Margaret Atwood on Canada, Writing, and Invention (Ep. 65 - Live at Mason)
We’re very honored to have Margaret Atwood with us here tonight.
我们非常荣幸今晚有玛格丽特·阿特伍德和我们一起。
Just to be clear, this is the conversation with Margaret Atwood I want to have, not the one you want to have.
需要澄清的是，这是我想要与玛格丽特·阿特伍德进行的对话，而不是你想要的对话。
Just to start with some basic questions about Canada, which you’ve written on for decades — what defines the Canadian sense of humor?
首先从一些关于加拿大的基本问题开始，您已经写了几十年了 —— 什么定义了加拿大人的幽默感？
Wow.
哇。
What defines the Canadian sense of humor?
什么定义了加拿大人的幽默感？
I think it’s a bit Scottish.
我觉得这有点苏格兰风味。
How so?
为何如此？
Well, it’s kind of ironic.
嗯，这有点讽刺。
It depends on what part of Canada you’re in.
这取决于您位于加拿大的哪个地区。
I think the further west you go, the less of a sense of humor they have.
我觉得越往西走，他们的幽默感就越少。
But that’s just my own personal opinion.
但这只是我个人的看法。
My family’s from Nova Scotia, so that’s as far east as you can get.
我的家人来自新斯科舍省，所以那是你能到达的最东边的地方。
And they go in for deadpan lying.
他们喜欢面无表情地撒谎。
In 1974, you wrote, “The Canadian sense of humor was often obsessed with the issue of being provincial versus being cosmopolitan.”
1974 年，您写道：“加拿大人的幽默感常常沉迷于地方性与国际性的问题。”
Yeah.
是的。
You think that’s still true?
你认为这仍然是真的吗？
Depends again.
又要看情况。
You know, Canada’s really big.
你知道，加拿大真的很大。
In fact, there’s a song called “Canada’s Really Big.” You can find it on the internet.
事实上，有一首歌叫做“加拿大真的很大”。您可以在互联网上找到它。
It’s by a group called the Arrogant Worms.
这是由一个名为“傲慢蠕虫”的组织发起的。
That kind of sums up Canada right there for you.
这就是加拿大的概况。
The burden of the song is that all of these other countries have got all of these other things, but what Canada has is, it’s really big.
这首歌的负担是，所有其他国家都拥有所有这些其他东西，但加拿大拥有的是，它真的很大。
It is, in fact, very big.
事实上，它非常大。
Therefore, it’s very hard to say what is particularly Canadian.
因此，很难说什么是特别加拿大的。
It’s a bit like the US.
这有点像美国。
Which part of the US is the US?
美国的哪个部分是美国？
What is the most US thing —
最美国的东西是什么——
Maybe it’s Knoxville, Tennessee, right now.
也许现在是田纳西州的诺克斯维尔。
Right?
正确的？
The Southeast.
东南。
You think?
您认为？
But it used to be Cleveland, Ohio.
但它曾经是俄亥俄州克利夫兰。
Did it?
做到了吗？
Center of manufacturing.
制造中心。
When was that?
那是什么时候？
When was that?
那是什么时候？
If you look at where the baseball teams are, you see what the US —
如果你看看棒球队在哪里，你就会看到美国——
Is that what it is?
是这样吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
Okay, yeah.
好吧，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, well, we’re not able to do that in Canada because —
是的，好吧，我们在加拿大无法做到这一点，因为 -
You have one.
你有一个。
We have one, yeah.
我们有一个，是的。
Used to be two.
曾经是两个。
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
Well, things come and go.
好吧，事情来了又去。
We’ve got hockey, though.
不过，我们有曲棍球。
We have that.
我们有那个。
You can’t take that away from .
你无法将其剥夺。
.
。
.
。
Just a minute, now — you did.
等一下，现在 ——你做到了。
Yeah, so what is the most Canadian thing about Canada?
是的，那么加拿大最加拿大的东西是什么？
The most Canadian thing about Canada is that when they ran a contest that went “Finish this sentence.
加拿大最具加拿大特色的是，当他们举办一场比赛时，“完成这句话。
As American as apple pie.
就像苹果派一样美国。
As Canadian as blank,” the winning answer was “As Canadian as possible under the circumstances.”
与空白一样加拿大”，获胜的答案是“在这种情况下尽可能地加拿大”。
I think Canada these days is when you think things are going to go pear-shaped in the States — when you think they might — Canada is a beckoning refuge, as it has been in the past.
我认为现在的加拿大是当你认为美国的事情会变得梨形时 ——当你认为它们可能会发生时—— 加拿大是一个诱人的避难所，就像过去一样。
So I just want you to know, if things go too pear-shaped here, we have a lovely church basement waiting for you, and a nice hot cup of tea.
所以我只是想让你知道，如果这里的事情变得太糟糕，我们有一个可爱的教堂地下室等着你，还有一杯美味的热茶。
What is funny about Saskatchewan?
萨斯喀彻温省有什么好玩的？
What?
什么？
Why do Canadians read so much poetry?
为什么加拿大人读这么多诗歌？
Where are you getting these funny questions?
你从哪里得到这些有趣的问题？
Yes, Saskatchewan isn’t very funny.
是的，萨斯喀彻温省不太有趣。
And Canadians used to read a lot of poetry because we didn’t have a viable novel-publishing business, or a film industry, or a music industry.
加拿大人过去常常读很多诗歌，因为我们没有可行的小说出版业务、电影业或音乐产业。
But we’ve got all of those things now.
但我们现在已经拥有了所有这些东西。
So they’re reading less poetry.
所以他们读的诗歌越来越少。
In 1972, in your famous book, Survival, you wrote, “The Canadian way of death is death by accident.” Is this still true?
1972年，您在著名的《生存》一书中写道：“加拿大人的死亡方式是意外死亡。”这仍然是真的吗？
In fiction or in real life?
小说中还是现实生活中？
In real life.
在现实生活中。
I think it’s more likely to be true in Canada than it is in the States, where the US way of life is by gun violence.
我认为这种情况在加拿大比在美国更有可能发生，因为美国的生活方式是枪支暴力。
Whereas we tend to go in for falling into the lake.
而我们往往会因为掉进湖里而陷入困境。
Is survival still the central theme of Canadian literature?
生存仍然是加拿大文学的中心主题吗？
I think it’s the central theme of the entire planet.
我认为这是整个星球的中心主题。
I think we were just a bit ahead of our time.
我认为我们只是领先了一点。
So yeah, you want to know about it, which increasingly you will need to, come to us.
所以，是的，您想了解这一点，您将越来越需要，来找我们。
If we look back to the 19th century, the United States has Melville and Poe and Hawthorne.
如果我们回顾19世纪，美国有梅尔维尔、坡和霍桑。
The Canadian tradition seems to be slower to develop.
加拿大的传统似乎发展得较慢。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
That’s because Canada was slower to develop.
那是因为加拿大发展较慢。
So what you have in Canadian history is 1760, Quebec falls.
所以加拿大历史是1760年，魁北克陷落。
There it is, right there.
就在那里，就在那里。
And if that had not happened, there wouldn’t have been an American Revolution.
如果那没有发生，就不会有美国革命。
But Canada took quite a while to get a population that was far enough away from the frontier to bother itself with literature.
但加拿大花了相当长的时间才让远离边境的人们开始沉迷于文学。
Is it fair to say that Canada was founded in debt?
可以说加拿大是在债务中立国的吗？
It had high levels of debt.
它的债务水平很高。
The provinces unified to pay their debts.
各省统一偿还债务。
They wanted to take out more debt, build more railways.
他们想要偿还更多债务，修建更多铁路。
Oh, so you’re talking about 1867.
哦，原来你说的是 1867 年。
Sure.
当然。
Around that time, confederation happened, I think, for a couple of reasons, that being one of them.
大约在那个时候，联盟发生了，我认为，有几个原因，这就是其中之一。
But the other one was, there was quite a lot of pressure from incoming people south of the border.
但另一个是，来自边境以南的人涌入的压力相当大。
Too many of us.
我们太多人了。
They confederated partly just to keep from being annexed.
他们结盟的部分原因是为了避免被吞并。
You’re active on Twitter.
您在 Twitter 上很活跃。
Is Twitter good for literacy, on average?
平均而言，Twitter 是否有利于识字？
Okay, on average, you have to be able to read to do it.
好吧，平均而言，你必须能够阅读才能做到这一点。
So —
所以——
Quality of literacy.
识字质量。
Oh, that’s different.
哦，那是不同的。
By literacy, I mean just the ability to read.
我所说的识字能力只是指阅读的能力。
All of these things where you have to read something and then push a button, you actually have to be able to read to do that.
所有这些你必须阅读一些内容然后按下按钮的事情，你实际上必须能够阅读才能做到这一点。
So people are working around it in all kinds of ways, such as YouTube and what have you.
因此人们正在以各种方式解决这个问题，例如 YouTube 等。
But you still have to be able to go to the website and push something.
但你仍然必须能够访问该网站并推送某些内容。
Is it making North Americans better writers?
它会让北美人成为更好的作家吗？
Oh, I wouldn’t go that far at all.
哦，我根本不会走那么远。
But it’s made quite a few of them writers who probably weren’t writing much before they had the social media option.
但这让他们中的不少人成为了作家，他们在使用社交媒体之前可能并没有写太多东西。
You once wrote, “Gardening is not a rational act.” Would you care to elaborate?
您曾经写道：“园艺不是一种理性行为。”您愿意详细说明一下吗？
I think you’ve slipped over into the silly side.
我认为你已经陷入了愚蠢的一面。
Okay, it’s not a rational act.
好吧，这不是一个理性的行为。
Why did I say that?
我为什么这么说？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
When did I say that?
我什么时候这么说过了？
I don’t remember offhand.
我不记得了。
Well, you plant things, and you spend quite a lot of time doing it.
嗯，你种植一些东西，并且花很多时间来做。
Well, I did have a very successful garden once, but that was because I had a lot of excellent rotted cow manure, which was just close to hand.
嗯，我曾经有过一个非常成功的花园，但那是因为我有很多优质的腐烂的牛粪，而且就在手边。
So gardening is like anything else.
所以园艺就像其他事情一样。
If you want to succeed, read the instructions.
如果您想成功，请阅读说明。
You need sunlight, good soil, and water.
你需要阳光、良好的土壤和水。
Those are the things you need.
这些就是你需要的东西。
On writing
论写作
Now, as you know, you’ve written a work for the Future Library called Scribbler Moon, and it won’t be read by anyone else until 2114.
现在，如您所知，您已经为未来图书馆写了一部名为《Scribbler Moon》的作品，直到 2114 年才会被其他人阅读。
Correct?
对吗？
That’s correct.
这是正确的。
How did you write differently for the far-off future?
你对遥远的未来有何不同的写法？
I’m not allowed to tell you what I wrote.
我不被允许告诉你我写了什么。
No, you don’t have to tell us what, but how did you mentally approach the problem differently?
不，你不必告诉我们什么，但你是如何以不同的方式处理这个问题的？
Or did you just write what you would write for an audience today?
或者你只是写了今天要为观众写的内容？
No. No, I didn’t.
不，不，我没有。
But I can’t go into detail because when you sign up for this thing, one of the things you can’t do is tell what you’ve written.
但我不能详细说明，因为当你注册这个东西时，你不能做的事情之一就是告诉你写了什么。
The mandate was, “Make an artifact out of words, of any length, any kind of artifact, as long as it’s words, and two copies only.
任务是：“用文字制作一件神器，任何长度、任何种类的神器，只要是文字，而且只有两份。
Give it to the Future Library of Norway.
将其交给挪威未来图书馆。
They’ll save it up.”
他们会把它保存起来。”
They’re going to accumulate these things for a hundred years, and in 2114, they’re going to open the hundred boxes.
他们将积累这些东西一百年，并在 2114 年，他们将打开一百个盒子。
More pressure on people who put theirs in five years before.
对于五年前投入的人来说，压力更大。
No pressure on me.
对我没有压力。
I’m not going to be there, unless something very strange happens.
我不会去那里，除非发生非常奇怪的事情。
Then they’re going to cut enough trees from the forest that will have grown, we think, to make the paper to print the Future Library of Norway anthology.
然后他们将从森林中砍伐足够的树木，我们认为这些树木将会生长，以制造纸张来印刷挪威未来图书馆的选集。
It’s a beautiful project.
这是一个美丽的项目。
It’s very hopeful, and they’re inviting writers from all the way around the world.
这是非常有希望的，他们正在邀请来自世界各地的作家。
I think they’ve had a Turkish one.
我想他们有一个土耳其的。
They’ve had an Icelandic one.
他们有一个冰岛的。
And in the case of smaller languages, she’s putting a dictionary in that box, just in case.
对于较小的语言，她会在那个盒子里放一本字典，以防万一。
Doing it in reverse, let’s say you were writing for readers from 1890.
反过来说，假设您正在为 1890 年的读者写作。
How would you think about writing for them?
你会如何考虑为他们写作？
Impossible.
不可能的。
Why?
为什么？
Well, because I don’t live in 1890.
嗯，因为我不住在 1890 年。
But you’ve read plenty of Victorian fiction.
但你读过很多维多利亚时代的小说。
I have, yes.
我有，是的。
But that’s a different thing.
但那是另一回事。
Do you sometimes even think of yourself as a 19th century novelist?
有时您是否甚至认为自己是一位 19 世纪的小说家？
No-ooo.
不-哦。
No?
不？
No. You can write historical fiction, but it’s always going to be of the time in which you’re writing it because you don’t have a choice.
不。你可以写历史小说，但它总是在你写作的时间里，因为你别无选择。
Walter Scott’s Ivanhoe, although it’s about the Middle Ages, is a 19th-century novel.
沃尔特·斯科特的《艾芬豪》虽然讲述的是中世纪，但却是一部 19 世纪的小说。
I’m a big fan of your novel, Hag-Seed, which I believe is your latest.
我是你的小说《Hag-Seed》的忠实粉丝，我相信这是你的最新作品。
A few questions about that and Shakespeare: How sympathetic is Shakespeare to Caliban in The Tempest?
关于这一点和莎士比亚的几个问题：莎士比亚在《暴风雨》中对卡利班有多同情？
Shakespeare himself, when he was doing The Tempest, I think, saw Caliban as one of his comic figures.
我认为莎士比亚本人在创作《暴风雨》时，将卡利班视为他的喜剧人物之一。
But as always with Shakespeare, nothing is two-dimensional.
但正如莎士比亚一贯的那样，没有什么是二维的。
So The Tempest underwent a number of different metamorphoses in performance since Shakespeare.
因此，自莎士比亚以来，《暴风雨》在表演上经历了许多不同的转变。
We have The Tempest.
我们有《暴风雨》。
Then we have Oliver Cromwell.
然后我们有奥利弗·克伦威尔。
The theater gets shut down.
剧院被关闭。
The tradition is broken.
传统被打破了。
When the theaters come back, they can’t actually remember how these things were done.
当剧院回来时，他们实际上不记得这些事情是如何完成的。
So in the 18th century, The Tempest was an opera, and they added some people.
所以在18世纪，《暴风雨》是一部歌剧，他们增加了一些人物。
They added a person called Dorinda, who is Miranda’s sister, so that they could have an ensemble group of singers, obviously.
他们增加了一个叫多琳达（Dorinda）的人，她是米兰达（Miranda）的妹妹，这样他们显然就可以拥有一个歌手合奏团了。
Then they added another guy so that Dorinda would have somebody to marry.
然后他们又增加了一个人，这样多琳达就有了结婚对象。
Then they learned how to fly Ariel, and Ariel flew around.
然后他们学会了如何驾驶爱丽儿，爱丽儿飞来飞去。
Then when they tried to bring back the original Tempest, nobody liked it because they wanted the opera.
然后，当他们试图带回原来的《暴风雨》时，没有人喜欢它，因为他们想要这部歌剧。
They wanted Dorinda and the flying Ariel.
他们想要多琳达和会飞的爱丽儿。
In the 19th century, when Ariel was always played by a woman who flew around, Caliban became a romantic sort of Byronic hero, oddly enough.
在 19 世纪，爱丽儿总是由一个飞来飞去的女人扮演，而奇怪的是，卡利班却成了拜伦式的浪漫英雄。
Because by that time, people had caught up with slavery in the United States, and noble savages and other things like that that were of the 19th century.
因为那时候美国的人们已经赶上了奴隶制，高贵的野蛮人之类的东西都是19世纪的了。
And he has real charisma.
他有真正的魅力。
Well, it depends how he’s played.
好吧，这取决于他的表现。
It really depends, and I’ve seen, by this time, a lot of performances of The Tempest, including film ones.
这真的要看情况，到目前为止，我已经看过《暴风雨》的很多表演，包括电影表演。
One by Julie Taymor, in which Prospero is Prospera — she’s the duchess of Milan — has a pretty good Caliban.
朱莉·泰莫（Julie Taymor）的一本，其中普洛斯彼罗是普洛斯佩拉（Prospera）——她是米兰公爵夫人——有一个相当不错的卡利班（Caliban）。
But he has a lot of resonance.
但他却有很多共鸣。
He’s given the most poetic lines in the play, actually.
事实上，他给出了剧中最富有诗意的台词。
There’s a big question about him, which is, what happens to him at the end?
关于他有一个很大的问题，那就是他最后会发生什么？
We’re not told.
我们没有被告知。
It’s another of these open questions.
这是另一个悬而未决的问题。
We just don’t know.
我们只是不知道。
How sympathetic are you to Prospero?
你对普洛斯彼罗有多同情？
There’s a line in Hag-Seed: “He would seem to be the top jailer in this play.”
《Hag-Seed》中有一句台词：“他似乎是这部剧中的头号狱卒。”
Well, he is.
嗯，他是。
Do you like him?
你喜欢他吗？
Like or dislike, it kind of doesn’t matter.
喜欢或不喜欢，其实并不重要。
Whether I like or dislike him, I’m sympathetic to him in some ways.
无论我喜欢还是不喜欢他，我在某些方面都同情他。
But he says himself that he got himself into this.
但他自己说，他是自己卷入这件事的。
He was the duke.
他是公爵。
He didn’t do his dukely duties.
他没有履行他的公爵职责。
He didn’t behave in a duke-like way.
他的行为举止不像公爵。
He went off to study magic instead, and he let his brother usurp the kingdom.
他转而去学习魔法，并让他的兄弟篡夺了王国。
By doing so, of course, he threw his young child into danger and ended them up on this island.
当然，他这样做，把他年幼的孩子置于危险之中，最终让他们流落到这个岛上。
If you want to know why he wants to get off of it, look at the menus, which I did.
如果你想知道他为什么想摆脱它，请查看菜单，我就是这样做的。
I did a little foodie piece for a food magazine on what they were actually eating.
我为一本美食杂志做了一篇关于他们实际吃的东西的小美食文章。
It’s not fun.
这并不好玩。
As Leggs suggests in Hag-Seed, is there any chance that Prospero is Caliban’s dad?
正如莱格斯在《女巫种子》中所暗示的那样，普洛斯彼罗有可能是卡利班的父亲吗？
Think about it.
想一想。
Someone has to be, right?
总得有人吧？
Think about it.
想一想。
Somebody has to be his dad.
必须有人成为他的父亲。
So, if we’re not accepting the devil as being the progenitor of Caliban, who is?
那么，如果我们不承认魔鬼是卡利班的祖先，那么谁是呢？
I ask you.
我问你。
They’re both in the magic business.
他们都从事魔术行业。
Why would they have not met up at a convention?
为什么他们没有在大会上见面？
Sort of a one-night stand producing Caliban.
有点像生产卡利班的一夜情。
Do you think Shakespeare believed in ghosts?
你认为莎士比亚相信有鬼吗？
Did Shakespeare believe in ghosts?
莎士比亚相信有鬼吗？
We kind of don’t care.
我们有点不在乎。
Do you believe in ghosts?
你相信有鬼吗？
Okay, this is another question.
好吧，这是另一个问题。
I believe that people have the experience of ghosts.
我相信人都有鬼魂的经历。
But that’s different from saying that there are objectively ghosts that can be measured.
但这与说客观存在可以测量的鬼魂不同。
A lot of people have ghost experiences.
很多人都有过鬼经历。
It’s well attested.
这是有充分证明的。
But does that mean there is a thing out there?
但这是否意味着外面有东西？
Again, it kind of doesn’t matter.
再说一次，这并不重要。
This is people’s experience.
这是人们的经验。
So, in the world of Shakespeare, there are ghosts.
所以，在莎士比亚的世界里，是有鬼魂的。
And in the world of Margaret Atwood?
那么在玛格丽特·阿特伍德的世界里呢？
There are ghosts.
有鬼。
Yeah, there are ghosts.
是的，有鬼。
People have experiences of ghosts.
人们都有鬼的经历。
In the world of Tyler Cowen, I’m sorry to say, no ghosts.
我很遗憾地说，在泰勒·考恩的世界里，没有鬼魂。
But I bet you know people who have.
但我敢打赌你认识这样的人。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
This is Virginia.
这是弗吉尼亚州。
It’s full of them.
里面全是它们。
Handmaid’s Tale — is it an accident that you started it in West Berlin in, I think, 1984?
《使女的故事》——我认为你于 1984 年在西柏林开始创作它是一个偶然吗？
Wasn’t that corny?
这不是老生常谈吗？
It was very corny, but I couldn’t avoid it.
这很老套，但我无法避免。
If I had been able to do it in some other year, I would have because, inevitably, this question comes up.
如果我能在其他年份做到这一点，我就会这么做，因为不可避免地会出现这个问题。
But I just happened to be in West Berlin.
但我恰好在西柏林。
I didn’t go there on purpose to do that.
我不是故意去那里这样做的。
But there I was, and how handy it was because it was the wall all around.
但我就在那里，它是多么方便，因为周围都是墙。
And being Canadian, I could go into places like East Germany and Czechoslovakia and Poland easier than German nationals could.
作为加拿大人，我可以比德国公民更容易地进入东德、捷克斯洛伐克和波兰等地。
So I did.
所以我做到了。
You had had a prior trip to Afghanistan.
您之前曾去过阿富汗。
Did that influence the book at all?
这对这本书有影响吗？
A bit, yeah.
有一点，是的。
I was lucky enough to see Afghanistan six weeks before the present unpleasantness started.
我很幸运能在目前的不愉快开始前六周看到阿富汗。
Six weeks before they assassinated Daoud.
六周前，他们刺杀了达乌德。
It was clear, and it always has been a crossroads, and it’s always been desirable.
很明显，它一直是一个十字路口，而且一直是令人向往的。
It’s always been desired by China, by Russia, and by anybody else in the vicinity because things went through it.
中国、俄罗斯和周边国家一直都渴望它，因为事情经历了它。
At the time we were there, there was a great big Chinese embassy.
我们当时在那里有一个很大的中国大使馆。
There was a great big USSR embassy.
有一个很大的苏联大使馆。
And there was a great big American embassy.
还有一个很大的美国大使馆。
Daoud was doing quite well by playing them off against each other and getting stuff out of them.
达乌德在与他们的较量中表现得非常好，并从他们身上得到了一些东西。
They should have stuck with him.
他们应该和他在一起。
But it’s been chaos ever since.
但从那以后一直很混乱。
I saw it at the last minute before a lot of things just got blown up.
我在最后一刻看到了它，然后很多事情都被炸毁了。
Did reading the Book of Genesis serve as an actual influence on Handmaid’s Tale?
阅读《创世记》对《使女的故事》有实际影响吗？
Or it’s just a connection you noticed later?
或者这只是您后来注意到的联系？
Oh, no, it’s right there in the epigraph.
哦，不，就在题词里。
So the question to you is, if you’re going to take the Bible literally, how literally would you like to take it?
所以你的问题是，如果你要按字面意思理解圣经，你愿意如何按字面意思理解它？
Is it the Jacob version of this story or the Abraham-Sarah-Hagar version of the story that grabbed you?
是这个故事的雅各版本还是亚伯拉罕-撒拉-夏甲版本的故事吸引了你？
Usually you mention the Jacob version of the story.
通常你会提到雅各布版本的故事。
Yeah.
是的。
There’s the second one.
还有第二个。
Why?
为什么？
Because it’s got more people in it.
因为里面的人比较多。
But the first version has a happy ending, right?
但第一个版本有一个美好的结局，对吧？
You get Isaac, you get Ishmael.
你得到以撒，你得到以实玛利。
They each found tribes.
他们各自建立了部落。
Why would I write a book with a happy ending?
我为什么要写一本有美好结局的书？
Yeah, it’s not such a happy ending.
是的，这不是一个幸福的结局。
It’s a very ambivalent ending, I would say.
我想说，这是一个非常矛盾的结局。
Abraham is a very dicey character in the Bible.
亚伯拉罕在圣经中是一个非常危险的人物。
But there’s a wonderful book called God: A Biography, which is by Jack —
但是有一本很棒的书，名叫《上帝：传记》，作者是杰克——
The Miles book, yeah.
迈尔斯的书，是的。
Yeah, it’s a wonderful book.
是的，这是一本很棒的书。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
It’s got the best exploration of the Book of Job that I’ve ever read.
这是我读过的对约伯记最好的探索。
I think it’s brilliant.
我认为这很棒。
But remember where my roots are.
但请记住我的根在哪里。
I’m Canadian.
我是加拿大人。
We took the Bible in school.
我们在学校里学习了《圣经》。
There wasn’t any separation of church and state.
教会和国家没有任何分离。
Then I went to college and studied with Northrop Frye.
然后我上了大学，师从诺斯罗普·弗莱（Northrop Frye）。
Then I went to Harvard and studied with Perry Miller.
然后我去了哈佛，师从佩里·米勒（Perry Miller）。
And for all those people, you had to know the Bible.
对于所有这些人来说，你必须了解圣经。
It might also interest you to know that I won from my Sunday school the prize for the best temperance essay, why you shouldn’t drink.
您可能还想知道我在主日学校获得了最佳节制论文奖，《为什么你不应该喝酒》。
Would you like to know why?
你想知道为什么吗？
Why?
为什么？
I think I know why.
我想我知道为什么。
But please, tell us.
但请告诉我们。
It’s a Canadian reason.
这是加拿大的原因。
If you drink and then go out into the cold, all of your blood is going to be in your capillaries.
如果你喝了酒然后出去寒冷，你所有的血液都会进入你的毛细血管。
You will freeze to death.
你会冻死的。
That argument doesn’t work in Russia, somehow.
不知何故，这种说法在俄罗斯行不通。
There’s a very interesting little piece to that puzzle, which was that Peter the Great discovered that he could tax the consumption of alcohol.
这个谜题中有一个非常有趣的小部分，那就是彼得大帝发现他可以对酒精消费征税。
This is for economists.
这是经济学家的事。
It’s in a book called The History of Alcohol.
这是一本叫做《酒精的历史》的书。
He discovered that he could tax it, and then he made it unpatriotic not to drink.
他发现他可以对酒征税，然后他把不喝酒视为不爱国。
He made it a crime to agitate against drinking because he was making so much money from it.
他将煽动反对饮酒定为犯罪，因为他从中赚了很多钱。
Did you know that?
你知道吗？
No.
不。
What are the aspects of conservative religious communities that you admire?
您欣赏保守宗教团体的哪些方面？
They’re very stable.
他们非常稳定。
Are they stable?
他们稳定吗？
For a while.
一阵子。
For a while.
一阵子。
Yeah.
是的。
It’s kind of a law of nature that nothing’s stable forever.
这是一种自然法则，没有什么是永远稳定的。
Do you think Canada will ever become much more religious again?
您认为加拿大会再次变得更加宗教化吗？
No.
不。
Or secularization is a one-way street?
或者世俗化是一条单行道？
I don’t know whether it’s a one-way street, but Canada is very big.
我不知道这是不是单行道，但加拿大很大。
It is and it isn’t, though.
但它是，但也不是。
There’s a certain concentration .
有一定的浓度。
.
。
.
。
It has a lot of different populations in it, which is why, when — people said when I published The Handmaid’s Tale in .
它有很多不同的人口，这就是为什么当我在 出版《使女的故事》时，人们说。
.
。
.
。
when was that?
那是什么时候？
1985.
1985年。
The British reviewed it by saying, “Jolly good yarn,” because they’d had their religious civil war, and they weren’t going to have another one.
英国人评论道，“真是好故事”，因为他们已经经历过宗教内战，不会再有另一场了。
They’re having a different kind of civil war right now, but it’s not a religious one.
他们现在正在进行一场不同类型的内战，但这不是一场宗教内战。
The Canadians said, in their nervous way, “Could it happen here?” And the Americans said, “How long have we got?” In fact, they spray-painted on the Venice Wall in California, “The Handmaid’s Tale is already here.” And that was in 1985.
加拿大人紧张地说：“这会发生在这里吗？”美国人说：“我们还有多久？”事实上，他们在加利福尼亚州的威尼斯墙上喷漆了“使女的故事已经在这里”。那是在 1985 年。
So, Canada is just too .
所以，加拿大也是如此。
.
。
.
。
There’s too many different groups to probably provide the 35 percent that you need to get a really good totalitarianism going.
有太多不同的团体可能无法提供让极权主义真正良好运转所需的 35%。
Someone argued that women are gaining cultural power all the time in virtually all countries.
有人认为，几乎所有国家的女性都在不断获得文化权力。
Even Ireland has legalized abortion.
甚至爱尔兰也将堕胎合法化。
Is this fear a fear which belongs purely to the past?
这种恐惧是纯粹属于过去的恐惧吗？
No.
不。
What’s the trend today that worries you, then, given what appear to be many trends in the opposite direction?
那么，鉴于似乎有许多相反方向的趋势，今天的趋势是什么让您担心呢？
Everything’s joined at the hip, as you know, being an economist.
正如你所知，作为一名经济学家，一切都是紧密相连的。
My fear at the moment is essentially climate change driving droughts, floods, making places uninhabitable.
我目前担心的主要是气候变化导致干旱、洪水，使地方无法居住。
When those things happen, you always get wars of one kind or another.
当这些事情发生时，总会发生这样或那样的战争。
And when you get wars, they’re always bad for women.
当发生战争时，它们总是对女性不利。
I’m not alone in having this particular fear.
我并不是唯一一个有这种特殊恐惧的人。
The other thing that’s going on .
另一件事正在发生。
.
。
.
。
I don’t know whether you caught it, but there was a big article on the aging of populations.
不知道你有没有发现，有一篇关于人口老龄化的大文章。
When you get aging in populations, you’re going to get a top-heavy population, not enough young people to support it, and a lot of pressure on younger women to have more children.
当人口老龄化时，就会出现人口头重脚轻、没有足够的年轻人来支撑的情况，以及年轻女性生育更多孩子的巨大压力。
It’s now the case, as you know, that in a city such as Toronto, more than half the population, I believe, is foreign born.
如您所知，现在的情况是，在像多伦多这样的城市，我相信超过一半的人口是在外国出生的。
That’s true.
这是真的。
Does it feel to you that somehow Canada is gone?
你有没有觉得加拿大已经消失了？
Or this is the new Canada?
或者这就是新的加拿大？
This is the new Canada.
这就是新的加拿大。
This is the new Canada.
这就是新的加拿大。
But it’s the old Canada, too, because Canada’s really big.
但这也是旧加拿大，因为加拿大真的很大。
And it’s always been very culturally diverse, if you go back and look at the history.
如果你回顾历史的话，它的文化一直非常多元化。
Before Europeans, there were numerous different indigenous cultural groups in Canada.
在欧洲人到来之前，加拿大就有许多不同的土著文化群体。
When we say “a country,” basically it’s just lines somebody drew on a map.
当我们说“一个国家”时，基本上它只是有人在地图上画的线。
But to get the deep history of a place, you’re looking at populations.
但要了解一个地方的深厚历史，你需要关注人口。
Who was there?
谁在那里？
What were they like?
他们是什么样的人？
What did they do?
他们做了什么？
And what kind of language did they speak?
他们说的是什么语言？
But you’ve spoken out in favor of the cultural exception being part of the NAFTA treaty that protects Canadian cultural industries.
但您公开表示支持将文化例外纳入北美自由贸易协定条约中，以保护加拿大文化产业。
Is it strange to think that having more than half the population being foreign born is not a threat to Canadian culture, but that being able to buy a copy of the New York Times in Canada is a threat?
超过一半的人口在外国出生并不是对加拿大文化的威胁，但在加拿大能够买到一份《纽约时报》却是一种威胁，这是否很奇怪？
Okay, by Canadian culture, all we mean is controlling the means of production.
好吧，通过加拿大文化，我们的意思就是控制生产资料。
That’s it.
就是这样。
It’s not saying things about content.
它并不是在谈论内容。
It’s saying things about who gets to say what we’re going to publish, etc.
它规定了谁有权发表我们将要发布的内容等。
So the worry is that Canadian newspapers would go away.
因此，人们担心加拿大报纸会消失。
They’re going away.
他们要走了。
Going away anyway.
无论如何都要离开。
So are yours.
你的也是。
COWEN: That’s true.
考恩：确实如此。
Yeah, so the newspaper is a form, but book publishing actually is where we entered this story, and we entered it in the ’60s when there were very few publishing outlets for Canadian writers.
是的，报纸是一种形式，但图书出版实际上是我们进入这个故事的地方，我们进入这个故事是在 60 年代，当时加拿大作家的出版渠道很少。
People routinely told you, “If you want to be a writer, leave the country.”
人们经常告诉你，“如果你想成为一名作家，就离开这个国家。”
So, our generation did things like forming publishing companies and starting the writers’ union, one of the activities of which was to stop the illegal import of overruns of our own books that were coming into the country and being sold as remainder copies.
因此，我们这一代人做了一些事情，比如成立出版公司和成立作家联盟，其中一项活动就是阻止非法进口超量的我们自己的书籍，这些书籍进入该国并作为剩余副本出售。
That kind of basic economic stuff was what we were interested in, not in controlling what people were saying.
我们感兴趣的是这种基本的经济问题，而不是控制人们的言论。
About 30 years ago, you were a major defender of Salman Rushdie and the whole fatwa affair.
大约 30 年前，您是萨尔曼·拉什迪和整个追杀令事件的主要捍卫者。
Do you think that today — 30 years later — Western governments would have spoken up as much as they did back then to defend Rushdie?
您认为今天 —— 30年后 —— 西方政府会像当时那样大声疾呼捍卫拉什迪吗？
Oh, who knows what they would do?
哦，谁知道他们会做什么？
But it’s a very different world.
但这是一个非常不同的世界。
How would it play out now?
现在情况会如何呢？
Well, I think people are just scared.
嗯，我认为人们只是害怕。
We were in PEN at that time — PEN Canada — and my partner, Graham Gibson, was the head of it.
当时我们是笔会 ——加拿大笔会——我的搭档格雷厄姆·吉布森（Graham Gibson）是该笔会的负责人。
He was the only person speaking out publicly, the only one.
他是唯一一个公开发言的人，也是唯一一个。
Governments, churches, unions, they were all saying to him privately, “You’re doing a great job.”
政府、教会、工会，他们都私下对他说：“你做得很好。”
But they weren’t saying anything because they were frightened.
但他们什么也没说，因为他们害怕了。
This was an unprecedented sort of thing.
这是前所未有的事情。
The Norwegian publisher got shot, the Japanese translator got shot and killed.
挪威出版商被枪杀，日本翻译被枪杀。
I was down here running in and out of radio stations with people saying, “There’s your car.” But Seattle was good.
我在广播电台里跑进跑出，人们说：“这是你的车。”但西雅图还是不错的。
Seattle kept its bookstore open.
西雅图的书店保持营业。
Do you think the Western commitment to free speech is waning?
您认为西方对言论自由的承诺正在减弱吗？
Yes.
是的。
And why has that happened?
为什么会发生这种情况？
Well, you know, people eat their own.
嗯，你知道，人们吃自己的东西。
I think there’s a lot of conversations going on right now amongst people who have forgotten the ’40s.
我认为现在人们之间正在进行很多对话，他们已经忘记了 40 年代。
You know?
你知道？
Sure.
当然。
They’ve forgotten the ’40s.
他们已经忘记了 40 年代。
They’ve forgotten Hitler, they’ve forgotten Stalin, they’ve forgotten purges, they’ve forgotten censorship, they’ve forgotten book burnings, they’ve forgotten all those things.
他们忘记了希特勒，他们忘记了斯大林，他们忘记了清洗，他们忘记了审查制度，他们忘记了焚烧书籍，他们忘记了所有这些事情。
These kinds of shutting down of people are always done with great flags of virtue flying overhead.
这种对人的封锁总是伴随着美德的旗帜在头顶飘扬。
But of course, Stalin and Hitler did the same thing.
当然，斯大林和希特勒也做了同样的事情。
Both of those societies were proposed as utopias.
这两个社会都被提议为乌托邦。
People were told by both of these outfits — including Mussolini will make it three — that things were just going to get better for people under them.
这两个组织告诉人们——“包括墨索里尼将使其成为第三个”——在他们的领导下，事情只会变得更好。
But first, we had to purify things by getting rid of entartete art, and getting rid of bad books, and getting rid of people that weren’t desirable.
但首先，我们必须净化一切，摆脱那些曲折的艺术，摆脱坏书，摆脱那些不受欢迎的人。
That whole kind of scenario — people have forgotten about it.
整个场景 —— 人们已经忘记了它。
Have we read recently the book — I think it’s called Hitler and Hollywood.
我们最近读过这本书吗 —— 我想这本书的名字叫《希特勒与好莱坞》。
There was an active group of Nazis in Hollywood, and they had a plan to kidnap 23 media moguls and hang them in a park.
好莱坞有一群活跃的纳粹分子，他们计划绑架23名媒体大亨，并将他们吊死在公园里。
That was in the ’30s.
那是在20世纪30年代。
We’ve forgotten all of that.
我们已经忘记了这一切。
We’ve forgotten what that kind of thing looks like.
我们已经忘记了那种东西是什么样子的。
So the message is, if you go in for censorship and shutting people down, the next person that’s going to happen to will be you.
所以传达的信息是，如果你进行审查并封锁人们的信息，那么下一个遭遇的人就是你。
If you go in for censorship and shutting people down, the next person that’s going to happen to will be you.
如果你进行审查并封锁人们的信息，那么下一个遭殃的人就是你。
Almost two years ago, you wrote that you were not, in every way, considered an entirely proper feminist.
大约两年前，你写道，你在各方面都不被认为是一个完全正确的女权主义者。
I’m not.
我不是。
What did you mean by that?
你这是什么意思？
I never have been.
我从来没有去过。
What’s your greatest heresy?
你最大的异端是什么？
Oh, they’re many.
哦，他们很多。
They’re many and numerous.
他们数量众多。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
If you look on the internet and put “kinds of feminism,” there are now about 75 different ones.
如果你在互联网上查找“女权主义的种类”，现在大约有 75 种不同的女权主义。
So if somebody asks you if you’re a feminist, you really have to say — same as they ask if you’re a Christian — you have to say, “What kind?” Are we talking the pope?
因此，如果有人问你是否是女权主义者，你真的必须说“就像他们问你是否是基督徒一样”，你必须说“哪种？”我们在谈论教皇吗？
Are we talking snakes?
我们在说蛇吗？
Well, there are snakes.
嗯，有蛇。
You know?
你知道？
Are we talking Mormons?
我们说的是摩门教徒吗？
What is the category?
类别是什么？
So similarly with feminist — what kind?
与女权主义者类似——什么样的女权主义者？
Answer that, and I’ll tell you if I am one.
回答这个问题，我会告诉你我是否是其中之一。
What was the very first business you ran?
您经营的第一家企业是什么？
My very first business I ran, I think, was selling blueberries for five cents a pop, not per blueberry —
我认为，我经营的第一笔生意是以每颗五美分的价格出售蓝莓，而不是每个蓝莓 -
Yes.
是的。
— but for the little container of them.
——但是对于它们的小容器来说。
It was quite stupid because I was seven, and there were lots of blueberries that people could just go and pick.
这很愚蠢，因为我七岁了，那里有很多蓝莓，人们可以直接去采摘。
But nonetheless, that was one of my first businesses.
但尽管如此，这是我最早的生意之一。
But my first real business that we actually made a profit out of was in high school.
但我真正从中获利的第一个真正的生意是在高中的时候。
For that business, I had a partner, and we ran kids’ birthday parties.
对于这项业务，我有一个合作伙伴，我们为孩子们举办生日聚会。
We didn’t charge enough.
我们收费不够。
We did everything.
我们做了一切。
We did the welcoming, we did the present unwrapping, we did wiping the tears, we did the sandwiches, and then we put on a puppet show.
我们做了欢迎仪式，我们拆了礼物，我们擦了眼泪，我们做了三明治，然后我们上演了木偶戏。
The moms loved us because they were out in the kitchen drinking gin while we were doing all of this.
妈妈们很爱我们，因为当我们做这一切的时候，她们在厨房里喝着杜松子酒。
We got so good at it, we got an agent.
我们太擅长了，所以我们有了一个经纪人。
We were doing company Christmas parties with the puppet show.
我们正在举办公司圣诞派对并观看木偶戏。
All of this in high school?
这一切都是在高中吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And your second business was what?
你的第二项业务是什么？
My second business was a silkscreen poster business, which came just before offset printing and other forms of cheap reproduction.
我的第二项业务是丝网印刷海报业务，它出现在胶印和其他形式的廉价复制品之前。
You know what silkscreens are?
你知道什么是丝网印刷吗？
Sure.
当然。
You do?
你做？
Sure.
当然。
We all know?
我们都知道吗？
Okay.
好的。
You have a big screen, and you squidge everything through it.
你有一个大屏幕，你可以通过它来显示所有内容。
Andy Warhol, yeah.
安迪·沃霍尔，是的。
Yeah, you have to do one color at a time.
是的，你必须一次只做一种颜色。
I used to do that on the ping-pong table.
我曾经在乒乓球桌上这样做过。
Now, we’re going to have the middle segment here.
现在，我们将在这里进行中间部分。
I’ll toss out the names of some authors or books, and you tell us what makes them special to you.
我会抛出一些作者或书籍的名字，然后你告诉我们它们对你来说有何特别之处。
Or if you don’t like them, that’s fine.
或者，如果您不喜欢它们，也没关系。
What if I like them but they’re not particularly special?
如果我喜欢它们但它们不是特别特别怎么办？
Is that a category?
这是一个类别吗？
Lewis Hyde, The Gift.
刘易斯·海德，《礼物》。
Oh, I love that book.
哦，我喜欢那本书。
See?
看？
Yes.
是的。
Why?
为什么？
Why?
为什么？
Because it’s the only book I ever recommend to writing students, but it’s not about how to write.
因为这是我向写作学生推荐的唯一一本书，但它不是关于如何写作的。
It’s about what are you doing?
这是关于你在做什么？
What is this writing?
这写的是什么？
And what is art?
什么是艺术？
He makes a distinction .
他做出了区分。
.
。
.
。
You probably like this book, too, because it’s got some economics in it.
您可能也喜欢这本书，因为其中有一些经济学内容。
Money, reciprocal exchange.
金钱，相互交换。
Plenty, yes.
很多，是的。
He makes a distinction between things that are gifts, which operate in a different way from things that are just commodities.
他对礼物进行了区分，礼物的运作方式与商品不同。
Books are a very curious thing because they originate — if they’re not just formula books — they originate in the gift sphere.
书籍是一件非常奇怪的东西，因为它们起源于——如果它们不仅仅是公式书——它们起源于礼品领域。
Then they have to pass through the valley of the shadow of the commodity before they get back in the hands of somebody who loves them, at which point they turn back into a gift.
然后，它们必须穿过商品阴影的深谷，才能回到爱它们的人手中，此时它们又变回了礼物。
It’s very instructive for young artists of any kind to read this book because it gives them a fix on what they’re doing.
对于任何类型的年轻艺术家来说，阅读这本书都非常有启发性，因为它让他们对自己正在做的事情有所了解。
and also on their relationship to money, because if you live in a society where most things are judged by money, you can really struggle with being an artist and how your art gets evaluated and rewarded.
还有它们与金钱的关系，因为如果你生活在一个大多数事情都以金钱来评判的社会中，你真的会为成为一名艺术家以及你的艺术如何得到评估和奖励而挣扎。
H.
H.
G.
G。
Wells, Island of Doctor Moreau.
威尔斯，莫罗博士岛。
Yes, well, I read all of Wells in high school because we had the collected volume, and it was in the cellar where I did my homework.
是的，嗯，我在高中时读过威尔斯的全部著作，因为我们有全集，而且我在地窖里做作业。
Oh, tempting.
哦，很诱人。
It was so tempting to read Wells instead of doing my homework, which of course I did.
读威尔斯著作而不是做作业真是太诱人了，我当然做了。
But some of it’s terrible, right?
但有些很可怕，对吧？
Some of Wells is terrible, but Moreau is quite interesting as a book.
威尔斯的有些内容很糟糕，但莫罗作为一本书相当有趣。
He wrote his early works of genius in a very short period of time, this very condensed period.
他在很短的时间内、在这段非常浓缩的时间内写出了他早期的天才作品。
He wrote The Time Machine, and then he wrote Moreau, and then he wrote War of the Worlds in a very compact period.
他写了《时间机器》，然后写了《莫罗》，然后在一个非常紧凑的时期写了《世界大战》。
Chinese science fiction — do you read it?
中国科幻 — 你读过吗？
No, not yet.
不，还没有。
But I’m told there is —
但我听说有——
I did.
我做到了。
The Three-Body Problem is wonderful.
《三体》太精彩了。
I read this huge volume of Chinese historical fantasy, which is, I think, the Condor Warrior series, which is very intricate and has to do with Genghis Khan and the Han Dynasty and various things like that, with some magic as well, and a lot of martial arts.
我读过这本厚厚的中国历史奇幻作品，我认为是神雕侠侣系列，非常复杂，与成吉思汗和汉朝以及类似的事情有关，还有一些魔法，还有很多武术。
Young adult novels — do they have lasting aesthetic value?
青少年小说 —— 它们有持久的审美价值吗？
Or are they just fun?
或者他们只是为了好玩？
Oh, some do and some don’t.
哦，有的有，有的没有。
It’s like anything else.
就像其他任何事情一样。
You’ve got good ones of any kind of book, and ones that are not so good, including literary fiction.
任何类型的书都有好书，也有不太好的书，包括文学小说。
Not all literary fiction is good just because it’s literary fiction.
并不是所有的文学小说都因为它是文学小说而好。
The Charles Laughton movie Night of the Hunter.
查尔斯·劳顿的电影《猎人之夜》。
Love that.
喜欢那个。
Why?
为什么？
Why?
为什么？
It’s not Canadian.
这不是加拿大的。
It takes place in a small country.
它发生在一个小国家。
ATWOOD: That doesn’t matter.
阿特伍德：那没关系。
I’m very universal in my interests.
我的兴趣非常广泛。
I think I saw it when it first came out in the ’50s.
我想我是在 50 年代它第一次问世时就看到的。
It got overlooked.
它被忽视了。
It didn’t get accorded the attention that it should have because it came in the same year as the Blackboard Jungle, and I think around the same time — what was it?
它没有得到应有的关注，因为它与黑板丛林在同一年出现，我想大约在同一时间 - 它是什么？
An early Marlon Brando movie.
马龙·白兰度早期的电影。
There’s a period of black and white film in the ’50s that’s actually pretty interesting, and that movie is one of them.
五十年代有一段时期的黑白电影实际上非常有趣，那部电影就是其中之一。
I would say it’s Mitchum’s best role.
我想说这是米彻姆最好的角色。
Star Wars — is it interesting?
星球大战 — 有趣吗？
It is to me, but the early ones rather than the later kind of desperate spin-offs.
对我来说，不过是早期的，而不是后来那种绝望的衍生品。
Why is birding interesting?
为什么观鸟很有趣？
Let’s talk about The Wizard of Oz.
我们来谈谈《绿野仙踪》。
Sure.
当然。
Now, there’s an absolutely core to the American psyche —
现在，美国人的心理有一个绝对的核心——
It’s an economics movie.
这是一部经济电影。
It’s about bimetallism, right?
这是关于复本位制的，对吧？
The yellow brick road is about the gold standard?
黄砖路大约是金本位？
This is not commonly known, but it’s true.
这并不为人所知，但却是事实。
It’s a monetary allegory, the whole movie.
整部电影都是一个金钱寓言。
You think so?
你这么认为吗？
I know so.
我知道是这样。
You know a lot of things.
你知道很多事情。
So, the Tin Woodman is what in it?
那么，铁皮樵夫到底是什么呢？
He’s one of the people in the bimetallist debates.
他是双本位制辩论中的人物之一。
But there was a Journal of Political Economy article going through all of the parallels.
但《政治经济学杂志》上有一篇文章阐述了所有相似之处。
And Dorothy is what?
而多萝西又是什么？
I think just the innocent American crying for relief.
我认为只是无辜的美国人在哭泣寻求解脱。
Are you buying any of this?
你买这个吗？
I’m not.
我不是。
And the tornado is?
龙卷风是？
Maybe depression, deflation.
也许是抑郁、通货紧缩。
And Toto is?
而托托呢？
That one I’m stumped on.
我被难住了。
The flying monkeys are?
会飞的猴子是？
William Jennings Bryan?
威廉·詹宁斯·布莱恩？
Okay.
好的。
Well, here’s the really interesting thing about Wizard of Oz.
嗯，这就是《绿野仙踪》真正有趣的地方。
In The Wizard of Oz, the male wizard is a fraud, and all of the other male characters are missing something.
在《绿野仙踪》中，男巫师是个骗子，所有其他男性角色都缺少一些东西。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
Yes.
是的。
But the witches are real.
但女巫是真实存在的。
Now, Tyler, I’m going to tell you a story.
现在，泰勒，我要给你讲一个故事。
One October, my next-door neighbor — his name is Sam — came out of his house, and he saw me sweeping my leaves with a broom.
十月的一年，我的隔壁邻居——他的名字叫萨姆——从他的房子里出来，他看到我用扫帚扫树叶。
And Sam said to me, “Margaret, you shouldn’t let people see you doing that.” And I said, “Sam, why ever not?” And he said, “It’s the broom.” And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “Don’t you know that people call you the wicked witch of the annex?” And I said, “Sam, fear inspires more respect than love.” And he said, “Margaret, you’re right.”
萨姆对我说：“玛格丽特，你不应该让人们看到你这样做。”我说：“山姆，为什么不呢？”他说：“这是扫帚。”我说：“你是什么意思？”他说道：“你难道不知道人们称你为别馆的邪恶女巫吗？”我说：“山姆，恐惧比爱更能激发尊重。”他说：“玛格丽特，你是对的。”
What do you like to watch on YouTube?
您喜欢在 YouTube 上观看什么？
Just so you don’t get too out of control, Tyler.
这样你就不会太失控，泰勒。
What do I like to watch on YouTube?
我喜欢在 YouTube 上观看什么？
Well, there’s been a little collection of Handmaid’s Tale artifacts, and one of them is a YouTube thing called “They Finally Made a Handmaid’s Tale for Men.” I recommend it.
嗯，有一些《使女的故事》文物，其中之一是 YouTube 上的一个名为“他们终于为男人制作了一个使女的故事”的东西。我推荐它。
It’s very funny.
这很有趣。
What’s the correct search term?
正确的搜索词是什么？
For it?
为了它？
For it.
为了它。
“They Finally Made a Handmaid’s — ”
“终于做出了使女的 —— ”
Okay.
好的。
Why is there so little populism — if that’s the right word — in Canada?
为什么加拿大的民粹主义如此之少——如果这个词正确的话？
It’s sweeping many other nations, including Australia.
它席卷了许多其他国家，包括澳大利亚。
But so far, not Canada very much.
但到目前为止，加拿大的情况还不太好。
I think it’s because of the Canadian sense of humor.
我认为这是因为加拿大人的幽默感。
We make fun of them.
我们取笑他们。
But our turn may come.
但也许轮到我们了。
We had a conservative government before you did.
在你们之前我们有一个保守派政府。
And you had a social credit movement in the ’30s, which had —
三十年代发生了一场社会信用运动，它——
Yeah, we had this guy called Wacky Bennett out in Vancouver.
是的，我们在温哥华有一个叫 Wacky Bennett 的人。
Yes, he was .
是的，他是。
.
。
.
。
What was that called?
那叫什么？
Some other strange thing.
还有一些奇怪的事情。
What would a Canadian populism look like?
加拿大的民粹主义会是什么样子？
Would it be funny?
会很有趣吗？
This is our problem, you see.
你看，这是我们的问题。
As I say, Canada’s really big, and it’s very diverse, so you can have a Quebec populism, and they have had quite a bit of that in the past.
正如我所说，加拿大幅员辽阔，而且非常多元化，所以你可以有魁北克民粹主义，他们过去也有过不少这样的民粹主义。
I don’t know what a Newfoundland populism would look like.
我不知道纽芬兰的民粹主义会是什么样子。
I’m not too sure.
我不太确定。
We sort of know what Alberta would because they had that for a while.
我们有点知道艾伯塔省会做什么，因为他们已经这样做了一段时间了。
In Ontario, we’ve got this one that purports to be that right now, but he keeps running up against a wall because he does something that’s not popular.
在安大略省，我们现在有一个声称是这样的人，但他总是碰壁，因为他做了一些不受欢迎的事情。
What do you think of Canada’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
您如何看待加拿大真相与和解委员会？
They’re working hard.
他们正在努力工作。
Are they succeeding?
他们成功了吗？
Well, there’s a lot to reconcile.
嗯，有很多事情需要协调。
Just for people that don’t know what that is, it’s indigenous First Nations in Canada, as in this country, except because you’ve done a lot more massacres than we had, you had fewer people left to be reconciled with.
对于那些不知道那是什么的人来说，它是加拿大的原住民，就像在这个国家一样，除了因为你们制造的屠杀比我们多得多，所以你们需要与之和解的人更少了。
So, reconciling incomers, which means everybody who isn’t indigenous, with indigenous communities that have been badly treated in really recent memory.
因此，要让收入者（这意味着每个非土著人）与在最近的记忆中受到虐待的土著社区达成和解。
Should there be bilingual education for indigenous communities in Canada?
加拿大土著社区是否应该进行双语教育？
Or should the goal be assimilation towards English or French?
或者目标应该是同化英语或法语？
I would be for bilingual or trilingual.
我会选择双语或三语。
If possible.
如果可能的话。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
These are very interesting languages, and any language is a different way of viewing the world.
这些都是非常有趣的语言，任何语言都是看待世界的不同方式。
If you only have one way of viewing the world, if you only have one language, only one way of viewing the world, you’re missing a lot of possible solutions and approaches that you otherwise would have.
如果你只有一种看待世界的方式，如果你只有一种语言，只有一种看待世界的方式，你就会错过很多可能的解决方案和方法。
Any language is a different way of viewing the world.
任何语言都是看待世界的不同方式。
If you only have one way of viewing the world, if you only have one language, you’re missing a lot of possible solutions and approaches that you otherwise would have.
如果您只有一种看待世界的方式，如果您只有一种语言，那么您就会错过许多可能的解决方案和方法。
Is there, at this point, a plausible scenario where Quebec leaves Canada?
目前是否有可能出现魁北克离开加拿大的情况？
Not at the moment.
目前还没有。
But the future?
但未来呢？
Or do you think it’s inevitable that there’ll be greater integration, more immigrants in Quebec?
或者您认为魁北克将不可避免地出现更大程度的融合、更多移民？
I think things will stay kind of the way they are.
我认为事情会保持原样。
But think about this very carefully, as people did when it was a distinct possibility.
但请仔细思考这一点，就像人们在这种可能性明显时所做的那样。
You have Quebec there.
那里有魁北克。
The people to the north of Quebec are not French-speaking Quebecers.
魁北克以北的人不是说法语的魁北克人。
They’re indigenous people.
他们是原住民。
And they said — and that’s where the hydroelectric power comes from, by the way — they said, “If you separate from Canada, we’re going to separate from you on the same grounds.
他们说——顺便说一下，这就是水力发电的来源——他们说，“如果你与加拿大分离，我们也会以同样的理由与你分离。
Different language, older culture, etc.”
不同的语言、古老的文化等等。”
And Quebec said, “Oh, no, you’re not.” And they said, “Oh, yes, we are.
魁北克说：“哦，不，你不是。”他们说：“哦，是的，我们是。
And by the way, we happen to have a treaty with Canada that says that if any foreign power invades us, they have to defend us.” So if Quebec separates, north of Quebec separates from Quebec, Quebec invades them, Canada invades.
顺便说一句，我们碰巧与加拿大签订了一项条约，规定如果任何外国势力入侵我们，他们必须保卫我们。”因此，如果魁北克分裂，魁北克北部与魁北克分裂，魁北克入侵他们，加拿大就会入侵。
You see what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
Sure.
当然。
Okay, so the other one was, Quebec separates and makes a military alliance with France, a nuclear power.
好吧，另一个是，魁北克与核国家法国分离并建立军事联盟。
How happy would the United States be about that?
美国对此会有多高兴呢？
Not entirely.
不完全是。
I would think not, and maybe that’s why they had plans for invasion of Canada at that time, should Quebec separate.
我认为不会，也许这就是为什么他们当时计划在魁北克分裂时入侵加拿大。
If you were to recommend to an American a Canada trip that he or she maybe hadn’t already done, something underappreciated, what would it be?
如果你向一个美国人推荐他或她可能还没有去过的加拿大之旅，或者没有被充分重视的事情，那会是什么？
Oh, something they hadn’t already done?
哦，他们还没有做过什么？
Odds are.
可能性是。
You mean not Toronto?
你的意思是不是多伦多？
Correct.
正确的。
Or Montreal.
或者蒙特利尔。
Not Toronto or Montreal.
不是多伦多或蒙特利尔。
Or Vancouver.
或者温哥华。
Okay, or Vancouver.
好吧，还是温哥华。
Well, there’s nothing like the Canadian Arctic.
好吧，没有什么比加拿大北极更好的了。
And what should people do there?
人们应该在那里做什么？
It will completely change your view of the planet.
它将彻底改变你对地球的看法。
You should go with a group called Adventure Canada, which is small, so you’re not going to be on a huge, enormous cruise ship.
你应该和一个叫“加拿大探险”的团体一起去，这个团体规模很小，所以你不会乘坐一艘巨大的游轮。
In fact, it won’t be called a cruise at all because it cannot be guaranteed that you’re actually going to go where they say you might.
事实上，它根本不会被称为游轮，因为它不能保证您实际上会去他们所说的地方。
You can get beset by the ice.
你可能会被冰雪困扰。
Is there Twitter up there?
上面有推特吗？
No. There’s not.
不，没有。
Not much, no. If you’re in a community, there is, but a lot of it, of course .
不多，没有。如果你在一个社区中，那就有，但当然很多。
.
。
.
。
as I say, Canada’s really big, and there’s a lot of geology.
正如我所说，加拿大幅员辽阔，地质资源丰富。
A lot.
很多。
Earlier in your career, why did you quit philosophy?
在您职业生涯的早期，您为何放弃哲学？
I quit philosophy because it was the age of logical positivism, and that wasn’t the part that I was interested in.
我退出哲学是因为那是逻辑实证主义的时代，而那不是我感兴趣的部分。
I was interested in ethics and aesthetics, which had been relegated to the subbasement at that time.
我对伦理学和美学感兴趣，当时这些都被降级到地下室。
They’ve since been disinterred, but at that time they were quite sneered upon.
后来他们被挖掘出来，但当时他们受到了很大的嘲笑。
I did not want to end up in logical positivism in my fourth year of philosophy.
我不想在哲学的第四年陷入逻辑实证主义。
And quitting was the way to get out of it.
放弃是摆脱困境的方法。
I didn’t exactly quit.
我并没有完全退出。
I moved over.
我搬过去了。
I moved sideways into honors English, but I kept philosophy as a major.
我转而学习荣誉英语，但我保留了哲学专业。
For a while, you had a faculty post at the University of Alberta.
有一段时间，您在阿尔伯塔大学担任教职。
If you had somehow stayed there, in that counterfactual, how would your writing have evolved differently?
如果你以某种方式留在那个反事实中，你的写作会有什么不同的演变？
Well, my more interesting one was at the University of British Columbia.
嗯，我更感兴趣的是在不列颠哥伦比亚大学。
Alberta was just a part timer.
艾伯塔省只是一名兼职人员。
It was quite small.
它很小。
But UBC — I was teaching grammar to engineering students at 8:30 in the morning in a quonset hut left over from World War II.
但 UBC —— 早上 8 点 30 分，我在二战遗留下来的方塞特小屋里给工程专业的学生教授语法。
That was fun.
那很有趣。
Was it good for your writing?
对你的写作有好处吗？
It was good for their writing.
这对他们的写作有好处。
But it was good because what I did was, I had them read Franz Kafka’s Parables and then write their own parables.
但这很好，因为我所做的是，我让他们读弗朗茨·卡夫卡的《寓言》，然后写他们自己的寓言。
Franz Kafka’s Parables are sort of problems.
弗朗茨·卡夫卡的寓言故事是有问题的。
They’re like engineering problems.
它们就像工程问题。
So they had a good time doing that, and anyway, none of us were awake at that time of the day in any case.
所以他们玩得很开心，而且无论如何，我们在一天中的那个时间都没有醒着。
Do you write every day?
你每天都写吗？
No.
不。
How do you decide on a given day whether or not you write?
你如何决定某一天是否写作？
Depends on what I’m doing.
取决于我在做什么。
Travel aside.
一边旅行。
No, no. If I’m in the middle of a project, I work at it every day.
不，不。如果我正在进行一个项目，我每天都会致力于它。
But if I’m in between things, then, of course, I don’t.
但如果我处于两件事之间，那么我当然不会。
What’s your best work habit, in your opinion?
您认为您最好的工作习惯是什么？
I have no good work habits.
我没有良好的工作习惯。
Well, there’s evidence to the contrary on this table, right ?
好吧，这张桌子上有相反的证据，对吗？
Yeah, but those were not produced by good work habits.
是的，但这些并不是由良好的工作习惯产生的。
I tried to have good work habits once, but it was a terrible, terrible failure.
我曾经尝试过养成良好的工作习惯，但那是一次非常非常糟糕的失败。
I tried to be organized and methodical, but that didn’t work.
我试图做到有条理、有条理，但没有成功。
What’s your most unusual work habit?
你最不寻常的工作习惯是什么？
Most unusual work habit.
最不寻常的工作习惯。
Well, it depends who’s calling you unusual, doesn’t it?
好吧，这取决于谁说你不寻常，不是吗？
I don’t have any fetishes, sad to say.
遗憾的是，我没有任何恋物癖。
I don’t have some mythic fountain pen or some .
我没有什么神话钢笔之类的。
.
。
.
。
I don’t have a cork-lined room.
我没有软木塞的房间。
I don’t have to have 15 .
我不必有 15 个。
.
。
.
。
Who was it that drank 30 cups of tea?
喝了30杯茶的是谁？
I don’t know how they could have done that.
我不知道他们是怎么做到的。
I think it was Johnson.
我认为是约翰逊。
He must have been absolutely mummified inside.
他的内心一定已经完全木乃伊化了。
Balzac — how much coffee did he drink?
巴尔扎克——他喝了多少咖啡？
I think he must have been insane.
我想他一定是疯了。
Anyway, no, I don’t have any really terrible work habits, except possibly caffeine.
不管怎样，不，我没有任何真正糟糕的工作习惯，除了咖啡因。
You’ve written a great number of book reviews, more than most writers.
您写了很多书评，比大多数作家都多。
Why has that been the case?
为什么会出现这样的情况呢？
Well, it’s this thing of coming from this small country where you kind of had to do stuff yourself.
嗯，这就是来自这个小国家的事情，在那里你必须自己做事。
Writers were in the habit of writing reviews of books because other people weren’t doing it.
作家们习惯于写书评，因为其他人不这样做。
I see it sort of like giving blood.
我认为这有点像献血。
You don’t like it, and even though they give you a cookie and some orange juice, it’s not fun.
你不喜欢它，即使他们给你一块饼干和一些橙汁，这也不好玩。
That’s about all you get from writing book reviews, too, by the way.
顺便说一句，这也是你从写书评中得到的一切。
But you feel you have to contribute to the pool of book reviews, just as you have to contribute to the pool of blood because one day you may need some.
但你觉得你必须为书评池做出贡献，就像你必须为血池做出贡献一样，因为有一天你可能需要一些。
Yeah?
是的？
You gave a very positive review to John Updike.
您对约翰·厄普代克给予了非常积极的评价。
Do you feel that work has held up?
你觉得工作还坚持吗？
Or does it look different now, looking back?
或者现在回想起来，情况有所不同？
I would have to go back and look.
我得回去看看。
It was Witches of Eastwick — that’s what you’re thinking of.
那是《伊斯特威克女巫》——《这就是你想到的》。
Yes.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
The most noteworthy thing about doing that review is that I had this big fight with the New York Times about what sorts of words I could use.
进行该评论最值得注意的事情是，我与《纽约时报》就我可以使用哪些词语进行了激烈的争论。
Which words were they banning?
他们禁止哪些词？
They were banning words having to do with urine because there is urine in that book.
他们禁止使用与尿液有关的词语，因为那本书里有尿液。
So what were we to call it?
那么我们该如何称呼它呢？
We could not call it piss.
我们不能称之为小便。
We could not call it pee.
我们不能称之为小便。
We could not call it urine.
我们不能称之为尿液。
They said, “This is a family newspaper.”
他们说：“这是一份家庭报纸。”
What was in their style guide?
他们的风格指南中有什么内容？
Well —
嗯——
They have a style guide for everything.
他们对一切都有风格指南。
They didn’t have anything in it.
他们里面什么也没有。
So we ended up calling it bodily fluids, which was much worse in my opinion.
所以我们最终将其称为体液，在我看来这更糟糕。
It was what the witches were putting into their charms.
这就是女巫们施展魅力的东西。
I was, at that time, living in a rectory in Norfolk, England, and there was no phone that I could phone out on.
当时我住在英国诺福克的一个教区长住宅里，没有电话可以打电话。
In order to phone out, I had to go outside the building into a phone booth — remember those?
为了打电话，我必须走到大楼外面的电话亭 —— 还记得那些吗？
— that a farmer was using to store his potatoes in.
——一位农民用来存放土豆的地方。
I had to climb over these potatoes and put enough money into the phone in order to make a phone call.
我必须爬过这些土豆，往手机里存足够的钱才能打电话。
Anyway, this is what life used to be like.
不管怎样，生活本来就是这样的。
You’re too young to remember that, but it did.
你还太小，不记得这一点，但它确实记得。
It seems you’re publishing — or maybe writing — poetry somewhat less frequently than you used to.
看来你出版——或者可能写——诗歌的频率比以前要少一些。
That’s untrue.
这是不真实的。
It’s untrue.
这是不真实的。
It’s just being published at a different pace?
只是发布速度不同？
I’m about to drop a great big sack full of poetry on a waiting world.
我即将把装满诗歌的大袋子扔到等待的世界上。
Oh, great, wonderful.
哦，太棒了，太棒了。
And when is that coming out?
那什么时候出来？
When I get it arranged.
当我安排好后。
Tell us about your patent, the LongPen.
告诉我们您的专利 LongPen。
Oh, it’s not just one patent anymore, dear.
哦，亲爱的，这不再只是一项专利。
How many?
多少？
Oh, I’ve lost count.
哦，我数不清了。
You’ve circled your patent with patents.
你已经用专利圈出了你的专利。
It’s families of patents.
这是专利家族。
Okay, so a long, long time ago, before you were born, and before there were any smartphones or tablets or any of these things we now use, a FedEx messenger came to my door.
好吧，很久很久以前，在你出生之前，在智能手机、平板电脑或我们现在使用的任何这些东西出现之前，联邦快递的信使来到了我家门口。
He had a little doodad and asked me to sign for my package.
他有一个小玩意，让我签收我的包裹。
So I signed for my package, and while I was signing for my package, I thought, this signature is winging its way through the air and it’s coming out somewhere else in the form of ink on paper.
所以我签署了我的包裹，当我签署我的包裹时，我想，这个签名正在空中飞翔，并以纸上墨水的形式出现在其他地方。
This was not true, but I thought it was.
这不是真的，但我认为是这样。
And I thought, “Why can’t I use something like this for remote book signings?” Remember, this is so long ago, there weren’t even any cameras in your laptop.
我想，“为什么我不能使用这样的东西来进行远程签名售书？”请记住，这是很久以前的事了，您的笔记本电脑中甚至没有任何摄像头。
In fact, there weren’t any laptops yet.
事实上，当时还没有笔记本电脑。
Yes.
是的。
So I said to somebody, “Why can’t we do a remote book signing?” They laughed at me because they were more technically knowledgeable than I was.
所以我对某人说：“为什么我们不能进行远程签名售书？”他们嘲笑我，因为他们的技术知识比我丰富。
Then I said, “See if it exists.” They went off and looked.
然后我说：“看看它是否存在。”他们走开去看。
And they came back and said, “It doesn’t exist.
他们回来说：“它不存在。
The closest thing to it is remote surgery.” Which is quite a different thing because you don’t want to sort of scribble on a body with a knife, unless you’re in a Kafka story.
最接近它的是远程手术。”这是完全不同的事情，因为你不想用刀在尸体上乱写乱画，除非你在卡夫卡的故事中。
I said, “Well, if it doesn’t exist, why don’t we invent it?” So we invented it.
我说：“好吧，如果它不存在，我们为什么不发明它呢？”所以我们发明了它。
It took four prototypes, one of which blew up and flew across the room.
共使用了四架原型机，其中一架爆炸并飞过房间。
But we did it.
但我们做到了。
It was more difficult than we thought.
这比我们想象的要困难。
We did it.
我们做到了。
And we ended up signing books remotely because the idea was to do remote book signings for people who couldn’t have them, couldn’t have real people because their publishers would never send them there.
我们最终选择了远程签名售书，因为我们的想法是为那些无法拥有书籍的人进行远程签名售书，无法拥有真实的人，因为他们的出版商永远不会将它们发送到那里。
We ended up doing that, but we couldn’t .
我们最终做到了，但我们做不到。
.
。
.
。
Can I use a verb?
我可以用动词吗？
We couldn’t scale it.
我们无法扩展它。
We didn’t know how to scale it.
我们不知道如何扩展它。
So then it segued into another area of life.
于是它就进入了生活的另一个领域。
It passed through the valley of the shadow of the digital.
它穿过了数字阴影的山谷。
Maybe before three years ago, there was a period when people were saying, “Everything’s going to be digital, so why are you wasting your time doing this stupid thing?” And they said all books are going to be e-books.
也许在三年前，有一段时间人们会说：“一切都会数字化，那你为什么要浪费时间做这种愚蠢的事情呢？”他们说所有的书都将是电子书。
That’s not true.
那不是真的。
It didn’t turn out to be true.
事实证明这不是真的。
And it turns out that not everything can be digital, and we now know why.
事实证明，并非一切都可以数字化，我们现在知道原因了。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Because it’s so screamingly hackable.
因为它非常容易被黑客攻击。
The thing is that a lot of higher kinds of documents will not accept digital signatures, as such, if you can’t produce a pen-and-ink paper version.
问题是，如果您无法制作笔墨纸质版本，许多高级文档将不接受数字签名。
We were the only people who, as it turned out, could do that.
事实证明，我们是唯一能做到这一点的人。
If you’d like to read more about that, you go onto the internet, and you put in “syngrafii.com” and there’s the whole story.
如果你想了解更多相关内容，你可以上网，输入“syngrafii.com”，就会看到整个故事。
So the remote signing device that was originally intended for books moved over into business and the area of security and compliance.
因此，最初用于书籍的远程签名设备转移到了商业以及安全和合规领域。
Women have faced many disadvantages in history, but it seems, in the written arts, they’ve managed to overcome those disadvantages much more easily than, say, in painting.
女性在历史上面临着许多劣势，但似乎在书面艺术中，她们比绘画等领域更容易克服这些劣势。
Why do you think that is?
你认为这是为什么？
There’s even Tale of Genji, 18th century, Jane Austen.
甚至还有 18 世纪简·奥斯汀的《源氏物语》。
Quite early, large number of —
很早，大量——
You could do it anonymously, and you could do it at home, and you could pretend to be somebody else, as a lot of women writers did.
你可以匿名，也可以在家里，也可以假装成别人，就像很多女作家所做的那样。
In painting — and I think this is hilarious — they wouldn’t let women into art schools because they might see naked women.
在绘画方面——我认为这很搞笑——他们不会让女性进入艺术学校，因为她们可能会看到裸体女性。
“Oh my God, what’s that?”
“天哪，那是什么？”
When you were living in London — I think this is after Alberta — were you ever tempted just to stay there and be part of the London literary scene?
当您住在伦敦时——“我想这是在艾伯塔省之后”——您是否曾想过留在伦敦，成为伦敦文学界的一部分？
No.
不。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Because I’m not British.
因为我不是英国人。
But people often move countries.
但人们经常搬迁国家。
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
It’s probably easier to earn a living as a writer in London.
在伦敦以作家的身份谋生可能更容易。
No, I don’t think so.
不，我不这么认为。
I love going there and making fun of them.
我喜欢去那里取笑他们。
So, no. I have lots of fun, but living there would be a different type of thing.
所以，不。我有很多乐趣，但生活在那里会是一种不同的事情。
I remember when I first went there, Canada was very low on the totem pole of what you took seriously as any sort of artistic thing.
我记得当我第一次去那里时，加拿大在你认真对待的任何艺术事物的图腾柱上都非常低。
People really would say to me, “Canadian literature — isn’t that an oxymoron?” Or let me do it correctly , “Canadian literature — isn’t that an oxymoron?
人们真的会对我说：“加拿大文学 ——这不是矛盾吗？”或者让我正确地说，“加拿大文学 —— 这不是矛盾吗？
Ho, ho, ho.”
嗬，嗬，嗬。”
And people there — they didn’t know you were Margaret Atwood, right?
那里的人 ——他们不知道你是玛格丽特·阿特伍德，对吗？
Well, I wasn’t Margaret Atwood yet.
好吧，我还不是玛格丽特·阿特伍德。
Yes, but I was a fly on the wall.
是的，但我是墙上的一只苍蝇。
Anyway, lots of fun.
不管怎样，有很多乐趣。
But no, I could never really be somebody else.
但不，我永远不可能真正成为别人。
I have given a couple of lecture series, mainly at Cambridge and Oxford, and I took care on those occasions to be as Canadian as I possibly could.
我做过几个系列讲座，主要是在剑桥和牛津，在这些场合我尽可能地表现得像加拿大人。
There was no point trying to pretend to be British.
试图假装自己是英国人是没有意义的。
They find you out immediately.
他们会立即找到您。
I have an agent who is actually Polish.
我有一个实际上是波兰人的经纪人。
She grew up under the Soviets in Poland, and her name is Karolina Sutton.
她在苏联统治下的波兰长大，她的名字叫卡罗琳娜·萨顿。
She told me this, and I said, “But, Karolina, you’ve got such an amazing British accent.” And she said, “Oh, no, it’s very fake.” She said, “I learned it off the BBC.” She said, “The British can tell immediately that I’m not British.”
她告诉我这件事，我说，“但是，卡罗琳娜，你的英国口音真是太棒了。”她说：“哦，不，这很假。”她说：“我是从 BBC 那里学到的。”她说：“英国人立刻就能看出我不是英国人。”
To what extent do you crave having some part of your life where people really do not know you’re Margaret Atwood?
你在多大程度上渴望生活中的某些部分人们真的不知道你是玛格丽特·阿特伍德？
Oh, that’s easy to arrange.
噢，这很容易安排。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
I just go to some other country where they don’t know I’m Margaret Atwood.
我只是去了其他一些国家，那里的人不知道我是玛格丽特·阿特伍德。
Although, you never can tell.
虽然，你永远无法判断。
You never can tell when somebody’s going to pop out of the woodwork.
你永远不知道什么时候有人会突然冒出来。
It’s why I can’t be an effective criminal anymore.
这就是为什么我不能再成为一名有效的罪犯了。
Last question about your career.
最后一个问题是关于你的职业生涯。
Overall, if you were to explain the enormous prodigious output, which people are still reading — virtually all of it.
总的来说，如果你要解释人们仍在阅读的巨大成果——几乎全部。
Some of it is here on these shelves.
其中一些就在这些架子上。
To what do you attribute that?
您认为这归因于什么？
Why are you one of the most productive writers?
为什么您是最有生产力的作家之一？
Because I needed to make a living out of it.
因为我需要以此谋生。
But you’re still writing, yes?
但你还在写，是吗？
There you go.
就这样吧。
I don’t have a pension.
我没有养老金。
I don’t teach at a university.
我不在大学教书。
What can I say?
我能说什么？
No, I took some measures to avoid teaching at a university because I did teach at universities, but back in the grim old days when there were gender issues.
不，我采取了一些措施避免在大学教书，因为我确实在大学教书，但回到了存在性别问题的严峻过去。
I don’t like to say this, but there were.
我不想这么说，但确实有。
Yeah, there were gender issues.
是的，存在性别问题。
Also, there were writer issues at universities in those days because they hadn’t yet realized what a tremendous cash cow creative writing courses were.
此外，当时大学里还存在作家问题，因为他们还没有意识到创意写作课程是多么巨大的摇钱树。
And if you actually were a writer and publishing things, they looked at you askance.
如果你真的是一名作家并出版东西，他们就会斜视你。
Margaret Atwood, thank you very much.
玛格丽特·阿特伍德，非常感谢你。
Q&A
问答
So now you have to edit that, right?
所以现在你必须编辑它，对吗？
You have to edit it and make it into a podcast.
你必须编辑它并将其制作成播客。
Or do you just run the whole thing?
或者你只是运行整个事情？
We’ll just run the whole thing.
我们将运行整个过程。
Well, there you go.
好吧，就这样吧。
We have two mics for questions.
我们有两个麦克风供提问。
You may line up at the mic.
你可以在麦克风前排队。
We are here to hear Margaret Atwood, so this is not the time to make speeches.
我们来这里是为了聆听玛格丽特·阿特伍德的演讲，所以现在不是发表演讲的时间。
If you start making a speech, I will just cut you off and turn it into a question.
如果你开始演讲，我就会打断你，把它变成一个问题。
Why did you put Edgar Allan Poe up here?
你为什么把埃德加·爱伦·坡放在这里？
Well, he’s an influence of yours, correct?
嗯，他是受你影响的，对吗？
Well, he is, yes.
嗯，他是，是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
A strong influence.
有很强的影响力。
Well, he was when I was 15, yeah.
嗯，他是在我15岁的时候，是的。
Who in Canadian literature has been the strongest influence on you?
加拿大文学中谁对您影响最大？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Probably Alice, maybe.
也许是爱丽丝吧。
But we were contemporaries, Alice Munro.
但我们是同时代人，艾丽丝·门罗。
I think it was probably most in poetry.
我想这可能是诗歌中最多的。
I was of that age to get influenced.
我到了那个容易受到影响的年龄。
After a while, you don’t get influenced because your brain has turned to cement.
过了一段时间，你就不会受到影响，因为你的大脑已经变成水泥了。
First question, over here.
第一个问题，在这里。
Hi, Ms. Atwood.
你好，阿特伍德女士。
Thank you very much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
I wanted to ask you .
我想问你。
.
。
.
。
You are very special in that throughout your work, especially your novels — Cat’s Eye, Robber Bride, even The Handmaid’s Tale, even though it goes unnoticed — you portray the cruelty and psychological manipulation that women inflict on one another.
在你的整个作品中，你非常特别，尤其是你的小说——《猫眼》、《强盗新娘》，甚至《使女的故事》，尽管它没有被注意到——你描绘了女性对彼此施加的残酷和心理操纵。
I wondered, in your opinion, why mainstream progressive feminism today can’t seem to acknowledge the role of intrasexual competition in the lives of the oppression of women?
我想知道，在您看来，为什么今天的主流进步女权主义似乎无法承认性内竞争在女性受压迫的生活中所扮演的角色？
You mean woman-woman?
你是说女人女人？
Yeah.
是的。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Because they’ve forgotten grade four.
因为他们忘记了四年级。
I think it’s an ideological thing, that it’s a piece of ideology that says this shouldn’t happen, and therefore we’re not allowed to say that it does happen.
我认为这是一个意识形态问题，它是一种意识形态，说这不应该发生，因此我们不被允许说它确实发生了。
But you know, essentially women are people, just like other people.
但你知道，从本质上来说，女性也是人，就像其他人一样。
That means that there’s a wide variety, and there are different degrees of aggression and dominance and so forth amongst them.
这意味着它们的种类繁多，并且它们之间存在不同程度的攻击性和支配性等等。
And there are power struggles.
还有权力斗争。
That’s just like people.
这就像人一样。
So why be surprised?
那么为什么要感到惊讶呢？
And why try to pretend it doesn’t happen?
为什么要假装这件事没有发生呢？
It’s kind of not the point.
这不是重点。
Women don’t have to be perfect in order to have rights.
女性不必为了拥有权利而变得完美。
If men had to be perfect in order to have rights, they wouldn’t have any rights.
如果男人必须完美才能拥有权利，那么他们就没有任何权利。
It’s not perfect.
这并不完美。
Women aren’t perfect either, and they shouldn’t be expected to be perfect any more than anybody else.
女性也不完美，也不应该期望她们比其他人更完美。
It’s really a pretty simple story, and even if you get a quite heavily invested ideological female person — if you go back in her past, you will find a moment in her life when some other female person wasn’t totally nice to her.
这确实是一个非常简单的故事，即使你遇到一个意识形态投入相当大的女性——如果你回顾她的过去，你会发现在她生命中的某个时刻，其他女性对她并不完全友善。
It happens.
它发生了。
So what?
所以呢？
It doesn’t mean that women aren’t worthy of having rights like other people.
这并不意味着女性不值得拥有像其他人一样的权利。
You still can submit iPad questions, but next question over here.
您仍然可以提交 iPad 问题，但下一个问题在这里。
I thought I heard that there was going to be The Handmaid’s Tale, a sequel.
我想我听说会有《使女的故事》的续集。
There is.
有。
I was wondering if you could comment on that.
我想知道你是否可以对此发表评论。
I can, a bit.
我可以，一点点。
I can’t tell you much about it because my publishers will immediately arrive in a balloon and kill me.
我不能告诉你太多，因为我的出版商会立即乘坐气球到达并杀死我。
But if you go on the internet and put The Testaments, you can see the cover.
但如果你上网并放置《遗嘱》，你就可以看到封面。
I can tell you it will be published on September the 10th.
我可以告诉你它将在9月10日发布。
I can tell you that there are three narrators.
我可以告诉你，有三个叙述者。
That’s about all I can tell you.
我能告诉你的就是这些。
But they’re bringing leakages out over time, as is their way these days.
但随着时间的推移，他们会发现漏洞，就像他们现在的做法一样。
Increasingly, they tend to launch books in the same way that they launch movies.
他们越来越倾向于像推出电影一样推出书籍。
Question from the iPad.
来自 iPad 的问题。
What are you reading right now?
你现在在读什么？
I’m editing a book, so that means I’m not reading much.
我正在编辑一本书，所以这意味着我读的书不多。
But I noticed an interesting trend.
但我注意到一个有趣的趋势。
I always used to be able to depend on the Gideons because no matter what else you were doing, there would always be a Bible in the hotel room.
我过去总是能够依赖吉迪恩夫妇，因为无论你在做什么，酒店房间里总会有一本圣经。
They’re dwindling away.
他们正在逐渐减少。
You can no longer read about wholesale massacres in the land of Canaan.
你不能再读到迦南土地上的大规模屠杀。
I don’t tend to cart around big heavy books with me when I’m traveling.
当我旅行时，我不倾向于随身携带又大又重的书。
I used to be able to depend on one being there, but they’re failing.
我曾经能够依靠一个人在那里，但他们失败了。
Hi.
你好。
I’m an annual visitor to the Stratford and Shaw festivals, and I was wondering if you could tell this audience —
我是斯特拉特福音乐节和邵氏音乐节的年度访客，我想知道你是否可以告诉观众——
Good for you.
对你有好处。
I know, for about 15 years — about Canadian theater, and probably the Stratford Festival in particular, since I see that you often retweet about what they’re doing.
我知道，大约 15 年了——关于加拿大戏剧，尤其是斯特拉特福音乐节，因为我看到你经常转发他们正在做的事情。
That’s right, yeah.
没错，是的。
The Stratford Festival started in the ’50s.
斯特拉特福音乐节始于 50 年代。
When it first started, it was in a tent.
刚开始的时候，是在一个帐篷里。
It was a town that had been quite a heavy railroad town and also a center of pigs.
这个小镇曾经是一个铁路重镇，也是猪的中心。
It was a pig center.
那是一个养猪中心。
If you go online and look up Slings and Arrows, you can find a very funny miniseries that sat essentially in Stratford.
如果你上网查找《弹弓与箭》，你会发现一部非常有趣的迷你剧，基本上发生在斯特拉特福。
One of those pig jokes gets into it.
其中一个关于猪的笑话就在其中。
I’ve been going there for a long time.
我已经去那里很长时间了。
I used to take my parents and the teenage kids and everybody.
我曾经带着我的父母、十几岁的孩子和所有人。
It’s pretty inventive.
这很有创意。
I think it does a pretty good job.
我认为它做得很好。
What else can I tell you?
我还能告诉你什么？
The town fathers, when it first started — or the town citizens — looked at it askance because it was artistic, don’t you know?
刚开始的时候镇父们——或者镇民们——都斜视着它，因为它很艺术，你知道吗？
It was in the ’50s, and they had been used to railroads and pigs, and they didn’t get it that this might rejuvenate their town, which it has done.
那是在 50 年代，他们已经习惯了铁路和养猪，他们没有意识到这可能会让他们的小镇焕发活力，而事实确实如此。
It’s one of the first festivals that brought the economic level of the venue up.
这是最早提升场馆经济水平的节日之一。
Hi.
你好。
What’s your favorite fairy tale and why?
你最喜欢的童话故事是什么？为什么？
My favorite fairy tale?
我最喜欢的童话故事？
Well, there’s a cluster of them that are interesting to me.
嗯，其中有一组对我来说很有趣。
I would say probably “The Juniper Tree,” if you know that one.
如果你知道的话，我可能会说“杜松树”。
No, no, no, no. Have a look — that one.
不，不，不，不。看看 —— 那个。
“The Robber Bridegroom” — I wrote a book called The Robber Bride, which takes a similar type of motif but flips it.
《强盗新郎》——我写了一本叫《强盗新娘》的书，它采用了类似的主题，但又颠倒了过来。
They’re infinitely suggestive — these folktales, fairy tales, legends, and myths — because we don’t really know what they mean.
它们具有无限的启发性——“这些民间故事、童话、传说和神话”——因为我们并不真正知道它们的含义。
So everybody’s always reinterpreting them for their own time and in their own way.
所以每个人总是根据自己的时代、以自己的方式重新解释它们。
I’m working with an actress right now on a reinterpretation of Medea.
我现在正在与一位女演员合作重新诠释美狄亚。
Thank you for speaking, and for all of your writings, especially your poetry.
感谢您的发言以及您所有的著作，尤其是您的诗歌。
I wanted to ask what television — or shows, because it’s not necessarily television anymore — shows and movies interest you.
我想问什么电视 或节目，因为它不再一定是电视 节目和电影让你感兴趣。
What do you watch?
你看什么？
I’ll watch anything.
我什么都会看。
No, I’ll watch anything, partly because my parents refused to get a television set when I was young.
不，我什么都看，部分原因是我小时候父母拒绝买电视机。
I always felt deprived.
我总是感到被剥夺了。
I felt I was a social pariah because I was not watching the Ed Sullivan Show.
我觉得自己是一个社会贱民，因为我没有看《埃德·沙利文秀》。
So I will watch anything, but I don’t watch things very frequently because I’m too busy.
所以我什么都会看，但是我不经常看，因为我太忙了。
But who else went off to see Aquaman?
但还有谁去看海王呢？
Yeah.
是的。
I’m surprised at you.
我对你感到惊讶。
Why didn’t you all go?
为什么你们都不去？
It’s an absolute grab bag of every hero myth on the planet, including the Arthurian legends.
这绝对是地球上所有英雄神话的集大成者，包括亚瑟王传奇。
There’s a reason why the half brother is called Orm.
这个同父异母的兄弟被称为奥姆是有原因的。
Just letting you know.
只是让你知道。
I don’t keep up, because nobody can.
我没有跟上，因为没有人能跟上。
There’s too much.
太多了。
Now that we have web streaming, there’s just a huge amount out there of stuff.
现在我们有了网络流媒体，那里有大量的东西。
But I intend to watch something called Dark (Black) Mirror when I’m not editing a book anymore.
但当我不再编辑一本书时，我打算看一些叫做《黑镜》的东西。
Does anybody watch that?
有人看吗？
Is it good?
好不好？
Yes?
是的？
Is it Edgar Allan Poe–ish?
是埃德加·爱伦·坡式的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yes?
是的？
Okay.
好的。
What’s your favorite classic movie?
你最喜欢的经典电影是什么？
I’m really bad at favorites.
我真的不擅长收藏。
These “favorite” questions — they just throw me for a loop every time.
这些“最喜欢”的问题每次都让我感到困惑。
That’s because I had a young daughter who used to say, “What’s your favorite color?” And I would say, “Red.” And “What’s your next favorite color?” And this would go on.
那是因为我有一个年幼的女儿，她常常问：“你最喜欢什么颜色？”我会说，“红色”。以及“你下一个最喜欢的颜色是什么？”这种情况还会继续下去。
Then she would go and say, “Which of my friends is your favorite?” I’d say, “Well, I like them all.” And she would pester me until I would name somebody.
然后她会走过去问：“你最喜欢我的哪个朋友？”我会说：“好吧，我都喜欢。”她会缠着我，直到我说出某人的名字。
And then she’d say, “Why don’t you like the others?”
然后她会说：“你为什么不喜欢其他人呢？”
So if you say something’s your favorite, the next thing somebody’s going to say is, “Why don’t you like the others?” And then they’ll feel very left out.
因此，如果你说某样东西是你最喜欢的，那么接下来有人会说：“你为什么不喜欢其他的呢？”然后他们会感到非常被冷落。
The ones who are not the favorite will feel left out.
那些不受欢迎的人会感到被排除在外。
So I’m against favorite things in general.
所以我总体上反对喜欢的东西。
I think it’s none of anybody’s business.
我认为这不关任何人的事。
And anyway, I don’t have favorites, I have a sort of a range of things I like.
不管怎样，我没有最喜欢的，我有一系列我喜欢的东西。
What’s your favorite pair of shoes?
你最喜欢哪双鞋？
Well, why aren’t you wearing the other one?
那么，你为什么不穿另一件呢？
From Italy, question from the iPad: “Why is television, the seemingly ascendant popular art, displacing film?”
来自意大利的 iPad 提问：“为什么电视这种看似方兴未艾的流行艺术正在取代电影？”
I’m not sure it is.
我不确定是不是。
But I think they mean streaming rather than television.
但我认为他们指的是流媒体而不是电视。
Okay.
好的。
Because it can expand to fill the space available for the story of whatever length it may be.
因为它可以扩展以填充故事的可用空间，无论故事的长度如何。
Films have a sort of set period of time.
电影有一定的时间段。
It’s usually 90 minutes.
通常是 90 分钟。
If you take something, even like Great Expectations, which has been made into film several times, you have to squish it, and it becomes — instead of an expansive work of art — it becomes a sort of reference to the book.
如果你拿了一些东西，即使是像《远大前程》这样被多次拍成电影的东西，你也必须把它压扁，它就变成了“——”而不是一件广阔的艺术品——“它变成了对这本书的一种参考。
So I think one reason that streaming has been popular is that things can be the length that they are.
所以我认为流媒体流行的原因之一是事物的长度是可以的。
I wanted to know, when you write, do you read it out loud to yourself, to someone else?
我想知道，当你写作时，你会大声朗读给自己听还是给别人听？
Or do you just reread it?
或者你只是重读一遍？
I’m a reader-out-louder.
我是一个大声读书的人。
To yourself or to someone?
对自己还是对某人？
To myself, yeah.
对我自己来说，是的。
But if you start, then, reading from your book in public, you’re bound to catch some stuff that you should have caught.
但如果你开始在公共场合阅读你的书，你一定会发现一些你应该发现的东西。
“Why did I do that?”
“我为什么要这么做？”
Do you ever read out loud other writers?
你曾经大声朗读过其他作家的作品吗？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
To other people.
对其他人来说。
Yeah.
是的。
We were great readers to children.
我们是孩子们的好读者。
I was read to as a child, and I think that’s really important.
我小时候就读过书，我认为这非常重要。
You have at least two high school English teachers here in the audience.
观众席中至少有两位高中英语老师。
So my question is, we are looking to expand what our kids are reading, and I didn’t know if you perhaps had some suggestions of overlooked authors, titles, anything that’s approachable for the high school student that maybe we haven’t come in contact with.
所以我的问题是，我们正在寻求扩大我们的孩子正在阅读的内容，我不知道您是否对被忽视的作者、书名以及我们可能尚未接触过的高中生平易近人的任何内容有一些建议。
How old are they?
他们几岁了？
Ninth through 12th graders, 14 to 18.
九年级至十二年级学生，14 岁至 18 岁。
Okay.
好的。
I would say it’s different for each of those years.
我想说的是，每年的情况都是不同的。
I guess people lump adolescents all in together, but that’s not true.
我猜人们把青少年归为一类，但事实并非如此。
A 17-year-old is very different from a 13-year-old.
17岁的孩子和13岁的孩子有很大不同。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’m out of touch.
我失去联系了。
What are they reading now?
他们现在在读什么？
Well, the newest text that our 12th graders just got is Purple Hibiscus, and things are going well.
嗯，我们 12 年级的学生刚刚收到的最新课文是《紫芙蓉》，一切进展顺利。
Things are going well.
事情进展顺利。
Okay.
好的。
I would have to give that some thought, but I don’t know them.
我必须考虑一下，但我不认识他们。
If you’re going to recommend books to somebody, you should know that person.
如果你要向某人推荐书籍，你应该认识那个人。
You should know what they like, what is really not going to do it for them, and proceed accordingly.
你应该知道他们喜欢什么，什么对他们来说确实不适合，然后据此进行。
The ones of mine that get taught the most to that age group — sometimes much to my dismay because I think they’re a bit young, but apparently not anymore — are Oryx and Crake and The Handmaid’s Tale.
我的学生中，在这个年龄段受教育最多的就是《羚羊与秧鸡》和《使女的故事》。
I think some books are teachable, and other books are great but it’s hard to figure out how to teach them, if you see what I mean.
我认为有些书是可以教的，而其他书也很棒，但很难弄清楚如何教它们，如果你明白我的意思的话。
I’ve always enjoyed the way you write about the ability of objects to evoke memory or nostalgia.
我一直很喜欢你写的关于物体唤起记忆或怀旧能力的方式。
Why is it that you think you’re so good at that?
为什么你认为自己在这方面很擅长？
And how do you approach writing about a relationship with objects and memory?
您如何撰写与物体和记忆的关系？
Wow.
哇。
Well, first of all, I’m Canadian, so I’m not allowed to say I’m good at anything.
好吧，首先，我是加拿大人，所以我不可以说我擅长任何事情。
Yes, we do the puncturing of hubris in our country.
是的，我们正在努力消除我们国家的狂妄自大。
Unlike you in yours.
跟你的情况不一样。
So, thank you.
所以，谢谢你。
Thank you, but we won’t let that get out to the general audience.
谢谢，但我们不会让普通观众知道这一点。
I think probably because I read a lot of Dickens.
我想可能是因为我读了很多狄更斯的书。
Dickens is not very good about women unless they’re eccentric, weird women.
狄更斯对女性不太好，除非她们是古怪、怪异的女性。
He’s kind of bad about the heroines.
他对女主角有点不好。
But he’s very good about objects.
但他对物体非常擅长。
The other person who’s very good about objects is Raymond Chandler.
另一个对物体非常擅长的人是雷蒙德·钱德勒。
Raymond Chandler is particularly good about furniture.
雷蒙德·钱德勒 (Raymond Chandler) 尤其擅长家具设计。
In fact, I have a little prose poem called “In Love with Raymond Chandler,” which is about his handling of sofas.
事实上，我有一首小散文诗，名叫《爱上雷蒙德·钱德勒》，是关于他对沙发的处理的。
Yes, objects are very evocative, especially if you’re a person who’s been a child and has a memory because children relate quite strongly to objects in their environment when they’re little.
是的，物体非常能唤起人们的回忆，特别是如果你是一个曾经是个孩子并且有记忆的人，因为孩子们在小的时候与环境中的物体有着非常强烈的联系。
From the iPad.
从iPad。
“How do you choose which nonfiction to read?”
“你如何选择阅读非小说类书籍？”
How do I choose which nonfiction to read?
如何选择要阅读的非小说类书籍？
Generally the biology, not too much the physics, unless it’s got color and pictures.
一般来说是生物学，而不是太多物理学，除非有彩色和图片。
Not so much the economics, but sometimes.
与其说是经济因素，不如说是有时。
But history, right?
但历史，对吗？
A lot of history, a lot of history
历史很多，历史很多
Surrounding what you’re writing about.
围绕你所写的内容。
Or just in general.
或者只是一般情况下。
I’ve just always been interested in history.
我一直对历史很感兴趣。
We have a great big library of World War II, partly because Graham’s dad was a Canadian general in it, so he collected a lot of books.
我们有一个关于二战的大型图书馆，部分原因是格雷厄姆的父亲是其中的一名加拿大将军，所以他收集了很多书籍。
My dad, although he was a biologist, was very interested in history.
我的父亲虽然是一名生物学家，但对历史非常感兴趣。
My mother liked to read historical novels of the ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s, of which there were a lot more than you might think.
我妈妈喜欢看50年代、60年代、70年代的历史小说，数量比你想象的要多得多。
Another iPad question.
另一个 iPad 问题。
“How much is Cat’s Eye autobiographical?
“《猫眼》自传多少钱？
And is there a bit of you in Tony from The Robber Bride?”
《强盗新娘》中的托尼身上有你的影子吗？
Those are two different questions.
这是两个不同的问题。
Yes.
是的。
All of the public school teachers in Cat’s Eye are real.
猫眼里的所有公立学校老师都是真实的。
I changed the names.
我改了名字。
But you had them?
但你有它们吗？
Oh yeah, I had them.
哦，是的，我有它们。
They had you.
他们有你。
They had me.
他们有我。
I had them, they had me.
我拥有他们，他们拥有我。
That school building, although torn down, was real.
那个校舍虽然被拆了，但却是真实存在的。
It’s of a certain vintage of school building.
这是一座特定年份的校舍。
The food is all real.
食物都是真实的。
What else can I say?
我还能说什么？
The clothing is real.
衣服是真的。
The children’s pastimes are real, so the period is real.
孩子们的消遣是真实的，所以那段时光也是真实的。
The plot — some of the plot, not so much.
情节 —— 一些情节，不是那么多。
The behavior of little girls is real, but it’s not confined to me and my generation.
小女孩的行为是真实的，但这不仅限于我和我们这一代人。
It seems to have been pretty universal.
这似乎是相当普遍的。
The only difference now is that a lot of it has moved onto text messaging and that kind of thing, whereas it used to be little folded pieces of paper.
现在唯一的区别是，其中很多已经转移到短信之类的事情上，而过去只是折叠起来的小纸片。
Next question.
下一个问题。
I know you said you didn’t keep up with a lot of shows, but I was wondering what you thought about the Hulu Handmaid’s Tale series?
我知道你说你没有跟上很多节目，但我想知道你对Hulu《使女的故事》系列有何看法？
Oh yeah, I keep up with that one.
哦，是的，我一直在关注那个。
Yeah, I’m something called an executive consultant.
是的，我是一名执行顾问。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Nothing.
没有什么。
It means that I have conversations with people on the phone, but they don’t have to do what I say.
这意味着我通过电话与人交谈，但他们不必按照我说的做。
I personally haven’t watched it except for a few clips because I quite like your book rather than the show.
我个人除了几个片段之外没有看过它，因为我更喜欢你的书而不是节目。
But from what I have seen, they really changed —
但从我所看到的来看，他们确实改变了——
They updated it.
他们更新了它。
Yeah, they really changed —
是的，他们真的改变了——
They updated it.
他们更新了它。
They made Serena Joy younger.
他们让瑟琳娜·乔伊变得更年轻。
Yeah, Serena Joy — they made her younger.
是的，Serena Joy ——他们让她变得更年轻。
They made her friendlier.
他们让她变得更加友善。
They have a multiracial cast, whereas in the book, it’s much more of a South African pattern in which they’re white supremacist segregationists.
他们的演员阵容是多种族的，而在书中，他们更像是南非的模式，他们是白人至上主义的种族隔离主义者。
I noticed they also made Offred pregnant.
我注意到他们还让奥弗雷德怀孕了。
She actually did get pregnant in the show, and I was wondering —
她确实在剧中怀孕了，我想知道——
She gets pregnant in the book.
书中她怀孕了。
Really?
真的吗？
Yeah, it’s at the end.
是的，已经到最后了。
Oh my God.
我的天啊。
I didn’t know that.
我不知道。
Okay.
好的。
That’s something new.
这是新事物。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, you know what —
好吧，你知道吗——
In the last two chapters.
在最后两章。
I also just found out that you actually did provide Offred’s name in the book; I’m shocked.
我还刚刚发现你确实在书中提供了奥弗雷德的名字；我很震惊。
On social media —
在社交媒体上——
No, I didn’t.
不，我没有。
June isn’t her name?
六月不是她的名字吗？
No. She doesn’t have a name in the book.
不，书中没有她的名字。
The readers figured out what the name was, so I had to accept their verdict.
读者们知道了这个名字是什么，所以我不得不接受他们的结论。
They did a piece of reasoning which goes like this: There are a number of names mentioned in the first chapter, and of all of those names mentioned, only one of them isn’t mentioned again.
他们做了这样的推理：第一章提到了很多名字，而所有提到的名字中，只有一个没有再提到。
So they figured it had to be her.
所以他们认为一定是她。
But that was them; it wasn’t me.
但那就是他们；这不是我。
However, the show adopted that, so it’s a question of readers adding in something that is in the book, but it wasn’t in the mind of the writer consciously.
然而，节目采用了这一点，所以这是读者添加书中内容的问题，但作者并没有有意识地添加这些内容。
I’ve got nothing against that because it doesn’t contradict the text.
我对此没有任何反对，因为它与文本并不矛盾。
It adds something in.
它添加了一些东西。
Yeah, I didn’t like that because I was like, no, the whole point is that she never gave her name and her daughter’s name.
是的，我不喜欢这样，因为我想，不，重点是她从未透露过她的名字和她女儿的名字。
No, she doesn’t.
不，她不。
Yeah.
是的。
She doesn’t in the book, but the readers decided that that must be her name.
书中没有她的名字，但读者认为这一定是她的名字。
But they’re not in the book.
但它们不在书中。
Yeah, so I just wanted to know what was your take on how the show was going.
是的，所以我只是想知道你对节目的进展有何看法。
I know that they kind of have your blessing, but I was just wondering how…
我知道他们得到了你的祝福，但我只是想知道如何......
Well, the show is going very well because, I think, for the people in it, it’s not just a show.
嗯，这部剧进展得很顺利，因为我认为，对于剧中的人来说，这不仅仅是一场演出。
The showrunner’s name is Bruce Miller — decided when he was 19 that this was what he wanted to do when he grew up.
该剧的制作人名叫布鲁斯·米勒（Bruce Miller）——他在 19 岁时就决定这就是他长大后想做的事情。
He pitched himself at the time when they were looking for a showrunner.
当他们寻找剧集主管时，他就自我推销了。
So people are quite passionately involved with it.
所以人们非常热情地参与其中。
And it has given rise to an international protest symbol — which is not confined to this country; it’s popped up all over the world — in which people put on the outfit.
它已经产生了一个国际抗议的象征——这不仅限于这个国家；它出现在世界各地 ——人们穿上这件衣服。
It’s kind of brilliant because you can’t be kicked out for being dressed immodestly, and you can’t be kicked out for causing a disturbance because you’re not saying anything.
这真是太棒了，因为你不会因为衣着不端正而被踢出局，也不会因为你什么都没说而造成骚乱而被踢出局。
But everybody looks at it and they know what it means.
但每个人都看它并且知道它意味着什么。
So there again, it wasn’t anything I thought of.
所以，这又不是我想到的。
I think it started in Texas, to tell you the truth, and it has since spread.
说实话，我认为它始于德克萨斯州，后来就蔓延开来了。
That is entirely due to the show.
这完全是节目的功劳。
Question from the iPad.
来自 iPad 的问题。
“After Testaments, is there a project you’re working on that you’re able to talk about?”
“在《遗嘱》之后，有没有一个你正在做的项目可以谈谈？”
Well, let me get through one thing at a time.
好吧，让我一次完成一件事。
But you finished Testaments, right?
但你已经完成了《遗嘱》，对吗？
I’m editing it.
我正在编辑它。
You’re editing it.
你正在编辑它。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
It’s never over.
它永远不会结束。
And what comes next?
接下来会发生什么？
Well, probably this big sack of poetry.
嗯，可能就是这一大袋诗歌。
Big sack of poetry.
一大袋诗。
Big sack of poetry.
一大袋诗。
Another reader question.
另一个读者问题。
“Would Margaret choose to live forever if it were possible?”
“如果可以的话，玛格丽特会选择永生吗？”
No, absolutely not.
不，绝对不是。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Well, first of all, if everybody else was also living forever, we would have a big problem.
好吧，首先，如果其他人也都永远活着，我们就会遇到一个大问题。
There are a lot of people I don’t want to have live forever.
有很多人我不想永远活下去。
So, if I could have them not live forever, I’m going to have to agree to not live forever, either.
所以，如果我能让他们不永生，我也必须同意不永生。
But I think people have written about this a lot, the living forever theme.
但我认为人们已经写了很多关于永生主题的文章。
And it always turns out to be a very dicey proposition.
结果总是证明这是一个非常冒险的提议。
Number one, you get bored.
第一，你会感到无聊。
Number two, you’re probably a vampire.
第二，你可能是吸血鬼。
Number three .
第三。
.
。
.
。
Have you seen the brilliant .
你见过辉煌吗？
.
。
.
。
Here’s a film I have seen, which is quite brilliant — Swedish version only, please — Let the Right One In.
这是我看过的一部电影，非常精彩 —— 只有瑞典版，请 —— 让合适的人进来。
Anybody?
有人吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Very well done.
做得很好。
It’s the Swedish vampire film about a 12-year-old vampire that Ingmar Bergman would have made if he’d ever made a Swedish vampire film about a 12-year-old vampire.
这是一部关于 12 岁吸血鬼的瑞典吸血鬼电影，如果英格玛·伯格曼曾拍过一部关于 12 岁吸血鬼的瑞典吸血鬼电影，他会拍的。
It’s got one of the all-time best lines in it where the little boy says to this 12-year-old vampire, “How old are you, really?” And she says, “I’m really 12, but I’ve been 12 for a very long time.”
其中有有史以来最好的台词之一，小男孩对这个 12 岁的吸血鬼说：“你真的多大了？”她说：“我真的12岁了，但我已经12岁了很长一段时间了。”
Last question.
最后一个问题。
If you were giving advice to someone starting out today as a writer — not that they would be growing up in the times you grew up in — but what advice would you pass down to that person, regardless?
如果你向今天开始成为作家的人提出建议——并不是说他们会在你成长的时代长大——但无论如何，你会向那个人传达什么建议呢？
Keep doing it every day.
每天坚持这样做。
Keep doing it every day.
每天坚持这样做。
Yes.
是的。
I don’t, but you should.
我不知道，但你应该这样做。
Because if you’re a starting-out writer, that’s good for you.
因为如果您是一位新手作家，这对您有好处。
But the main thing to remember is, nobody’s going to see it until you let them.
但要记住的最重要的一点是，除非你允许，否则没有人会看到它。
So you need not be inhibited when you’re actually writing.
所以当你真正写作时，你不必受到抑制。
It’s just between you and the page.
它就在你和页面之间。
And if you don’t like what you wrote that day, the wastepaper basket is there for you.
如果你不喜欢那天写的内容，废纸篓就在那里。
Margaret Atwood, thank you very much.
玛格丽特·阿特伍德，非常感谢你。