Lazarus Lake on Endurance, Uncertainty, and Reaching One’s Potential (Ep. 190)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today we have a running episode.
今天我们有一个连续剧。
I am chatting with Gary Cantrell, who is better known as Lazarus Lake.
我正在与加里·坎特雷尔（Gary Cantrell）聊天，他更广为人知的名字是拉撒路湖（Lazarus Lake）。
He is an endurance race designer and director as well as a former runner himself.
他是一位耐力赛设计师和总监，同时他本人也曾是一名跑步运动员。
He does ultramarathons.
他参加超级马拉松。
His races include the Barkley Marathons, Big’s Backyard Ultra, Vol State 500K, A Race for the Ages, and much more.
他参加的比赛包括巴克利马拉松、Big’s Backyard Ultra、Vol State 500K、A Race for the Ages 等等。
Lazarus is also star of a 2014 film, The Barkley Marathons: The Race That Eats Its Young.
拉扎勒斯还是 2014 年电影《巴克利马拉松：吞噬年轻人的竞赛》的主演。
Wikipedia states, and I quote, “His races are known to be especially grueling.
维基百科指出，我引用一下：“众所周知，他的比赛特别艰苦。
Trail Runner magazine called him ‘an evil genius,’ ‘the Leonardo da Vinci of pain,’ ‘a master of sadomasochistic craft.’ Yet, his races have developed an almost cult-like following.”
《越野跑者》杂志称他为“邪恶的天才”、“痛苦中的达芬奇”、“施虐受虐大师”。然而，他的比赛已经培养了近乎狂热的追随者。
My view, of course, as your podcast host is much more positive than that.
当然，作为播客主持人，我的看法比这要积极得多。
Since Lazarus’s event at Frozen Head State Park began in 1986, only 17 people have finished it.
自 1986 年在冰头州立公园举办的 Lazarus 活动开始以来，只有 17 人完成了这项活动。
In most years, there are no finishers at all within the 60-hour time limit.
大多数年份，在 60 小时的时限内根本没有完成者。
Entrance pay, I believe, is $1.60 to face the challenge.
我相信，面对挑战的入场费是 1.60 美元。
Lazarus also has worked as an accountant and a city treasurer.
拉扎勒斯还担任过会计师和市财务主管。
Lazarus, welcome.
拉撒路，欢迎。
How’s it going?
怎么样了？
All is going well.
一切都很顺利。
I have some very simple questions about what you do.
我对你的工作有一些非常简单的问题。
What does running 100 miles tell you about yourself that running 26 miles does not?
跑 100 英里可以让您了解什么，而跑 26 英里则不能？
I guess it probably tells you four times as much about yourself.
我想它可能会告诉你四倍的关于你自己的信息。
It’s not really an extension of the same thing.
它实际上并不是同一事物的延伸。
It’s a whole day instead of just a morning.
这是一整天，而不仅仅是一个早上。
People come away and they report what to you about what they learned?
人们离开后向你报告他们所学到的东西？
I think each time you step up a level, you find out that you can do a lot more than you thought you could do.
我认为每次你提升一个级别，你都会发现你可以做的事情比你想象的要多得多。
Do you think that’s true in most human spheres of endeavor?
您认为在大多数人类努力领域都是如此吗？
I think it would be true in all of them.
我想这对所有人来说都是如此。
I think that the experiences people have improve them across the sphere of their lives.
我认为人们的经历可以改善他们的生活。
Why are there so many STEM professionals doing your ultramarathons?
为什么有这么多 STEM 专业人士参加你们的超级马拉松？
Why are they so well represented?
为什么他们的代表性如此出色？
The races that we have, the one like Barkley — it’s a problem-solving exercise.
我们举办的比赛，像巴克利这样的比赛——这是一项解决问题的练习。
There are a lot of different variables that you have to be able to master in order to be able to complete it, and they like challenges.
为了能够完成它，你必须能够掌握很多不同的变量，而且他们喜欢挑战。
What would some of those variables be?
其中一些变量是什么？
Of course, you have to be able to use a map and compass.
当然，你必须会使用地图和指南针。
You don’t have to be the world’s greatest orienteering expert, but you have to be competent.
你不必是世界上最伟大的定向运动专家，但你必须有能力。
You have to be able to find your way around in the woods.
你必须能够在树林里找到路。
You have to be able to manage your own physical well-being because there’s no aid station, so you have to pack and prepare for what you need to maintain your run.
您必须能够管理自己的身体健康，因为没有急救站，所以您必须收拾行李并准备好维持跑步所需的物品。
Then, in addition, at Frozen Head, you have a highly variable climate where you could encounter — it could be 80 degrees and 15 degrees on the same loop.
此外，在 Frozen Head，您可能会遇到高度多变的气候，在同一个环路上可能会遇到 80 度和 15 度的气温。
How do the runners manage their water supplies?
跑步者如何管理供水？
They have to carry it with them.
他们必须随身携带它。
We put a couple of water drops out on the course so that they could restock.
我们在球场上放了一些水滴，以便它们可以补充。
But if it’s below freezing, that water might be frozen, and they might have to find some in a stream somewhere, or a spring.
但如果温度低于冰点，水可能会结冰，他们可能必须在某处的小溪或泉水中找到一些水。
Of all of those skills, which is the most scarce?
在所有这些技能中，哪一个是最稀缺的？
Which holds people back the most, apart from just the running and the endurance?
除了跑步和耐力之外，什么最阻碍人们前进？
What are they most likely to screw up?
他们最有可能搞砸什么？
I think these days, navigation is a bigger problem than it used to be because people have become dependent upon GPS.
我认为现在导航是一个比以前更大的问题，因为人们已经变得依赖 GPS。
If you don’t use part of your brain, it withers.
如果你不使用大脑的一部分，它就会枯萎。
If you’re not accustomed to knowing, in your head, where you are and just listening for a little voice to tell you when to turn next, it’s something of a problem because they don’t get to take GPS.
如果您不习惯在脑海中知道自己在哪里，并且不习惯只听一个小声音告诉您下一步何时转弯，那么这就会成为一个问题，因为他们无法使用 GPS。
They literally end up lost in the woods, some people.
有些人最终在树林里迷路了。
It happens.
它发生了。
What happens to them then?
那么他们会怎样呢？
They stay there for the rest of their lives?
他们要在那里度过余生吗？
They wander slowly back to civilization, or .
他们慢慢地回到文明世界，或者。
.
。
.
。
What becomes of them?
他们会怎样？
They send out a call for help?
他们发出求救电话？
If they don’t find their way out in a couple of days, we’ll go look for them.
如果他们几天后还找不到出路，我们就会去找他们。
Usually, they will.
通常，他们会的。
So far, they’ve always found their way out.
到目前为止，他们总能找到出路。
That’s the incentive.
这就是激励。
Sometimes they wander around for an extended period of time lost, but that’s what they signed up for.
有时他们会在很长一段时间内徘徊，但这就是他们报名的目的。
They’re on their own.
他们只能靠自己了。
All the electronics and all the conveniences of modern life are gone, and they just rely on themselves.
现代生活的所有电子产品和所有便利设施都消失了，他们只能依靠自己。
If someone sprains an ankle, eventually you find them, or they try to hobble back?
如果有人扭伤脚踝，最终你会找到他们，还是他们会试图一瘸一拐地回来？
We have a 100 percent self-extraction, including a couple of broken ankles, dislocated clavicle, a fractured kneecap.
我们有100%的自救，包括几个脚踝骨折、锁骨脱臼、膝盖骨骨折。
The people that do this are a different breed.
这样做的人是不同的品种。
They’re physically pretty tough, and they get themselves out.
他们的体力非常强健，而且他们能够摆脱困境。
How many military people or, say, former Navy SEALs do this?
有多少军人或前海豹突击队员这样做？
Or are they not a major clientele?
或者他们不是主要客户？
You do get special forces, not just from the US but from other countries.
你确实有特种部队，不仅来自美国，而且来自其他国家。
It’s the kind of thing that appeals to them.
这是吸引他们的事情。
You had some Ukrainians recently, is that correct?
你最近有一些乌克兰人，对吗？
We have people from all over the world.
我们有来自世界各地的人。
I know we’ve had Ukrainians in the past.
我知道我们过去有过乌克兰人。
I’m not sure we’ve had one in the last couple of years.
我不确定过去几年我们是否有过这样的经历。
If you think about the motivations of these people, how much is it they’re bored with their old goals, or how much they want to show status, or are they wrestling with inner demons, or all of the above?
如果你思考一下这些人的动机，他们有多少是对自己的旧目标感到厌倦，或者他们有多少想要展示地位，或者他们是在与内心的恶魔搏斗，还是以上所有？
How do you think about what brings them to do this?
您如何看待他们这样做的原因？
Different people would do it for different reasons, but for the most part, they’re really seeking the freedom that comes with being totally dependent on yourself.
不同的人会出于不同的原因这样做，但在大多数情况下，他们实际上是在寻求完全依赖自己带来的自由。
Then on top of that is the challenge of doing something that is about a 1 percent finish rate.
除此之外，还有完成率约为 1% 的挑战。
You have selected the best of the best, and out of those, only the 1 percent make it.
你已经选出了最好的人，而其中只有百分之一的人能够成功。
Everybody would like to think that they’re 1 percent of the 1 percent.
每个人都愿意认为自己是那 1% 中的 1%。
Before your health interfered, you used to run ultramarathons.
在您的健康受到影响之前，您曾经参加过超级马拉松比赛。
What were your goals?
你的目标是什么？
I was never more than a mediocre runner, so my goals were to do better than I had done before.
我只是一个平庸的跑步者，所以我的目标是比以前做得更好。
I set lofty goals and didn’t always achieve them.
我设定了崇高的目标，但并不总能实现。
I actually thought at one point I could finish the Barkley.
我实际上一度认为我可以完成巴克利。
Did you try?
你尝试过吗？
Oh yes.
哦是的。
I tell people I got my hundred miles, but it took five years, which is not a bad time at the Barkley.
我告诉人们我已经跑了一百英里，但花了五年时间，这在巴克利并不是一个糟糕的时光。
You’ve designed the course.
您设计了课程。
In terms of when and where to turn, you would know that more automatically than the other participants.
至于何时何地转向，你会比其他参与者更自然地知道。
I definitely had a big leg up on finding my way, but I actually did take a wrong turn once that cost me about four hours.
我确实在找路方面有很大优势，但实际上我确实走错了方向，花了我大约四个小时。
Let’s say a friend of yours went to you and said they wanted to train their kids or their grandkids in resilience, sticking with it, durability — what advice would you give them based on what you’ve learned?
假设你的一个朋友去找你，说他们想训练他们的孩子或孙子的韧性、坚持性、持久性 ——根据你所学到的知识，你会给他们什么建议？
I think being in any sport helps you develop those characteristics.
我认为参加任何运动都可以帮助你发展这些特征。
I would recommend for kids that they play sports that are appropriate to their age with people their age.
我建议孩子们与同龄人一起进行适合他们年龄的运动。
If they were a runner, that they should run track and field and run on the school team or the club team with other athletes that are the same age.
如果他们是一名跑步运动员，他们应该参加田径比赛，并与其他同龄的运动员一起参加学校队或俱乐部队的比赛。
The ultramarathons are more a place where older people are involved.
超级马拉松更多的是老年人参与的地方。
When you say older, you mean in their 30s or much older, or?
当你说年龄更大时，你的意思是30多岁或更老，或者？
From their 30s up.
从30多岁开始。
We have the ARFTA race, A Race for the Ages.
我们有 AFTA 竞赛，一场永恒的竞赛。
We’ll have 35 or 40 runners in the field every year that are over 70, with the oldest runners up into their 90s.
每年我们都会有 35 到 40 名 70 岁以上的跑步者参加比赛，其中最年长的跑步者已经有 90 多岁了。
How old do you think is the oldest finisher of the 17 ?
您认为这 17 名选手中最年长的完赛者年龄有多大？
Oh, that’s easy.
哦，这很容易。
David Horton did it when he was 50.
大卫霍顿在 50 岁时做到了这一点。
It was his 11th attempt.
这是他第11次尝试。
Do you think it’s possible to do it at 70?
你觉得70岁还能做到吗？
No. I bet it’s not really possible to do it at 50.
不，我敢打赌 50 岁时真的不可能做到这一点。
But someone did it.
但有人做到了。
Someone did it, but we like to do the impossible.
有人做到了，但我们喜欢做不可能的事情。
What’s special about that guy who did it at 50?
那个在50岁时做到这一点的人有什么特别之处？
David Horton — he’s one of the great ultrarunners.
大卫·霍顿——他是最伟大的超级跑运动员之一。
He’s considerably older than 50 now, but he was, through his career, one of the better ultrarunners in the country.
他现在已经 50 多岁了，但在他的职业生涯中，他是全国最好的超级跑步运动员之一。
He was good at all the skill sets, and he kept trying and honing it down.
他擅长所有技能，并且不断尝试和磨练。
He had several near misses before he finally got it.
在他最终得到它之前，他曾有过几次险些失手的经历。
Why is it that it’s running as a sport that is correlated with the endurance mentality?
为什么跑步作为一项与耐力心态相关的运动呢？
I never see endurance tennis matches or endurance basketball games.
我从来没有看过耐力网球比赛或耐力篮球比赛。
Not even endurance podcasts.
甚至耐力播客也没有。
Why running?
为什么要跑步？
I guess because it lends itself to it.
我想是因为它适合它。
People want to see how far they can go.
人们想看看自己能走多远。
The people who want to do that — if you think of the evolution since 1986 — how have those people changed as a group or a class of participants?
想要这样做的人 ——如果你想想自 1986 年以来的演变 —— 这些人作为一个群体或一类参与者发生了怎样的变化？
Humans have a collective ability.
人类具有集体能力。
I guess it’s unique among animals that we can compare what we’ve learned and learn from each other.
我想这在动物中是独一无二的，我们可以比较我们所学到的东西并互相学习。
The skill sets of the people that tried it first in 1986 were not comparable to today.
1986 年首次尝试该技术的人们的技能水平与今天无法相比。
And the equipment is a lot better.
而且装备也好很多。
In 1986, state-of-the-art lighting was a carbide lamp because your old flashlights with the bulb — you’d have to carry 10 pounds of batteries to get you through the night with good light.
1986 年，最先进的照明是碳化物灯，因为你的旧手电筒带有灯泡，你必须携带 10 磅的电池才能在夜晚保持良好的光线。
Now, they have those little LED bulbs, and it just takes a battery for the whole race.
现在，他们有了那些小 LED 灯泡，整个比赛只需要一块电池。
As for the people themselves, what’s the main dimension along which they’ve improved?
至于人本身，主要提升的维度是什么？
Just all of the fine skills of finding their way using the map, how to prepare the map, what to carry for nutrition.
就是使用地图找路的所有技巧，如何准备地图，携带什么来补充营养。
Of course, their clothing has improved as much as their lights have.
当然，他们的服装和灯光一样得到了改善。
You don’t have to carry as bulky of clothing.
您不必携带笨重的衣服。
You have to carry a light enough pack that it doesn’t destroy you to carry it up and down all those big hills, but you have to be able to cope with it being 80 degrees or 15 degrees.
你必须携带一个足够轻的背包，这样在那些大山上爬上爬下时不会对你造成伤害，但你必须能够应对 80 度或 15 度的温度。
I read one source online.
我在网上阅读了一份资料。
It suggested that going up and down the hills was basically the equivalent of twice the height of Mount Everest.
据推测，上下山的路程基本上相当于珠穆朗玛峰高度的两倍。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
It’s a little more than that, and that would be from sea level.
比这个多一点，那是从海平面开始的。
I don’t know why that’s an important distinction to me because it doesn’t mean anything to most people, but from the base of Everest to the top is not 29,000 feet.
我不知道为什么这对我来说是一个重要的区别，因为它对大多数人来说没有任何意义，但从珠穆朗玛峰的底部到顶部并不是 29,000 英尺。
That’s how high the peak is from sea level.
这就是山顶距海平面的高度。
All this is taking place in eastern Tennessee.
这一切都发生在田纳西州东部。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
It is.
这是。
They’re little puny mountains by Western standards.
按照西方标准，它们只是微不足道的小山。
The highest peak is 3,380 feet.
最高峰为 3,380 英尺。
It’s only about 2,000 feet from the bottom of the mountains to the top.
从山脚到山顶只有大约2000英尺。
You just do that distance repeatedly, and they’re extremely steep because of the geology of the area.
你只需重复这个距离，由于该地区的地质情况，它们非常陡峭。
Would you describe it as fairly rocky?
你会形容它相当崎岖吗？
Or what else would you say about the environment?
或者对于环境你还有什么想说的吗？
It’s pretty rocky, but there’s a lot of undergrowth.
虽然岩石很多，但有很多灌木丛。
It’s not as rocky as the Western mountains, which are newer and don’t have as much soil and undergrowth on them, plus they extend higher into the atmosphere.
它不像西部山脉那样多岩石，西部山脉较新，没有那么多土壤和灌木丛，而且它们延伸到更高的大气层中。
What’s the chance you run into a bear?
你遇到熊的几率有多大？
Not very good because you’re making too much noise.
不太好，因为你发出太多噪音。
You’ll probably be around a bear, but they’ll hear you long before you get close.
您可能会在熊身边，但在您靠近之前它们就会听到您的声音。
Which are the elements of those races that most often break people when they break?
那些比赛中最容易让人崩溃的因素是什么？
I think it’s the cumulative climb.
我认为这是累积的攀登。
The race is 100 miles, and the time limit is extremely slow by 100-milers.
比赛全程100英里，时间限制极其慢100英里。
For people who run distance, they’re thinking 100 miles in 24 hours is hard.
对于长距离跑步的人来说，他们认为 24 小时内跑完 100 英里很难。
This one gives you 60 hours.
这个给你 60 个小时。
They perceive it as being extremely extended low-level effort, but because the pitch is so extreme, it’s actually a really slow time, which requires you to have all of your gauges, we like to say, on the red line.
他们认为这是极其长时间的低水平努力，但由于音调如此极端，这实际上是一个非常缓慢的时间，这要求你将所有的仪表，我们喜欢说，放在红线上。
You’re pushing it as close as you can get to blowing your motor.
你把它推得尽可能接近烧坏你的电机。
Pacing themselves is one of the skills they need to have.
调整自己的节奏是他们需要具备的技能之一。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Yes.
是的。
They have to be physically in the best condition of their lives.
他们的身体状况必须处于一生中最好的状态。
The training takes people right to the edge of injury just training for it.
训练将人们带到受伤的边缘，只是为了训练而训练。
Then you have to be able to push your body to its maximum extent without something breaking down.
然后你必须能够将你的身体推到最大程度而不发生任何故障。
Are you ever worried about government regulation intervening and stopping what you’re doing?
您是否担心政府监管会干预并阻止您正在做的事情？
Would they allow this in Massachusetts?, is one way to put it.
一种说法是，他们会允许马萨诸塞州这样做吗？
I think that we’re greatly aided by being grandfathered in.
我认为我们受到祖父的帮助很大。
When people try to set up similar events, say, in Europe, they make them put a tracker on everybody because the government wants to protect you from yourself.
当人们试图在欧洲举办类似的活动时，他们会让每个人都安装追踪器，因为政府希望保护你免受自己的伤害。
But we’ve always done it.
但我们一直都这么做。
They’ll say, “Well, the tracker wouldn’t make a difference because it doesn’t tell the runner where they are.” But it tells the runner someone knows where they are.
他们会说：“好吧，追踪器不会有什么不同，因为它不会告诉跑步者他们在哪里。”但它告诉跑步者有人知道他们在哪里。
When they get out there to make these decisions on how to approach different things, they have to bear in mind, there’s no tracker on them.
当他们出去就如何处理不同的事情做出决定时，他们必须记住，他们身上没有跟踪器。
Nobody knows where they are.
没有人知道他们在哪里。
If they do something really stupid, they’re going to end up being somewhere that they have to wait until someone finds them, and it does have an effect even if it doesn’t tell you where you are.
如果他们做了一些非常愚蠢的事情，他们最终会到达某个地方，必须等待有人找到他们，即使它不告诉你你在哪里，它确实会产生影响。
In today’s world, being totally separate from your electronics is .
在当今世界，与电子产品完全分离是很重要的。
.
。
.
。
In 1986, it wasn’t that big of a deal because you weren’t constantly in contact, but now people are wired all the time.
在 1986 年，这没什么大不了的，因为你不会经常保持联系，但现在人们总是保持联系。
So they have a withdrawal, some of them.
所以他们撤回了，其中一些人。
Like, “Oh my goodness, where’s my email?”
就像，“天哪，我的电子邮件在哪里？”
No, they have plenty to occupy their mind.
不，他们有很多事要忙。
Probably if you just took all their electronics away and sent them on an average day, it’d be a struggle.
如果你只是把他们所有的电子产品拿走并在平常的一天寄出，这可能会很困难。
It would be a struggle for me without my email to check.
如果没有我的电子邮件来检查，这对我来说将是一场斗争。
What am I going to do?
我要做什么？
Do you think it’s easier when people say, “Oh, I’m just going to take this race one step at a time,” or is that a mistake?
你认为当人们说“哦，我只是一步一步地参加这场比赛”时，这会更容易吗？还是这是一个错误？
It’s a combination.
这是一个组合。
In any of the endurance events, you really have to have two things in your mind.
在任何耐力项目中，你必须牢记两件事。
One is that you’re focused on finishing.
一是你专注于完成。
You can’t do any 100-miler and say, “I’m going to run 50 miles and then evaluate,” because that can save you a lot of trouble if 50 miles, you’re going to decide to stop.
你不能在跑完 100 英里后说：“我要跑 50 英里，然后进行评估”，因为如果跑了 50 英里，你决定停下来，这可以为你省去很多麻烦。
At the same time, you have to live in the moment.
同时，你必须活在当下。
You can’t think about how much is ahead of you because your mind just can’t wrap itself around all of it at once.
你无法思考前面还有多少事情，因为你的大脑无法一次性解决所有问题。
If you’re in a lot of discomfort right at this moment .
如果您此时感到很不舒服。
.
。
.
。
The races have a trajectory.
比赛有一个轨迹。
You’ll have up periods and down periods and up periods and down periods.
你会有上升期和下降期，也会有上升期和下降期。
When you’re on the downslope, your mind just projects it to go down forever, and you think, “Oh, I can’t go that low.” But if you just stay in the moment, in a while, you’ll find yourself in a better place.
当你处于下坡路时，你的大脑只会预测它会永远下降，然后你会想：“哦，我不能走那么低。”但如果你只是停留在当下，过一段时间，你会发现自己处于一个更好的地方。
There’s a researcher named Ethan Kross, and he’s argued that if you keep on saying to yourself, “You can do it.
有一位名叫伊森·克罗斯（Ethan Kross）的研究人员，他认为如果你不断对自己说：“你可以做到。
You can do it,” a kind of self-talk, that helps.
你能做到”，这是一种自言自语，很有帮助。
Do you agree?
你同意？
For myself, when I’m involved in something like this, there’s not really time to give myself a pep talk.
就我自己而言，当我卷入这样的事情时，我真的没有时间给自己打气。
I’m totally absorbed with doing what I’m doing.
我完全专注于我正在做的事情。
I actually prefer to approach things with a little bit of doubt.
事实上，我更喜欢带着一点怀疑来处理事情。
A couple of years ago, I walked across the country.
几年前，我徒步穿越了这个国家。
I walked from the East Coast to the West Coast.
我从东海岸步行到西海岸。
While I could still smell the ocean, people would say, “You’ve got this.” I would think, “Well, then, why go through all this discomfort if I already know I can?” I believed I could make it to the Pacific Ocean when I topped the last mountain in the Coastal Range, and I could see it.
虽然我还能闻到大海的味道，但人们会说：“你有这个。”我会想，“那么，如果我已经知道我可以，为什么要经历所有这些不适呢？”当我登上海岸山脉的最后一座山时，我相信我可以到达太平洋，并且我可以看到它。
You didn’t just walk along interstates?
你不只是沿着州际公路行走吗？
No. I walked some interstate, I walked open range, I cut across parking lots.
不。我走了一些州际公路，我走在开阔的范围内，我穿过停车场。
I was committed to having a continuous string of footprints from coast to coast, but I was not committed to them going any particular place.
我致力于从一个海岸到另一个海岸留下一串连续的脚印，但我不承诺它们去任何特定的地方。
The easiest way I could get through, the better.
我能通过的最简单的方法越好。
Did you listen to music or podcasts while you were walking?
您走路时听音乐或播客吗？
No, that would interfere with the voices in my head.
不，那会干扰我脑子里的声音。
What did they tell you?
他们告诉你什么了？
Actually, I spent most of the time .
事实上，我花了大部分时间。
.
。
.
。
Between days, I would read about the geology of the area I’d just seen and read about the history and other things of the area I was going into.
几天之内，我会阅读有关我刚刚看到的地区的地质情况，并阅读有关我即将进入的地区的历史和其他事情。
Then local people would tell me things about the places I was that otherwise, you wouldn’t know.
然后当地人会告诉我有关我去过的地方的事情，否则你不会知道。
It was an intense educational experience that really kept me mentally fully occupied all the way across.
这是一次紧张的教育经历，让我一路上精神饱满。
For ultramarathons, how much do shoes make a difference?
对于超级马拉松来说，鞋子的作用有多大？
I prefer to wear shoes.
我比较喜欢穿鞋。
I know there are people that go barefoot, but shoes are better.
我知道有些人赤脚，但穿鞋更好。
Why do they prefer barefoot?
为什么他们更喜欢赤脚？
That seems odd to me.
这对我来说似乎很奇怪。
I won’t speculate whether there’s some real benefit to it or not, but shoes greatly reduce the number of injuries you’re going to get to the skin on your feet.
我不会猜测它是否有任何真正的好处，但鞋子可以大大减少脚部皮肤受伤的次数。
How prevalent is doping when people do ultramarathons?
人们参加超级马拉松时服用兴奋剂的情况有多普遍？
I don’t think it’s really prevalent because there’s not a lot of real motivation to do it.
我认为这种做法并不普遍，因为没有太多真正的动力去做这件事。
Nobody’s making big bucks as an ultramarathoner.
没有人能作为超级马拉松运动员赚大钱。
I suspect you see it to some extent among people where you would wonder why?
我怀疑你在某种程度上在人们中看到了这一点，你会想知道为什么？
You’re an age group competitor, you’re not running at the front.
你是一个年龄段的竞争者，你没有跑在前面。
But about anything there is that people could do, somebody does it.
但凡是人们能做的事情，总会有人去做。
What are some possible ways people might try to cheat?
人们可能会通过哪些方式进行欺骗？
The most common one is to cut part of the distance off.
最常见的一种是缩短部分距离。
You do occasionally have people who cheat.
偶尔也会有人作弊。
You read about them in marathons, and you would have periodically the same thing in ultrarunning.
你在马拉松比赛中读到过这些内容，在超级跑比赛中你也会定期看到同样的内容。
I don’t think anybody except them really understands why they do it because ultramarathon performances don’t mean anything to anybody but you.
我认为除了他们之外没有人真正理解他们为什么这样做，因为超级马拉松表演对除了你之外的任何人都没有任何意义。
You have a book-page method to stop that, correct?
你有一个书页方法可以阻止这种情况，对吗？
In the Barkley, it’s pretty effective.
在巴克利，这非常有效。
We have checkpoints that are paperback books.
我们有平装书的检查站。
Everyone tears out the page of the book that matches their bib number.
每个人都撕下与他们的号码相匹配的书页。
We count all the book pages when they get back.
当他们回来时我们会清点所有的书页数。
If they don’t have the page, you figure they cheated, or somehow they just don’t win.
如果他们没有这个页面，你就会认为他们作弊了，或者不知何故他们没有获胜。
Well, no, if you don’t have all your pages, you don’t count.
好吧，不，如果你没有所有的页面，你就不算数。
It doesn’t matter.
没关系。
We don’t really correlate it that you cheated.
我们并没有真正将你作弊联系起来。
Usually, people have lost a page, forgot to get a page.
通常，人们丢失了一页，忘记了获取一页。
They’ve made some kind of other mistake.
他们还犯了其他一些错误。
And they don’t count as having won.
他们并不算赢。
If they’re missing a page, that’s it, right?
如果他们缺少一页，那就是这样，对吗？
No go.
不去。
If they’re missing a page, there’s no go.
如果他们缺了一页，那就没办法了。
How do you choose which books to put out?
您如何选择要出版哪些书？
That’s a lot of fun.
这很有趣。
We pick books that have appropriate titles.
我们挑选具有适当标题的书籍。
Such as?
例如？
My favorite one was the last book on the loop.
我最喜欢的是循环中的最后一本书。
It wasn’t always easy, but I sure had fun.
这并不总是那么容易，但我确实很开心。
We have a theme every year.
我们每年都有一个主题。
One year the theme was “the Barkley Marathons, where dreams go to die.” Another year it was “the only thing that buckles here is your knees.” Buckling is a runner’s term for finishing within a certain time and winning a belt buckle.
有一年的主题是“巴克利马拉松，梦想在这里破灭”。又一年，“这里唯一弯曲的是你的膝盖。”扣扣是跑步者的术语，指在一定时间内完成比赛并赢得皮带扣。
We take that year’s theme, and we try to pick books that fit with the theme, and then we go through the course.
我们以当年的主题为基础，尝试挑选符合该主题的书籍，然后再进行课程的学习。
Since we know when it starts, and we know where it goes, and you have an idea what runners have been through, what they’re coming to, what time of day it is, a little bit of a peek into their mind about what they’re thinking or how they’re feeling — you try to make the book titles match.
因为我们知道它什么时候开始，我们知道它去向哪里，而且你知道跑步者经历了什么，他们将要经历什么，一天中的什么时间，稍微了解一下他们的想法或感受 - 你尝试使书名匹配。
Ninety percent of the people — they don’t ever notice, but some of them catch on, and they think we’re really messing with them with the way the book titles are laid out.
百分之九十的人 ——他们从来没有注意到，但他们中的一些人明白了，他们认为我们真的在用书名的布局方式来扰乱他们。
Why don’t you charge more than $1.60 for people to run?
为什么不向人们收取超过 1.60 美元的跑步费用？
Because it’s only a small number of runners, and we don’t want it to be a feat of finance.
因为这只是一小部分跑步者，我们不希望这成为财务的壮举。
You have a lot of things that people do, but it’s really like going to the Titanic.
人们会做很多事情，但这真的就像去泰坦尼克号一样。
Going down on a submersible to see the Titanic doesn’t require skill or dedication or effort, just money.
乘坐潜水器去看泰坦尼克号不需要技巧、奉献精神或努力，只需要钱。
We don’t want money to be the deciding factor for the Barkley.
我们不希望钱成为巴克利的决定因素。
We want it to be a physical test, not a financial one.
我们希望它是一项身体测试，而不是财务测试。
Why don’t you charge less than $1.60, then?
那为什么收费不低于 1.60 美元呢？
Well, then I wouldn’t have money to buy Dr. Peppers with.
好吧，那我就没有钱去买 Dr. Peppers 了。
The early history of your races, how were they influenced by the experience of James Earl Ray?
你们比赛的早期历史，詹姆斯·厄尔·雷的经历是如何影响它们的？
Not really at all.
完全不是。
That’s a connection that seems to be popular with the media because this is where he escaped, and certainly, it was a big national story.
这种联系似乎很受媒体欢迎，因为这是他逃离的地方，当然，这是一个全国性的大故事。
It was a bigger story in Tennessee than anywhere else.
这在田纳西州比其他任何地方都是一个更大的故事。
It was really interesting to me because I had been hiking all through those mountains for years, and since I knew the terrain he was on, I was quite interested in seeing how he did.
这对我来说真的很有趣，因为我多年来一直在这些山脉中徒步旅行，而且因为我知道他所处的地形，所以我很想看看他是怎么做的。
But I think any comparisons we make to James Earl Ray are belittling his escape attempt more than anything else.
但我认为我们与詹姆斯·厄尔·雷的任何比较都比其他任何事情都更贬低他的逃跑尝试。
How did he do?
他做得怎么样？
He didn’t even make it the equivalent of a loop.
他甚至没有把它变成一个循环。
And that was with his supposed freedom at stake.
那是他所谓的自由受到威胁。
The signup process for the Barkley Marathon — it’s often considered opaque.
巴克利马拉松的报名过程通常被认为是不透明的。
How is it you decide who gets to run and who does not?
您如何决定谁可以参选，谁不能参选？
Even though we try to make it a little bit difficult to even submit an application, we get way too many.
尽管我们试图让提交申请变得有点困难，但我们还是收到了太多的申请。
They write an essay, and you look at the essays and try to pick out people who are going to get something from the experience.
他们写一篇文章，你查看这些文章并尝试挑选出那些能够从经历中获得一些东西的人。
You don’t want people who only are coming to post on Facebook that they came, or to get on the entry list so they can post on Facebook that they were entered and then drop out before they have to hurt.
你不希望人们只是在 Facebook 上发布他们来过的信息，或者进入参赛名单，以便他们可以在 Facebook 上发布他们被录用的信息，然后在受到伤害之前退出。
You still end up with a huge number of people.
最终你仍然拥有大量的人。
There’s a whole complex process of how we divide them out into different groups because we don’t want to have an impact on the wilderness area where the race is held.
我们如何将它们分成不同的组是一个完整的复杂过程，因为我们不想对举办比赛的荒野地区产生影响。
That’s really dependent not on the number of people but the number of laps.
这实际上不取决于人数，而取决于圈数。
You select people of different levels of ability so that the total number of laps will come out to around 190 laps.
你选择不同能力水平的人，这样总圈数将达到 190 圈左右。
We can nail it pretty well.
我们可以很好地解决它。
But then you get down to the people in those groups, and you just have to draw.
但当你深入到这些群体中的人时，你只需要画画。
I use the Excel random number generator.
我使用 Excel 随机数生成器。
Everybody’s put in a number that’s within a group, and I’m going to pick so many of them, and I just have it pick a number in that sequence, and that person gets in.
每个人都被放入一个组内的一个数字中，我要选择其中很多人，我只需让它按该顺序选择一个数字，然后那个人就可以加入。
And you think your process is working pretty well?
您认为您的流程运行得很好吗？
We get the right number of loops every year.
我们每年都会得到正确的循环次数。
Even this year, when we had three finishers, which is really unusual, we still had just about the same number of total laps that we always have.
即使今年，当我们有三名完赛者时（这确实很不寻常），我们的总圈数仍然与往常相同。
It was fewer, actually, total laps than we had last year with zero finishers.
实际上，总圈数比去年零完赛者的成绩要少。
And people need letters of recommendation when they apply?
人们申请时需要推荐信吗？
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
No, they write an essay.
不，他们写一篇论文。
Even if someone’s not particularly eloquent, if they write their essay, they reveal themselves.
即使某人不是特别能言善辩，但如果他们写了论文，他们就会展现自己。
They show who they are.
他们展示了他们是谁。
You want people that are going to get something out of the experience, not people that will hate it, and not people that really aren’t going to immerse themselves; they’re just going to dip their toe and then post that they were there and leave.
你希望人们能够从体验中得到一些东西，而不是讨厌它的人，而不是那些真正不会沉浸其中的人；他们只是简单地尝试一下，然后发布消息说他们在那里然后离开。
You have staff who help you with all of this?
您有员工可以帮助您完成这一切吗？
I’m transitioning it over to a guy named Carl Laniak because I won’t be around forever.
我正在把它交给一个叫卡尔·拉尼亚克的人，因为我不会永远在身边。
We just had to get rid of the nonproductive qualities.
我们只需要摆脱非生产性的品质。
He had empathy and other things that serve no purpose in a race of this nature.
他有同理心和其他在这种性质的种族中毫无用处的东西。
The people who help you — they’re volunteers, or you manage to pay them?
帮助你的人 ——他们是志愿者，还是你设法付钱给他们？
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
How do the economics of this hang together?
这其中的经济学如何结合在一起？
They’re all volunteers.
他们都是志愿者。
The race actually is not cheap to put on, and people donate.
事实上，举办这场比赛并不便宜，而且人们也捐款。
The biggest part of your donations come from entrants.
您的捐款的最大部分来自参赛者。
We have a Barkley fund where we put the donations and use it to pay for the race, and it’s maintained a positive balance since 1986.
我们有一个巴克利基金，我们将捐款用于支付比赛费用，自 1986 年以来一直保持正平衡。
It says something good about the people that run it.
它说明了运行它的人的一些优点。
Then we get some donations from people that just follow it on the internet and think it’s important something like this exists.
然后我们从那些在互联网上关注它的人那里得到一些捐款，并认为这样的事情的存在很重要。
Are you at liberty to say what running one of these might cost?
您是否可以自由地说运行其中一项可能需要花费多少钱？
For the individual running?
对于个人跑步？
No, for the whole aggregate enterprise, all expenses.
不，对于整个企业来说，所有费用。
Oh, God, I should be able to pop up a number right off the top of my head.
哦，上帝，我应该能够从我的头顶弹出一个数字。
I want to say it cost $8,000 or $10,000 to put it on, but we do a lot of stuff that would not necessarily be necessary.
我想说的是，安装它要花费 8,000 美元或 10,000 美元，但我们做了很多不一定是必要的事情。
We bring all the barricades and hang the flags of the countries and states where the runners come from, and having all these supplies requires us to rent a truck.
我们带来了所有的路障，并悬挂了参赛者所在国家和州的国旗，而拥有所有这些物资需要我们租一辆卡车。
When we first put it on, there was nothing.
当我们第一次戴上它时，什么也没有。
People showed up, and we ran.
人们出现了，我们就跑了。
You light a cigarette and you blow a conch shell, right?
你点一根烟，吹一个海螺壳，对吗？
We blow a conch shell to tell them that the start is an hour away.
我们吹响海螺壳告诉他们还有一个小时就要开始了。
Uncertainty is built into the Barkley everywhere because uncertainty is the most difficult thing for an athlete to deal with.
巴克利无处不在，因为不确定性是运动员最难应对的事情。
They don’t know where the course exactly goes until the day before the race.
直到比赛前一天他们才知道赛道到底在哪里。
They don’t know when it’s going to start until an hour before it starts.
他们直到开始前一小时才知道什么时候开始。
They know it’ll start between midnight and noon.
他们知道它将在午夜和中午之间开始。
If it doesn’t start until after daybreak, there’s a lot of sleepless nights because people are afraid they’ll miss the conch.
如果天亮后才开始，人们就会度过很多个不眠之夜，因为人们担心会错过海螺。
You can’t just Google online what time and place the next one is, right?
你不能只在网上谷歌一下下一场的时间和地点，对吧？
That’s somewhat of a mystery, or how does that work?
这有点神秘，或者说这是如何运作的？
We don’t tell what day the race will be run except to the people that are entered.
除了参赛者外，我们不会告诉比赛将在哪一天举行。
Of course, nobody knows the starting time.
当然，没有人知道开始时间。
Nobody knows the starting time for next year’s race right now except me and Carl.
现在除了我和卡尔之外，没有人知道明年比赛的开始时间。
Do you have media that show up?
你有媒体出现吗？
They somehow find out, or truly it stays a secret?
他们以某种方式发现了，或者这确实是一个秘密？
We kept it a secret up through 2000, and then we had some elements in the park system that didn’t want the race to exist.
我们一直保守这个秘密直到 2000 年，然后我们公园系统中的一些因素不希望比赛存在。
We realized in the struggle to keep going that we had to exist, so where we had been turning down media requests, we started accepting them.
我们在继续前进的斗争中意识到我们必须存在，所以在我们拒绝媒体请求的地方，我们开始接受它们。
Strangely enough, especially in ultramarathons where you would kill to get media exposure, we have to select the media that we let in at Barkley because the venue is small and limited.
奇怪的是，特别是在超级马拉松比赛中，你会不惜一切代价获得媒体曝光，我们必须选择在巴克利允许进入的媒体，因为场地狭小且有限。
You have to keep the number of people down, or there’s no place for the runners themselves.
你必须控制人数，否则跑步者就没有地方了。
Which media do you choose and why?
您选择哪种媒体？为什么？
First come, first served.
先到先得。
It could be just a freelance photographer or Sports Illustrated.
它可能只是一名自由摄影师或体育画报。
It was just a matter of which one we heard from first.
这只是我们首先听到哪一个的问题。
It seems fair.
看起来很公平。
Putting aside your own events, do you feel that ultramarathons have become too commercial?
抛开自己的赛事不谈，您是否觉得超级马拉松变得太商业化了？
They’re more commercial than they used to be.
他们比以前更加商业化。
Everything changes.
一切都变了。
I think that there are still plenty of places for people to have the same experience, and the personal experience is not driven by the commercialization of it.
我觉得还是有很多地方可以让人们有同样的体验，而且个人体验并不是由商业化来驱动的。
The slower time limits is a bigger change than commercialization.
较慢的时间限制是比商业化更大的变化。
When I started running ultras, the time limits were really pretty strict, and everybody who ran was young and in the prime of their career.
当我开始跑超跑时，时间限制真的非常严格，而且每个跑的人都很年轻，正处于职业生涯的黄金时期。
If you had somebody run into their 40s, or even 50s, they were this rare exception.
如果有人活到了 40 多岁，甚至 50 多岁，他们就是罕见的例外。
Now, a lot more people can run for a long time.
现在，更多的人可以长时间跑步。
It extended my career because they didn’t have the strict cut-offs they used to have.
它延长了我的职业生涯，因为他们没有以前那样严格的限制。
Eventually, you get old enough, you can’t make the cut-offs anyway.
最终，你长大了，无论如何你都无法做到这一点。
All of these are just the things that happen.
所有这些都只是正在发生的事情。
Things either change or they die.
事情要么改变，要么消亡。
How close do you think we are to the ultimate fundamental limits on human performance in running?
您认为我们距离人类跑步表现的最终基本极限还有多远？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I think in a global sense, that’s what the ultrarunning is all about.
我认为从全球意义上来说，这就是超级跑步的意义所在。
Certainly, at the top level, it’s looking for what are the limits.
当然，在顶层，它正在寻找限制。
We’re learning that people can learn and adapt to become better.
我们了解到人们可以通过学习和适应来变得更好。
Then there’s this ability of the mind to drive the body beyond what seems to be physically possible.
然后，心灵有能力驱动身体超越物理上的可能性。
Who knows where the real limit lies?
谁知道真正的极限在哪里？
If we look at all sports as a whole, what is the individual sports performance record that impresses you the most?
如果我们把所有运动作为一个整体来看，最让你印象深刻的个人运动成绩记录是什么？
I would say Joe DiMaggio’s streak: 61 games in a row with a hit.
我想说的是乔·迪马吉奥的连续纪录：连续 61 场比赛取得安打。
You can’t miss once.
一次都不能错过。
That to me seems really quite hard, but what would you say?
对我来说这确实很难，但你会怎么说呢？
I would have to sit and really think about that a long time because I’m an overall general sports fan, and there are so many amazing things that people have done.
我必须坐下来认真思考这个问题很长一段时间，因为我是一个普通的体育迷，人们做了很多令人惊奇的事情。
Then to try to compare different sports — you can’t even compare all the different running sports very easily.
然后尝试比较不同的运动 ——你甚至不能很容易地比较所有不同的跑步运动。
Have you ever seen the YouTube video where Steph Curry is shooting three-point shots?
你看过斯蒂芬·库里投三分球的 YouTube 视频吗？
If memory serves, he hits 95 in a row without missing.
如果没记错的话，他连续打出 95 球，没有失手。
I’ve seen exceptional high school shooters that can shoot pretty close to that.
我见过出色的高中射手，他们的射击能力非常接近。
On the one hand, I think you can’t have too much respect for people who develop that kind of consistency in their shooting, but it seems totally possible.
一方面，我认为你不能对那些在拍摄中培养出这种一致性的人给予太多的尊重，但这似乎完全有可能。
Are there conditions under which you would stop a race?
在什么情况下你会停止比赛？
We haven’t hit them yet, but there would be conditions where you would have to stop a race.
我们还没有达到它们，但在某些情况下你必须停止比赛。
They had a backyard in Finland this year.
今年他们在芬兰有一个后院。
It was their national championship race, and this huge storm went through with 100-mile-an-hour winds, and it strewed power lines all over the course.
这是他们的全国冠军赛，这场巨大的风暴以每小时 100 英里的风速席卷而来，电线遍布整个赛道。
They had to stop.
他们不得不停下来。
Only a fool runs through live power lines on the ground.
只有傻瓜才会穿过地面上的带电电线。
If you put aside the 17 people who have finished Barkley and just look at American society as a whole, do you see overall a shortage of stoicism and inner strength, a decline of manliness?
如果抛开完成巴克利的17人，只看整个美国社会，你会发现总体上缺乏坚忍和内在力量，男子气概下降吗？
How do you view where we’re headed as a country?
您如何看待我们国家的发展方向？
Well, up until just a couple of years ago, I was an assistant coach on a high school basketball team, and today’s kids are great.
嗯，直到几年前，我还是一支高中篮球队的助理教练，现在的孩子们都很棒。
I go out and do these journey runs where I’m just exposed and out there with people, and people are good.
我出去进行这些旅程跑步，在那里我只是暴露在外面，和人们在一起，人们都很好。
We just had an event where we took 82 people, and we put them on buses and we bused them 350 miles away.
我们刚刚举办了一场活动，带了 82 个人，把他们送上巴士，然后将他们送到 350 英里之外。
They parked in a hayfield on top of a mountain in north Georgia.
他们把车停在佐治亚州北部一座山顶的干草地上。
We bused them 350 miles away and put them on the side of the road with a map.
我们用巴士将他们送到 350 英里外，并把他们和地图放在路边。
They had 10 days to get back to their car.
他们有 10 天的时间回到他们的车上。
They set out, the first few people that went through the towns on the way — they would think “That’s a really fast homeless guy,” and then they would ask, “What’s going on?”
他们出发了，路上最先经过城镇的几个人会想：“那真是一个无家可归的家伙，”然后他们会问，“发生了什么事？”
The next thing you knew, people were putting coolers of drinks out by the road outside their house.
接下来你知道的事情是，人们把冷藏饮料放在屋外的路边。
They were loading up stuff and taking it and driving down the road to see where the runners were.
他们正在装载东西，然后沿着路行驶，看看跑步者在哪里。
The race is called the Heart of the South, and it’s not about the physical location; it’s about the people.
这场比赛被称为“南方之心”，它的地理位置无关紧要。这是关于人的。
The rural South doesn’t have a great reputation as a humanitarian area, but the support that people got along the way and the help and the things that everyone did for them — and no one was asking who was a Republican or who was a Democrat.
南方农村地区作为人道主义地区并不享有盛誉，但人们一路走来所得到的支持、帮助以及每个人为他们所做的事情——而且没有人问谁是共和党人或谁是民主党人。
There were people helping people, being out on the road as opposed to just watching the selective stuff on TV, and working with the kids instead of just reading about them.
人们帮助别人，走在路上，而不是只看电视上选择性的内容，与孩子们一起工作，而不是仅仅阅读有关他们的内容。
This is a great place, and it’s full of good people.
这是一个很棒的地方，而且到处都是好人。
I think that if we just don’t lose our confidence in ourselves, this country is going the right way.
我认为，只要我们不失去对自己的信心，这个国家就会走在正确的道路上。
But say I read in the newspapers, the military complains that some fairly high percentage of American kids are not in good enough shape to even join the military.
但据说我在报纸上读到，军方抱怨说，相当高比例的美国孩子身体状况不佳，甚至无法参军。
Should I dismiss that, or is it correct?
我应该驳回这一点，还是正确的？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
I think that we probably aren’t raising a generation that is in as good a physical condition as they could be.
我认为我们可能没有养育出身体状况尽可能好的一代人。
Doesn’t mean they can’t get in shape if necessity requires it.
并不意味着如果有必要的话他们就不能保持身材。
Ironically, that was a complaint of World War II, that the recruits they got were not in good physical condition.
讽刺的是，这是对二战的抱怨，他们招募的新兵身体状况不佳。
That’s not something that’s written in stone and can’t change.
这并不是一成不变的事情。
Do you think disciplinarian coaches are still possible in 2023 America?
你认为 2023 年的美国仍然可能出现纪律严明的教练吗？
Or the parents undercut them, the parents get too upset, everyone’s too much a wallflower?
或者父母削弱了他们的地位，父母太沮丧，每个人都太壁花了？
How do you see this?
您对此有何看法？
Parents very often don’t make a positive input into the sports for their kid.
父母常常不会为孩子的运动做出积极的投入。
Of course, I’m looking at high school coaches.
当然，我正在寻找高中教练。
I’ve not coached on the college level, so I don’t know the people.
我没有在大学里执教过，所以我不认识这些人。
I think they’re really underappreciated — the high school coaches that I knew, and I’ve known a lot of them over an almost 40-year period.
我认为他们确实被低估了——我认识的高中教练，在近 40 年的时间里我认识了他们中的很多人。
The two things that you look at that you want your kids to come out of your program with are character and integrity.
您希望您的孩子从您的项目中脱颖而出的两件事是品格和诚信。
You’re proud of the games you win, and you’re there to win, but you’re really teaching the kids lessons that you hope make them better people.
你为自己赢得的比赛感到自豪，并且你是为了胜利而存在的，但你实际上是在给孩子们上一堂课，希望他们能够成为更好的人。
I don’t see that that’s really changed.
我认为这并没有真正改变。
Maybe the manifestations of it — maybe some of the stuff that you couldn’t do now, you probably never should have done, but you can have discipline without putting your hands on somebody.
也许它的表现形式是——也许有些事情你现在不能做，你可能永远不应该做，但你可以在不把手放在别人身上的情况下遵守纪律。
When you walked across America, which was the place that surprised you the most?
当你走过美国时，哪个地方最让你惊讶？
No place really surprised me.
没有一个地方让我感到真正惊讶。
I got asked a lot, what was my favorite place, and I always told them it was the place I was at because —
很多人问我，我最喜欢的地方是什么，我总是告诉他们那就是我现在所在的地方，因为 -
I like to say the next place that’s coming.
我想说下一个即将到来的地方。
That’s a good way to look at it, too.
这也是看待它的好方法。
I wasn’t ever sure I would make the next place.
我不确定自己是否能进入下一个位置。
But if I hadn’t been doing journey runs for a long time, I think someone that comes into it and it’s the first time they do it, they’re shocked by how good people are.
但如果我很长一段时间没有参加旅程跑步，我想那些第一次参加旅程的人都会对人们的优秀感到震惊。
You have hundreds of human interactions, and they’re all good.
你有数百次人际互动，而且都很好。
You have numerous law enforcement checks because sometimes you’re doing things that don’t look quite right.
你会接受大量的执法检查，因为有时你会做一些看起来不太正确的事情。
Of course, when you’re crossing a mountain pass in the desert, and the nearest house is 50 miles away, the law enforcement is checking to see if you’re safe and sane — sane being a good question — but you got things under control.
当然，当你穿越沙漠中的山口时，最近的房子距离你 50 英里，执法部门会检查你是否安全、神志是否正常 ——“神志清醒是一个很好的问题”—— 但你已经控制住了事情。
I got stopped walking through a really ritzy part of town at 4:00 in the morning, looking like a homeless guy.
凌晨 4:00，我在镇上一个非常豪华的地方散步时被拦住了，看起来就像一个无家可归的人。
What city is this?
这是哪个城市？
I don’t remember what city it was; it was in Ohio.
我不记得那是哪个城市；那是在俄亥俄州。
The policeman — he would be derelict in his duty if he didn’t ask why I was there because I didn’t belong.
警察——如果他不问我为什么会在那里，那他就是玩忽职守，因为我不属于这里。
But after we talked a few minutes, he got out and took a selfie with me, and that says it.
但我们聊了几分钟后，他下车和我拍了一张自拍照，这就说明了一切。
Then I walked through what were considered really terrible parts of big cities and talked to people.
然后我走过了大城市中那些被认为非常可怕的地方，并与人们交谈。
A smile and a wave work the same in every neighborhood.
微笑和挥手在每个社区的作用都是一样的。
If you want to renew your faith in humanity and you want to renew your faith in the country, walk across it and put yourself dependent on the kindness of strangers.
如果你想更新你对人性的信心，你想更新你对这个国家的信心，那就走过它，让自己依赖陌生人的善意。
How did carrying bodies to the morgue influence your subsequent life?
将尸体运到太平间对您以后的生活有何影响？
How did you know I did that?
你怎么知道我这么做了？
Oh, I read it somewhere.
哦，我在哪里读到过。
One of my jobs.
我的工作之一。
I worked the 11:00 to 7:00 shift, the graveyard shift, ironically.
讽刺的是，我的工作时间是 11:00 到 7:00，也就是墓地轮班。
It didn’t really bother me to carry bodies to the morgue because the person was gone and just the body was left.
把尸体运到停尸房并没有真正困扰我，因为人已经走了，只剩下尸体了。
I don’t think it probably influenced me.
我认为这可能不会影响我。
I was already maybe lacking that part to start with.
我可能一开始就缺少那部分。
What did accounting teach you about ultramarathons and running?
关于超级马拉松和跑步，会计教给你什么？
Everything is numbers.
一切都是数字。
I really enjoyed accounting.
我真的很喜欢会计。
Your accountant knows more about you than anybody except maybe your doctor.
除了你的医生之外，你的会计师比任何人都更了解你。
You can look at the numbers and see what’s going on in places that you’ve never even physically been.
您可以查看这些数字，看看您从未去过的地方正在发生什么。
I wasn’t really a math person who likes the pure math, but I love numbers for the information — in sports, in business, in everything.
我并不是一个真正喜欢纯数学的数学家，但我喜欢用数字来获取信息 ——在体育、商业、一切方面。
Numbers tell you everything.
数字告诉你一切。
Where did you work as city treasurer?
您在哪里担任市财务主管？
Bell Buckle or somewhere else?
钟形扣还是其他地方？
No. City called Shelbyville.
不，这个城市叫谢尔比维尔。
That’s in Tennessee, right?
那是在田纳西州，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
It’s in Middle Tennessee.
它位于田纳西州中部。
Was that fun?
有趣吗？
I enjoyed it greatly.
我非常喜欢它。
I worked with a fellow named Ed Craig who was a really good city manager, and I felt like we did a really good job for the city.
我和一个名叫埃德·克雷格的人一起工作，他是一位非常优秀的城市经理，我觉得我们为这座城市做了非常好的工作。
Always looked at it that you’re hired by the elected officials, but as a government employee, you work for the taxpayers.
总是认为你是由民选官员雇用的，但作为政府雇员，你是为纳税人工作。
And I came away feeling that I really did good service for the people who paid the taxes there, so it was a satisfying stint.
离开时我感觉自己确实为纳税人提供了很好的服务，所以这是一段令人满意的时光。
How does East Tennessee differ from West Tennessee?
东田纳西州与西田纳西州有何不同？
How should I think about that?
我应该如何思考这个问题？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Since I live in Middle Tennessee, they’re both slightly inferior to Middle Tennessee.
因为我住在田纳西州中部，所以它们都比田纳西州中部稍差。
COWEN: What makes them worse?
COWEN：是什么让他们变得更糟？
They’re not Middle Tennessee.
他们不是田纳西州中部。
Yes, hard to see how they could be.
是的，很难看出他们会怎样。
I’m not there.
我不在那儿。
East Tennessee is hillier, and West Tennessee — it’s got a great deal of the Mississippi alluvial plain.
田纳西州东部丘陵较多，而田纳西州西部则有大片密西西比冲积平原。
It’s more rolling hills, but the people have a lot in common.
虽然山峦起伏，但这里的人们有很多共同点。
People everywhere have a lot in common.
世界各地的人们都有很多共同点。
What makes Bell Buckle a special town?
是什么让贝尔巴克成为一个特别的小镇？
That’s where you live now, right?
那就是你现在住的地方，对吗？
I live near Bell Buckle.
我住在贝尔扣附近。
It’s a small country place, and people know each other.
这是一个小乡村，人们互相认识。
I really live in an area I would call Short Creek.
我确实住在一个我称之为短溪的地区。
I went out before I came on here and did my morning three-hour walk.
我来之前就出去了，早上散步了三个小时。
I usually see only a couple of vehicles.
我通常只看到几辆车。
If I see somebody, I wave because they either know me or they’re going to stop and ask directions, because if you end up here, you are trying to get somewhere else.
如果我看到某人，我会挥手，因为他们要么认识我，要么会停下来问路，因为如果你到了这里，你就是在试图去其他地方。
It’s just pretty, and it’s green, and it’s not real densely populated, and I know all my neighbors for miles around because I walk every day.
它很漂亮，绿油油的，而且人口并不稠密，而且我认识方圆几英里内的所有邻居，因为我每天都走路。
It’s special in the way someplace else would be if I lived there and had been there a long time.
如果我住在那里并且在那里呆了很长时间，那么它会很特别。
Do you have good barbecue there?
你们那里有好吃的烧烤吗？
I kind of lean towards the Texas-style barbecue, but they have good barbecue in Tennessee.
我比较喜欢德克萨斯式的烧烤，但是田纳西州的烧烤也很好吃。
Do you have good Waffle Houses in central Tennessee?
田纳西州中部有好的华夫饼屋吗？
The Waffle House is the journey runner’s friend — a reliable meal and a 24-hour schedule.
Waffle House 是旅行者的朋友——可靠的膳食和 24 小时的时间表。
There’s something else about Waffle Houses people wouldn’t know.
关于华夫饼屋还有一些人们不知道的事情。
Walking across the country and looking derelict, I’ll stop at one just because they have an indoor toilet, and then I buy something.
走在全国各地，看起来被遗弃了，我会停下来，只是因为他们有一个室内厕所，然后我买一些东西。
On my travels, I think if I go to a business and use their bathroom, I should buy something.
在我的旅行中，我想如果我去一家企业并使用他们的浴室，我应该买一些东西。
I might stop and just buy a glass of chocolate milk.
我可能会停下来买一杯巧克力牛奶。
I’ve had the waitress think I was down on my luck and ask if I needed them to buy me a meal because that’s how people are.
我曾经让女服务员认为我运气不好，问我是否需要他们请我吃饭，因为人就是这样。
If you go out to eat at a Waffle House, do you order waffles or you order something else?
如果您出去在华夫饼屋吃饭，您会点华夫饼还是点其他东西？
It varies.
它有所不同。
I like their hashbrowns with pretty much everything in it.
我喜欢他们的薯饼，里面几乎有所有东西。
An omelet, but I’m not much of a waffle eater because the syrup is too sweet for me.
煎蛋卷，但我不太喜欢吃华夫饼，因为糖浆对我来说太甜了。
What are the books that have influenced you the most?
对你影响最大的书有哪些？
Now, I’ve got to try to think of the name.
现在，我必须想出这个名字。
I think the guy’s name is McPhee, and he wrote Annals of the Former World.
我想这个人的名字叫麦克菲，他写了《前世纪事》。
John McPhee.
约翰·麦克菲.
Yes, absolutely great books.
是的，绝对是很棒的书。
That’s a great book.
那是一本很棒的书。
I read mostly nonfiction and tend not to remember the authors and the names of the books.
我读的大部分是非小说类书籍，往往不记得作者和书名。
What topics?
什么话题？
Do you read about sports or running or what else?
您读过有关体育或跑步或其他内容的文章吗？
I like to read about sports, and I like to read about geology.
我喜欢阅读有关体育的书籍，也喜欢阅读有关地质的书籍。
History fascinates me.
历史让我着迷。
Science, paleontology, archaeology, just almost anything.
科学、古生物学、考古学，几乎任何东西。
Chemistry or pure math are not really in my realm.
化学或纯数学并不真正属于我的领域。
Who’s going to win the NBA title next year?
明年谁将赢得NBA总冠军？
The team that comes closest to running a real offense because that’s who always wins.
最接近真正进攻的球队，因为他们总是获胜。
Is that Denver?
那是丹佛吗？
Denver looks good now, but it’s like AAU — they’ll redraw teams between now and then.
丹佛现在看起来不错，但就像 AAU ——他们会从现在到那时重新抽签球队。
It’s funny, the NBA game — the rules are designed to make it as much as possible a game of athleticism: run and shoot.
有趣的是，NBA 比赛 ——规则的设计就是为了尽可能地使其成为一项运动能力的游戏：跑动和投篮。
I guess you’d call me a basketball purist.
我想你会称我为篮球纯粹主义者。
I like the passing, the offenses, the defenses, the teamwork, the skills.
我喜欢传球、进攻、防守、团队合作和技巧。
I really like the high school girls’ basketball — the most beautiful basketball you see played.
我真的很喜欢高中女子篮球——你见过的最漂亮的篮球。
It’s almost an art the way that they play it.
他们的演奏方式几乎是一门艺术。
But at every level when you look, the team that is best at those aspects of the game is still the one that wins.
但从各个层面来看，在比赛的这些方面表现最好的球队仍然是获胜的球队。
Do you have a favorite player?
你有最喜欢的球员吗？
Okay, Jokic I believe is his name.
好吧，我相信约基奇就是他的名字。
Correct.
正确的。
A tremendous passer, maybe the best passer ever.
一个出色的传球手，也许是有史以来最好的传球手。
Best since Larry Bird.
自拉里·伯德以来最好的。
When you were talking about the guy hitting 95 three-pointers in a row, there’s a video of Larry Bird called 50 assists.
当你谈论连续命中 95 个三分球的家伙时，有一段拉里·伯德的视频被称为 50 次助攻。
Those are infinitely more impressive because of what they tell about the player’s court awareness — knowing where everybody is.
这些更令人印象深刻，因为它们讲述了球员的球场意识 ——知道每个人都在哪里。
Last two questions.
最后两个问题。
First, over the last 10 years, you’ve become a lot more famous.
首先，在过去的十年里，你变得更加出名。
How is that changing what you do?
这如何改变你的工作？
How do you cope with it?
你如何应对？
I’m lucky it didn’t happen when I was young and would think that it really meant something.
我很幸运这件事在我年轻的时候没有发生，我会认为这确实意味着什么。
I’m still just an old hillbilly that lives in the woods, and some combination of circumstances have led to all this notice and attention, but it’s not like I really deserve it.
我仍然只是一个住在树林里的老乡巴佬，某些情况的结合导致了所有这些关注和关注，但这并不是我真正应得的。
There are exceptional people all around who have done a lot more than I have.
周围有很多杰出的人，他们所做的事情比我多得多。
If it gives you the ability to maybe do some things that are positive, or people will listen to you and you can give a positive message, then that’s a good thing.
如果它让你有能力做一些积极的事情，或者人们会倾听你的意见并且你可以发出积极的信息，那么这是一件好事。
But it’s just a combination of circumstances, unfortunately, not reflecting something I’ve done.
但不幸的是，这只是各种情况的结合，并没有反映我所做的事情。
Last question: what will you do next?
最后一个问题：接下来你会做什么？
Whatever I can get away with.
无论我能摆脱什么。
What will you try to get away with?
你会尝试逃避什么？
A new race or a memoir?
一场新的比赛还是一本回忆录？
A documentary?
纪录片？
I can’t get away with much because I’m old and slow, and I would be quickly caught, but I’m really putting a lot of focus on this thing called the Backyard Ultra.
我不能逃脱太多，因为我又老又慢，而且我很快就会被抓住，但我真的把很多注意力放在了这个叫做 Backyard Ultra 的东西上。
It’s just a different running sport.
这只是一项不同的跑步运动。
I think it emphasizes the aspects of competition that are more positive.
我认为它强调了竞争中更积极的方面。
Say a little more about that.
对此多说一点。
You run a 4.16667-mile loop, and you do it once an hour.
您跑了 4.16667 英里的环路，每小时跑一次。
You have a start every hour, and you have to be there in the starting corral and start every hour and finish in time to be in the corral next hour.
你每小时都有一个出发点，你必须在出发栏位中，每小时出发并及时完成，以便下一个小时到达栏位。
It just goes on until there’s only one person left.
一直持续到只剩下一个人为止。
It’s not that hard to run four miles in an hour, but to do it on and on and on, and you only have this short time in between.
一小时跑四英里并不难，但要不断地跑，而且中间只有这么短的时间。
We did the first one in 2012, and now there’s over 400 of them in 70-something countries.
我们在 2012 年做了第一个项目，现在已经在 70 多个国家/地区开展了 400 多个项目。
The winner is the last person left, and he can only go one lap after everybody else is gone.
获胜者是最后剩下的人，他只能在其他人都走完之后再跑一圈。
Once you finish a lap by yourself, the race is over, so people who want to achieve big performances have to have other good runners out there with them.
一旦你自己跑完一圈，比赛就结束了，所以想要取得好成绩的人必须有其他优秀的跑步者和他们一起。
There’s one winner; everybody else is a DNF because the distance of the race is defined by how far the winner goes, so everyone else didn’t finish.
有一个赢家；其他人都是DNF，因为比赛的距离是由获胜者走多远决定的，所以其他人都没有完成。
But people of all levels can go the farthest they’ve ever gone.
但各个层次的人都可以走得最远。
It lends itself to that.
它适合于此。
It’s really more about the individual achievement.
这实际上更多的是关于个人成就。
Then the last person who DNFs is called the assist because he’s really the one who decided how far the winner went.
那么最后一个DNF的人就被称为助攻，因为他才是真正决定胜利者能走多远的人。
Without a good assist, you can’t have a big performance.
没有好的助攻，就不可能有出色的表现。
We’re having the World Championships in October here on my farm.
十月份我们将在我的农场举办世界锦标赛。
We’ve got runners from 30-some countries and a lot of really exceptional athletes.
我们有来自 30 多个国家的跑步者和许多非常出色的运动员。
I got to set it up where you remove the politics from sports.
我必须将其设置为将政治从体育中剔除。
Everyone is there because they qualified.
每个人都在那里，因为他们有资格。
I never liked beauty contests in sports, when you’re picking all-stars or whatever.
我从来不喜欢体育界的选美比赛，当你挑选全明星或其他什么的时候。
You like to get it down to be purely objective and no subjectivity in it at all.
你喜欢把它归结为纯粹客观的，完全没有主观性。
I think it’s a version of running that has a place for people at all levels to succeed and to accomplish something.
我认为这是跑步的一种形式，可以让各个级别的人取得成功并完成一些事情。
It just seems like a worthwhile place to apply my time.
这似乎是一个值得我花时间的地方。
That sounds great.
听起来很棒。
Lazarus Lake, thank you very much.
拉撒路湖，非常感谢你。
I appreciate you talking to me.
我很感激你跟我说话。
Hopefully.
希望如此。
I’ve seen the impressive list of guests that you’ve had, and I thought, “Oh, I’m being lined up as a change of pace.” COWEN: I really look forward to this one coming out.
我看到了你们邀请的令人印象深刻的客人名单，我想，“哦，我排队是为了改变节奏。” COWEN：我真的很期待这一部作品的问世。
You put many of them to shame.
你让他们中的许多人感到羞愧。
Well, I appreciate that.
嗯，我很欣赏这一点。
I don’t believe it, but it’s still nice to hear.
我不相信，但听到还是很高兴。