Mary Gaitskill on Subjects That Are Vexing Everybody (Ep. 163)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m very pleased to be chatting with Mary Gaitskill, who is one of my very favorite contemporary writers.
今天我很高兴能与玛丽·盖茨基尔聊天，她是我最喜欢的当代作家之一。
I love her books — The Mare, Veronica, Lost Cat — her essays, her short stories.
我喜欢她的书——《母马、维罗妮卡、迷失的猫》——她的散文、短篇小说。
Mary, welcome to Conversations with Tyler.
玛丽，欢迎来到与泰勒对话。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
One thing I find so intriguing in your writing is your understanding of people who just seem to not want to be happy, flat out, such as Velvet’s mother in your novel The Mare.
我发现你的写作中最有趣的一件事是你对那些似乎不想快乐、一无所有的人的理解，比如你的小说《母马》中天鹅绒的母亲。
These people — what’s your understanding of why they aren’t happy or why can’t they be happy?
这些人 — 你对他们为什么不快乐或者为什么不能快乐有什么理解？
Why do they process everything so negatively?
为什么他们对待一切事情都如此消极？
Well, could we talk about one character?
好吧，我们可以谈谈一个角色吗？
Because I think they’re all different.
因为我认为他们都是不同的。
Sure.
当然。
What is that Tolstoy said?
托尔斯泰说了什么？
All happy families are the same; all unhappy families are different.
幸福的家庭都是一样的；所有不幸的家庭都是不同的。
I don’t think all happy people or families are the same, either, but I think the reasons that people are unhappy, or why they seem to just go to that place really easily, are quite varied.
我也不认为所有快乐的人或家庭都是一样的，但我认为人们不快乐的原因，或者为什么他们似乎很容易就去那个地方，是多种多样的。
I think, if I could come up with a general reason — not talking about my characters right now, but talking about people — I think people who seem like they just want to be unhappy or are incurably unhappy — it doesn’t have to do with what they want.
我想，如果我能想出一个一般性的理由 —— 现在不是谈论我的角色，而是谈论人 —— 我认为那些看起来只是想不快乐或极度不快乐的人 ——这与他们想要的东西无关。
It’s usually because they’ve been hurt very early on, and not just once or twice.
这通常是因为他们很早就受伤了，而且不止一次或两次。
There’s a persistent pattern of them encountering enormous adversity.
他们遇到巨大逆境的情况一直存在。
It doesn’t have to be social.
它不一定是社交的。
It can be in their family.
这可能是在他们的家庭中。
I guess that is social, but basically, they’re very injured, and so their strategy for life becomes how to protect themselves or how to cope with what they see as just a nonstop barrage of shitty experiences.
我想这是社会性的，但基本上，他们受到了很大的伤害，所以他们的生活策略变成了如何保护自己，或者如何应对他们认为是不间断的糟糕经历。
And so that puts them in a posture that they — certainly without intending to — invite that.
因此，这让他们处于一种“——”当然无意“邀请”的姿态。
In terms of Velvet’s mother, that’s not what’s happening.
就天鹅绒的母亲而言，事实并非如此。
She really, truly has had a rough life.
她的一生确实非常坎坷。
If you’re in a foreign country, and you cannot speak the language, and you’re in a dangerous neighborhood, and you don’t even understand the social signals that are being sent by the people around you, and you’re in a social group that’s really looked down on, and you don’t even know how to respond to that or you have no means to respond to that — that’s hard.
如果你在国外，你不会说当地语言，你身处一个危险的社区，你甚至不理解周围人发出的社交信号，你身处一个真正被轻视的社会群体，你甚至不知道如何回应，或者你没有办法回应，那就很难了。
If you put on top of that, that she’s come from a very rough circumstance — there’s a little about her backstory there — you’re going to be in a posture of real defensiveness and just locked in.
除此之外，如果你知道她来自一个非常艰难的环境 —— 那里有一些关于她的背景故事 —— 你就会处于一种真正的防御姿态，并且被锁定。
And that makes it very hard to move with any joyous energy, which is what her daughter learns in the book in riding horses.
这使得她很难带着任何快乐的能量移动，而这正是她女儿在书中学到的骑马技巧。
That’s her exposure to a free and joyous energy which she doesn’t get anywhere else.
这是她接触到的自由和快乐的能量，这是她在其他地方无法得到的。
In the general case, is it a desire to be preemptive so you feel in control of the pain?
在一般情况下，您是否希望先发制人，以便感觉可以控制疼痛？
Partly, yes, but it’s not even that thought out.
部分是的，但还没有经过深思熟虑。
Have you ever seen cats?
你见过猫吗？
Sometimes I’ve had situations where I’m introducing a new cat to a household where there are going to be three other cats.
有时我会遇到这样的情况：我要把一只新猫介绍给一个还有另外三只猫的家庭。
I’ve had the situation where two of the host cats are aggressive and they “grrrrr.” They’re ready to fight with the new one.
我遇到过这样的情况，其中两只寄主猫具有攻击性，并且“grrrrr”。他们已经准备好与新的战斗。
I’ve seen two different responses.
我看到了两种不同的反应。
One, I had a fairly confident, dominant cat.
第一，我有一只相当自信、占主导地位的猫。
She knew she couldn’t fight two cats, so her strategy was just to sit down, stretch out her paws, and look the other way and yawn.
她知道自己无法对抗两只猫，所以她的策略就是坐下来，伸出爪子，看向别处，打哈欠。
That defused the aggression.
这平息了侵略。
Another cat was just super reactive, just howling and fear.
另一只猫反应超级强烈，只是嚎叫和恐惧。
“Don’t come near me.
“别靠近我。
Don’t come near me.
别靠近我。
I’ll scratch your eyes up.” They always went for that cat.
我会擦亮你的眼睛。”他们总是去找那只猫。
Because of her response, it magnified the aggression.
因为她的反应，放大了攻击性。
It’s something like that.
是这样的。
It’s like getting yourself into a position of being prepared to be attacked that can draw not only from people, but it almost supercharges any negative situation.
这就像让自己处于一种准备受到攻击的境地，这不仅会吸引人们的注意力，而且几乎会加剧任何负面情况。
Not that I’m blaming the people.
我并不是在责怪人民。
Velvet’s’ mother, like I said, is in a bad situation objectively.
正如我所说，Velvet的母亲客观上处境很糟糕。
If we’re trying to understand such people, there are literal answers to the question of why they’re unhappy, and then there are what you might call fictional portrayals of why they’re unhappy.
如果我们试图理解这些人，那么他们为什么不快乐这个问题就会有字面上的答案，然后还有一些你可能称之为虚构的关于他们为什么不快乐的描述。
Do you think we need both to understand those people?
你认为我们需要两者来理解这些人吗？
And do the fictional portrayals add to the literal answers?
虚构的描述是否会增加字面答案？
When you say the fictional portrayals, you mean in the heads of the unhappy people, or literally fiction somebody like me would write?
当你说虚构的描绘时，你是指那些不快乐的人的脑海中，还是像我这样的人会写的真正的小说？
Someone like you would write a character out.
像你这样的人会写出一个字符。
Does that add to our literal explanation of why these people are unhappy?
这是否增加了我们对为什么这些人不快乐的字面解释？
Or is it just mirroring what you might say?
或者它只是反映了你可能会说的话？
Part of what I want to do in writing about some characters — not so much Velvet’s mother, but also people like Ginger, the other woman in this story, who seems to have a much better life, who actually does have a much better life.
我在写一些人物时想要做的一部分是——不仅是天鹅绒的母亲，还有像金杰这样的人，这个故事中的另一个女人，她似乎过着更好的生活，实际上也确实过着更好的生活。
Her suffering is more she’s a lost soul, in a way.
在某种程度上，她的痛苦更多的是她失去了灵魂。
With somebody like that, I’m not trying to literally tell people how they should understand them, but what I want is to acknowledge that many people like that exist.
对于这样的人，我并不是试图从字面上告诉人们他们应该如何理解他们，但我想要的是承认有很多这样的人存在。
Also, I think part of Velvet’s mother’s problem is that, not only she doesn’t fit in with her own community — she, in a way, is like Ginger.
另外，我认为 Velvet 母亲的部分问题在于，她不仅不融入自己的社区，而且在某种程度上，她就像 Ginger。
They’re both oddballs.
他们都是怪人。
They’re both very sensitive people in their own ways, and there are many, many people like that on Earth that, for whatever reason, have a great deal of trouble fitting into the world around them, even if it’s not a bad world, and that’s really hard.
他们都是以自己的方式非常敏感的人，地球上有很多很多这样的人，无论出于何种原因，都很难融入周围的世界，即使这不是一个糟糕的世界，这真的很难。
It’s not that I’m trying to say, “Here are the reasons why, and you should understand.” It’s more like I want you to feel those people.
我并不是想说“原因如下，你应该明白。”更像是我想让你感受到那些人。
I want the reader to feel them, and that’s something that’s more unconscious almost.
我希望读者能够感受到它们，而这几乎是无意识的。
But I think that I want to create almost a feeling that you’re in the room with that person, and instead of dismissing them quickly, you open your psyche and just feel them.
但我想我想创造一种感觉，让你感觉你和那个人在一个房间里，而不是很快地忽略他们，而是打开你的心灵并感受他们。
That’s ideally what I’m wanting to achieve.
这就是我想要实现的理想目标。
Why are we all to be pitied?
为什么我们都值得怜悯？
You said that in The New Yorker once, I believe.
我相信你曾经在《纽约客》上说过这样的话。
It’s hard to remember the context.
很难记住上下文。
Perhaps I meant because we’re all weak little creatures, finally.
也许我的意思是因为我们最终都是弱小的生物。
Even the strongest of us is going to either die violently or age and get sick and come face to face with our weakness and the fact that we have no idea who we are or what we’re doing here.
即使我们中最坚强的人也会死于暴力，或者衰老并生病，并面对我们的弱点以及我们不知道自己是谁或我们在这里做什么的事实。
And we’re not aware of that most of the time because we’re just moving around in the world, but on the deathbed, the things we think were really important may not matter very much.
大多数时候我们都没有意识到这一点，因为我们只是在世界上四处走动，但在临终时，我们认为真正重要的事情可能并不那么重要。
Our personality may not matter very much.
我们的个性可能并不重要。
Everybody is very connected to their personality.
每个人都与自己的个性密切相关。
Well, I guess maybe a few people are not, either by design, either because they want to look past their personality, or they’re crazy and their personality is disintegrative.
好吧，我想也许有一些人不是故意的，要么是因为他们想超越自己的个性，要么是他们疯了，他们的个性是瓦解的。
But most of us are really into our personalities.
但我们大多数人都非常关注自己的个性。
I think, at certain points in life — say you were really sick or were really disadvantaged, or you’ve been beaten up badly by somebody, or something — we realize our personality is actually quite fragile, and it’s just a construct really.
我认为，在生活中的某些时刻——比如你真的病了或者处于非常不利的境地，或者你被某人或某事狠狠地殴打了——我们意识到我们的个性实际上非常脆弱，而且它实际上只是一种构建。
I think that’s scary for people.
我认为这对人们来说很可怕。
I hope I’m not answering at too great length.
我希望我的回答不会太长。
It’s just a big question.
这只是一个大问题。
Yeah, great.
是的，太棒了。
I’m doing the best I can.
我正在尽力而为。
I was once with a woman in her house, and her son was there, and he was a big strong kid, like 21 or something, and he really worked out and was a strong guy.
有一次我和一个女人在她家里，她的儿子也在那里，他是一个强壮的大孩子，大概 21 岁左右，他真的很努力，是一个坚强的人。
And she was trying to tell him to be careful about something and bad people in the world.
她试图告诉他要小心世界上的一些事情和坏人。
He’s, “I’d like to see somebody who could” — he used the f-word — “fuck me up.”
他是，“我想见一个可以” —— 他用了脏话 —— “操我。”
I didn’t say anything, but I’m like, “All it’ll take is somebody with a gun, and you’re dead.” He doesn’t know that, and he doesn’t feel that.
我什么也没说，但我想，“只要有人拿着枪，你就死定了。”他不知道这一点，也感觉不到这一点。
He probably knows it in his head, but he doesn’t because he’s so strong in the moment.
他心里可能知道这一点，但他不知道，因为他此刻太坚强了。
He’s not always going to be like that.
他并不总是这样。
Sometimes in your self-accounts, you claim to be confused by social situations, yet in your novels, I would say your remarks are extremely insightful into character and into the human condition.
有时在你的自述中，你声称自己对社会情境感到困惑，但在你的小说中，我想说你的言论对人物和人类状况非常有洞察力。
How do you put all that together into one unified theory of Mary Gaitskill?
你如何将所有这些整合到玛丽·盖茨基尔的一个统一理论中？
I don’t have one unified theory of Mary Gaitskill.
我对玛丽·盖茨基尔没有一个统一的理论。
Do you have a disunified theory?
你有不统一的理论吗？
No, I’m not into .
不，我不喜欢。
.
。
.
。
This is too complicated.
这太复杂了。
That’s too big a question, but it’s certainly true that I’m often confused in social situations.
这是一个太大的问题，但我确实经常在社交场合感到困惑。
Those are very different from sitting by yourself and writing.
这与独自坐着写作有很大不同。
I can have a great deal of clarity if it’s either a character I’ve completely invented, or I’m writing partly from life, partly from fiction, or it’s an essay about something that really happened.
如果它是我完全虚构的一个角色，或者我部分来自生活，部分来自小说，或者这是一篇关于真实发生过的事情的文章，我可以有很大的清晰度。
I’m just completely in my own point of view.
我只是完全站在我自己的角度。
I understand my own point of view, usually pretty well, and that’s very different.
我通常很清楚自己的观点，但这是非常不同的。
If you’re in a room, even with two other people, and you’re dealing with other people — not just their point of view, but their whole psyche and presence and tone of voice.
如果你在一个房间里，即使是另外两个人，并且你正在与其他人打交道——不仅仅是他们的观点，还有他们的整个心理、存在和语气。
Plus, on top of that, if you don’t know them, there are social rules and conventions.
另外，最重要的是，如果你不了解它们，还有社会规则和惯例。
Those are what I have trouble with.
这些都是我遇到的麻烦。
I often don’t read those correctly, though I’m much better at it than I used to be.
我经常不能正确地阅读这些内容，尽管我比以前更好了。
Anyway, they’re two different things, so that’s how I may come off as — in fact, may be — very knowing in my own writing, but it takes me a while to understand what’s going on socially, sometimes.
无论如何，它们是两个不同的东西，所以这就是我在自己的写作中可能表现得“非常了解”，但有时我需要一段时间才能理解社会上正在发生的事情。
As you know, many 19th-century novels — they focus on social structures rather than individuals.
如您所知，许多 19 世纪的小说 ——它们关注的是社会结构而不是个人。
Could you ever imagine writing such a novel?
你能想象写这样一部小说吗？
I’m not sure, because of that very reason, that I don’t think I understand, say, the education system.
正因为如此，我不确定我认为我不理解教育体系。
That’s the one I understand the best because I’ve taught in universities, but even that, I don’t pay much attention to the bureaucracies of those things.
这是我最了解的，因为我在大学教过书，但即便如此，我也不太关注那些事情的官僚主义。
I could learn about them, but on a profound level, they don’t interest me, and I wouldn’t want to write a story about that world, probably, anyway, or a whole novel — a story, maybe.
我可以了解它们，但在深刻的层面上，它们对我不感兴趣，而且我也不想写一个关于那个世界的故事，可能，无论如何，或者整部小说——也许是一个故事。
Other settings, I simply don’t know enough about them, and it would take a very long time to research them adequately.
其他的设置，我根本就不太了解，需要很长时间才能充分研究。
I have seen people write about things like that that I don’t think they know about them either, and it doesn’t stop them.
我见过有人写过类似的事情，我认为他们也不知道这些事情，但这并不能阻止他们。
But I think that would be the main difficulty I have with that.
但我认为这将是我遇到的主要困难。
To me, it’s not the highest possible goal.
对我来说，这不是最高的目标。
It’s a high goal, and there are people who do it brilliantly, and I admire those people, but I don’t feel like you must do it if you want to be a valid writer.
这是一个很高的目标，有人做得很出色，我很钦佩这些人，但我不认为如果你想成为一名有效的作家就必须这样做。
Here’s a question from a reader, and I quote.
这是一位读者提出的问题，我引用一下。
“She has an amazing attention to the physical, you might say to sensual detail.
“她对身体，你可能会说是感性的细节有着惊人的关注。
The smoothness of a seashell, the hairiness of a horse’s leg, the inherent virtue of a beautiful pair of flip-flops.
贝壳的光滑，马腿的毛茸茸，一双漂亮人字拖的内在美德。
How did she develop this quality?”
她是如何培养这种品质的？
Thank you for the observation.
感谢您的观察。
It comes naturally to me.
这对我来说很自然。
It’s the way I do understand the world.
这就是我理解世界的方式。
I understand people that way too, by looking at them that way.
我也以这种方式理解人们，以这种方式看待他们。
Not entirely — I understand them by their words and actions as well, but I think people tell the truth with their face much more than they do with their words — and their tone of voice, and the way they move their body.
不完全是——我也通过他们的言语和行动来理解他们，但我认为人们通过他们的面部表情比他们的言语、他们的语气以及他们移动身体的方式更能说出真相。
Also, to me, that’s a bigger world than the social world, in a sense.
而且，对我来说，从某种意义上来说，这是一个比社交世界更大的世界。
It’s a very mysterious world that we come from, this raw matter.
我们来自一个非常神秘的世界，这个原始物质。
The social world’s certainly important, but it exists in that bigger world.
社交世界固然重要，但它存在于更大的世界中。
To me, that’s where I’m more naturally attuned.
对我来说，这就是我更自然的地方。
The social world comes out of that, in my opinion.
在我看来，社交世界就是由此产生的。
I feel like I can’t claim to understand that natural world.
我觉得我不能声称了解那个自然世界。
I don’t understand it like a biologist would, certainly, but it’s very natural for me to go there, though I have developed it as well.
当然，我不像生物学家那样理解它，但对我来说去那里是很自然的，尽管我也开发了它。
I have consciously developed it as well.
我也有意识地发展了它。
How do you practice that?
你如何练习呢？
Just by looking at things and asking myself, “How does that look?”
只需观察事物并问自己：“那看起来怎么样？”
Then do you draft and redraft, or it just flows out, and then it’s there on the page, and you’ve got it?
然后你起草和重新起草，或者它只是流出，然后它就在页面上，你就得到了它？
I usually have to draft and redraft.
我通常必须起草和重新起草。
It’s very rare that I don’t.
我很少不这样做。
You once quoted your therapist as saying, and I’m quoting him here, “People are just horrible, and the sooner you realize that, the happier you’re going to be.” What’s your view?
你曾经引用过你的治疗师的话，我在这里引用他的话，“人们太可怕了，你越早意识到这一点，你就会越快乐。”你的看法是什么？
I thought that was a wonderful remark.
我认为这是一个很棒的评论。
It’s important to note the tone of voice that he used.
重要的是要注意他使用的语气。
He was a Southern queer gentleman with a very lilting, soft voice.
他是一位南方酷儿绅士，声音轻快、柔和。
I was complaining about something or other, and he goes, “People are horrible.
我在抱怨某事或其他事，他说：“人们太可怕了。
They’re stupid, and they’re crazy, and they’re mean, and the sooner you realize that, the better off you’ll be, the more you’re going to start enjoying life.”
他们很愚蠢，他们很疯狂，他们很卑鄙，你越早意识到这一点，你就会过得越好，你就越会开始享受生活。”
I just laughed, because partly it was obvious he was being funny, and it was a very gentle way of allowing my ranting and raving and acknowledging the truth of it.
我只是笑了，因为部分原因很明显他很有趣，这是一种非常温和的方式，允许我咆哮和胡言乱语，并承认它的真相。
Gee, I don’t know how anybody could deny that.
哎呀，我不知道怎么会有人否认这一点。
Look at human history and some of the things that people do.
看看人类历史和人们所做的一些事情。
It was being very spacious about it and just saying, “Look, you have to accept reality.
它对此非常宽泛，只是说：“看，你必须接受现实。
You can’t expect people to be perfect or to be your idea of good or moral all the time.
你不能指望人们是完美的，或者总是成为你心目中的善或道德。
You’re probably not either.
你可能也不是。
This is what it is.”
就是这样。”
I thought that was really wisdom, actually.
事实上，我认为这真的是智慧。
At the margin, what should be we doing more of to help troubled teenagers?
那么，我们应该做些什么来帮助陷入困境的青少年呢？
More therapy, more medications, something else?
更多的治疗，更多的药物，还是其他什么？
Wow, you like to ask big questions.
哇，你喜欢问大问题。
I could answer that if you presented me with an individual.
如果你向我介绍一个人，我可以回答这个问题。
I can’t answer that.
我无法回答这个问题。
That’s not my field, for one thing, but also, even if it was, I don’t know if I could .
一方面，这不是我的领域，但即使是，我也不知道我是否可以。
.
。
.
。
I think the broadest answer that a lot of people, including professionals, would agree with is, the problem is this can’t be implemented.
我认为包括专业人士在内的很多人都会同意的最广泛的答案是，问题是这无法实施。
If there was a way to limit social media, I think that would help.
如果有一种方法可以限制社交媒体，我认为这会有所帮助。
If there was a way to get people more physically active and more grounded in their body, but you can’t have mass meditation classes for teenagers.
如果有一种方法可以让人们更加积极地锻炼身体，更加脚踏实地，但你不能为青少年开设大规模冥想课程。
I can’t picture that at all.
我根本无法想象。
People are so different.
人们是如此不同。
Some kid might be very amenable to the idea of learning some kind of meditation technique or breathing technique or get interested in martial arts or something like that, but you can’t say, “This is what everybody needs to do.” I think if there was a way to get people more grounded in their bodies, that would help, and not so fixated on social media.
有些孩子可能非常愿意学习某种冥想技巧或呼吸技巧，或者对武术或类似的东西感兴趣，但你不能说，“这是每个人都需要做的。”我认为，如果有一种方法可以让人们更加扎根于自己的身体，那将会有所帮助，而不是那么沉迷于社交媒体。
The problem is that no one can figure out how to implement something like that on a mass basis.
问题是没有人能弄清楚如何大规模实施类似的事情。
A very specific question.
一个非常具体的问题。
For how long will you look for a lost cat?
您会花多长时间寻找丢失的猫？
It depends, again, on the situation.
这又取决于具体情况。
I looked for the one cat that I lost for months, probably about a year.
我寻找我失去的一只猫几个月了，可能大约一年了。
Possibly even more than that.
可能还不止于此。
No, I think I actively looked for maybe nine months, but I was still keeping my eye out for months after that.
不，我想我积极地寻找了大约九个月，但在那之后的几个月里我仍在密切关注。
There’s another cat I lost.
我又丢了一只猫。
Most of my cats, when I lose them, I find that they come back.
我的大多数猫，当我失去它们时，我发现它们又回来了。
But there was one I didn’t, and that was really terrible, and I looked for a long time.
但有一个我没有，那真是太糟糕了，我找了很长时间。
Then there was another one.
然后还有另一件事。
I didn’t look as long for him, and I’m not sure why.
我没有找他那么久，我也不知道为什么。
Maybe a couple months.
也许几个月。
At what point do you feel justified in replacing the lost cat?
您在什么时候觉得有必要更换丢失的猫？
You might still be looking, but you say, “Well, I need to move on.
你可能仍在寻找，但你会说：“好吧，我需要继续前进。
I’m going to get another cat.
我要去再养一只猫。
If this one comes back, I’ll have an extra.”
如果这个回来了，我就多一份。”
I wouldn’t justify it.
我不会为此辩解。
It’s just what I feel compelled to do.
这正是我觉得有必要做的事情。
What do you think of the people who clone their dead or missing cat to produce a replacement?
您如何看待那些克隆死去或失踪的猫来生产替代品的人？
This happens in South Korea fairly often, right?
这种事在韩国经常发生吧？
Put it this way: It’s not something I understand.
这么说吧：这不是我能理解的。
It’s just not something I understand.
这不是我能理解的事情。
But if you miss your cat, and you’re attuned to the visual cues of your cat especially, and you want what you think will be the same cat all over again, you clone it.
但如果你想念你的猫，并且你特别适应你的猫的视觉线索，并且你想要你认为的那只猫再次出现，你就克隆它。
I can’t.
我不能。
You can’t?
你不能吗？
I could not understand that as the same cat, no. It’s because it looks like the cat?
我无法理解这是同一只猫，不。就因为它长得像猫？
It’s not the same thing.
这不是同一件事。
I can’t grasp how anyone could see that as the same animal.
我不明白怎么会有人将其视为同一动物。
Is it worth it that it looks like the same cat?
看起来像同一只猫值得吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It’s just incomprehensible to me.
这对我来说简直无法理解。
Should socially awkward people focus on writing online?
社交尴尬的人应该专注于在线写作吗？
Again, that would depend on the person.
同样，这取决于人。
I think, for some people, it might actually be very helpful to them for a while.
我想，对于某些人来说，实际上可能对他们一段时间很有帮助。
If it helps them connect eventually to a physical world, then I think it’s great.
如果它能帮助他们最终连接到物理世界，那么我认为这很棒。
I think some people — that might be, say, somebody who lives in a place where there’s no one who shares their sexual orientation.
我认为有些人——比如说，可能是那些生活在没有人认同他们性取向的地方的人。
Say they’re queer, and that’s really not an accepted thing to be where you live, so you go online, you find people like yourself, and you realize, “If I go to a different place, here’s some people I could know ahead of time.” That’s great.
说他们是酷儿，这在你居住的地方确实是不被接受的事情，所以你上网，找到像你这样的人，然后你意识到，“如果我去另一个地方，这里有一些我可以提前认识的人。”那太棒了。
Even if you’re in a more subtle situation, where you don’t belong in some discrete category that’s looked down on, but you are just really awkward, and you have a hard time meeting people and fitting in, it might be good for you to be online for a while, just to feel like, “Oh, there are other people here I can connect with.
即使你处于一种更微妙的情况，你不属于某个被轻视的离散类别，但你真的很尴尬，你很难认识别人并融入其中，对你来说上网一段时间可能会有好处，只是感觉，“哦，这里还有其他我可以联系的人。
I can connect with other human beings.” If that supports you in somehow getting out in the world, then I think it’s excellent.
我可以与其他人建立联系。”如果这能以某种方式支持你走出去，那么我认为那就太好了。
But if you’re like one of the many people we’ve read about, that that becomes the only thing you do, and it actually makes it harder for you to connect with real people, obviously, that is a disaster.
但如果你像我们读过的许多人中的一个一样，那就成为你唯一做的事情，这实际上让你更难与真实的人建立联系，显然，这是一场灾难。
Apparently, that happens a lot.
显然，这种情况经常发生。
What are the dangers in getting such rapid feedback on your writing all the time if you’re writing online?
如果你在网上写作，那么一直获得如此快速的写作反馈会有什么危险？
I am.
我是。
Sure.
当然。
What’s the danger of the rapid feedback?
快速反馈有什么危险？
It drives you crazy, you get too upset, you always feel you have to respond, you can just ignore it, or .
它让你发疯，你变得太沮丧，你总是觉得你必须回应，你可以忽略它，或者。
.
。
.
。
?
？
For you.
为你。
For me, it’s that I feel like I have to respond.
对我来说，我觉得我必须做出回应。
It’s not even that I feel I have to.
我什至觉得我不必这样做。
I know I don’t have to, but if somebody says anything at all interesting, I want to respond.
我知道我没有必要这样做，但如果有人说了一些有趣的话，我想做出回应。
It’s very difficult for me not to respond because I’m curious, especially if it’s somebody who’s saying something that is very different from people I know in life.
我很难不做出回应，因为我很好奇，特别是当某人说的话与我生活中认识的人非常不同时。
I have a couple of people on my Substack who comment every now and then.
我的子堆栈上有几个人时不时地发表评论。
They don’t usually speak in a political way, but occasionally they do, and I learn they’re actually Trump supporters.
他们通常不会以政治方式说话，但偶尔也会这样做，而且我了解到他们实际上是特朗普的支持者。
I know very few.
我认识的人很少。
In fact, in my personal, I know one person who may be a Trump-supporter-ish person, but I know very few people like that, so I’m right away quite curious about that person.
事实上，就我个人而言，我认识一个可能是特朗普支持者的人，但我认识的人很少，所以我立刻对那个人很好奇。
I don’t engage them politically, usually — or once I did.
我通常不会与他们进行政治接触——或者曾经这样做过。
It’s interesting to me, if I don’t know a type of person, to have that opportunity to connect with them a little bit that way.
对我来说很有趣的是，如果我不认识某种类型的人，有机会以这种方式与他们建立联系。
What have you most learned about yourself, your own writing, from having started a Substack?
从创建 Substack 中，您对自己、自己的写作最了解的是什么？
I have learned something, but I’m not sure I can articulate it quickly: that it’s refreshing.
我学到了一些东西，但我不确定我能否快速表达出来：它令人耳目一新。
It’s been refreshing to me to be in a writing situation where I’m not so careful about what I say.
在写作的情况下，我对自己所说的话不再那么小心，这让我感到耳目一新。
I go over it sometimes and see I’ve made ridiculous mistakes in terms of dropped words or incorrect grammar, but it’s worth it because it’s freeing to have that uninhibited flow with people.
有时我会回顾一下，发现自己犯了一些可笑的错误，比如漏词或语法错误，但这是值得的，因为与人自由自在地交流。
I don’t know if I can say exactly what I’ve learned, but it’s definitely been something.
我不知道我是否可以准确地说出我学到了什么，但这绝对是一些东西。
Also, it’s been interesting for me to see how social media can be very positive in some ways because I’ve always been extremely wary of it.
另外，看到社交媒体如何在某些方面发挥积极作用对我来说很有趣，因为我一直对此非常警惕。
It’s the first time I’ve been on anything like social media, but people — there’s politeness to it.
这是我第一次使用社交媒体之类的东西，但是人们 - 这是有礼貌的。
The thing about social media that everybody knows is, it allows people to be really awful in a way they wouldn’t in person because it’s easy to be really insulting and gross if you don’t even have to look at the person’s reaction or deal with the fact they may want to punch you in the face.
众所周知，社交媒体让人们变得非常糟糕，而这是他们在面对面时所不会的，因为如果你甚至不需要看别人的反应，或者不需要处理他们可能想打你脸的事实，那么很容易变得非常侮辱和粗俗。
But there’s another thing I’ve learned: that people can also be much more polite for exactly that reason.
但我还学到了另一件事：正是因为这个原因，人们也可以变得更有礼貌。
You don’t really know who you’re talking to, so you don’t want to quickly assume something about what they’re saying.
你并不真正知道你在和谁说话，所以你不想快速假设他们所说的内容。
If I’m with the person, and they say something, one, I feel like I have to respond quickly.
如果我和那个人在一起，他们说了一些话，一，我觉得我必须迅速做出回应。
Two, I may jump to conclusions based on old habits or old ideas about the type of person I’m looking at.
第二，我可能会根据我所看到的人的类型的旧习惯或旧观念草率地得出结论。
But if I don’t have any of those cues — it’s just something they’re typing — first, I don’t have to respond quickly, and two, I’ve sometimes started to be really sarcastic in my responses to people.
但如果我没有任何这些线索 ——这只是他们正在输入的东西 ——首先，我不必快速回应，第二，我有时会开始在对别人的回应中变得非常讽刺。
Then I’ve looked at it and realized I don’t know if this person is meaning to be sarcastic to me.
后来我看了一下，不知道这个人是不是有意讽刺我。
I don’t know if this person is joking.
不知道这个人是不是在开玩笑。
Somebody said something, and I almost typed, “I hope you’re joking.
有人说了些什么，我几乎打字说：“我希望你在开玩笑。
You’re joking, right?” Then I looked at it again and realized I don’t know that he is.
你是在开玩笑吧？”然后我又看了一遍，发现我不认识他。
I want to clarify, so I’ll ask a question first before I come in with an immediate response.
我想澄清一下，所以我会先问一个问题，然后再立即回复。
I’ve noticed most people are very polite, maybe for the same reason.
我注意到大多数人都非常有礼貌，也许是出于同样的原因。
That’s been really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Why did you recently pause your Substack?
您最近为什么暂停您的子堆栈？
Oh, because it was .
哦，因为它是。
.
。
.
。
Here’s the down part of it.
这是它的下半部分。
To get the quick responses does supercharge my mind in a way that’s both good and bad.
得到快速回复确实会以一种既好又坏的方式增强我的思维。
It’s stimulating, but sometimes it’s stimulating in a way that’s weird.
它很刺激，但有时它的刺激方式很奇怪。
It’s jangling.
叮当作响。
It’s almost like your brain electricity is crossed with other people’s, and it’s just too much, and it doesn’t have the grounding quality that it would if you were actually seeing those people and talking over drinks or something.
这几乎就像你的脑电与其他人的脑电交叉一样，而且它太多了，并且它不具备接地质量，如果你真的看到那些人并一边喝酒或做其他事情的话。
There’s a physical reality that comes from just being with people, even if there’s a lot of stimulation.
即使有很多刺激，只要与人在一起，就会产生一种物理现实。
There’s something that’s hard to articulate.
有件事很难说清楚。
There’s an animal quality of comfort if you’re really with them.
如果你真的和他们在一起，就会有一种动物般的舒适感。
Even if you’re quarrelling with them, it’s still that grounded, real quality.
即使你和他们吵架，那也是脚踏实地、真实的品质。
You don’t have that when you’re just communicating online.
当你只是在线交流时，你就没有这样的能力。
It’s just this electrical connection, which is, to me, a little is jarring.
只是这种电气连接对我来说有点不舒服。
I think it is for a lot of people.
我认为这对很多人来说都是如此。
I thought maybe it’s just because I was old and not used to it, but when I published that — I needed to stop because I’m getting overstimulated — a lot of younger people, like former students, emailed me and said, “Yes, that’s how I feel.” That surprised me.
我想也许只是因为我老了，不习惯，但当我发表这篇文章时 —— 我需要停下来，因为我受到过度刺激 ——很多年轻人，比如以前的学生，给我发电子邮件说，“是的，这就是我的感受。”这让我很惊讶。
Why is Lolita such an intriguing novel for you?
为什么《洛丽塔》对你来说是一本如此有趣的小说？
Probably the same reason it’s intriguing for a lot of people.
可能这也是很多人感兴趣的原因。
One thing, it’s incredibly beautiful.
一件事，它非常美丽。
The beauty is not simply decorative.
美丽不仅仅是装饰性的。
It’s to take you to a really deep place.
就是带你去一个很深的地方。
Again, like that physical reality that I’ve talked about before.
再次，就像我之前谈到的物理现实一样。
He has an extraordinary ability to render the complexity of the physical world and to deepen whatever his story is about by really drawing you into that and making you understand the vastness of the world, and also how it’s informing all of the people and the feelings, the weirdness of the complexity, the yearning of, say, Mrs. Haze and Humbert and Lolita for some kind of profound connection, and why it’s leading them to behave in horrible ways.
他具有非凡的能力来呈现物质世界的复杂性，并通过真正吸引你进入其中并让你了解世界的广阔性来加深他的故事的内容，以及它如何告知所有人和感受，复杂性的怪异，黑兹夫人、亨伯特和洛丽塔对某种深刻联系的渴望，以及为什么它导致他们做出可怕的行为。
Lolita’s innocent; she’s a kid.
洛丽塔是无辜的；她是个孩子。
She’s not developed enough to be horrible, but the adults are — what they’re doing, and what their needs are that is drawing them into these intricate ways of just evil, actually, and yet enabling you to feel their humanity in the way they respond to the world around them.
她还没有发育到可怕的程度，但成年人是——他们正在做的事情，他们的需求是什么，实际上把他们引入了这些错综复杂的邪恶方式，但让你从他们对周围世界的反应中感受到他们的人性。
Also, the way it makes you feel in this extreme case, like Humbert is a monster, but he also has elements that we can recognize.
另外，在这种极端的情况下，它让你感觉就像亨伯特是一个怪物，但他也有我们可以识别的元素。
I can’t say a developed answer quickly, but I wrote about it— how I feel that it makes us, again, in that very subtle, subliminal way, without thinking it out — unless you have to write an essay about it — that it makes you understand the relationship of pure feelings of love with all the terrible things that people are, too — the rapaciousness, the jealousy, the cruelty, the greed, the selfishness — all of those things that human beings have can also be in very close proximity to our desire for love and our drive to love other people.
我不能很快说出一个成熟的答案，但我写了它——我觉得它再次以一种非常微妙、潜意识的方式，不经深思熟虑地让我们变得 ——“除非你必须写一篇关于它的文章 ——它让你理解纯粹的爱的感觉与人们所有可怕的事情之间的关系—— 贪婪，嫉妒，残忍，贪婪，自私——人类所拥有的所有这些东西也与我们对爱的渴望和爱他人的动力非常接近。
It can be really hard for everybody, whether you’re having a pedophiliac impulse at all, and it can be with your sister, with your brother, with your friend, with your parents — this really complex relationship of the feelings of love with all these other really dark elements.
这对每个人来说都可能非常困难，无论你是否有恋童癖的冲动，也可能是与你的妹妹、你的兄弟、你的朋友、你的父母——这种爱的感觉与所有其他黑暗元素之间非常复杂的关系。
I think that’s what ultimately makes it so powerful.
我认为这最终使它如此强大。
Do you agree that the Kubrick movie of Lolita is quite disappointing?
你是否同意库布里克的《洛丽塔》电影相当令人失望？
I haven’t seen it for a long time.
我已经很久没看到它了。
It’s certainly not as good as the novel.
肯定没有小说里的那么好。
I think it’s very hard to put that novel in film because so much of it is about such precise internal observations that you just can’t put on film.
我认为把这部小说拍成电影是非常困难的，因为它的大部分内容都是关于如此精确的内部观察，所以你无法把它拍成电影。
It doesn’t work.
这不起作用。
Franz Kafka’s story “In the Penal Colony” — why is it interesting to you, and how do you read it?
弗朗兹·卡夫卡的故事《在流放地》 ——你为什么对它感兴趣？你是如何读它的？
I need to really think these things out before I can answer them well, but I think it’s very much about .
在我能够很好地回答这些问题之前，我需要认真思考这些问题，但我认为这非常重要。
.
。
.
。
Again, for those of you who haven’t read it, it’s a terrible story in a lot of ways.
再说一次，对于那些没有读过这本书的人来说，这在很多方面都是一个可怕的故事。
It’s a totally fantastical idea of someone from another country coming to visit a penal colony with an absolutely bizarre society, seemingly, although it’s quite recognizable.
这是一个完全奇幻的想法，来自另一个国家的人来到一个流放地，那里的社会看起来非常奇怪，尽管它很容易辨认。
If you think about it, it’s quite real.
如果你仔细想想，这确实是事实。
One of their rituals is, the prisoners there have a set of impossible rules.
他们的仪式之一是，那里的囚犯有一套不可能的规则。
They’re governed by an elite set of people who have plenty of money and leisure.
他们由一群拥有大量金钱和闲暇的精英统治。
If they break any rule — for example, if you’re supposed to sit outside an officer’s door and wake up every half-hour and salute him, and if you fail to do that, then you have to be strapped facedown onto this machine, which will very slowly, over a period of 12 hours or something, write with needles on your back the rule that you’ve broken.
如果他们违反了任何规则——例如，如果你应该坐在一名警官的门外，每半小时醒来并向他致敬，如果你没有做到这一点，那么你必须面朝下被绑在这台机器上，这台机器会非常缓慢地在 12 个小时左右的时间里，用针在你的背上写下你违反的规则。
Sometimes they’ll just write it.
有时他们只是写下来。
Other times, they’ll write it until you’re dead, until your body is basically broken.
其他时候，他们会写到你死了，直到你的身体基本上崩溃了。
The main character is a guy who just loves this machine, thinks it’s the most beautiful, holy thing in the world.
主角是一个非常喜欢这台机器的人，认为它是世界上最美丽、最神圣的东西。
He’s enraged because the liberals in his society are trying to banish the punishment.
他很愤怒，因为他的社会中的自由主义者试图废除这种惩罚。
He’s trying to persuade the visitor to write something or to say something that will make them realize we must maintain this sacred institution of torturing people to death in front of a crowd, including children.
他试图说服访客写点什么或说点什么，让他们意识到我们必须维持这种在包括儿童在内的人群面前折磨致死的神圣制度。
That sounds familiar right away, when you think of medieval times, or times in history when people have been tortured to death, including in this country — lynching, and witch-burning for the amusement of a crowd or the edification of a crowd.
当你想到中世纪或历史上人们被折磨致死的时代时，这听起来很熟悉，包括在这个国家——私刑，以及为了娱乐人群或教育人群而焚烧女巫。
What’s amazing is he actually locates you in .
令人惊奇的是他居然找到了你。
.
。
.
。
He makes the officer who’s pushing for this weirdly sympathetic.
他让推动此事的警官产生了奇怪的同情心。
That’s one of the amazing things about it, that even though he’s evil in some way, he believes in something in a way that nobody else seems to.
这是令人惊奇的事情之一，尽管他在某种程度上是邪恶的，但他以一种其他人似乎都不相信的方式相信某些东西。
The prisoner and the guard — the person who’s guarding him — are oafish figures, stupid oafish figures, like animals almost.
囚犯和看守——看守他的人——都是愚蠢的人物，愚蠢的愚蠢人物，几乎就像动物一样。
You’d have to read it to see how he accomplishes this, but it’s quite remarkable.
你必须阅读它才能了解他是如何实现这一目标的，但这非常了不起。
Also, to me, it’s such a complex story.
而且，对我来说，这是一个非常复杂的故事。
It’s almost like a dream.
这几乎就像一个梦。
It almost exists outside any rational thinking.
它几乎存在于任何理性思维之外。
It comes from that deep place that nature comes from, almost.
它几乎来自自然所来自的那个深处。
It’s also, to me, about how people really — not all people, but there’s a big part of humanity that craves irrational, authoritarian governance.
对我来说，这也是关于人们实际上——不是所有人，但有很大一部分人渴望非理性的、独裁的治理。
That’s part of what I think makes it powerful.
我认为这就是它强大的部分原因。
It’s why people vote for dictators and why people support dictators.
这就是为什么人们投票支持独裁者以及人们支持独裁者的原因。
Some people crave that.
有些人渴望这样。
It’s beyond dominance.
这已经超越了统治地位。
It’s just someone telling them what to do and having a heavy hand that will govern them in a way that’s truly brutal.
只是有人告诉他们该做什么，并用严厉的手段以一种真正残酷的方式统治他们。
Some people want that, and it isn’t about masochism in a sexual way.
有些人想要这样，但这与性方面的受虐狂无关。
It’s beyond that.
还不止于此。
It’s very weird.
这很奇怪。
Which do you think are the best Norman Mailer writings?
您认为诺曼·梅勒最好的著作是哪些？
I haven’t read all of them.
我还没有读完所有的内容。
I haven’t read, for example, The Executioner’s Song, which some people think is his best, although other people think he actually got somebody else to write that.
例如，我还没有读过《刽子手之歌》，有些人认为这是他最好的作品，尽管其他人认为他实际上是让别人写的。
I have no idea.
我不知道。
The first half is amazing, I think, but then it somewhat falls apart.
我认为前半部分很精彩，但后来就有点崩溃了。
I think it’s real Mailer, and it’s worth reading.
我认为这是真正的梅勒，值得一读。
Yes, I should.
是的，我应该。
I’m very poorly read for a writer, actually.
事实上，作为一个作家，我的阅读能力很差。
I actually love The Naked and the Dead.
其实我很喜欢《裸者与死者》。
It’s nowhere near as sophisticated as his other writings, or as weird, but it’s quite powerful and beautiful, especially the opening — the innocence of the soldier who’s getting off the boat and has no idea what he’s walking into, and gets shot within moments.
它远不像他的其他作品那么复杂，也不像他的其他作品那样怪异，但它非常有力和美丽，尤其是开头——士兵的天真，他下了船，不知道自己走进了什么，然后在片刻之内就被枪杀了。
Anyway, I really liked Armies of the Night, and it’s a horrible book in some ways.
不管怎样，我真的很喜欢《夜之军团》，从某些方面来说这是一本可怕的书。
I really have enjoyed An American Dream.
我真的很喜欢《美国梦》。
It’s so kooky.
太奇怪了。
I read some other ones that I’m finding difficult to recall.
我读过一些我发现很难回忆起来的其他内容。
Oh, The Fight, I thought, was very interesting.
哦，我觉得《战斗》非常有趣。
I don’t know if I think it’s great, but it’s interesting and has some great moments.
我不知道我是否认为这很棒，但它很有趣并且有一些很棒的时刻。
Harlot’s Ghost is surprisingly good, I think.
我认为《妓女之魂》出奇地好。
You feel it has to be too long, but somehow it isn’t.
你觉得它一定太长了，但不知怎的，事实并非如此。
Yes.
是的。
If you think about your own writings, there’s some inner body to them that makes them appealing to other people.
如果你想想你自己的作品，你会发现它们有一些内在的东西使其对其他人有吸引力。
Did you have a self-conception of what that inner body is?
你对内在身体有一个自我概念吗？
You mean a strong character?
你是说性格坚强吗？
There’s some strength on the page or vividness of feeling that, I think, sets you apart from any other writer.
我认为，页面上的某种力量或生动的感觉使您与其他作家区分开来。
Just what’s your self-understanding of that?
您对此有何自我理解？
I don’t know, because it’s something that I would take for granted.
我不知道，因为我认为这是理所当然的。
It’s hard to understand it really.
真正理解它很难。
I think you’re talking about what I described in one of my Substack essays as an inner weave that I think good work has.
我认为你正在谈论我在一篇 Substack 文章中所描述的内容，即我认为好的作品所具有的内在编织。
It’s almost like a vision of life that the writer isn’t even aware of when they’re writing it, because it’s so integral to them.
这几乎就像作者在写作时甚至没有意识到的生活愿景，因为它对他们来说是如此不可或缺。
But if they are connecting their vision of life with their actual style — the words they choose — it can be quite strong, like Nabokov has that incredibly.
但是，如果他们将自己的生活愿景与自己的实际风格（“他们选择的词语”）联系起来，那么它就会非常强大，就像纳博科夫那样令人难以置信。
All great writers have it, and even good writers have it.
所有伟大的作家都有它，甚至优秀的作家也有它。
Now, in some of your writing, there is sex, not sexual scenes explicitly.
现在，在你的一些作品中，有性，但没有明确的性场景。
But if you think about Victorian novels, they pretty much always avoid the sex.
但如果你想想维多利亚时代的小说，你会发现它们几乎总是回避性。
Does that make them inherently flawed?
这是否使他们存在固有的缺陷？
No. I think that even Victorian novels — it’s there.
不，我认为即使是维多利亚时代的小说也存在。
The first thing that pops into mind is Bleak House.
第一个想到的就是《荒凉山庄》。
You don’t think Dickens is a sexual writer at all, but he is.
你根本不认为狄更斯是一位性作家，但他确实是。
He doesn’t do it explicitly, but Lady Dedlock — very, very.
他没有明确地这样做，但戴德洛克夫人 ——非常，非常。
Have you read that book?
你读过那本书吗？
Sure.
当然。
I love that book.
我喜欢那本书。
It’s one of my favorites.
这是我的最爱之一。
Lady Dedlock is a very erotic figure.
戴德洛克夫人是一个非常色情的人物。
Her intense female strength, her intense masking, the idea that she’s always hiding something.
她强烈的女性力量，她强烈的掩饰，她总是隐藏着某些东西的想法。
She’s like a Diana Rigg figure in The Avengers — Emma Peel.
她就像《复仇者联盟》中的戴安娜·里格——艾玛·皮尔。
Older people might get that reference.
老年人可能会得到这个参考。
She’s super elegant.
她超级优雅。
The lawyer, the guy — Tulkinghorn, I think his name is — who decides to expose her, like their conversation is quite highly eroticized in a S&M way.
那个律师，那个决定揭露她的家伙——“塔尔金霍恩，我想他的名字是——”，就像他们的谈话以一种 S&M 的方式高度色情化一样。
I’m trying to think of somebody else.
我试着想想别人。
The name is escaping me.
这个名字让我忘记了。
Edith Wharton.
伊迪丝·沃顿.
One of her books, I remember, House of Mirth, the interplay between the male characters and the female heroine.
我记得她的一本书《欢乐屋》，讲述了男性角色和女主角之间的相互作用。
Definitely, you get a sense of masculine power and feminine response, which is, I remember, being subtly eroticized.
当然，你会感受到男性的力量和女性的反应，我记得，这被巧妙地色情化了。
Henry James — oh my goodness.
亨利·詹姆斯——天哪。
Everybody knows Turn of the Screw is heavily eroticized.
大家都知道《螺丝在拧紧》是非常色情的。
I think there’s quite a lot you can do with very subtle means without overtly referring to sexuality.
我认为你可以用非常微妙的方式做很多事情，而无需公开提及性。
Do you ever read children’s books?
你读过儿童读物吗？
Yes.
是的。
Young adult fiction?
青少年小说？
Sometimes.
有时。
A few years ago, I read the entire His Dark Materials trilogy, and I really enjoyed that.
几年前，我读了整个《黑暗物质》三部曲，我真的很喜欢。
What do you think is your most unusual, yet successful, reading habit?
您认为您最不寻常但最成功的阅读习惯是什么？
I don’t think I have any unusual reading habits.
我不认为我有什么不寻常的阅读习惯。
Some general questions.
一些一般性问题。
At what age is it too old to get a tattoo?
几岁才不适合纹身呢？
I’ve never thought about that.
我从来没有想过这个。
I don’t have a tattoo.
我没有纹身。
Nor do I.
我也没有。
I feel I’m too old for one, also.
我也觉得自己太老了。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
The problem is, as you get older, you’re probably going to be covering more of your body.
问题是，随着年龄的增长，你可能会覆盖更多的身体部位。
It would be less visually appealing on old skin, but if you want to get it just purely for yourself, and no one else will ever see it, I guess you’re never too old, but I don’t really have an opinion.
对于老皮肤来说，它在视觉上的吸引力会降低，但如果你纯粹想为自己得到它，而没有人会看到它，我想你永远不会太老，但我真的没有意见。
What do you think should be the ground rules for when you should be able to write about other people in fiction without their permission?
当你能够在未经他人许可的情况下在小说中描写其他人时，你认为应该遵循什么基本规则？
We all know Karl Knausgård.
我们都知道卡尔·诺斯加德。
A lot of his family got quite mad at him.
他的很多家人都对他很生气。
Some of them were not talking to him because he wrote about them so openly.
他们中的一些人没有与他交谈，因为他如此公开地写下了他们。
It’s a fictional work.
这是一部虚构的作品。
It’s fiction and it’s not fiction, right?
这是小说，又不是小说，对吧？
My own personal ground rules are, well, it depends if you’re speaking to the person or not.
我个人的基本规则是，这取决于你是否与这个人交谈。
Also, if you know how to find them.
另外，如果您知道如何找到它们。
I once, at least — and I’ve probably done it more than once — wrote about somebody.
我至少有一次——而且可能不止一次——写过关于某人的事。
They were in my past.
他们是我的过去。
I actually didn’t know how to locate them.
我实际上不知道如何找到它们。
It would be easier now, but I’m not even on Facebook.
现在就容易多了，但我什至都不用 Facebook。
Also, they may not be on Facebook either.
此外，他们也可能不在 Facebook 上。
I went ahead and wrote about her, and she got in touch with me later, really hopping mad.
我继续写了关于她的事，她后来联系了我，真的很生气。
I felt bad, but I explained it to her.
我心里很难受，但我还是向她解释了。
“To me, that character wasn’t really you,” which people never believe it when you say that, but in this case, it was actually true.
“对我来说，那个角色并不是真正的你”，当你这么说时，人们永远不会相信，但在这种情况下，这确实是真的。
“Yes, she was based on you, but also, I didn’t know how to reach you.” Also, she’d changed her name legally, so that made it even harder.
“是的，她是基于你，但我也不知道如何联系到你。”而且，她已经合法改名了，这让事情变得更加困难。
But normally, what I would do, if I’m on speaking terms with them — if I’m not, it’s a different story — is I write it first.
但通常情况下，如果我能和他们谈得来，我会先写下来——如果不是，那就是另外一个故事了。
I don’t ask their permission first.
我没有先征求他们的许可。
That’s a can of worms.
那是一罐蠕虫。
I write it first, and then I show it to them, and I ask, “Is there anything you really want me to change?” Normally, people are quite reasonable.
我先写下来，然后给他们看，然后我问：“你们真的希望我改变什么吗？”一般情况下，人都是很讲道理的。
They appreciate it that you asked them, and they’ll come up with .
他们很感激你向他们提出要求，他们会想出办法的。
.
。
.
。
They’ll say this and this and this.
他们会说这个、这个、这个。
Usually, it’s been things I’m okay changing.
通常，我可以改变一些事情。
I don’t think anyone’s ever asked me to change something that I just absolutely felt would ruin the piece.
我认为没有人要求我改变一些我绝对认为会毁掉作品的东西。
Those are my ground rules.
这些是我的基本规则。
How much do you miss the New York City of the 1980s?
你有多怀念 20 世纪 80 年代的纽约？
Sometimes I do.
有时我会。
I don’t think about it mostly, but sometimes I’ll walk by a place I was familiar with and be like, “Oh, I wish things were like that still.
我大部分时间都不会去想它，但有时我会走过一个我熟悉的地方，然后说：“哦，我希望事情还是那样。
I wish I could go back to that time.” Maybe 10 percent of the time.
我希望我能回到那个时候。”也许有百分之十的时间。
What do you think of the master of arts in creative writing?
您对创意写作艺术硕士有何看法？
Is it a waste?
是浪费吗？
Is it ruining American writers?
它毁掉了美国作家吗？
Is it helping them?
对他们有帮助吗？
Is it irrelevant?
是不是无关紧要？
Well, again, it depends on the person.
嗯，再说一遍，这取决于人。
I hate to keep saying that, but I really believe that.
我讨厌一直这样说，但我真的相信这一点。
I’ve come to have a more negative opinion than I used to.
我的看法比以前更加消极。
When it first happened, when I first was aware of it in the late ’80s, early ’90s, I thought it was fine.
当它第一次发生时，当我在 80 年代末、90 年代初第一次意识到它时，我认为这很好。
My basic attitude is, if you are going to be a writer, a writing program isn’t going to hurt you.
我的基本态度是，如果你想成为一名作家，写作程序不会伤害你。
It may not help you that much either, but if you’re going to be a writer, why not?
它可能对你也没有多大帮助，但如果你想成为一名作家，为什么不呢？
Sure, you could take it.
当然，你可以接受。
It’s not going to ruin you, or may not help you that much.
它不会毁掉你，也不会给你太大帮助。
I always thought it was silly, people saying, “It’s going to ruin American writers.
我一直认为这很愚蠢，人们说：“这会毁掉美国作家。
It’s going to make it uniform.
它将使其统一。
They’re going to be grinding out people cookie cutters.” That, I don’t think, is true at all.
他们将把人们磨成饼干。”我认为这根本不是真的。
Writers who work in these programs — you’re not interested in making people write like you.
在这些项目中工作的作家 — 你对让人们像你一样写作不感兴趣。
You couldn’t.
你不能。
Why would you want to do that?
你为什么要这么做？
It’s impossible, and it would be exhausting to try.
这是不可能的，而且尝试起来会很累。
People are going to respond to your comments differently.
人们会对你的评论做出不同的反应。
That’s ridiculous to think that.
这样想真是可笑。
First, I do want to say that also, my basic feeling about them at the beginning was, some people do not belong in those programs.
首先，我也想说，我一开始对他们的基本感觉是，有些人不属于这些计划。
It’s not going to help them.
这对他们没有帮助。
It just confuses them.
这只会让他们感到困惑。
I would not have liked a writing program when I was younger.
当我年轻的时候，我不会喜欢写作程序。
It would’ve simply confused me.
这只会让我感到困惑。
Some people do not thrive in a workshop environment.
有些人在车间环境中无法成长。
It intimidates them.
这会吓到他们。
There are certain people who will dominate the workshop just naturally.
有些人自然会主导研讨会。
Some people fade in the background.
有些人逐渐消失在背景中。
Some people don’t like that.
有些人不喜欢这样。
Some people, though, it’s great.
但有些人，这很棒。
They love it.
他们喜欢它。
They love the quick feedback.
他们喜欢快速反馈。
It focuses them on their work really well.
这让他们能够很好地专注于自己的工作。
They thrive.
他们茁壮成长。
So, some people, it’s great for.
所以，对于某些人来说，这非常有用。
What I have come to think is negative about it is the fact that people think they’ve got to do it.
我认为它的消极之处在于人们认为他们必须这样做。
Even some editors, I think, expect that people have gone through this program.
我认为，甚至一些编辑也期望人们已经完成了这个程序。
That, I think, is quite destructive because of the reason I just said.
我认为，由于我刚才所说的原因，这是相当具有破坏性的。
For some people — they don’t do well in it, and it doesn’t help them.
对于有些人来说——他们做得不好，这对他们没有帮助。
It’s expensive.
很贵。
Even if it’s not expensive — a lot of programs do have a lot of leeway.
即使它并不昂贵 ——很多项目也确实有很大的回旋余地。
They let people in with a lot of stipend and a lot of help, but still it’s going to cost them money because they’re not going to be working while they’re in that program, or they’re going to be teaching to make up for the fact that they’re not paying.
他们为人们提供了大量的津贴和帮助，但这仍然会花费他们的钱，因为他们在参与该计划时不会工作，或者他们将通过教学来弥补他们不付钱的事实。
That’s hard.
这很难。
At the best-case scenario, they learn a skill that they can later use.
在最好的情况下，他们学到了以后可以使用的技能。
But if they’re not a person who ever wants to be in academia, they never get a teaching job, that’s a worthless skill, and it’s demanding of their energy.
但如果他们不是一个想进入学术界的人，他们就永远找不到一份教学工作，这是一项毫无价值的技能，而且需要他们的精力。
Again, they’re going to get into debt one way or the other, and they may get nothing out of this.
再说一次，他们会以这种或那种方式陷入债务，而且他们可能会从中一无所获。
They’ve gone into debt and basically wasted two or three years of their life.
他们负债累累，基本上浪费了两三年的时间。
That’s a danger.
这是一个危险。
I think a lot of people don’t realize, “I may not be a person who can get something out of this, and I do not have to go through this program.” You don’t have to do that to be a writer.
我想很多人都没有意识到，“我可能不是一个能从中得到什么的人，我也不必经历这个项目。”你不必为了成为一名作家而这样做。
I’ve heard people say this: “You’ve got to do this if you want to be a writer.” That, I think, is really destructive.
我听人们这样说过：“如果你想成为一名作家，你就必须这样做。”我认为这确实具有破坏性。
As an undergraduate, why didn’t you fit into University of Michigan?
作为一名本科生，你为什么没有融入密歇根大学？
What makes you think I didn’t?
是什么让你认为我没有？
Oh, I think you said it somewhere, and you left, right?
哦，我想你在什么地方说过，然后你就离开了，对吗？
No.
不。
So, you did finish, and you were happy there?
那么，你确实完成了，而且你在那里很高兴吗？
No, but it was mainly because I was older.
不，但这主要是因为我年纪大了。
I didn’t share the experiences .
我没有分享这些经历。
.
。
.
。
I had gone to community college first, and even then, I got into it older because I didn’t graduate from high school.
我先是上了社区大学，即便如此，我进入大学的年龄也比较大，因为我高中还没有毕业。
I came with a different background than most people.
我的背景与大多数人不同。
I had lived on my own for years.
我已经独自生活了很多年。
I had had experiences that most people, undergraduates .
我和大多数人、本科生都有过同样的经历。
.
。
.
。
I didn’t hang out with most undergraduates at all.
我根本不和大多数本科生一起出去玩。
I was friends with older people who were either graduate students or were people who were just hanging out in Ann Arbor because they’d graduated, and they hadn’t figured out what else they wanted to do.
我和年长的人是朋友，他们要么是研究生，要么是因为毕业而在安娜堡闲逛的人，他们不知道自己还想做什么。
But even them — I just came from a completely different place.
但即使是他们 —— 我也只是来自完全不同的地方。
I had worked as a stripper.
我曾当过脱衣舞娘。
I had had just a very different experience.
我有过一次非常不同的经历。
I didn’t come from high school and right from my parents’ house to the university, but some of the people who were living in Ann Arbor didn’t come from that either.
我不是从高中毕业就从父母家直接上大学的，但住在安娜堡的一些人也不是来自那里。
They had also been supporting themselves in the world for a while as well.
他们也已经在这个世界上养活了一段时间了。
It wasn’t like I was radically different from those people, but there were differences.
我和那些人并没有完全不同，但还是有区别的。
Working as a stripper, what do you think you learned about men?
作为一名脱衣舞娘，你认为你从男人身上学到了什么？
Well, first, I should say that the kind of strip club I was working in was quite different from what people must think of now.
好吧，首先，我应该说，我当时工作的那种脱衣舞俱乐部与人们现在所想象的有很大不同。
It wasn’t like a lap dancing place.
这不像是膝上舞场所。
There was only one woman on stage at a time.
舞台上一次只有一名女性。
It wasn’t like there were three women, and they were moving through the audience and having a lot of physical contact with men.
不像是三个女人，她们在观众席中走来走去，与男人有很多身体接触。
There was no pole dancing, which I think is awesome, by the way.
顺便说一下，没有钢管舞，我认为这很棒。
Pole dancing can be quite amazing, but the women didn’t have to do that.
钢管舞可能非常令人惊叹，但女性不必这样做。
It was nowhere near as demanding.
它的要求远没有那么高。
They just basically went up on stage by themselves, walked back and forth, smiled at people or didn’t, and created a persona.
他们基本上只是自己走上舞台，来回走动，对人们微笑或不微笑，并创造一个角色。
What I learned, I guess, in this very particular setting — this would not apply in a lap dancing venue — that men can be quite romantic about women in that situation, that they sometimes would fall in love with a persona that a certain woman would have.
我想，在这个非常特殊的环境中——这不适用于膝上舞场所——在这种情况下，男人对女人可能会非常浪漫，他们有时会爱上某个女人所拥有的角色。
The women would create .
女性会创造。
.
。
.
。
not all of the women.
不是所有的女人。
Some women just went on there, they danced around, did their thing, that was it.
有些女人只是继续在那里，她们跳舞，做她们的事，就是这样。
But the most popular strippers — it wasn’t about being beautiful.
但最受欢迎的脱衣舞娘 —— 并不是为了美丽。
Nobody had artificial breasts.
没有人拥有人造乳房。
The most popular women were women who were either very flirtatious — some of them were very plain.
最受欢迎的女性要么非常轻浮，要么非常朴素。
They weren’t that pretty, but they clearly loved being there.
他们并不那么漂亮，但他们显然很喜欢呆在那里。
They loved the attention.
他们喜欢受到关注。
They would look at the men, they would smile at them, and the men would feel like, “She’s a girl I could date.
她们会看着男人，会对她们微笑，男人们会觉得，“她是一个我可以约会的女孩。
She likes me.” They really enjoyed that.
她喜欢我。”他们真的很喜欢这样。
They enjoyed the fact that she enjoyed what she was doing.
他们很高兴她喜欢她所做的事情。
Then there were the beauties.
然后是美女。
There were some beautiful women who weren’t so flirtatious, but they cared about what they were doing.
有些漂亮的女人并不那么妖艳，但她们很在意自己所做的事情。
There was one girl, really beautiful, like really just a gorgeous woman.
有一个女孩，非常美丽，就像一个真正的美丽女人。
She didn’t make eye contact.
她没有眼神交流。
She didn’t flirt, but she was really obviously into creating this mystique.
她没有调情，但她显然很想创造这种神秘感。
She put a lot of effort into her show.
她为自己的节目付出了很多努力。
She used feathers and feathery boas, and she thought about her music.
她使用羽毛和羽毛围巾，并思考她的音乐。
And the men loved her because, same reason — they felt she was really into what she was doing, and she wanted to do it for them.
男人们爱她，因为同样的原因——他们觉得她真的很喜欢她所做的事情，而且她想为他们做这件事。
I learned that men could be really .
我了解到男人也可以是真的。
.
。
.
。
They weren’t just about tits and ass.
它们不仅仅是关于乳房和屁股。
They wanted to have this romantic fantasy set forth.
他们想要表达这种浪漫的幻想。
They wanted to know that the woman cared about it or that she was just in it because she was really into it and liked them.
他们想知道这位女士是否关心这件事，或者她只是因为真的很喜欢这件事并且喜欢他们而参与其中。
I didn’t know that.
我不知道。
Some of them could be really crude and gross, like at late night, if they came in drunk, they could be horrible.
他们中的一些人可能真的很粗鲁和粗俗，比如在深夜，如果他们喝醉了进来，他们可能会很可怕。
But that I already knew.
但我已经知道了。
I knew that men could be ugly and gross and really disrespectful.
我知道男人可能很丑陋、粗俗，而且非常无礼。
Those men often got thrown out, by the way.
顺便说一句，这些人经常被赶出去。
They were too much.
他们太过分了。
There was bouncers there.
那里有保镖。
But I didn’t know about the other side of it, that really romantic, longing side of masculinity.
但我不知道它的另一面，即男子气概真正浪漫、渴望的一面。
I hadn’t really known that yet.
我还不知道这一点。
On an individual basis, yes, but not on a group level.
在个人层面上是的，但在团体层面上则不然。
How have your views about sexual permissiveness changed since the 1990s?
自 20 世纪 90 年代以来，您对性宽容的看法有何变化？
Social views have changed a great deal.
社会观念发生了很大变化。
In your case?
你的情况呢？
I guess I’ve seen the downside of it, how confusing it can be.
我想我已经看到了它的缺点，它是多么令人困惑。
I actually started to see that in the ’90s.
事实上，我在 90 年代就开始看到这一点。
I didn’t see that in the ’70s and ’80s.
我在 70 年代和 80 年代没有看到这一点。
I was very into permissiveness and the more freedom the better, not that I didn’t recognize there were dangers, always.
我非常喜欢宽容，自由越多越好，但这并不是说我没有意识到存在危险，总是如此。
I began to see that in the ’90s, it was beyond physical danger, that it could be very confusing to some people, even to me.
我开始意识到，在 20 世纪 90 年代，它已经超出了人身危险的范围，它可能会让一些人感到非常困惑，甚至对我来说也是如此。
I began to see how it had been confusing to me, which it took me a while to understand.
我开始意识到这让我感到困惑，我花了一段时间才明白。
I’m also seeing now how repulsive it can be to younger people.
我现在也发现它对年轻人来说是多么令人厌恶。
There’s always a matter of balance.
总有一个平衡问题。
For my generation, it was so uptight and so rigid and so locked into tradition that it was awful.
对于我们这一代人来说，它是如此紧张、如此僵化、如此固守传统，这太糟糕了。
That’s how the extreme permissiveness happened.
极端的宽容就是这样发生的。
Then, I think there’s been a reaction to the extreme permissiveness.
然后，我认为人们对极端宽容做出了反应。
“Wait a minute, this is not okay to just be saying whatever you want and grabbing people.”
“等一下，随心所欲地抢人是不行的。”
There’s a real downside to that.
这确实有一个缺点。
The most powerful people — not even socially powerful but physically powerful — are going to take advantage of that.
最有权势的人 ——“甚至不是社会上的权力，而是身体上的权力”——将会利用这一点。
Not everybody is going to be able to deal with that.
不是每个人都能处理好这个问题。
“Wait, put the brakes on, I don’t like this.
“等等，踩刹车，我不喜欢这样。
We don’t like this.” I think that’s a natural reaction.
我们不喜欢这样。”我认为这是一种自然反应。
What did you learn working in the Strand Bookstore in New York City?
您在纽约市的斯特兰德书店工作学到了什么？
That there are a lot of different ways to be in the workplace.
工作场所有很多不同的方式。
That there was a workplace that allowed people to be themselves in a big way, to dress however they wanted, and that that can really work for some people.
有一个工作场所可以让人们在很大程度上做自己，随心所欲地着装，这对某些人来说确实有效。
And it can work for some customers.
它适用于某些客户。
Some customers like that kind of environment, where you walk in, and you might be dealing with somebody dressed in their pajamas and their hair standing out to there and weird makeup, and who’s going to say, “Go find it yourself.” COWEN: What was your job in the Strand?
有些顾客喜欢这样的环境，你走进去，你可能会遇到一个穿着睡衣、头发直立、妆容怪异的人，他会说：“你自己去找吧。” COWEN：你在斯特兰德的工作是什么？
I was a typist.
我是一名打字员。
I was in the basement typing up orders.
我在地下室输入订单。
What are your favorite parts about now living in the Hudson Valley?
现在居住在哈德逊河谷，您最喜欢的部分是什么？
Just the sheer beautifulness of it.
只是它纯粹的美丽。
It’s a beautiful place.
这是一个美丽的地方。
How long have you lived there?
你在那里住了多久？
Off and on since ’98.
自 98 年以来断断续续。
What would be your self-account of how you have kept your curiosity and intellectual vitality for so long?
您如何看待自己是如何长期保持好奇心和智力活力的？
I don’t know if I have kept it.
我不知道我是否保留了它。
It feels like it’s sagging down to my knees.
感觉就像它下垂到我的膝盖一样。
COWEN: But people who have lost it don’t feel that way, I would note.
考恩：但我要指出的是，失去它的人不会有这种感觉。
Really?
真的吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
Well, by the fact that I, up until recently — I just quit teaching, but up until recently, teaching and having to clarify my thoughts about why I think something is important or why I think a piece of writing is working or not, or writing about writing — just the writing, you have to use your mind quite a lot.
好吧，事实是，直到最近，我才刚刚放弃教学，但直到最近，教学并必须澄清我的想法，即为什么我认为某件事很重要，或者为什么我认为一篇文章有效或无效，或者写关于写作的文章，你必须大量运用你的思想。
How did you observe your students changing over the years, as groups?
您如何观察您的学生作为群体多年来的变化？
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Well, this has to be the last question because I’m really hungry.
好吧，这必须是最后一个问题，因为我真的很饿。
One final question after this.
此后还有最后一个问题。
Yes, go on.
是的，继续。
Well, they’re upset.
好吧，他们很沮丧。
They’re really, sometimes, quite aggressive.
他们有时真的很有攻击性。
They really need you to express things in a very conformist way.
他们确实需要你以一种非常墨守成规的方式表达事物。
Not all students.
不是所有学生。
Some students really are still very open-minded and questing and want to know a lot about a lot of different ways of looking at things, but some of them are very rigid now and really only want to .
有些学生确实仍然非常开放和好奇，想要了解很多看待事物的不同方式，但他们中的一些人现在非常僵化，真的只是想知道。
.
。
.
。
I handed out a piece of writing by an African American critic — very well known — named Hilton Als.
我分发了一篇非裔美国评论家的文章——“非常有名”——名叫希尔顿·阿尔斯。
He is writing about Flannery O’Connor, who he loves.
他正在写他所爱的弗兰纳里·奥康纳。
In the first page, you see the N-word.
在第一页中，您会看到 N 字。
They didn’t know that he was African American right away.
他们立即不知道他是非裔美国人。
They saw the N-word.
他们看到了N字。
One of them says, “On the first page, there’s the N-word.” I’m like, “I feel it’s no, yes, he can — ”
其中一个人说：“第一页上有一个 N 字。”我想，“我觉得不行，是的，他可以 - ”
Honestly, in fiction, personally, I don’t have a problem with anybody using that word.
老实说，就我个人而言，在小说中，我对任何人使用这个词没有意见。
My God, he ought to be able to use that word.
天哪，他应该会用这个词。
They were just so rattled by seeing it.
他们看到这一幕简直惊慌失措。
They didn’t quarrel with it eventually, as I explained, “Read the whole piece.
正如我解释的那样，他们最终没有对此争论，“阅读整篇文章。
There’s a lot of context to this.” But they’re so reactive to certain words.
这有很多背景。”但他们对某些词的反应非常强烈。
Even the word retard.
就连延迟这个词。
It appeared in the story.
它出现在故事中。
They were upset by that.
他们对此感到不安。
I’m like, “It’s just a story about kids.
我想，“这只是一个关于孩子们的故事。
They would use that word.”
他们会用这个词。”
It’s just like they want everything to be so — I don’t know what the right word — policed.
就像他们希望一切都是这样 —— 我不知道该用什么词来形容 —— 监管。
They’re so afraid of the use of certain words and terms and exploring certain mindsets that is very difficult for me.
他们非常害怕使用某些词语和术语，也害怕探索某些心态，这对我来说非常困难。
If you present it in the right way, they’re usually okay, but you have to go through so much presentation.
如果你以正确的方式呈现它，他们通常没问题，但你必须经历这么多的演示。
I don’t understand why they think that it’s going to make the world a better place.
我不明白为什么他们认为这会让世界变得更美好。
I understand the impulse.
我理解这种冲动。
I respect the impulse to want to make the world a better place and to stop insulting and attacking people who are already being insulted and attacked.
我尊重想要让世界变得更美好的冲动，并停止侮辱和攻击那些已经受到侮辱和攻击的人。
I understand where it came from.
我明白它是从哪里来的。
There used to be a lot of unchecked gross racism sometimes in schools.
过去，学校里有时存在很多不受控制的严重种族主义。
I could tell you stories about that, so I understand the impulse.
我可以告诉你相关的故事，所以我理解这种冲动。
But this really nitpicking, minute, over-policing of language — this is just a nightmare.
但这确实是一种挑剔、细致、过度监管的语言——这只是一场噩梦。
Most trans students are not like this.
大多数跨性别学生不是这样的。
Most trans students are very .
大多数跨性别学生都非常。
.
。
.
。
If you use the wrong pronoun, they’ll correct you, but they don’t really care that much.
如果你用错了代词，他们会纠正你，但他们并不太在意。
They get it; you just forgot.
他们明白了；你只是忘记了。
But one person I had recently didn’t actually clarify in her .
但我最近认识的一个人并没有真正澄清她的问题。
.
。
.
。
You get a piece of paper with their picture, how they want to be referred to in terms of pronouns, how they identify.
你会得到一张纸，上面有他们的照片、他们希望如何用代词来提及、他们如何识别。
She did not identify as a trans person.
她并不认为自己是跨性别者。
She identified as non-binary, and she did not specify what pronoun.
她认为自己是非二元的，并且没有具体说明是什么代词。
Some people who identify that way aren’t particular about it.
有些认同这种方式的人并不特别在意它。
They’re fine with how you’re responding to them, how they present.
他们对你回应他们的方式以及他们的表现方式很满意。
She presented as a female, so I called her that, and she didn’t correct me.
她以女性身份出现，所以我就这样称呼她，她没有纠正我。
In her student evaluation, she was really angry that I didn’t support her trans identity.
在她的学生评价中，她对我不支持她的跨性别身份感到非常生气。
Well, she didn’t identify that way on her .
好吧，她并没有这么认为。
.
。
.
。
That is a very strange mentality to me.
这对我来说是一种非常奇怪的心态。
Also, she could have emailed me and said, “I prefer to be called they/their.” I would have done it.
另外，她可以给我发电子邮件说：“我更喜欢被称为他们/他们的。”我会这么做的。
She said she was afraid to do that because I was just such an aggressive person.
她说她害怕这样做，因为我是一个很有攻击性的人。
I don’t understand that.
我不明白。
She didn’t even try.
她甚至没有尝试。
I don’t believe she was cringing in terror before my incredibly aggressive personality, because she would know that if she complained about that to the administration, they would have been all over me.
我不相信她在我令人难以置信的攻击性个性面前感到恐惧，因为她知道，如果她向政府抱怨这一点，他们就会对我感到不满。
That’s a mentality that I see a lot now.
我现在经常看到这种心态。
It’s not just that they want to be called a different pronoun than has been the norm for a long time.
这不仅仅是因为他们希望被称为与长期以来的常态不同的代词。
It’s that they’ll hurt.
他们会受伤。
Somebody like that person will act as if they have no power in the situation and that they’re too afraid to say anything to you, or they are unable for whatever reason.
像那个人一样的人会表现得好像他们在这种情况下没有权力，他们太害怕对你说什么，或者他们出于某种原因无法说话。
That is bewildering to me.
这让我很困惑。
I encountered that type, not just in terms of pronouns, but just generally people who don’t seem to feel they can express themselves, and then blame you for it.
我遇到过这种类型的人，不仅仅是在代词方面，而且一般来说，他们似乎觉得自己无法表达自己，然后因此责怪你。
That is very new, and that is what I find more disturbing than anything.
这是非常新的，也是我觉得最令人不安的。
Closing question: What will you do next?
结束语：接下来你会做什么？
Just continue to write.
就继续写吧。
A novel, short stories, essays?
长篇小说、短篇小说、散文？
I’m working right now on an essay and a story.
我现在正在写一篇文章和一个故事。
Great.
伟大的。
Readers that want to find out about you — they can go to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, google your name, independent booksellers, Mary Gaitskill Substack.
想要了解您的读者 — 他们可以去亚马逊、Barnes and Noble、谷歌搜索您的名字、独立书商、Mary Gaitskill Substack。
Anything else?
还要别的吗？
Actually, Substack — probably it’s more labor intensive, but that would be a quick way to get to know me.
实际上，Substack ——可能它的劳动强度更大，但这将是了解我的快速方法。
Just be reading — picking one of them and reading that.
只要阅读——选择其中一篇并阅读即可。
Mary Gaitskill, thank you very much.
玛丽·盖茨基尔，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。