Leopoldo López on Activism Under Autocratic Regimes (Ep. 155)

LEOPOLDO LÓPEZ: Thank you very much, Tyler.

LEOPOLDO LÓPEZ： 非常感谢你，泰勒。

Thank you and your audience.

谢谢你和你的观众。

LÓPEZ: Well, the hardest part was to be doing the municipal activities and improving people’s lives in the middle of political turmoil.

洛佩斯：嗯，最困难的部分是在政治动荡中开展市政活动并改善人们的生活。

My municipality at the heart of Caracas became the heart of the protests against Chávez at the time.

我位于加拉加斯市中心的城市成为当时针对查韦斯的抗议活动的中心。

Very early in my term, in 2002, 2003, it was the epicenter of massive protests against the regime.

在我任期的早期，即 2002 年和 2003 年，这里是针对该政权的大规模抗议活动的中心。

I had to balance that reality of protesting against the regime with doing things for the municipality, and we did extraordinary improvements to the municipality in things that were countercurrent with what was happening elsewhere in Caracas.

我必须平衡抗议政权和为市政当局做事的现实，我们对市政当局做了与加拉加斯其他地方正在发生的事情相反的非凡改进。

For example, we brought down crime statistics to make our municipality a very safe place within a city that was increasing, skyrocketing the crime statistics and the murder rates to become the most violent city in the world — Caracas was at the time.

例如，我们降低了犯罪统计数据，使我们的城市成为一个非常安全的地方，而这个城市正在不断增加，犯罪统计数据和谋杀率飙升，成为世界上最暴力的城市 —— 当时的加拉加斯。

We also improved in a great way all sorts of infrastructure for education, for health, for mobility.

我们还极大地改善了教育、健康和流动性的各种基础设施。

We did a lot of that because we improved the taxation system.

我们做了很多这样的事情，因为我们改善了税收制度。

We created incentives for economic activity, and we became more efficient in the taxation of the municipality, so we became more autonomous from the national government.

我们为经济活动创造了激励措施，我们在市政府的税收方面变得更加高效，因此我们变得更加独立于国家政府。

I was there for eight years.

我在那里待了八年。

I first ran in 2000.

我第一次跑步是在2000年。

I was reelected with more than 80 percent of the votes in 2004.

2004年我以超过80%的选票再次当选。

And I was to become the governor of Caracas, the metropolitan mayor, which is the second most important post in Venezuelan politics at the time, and I was disqualified to run for office for political reasons.

我本来要成为加拉加斯省长，市长，这是当时委内瑞拉政坛第二重要的职位，但由于政治原因，我被取消了竞选公职的资格。

I was taken away from office, so the last time I had an opportunity to run for office was in 2004.

我被撤职了，所以我最后一次有机会竞选公职是在2004年。

LÓPEZ: Well, in terms of people’s perception of what was happening in Venezuela, I can give you an interesting framework of what happened over the past years.

洛佩斯：嗯，就人们对委内瑞拉发生的事情的看法而言，我可以为您提供一个关于过去几年发生的事情的有趣框架。

Up until 2014, when we called for massive street protests against Maduro because he had stolen the presidential election six months before that, most Venezuelans thought of our country as a democracy.

直到2014年，当我们呼吁针对马杜罗举行大规模街头抗议，因为他在六个月前窃取了总统选举权时，大多数委内瑞拉人都认为我们的国家是一个民主国家。

And it was much in the same way that Venezuela was perceived outside: It was a democracy with all sorts of adjectives.

这与外界对委内瑞拉的看法大致相同：它是一个拥有各种形容词的民主国家。

I think, personally, when you start putting adjectives in front of democracy, the democracy is having problems.

我个人认为，当你开始在民主前面加上形容词时，民主就出现了问题。

So it was perceived as a democracy in decline, as a fractured democracy.

因此，它被视为一个正在衰落的民主国家，一个支离破碎的民主国家。

Others spoke about a competitive autocracy, all sorts of ways not to call things by their name, that it was really a dictatorship.

其他人谈到竞争性独裁政权，用各种不直呼其名的方式，说这确实是独裁政权。

When we called for street protest in 2014, and the regime violently repressed thousands of people, there were thousands of people thrown into detention, hundreds of people thrown into prison, thousands of people that were injured, and some that were murdered.

2014年，当我们呼吁街头抗议时，政权暴力镇压了数千人，数千人被拘留，数百人被投入监狱，数千人受伤，还有一些人被杀害。

Dozens of people were murdered by the regime.

数十人被该政权杀害。

The perceptions started to change.

人们的看法开始发生变化。

After 2014, it became very clear for the Venezuelan people that we were facing a dictatorship.

2014年之后，委内瑞拉人民清楚地意识到我们面临着独裁统治。

And Maduro, at the time, had 8 out of every 10 Venezuelans against, and that pattern has sustained ever since.

当时，每 10 个委内瑞拉人就有 8 个反对马杜罗，这种模式从那时起就一直持续着。

LÓPEZ: No, I don’t think so.

洛佩斯：不，我不这么认为。

I think that at first, there might have been a lot of people with good intentions.

我认为一开始可能有很多人是善意的。

This has been a long process.

这是一个漫长的过程。

We are now in year 22 of when this all started, of Chávez winning an election and killing democracy from within, because that’s what happened in Venezuela.

我们现在正处于这一切开始的第 22 年，查韦斯赢得选举并从内部扼杀民主，因为这就是委内瑞拉发生的事情。

At first, he had popular support, and he was able to win several elections, but then democracy was undermined.

起初，他得到了民众的支持，并赢得了几次选举，但后来民主遭到破坏。

Then, with Maduro after Chávez’s death, it became very clear that there was a change, a metamorphosis from a system to a clearly criminal structure.

然后，在查韦斯死后，马杜罗的情况变得非常明显，发生了变化，从一个体系转变为一个明显的犯罪结构。

Venezuela today is a criminal structure, and I’m not exaggerating.

今天的委内瑞拉是一个犯罪结构，我并没有夸大其词。

We can go into details to explain why I’m saying this.

我们可以详细解释我为什么这么说。

The fact is that they have articulated a way in which they just oppress the Venezuelan people, taking out all of the freedom.

事实是，他们已经阐明了一种压迫委内瑞拉人民、剥夺所有自由的方式。

At this point, as you say, concretely, yes, they are cynical; yes, they know they are harming people.

在这一点上，正如你所说，具体来说，是的，他们是愤世嫉俗的；是的，他们知道他们正在伤害人们。

They know they have created a humanitarian crisis of dimensions never seen in the Western Hemisphere.

他们知道他们制造了一场西半球从未见过的人道主义危机。

They know all this, and they are absolutely cynical about everything that they do and the consequences to the Venezuelan people.

他们知道这一切，他们对自己所做的一切以及对委内瑞拉人民造成的后果绝对愤世嫉俗。

LÓPEZ: No, it’s very precise.

洛佩斯：不，它非常精确。

Venezuela, since 20 years ago, fell into the hands of Cuba.

委内瑞拉自20年前就落入古巴手中。

In a way, it’s an invasion.

从某种意义上说，这是一种入侵。

One country colonized another country without shooting a bullet and with the will and the permission of the colonized country, and that’s what happened in Venezuela.

一个国家在没有开枪的情况下，在被殖民国家的意愿和许可下殖民了另一个国家，这就是委内瑞拉发生的事情。

The Cubans have had such a great influence over what happens in Venezuela for a long time.

长期以来，古巴人对委内瑞拉发生的事情有着巨大的影响力。

That influence goes from giving away Venezuelan oil and fuel to Cuba at highly, highly discounted prices — and many times not even being paid — to the influence of the Cuban dictatorship in Venezuela in social programs, in all of the administration of the state, in the intelligence of the state, in the security of Maduro — his detail is Cuban.

这种影响力从以极高的折扣价格向古巴赠送委内瑞拉的石油和燃料——“很多时候甚至没有得到支付”——到古巴独裁政权在委内瑞拉的社会计划、国家行政、国家情报、马杜罗的安全方面的影响力——“他的细节是古巴的。”

The military intelligence and some military strategic issues are also very influenced by Cubans.

军事情报和一些军事战略问题也深受古巴人的影响。

This has a lot to do with long-standing Latin American tradition that has seen Cuba as a reference, but in the case of Venezuela, it became an Open Arms policy to give Cuba the possibility to decide on strategic issues that have to deal with Venezuela.

这与拉丁美洲长期以来将古巴视为参照的传统有很大关系，但就委内瑞拉而言，它成为开放武器政策，让古巴有可能决定必须处理委内瑞拉的战略问题。

LÓPEZ: Well, I think Betancourt, when democracy started, did a very important job in establishing democracy.

洛佩斯：嗯，我认为贝当古在民主开始时在建立民主方面做了非常重要的工作。

I’ll give you a bit of context.

我会给你一些背景信息。

Venezuela has mainly been a military dictatorship for most of our history, or an autocracy.

在我们历史的大部分时间里，委内瑞拉主要是一个军事独裁国家，或者说是一个独裁国家。

And the first time we had a real democracy was in 1947, when there was the direct election of a constituent assembly, and that was Betancourt at the time.

我们第一次真正的民主是在1947年，当时有一个制宪会议的直接选举，那就是当时的贝当古。

Then that government was thrown away by a military coup in 1948, and we had 10 years of dictatorship.

然后这个政府在 1948 年被军事政变推翻，我们经历了 10 年的独裁统治。

Then, when democracy came, there was the writing of a very progressive — in democratic terms — constitution.

然后，当民主到来时，就制定了一部非常进步的——“用民主术语来说”——“宪法”。

We had 40 years of an elected democracy.

我们实行了 40 年的民选民主制度。

In my view, the first 20 years were very positive for Venezuela, but then, in the last 20 years, Betancourt was no longer the president, and there was a decline.

在我看来，前20年对委内瑞拉来说是非常积极的，但后来，在过去20年里，贝当古不再担任总统，委内瑞拉的情况就开始走下坡路。

Many of the reforms that needed to take place didn’t happen.

许多需要进行的改革没有发生。

Also, at the very end, there was a lot of influence by the media, and there was this public opinion that everything had to change in Venezuela.

另外，最后，媒体的影响很大，舆论认为委内瑞拉的一切都必须改变。

And they created this sense of revenge, of vengeance because of some of the economic situations that Venezuela had lived after the 1980s, and that’s what brought Chávez to power.

他们因为 20 世纪 80 年代后委内瑞拉的一些经济状况而产生了这种复仇感，这就是查韦斯上台的原因。

When you think of the history of Venezuela, do you think the decline was inevitable due to the structure of interest groups, the long history of changing constitutions, long history of oligarchy?

当你回顾委内瑞拉的历史时，你是否认为由于利益集团结构、宪法修改的悠久历史、寡头政治的悠久历史，其衰落是不可避免的？

Or was there actually a path where Venezuela becomes a free, fairly prosperous economy?

或者说委内瑞拉实际上有一条成为自由、相当繁荣的经济体的道路吗？

LÓPEZ: Well, I think we had, for sure, many lost opportunities along the way.

洛佩斯：嗯，我认为我们一路上确实失去了很多机会。

There was an incredible economic growth during the after-war period, which coincided with the democratic period after 1958.

战后时期出现了令人难以置信的经济增长，恰逢 1958 年之后的民主时期。

Venezuela became a reference, not just for its democratic system, but also because of the economic prosperity that we had at the time.

委内瑞拉成为一个参考，不仅因为它的民主制度，还因为我们当时的经济繁荣。

During the 1970s, the oil sector was nationalized.

20 世纪 70 年代，石油行业被国有化。

It was nationalized in a very efficient way, but with some folks, it didn’t open up opportunities for Venezuelans to invest in the oil sector, which was the most important sector of our economy.

它以一种非常有效的方式国有化，但对一些人来说，它并没有为委内瑞拉人提供投资石油行业的机会，而石油行业是我们经济中最重要的部门。

We did not diversify the economy in the way we should have, and some of the windfalls that we had during the 1970s and during other oil shocks were not appropriately taken the best use.

我们没有以应有的方式实现经济多元化，而且我们在 20 世纪 70 年代和其他石油危机期间获得的一些意外之财也没有得到适当的利用。

The most important oil windfall we had was actually during the Chávez period, between 2004 and 2014.

我们最重要的石油意外之财实际上是在查韦斯时期，即 2004 年至 2014 年之间。

When Chávez came to power, the price of oil was below $15 per barrel, and during that period, it reached $150 per barrel.

查韦斯上台时，石油价格低于每桶15美元，期间曾达到每桶150美元。

The increase of oil fiscal income to Venezuela in those 10 years was, in real terms, larger than the entire oil fiscal income between 1922 — which was the date when we started exporting oil — to the year 2000.

按实际价值计算，这10年委内瑞拉石油财政收入的增幅比1922年——也就是我们开始出口石油之日——到2000年期间的全部石油财政收入还要多。

That extraordinary windfall was stolen, was given away to corrupt practices, was given away in a petrol diplomacy to get the votes and the support of many countries in Latin America, especially the Caribbean.

这笔非凡的意外之财被偷走，被用于腐败行为，被通过石油外交来获得拉丁美洲，特别是加勒比地区许多国家的选票和支持。

Unfortunately, right after that huge windfall of 10 years — 2004 to 2014 — we opened the gates to the most tragic humanitarian crisis that we have seen in the Western Hemisphere.

不幸的是，就在这十年（2004年至2014年）的巨大意外收获之后，我们打开了西半球最悲惨的人道主义危机的大门。

That led 7,000,000 Venezuelans to flee our country to look for opportunities that were not found in Venezuela, to find food, shelter, medicine, opportunities, and future that were not found.

这导致700万委内瑞拉人逃离我们的国家，去寻找在委内瑞拉找不到的机会，寻找在委内瑞拉找不到的食物、住所、药品、机会和未来。

But it was the year after that economic boom ended that this tragedy started.

但正是在经济繁荣结束的第二年，这场悲剧开始了。

LÓPEZ: Well, I think that I, personally, will always be in favor of a democratic regime, a democratic system that promotes a rule of law, the respect for human rights, the respect of freedoms.

洛佩斯：嗯，我认为我个人将永远支持民主政权、促进法治、尊重人权、尊重自由的民主制度。

I think that’s a priority.

我认为这是一个优先事项。

For me it is, and I believe it’s a priority also for the large, large majority of the Venezuelan people that want to live in a democracy.

对我来说确实如此，而且我相信这也是绝大多数想要生活在民主国家的委内瑞拉人民的首要任务。

However, there has been great mismanagement due to misconceptions of the economy, to a state-led economy that did not open possibilities for a private sector to flourish independently of the state, but also with the level of corruption that we have seen, particularly over the past 22 years — it’s what has led Venezuela to the situation in which we are.

然而，由于对经济的误解，国家主导的经济没有为私营部门独立于国家蓬勃发展提供可能性，而且我们所看到的腐败程度，特别是在过去22年中，导致了委内瑞拉的严重管理不善，这就是导致委内瑞拉陷入目前局面的原因。

In Venezuela, you could argue that we did much, much better economically, and in terms of all of the social and economic standards, than what happened during these last 20 years of autocracy.

在委内瑞拉，你可能会说，我们在经济上以及所有社会和经济标准方面都比过去 20 年的独裁统治时期做得好得多。

This autocracy had the largest windfall and the largest humanitarian crisis.

这个独裁政权拥有最大的意外之财和最大的人道主义危机。

During the democratic period of 40 years, Venezuela became one of the most literate countries in Latin America, with the largest amount of professionals being graduated every year, with the best in social, health, and education standards, vaccination rates, housing programs that were in Latin America.

在40年的民主时期，委内瑞拉成为拉美地区文化程度最高的国家之一，每年毕业的专业人员数量最多，社会、卫生、教育水平、疫苗接种率、住房计划均为拉美地区最好。

So, we did perform much better under the democratic period than has been the performance by any means in the autocratic regimes of the last 22 years.

所以，我们在民主时期的表现确实比过去22年在专制政权下的表现要好得多。

LÓPEZ: Well, there was an immense level of support.

洛佩斯：嗯，得到了巨大的支持。

We saw in the streets hundreds of thousands of people protesting again.

我们再次看到街上有数十万人抗议。

We’ve had many cycles of very intense and long-standing protests.

我们经历过许多轮非常激烈和长期的抗议活动。

In the year 2014, it was six months; 2017, also four months; and in 2019, almost an entire year.

2014年是六个月； 2017年，还有四个月；而2019年，几乎是整整一年。

But then came COVID that paralyzed the country, and there was no gasoline.

但后来新冠疫情让整个国家陷入瘫痪，汽油也没有了。

That also gave the regime of Maduro — and I think this is a global pattern, where we’ve seen that COVID really gave a hand to autocratic regimes to impose more social control.

这也给马杜罗政权带来了影响——我认为这是一种全球模式，我们看到新冠疫情确实助长了独裁政权实施更多的社会控制。

I think that that was one of the reasons why the mobilization that we saw in 2019 completely stopped in 2020.

我认为这就是我们在 2019 年看到的动员在 2020 年完全停止的原因之一。

LÓPEZ: No, I think that by no means there’s a comparison with the level of corruption of the regime.

洛佩斯：不，我认为这与政权的腐败程度没有任何可比性。

But we do have great challenges in terms of how to manage our country in very transparent and efficient ways.

但在如何以非常透明和有效的方式管理我们的国家方面，我们确实面临着巨大的挑战。

I think this is one of the challenges that we have, going forward, is to make the administration of public resources of the country very transparent and efficient.

我认为这是我们未来面临的挑战之一，就是使国家公共资源的管理变得非常透明和高效。

This is, again, something that requires the compromise of all the democratic sectors.

这又需要所有民主部门的妥协。

LÓPEZ: I believe that sanctions are a necessary tool to compensate the lack of other options to deal with autocracies.

洛佩斯：我认为制裁是弥补应对独裁政权缺乏其他选择的必要工具。

We have seen that very clearly here after the invasion of Russia into Ukraine, that the first response of Europe and the United States — and particularly very, very intensely (and surprisingly, to me) the way in which Europe responded with economic sanctions as the first alternative.

我们在这里非常清楚地看到，在俄罗斯入侵乌克兰之后，欧洲和美国的第一反应——尤其是非常非常强烈（令我惊讶的是）欧洲以经济制裁作为第一选择的反应方式。

I think that in the case of Venezuela, that is also true.

我认为委内瑞拉的情况也是如此。

I also believe that sanctions have been important, and I support the imposition of individual sanctions for violations of human rights and corruption, but also general sanctions that will create the necessary pressure in order for the regime to open opportunities for the democratization of the country.

我还认为制裁很重要，我支持对侵犯人权和腐败行为实施个别制裁，但也支持普遍制裁，这将为该政权创造必要的压力，为国家民主化提供机会。

I think that sanctions are the only reason why the regime will sit down and negotiate a way forward towards democratization of Venezuela.

我认为制裁是该政权坐下来谈判委内瑞拉民主化之路的唯一原因。

LÓPEZ: Well, that has been an argument that has been widely spread, but it’s actually not true.

洛佩斯：嗯，这是一个被广泛传播的论点，但实际上并不正确。

It’s actually not factually true that the crisis in Venezuela was created by sanctions.

委内瑞拉的危机是由制裁造成的，这实际上是不正确的。

By no means — in economic or social terms — does the crisis of Venezuela coincide with the imposition of sanctions.

无论如何，“从经济或社会角度来看”，委内瑞拉的危机与制裁的实施并不同时发生。

Now, with a full regime of sanctions, there is this narrative promoted by the autocracy of Maduro that Venezuela is doing better, that there is actually economic growth.

现在，有了全面的制裁制度，马杜罗独裁政权就宣扬委内瑞拉做得更好，经济实际上在增长。

We have seen in some of the Wall Street analysis about Venezuela that this is a year where there will be an important growth in the economy.

我们在华尔街对委内瑞拉的一些分析中看到，今年经济将出现重要增长。

If that is happening, and sanctions are imposed now, actually, there’s really no clear relationship that sanctions create a strain in the Venezuelan economy.

如果这种情况发生，并且现在实施制裁，实际上，制裁对委内瑞拉经济造成压力并没有明确的关系。

That is true, but they are also the only tool, the only leverage that there is in order for Maduro to open a possibility for a free and fair election.

确实如此，但它们也是马杜罗开启自由公正选举可能性的唯一工具和杠杆。

LÓPEZ: It’s incredible, yes.

洛佩斯：是的，这太不可思议了。

When I worked in PDVSA, I worked there, I graduated, I had the opportunity to be in the office for strategic planning, particularly with the chief economist.

当我在PDVSA工作时，我在那里工作，我毕业了，我有机会在办公室进行战略规划，特别是与首席经济学家一起。

And we were always very interested in the analysis of PDVSA and other state-owned companies.

我们一直对 PDVSA 和其他国有企业的分析非常感兴趣。

And by far, PDVSA was analyzed and was evaluated as one of the best state-owned oil companies in the world.

到目前为止，PDVSA被分析并评为全球最好的国有石油公司之一。

It was, at one point, the third-largest oil company in the world.

它曾一度是世界第三大石油公司。

We were producing at the time 3.7 million barrels of oil, but that all changed.

当时我们生产了 370 万桶石油，但一切都改变了。

Today, we’re producing less than 600,000 barrels of oil, and the company has completely collapsed.

如今，我们的石油产量不足 60 万桶，公司已经彻底倒闭。

When you frame the question that today, Pemex is a reference or it’s doing better than Venezuela, it’s just a huge shift because Pemex was the wrong example of what oil companies should be like 20, 25 or 30, 40 years ago.

当你提出今天的问题时，Pemex 是一个参考，或者它比委内瑞拉做得更好，这只是一个巨大的转变，因为 Pemex 是 20、25 或 30、40 年前石油公司应该是什么样子的错误例子。

It’s not that Pemex is getting better.

这并不是说墨西哥国家石油公司正在变得更好。

It’s that PDVSA basically collapsed.

就是PDVSA基本上崩溃了。

PDVSA was completely dismantled because of corruption.

PDVSA因腐败而被彻底解散。

Tens of billions of dollars were stolen because of the corrupt activities around the oil industry.

由于石油行业的腐败活动，数百亿美元被盗。

There are dozens of criminal cases open in the United States courts because of money laundering, corruption, and corrupt practices associated with PDVSA.

由于与 PDVSA 相关的洗钱、腐败和腐败行为，美国法院正在审理数十起刑事案件。

I’ll give you some figures of this collapse.

我会给你一些关于这次崩溃的数据。

I gave you the first one: We were producing 3.7 million barrels of oil, now less than 600,000.

我给你们讲了第一个：我们当时生产了 370 万桶石油，现在不足 60 万桶。

The debt of the company was around $3 billion 20 years ago, and now it’s over $50 billion, and we are producing less.

20 年前，公司的债务约为 30 亿美元，现在已超过 500 亿美元，而且我们的产量正在减少。

The number of direct employees was around 50,000, and now it’s close to 200,000.

直接员工人数从5万左右，到现在接近20万。

There is no output in products from the Venezuelan refineries because they basically collapsed.

委内瑞拉炼油厂基本倒闭，没有产品产出。

One of them exploded in the year 2012.

其中一座于 2012 年发生爆炸。

Since there was a corrupt hiring of the insurance, it was never brought back to function ever again.

由于保险聘用存在腐败行为，该保险再也没有恢复运作。

It was the largest refining complex in the Western Hemisphere, and it just collapsed.

它是西半球最大的炼油厂，刚刚倒塌。

Because of corrupt practices, it has remained collapsed over the past 10 years.

由于腐败行为，它在过去10年里一直处于崩溃状态。

LÓPEZ: No, I think Bolívar had a proposal that, if it had come true, it would’ve been a very different geopolitical dynamic in the entire continent and the world, because his view was that Venezuela, Ecuador, Panama, and Colombia were one nation — and Bolivia — were one nation called La Gran Colombia.

洛佩斯：不，我认为玻利瓦尔有一个提议，如果它实现，整个大陆和世界都会出现一种非常不同的地缘政治动态，因为他认为委内瑞拉、厄瓜多尔、巴拿马和哥伦比亚是一个国家——而玻利维亚是一个叫做“大哥伦比亚”的国家。

Unfortunately, for different political reasons at the time, that didn’t happen, and it was split up into different republics.

不幸的是，由于当时不同的政治原因，这并没有发生，它被分裂成不同的共和国。

He was also very clear in the compromise to our republic, to the rule of law, to the respect of the freedoms and the liberties of the people of the newly freed countries.

他也非常明确地表示对我们的共和国、法治、尊重新自由国家人民的自由和自由的妥协。

I think that it’s the contrary.

我认为事实恰恰相反。

There has been a path against what Bolívar and the independence proposal at the time thought for the future of Venezuela.

有一条道路与玻利瓦尔和当时的独立提案对委内瑞拉未来的想法背道而驰。

LÓPEZ: When you say thinly populated, what do you refer to?

洛佩斯：当你说人口稀少时，你指的是什么？

LÓPEZ: That could be an analysis.

洛佩斯：这可能是一种分析。

However, the population in Venezuela has been concentrated along the coast primarily, and in large cities.

然而，委内瑞拉的人口主要集中在沿海地区和大城市。

There was, during the after-war period, a huge migration — because of the oil activity — to the cities, and that has remained a pattern.

战后时期，由于石油活动，出现了大规模的人口迁移到城市，并且这种模式一直存在。

Of course, looking forward, there needs to be some propositions for taking better advantage of the rest of the territory.

当然，展望未来，需要提出一些建议来更好地利用其余领土。

However, we do have very densely populated cities that in themselves have large problems to be solved.

然而，我们确实有人口非常稠密的城市，这些城市本身就有很大的问题需要解决。

LÓPEZ: Well, I think Venezuelans are very happy people.

洛佩斯：嗯，我认为委内瑞拉人是非常快乐的人。

Venezuelans are people that have a particular charisma.

委内瑞拉人是具有特殊魅力的人。

I have seen that and realized that over the past year.

在过去的一年里我已经看到并意识到了这一点。

I have seen Venezuelans all over Latin America and other parts of the world, and I see how they do, how they are perceived, how many of them succeed in different works, opportunities.

我见过拉丁美洲和世界其他地区的委内瑞拉人，我看到他们是如何做的，他们是如何被看待的，他们中有多少人在不同的工作和机会中取得了成功。

They are a very well-considered character.

他们是一个经过深思熟虑的角色。

That’s what I’ve seen all over my travels in Latin America.

这就是我在拉丁美洲旅行中所看到的一切。

Of course, I think that we have an entrepreneurship spirit that, because of so many hardships that we have been facing — particularly over the past 20 years, and intensively over the past 10 years — that Venezuelans have become very resilient, but it’s a particular way of being resilient, with good vibes and good attitude.

当然，我认为我们有一种企业家精神，由于我们一直面临着如此多的困难——尤其是在过去的20年里，尤其是在过去的10年里——委内瑞拉人变得非常有韧性，但这是一种特殊的韧性方式，有良好的氛围和良好的态度。

LÓPEZ: Well, Mérida is culturally linked closer to Colombia, to the culture of Colombia.

洛佩斯：嗯，梅里达在文化上与哥伦比亚以及哥伦比亚的文化联系更紧密。

It’s also primarily a mountain-populated country.

它也是一个主要以山区人口为主的国家。

Of course, there is a large population in the coast.

当然，沿海地区人口众多。

Up until the middle of the 20th century, western Venezuela, where we have the mountains and it’s close to Colombia, was basically detached from Caracas and from the coast.

直到20世纪中叶，委内瑞拉西部有山脉且靠近哥伦比亚，基本上与加拉加斯和海岸分离。

Travel there needed to be by sea.

去那里必须走海路。

It took two, three days to go from Mérida to Caracas.

从梅里达到加拉加斯需要两三天的时间。

That created an isolation of that part of the country.

这造成了该国那部分地区的孤立。

However, that quickly changed during the last part of the 20th century, and Venezuela became a very well-communicated territory.

然而，这种情况在 20 世纪后半叶迅速发生了变化，委内瑞拉成为一个交通便利的领土。

LÓPEZ: There are some people that try to promote that conflict and try to use it.

洛佩斯：有些人试图推动这种冲突并试图利用它。

Chávez, especially, was very keen on doing this, to use historical references of the differences between Bolívar and Santander.

查韦斯尤其热衷于这样做，利用玻利瓦尔和桑坦德之间差异的历史参考。

Santander was one of the leaders of the independence of La Gran Colombia.

桑坦德银行是大哥伦比亚独立的领导人之一。

He was Colombian and he became president of Colombia.

他是哥伦比亚人，并成为哥伦比亚总统。

Chávez had a narrative trying, basically, to say that the history of Venezuela can be reduced to three episodes: when the Spanish came and they conquered and they killed the Indians; when we got independence and then Bolívar suffered prison by Santander; and then his own period.

查韦斯的叙述基本上试图说委内瑞拉的历史可以简化为三集：西班牙人到来，他们征服并杀害印第安人；当我们获得独立时，玻利瓦尔被桑坦德银行监禁；然后是他自己的时期。

They tried to simplify that narrative, and this is something very characteristic of populism.

他们试图简化这种叙述，这是民粹主义的一个非常典型的特征。

Perón, who you mentioned before, was also very keen in doing this.

你之前提到的庇隆也非常热衷于这样做。

There is this sentiment that has been politically manipulated.

这种情绪受到了政治操纵。

However, we have seen the way in which the people from Colombia migrated to Venezuela by the millions during the last part of the 20th century, and now the tide has changed, and millions of Venezuelans are migrating to Colombia.

然而，我们已经看到了20世纪后半叶数以百万计的哥伦比亚人移民到委内瑞拉的方式，现在潮流已经改变，数百万委内瑞拉人正在移民到哥伦比亚。

And there is a very natural integration.

并且有一种非常自然的整合。

Venezuela and Colombia, in a way, are very close culturally, historically, and family way.

在某种程度上，委内瑞拉和哥伦比亚在文化、历史和家庭方面非常接近。

There are millions of Venezuelans that have married Colombians, and now their children are Colombian Venezuelans.

有数百万委内瑞拉人与哥伦比亚人结婚，现在他们的孩子是哥伦比亚委内瑞拉人。

I think that that creates a very tight bond between the two countries.

我认为这在两国之间建立了非常紧密的联系。

LÓPEZ: Well, I think they have the same temptation at the moment that we had in Venezuela 22 years ago, when there was this proposal to change the constitution to create new institutions and to pack the institutions with the people loyal to the regime.

洛佩斯：嗯，我认为他们现在面临着与 22 年前委内瑞拉同样的诱惑，当时有人提议修改宪法以创建新的机构，并将忠于该政权的人塞进这些机构。

Chile is undergoing a challenge of rewriting a constitution that could divide the Chilean people, as it happened in Venezuela, or it could unite the Chilean people, as it didn’t happen in Venezuela.

智利正在面临重写宪法的挑战，这部宪法可能会分裂智利人民，就像在委内瑞拉发生的那样，也可能团结智利人民，就像在委内瑞拉发生的那样。

I think it, in a great way, depends on the output and the type of, quote, “political consensus” that they can agree upon in this constituent process that they’re undergoing.

我认为，这在很大程度上取决于他们在正在进行的选举过程中能够达成的“政治共识”的产出和类型。

I hope they learn from what happened in Venezuela because, at the time, the promise of a new constitution, of a constituent assembly, was a mirage.

我希望他们从委内瑞拉发生的事情中吸取教训，因为当时，新宪法和制宪会议的承诺只是一个海市蜃楼。

It was a promise to solve all of the problems.

这是解决所有问题的承诺。

It made democracy crumble, and it basically dismantled the rule of law, and it paved the way for the autocratic regime that we have now.

它使民主崩溃，从根本上瓦解了法治，并为我们现在的专制政权铺平了道路。

LÓPEZ: Well, I think that there is an underlying problem, which is the lack of delivering by democratic regimes.

洛佩斯：嗯，我认为存在一个根本问题，那就是民主政权缺乏兑现。

I think there is a tendency, a global tendency, to undermine democracy.

我认为有一种趋势，一种全球趋势，破坏民主。

And part of the problem has been the lack of democratic governments to deliver on big issues: poverty, inequality, opening opportunities, health, and education.

部分问题在于缺乏民主政府来解决贫困、不平等、开放机会、健康和教育等重大问题。

I think that there is a real challenge that democracies need to deliver for the people, because if not, they’ll become questioned and they become prey of autocracy proposals that won’t improve the living standards of the people, but will crumble and attack the democratic system.

我认为民主国家需要为人民带来真正的挑战，因为如果不这样做，他们就会受到质疑，成为独裁提案的牺牲品，这些提案不会提高人民的生活水平，反而会瓦解和攻击民主制度。

LÓPEZ: Well, I had many books on the history of Venezuela.

洛佩斯：嗯，我有很多关于委内瑞拉历史的书。

I also had different oil books, economic books.

我还有不同的石油书籍、经济书籍。

For example, I had the different books of Daniel Yergin that I reread while I was in prison.

例如，我在监狱里重读了丹尼尔·耶金（Daniel Yergin）的不同书籍。

I read a lot of Latin American literature, from Vargas Llosa to Leonardo Padura, a Cuban who has written masterpieces in the way in which the Cuban society has evolved and that, for me, sounds very close to our case in Venezuela.

我读了很多拉丁美洲文学，从巴尔加斯·略萨（Vargas Llosa）到莱昂纳多·帕杜拉（Leonardo Padura），后者是一位古巴人，他以古巴社会演变的方式写下了杰作，对我来说，这听起来与我们委内瑞拉的情况非常接近。

I also read a lot of Colombian literature.

我还读了很多哥伦比亚文学。

William Ospina, who wrote very interesting books on history and adventure, the way the rivers in South America were conquered — the Orinoco and the Amazon Rivers.

威廉·奥斯皮纳（William Ospina）写了非常有趣的书，内容涉及历史和冒险，以及征服南美洲河流（奥里诺科河和亚马逊河）的方式。

I read a lot of Stefan Zweig, a lot of his autobiographies, mainly the books that I had.

我读了很多斯蒂芬·茨威格，很多他的自传，主要是我拥有的书。

I wrote the book that you read after a year and a half in prison, but things really changed.

我写了你在监狱一年半后读到的书，但事情确实发生了变化。

At first, I did have access to books, but books became such a cherished thing for me.

起初，我确实有机会接触到书籍，但书籍对我来说变得如此珍贵。

It was very clear for my captors that it was something that kept me very focused, that they took the books away, and they did it in a very cruel way.

对于我的绑架者来说，很明显，他们拿走了这些书，并且以一种非常残酷的方式进行，这让我非常专注。

I was in a prison cell two by two with the bars, and a meter and a half away, there was another cell.

我当时在一间两两有铁栅栏的牢房里，一米半外还有另一间牢房。

They put all of the books right in front of me.

他们把所有的书都放在我面前。

I could not reach them, I could not read them, but they were there.

我无法接触到它们，我无法阅读它们，但它们就在那里。

I wrote an essay that I called “The In Prison Books.” It was, in a way, a metaphor of how autocratic regimes keep knowledge, or keep books, or keep discussions away from the people in order to control their minds and the attitudes of individuals.

我写了一篇文章，我称之为“监狱里的书”。在某种程度上，这是专制政权如何保存知识、保存书籍或阻止人民讨论以控制他们的思想和个人态度的隐喻。

My relationship with the books while I was in prison was a very close relationship.

我在监狱期间与书的关系非常密切。

At one point, I was taken away all of the books.

有一次，我所有的书都被拿走了。

The director of the prison — he called himself a Christian.

监狱长——他自称为基督徒。

I said, “You should not take away from me the word of the Lord, so you should give me the Bible.”

我说：“你不应该从我这里夺走主的话，所以你应该把圣经给我。”

After a couple of days, he gave me the Bible.

几天后，他给了我圣经。

I read the Bible from Genesis to Apocalypse, and it was a really interesting experience to read the Bible in that way.

我从创世记到启示录读了圣经，以这种方式阅读圣经是一次非常有趣的经历。

Reading chronologically the story of the people from Israel and the story of Jesus Christ, for me, was a really interesting and fulfilling experience.

对我来说，按时间顺序阅读以色列人民的故事和耶稣基督的故事是一次非常有趣和充实的经历。

I also had the opportunity to write, but then they took my pens and paper away from me.

我也有机会写字，但他们把我的笔和纸拿走了。

By the end of my imprisonment, I had nothing.

到我入狱结束时，我已经一无所有。

I only had my mattress and the few clothes that I had there.

我只有床垫和几件衣服。

I didn’t have a chair, I didn’t have a table, I didn’t have anything.

我没有椅子，没有桌子，我什么都没有。

With respect to the Bible, how exactly is it different to read the Bible in prison?

就圣经而言，在监狱里读圣经到底有什么不同呢？

LÓPEZ: To read the Old Testament, for me, was reading the history of the people from Israel.

洛佩斯：对我来说，阅读旧约就是阅读以色列人民的历史。

That was something very fulfilling for me and created great admiration for that story that, for us Christian Catholics, gave a way to Jesus.

这对我来说非常有成就感，也让我对这个故事产生了极大的钦佩，这个故事为我们基督教天主教徒开辟了一条通向耶稣的道路。

The story of Jesus, when you’re in prison, is a very powerful story because it’s a story of an individual who was first praised and supported, and then was challenged by his own people.

当你在监狱里时，耶稣的故事是一个非常有力的故事，因为这是一个个人的故事，他首先受到赞扬和支持，然后受到自己的人民的挑战。

Then he was beaten, and he was crucified, and he was misunderstood, and he suffered a great deal.

然后他被打，他被钉十字架，他被误解，他受了很多苦。

Then we see the ways in which the apostles took the word and spread the word.

然后我们看到使徒们接受圣言并传播圣言的方式。

For me — I’ve been always involved with creating networks of people and doing grassroots organizations and grassroots activism.

对我而言—— 我一直参与创建人员网络、开展草根组织和草根活动。

You read the story of the apostles, and it’s the story of grassroots activism, so that also felt very close to me.

你读过使徒的故事，这是草根行动主义的故事，所以这也让我感觉非常接近。

It was a lecture at different levels.

这是一场不同层次的讲座。

Of course, there is a spiritual reading of the Bible, but then there’s also the historical context that I really became familiar with.

当然，有对圣经的精神阅读，但也有我真正熟悉的历史背景。

And I identified with many of the stories that were there because many of the stories in the Bible are stories of hardships, of crossing the desert in many different ways.

我认同那里的许多故事，因为圣经中的许多故事都是艰难的故事，都是以多种不同方式穿越沙漠的故事。

That’s what has been my life experience personally and also family-wise and also nation-wise — that we have been crossing the deserts at different periods, individually and as a nation.

这就是我个人、家庭和国家的生活经历——我们在不同时期，无论是个人还是作为一个国家，都在穿越沙漠。

For me, that also was a very heart-feeling experience.

对我来说，这也是一次非常感人的经历。

LÓPEZ: Well, it was interesting to look at my face after more than three months without knowing what I looked like.

洛佩斯：嗯，三个多月后看着我的脸却不知道自己长什么样，这很有趣。

I had grown my beard, and then my beard became a symbol to other prisoners.

我留起了胡子，然后我的胡子就成了其他囚犯的象征。

I was isolated in one of the buildings.

我被隔离在一栋大楼里。

The prison where I was — they had two buildings.

我所在的监狱——他们有两栋大楼。

In one of them, there were between 400 and 500 military prisoners, and I was in the other building most of the time by myself.

其中一栋楼里关押着 400 到 500 名军事囚犯，而我大部分时间都在另一栋楼里。

I was taken to a place where I could see the sun once every three, four days, very early in the morning.

我被带到一个每三四天就能看到一次太阳的地方，而且是在清晨。

I had a beard.

我留着胡子。

Other prisoners started to grow a beard as a sign of protesting against the regime.

其他囚犯开始留胡子，以抗议现政权。

There was a point where many of us had grown the beard, so the beard became illegal.

曾经有一段时间，我们中的许多人都留起了胡子，所以留胡子变得非法。

In order for me to see my lawyer, I had to shave, and the other prisoners were not able to have a beard.

为了见我的律师，我必须刮胡子，而其他囚犯是不能留胡子的。

Prison is a very intense experience in many ways, but it can break you or it can make you stronger.

从很多方面来说，监狱都是一次非常紧张的经历，但它可以让你崩溃，也可以让你变得更坚强。

I was very conscious of that because I prepared myself for this experience.

我非常清楚这一点，因为我已经为这次经历做好了准备。

Six months before I was taken to prison, there was a warrant for my arrest, and that gave me an opportunity to read about the experiences of other political prisoners.

在我入狱前六个月，我收到了逮捕令，这让我有机会了解其他政治犯的经历。

I read the story of Mandela, of Gandhi, of the brief periods in prison of Martin Luther King, and of many Venezuelan political prisoners.

我读过曼德拉、甘地、马丁·路德·金以及许多委内瑞拉政治犯在狱中短暂经历的故事。

There was one thing that was very clear in all of those testimonies, which is that they need to have a routine.

所有这些证词中有一件事非常清楚，那就是他们需要有一个惯例。

Since the very first day, I was very self-conscious of having a routine and knowing that my battlefield against the regime was taking place in my head, in my heart, and in the capacity to maintain myself with a strong soul.

从第一天起，我就非常自觉地有一个惯例，并知道我与政权的斗争正在我的头脑中、我的心里进行，并且有能力用坚强的灵魂来维持自己。

I was very conscious and disciplined about going about my routine, which was basically praying, reading or writing, and doing physical exercise.

我非常有意识和自律地进行我的日常活动，基本上是祈祷、阅读或写作以及体育锻炼。

I did that with spartan discipline every single day, and that’s what kept me very focused during my time in prison.

我每天都以斯巴达式的纪律做到这一点，这就是我在监狱期间保持高度专注的原因。

LÓPEZ: Amongst the prisoners, there was a lot of trust.

洛佩斯：囚犯之间存在很大的信任。

Actually, I was able to lead a protest in prison.

事实上，我能够在监狱里领导抗议活动。

We were able to take control of the entire prison.

我们能够控制整个监狱。

This happened in February of 2015.

这件事发生在2015年2月。

We had been preparing ourselves because I had brief encounters with other prisoners, particularly when I was taken to mass.

我们一直在做好准备，因为我与其他囚犯有过短暂的接触，特别是当我被带去参加弥撒时。

After three months of being there, I was asking to be able to go to mass or to see other prisoners because that’s a right that prisoners have.

在那里呆了三个月后，我要求能够去参加弥撒或看望其他囚犯，因为这是囚犯拥有的权利。

There’s one point in the mass liturgy when you stand up, and you give the people a hug in an expression of peace.

在集体礼拜仪式中，有一个要点是，当你站起来时，你会拥抱人们，表达和平。

That gave me three to four seconds with each prisoner.

这给了我与每个囚犯三到四秒钟的时间。

When I went to that ceremony, I was with two officers of the intelligence police, but that brief moment gave me the opportunity to tell some of the prisoners, and to give them the following message.

当我去参加那个仪式时，我和两名情报警察在一起，但那短暂的时刻让我有机会告诉一些囚犯，并向他们传达以下信息。

I would tell them, “Tell your wife to look to my wife and to get in contact.”

我会告诉他们，“让你的妻子去找我的妻子并取得联系。”

I did that with many prisoners, and we had a slow iteration of getting in contact with different prisoners.

我对很多囚犯都这样做了，我们慢慢地与不同的囚犯取得联系。

It got to a point where we had people in each one of the floors in each one of the sectors of the prison.

到了监狱每个区域的每一层都有人的地步。

We were prepared to do a very strong protest.

我们准备进行非常强烈的抗议。

One day it all sparked because they mistreated a baby that was coming in for visit.

有一天，这一切都因为他们虐待了一名前来探望的婴儿而引发。

This plan that we had been crafting for months was activated, and we took control of the prison for maybe 14 hours.

这个我们酝酿了几个月的计划被启动了，我们控制了监狱大约 14 个小时。

So it was a very intense moment, and prisoners were very conscious of the dictatorship as the source of many of their problems.

所以这是一个非常紧张的时刻，囚犯们非常清楚独裁统治是他们许多问题的根源。

Since it was a military prison, more than half of the people there were there for political reasons.

由于是军事监狱，里面一半以上的人都是出于政治原因。

There is a very high intolerance and very tremendous consequences for the military that stand up against the regime.

对于反对该政权的军队来说，存在着非常高的不宽容性和非常严重的后果。

People who just make a comment or go to a meeting or even talk about the news in a certain way — they run the risk of being thrown into prison.

仅仅以某种方式发表评论或参加会议甚至谈论新闻的人——他们面临着被投入监狱的风险。

As I said, many of the people there were also military-political prisoners with a very strong commitment to struggle for freedom, so that created a very fertile ground for organizing many of the prisoners.

正如我所说，那里的许多人也是军事政治犯，他们非常坚定地致力于争取自由，因此这为组织许多囚犯创造了非常肥沃的土壤。

LÓPEZ: Well, money itself.

洛佩斯：嗯，就是金钱本身。

Since I was isolated, I had no possibility of doing any exchange for anything, but I do know that the way things get exchanged — not just with money, but also through the visits.

由于我被隔离了，所以我不可能进行任何交换，但我确实知道交换东西的方式——不仅是用钱，还可以通过访问。

You get paid through the wives or the spouses or the people that come to visit.

您通过妻子或配偶或来访的人获得报酬。

That’s how some of the transactions happen.

一些交易就是这样发生的。

They happen outside of prison, but there is not much exchange since there are not many goods or services that can be provided.

它们发生在监狱外，但交换不多，因为可以提供的商品或服务不多。

One of the services that prisoners provide is shaving other prisoners.

囚犯提供的服务之一是给其他囚犯剃毛。

That’s an open service that can be charged for, but there are very little things that can be exchanged.

那是一个开放的服务，可以收费，但是可以兑换的东西很少。

LÓPEZ: Well, I actually have never regretted doing what I did.

洛佩斯：嗯，实际上我从来没有后悔过我所做的事情。

I was very conscious because I presented myself voluntarily.

我非常有意识，因为我自愿展示自己。

I was not caught.

我没有被抓住。

There was a warrant for my arrest.

我收到了逮捕令。

I went into hiding for several days, and then I called for a protest to turn myself in, and tens of thousands of people came out to the street, and I presented myself, being very clear in what I was doing.

我躲了几天，然后我呼吁抗议自首，成千上万的人走上街头，我也出现了，非常清楚我在做什么。

In a way, I felt the commitment to show to the Venezuelan people and the world the petrified system that we were in and the lack of rule of law.

在某种程度上，我感受到了向委内瑞拉人民和世界展示我们所处的僵化体系和缺乏法治的承诺。

It became a symbol of injustice, and that became also a symbol of the struggle for many people to fight, so I never regretted doing that.

它成为了不公正的象征，也成为了许多人抗争的象征，所以我从来没有后悔这样做。

It was very hard for me and my family.

这对我和我的家人来说非常困难。

I also know that my family — although they went through very difficult moments, they understand and they support what we went through because we had a purpose.

我也知道我的家人——尽管他们经历了非常困难的时刻，但他们理解并支持我们所经历的一切，因为我们有一个目标。

I had a purpose, as an individual.

作为个人，我有一个目标。

My family shared that purpose.

我的家人也有同样的目标。

And I believe that happiness is about having a purpose.

我相信幸福就是有目标。

It’s not the material gain or the status that you can have.

这不是你可以拥有的物质利益或地位。

It could be that for some people, but I think that the best way to define happiness is when you have a purpose that you can stand up for, that you wake up every day with commitment, regardless of the obstacles that you are facing.

对于某些人来说可能是这样，但我认为定义幸福的最好方法是当你有一个可以坚持的目标时，无论你面临什么障碍，你每天都带着承诺醒来。

I continue to have that purpose now, so I never regretted going to prison.

我现在仍然怀揣着这个目标，所以我从未后悔入狱。

I can tell you, when I escaped more than a year ago, it was very difficult for me, because I had made a personal and a public commitment to remain in Venezuela.

我可以告诉你，一年多前我逃离时，这对我来说非常困难，因为我个人和公开承诺留在委内瑞拉。

However, after seven years, it got to a point where there were diminishing returns in the things that I could impact in Venezuela, being isolated, and also, the personal difficulty of seeing my kids growing up.

然而，七年后，我在委内瑞拉所能影响的事情的回报递减，被孤立，以及看着我的孩子长大的个人困难。

My oldest daughter, Manuela, was four when I first went to prison.

我第一次入狱时，我的大女儿曼努埃拉四岁。

My youngest, Leopoldo, was one, and then I have a baby girl of four.

我最小的孩子莱奥波尔多（Leopoldo）只有一个，然后我有一个四岁的女婴。

That was, of course, another reason that led me to be with my family.

当然，这是我和家人在一起的另一个原因。

But primarily, I was motivated to figure out different ways of making our struggle for freedom known, to get different types of support, to articulate with other leaders and movements that are going through the same struggle elsewhere, because what I have realized is that what we have been going through in Venezuela is not an isolated issue.

但最重要的是，我的动机是想出不同的方式来让我们为自由而奋斗，获得不同类型的支持，与其他地方正在经历同样斗争的其他领导人和运动进行沟通，因为我意识到我们在委内瑞拉所经历的并不是一个孤立的问题。

It’s not an isolated case, not even in Latin America.

这不是一个孤立的案例，即使在拉丁美洲也不是。

It’s a global struggle for freedom, and over this past year and a half, I have seen similarities in what we are going through with many other places, in Asia and Africa, in the Middle East and Eastern Europe, and of course in Latin America.

这是一场全球性的争取自由的斗争，在过去的一年半里，我看到我们与亚洲和非洲、中东和东欧，当然还有拉丁美洲等许多其他地方正在经历的事情有相似之处。

LÓPEZ: Well, the Midwest was something very different, but I really had an extraordinary opportunity to be at Kenyon College and have a liberal arts education.

洛佩斯：嗯，中西部的情况非常不同，但我确实有一个非凡的机会在凯尼恩学院接受文科教育。

It was a place where I struggled very intensely with ideas, and I also had the opportunity to do my early activist and grassroots organization.

在那里，我与思想进行了非常激烈的斗争，我也有机会做我早期的活动家和草根组织。

I remember we organized a protest during my junior year.

我记得我大三的时候我们组织了一次抗议活动。

It was after the invasion of Kuwait, so we were protesting against the war.

那是在科威特入侵之后，所以我们抗议战争。

It was 12 of us, and we sounded the fire alarms exactly at the same time that the first bombs went down.

我们共有 12 个人，在第一枚炸弹落下的同时，我们拉响了火警警报。

This was more than 30 years ago, and one of the people that were with me was caught, so we all showed, and we were suspended for some time.

这是30多年前的事了，和我一起的一个人被抓了，所以我们都表现出来了，我们被暂停了一段时间。

We ignited a very intense debate on the campus.

我们在校园里引发了一场非常激烈的争论。

I also had the opportunity to organize one of the first environmentally conscious organizations on the campus.

我还有机会组织校园内最早的具有环保意识的组织之一。

We called it ASHES: Active Students Helping the Earth Survive, and it was much in the thinking of Greenpeace at the time, being very proactive.

我们称之为《灰烬：活跃的学生帮助地球生存》，这也是绿色和平组织当时的想法，非常积极主动。

That was the time that we had the first celebration of Earth Day on campus.

那是我们在校园里第一次庆祝地球日的时候。

I had the opportunity to be in contact with many issues.

我有机会接触到很多问题。

I had the opportunity for very intense philosophical and ideological debates, and also, I was very involved in sports, so it was a very good experience.

我有机会进行非常激烈的哲学和意识形态辩论，而且我非常热衷于体育运动，所以这是一次非常好的经历。

LÓPEZ: Well, I’ve always done martial arts, ever since I was a young kid.

洛佩斯：嗯，我从小就一直练习武术。

I have always been involved and competed in martial arts.

我一直参与并参加武术比赛。

But several years ago, a couple of years before I went to prison, I started boxing.

但几年前，就在我入狱前几年，我开始练习拳击。

I really liked it.

我真的很喜欢它。

When I was in prison, I was doing a lot of boxing, most of the time by myself, but it’s something that gave me a lot of self-control and also a lot of self-assurance.

当我在监狱里时，我做了很多拳击，大部分时间都是我自己，但这给了我很大的自制力和自信。

Even though I knew that I was always going to lose against the weapons and the numbers of my custody, it gave me a lot of self-assurance.

尽管我知道我总是会输给武器和我的拘留人数，但这给了我很多自信。

It’s a great sport.

这是一项很棒的运动。

It’s tactical, it’s physical, it’s very fast, and it gets you in contact, and I’ve always liked extreme sport.

它是战术性的，它是身体性的，它非常快，它让你接触，而且我一直喜欢极限运动。

For me, boxing is an extreme sport in the sense that when you’re sparring and you are getting hit, you know that you’re in a dangerous situation, and you need to not only have a good offense, but also a good defense.

对我来说，拳击是一项极限运动，因为当你在拳击中被击中时，你知道自己处于危险的境地，你不仅需要良好的进攻，还需要良好的防守。

And in a way, boxing is also about knowing how to get hit, knowing how to defend.

在某种程度上，拳击还在于知道如何被击中，知道如何防守。

It’s very strategic.

这是非常具有战略意义的。

I love boxing.

我喜欢拳击。

I box five times a week, if I can.

如果可以的话，我每周打五次拳击。

LÓPEZ: I’ve always liked motorcycles as well.

LÓPEZ：我也一直喜欢摩托车。

I actually competed in Enduro.

我实际上参加了耐力赛。

When I was mayor, I always used a motorcycle to move around the city.

当我担任市长时，我总是骑摩托车在城市里穿梭。

I’ve always been a motorcycle fan as well.

我也一直是摩托车迷。

I crossed from Ohio to the West Coast in a relatively small motorcycle, a Suzuki Katana 250.

我乘坐一辆相对较小的摩托车铃木 Katana 250 从俄亥俄州穿越到西海岸。

Whoever knows about motorcycles knows it’s not a highway motorcycle, but it was a great experience.

了解摩托车的人都知道这不是公路摩托车，但这是一次很棒的体验。

It was a solitary experience for me.

这对我来说是一次孤独的经历。

I spent three weeks crossing the United States, and that actually prepared me, in a way, for prison.

我花了三个星期穿越美国，这实际上在某种程度上为我入狱做好了准备。

I had another experience.

我还有另一种经历。

I hitchhiked from Peru to Venezuela.

我从秘鲁搭便车到委内瑞拉。

I was very into ice climbing at the time.

那时我非常喜欢攀冰。

I spent some weeks climbing in Peru right after the mountains opened because the Sendero Luminoso guerrilla group was no longer taking control of that part of the country.

秘鲁山脉开放后，我花了几个星期的时间进行攀登，因为“光明之光”游击队不再控制该国的该地区。

Then I hitchhiked back to Venezuela.

然后我搭便车回到委内瑞拉。

All of those experiences being alone, I think, prepared me for what I had to face later on in prison.

我想，所有这些孤独的经历都让我为以后在监狱里必须面对的事情做好了准备。

LÓPEZ: I think overrated, for sure.

洛佩斯：我认为肯定被高估了。

He was somebody that assassinated people himself.

他是一个亲自刺杀别人的人。

He committed great crimes against the Cuban people.

他对古巴人民犯下了滔天罪行。

He also was a systematic violator of human rights and promoted violent conflict elsewhere.

他还是系统性侵犯人权的人，并在其他地方煽动暴力冲突。

But he became a cultural icon that has been presented as something of an idea of a revolution without really looking at what his actions were.

但他成为了一个文化偶像，被视为一种革命理念，却没有真正审视他的行为。

LÓPEZ: I’ve become more of a libertarian, to tell you the truth.

洛佩斯：说实话，我已经变得更加自由主义者了。

I think that even that right-left spectrum doesn’t do precisely to the way in which I’ve shifted.

我认为即使是左右频谱也并不完全符合我转变的方式。

I continue to have a great priority in my beliefs to social issues, to addressing the huge problem that we have of poverty — how to lift millions of people out of poverty and inequality.

我的信念仍然优先考虑社会问题，解决我们面临的贫困这一巨大问题——如何使数百万人摆脱贫困和不平等。

I believe that the core of the solution for the well-being of millions of people is with the respect for and the promotion of people’s rights, so I’ve become more libertarian.

我相信，解决数百万人福祉的核心是尊重和促进人民的权利，所以我变得更加自由主义。

In terms of the geopolitics, we have seen how many countries that were social democracies, or even countries that have more of a left-leaning political ideology, have given less solidarity to the struggle for freedom in Venezuela.

在地缘政治方面，我们看到有多少社会民主国家，甚至政治意识形态较为左倾的国家，对委内瑞拉争取自由的斗争表现出较少的团结。

I think we need to think of ways of associating with other peoples that it’s not only between left and right, but basically those who promote freedom and liberty as a core of their beliefs to articulate a society that provides well-being for all.

我认为我们需要想办法与其他民族建立联系，这不仅是左派和右派之间的联系，而且基本上是那些提倡自由和自由作为其信仰核心的人们之间的联系，以阐明一个为所有人提供福祉的社会。

LÓPEZ: I certainly don’t think that that is true.

洛佩斯：我当然不认为这是真的。

I don’t know where you reader knows this group of Venezuelans, but it surprised me, that characterization.

我不知道读者在哪里认识这群委内瑞拉人，但这种描述让我感到惊讶。

I can tell you our own beliefs.

我可以告诉你我们自己的信仰。

We are very open in that respect, and we believe that all rights should be for all the people.

我们在这方面非常开放，我们相信所有权利都应该属于所有人。

In that sense, we have become a movement, a vanguard in different positions.

从这个意义上说，我们已经成为一场运动，成为不同立场的先锋。

We have the only transgender congresswoman in the entire continent from our political party.

我们的政党中有整个大陆唯一的跨性别国会女议员。

We believe that our view for democracy — what we talked about — the best Venezuela, which is, in a way, the promised land or objective, we promote that all rights should be for all the people.

我们相信，我们对民主的看法————我们所谈论的————最好的委内瑞拉，在某种程度上，这是应许之地或目标，我们提倡所有权利都应该属于所有人。

What has become radical, I could share with you, is in the rejection of socialism as a concept.

我可以与你们分享的是，已经变得激进的是对社会主义这一概念的拒绝。

The way in which Venezuelans today perceive the word and the concept of socialism — it’s very, very negative because socialism has been the banner under which the destruction of Venezuela happened.

今天委内瑞拉人对社会主义这个词和概念的看法是非常非常消极的，因为社会主义一直是委内瑞拉毁灭的旗帜。

Socialism — it’s a very highly rejected concept.

社会主义 ——这是一个被高度拒绝的概念。

With a lot of passion, you will hear people of very humble backgrounds and very humble and poor reality being very charged against what socialism means for Venezuelan people.

带着极大的热情，你会听到来自非常卑微的背景和非常卑微和贫穷的现实的人们对社会主义对委内瑞拉人民意味着什么感到非常不满。

Socialism for Venezuelan people means the lack of freedom, means a humanitarian tragedy, means hyperinflation, means the collapse of the economy, means the incapacity to provide health services, means the complete collapse of the educational system, the destruction of the universities, the criminalization of the security forces, the incapacity to vaccinate newborns, the incapacity to give running water to the large majority of the people.

对委内瑞拉人民来说，社会主义意味着缺乏自由，意味着人道主义悲剧，意味着恶性通货膨胀，意味着经济崩溃，意味着无法提供医疗服务，意味着教育体系彻底崩溃，大学被毁，安全部队被定罪，无法为新生儿接种疫苗，无法为大多数人民提供自来水。

That reality is what socialism means to the large, large majority of the Venezuelan people.

这一现实就是社会主义对绝大多数委内瑞拉人民的意义。

LÓPEZ: I think all of the people that could return should return.

洛佩斯：我认为所有能回来的人都应该回来。

However, when you look at the migration patterns, more or less, a rule of thumb is that when you have such a massive migration like the one that has happened in Venezuela, where 7 million people out of a population of 30 million people have already left the country, global patterns talk about one-third of that population returning if there is an improvement in the conditions.

然而，当你观察移民模式时，或多或少，一个经验法则是，当发生像委内瑞拉这样的大规模移民时，3000万人口中有700万人已经离开该国，全球模式表明，如果条件有所改善，三分之一的人口将返回该国。

And the improvement in the conditions is not just economic.

而且条件的改善不仅仅是经济上的。

It’s also the democratic system.

这也是民主制度。

Given that, I think that a lot of the people that have already left are going to stay away from Venezuela.

鉴于此，我认为许多已经离开的人将远离委内瑞拉。

That provides us with a huge challenge in how to incorporate Venezuelans that not necessarily are going to return to our country physically, but there are ways to support the reconstruction of Venezuela as a nation.

这给我们带来了巨大的挑战，即如何接纳委内瑞拉人，他们不一定会亲自返回我国，但有办法支持委内瑞拉作为一个国家的重建。

We see great examples.

我们看到了很好的例子。

Colombia is an interesting example.

哥伦比亚是一个有趣的例子。

Israel is, of course, a very important example of how you can support while not necessarily living in the territory, and taking the best advantage of such a large diaspora.

当然，以色列是一个非常重要的例子，说明了如何在不一定居住在该领土上的情况下提供支持，并充分利用如此庞大的侨民。

That diaspora in Venezuela has taken a lot of the best professionals.

委内瑞拉的侨民吸走了许多最优秀的专业人士。

Unfortunately, medical doctors, engineers, economists have left our country.

不幸的是，医生、工程师、经济学家已经离开了我们的国家。

Teachers, all sorts of professionals have left our country.

教师、各种专业人士都离开了我们的国家。

Of course, we would need for many of them to return, but the fact is that many of them will remain.

当然，我们需要他们中的许多人返回，但事实是他们中的许多人将留下来。

We need to figure out ways in which all those that remain and those that go back to Venezuela can support the reconstruction of our country.

我们需要找出让所有留下来的人和返回委内瑞拉的人能够支持我国重建的方法。

LÓPEZ: Well, to use the extraordinary leverage that the US has over Venezuela in order to pressure for a path towards democratization of Venezuela.

洛佩斯：嗯，利用美国对委内瑞拉的非凡影响力，向委内瑞拉施压，使其走上民主化之路。

That means free and fair elections.

这意味着自由和公平的选举。

To use the leverage of sanctions in order to promote a free and fair election in Venezuela.

利用制裁手段促进委内瑞拉举行自由公正的选举。

LÓPEZ: I continue to be very involved in Venezuelan politics in the sense that I have the responsibility of a political party.

洛佩斯：我继续积极参与委内瑞拉政治，因为我负有政党的责任。

However, we are giving more and more responsibilities to those who remain in Venezuela.

然而，我们正在赋予那些留在委内瑞拉的人越来越多的责任。

I’m also doing a fellowship at the Wilson Center in Washington, DC, where I am working and researching on the rise of autocracy as a global phenomenon, the decrease in democracies, and particularly the way in which freedom movements have evolved over the past years, and thinking about ways in which we can improve the efficiency, the capacity, the buildup, grassroots organization of freedom movements in Venezuela and elsewhere.

我还在华盛顿特区的威尔逊中心做研究员，在那里我正在研究独裁作为一种全球现象的兴起、民主国家的衰落，特别是自由运动在过去几年中的演变方式，并思考如何提高委内瑞拉和其他地方自由运动的效率、能力、建设和基层组织。

That has taken me to be involved with different universities.

这让我参与了不同的大学。

I spent some time at Stanford University in March.

三月份我在斯坦福大学呆了一段时间。

I was at Harvard last week, in GW a couple of months ago.

上周我在哈佛大学，几个月前在乔治城。

I’m also trying to articulate a space, a movement of leaders and movements from countries that are living today under autocratic regimes, to articulate, in a better way, a common struggle for freedom.

我还试图阐明一个空间、一场领导人运动以及来自当今生活在专制政权下的国家的运动，以更好的方式阐明争取自由的共同斗争。

Those are the three things I’m doing.

这就是我正在做的三件事。

LÓPEZ: Well, with the international group, we were thinking of hosting or promoting what we call the World Liberty Congress by the end of this year.

洛佩斯：嗯，我们正在考虑与国际组织一起在今年年底之前主办或宣传我们所谓的世界自由大会。

We hope to have this event in Vilnius, Lithuania, to gather leaders and movements from all over the world and come with ways in which we can collaborate with each other, we can communicate, we can advocate, and we can also join efforts in such important issues, like how to address the kleptocratic network that has been functioning among the autocratic regimes that lead to huge levels of corruption and that are the source of maintaining these autocratic regimes.

我们希望在立陶宛维尔纽斯举办这次活动，聚集来自世界各地的领导人和运动，并以各种方式相互合作，我们可以沟通，我们可以倡导，我们也可以在这些重要问题上共同努力，例如如何解决专制政权之间一直运作的盗贼网络，该网络导致了严重的腐败，也是维持这些专制政权的根源。

There are many ways in which we are looking to collaborate among leaders and movements.

我们寻求领导人和运动之间的合作有多种方式。

There’s no such movement of this sort today, and we hope to promote the first steps for a global movement for liberty and freedom.

今天还没有这样的运动，我们希望推动全球自由运动迈出第一步。

LÓPEZ: Thank you very much, Tyler.

洛佩斯：非常感谢你，泰勒。

Thank you and your audience.

谢谢你和你的观众。