Mark Miller on Food as the Ultimate Intellectual Exploration (Ep. 18)
Welcome to this installment of Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎收看本期《与泰勒对话》。
Today, the guest is Mark Miller, who is one of the most extraordinary food minds of our generation.
今天的嘉宾是马克·米勒（Mark Miller），他是我们这一代最非凡的美食头脑之一。
It’s hard to even summarize what Mark has done.
甚至很难总结马克所做的事情。
I think of Mark as the modern founder of southwestern cuisine.
我认为马克是西南美食的现代创始人。
He’s well known for having been the driving force behind opening Coyote Café, which transformed the Santa Fe dining scene.
他因开办 Coyote 咖啡馆而闻名，该咖啡馆改变了圣达菲的餐饮业。
In Washington, DC, where we are now in the Panda Gourmet restaurant, Mark is best known for Red Sage, a southwestern restaurant, that was one of DC’s best for a long time.
在华盛顿特区，也就是我们现在所在的 Panda Gourmet 餐厅，马克最出名的是西南餐厅 Red Sage，它长期以来一直是华盛顿特区最好的餐厅之一。
Mark has written numerous books on food, on salsas, on chiles.
马克写过许多关于食物、莎莎酱和辣椒的书籍。
He has the very best book on tacos.
他有关于炸玉米饼的最好的书。
If you’ve ever seen a famous poster of all those chiles, the Chile Poster — well, Mark did that.
如果你见过一张关于所有这些辣椒的著名海报，那就是智利海报 ——好吧，马克就是这么做的。
Mark’s been connected with a lot of restaurants.
马克与很多餐馆都有联系。
He originally studied anthropology at Berkeley.
他最初在伯克利学习人类学。
I think of Mark’s contribution as synthesizing anthropology, cooking, studying food through books, studying food through practice.
我认为马克的贡献是综合人类学、烹饪、通过书籍研究食物、通过实践研究食物。
He’s lived in 20 countries, traveled in over a hundred, and he understands taste, sensation, and context of food — its anthropological setting combined with all this fantastic real-world experience.
他生活过 20 个国家，游历过 100 多个国家，他了解食物的味道、感觉和背景——它的人类学背景与所有这些奇妙的现实世界体验相结合。
On top of all that, Mark has been a food consultant for more companies than I can name.
最重要的是，马克担任过的公司的食品顾问多得我都无法说出。
That’s just my very brief introduction to Mark, and it doesn’t begin to do him justice.
这只是我对马克的非常简短的介绍，并没有开始公正地对待他。
We’ll start the conversation in a moment.
我们稍后将开始对话。
We also have with us Megan McArdle of Bloomberg View.
与我们同行的还有彭博社观点的梅根·麦卡德尔 (Megan McArdle)。
Megan is a long-standing friend of mine.
梅根是我的老朋友。
In addition to her writing on politics and economics, Megan was, arguably, the very first economics blogger.
除了政治和经济方面的著作之外，梅根可以说是第一位经济学博主。
She is deeply involved in the food world.
她深深涉足美食界。
Megan each year writes the single best guide to kitchen equipment — what is new out each year.
梅根每年都会撰写一份关于厨房设备的最佳指南 ——每年都会推出什么新产品。
We’ll start by chatting with Mark.
我们将从与马克聊天开始。
Then Megan will come in with some questions.
然后梅根会进来提出一些问题。
On the best Asian cities for food
亚洲最佳美食城市
So, food worlds.
所以，美食世界。
I’m very interested in how you think about food worlds and this contrast between the food worlds of China, Japan, Tokyo, and South Korea.
我对您如何看待食品世界以及中国、日本、东京和韩国食品世界之间的对比非常感兴趣。
You told me you thought Seoul had the most interesting and creative food world of those three.
你告诉我你认为首尔的美食世界是这三个国家中最有趣、最有创意的。
Tell us why you think that.
告诉我们你为什么这么想。
I’ve been traveling to all three countries for approximately 40 years or more, so I’ve really seen them transform themselves.
我已经去过这三个国家大约 40 年或更长时间了，所以我确实看到了他们的转变。
I’ve also seen how they adapt and how they acculturate other international influences.
我还看到了他们如何适应以及如何适应其他国际影响。
I’ve been going to Japan since I was a student at Berkeley — 1969 was my first trip.
我从伯克利大学学生时代起就一直去日本——1969 年是我第一次旅行。
I’ve been going to China since the ’70s.
我从 70 年代起就去过中国。
Seoul is the one that I know the least, but I’ve been following it for about 15 years.
首尔是我了解最少的一个，但我已经关注它大约15年了。
Recently, in May, I went to the big Seoul Food show where I actually ate a hundred food products that I had never had before, which was interesting.
最近，五月，我去了首尔大型食品展，在那里我实际上吃了一百种我以前从未吃过的食品，这很有趣。
The other thing that happened was I realized that Seoul had moved in terms of its transformation of plasticity and creativity.
发生的另一件事是我意识到首尔在可塑性和创造力的转变方面已经发生了变化。
There’s a restaurant called Mingles that every single dish was incorporating Korean ingredients, but in a very creative, modern way.
有一家名为 Mingles 的餐厅，每道菜都融入了韩国食材，但以一种非常有创意、现代的方式。
They were not afraid to move their food outside of the traditional vortex of what was seen as Korean food, and they were using Korean ingredients in a new way that was authenticating a cuisine.
他们并不害怕将食物移出韩国食物的传统漩涡，并且他们以一种新的方式使用韩国食材来验证菜肴的正宗性。
They were doing pizza, they were doing coffee.
他们在做披萨，他们在做咖啡。
They were doing very good pizza, that’s almost as good as you’d find, for instance, in Italy.
他们做的披萨非常好，几乎和你在意大利找到的一样好。
In Japan, when you go to eat pizza, whether it’s Neapolitan, either in Tokyo or Kyoto, you find that they get to a certain level of the form of it, but the flavor and the gestalt and the aesthetic — they can’t quite get at it.
在日本，当你去吃披萨时，无论是那不勒斯的，还是在东京还是京都，你会发现他们在形式上达到了一定的水平，但味道、格式塔和审美——他们还不能完全理解。
They remain Japanese.
他们仍然是日本人。
The homogeneity of Japanese culture is its strength; it’s also its weakness.
日本文化的同质性是它的优势；这也是它的弱点。
In China — I’ve been going there for work and I’ve seen some data from one of the big companies that has 7,000 restaurants — we’re seeing that they’re using the Western restaurants in order to create a sense modernity and identity.
在中国 ——我一直去那里工作，我看到了一家拥有7,000家餐厅的大公司的一些数据 ——我们看到他们正在利用西餐厅来创造一种现代感和认同感。
Whether they’ll really use it for their own personal things — right now there is no other alternative.
他们是否真的会用它来处理自己的个人事务 —— 现在没有其他选择。
That social space that’s open from children, through going out, through celebrations and weddings, the Western brands are the markers for special .
从儿童开始，到外出，到庆祝活动和婚礼，西方品牌都是特殊的标志。
Korea, though: I was surprised that first of all they’ve moved so quickly.
不过韩国：首先我很惊讶他们行动如此之快。
The last time I was there was four and a half years ago.
我上次去那里已经是四年半前了。
I would have thought to get to this level would’ve taken them 20 years.
我原以为他们要花 20 年才能达到这个水平。
Plus the level of Italian, coffee, pizza, modern Korean, French was all exactly where we would be in the United States.
再加上意大利菜、咖啡、披萨、现代韩国菜、法国菜的水平都和我们在美国的水平一模一样。
We’ll get to Japan and China, but more on Korea.
我们将讨论日本和中国，但更多地讨论韩国。
The alley food in Seoul and the rest of Korea seems so good to me.
首尔和韩国其他地方的巷子小吃对我来说似乎很好吃。
If I walk down a back alley, there will be 20 different places I want to eat.
如果我沿着后巷走，就会有 20 个不同的地方我想吃饭。
Most of them will be outstanding.
他们中的大多数都会表现出色。
It might, for instance, be some of the best fried chicken in the world.
例如，它可能是世界上最好的炸鸡之一。
I would agree.
我同意。
What’s the structure of the food world in Seoul, and other parts of South Korea, that have given rise to that?
首尔和韩国其他地区的食品世界结构是怎样的？
I think that what has happened .
我想，已经发生了什么事。
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it’s like Samsung versus Sony.
这就像三星与索尼。
If you actually look at those technological giants, which one has been able to maintain and innovate?
如果你真正看看那些科技巨头，有哪一个能够保持和创新呢？
For some reason, Sony lost its way.
由于某种原因，索尼迷失了方向。
We remember when Sony was the innovative capital, the innovative center of electronics.
我们还记得索尼当时是创新之都、电子创新中心。
Yet today it’s Samsung — I mean not given the last one that came out!
然而今天是三星 —— 我的意思是还没有考虑到最后一款产品的问世！
But, basically, I think the Koreans are forced out of their comfort zone, because they have North Korea at their border.
但基本上，我认为韩国人被迫离开他们的舒适区，因为朝鲜就在他们的边境。
They have China to compete with, being aggressive, and they have the finesse of Japan.
他们有中国的竞争优势，有侵略性，也有日本的技巧。
Their context of competition, just in their own backyard, is such that it makes them that they can’t be in the — Japan is staying alone.
他们的竞争环境，就在他们自己的后院，这使得他们不能在“日本独处”。
It’s in its own comfort zone; it’s going to stay there.
它处于自己的舒适区；它会留在那里。
China wants to move and be global, but it’s a big stretch.
中国想要走向全球，但这是一个很大的挑战。
You think Japan, in a way, has painted itself into a corner of perfection?
您认为日本在某种程度上已经把自己描绘成一个完美的角落吗？
You can have very, very good French food in Tokyo — arguably better than Paris — but it won’t ever be getting any better.
你可以在东京吃到非常非常好的法国菜——可以说比巴黎更好——但它永远不会变得更好。
It would be the same French food that I would have eaten in Paris in 1980.
这将是我 1980 年在巴黎吃过的法式食物。
You can have a quite good Mexican mole in Tokyo, I found, or Singapore laksa, you can have in Tokyo.
我发现，在东京你可以吃到相当不错的墨西哥鼹鼠，或者在东京也可以吃到新加坡叻沙。
The person who makes it might have studied in Singapore for five or six years.
制作它的人可能在新加坡学习了五六年。
He’ll come back with a perfected recipe, but there’s no other connection to that food world.
他会带着完美的食谱回来，但与那个美食世界没有其他联系。
In Mexico, if we look at, for instance, part of Mexican food, like Enrique at Cosme in New York, is embracing modern Mexican, and yet doesn’t want to learn ancient, traditional Mexican.
例如，在墨西哥，如果我们看一下墨西哥食物的一部分，比如纽约 Cosme 的恩里克 (Enrique)，正在拥抱现代墨西哥菜，但不想学习古老的传统墨西哥菜。
Yet it’s moving beyond its roots, and it’s becoming Mexican, whereas Mexico, before, was trapped in looking at Spain, looking at the US, looking at other identity systems, to validate its own food supply.
然而，它正在超越它的根源，它正在变得墨西哥，而墨西哥以前却陷入了寻找西班牙、美国、其他身份系统的困境，以验证自己的粮食供应。
I can give you a good example — mezcal.
我可以给你举一个很好的例子 —— 梅斯卡尔。
My good friend Ron Cooper started Del Maguey.
我的好朋友罗恩·库珀创办了德尔·马奎。
That’s a company — 20 years ago, Mexicans would not drink mezcal because it was associated with peasant Mexicans.
那是一家公司——20年前，墨西哥人不会喝梅斯卡尔酒，因为它与墨西哥农民有关。
Yes.
是的。
Today, when you go to Mexico City, the only thing they drink is mezcal, because people want to be Mexican.
今天，当你去墨西哥城时，他们唯一喝的是梅斯卡尔酒，因为人们想成为墨西哥人。
COWEN: It’s trendy even in Washington, DC .
COWEN：即使在华盛顿特区，它也很流行。
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And soju in Korea.
还有韩国的烧酒。
The problem was Korea was always in Japan’s shadow, and they were basically beaten down and defensive.
问题是韩国始终处于日本的阴影之下，基本上都是被打垮、处于防守状态。
I think right now, they’re not.
我认为现在，他们不是。
COWEN: We just had a dialogue with Fuchsia Dunlop, who’s written on Chinese cooking.
COWEN：我们刚刚与 Fuchsia Dunlop 进行了对话，她撰写了有关中国烹饪的文章。
The food world in China, now, how do you see it?
现在中国的美食界，你怎么看？
Is it getting better, getting worse?
是变得更好还是变得更糟？
Is it headed to become large corporations, as in America, making a lot of soulless food, or is it still on the way up?
它是否会像美国那样成为大公司，生产大量毫无灵魂的食品，还是仍在不断上升？
That’s a difficult question, because restaurants that I know, and Fuchsia knows — like Jesse, which is an old restaurant in Shanghai — I was there recently, and I’ve been going to that same restaurant for 20 years, from when it had four tables, by one family.
这是一个很难回答的问题，因为我知道的餐馆，Fuchsia 都知道的 ——比如 Jesse，这是上海的一家老餐馆—— 我最近去过那家餐馆，从一家人有四张桌子开始，我已经去那家餐馆 20 年了。
Now they have a multiple, but still — what Fuchsia talked about , though, is going to stop them.
现在他们有了倍数，但仍然 ——紫红色所说的，虽然，会阻止他们。
It’s the level of status of someone joining a cooking profession.
这是加入烹饪行业的人的地位水平。
Din Tai Fung: the dumplings have gone down.
鼎泰丰：饺子下去了。
What’s happening now is, even though they have this great tradition of cooking, the workforce is either coming straight from the countryside without being trained — the restaurants are making a lot of money because the people who are going there don’t have trained palates, and so they just open up and be better.
现在的情况是，尽管他们有这种伟大的烹饪传统，但劳动力要么是直接从农村来的，没有经过培训————餐馆赚了很多钱，因为去那里的人没有受过训练的味觉，所以他们只是开放并做得更好。
Traditional restaurant: that takes a lot of training, and to go into that, they’re not going to find the workforce.
传统餐厅：这需要大量培训，而且他们找不到劳动力。
I think that they’re going through a period right now of, probably, I would call, mediocrity.
我认为他们现在正在经历一个我称之为平庸的时期。
Doesn’t the low status of cooking in China, in some ways, protect them?
难道烹饪在中国的低地位在某种程度上没有保护他们吗？
It keeps pretensions out of the food world.
它使食品界不再有虚荣心。
It means people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds can become cooks.
这意味着社会经济背景较低的人可以成为厨师。
You can have a grandmother or a grandfather being a cook.
您可以让祖母或祖父担任厨师。
You can walk along in Shanghai and find a place where they make dumplings, and they simply roll them.
你可以在上海走走，找到一个包饺子的地方，他们只是简单地包饺子。
No one there thinks of what they’re doing as an art, but that ultimately enables free entry, and gives people a bit of the freedom that they don’t have in Tokyo.
那里没有人认为他们所做的事情是一门艺术，但这最终使人们可以自由进入，并给人们带来一些在东京所没有的自由。
Thus, I would say, you should be more optimistic about food in China.
所以我想说，你应该对中国的食品更加乐观。
Except that the dumplings that I used to see on the streets — I’ve been going to Shanghai since the late ’70s.
除了我以前在街上看到的饺子 —— 我从70年代末就开始去上海了。
They were all over the place.
他们到处都是。
Now they’re very hard to find.
现在他们很难找到了。
The Chinese government is afraid of .
中国政府害怕了。
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basically, health reasons; is now controlling where food is basically exhibited, where food can be bought and sold.
基本上，健康原因；现在主要控制食品展示的地方、可以买卖食品的地方。
A lot of the shops have moved into some of the department stores, for instance, and are there.
例如，许多商店已经搬进了一些百货商店，并且在那里。
There used to be one amazing bao made out of smoked tofu and bitter greens and mustard.
曾经有一种神奇的包子，是用熏豆腐、苦菜和芥末做成的。
I would just wait for my next trip to Shanghai.
我只想等待下一次去上海。
For 15 years I would go to the same place; it was in the French quarter, same corner, and they had the best bao.
15年来我都会去同一个地方；这是在法国区的同一个角落，他们有最好的包。
It’s gone, and I looked all over, and I can’t even find that bao.
没了，我找遍了，连那个包都找不到。
I can’t find a noodle, where I used to put out my hand with coins and people would say .
我找不到面条，以前我把手里拿着硬币，人们会说。
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They didn’t have money then.
那时他们没有钱。
I used to go to the wet markets and just look at what other people were eating.
我过去常常去菜市场，看看别人在吃什么。
The last time I could do that was maybe 15 years ago.
上一次我能做到这一点大概是 15 年前的事了。
I haven’t seen a noodle, a hundred noodle stands.
一个面都没见过，一百个面摊。
In Mexico you can still see .
在墨西哥你仍然可以看到。
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But even there, street food is being pushed out of Mexico City somewhat.
但即便如此，街头小吃也在某种程度上被挤出了墨西哥城。
You go to a bus station in Monterrey: you can see a hundred of the best tacos in the world.
你去蒙特雷的一个公交车站：你可以看到一百个世界上最好的玉米饼。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And we will get to that, but let’s —
我们会做到这一点，但是让我们——
Anyway —
无论如何——
Asia for now still.
目前仍然是亚洲。
Let’s say someone comes to you.
假设有人来找你。
“Mark Miller, you’ve been to over a hundred countries, eaten in them for decades.” They say, “I have two weeks to do a food tour in Asia; you should pick for me three cities.” What are your selections?
“马克·米勒，你去过一百多个国家，几十年来都在这些国家吃过饭。”他们说，“我有两周的时间在亚洲进行美食之旅；你应该为我挑选三个城市。”你的选择是什么？
I would pick Seoul for sure.
我肯定会选择首尔。
OK, Seoul.
好的，首尔。
That we’ve covered.
我们已经介绍过了。
Seoul for sure.
肯定是首尔。
I would pick Bangkok, and a toss-up between .
我会选择曼谷，然后在两者之间进行权衡。
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I would pick Tokyo.
我会选择东京。
You would pick Tokyo.
你会选择东京。
Yeah.
是的。
So Bangkok.
所以曼谷。
Say someone’s in Bangkok.
假设某人在曼谷。
They don’t speak Thai; they’re puzzled; they don’t know what they’re doing.
他们不会说泰语；他们很困惑；他们不知道自己在做什么。
They don’t have a Thai friend.
他们没有泰国朋友。
Conceptually, how should they think about finding the best food in Bangkok?
从概念上讲，他们应该如何考虑在曼谷寻找最好的食物？
Go to the night markets.
去夜市。
The food on the street is just amazing; it’s probably the best in the world on the street, and it has the most variety.
街上的食物真是太棒了；它可能是街上世界上最好的，而且种类最多。
It’s the freshest.
这是最新鲜的。
The Thai people also are very clean.
泰国人也很爱干净。
I’ve never been sick once; I’ve been eating food on the street forever.
我从来没有生过一次病；我一直在街上吃东西。
Chatuchak, the largest market in the world, has 15,000 booths.
乍都乍市场是全球最大的市场，拥有 15,000 个摊位。
Probably you can just spend four hours and eat a hundred dishes.
大概四个小时就能吃一百道菜。
My record in Bangkok one day is 14 restaurants and 75 dishes.
我在曼谷一天的记录是 14 家餐厅和 75 道菜。
And I actually ate them all, not tasted them.
我实际上把它们全部吃了，但没有尝过。
And probably spent less than we’d spend in Washington in one night.
而且可能比我们在华盛顿一晚花的钱还少。
Get a hotel in that part of Bangkok, and just go eat there.
在曼谷那个地方找个酒店，然后去那里吃饭。
Yeah.
是的。
There are some good books.
有一些好书。
There’s a street-hawker guide; there’s some good bloggers who are out there, but I would not be afraid.
有一个街头小贩指南；那里有一些优秀的博主，但我不会害怕。
The thing is, always with street food, is always go .
问题是，总是有街头小吃，总是要去的。
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The night food is the night food; the day food is the day food.
夜食就是夜食；日粮就是日粮。
Even some of that has moved into malls where the Thai people go.
甚至其中一些已经进入了泰国人常去的购物中心。
They’ll do a som tum, for 50 cents or a dollar and a half, and you might see a thousand people.
他们会做一笔 som tum，50 美分或 1 美元半，你可能会看到 1000 人。
If a thousand Thai people are eating there, it’s safe to eat there.
如果有一千名泰国人在那里吃饭，那么在那里吃饭是安全的。
COWEN: I have a bias against malls, when it comes to Southeast Asian food.
COWEN：说到东南亚食品，我对购物中心有偏见。
I tend to think malls are worse than street food.
我倾向于认为商场比街头食品更糟糕。
No, but in Kuala Lumpur, they went through the entire country and they picked the best street food and put it into the mall, so that people could experience the best of the entire country in one place.
不，但是在吉隆坡，他们走遍了整个国家，挑选了最好的街头小吃，放到商场里，让人们在一处就能体验到整个国家最好的一面。
That’s the reason that people go to the hotel.
这就是人们去酒店的原因。
Also, when you go in Singapore, the Hyatt — they have 27 chefs, each from different parts of Singapore, running each station within that one dining room.
另外，当你去新加坡时，凯悦酒店有 27 名厨师，每个人都来自新加坡的不同地区，负责管理一间餐厅内的每一站。
Malaysia or Singapore: which has better food?
马来西亚和新加坡：哪个有更好的食物？
Well, they’re very close.
嗯，他们非常接近。
I would say .
我会说。
.
。
.
。
Penang is really interesting.
槟城真的很有趣。
I would say right now, though, Singapore, like Korea, is finally getting out of its straightjacket.
不过，我现在想说的是，新加坡和韩国一样，终于摆脱了束缚。
I think that there’s some really modern, young Korean chefs that are incorporating Southeast Asian —
我认为有一些非常现代、年轻的韩国厨师正在融入东南亚风味——
Singaporean chefs, you mean.
你是说新加坡厨师。
Singaporean chefs, that are .
新加坡厨师，就是。
.
。
.
。
they know Chinese food; they have access to the best ingredients.
他们了解中国菜；他们可以获得最好的原料。
They know Western food, and they have their own tradition, from Malaysian to the original, help me there, the Straits cuisine, the .
他们了解西餐，他们有自己的传统，从马来西亚菜到原汁原味的，帮助我，海峡菜，.
.
。
.
。
The Peranakan.
土生华人。
Peranakan cuisine, which is, I think .
我认为土生华人美食。
.
。
.
。
I always think that those cuisines that are older, if they have great weavings, they have great cuisine.
我一直认为，那些古老的菜肴，如果它们有出色的编织，那么它们就有很棒的菜肴。
Because I always say you’re looking at one mentality.
因为我总是说你关注的是一种心态。
If they had a rich aesthetic tradition, I know that they had really interesting food.
如果他们有丰富的审美传统，我就知道他们有非常有趣的食物。
COWEN: Take Indonesia; they have great weavings in Indonesia.
COWEN：以印度尼西亚为例；他们在印度尼西亚有很棒的编织品。
Yes, I lived in Ubud in 1970.
是的，1970 年我住在乌布。
But I’m often disappointed by street food in Indonesia; it seems just the quality standard — it’s a bit like the Philippines, though not as bad.
但我常常对印度尼西亚的街头小吃感到失望；看起来只是质量标准——有点像菲律宾，但没那么糟糕。
Yeah, but the great dishes, like Balinese duck, that has 28 ingredients in it — it’s amazing.
是的，但是很棒的菜肴，比如巴厘岛鸭，里面有 28 种食材 —— 太棒了。
It’s amazing dishes.
真是令人惊叹的菜肴。
Those temple foods, those festival foods.
那些寺庙食品，那些节日食品。
I remember three days at the feast of the temple — the feast of the Coconut Goddess — there were 127 dishes made in those three days.
我记得三天的庙会——椰娘节——三天做了一百二十七道菜。
But the variety and richness, and we come back here in the United States, and you have a hamburger and a hot dog.
但是种类丰富，我们回到美国，你可以吃到汉堡和热狗。
On chiles
关于辣椒
Let me ask you some questions about chiles: the area where you’ve probably had the greatest impact of all food areas.
让我问你一些关于辣椒的问题：在所有食品领域中，你可能对辣椒产生了最大的影响。
Here I have some mulato chiles.
这里我有一些黑白混血辣椒。
If you look at a lot of food recipes, if you make a Mexican mole, you will use more mulatos than any other kind of chile.
如果你看了很多食物食谱，如果你做墨西哥鼹鼠，你会比任何其他种类的智利使用更多的穆拉托。
Not always, but quite typically.
并非总是如此，但非常典型。
Say in the Rick Bayless recipe.
在里克·贝勒斯的食谱中说。
Now why is that?
这是为什么呢？
What is it about this chile?
这个智利到底是怎么回事？
Well, first of all —
嗯，首先——
Do what you want with it; we can buy another.
用它做你想做的事；我们可以再买一个。
First of all you have to open them up, because 90 percent of all chiles are mislabeled.
首先你必须打开它们，因为 90% 的辣椒都贴错了标签。
Yes.
是的。
That’s one of the problems.
这是问题之一。
Whatever it says on the package may not be true.
包装上写的任何内容都可能不真实。
The point is that mulatos, when you hold them up to the light, like this, see it’s more purple and more reddish .
重点是，黑白混血儿，当你把它们举到灯光下时，像这样，会看到它更紫、更红。
.
。
.
。
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
More cordovan.
更多马臀皮。
That is not a mulato.
那不是混血儿。
They defrauded me.
他们欺骗了我。
Yeah, that’s an ancho.
是的，那是一个锚。
Because a mulato will be more coffee-ish and more dark-tone.
因为混血儿的肤色会更偏咖啡色，色调也更暗。
What a mulato will do is actually have those flavonoids that are coffee and chocolate.
黑白混血儿实际上会含有咖啡和巧克力等黄酮类化合物。
Those in a mole are the undertones of the wide sort of structure or the wide foundation of those flavors that we really like.
摩尔中的那些是我们真正喜欢的广泛结构或广泛基础口味的底色。
Now the fruit tones, or the capsaicin, or the spicy tones, you basically accessorize.
现在，水果色调、辣椒素或辛辣色调，基本上都是你的配饰。
The ancho is always the workhorse, because it carries the most fruit.
凤尾鱼始终是主力，因为它结出的果实最多。
The mulato carries the coffee and chocolate, which is those more-or-less fermented umami — more complex sort of flavonoids.
混血儿携带咖啡和巧克力，这些或多或少是发酵的鲜味——更复杂的黄酮类化合物。
Then we throw in some guajillos, arbols to brighten it all up and get it going.
然后我们加入一些 guajillos、arbols 来照亮一切并开始工作。
If I make a Mexican mole with these fraudulent mulato chiles —
如果我用这些欺诈性的混血儿辣椒做墨西哥鼹鼠——
What exactly will go wrong?
到底会出什么问题呢？
You’re a supertaster; you can tell the difference.
你是一个味觉超人；你可以看出区别。
What will be missing?
会缺少什么？
Well the thing is, is that .
好吧，事情是这样的。
.
。
.
。
I’m going to taste this for a second.
我要尝尝这个。
Do as you wish.
随你所愿吧。
We can all taste it together.
大家可以一起来尝尝。
First of all, whenever you taste the chile, this is a vein here.
首先，每当你尝到智利的味道时，这就是这里的脉络。
You want to stay away from the veins always.
你要始终远离静脉。
They contain 60 percent of the capsaicin.
它们含有 60% 的辣椒素。
You always stay away from the veins, even if you can’t see them.
即使您看不到静脉，您也始终远离静脉。
The other thing is, this is old.
另一件事是，这已经很旧了。
This is what’s called a grade C chile.
这就是所谓的 C 级智利。
It’s small, and it’s dried, and it’s last year’s crop.
它很小，而且已经干了，而且是去年的庄稼。
They lose their perfume.
他们失去了香水。
They’re like flowers.
它们就像花朵一样。
What you end up is, you end up with the capsaicin.
你最终得到的是辣椒素。
This is a little bit bitter; did you notice?
这有点苦涩；你注意到了吗？
Correct.
正确的。
Like bitter tea.
就像苦茶一样。
A little bit like lapsang souchong; there’s a little bit of that smoky, woody, mushroomy flavor.
有点像正山小种；有一点烟熏、木香、蘑菇的味道。
Where’s my coffee and chocolate?
我的咖啡和巧克力在哪里？
Where is it?
它在哪里？
It’s not here.
它不在这里。
It’s been taken from you.
它已被从你手中夺走。
If you use this in your recipe you’ll say it didn’t come out well.
如果你在你的食谱中使用这个，你会说它效果不好。
You know what you didn’t do?
你知道你没有做什么吗？
You didn’t taste your ingredients.
你没有尝过你的配料。
You’re not going to get that wonderful, warm flavor that mulato is supposed to have.
你不会得到黑白混血儿应有的美妙、温暖的味道。
If I want a real mulato chile, how do I actually get one?
如果我想要一杯真正的混血儿智利，我怎样才能买到呢？
Given that 90 percent of it according to you is fraud, or at least misleading or someone made a mistake?
鉴于您认为其中 90% 是欺诈，或者至少是误导或有人犯了错误？
You need to recognize when .
你需要认识到什么时候。
.
。
.
。
OK, the other thing: when you buy chiles, the thickness of the flesh is the most important thing.
好吧，另一件事：当你购买辣椒时，果肉的厚度是最重要的。
All fruits: where do the tannins come from?
所有水果：单宁从哪里来？
Skins, seeds, and stems.
皮、种子和茎。
The thicker the flesh, the least percentage of tannin.
果肉越厚，单宁的比例就越少。
That’s what Mexicans do.
这就是墨西哥人所做的。
They look for the most pliable, they look how thick it is, and when you hold it up to the light, they can tell how ripe it was before it was dried, how much fruit flavor is going to be there.
他们寻找最柔韧的，他们看它有多厚，当你把它拿到光线下时，他们可以判断出它在干燥之前有多成熟，会有多少水果味。
Those are the big primeros.
这些是大底漆。
So when you’re using a mole, you’re really reincorporating fresh-fruit complex tones into it.
因此，当您使用摩尔时，您实际上是在将新鲜水果的复杂色调重新融入其中。
The last thing they’re looking for is heat.
他们最不想要的就是热量。
That’s the last thing they’re looking for.
这是他们要寻找的最后一件事。
Two other chiles.
另外两个辣椒。
Here —
这里——
Also, notice it’s still bitter on the palate.
另外，请注意它的口感仍然很苦。
Yes.
是的。
It tastes a little bit like the fruit leather; it’s kind of stale.
味道有点像果皮；有点陈旧了。
This one claims to be an ancho, but we’re happy to hear your revisionist take on it.
这个人自称是锚，但我们很高兴听到你的修正主义看法。
This is bigger, for one, and it’s a little bit darker.
首先，它更大，而且有点暗。
It’s got that really dark, dark, dark, almost black, blackish-brown look.
它的外观非常暗、暗、暗、几乎是黑色、黑棕色。
You need to hold them up to the light, because that tells you.
你需要将它们举到光线下，因为这会告诉你。
That’s red, like an ancho.
那是红色的，就像凤尾鱼一样。
It’s pretty even inside; there’s no mold.
里面非常均匀；没有模具。
If you get one moldy chile out of 40, that’ll ruin the mole.
如果 40 个智利中有一个发霉了，那鼹鼠就会毁掉。
A lot of people don’t look for them.
很多人不寻找他们。
When you rehydrate them you taste the mold.
当你给它们补水时，你会尝到霉菌的味道。
This one, the leather again, it should taste like a fruit leather.
这个，又是皮革，味道应该像水果皮革。
Don’t think chiles.
别以为辣椒。
What we were talking about with Fuchsia, the paradigm — what you have in your head when you go after the taste is what you will taste.
我们谈论紫红色的范式 ——当你追求味道时，你脑子里的东西就是你会尝到的东西。
If you think chiles and go for heat — you need to think fruit leather.
如果您想到辣椒并追求热量 - 您需要考虑水果皮革。
Which fruit do you get?
你得到哪种水果？
Tell me the fruits you get.
告诉我你得到的水果。
Not whether it’s spicy or not; which fruits?
不在于辣不辣；不在于辣不辣。哪些水果？
MEGAN McARDLE: It’s interesting.
梅根·麦卡德尔：这很有趣。
Is it cherry, apple, blackberry, blueberry?
是樱桃、苹果、黑莓、蓝莓吗？
McARDLE: Maybe apple, maybe cherry.
麦卡德尔：也许是苹果，也许是樱桃。
Not blueberry, not blackberry.
不是蓝莓，不是黑莓。
No .
不 。
.
。
.
。
it’s definitely like cherry.
它绝对像樱桃。
It’s actually black cherry, or sour cherry, and it has little bits of woodsiness.
它实际上是黑樱桃或酸樱桃，并且有一点木质味。
There is this blackberry-currant cassis, almost, like the French cassis flavor, at the bottom.
底部有这种黑莓醋栗黑醋栗，几乎像法国黑醋栗的味道。
The point is, when you work with ingredients, I don’t care if it’s chile, coriander — I have four different corianders, from Indian to this, with cumins.
关键是，当你处理原料时，我不在乎它是不是智利、香菜 —— 我有四种不同的香菜，从印度香菜到这个，都带有小茴香。
When you cook an ethnic food, a poor chef, what they’re doing is they’re controlling their palate.
当你烹饪民族美食时，一个糟糕的厨师，他们所做的就是控制自己的味觉。
It may look like those ingredients are not important; they’re not expensive, but they’re very, very important.
这些成分可能看起来并不重要，但它们却是最重要的。它们并不昂贵，但非常非常重要。
This is not a bad ancho; I would say B-plus.
这不是一个坏锚。我会说B+。
Here’s supposedly a pasilla.
据说这是一个帕西拉。
Tell us the difference, and if that’s even what it is.
请告诉我们其中的区别，以及是否确实如此。
It should be longer, for one thing.
一方面，它应该更长。
And it should really get those black currant, black fruits, blackberry, when you .
当你……的时候，它真的应该得到那些黑醋栗、黑色水果、黑莓。
.
。
.
。
again, think black fruits.
再次，想想黑色水果。
Is this just an ancho?
这只是一个锚吗？
Have I brought you three packages of anchos, actually?
我真的给你带了三包凤尾鱼吗？
Maybe.
或许。
Yeah, that’s what it is.
是的，就是这样。
It seems that’s what .
看来就是这样了。
.
。
.
。
it’s ancho everywhere.
到处都是锚。
A little thicker.
厚一点。
They are really wide, then.
那么它们真的很宽。
A little bit.
一点点。
The second one was the best one.
第二个是最好的一个。
The second one was the best one?
第二张是最好的一张吗？
Most fruit tones, freshest, and less tannic.
大部分果味，最新鲜，单宁较少。
What you don’t want, like a bitter wine — you don’t want tannins.
你不想要的东西，比如苦酒 ——你不需要单宁。
What’s your economic theory of why these different chiles get mixed up, and they’re all anchos but they come out under different names?
你的经济理论是什么来解释为什么这些不同的辣椒会混合在一起，而且它们都是凤尾鱼，但它们以不同的名字出现？
Notice the amount of licorice, though — the amount of black licorice.
注意甘草的量，尽管 ——黑甘草的量。
The reason is that the wholesalers basically .
原因基本上是批发商。
.
。
.
。
part of it is they’re run, a lot of times, by non-Mexicans.
部分原因是它们很多时候是由非墨西哥人经营的。
Even if they’re run by Mexicans, they only know the chiles that they grow up in their region.
即使他们是由墨西哥人经营的，他们也只知道他们在自己地区种植的辣椒。
I’m teaching in a seminar in Mexico City at the end of the month, and I can literally take out chiles and hand them to Mexicans that don’t know what they are — they’re from another area of Mexico.
月底我将在墨西哥城的一个研讨会上授课，我可以直接拿出辣椒并将它们交给那些不知道它们是什么的墨西哥人——他们来自墨西哥的另一个地区。
If I ask them to hold up the chile and taste it, and tell me the flavors, Mexicans can’t do that, because it’s not the way they approach them.
如果我让他们举起辣椒尝一尝，然后告诉我味道，墨西哥人做不到，因为这不是他们对待他们的方式。
I mean, the older women do, but the young chefs don’t.
我的意思是，年长的女性会这样做，但年轻的厨师不会。
It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
How many different kinds of chiles do you know?
你知道多少种不同的辣椒？
I once had a collection of about 250 in my garage, but some of them are the same, like arbols.
我的车库里曾经收藏过大约 250 个，但其中一些是相同的，比如 arbols。
Interesting story: I was traveling around Bhutan, and I was going from town to town, and I had the Chile Book, this book, with me.
有趣的故事：我在不丹各地旅行，从一个城镇到另一个城镇，我随身带着《智利书》，这本书。
There’s this myth in Bhutan that chiles come from Bhutan.
在不丹有一个神话，认为辣椒来自不丹。
The Chile Book: there it is.
智利书：就在那里。
I would show them that they’re not from Bhutan, and what they are, and they started tasting them.
我会向他们展示它们不是来自不丹，以及它们是什么，然后他们开始品尝它们。
Then the next village I would go in, everybody was waiting for me, all the kids and the chefs.
然后我要去的下一个村庄，每个人都在等我，所有的孩子和厨师。
They would say, “Can I see the Chile Book?
他们会说：“我可以看一下智利书吗？
Are there really chiles outside of Bhutan; are there chiles in the rest of the world?
不丹以外真的有辣椒吗？世界其他地方有辣椒吗？
Can you tell us about chiles?”
你能给我们介绍一下辣椒吗？”
Every town I went to, it was the same thing.
我去过的每个城镇都是一样的。
Here a whole culture grows up with this history that they actually have had chiles.
在这里，整个文化随着他们实际上拥有辣椒的历史而成长。
Of course, the Portuguese brought them into Thailand, and then they migrated through the trade routes into Bhutan, and that’s how they got there.
当然，葡萄牙人把他们带到了泰国，然后他们通过贸易路线迁移到了不丹，这就是他们到达那里的方式。
They’re only the cayenne varieties.
它们只是辣椒品种。
They’re only the arbols and so forth.
它们只是乔木等等。
They don’t have any of these chiles.
他们没有这些辣椒。
Even if you grow these chiles, for instance let’s say you grow these chiles in Washington, DC: It won’t have the right flavor, because it won’t have the right ultraviolet; which has to be grown in the mountains above 4,000, 5,000 feet, and it doesn’t have an alkaline, volcanic soil.
即使你种植这些辣椒，例如，假设你在华盛顿特区种植这些辣椒：它不会有合适的味道，因为它没有合适的紫外线；它必须生长在海拔4,000、5,000英尺以上的山区，并且没有碱性火山土壤。
The central Valley of Mexico makes the best anchos and pasillas in the world.
墨西哥中部山谷出产世界上最好的凤尾鱼和凤尾鱼。
When you go to the market, San Luis — that one village in that one place makes the best particular.
当你去圣路易斯市场时——那个地方的一个村庄最特别。
In what state is that?
那是什么状态？
In the state of México.
在墨西哥州。
The state of México?
墨西哥州？
It’s amazing that they know their chiles.
令人惊奇的是他们了解自己的辣椒。
There’s a debate in Mexico right now — you probably know about this — that China is exporting cheaper chiles to Mexico.
现在墨西哥有一场争论 ——“你可能知道这一点”—— 中国正在向墨西哥出口更便宜的辣椒。
They are.
他们是。
But some of the Mexicans don’t like this.
但一些墨西哥人不喜欢这样。
How will that play itself out?
这将如何发挥作用？
What’s going to happen?
会发生什么？
They don’t know the flavor profile.
他们不知道风味特征。
Part of it is, they basically are undercutting the market.
部分原因是，他们基本上正在削弱市场。
You see them in Oaxaca; they’re anchos there, I can tell.
你在瓦哈卡州就能看到他们；我看得出来，他们是那里的锚。
They’re very bitter, very alkaline-ish; they don’t have a good flavor, but people are buying them because of economic necessity or that they don’t really know the difference.
它们非常苦，呈碱性；它们的味道不好，但人们购买它们是因为经济需要，或者他们并不真正知道其中的区别。
When I worked in Sweden with spice companies, I’m not allowed to buy Mexican chiles, which really offends me, because of the microlevels of bacteria that are on them.
当我在瑞典与香料公司合作时，我不被允许购买墨西哥辣椒，这真的让我很恼火，因为辣椒上含有微量细菌。
They’re not irradiated, so we can only use, in Europe for instance, irradiated things.
它们没有经过辐照，所以我们只能使用（例如在欧洲）经过辐照的东西。
They have to come from Peru.
他们必须来自秘鲁。
We don’t buy them from Chile, but we buy them from Peru.
我们不是从智利购买，而是从秘鲁购买。
All my sauces I then have to adapt, because I don’t get great anchos or great mulatos, but you can adapt.
然后我必须适应我所有的酱汁，因为我没有得到很棒的凤尾鱼或很棒的混血儿，但你可以适应。
Here’s a jalapeño pepper.
这是墨西哥辣椒。
Very popular in the United States.
在美国很受欢迎。
I can even go into a Giant or Safeway supermarket and they will have these.
我什至可以去 Giant 或 Safeway 超市，他们都会有这些。
They seem, to my untutored palate, to at least be serviceable.
在我未经训练的味觉看来，它们至少是有用的。
Why is the jalapeño so popular in the United States?
为什么墨西哥辣椒在美国如此受欢迎？
It’s probably because basically it’s the chile of northern Mexico, where most of the migrant workers come from, and it was part of the Tex-Mex tradition.
这可能是因为基本上它是墨西哥北部的智利，大多数移民工人来自那里，并且它是德克萨斯-墨西哥传统的一部分。
It’s very simple.
这很简单。
You can use it fresh, mostly, just right away.
大多数情况下，您可以立即使用它。
You can cut it up, use it in salsa fresca; you can put it in a blender; you can cook it in eggs; it’s a very easy chile to use.
你可以把它切碎，用在莎莎酱中；你可以把它放入搅拌机中；你可以把它放在鸡蛋里煮；这是一个非常容易使用的智利。
It has, for me, a lot of flavor that is more akin to the green bell pepper with heat.
对我来说，它有很多味道，更类似于热的青椒。
I prefer poblanos, which I think are richer, and the poblano, as you know, is the predecessor.
我更喜欢poblanos，我认为它更丰富，而poblano，如你所知，是前身。
We have one right here.
我们这里就有一个。
Yes.
是的。
The poblano: this is actually where the bell peppers come from.
波布拉诺：这实际上是青椒的产地。
This has much more depth.
这有更多的深度。
It doesn’t taste like green pepper, it’s not gaseous, and it has what I call real green-chile flavor.
它的味道不像青椒，也不是气态的，而且具有我所说的真正的青智利风味。
There’s only two in the world: New Mexico, the true green chile, grown at high altitudes.
世界上只有两个：新墨西哥州，真正的绿色智利，生长在高海拔地区。
If you grow it at low altitudes, it’s the Anaheim.
如果你在低海拔地区种植它，那就是阿纳海姆。
This, once again, grows in Mexico.
这种现象再次在墨西哥蔓延。
Roasted, I think it’s supreme.
烤的，我认为这是至高无上的。
This is one of my favorites.
这是我的最爱之一。
Interesting: in China, they don’t use it.
有趣的是：在中国，他们不使用它。
They don’t grow it.
他们不种植它。
Even when I see it in the markets in China — I went through China with a chef once, and we bought the chiles.
即使我在中国的市场上看到它 —— 我和一位厨师去过中国一次，我们买了辣椒。
We would roast them, and actually put them into Chinese .
我们会把它们烤熟，然后把它们翻译成中文。
.
。
.
。
We took over the restaurant, because I got tired of eating the food there.
我们接管了餐厅，因为我厌倦了那里的食物。
We were actually near Kashgar, or something.
我们实际上在喀什附近，或者其他地方。
They couldn’t believe the flavor of a roasted chile that was cleaned without washing, and then strips of it put in a stir-fried lamb dish, and how actually good it was.
他们不敢相信，未经清洗就清洗干净的烤辣椒，然后将其切条放入炒羊肉中，味道如何，实际上是多么美味。
COWEN: Here’s a habanero; splendid orange color.
COWEN：这是哈瓦那辣椒；绚丽的橙色。
What’s this good for, nothing?
这有什么用，没什么用？
Isn’t it too hot?
是不是太热了？
It’s big, which bemoans me that it might not be the right one.
它很大，这让我感到遗憾，它可能不是合适的。
Well, it’s got a good smell.
嗯，味道很好闻。
The habaneros are the chinense family, the tropical family.
哈瓦那哈瓦那属于中国科，热带科。
You want to use it for its tropical tone.
您想使用它的热带色调。
What you do is you open it carefully — and capsaicin hits your nose here.
你要做的就是小心地打开它，辣椒素就会进入你的鼻子。
You don’t actually have to touch it; you can feel it right there.
你实际上不必触摸它；你可以在那里感受到它。
You should know the heat of every one; go easily across the nose .
你应该了解每个人的热情；轻松地划过鼻子。
.
。
.
。
Here, though, you get a wonderful orange, mango, papaya scent.
但在这里，你会闻到美妙的橙子、芒果、木瓜的香味。
This roasted, and with the seeds and the veins taken out, reducing the heat by 60 percent: it’s still going to be hot because I have 20 percent left in the flesh.
这是烤过的，去掉了种子和叶脉，热量降低了 60%：它仍然会很热，因为我的果肉还剩下 20%。
It’s going to actually round out and pull up all that beautiful tropical aromatic.
它实际上会完善并拉出所有美丽的热带芳香。
That will make that pineapple, or salsa, or jerky, that will make it wonderful.
这会让菠萝、莎莎酱或肉干变得美味。
You smell the tropicalness?
你闻到热带风情了吗？
Don’t touch where it is, but just smell, and think orange, mango, fruit, pineapple.
不要触摸它所在的位置，而只是闻一闻，并想象橙子、芒果、水果、菠萝。
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
What’s the most underrated chile in the world?
世界上最被低估的智利是哪个？
The most underrated chile in the world?
世界上最被低估的智利？
I would probably say the poblano.
我可能会说波布拉诺。
The poblano?
波布拉诺？
I can do 100 dishes, I can do 100 salsas with this one chile.
我可以用这个智利做 100 道菜，我可以做 100 种莎莎酱。
How about from Peru, the ají amarillo?
来自秘鲁的 ají amarillo 怎么样？
That might be one of my picks.
这可能是我的选择之一。
Rocotos and ají amarillo, there you go.
Rocotos 和 ají amarillo，就这样。
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
What makes them special?
是什么让他们与众不同？
Well, they don’t have the depth and complexity.
嗯，它们没有深度和复杂性。
They’re more jungly.
他们更加丛林。
Chiles don’t like high nighttime temperatures; they like cool nighttime temperatures.
智利不喜欢夜间高温；他们喜欢凉爽的夜间温度。
The rocoto: when you have a tiradito, you’ve got to be in ceviche heaven.
The rocoto：当您享用 Tiradito 时，您就进入了酸橘汁腌鱼的天堂。
You were just down in Lima; I go down there all the time —
你刚刚抵达利马；我总是去那里——
Correct.
正确。
Those chiles, though, when you make dried sauces out of them, they don’t have a marriage of complexity like the Mexicans.
然而，当你用这些辣椒制作干酱汁时，它们并不像墨西哥人那样具有复杂的结合。
The Mexicans: when you’re in Bali and you’re looking at a weaving from 1900 that’s a triple ikat, the complexity per knot for this is just what Mexicans attain with their sauces.
墨西哥人：当您在巴厘岛时，您会看到 1900 年的三重扎染织物，每结的复杂程度正是墨西哥人用酱汁所达到的程度。
The pre-Columbian Peruvians had every single method of weaving, and yet the Mexicans — the reason I’m attracted so much to Mexican food is that they literally have probably the most complex uses of spices and chiles in the world, no question.
前哥伦布时期的秘鲁人拥有各种编织方法，而墨西哥人——我对墨西哥食物如此感兴趣的原因是，毫无疑问，他们对香料和辣椒的用途可能是世界上最复杂的。
On best regions for eating in Mexico
墨西哥最佳美食地区
In Mexico, where is the best region to eat?
在墨西哥，哪里是最好吃的地方？
I would still say the three regions; I like Puebla.
我还是会说三个地区；我喜欢普埃布拉。
Yes.
是的。
I’ll be there in two weeks, by the way.
顺便说一句，我将在两周内到达那里。
I think Puebla is underrated.
我认为普埃布拉被低估了。
I like the mole verdes in the morning, and the mole amarillos.
我喜欢早上的青痣和阿马里洛斯痣。
Of the seven moles, the mole amarillo there is better than Oaxaca.
七颗痣中，阿马里洛痣比瓦哈卡痣好。
People talk about Oaxaca.
人们谈论瓦哈卡。
Oaxaca is good, but not in the city of Oaxaca.
瓦哈卡很好，但不是在瓦哈卡市。
It’s a little overrated, I would say.
我想说，这有点被高估了。
You have to get outside.
你必须出去。
The place that has the pasilla de Oaxaca, the great smoked chile, the best smoked chile in the world — smoked for three days with seven different hardwoods — requires nine hours in a Land Rover to get to that village.
拥有 pasilla de Oaxaca 的地方，这是一种伟大的烟熏智利，世界上最好的烟熏智利 ——“用七种不同的硬木烟熏了三天”—— 需要乘坐路虎汽车九个小时才能到达那个村庄。
That chile is being still made by one village in the entire world.
全世界的一个村庄仍在生产这种智利。
Nobody makes it.
没有人成功。
They won’t show it to anybody.
他们不会向任何人展示它。
Even Diana Kennedy has not seen it.
就连戴安娜·肯尼迪也没有见过。
We’ve all been to the village.
我们都去过村子。
You still have products today, in Mexico, that are actually — not only are they world-class, they don’t exist anywhere else in the world.
今天，在墨西哥仍然有一些产品，它们实际上是 —— 它们不仅是世界一流的，而且是世界其他任何地方都不存在的。
The Chinese could never duplicate it, never.
中国人永远无法复制它，永远不可能。
COWEN: Let’s say you could pick, not a city, but one village in Mexico, and I’m going to send you there for a week, and all you can do is eat.
COWEN：假设你可以选择墨西哥的一个村庄，而不是一座城市，我将送你去那里一周，你所能做的就是吃饭。
Which village do you pick?
你选哪个村？
In the old days, I would have said Mérida, but not anymore.
以前，我会说梅里达，但现在不会了。
I would still say — I like Puebla today.
我仍然会说 — 今天我喜欢普埃布拉。
Near Puebla.
普埃布拉附近。
Puebla, and that area.
普埃布拉和那个地区。
Your take on pre-Hispanic Mexican cuisine.
您对前西班牙裔墨西哥美食的看法。
It has a lot of insects, it has fried worms, it has mosquito larvae — .
虫子很多，有炸虫子，有蚊子幼虫 — 。
Those are, as you know, they clean the canals.
如你所知，他们负责清理运河。
They actually got rid of the diseases that way.
他们实际上就是这样摆脱了疾病的。
The most interesting thing about it, though, is we actually went to the museum and looked at the pre-Columbian metates that were done for the nixtamal, and guess what?
不过，最有趣的是，我们实际上去了博物馆，看了前哥伦布时代为尼克斯塔马尔所做的元化物，你猜怎么着？
What?
什么？
They were never washed.
它们从未被清洗过。
They were never washed?
他们从来没有洗过吗？
Why is that?
这是为什么？
When you nixtamal corn, it becomes more nutritional, because you free up all the amino acids.
当你吃碱法玉米时，它会变得更有营养，因为你释放了所有的氨基酸。
The Italians have polenta; they’ve got pellagra.
意大利人有玉米粥；他们得了糙皮病。
What happens is, people talk about how fat Mexicans are, and how prediabetic.
实际情况是，人们谈论墨西哥人有多胖，以及糖尿病前期有多严重。
The reason is that they are using a postindustrial diet; the probiotics weren’t put back in.
原因是他们采用的是后工业化饮食方式。益生菌没有放回去。
Traditionally, the metates were never washed.
传统上，金属从来不被清洗。
They had levels of probiotics in there that were put back in, and the women, for the texture inside the tortillas, would use wild grasses that actually contained the largest amounts of wild yeast.
他们在那里放回了一定水平的益生菌，而女性为了玉米饼内部的质地，会使用实际上含有最多野生酵母的野草。
The reason you see that previous to 1925 in Mexico there’s no diabetes, is the probiotics and digestibility — one of the reasons — of the masa itself.
你会看到，1925 年之前墨西哥没有糖尿病，原因是湿润粉糊本身的益生菌和消化率——原因之一。
Let’s say we send you back —
假设我们将您送回 —
The flavor changes.
味道变了。
I was up in the mountains with a woman, and I had the best tortilla I’ve ever had in my life, and I couldn’t figure out why she was getting this flavor.
我和一个女人在山上，我吃了一生中吃过的最好的玉米饼，但我不明白为什么她会得到这种味道。
It’s a 500-year-old farm.
这是一个有500年历史的农场。
The reason was what happens when you use probiotics?
原因是当你使用益生菌时会发生什么？
In yogurt, in ice cream?
在酸奶里，在冰淇淋里？
You change the flavonoids.
你改变类黄酮。
Essentially, not only was it about health, she was making a more complex flavor and interesting dish.
从本质上讲，这不仅与健康有关，而且她正在制作一道口味更复杂、更有趣的菜肴。
What I go to villages for is to study those perceptional patterns of how and why are they getting more complex flavors.
我去村庄的目的是研究那些感知模式，了解他们如何以及为何获得更复杂的口味。
They don’t buy things on Amazon or go to the store or go to Whole Foods.
他们不会在亚马逊上买东西，也不去商店或去全食超市。
They are actually using their body as this window of opportunity to create complexity.
他们实际上是在利用自己的身体作为创造复杂性的机会之窗。
I send you back to central Mexico in the middle of the 18th century: (a) how good is the food and (b) how recognizably is it like — 1750, let’s say — how recognizably is it, in your opinion, what we would get in the outskirts of Oaxaca today, or near Pueblo, or in Guerrero?
我让你回到 18 世纪中叶的墨西哥中部：(a) 食物有多美味，(b) 食物的辨识度如何？——比如 1750 年——在你看来，我们今天在瓦哈卡郊区、普韦布洛附近或格雷罗州吃到的东西的辨识度如何？
Well, it depends what class you are.
嗯，这取决于你是什么阶级。
We’ll say that you’re on a ranch in northern Mexico.
我们会说你在墨西哥北部的一个牧场上。
You have enough money to buy what you want.
你有足够的钱去买你想要的东西。
I would say it’s probably very similar to it, except for the step for Maseca intervention in 1925 after the Revolution, because the government wanted to control the food supply and that’s why tortillas are so cheap.
我想说，这可能与它非常相似，除了 1925 年革命后马塞卡干预的步骤，因为政府想要控制食品供应，这就是玉米饼如此便宜的原因。
That was the same thing in France.
法国的情况也是如此。
When you go France today, why baguettes are the price they are.
当你今天去法国时，为什么法棍面包这么贵？
But the food: what the Spanish brought was pigs.
但食物：西班牙人带来的是猪。
They brought, obviously, pigs, sheep, beef.
显然，他们带来了猪、羊、牛肉。
Unfortunately, it ruined the ecosystem of the pre-Colombians, which was not dependent on rooting animals.
不幸的是，它破坏了前哥伦比亚人的生态系统，该生态系统不依赖于生根动物。
The same thing they did in the Caribbean, as you know, for trade.
如你所知，他们在加勒比地区为了贸易也做了同样的事情。
Europe could not grow its own food.
欧洲无法种植自己的粮食。
Europe, and if you take Columbus leaving, 30 percent of the people were starving to death without warfare.
欧洲，如果把哥伦布算走的话，百分之三十的人在没有战争的情况下就会饿死。
If you throw in warfare, in the end of the 15th century, 50 percent of the people would have been dead.
如果发动战争，到 15 世纪末，50% 的人就会死亡。
In New York today, why can I not get good New Mexican green chile at a restaurant?
今天在纽约，为什么我不能在餐馆里吃到美味的新墨西哥绿辣椒呢？
Can’t they just put it on a plane and fly it over?
他们不能把它放在飞机上然后飞过去吗？
They do put it on a plane!
他们确实把它放在飞机上！
I would pay twice the price .
我愿意支付两倍的价格。
.
。
.
。
They do put it on a plane!
他们确实把它放在飞机上！
But it’s not good.
但这并不好。
Why is this the case?
为什么会这样呢？
Maybe it’s not roasted, then, correctly.
那么，也许它没有被正确烘烤。
You need a fire roaster.
你需要一个火烤炉。
It needs to be done within the same time that it’s picked and it comes at the end of the season.
它需要在采摘的同时完成，并且在季节结束时完成。
The best time is at the end of August.
最好的时间是八月底。
Now, there is a chile that’s even better, which is called the chile pasado, which is the red chile.
现在，有一种更好的智利，叫做智利帕萨多，也就是红智利。
This is from New Mexico?
这是来自新墨西哥州的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
OK.
好的。
When the green turns red, the ristras, right?
当绿色变成红色时，就是ristras，对吗？
That chile, before it gets dried, it’s actually fire-roasted and then peeled and then dried.
那个智利，在晒干之前，其实是先用火烤一下，然后去皮，然后晒干。
That chile is sublime.
那个智利真是太棒了。
It’s called chile pasado.
它被称为智利帕萨多。
We’re losing, even in New Mexico or Mexico .
我们正在失败，即使是在新墨西哥州或墨西哥。
.
。
.
。
that tradition came up from Mexico.
这个传统来自墨西哥。
It was north of Monterrey.
它位于蒙特雷北部。
What I’m afraid of is we’re beginning to lose the palate and those ingredients.
我担心的是我们开始失去味觉和那些成分。
When you talk about a historical dish what I always think is — when they look at masa, which chef ever told you that you must put the probiotics back into .
当你谈论一道历史菜肴时，我总是想到的是“当他们看到masa时，哪个厨师曾告诉你必须将益生菌放回其中。”
.
。
.
。
No one ever told me that, believe it or not.
不管你信不信，从来没有人告诉过我这一点。
A lot of the chefs in New York are talking about organic corn, but they’re not talking about really resurrecting the complexity of the flavor of the native people.
纽约的许多厨师都在谈论有机玉米，但他们并不是在谈论真正恢复当地人风味的复杂性。
You know why?
你知道为什么吗？
Because they don’t go to the villages, they don’t eat there, and they don’t use their brain to think about how are these people achieving that level of complexity.
因为他们不去村庄，不在那里吃饭，也不用大脑去思考这些人是如何达到这种复杂程度的。
They’re not shopping for it.
他们不会购买它。
Chefs are shoppers today.
今天的厨师是购物者。
COWEN: Here’s a piece of purple corn.
考恩：这是一块紫玉米。
I bought it in the United States, but as you know in Mexico there are many colors of corn.
我在美国买的，但正如你所知，墨西哥的玉米有很多种颜色。
It’s vastly superior to even good corn we get in this country.
它比我们在这个国家买到的优质玉米要好得多。
What’s the future of corn?
玉米的前景如何？
Is the future of corn that the varieties from Mexico somehow will be replicated, spread, evolved, and innovated upon?
墨西哥玉米品种的未来是否会以某种方式被复制、传播、进化和创新？
Or is the future of corn a kind of monoculture where most of it is boring, a few strains of it taste good but are not really that interesting, and the different colors of corn in Mexico eventually disappear?
或者玉米的未来是一种单一栽培，其中大部分都很无聊，少数品种味道不错，但并不是那么有趣，墨西哥不同颜色的玉米最终会消失？
I did the corn posters after the chile posters —
我在智利海报之后做了玉米海报——
I know you did the corn posters!
我知道玉米海报是你做的！
There are 8,862 varieties of corn.
玉米有8,862个品种。
You know all of them?
你都认识吗？
MILLER: No, I don’t know them, but they’re in the University of Seattle, in the gene .
米勒：不，我不认识他们，但他们在西雅图大学，在基因里。
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whatever, the cryo- .
不管怎样，冷冻-.
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you know.
你知道。
The point is, I think that corn has a lot .
重点是，我认为玉米有很多。
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The North American Indians grew 400.
北美印第安人增加了 400 人。
Corn, even in the United States, before the winter, we always ate cornbread.
玉米，即使在美国，冬天之前，我们也总是吃玉米面包。
Corn was a big part of our culture, not just for ethanol.
玉米是我们文化的重要组成部分，而不仅仅是乙醇。
COWEN: Yes.
考恩：是的。
I think because of what’s happening in the United States about “natural,” I think that once people put their palates and really queue them up, and they can tell the difference in varieties, is when we’re going to get much more varietal sort of differentiation in the market.
我认为，由于美国正在发生的关于“天然”的事情，我认为一旦人们投入他们的味蕾并真正排队，并且他们能够分辨出品种的差异，我们就会在市场上获得更多的品种差异化。
If I give you six varieties of corn and I tell you “eat them” and you can’t tell the difference, then you probably are unwilling to pay for them.
如果我给你六种玉米，然后告诉你“吃它们”，而你却无法分辨出其中的区别，那么你可能不愿意为它们付钱。
If I gave you six varieties of red wine, one is a Bordeaux from the first growth and one is basically from Trader Joe’s, and you can’t tell the difference, well, you probably don’t .
如果我给你六种红酒，一种是来自一级酒庄的波尔多葡萄酒，另一种基本上来自 Trader Joe's，你无法分辨出区别，好吧，你可能看不到。
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This happens, that a lot of people can’t tell the difference with wine, but we still market the different strands.
发生这种情况时，很多人无法区分葡萄酒，但我们仍然销售不同的葡萄酒。
Maybe people are fooled or it’s a placebo effect.
也许人们被愚弄了或者这是安慰剂效应。
No, but people are interested in change today and what’s happening in that place and time.
不，但人们对今天的变化以及当时地点发生的事情感兴趣。
Let’s say that the 400 varieties of Native American corn come back to North America, and let’s say that you’re in Portland.
假设 400 种美洲原住民玉米回到了北美，并且假设您在波特兰。
There might be varieties that can only grow in Portland, who only grow in Maine, only grow in New Mexico.
可能有些品种只能在波特兰生长，只能在缅因州生长，只能在新墨西哥州生长。
For instance, the microbrew industry.
例如，微酿啤酒行业。
We talked about that in Portland.
我们在波特兰讨论过这个问题。
If a community wants to engage its food culture, on the community, local level, it can be amazing.
如果一个社区想要在社区、地方层面上融入其饮食文化，那就太棒了。
Portland has 400 beers.
波特兰有 400 种啤酒。
Why can’t they have 30, 40 varieties of corn just in Portland?
为什么波特兰就不能生产 30、40 种玉米？
It’ll come.
它会来的。
There’ll be a corn restaurant in Portland that’ll say, “You know what, we are not growing the corn that everybody else has.
波特兰会有一家玉米餐厅会说：“你知道吗，我们不种植其他人都种植的玉米。
We do this and we have recipes from all these cultures that use corn, from the Andes to Mexico, and we’re going to open a corn restaurant based on corn that did grow .
我们这样做，我们有来自所有使用玉米的文化的食谱，从安第斯山脉到墨西哥，我们将开设一家以确实种植的玉米为基础的玉米餐厅。
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One of my growers in New Mexico — when I first opened the restaurant in Santa Fe, “Can’t grow this, can’t do this, can’t do that.” Regular, you know, can’t do anything.
我在新墨西哥州的一位种植者——当我第一次在圣达菲开餐厅时，“不能种这个，不能做这个，不能做那个。”你知道，普通人无能为力。
Well, Elizabeth Berry, my grower, grew 482 varieties of beans without electricity on land that essentially the Anasazi used in the fourth century.
嗯，我的种植者伊丽莎白·贝里 (Elizabeth Berry) 在没有电力的情况下种植了 482 种豆子，而这些土地基本上是阿纳萨齐人在四世纪使用的土地。
These bean pods, do we actually know how many beans, or the variety of what a diet was?
这些豆荚，我们真的知道有多少豆子，或者饮食的种类吗？
Native cultures — Franz Boas, we get into that, but he collected 254 salmon recipes.
本土文化 — 弗朗兹·博阿斯（Franz Boas），我们深入探讨这一点，但他收集了 254 种鲑鱼食谱。
A Kwakiutl book would have been 3,000 recipes.
一本 Kwakiutl 书包含 3,000 个食谱。
The average American housewife does 79 in her lifetime, so who’s richer?
美国家庭主妇平均一生要做79件事，那么谁更富有呢？
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
We now move to the underrated versus overrated segment of the talk.
我们现在转向谈话中被低估和被高估的部分。
You’re free to pass on any of these, but I’ll just shoot out a few things.
你可以自由地传递这些内容，但我只会提出一些内容。
You tell me if you think they’re underrated or overrated.
如果您认为他们被低估或高估，请告诉我。
The Michelin dining guide.
米其林美食指南。
Overrated now.
现在被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
It’s too status-oriented.
这太注重地位了。
It’s dated.
它已经过时了。
I bet you the average age of the inspector is over 30.
我敢打赌，检查员的平均年龄超过30岁。
I don’t trust anybody at a company if the mean age is over 35 anymore.
如果公司里的平均年龄不再超过 35 岁，我就不再信任任何人。
I think that they’re out of touch.
我认为他们已经脱节了。
I think they’re replaying old themes.
我认为他们正在重演旧主题。
I think the Michelin guide is about status, reification of a belief system in a particular food and culture system that was based on the aristocracy.
我认为米其林指南是关于地位的，是基于贵族的特定食物和文化体系中的信仰体系的具体化。
The fast food restaurant Chipotle.
Chipotle 快餐店。
Well, they just got knocked today; their stock just went down another 7 percent.
好吧，他们今天才被击倒；他们的股票又下跌了 7%。
They’re closing their ShopHouses, which I knew they would.
他们要关闭店屋，我就知道他们会的。
They can’t do that.
他们不能那样做。
Chipotle had a good space.
Chipotle 的空间很好。
It did a lot of education.
它做了很多教育。
They developed Niman Ranch, for instance.
例如，他们开发了尼曼牧场。
The problem with every big food company, not just Chipotle, is you have 2,000 restaurants.
每个大型食品公司（不仅仅是 Chipotle）面临的问题是拥有 2,000 家餐厅。
You say you’re cooking the food, but the food comes from two plants, from a factory like Miniat that takes 200,000 pounds a day.
你说你正在烹饪食物，但食物来自两家工厂，来自像 Miniat 这样每天需要 20 万磅的工厂。
The public transparency .
公开透明。
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are you actually cooking the food, or are you manufacturing it?
你实际上是在烹饪食物，还是在制造食物？
I think every big food chain is probably going to face this gestalt of where, if you’re cooking, you can’t be a chain.
我认为每个大型食物链都可能会面临这样的困境：如果你做饭，你就不能成为一个链条。
I think the era of big food companies is actually over.
我认为大食品公司的时代实际上已经结束了。
A company like Starbucks: you would go into a town and you’d see Starbucks and it was familiar and known.
像星巴克这样的公司：你走进一个城镇，你会看到星巴克，它是熟悉的、众所周知的。
Now all you have to do is, “Oh, I’m in Columbus, Ohio: coffee.
现在你所要做的就是，“哦，我在俄亥俄州哥伦布：咖啡。
Oh, this guy is doing fair trade, an interesting Guatemalan blend, oh, I’m going to go there.” That information doesn’t —
哦，这家伙正在做公平贸易，一种有趣的危地马拉混合物，哦，我要去那里。”这些信息并不——
The problem with every big food company, not just Chipotle, is you have 2,000 restaurants.
每个大型食品公司（不仅仅是 Chipotle）面临的问题是拥有 2,000 家餐厅。
You say you’re cooking the food, but the food comes from two plants…Are you actually cooking the food, or are you manufacturing it?
你说你正在烹饪食物，但食物来自两种植物……你实际上是在烹饪食物，还是在制造食物？
I think every big food chain is probably going to face this gestalt of where, if you’re cooking, you can’t be a chain.
我认为每个大型食物链都可能会面临这样的困境：如果你做饭，你就不能成为一个链条。
You don’t need brands, right?
你不需要品牌，对吧？
You don’t need brands anymore.
你不再需要品牌了。
The consumer used to have brands as guide and trust.
消费者曾经有品牌作为引导和信任。
Today there are other ways of developing that.
如今，还有其他方法可以实现这一点。
We’re in consumer level 3.
我们处于消费者级别 3。
Consumers are defining brands, and how brands get used.
消费者正在定义品牌以及品牌的使用方式。
I think that the idea of brand is probably — you’re an economist — dated.
我认为品牌的想法可能是 ——“你是一名经济学家”—— 已经过时了。
COWEN: I agree.
考恩：我同意。
The idea of brands is in some ways on the way out.
品牌理念在某种程度上正在逐渐消失。
You’re a big lover of the culture of the American West.
您非常热爱美国西部文化。
There’s a lot of movies about the Old West.
有很多关于旧西部的电影。
The movie High Noon, overrated or underrated?
电影《正午》，被高估还是被低估？
Underrated, still.
仍然被低估。
Underrated still?
还被低估？
Gary Cooper is amazing.
加里·库珀太棒了。
COWEN: Gary Cooper is amazing.
COWEN：加里·库珀太棒了。
I mean, I think that those are epics.
我的意思是，我认为这些都是史诗。
I think that that’s our mythology.
我认为这就是我们的神话。
Of America?
美国的？
All of America?
全美国？
Yeah, and those are our heroes.
是的，那些是我们的英雄。
Those are our gods from Zeus, you know, our gods from Olympus.
这些是我们来自宙斯的神，你知道，我们来自奥林匹斯山的神。
We need those.
我们需要那些。
We always need something like that to grow up with.
我们总是需要这样的东西来陪伴我们成长。
Otherwise we’re left with whatever’s on TV.
否则我们就只剩下电视上的内容了。
COWEN: Maybe this is a loaded question, but southwestern cuisine, now, is it overrated or underrated?
COWEN：也许这是一个很沉重的问题，但西南美食现在是被高估还是被低估了？
It’s not appreciated.
不被赞赏。
So it’s underrated?
所以它被低估了？
And why?
为什么？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Because it’s hard to get the right ingredients?
因为很难找到合适的原料？
Takes a lot of time?
需要很多时间吗？
Yeah.
是的。
It was just too difficult and the chefs today are not interested.
这太难了，今天的厨师不感兴趣。
You have to translate three great traditions.
你必须翻译三个伟大的传统。
For me to do modern southwest, you have to know Mexican, you have to know Native American, and you have to know the history of the European influence on the Western traditions.
对我来说，要做现代西南地区，你必须了解墨西哥人，你必须了解美洲原住民，你必须了解欧洲对西方传统影响的历史。
Things like the cattle drive and those things.
诸如赶牛之类的事情。
You have to know all three traditions and all three ingredients and .
您必须了解所有三种传统和所有三种成分。
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I had to read 400 books just to write this book.
为了写这本书，我必须读 400 本书。
It took a lifetime —
这花了一生的时间——
That’s your Red Sage book.
那是你的红圣书。
I think that even chefs in my own kitchens, for instance, even after 11 years, could still not make some of the sauces after 11 years in the kitchen.
我想，即使是我自己厨房里的厨师，比如说，即使在11年后，在厨房里待了11年后，仍然做不出一些酱汁。
Some of the sauces have 30 to 40 ingredients and each ingredient, each time, has to be tasted because an eggplant, like a good .
Some of the sauces have 30 to 40 ingredients and each ingredient, each time, has to be tasted because an eggplant, like a good .
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When you’re in Japan, why does it take 15 years to be a good tempura chef?
When you’re in Japan, why does it take 15 years to be a good tempura chef?
Because that eggplant in June is tighter, has less water, is less bitter than the one in August, to where it has a different batter, a different temperature.
因为六月的茄子比八月的茄子更紧，水分少，苦味少，面糊不同，温度不同。
That 20 courses will require that chef to make exactly over 75, 85 decisions for each meal he does through each week of the year.
这 20 道菜将要求厨师在一年中每周的每一餐中做出超过 75 到 85 个决定。
I know a sushi chef in Tokyo who knows 1,900 varieties of seafood.
我认识一位东京的寿司厨师，他懂得 1,900 种海鲜。
If you’re a good southwest chef, you have to know at least 40 or 50 chiles.
If you’re a good southwest chef, you have to know at least 40 or 50 chiles.
You have to know all your spices, your beans, your vegetables.
You have to know all your spices, your beans, your vegetables.
You have to know game, you have to know drying and roasting.
你必须了解野味，你必须了解干燥和烘烤。
Probably you need to have 300 or 400 or 500 recipes under your belt.
也许您需要掌握 300 或 400 或 500 个食谱。
COWEN: What’s the most underrated European cuisine?
COWEN: What’s the most underrated European cuisine?
I think Hungary — I’ve been going to Budapest.
我想匈牙利 — 我去过布达佩斯。
I would say right now Budapest is on fire.
我想说现在布达佩斯正在着火。
I’m having great food, great wine.
我正在享用美味的食物，美酒。
I think it’s amazing.
我觉得这太棒了。
I love the peppers there too.
我也喜欢那里的辣椒。
I love the chiles.
我喜欢辣椒。
Have you been to Kalocsa?
您去过卡洛萨吗？
To the chile museum?
去智利博物馆？
No, I have not.
不，我没有。
It’s amazing, and they’re doing amazing things.
这太神奇了，他们正在做令人惊奇的事情。
London is always exciting because it’s the most international, most open; but I have had some great food.
London is always exciting because it’s the most international, most open;但我吃过一些很棒的食物。
I have eaten meals in Budapest for 40 euros that equal anything in Paris for 400.
I have eaten meals in Budapest for 40 euros that equal anything in Paris for 400.
The most overrated cuisine in Europe right now?
目前欧洲最被高估的美食？
Haute French cuisine.
高级法国菜。
Haute French cuisine.
高级法国菜。
Especially in the central part of Paris that’s more of the historically dated, sort of, tried and true.
Especially in the central part of Paris that’s more of the historically dated, sort of, tried and true.
I think that even finding a good French bistro is difficult.
I think that even finding a good French bistro is difficult.
I think that they’re in an identity crisis.
我认为他们正处于身份危机中。
I think that the French themselves are, again, like the Japanese — they’re trying to reinvent themselves, but they don’t want to let go.
我认为法国人自己也像日本人一样——他们试图重塑自己，但又不想放手。
The younger chefs, the best .
年轻的厨师，最好的。
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We went to Dersou, which is the hottest restaurant.
我们去了Dersou，这是最火的餐厅。
It’s a Japanese chef, who’s lived in Paris; he’s got this gastro-modern thing that’s going on three months, and he’s only serving cocktails, no wine.
这是一位住在巴黎的日本厨师； he’s got this gastro-modern thing that’s going on three months, and he’s only serving cocktails, no wine.
I took some older French people and they just couldn’t get it.
I took some older French people and they just couldn’t get it.
They thought that it was an abomination.
他们认为这是令人憎恶的。
He wasn’t interested in French cuisine.
他对法国菜不感兴趣。
He was reinterpreting where French dining and authenticity is in 2016.
He was reinterpreting where French dining and authenticity is in 2016.
The younger chefs are concerned with authenticity and the authenticity of the experience for their guests is more important than an authentic technique and recipe.
年轻的厨师关心真实性，为客人提供真实的体验比真实的技术和食谱更重要。
Where in the world do diners have the most advanced, exploratory, best palate?
Where in the world do diners have the most advanced, exploratory, best palate?
At the macro level, not for one particular thing.
在宏观层面上，不是针对某一特定的事情。
US.
我们。
US?
我们？
Why do you say that?
为什么这么说？
Because they’re just the most — they have the least hang-ups about identity systems with food.
因为他们对食物身份系统的困扰最少。
But we used to be food morons, right?
但我们曾经是美食白痴，对吧？
No, we were food-ignorant; there’s a difference.
不，我们对食物一无所知；有区别。
Food-ignorant.
饮食无知。
All right.
好的。
Moron means you can’t learn.
白痴意味着你无法学习。
OK.
好的。
I think we were intimidated by — we were colonized by the idea of European culture and French food, Chinese food.
I think we were intimidated by — we were colonized by the idea of European culture and French food, Chinese food.
I came from French-Canadian and I was told .
我来自法裔加拿大人，有人告诉我。
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Also as immigrant groups vie for status and power within a society, they generally refer to a third — the Italians didn’t like the French.
此外，当移民群体在社会中争夺地位和权力时，他们通常会提到第三个因素——意大利人不喜欢法国人。
I lived in Boston.
我住在波士顿。
My grandmother, if she saw a piece of garlic, she would’ve disowned me.
我的祖母，如果她看到一块大蒜，她就会和我断绝关系。
But the point was, I think, right now as a multicultural society, the chefs are traveling.
But the point was, I think, right now as a multicultural society, the chefs are traveling.
They’re opening.
他们正在营业。
Because of the immigrant populations people experience those levels .
由于移民人口，人们会经历这些水平。
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and the younger immigrants, we’re into our third generation, so Cassia for instance, third-generation Vietnamese in LA.
而年轻的移民，我们已经进入了第三代，例如卡西娅，洛杉矶的第三代越南人。
It got the big read up at New York Times ; I’ve been there a couple times.
《纽约时报》对它进行了大篇幅的报道；我去过那里几次。
You’ve got other chefs who are extending their own traditions.
还有其他厨师也在延续自己的传统。
You talk about Slanted Door; you talk about Cosme in New York City.
你谈论的是斜门；你谈论的是纽约市的 Cosme。
What we’re beginning to understand is what I have fought for my whole life: is ethnic food is as complex as any expensive French restaurant is.
我们开始明白我一生都在奋斗的事情：民族美食是否像任何昂贵的法国餐厅一样复杂。
Or often more so.
或者往往更是如此。
On palate coaching
味觉训练
Now you teach classes in tasting appreciation; is that correct?
现在你教授品鉴鉴赏课程；这是正确的吗？
Palate coaching.
味觉训练。
Palate coaching.
味觉训练。
Yeah, with companies, generally.
是的，一般来说，对于公司来说。
You try to teach the executives or the workers?
你想教高管还是工人？
Or who is taught?
或者谁受教？
We try to teach everybody.
我们尝试教导每个人。
It depends.
这取决于。
Most importantly if a brand is to have a brand .
要想有品牌最重要的是要有品牌。
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we’ll get into branding, but let’s say that I’m working with a culinary department.
我们将讨论品牌推广，但假设我正在与烹饪部门合作。
Just the culinary department.
只是烹饪部门。
What we want to do is bring the marketing people in, we want to bring the consumer-research people in, we want to bring in the culinary people, because we want a lexicon of what are we describing.
我们想要做的是引入营销人员，我们想要引入消费者研究人员，我们想要引入烹饪人员，因为我们想要一个我们所描述的内容的词典。
What is the experience?
这是什么体验？
We’re not creating a product.
我们不是在创造产品。
We’re creating an experience.
我们正在创造一种体验。
What is the consensus for what we like and don’t like and what’s good.
对于我们喜欢什么、不喜欢什么以及什么是好的，我们的共识是什么？
So, women: women have a different palate than men.
所以，女性：女性的口味与男性不同。
If I know that the objective consumer were — jerky, for instance, more women are eating jerky.
例如，如果我知道客观消费者是“肉干”，那么就会有更多的女性吃肉干。
Women don’t like to chew.
女人不喜欢咀嚼。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
The point is women also like more natural flavors, not as much dramatic flavors as men.
The point is women also like more natural flavors, not as much dramatic flavors as men.
Once we know this fact and we bring everybody in, we create jerkies.
一旦我们知道了这个事实并让每个人都参与进来，我们就会制作肉干。
Next time you eat a hamburger, just put it upside down.
下次吃汉堡的时候，把它倒过来就可以了。
Take your favorite hamburger from your favorite brand and put it upside down.
从您最喜欢的品牌中取出您最喜欢的汉堡并将其倒置。
You’ll see that it eats completely different.
你会发现它的吃法完全不同。
If we have, for instance, a hamburger; that’s something simple.
例如，如果我们有一个汉堡包；这很简单。
Six layers in a hamburger is 36 possibilities of eating it.
一个汉堡有六层，有36种吃法。
Next time you eat a hamburger, just put it upside down.
下次吃汉堡的时候，把它倒过来就可以了。
Take your favorite hamburger from your favorite brand and put it upside down.
从您最喜欢的品牌中取出您最喜欢的汉堡并将其倒置。
You’ll see that it eats completely different.
你会发现它的吃法完全不同。
All the fat receptors are now in a different mode.
所有的脂肪受体现在都处于不同的模式。
It’s almost like turning something to a mirror.
这几乎就像把东西变成镜子一样。
The experience and expression of it is completely — people don’t think that food .
它的体验和表达完全是 —— 人们不认为食物。
.
。
.
。
Everybody I watch, people in a restaurant, you know what they do?
我看到的每个人，餐馆里的人，你知道他们做什么吗？
What do they do?
他们做什么？
They eat and they take a glass of beer or wine.
他们吃饭并喝一杯啤酒或葡萄酒。
They’re drowning it out.
他们正在淹没它。
I say, “What you do is you light up and set the stage, take the beer or wine first, and then use the flavors.” “Really?”
我说，“你要做的就是点燃并搭建舞台，先拿啤酒或葡萄酒，然后使用香料。” “真的吗？”
But people have bad taste habits.
但人们有不良的味觉习惯。
They’re not trying to taste.
他们并没有尝试去品尝。
What’s another of a bad taste habit that a lot of Americans have that you could train someone out of?
许多美国人都有的另一个不良品味习惯是什么，你可以通过训练来改掉？
No attention span.
没有注意力集中时间。
We make them put it in their mouth.
我们让他们把它放进嘴里。
First of all: texture, temperature, movement, and flavor.
首先：质地、温度、运动和风味。
Which one is first and second always by the semiautomatic nervous system?
半自动神经系统总是将哪一个放在第一位和第二位？
You have no control over.
你无法控制。
Tell us, which?
告诉我们，哪个？
OK, first one is texture.
好的，第一个是纹理。
Anything you put in the mouth.
任何放进嘴里的东西。
Second one is temperature.
第二个是温度。
Obviously if it’s crunchy and hard and hot, you’re actually not going to understand the flavor.
显然，如果它又脆又硬又热，你实际上不会理解它的味道。
Your brain is just going to activate its defense system.
你的大脑将会激活它的防御系统。
Is it too hot?
是不是太热了？
What is it?
它是什么？
It’s a foreign object in my body.
这是我体内的异物。
OK, so yeah, I’m going to be really upset.
好吧，是的，我会非常沮丧。
That’s why sushi is kind of interesting.
这就是为什么寿司很有趣。
Because sushi comes out of this acceptance in Japan of the body as scent and sensual.
因为寿司源于日本人将身体视为气味和感性的观念。
It’s a movement into projecting sensual.
这是一种投射感性的运动。
We’re getting often the sensual space of how we use our body.
我们经常获得如何使用我们的身体的感官空间。
Fuchsia talked about crunch.
Fuchsia 谈到了紧缩。
What’s interesting to me would be about the psychology of why do we have that, because they choose to do something and they choose to not do something else.
对我来说有趣的是我们为什么会这样做的心理学，因为他们选择做某事并且选择不做其他事情。
Anyway, if you put something 10 seconds in the middle, then chew, because you get the retro-nasal, there’s two parts.
不管怎样，如果你在中间放一些东西10秒，然后咀嚼，因为你会得到鼻后，有两个部分。
Smell first.
先闻闻。
First of all smell, like in a wine thing.
首先是气味，就像葡萄酒中的气味一样。
Get the right software in your head.
在您的脑海中找到正确的软件。
Is it a fruit or is it a hot dog?
它是水果还是热狗？
Chew for a few seconds, then stop, and then the enzymatic response is 10 to 15; some flavors take 30 minutes to develop on the palate completely.
咀嚼几秒钟，然后停止，此时酶促反应为10至15；有些味道需要 30 分钟才能完全在味蕾上体现出来。
I always take 10 seconds and then chart.
我总是花 10 秒钟然后绘制图表。
What I’m going to ask you: is it a fast flavor or a slow flavor?
我要问你的是：是快味还是慢味？
Lemon is fast.
柠檬速度很快。
Pork fat is slow.
猪油慢。
Is it long or short?
是长还是短？
What do you mean long or short?
你说的长或短是什么意思？
A glass of wine can be very long; it can be very short.
一杯酒可以很长；它可以很短。
Raisins.
葡萄干。
We always start with raisins.
我们总是从葡萄干开始。
We take something that people know.
我们采取人们知道的东西。
Is a raisin long or short?
葡萄干是长的还是短的？
Actually it’s long.
其实很长。
So, it’s fairly slow, it’s fairly long — taste occurs over time and space.
所以，它相当慢，相当长 ——味道随着时间和空间的推移而发生。
Do not use cognitive systems for sensual perception.
不要使用认知系统进行感官知觉。
What you’re doing is, vocabulary is symbolically compressed in order to be expedited in terms of the way we communicate.
你所做的是，词汇被象征性地压缩，以便加快我们的沟通方式。
However, it does not communicate sensual.
然而，它并不传达感性的信息。
Otherwise we’d have no paintings, poetry, and music.
否则我们就不会有绘画、诗歌和音乐。
Once you tell people not to use words, you have to activate other cognitive perceptual systems.
一旦你告诉人们不要使用言语，你就必须激活其他认知感知系统。
No words.
没有言语。
Body temperature.
体温。
Don’t chew, minimum of 15 seconds, and then — memory is important.
不要咀嚼，至少 15 秒，然后 — 记忆很重要。
What I want you to do then is taste it the second time, because what you will have missed is that basically it’s gone by.
我希望你做的就是第二次品尝它，因为你会错过的是基本上它已经过去了。
You’re going to fill in.
你要填写。
You know when you scan and you read?
你知道当你扫描和阅读时吗？
You can actually see and understand by scanning.
通过扫描，你实际上可以看到并理解。
The brain scans known flavors.
大脑扫描已知的味道。
It fills in complexity.
它充满了复杂性。
You taste in 200th of a second.
你在 200 秒内就可以品尝到味道。
You have 2,500 taste buds; each one has 10,000 nerve endings.
你有 2,500 个味蕾；每个神经末梢都有 10,000 个。
Those two million perceptions per second, your brain is going to have to figure out where to put them and how to categorize them.
每秒有 200 万个感知，你的大脑必须弄清楚将它们放在哪里以及如何对它们进行分类。
Unless you’ve had preset categories and scan really quickly .
除非你已经预设了类别并且扫描得非常快。
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。
.
。
memory, you’ve had it and I let you do it the second time.
记忆，你已经经历过了，我让你第二次这么做。
You will see that you can fill it in and you’ll be able to get the richness, the complexity, and the length, and the flavor.
你会发现你可以把它填满，你将能够获得丰富性、复杂性、长度和风味。
By telling people taste occurs over time and space, just that sentence is the first one I always start with.
通过告诉人们品味随着时间和空间的变化而产生，这句话是我总是开头的第一句话。
You have to move into that perception.
你必须进入这种观念。
That way of thinking about taste.
这种思考品味的方式。
It is not immediate.
这不是立竿见影的。
It’s not cognitive.
这不是认知的。
It’s not electronic.
它不是电子的。
It’s not oral.
这不是口头的。
The enzymatic response of the body for breaking down the flavonoids, it takes time.
身体分解类黄酮的酶反应需要时间。
What people don’t give me is time.
人们不给我的是时间。
They don’t give you time?
他们不给你时间？
They don’t give me perceptual time.
他们没有给我感知时间。
How much does the culinary cutting edge depend on context?
烹饪前沿在多大程度上取决于环境？
Let’s say we took a Mark Miller–equivalent 50 years ago and fed that person — not a very young you, but someone your age now 50 years ago who knew the foods of that time — fed that Mark Miller the culinary cutting edge of today.
假设我们拿了一个马克·米勒（相当于 50 年前的人）来喂养那个人（不是一个非常年轻的你，而是一个 50 年前与你同龄、了解当时食物的人），喂养了马克·米勒（Mark Miller）当今的烹饪前沿。
How much would he be able to appreciate it?
他能欣赏到什么程度？
A lot.
很多。
A lot?
很多？
A lot.
很多。
I think because the context of using the body and perceptual space remains the same.
我认为是因为使用身体和感知空间的背景保持不变。
I may have changed from Chez Panisse to Alinea — we’re talking about generations of restaurants.
我可能已经从 Chez Panisse 换成了 Alinea ——我们谈论的是几代餐馆。
I think that chefs or I think that what culinary art does, is it moves our ability to move our perceptional sense of exploring the world, just as a weaving or a painting does.
我认为厨师或我认为烹饪艺术的作用是提高我们探索世界的感知能力，就像编织或绘画一样。
It creates other realities that we may not have actually realized were there, but were there.
它创造了其他我们可能没有真正意识到的现实，但它们确实存在。
When I talked about chiles, I was the first person — why was I the first person to write a book that chiles had flavors?
当我谈论辣椒时，我是第一个人 ——为什么我是第一个写辣椒有味道的书的人？
They’ve been eating chiles for 5,000 years.
他们吃辣椒已有 5000 年历史。
Yes.
是的。
I went to Robert Mondavi, we did a seminar, and I proved to him that they were like grapes.
我去找罗伯特·蒙大维，我们举办了一个研讨会，我向他证明它们就像葡萄一样。
When you blend chiles into mole —
当你将辣椒掺入鼹鼠中时——
Right.
对。
It took as much art and complexity as a winemaker.
它需要与酿酒师一样多的艺术和复杂性。
He was actually shocked, but he said I was correct.
他实际上很震惊，但他说我是对的。
Yes.
是的。
He had never thought — but he had never tasted it, right?
他从来没有想过——但他从来没有尝过，对吗？
Don’t go in with the wrong perception.
不要带着错误的观念进入。
Don’t think that chiles are hot, for instance.
例如，不要认为辣椒很辣。
On supertasting
关于超味觉
Sometimes I wonder about this.
有时我想知道这一点。
You are what, in my opinion, what is sometimes called a supertaster.
在我看来，你就是有时被称为味觉超级者的人。
You can taste fine gradations and different flavors and items a level beyond how much other people can.
您可以品尝到精细的层次和不同的口味和物品，其程度超出了其他人的水平。
Even people who might call themselves foodies.
即使是那些自称为美食家的人。
Right?
正确的？
You have some special sensory ability.
你有一些特殊的感官能力。
Well, actually, the term supertaster is about the number of actual taste buds per centimeter on your palate.
嗯，实际上，“超级味觉者”这个词是指你上颚上每厘米的实际味蕾数量。
Actually I am not, biologically, a supertaster in terms of the number of receptors that I have.
事实上，从生物学角度来看，就我拥有的受体数量而言，我并不是一个超级味觉者。
I don’t think Bernard Berenson, who was one of the greatest art critics, or Turner, actually had extraordinary eyesight.
我不认为最伟大的艺术评论家之一伯纳德·贝伦森或特纳实际上拥有非凡的视力。
COWEN: You may be better than a supertaster.
COWEN：你可能比超级味觉者还要好。
It’s at the cognitive level rather than on your tongue.
这是在认知层面而不是在你的舌头上。
What I try to do is what — remember the book The Shallows came out?
我想做的是 —— 还记得《浅滩》这本书出版了吗？
— I try to do “deep tasting,” like deep reading.
— 我尝试“深度品味”，就像深度阅读一样。
Are we looking for patterns that exist within the perceptional space that I wasn’t looking for before?
我们是否在寻找存在于我之前没有寻找的感知空间中的模式？
All of taste is about — part of it is memory, part of it is perception, part of it is connecting those complexities.
所有的味道都是关于——一部分是记忆，一部分是感知，一部分是连接这些复杂性。
Interesting enough, I’m slightly handicapped because I have a little bit of auditory processing disorder.
有趣的是，我有轻微的障碍，因为我有一点听觉处理障碍。
What happens is, when I was a child all of the world around me was categorized into taste.
发生的事情是，当我还是个孩子的时候，我周围的所有世界都被归类为品味。
I can hear fine, but it creates cognitive dissonance.
我的听力很好，但它会造成认知失调。
I can’t drive the car.
我不会开车。
The point was, because I learned that my brain can actually look at taste and actually make the world around me sensible, then when I looked at a raisin people would say, “What do you mean that there’s more flavors in raisins?” I say, “No, pay attention.
关键是，因为我了解到我的大脑实际上可以观察味道，并让我周围的世界变得明智，所以当我看到葡萄干时，人们会说，“你说葡萄干有更多味道是什么意思？”我说：“不，注意点。
Listen, and listen carefully.” Have you ever listened to a harpsichordist?
听着，仔细听着。”你听过大键琴演奏家的演奏吗？
Their attention span has to be so precise, that it’s a difference of a 40th of a second.
他们的注意力必须非常精确，相差四十分之一秒。
Now, when you play another electronic music, you don’t develop that skill set.
现在，当你演奏另一种电子音乐时，你不会发展那种技能。
How many different flavors or kinds of soy sauce can you distinguish by taste?
你能通过味道区分多少种不同口味或种类的酱油？
I’ve done a panel of 40 at a time.
我一次做过 40 个人的小组。
I’ve had a kitchen home of up to 70 at a time.
我家的厨房一次最多可以容纳 70 个人。
And you can tell one from the other?
你能区分其中之一吗？
You learn.
你学习。
By saltiness, by sweetness, by —
咸味、甜味、——
They all have a characteristic profile of complexities, of umamis as we might call it.
它们都具有复杂性的特征，我们可以称之为鲜味。
Dark, rich tones.
深色、丰富的色调。
If you put 15 cabernets in front of me I can still tell.
如果你把 15 瓶赤霞珠放在我面前，我还是能分辨出来。
You can do that.
你可以这么做。
Anybody can do that.
任何人都可以做到。
We generally don’t think of shoyu or soy sauce as being that complex, so when we taste it we don’t .
我们通常不认为酱油或酱油那么复杂，所以当我们品尝它时，我们并不这么认为。
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。
.
。
If I tell you this is an $800 bottle of wine —
如果我告诉你这是一瓶价值 800 美元的葡萄酒 —
Yes.
是的。
You turn on your complexity, sort of perceptional scan.
你打开你的复杂性，一种感知扫描。
If I tell you that this is a Mexican taco you don’t turn it on, you’ve already —
如果我告诉你这是墨西哥玉米卷，你不打开它，你已经——
I do, but yes, I understand.
我知道，但是，是的，我理解。
You do, Tyler.
是的，泰勒。
So, soy sauces to me .
所以，给我打酱油。
.
。
.
。
When you’re in Japan, the pickle on the table will tell me within 20 miles of where you grew up and where you live.
当你在日本时，桌上的泡菜会告诉我你长大的地方和居住的地方在 20 英里以内。
The shoyu at the sushi — each great sushi house not sushi bars actually blends their own shoyu.
寿司店里的酱油——每个很棒的寿司店而不是寿司店实际上都混合了自己的酱油。
I can tell, not only whether you’re from Edo, but what generation.
我不仅能看出你是不是江户人，还能看出你是哪一代人。
Are you from the ’30s?
你是30年代的人吗？
The ’40s?
40 年代？
The ’50s?
50 年代？
Of what generation did you actually grow up to actually believe that that was the style of the shoyu?
您是哪一代人真正相信这就是酱油的风格？
If you’re in Kyoto, these people they .
如果你在京都，这些人就是他们。
.
。
.
。
Japan has really been that way because it is literally those 40 regions are so maintaining that isolation that you learn the differences from going from one to another.
日本确实就是这样，因为它确实有 40 个地区保持着这种孤立状态，以至于你从一个地区到另一个地区都会了解到差异。
I can take a train of two hours in Japan and cover more culinary differences than you can in the United States.
我可以在日本乘坐两个小时的火车，比在美国能体验到更多的美食差异。
Q&A with Megan McArdle
梅根·麦卡德尔问答
Thank you for those wonderful remarks, Mark.
谢谢你的精彩评论，马克。
With that, I turn the questioning over to Megan McArdle of Bloomberg.
至此，我将问题转交给彭博社的梅根·麦卡德尔。
McARDLE: You talked about how women and men’s palates are different.
麦卡德尔：您谈到了女性和男性的味觉有何不同。
How is their cooking different?
他们的烹饪有何不同？
I mean, there is an editor I know now at Eater, was at Saveur, who said that male cookery was all sort of knives, guts, and fire.
我的意思是，我现在在 Eater 认识一位编辑，他在 Saveur 工作，他说男性烹饪就是各种刀子、内脏和火。
“Knives, spice, and fire,” I think, was how she put it.
“刀、香料和火，”我想，这就是她的说法。
That often seems like a fair characterization.
这通常看起来是一个公平的描述。
My guy friends really want to load up the heat.
我的男性朋友们真的很想增加热量。
I remember having a guy tell me that the secret to really good cooking was just dump Cajun seasoning all over everything.
我记得有人告诉我，真正做好烹饪的秘诀就是把卡真调味料倒在所有东西上。
McARDLE: How do women cook differently?
麦卡德尔：女性的烹饪方式有何不同？
I mean, we’re not going to get into developmental theory here.
我的意思是，我们不打算在这里讨论发展理论。
McARDLE: No, no — what are the characteristics of it?
McARDLE：不，不——它有什么特点？
I can tell you the general broad strokes: women are essentially more concerned with internal experiences.
我可以告诉你大致的情况：女性本质上更关心内在体验。
They are more motivated to talk to someone in a dining room table.
他们更有动力与餐桌上的人交谈。
The guy will look at the television.
那家伙会看电视。
You get four guys, and the four women will talk to each other.
你有四个男人，四个女人会互相交谈。
The point is, is that early on, there’s a better internalization of the phenomenological world inside the body.
关键是，在早期，身体内部的现象世界有更好的内化。
They actually begin to recognize those characteristics of things that are what I would call “body perceptuality.”
他们实际上开始认识到事物的这些特征，我称之为“身体知觉”。
That tends to be a little bit more subtle.
这往往更加微妙。
It tends to be a little bit more in time.
时间往往会多一些。
They don’t like the transformative process as much as understanding the — I’m going out on a limb — but they would prefer to accept the flavor, personality as is and understand it, rather than change it into something, that I do.
他们不喜欢这种转变的过程，也不喜欢理解“我要冒险了”，但他们更愿意接受原样的风味、个性并理解它，而不是把它变成我所做的那样。
Like Fuchsia said, if you took that carrot, that pork, that kidney, and just made it spicy, that’s what guys — they want to change it and transform it.
就像 Fuchsia 所说的那样，如果你拿走那个胡萝卜、那个猪肉、那个腰子，然后把它变得辣起来，那就是人们想要改变它并改变它。
They want to create something new.
他们想要创造新的东西。
They want to actually not allow .
他们想却不允许。
.
。
.If you allowed nature to take its course, then you wouldn’t be cooking.
.如果你顺其自然，那么你就不会做饭了。
You don’t have to heat.
你不必加热。
You’re not transforming with spice.
你不是用香料来改变的。
Except for Lydia Shire in Boston — she was the only one that I could never tell — women tend to actually believe that the ingredient should be left alone (Alice Waters or that school of cooking), and that you can literally coax natural ingredients into something that’s complex and satisfying and sophisticated and healthy.
除了波士顿的莉迪亚·夏尔（Lydia Shire）——“她是唯一一个我永远无法告诉的人”——“女性实际上倾向于相信这种成分应该单独保留（爱丽丝·沃特斯（Alice Waters）或那个烹饪学校），并且你实际上可以将天然成分哄骗成复杂、令人满意、精致和健康的东西。
And if it’s sustainable, it’s even better.
如果它是可持续的，那就更好了。
Men: I believe that if we go too far, that we’re not going to learn how to make moles, that we’re not concerned with other black bean soups.
男士：我相信，如果我们走得太远，我们就不会学会如何做鼹鼠，我们就不会关心其他黑豆汤。
When I lived in Guatemala, every woman in the village made black bean soup.
当我住在危地马拉时，村里的每个妇女都会做黑豆汤。
Not one of those women ever told me, “I go to the market and buy organic black beans, so mine is better.” No. Every woman knew how good her black bean soup was.
这些女性中没有一个告诉我，“我去市场买有机黑豆，所以我的更好。”不，每个女人都知道她的黑豆汤有多好。
The best woman in the village, she has 37 steps.
村里最好的女人，她有37级台阶。
She really got me going.
她真的让我继续前进。
Women tend to be more focused and more creative and more subtle.
女性往往更专注、更有创造力、更微妙。
It doesn’t mean that they’re not as rich a tradition.
这并不意味着他们的传统不那么丰富。
It just means that it’s a different level of recognition.
这只是意味着这是一个不同级别的认可。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
McARDLE: Yes, absolutely.
麦卡德尔：是的，绝对如此。
Mezcal or tequila?
梅斯卡尔酒还是龙舌兰酒？
Chichicapa by Del Maguey is my favorite mezcal in the world.
Del Maguey 的 Chichicapa 是世界上我最喜欢的梅斯卡尔酒。
When it’s tequilas, I still go for silvers, unless you present it in a margarita.
当龙舌兰酒时，我仍然会选择银杯，除非你把它放在玛格丽塔酒中。
You should always use silvers because they don’t have any wood.
您应该始终使用银器，因为它们没有任何木材。
If you’re using fruit, whether it’s a mango, strawberry, or anything else, that idea of the gold coin or the upscale — that’s just a marketing ploy to make more money.
如果你使用水果，无论是芒果、草莓还是其他任何东西，金币或高档的想法——这只是一种赚更多钱的营销策略。
It makes them more money, but it makes worse margaritas.
这让他们赚更多的钱，但玛格丽塔酒却变得更糟。
Mezcal, though, was — and is — a native tradition built on extreme attention to nature.
然而，梅斯卡尔过去是——现在也是——一种建立在对自然极度关注基础上的本土传统。
It’s only wild agaves.
这只是野生龙舌兰。
Each one of the palenques that Ron uses only can produce 400 cases a year.
Ron 仅使用的每一台帕伦克每年就能生产 400 箱。
It’s totally out of that village and that tradition.
它完全脱离了那个村庄和那个传统。
Even though those 20 villages are within 100 miles, they might as well be two continents apart because they express the whole world of .
尽管这 20 个村庄相距不到 100 英里，但它们就像相隔两个大陆一样，因为它们代表了整个世界。
.
。
.
。
You put five painters in Paris in 1900, and you get different paintings — in the same building.
1900 年，你在巴黎安置了五位画家，你会在同一栋建筑中得到不同的画作。
In Montmartre.
在蒙马特。
McARDLE: Your favorite guilty pleasure?
麦卡德尔：你最喜欢的罪恶感是？
Bad food?
食物不好？
It’s not a bad food.
这不是一种糟糕的食物。
It’s ice cream.
这是冰淇淋。
Ice cream is God’s gift, too .
冰淇淋也是上帝的礼物。
.
。
.
。
McARDLE: What flavor?
麦卡德尔：什么味道？
Any particular —
任何特定的——
I like them all.
我都喜欢。
I happen to like cold.
我恰好喜欢冷。
I have a very sensitive palate.
我的味觉非常敏感。
I won’t eat any hot soups or teas.
我不会吃任何热汤或茶。
I always eat cold when I can get it.
当我能得到的时候，我总是吃冷的。
That’s preferable.
这是更好的选择。
That would be my preference.
那是我的偏好。
Hot fudge sundae.
热软糖圣代。
How’s that?
怎么样？
McARDLE: We talked about this a little earlier.
麦卡德尔：我们早些时候讨论过这个问题。
I have never been able to stand the taste of cooked fish.
我一直无法忍受煮熟的鱼的味道。
I have been trying, because it’s good for me and my husband loves fish, but that fishy flavor makes me gag.
我一直在尝试，因为这对我有好处，而且我丈夫喜欢鱼，但那种鱼味让我作呕。
How would you advise someone like me?
你会如何建议像我这样的人？
Obviously, this is a broader question than just fish.
显然，这是一个比鱼更广泛的问题。
I’m generally pretty willing to eat almost anything, but you have that one thing or you have a couple of things where you’re desperate to be able to tolerate it; how do you go about learning or teaching yourself?
我通常很愿意吃几乎任何东西，但是你有一种或几种东西你非常想忍受它；你如何进行自学或自学？
We talked earlier.
我们之前谈过。
I don’t eat cooked fish at night because the enzymes in your body change.
我晚上不吃煮熟的鱼，因为你体内的酶会发生变化。
I only eat raw fish and shellfish.
我只吃生鱼和贝类。
You actually may be the supertaster.
你实际上可能是味觉超级者。
Now, supertasters tend to have — the problem with parents who don’t realize the child — they become very fixated.
现在，味觉超常者往往会遇到“父母没有意识到孩子的问题”，他们会变得非常专注。
They like things or don’t like things because they’re such powerful sensations for them.
他们喜欢某件事或不喜欢某件事，因为它们对他们来说是如此强烈的感觉。
Children, in particular, don’t really know what to do with that category.
尤其是孩子们，他们真的不知道如何处理该类别。
If they had something that was green that was very bitter, that’s why they won’t eat green beans.
如果他们有非常苦的绿色东西，那就是他们不吃绿豆的原因。
They associate the entire category with something that they’re going to be defensive about.
他们将整个类别与他们要防御的事物联系起来。
Your question about cooked fish would be, have you ever tried flame-broiled sashimi at a sushi —
你关于煮熟的鱼的问题是，你有没有尝试过寿司上的火焰烤生鱼片——
McARDLE: I can — like a seared tuna, right?
麦卡德尔：我可以像烤金枪鱼一样，对吧？
That’s basically raw inside?
里面基本上都是生的？
Yeah.
是的。
McARDLE: Yeah, I can totally eat that.
麦卡德尔：是的，我完全可以吃那个。
It’s when it’s a cooked salmon or something.
当它是煮熟的鲑鱼或其他东西时。
How far is it cooked?
煮到什么程度？
Do you know how many degrees?
你知道多少度吗？
McARDLE: No. I’m not daring enough to cook my own fish, because I hate it so much.
麦卡德尔：不。我不敢自己煮鱼，因为我非常讨厌它。
Flavonoids develop and change over every two or three degrees.
黄酮类化合物每两到三度就会发育和变化。
That’s why it’s a misnomer, the more you cook meat, the more liver-y it’s going to get.
这就是为什么这是一个误称，肉煮得越多，它的肝脏就越多。
Fish is exactly the same.
鱼是完全一样的。
What you want to do is get a piece of fish and find out.
你想做的就是拿一块鱼并找出答案。
130, I bet you the higher on the more objectionable flavonoids have not developed.
130、我敢打赌你越高越令人反感的黄酮类化合物还没有开发出来。
It’s cooked, 135 is cooked, it’ll go up five, but I would just go home, do salmon and halibut.
煮熟了，135煮熟了，会涨5，但我会回家做鲑鱼和大比目鱼。
I would start with halibut, because it could be the oils.
我会从大比目鱼开始，因为它可能是油。
It could be a combination of oils and flavonoids, or we could just make a really spicy fish when we go to a country mart in Mexico City.
它可能是油和类黄酮的组合，或者我们可以在去墨西哥城的乡村市场时制作一条非常辣的鱼。
Just put red and green chile, throw it on the grill, and I bet you would eat it.
只要放上红辣椒和绿辣椒，把它扔到烤架上，我打赌你一定会吃掉它。
It would be wonderful.
那将是美妙的。
McARDLE: The sous-vide revolution: how do you feel about this?
麦卡德尔：真空低温烹调革命：您对此有何感想？
I’ve been working with it a long time.
我已经使用它工作了很长时间。
I worked with American Airlines in the ’80s and ’90s, I worked with Cuisine Solutions.
我在 80 年代和 90 年代曾在美国航空公司工作，也曾在 Cuisine Solutions 工作过。
It is an amazing technique, and it tends to be overused by chefs who believe that a perfect texture is preferable to a more complex uneven.
这是一项令人惊叹的技术，但厨师往往会过度使用它，他们认为完美的质地比更复杂的不均匀质地更可取。
Now, actually that’s wrong, because the brain doesn’t know what it is.
现在，实际上这是错误的，因为大脑不知道它是什么。
It knows what it’s not.
它知道它不是什么。
The key to teaching flavor is not teaching what that ingredient is, it’s teaching what it’s not.
教授味道的关键不是教授该成分是什么，而是教授它不是什么。
If I have a sous-vide piece of lamb, and it’s not crusted, and it’s not browned, and there’s no Maillard — when you look at lamb, and it has rosé of 50 percent, it will start darker .
如果我有一块真空低温烹调法的羊肉，它没有结皮，也没有变成棕色，而且没有美拉德 ——当你观察羊肉时，它的玫瑰色含量为 50%，它的颜色会开始变深。
It will be more Maillard-y, it will be cooked.
它将更加美拉德风味，它会被煮熟。
The brain, then, has four, five different perceptional zones to actually understand and appreciate and differentiate.
那么，大脑有四、五个不同的感知区域来真正理解、欣赏和区分。
A sous-vide piece of lamb that’s pink all the way through, with one texture, with no Maillarding, and no flavor of the lamb developed, because it never went high enough — it actually wouldn’t be lamb-y enough, and it will taste like a lamb piece of bubblegum or a sponge.
一块真空低温烹调法的羊肉，从头到尾都是粉红色的，质地单一，没有美拉德反应，也没有羊肉的味道，因为它的味道永远不够高——它实际上不够羊肉味，而且尝起来就像一块泡泡糖或海绵羊肉。
I use interrupted sous vide.
我用的是间歇式真空低温烹调法。
I do a Chinese squab.
我做的是中国乳鸽。
I used to brine it for 48 hours with 14 spices, mainly cumin and chiles to get it all the way through the squab, then roast it, and then deep fry it like the Chinese.
我曾经用14种香料（主要是小茴香和辣椒）将其腌制48小时，以便将乳鸽完全浸透，然后烘烤，然后像中国人一样油炸。
I found that by sous-viding it, they went in for 24 hours.
我发现通过真空低温烹调法，他们可以进去24小时。
Then I cook it sous vide at a different, higher temperature, even after it’s been brined.
然后我用真空低温烹调法在不同的、更高的温度下烹饪它，即使它已经被腌制了。
Then I deep fry it.
然后我把它油炸。
I find that that, what I call interrupted sous vide, as a technique — you get intensity while preserving some freshness.
我发现，我称之为中断式真空低温烹调法，作为一种技术，你可以在保持新鲜度的同时获得强度。
Let’s say that I did scallops, and I do them sous vide.
假设我做了扇贝，而且是真空低温烹调法。
My scallops are cooked for exactly 18 minutes, and with a wine dinner, I want to match the chamomile in a sauvignon blanc.
我的扇贝煮了整整 18 分钟，搭配葡萄酒晚餐，我想搭配长相思中的洋甘菊。
How do I do that?
我该怎么做？
I actually put in some fresh chamomile with the scallops, cook it sous vide, and the aromatic profile goes through.
实际上，我在扇贝中加入了一些新鲜的洋甘菊，用真空低温烹调法烹调，芳香四溢。
I do a tostada, do this and that, and that sauvignon blanc with that is amazing.
我会做托斯塔达，做这个做那个，然后搭配长相思真是太棒了。
McARDLE: What is the biggest mistake that people make when they go into a southwestern restaurant and sit down and order?
麦卡德尔：人们走进一家西南餐厅坐下来点菜时犯的最大错误是什么？
They want chips and salsa; that’s a big mistake.
他们想要薯条和莎莎酱；这是一个很大的错误。
McARDLE: So explain this.
麦卡德尔：解释一下。
Well, it’s a phenomenon: first of all, they get it free.
嗯，这是一种现象：首先，他们免费获得它。
Second of all, chips are usually done poorly, and then the salsa is usually done poorly.
其次，薯条通常做得很差，然后莎莎酱通常也做得很差。
It’s a good excuse to sit there and drink beers and margaritas.
这是坐在那里喝啤酒和玛格丽特酒的好借口。
I don’t need that excuse.
我不需要那个借口。
But what you’re looking for is something that comes into — let’s say buffalo.
但你要寻找的是来自于 的东西——比如说水牛。
We eat more buffalo.
我们吃更多的水牛。
I was cooking buffalo; it was difficult to sell back in the ’70s and ’80s.
我正在煮水牛；在 70 年代和 80 年代，很难卖回。
We know it’s healthier, we know it has less cholesterol.
我们知道它更健康，我们知道它的胆固醇含量更少。
The other thing is, you want intense, small portions of food.
另一件事是，你想要大量的、少量的食物。
When you’re looking at a southwest menu, you want to look for the sauces, the complexity.
当您查看西南菜单时，您会想要寻找酱汁和复杂性。
You want to look for things that would probably take you — some things have been cured.
你想要寻找那些可能会带你走的东西 —— 有些东西已经被治愈了。
Even Red Sage, what was the first thing that we that we did?
即使是红圣，我们做的第一件事是什么？
We actually did a carpaccio of venison.
我们实际上做了一份鹿肉薄片。
We had a tartare mix of venison and buffalo with sage; that was on the first menu at Red Sage in 1990.
我们吃了鹿肉、水牛肉和鼠尾草的鞑靼混合菜；这是 1990 年 Red Sage 的第一张菜单上的菜。
Now, if you go around the United States 25 years later, you don’t find that anymore.
现在，如果 25 年后你环游美国，你就再也找不到这样的地方了。
I don’t know if I answered the question.
我不知道我是否回答了这个问题。
McARDLE: That’s all right.
麦卡德尔：没关系。
If someone came to you — this is a game my family used to play in the car — someone comes to you and says, “I’m a fairy: you are only going to be allowed to eat three foods for the rest of your life, three specific dishes.” So not like tacos, but a kind of taco.
如果有人来找你 ——这是我家人以前在车里玩的游戏 —— 有人来找你说：“我是仙女：你的余生只能吃三种食物，三种特定的菜肴。”所以不像炸玉米饼，而是一种炸玉米饼。
You don’t have to worry about nutrition, you don’t have to worry about calories, but you have to pick three foods, and those are the only three foods you can ever have again.
你不必担心营养，你不必担心卡路里，但你必须选择三种食物，而这是你唯一可以再次吃的三种食物。
Which three foods?
哪三种食物？
Certainly lobster, because I grew up in that part of the world.
当然是龙虾，因为我是在世界的那个地方长大的。
Nova Scotia, cooked in seaweed, with butter — drawn butter.
新斯科舍省，用海藻烹制，配上黄油——黄油。
I would say my shore dinner, which is lobster, clams — they’re all the one meal.
我会说我的岸边晚餐是龙虾、蛤蜊——它们都是一顿饭。
McARDLE: Everyone always tries to layer.
McARDLE：每个人总是尝试分层。
Oysters, fried clams.
生蚝，炸蛤蜊。
Lobster for sure.
肯定是龙虾。
I would say my second one would be, oh boy.
我想说我的第二个是，天哪。
Something spicy.
有点辣。
I vie between Thai and Mexican as my two favorite spicy cuisines in the world.
我在泰国和墨西哥之间争夺世界上我最喜欢的两种辛辣美食。
I would probably say a Mexican, amazing sort of taco with great salsas, and the right kind of tortilla.
我可能会说墨西哥玉米饼，很棒的墨西哥玉米卷，配上美味的莎莎酱，还有合适的玉米饼。
The third thing I might say would be, surprisingly, probably just a chuleton de buey: five-year-old cow, northern Spain, roasted completely, correctly, and the umami of each piece of meat is better than any other meat that exists in the world.
我要说的第三件事是，令人惊讶的是，可能只是一块 chuleton de buey：来自西班牙北部的五岁牛，完全正确地烘烤，每块肉的鲜味都比世界上任何其他肉都要好。
There are better, richer things in Japan, but that part of northern Spain is just amazing.
日本有更好、更丰富的东西，但西班牙北部的那部分真是太神奇了。
What part of northern Spain is that?
那是西班牙北部的哪一部分？
It’s outside of Burgos, and it’s an extension of the Basque area.
它位于布尔戈斯郊外，是巴斯克地区的延伸。
Those are working cattle.
这些都是劳作的牛。
You saw the film, Steak (R)evolution?, I’m sure.
我确定你看过电影《牛排进化论》？
There’s one that I like in Barcelona, which actually does the espadrilles out of the sea cucumbers, too.
我喜欢巴塞罗那的一家店，它实际上也是用海参做麻底鞋的。
I think that the honesty of Spanish food, even though I went to elBulli many times, about seven or eight times, still remains a cuisine that — we talked about the ham that Fuchsia found.
我认为西班牙菜的诚实，尽管我去过elBulli很多次，大约七八次，但仍然是一种美食， - 我们谈到了Fuchsia发现的火腿。
We talked about the ham in the Dolomites.
我们谈论了多洛米蒂山的火腿。
I think that we look culturally for, that we’re always searching for those foods in our environment that would give us pleasure, that extend the body into that space, and that elongate our perceptional way of interacting with the world.
我认为我们在文化上寻找，我们总是在我们的环境中寻找那些能给我们带来快乐的食物，将身体延伸到那个空间，并延长我们与世界互动的感知方式。
When someone talks about three-year-old tabuko, it’s not that it’s that expensive.
当有人谈论三岁的禁忌时，并不是说它有那么贵。
It’s that complex, and that’s interesting, that it requires so much of you to actually perceive it.
它是如此复杂，而且很有趣，需要你付出很多努力才能真正理解它。
You are more alive; you are more there.
你更有活力；你更在那儿。
The ham is more there; that sense of presence is there.
那里的火腿比较多；存在感就在那里。
I think that’s what a great chef can do.
我认为这就是一个伟大的厨师所能做到的。
You can stimulate that sense of being there, and we’re losing that.
你可以激发那种身临其境的感觉，但我们正在失去这种感觉。
The virtual reality that’s happening: we’re losing our sense of being in presence.
正在发生的虚拟现实：我们正在失去存在感。
McARDLE: Korean tacos?
麦卡德尔：韩国炸玉米饼？
Korean tacos!
韩国炸玉米饼！
I know Roy, so that’s not fair; I know Roy personally .
我认识罗伊，所以这不公平；我个人认识罗伊。
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I know Roy personally.
我个人认识罗伊。
I think it’s a good example of what Roy calls authentic food.
我认为这是罗伊所说的正宗食物的一个很好的例子。
He grew up in LA; Roy Choi is Korean.
他在洛杉矶长大；崔罗伊是韩国人。
He is LA, which has a lot of Mexican food.
他是洛杉矶，那里有很多墨西哥菜。
In the sense of combining his own interior reality into a projection on that plate, to me is perfect food.
从将他自己的内心现实结合到盘子上的投影的意义上来说，对我来说是完美的食物。
What a chef should always be doing .
厨师应该一直做的事情。
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I’m not Mexican, and the reason that I created modern southwestern: I think it would be a lie for me to do a Mexican restaurant.
我不是墨西哥人，我创建现代西南风味的原因是：我认为如果我开一家墨西哥餐厅，那就是一个谎言。
Roberto Santibañez at Fonda, who is a good friend, and a partner of mine at a salsa company, is Mexican from Mexico City and does cook great Mexican food.
Fonda 的罗伯托·桑蒂巴涅斯 (Roberto Santibañez) 是我的好朋友，也是我在一家萨尔萨舞公司的合伙人，他是来自墨西哥城的墨西哥人，他做的墨西哥菜很棒。
I think that you can learn, but you should not co-opt an entire cultural identity.
我认为你可以学习，但你不应该选择整个文化身份。
I was at Chez Panisse and I didn’t want to cook like Alice Waters anymore so I was — there is nothing wrong with Chez Panisse, but it wasn’t my food, and I was always arguing about it sometimes.
我在潘尼斯之家，我不想再像爱丽丝·沃特斯那样做饭，所以我 —— 潘尼斯之家没有任何问题，但这不是我的食物，有时我总是为此争论。
The point is when a chef really understands the world and ingredients, and can bring that reality to his dining public.
关键是厨师真正了解世界和食材，并能将这种现实带给他的用餐大众。
That’s an amazing explosion of creativity, and emotion, and theatre.
这是创造力、情感和戏剧性的惊人爆发。
And it’s wonderful, right?
这很棒，对吧？
McARDLE: If you had to sum up your food; if you had to in a couple of sentences say, “This is what my food was and why I needed to go do my own thing.”
麦卡德尔：如果你必须总结一下你的食物；如果你必须用几句话说：“这就是我的食物，为什么我需要去做我自己的事情。”
Or is, hopefully.
或者是，希望如此。
McARDLE: Or is.
麦卡德尔：或者是。
No, no, no. I meant when you left Chez Panisse.
不，不，不。我是说当你离开潘尼斯之家的时候。
This is what .
这是什么。
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No, we all created the menus at Chez Panisse; it wasn’t Alice, even then, no. It was only because one of my advisors didn’t sign my thesis.
不，Chez Panisse 的菜单都是我们设计的；即使那样，那也不是爱丽丝，不是。这只是因为我的一位导师没有签署我的论文。
Anyway, I was supposed to be there for two weeks.
无论如何，我应该在那里待两周。
I think that my food is a personal exploration of my own exploration of the world, and I look at the world through my senses.
我认为我的食物是我自己对世界的探索的个人探索，我通过我的感官来看待世界。
Mostly through taste, sometimes smell; I’m not a bad nose.
主要通过味觉，有时通过嗅觉；我的鼻子不坏。
What I’m trying to do is understand not only the world we live in, but sometimes past cultures.
我想做的不仅是了解我们生活的世界，有时还要了解过去的文化。
I try to look at pre-Columbian weavings.
我尝试着观察前哥伦布时期的编织品。
I try to get a list of all the pre-Columbian foods and we see, for instance, at Central — which is a very famous restaurant in Lima today — that that complexity of these chuños and this and things that grow were probably used, and stimulate.
我试图列出所有前哥伦布时代食物的清单，例如，在 Central （今天利马非常有名的一家餐厅），我们看到这些 chuños 的复杂性以及这个和生长的东西可能被使用和刺激。
The problem is, do we actually have the palate to actually go back?
问题是，我们真的有回去的味觉吗？
Wouldn’t you like to live and .
难道你不想活下去吗？
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I don’t want to just see a Rembrandt painting, and I love Rembrandt.
我不想只看伦勃朗的画，我喜欢伦勃朗。
I want to actually go back and eat the food that he was eating, and the markets, and the cheeses, and the things that were done, because I want to try to understand where that painting came from.
我真的想回去吃他吃的食物、市场、奶酪以及所做的事情，因为我想尝试了解那幅画的来源。
Not only the psychology of the artist.
不仅仅是艺术家的心理。
When I read a cookbook, or I go to a restaurant, I’m trying to understand the person, or the place, or the culture.
当我读一本食谱，或者去一家餐馆时，我试图了解这个人、这个地方或文化。
McARDLE: Fast food.
麦卡德尔：快餐。
So —
所以——
The dark side.
黑暗的一面。
McARDLE: Well, but can it be done well?
McARDLE：嗯，但是能做得好吗？
It is done well.
做得很好。
I mean fast food is done well.
我的意思是快餐做得很好。
In Japan the places I go — I eat udon.
在日本我去的地方 —— 我吃乌冬面。
I walk in; it’s being made by hand; it costs two dollars.
我走进去；它是手工制作的；花费两美元。
I decide what I’m going to put on top and I can have a bowl.
我决定要在上面放什么，然后我就可以吃一碗了。
I’ve timed it; it’s 18 seconds.
我已经计时了； 18秒。
McDonald’s?
麦当劳？
It’s a lifetime!
这是一生！
Starbucks?
星巴克？
It’s 8.4 minutes.
8.4分钟。
It’s too long.
它太长了。
Takes too long.
耗时太长。
McARDLE: Robot chefs.
麦卡德尔：机器人厨师。
You’ve seen these machines now that they are going to have that are going to dice everything and you won’t need any human interaction at all.
你现在已经看到了这些机器，它们将把一切都切碎，而且你根本不需要任何人际互动。
What do you think of that?
你对此有何看法？
Would anybody notice?
有人会注意到吗？
I think that our model in the United States because of the real estate and economics of it is completely wrong.
我认为我们在美国的模式因为房地产和经济原因是完全错误的。
I think that a chef should open a restaurant at 10 seats; I think he should charge $100, and I think he should make $150, and he should not pay rent.
我认为一个厨师应该开一家有10个座位的餐厅；我认为他应该收取 100 美元，我认为他应该赚 150 美元，而且他不应该支付租金。
Or have labor, or have overhead, or costs.
或者有劳动力，或者有管理费用，或者成本。
I think fast food .
我认为快餐。
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I think that our model in the United States because of the real estate and economics of it is completely wrong.
我认为我们在美国的模式因为房地产和经济原因是完全错误的。
I think that a chef should open a restaurant at 10 seats; I think he should charge $100, and I think he should make $150, and he should not pay rent.
我认为一个厨师应该开一家有10个座位的餐厅；我认为他应该收取 100 美元，我认为他应该赚 150 美元，而且他不应该支付租金。
Or have labor, or have overhead, or costs.
或者有劳动力，或者有管理费用，或者成本。
What you should do is honor the tradition of respecting the individual.
你应该做的是尊重尊重个人的传统。
In Japan they have this policy of not first customer.
在日本，他们有这样的政策：不是第一位顾客。
There is a policy of not taking you because they don’t know how you are going to act; they don’t know who you are.
有一项政策是不带你走，因为他们不知道你会如何行动；他们不知道你是谁。
You’re eating with seven or eight other people as an ensemble.
你和其他七八个人一起吃饭。
You’re not completely separate, so the idea of reinstituting cultural and social space and bonds and honoring — the chef is here to put something down.
你们并不是完全分离的，所以重新建立文化和社会空间和纽带以及尊重厨师的想法是为了放下一些东西。
There is no waitress; there is no menu.
没有女服务员；没有菜单。
That’s a personal connection, that’s like your mother.
这是一种个人联系，就像你的母亲一样。
That point to me is that we have to go back to understanding that food is very part of our psychological sense of space, our body sense of space, our pleasurable sense of space, our own cultural identity.
对我来说，这一点是我们必须重新认识到食物是我们心理空间感、我们身体空间感、我们愉快的空间感和我们自己的文化认同的一部分。
If we let other people take over that by organic, or this, or labels, or price, then what we have done is given part of our lives up and I don’t know that we’re .
如果我们让其他人通过有机、这个、标签或价格来接管它，那么我们所做的就是我们生活的一部分，而我不知道我们是……。
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I’m just saying — there’s 300 noodle places in Kyoto.
我只是说 —— 京都有300家拉面店。
Nobody charges more than $10 or $12.
没有人收取超过 10 美元或 12 美元的费用。
They’re all really good, they’re all a little bit different, and guess who doesn’t do well?
他们都非常好，但都有点不同，猜猜谁做得不好？
Chains that charge $10 for noodles that they have to pay a high-end real estate, like Yoshinoya.
面条售价 10 美元的连锁店必须支付高端房地产的费用，比如吉野家。
There’s two of them in Kyoto.
京都有两个。
I’ve been going to Kyoto 50 years.
我去京都已有 50 年了。
I’ve never been; I’m never going to go.
我从来没有去过；我永远不会去。
There is no reason to go.
没有理由去。
Chains only exist when the local community doesn’t provide the same service.
只有当当地社区不提供相同的服务时，连锁店才会存在。
So in a street-food market it’s accessible: I can eat in Thailand a quail for 75 cents.
所以在街头食品市场上这是很容易买到的：我在泰国花 75 美分就能吃到一只鹌鹑。
That same quail in Washington, DC, and New York City will cost me like $18.95.
同样的鹌鹑在华盛顿特区和纽约市要花 18.95 美元。
Megan, Mark, thank you very much.
梅根、马克，非常感谢你们。