Kwame Anthony Appiah on Pictures of the World (Ep. 72)
I’m very honored to be here today with Kwame Anthony Appiah.
我很荣幸今天能和夸梅·安东尼·阿皮亚一起来到这里。
Let’s just jump right in.
让我们直接开始吧。
I have some questions about Ghana.
我有一些关于加纳的问题。
Why are there so few atheists in Ghana?
为什么加纳无神论者这么少？
Well, maybe for the same reason that there were very few atheists in much of the world until relatively recently.
好吧，也许出于同样的原因，直到最近，世界大部分地区都很少有无神论者。
Atheism is a relatively modern phenomenon, at least the form of atheism that we see around us.
无神论是一种相对现代的现象，至少是我们周围看到的无神论形式。
There are lots of Christians in Ghana.
加纳有很多基督徒。
There are lots of Muslims in Ghana.
加纳有很多穆斯林。
And there are lots of believers in traditional religions, which are sort of polytheistic, though they tend to have a high god.
还有很多传统宗教的信徒，这些宗教是多神教的，尽管他们往往有一个崇高的神。
There’s one big god, and there’s an earth goddess, and then a bunch of other gods.
有一个大神，还有一个大地女神，然后还有一堆其他的神。
Probably one reason why people haven’t given it up is because nobody argues against it.
人们没有放弃它的原因之一可能是因为没有人反对它。
Again, that’s a relatively modern thing, to have people in public arguing against theism.
再说一遍，让人们在公开场合反对有神论，这是一件相对现代的事情。
Obviously, there were atheists in the ancient world, but since the rise of the Abrahamic religions, there haven’t been a lot of atheists — except until recently — anywhere.
显然，古代世界有无神论者，但自从亚伯拉罕宗教兴起以来，除了最近之外，任何地方都没有很多无神论者。
Do you think West Africa is proving to be an exception to the secularization thesis?
您认为西非被证明是世俗化论的一个例外吗？
Which is coming to many parts of the world, many parts of the Middle East.
这将来到世界许多地方，中东的许多地方。
They’re nominally religious.
他们名义上是有宗教信仰的。
There’s not a lot of belief.
没有太多的信仰。
But West Africa seems different.
但西非似乎有所不同。
Nigeria also.
尼日利亚也。
Yes.
是的。
Huge amounts of very successful, growing religious denominations, especially — as in many places in the world — the Wahhabi version of Islam and the kind of Pentecostal version of Christianity: born-again Christians, charismatic churches, lots of singing and dancing, people being taken with the Spirit, and that kind of thing.
大量非常成功、不断发展的宗教教派，特别是——就像在世界上许多地方一样——瓦哈比派的伊斯兰教和五旬节派的基督教：重生的基督徒、魅力教堂、大量的歌舞、人们被圣灵吸引，等等。
It’s certainly not going in the direction of secularization as far as I can see, in the sense of moving away from church life or mosque life and moving away from belief.
在我看来，它当然不会朝着世俗化的方向发展，即远离教堂生活或清真寺生活并远离信仰。
That’s not happening.
但这并没有发生。
Marriage across different religions seems especially common in West Africa.
不同宗教之间的婚姻在西非似乎尤其普遍。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
And have those background cultural factors in some way shaped your own views?
这些背景文化因素是否在某种程度上影响了您自己的观点？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I think yes.
我想是的。
My uncle Aviv, who was a Sunni Muslim, was married to my aunt Grace, who’s a Methodist.
我的叔叔阿维夫是逊尼派穆斯林，他嫁给了我的姨妈格蕾丝，她是卫理公会教徒。
My parents were different Christian denominations.
我的父母属于不同的基督教教派。
That’s not terribly exciting, but they didn’t even go to the same church, actually.
这并不是很令人兴奋，但实际上他们甚至没有去同一座教堂。
They went to different churches.
他们去了不同的教堂。
Relatively common in Ghana, both for Christian couples to go to different churches, and for people to marry people who are not Christians, and Muslims to marry people who are not Christians, and so on.
在加纳比较常见，既有基督徒夫妇去不同的教堂，也有人与非基督徒结婚，还有穆斯林与非基督徒结婚等等。
I think it shows something about the character of the belief, which is that it’s, in an odd way — though this has somewhat been changed by the arrival of American Christian televangelism and Wahhabism — but fundamentally, the key thing is belief in, and kind of relationship with, the spiritual world.
我认为它显示了信仰的一些特征，即它以一种奇怪的方式——尽管美国基督教电视布道和瓦哈比主义的到来在某种程度上改变了这一点——但从根本上来说，关键是对精神世界的信仰以及与精神世界的关系。
As long as you agree about that, the rest is details.
只要你同意这一点，剩下的就是细节。
Also, people have the view, which I think is a reasonable view if you’re a theist, which is, “Who knows exactly what the truth is about these things?
另外，人们有这样的观点，我认为如果你是有神论者，这是一个合理的观点，即“谁知道这些事情的真相到底是什么？
They’re very complicated.” The idea that you get in early Christianity that it’s incredibly important to insist on a long, long list of beliefs, some of which are philosophical and impossible to understand — transubstantiation, consubstantiation, weird stuff like that — that’s not very common.
它们非常复杂。”在早期的基督教中，你会得到这样的想法：坚持一长串的信仰是非常重要的，其中一些是哲学性的、无法理解的——变体论、复体论、诸如此类的奇怪的东西——这并不常见。
People are very relaxed.
人们非常放松。
And the insistence that things are very complicated — that sounds like you, right?
坚持认为事情非常复杂——这听起来像你，对吧？
In other contexts.
在其他情况下。
Yes.
是的。
I think that’s certainly my view.
我想这确实是我的观点。
And this idea that a kind of fallibilism, the thought that, “Well, I might be right, I might be wrong” — that’s actually quite a Ghanaian attitude.
这种错误主义的想法，即“嗯，我可能是对的，我可能是错的”——这实际上是加纳人的态度。
People, in a way, understand how hard it is to get to know things, especially about this sort of thing, about invisible spirits and faraway gods.
在某种程度上，人们明白了解事物是多么困难，尤其是这种关于看不见的灵魂和遥远的神明的事情。
So they are not likely to be super confident about anything outside their own experience.
因此，他们不太可能对自己经验之外的任何事情都非常有信心。
They may be confident that they themselves have had conversations with Jesus or something like that, but the idea that the rest of it is going to be easy to figure out, I think, is not a very widespread idea.
他们可能相信自己已经与耶稣进行过对话或类似的事情，但我认为其余部分很容易弄清楚的想法并不是一个非常普遍的想法。
And to some extent, it pervades people’s life, so in other areas of belief, people are kind of willing to think, “Well, I’ll go to the doctor if I get sick, but if he doesn’t do anything, I’ll go to the traditional healer.”
在某种程度上，它渗透到了人们的生活中，所以在其他信仰领域，人们愿意这样想：“好吧，如果我生病了，我会去看医生，但如果他什么都不做，我就会去找传统治疗师。”
Like a portfolio approach.
就像投资组合方法一样。
It’s a portfolio approach.
这是一种投资组合方法。
To many things.
对很多事情。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
And do you have that?
你有吗？
Officially, I do because my official position, I suppose, is that, because all of our best pictures of the world are slightly wrong, we can’t rule out a picture on the grounds that it’s wrong, inconsistent with some other picture that we have, because it may be that the part of the other picture that it’s inconsistent with is one of the wrong bits.
正式地说，我这样做是因为我想，我的官方立场是，因为我们所有最好的世界照片都略有错误，所以我们不能因为某张照片是错误的、与我们现有的其他照片不一致而排除它，因为另一张照片中与它不一致的部分可能是错误的部分之一。
So, we’d better work with as many pictures as we can, or as we can manage — that’s the main limitation, just our capacity to hold on to too many pictures — because none of our pictures is going to be perfectly right.
因此，我们最好尽可能多地处理图片，或者在我们能够管理的情况下——这是主要的限制，只是我们保存太多图片的能力——因为我们的图片都不可能是完全正确的。
Of all of your pictures of the world, which one do you think is least wrong?
在你所有的世界照片中，你认为哪一张是最不错误的？
I think my everyday, commonsense, middle-sized-object view of the world is the one that’s least likely to be wrong.
我认为我对世界的日常、常识、中等大小的物体的看法是最不可能出错的。
It’s least likely to be wrong that there are tables and chairs, the very sort of thing that, in a way, modern philosophy begins by making us wonder whether we know about.
桌子和椅子的存在是最不可能出错的，在某种程度上，现代哲学正是从让我们怀疑我们是否了解这些东西开始的。
Descartes makes us wonder, do we know about these middle-sized everyday dry goods, as one philosopher once called them?
笛卡尔让我们想知道，我们是否了解这些中等大小的日常干货（正如一位哲学家曾经所说的那样）？
That, I think, it’s very unlikely that I’m wrong about, and fortunately —
我认为我不太可能错，幸运的是——
Which is most likely to be wrong?
哪个最有可能是错误的？
Even if you think it’s true, right?
即使你认为这是真的，对吧？
There’s something most likely to be wrong?
有什么最有可能出错的地方吗？
Probably some of my views about what the best science is.
可能是我对什么是最好的科学的一些看法。
What would those views be?
这些观点会是什么？
I believe in the standard deliverances of modern genomics, but I suspect that we’re going to learn lots and lots of stuff in there that we now believe is not quite right.
我相信现代基因组学的标准交付，但我怀疑我们将在那里学到很多很多我们现在认为不太正确的东西。
But not just incomplete, but wrong.
但不仅不完整，而且是错误的。
What core views or models of yours are most likely to be wrong?
您的哪些核心观点或模型最有可能是错误的？
My inclination is to believe about the basic physical structure of the world that some mixture of the quantum theory and the theory of relativity can be made to work.
我倾向于相信世界的基本物理结构可以使量子理论和相对论的某种混合发挥作用。
But we’ve been trying to do that for a very long time — basically since they were invented, those two theories — and we haven’t had a huge amount of success.
但我们已经尝试这样做很长时间了——基本上自从这两种理论被发明以来——但我们并没有取得巨大的成功。
What people seem to think, currently, is the most plausible way of reconciling them strikes me as (a) incredibly difficult to understand — string theory, and (b) something that a reasonable person might doubt.
目前，人们所认为的最合理的调和方式让我印象深刻，因为（a）极其难以理解——弦理论，以及（b）一个理性的人可能会怀疑的东西。
But if you ask me what I think the best current physical theory is, I’m going to say string theory, but with a sort of confidence that’s probably below half.
但如果你问我，我认为当前最好的物理理论是什么，我会说弦理论，但我的信心可能低于一半。
COWEN: Take Pan-Africanism.
考恩：以泛非主义为例。
Do you think, in the broader course of history, this will go down as merely a 20th-century idea?
您认为，在更广阔的历史进程中，这会仅仅作为 20 世纪的想法而被人们所铭记吗？
Or is Pan-Africanism alive and well today?
或者说，泛非主义今天还活着吗？
Pan-Africanism involves two different big strands.
泛非主义涉及两个不同的大方向。
One is the diasporic strand.
一是离散链。
The word Pan-Africanism and the Pan-African Congresses were invented in the diaspora by people like Sylvester Williams in Jamaica and W.
泛非主义和泛非大会这个词是由牙买加的西尔维斯特·威廉姆斯和西尔维斯特·威廉姆斯等人在侨民中发明的。
E.
E.
B.
B.
Du Bois from the United States and Padmore.
来自美国的杜波依斯和帕德莫尔。
That idea of a diasporic African identity seems pretty lively in the world today, though it doesn’t produce much actual politics or policy, but the sense of solidarity of people of African descent, of the African diaspora seems pretty strong to me.
这种散居非洲人身份的想法在当今世界似乎相当活跃，尽管它没有产生太多实际的政治或政策，但对我来说，非洲人后裔、非洲侨民的团结感似乎相当强烈。
But strongest outside of Africa in a way, right?
但在某种程度上，非洲以外地区最强，对吧？
Yes, where it began.
是的，从哪里开始。
In Africa, I think, on the one hand, that most contemporary sub-Saharan Africans do have a sense of themselves as belonging to a kind of Black African world.
在非洲，我认为，一方面，大多数当代撒哈拉以南非洲人确实有一种属于非洲黑人世界的感觉。
But if you ask them to do something practical about it, like take down borders or do more political integration, I don’t know that that is going to go anywhere anytime soon, which I regret because I think, for lots of reasons, it would be .
但如果你要求他们做一些实际的事情，比如取消边界或进行更多的政治一体化，我不知道这会很快发生什么，我对此感到遗憾，因为我认为，出于很多原因，这会是……。
.
。
.
。
My sister and her husband live in Lagos.
我的姐姐和她的丈夫住在拉各斯。
If they want to go to Accra by road, they have to cross the border between Nigeria and Benin, the border between Benin and Togo, the border between Togo and Ghana.
如果他们想通过公路前往阿克拉，就必须穿过尼日利亚和贝宁边境、贝宁和多哥边境、多哥和加纳边境。
And at each of those borders, they probably have to interact with people who are going to try and extract an illegal tax on them.
在每一个边境，他们可能都必须与试图向他们征收非法税款的人进行互动。
Easier to fly to London, right?
飞往伦敦更容易，对吗？
Much easier to fly to London and back to Accra.
飞往伦敦和返回阿克拉要容易得多。
That’s crazy.
这太疯狂了。
And we’ve had these weird things.
我们也遇到过这些奇怪的事情。
On the one hand, there’s probably a million Ghanaians in Nigeria, living Ghanaian citizens.
一方面，尼日利亚可能有一百万加纳人，他们是加纳公民。
On the other hand, we’ve had massive expulsions from each country — not recently, but in the past.
另一方面，每个国家都曾发生过大规模驱逐事件——不是最近，而是过去。
Nearly a million Nigerians expelled by Dr. Busia in the early ’70s, and then a Nigerian expulsion later.
上世纪 70 年代初，布西亚博士驱逐了近百万尼日利亚人，后来又驱逐了尼日利亚人。
And these weren’t hugely unpopular, so you can get people to be quite nationalistic within Africa, even though there’s a broad sense that we’re all part of one thing.
这些并不是非常不受欢迎，所以你可以让非洲的人们变得非常民族主义，尽管人们普遍认为我们都是一件事的一部分。
That doesn’t really include the Maghreb and North Africa and the Arab-speaking parts of Africa in quite the same way, and that’s because of the legacy of racial pictures.
这实际上并没有以完全相同的方式包括马格里布和北非以及非洲的阿拉伯语地区，这是因为种族图片的遗产。
Maybe you could explain Ghanaian history to me in a nutshell.
也许你可以简单地向我解释一下加纳的历史。
If I read about Ghana today, it’s commonly cited, there’s a relatively high degree of national unity or identity.
如果我今天读到有关加纳的信息，人们通常都会提到，那里有相对较高程度的民族团结或认同。
Politics is fairly coherent.
政治是相当一致的。
But if I go back and look at history, not that long ago, there are coups in 1966, 1972, 1981.
但如果我回顾历史，不久前，1966年、1972年、1981年都发生过政变。
Instability, ethnic tensions in 1994.
1994 年，局势不稳定，种族关系紧张。
Why does Ghana now appear to be such a stable nation-state, and not too long ago, such an unstable nation-state?
为什么加纳现在看起来是一个如此稳定的民族国家，而不久前却是一个如此不稳定的民族国家？
Well, I think the first question is the really puzzling one.
嗯，我认为第一个问题确实令人费解。
The earlier instability’s not too surprising.
早期的不稳定并不令人意外。
After all, Ghana was created in 1957, and I don’t just mean that it was decolonized in 1957.
毕竟，加纳是 1957 年建国的，我的意思不仅仅是它在 1957 年实现了非殖民化。
The country of Ghana is the union of the former British Togoland with the Gold Coast in 1957 as a result of a plebiscite in Togo in the mid-’50s.
加纳国家是前英属多哥兰与黄金海岸于 1957 年合并而成的国家，是多哥 50 年代中期公民投票的结果。
So it’s younger than I am, the country.
所以它比我年轻，国家。
That it has a strong sense of national anything — that’s the big surprise, I think, not the other way around.
它具有强烈的民族意识——我认为这是一个很大的惊喜，而不是相反。
There are various theories about this.
关于这一点有多种理论。
I think one of the most interesting is that, because most of what’s now in Ghana, at least west of the Volta — lake, once river — was at one point or other within the ambit of the Ashanti Empire, which is something that goes back to the 18th century, and which radiated trade out from Kumasi in central southern Ghana for hundreds of years.
我认为最有趣的一点是，因为现在加纳的大部分地区，至少是沃尔特河以西的地方——湖，曾经的河流——在某种程度上都在阿散蒂帝国的范围内，这个帝国的历史可以追溯到18世纪，数百年来一直将贸易从加纳中南部的库马西辐射出去。
It’s sort of integrated economically.
这在某种程度上是经济上的整合。
It’s been integrated economically for quite a long time, and people know each other.
长期以来，两国经济一体化，人民相互了解。
They may speak different languages.
他们可能会说不同的语言。
There are 80 languages spoken in Ghana, but people have been speaking Twi, the Ashanti language, which has dialects on the coast, as well, and in between — people have had it as a second language since long before the British took over, which you have to remember happened in the 20th century.
加纳有 80 种语言，但人们一直在讲特威语，即阿散蒂语，这种语言在海岸和其他地区也有方言——早在英国人接管之前，人们就已经将它作为第二语言了，你必须记住，这发生在 20 世纪。
The final British-Ashanti war, Anglo-Ashanti War, was in the first decade of the 20th century.
最后的英国-阿散蒂战争，即盎格鲁-阿散蒂战争，发生在20世纪的第一个十年。
My father’s father was born before British rule in Ashanti and died after British rule in Ashanti.
我父亲的父亲出生在英国统治阿散蒂之前，在英国统治阿散蒂之后去世。
It lasted less than his lifetime so that whatever shapes that region, I don’t think it can be those 90-odd years of that, because it seems deeper than that.
它持续的时间比他一生的时间还短，所以无论那个地区的形状如何，我认为都不可能是那九十多年，因为它似乎比那更深刻。
I think the political stability can be credited to significant achievement on the part of a man, namely President Rawlings, Jerry John Rawlings, who is not someone I hugely admire in every way, but he came in in one of those coups.
我认为政治稳定可以归功于一个人的重大成就，即罗林斯总统杰里·约翰·罗林斯，他不是我在各方面都非常钦佩的人，但他是在其中一场政变中上台的。
He was a military ruler for a while.
他曾担任过一段时间的军事统治者。
He civilianized the country, and he actually — probably with the assistance of Kofi Annan, who was then UN peacekeeping head and used Ghanaian troops a lot — he re-professionalized the Ghanaian military to think of itself as a military in service of a civilian power, not as people who might come in from time to time to correct political mistakes.
他使这个国家平民化，实际上——可能是在时任联合国维和部队负责人科菲·安南的帮助下，他经常使用加纳军队——他使加纳军队重新职业化，将自己视为一支为平民权力服务的军队，而不是时不时介入纠正政治错误的人。
Ironically, at the end of his two terms, when he lost, he appealed to the army, and they said, “No, you taught us that we don’t do that, so you lost.
具有讽刺意味的是，在他的两个任期结束时，当他失败时，他向军队呼吁，他们说：“不，你告诉我们我们不这样做，所以你输了。
The other guy should come in.”
另一个人应该进来。”
We’ve now had a whole set of cycles of the two main parties oscillating back and forth, winning and losing.
现在，我们已经有了一整套两个主要政党来回摇摆、输赢的周期。
I think now, whereas there was celebration in the streets in coups in the past, now people would be really angry if the military intervened, and I don’t know that they could get away with it.
我想现在，虽然过去政变时街上有庆祝活动，但现在如果军队介入，人们会非常愤怒，我不知道他们是否能逃脱惩罚。
There would be bloodshed and horrible stuff, and they know that.
将会发生流血和可怕的事情，他们知道这一点。
I think that is the result of political learning, watching what happens when you do things with coups, and discovering that it doesn’t get much better if you do it that way, and deciding to go with the patience that’s required for democracy.
我认为这是政治学习的结果，观察当你用政变做事时会发生什么，发现如果这样做并不会变得更好，并决定以民主所需的耐心去做。
In the data, British-background colonies seem to do better than French, Spanish, or Portuguese.
从数据来看，英国背景的殖民地似乎比法国、西班牙或葡萄牙的殖民地做得更好。
Do you have a sense of why that might be?
你知道为什么会这样吗？
It’s not something I’ve thought about.
这不是我考虑过的事情。
Say, in the Caribbean, Barbados has been relatively prosperous.
比如说，在加勒比地区，巴巴多斯一直比较繁荣。
Jamaica.
牙买加。
People have looked at this — Singapore and many other examples.
人们已经研究过这一点——新加坡和许多其他例子。
Extrapolating out from the place I know best, which is Ghana, one thing that happened in the British colonies was that a middle class was created that was not wholly dependent upon the state, whereas the kind of middle class in the francophone countries of West Africa was, mostly, you got middle-class status by being a civil servant or a lawyer or something, by having some kind of relationship with the state.
从我最了解的地方加纳推断，在英国殖民地发生的一件事是，创建了一个不完全依赖于国家的中产阶级，而西非法语国家的中产阶级大多是通过成为公务员或律师或其他什么，通过与国家建立某种关系而获得中产阶级地位。
That goes with the fact that in the British colonies, education, tertiary education starts earlier.
这与英国殖民地的教育、高等教育起步较早有关。
So already there was a university college in the Gold Coast before independence, whereas there wasn’t in Senegal, which is the most sophisticated of the West African French states.
因此，在独立之前，黄金海岸就已经有一所大学学院，而塞内加尔却没有，而塞内加尔是西非法属国家中最先进的国家。
So, I think that’s part of it.
所以，我认为这是其中的一部分。
There were people who made money in things like farming and forestry, maybe as mediators in the gold trade —
有些人在农业和林业等领域赚钱，也许是黄金贸易的调解人——
So, the sort of schema story, the cartoon story, is the British do indirect rule, the French do direct rule.
所以，那种图式故事，卡通故事，是英国人做间接规则，法国人做直接规则。
The British therefore leave in place the institutions of chieftaincy if they exist or create them if they don’t.
因此，如果酋长制度存在，英国人就会保留它；如果不存在，英国人就创建它们。
The French sort of wipe all that away and create their own structures.
法国人把所有这些都抹掉并创建了自己的结构。
Maybe the continuity of political institutions through the colonial period — so that the king of Ashanti is still in place in the middle of the Republic of Ghana — maybe that’s another thing that helps to explain the existence of a stability that’s independent of the formal state because he’s recognized by the state.
也许整个殖民时期政治制度的连续性——因此阿散蒂国王仍然在加纳共和国中部——也许这是另一个有助于解释独立于正式国家的稳定存在的原因，因为他得到了国家的承认。
He’s a member of the House of Chiefs, but his authority and his legitimacy have nothing to do with the Republic of Ghana.
他是酋长院的成员，但他的权威和合法性与加纳共和国无关。
It’s older and deeper than that.
它比那更古老、更深刻。
So, that may be another thing.
所以，这可能是另一回事。
That doesn’t really apply to Singapore, of course.
当然，这并不真正适用于新加坡。
That is to say, the British didn’t use indirect rule in Singapore, so I don’t know what the story is there.
也就是说，英国人在新加坡并没有使用间接统治，所以我不知道那里有什么故事。
I suspect the story in Singapore is three words: Lee Kuan Yew.
我怀疑新加坡的故事就是三个字：李光耀。
And a very good location at the right time.
并且在正确的时间找到了一个非常好的位置。
Well, good location, wonderful economic location in terms of being a major port city in a massively growing area of the world, with population speaking the two great trading languages of the world, Chinese and English, and so on.
嗯，地理位置优越，经济地理位置优越，是世界上一个大规模增长地区的主要港口城市，人口说世界上两种主要的贸易语言，中文和英语，等等。
Singapore’s been lucky in many ways, but I think it was lucky in its leadership.
新加坡在很多方面都很幸运，但我认为它的领导力是幸运的。
I’m not a big fan of the authoritarian side of Lee Kuan Yew, but they owe him a lot.
我不太喜欢李光耀的独裁一面，但他们欠他很多。
On cosmopolitanism
论世界主义
If cosmopolitanism is so wonderful, why are we today seeing a resurgence of nationalism?
如果世界主义如此美妙，为什么我们今天会看到民族主义的复兴？
What’s unsatisfying about cosmopolitanism?
世界主义有什么不令人满意的地方？
I want to say first that, for me, it’s really important to insist that you can be a cosmopolitan patriot.
我首先想说的是，对我来说，坚持自己可以成为一名世界性的爱国者非常重要。
You can be rooted in a place, care about it in a special way, and still be a citizen of the world, and think that you have obligations and concerns and interests that transcend your national identity.
你可以扎根于一个地方，以特殊的方式关心它，但仍然是世界公民，并认为你有超越你的民族身份的义务、关切和利益。
I want to say first that, for me, it’s really important to insist that you can be a cosmopolitan patriot.
我首先想说的是，对我来说，坚持自己可以成为一名世界性的爱国者非常重要。
You can be rooted in a place, care about it in a special way, and still be a citizen of the world, and think that you have obligations and concerns and interests that transcend your national identity.
你可以扎根于一个地方，以特殊的方式关心它，但仍然是世界公民，并认为你有超越你的民族身份的义务、关切和利益。
I’m not the kind of cosmopolitan who’s opposed to national identity, and that’s an important part of the answer because the kind of cosmopolitan who does want to drag people away from their roots has, I think, got no chance of persuading most people.
我不是那种反对民族认同的世界主义者，这是答案的一个重要部分，因为我认为，那种确实想让人们远离自己的根源的世界主义者没有机会说服大多数人。
They’re not going to persuade me, and I’m officially a cosmopolitan, so why would I expect them to persuade people who have less reason to be cosmopolitan than I do?
他们不会说服我，而且我正式是一个国际主义者，那么我为什么要指望他们说服那些比我更没有理由成为国际主义者的人呢？
And I say I have reason to be cosmopolitan because my parents are from two different continents.
我说我有理由变得国际化，因为我的父母来自两个不同的大陆。
The three youngest members of my family are my half-Russian, my half-Namibian, and my half-Nigerian great nephews and nieces.
我家里三个最小的成员是我有一半俄罗斯血统、一半纳米比亚血统和一半尼日利亚血统的曾侄子和侄女。
And their grandparents include a Norwegian, a Ghanaian, and an Englishwoman, as well as Russians and Namibians.
他们的祖父母包括一名挪威人、一名加纳人、一名英国人，以及俄罗斯人和纳米比亚人。
So of course, in my family life, I’m going to be interested in everywhere in the world and feel that I have connections with it.
当然，在我的家庭生活中，我会对世界上的每个地方感兴趣，并觉得我与它有联系。
But I think if you make cosmopolitanism about rejecting the local, that won’t work.
但我认为，如果你以世界主义来拒绝本土化，那是行不通的。
Most of us like to be connected with a place or a couple of places and to feel rooted in them.
我们大多数人都喜欢与一个或几个地方有联系，并感觉扎根于其中。
The idea that cosmopolitans are rootless is just a mistake — or have to be.
认为世界主义者没有根基的想法只是一个错误——或者必须是一个错误。
Why has so much of the world turned away from things connected with other places — migration and globalization as an economic phenomenon — which they see as posing threats to their economic stability?
为什么世界上如此多的人回避与其他地方相关的事物——移民和全球化作为一种经济现象——他们认为这些事物对其经济稳定构成了威胁？
Partly, I think, because they’ve been encouraged to think so, even though I think it’s just objectively false that globalization has been terrifically bad for many of the people who are most nationalist at the moment.
我认为，部分原因是他们被鼓励这么想，尽管我认为全球化对于目前许多最民族主义的人来说非常糟糕，这在客观上是错误的。
And part of it is that the elites that led globalization, or that led integration in Europe, paid almost no attention to the views .
部分原因是领导全球化或领导欧洲一体化的精英们几乎不关注这些观点。
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。
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They weren’t listening.
他们没有在听。
They thought it was obvious what they were doing was good, so they paid absolutely no attention to the tensions and difficulties that were produced.
他们认为自己所做的事情显然是好的，所以他们完全不关心由此产生的紧张和困难。
But does listening work?
但倾听有用吗？
Doesn’t a kind of appeasement often make things worse?
一种绥靖政策不是常常会让事情变得更糟吗？
Well, I don’t think the right thing to do is appeasement.
嗯，我认为绥靖政策不是正确的做法。
The right thing to do was to solve the problems that were being blamed on globalization or Europe by the people who were upset.
正确的做法是解决那些心烦意乱的人们指责全球化或欧洲的问题。
Which means more should have been done in terms of government policy in the north of England to improve employment — things like that.
这意味着英格兰北部的政府政策应该采取更多措施来改善就业等。
I think that would have been —
我认为那会是——
But even if that’s a good idea, what if it’s just the case that, say, the rise of China lowers the global status of the West?
但即使这是一个好主意，如果只是中国的崛起降低了西方的全球地位呢？
It means stagnant middle-class wages in many places, and those things are just facts.
这意味着许多地方的中产阶级工资停滞不前，而这些都是事实。
We could have done a number of choices differently, but at the end of the day, people will be upset about that and turn back to nationalism.
我们本可以做出一些不同的选择，但最终，人们会对此感到不安并回归民族主义。
I agree that the relative positions of the North Atlantic societies is obviously in decline.
我同意北大西洋社会的相对地位明显在下降。
England in particular, yeah.
尤其是英格兰，是的。
Relatively.
相对地。
But these are still very, very rich societies.
但这些社会仍然非常非常富裕。
So part of the question is whether what goods there are are being fairly shared among the people in these societies, and if they don’t think they are — which I think is a reasonable judgment — then they will worry more about stagnation of income than they do if they think that it’s —
因此，问题的一部分是，这些社会中的人们是否公平地分享了哪些商品，如果他们认为没有公平分享——我认为这是一个合理的判断——那么他们会比他们认为的情况更担心收入停滞——
Look, incomes were no doubt stagnant during the Second World War in England, but people felt, “Hey, we’re engaged in this common enterprise together, so of course that’s okay.
看，第二次世界大战期间英国的收入无疑停滞不前，但人们觉得，“嘿，我们一起从事这项共同的事业，所以当然没关系。
And also, we’re sharing the burdens fairly, where nobody’s getting away with anything.” And in fact, there was deep resentment of people who profiteered in wartime.
而且，我们公平地分担负担，没有人能逃脱任何惩罚。”事实上，人们对那些在战时牟取暴利的人怀有深深的怨恨。
So, I think that it’s possible to run a society, even a society that’s coasting, that doesn’t see growth in the incomes of middle- and working-class people.
因此，我认为，管理一个中产阶级和工薪阶层收入没有增长的社会是可能的，即使是一个正在滑行的社会。
I think it’s possible to manage that in a way that feels fair, that makes the burdens feel fairly shared.
我认为可以以一种感觉公平的方式来管理这一点，让负担感觉公平地分担。
And if you do that, there’s the possibility of getting people to see that closing off to the world is only going to make things worse.
如果你这样做，就有可能让人们认识到与世界隔绝只会让事情变得更糟。
That’s the big thing we have to persuade people of.
这是我们必须说服人们的一件大事。
Brexit isn’t making things better for middle-class incomes in Britain.
英国脱欧并没有改善英国中产阶级的收入。
Is cosmopolitanism not only compatible with nationalism, but in a way quite parasitic upon it?
世界主义不仅与民族主义兼容，而且在某种程度上还寄生于民族主义之上吗？
And in a sense, the parasite is being ejected a bit?
从某种意义上说，寄生虫被驱逐了一点？
Think back to your boyhood in Kumasi.
回想一下您在库马西的童年时光。
You have all these different groups, and you’re trading with them.
你拥有所有这些不同的群体，并且你正在与他们进行交易。
You see them every day, and that works great, but there’s some central coherence to Ghana underlying that.
你每天都能看到他们，这效果很好，但在这背后有一些与加纳的核心一致性。
You go to Lebanon today — that central coherence seems to have been gone for some time.
你今天去了黎巴嫩——那种中心一致性似乎已经消失了一段时间了。
You could call Lebanon a cosmopolitan place, but it’s not really an advertisement for Lebanon the way it’s worked out.
你可以说黎巴嫩是一个国际化的地方，但这并不是黎巴嫩的广告。
Are we just moving to a new equilibrium, where the parasitism of cosmopolitanism is now being recognized for what it really is?
我们是否正在走向一种新的平衡，在这种平衡中，世界主义的寄生性现在正被认识到其真正的本质？
I don’t like the metaphor of the parasite.
我不喜欢寄生虫的比喻。
But yes, I do want to insist that cosmopolitanism .
但是，是的，我确实想坚持世界主义。
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Look, cosmopolitanism, as I said, does not only require, or the right kind of cosmopolitan requires a kind of rootedness, but its point, precisely, is that we are celebrating connections among different places, each of which is rooted in its own something, each of which has its distinctive virtues and interest, each of which has its own history.
看，正如我所说，世界主义不仅需要，或者说正确的世界主义需要一种根基，而且它的重点在于，我们正在庆祝不同地方之间的联系，每个地方都植根于自己的某些东西，每个地方都有其独特的美德和利益，每个地方都有自己的历史。
And we’re making connections with people for whom that place is their first place, just as I am in a place which is my first place.
我们正在与那些把那个地方视为首要地点的人建立联系，就像我在一个我的首要地点的地方一样。
So yes, cosmopolitanism requires, I think, a national sense of solidarities that are not global.
所以，是的，我认为，世界主义需要一种非全球性的民族团结意识。
That’s why, as I say, you can be a cosmopolitan patriot.
正如我所说，这就是为什么你可以成为一个国际化的爱国者。
Now, if the nationalist says, “Okay, but why do we need anything beyond national citizenship?” The answer is, we have a world to manage.
现在，如果民族主义者说：“好吧，但是为什么我们需要国家公民身份之外的东西呢？”答案是，我们有一个需要管理的世界。
The economy works better if we integrate.
如果我们一体化，经济就会运转得更好。
And for most of us — not everybody, but for most of us — interaction with others is really interesting and rewarding.
对于我们大多数人来说——不是每个人，而是我们大多数人——与他人的互动确实很有趣且有益。
And a lot of what we value here, a lot of what we value about our own stuff, our own national stuff, is actually the result of dialogue with other places.
我们在这里珍视的很多东西，我们珍视我们自己的东西、我们自己的国家东西的很多东西，实际上都是与其他地方对话的结果。
Shakespeare’s most famous play is about a Dane.
莎士比亚最著名的戏剧是关于丹麦人的。
Japan’s most famous poet, Matsuo Basho, is a Buddhist.
日本最著名的诗人松尾芭蕉是一名佛教徒。
That means he’s connected with India.
这意味着他与印度有联系。
He wrote in a script that was invented in China.
他用中国发明的文字写作。
A lot of what we value here, a lot of what we value about our own stuff, our own national stuff, is actually the result of dialogue with other places.
我们在这里珍视的很多东西，我们珍视我们自己的东西、我们自己的民族东西的很多东西，实际上都是与其他地方对话的结果。
Shakespeare’s most famous play is about a Dane.
莎士比亚最著名的戏剧是关于丹麦人的。
Japan’s most famous poet, Matsuo Basho, is a Buddhist.
日本最著名的诗人松尾芭蕉是一名佛教徒。
That means he’s connected with India.
这意味着他与印度有联系。
He wrote in a script that was invented in China.
他用中国发明的文字写作。
So a lot of what we value most in the here turns out to be connected with the there.
因此，我们在这里最看重的很多东西最终都与那里相关。
So a lot of what we value most in the here turns out to be connected with the there.
因此，我们在这里最看重的很多东西最终都与那里相关。
If we were to break off from everywhere, as from time to time societies do — Japan broke off for a while.
如果我们要像社会时不时那样与世界各地断绝关系的话——日本就会断绝一段时间。
At the end of the Ming Dynasty, China broke off for a while.
明朝末年，中国曾一度断绝。
This was not good for the development of those societies.
这不利于这些社会的发展。
Just from an internal point of view, it wasn’t good.
仅从内部角度来看，这并不好。
Should a cosmopolitan be concerned that so many of the world’s marvelous cultural objects are so concentrated in a relatively small number of museums and a relatively small number of countries, almost exclusively Western?
世界主义者是否应该担心世界上如此多的奇妙文物都集中在相对较少的博物馆和相对较少的国家（几乎都是西方国家）中？
Yes.
是的。
So, the British Museum — should they send back what they have?
那么，大英博物馆——他们应该归还他们所拥有的东西吗？
I think what the British Museum should do is what they are doing, which is to be part of the leadership of a movement in the world of museums to say, “The key questions about the great objects are access questions, not ownership questions.
我认为大英博物馆应该做的就是他们正在做的事情，那就是成为博物馆界运动的领导者，说：“关于伟大藏品的关键问题是访问问题，而不是所有权问题。
If we fuss about ownership, we’ll never make any progress.
如果我们对所有权大惊小怪，我们永远不会取得任何进展。
Let’s agree that the challenge is to make a world in which everybody in the world is, from time to time, close to a significant body of seriously interesting objects.”
让我们一致认为，挑战在于创造一个让世界上的每个人时不时地接近大量非常有趣的物体的世界。”
That means that the British Museum should be sharing, as it does, but it should be doing it more.
这意味着大英博物馆应该像它所做的那样进行分享，但它应该做得更多。
I think sending back, of course, is exactly the wrong solution because sending back means you send all the Malian stuff to Mali.
我认为寄回当然是完全错误的解决方案，因为寄回意味着你将所有马里的东西都寄到了马里。
But the trouble with Mali is not that it doesn’t have Malian stuff.
但马里的问题并不在于它没有马里的东西。
It’s that it doesn’t have Italian Renaissance stuff.
而是它没有意大利文艺复兴时期的东西。
It doesn’t have Chinese pottery.
它没有中国陶器。
It doesn’t have tapestries woven by the Aztecs.
它没有阿兹特克人编织的挂毯。
It doesn’t have lots of the world’s great treasures.
它没有很多世界上的伟大宝藏。
Better to think about the task as being a task of collectively curating the world’s collection for everybody and figuring out how to share more of it in places where it’ll be accessible, more closely accessible to some of the people in the world who don’t have access to anything now.
最好将这项任务视为一项为每个人共同策划世界藏品的任务，并弄清楚如何在可以访问的地方分享更多藏品，让世界上一些现在无法访问任何东西的人更容易接近。
That would be my ambition.
那将是我的野心。
But more Dogon artworks in Mali would be a good start, right?
但马里更多的多贡艺术品将是一个好的开始，对吧？
There could be a museum with 200 of them.
可能有一个博物馆可以收藏 200 件。
Maybe they wouldn’t be taken care of as well, but isn’t that up to people in Mali, to decide what’s the risk-return tradeoff, and they simply ought to be sent back?
也许他们也不会得到照顾，但这不是由马里人民来决定风险回报权衡吗？他们应该被遣返吗？
They were probably purchased under duress, in some cases taken?
它们可能是在胁迫下购买的，在某些情况下是被拿走的？
I don’t agree with you that it’s up to them.
我不同意你的观点，认为这取决于他们。
It’s not up to them.
这不取决于他们。
These things matter to all of us.
这些事情对我们所有人都很重要。
Their care and concern should be a concern for everybody.
他们的关心和关心应该是每个人都关心的。
It should be part of the job of the global community to think together about how to manage these things.
共同思考如何管理这些事情应该成为国际社会工作的一部分。
Now, obviously, from time to time, particular objects are in the trust of various public and private institutions in particular countries, and those countries should make sure that they perform the duties that come with having such a trust.
现在，显然，特定的物品时不时地受到特定国家的各种公共和私人机构的信任，这些国家应该确保它们履行这种信任所带来的义务。
But no, I don’t think it’s just up to them.
但不，我认为这不仅仅取决于他们。
Just to take the case of the Dogon material, the Dogon material — much of it is religious material from a religion that hardly anybody practices anymore because Mali is way more Muslim than it was in the French colonial period as a result of interesting processes which we could discuss.
就拿多贡材料来说，多贡材料——其中大部分是来自几乎没有人再信仰的宗教的宗教材料，因为马里比法国殖民时期更加穆斯林化，这是我们可以讨论的有趣过程的结果。
It’s a bit like the situation that there was in Afghanistan under the Taliban.
这有点像塔利班统治下的阿富汗的情况。
They were, as possessors of the Afghan state, trustees of a whole bunch of stuff that they thought of as idols, and some of what they did was destroy stuff because they thought it was idols.
作为阿富汗国家的拥有者，他们是一大堆他们认为是偶像的东西的受托人，他们所做的一些事情就是销毁他们认为是偶像的东西。
Fortunately, as a result of the good sense of a lot of curators in Afghanistan, who hid stuff from the Taliban, they didn’t succeed in destroying as much as they could have.
幸运的是，由于阿富汗许多策展人的良好判断力，他们向塔利班隐藏了一些东西，他们没有成功地摧毁尽可能多的东西。
But the thought that the Taliban is in charge of whether we should look after Buddhist material that happens to be in Afghanistan, I think, is a mistake.
但我认为，认为塔利班负责我们是否应该保管阿富汗境内的佛教材料的想法是错误的。
In other words, I really do think of these things, as it were, belonging to all of us, humanity.
换句话说，我确实认为这些东西是属于我们所有人的，属于人类。
This is the cosmopolitan attitude to these things, and that of course states — as with all cosmopolitan obligations — states play a central role in ensuring that they’re met.
这就是世界主义对这些事情的态度，当然，与所有世界主义义务一样，国家在确保这些义务得到履行方面发挥着核心作用。
And so each state has responsibility for the stuff in its territory, but it doesn’t have special rights to determine what happens to things just because they happen to be in its territory, any more than the Italians have any special right to decide that Etruscan stuff is bad, and therefore we’re going to not care for it.
因此，每个国家都对其领土内的东西负责，但它没有特殊的权利来决定事情会发生什么，仅仅因为它们恰好在其领土内，就像意大利人没有任何特殊的权利来决定伊特鲁里亚的东西是坏的，因此我们不会关心它。
That would be wrong.
那是错误的。
Of course, they haven’t decided that, but if they were to, it wouldn’t be sensible to say, “Well, because it’s in Italy, the Italians are entitled to do what they like with it.” They’re not.
当然，他们还没有决定，但如果他们决定了，说“好吧，因为这是在意大利，意大利人有权做他们喜欢做的事”是不明智的。他们不是。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Now, in the middle of all these dialogues, we have a segment called overrated versus underrated.
现在，在所有这些对话的中间，我们有一个称为高估与低估的部分。
I toss out a few names or ideas, and you tell me if you think they’re overrated or underrated.
我抛出了一些名字或想法，你告诉我你是否认为它们被高估或低估了。
But these will be easy.
但这些都会很容易。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Okay.
好的。
Karl Popper.
卡尔·波普尔.
That’s not easy.
这并不容易。
I don’t think he’s overrated.
我不认为他被高估了。
But is he underrated?
但他是否被低估了？
No, I think he’s rated about right.
不，我认为他的评价是正确的。
Okay.
好的。
Kant’s third Critique?
康德的第三个批判？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Why?
为什么？
Because most people in the world haven’t any idea about it, and it’s a really important document.
因为世界上大多数人对此一无所知，而这是一份非常重要的文件。
And amongst philosophers?
那么哲学家们呢？
I think philosophers give way more weight to the first Critique, and maybe that’s right, but not as much more weight than they do.
我认为哲学家对第一个批判给予了更多的重视，也许这是对的，但没有他们那么重要。
E.
E.
T.
T。
Mensah, overrated or underrated?
门萨，被高估还是被低估？
Ghanaian highlife.
加纳的上流生活。
Ghanaian highlife.
加纳的上流生活。
You know, I don’t know.
你知道，我不知道。
I haven’t asked anybody about him in Ghana recently.
我最近在加纳没有向任何人打听过他的情况。
I hope he’s not underrated.
我希望他没有被低估。
He’s one of the great Ghanaian treasures.
他是加纳最伟大的瑰宝之一。
I certainly think that if he is highly rated, that’s perfectly correct.
我当然认为，如果他的评价很高，那是完全正确的。
Ghanaian taxi drivers in Washington still know who he is, if that’s any indication.
华盛顿的加纳出租车司机仍然知道他是谁，如果这有任何迹象的话。
Well then, that’s terrific because I think that kind of highlife was one of Ghana’s great contributions to cosmopolitan global culture.
那么，这太棒了，因为我认为这种高品质生活是加纳对国际化全球文化的伟大贡献之一。
Paul Simon’s Graceland album.
保罗·西蒙的《Graceland》专辑。
How has it aged?
怎么变老了？
I don’t think pop music generally ages well, so it’s fine, but I don’t think it’s as important as it seemed at the time.
我认为流行音乐一般都不会过时，所以这很好，但我认为它并不像当时看起来那么重要。
Why doesn’t pop music age well?
为什么流行音乐不能很好地适应时代？
Well, I think because it’s meant to be for the moment.
好吧，我想因为这就是暂时的。
It’s not meant to be constructed with the kind of care and detail that goes into making the kinds of works that endure.
它的建造并不意味着要像制作经久不衰的作品那样精心和细节。
Afrofuturism, overrated or underrated?
非洲未来主义，被高估还是被低估？
Overrated.
被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
Because that kind of slogan, I think, doesn’t help do anything.
因为我认为这种口号没有任何帮助。
But the notion that there’s some new way to think about African or Pan-African identity by looking forward rather than backward?
但是，是否有某种新的方式可以通过向前看而不是向后看来思考非洲或泛非洲的身份？
That’s not a useful idea?
这不是一个有用的想法吗？
Manifested through science fiction, cinema, it seemed to inspire a lot of people.
它通过科幻小说、电影得以体现，似乎激励了很多人。
Well, it inspired a lot of the kind of people that you and I would know about, but if you want to know what’s really being consumed by the mass publics in Africa, I don’t know that Afrofuturism would count as one of the —
嗯，它启发了很多你我都认识的人，但如果你想知道非洲大众真正消费的是什么，我不知道非洲未来主义会被算作其中之一——
But say, Black Panther — maybe not in Africa, but I’m sure it was pirated in Africa, as well.
但是，比如说《黑豹》——也许不在非洲，但我确信它在非洲也被盗版了。
That’s had a major impact.
这产生了重大影响。
Many millions of people have watched it, felt in some way motivated or inspired.
数百万人观看了它，并在某种程度上感受到了激励或启发。
Was the vision behind that movie a mistake in some way?
那部电影背后的愿景在某种程度上是错误的吗？
I think it was a very sentimental film, which sought to .
我认为这是一部非常感伤的电影，它试图……
.
。
.
。
It’s a bit like the way in which the pyramids figure in Afrocentrism.
这有点像非洲中心主义中金字塔的形象。
That is to say, the reality is Africa did not develop advanced technologies in the remote past and build on them, and I think a fantasy in which they did doesn’t really help us to think about Africa’s future.
也就是说，现实是非洲在遥远的过去并没有开发出先进技术并以此为基础，我认为他们所做的幻想并不能真正帮助我们思考非洲的未来。
What was it like teaching Jodie Foster?
教朱迪·福斯特感觉如何？
She’s a very smart woman.
她是一个非常聪明的女人。
What struck you about her?
她的什么让你印象深刻？
Well, she was a very smart woman.
嗯，她是一个非常聪明的女人。
She’s very engaged with thinking about — at that point, I don’t know what she thinks about now — she wrote a wonderful senior thesis about Toni Morrison, which I admired.
她非常热衷于思考——当时，我不知道她现在在想什么——她写了一篇关于托妮·莫里森的精彩毕业论文，我很钦佩。
A few comparisons I’ll toss out.
一些比较我会扔掉。
Gwen versus Augustus John.
格温与奥古斯都·约翰。
Which painter do you prefer?
你更喜欢哪位画家呢？
I know it’s conventional now to prefer Gwen John, but I still think that the best Augustus John paintings are pretty amazing, and I’m not sure that I think that about anything of Gwen John’s.
我知道现在人们更喜欢格温·约翰，但我仍然认为奥古斯都·约翰最好的画作非常令人惊叹，而且我不确定我对格温·约翰的任何作品是否有同样的看法。
James Brown or Fela Kuti?
詹姆斯·布朗还是费拉·库蒂？
I think I’m a James Brown man by a smidge.
我想我有点像詹姆斯·布朗人。
Mark Twain or Harriet Beecher Stowe?
马克·吐温还是哈丽特·比彻·斯托？
Mark Twain.
马克·吐温.
Why?
为什么？
Well, he’s much funnier, for one thing.
嗯，一方面，他更有趣。
He has a wider range.
他的范围更广。
He’s an essayist and a humorist as well as a novelist.
他是一位散文家、幽默家以及小说家。
So, in all of those ways, he’s a more interesting writer.
所以，从所有这些方面来看，他是一位更有趣的作家。
Harriet Beecher Stowe had a huge influence through one book.
哈丽特·比彻·斯托通过一本书产生了巨大的影响。
Huge and positive influence, which I am glad about, but as a literary figure, I think Twain is obviously superior.
巨大而积极的影响，我对此感到高兴，但作为一个文学人物，我认为吐温显然更胜一筹。
And here’s the question that will really get you in trouble.
这是一个真正会给你带来麻烦的问题。
Does Ghana or Nigeria have the better jollof rice?
加纳和尼日利亚的jollof大米哪个更好？
I think that the answer is that the best jollof rice in West Africa may not be in either Ghana or Nigeria, but I’ll stick with my own preference for Ghanaian, but that’s probably just a question of what you’re used to.
我认为答案是西非最好的乔洛夫大米可能不在加纳或尼日利亚，但我会坚持自己对加纳米饭的偏好，但这可能只是你习惯的问题。
I’m going to have some next weekend, so I’ll be reminded.
下周末我要去吃一些，所以我会被提醒。
In Ghana.
在加纳。
No, no, I’m going to be in England, but my niece WhatsApped me an hour ago and said, “I’m going to bring jollof rice.”
不，不，我要去英国，但我的侄女一小时前给我发了 WhatsApp 消息，说：“我要带乔洛夫大米。”
Oh, great.
哦，太好了。
And I thought, “Wow, that’s cool.”
我想，“哇，那太酷了。”
On his approach philosophy
论他的方法哲学
Some questions about philosophy.
关于哲学的一些问题。
Just sort of standing on one foot briefly, how would you position yourself in the philosophic canon?
只是简单地用一只脚站立，你会如何在哲学经典中定位自己？
I think of myself as someone whose main contribution is to notice things of interest in philosophical work and draw them to the attention of a public that’s wider than the public that already knows about them, the philosophical world that already knows about them.
我认为自己的主要贡献是注意到哲学工作中感兴趣的事物，并将它们吸引到比已经了解它们的公众、已经了解它们的哲学世界更广泛的公众的注意力。
Also, I happened to be in a place and a time, in the early ’80s in New Haven, Connecticut, at Yale, where there was a possibility of making a kind of connection between analytic philosophy — the kind of philosophy I was trained in — and questions in African and African-American studies.
另外，我碰巧在一个地方和一个时间，八十年代初在康涅狄格州纽黑文的耶鲁大学，那里有可能在分析哲学（我受过训练的那种哲学）与非洲和非裔美国人研究中的问题之间建立某种联系。
To the extent that there is a subfield of African-American studies that’s philosophical, I think I can claim to have more or less started it.
在某种程度上，非裔美国人研究有一个哲学子领域，我想我可以声称或多或少已经开始了它。
Of course there are ancestors like Du Bois, but in terms of thinking about how a philosophical training should be brought to bear in thinking about African-American stuff, I definitely was one of the first people to.
当然有像杜波依斯这样的祖先，但就思考如何将哲学训练应用于思考非裔美国人的问题而言，我绝对是最早的人之一。
I think I had the first appointment in philosophy in African-American studies in the world, and that was luck.
我认为我在世界上第一个非裔美国人研究哲学领域的任命，这很幸运。
It was Yale that thought of making that appointment.
是耶鲁大学想到了这个任命。
I didn’t invent the job, but it gave me a challenge: How can you take this training you’ve had, which has nothing at all to do with race or gender or sexual orientation or anything else — how can you take that and bring it to bear in thinking about things that are central to African-American studies?
我没有发明这份工作，但它给了我一个挑战：你如何接受你所接受的培训，它与种族、性别、性取向或其他任何东西都没有关系——你如何接受它，并将其用于思考非裔美国人研究的核心问题？
I’m really lucky that I was faced with that question, just as a teacher, because I had to teach things.
我真的很幸运，作为一名老师，我面临着这个问题，因为我必须教东西。
I had to teach philosophy courses in African-American studies.
我必须教授非裔美国人研究的哲学课程。
I was really lucky, and it was sort of obvious that there was lots of material that could be brought to bear, so to the extent that I have a tiny place in the history of the subject, it’s probably in that intersection.
我真的很幸运，很明显有很多材料可以发挥作用，所以就我在这个主题的历史中占有的一小部分来说，它可能就在那个交叉点上。
How can we bring more diversity — racial and otherwise — to philosophy?
我们如何才能为哲学带来更多的多样性——种族的和其他方面的？
What concretely should we do?
具体我们应该做什么呢？
Well, the challenge is that .
嗯，挑战在于。
.
。
.
。
I don’t remember the numbers exactly, but it’s something like this.
我记不太清了，但大概是这样的。
Men and women enter undergraduate philosophy at about the same rates, but women leave faster, so that by the end of college, there are more males than females in most philosophy majors.
男性和女性进入哲学本科生的比例大致相同，但女性离开的速度更快，因此到大学结束时，大多数哲学专业的男性人数多于女性。
There’s about a third, I think.
我想大约有三分之一。
So obviously that means that in graduate school, there’s probably about a third women to start with, but again, more of them leave, so clearly, we’re doing something wrong because it isn’t that women are not equally interested in the subject, as they arrive.
很明显，这意味着在研究生院，可能会有大约三分之一的女性开始，但同样，更多的女性离开了，所以很明显，我们做错了什么，因为并不是女性在到达时对这个学科没有同样的兴趣。
But they may have more common sense, right?
但他们可能有更多常识，对吗？
Philosophers are underpaid relative to their smarts, and at some point, you might just say, “Gee, why am I doing this?”
相对于哲学家的聪明才智，他们的薪水过低，在某些时候，你可能会说，“哎呀，我为什么要这样做？”
You might, but I don’t think that that’s what’s going on.
你可能会，但我认为事实并非如此。
I think that the .
我认为 .
.
。
.
。
On the paid question, philosophers are the best paid of humanities majors, so if you’re going to stick in the humanities, and you’re just interested in income, you should probably be a philosopher.
在付费问题上，哲学家是人文学科专业中收入最高的，所以如果你想坚持人文学科，并且你只对收入感兴趣，你可能应该成为一名哲学家。
But obviously, you wouldn’t commit yourself to a life in philosophy if money was the main thing in your life, the thing that you cared about most.
但显然，如果金钱是你生活中最重要的事情，你最关心的事情，你就不会致力于哲学生活。
I think they leave because .
我认为他们离开是因为。
.
。
.
。
There’s some psychological evidence about this.
有一些关于这一点的心理学证据。
One reason I think, and Sarah-Jane Leslie — who’s now a dean at Princeton — but she’s a philosopher and psychologist that’s thought about this.
我认为原因之一是莎拉-简·莱斯利（Sarah-Jane Leslie）——她现在是普林斯顿大学的院长——但她是一位思考过这个问题的哲学家和心理学家。
One reason is that there’s been a tendency in analytic philosophy to treat the question of how people perform early in the subject as an indication of whether they have this thing, this it that can make for good philosophy.
一个原因是，分析哲学中有一种倾向，将人们在该学科的早期表现如何的问题视为他们是否拥有这个东西，这个东西可以构成良好的哲学。
Truth is, as in most things, the good philosophers are people who work hard and who maybe have some psychological traits, but they’re pretty widely distributed in the population.
事实是，就像在大多数事情上一样，优秀的哲学家都是努力工作的人，并且可能具有一些心理特征，但他们在人群中分布相当广泛。
What happens then is that in the first process of developing as a philosopher, you meet these teachers who, explicitly or implicitly, communicate the thought that if you don’t do well in a paper, it’s not their fault; it’s because you don’t have it.
然后发生的事情是，在作为哲学家发展的第一个过程中，你会遇到这些老师，他们或明或暗地传达这样的想法：如果你在论文中表现不佳，那不是他们的错；而是他们的错。那是因为你没有它。
This is a place where women do seem to be more sensible than men.
这就是女人确实显得比男人懂事的地方。
That is, if they get indications that they’re in an activity where they’re not going to do well, they wisely move to something where they think they will.
也就是说，如果有迹象表明他们正在从事一项他们不会做得很好的活动，他们会明智地转向他们认为自己会做得很好的事情。
Boys and young men are more likely to resist a little bit and to insist on trying again.
男孩和年轻人更有可能会稍稍反抗并坚持再次尝试。
That seems to be the evidence.
看来这就是证据。
Since it’s false that there’s some it that people have that makes them successful in philosophy, we should not be communicating this.
由于认为人们拥有某种使他们在哲学上取得成功的东西是错误的，所以我们不应该传播这一点。
So the most important practical thing is to say to all the people who teach undergraduate philosophers, “Don’t say that.
因此，最重要的实际事情是对所有教授本科生哲学家的人说：“不要这么说。
Explain to them that if they don’t do well on their first paper, it’s probably because they haven’t worked hard enough, or they didn’t ask enough help from the teacher or the teaching assistants; that if they push on, they’re likely to get better.”
向他们解释，如果他们第一篇论文做得不好，可能是因为他们不够努力，或者他们没有向老师或助教寻求足够的帮助；如果他们继续前进，他们可能会变得更好。”
I think at that stage, that’s a really important thing, but then we have to worry about the next stage, at the graduate level.
我认为在那个阶段，这是一件非常重要的事情，但我们必须担心下一阶段，即研究生阶段。
We have a climate committee in our department that thinks all the time about making sure that everything about the climate in the department is not putting off for women, racial minorities, trans people, and so on, gay people — anybody who might for one reason or another feel alienated.
我们部门有一个气候委员会，它一直在思考确保部门中有关气候的一切不会对女性、少数族裔、跨性别者等同性恋者——任何可能因某种原因感到疏远的人产生影响。
We spend a lot of our time making sure that we don’t do the things that alienate them, and another whole category of people who can be alienated by college experience are people who come from backgrounds where they don’t have parents who went to college or who don’t have very much money in their background.
我们花了很多时间来确保我们不做那些疏远他们的事情，而另一类可能因大学经历而疏远的人是那些来自父母没有上过大学的人，或者他们的背景没有太多钱的人。
Interacting with people who do — that can be an unsatisfying or unpleasant experience unless the people that you’re interacting with are thoughtful people.
与这样做的人互动可能会是一种令人不满意或不愉快的经历，除非与您互动的人是有思想的人。
So, we try as hard as we can to be thoughtful about these things, and I’m saying we do it in my department, but all the departments, all the serious departments would be doing this now.
因此，我们尽最大努力考虑这些事情，我是说我们在我的部门这样做，但所有部门、所有严肃的部门现在都会这样做。
Does it matter if philosophic realism is true?
哲学实在论是否正确重要吗？
Well, mattering is a two-place relation.
嗯，重要的是两个地方的关系。
Things matter to somebody.
事情对某人来说很重要。
It matters to me, but it wouldn’t have mattered to my mother, and I think my mother was a perfectly satisfactory human being for its not having mattered to her.
这对我很重要，但对我母亲来说并不重要，我认为我母亲是一个完全令人满意的人，因为这对她来说并不重要。
She knew that I wrote a book about realism.
她知道我写了一本关于现实主义的书。
I’m glad to say she didn’t ask me to explain it to her, not because she wasn’t smart, but because she wasn’t interested.
我很高兴她没有让我向她解释，不是因为她不聪明，而是因为她不感兴趣。
You write a column for the New York Times called “The Ethicist,” and you give people ethical advice.
您为《纽约时报》撰写了一篇名为“伦理学家”的专栏，并为人们提供道德建议。
To what extent do you think advice in any context, including that, is mainly a placebo?
您认为任何情况下的建议（包括这种情况）在多大程度上主要是安慰剂？
That people feel they’ve gotten advice, they feel stronger, they feel more confident.
人们觉得他们得到了建议，他们感觉更坚强，他们感觉更自信。
They may go ahead and do what they want to anyway.
无论如何，他们可能会继续做他们想做的事。
You’ve benefited them, but advice is something other than actual advice.
你使他们受益，但建议并不是实际的建议。
Honestly, the main thing I think I’m doing in the column is helping everybody except the person that wrote the letter to think about some ethical question, which is for them not likely to be an urgent one in the way it is for the letter writer.
老实说，我认为我在专栏中所做的主要事情是帮助除了写信人之外的每个人思考一些道德问题，这对他们来说不太可能像写信人那样紧迫。
For the letter writers, of course I don’t give advice that I think will do them any harm, but I’m not usually feeling that the advice I’ve given them is either (a) very different from what they would have done without my advice, or (b) really, truly satisfactory because if I were in the business of advising, as opposed to writing an advice column, which is not being in the business of advising, I would want to know more in almost every case about their situation.
对于写信人来说，我当然不会提供我认为会对他们造成任何伤害的建议，但我通常不会觉得我给他们的建议要么（a）与他们没有我的建议时所做的有很大不同，要么（b）真的非常令人满意，因为如果我从事提供建议的工作，而不是写一个不从事提供建议的建议专栏，我会想在几乎所有情况下更多地了解他们的情况。
If they came to me with the question, the first thing I’d say is, “Tell me more about this.
如果他们向我提出问题，我会说的第一句话是：“告诉我更多关于这个问题的信息。
Tell me more about that,” and so on.
告诉我更多相关信息，”等等。
But the convention is that the letter is all I get, and while the fact checkers at the Times do call people up to make sure that everything in the letter is true, they don’t allow me to ask them questions.
但按照惯例，我收到的只是这封信，虽然《纽约时报》的事实核查员确实会打电话给人们以确保信中的所有内容都是真实的，但他们不允许我向他们提问。
I think that in real life, a lot of the function of advice is actually the one you identified.
我认为在现实生活中，很多建议的作用实际上就是你所确定的。
It’s just being a sounding board.
它只是一个共鸣板。
It’s listening.
它在听。
The person’s going to do something, but it’s helpful to be heard.
这个人会做某事，但被听到会很有帮助。
It’s helpful to articulate the problem for yourself.
为自己阐明问题很有帮助。
The advice function — the thing that the advisor says — may not be hugely important.
建议功能——顾问说的话——可能并不是很重要。
There’s some evidence that people who know just a little about financial literacy do worse than people who know nothing at all because they then think they can go out and make investments, but until they know a lot, that may be counterproductive.
有证据表明，只了解一点金融知识的人比一无所知的人表现更差，因为他们认为自己可以出去进行投资，但在他们了解很多之前，这可能会适得其反。
Do you ever worry about that with advice?
你有没有担心过这个问题并提出建议？
If I thought that I was the only resource for the people who are writing the letters, I wouldn’t write the column.
如果我认为我是那些写信的人的唯一资源，我就不会写这个专栏。
All I’m trying to do is to identify something in the question that strikes me as worth thinking about, mostly, as I say, not for the person who wrote to me, but for the million other people who are going to read it.
我想做的就是找出问题中那些让我觉得值得思考的东西，正如我所说，主要不是为了给我写信的人，而是为了数以百万计的其他将要阅读它的人。
I’ve never had a question where I thought, “If I answer this with what I think is the best advice I have, there’s a risk that something bad will happen.” I’ve never had that happen.
我从来没有遇到过这样的问题：“如果我用我认为最好的建议来回答这个问题，那么就有可能发生不好的事情。”我从来没有发生过这种情况。
Do you think there’s a risk that people just feel inadequate, that they know somewhat what’s the right thing to do, but they ask you.
你是否认为存在这样的风险：人们只是觉得自己不够好，他们知道什么是正确的事情，但他们会问你。
You confirm their intuition, and then they’re like, “Oh my goodness, I already knew I’m not up to that, but now society is really telling me I’m not up to that,” and they just go away feeling bad?
你证实了他们的直觉，然后他们会说，“哦，天哪，我已经知道我无法做到这一点，但现在社会真的告诉我我无法做到这一点，”然后他们就离开了，感觉很糟糕？
Possible.
可能的。
As I say, I get zero information beyond the letter, and perhaps surprisingly, people don’t often communicate with me or try to communicate with me about what I’ve said, especially the people who asked the question.
正如我所说，除了这封信之外，我得到的信息为零，也许令人惊讶的是，人们并不经常与我交流或尝试与我交流我所说的内容，尤其是提出问题的人。
So, it’s possible that it makes people feel bad, but what I imagine is that there are many reasons why people write in.
所以，这可能会让人们感觉不好，但我想人们写下来的原因有很多。
One is they just want to, as it were, write it down.
一是他们只是想把它写下来。
They’ve got a problem.
他们有问题。
They think, “If I just write out this question, I’ll get clearer about what my situation is, and maybe this guy will even help me get a little bit clearer.”
他们想，“如果我把这个问题写下来，我就会更清楚自己的处境，也许这个人甚至会帮助我更清楚一点。”
But I think a lot of them are people who’ve had an argument with somebody about what they should do, and they want me to take sides.
但我认为他们中的很多人都曾与某人争论过他们应该做什么，他们希望我站在一边。
Now, they don’t explicitly say that, and they don’t tell me what the other side is, usually, though occasionally somebody says, “Well, my wife thinks this, and I think that.”
现在，他们通常不会明确地说出这一点，也不会告诉我另一方是什么，尽管偶尔有人会说，“嗯，我妻子这么认为，我也这么认为。”
So I think sometimes the function of my answer is for it to be something that on Sunday morning gets slapped down on the breakfast table.
所以我认为有时我的答案的作用是让它成为周日早上放在早餐桌上的东西。
“See, he agrees with me.” Or that gets hidden away because I don’t agree with you, and you don’t want your whoever it is you’re arguing with to know that the Times ethicist has taken their side.
“你看，他同意我的观点。”或者因为我不同意你的观点而被隐藏起来，而且你不希望与你争论的人知道《泰晤士报》的伦理学家站在他们一边。
But as I say, I think it’s really important that I don’t believe that anybody who was in serious difficulty should think of writing to the New York Times and waiting perhaps months for an answer is a sensible way to seek a solution.
但正如我所说，我认为非常重要的是，我不认为任何陷入严重困难的人应该考虑写信给《纽约时报》，等待可能几个月的答复是寻求解决方案的明智方式。
The main function of the column from my point of view, as I say, is to get out ideas for thinking about the big things that happen in everybody’s life.
正如我所说，从我的角度来看，该专栏的主要功能是提出思考每个人生活中发生的大事的想法。
Questions about confidentiality, loyalty, the balancing of interests, what difference your relationship with a person makes to what you owe to them — these sorts of things, which I think philosophy has a lot to say about, and it’s useful for people to think about, whether or not they’re currently facing a question of that kind.
关于保密、忠诚、利益平衡、你与一个人的关系对你欠他们的东西有什么影响——这些问题，我认为哲学有很多话要说，对于人们思考是有用的，无论他们目前是否面临着这类问题。
What do you think is the next undervalued moral revolution on its way, say within the next decade?
您认为下一个被低估的道德革命是什么，比如在未来十年内？
I should have a standard answer to that, but I don’t.
我应该对此有一个标准答案，但我没有。
I think that we’re seeing .
我认为我们正在看到。
.
。
.
。
There’s a long tradition in Muslim moral thought of making each of us, at least each Muslim, responsible for the moral lives of other Muslims in a certain way.
穆斯林道德思想有着悠久的传统，即让我们每个人，至少是每个穆斯林，以某种方式对其他穆斯林的道德生活负责。
It refers to a passage in the Koran about commanding right and forbidding wrong.
它指的是《古兰经》中关于指挥正确、禁止错误的一段话。
This society was, when I came here 30-something years ago, very much a society in which people thought that you left other people to do their own moral thing.
当我三十多年前来到这里时，这个社会在很大程度上是一个人们认为你可以离开其他人去做他们自己的道德事情的社会。
Now there’s an interesting change going on, that people feel inclined to intervene in the moral lives even of strangers and to say what they think about it.
现在正在发生一个有趣的变化，人们倾向于干预陌生人的道德生活，并说出他们的想法。
Maybe not to coerce them, of course, into doing anything in particular, but at least to express a view.
当然，也许不是强迫他们做任何特别的事情，但至少表达一种观点。
If that takes hold, it will be a huge revolution in the moral life of our society.
如果这一点得以实现，这将是我们社会道德生活的一场巨大革命。
This society was, when I came here 30-something years ago, very much a society in which people thought that you left other people to do their own moral thing.
当我三十多年前来到这里时，这个社会在很大程度上是一个人们认为你可以离开其他人去做他们自己的道德事情的社会。
Now there’s an interesting change going on, that people feel inclined to intervene in the moral lives even of strangers and to say what they think about it.
现在正在发生一个有趣的变化，人们倾向于干预陌生人的道德生活，并说出他们的想法。
Maybe not to coerce them, of course, into doing anything in particular, but at least to express a view.
当然，也许不是强迫他们做任何特别的事情，但至少表达一种观点。
If that takes hold, it will be a huge revolution in the moral life of our society.
如果这一点得以实现，这将是我们社会道德生活的一场巨大革命。
And what in our behavior will change the most, say within 10, 15 years?
比如说在 10 年、15 年内，我们的行为会发生什么最大的改变？
You mean if that happens?
你的意思是如果发生这种情况？
If that happened.
如果发生这种情况。
If it continues.
如果继续的话。
I think there’ll be a lot more of what are called bystander interventions in social life.
我认为社会生活中将会有更多所谓的旁观者干预。
That will mean that, probably, there’ll be a lot less sexual and racial and homophobic harassment because bystanders are very useful in dealing with that kind of thing.
这可能意味着性骚扰、种族骚扰和恐同骚扰会减少很多，因为旁观者在处理此类事情时非常有用。
That will be good.
那会很好。
A lot of people now witness those kinds of things, and they think it’s wrong, but they don’t say anything because we have this idea that, as I said, that “everybody’s responsible for their own moral life” kind of thing.
现在很多人都目睹了这类事情，他们认为这是错误的，但他们什么也没说，因为我们有这样的想法，正如我所说，“每个人都对自己的道德生活负责”之类的事情。
If that were to take off, it would be a big change.
如果这一点得以实现，那将是一个巨大的变化。
It would have downsides as well as upsides — as these changes often do — because there’s a reason why, in the Muslim case, the tradition says that while you should do this, you shouldn’t, for example, be too nosy about what other people are doing because then the balance would shift too far in the other direction.
它既有好处也有坏处——正如这些变化经常带来的那样——因为在穆斯林的例子中，传统认为，虽然你应该这样做，但你不应该太关心其他人在做什么，因为这样平衡就会向另一个方向移动太远，这是有原因的。
And there are people who would respond to a change like that by nosily poking about in other people’s lives, and I think there’s a place for moral privacy, as well.
有些人会通过八卦别人的生活来应对这样的变化，我认为道德隐私也有一席之地。
Like all these things, it’s likely to go too far at some point.
就像所有这些事情一样，在某些时候它可能会走得太远。
On the Kwame Anthony Appiah production function
关于 Kwame Anthony Appiah 生产函数
For our final segment, we cover your life.
在我们的最后一部分，我们将介绍您的生活。
I sometimes call this the Kwame Anthony Appiah production function.
我有时将其称为 Kwame Anthony Appiah 生产函数。
Simple question — you were a child, you met Richard Wright, James Baldwin.
简单的问题——你小时候，遇到了理查德·赖特、詹姆斯·鲍德温。
What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
I don’t remember.
我不记得了。
You don’t remember.
你不记得了。
I don’t remember my childhood.
我不记得我的童年了。
I got very, very sick when I was eight and spent several months in hospital, and I have zero memories of anything before that, unfortunately.
我八岁时病得很重，在医院住了几个月，不幸的是，我对之前的任何事情的记忆都为零。
And when you were in the hospital, Nkrumah walked past your hospital bed.
当你住院时，恩克鲁玛走过你的病床。
Do you remember that?
你还记得吗？
I do remember that.
我确实记得这一点。
What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
I was recovering at that point.
那时我正在康复。
That was very exciting.
那非常令人兴奋。
I knew he had put my father in prison, but he was still the president of our country, and it was very exciting to have him there.
我知道他把我父亲关进了监狱，但他仍然是我们国家的总统，他的到来让我非常兴奋。
I was upset that he was with the Queen of England, and she greeted me and he didn’t.
我很沮丧他和英国女王在一起，她向我打招呼，但他没有。
I was upset that he didn’t say hello, since he’d been a very close friend of my parents.
我很不高兴他没有打招呼，因为他是我父母的非常亲密的朋友。
He was going to be the best man at their wedding when he became leader of government business in Ghana, so he sent somebody else.
当他成为加纳政府事务的领导者时，他将成为他们婚礼上的伴郎，所以他派了其他人。
They’d been very close, so even though he was my father’s imprisoner, I think I remember feeling that he should have not tapped his foot and looked at the ceiling, which is basically what he did.
他们关系非常亲密，所以即使他是我父亲的囚徒，我想我记得我觉得他不应该跺脚并看着天花板，这基本上就是他所做的。
What did you say back to the queen when she greeted you?
当女王向你打招呼时，你对她说了什么？
Well, the Queen, in hospitals, tends to ask this slightly daft question, which is, “How are you?” And the answer should always be, “Well, I’m in hospital, so.” But of course, I said I was very well.
嗯，女王在医院里往往会问这个有点愚蠢的问题，那就是“你好吗？”答案应该总是：“嗯，我在医院，所以。”但当然，我说我很好。
The thing that got me in trouble was when the Duke of Edinburgh — who had visited my hometown, Kumasi, without the Queen previously and had met my mother — turned around as he was leaving and said, “Give my regards to your mother,” which is a conventional thing for members of the royal family to say of somebody they had met before.
让我陷入麻烦的是，爱丁堡公爵之前曾在没有女王的情况下访问过我的家乡库马西，并见过我的母亲，他在离开时转身说：“代我向你的母亲问好”，这是王室成员对他们以前见过的人说的惯用语。
At that point, the president realized that he knew who I was.
那时，总统意识到他知道我是谁。
And later, what was it like having — was it an uncle, a great-uncle — as king?
后来，拥有——是叔叔、叔祖父——当国王是什么感觉？
I had both because my great-uncle was succeeded by my uncle.
我两者都有，因为我的叔祖父是由我的叔叔继承的。
They’re very different — to me — because my great-uncle was this incredible, charismatic symbol of Ashantiness.
对我来说，他们非常不同，因为我的叔祖父是阿善蒂斯令人难以置信的、有魅力的象征。
We would sometimes go up and see him with my mother and my sisters on a Sunday after church.
有时，我们会在周日做完礼拜后和我的母亲和姐妹们一起去看他。
We would just go and sit and chat to him.
我们就去坐下来和他聊天。
But it wasn’t like chatting with a member of the family.
但这并不像与家庭成员聊天。
He was a very grand figure.
他是一个非常伟大的人物。
He was always dressed in these amazing Ashanti Kente robes.
他总是穿着这些令人惊叹的阿散蒂肯特长袍。
So, that was kind of exciting, and you were awed by him.
所以，这有点令人兴奋，你对他感到敬畏。
The next king of Ashanti, whom I knew as a child as Uncle Matthew before he became king, was someone .
阿散蒂的下一任国王，在他成为国王之前，我小时候就知道他是马修叔叔，他是一个人。
.
。
.
。
When I was a kid, I hung out with him.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我和他一起出去玩。
We walked around hand in hand when I was a kid, and so on.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我们手牵手散步，等等。
I knew him very intimately.
我非常熟悉他。
So, while it was also the case that somehow being invested with this job made him seem a little bit magical, he was still, fundamentally, just my uncle Matthew.
因此，虽然不知何故对这份工作的投入也让他看起来有点神奇，但从根本上来说，他仍然只是我的叔叔马修。
Did you know your British grandfather at all, when he was —
你了解你的英国祖父吗，当时他——
Alas, no. He died before I was born.
唉，不。他在我出生之前就去世了。
In fact, he died before my parents were married.
事实上，他在我父母结婚之前就去世了。
My mother always said about him that, because he was chancellor of the exchequer in Britain and in charge of a period of austerity after the war, that everybody always had this image of him as this austere figure, incapable of enjoyment.
我母亲总是这样评价他，因为他是英国财政大臣，负责战后一段时期的紧缩政策，所以每个人都对他有这样的印象：他是一个严峻的人物，无法享受。
But in fact, she said, he had lots of fun.
但事实上，她说，他玩得很开心。
Churchill picked up on this way of thinking about my grandfather when he said that “There but for the grace of God goes God,” he said about my grandfather.
当丘吉尔谈到我的祖父时，他说“没有上帝的恩典，上帝就会降临”，他接受了这种对我祖父的思考方式。
He was very religious, he was very pious, but he wasn’t humorless, and I think people got the impression that he was.
他非常虔诚，非常虔诚，但他并不缺乏幽默感，我认为人们对他的印象是这样的。
What do you learn from having a sheep farm in New Jersey?
您从新泽西州的养羊场学到了什么？
I learned that it is possible to be a happy creature that doesn’t know about Donald Trump and doesn’t worry about the fate of the world.
我了解到，做一个不了解唐纳德·特朗普、也不担心世界命运的快乐生物是可能的。
My sheep are .
我的羊是。
.
。
.
。
We feed them properly, and they have access to water, and they can run around, and there are no big dogs to scare them, or wolves or anything like that.
我们给它们提供了适当的食物，它们可以喝到水，它们可以到处跑，而且没有大狗来吓唬它们，也没有狼或类似的东西。
No predators.
没有掠食者。
Their lives seem happy, and when I’m visiting them, I’m reminded of the possibility of a kind of untroubled existence.
他们的生活看起来很幸福，当我拜访他们时，我想起了一种无忧无虑的生活的可能性。
Do you think it helps your work to have two very distinct physical habitats to do things in?
您认为拥有两个截然不同的物理栖息地对您的工作有帮助吗？
I think it does.
我认为确实如此。
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
For example, the column — I almost always work on the column at the weekend in the living room of our house in New Jersey.
例如，专栏——周末我几乎总是在新泽西州家的客厅里写专栏。
I work for six or seven hours, maybe, just with a laptop and the questions and occasional cups of coffee, and that’s a very productive space for me.
我可能会工作六到七个小时，只需要一台笔记本电脑和一些问题，偶尔喝杯咖啡，这对我来说是一个非常富有成效的空间。
I get that done that way.
我就是这样完成的。
Here in New York, I almost never get anything done in either of my offices.
在纽约，我的两个办公室几乎从来没有完成过任何事情。
I have an office in the law school, an office in the philosophy department, but in this very room, too, I also sometimes sit with my laptop, and again, I can sit for six or seven hours and write things.
我在法学院有一个办公室，在哲学系有一个办公室，但就在这个房间里，我有时也会坐在笔记本电脑前，同样，我可以坐六七个小时写东西。
I’ve actually almost never done a column in this space for some reason, so that’s usually writing lectures or articles or reviews.
事实上，出于某种原因，我几乎从未在这个领域做过专栏，所以通常是写讲座、文章或评论。
I have a beautiful study in New Jersey, and I’ve never managed to write a single word in it.
我在新泽西州有一间漂亮的书房，但我却从未在里面写过一个字。
It somehow doesn’t work for me.
它在某种程度上对我不起作用。
I have a lovely desk, and I’m surrounded by a lovely library of books, and there’s a fireplace and so on, but it just doesn’t work.
我有一张可爱的桌子，周围有一个可爱的图书馆，还有壁炉等等，但它就是不起作用。
The place that works is sitting in a living room with a laptop on my lap.
工作的地方是坐在客厅里，膝上放着一台笔记本电脑。
I love the novel Milkman, by the way.
顺便说一句，我喜欢小说《送奶工》。
What have you learned from chairing the Booker Prize?
您从主持布克奖中学到了什么？
That fiction in English is in great shape.
那部英文小说状况很好。
There are just lots of wonderful novels.
有很多精彩的小说。
I read 173 novels for that.
为此我读了173本小说。
Did that make you a better reader or a worse reader?
这会让你成为一个更好的读者还是一个更差的读者？
I don’t think you should read novels in the way you have to read them for that purpose because you’re — I did read them all.
我认为你不应该以你必须为了这个目的而阅读小说的方式来阅读小说，因为你——我确实读过它们。
That is to say, I read every page of almost all — I lie.
也就是说，我几乎读了每一页——我撒谎了。
I did not read every page of one of them, which was awful.
我没有读其中一本的每一页，这太糟糕了。
But at some point, you just know you don’t like it.
但在某些时候，你只是知道你不喜欢它。
You’re not going to give the prize to a book which has a great second half, right?
你不会把奖颁给一本后半部分很精彩的书，对吧？
The whole book has to be good.
整本书一定不错。
Yes, but still, the judges felt that we owed it to these people to read them right through, so we did.
是的，但评委们仍然认为我们有义务把这些内容读完，所以我们就这么做了。
I wouldn’t urge .
我不会催促。
.
。
.
。
You’re reading very, very fast because you’ve got less than a year, and you’ve got to read all these books, and you are reading with a question in mind, which is not the question you normally have in mind when you read a novel, which is, “Is this worthy of this prize?” It’s a funny frame of mind.
你读得非常非常快，因为你只有不到一年的时间，你必须读完所有这些书，你带着一个问题去读，这不是你读小说时通常会想到的问题，那就是，“这值得这个奖吗？”这是一种有趣的心态。
So, you read 173.
所以，你读了173。
Then you make a long list of 13, and those you can then read again at a reasonable rate in the last part of the summer.
然后你列出一长串 13 本书，然后你可以在夏天的最后一段时间以合理的速度再次阅读这些内容。
Then once you’ve picked the six, you get to read those again, so the final list you’ve read three times, and the last two times you read them at a reasonable rate.
然后，一旦你选择了六个，你就可以再次阅读它们，所以最终的列表你已经阅读了三遍，最后两次你以合理的速度阅读了它们。
So, you’ve read them in a sort of normal way, but there are books that I read for that, that I’m going to read again because I didn’t feel I read them properly.
所以，你已经以一种正常的方式阅读了它们，但有些书我是为此而读的，我会再读一遍，因为我觉得我没有正确地阅读它们。
And you’re now on a committee for an architecture prize.
您现在是建筑奖委员会的成员。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Yes.
是的。
And do you visit sites or you’re .
你会访问网站吗？
.
。
.
。
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
There are architects or designers who actually visit the sites, but they produce very extensive reports.
有建筑师或设计师实际访问了这些地点，但他们制作了非常广泛的报告。
We pick the finalists, the 20-something finalists, by looking at portfolios.
我们通过查看作品集来挑选决赛入围者，即 20 多位决赛入围者。
Then there’s a presentation of each building over a series of days, and so on, and that’s how the choices are made.
然后是一系列几天内每栋建筑的展示，依此类推，这就是做出选择的方式。
And how effective do you think prizes are in stimulating achievement?
您认为奖励对于激励成就的效果如何？
Or is it mainly for the readers or the viewers?
还是主要是为了读者或者观众？
They know where to go.
他们知道该去哪里。
I don’t think anybody writes a book because they might get a literary prize.
我不认为任何人写书是因为他们可能会获得文学奖。
That wouldn’t be a good enough reason to write a novel.
这还不足以成为写小说的理由。
You have to —
你必须——
But fame and fortune could be a reason, right?
但名誉和财富可能是一个原因，对吗？
Samuel Johnson at least claimed that’s why he wrote.
塞缪尔·约翰逊至少声称这就是他写作的原因。
Yes, and sometimes it reads like it.
是的，有时读起来就像这样。
I think literary fiction is not written by people who are looking for fame and fortune.
我认为文学小说不是追求名利的人写的。
The author of Milkman — she’s living in a small apartment, didn’t have very much money.
《送奶人》的作者——她住在一间小公寓里，没有多少钱。
When asked what she would do with the prize money, she said, “Pay off my debts.” Anna Burns has a vocation to write these novels.
当被问到她将用这笔奖金做什么时，她说：“还清我的债务。”安娜·伯恩斯的使命是写这些小说。
She writes them in a very particular way.
她以一种非常特殊的方式写它们。
She says they come to her.
她说他们来找她。
She waits for them, and then she writes stuff down.
她等待他们，然后写下东西。
Sometimes she knows it’s working, and sometimes it isn’t, and so on.
有时她知道它有效，有时则无效，等等。
She has a very particular picture of what she’s up to.
她对自己的所作所为有一个非常独特的认识。
I don’t think people like that are motivated by anything like this, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t anybody who’s motivated in that way.
我不认为这样的人会受到这样的事情的激励，但这并不意味着没有人会受到这种方式的激励。
I think that recognition is part of the important structure of the literary world, and prizes big and small are an important part of that.
我认为认可是文学世界重要结构的一部分，大大小小的奖项都是其中的重要组成部分。
I don’t think they’re unimportant.
我不认为它们不重要。
I think it’s good to do them.
我认为这样做很好。
I’m also the chair of the prize committee for the Berggruen Prize, which is a philosophy prize, which is a million dollars a year.
我还是伯格鲁恩奖的评奖委员会主席，这是一个哲学奖项，每年奖金一百万美元。
Which tends to go to people who’ve had a long career.
这往往适合那些拥有长期职业生涯的人。
Like Charles Taylor, right?
就像查尔斯·泰勒一样，对吧？
Like Charles Taylor or Martha Nussbaum — people who started doing what they were doing long before there were any prizes, so it can’t have motivated them.
就像查尔斯·泰勒（Charles Taylor）或玛莎·努斯鲍姆（Martha Nussbaum）一样，这些人早在获得任何奖项之前就开始做他们正在做的事情，所以这不可能激励他们。
Certainly, for the Booker, the reason I agreed to do it — and it involved flying to London once a month, and a lot of stress, and reading all those novels — is because of its function for the readers.
当然，对于布克奖来说，我同意这样做的原因——它涉及每月飞往伦敦一次，承受很大的压力，并阅读所有这些小说——是因为它对读者的功能。
What the Booker does is it creates a conversation in England over the summer about 13 books, and then people get really excited about which six are going to be picked, and there’s another conversation about the six, including conversations in which people say that the judges are idiots and they’ve missed something important, which is good because then that comes into the conversation too.
布克奖的作用是在整个夏天在英格兰引发一场关于 13 本书的对话，然后人们对哪六本将被选中感到非常兴奋，并且还有另一场关于这六本的对话，其中包括人们说评委是白痴，他们错过了一些重要的东西，这很好，因为这样也会进入对话。
And then the winner, and again, all over England, people are talking about this book, and people who wouldn’t have read it, read it.
然后是获胜者，全英格兰的人们都在谈论这本书，那些不会读这本书的人也读了它。
And since it’s a great book, that’s a good outcome.
因为这是一本好书，所以这是一个很好的结果。
Last question.
最后一个问题。
Let’s say a very smart 19-year-old comes to you, maybe at NYU, and they say, “I want to be the next generation’s version of you in some way, but of course, different.” What advice do you give them, ethical or otherwise?
假设一个非常聪明的 19 岁年轻人来找你，也许在纽约大学，他们说：“我想在某种程度上成为下一代版本的你，但当然，是不同的。”您给他们什么建议，道德上的还是其他方面的？
I think what I say is, life is not the kind of thing you can plan.
我想我想说的是，生活不是你可以计划的事情。
You can’t have a sort of life plan — which is a term some ethicists use — in your back pocket.
你的后兜里不可能有某种人生计划——这是一些伦理学家使用的术语。
I was a medical student when I went to university.
我上大学时是一名医学生。
I was going to be a doctor till I was 20.
我本来想当一名医生直到20岁。
Then I realized that I really loved philosophy, but I didn’t become a philosophy undergraduate because I thought I was going to be a philosophy graduate student.
然后我意识到我真的很喜欢哲学，但我没有成为一名哲学本科生，因为我以为我会成为一名哲学研究生。
I became a philosophy undergraduate because I wanted to do more philosophy, and then I was going to go home and figure out what to do with the rest of my life.
我成为一名哲学本科生是因为我想研究更多哲学，然后我要回家思考如何度过我的余生。
I went home, spent a year in Ghana, and the job I got was teaching philosophy at the University of Ghana.
我回到家，在加纳呆了一年，我得到的工作是在加纳大学教授哲学。
That made me realize that I liked the teaching, which I hadn’t done before, obviously, as an undergraduate.
这让我意识到我喜欢这种教学，显然，作为一名本科生，我以前从未做过这样的教学。
So I would say, be prepared to discover what’s both in you and out there in the world.
所以我想说，准备好去发现你的内在和外面的世界。
Don’t have some picture of how you want it to happen because that’s very unlikely to work.
不要清楚地知道你希望它如何发生，因为那不太可能奏效。
Be attentive to the world around you.
留意你周围的世界。
Be attentive to what you discover about yourself as you go along.
当你前进的时候，要注意你对自己的发现。
Match the two together.
将两者匹配在一起。
I didn’t set out to make any kind of impact.
我并没有打算产生任何影响。
I just was interested in the subject and wanted to do more.
我只是对这个主题感兴趣并想做更多。
Wanted to write more, wanted to think more, wanted to teach more.
想写更多，想思考更多，想教更多。
I think that too much reflection on the effects of your work, as opposed to just on the work itself, is probably not a good idea.
我认为过多地反思你的工作的影响，而不是仅仅关注工作本身，可能不是一个好主意。
You should just do it and hope that it will have uptake.
你应该去做并希望它会被接受。
And the final thing I’ll say is that there are many, many kinds of uptake.
我最后要说的是，吸收有很多种。
There are people whose uptake is almost entirely within professional philosophy, who are doing wonderful, important work, which will never be explained probably to people outside because there are things you need to know — modal logic, or tensile calculus, or something if you’re a philosopher of physics, that aren’t ever going to be explained to everybody.
有些人的吸收几乎完全在专业哲学范围内，他们正在做精彩的、重要的工作，这些工作可能永远不会向外界的人解释，因为有些东西你需要知道——模态逻辑、拉伸微积分，或者如果你是物理学哲学家的话，这些东西永远不会向每个人解释。
That work is very important, too.
这项工作也非常重要。
That sort of work — the work that isn’t easily explained to the rest of the world — is in the background of the work that does get explained more widely.
这类工作——不容易向世界其他地方解释的工作——是在确实得到更广泛解释的工作的背景下进行的。
I feel very much, as it were, standing on the shoulders of .
可以说，我感觉自己站在了……的肩膀上。
.
。
.
。
perhaps not giants, but anyway, pretty large people, who are not visible outside the subject, but without whose work .
也许不是巨人，但无论如何，都是相当大的人，他们在主题之外是不可见的，但没有他们的工作。
.
。
.
。
In other words, the work is the product of the community of scholars, and you’re just one tiny proboscis on that vast amoeba of philosophy.
换句话说，这部作品是学者群体的产物，而你只是那片巨大的哲学阿米巴原虫上的一根小小的长鼻。
And there’s stuff right in the middle, the nucleus, and in there, people are doing things that nobody’s ever going to figure out outside the amoeba itself.
中间有一些东西，即细胞核，在那里，人们正在做一些除了变形虫本身之外没有人能弄清楚的事情。
So don’t look for any particular kind of impact.
因此，不要寻找任何特定类型的影响。
Do the best work you can, and if it’s good work, it will have some kind of impact.
尽力而为，如果是好工作，就会产生某种影响。
Maybe not in the world outside philosophy, but in philosophy.
也许不是在哲学之外的世界，而是在哲学之中。
Also, hold on to the thing that should have brought you in in the first place, which is your own desire to understand things.
另外，要坚持最初应该让你进入的东西，那就是你自己对理解事物的渴望。
Always, in the end, what I’m doing, even when I’m answering those questions, is figuring out what I think, which is the only way I know how to make a contribution, just to figure out the best answer you can come up with, in the available time, to the question that presents itself to you.
最后，即使我在回答这些问题，我所做的始终是弄清楚我的想法，这是我知道如何做出贡献的唯一方式，只是为了找出你可以在可用时间内针对出现在你面前的问题提出的最佳答案。
The questions in philosophy that present themselves to me seem very urgent to me, even if some of them have answers that are for the ages.
呈现在我面前的哲学问题对我来说似乎非常紧迫，即使其中一些问题的答案是永恒的。
And I’m mostly working on them because I want to know the answer myself.
我主要研究它们是因为我想自己知道答案。
Kwame, thank you very much.
夸梅，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It was great to talk to you.
很高兴与你交谈。