Luke Burgis on Mimetic Desire, Catholicism, and the Age of Social Contagion (Ep. 287)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I am sitting here personally with Luke Burgis, one of my favorite current thinkers.
今天，我和卢克·布尔吉斯（Luke Burgis）亲自坐在这里，他是我最喜欢的当代思想家之一。
He’s author of the bestselling book Wanting, and his recent work is just coming out.
他是畅销书《想要》的作者，他的最新作品刚刚出版。
It is called The One and the Ninety-Nine: Forging Identity in the Age of Social Contagion.
它被称为“一与九十九：在社会传染时代锻造身份”。
Luke, welcome.
卢克，欢迎。
Thanks for having me, Tyler.
谢谢你邀请我，泰勒。
Good to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
I should add you are also director and founder of the Cluny Institute.
我应该补充一下，您也是克鲁尼研究所的所长和创始人。
What is your title?
你的头衔是什么？
I’m assistant professor of practice in the business school at Catholic University.
我是天主教大学商学院的实践助理教授。
Great.
伟大的。
I have questions about your latest book and your thought more generally.
我对你的最新书和你的一般想法有疑问。
Is the current age of pessimism and despair ending?
当前的悲观和绝望时代是否已经结束？
I think it might get worse before it gets better.
我认为在好转之前情况可能会变得更糟。
I hope it ends.
我希望一切能够结束。
There’s been a lot of talk among friends of mine who are very pro-tech accelerationists that the pope is going to really come down on tech in his new papal encyclical, which at the time of our conversation is not out yet.
我的朋友中有很多人都非常支持科技加速主义者，他们都在谈论教皇将在他的新教皇通谕中真正贬低科技，而在我们谈话时，该通谕尚未发布。
There’s been a lot of speculation about it.
对此有很多猜测。
I think they’re absolutely wrong, for instance, in that case.
例如，在那种情况下，我认为他们绝对是错误的。
I think he’s going to be very optimistic about what AI can do for humanity, of course, with some cautions about the way that it develops.
我认为他会对人工智能为人类做的事情非常乐观，当然，同时也会对其发展方式提出一些警告。
I think that even among my tech friends, I’m seeing a lot of pessimism for what a thinker like the pope might say and not even giving him the benefit of the doubt that we might be entering an age where we can actually learn more about what it means to be human than less.
我认为，即使在我的科技朋友中，我也看到了很多对像教皇这样的思想家可能会说的话持悲观态度，甚至没有让他相信我们可能正在进入一个我们实际上可以更多地了解人类意味着什么的时代。
That might lead to a renaissance in the humanities, for instance.
例如，这可能会导致人文学科的复兴。
I think AI is performing a kind of via negativa on the human person, maybe even the human soul, in helping us discover who we are.
我认为人工智能正在对人类，甚至人类的灵魂进行某种否定，帮助我们发现自己是谁。
To me, that’s very exciting.
对我来说，这非常令人兴奋。
I agree with you about the pope, but if social contagion is such a dominant force, how does the age of pessimism get turned around?
我同意你对教皇的看法，但如果社会传染是一种主导力量，那么悲观主义的时代如何扭转呢？
What’s the mechanism by which things will flip?
事情发生翻转的机制是什么？
We need some more optimists, and then we can hope for a good contagion with the optimists.
我们需要更多的乐观主义者，然后我们就可以希望乐观主义者能够很好地传染。
Why doesn’t the negative contagion just get stronger and stronger and overwhelm everything, and we all drown in a sea of terribleness?
为什么消极的传染没有变得越来越强烈并压倒一切，让我们都淹没在可怕的海洋中？
The negative contagion and pessimism can’t go on forever.
负面传染和悲观情绪不可能永远持续下去。
I think that there are cultural and societal release valves for that kind of thing.
我认为这种事情有文化和社会的释放阀。
Vibe shifts happen.
氛围发生转变。
There’s the scapegoat mechanism.
这里有替罪羊机制。
I don’t know if we’ll talk about Girard today.
我不知道今天我们是否会谈论吉拉德。
I think that there are things that correct.
我认为有些事情是正确的。
Sometimes we over-correct.
有时我们会矫枉过正。
I just don’t see the age of pessimism lasting.
我只是不认为悲观主义的时代会持续下去。
I think sometimes if something happens that is traumatic and tragic, like a serious war, even worse than the wars that we currently see in the world today, maybe it will take something like that to actually help people build something.
我认为有时如果发生了一些创伤性和悲剧性的事情，比如一场严重的战争，甚至比我们目前在世界上看到的战争更糟糕，也许需要这样的事情才能真正帮助人们建立一些东西。
It sounds a little bit paradoxical, but I think sometimes optimism can arise out of tragedy.
这听起来有点自相矛盾，但我认为有时候悲剧中也能产生乐观。
Why does it seem in the data, at least, that the Anglo world is especially so unhappy?
至少从数据来看，为什么盎格鲁世界尤其如此不高兴？
The Anglo world, I think, especially in the US, I really believe that we have some bad ideas, what Byung-Chul Han has called the achievement subject.
我认为，在盎格鲁世界，尤其是在美国，我真的相信我们有一些糟糕的想法，韩秉哲所说的“成就主体”。
It’s this very Calvinist idea that I think has affected even the way that we think about entrepreneurship, which I’m extremely pro-entrepreneurship, but I think that it’s in his book, The Burnout Society, which was one of my favorite books.
我认为正是这种加尔文主义的思想甚至影响了我们对创业精神的思考方式，我非常支持创业精神，但我认为这是在他的书《倦怠社会》中，这是我最喜欢的书之一。
I think he diagnoses the problem very well.
我认为他很好地诊断了这个问题。
We’ve internalized this idea that we always have to be doing something.
我们已经内化了这样的想法：我们总是必须做某事。
There is always more to achieve.
总是有更多的事情需要实现。
We’ve forgotten some of the fundamental things that actually make for a good life.
我们忘记了一些真正构成美好生活的基本要素。
Family structures, people are not having children.
家庭结构，人们没有孩子。
You and I have talked about the fertility crisis before.
你和我之前已经讨论过生育危机。
I think that that achievement subject mentality has affected the West through everything from media to our business culture.
我认为这种成就主体心态已经通过从媒体到我们的商业文化的各个方面影响了西方。
I think we’re going to need to reevaluate that as a society.
我认为我们作为一个社会需要重新评估这一点。
I just got back from three and a half weeks in Italy and I came back—I was going to say I came back refreshed, but I traveled with the toddler, so I can’t say that—I came back wondering.
我刚从意大利呆了三个半星期回来，我本来想说我回来时神清气爽，但我带着孩子一起旅行，所以我不能这么说——我回来时感到很疑惑。
For all of the economic stagnation and problems that Italy has, do they also have something right?
对于意大利面临的所有经济停滞和问题，他们是否也有一些正确的地方？
People there actually seem more joyful and optimistic, even than most Americans that I know that are doing pretty well.
那里的人们实际上看起来更加快乐和乐观，甚至比我认识的大多数美国人都表现得更好。
As a critique of modernity, is Dostoevsky or Thomas Mann more on the mark?
作为对现代性的批判，陀思妥耶夫斯基还是托马斯·曼更切中要害？
I’m very sympathetic to Thomas Mann because I went to a seminary on top of a hill in Italy for three years that almost felt like a sanatorium in some ways.
我非常同情托马斯·曼，因为我在意大利山顶的一所神学院学习了三年，在某些方面几乎感觉就像一个疗养院。
I’m going to go with Dostoevsky, though, because I think his book Demons diagnoses what can happen at a psychic and spiritual level when social contagion runs rampant.
不过，我会选择陀思妥耶夫斯基，因为我认为他的书《恶魔》诊断了当社会传染猖獗时在心理和精神层面上会发生什么。
Of course, having just written a book about social contagion, I don’t think he’s mentioned in the book, but Dostoevsky and some of the demonic elements, whether you believe in demons or not, we can speak of the demonic as something that seems to be characterized by social contagion usually.
当然，刚刚写了一本关于社会传染的书，我认为书中没有提到他，但是陀思妥耶夫斯基和一些恶魔元素，无论你是否相信恶魔，我们都可以将恶魔视为通常具有社会传染特征的东西。
On overapplying mimetic theory
论模仿理论的过度应用
Here’s a question from GPT, and I quote, “Name the kind of person who reads your book, takes the thesis sincerely, applies it carefully, and yet ends up worse off.” What’s the story there?
这是 GPT 的一个问题，我引用一下：“请说出哪种人读了你的书，真诚地接受论文，仔细地应用它，但最终却变得更糟。”那里有什么故事？
The new book or Wanting or both?
新书还是想要还是两者都有？
The new book.
新书。
Both, but they’re of a piece, right?
两者都是，但它们是一体的，对吧？
They’re connected.
他们是相连的。
Wanting is about mimetic desire, and this book is a continuation of that and how it plays out in social dynamics, the self versus the crowd.
想要是关于模仿的欲望，这本书是它的延续，以及它如何在社会动态、自我与群体中发挥作用。
I actually think there’s a risk with my books and with any nonfiction book or the exposure to any big idea, especially one that purports to explain some fundamental first principle about social life, of thinking about it too much, making it a theory of everything, over-psychologizing everything, and losing sight of the concrete realities and circumstances that we’re in.
事实上，我认为我的书和任何非小说类书籍或任何大思想的接触都存在风险，尤其是那些旨在解释社会生活的一些基本第一原则的书，思考太多，使其成为一切的理论，对一切进行过度心理学化，并忽视我们所处的具体现实和环境。
To give you an example, it’s been said that once a novelist reads the work of René Girard and understands mimetic theory and mimetic desire, it will ruin them as a novelist because now they don’t think that they have any original ideas, everything’s just mimetic.
举个例子，有人说，一旦小说家读了雷内·吉拉德的作品，理解了模仿理论和模仿欲望，就会毁掉他们作为小说家的地位，因为现在他们认为自己没有任何原创想法，一切都只是模仿。
The way out of that problem actually is to stop thinking about it so dang much and to not impose that frame on everything and to get back to the concrete and the particulars of life, which is a kind of antidote.
解决这个问题的方法实际上是停止思考它，不要把这个框架强加于一切，回到生活的具体和细节，这是一种解药。
I’m not saying don’t reflect and don’t think and that we shouldn’t think about these things, but there is such a thing as overthinking.
我并不是说不要反思，不要思考，我们不应该考虑这些事情，但确实存在过度思考的情况。
It’s a little bit like efficient markets theory.
这有点像有效市场理论。
Even if it’s true, it’s better not to believe it?
就算是真的，也最好不要相信吧？
Yes.
是的。
On AI and social contagion
关于人工智能和社会传染
Better for the world and maybe better for you too.
对世界更好，也许对你也更好。
Speaking of AI, will it make social contagion stronger or weaker or in which ways?
说到人工智能，它会让社会传染变得更强还是更弱，或者以何种方式？
I would bet that it’s going to make social contagion weaker.
我敢打赌这会让社会传染减弱。
Why?
为什么？
Because we’re leaving the age of information and entering what I would call the age of intelligence.
因为我们正在离开信息时代，进入我所说的智能时代。
AI, to give one example, I think, will lead to highly customized, personalized education and learning experiences.
举一个例子，我认为人工智能将带来高度定制、个性化的教育和学习体验。
People being able to construct and follow.
人们能够构建和遵循。
If you’re an autodidact, I think it will be very good for you because you’ll be able to follow ideas to the end.
如果你是一个自学成才的人，我认为这对你来说非常有好处，因为你将能够遵循想法到底。
We used to have to just read the footnotes and try to track down obscure books.
我们过去只能阅读脚注并尝试找出晦涩难懂的书籍。
I think AI will make that process a lot easier and more exciting.
我认为人工智能将使这个过程变得更加容易和更加令人兴奋。
That is not a mimetic process.
这不是一个模仿的过程。
It’s not a social contagion process.
这不是一个社会传染过程。
That is using the AI to follow your own intellectual interests.
那就是利用人工智能来追随你自己的智力兴趣。
I could probably think of other ways that it will make us less contagious, but that’s just one of them.
我可能会想到其他方法来降低我们的传染性，但这只是其中之一。
That might be part of what flips us out of the pessimism?
这可能是让我们摆脱悲观情绪的部分原因？
I think so.
我想是的。
Is that new emancipation?
这就是新的解放吗？
I’m incredibly excited by that.
我对此感到非常兴奋。
I’m thinking about my own writing and my own work.
我正在思考我自己的写作和我自己的工作。
I’ve got all kinds of blind spots and limitations.
我有各种各样的盲点和限制。
When I write something or when I’m thinking about something, asking the AI, what are all the implications of what I’ve said here to a bunch of domains of life that I don’t really know that much about, I’m always amazed by what it says.
当我写东西或思考某事时，询问人工智能，我在这里所说的对我不太了解的生活领域的所有影响是什么，我总是对它所说的感到惊讶。
On declining Anthropic's invitation
拒绝 Anthropic 的邀请
What’s the story behind you declining to work for Anthropic?
您拒绝为 Anthropic 工作背后的故事是什么？
Well, it wasn’t to work for them, just to set the record straight.
好吧，这并不是为了为他们工作，只是为了澄清事实。
Not to work for pay, but to confer with them, right?
不是为了工资而工作，而是为了与他们协商，对吗？
Just to confer with them, yes.
只是为了与他们商量，是的。
There’s a lot that I don’t want to say, but I can tell you more than I think I’ve said so far.
有很多话我不想说，但我可以告诉你的比我认为迄今为止已经说的更多。
Sure.
当然。
I always probe people’s motivations.
我总是探究人们的动机。
In this case, I had a back and forth with some folks at Anthropic.
在这种情况下，我和 Anthropic 的一些人进行了反复讨论。
I was asking basic questions like, what’s next after this?
我问了一些基本问题，比如，接下来会发生什么？
They basically invited 14, 15 people out for a couple of days to comment on Claude’s constitution.
他们基本上邀请了 14、15 个人出去玩几天，对克洛德的宪法发表评论。
I think they were all Christians, and they were interested in virtue ethics and what Christianity might have to add to the development of making Claude be good.
我认为他们都是基督徒，他们对美德伦理以及基督教可能需要添加什么来使克劳德变得善良感兴趣。
I asked basic questions like, “What do you mean by be?
我问了一些基本问题，比如“你说的是什么意思？
Philosophically, like that.
从哲学上来说，就是这样。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
What does it mean for Claude to be good?
克劳德优秀意味着什么？
It seems like your discovery of virtue ethics, and they were using the word discernment, is you’ve landed on something that Ignatius and the Jesuits had figured out 500 years ago.
看起来你发现了美德伦理，他们使用了“洞察力”这个词，你已经发现了伊格内修斯和耶稣会士 500 年前就已经弄清楚的东西。
What’s next?
接下来是什么？
Is it just the two days, and what comes after that?” The more that I talked to them—people do this all the time; it’s why people like to meet the pope, for instance—I didn’t know how genuine it was.
只是这两天，之后呢？”我和他们聊得越多——人们总是这样做；例如，这就是为什么人们喜欢会见教皇——我不知道它有多真诚。
I thought that they were looking for a way to say, “We did this thing, we conferred with some Christians, we’re the good guys, we’re building the good AI.” Then the way that it was pitched to me was very much like, if I care about the future and the good of humanity, then this is definitely something that I could do.
我认为他们正在寻找一种方式来表达：“我们做了这件事，我们与一些基督徒进行了协商，我们是好人，我们正在构建优秀的人工智能。”然后向我推销的方式就像是，如果我关心未来和人类的福祉，那么这绝对是我可以做的事情。
It was framed like a moral imperative, not only by people at Anthropic, but even by people that know me, by fellow Christians.
它被视为一种道德命令，不仅被 Anthropic 的人，甚至被认识我的人、基督徒同胞所制定。
I said, “I do think I have some moral responsibilities, and there’s some moral imperatives in my life, but flying out to San Francisco to consult for Anthropic for free is not one of them.” I don’t think that makes me a bad person.
我说：“我确实认为我有一些道德责任，我的生活中有一些道德要求，但飞到旧金山免费为人类咨询公司提供咨询并不是其中之一。”我不认为这让我成为一个坏人。
It was just in the communication with them, I felt like something was off.
只是在和他们的交流中，我就感觉有些不对劲。
On the widening gap between men and women
论男女差距的扩大
Just philosophically, putting aside your theological views, but what do you think of effective altruism as a normative philosophy?
就哲学而言，抛开你的神学观点，但你如何看待有效利他主义作为一种规范哲学？
That has guided, at least, some parts of AI production, right?
这至少指导了人工智能生产的某些部分，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
It seems to have guided many parts of it.
它似乎指导了其中的许多部分。
I think ultimately it hasn’t proved very successful in doing some of the things that it set out to do.
我认为最终它在做它打算做的一些事情上并没有被证明非常成功。
I guess when we go back to the beginning of effective altruism, I’m unclear on how effectiveness is defined by each person that practices it in different ways.
我想当我们回到有效利他主义的开始时，我不清楚每个以不同方式实践利他主义的人如何定义有效性。
I don’t think that there’s enough conversation on what the goals really are, and it’s—and this will not surprise you—ultimately very materialistic and doesn’t account for things like the quality of relationships, depth, culture.
我认为关于目标的真正含义还没有进行足够的讨论，而且它最终非常唯物主义，并且没有考虑到关系的质量、深度、文化等因素，这不会让你感到惊讶。
The things that can be measured, usually with effective altruism, are often not the things that I think are most important in life.
可以衡量的事情，通常是有效的利他主义，往往不是我认为生活中最重要的事情。
If I ask you a question like, why do men and women seem to be so far apart these days, politically and aesthetically, you think you would have a better answer to that than the effective altruists would.
如果我问你这样的问题，为什么现在男人和女人在政治和审美上似乎差距如此之大，你认为你会比有效的利他主义者得到更好的答案。
What’s their answer to that question?
他们对这个问题的答案是什么？
I’m not sure, but what’s your answer?
我不确定，但你的答案是什么？
I’m not sure if that’s true.
我不确定这是否属实。
It’s political polarization.
这是政治两极分化。
If you poll them on politics, men are more right-wing.
如果你对他们进行政治民意调查，就会发现男性更偏右。
Oh, we’re talking specifically about politics.
哦，我们正在专门谈论政治。
Women are more left-wing, but as you know, measured sex seems to be going down; certainly, childbearing, which we measure pretty well, is going down.
女性更加左翼，但如你所知，节制的性行为似乎正在下降。当然，我们很好地衡量的生育率正在下降。
Marriage is a more complicated story, but for some socioeconomic groups, it’s down.
婚姻是一个更复杂的故事，但对于一些社会经济群体来说，它正在下降。
There’s just much less dating.
只是约会的次数少了很多。
Everyone claims the dating apps are broken.
每个人都声称约会应用程序坏了。
There was a piece in New Statesman about, in Britain, angry young women are very upset at the men that they encounter.
《新政治家》中有一篇文章说，在英国，愤怒的年轻女性对她们遇到的男人感到非常不安。
It just seems to be worse than usual, the gap between men and women?
只是好像比平时更严重了，男女之间的差距？
Yes.
是的。
I think technology is largely to blame for that, the way that it sorts things that it thinks men should see versus things that women should see.
我认为造成这种情况的主要原因是技术，它对男性应该看到的东西和女性应该看到的东西进行了分类。
It increases the political polarization for everybody, but in particular, between the genders, I think that it plays a huge role.
它增加了每个人的政治两极分化，但特别是在性别之间，我认为它发挥着巨大的作用。
I think that the way that men and women even meet each other, the way that dating works, is very, very different than the way that it used to be.
我认为男人和女人见面的方式，约会的方式，与以前的方式非常非常不同。
We often sort based on what we think our preferences are before we’ve had a chance to encounter a flesh and human person of the opposite sex, and perceptions are formed, often wrongly.
在我们有机会遇到一个有血有肉的异性之前，我们经常根据我们认为自己的偏好进行分类，并且形成看法，但往往是错误的。
The woman that I eventually married, I never would have found her if I was using a dating app, for instance.
例如，如果我使用约会应用程序，我最终娶的那个女人，我永远不会找到她。
I think technology has exacerbated some of the false perceptions that we have about the opposite sex and what people believe.
我认为科技加剧了我们对异性和人们信仰的一些错误看法。
That’s especially true when it comes to men and women because the algorithms, the way that the social contagion works, it knows that we are different.
对于男性和女性来说尤其如此，因为算法、社会传染的运作方式，它知道我们是不同的。
We are men and women, and it exacerbates all of the differences and doesn’t do much to promote common understanding.
我们是男人和女人，这加剧了所有差异，并且对促进共识没有多大作用。
I believe that men and women are complementary, different but complementary, and that’s not necessarily a very popular view anymore.
我相信男人和女人是互补的，不同但互补，但这不一定是一个非常流行的观点。
On anti-mimetic postures, jazz, and porn
关于反模仿姿势、爵士乐和色情
At what point does being anti-mimetic itself become a mimetic identity, and do you see some signs of that in Silicon Valley?
在什么时候，反模仿本身就会成为一种模仿的身份，你在硅谷看到了一些迹象吗？
Everyone’s supposed to be contrarian.
每个人都应该是逆向思维。
There’s a kind of false contrarianism.
有一种错误的逆向主义。
You don’t even know anymore what’s a contrarian point of view.
你甚至不知道什么是逆向观点。
Are we at that stage with Girardianism?
我们正处于吉拉德主义的那个阶段吗？
I think Girard would be relatively mortified that mimetic theory was very mimetic and so popular.
我认为吉拉德会因为模仿理论非常模仿而且如此流行而感到相对羞愧。
I think he himself worried about that, and that was a running joke while he was still alive in his circle at Stanford.
我想他本人也担心这一点，当他还在斯坦福大学的圈子里时，这是一个流传甚广的笑话。
I do think it’s an issue.
我确实认为这是一个问题。
It goes back to why I said we shouldn’t think about it too much.
这又回到了为什么我说我们不应该想太多。
The book is titled The One and the Ninety-Nine.
这本书的名字是《一与九十九》。
The message, as you know from having read it, is not that everybody should become a rugged individualist and that the goal is to become the one.
正如您从阅读中了解到的那样，它传达的信息并不是每个人都应该成为一名坚定的个人主义者，而我们的目标就是成为这样的个人主义者。
I think that’s incredibly dangerous.
我认为这非常危险。
It’s actually, in a world where all of the focus is on the one, maybe we need to think more actually about the 99 and the relationship between the one and the 99 and the way that the group and the self affect one another.
事实上，在一个所有焦点都集中在“一”的世界里，也许我们需要更多地思考“99”以及“一”和“99”之间的关系，以及群体和自我相互影响的方式。
I think the focus has actually swung way too far in the direction of the one.
我认为焦点实际上已经在这个方向上偏离得太远了。
I mean, all of us are the one in some sense, but the challenge of today is how do we live in communities without clustering in communities where everybody shares the same values and thinks the same things?
我的意思是，从某种意义上说，我们所有人都是同一个人，但今天的挑战是，我们如何生活在社区中，而不聚集在每个人都有相同价值观和想法的社区中？
Those are the most boring communities for me.
这些对我来说是最无聊的社区。
I don’t want to be in one of those communities, but I get invited to them almost on a daily basis, and I usually decline.
我不想加入其中一个社区，但我几乎每天都会收到邀请，但我通常会拒绝。
Let’s say we put you in charge, either of the government or of certain voluntary norms, and you can change one thing.
假设我们让你负责政府或某些自愿规范，你可以改变一件事。
What’s the thing you would change within the realm of it being somewhat feasible?
在可行的范围内你会改变什么？
In charge as a political leader or a CEO?
作为政治领袖或首席执行官负责？
You can either be dictator, or you can be pope, or you can just be the most influential person on moral norms, and you can change one thing.
你可以成为独裁者，或者你可以成为教皇，或者你可以成为道德规范上最有影响力的人，你可以改变一件事。
If I were the dictator of the United States—my fiscally conservative friends will hate this one—I think we lack mediating intermediary institutions between individuals in the state and that communities, places are healthier to the extent that they have these odd places in between, whether third places or just intermediary institutions.
如果我是美国的独裁者——我在财政上保守的朋友们会讨厌这个——我认为我们缺乏在州内个人和社区之间进行调解的中介机构，社区、地方只要有这些奇怪的地方就更健康，无论是第三个地方还是只是中介机构。
I would probably find a good musician in every city who had some entrepreneurial spirit and was interested in bringing people together—let’s call it cities with over 100,000 people—and I would give them startup funds to open jazz clubs in every single city, and I would fund them from my government.
我可能会在每个城市找到一位优秀的音乐家，他有一定的创业精神，并且有兴趣将人们聚集在一起——我们称之为人口超过 100,000 的城市——我会给他们启动资金，让他们在每个城市开设爵士俱乐部，我会从政府那里资助他们。
I would do probably a public campaign to encourage—actually, I don’t know; maybe the public campaign would backfire on me because nobody likes being told what to do.
我可能会发起一场公开活动来鼓励——事实上，我不知道；也许公众运动会对我产生适得其反的效果，因为没有人喜欢被告知该做什么。
Become too mimetic.
变得过于模仿。
Forget that part.
忘记那部分。
I think jazz clubs in every city would go a long way toward helping men and women.
我认为每个城市的爵士乐俱乐部都会在帮助男性和女性方面大有帮助。
It would probably actually go a long way toward something nothing like jazz and alcohol to help men and women learn to like each other.
实际上，这可能会对爵士乐和酒精之类的东西帮助男人和女人学会互相喜欢有很大帮助。
Changing a voluntary social norm, what would you pick?
改变自愿的社会规范，你会选择什么？
Like young men lose interest in pornography?
就像年轻人对色情内容失去兴趣一样？
That one I’d definitely want to change.
我肯定想改变这一点。
What’s at the top of your list?
您的首要任务是什么？
It gives us a sense of your priorities.
它让我们了解您的优先事项。
It is.
这是。
You named one that is at the top of my list.
你提到的一个是我名单上的第一位。
I think it’s absolutely destroying young men and women.
我认为这绝对是在摧毁年轻男女。
The data is very clear that women are watching a lot of porn, too.
数据非常清楚地表明，女性也观看大量色情内容。
I think that there are certain things that should be made taboo.
我认为有些事情是应该禁忌的。
Porn is taboo in the sense that nobody talks about it.
色情是禁忌，因为没有人谈论它。
I actually bring it up often in my class because the data are something like 90 percent of the men in my class are watching porn, and not quite that number with the women.
事实上，我在班上经常提到这个问题，因为数据显示，我班上 90% 的男生都在看色情片，而女生的比例则不高。
I’ll often bring it up in class, and then I’m shocked at how many students over the course of a few years actually come talk to me about it.
我经常在课堂上提起它，然后我惊讶地发现，几年来有多少学生实际上来和我谈论它。
I’m actually relatively in favor of introducing friction into the process and how easy that stuff can be found.
事实上，我相对赞成在这个过程中引入摩擦，以及找到这些东西是多么容易。
It’s being found by accident.
这是偶然发现的。
There was a story in the Free Press last year.
去年《自由报》曾报道过这样一个故事。
I think it was a 13-year-old girl found it by accident.
我认为这是一个13岁的女孩偶然发现的。
She said the discovery of it has become like a rite of passage for people, and it’s not even one that they’re seeking.
她说，它的发现已经成为人们的一种成人仪式，甚至不是他们正在寻找的。
It just happens to them.
这只是发生在他们身上。
I think there has to be some friction introduced in that process, and I would do that.
我认为在这个过程中必须引入一些摩擦，我会这样做。
In Girardian terms, is there going to be a scapegoat that leads to catharsis for us, or things remain unresolved?
用吉拉德的话说，是否会有一个替罪羊为我们带来宣泄，或者事情仍然悬而未决？
My understanding of Girard is that that world is gone, the world in which we can have a scapegoat that will lead to catharsis.
我对吉拉德的理解是，那个我们可以找替罪羊来宣泄的世界已经消失了。
We’re past that.
我们已经过去了。
We’ve seen too much.
我们见过太多了。
One of his fundamental points is that Christianity has created the conditions for the runaway violence precisely because the scapegoats don’t work anymore.
他的基本观点之一是，基督教为失控的暴力创造了条件，正是因为替罪羊不再起作用。
On Genoa, Naples, and societal escape fantasies
关于热那亚、那不勒斯和社会逃避幻想
Are we still in a Christian society, ideologically?
从意识形态上来说，我们仍然处于基督教社会吗？
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
I think even people that would consider themselves very secular have obviously adopted a lot of Christian ideas, in the West, I assume you mean.
我认为即使是那些认为自己非常世俗的人也显然采纳了很多基督教思想，我想你是指在西方。
Sure, but say Japan.
当然可以，但要说日本。
Is Japan going to have a scapegoat?
日本会成为替罪羊吗？
It would be more likely for Japan to have a scapegoat than for any country in the West.
日本比任何西方国家更有可能成为替罪羊。
I think we’re very much in a Christian society, and there are some people on the integralist right that don’t realize how Christian of a society we actually do live in.
我认为我们很大程度上生活在一个基督教社会中，而有些整合论右派的人并没有意识到我们实际上生活在一个社会中是如何基督教化的。
You must know Rod Dreher.
你一定认识罗德·德雷尔。
What do you think of The Benedict Option?
您如何看待本尼迪克特选项？
Withdraw.
提取。
I want to do Rod justice, and I think it’s easy to strawman Rod and say that he’s just recommending that everybody move to a small farm.
我想为罗德伸张正义，而且我认为很容易对罗德说他只是建议每个人搬到一个小农场。
I don’t think that’s what he’s saying.
我不认为他是这么说的。
I think what he gets right is that every person, every family—my wife and I are thinking through this right now—is going to have to probably, in the world of social contagion, if it’s as bad as some people think that it is, and I think that there are many things that are bad, will have to take certain actions to protect themselves.
我认为他说得对的是，每个人、每个家庭——我和我的妻子现在正在考虑这个问题——在社会传染的世界里，如果情况像某些人认为的那么糟糕，而且我认为有很多不好的事情，他们可能必须采取某些行动来保护自己。
If I don’t want my children watching porn at a very young age, there’s certain things that I’m going to have to do, and it will involve putting boundaries between them and the broader culture.
如果我不想让我的孩子在很小的时候看色情片，我就必须做一些事情，这将涉及在他们和更广泛的文化之间划定界限。
I don’t think it can be very prescriptive.
我不认为它是非常规范的。
I think everybody’s case is very unique.
我认为每个人的情况都很独特。
I don’t plan to move to Montana, but other people might.
我不打算搬到蒙大拿州，但其他人可能会。
They have the internet in Montana.
他们在蒙大拿州有互联网。
I would worry all the more in Montana, right?
我在蒙大拿州会更担心，对吗？
They have great internet in Montana.
他们在蒙大拿州有很棒的互联网。
I think that we live in a relatively Manichean society.
我认为我们生活在一个相对摩尼教的社会。
There’s a desire for purity.
有一种对纯洁的渴望。
I think the desire for purity is relatively dangerous.
我认为对纯洁的渴望是比较危险的。
It’s my disposition, I think it’s my wife’s disposition, to roll up my sleeves and just deal with the messy world.
这是我的性格，我想这是我妻子的性格，卷起袖子去应对这个混乱的世界。
I’ve noticed that every time in my life where I’ve tried to flee it in some way, I’ve actually ended up less happy.
我注意到，在我的生活中，每次我试图以某种方式逃离它时，我实际上都变得不那么快乐。
I’m not saying you’ll ever do it, but what does your escape fantasy look like?
我并不是说你会这么做，但你的逃脱幻想是什么样的？
One of mine is I’ll go live in a third-tier city in Mexico.
我的想法之一是我要住在墨西哥的一个三线城市。
I’m not going to do it, but sometimes I think about it.
我不会这么做，但有时我会想。
Cost of living would be very low.
生活成本会非常低。
The food would be amazing.
食物会很棒。
I could improve my Spanish.
我可以提高我的西班牙语水平。
It is moving to Genoa with my family, making my US income, living in Italy.
我和家人一起搬到热那亚，在美国赚取收入，住在意大利。
I love Italy.
我爱意大利。
I love the food.
我喜欢这里的食物。
I love the people.
我爱人民。
I love the culture.
我喜欢这种文化。
I feel lighter while I’m there.
当我在那里时，我感觉更轻松。
I laugh more.
我笑得更多了。
We eat dinner later.
我们稍后吃晚饭。
I love everything about it.
我喜欢它的一切。
It would probably be living in Italy for the most part, or at least making that my home base, brushing up on my Italian, working less.
可能大部分时间都生活在意大利，或者至少把那里当作我的大本营，温习意大利语，工作更少。
Why Genoa?
为什么是热那亚？
It’s a wonderful city.
这是一座很棒的城市。
It’s still medieval, right, in a funny way?
它仍然是中世纪的，对吧，以一种有趣的方式？
It’s medieval.
这是中世纪的。
I think it’s the most underrated city in Italy.
我认为这是意大利最被低估的城市。
In Italy, I mean, yes.
在意大利，我的意思是，是的。
I agree.
我同意。
Yes.
是的。
I think it’s the most underrated city.
我认为这是最被低估的城市。
You agree.
你同意。
I took my wife there.
我带着我的妻子去了那里。
She was stunned.
她惊呆了。
“How come no one goes to Genoa?” She was telling me.
“怎么没人去热那亚？”她是在告诉我。
It’s close to Cinque Terre.
离五渔村很近。
It’s this city that’s elevated.
这座城市海拔较高。
It has a fascinating history.
它有一段迷人的历史。
It was still a very functional port city.
它仍然是一个功能齐全的港口城市。
It was really the most important city in Italy, arguably the world, during when Spain was a great power.
在西班牙强国时期，它确实是意大利最重要的城市，可以说是世界上最重要的城市。
It’s very cosmopolitan.
这是非常国际化的。
It reminds me of Marseille a little bit.
这让我有点想起马赛。
It’s vertical, breathtaking views.
这是垂直的、令人惊叹的景色。
The people there, they’re not very touristy.
那里的人不太热衷于旅游。
The Italians there seem indifferent to you as a tourist.
那里的意大利人似乎对你这个游客漠不关心。
It just feels very, very homey.
感觉非常非常温馨。
It’s so close to a lot of other great things in Italy.
它与意大利的许多其他伟大事物非常接近。
You can get to Torino relatively easily.
您可以相对轻松地到达都灵。
That whole area up there, Bra, where the Slow Food movement originated, you’re just in striking distance from everything.
布拉，那里是慢食运动的发源地，这里与一切事物都近在咫尺。
Nobody I know that goes to Italy goes to Genoa.
据我所知，去意大利的人中没有人去热那亚。
I plead with them.
我恳求他们。
I’m like, “Please, just go to Genoa.”
我想，“拜托，去热那亚吧。”
I am the exception.
我是例外。
My wife sometimes talks of wanting to live in the smaller towns nearby, which we’re not going to do because we’re slated for a third-tier city in Mexico, but we’re not going to do that either.
我妻子有时会说想要住在附近的小城镇，但我们不会这么做，因为我们计划去墨西哥的一个三线城市，但我们也不会这么做。
I sometimes think of Northern Italy as a place where there were fewer different dimensions for mimetic desire.
我有时认为意大利北部是一个模仿欲望较少的地方。
That is, more people dress the same.
也就是说，更多的人穿着相同。
There are fewer status dimensions, maybe less room for eccentrics compared to America.
与美国相比，地位维度更少，怪人的空间可能更小。
Do you think that’s true, or do you think I’m off base?
你认为这是真的吗，还是你认为我的说法有误？
Paris is a bit like this also.
巴黎也有点像这个。
There’s a certain notion of what kind of shoes an Italian man should wear.
意大利男人应该穿什么样的鞋子有一定的概念。
They wear them, and they’re amazing, and actually more affordable than here.
他们穿着它们，而且它们很棒，而且实际上比这里更便宜。
There’s a sameness to some things.
有些事情有相似之处。
I don’t think the sameness is a bad thing.
我不认为相同是一件坏事。
I think the sameness is very charming.
我认为相同是非常有魅力的。
The sprezzatura of an Italian man, the way that an Italian man dresses, something I’ve never been able to pull off in my life.
意大利男人的潇洒、意大利男人的着装方式，这是我一生中从未实现过的。
For those that don’t know what that sprezzatura means, it means you put tremendous care into putting on an outfit that looks like you didn’t think about it at all, and somehow it comes together and looks amazing.
对于那些不知道 sprezzatura 意味着什么的人来说，这意味着你在穿上一套看似你根本没有考虑过的服装时付出了巨大的努力，但不知怎的，它组合在一起看起来令人惊叹。
Even that seems highly mimetic to me, the idea of sprezzatura.
即便如此，对我来说，sprezzatura 的想法似乎也是高度模仿的。
I love Naples.
我爱那不勒斯。
Naples is maybe my second-favorite city in Italy.
那不勒斯可能是我在意大利第二喜欢的城市。
It’s my second favorite, too.
这也是我第二喜欢的。
Maybe it’s my favorite.
也许这是我的最爱。
That and Genoa, to me, are the two undiscovered, less discovered gems.
对我来说，那和热那亚是两颗未被发现、较少被发现的宝石。
It makes sense why we get along.
我们相处的原因是有道理的。
Nobody goes to Naples either.
也没有人去那不勒斯。
It’s too dirty.
太脏了。
It’s endless.
这是无止境的。
I’ve heard all the excuses.
我听过所有的借口。
It’s become somewhat more popular, though.
不过，它变得更受欢迎了。
There’ve been some New York Times articles.
纽约时报有一些文章。
The food has drawn some people, I think.
我认为食物吸引了一些人。
My test for whether or not I’ll get along with somebody is their reactions to Naples after they’ve been there.
我是否会与某人相处的标准是他们去过那不勒斯后对那里的反应。
That’s my number one test.
这是我的第一个测试。
To the Northern Italian question, there’s a great book on Italy, if you haven’t read it.
对于意大利北部的问题，如果你还没有读过的话，有一本关于意大利的好书。
It’s called The Italians by Luigi Barzini in the ’60s.
上世纪 60 年代，路易吉·巴尔齐尼 (Luigi Barzini) 创作了《意大利人》(The Italians)。
It’s just a fantastic book.
这真是一本很棒的书。
I think that the North has a little bit less of the animated Italian gestures and spectacle that you get in the South.
我认为北方的意大利动画姿态和景观比南方少一些。
It’s a little more reserved.
这是比较保守一点的。
I would say that because of that, it’s less mimetic than the South.
我想说，正因为如此，它不像南方那样模仿。
I think that disposition, that flamboyant way of being, is the more mimetic thing about the South, about Naples.
我认为这种性格、那种浮夸的存在方式，是南方、那不勒斯更具模仿性的。
Speaking of Barzini, what do you think of his hypothesis that the face an Italian will show you, in terms of level of cheeriness, depends on how your status is perceived?
说到巴尔齐尼，你如何看待他的假设，即意大利人向你展示的面孔，就快乐程度而言，取决于你的地位如何被感知？
He thinks they’re somewhat of a sad people, but they seem happy to outsiders because they put on that face for the higher-status outsiders.
他认为他们是一个有点悲伤的民族，但在外人看来，他们似乎很高兴，因为他们在地位较高的外人面前摆出这张脸。
I wouldn’t disagree with Barzini on Italian culture, so I’m not going to disagree with him on that.
我不会不同意巴尔齐尼对意大利文化的看法，所以我也不会不同意他的观点。
He knows Italians much better than I do.
他比我更了解意大利人。
I think that the face in Italy, maybe it’s like the smile in Thai.
我觉得意大利的脸，也许就像泰国人的微笑。
There’s 1,000 different smiles, and they all mean something different.
微笑有 1000 种不同的含义，它们都有不同的含义。
Italians are incredibly good at reading the face and facial expressions, but I think they have a different standard for foreigners like me than they do for each other.
意大利人非常擅长解读面部和面部表情，但我认为他们对像我这样的外国人的标准与对彼此的标准不同。
On Italian Catholicism
论意大利天主教
How is Italian Catholicism different?
意大利天主教有何不同？
Depends on what part of Italy you’re in.
取决于你在意大利的哪个地区。
Say, Genoa, whatever part you know best.
说吧，热那亚，无论你最了解哪个部分。
I think that, having spent a few weeks there very recently and went to mass quite a few times—I was there during Holy Week—it is aesthetically very different.
我认为，最近在那里呆了几周，并参加了好几次弥撒——我在圣周期间在那里——从美学上来说，这是非常不同的。
You typically will walk into a very old church that has no heating or AC, has absolutely terrible acoustics, and you’ll find people wandering in and out, like you would in an orthodox church.
你通常会走进一座非常古老的教堂，没有暖气或空调，音响效果非常糟糕，你会发现人们进进出出，就像在东正教教堂一样。
It’s like walking around.
就像到处走走一样。
I would say that it’s relatively low liturgy compared to what you see.
我想说，与你所看到的相比，这是相对较低的礼拜仪式。
A lot of the revival in Catholicism here in the US are high-liturgy things.
美国天主教的许多复兴都是高礼仪的事情。
I actually found it to be somewhat difficult.
其实我觉得有点困难。
I couldn’t even hear the priests most of the time because the sound system is really bad.
大多数时候我什至听不到牧师的声音，因为音响系统真的很糟糕。
I think that the liturgy is really the test for me about everything else that’s going on, and that’s the sacramental life.
我认为礼拜仪式对我来说确实是对正在发生的其他一切的考验，这就是圣礼生活。
The first thing I notice about any Catholic church is how many times they offer confession.
关于任何天主教堂，我注意到的第一件事就是他们进行忏悔的次数。
I look at it right away, and I can tell you 10 other things about that same church and predict it with a very high degree.
我立即查看它，我可以告诉你关于同一座教堂的其他 10 件事，并以非常高的程度进行预测。
What does that tell you?
这告诉你什么？
Let’s say they offer confession frequently.
假设他们经常忏悔。
What do you then infer?
那么你推断出什么呢？
I infer that it’s thriving.
我推断它正在蓬勃发展。
One could say they offer confession frequently because they just have a lot of people there that believe in the sacrament of confession.
人们可以说他们经常提供忏悔，因为他们那里有很多人相信忏悔圣事。
I think it’s quite the opposite.
我认为事实恰恰相反。
It turns out from every priest that I’ve talked to that if you offer confession frequently, maybe a few times a week or daily, the lines just start to form.
与我交谈过的每一位牧师都表明，如果你频繁地忏悔，也许每周或每天几次，队伍就会开始形成。
It’s actually quite the opposite.
事实上恰恰相反。
You’ll have a lot of priests that just start offering it more.
你将会有很多牧师开始提供更多的东西。
The extremes are confessions available by appointment only on Saturdays versus confession before every mass.
极端的情况是只能在周六预约忏悔，而不是每次弥撒前忏悔。
That is the number one signal for me, and then how often they have adoration.
这对我来说是第一个信号，然后是他们崇拜的频率。
This is Catholic inside baseball here.
这里是棒球场内的天主教徒。
It is like politics.
这就像政治。
If I know your position on gun control, I can, with a high degree of accuracy, predict your position on 10 other clustered things.
如果我知道你在枪支管制方面的立场，我就可以高度准确地预测你在其他 10 个聚集事物上的立场。
Why is it that, at least in formal terms, Italy has become so nonreligious?
为什么意大利（至少在形式上如此）变得如此非宗教化？
I get that underneath the cultural structure, it may be quite Catholic still, but the number of people who go to church or who profess, say, a belief in the Trinity seems fairly low.
我明白，在文化结构之下，它可能仍然是天主教徒，但去教堂或自称信仰三位一体的人数似乎相当低。
How did that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
It seems like they’re almost tired of their Catholicism.
看起来他们几乎厌倦了天主教。
They’ve had it for so long.
他们已经忍受了这么久了。
It almost seems like cultural Judaism to me.
对我来说，这几乎就像文化犹太教。
It’s maybe like the familiarity breeds contempt.
也许熟悉会滋生轻蔑。
I don’t know, but that’s the sense that I get.
我不知道，但这就是我的感觉。
Like some politics in Italy, I think Mussolini had something to do with it, the Christian Democrats.
就像意大利的一些政治一样，我认为墨索里尼与基督教民主党有关。
I think that it was such a part of their identity for so long, it wasn’t handed down by the last few generations, and there’s just a sense in which it has become cultural.
我认为这长期以来一直是他们身份的一部分，并不是最近几代人传承下来的，从某种意义上说，它已经成为文化。
I met many Italians on this last trip that would make the sign of the cross if they heard an ambulance drive by or they walked by an image of Madonna on a street corner or something like that, but they probably haven’t been to mass in years.
我在上次旅行中遇到了很多意大利人，如果他们听到救护车驶过，或者走过街角的麦当娜像或类似的东西，他们就会做出十字的手势，但他们可能已经很多年没有参加过弥撒了。
This has become very cultural.
这已经变得非常有文化了。
I don’t know why, but I think that they’re tired.
我不知道为什么，但我觉得他们累了。
What was it like living next to Vatican City?
住在梵蒂冈城旁边是什么感觉？
Speaking of this, I was mortified when one day I had to walk directly by St. Peter’s very often just to get home up on the Janiculum Hill.
说到这里，当有一天我不得不经常直接步行经过圣彼得教堂才能回到贾尼库鲁姆山的家时，我感到很羞愧。
I walked by St. Peter’s one day and I didn’t look at it, I didn’t think about it, and then I was mortified and I realized it was too late to go back because I had to be somewhere.
有一天我路过圣彼得大教堂，我没有看它，也没有想它，然后我感到羞愧，我意识到回去已经太晚了，因为我必须去某个地方。
Rome can be a very difficult place to live as a person of faith.
对于有信仰的人来说，罗马可能是一个非常困难的地方。
When I got there, somebody said, Rome will either strengthen your faith or lose it as a Catholic because you will see the dark underbelly of everything.
当我到达那里时，有人说，罗马要么会增强你的信仰，要么会失去作为天主教徒的信仰，因为你会看到一切的黑暗弱点。
You will see a lot of worldliness and you will either come out of it with a more supernatural vision of what the church is or you will come out of it with your tail between your legs, really worried about things.
你会看到很多世俗，你要么带着对教会的更超自然的异象走出去，要么夹着尾巴走出去，真的很担心事情。
For me, it was really not one of those two extremes.
对我来说，这确实不是这两个极端之一。
It was like I came out of it not that much different than when I went in.
就好像我出来时和进去时没有太大不同。
It was probably the three most formative years of my life when I lived next to the Vatican because it was an incredibly strange situation.
当我住在梵蒂冈旁边时，这可能是我一生中最具成长性的三年，因为那是一种极其奇怪的情况。
I was a 31-year-old man who had owned my own house in Las Vegas and suddenly lived in what was essentially a dormitory with 250 other men, most of them younger than me.
我是一个 31 岁的男人，在拉斯维加斯拥有自己的房子，突然间和另外 250 名男人一起住在一个基本上是宿舍的地方，其中大多数比我年轻。
The typical age for a seminarian is 20, 25 probably, with a shared bathroom on every floor.
神学院学生的典型年龄是 20 岁，可能是 25 岁，每层楼都有共用浴室。
Talk about a relatively mimetic environment where we share so much in common.
谈论一个相对模仿的环境，我们有很多共同点。
I would also say because of that, it was one of the funniest places that I’ve ever been because one of the ways that you learn to live in a situation like that is through comedy.
我也想说，正因为如此，这是我去过的最有趣的地方之一，因为你学会在这样的情况下生活的方式之一就是通过喜剧。
On not becoming a priest
论不成为牧师
Why didn’t you become a priest?
你为什么没有成为一名牧师？
John Henry Newman said that one should never tell the story of their conversion or their vocational discernment between tea and dessert.
约翰·亨利·纽曼说，人们永远不应该讲述他们的转变或他们对茶和甜点的职业辨别的故事。
It’s just too complex of a question.
这个问题太复杂了。
The easy answer that I’ll give you, it’s not a cop-out, is that I carefully discerned for a number of years that it was not what I felt like I was being called to do.
我会给你一个简单的答案，这不是逃避，多年来我仔细地认识到，这不是我觉得我被要求做的事情。
I’ll tell you one of the little parts of that story that helped me realize that.
我将告诉你这个故事中帮助我认识到这一点的小部分之一。
I was studying theology at a pontifical university in Rome, right in Piazza Navona.
我当时在罗马纳沃纳广场的一所宗座大学学习神学。
I was on my way to a fundamental theology class in my second year in Rome.
在罗马的第二年，我正在去上基础神学课。
I was having nagging doubts.
我一直有一个挥之不去的疑问。
Something felt a little bit off in my discernment process.
在我的辨别过程中，感觉有些不对劲。
It turned out that there was a Matthew Luhn who was a Pixar animator.
原来，有一个马修·卢恩，是皮克斯的动画师。
He played an instrumental role in the development of the first Toy Story.
他在第一个玩具总动员的开发中发挥了重要作用。
He was a storyboard guy.
他是一个擅长故事板的人。
He worked with all of these guys at Pixar.
他在皮克斯与所有这些人一起工作。
He happened to be in Rome giving a master class on storytelling that day.
那天他碰巧在罗马讲故事的大师班。
This is a very typical Italian story.
这是一个非常典型的意大利故事。
The venue you’re supposed to give the workshop at in Rome did not allow him in due to some kind of bureaucratic maintenance of the building.
由于建筑物的某种官僚维护，你应该在罗马举办研讨会的场地不允许他进入。
Very Italian already.
已经很意大利了。
It’s incredibly Italian.
这是令人难以置信的意大利。
He had to find an emergency place to hold his workshop, and he held it at my pontifical university.
他必须找到一个紧急地点来举办他的研讨会，他在我的宗座大学举办了它。
I don’t know the backstory there, but he was there.
我不知道那里的背景故事，但他在那里。
I saw a sign, “Matthew Luhn, Pixar, storytelling master class.” It was not cheap.
我看到一个牌子，“马修·卢恩，皮克斯，讲故事大师班。”它并不便宜。
All these Italians paid to go.
所有这些意大利人都是花钱去的。
I talked my way in, and I skipped class, and I went to the storytelling class that day.
我自己就进去了，然后我就逃课，那天我去上讲故事课。
I was so lit up by that class that I realized that there was something in me that craved this creative, artistic, aesthetic thing.
那堂课让我深受启发，我意识到我内心有某种东西渴望这种创造性、艺术性、审美性的东西。
I think it ruined theology for me for the rest of the year.
我认为这毁了我这一年余下时间的神学。
Aesthetics trumped theology?
美学胜过神学？
Von Balthasar wrote a whole aesthetic treatise, the theological aesthetics.
冯·巴尔塔萨（Von Balthasar）写了一篇完整的美学论文，即《神学美学》。
Theology and aesthetics go hand in hand, really.
神学和美学确实是齐头并进的。
He understood the whole story of the incarnation, like the acts of a play.
他了解转世的整个故事，就像戏剧一样。
I think that I’m very much a von Balthasar Catholic in the sense that I do see a lot of the goodness and beauty and aesthetic characteristics of the church as related to truth.
我认为我在很大程度上是冯·巴尔塔萨天主教徒，因为我确实看到了与真理相关的教会的许多善良、美丽和美学特征。
It’s one of the ways that we can come to the truth is through beauty.
我们通过美来认识真理的方法之一。
On beauty, enchantment, and the Gnostic sheep
关于美丽、魅力和诺斯替教羊
Aesthetically, what is it in Christianity that’s most important to you personally?
从审美角度来说，基督教中对你个人来说最重要的是什么？
If it were me—I’m not Christian—but I might say Bach’s B minor mass or maybe Monteverdi’s Vespers.
如果是我——我不是基督徒——但我可能会说巴赫的B小调弥撒或者蒙特威尔第的晚祷曲。
What would you say?
你会说什么？
Aesthetically, it is the liturgy.
从美学上来说，这就是礼拜仪式。
It is a beautifully celebrated Catholic mass.
这是一场美丽而著名的天主教弥撒。
I’m not one of these pre-Vatican II guys where I think that the Latin mass is the only real mass.
我不是梵蒂冈二世之前的那些人之一，我认为拉丁弥撒是唯一真正的弥撒。
I do think that is incredibly beautiful, though.
不过，我确实认为那是非常美丽的。
I go to it every once in a while because I think it’s very beautiful.
我偶尔会去那里，因为我觉得那里非常漂亮。
I actually came back to my faith through that practice.
通过这次练习，我实际上恢复了我的信仰。
It’s not one particular thing or piece of artwork for me; it is the beauty of the ritual.
对我来说，这不是一件特别的事情或一件艺术品；它是我的作品。这是仪式的美丽。
We’ve lost ritual in the world today in many cases.
当今世界，我们在很多情况下都失去了仪式。
Seeing that, seeing the reverence, seeing a church full of people shoulder to shoulder on their knees in itself is beautiful to me.
看到这一点，看到人们的崇敬，看到教堂里挤满了肩并肩跪着的人，这对我来说本身就是美丽的。
I remember just seeing everybody drop to their knees for the first time when I went back to mass after not having gone in a very long time.
我记得当我在很长一段时间没有参加弥撒后回到弥撒时，第一次看到每个人都跪下。
I remember being struck by that’s not something I would see anywhere else in the world.
我记得我对此感到震惊，这是我在世界其他任何地方都不会看到的。
If I speak to people who are Ethiopian Christians or maybe Egyptian Coptic Christians, possibly Armenian Christians, they will communicate a sense that somehow they’re in tune with an earlier, more fundamental Christianity than what we have in many other places.
如果我与埃塞俄比亚基督徒或埃及科普特基督徒，可能是亚美尼亚基督徒交谈，他们会传达一种感觉，即他们在某种程度上与比我们许多其他地方更早、更基本的基督教相一致。
Does that argument carry any weight with you?
这个论点对你有影响吗？
Are you tempted by that or no?
你是否受到诱惑？
A little bit.
一点点。
I don’t think that it’s true, but I’m very attracted to orthodoxy, to the liturgy.
我不认为这是真的，但我对正统观念和礼拜仪式很感兴趣。
It is incredibly beautiful.
它非常美丽。
Even the divider that they have, where the priest consecrates the Eucharist behind a wall, there’s a sense of mystery and transcendence to that I really like.
即使是他们的分隔物，牧师在墙后祝圣圣体圣事，也有一种我真正喜欢的神秘感和超越感。
I think the world could use more sense of mystery and more otherness.
我认为这个世界可以使用更多的神秘感和更多的差异性。
I think one of the things that worries me a lot about the church today is that the church has become highly mimetic with the world.
我认为当今教会最让我担心的一件事是教会已经变得高度模仿世界。
You have priests and influencers, they’re on TikTok performing skits and things like that.
有牧师和有影响力的人，他们在 TikTok 上表演短剧之类的东西。
I think it’s incredibly unhelpful because there needs to be a level of otherworldliness, alterity, that I think the Eastern Orthodox liturgy preserves in a way even better than the new Mass, the Novus Ordo does.
我认为这是极其无益的，因为需要有一定程度的超凡脱俗、相异性，我认为东正教礼拜仪式在某种程度上比新弥撒、新秩序更好地保留了这一点。
Do we need Protestantism in America to keep print culture front and center?
美国是否需要新教来保持印刷文化的前沿和中心？
Isn’t Catholic culture in some ways too visual or too theatrical, and the Protestant impulse is very good for broader society because print is a more thoughtful medium?
天主教文化在某些方面是否过于视觉化或过于戏剧化，而新教的冲动对更广泛的社会非常有好处，因为印刷品是一种更有思想的媒介？
I love my Protestant brothers and sisters, so I don’t want them to go away.
我爱我的新教兄弟姐妹，所以我不希望他们离开。
I might want them all to become Catholic, but I think that many, many great things have come out of this tension.
我可能希望他们都成为天主教徒，但我认为这种紧张关系已经产生了很多很多伟大的事情。
I think generally good things do come out of tension, and yes, the church is oral to more of an extent than Protestantism is.
我认为一般来说，好的事情确实会从紧张中产生，是的，教会在某种程度上比新教更多地是口头的。
I think it’s interesting now because we’re entering a world in which—I’m a big fan of Marshall McLuhan—but it seems to me like the traditional forms of written word, even traditional essays, that is changing incredibly fast in the world that we’re entering.
我认为现在很有趣，因为我们正在进入一个世界——我是马歇尔·麦克卢汉的忠实粉丝——但在我看来，传统的书面形式，甚至是传统的散文，在我们正在进入的世界中正在以惊人的速度变化。
AI is just going to change the form of that, so I don’t know where that goes.
人工智能只会改变它的形式，所以我不知道它会走向何方。
Now, you and Ross Douthat, you both self-identify as Catholics.
现在，您和罗斯·杜塔特（Ross Douthat）都自认为是天主教徒。
He’s been on this podcast several times.
他已经多次出现在这个播客上。
We’ve talked about religious issues.
我们讨论过宗教问题。
If you had to pin down exactly where your religious vision of Catholicism differs from his in as fundamental a manner as possible, how would you describe that?
如果你必须尽可能从根本上明确你对天主教的宗教看法与他的不同之处，你会如何描述？
He might take more of a rationalist approach than I do.
他可能比我采取更多的理性主义方法。
And I believe in faith and reason, as John Paul II said, are like two wings by which one rises to the contemplation of the truth.
我相信信仰和理性，正如约翰·保罗二世所说，就像两只翅膀，通过它们，人们可以上升到对真理的沉思。
It goes back, for me, I mentioned, aesthetics and beauty, so it’s the witness of the saints that initially attracted to me.
我提到，对我来说，它可以追溯到美学和美丽，所以最初吸引我的是圣人的见证。
It was the beauty, it was the tradition, the continuity of the church and the world through such a long time.
这是美丽，这是传统，是教会和世界在这么长的时间里的连续性。
Reading the lives of the saints as a witness, for me, that has always been the first step, not trying to think my way to it.
作为见证人阅读圣人的生活，对我来说，这一直是第一步，而不是试图思考我的方式。
I think Augustine had this beautiful phrase of faith seeking understanding.
我认为奥古斯丁有这句美丽的信仰寻求理解的短语。
What I’m not saying is that we should not see—because the church has a wonderful intellectual tradition—but I’m less of an apologetics guy, maybe.
我并不是说我们不应该看到——因为教会有一个美妙的知识传统——但也许我不是一个护教学者。
I think the best chance that I have to help somebody see what I see in the church is not to try to convince them of the argument of why Christianity is true, which is the only good reason to be Christian, in my opinion.
我认为，我帮助别人了解我在教会中所看到的最好的机会不是试图说服他们相信基督教为何是真实的，在我看来，这是成为基督徒的唯一好理由。
It’s to take them to Rome, and bring them inside a beautiful church to witness a beautiful mass, to drink a lot of good wine, and have conversations late into the night about the good, the true, and the beautiful.
就是带他们去罗马，带他们走进一座美丽的教堂，见证一场美丽的弥撒，喝很多美酒，谈论善、真、美，直到深夜。
That, to me, is the more circuitous route.
对我来说，这是更迂回的路线。
Maybe it’s not the fastest route, but I would say it’s more of an aesthetic approach.
也许这不是最快的路线，但我想说这更像是一种美学方法。
If the world today is enchanted, or we should think of it as enchanted, what are the most literal manifestations of that?
如果当今世界是被施了魔法的，或者我们应该认为它是被施了魔法的，那么最直接的表现是什么？
Of course, it would be the world itself, but specific things.
当然，这将是世界本身，但具体的事物。
Are there miracles happening commonly, or how do you think about specific events within that framework?
奇迹是否经常发生，或者您如何看待该框架内的特定事件？
I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a Marian apparition in my lifetime, like a big one.
如果我的一生中出现玛丽安的幽灵，就像一个大幽灵，我不会感到惊讶。
I don’t know if it’ll be Our Lady of Guadalupe, but I think that sometimes, the enchantment requires that people need to be open to enchantment to see it.
我不知道它是否会是瓜达卢佩圣母，但我认为有时，这种魔力要求人们需要对魔力持开放态度才能看到它。
There are enchanting things going on all around us.
我们周围发生着令人着迷的事情。
The world is not necessarily becoming more enchanted.
世界并不一定会变得更加迷人。
It’s us that are perceiving and noticing the things to be enchanted by.
是我们在感知和注意到那些令人着迷的事物。
That’s why I say maybe I just have a sense that maybe there will be some openness to things that seem supernatural.
这就是为什么我说也许我只是有一种感觉，也许人们会对看似超自然的事物持开放态度。
I don’t know nearly enough about this.
我对此了解还不够。
Speaking of Ross, I know that he’s fascinated by the question of UFOs—
说到罗斯，我知道他对不明飞行物问题很着迷——
Sure.
当然。
UAPs, yes.
UAP，是的。
—but it seems as if even this discourse that we’re in right now points to a desire for some extraterrestrial, supernatural, enchanted things.
——但似乎我们现在所处的这个话语也指向了对某些外星的、超自然的、迷人的事物的渴望。
We’re really trying to find them, and we’re having a hard time.
我们真的很想找到他们，但我们遇到了困难。
J.
J。
D.
D .
Vance said he thought they were demons.
万斯说他认为他们是恶魔。
I don’t agree with that, but I don’t find it crazy.
我不同意这一点，但我并不觉得这很疯狂。
I don’t find it crazy either, as one who believes in demons.
作为一个相信恶魔的人，我也不觉得这很疯狂。
That’s a better explanation than others that I’ve heard.
这是比我听过的其他解释更好的解释。
Do you think he, and maybe you, have a Manichean approach to Christianity, if demons are relevant?
如果恶魔与相关的话，你认为他，也许还有你，对基督教有摩尼教的态度吗？
Well, demons are fundamental to Christianity.
嗯，恶魔是基督教的基础。
The gospels are full of stories of Jesus driving out demons.
福音书中充满了耶稣赶鬼的故事。
The Gerasene demoniac is the most famous example of that.
格拉森恶魔就是最著名的例子。
He says, “We are legion,” and this is the quintessential gospel story where the demonic has and always has an element of contagion because the entire herd is infected by this demon and is driven off into the sea.
他说，“我们是军团”，这是典型的福音故事，其中恶魔总是具有传染性，因为整个牛群都被这个恶魔感染并被赶进了海里。
There’s nothing Manichean about that to me, living in a world where demons are real, where evil is real, and exorcisms are real.
对我来说，这与摩尼教无关，生活在一个恶魔真实存在、邪恶真实存在、驱魔真实存在的世界里。
I’ve known my fair share of exorcists, and they seem to be on the rise, by the way, from what the data shows.
我认识相当多的驱魔师，顺便说一下，从数据显示的情况来看，他们似乎正在增加。
Most of it’s anecdotal.
大部分都是轶事。
I don’t know how rigorously they’re actually tracked.
我不知道他们实际上被追踪得有多严格。
I think they are by the church, but that is not public data.
我认为它们是由教会提供的，但这不是公开数据。
Anecdotally, it seems like they’re on the rise.
有趣的是，它们似乎正在上升。
Manichean is kind of there’s good, and then there’s evil, and we have to purify.
摩尼教是有善有恶，我们必须净化。
Just admitting a world that might have the demonic element in it, there’s nothing Manichean about that.
只是承认一个可能存在恶魔元素的世界，这与摩尼教毫无关系。
If you think of Shiite Islam, which sometimes is compared a bit to Catholicism, relative to Sunni Islam at least, do you feel any affinity to that approach?
如果你想到什叶派伊斯兰教，有时会与天主教进行比较，至少相对于逊尼派伊斯兰教，你是否对这种方法有任何兴趣？
Obviously, it’s missing the Trinity and Jesus and many other fundamental things from your point of view, but is there any kinship?
显然，从你的角度来看，它缺少三位一体和耶稣以及许多其他基本的东西，但是有任何亲属关系吗？
I don’t know enough about Shiite Islam.
我对伊斯兰教什叶派了解不够。
What would be one thing that might be similar to Catholicism about it?
与天主教相似的一件事是什么？
The world being enchanted, things and truths being hidden, and the multiplication of intermediaries as a way to get to those truths seem to me much more Catholic, if I had to say, and Sunni Islam seems much more Protestant with an emphasis on the Quran itself.
如果我不得不说的话，世界被施了魔法，事物和真理被隐藏，以及中介机构的增加作为获得这些真理的方式，在我看来更像是天主教徒，而逊尼派伊斯兰教似乎更像是新教，强调《古兰经》本身。
Well, given what you’ve just shared, I probably would be if I learned more about it.
好吧，考虑到你刚刚分享的内容，如果我了解更多的话，我可能会这么做。
Seems to share some elements.
似乎共享一些元素。
The idea that there are truths that are hidden is something I would like to just drill down on just for a second, because in Catholicism, it’s that the truth has basically been revealed fully in the person of Jesus Christ.
我想深入探讨一些隐藏的真理，因为在天主教中，真理基本上已经在耶稣基督身上得到了充分的揭示。
The alternative to that is Gnosticism, which is generally the idea that there’s always some hidden truth.
另一种选择是诺斯替主义，它通常认为总有一些隐藏的真相。
It’s like Scientology.
这就像山达基教。
There’s always this one more thing.
总是还有这样一件事。
If you just learn this next thing, then that’s the pathway to salvation is more and more knowledge.
如果你只是学习接下来的事情，那么拯救之路就是越来越多的知识。
Very interestingly, when I read the parable of the lost sheep in the gospels, where Jesus tells the story of a shepherd that has 100 sheep.
非常有趣的是，当我读到福音书中迷失的羊的寓言时，耶稣讲述了一个牧羊人有100只羊的故事。
One of them goes missing, is lost.
其中一个失踪了，失踪了。
He leaves the 99 to go find it and brings it back.
他离开99去寻找它并把它带回来。
There is a Gnostic gospel of Thomas version of that same parable.
同一个寓言有一个诺斯替教的多马福音版本。
In the Gnostic gospel of Thomas, the sheep is not a sinner that Jesus finds.
在多马的诺斯替福音中，羊并不是耶稣发现的罪人。
The one lost sheep was the smartest sheep.
那只迷失的羊是最聪明的羊。
When Jesus finds the one, he does not bring him back to the flock.
当耶稣找到那个人时，他并没有把他带回羊群中。
He pats him on the head and praises him for not being like all of the other sheep, for being smart enough to forge his own way, and to leave the herd and the crowd, and all of the other dumb sheep.
他拍拍它的头，称赞它不像其他所有的羊，因为它足够聪明，能够开辟自己的道路，离开牛群和人群，以及所有其他愚蠢的羊。
Now, that is the Gnostic interpretation, just to be clear.
需要澄清的是，这是诺斯替教的解释。
I find it very, very interesting and very indicative of the times that we live in today, where I think people would be more attracted to the Gnostic interpretation than the traditional one.
我发现它非常非常有趣，非常能体现我们今天生活的时代，我认为人们会比传统的诺斯替派解释更容易被诺斯替派的解释所吸引。
The revelation of Jesus, again, within a Christian framework, it’s not fully transparent.
耶稣的启示，在基督教的框架内，并不是完全透明的。
There’s four Gospels.
有四本福音书。
They have some differences, if only of emphasis.
即使只是侧重点不同，它们也有一些差异。
There was a period where there’s an Avignon papacy.
曾经有一段时间，有一位阿维尼翁教皇。
You can count on the church to interpret, but there’s a claim that there’s two popes, who’s the real pope, which is the real church.
你可以指望教会来解释，但有一种说法是有两个教皇，谁是真正的教皇，这才是真正的教会。
One way or another, people had to make up their minds.
无论如何，人们必须做出决定。
Isn’t there room again for hiddenness in that framework, even if you adhere to a Catholic perspective as fully as you might try to?
即使你尽你所能地完全坚持天主教的观点，在这个框架中是否又存在隐藏的空间？
Yes.
是的。
One of the exciting things about the faith, and being Catholic, is the adventure of navigating a spiritual life and a religious life that ultimately is your own.
关于信仰和成为天主教徒的令人兴奋的事情之一就是探索最终属于你自己的精神生活和宗教生活的冒险。
One part of the tradition that I always find interesting is personal divine revelation to individuals.
我一直觉得有趣的传统之一是对个人的个人神圣启示。
This goes to the heart of the question, the hidden.
这触及了问题的核心，即隐藏的问题。
Sister Faustina is a very famous Polish saint.
福斯蒂娜修女是一位非常著名的波兰圣人。
She was a nun.
她是一名修女。
She died in her 20s, lived in a convent, barely left her whole life.
她二十多岁时去世，住在修道院里，几乎没有离开过她的一生。
Then, when she died, there were just diaries and diaries filled with personal conversations that she claimed to have with Jesus.
然后，当她去世时，只剩下日记和日记，里面充满了她声称与耶稣的私人谈话。
This is where the divine mercy, the famous painting.
这就是神慈悲的地方，著名的画作。
She said that Jesus actually showed her how he would like to be depicted in the painting to show the world his divine mercy.
她说，耶稣实际上向她展示了他希望如何在画中被描绘，以向世界展示他神圣的怜悯。
That’s an example of this personal revelation, which the church has probed and decided that it’s worthy of sharing and belief.
这是个人启示的一个例子，教会对此进行了探讨并认为它值得分享和相信。
The hiddenness is certainly there.
隐藏性肯定是存在的。
On the political right these days, why do you think there’s now so much mimetic antisemitism?
在当今的政治右翼中，你认为为什么现在有这么多模仿的反犹太主义？
It seems to have come from nowhere.
它似乎不知从何而来。
Maybe that’s an incorrect impression, but haven’t you been shocked by how much there is, and how open it’s become?
也许这是一个错误的印象，但你有没有对它的数量和开放程度感到震惊？
I’ve been totally shocked by it.
我对此感到非常震惊。
What happened?
发生了什么？
Scandalized by it.
被它丑闻了。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I hate to think that it’s always been there.
我讨厌认为它一直都在那里。
There’s two ways I think that one could explain it.
我认为有两种方法可以解释它。
It’s either always been there, and something has happened that makes people show their true colors.
要么一直就在那里，发生了一些事情才让人露出了本来面目。
I hope that version of the story is not true.
我希望这个故事的版本不是真的。
The other version of the story, which I think imputes less culpability to people, is that there is some crazy mimetic thing happening right now.
这个故事的另一个版本，我认为将较少的罪责归咎于人们，是现在正在发生一些疯狂的模仿事件。
It’s cool to be edgy or something like that and to say things.
表现出急躁或类似的态度并说出一些话是很酷的。
You’ve got Nick Fuentes.
你有尼克·富恩特斯。
I think he’s incredibly influential, especially to a younger generation, and that it is a mimetic thing that, hopefully, people will snap out of once it’s been exposed for what it really is.
我认为他具有难以置信的影响力，尤其是对年轻一代，而且这是一种模仿的东西，希望一旦它的真实面目暴露出来，人们就会重新振作起来。
On what Wall Street taught him
华尔街教给他的东西
The Luke Burgis production function.
卢克·布尔吉斯生产函数。
What did you learn in your Wall Street years?
你在华尔街的岁月里学到了什么？
How much I hate working on Wall Street.
我多么讨厌在华尔街工作。
I learned that efficient markets theory is BS.
我了解到有效市场理论是废话。
All of the things that I learned in a very good undergraduate business school did not actually seem to be used in the day-to-day.
我在一所非常好的本科商学院学到的所有东西实际上似乎并没有在日常中使用。
Maybe it was because I was a lowly analyst at an investment bank.
也许是因为我是一家投资银行的低级分析师。
If I had worked at a hedge fund, I would have been enthralled by seeking alpha.
如果我在对冲基金工作，我会着迷于寻求阿尔法。
Unfortunately, I didn’t get to do that as an analyst who just put together pitch decks and built financial models in Excel.
不幸的是，作为一名分析师，我无法做到这一点，只是在 Excel 中整理融资方案并构建财务模型。
I learned that I wanted to take risks, and I couldn’t wait to take those risks, so I did not spend very long on Wall Street.
我知道我想要冒险，而且我迫不及待地想冒险，所以我没有在华尔街待太久。
It was less than two years that I actually worked on Wall Street.
我真正在华尔街工作还不到两年。
I left when I started my first company.
当我创办第一家公司时我就离开了。
What did you learn starting those businesses in Italy?
您在意大利创办这些企业学到了什么？
Well, I never started a business in Italy.
嗯，我从未在意大利创业过。
You ran them from Italy?
你从意大利跑过来的？
No, no, I was in Italy as a seminarian.
不，不，我在意大利当神学院学生。
Okay.
好的。
I ended up walking away from a company in my late 20s to take up some time off, and that eventually led me to enter the seminary as I was on the pathway to becoming a priest.
我最终在二十多岁的时候离开了一家公司去休息一段时间，这最终导致我进入神学院，因为我正走在成为一名牧师的道路上。
I did organize my life so that I was on a board while I was there.
我确实安排了自己的生活，这样我在那里的时候就加入了董事会。
I didn’t let go completely, but I let go of all of the operational stuff.
我没有完全放下，但我放下了所有操作性的东西。
It was still a little distracting for me as I was trying to study philosophy and theology, and then would get reports about something super technical going on a few thousand miles away back home.
这对我来说仍然有点分散注意力，因为我正在努力学习哲学和神学，然后会收到关于几千英里外的家乡发生的超级技术事件的报告。
I slowed down a lot in Italy.
我在意大利放慢了很多。
Being an entrepreneur is incredibly difficult because nobody ever tells you to stop, and there’s always something else to do.
成为一名企业家非常困难，因为没有人告诉你停下来，而且总是有其他事情要做。
It helped me bring some balance back into my life.
它帮助我恢复了生活的平衡。
Is there a book that the current Luke would recommend to the 23-year-old Luke that he would have hated but you still think he should have been reading?
有没有一本书是现在的卢克会推荐给23岁的卢克，他本来会讨厌的，但你仍然认为他应该读的书？
Byung-Chul Han, The Burnout Society, I would have hated that book as a 23-year-old.
Byung-Chul Han，《倦怠协会》，如果我是 23 岁的人，我会讨厌这本书。
I remember having an older investment banker come speak to me when I was a senior and tell me that I was gung-ho.
我记得当我还是一名大四学生时，一位年长的投资银行家来找我谈话，并告诉我我很热心。
I was saying, “If I can come work at Goldman Sachs, I’ll work 80-hour weeks, I’ll sleep in the office.” He really walked me back from all of that language.
我当时说，“如果我能来高盛工作，我会每周工作 80 小时，我会睡在办公室。”他真的把我从所有这些语言中拉了回来。
He was like, “Young man, that’s really not what you want to do.
他说：“年轻人，这真的不是你想做的事。
That’s not really the best approach here.” I thought he was really lame.
这并不是最好的方法。”我以为他真的很蹩脚。
I thought, “This guy, he’s not going to make it.” He wasn’t that old.
我想：“这个家伙，他不会成功的。”他没那么老。
He’d been doing it for a few years.
他已经这样做了几年了。
I thought that he was just not ambitious enough.
我认为他只是不够雄心勃勃。
The Burnout Society would have been a struggle for me.
职业倦怠协会对我来说是一场斗争。
What part of Silicon Valley, if any, do you secretly admire more than perhaps your audience expects from you?
硅谷的哪一部分（如果有的话）让你暗自钦佩的程度超出了你的观众对你的期望？
I really admire people getting together to build things, usually, without sorting by things like political preference.
我真的很钦佩人们聚集在一起建造东西，通常不按照政治偏好等因素进行排序。
The thing that I love about Silicon Valley is solving real problems in the world with the best people you can find working in small teams together—wish the church did more of this, should do more building, maybe, and less talking about the ethics of AI—to actually try to build things, experiment with things.
我喜欢硅谷的一点是，与你能找到的最优秀的人一起在小团队中工作，解决世界上的实际问题——希望教会做更多这样的事情，也许应该做更多的建设，而不是谈论人工智能的道德——真正尝试建造东西，试验东西。
I think the church probably needs a workshop in Rome to actually start building things.
我认为教会可能需要在罗马设立一个工作室才能真正开始建造东西。
You can speak much more intelligently about it.
你可以更明智地谈论它。
I admire so many things about Silicon Valley.
我很欣赏硅谷的很多东西。
I miss the energy of it.
我想念它的能量。
DC is very different energy.
直流电是一种非常不同的能量。
It has created a culture.
它创造了一种文化。
There are some parts of it that I think can be dangerous, but San Francisco is still the most important city in the world, particularly because of the AI boom, because it’s never been replicated anywhere else.
我认为其中的某些部分可能很危险，但旧金山仍然是世界上最重要的城市，特别是因为人工智能的繁荣，因为它从未在其他任何地方复制过。
I think there’s a reason for that.
我认为这是有原因的。
On Michigan
密歇根州
Why do you remain personally so tied to the state of Michigan?
为什么您个人仍然与密歇根州如此紧密地联系在一起？
Well, I spend my summers in Michigan, most of my summers.
嗯，我的夏天大部分时间都在密歇根度过。
I think it’s the greatest state in the country.
我认为这是这个国家最伟大的州。
It has a lake that looks like an ocean when you’re standing on it.
它有一个湖，当你站在湖上时，它看起来就像一片海洋。
There’s something about the Midwest that I’ll never be able to take it out of me, even having lived in big cities.
中西部有一种东西让我永远无法把它从我身上夺走，即使我住在大城市。
My dad was a truck driver.
我的父亲是一名卡车司机。
My mom was a grade school art teacher and artist.
我的妈妈是一名小学美术老师和艺术家。
There’s kind of an earthiness, and it was great growing up there.
有一种朴实的感觉，在那里长大真是太好了。
I hated it at the time, but now I think about how wonderful it was to have to go through the four seasons every year.
当时我很讨厌这样，但现在我想，每年都要经历四个赛季是多么美妙的事情。
Where did you grow up, exactly in Michigan?
你在哪里长大，确切地说是在密歇根？
Grand Rapids, Michigan, on the west side of the state.
密歇根州大急流城，位于该州西侧。
Scraping the ice off of the windshield at seven o’clock in the morning on my way to school.
早上七点在去学校的路上刮掉挡风玻璃上的冰。
All of those things, I think, they do form some character.
我认为，所有这些事情确实形成了某种性格。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I love the grittiness.
我喜欢坚韧不拔的感觉。
I love Detroit.
我爱底特律。
I’m a little partial to the West side of Michigan just because that’s where I’m from.
我有点偏爱密歇根州的西区，因为那是我来自的地方。
I’ve suffered as a Detroit Lions fan my entire life.
作为底特律雄狮队的球迷，我一生都在受苦。
I think that the Upper Peninsula is one of the hidden gems in the entire world.
我认为上半岛是全世界隐藏的宝石之一。
I don’t know if you’ve ever been to the UP.
不知道你有没有去过UP。
Of course, it’s wonderful.
当然，这很棒。
It’s just wonderful.
这真是太棒了。
Highly underrated—
被严重低估——
It’s highly underrated.
它被严重低估了。
—like Genoa.
——就像热那亚一样。
Yes.
是的。
I try not to talk about Michigan too much because Northern Michigan, like the Traverse City area, is getting written up in the New York Times, which I hate to see anytime I see it, because it is wonderful.
我尽量不过多谈论密歇根州，因为密歇根州北部，就像特拉弗斯城地区一样，正在《纽约时报》上报道，我每次看到它都不愿意看到它，因为它太棒了。
Prices are totally out of control, so I should probably just stop talking about all the wonderful things about Michigan.
价格完全失控，所以我可能应该停止谈论密歇根州的所有美好事物。
On the Cluny Institute
关于克鲁尼学院
Now, your own Cluny Institute, do you think of it as closer to a monastery, a salon, a talent network, a way of organizing a Christian counter elite, all of those?
现在，你自己的克鲁尼学院，你是否认为它更接近修道院、沙龙、人才网络、组织基督教反精英的方式，所有这些？
How’s the way you would present what it is or what it does?
您将如何展示它是什么或它有什么作用？
I would think of it as trying to build a talent network and forming a kind of artist colony and workshop for people that have a religious sense or sensibility, that are open to the transcendent, that are smart, that care about serious ideas, and that want to build real things in the world, that really care about the vector of innovation.
我认为这是试图建立一个人才网络，并为那些有宗教意识或情感的人形成一种艺术家群体和工作室，他们对超然事物持开放态度，他们聪明，他们关心严肃的想法，他们想要在世界上建立真实的东西，他们真正关心创新的载体。
It’s not just building, but it’s like a step back, what should we be building?
这不仅仅是建造，而是退后一步，我们应该建造什么？
Trying to find as many of those people as possible in the world.
试图在世界上找到尽可能多的这样的人。
It’s got a couple of different functions.
它有几个不同的功能。
One of them is it’s trying to operate as a bat signal, putting things out into the world that bring the right people out of the woodwork.
其中之一是它试图像蝙蝠信号一样运作，将事物推向世界，将合适的人从木制品中带出来。
That’s certainly happening.
这肯定正在发生。
Then there’s a part of it where I want to work with people that are able to work at the intersection of what I call Athens, Jerusalem, and Silicon Valley.
然后，我想与那些能够在我所说的雅典、耶路撒冷和硅谷交汇处工作的人一起工作。
We don’t have to silo those things.
我们不必将这些东西孤立起来。
I think that Silicon Valley, for instance, would be healthier if it actually wasn’t as allergic to religious thinking, for instance.
例如，我认为，如果硅谷实际上对宗教思想不那么过敏的话，它会更健康。
I think religious thinking could do Silicon Valley a lot of good.
我认为宗教思维可以给硅谷带来很多好处。
I’m betting that if we can begin to find that network, and invest in that talent network, that 10 or 20 years from now, it will be building some of the most important things in the world.
我敢打赌，如果我们能够开始找到这个网络，并投资于这个人才网络，那么从现在起的 10 年或 20 年后，它将构建出世界上一些最重要的事物。
I don’t just mean companies.
我指的不仅仅是公司。
I mean cultural things, aesthetic things, workshops, things that will produce new forms of community, maybe even a model for a new institution.
我指的是文化事物、美学事物、研讨会、将产生新的社区形式的事物，甚至可能是新机构的模型。
The reason that I am so struck by the story of the original Cluny is that it was an entirely new kind of institution in its day.
最初的克鲁尼的故事让我如此震惊，因为它在当时是一种全新的机构。
Even legally speaking, right?
即使从法律上来说，对吧？
Its original charter, the guy that gave all of the money renounced his right to have anything to do with the way that it operated.
在其最初的章程中，提供所有资金的人放弃了与其运营方式有任何关系的权利。
It formed a network of over 1,200 Cluniac monasteries.
它形成了一个由 1,200 多个克吕尼修道院组成的网络。
My imagination is struck by, “Well, what does that look like today if we can have networked workshops of people that are all drawing inspiration, and talking about ideas that are open to the religious sense?”
我的想象力受到了启发，“好吧，如果我们能够举办网络研讨会，让人们都汲取灵感，谈论对宗教意义开放的想法，那么今天会是什么样子？”
The original Cluny was also a pioneer of accounting techniques.
最初的克鲁尼也是会计技术的先驱。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
I know that a Franciscan invented double-entry accounting.
我知道方济各会士发明了复式记账法。
I know that, but he wasn’t associated with Cluny.
我知道这一点，但他与克鲁尼没有关系。
There were all kinds of innovations, architectural innovations, agricultural, winemaking innovations that happened.
发生了各种各样的创新，建筑创新、农业、酿酒创新。
It was really the largest church in the world for 300 years, the most important institution in Europe, in my opinion.
在我看来，它确实是 300 年来世界上最大的教堂，也是欧洲最重要的机构。
It was the center of innovation in Europe, out of the liturgical renewal that it instituted, and it welcomed people in.
它是欧洲的创新中心，源于它所制定的礼仪更新，并欢迎人们进入。
Monasteries, the Benedictine tradition, has always been known for hospitality.
修道院是本笃会的传统，一直以热情好客而闻名。
No matter who you were, if you’re sick, if you’re poor, if you’re traveling, if you’re a pilgrim, you could knock on the door, and you would be let in, and you could stay for a day or two or longer, and then you would be sent on your way.
无论你是谁，如果你生病了，如果你贫穷，如果你在旅行，如果你是朝圣者，你可以敲门，你就会被放进去，你可以停留一两天或更长时间，然后你就会被送上路。
Cluny actually popularized the Camino de Santiago.
克鲁尼实际上使圣地亚哥朝圣之路变得流行起来。
They’re the first ones that would send people on the Camino de Santiago.
他们是第一批送人登上圣地亚哥朝圣之路的人。
I could go on and on about all the things that Cluny did, but the people that came into contact with it—it was worldly in the sense that it interacted with politicians, with builders, with the Romanesque, the masons in Italy.
我可以继续谈论克鲁尼所做的所有事情，但与它接触的人——它是世俗的，因为它与政治家、建筑商、罗马式建筑、意大利的石匠互动。
It was incredibly worldly in that it opened its door to all of those people and interacted with them, and then somehow shaped them.
它非常世俗，因为它向所有这些人敞开了大门，与他们互动，然后以某种方式塑造了他们。
Is there a lay version of that?
有普通版本吗？
I’m obviously not trying to build a monastery.
我显然不是想建造一座修道院。
I’m not a monk, but I’m inspired by the way that it existed in the world as a sign of something completely different.
我不是僧侣，但它作为完全不同事物的标志而存在于世界上的方式给我带来了启发。
On dealing with death and what else is next
关于处理死亡以及接下来会发生什么
Before the last two questions, just another plug for your book.
在最后两个问题之前，我想先介绍一下你的书的另一个插件。
The title is The One and the Ninety-Nine: Forging Identity in the Age of Social Contagion.
书名是《一与九十九：在社会传染时代锻造身份》。
Last two questions.
最后两个问题。
First, I’m sure you’ve been following the case of Ben Sasse as of late.
首先，我确信您最近一直在关注本·萨斯的案件。
How do you think you will deal with your pending death?
您认为您将如何应对即将到来的死亡？
I hope I can deal with it as good as he has dealt with his.
我希望我能像他处理他的那样处理好这件事。
It’s interesting because there’s Bryan Johnson in the live forever campaign.
这很有趣，因为布莱恩·约翰逊参与了“永生”活动。
He’s speaking at a conference that I’m hosting this summer, and directly following him as a Benedictine monk who, part of the Benedictine tradition, is literally meditating on your death every single day.
他在我今年夏天主办的一次会议上发表讲话，并作为本笃会修士直接跟随他，作为本笃会传统的一部分，他每天都在冥想你的死亡。
There’s the memento mori.
这是死亡的纪念品。
The tradition of keeping a skull on your desk, which I do.
在你的桌子上放一个头骨的传统，我就是这么做的。
I learned that when I was in seminary.
我在神学院的时候就知道了这一点。
It’s not a macabre-looking skull.
这不是一个看起来令人毛骨悚然的头骨。
It’s actually from Mexico.
它实际上来自墨西哥。
It’s incredibly painted with all these bright colors.
它涂满了所有这些明亮的颜色，令人难以置信。
It is on my desk.
它在我的桌子上。
It’s about this big, but meditating on it and actually going through it are two different things.
这是一件大事，但冥想它和实际经历它是两件不同的事情。
I suppose that my hope is I draw a lot of inspiration from Ben Sasse, that in C.
我想我的希望是从 Ben Sasse 那里汲取很多灵感，在 C.
S.
S。
Lewis’s words, “One should die before they die and die a series of small deaths to our ego.” I’ve certainly had to do that several times in my life.
刘易斯说：“一个人应该在死前死去，并为我们的自我带来一系列的小死亡。”我一生中确实不得不这样做好几次。
I’m sure they won’t be the last, and I think that’s really the key.
我确信他们不会是最后一个，我认为这确实是关键。
I can’t tell you how much I admire him going and talking to people.
我无法告诉你我有多么钦佩他与人交谈。
I can’t remember anybody that has died in public since John Paul II, who really died a slow death in public over many years.
自约翰·保罗二世以来，我不记得有任何人在公开场合去世，他多年来一直在公开场合缓慢死亡。
Unfortunately, Ben Sasse, it’ll probably be much faster.
不幸的是，Ben Sasse，它可能会快得多。
There’s a Catholic tradition of actually praying for a good death.
天主教有一个实际祈祷美好死亡的传统。
It’s to St. Joseph.
是给圣约瑟夫的。
Final question: What will you do next?
最后一个问题：接下来你会做什么？
I plan to be building Cluny for a very long time.
我计划在很长一段时间内建造克鲁尼。
I’ve had an itch for a long time to do something more artistic.
很长一段时间以来，我一直渴望做一些更具艺术性的事情。
I’ve had a novel that I’ve thought about writing for a long time, but it’s not easy to write serious nonfiction, and then flip into a different mode.
我有一本小说，我想写很久了，但要写出严肃的非小说类小说，然后转向不同的模式并不容易。
I don’t know if that will take some kind of detox period from the world of ideas.
我不知道这是否需要一段时间远离思想世界。
Maybe I’ll need to go live in Italy for a year.
也许我需要去意大利生活一年。
I’m really inspired by creating new environments and experimenting with new forms.
创造新环境和尝试新形式确实给我带来了灵感。
I don’t think it’s unrelated to the artistic project, but I feel a really strong desire to do that.
我不认为这与艺术项目无关，但我真的很想这样做。
I hope that Cluny is a place where I can do that out of so I often think of, I am one artist in the colony that is Cluny, and maybe whatever art that I create, whether it’s a novel, a book, or whether it’s a gallery, or some kind of experience, or something like that.
我希望克鲁尼是一个我可以做到这一点的地方，所以我经常想到，我是克鲁尼殖民地中的一位艺术家，也许我创作的任何艺术，无论是一本小说、一本书，还是一个画廊，或者某种体验，或者类似的东西。
It will just be a manifestation of what I hope Cluny will help other people do.
这只是我希望克鲁尼帮助其他人做的事情的体现。
I want to open a restaurant, but I probably won’t do that for another 30 years, until I can afford to lose a lot of money.
我想开一家餐馆，但我可能再过三十年都不会这么做，直到我能承受得起损失很多钱。
That’s in the US or in Italy?
那是在美国还是在意大利？
Probably in Italy.
可能是在意大利。
Luke Burgis, thank you very much.
卢克·布尔吉斯，非常感谢你。
Thanks for having me, Tyler.
谢谢你邀请我，泰勒。