体、尸体、死亡、厌恶和性的想法，你觉得它有帮助你接受自己的死亡吗？
And if so, how does it help you or maybe hinder you from processing that fact?
如果是这样，它如何帮助或阻碍你处理这个事实？
I still really don’t want to die.
我还是真的不想死。
Not even a little?
一点也没有吗？
Not even, no. And I haven’t even .
甚至不，不。而我什至都没有。
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This is embarrassing to admit, but I haven’t even signed .
承认这一点很尴尬，但我什至还没有签名。
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I went so far as to get the forms for donating my body for research.
我什至拿到了捐献遗体用于研究的表格。
My two choices would be UCSF and Stanford, which are the two schools near where I live that take cadavers.
我的两个选择是加州大学旧金山分校和斯坦福大学，这是我住的地方附近的两所接收尸体的学校。
And I have the forms, and I never made the decision.
我有表格，但我从未做出决定。
I’m like a high school senior: “Who’s got the better view from the anatomy lab?” I didn’t pull the trigger.
我就像一名高中生：“谁从解剖实验室看得更清楚？”我没有扣动扳机。
So obviously, I talk, the talk.
很明显，我说话，说话。
I believe it’s really important.
我相信这非常重要。
I think and, practically speaking, I know that I’m dead.
我想，而且，实际上，我知道我已经死了。
I’m not going to feel any pain.
我不会感到任何痛苦。
I won’t feel any embarrassment.
我不会感到任何尴尬。
I’m gone!
我走了！
So why don’t I do it?
那么我为什么不这样做呢？
Obviously, I haven’t completely .
显然，我还没有完全。
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I didn’t glean anything at all from all of the work that I did.
我没有从我所做的所有工作中收集到任何东西。
But I sometimes get a nice note from a reader who’s lost someone recently, who found that book, Stiff, helpful in some way, I guess maybe demystifying things or making death, being dead, just the next phase of life.
但有时我会收到一位最近失去亲人的读者的善意留言，他发现《僵硬》这本书在某种程度上很有帮助，我想也许可以揭开事物的神秘面纱，或者让死亡、死亡成为生命的下一个阶段。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It didn’t help me in that way, but it seems to sometimes help other people.
它并没有以这种方式帮助我，但有时似乎对其他人有帮助。
Does that count?
这算吗？
On why zippers are (sometimes) a problem
为什么拉链（有时）是一个问题
Your book on soldiers, Grunt — also, I believe, your latest book — why are zippers a problem?
你关于士兵的书，Grunt ——我相信，你的最新书 —— 为什么拉链是一个问题？
Well, a zipper specifically would be a problem for a sniper who’s spending a lot of time lying down on his .
好吧，对于一个长时间躺在床上的狙击手来说，拉链尤其是一个问题。
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I’m going to say his, though there may be his or her.
我会说他的，尽管可能有他或她。
Let’s just say his or her belly.
我们只说他或她的肚子。
So buttons or a zipper would be uncomfortable.
所以纽扣或拉链会很不舒服。
This is the kind of thing that Natick Labs — where they design clothing and accessories for soldiers — the kind of thing they think about.
这就是 Natick Labs（他们为士兵设计服装和配饰）所考虑的事情。
While I was there, their fashion studio, which is staffed by fashion people with fashion degrees — they had designed a quite streamlined sniper top with a side closure for that reason.
当我在那里时，他们的时尚工作室由拥有时尚学位的时尚人士组成，因此他们设计了一款相当流线型的狙击上衣，并带有侧边闭合装置。
Also, if you have a zipper here and you’re lying in the dirt, the dirt gets into the teeth of the zipper, and then it doesn’t work very well.
另外，如果你这里有拉链，而你躺在泥土中，污垢就会进入拉链的齿中，然后拉链就不能很好地工作了。
You’re a sitting target for flies also, right?
你也是苍蝇的目标，对吧？
Is there anything you can do about that or do the flies just feast on .
有什么办法可以解决这个问题，或者让苍蝇尽情享用吗？
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You mean if you have a zipper?
你的意思是如果你有拉链？
Well, if you’re a sniper.
好吧，如果你是一名狙击手。
Oh, if you’re a sniper.
哦，如果你是狙击手。
Without a zipper, a zipperless sniper.
没有拉链，就是无拉链的狙击手。
OK.
好的。
Oh yeah, zipperless; a naked sniper even more so.
哦，是的，无拉链；裸体狙击手更是如此。
But flies, yes.
但是苍蝇，是的。
There’s a term that is used in agriculture called “fly worry” and that is when flies are particularly dense.
农业中有一个术语叫做“苍蝇担忧”，指的是苍蝇特别密集的时候。
In a desert climate or dry climate, where there’s not a lot of food and water, flies are very aggressive — any moisture at all, including the eyes.
在沙漠气候或干燥气候中，没有太多食物和水，苍蝇非常具有攻击性——任何水分，包括眼睛。
So they’re going for a cow around the eyes so much so that the cow is so obsessed with and focused on getting rid of flies that it doesn’t eat.
因此，他们对牛的眼睛周围进行了如此多的攻击，以至于牛如此痴迷并专注于消灭苍蝇，以至于它不吃东西。
And they can die that way.
他们可能会那样死。
Anyway, fly worry, it’s a concern.
不管怎样，放心吧，这是一个担忧。
It’s a thing.
这是一件事。
I have a lot to say about .
我有很多话要说。
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I don’t know how much you want to go into flies in the military.
我不知道你有多想进入军队。
I have more to say than the average person on flies.
我比苍蝇上的普通人有更多话要说。
Flies are both good and bad.
苍蝇有好有坏。
Young flies, maggots, can be helpful.
幼小的苍蝇、蛆虫可能会有帮助。
Helpful with wounds, right?
对伤口有帮助，对吗？
Helpful with wounds.
对伤口有帮助。
A maggot does a natural form of debridement.
蛆虫会进行自然的清创。
Maggots, as we know, they like dead bodies, they like dead tissue.
正如我们所知，蛆虫喜欢尸体，喜欢死亡组织。
Their menu preference is dead tissue, so a wound that is infected — This is something that was figured out in World War I.
他们的菜单偏好是死亡组织，因此伤口被感染了 —— 这是第一次世界大战中发现的。
These soldiers would come in with these horrific wounds.
这些士兵带着这些可怕的伤口进来。
They’d been lying in the field.
他们一直躺在田野里。
They’d come in, they’d have maggots in the wound.
他们进来后，伤口里就会长蛆。
This one surgeon, William Baer, noticed that, when you remove the maggots, there was this healthy, pink, new tissue growing in and there wasn’t infection.
外科医生威廉·贝尔（William Baer）注意到，当你去除蛆虫时，会生长出健康的粉红色新组织，并且没有感染。
And he saw it over and over and realized that maggots were therapeutic, and they are used to this day.
他看了一遍又一遍，意识到蛆虫是有治疗作用的，而且至今都已经习惯了。
There is a Medicare reimbursement code for maggots.
蛆虫有医疗保险报销代码。