Kim Bowes on the Economic Lives of Rome's Ninety Percent (Ep. 275)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I am here chatting with Kim Bowes.
今天我在这里与 Kim Bowes 聊天。
She is an archaeologist at the University of Pennsylvania, and she has a new book out called Surviving Rome: The Economic Lives of the Ninety Percent.
她是宾夕法尼亚大学的考古学家，她出版了一本新书，名为《幸存的罗马：百分之九十的经济生活》。
It has perhaps been my favorite economics book of the last year, though I think to the rest of the world it is more of a history book and an archaeology book.
这可能是我去年最喜欢的经济学书，尽管我认为对于世界其他人来说，它更像是一本历史书和考古书。
Kim is also extremely well published in the history of Christianity, religious spaces, Christian spaces, what homes were like, what rooms were like in the Roman Empire, and much more.
金在基督教历史、宗教空间、基督教空间、家庭是什么样子、罗马帝国的房间是什么样子等等方面也发表了非常多的著作。
Kim, welcome.
金，欢迎。
Thanks, Tyler.
谢谢，泰勒。
It’s great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
I have many, many questions.
我有很多很多问题。
Let’s start with houses.
我们先从房子开始吧。
If I were back in time and I visited a Roman elite house, what is it you think I or, say, you would find most surprising?
如果我回到过去，参观罗马精英住宅，你认为我或者说你会发现最令人惊讶的是什么？
I think you would find surprising the extraordinary amount of color and decoration that surrounds you.
我想你会惊讶地发现你周围有如此多的色彩和装饰。
Every single surface of that house would have been covered in some sort of decoration in ways I think we would have found garish.
那所房子的每一个表面都会被某种装饰所覆盖，我认为我们会觉得很花哨。
We would be astounded by how kitschy those houses were to our modern eye.
我们会惊讶于这些房子在我们现代人看来是多么庸俗。
The kitschy spaces, how were they treated?
俗气的空间，它们是如何处理的？
Say there were mosaic floors, is it like, “Oh, no, you can’t walk on this, it’s beautiful,” or people, the dogs would just trample on it, or how was it?
假设有马赛克地板，是不是会说“哦，不，你不能在上面行走，它很漂亮”，或者人们、狗只会踩踏它，或者怎么样？
Yes.
是的。
I think that’s another thing that might surprise us.
我认为这是另一件可能让我们感到惊讶的事情。
We would see that decoration as somehow being special and fenced off because that’s the way we manage decoration in our own spaces, but not in that world.
我们会认为这种装饰在某种程度上是特殊的并且被隔离开来，因为这是我们在自己的空间中管理装饰的方式，但不是在那个世界中。
Because everything is encrusted with some sort of decoration, everything is used in ways that I think would really surprise us, too.
因为所有东西都镶嵌着某种装饰，所以所有东西的使用方式我认为也会让我们感到非常惊讶。
Reminds me of my house, in fact.
事实上，让我想起了我的房子。
Now, could you do business in these homes?
现在，你可以在这些房子里做生意吗？
You’d have a few people come by, there’d be a room.
会有几个人过来，就会有一个房间。
That’s what they’re built for.
这就是它们的目的。
They’re built for business.
它们是为商业而设计的。
I think that’s another thing that would surprise us most about this world is the idea of going off to work is entirely probably a 19th-century idea.
我认为这个世界上最让我们惊讶的另一件事是去工作的想法完全可能是 19 世纪的想法。
Prior to that, for all of human history, work was in the space of the home.
在此之前，在整个人类历史上，工作都是在家里进行的。
The Roman house, particularly the Roman elite house, is a machine for the production of social status.
罗马家族，特别是罗马精英家族，是生产社会地位的机器。
That status meant a space to do deals, to meet your clients, to show off things that we would never dream of showing off—members of our family, the most intimate aspects of our daily lives—all of that is literally built into the fabric of a Roman house.
这种地位意味着一个进行交易、会见客户、炫耀我们从未梦想过的东西的空间——我们的家庭成员、我们日常生活中最亲密的方面——所有这些实际上都内置于罗马房屋的结构中。
You just walk to your boss’s house.
你只要走到你老板家就可以了。
There’s no GPS.
没有 GPS。
Are there even addresses?
还有地址吗？
Are there even addresses?
还有地址吗？
Now, that’s a great question.
现在，这是一个很好的问题。
Not in the way that we seem to use them, no.
不是我们使用它们的方式，不是。
It’s like latter 20th-century Tokyo.
就像20世纪后期的东京。
You just have to get there somehow.
你只需要以某种方式到达那里。
You just have to get there somehow.
你只需要以某种方式到达那里。
You know what people use?
你知道人们用什么吗？
They use other humans.
他们利用其他人类。
That’s how you navigate your way around an ancient city, is you ask people.
如果你问人们，这就是你在一座古城中导航的方式。
Of course, ancient cities are a lot smaller than our own cities, so the chances are, moving around in a city, you know people.
当然，古城比我们自己的城市小很多，所以很有可能，在城市里走动，你就认识人。
Rome is the largest city potentially on the planet at the time, at a million people.
罗马是当时地球上可能最大的城市，拥有一百万人口。
Most Roman cities are probably 2,000, 3,000 people.
大多数罗马城市可能有 2,000、3,000 人。
Nothing for us more than a large village, so you find your way around by using other humans.
对我们来说，没有什么比一个大村庄更好的了，所以你可以通过利用其他人类来找到路。
Here’s a very crude, real estate-influenced question.
这是一个非常粗略的、受房地产影响的问题。
There’s a home for five people.
有一个可以住五个人的家。
How many bathrooms does it have?
它有多少间浴室？
Probably none.
可能没有。
None?
没有任何？
Probably none.
可能没有。
What do you do for, you know?
你做什么，你知道吗？
Pots.
盆子。
Romans are great users of pots for that sort of activity.
罗马人非常擅长使用盆来进行此类活动。
Of course, there are public latrines that you could go out and use, but even those are not present in an awful lot of cities as far as we can tell.
当然，有一些公共厕所可供您外出使用，但据我们所知，很多城市都没有这些公共厕所。
Of course, they called these public latrines after the Roman emperor who started to charge for using them.
当然，他们以罗马皇帝的名字命名这些公共厕所，罗马皇帝开始收费。
If you can imagine naming public latrines after any of our American presidents.
如果你能想象以我们任何一位美国总统的名字命名公共厕所。
Do you know what the charge was?
你知道罪名是什么吗？
No. That’s the sort of information I’m really interested in, but no.
不。这是我真正感兴趣的信息，但不是。
Let’s say it’s 3:00 a.m., and I do something in my pot.
假设现在是凌晨 3:00，我在锅里做了一些事情。
How does that then connect to public waterworks, if ever?
如果有的话，如何连接到公共自来水厂？
In a city that has a robust public waterworks system like we now know Pompeii had, you can go out and chuck that stuff in the drain.
在一个拥有强大公共供水系统的城市，就像我们现在知道的庞贝一样，你可以出去把那些东西扔进排水沟。
Those cities that didn’t have them—and I think we’re amazingly ill-informed about this really critical question—then it just winds up in the street.
那些没有它们的城市——我认为我们对这个真正关键的问题知之甚少——然后它就会流落街头。
How clean is that drainage system?
排水系统有多干净？
Say you and I are walking around Pompeii or parts of Rome, are we having to hold our noses, or is it like a city in India today, or what would you compare it to?
假设你和我在庞贝城或罗马的部分地区散步，我们是否必须捂着鼻子，或者它像今天印度的一座城市，或者你会把它与什么进行比较？
What’s your sense?
你的感觉是什么？
Of course, Indian cities are moving very quickly to clean up their hygiene.
当然，印度城市正在迅速采取行动来清理卫生。
You’re absolutely holding your noses.
你绝对是捂着鼻子。
This is, I think, what’s really interesting about the Roman world.
我认为，这就是罗马世界真正有趣的地方。
On the one hand, it has some of the most advanced, and they put so much energy and treasure into things like public infrastructure, like sewers and drains.
一方面，它拥有一些最先进的设施，他们在下水道和排水沟等公共基础设施上投入了大量的精力和财富。
At the same time, these are incredibly dense, unprecedentedly dense spaces, so getting on top of the poop problem is an insurmountable problem.
与此同时，这些空间极其密集，前所未有，因此解决粪便问题是一个无法克服的问题。
If a visitor, if any of your listeners goes to Pompeii, you will notice that there are stepping stones to get across the street.
如果一个访客，如果你的任何听众去庞贝古城，你会注意到有垫脚石可以过马路。
This is to keep you out of all of the refuse in the street, and this is a city that has really good public sanitation.
这是为了让你远离街上的所有垃圾，而且这是一个公共卫生状况非常好的城市。
It’s just not quite good enough.
只是还不够好。
In an elite home.
在一个精英家庭里。
Are there pets?
有宠物吗？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
They have dogs, and of course—famously, both from actual images and from the famous story of the visit to this freedman, Trimalchio, and his dinner party—you might even be greeted by an image of a dog instead of an actual dog that says literally in Latin, “Caue canem,” “Beware of the dog.” You would have dogs, and you would have fake dogs.
他们养狗，当然，众所周知，无论是真实的图像，还是拜访这位自由民特里马尔基奥和他的晚宴的著名故事，你甚至可能会看到一只狗的图像，而不是一只真正的狗，上面用拉丁语字面意思是“Caue canem”，“当心狗”。你会有狗，也会有假狗。
Only dogs or other pets, too?
只有狗还是其他宠物？
Anyone had a pig?
有人养过猪吗？
They kept animals in, if we’re talking about elite homes in the city, this is something that we’re starting to learn about, how much urban agriculture there is.
他们饲养动物，如果我们谈论的是城市中的精英住宅，这是我们开始了解的，有多少城市农业。
People might keep small animals.
人们可能会饲养小动物。
Pigs are good.
猪是好东西。
Chickens, strangely.
鸡，很奇怪。
They don’t eat chickens as much as you’d think they would.
他们并不像你想象的那样吃鸡。
They’re noisy.
他们很吵。
They wake you up in the morning, right?
他们早上叫醒你，对吗？
It’s true.
这是真的。
I just don’t get it, though.
但我就是不明白。
There’s so much protein, they’re little.
蛋白质太多了，但它们却很少。
You can stick them in a small space.
您可以将它们粘贴在狭小的空间中。
Anyway, Romans are amazing under-eaters of chicken in ways we don’t understand.
无论如何，罗马人对鸡肉的吃量令人惊叹，但我们无法理解。
Strangely, not so much in the cat universe.
奇怪的是，在猫的世界里却没有那么多。
More dogs than cats.
狗比猫多。
In fact, very few cats do we find.
事实上，我们发现的猫很少。
We would call it zoning.
我们称之为分区。
Do they have something comparable?
他们有可比性吗？
A bit of a controversy, really.
确实有点争议。
For the most part, no, they don’t have zoning.
在大多数情况下，不，他们没有分区。
Elite houses and the houses of the 90 percent all rub cheek by jowl up against one another in these cities.
在这些城市里，精英住宅和90%的住宅都紧挨着。
What there are, are places that have more public-type buildings than private-type buildings.
有些地方的公共建筑多于私人建筑。
You have to remember, too, Tyler, that the only city that we’ve excavated enough of to even remotely begin to answer these questions is Pompeii and, to a lesser extent, Herculaneum and maybe a handful of other places.
泰勒，你也必须记住，我们挖掘的唯一一个足以开始回答这些问题的城市是庞贝，在较小程度上是赫库兰尼姆，也许还有其他一些地方。
I’m trying to answer your questions on the basis of not very good data.
我试图根据不太好的数据来回答你的问题。
In general, from what we can tell, not a lot of zoning.
一般来说，据我们所知，分区并不多。
But you know better than anyone else I might ask, right?
但我可能会问你比任何人都清楚，对吧？
Do Jewish homes use space differently at all, or it’s just the same?
犹太家庭对空间的使用完全不同，还是完全一样？
Jewish homes?
犹太人的家园？
Yes.
是的。
The first question you ask is, how do you identify a Jewish home?
您问的第一个问题是，如何识别犹太人的家？
Can you?
你可以吗？
Not easily.
不容易。
The best way you’re probably going to do it is excavate houses in places that we know are majority Jewish populations.
最好的方法可能是在我们知道犹太人占多数的地方挖掘房屋。
Now, there is one thing that you might use in such areas, which is the presence or absence of a mikveh, a ritual bath.
现在，您可以在这些区域使用一件事，即是否存在 mikveh（一种仪式性沐浴）。
There’s a lot of controversy about how you differentiate one of these ritual baths versus, say, a bath in general or some sort of foot pool or whatever.
关于如何区分这些仪式沐浴与一般沐浴或某种足浴池或其他什么，存在很多争议。
Jewish houses, I would say, are distinguished mostly by the presence or absence of one of those ritual baths.
我想说，犹太房屋的主要区别在于是否有这些仪式浴室之一。
Again, if you’re a poor or working Jewish family, you probably don’t have one of those anyway.
再说一次，如果你是一个贫穷或工作的犹太家庭，你可能根本就没有这些。
Other than that, they’re pretty much indistinguishable as far as we can tell.
除此之外，据我们所知，它们几乎没有区别。
On what early Roman Christians actually believed
关于早期罗马基督徒的实际信仰
When it comes to Roman Empire Christianity, say after Constantine, what would surprise us most about their practices?
当谈到罗马帝国的基督教时，比如君士坦丁之后，他们的做法最让我们惊讶的是什么？
I think what would surprise me most, and many of my scholarly colleagues, is how few Christians there are.
我认为最让我和我的许多学术同事感到惊讶的是基督徒的数量如此之少。
We somehow think that Constantine declares his support for this religion, and then boom, everyone’s Christian.
我们不知何故认为康斯坦丁宣布了他对这个宗教的支持，然后繁荣，每个人都是基督徒。
In fact, of course, most people aren’t Christian for a really long time.
当然，事实上，大多数人在很长一段时间内都不是基督徒。
Since you were asking about rich people, it takes a good 50 years, if not longer, for rich people to really say, “Okay, we’re going to go along with this new religion.”
既然你问的是富人，那么富人要花足足 50 年（如果不是更长的话）才能真正说：“好吧，我们将接受这个新宗教。”
I think that’s one of the biggest things that would have surprised us in a post-Constantinian world, is how few Christians there really are, especially when you went to the countryside.
我认为，在后君士坦丁时代的世界中，最让我们惊讶的事情之一就是基督徒的数量实在是太少了，尤其是当你去乡村的时候。
You went to the countryside, you find very few Christians at all for at least 200 years.
你到乡村去，你会发现至少 200 年来很少有基督徒。
It takes a long time for people to be convinced of what’s still a new religion.
人们需要很长时间才能相信这个新宗教。
Do we have a sense of what they actually believed?
我们了解他们真正相信的是什么吗？
Is it something they went along with, or say they had an active belief in the Trinity, or what did it mean to them to be Christian?
他们是否认同这一点，或者说他们积极信仰三位一体，或者成为基督徒对他们意味着什么？
I think if you had asked that question 20, 30 years ago, we could have given you a really clear answer.
我想如果你在 20、30 年前问这个问题，我们可以给你一个非常明确的答案。
They believed in supporting members of their community.
他们相信支持社区成员。
They believed in the Trinity.
他们相信三位一体。
They believed above all—and this is, I think, probably still we think this—they believed that their God had special powers vis-a-vis what would happen to them after they died.
他们首先相信——我想，这可能仍然是我们的想法——他们相信他们的上帝对他们死后会发生的事情有特殊的能力。
That they would experience a bodily resurrection.
他们会经历身体的复活。
That was new in the world, the idea that you would actually come back after you died, your actual physical body.
这对世界来说是新鲜事，你死后实际上会回来，你的实际身体。
This is something that the Christian God believed and had proven through miracles like the raising of Lazarus in ways that were very and really quite unfamiliar in a Greco-Roman world and even in a Jewish world.
这是基督教上帝所相信的，并通过奇迹证明了这一点，例如拉撒路的复活，这在希腊罗马世界甚至犹太世界中都是非常非常不熟悉的。
Tyler, I think one of the big changes that we’ve realized as we’ve looked more critically at the sources over the last 20, 30, 40 years is that what bishops wanted Christians to believe versus what Christian ordinary people actually believed were two very different things.
泰勒，我认为，当我们在过去 20 年、30 年、40 年更加批判性地审视信息来源时，我们意识到的重大变化之一是，主教希望基督徒相信的内容与普通基督徒实际相信的内容是两件截然不同的事情。
I think that Christians, for many centuries afterwards, wore many hats.
我认为基督徒在之后的许多世纪里都戴着很多帽子。
When they went to church and when they picked up the pieces of the scriptures that they could read or have read to them, they would avow a belief or a set of practices, probably more likely, that we would identify as Christian.
当他们去教堂并拿起他们可以阅读或已经读给他们听的经文片段时，他们会宣誓一种信仰或一套实践，很可能是我们认为是基督徒的信仰或一套实践。
Then the other six days of the week, they might do things that were entirely different.
然后一周的其他六天，他们可能会做完全不同的事情。
This really worried Christian bishops that Christians weren’t behaving in ways that looked differently Christian because I think people kept on doing what they had always done.
这确实让基督教主教感到担忧，因为基督徒的行为方式看起来与基督徒不同，因为我认为人们继续做他们一直做的事情。
To deploy a much-abused term, but the pagans of that time, did they believe in something concrete, or they’re just superstitious, they’re going along with different rituals, different festivals, or they have these things, “Here’s my god, my gods,” and they actually believe, to ask the Paul Veyne-like question?
用一个经常被滥用的术语来说，当时的异教徒，他们是否相信某种具体的东西，或者他们只是迷信，他们遵循不同的仪式，不同的节日，或者他们有这些东西，“这是我的神，我的神”，他们真的相信，问保罗·维恩式的问题？
We know that people in the Greco-Roman world who believed in the traditional pantheon of deities above all were less interested in belief and more interested in what you did.
我们知道，希腊罗马世界的人们首先相信传统的万神殿，但他们对信仰不太感兴趣，而对你所做的事情更感兴趣。
They were practisers.
他们是实践者。
They insisted and thought it was really important to behave toward the gods in specific ways so that the gods would in turn—this is a quid pro quo backscratching world—the gods would do to them unto what they had done to the gods.
他们坚持认为，以特定的方式对待众神非常重要，这样众神就会反过来——这是一个交换条件的逆流世界——众神也会像他们对众神所做的那样对待他们。
They would ask, I think much less, what do you believe?
他们会问，我想得更少，你相信什么？
That being said, by the time we get to the end of our period, say the third century or the fourth century, pagans live in a world in which lots of people are asking questions about belief.
话虽这么说，到我们这个时代的末期，比如第三世纪或第四世纪，异教徒生活在一个很多人都在问信仰问题的世界。
They are starting to wrestle with questions about belief.
他们开始努力解决有关信仰的问题。
They are particularly interested in people, holy men if you like, who seem to have special powers.
他们对人特别感兴趣，如果你喜欢的话，可以是圣人，他们似乎拥有特殊的力量。
There are lots of questions about what kind of powers these people have, people who can levitate, people who can live for years without eating.
关于这些人拥有什么样的力量，可以悬浮的人，可以不吃东西活多年的人，有很多疑问。
These weren’t just Christians who claimed these powers or Jewish holy men.
这些人不仅仅是声称拥有这些权力的基督徒或犹太圣人。
There were all kinds of holy men out there in the marketplace of religion who claimed to have these powers.
宗教市场上有各种各样的圣人，他们声称拥有这些力量。
From a world in which mostly you would be asking, “What do I need to do,” I think increasingly people were starting to ask, “What do I believe?”
在一个大多数人都会问“我需要做什么”的世界里，我认为越来越多的人开始问“我相信什么？”
For the Christians, do they have altars in their homes?
对于基督徒来说，他们家里有祭坛吗？
Do they have altars in their homes?
他们家里有祭坛吗？
A vexed and interesting question.
一个令人烦恼又有趣的问题。
In the beginning, I suspect not, but because they live in a world in which all religion, if it’s practiced correctly, has some sort of material form.
一开始，我怀疑不是，而是因为他们生活在一个所有宗教，如果正确实践的话，都有某种物质形式的世界。
You don’t just sit and do religion in your head in the Greco-Roman world because the Greco-Roman world, as we were just talking about a minute ago, is full of stuff.
在希腊罗马世界中，你不能只是坐在脑子里思考宗教，因为希腊罗马世界，正如我们刚才谈到的，充满了东西。
The second that there start to be enough Christians and they are really integrated into their communities, because they are, they start to have a material piece of their religion.
第二，开始有足够的基督徒，他们真正融入了他们的社区，因为他们确实融入了，他们开始拥有他们宗教的物质部分。
They might not have an altar, but they might have a lamp that has a Christian symbol on it.
他们可能没有祭坛，但可能有一盏上面有基督教符号的灯。
They have something that is a direction of their worship, and that is a thing that expresses their religious identity, and they start to have them pretty early, as far as we can tell.
他们有一些东西是他们崇拜的方向，这是表达他们宗教身份的东西，据我们所知，他们很早就开始拥有它们。
They don’t wear crosses around their necks or in any other way?
他们脖子上不戴十字架或以其他方式佩戴吗？
The cross is a latecomer to Christian identity.
十字架是基督教身份的后来者。
They have other ways of expressing their religious belonging.
他们有其他方式表达他们的宗教归属感。
Remember, the earliest cross in the Christian world isn’t a cross like we think of it, as a cross like this.
请记住，基督教世界最早的十字架并不是我们想象的那样的十字架，像这样的十字架。
It’s the initials of Christ, which is a Greek Chi and a Rho—Christos—that are set in an emblem that looks like an X and a P superimposed.
这是 Christ 的首字母缩写，即希腊语 Chi 和 Rho（Christos），它们镶嵌在一个看起来像叠加的 X 和 P 的徽章中。
That’s the earliest, if you like, symbolic representation of Christianity.
如果你愿意的话，这是基督教最早的象征性表现。
Not the cross.
不是十字架。
Say, back then, there’s a Christian private cult, the private cult aspect of it, what would that be organized around?
比如说，当时有一个基督教私人邪教，它的私人邪教方面，它会围绕什么组织？
Is it a charismatic leader, is it some belief, or is it what part of town you lived in?
是一个有魅力的领导者，是某种信仰，还是你居住的城镇的哪个部分？
Early Christianity is entirely private because it can’t be public, in the sense that it is not officially approved by the Roman state.
早期基督教完全是私人的，因为它不能公开，因为它没有得到罗马国家的正式批准。
That being said, at least by the time we get to the third century, if you traveled out to the borders of the empire in Syria and went to the town of Dura-Europos, you would find a thriving Christian meeting group of probably, who knows, 20, 30 people who are meeting in a private house.
话虽这么说，至少到了三世纪，如果你前往叙利亚帝国的边境，前往杜拉-欧罗波斯镇，你会发现一个蓬勃发展的基督教聚会团体，可能有 20、30 人，谁知道呢，他们在一所私人住宅里聚会。
Their rituals, from what we can tell, they are practicing baptism because they built themselves a little baptistry.
据我们所知，他们的仪式是进行洗礼，因为他们为自己建造了一个小洗礼堂。
They almost certainly are reading the scriptures with each other because they have a long space seemingly for doing that and praying together.
几乎可以肯定，他们正在互相阅读经文，因为他们似乎有很长的空间可以一起阅读经文和祈祷。
If you walked by on the street outside on your way to the mithraeum, which was next door, or to the Jewish synagogue, which was further down the street—all these buildings are in the same street—you would know exactly what was going on in there.
如果您在去隔壁的密特拉寺或沿着街道更远的犹太教堂的路上经过外面的街道，所有这些建筑物都在同一条街上，您就会确切地知道那里发生了什么。
Are they private?
他们是私人的吗？
Not by our definition of private, but by the Roman state’s definition of private, they are, because they’re not an officially approved religion.
不是按照我们对私人的定义，而是按照罗马国家对私人的定义，它们是，因为它们不是官方认可的宗教。
I think the thing that we ought to be asking is, in this world in which Christians are not an officially approved religion—and there’s a lot of stories about them being persecuted—and yet when we can see them archaeologically, which admittedly is rare, they are not hiding.
我认为我们应该问的是，在这个基督徒不是官方认可的宗教的世界里，有很多关于他们受到迫害的故事，但当我们可以从考古学上看到他们时，这确实是罕见的，他们并没有隐藏。
Everyone knows what they’re doing.
每个人都知道自己在做什么。
All the new evidence and work on the catacombs has also suggested that the catacombs are filled with people buried.
所有关于地下墓穴的新证据和工作也表明地下墓穴里埋满了人。
People are buried in the catacombs of all different religious persuasions, and they’re all buried one right next to each other.
人们被埋葬在各种不同宗教信仰的地下墓穴中，而且他们都被埋在一个紧挨着的地方。
No one is hiding their religious persuasion from one another.
没有人互相隐瞒自己的宗教信仰。
To the extent that these folks are practicing private religion, I think it just makes us ask what we think private means.
就这些人信奉私人宗教而言，我认为这只是让我们问我们认为私人意味着什么。
Post-Constantine, are there Christian mausoleums?
君士坦丁之后，还有基督教陵墓吗？
Yes, and we can identify them through the presence of some of these insignia or sarcophagi and other things that have Christian stories on them.
是的，我们可以通过一些徽章或石棺以及其他有基督教故事的东西来识别他们。
Yes, there are.
是的，有。
Very often, if you’re in the catacombs, right next to tombs of pagans or Jews.
很多时候，如果你在地下墓穴中，就在异教徒或犹太人的坟墓旁边。
On Roman economic thought
论罗马经济思想
Here’s a question I’ve wrestled with for a long time.
这是我长期以来一直苦苦思索的一个问题。
I’ve never made progress on it.
我在这方面从未取得任何进展。
As you know, in your own book, Surviving Rome, you show the Romans had quite sophisticated and advanced economic lives.
如您所知，在您自己的《幸存的罗马》一书中，您展示了罗马人拥有相当复杂和先进的经济生活。
Why is it the Romans never had anything resembling economic reasoning?
为什么罗马人从来没有类似经济推理的东西？
You can read any Roman text, and no one sits down and says, “Well, here’s how supply and demand work,” but there are advanced contributions to many other areas, right?
你可以阅读任何罗马文本，没有人坐下来说，“好吧，这就是供需的运作方式”，但在许多其他领域都有先进的贡献，对吗？
Is supply and demand that tough an idea?
供给和需求是一个很难的想法吗？
They have absolutely an idea of supply and demand.
他们对供给和需求有绝对的了解。
They understand, and you see this never laid out in those terms, but they absolutely understand that at the harvest, when there’s a large supply of whatever’s been harvested, the prices go down.
他们明白，你看这从来没有用这些术语来表述过，但他们绝对明白，在收获时，当收获的任何东西都有大量供应时，价格就会下降。
They know this for sure, and they respond, and they make planning on the basis of this basic understanding.
他们肯定知道这一点，他们会做出反应，并根据这种基本了解制定计划。
I think, though, what you’re asking, Tyler, is what we have a harder time seeing is them making future planning around profit in a quantified way that we would understand as part and parcel of an economic thinking that involves supply and demand.
不过，我认为，泰勒，你问的是我们更难看到的是，他们以量化的方式围绕利润制定未来规划，我们将其理解为涉及供需的经济思维的重要组成部分。
There’s nothing like Euclid, right, or even Plato from ancient Athens, who defined the terms of philosophy.
没有什么比欧几里得（右）甚至古雅典的柏拉图更能定义哲学术语。
Ancient Rome had no Adam Smith, right?
古罗马没有亚当·斯密，对吗？
Nothing remotely close to him.
没有任何东西离他很近。
No, that’s correct.
不，这是正确的。
That doesn’t mean that they don’t have economic thinking.
这并不意味着他们没有经济思维。
They just have economic thinking that doesn’t look like our economic thinking.
他们只是有与我们的经济思维不同的经济思维。
They absolutely make planning around the assumption of supply and demand.
他们绝对是围绕供需假设来制定计划的。
They’re clearly interested in profit.
他们显然对利润感兴趣。
What they don’t have, and I think this is really what you’re getting at, is that they don’t have an organized, systematized way of thinking about economic activity that is discrete and separate from other kinds of activity, and laid out as a formal branch of reasoning.
他们没有，我认为这正是你所理解的，是他们没有一种有组织的、系统化的方式来思考经济活动，这种方式与其他类型的活动是离散的和分离的，并被布置为推理的正式分支。
This is, I think, what’s thrown us for a long time.
我想，这就是困扰我们很长时间的问题。
We thought, because there’s no obvious Adam Smith, that they had no economic thinking at all, which isn’t true, but it requires that we accept a whole spectrum of economic thinking that looks different from our own.
我们认为，因为没有明显的亚当·斯密，他们根本没有经济思想，这不是事实，但这要求我们接受一整套看起来与我们自己的经济思想不同的经济思想。
On Roman banking and money practices
论罗马银行业和货币实践
Most of the currency in use, it’s bronze.
大多数使用的货币是青铜。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
For ordinary daily use, yes.
对于普通日常使用来说，是的。
Does gold have any role at all, or it’s too valuable, and the pieces would be too small?
黄金到底有没有作用，或者它太值钱了，而且碎片太小了？
We used to think that it was a ceremonial coin or a collecting coin, or it was a wealth-saving coin, but the amazing new work that’s been done on Pompeii, where we can see gold coins actually in cash boxes and collections of coins that are being used for day-to-day use, we can see gold as a coin of day-to-day use.
我们曾经认为它是一种礼仪硬币或收藏硬币，或者它是一种节省财富的硬币，但是在庞贝城完成的令人惊叹的新工作，我们可以在钱箱和日常使用的硬币收藏中看到金币，我们可以将黄金视为日常使用的硬币。
Some colleagues of mine are doing new work, statistically trying to recreate how many gold coins were circulating in the Roman Empire, and it’s a lot.
我的一些同事正在做新的工作，试图从统计上重新计算罗马帝国流通的金币数量，而且数量很多。
Gold turns out to be, I think, probably more important than we’ve given it credit for.
我认为，事实证明黄金可能比我们想象的更重要。
Say, when the government is clipping the silver coins and lowering their silver content, as we now know in economic theory, this will imply at least some inflationary pressure.
比如说，当政府削减银币并降低银含量时，正如我们现在在经济理论中所知，这至少意味着一些通货膨胀压力。
Are there Roman writers who understood that and laid it out, or they’re just vague public complaints about government clipping the coins?
是否有罗马作家理解这一点并将其阐述出来，或者他们只是对政府削减硬币的模糊公开抱怨？
They’re not so much clipping them as they are minting them with less silver, which amounts to the same thing.
与其说他们剪裁了银币，不如说他们用更少的银铸造了银币，这实际上是一样的。
It’s just a little bit classier and harder to detect.
它只是有点经典并且更难被发现。
Absolutely, people know that they’re doing this.
当然，人们知道他们正在这样做。
What I think is most interesting and what we’re all still wrestling with is, from even before Nero onwards, Roman emperors recognized the advantage to the fisc to basically producing coins with less silver.
我认为最有趣的也是我们仍在努力解决的问题是，甚至在尼禄之前，罗马皇帝就认识到用更少的白银生产硬币对财政来说是有好处的。
Then they start to have silver problems, and they start really pulling the silver out of their coins, and nobody cares.
然后他们开始出现白银问题，他们开始真正从硬币中提取白银，但没有人在乎。
That is to say, people care, and they notice, but the convenience of the Roman coin of the realm, the denarius, which is made with silver, outweighs—that’s a little bit of a pun—the actual silver content of that coin, and so people are willing to just suck it up and deal, and they keep using it.
也就是说，人们关心并且注意到，但是该国的罗马硬币（用银制成的第纳里乌斯）的便利性超过了（这有点双关语）该硬币的实际银含量，因此人们愿意吸收它并进行交易，并且他们继续使用它。
There is inflation, and inflation, we can now tell, thanks to some great papyri from Egypt, trends upwards very slowly over the first century, the second century, the third century, but it’s not proportional to the amount of silver that’s being pulled out of the coins.
存在通货膨胀，而我们现在可以看出，多亏了埃及的一些伟大的纸莎草纸，通货膨胀在第一世纪、第二世纪、第三世纪的上升趋势非常缓慢，但它与从硬币中提取的白银数量不成正比。
People basically still have trust in their coinage, which really shows the degree to which the state has convinced people, simply by supporting ordinary people’s coin use, that the coins work and that they’re going to back their coins, even though they’re slightly pulling the silver out.
人们基本上仍然对他们的铸币有信心，这确实表明国家仅仅通过支持普通人使用铸币就说服了人们，这些铸币是有效的，并且他们会支持他们的铸币，尽管他们稍微抽出了白银。
Why was there so much decentralized money lending?
为什么出现如此多的去中心化借贷？
You would think that banks would have economies of scale, offer better terms, just like I wouldn’t borrow money from my friends, I would go to the bank.
你可能会认为银行会有规模经济，提供更好的条件，就像我不会向朋友借钱，我会去银行。
Why doesn’t the Roman Empire evolve that way?
为什么罗马帝国没有朝这个方向发展呢？
The Roman Empire confuses us, I think, because on the one hand, it looks like a really big state that ought to do things that big states do.
我认为罗马帝国让我们感到困惑，因为一方面，它看起来像一个真正的大国，应该做大国应该做的事情。
The Roman big state is really a mask for an empire of friends and family.
罗马大国实际上是一个由朋友和家人组成的帝国的面具。
You borrow money from friends and family.
您向朋友和家人借钱。
Banks, such as they exist, are really nothing more than friends and family, so even when you have actual banks, they tend to be largely constituted by a single family.
银行，就像它们存在的那样，实际上只不过是朋友和家人，所以即使你有真正的银行，它们也往往主要由一个家庭组成。
The difference that you’re making between borrowing from a bank and borrowing from your family is much less clear-cut in a world in which the bank is your family, or the bank is a family that is friends of yours.
在银行是你的家人，或者银行是你的朋友的家人的世界里，你从银行借款和从家人借款之间的区别就不那么明显了。
It’s not that Romans don’t use banks, they do use banks.
罗马人并不是不使用银行，而是他们确实使用银行。
We can see the most often wealthier Romans using banks.
我们可以看到最富有的罗马人最常使用银行。
It’s a lot harder to see the 90 percent using banks, and they seem to more often default to the immediate circle of people that they know, which again, it’s not such a huge distinction.
看到 90% 的人使用银行要困难得多，而且他们似乎更经常默认他们认识的直接圈子，这又不是一个巨大的区别。
In a world in which there’s no FDIC, in which the bank isn’t guaranteed and protected by the state in the way in which our banks are, the distinction between bank and family, bank and friends, is much less clear.
在一个没有联邦存款保险公司（FDIC）的世界里，银行不像我们的银行那样受到国家的担保和保护，银行和家人、银行和朋友之间的区别就不太清楚了。
Still, in Renaissance Europe, there are plenty of banks which are large.
尽管如此，在文艺复兴时期的欧洲，仍然有许多大型银行。
They might be family-based, such as in Florence, but they still were proper commercial banks.
它们可能是以家族为基础的，比如在佛罗伦萨，但它们仍然是真正的商业银行。
Is it the case Rome had these incredible roads, aqueducts, a whole system of empire, but didn’t have ordinary banks for the 90 percent?
罗马是否拥有令人难以置信的道路、渡槽和整个帝国体系，但 90% 的人却没有普通银行？
Well, my colleague, Ed Cohen, is really going to disagree with me about this.
好吧，我的同事埃德·科恩在这一点上确实不同意我的观点。
He’s the person who’s thought most carefully about banking more in the Athenian Greek world than in the Roman world, for which, to be honest, we have quite a bit less evidence.
他是对雅典希腊世界银行业务比罗马世界银行业务考虑得最仔细的人，老实说，我们对此的证据要少得多。
It’s very hard to find the ordinary person using banks.
很难找到使用银行的普通人。
Now, I would say it’s not quite so easy to see ordinary people using Florentine banks either.
现在，我想说普通人使用佛罗伦萨银行也不是那么容易。
Florentine banks, we mostly find larger merchants using.
佛罗伦萨的银行，我们大多发现较大的商人使用。
Certainly, we can see merchants using banks.
当然，我们可以看到商家使用银行。
We also see merchants using things like auction dealers and entities that are functioning a little bit like banks.
我们还看到商家使用拍卖经销商和功能有点像银行的实体。
The important records that we have from Pompeii, from the auctioneer, man of affairs, Caecilius Iucundus, is a nice example of someone who isn’t quite a banker in the way that you are imagining, but is facilitating monetary exchange by both lending money at mostly short term and bringing people together, which is some of the most important things that banks do, but we wouldn’t quite call them a bank.
我们从庞贝古城获得的重要记录，来自拍卖师、实务人物凯西利乌斯·尤昆杜斯 (Caecilius Iucundus)，这是一个很好的例子，他并不完全是你想象的那样的银行家，而是通过主要提供短期贷款和将人们聚集在一起来促进货币兑换，这是银行所做的一些最重要的事情，但我们不太称其为银行。
I think it’s another way, Tyler, in which trying to translate our modern terms on into an ancient world that doesn’t quite operate the same way, but nonetheless manages to do the same things and get those things done, causes a little bit of disconnect.
我认为这是另一种方式，泰勒，试图将我们的现代术语翻译成一个古代世界，虽然它的运作方式不太相同，但仍然设法做同样的事情并完成这些事情，导致了一点脱节。
Are there forward markets back then, if I may use that term?
如果我可以用这个词的话，当时还有远期市场吗？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
Morris Silver has argued that we can see Roman people essentially doing futures trading, mostly around agricultural surplus.
莫里斯·西尔弗（Morris Silver）认为，我们可以看到罗马人本质上是在进行期货交易，主要围绕农业剩余进行。
I argued in that book that we all can almost see the poorest of the poor.
我在那本书中指出，我们几乎都能看到穷人中最穷的人。
These are some mine workers in Egypt, who are basically using their wages—or not even their wages, their rations—in a way that almost looks like futures.
这些是埃及的一些矿工，他们基本上以一种看起来几乎像期货的方式使用他们的工资——或者甚至不是他们的工资、他们的口粮。
People could absolutely disagree with me about this, and I would probably accept it.
人们可能完全不同意我的观点，但我可能会接受。
Future thinking doesn’t quite look like what we would imagine it to be.
未来的思维并不完全像我们想象的那样。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
We have a case of an Egyptian shepherd.
我们有一个埃及牧羊人的案例。
He’s too poor to own any sheep, but he leases his sheep.
他太穷了，买不起羊，但他租了羊。
Then he sells his sheep’s future wool before he sheared it at a rate that’s quite profitable to him.
然后，他在剪羊毛之前将羊未来的羊毛出售，价格对他来说非常有利可图。
The question is, is this person really thinking in a futures sort of way, or do they just not have the money to pay the lease on their sheep, and so they’re selling the sheep’s wool in anticipation to get the money in advance, which is simply basically a loan.
问题是，这个人是否真的以期货的方式思考，或者他们只是没有钱支付羊的租金，所以他们出售羊毛以期提前拿到钱，这基本上就是一笔贷款。
It’s hard to know which of these is really—
很难知道其中哪一个是真的——
It’s both.
两者都是。
Loans and forward markets can be isomorphic, right?
贷款和远期市场可以是同构的，对吧？
Exactly.
确切地。
They can.
他们可以。
That’s true.
这是真的。
In a way, the debate about these issues is, I think, probably ancient historians’ discomfort with the idea of the modern notion of futures as applied to an ancient world.
在某种程度上，我认为，关于这些问题的争论可能是古代历史学家对现代未来概念应用于古代世界的想法的不满。
For you, what is the biggest puzzle about the Roman economy?
对您来说，罗马经济最大的困惑是什么？
Gosh, that’s a really good question.
天哪，这真是个好问题。
I’m currently really puzzled about how Roman money worked, if I can go back to another question that you asked.
我现在真的很困惑罗马货币是如何运作的，如果我可以回到你问的另一个问题的话。
Sure.
当然。
What do you mean by that?
你这是什么意思？
I said that Romans basically trusted the state to produce money that had value, even in the demonstrable face of its opposite, namely that the Roman state was also pulling silver out of their coinage.
我说过，罗马人基本上相信国家能够生产有价值的货币，即使表面上有明显的相反之处，即罗马国家也在从他们的铸币中提取白银。
At some point after the period that I talk about in my book, in the later third century, they seem to stop trusting the state, and there is massive inflation.
在我在书中谈到的时期之后的某个时刻，即第三世纪后期，他们似乎不再信任国家，出现了大规模的通货膨胀。
That inflation comes in waves over a period of a century through the fourth century.
通货膨胀在一个世纪到第四世纪的一段时间内呈波浪式出现。
This is inflation, like, you know, real inflation—1,000 percent inflation—and somehow, they continue to use money throughout this period.
这就是通货膨胀，就像你知道的实际通货膨胀——1000%的通货膨胀——不知何故，他们在整个时期继续使用货币。
They shift to a gold coinage.
他们转向金币。
The silver coinage is ultimately abandoned, in part because the state can’t support it because it doesn’t have enough silver.
银币最终被放弃，部分原因是国家无法支持它，因为它没有足够的白银。
Ordinary people continue to use money, and they even continue to use bronze, which has really lost all its value, as you really have to carry around in huge sackloads in order to buy anything, but they still use it.
老百姓继续用钱，甚至继续用青铜，青铜真的已经失去了所有的价值，因为买东西真的要背着大包袱，但他们还在用。
Ordinary people still use it.
普通人还是用的。
In other words, there’s a lingering faith in the state’s ability to produce money, and ordinary people, despite the inconvenience, still find it more convenient to carry around these sacked coins than to be like, “The hell with this, we’re just going to go for barter,” which they probably do in increasing quantities.
换句话说，人们对国家生产货币的能力抱有挥之不去的信心，而普通民众尽管不方便，仍然发现随身携带这些被洗劫的硬币比说“见鬼，我们只是去进行易货贸易”更方便，他们可能会越来越多地进行易货贸易。
But they still stick with coins, and those coins remain the basis of what will become the Byzantine economy for 1,000 years.
但他们仍然坚持使用硬币，而这些硬币仍然是拜占庭经济 1000 年的基础。
I don’t get it.
我不明白。
Why don’t they just bail on coins altogether?
他们为什么不完全用硬币来保释呢？
Why didn’t coins just go away?
为什么硬币没有消失？
They don’t.
他们不知道。
Well, what should they use instead of coins?
那么，他们应该用什么来代替硬币呢？
Bills of exchange?
汇票？
Yes, they would just go to a barter system.
是的，他们只会采用易货贸易系统。
That’s very costly, right?
这是非常昂贵的，对吧？
They’ll do some barter at the margin, typically in hyperinflations, but in Weimar Germany, we all know the famous videos of people wheeling around the wheelbarrows of paper money, right?
他们会在边际上进行一些易货贸易，通常是在恶性通货膨胀的情况下，但在魏玛德国，我们都知道人们推着纸币的独轮手推车的著名视频，对吗？
Yes, that’s right.
是的，没错。
It’s true, and there are a lot of historical examples with which I should familiarize myself more of people really sticking with coinage, even in the face of its great inconvenience, because barter is even more inconvenient.
确实如此，而且有很多历史例子，我应该更多地了解人们真正坚持使用铸币，即使面对它的巨大不便，因为以物易物更不方便。
Now, that being said, Tyler, in early medieval Europe, we have a really hard time finding daily use of coins.
话虽这么说，泰勒，在中世纪早期的欧洲，我们很难找到硬币的日常用途。
They probably do abandon most coin use on a day-to-day basis, except for really high-value exchanges, so that probably does happen.
除了真正高价值的交易之外，他们可能确实放弃了大多数日常使用的硬币，所以这种情况可能确实会发生。
In the eastern empire, they continue to use now a gold and a bronze currency for 1,000 years, and I suppose it’s for the reasons you describe, because the alternative is simply too awkward.
在东方帝国，他们现在继续使用黄金和青铜货币一千年了，我想这是出于你所描述的原因，因为替代方案太尴尬了。
On the economics of Roman slavery
论罗马奴隶制的经济学
To pose the Bob Fogel question, was Roman slavery profitable?
提出鲍勃·福格尔的问题，罗马奴隶制有利可图吗？
Was Roman slavery profitable?
罗马奴隶制有利可图吗？
Or is it just the going rate of return?
或者只是当前的回报率？
You wouldn’t lose money on average, or you wouldn’t do it, but was it just another business, or is there somehow a big surplus?
平均而言，你不会亏钱，或者你不会这样做，但这只是另一项业务，还是有很大的盈余？
In some industries, it’s clearly profitable, and Romans, I think, what’s interesting, they debate what those industries are.
在某些行业，它显然是有利可图的，而罗马人，我认为，有趣的是，他们争论这些行业是什么。
Some of them would say certain kinds of agriculture only are profitable using slaves, and otherwise, don’t bother.
他们中的一些人会说某些类型的农业只有使用奴隶才能盈利，否则就不用费心了。
Because either the rate of return is too low, or, and this is what really matters, agriculture is seasonal, a slave is not seasonal.
因为要么回报率太低，要么，这才是真正重要的，农业是季节性的，而奴隶不是季节性的。
You have to feed, clothe, and support a slave 24/7.
你必须 24/7 为奴隶提供食物、衣服和支持。
Those two things combined are the equation around whether slavery is profitable or not.
这两件事结合起来就是奴隶制是否有利可图的方程式。
The other places we used to think that slavery was profitable were in industries that were too dangerous or too unpleasant to be able to recruit free labor, and those are the mines.
我们过去认为奴隶制有利可图的其他地方是那些太危险或太令人不愉快而无法招募自由劳动力的行业，这些就是矿井。
We don’t have the numbers, but we know that there are free people and slaves working side-by-side in the mines, and that recruiting people to work in the mines, seemingly—I’m not going to say it wasn’t difficult because the wages that are being paid to free workers in the mines are much higher than wages that are being paid in unskilled agriculture right nearby, but they can.
我们没有数字，但我们知道有自由人和奴隶在矿井里并肩工作，而且招募人们在矿井里工作，看起来——我不会说这并不困难，因为矿井中支付给自由工人的工资远高于附近非技术农业的工资，但他们可以。
They’re doing it.
他们正在这样做。
They’re going quite far afield, though, to get those people.
不过，他们要去很远的地方才能找到这些人。
If you look at the mines in Egypt, they’re getting people from Syria, from all parts of the East, not just from Egypt, in order to work in those mines, but they are able to do that.
如果你看看埃及的矿井，你会发现他们从叙利亚、东方各地，而不仅仅是埃及，招募人们在这些矿井工作，但他们有能力做到这一点。
That has puzzled me.
这让我很困惑。
Why isn’t it the case that either free or slave labor is more efficient?
为什么自由劳动和奴隶劳动都没有效率更高？
Just put that in your mines, and that you’re mixing the two seems unlikely.
只要将其放入您的矿井中，您就不太可能将两者混合在一起。
I’m going to give you an unsatisfactory answer to this question, which I haven’t thought about enough.
对于这个问题，我给你一个不太令人满意的答案，这个答案是我考虑得还不够多。
One of the things that’s intrigued me most is the population of the Roman Empire, the free population, or just the population generally, if you like.
最让我感兴趣的事情之一是罗马帝国的人口，自由人口，或者只是一般人口，如果你愿意的话。
It’s crazy high.
太高了。
It’s way higher than I think we thought.
这比我想象的要高得多。
How high?
多高？
Well, it used to be that we thought that 20 million was high.
嗯，以前我们认为2000万已经很高了。
I don’t think that’s high.
我认为这并不高。
I’m not going to give you a number.
我不会给你一个数字。
It’s as high as it was in most parts of the Mediterranean until the 19th century.
直到 19 世纪，它的高度与地中海大部分地区的高度一样。
Maybe in some places a little bit earlier than that.
也许有些地方比这早一点。
Population really gets higher than that.
人口确实比这个多。
Basically, we’re looking at potentially early 19th-century population levels.
基本上，我们正在研究 19 世纪早期的潜在人口水平。
In that kind of a world, if the majority of that population is free, that’s an awful lot of cheap labor.
在这样的世界里，如果大多数人口都是自由的，那就是大量的廉价劳动力。
That’s an awful lot of cheap child labor.
这是大量廉价童工。
How big would that number be?
这个数字有多大？
I’m not trying to get you to commit to it, but for our audience.
我并不是想让你做出承诺，而是为了我们的观众。
You are trying to get me to commit to a number.
你试图让我承诺一个数字。
No. You can say it in the third person.
不，你可以用第三人称说。
In the early 19th century, the population of the area of the Roman Empire was about—fill in the blank.
19世纪初，罗马帝国地区的人口约为——填空。
I have no idea what it was in the 19th century, so you’re not going to get me to commit to a number.
我不知道 19 世纪是什么情况，所以你不会让我承诺一个数字。
I’m just going to say that it was high.
我只想说它很高。
On what held the Roman Empire together
论是什么让罗马帝国团结在一起
It’s a lot of people, a far-flung empire.
这里人口众多，是一个幅员辽阔的帝国。
I’m sure you know the map of the Roman Empire at its maximum.
我相信您最了解罗马帝国的地图。
Transportation is slow, even with an excellent road system.
即使有良好的道路系统，交通仍然缓慢。
I know this is an amorphous question, but how exactly did they hold it all together?
我知道这是一个无定形的问题，但他们究竟是如何将这一切结合在一起的呢？
We know they didn’t eventually, but for as long as they did, how did it work that someone at the far edge of the empire would actually pay attention to the empire as a whole?
我们知道他们最终没有这样做，但只要他们这样做了，处于帝国遥远边缘的人实际上是如何关注整个帝国的呢？
I don’t think they cared about the empire.
我认为他们并不关心帝国。
I don’t think they paid attention at all.
我认为他们根本没有注意。
I think there’s a set of glues that held the whole thing together.
我认为有一组胶水将整个东西粘在一起。
Some of them are the ones we knew about, and some of them are ones that I happen to think were glue.
其中有些是我们所知道的，有些是我碰巧认为是胶水的。
They’re sending in tribute, right?
他们正在送礼，对吗？
Someone is paying attention.
有人正在关注。
They are paying taxes.
他们正在纳税。
Taxation is one of the things that holds the whole thing together, if only as the stick and not the carrot.
税收是把整个事情结合在一起的因素之一，即使它只是大棒而不是胡萝卜。
I think the carrot that holds it all together, strangely, is consumption, that it’s a consumer economy.
奇怪的是，我认为将这一切结合在一起的胡萝卜是消费，这是消费经济。
There’s massive amounts of consumption.
消费量很大。
On the one hand, that binds people together because people are participating in a shared consumer universe.
一方面，这将人们联系在一起，因为人们正在参与一个共享的消费世界。
Economically, it produces a whole set of knock-on effects that begin locally and expand out to a much broader extent, that raise consumption levels really high, which allows this tax apparatus to keep chugging along, and when they both collapse, they collapse together.
从经济上讲，它产生了一系列连锁反应，从局部开始，扩展到更广泛的范围，从而将消费水平提高到很高，这使得这个税收机构能够继续运转，当它们都崩溃时，它们就会一起崩溃。
In other words, when we can’t see people consuming anymore, we suspect they’re no longer paying their taxes.
换句话说，当我们不再看到人们消费时，我们怀疑他们不再纳税。
It’s an interesting world from that perspective.
从这个角度来看，这是一个有趣的世界。
The state and its ability to collect taxes also relies, going back to a previous question you asked me, on these nonstate networks of friends, of family, of business networks.
回到你之前问我的问题，国家及其征税的能力也依赖于这些由朋友、家人和商业网络组成的非国家网络。
The Roman state is largely a privatized affair.
罗马国家在很大程度上是一个私有化的国家。
It depends on the web of commerce that is happening more generally rather than the other way around, although there’s a reciprocity of, if you like, private commerce and state commerce.
这取决于更普遍发生的商业网络，而不是相反，尽管如果你愿意的话，私人商业和国家商业之间存在着互惠关系。
Insofar as the Roman state really needs people to be exchanging goods in order for it to do the work of collecting its taxes, this consuming world actually helps float the whole boat up.
就罗马国家确实需要人们交换商品来完成征税工作而言，这个消费世界实际上有助于使整艘船浮起来。
That’s one of the things that I think held it together.
我认为这是将其结合在一起的因素之一。
People did it for the clothing?
人们这样做是为了衣服吗？
If you like, and the new sneakers and the iPhones.
如果你愿意的话，还有新的运动鞋和 iPhone。
What were your clothing options like then?
当时你的服装选择是什么样的？
Say you’re part of the empire, at or near its peak.
假设你是帝国的一部分，正处于或接近其鼎盛时期。
What should you buy in terms of clothes?
就衣服而言，你应该买什么？
How would it be made?
它将如何制作？
How would you get it?
你会怎样得到它？
Who would ship it where?
谁会把它运到哪里？
We used to think that everyone just made their own clothes, Little House on the Prairie style.
我们曾经以为每个人只是做自己的衣服，草原小屋风格。
Now we know that’s not true from some new archaeology.
现在我们从一些新的考古学中知道这不是真的。
We can see standardized weaving.
我们可以看到标准化的编织。
We can see people, even really poor people, getting clothes from actually quite a long distance away.
我们可以看到人们，甚至是非常贫穷的人，实际上从很远的地方获取衣服。
You would probably get your clothes, if you lived in a rural village, from whoever the local weaver is.
如果你住在乡村，你可能会从当地的织布工那里得到衣服。
If you lived in Rome, I bet your clothes might even come from sheep in Gaul, which are then woven either in Gaul or somewhere in between and shipped to the capital.
如果你住在罗马，我敢打赌你的衣服甚至可能来自高卢的羊，然后在高卢或两者之间的某个地方编织，然后运到首都。
You’re probably not making your own clothes, which was a surprise to all of us, I think, and you’re wearing and keeping and having a lot more clothes than we ever thought.
你可能不是自己做衣服，我想这对我们所有人来说都是一个惊喜，而且你穿着、保留和拥有的衣服比我们想象的要多得多。
Since you asked before about Jewish households, we have some great Jewish evidence for what constitutes the absolute bare minimum of clothes that anyone needs to have.
既然你之前问过关于犹太家庭的问题，我们有一些很好的犹太证据来证明什么构成了任何人需要拥有的绝对最低限度的衣服。
We used to think it was a tunic and that was it.
我们曾经认为它是一件外衣，就是这样。
It turns out to be at least two or three tunics, two or three cloaks, and a whole range of undergarments, and socks, and a whole bunch of other things, and they were colorful.
事实证明，至少有两三件外衣，两三件斗篷，还有各种各样的内衣、袜子，还有一大堆其他东西，而且它们都是五颜六色的。
Even poor people had clothes that were purple stripes and yellow stripes and all kinds of different patterns.
即使是穷人，衣服上也有紫色条纹、黄色条纹以及各种不同的图案。
I think we would be surprised, actually, at how colorful and well dressed and variegated people’s clothing were, and their shoes.
事实上，我想我们会对人们的衣服和鞋子的色彩缤纷、衣着考究、杂色繁多感到惊讶。
They had the most extraordinarily elaborate shoes.
他们拥有最精致的鞋子。
Anyone of your listeners who has a trip to England planned, go to Vindolanda on Hadrian’s Wall up in the north and look at the collection of Roman shoes.
任何计划去英国旅行的听众，都可以去北部哈德良长城上的文德兰达，看看罗马鞋子的收藏。
Extraordinary different styles for men, women, and children.
男士、女士和儿童的非凡风格。
This is the frontier of the consuming society.
这是消费社会的前沿。
In your view, parts of Europe, the wealthier parts, maybe did not reattain Roman standards of living until what, the mid-18th century?
在您看来，欧洲部分地区，即较富裕的地区，可能直到 18 世纪中叶才恢复罗马的生活水平？
Yes, I think that’s true.
是的，我认为确实如此。
Say France or Spain, it would be later yet, right?
比如说法国或西班牙，那会更晚，对吧？
If by standards of living you mean access to consumer goods, yes.
如果你所说的生活水平是指获得消费品的机会，那么是的。
You can run some math on—this is quite a fun thing to do, actually—how many different kinds of dishes did an ordinary person in, say, 17th-century England have versus how many different kinds of dishes did the same ordinary Roman person have?
你可以做一些数学计算——实际上，这是一件非常有趣的事情——一个普通人在 17 世纪的英国有多少种不同的菜肴，而同一个普通罗马人有多少种不同的菜肴？
The Roman person had more different kinds of dishes of more different shapes and sizes and materials than the English person.
罗马人比英国人有更多不同种类的菜肴，形状、大小和材料也更加不同。
On Roman cookery
论罗马烹饪
If you try to cook a Roman meal from an old recipe, is it any good?
如果你尝试用旧食谱做一顿罗马餐，这有什么好处吗？
I was just looking at some TikTok videos of someone who’s done exactly that and really done a brilliant job, actually.
我只是在看一些 TikTok 视频，视频中有人确实做到了这一点，而且实际上做得非常出色。
They don’t taste like what we think of as tasting good because again—this is the light motif of this conversation, Tyler—it’s a completely different culinary world.
它们尝起来不像我们认为的好吃，因为这又是这次谈话的轻松主题，泰勒，这是一个完全不同的烹饪世界。
It combines flavors that we just don’t think belong together, like oysters and eggs and honey.
它结合了我们认为不属于一起的味道，比如牡蛎、鸡蛋和蜂蜜。
That sounds okay to me.
这对我来说听起来不错。
Really?
真的吗？
Okay.
好的。
Go dig out the book, the recipe book of Apicius, and you can go make his various mixed dishes, which really contain some of the most astonishing variety of ingredients.
去翻开这本书，阿比修斯的食谱书，你可以去制作他的各种混合菜肴，其中确实包含了一些最令人惊讶的各种食材。
In particular, this mixture of the savory and the super sweet, which I think we would find hard to take.
特别是这种咸味和超甜的混合物，我认为我们会很难接受。
A lot of medieval cooking is the same, we think, right?
我们认为很多中世纪的烹饪都是一样的，对吧？
Some medieval cooking is the same, exactly.
一些中世纪的烹饪是完全相同的。
And some North African cooking is the same.
一些北非烹饪也是一样。
There are culinary traditions that continue that mix these two things.
混合这两种东西的烹饪传统仍在延续。
Of course, and then the Romans famously included ingredients like dormice and things like this, that we don’t eat today.
当然，后来罗马人著名地加入了睡鼠之类的成分，但我们今天不吃这些东西。
There’s no market in ice, is there?
冰没有市场，是吗？
Some of these recipes call for snow.
其中一些食谱需要雪。
Where is that coming from?
那是从哪里来的？
The Alps?
阿尔卑斯山？
Presumably, these are recipes that are designed to be made in very elite households that are actually bringing in snow from the Alps, the nearest mountains, and somehow preserving it.
据推测，这些食谱是专为非常精英家庭制作的，这些家庭实际上从阿尔卑斯山、最近的山脉带来雪，并以某种方式保存它。
The somehow—that’s a very interesting word.
不知何故——这是一个非常有趣的词。
The Alps are far from Rome.
阿尔卑斯山距离罗马很远。
You could carry it in a box, but the snow’s going to melt without some kind of technology.
你可以把它放在盒子里携带，但如果没有某种技术，雪就会融化。
What is it you think they actually did?
你认为他们实际上做了什么？
I come from a part of the world where we long had ice houses.
我来自世界上长期拥有冰屋的地方。
This is not an insurmountable problem.
这并不是一个无法克服的问题。
If you want to know what I think they did.
如果你想知道我认为他们做了什么。
First of all, this has got to be a seasonal dish that is not made in August.
首先，这必须是一道非八月份做的时令菜。
The whole point of including the snow is to show you can pull it off, that you could somehow roll up in lowland Italy with some snow and astonish your guests, even if that meant sending your slaves, since you asked about them, off to the nearest snow and make them bring it back.
包括雪的全部目的是为了表明你可以做到这一点，你可以以某种方式在意大利低地卷起一些雪，让你的客人感到惊讶，即使这意味着派你的奴隶，因为你问过他们，去最近的雪，让他们把它带回来。
Almost certainly, they are using clay and other kinds of ceramics as insulation.
几乎可以肯定，他们使用粘土和其他种类的陶瓷作为绝缘材料。
From Pompeii, there’s some wonderful preserved eggs, which they’ve figured out how to preserve by encasing them all in clay.
庞贝古城有一些精美的皮蛋，他们想出了如何通过将它们全部包裹在粘土中来保存它们。
It’s kind of a refrigeration device.
这是一种制冷装置。
On the Romans as Masters of Scale
论罗马人作为规模大师
In terms of technology, one reads various crackpots suggesting the Romans had much more advanced technology than we had thought, but those views to me are not obviously wrong.
在技术方面，人们读过各种疯子，认为罗马人拥有比我们想象的更先进的技术，但对我来说，这些观点并不是明显错误的。
I’m not persuaded by any single one of them, but you’ve revised the historical picture enough.
我不相信其中任何一个，但你对历史图景的修改已经足够了。
Do you ever have thoughts about Roman technology being quite a bit more advanced than what we had thought?
您是否认为罗马技术比我们想象的要先进得多？
I think what the maximalists of Roman technology would argue is that the Romans didn’t invent too much that hadn’t already been, at least in the works, in the Greek world.
我认为罗马技术的极端主义者会争辩说，罗马人并没有发明太多希腊世界尚未发明的东西，至少在作品中是这样。
What they did was make it bigger and increase the size of everything, from all kinds of water-powered devices, which is mostly what we credit them with, to the expansion of the use of mortar and inventing mortar that’s set underwater, which is a huge innovation.
他们所做的就是把它做得更大，增加所有东西的尺寸，从各种水动力设备（这主要是我们归功于他们的），到扩大迫击炮的使用并发明了水下迫击炮，这是一项巨大的创新。
The Romans are not so much inventors as they are giganticizers.
与其说罗马人是发明家，不如说他们是巨人创造者。
They make everything bigger, and they expand the scale.
他们把一切都做大了，扩大了规模。
What I wish I could see more of, but still don’t see, is ordinary people having access to this technology.
我希望我能看到更多，但仍然没有看到的是普通人能够接触到这项技术。
We still can’t see water wheels, for instance, being used on small farms.
例如，我们仍然看不到小农场使用水车。
That would be a game-changer to my mind, but we don’t see that yet.
在我看来，这将改变游戏规则，但我们还没有看到这一点。
I can only think of a handful of examples where we can see small farms with water power.
我只能想到几个例子，我们可以看到拥有水力的小农场。
Agriculture is the biggest industry.
农业是最大的产业。
They make their looms really big, so textile manufacturing is the biggest industry after agriculture.
他们的织机非常大，因此纺织制造业是继农业之后最大的产业。
Their looms get bigger.
他们的织机变得更大。
Do they really change textile manufacturing?
它们真的改变了纺织制造业吗？
They don’t ever invent the spinning wheel, as far as we can tell.
据我们所知，他们从未发明过纺车。
That was a game-changer.
那是一个游戏规则的改变者。
I’m a maximalist, if you like, on the matter of scale, but it still bothers me that there isn’t the trickle-down effect into ordinary people’s economic lives that we see, say, beginning in the 18th century in Northern Europe.
如果你愿意的话，在规模问题上，我是一个极端主义者，但令我困扰的是，普通人的经济生活并没有像我们从 18 世纪开始在北欧看到的那样，出现了涓滴效应。
When Romans go, say, to Ptolemaic Egypt, where science was quite advanced, did they have science envy, or they don’t care, or it’s ho-hum, or they already knew it?
例如，当罗马人前往科学相当发达的托勒密埃及时，他们是否对科学充满嫉妒，或者他们不在乎，或者这很乏味，或者他们已经知道了？
How do you interpret that?
你如何解释这一点？
Of course, the Romans beat the Ptolemaic kings and take over Egypt for their own.
当然，罗马人击败了托勒密国王并占领了埃及。
They certainly regard themselves as the inheritor of Greek knowledge, but I don’t know that they would look at it in terms of envy, any more than they do any other Greek things.
他们当然认为自己是希腊知识的继承者，但我不知道他们会用嫉妒的眼光来看待它，就像他们对任何其他希腊事物一样。
They understand that the Greeks are their superior in all kinds of branches of not only knowledge, but art, and the sort of the art of living.
他们明白，希腊人不仅在知识、艺术以及生活艺术的各个领域都比他们优越。
They acknowledge their debt to that.
他们承认对此负有责任。
Given their seamless integration of many of these, if you like, technologies, I think they see it as their due.
鉴于他们对其中许多技术（如果你喜欢的话）的无缝集成，我认为他们认为这是他们应得的。
On Rome's contact with Asia
论罗马与亚洲的接触
How much contact does Rome have with China back then?
当年罗马与中国有多少交往？
Do they know about China?
他们了解中国吗？
Do they have China envy?
他们嫉妒中国吗？
Do they learn from China?
他们向中国学习吗？
Do they have China envy?
他们嫉妒中国吗？
Not that we can tell.
我们不能说。
They certainly have contact with China, but through lots of middlemen, if you like.
他们当然与中国有联系，但如果你愿意的话，可以通过很多中间商。
Increasingly, we can see and understand the scale of the contact that they had with India and the Indian subcontinent.
我们越来越多地看到并了解他们与印度和印度次大陆接触的规模。
In fact, some of the real maximalist estimates for Roman trade look at some numbers that come out of trade with the Far East, with certain kinds of commodities like peppercorns, which the Romans were very fond of.
事实上，对罗马贸易的一些真正的最大化估计着眼于与远东贸易的一些数字，其中包括罗马人非常喜欢的某些商品，例如花椒。
In fact, we can now see ordinary people using peppercorns, at least occasionally, if they lived in a city.
事实上，我们现在可以看到普通人使用花椒，如果他们住在城市的话，至少偶尔会使用。
Those they had to get from the East.
那些他们必须从东方获得的东西。
Certain things that we imagine, like ivory and other kinds of commodities, can only be found in the East.
我们想象的某些东西，比如象牙和其他种类的商品，只能在东方找到。
The value of those is extremely high, even if the scale, quantities of that movement are probably pretty low.
这些运动的价值非常高，尽管该运动的规模和数量可能相当低。
Today, it’s not only the monetary value, but the scale of our relationship with China that makes us think the Roman trade with the East, it certainly wasn’t around basic staple commodities in the way that it is today.
今天，不仅仅是货币价值，还有我们与中国关系的规模，让我们认为罗马与东方的贸易肯定不像今天那样围绕基本的主要商品。
Say I’m a well-to-do Roman, and I decide I want to walk to India.
假设我是一个富裕的罗马人，我决定步行去印度。
Other than my own common sense, is there anything that will stop me?
除了我自己的常识之外，还有什么可以阻止我吗？
No. You could walk to India if you wanted to.
No. You could walk to India if you wanted to.
I could do it?
我能做到吗？
Sure.
当然。
You could do it.
你可以做到的。
Why would you want to?
你为什么想要这样做？
Curiosity.
好奇心。
Why did people cross the Atlantic?
Why did people cross the Atlantic?
That was really insane, but they did it.
That was really insane, but they did it.
Well, I think the real issue that I’m asking is about the walking rather than the sailing, which is certainly what they would have done rather than walk.
好吧，我认为我要问的真正问题是步行而不是航行，这肯定是他们会做的而不是步行。
Romans never walk anywhere if they can take a boat because it’s obviously much quicker and faster to sail.
罗马人只要能乘船就永远不会步行去任何地方，因为航行显然越来越快。
On the Vesuvius Challenge
On the Vesuvius Challenge
What would you most like to learn from the Vesuvius Challenge scrolls?
您最想从维苏威挑战卷轴中学到什么？
They’re being deciphered using AI.
They’re being deciphered using AI.
Yes.
是的。
Well, frankly, not very much, actually.
Well, frankly, not very much, actually.
I’m a little perplexed about this project, not least because it seems as though many of these works we have, some of them will doubtlessly be new—obviously, I’d prefer we spent more time on the millions and millions of papyri that exist in museum collections and libraries around the world that haven’t yet been published, which relate to the activities of ordinary Romans, rather than spending millions and hopefully not undertaking unnecessary excavations for a few admittedly very sexy, but ultimately, I think, not game-changing papyri in that villa.
我对这个项目有点困惑，尤其是因为我们拥有的许多作品，其中一些无疑是新的——显然，我宁愿我们花更多的时间研究世界各地博物馆收藏和图书馆中尚未出版的数以百万计的纸莎草纸，这些纸莎草纸与普通罗马人的活动有关，而不是花费数百万美元，希望不要对一些公认非常性感的作品进行不必要的挖掘，但最终，我认为这不会改变游戏规则那个别墅里的纸莎草纸。
Sorry.
对不起。
Say there’s a lost book by Aristotle in there.
Say there’s a lost book by Aristotle in there.
A lost book by Aristotle?
A lost book by Aristotle?
Which is entirely possible.
这是完全有可能的。
It’s true, but you’re asking the wrong person.
确实如此，但你问错人了。
Do I think that we should be putting all of our limited amounts of academic treasure into a new book of Aristotle or revealing the lives of the 90 percent?
我是否认为我们应该将所有有限的学术宝藏投入一本亚里士多德的新书中，或者揭示90%的人的生活？
I’ll back the 90 percent any day.
I’ll back the 90 percent any day.
We don’t have to do any more digging to find them because they’ve been excavated.
我们不需要再挖掘就能找到它们，因为它们已经被挖掘出来了。
We just have to study the stuff we have.
We just have to study the stuff we have.
On ancient Carthage and the fall of Rome
On ancient Carthage and the fall of Rome
Why don’t we know more about ancient Carthage than we do?
为什么我们对古代迦太基的了解不多？
Well, there is a rather large modern city sat on top of it.
嗯，上面有一座相当大的现代城市。
Same with Rome, right?
罗马也一样吧？
That’s true.
这是真的。
I was getting to the second part of my answer.
I was getting to the second part of my answer.
There’s been a great work over the years done on Carthage.
多年来，迦太基已经完成了很多伟大的工作。
The Romans so successfully built on top of the Carthage I think you’re talking about, Punic Carthage, that they eradicated huge swaths of it.
罗马人如此成功地在迦太基之上建造了我想你正在谈论的布匿迦太基，以至于他们铲除了大片土地。
It’s very difficult to get at those really early pre-Roman levels.
想要达到真正早期的前罗马水平是非常困难的。
When the Romans claimed that they destroyed Carthage, they didn’t so much completely level it as they just built a massive Roman city, which was extremely wealthy and very big on top of it.
当罗马人声称他们摧毁了迦太基时，他们并没有将其完全夷为平地，而只是建造了一座巨大的罗马城市，这座城市非常富有，而且非常大。
Actually getting underneath to find Hannibal’s Carthage is a really tricky business, complicated by the modern city.
事实上，深入地下寻找汉尼拔的迦太基是一件非常棘手的事情，由于现代城市的影响，情况变得更加复杂。
Of course, we didn’t care.
Of course, we didn’t care.
We believed the Romans when they said they destroyed it.
当罗马人说他们摧毁了它时，我们相信了他们。
We believed the Romans when they said that they had eradicated those nasty Carthaginians, and we didn’t care.
当罗马人说他们已经消灭了那些可恶的迦太基人时，我们相信了他们，但我们不在乎。
Now I think we’re realizing how important the Carthaginians were and how important the whole Punic-speaking world was.
现在我认为我们正在意识到迦太基人的重要性以及整个布匿语世界的重要性。
Now we’re going to go back and find them.
Now we’re going to go back and find them.
It’s great.
这很棒。
There’s very longstanding debates on why Rome declined.
关于罗马为何衰落的争论由来已久。
You look at Rome from a different perspective, that of the 90 percent using archaeological methods.
你从不同的角度看待罗马，90％的人使用考古方法。
Does that give you a different view on why Rome declined?
这是否让您对罗马衰落的原因有不同的看法？
I am writing a sequel to the book that you had in your hand a minute ago on exactly this question, or maybe not the question of why Rome declined, but what it was like to live through those years, those centuries of, if not decline, then complete transformation.
我正在写一分钟前你手里的那本书的续集，主题正是这个问题，或者也许不是罗马为什么衰落的问题，而是经历那些年、那些世纪（如果不是衰落，然后彻底转变）的生活是什么样的。
I think that I will propose ultimately a really different answer than the one that’s been proposed before that is obviously an economic answer.
我认为我最终会提出一个与之前提出的答案完全不同的答案，这显然是一个经济答案。
It has to do with the state as well and its ability to collect taxes, but it also has to do with the synergy between ordinary people’s consumption and production and the ability of that state to survive.
它既与国家及其征税能力有关，也与老百姓的消费和生产之间的协同作用以及国家的生存能力有关。
They both needed each other.
They both needed each other.
Ultimately, a whole series of thing happened that broke that feedback loop.
最终，发生了一系列事情，打破了反馈循环。
This is what I’m puzzled by.
This is what I’m puzzled by.
You asked me about that previously.
你之前问过我这个问题。
I said money.
我说钱。
The second thing I’m really puzzled by is demographics.
我真正困惑的第二件事是人口统计数据。
I’m not going to give you an answer to how many people lived in the Roman Empire, but I can tell you that an awful lot fewer people lived in, say, the fifth century.
我不会告诉你有多少人生活在罗马帝国，但我可以告诉你，生活在五世纪的人要少得多。
Population decline sets in Roman Italy almost certainly even by the late second century.
几乎可以肯定，罗马意大利的人口在二世纪末就开始下降。
Maybe even it’s already starting under the reign of Hadrian.
甚至可能在哈德良统治时期就已经开始了。
This isn’t true across the empire as a whole, and population numbers are radically different, say, in Britain versus Italy versus Egypt, but it’s clear that the population declines.
整个帝国的情况并非如此，人口数量截然不同，例如英国、意大利和埃及，但人口数量显然在下降。
In some cases, it declines precipitously and stays low.
在某些情况下，它会急剧下降并保持在较低水平。
This has an enormous set of knock-on effects for the state and its ability to collect taxes, but also for that cycle of consumption and production that works at a local level.
这不仅对国家及其征税能力产生了巨大的连锁反应，而且对地方层面的消费和生产周期也产生了巨大的连锁反应。
It just falls apart.
它只是崩溃了。
It worked when population was high and dense, and then it failed to work when that population emptied.
当人口众多且密集时，它会发挥作用，而当人口空荡荡时，它就会失效。
Particularly in the countryside.
尤其是在农村。
How does the plague hypothesis fit into your view?
瘟疫假说如何符合您的观点？
I don’t think it’s plague.
我不认为这是瘟疫。
I think plague is working on a population that’s already declining, or rather, it’s not the plague that we think.
我认为鼠疫正在对已经在下降的人口起作用，或者更确切地说，它不是我们想象的鼠疫。
The Justinianic plague is too late.
查士丁尼瘟疫来得太晚了。
That ship is sailed by the early to mid-sixth century when the Justinianic plague gets going.
这艘船是在六世纪早期到中期查士丁尼瘟疫爆发时航行的。
Of course, remember, there’s at least two other major plagues that we know about and probably a whole bunch of ones that we don’t.
当然，请记住，我们至少知道另外两种主要瘟疫，也可能有一大堆我们不知道的瘟疫。
Which, if you think about it, and I’m right, that the population is unusually high, are in an inevitability.
如果你仔细想想，人口异常高，这是不可避免的，我是对的。
In a world which—circling back to your earlier question about sanitation—in a world which is hyper-dense, hyper-urbanized, and yet still never really managed to solve the urban sanitation problem.
在一个超密集、超城市化但仍未真正解决城市卫生问题的世界里——回到你之前关于卫生设施的问题。
Endemic disease, obsidies, cholera, dysentery, all the real killers are really important and very high.
地方病、黑曜石、霍乱、痢疾，所有真正的杀手都非常重要而且非常高。
The possibility for a bigger event to cause a demographic shock is high.
更大的事件引起人口冲击的可能性很高。
Why those population numbers then would have stayed low is something that I still have to figure out.
为什么这些人口数量会一直保持在较低水平，这是我仍然需要弄清楚的。
If you want my early forecast, inflation and population, those are the two culprits behind what happened to the Roman Empire.
如果你想听我的早期预测，通货膨胀和人口，这是罗马帝国发生的事情的两个罪魁祸首。
On the Realities of Doing Archaeology
论考古学的现实
A few questions about method.
关于方法的几个问题。
Just tell us, what is landscape archaeology?
请告诉我们，什么是景观考古学？
Landscape archaeology is using mostly nonexcavation methods.
景观考古学主要使用非挖掘方法。
Picking up ceramics on the surface of the ground, using new technologies like geophysics or aerial photography, or now drones, to examine whole landscapes rather than individual sites.
使用地球物理学或航空摄影或现在的无人机等新技术拾取地面表面的陶瓷，以检查整个景观而不是单个地点。
Most often, in what we call noninvasive methods, that is to say, not digging.
最常见的是我们所说的非侵入性方法，也就是说，不挖掘。
The goal of landscape archaeology is to actually understand large swaths of mostly the countryside and its changes over time, rather than cities on the one hand and individual sites on the other.
景观考古学的目标是真正了解大片乡村及其随时间的变化，而不是一方面了解城市，另一方面了解个别遗址。
Put aside your teaching, put aside your writing.
抛开你的教学，抛开你的写作。
If someone asks, like an eight-year-old asks, what do you do?
如果有人问，就像八岁孩子问的那样，你会做什么？
You’re out there somewhere.
你在外面的某个地方。
You wake up in the morning.
你早上醒来。
What is it you actually go out and do?
你实际上出去做什么？
Sometimes I’m being very flip, and I say I dig up dead people’s garbage, which isn’t untrue because that’s what we do.
有时我很轻率，我说我挖死人的垃圾，这并非不真实，因为这就是我们所做的。
If you’re asking, what do you do on a dig?
如果你问，你在挖掘时做什么？
Yes.
是的。
Is that what you’re asking?
这就是你问的吗？
Do you hold the shovel?
你拿着铲子吗？
Do you give the orders to the people with the shovels?
你向拿着铲子的人发号施令吗？
What is it you do?
你是做什么的？
Yes.
是的。
I try to hold the pick, my favorite instrument, as much as possible, although I very often don’t get to do that.
我尝试尽可能多地握住拨片（我最喜欢的乐器），尽管我经常无法做到这一点。
Our excavation is a lot, I imagine, like going to war or making a movie, any of these activities that involve huge, disparate activities that all have to be choreographed in order for the thing to get pulled off.
我想，我们的挖掘工作有很多，比如打仗或拍电影，任何这些活动都涉及巨大的、不同的活动，所有这些活动都必须精心设计才能完成。
That means everything from organizing porta-potties to food to working with local landowners and local government to actually swinging the pick myself.
这意味着一切，从组织便盆到食物，到与当地土地所有者和地方政府合作，再到亲自挥动镐。
My favorite piece is swinging the pick, but very often I have to do all those other things as well.
我最喜欢的作品是挥动拨片，但很多时候我还必须做所有其他事情。
The projects that I do, my favorite part, even more than swinging the pick, is actually getting to work with local farmers and local landowners who are our partners in doing archaeology.
我所做的项目，我最喜欢的部分，甚至不仅仅是挥动镐，实际上是与当地农民和当地土地所有者合作，他们是我们考古学的合作伙伴。
It’s their land.
这是他们的土地。
They’re the inheritors, if you like, of the Romans who used to live on their land.
如果你愿意的话，他们是曾经生活在他们土地上的罗马人的继承人。
They are oftentimes our greatest source of information about how that land was used and what they found.
它们通常是我们了解这片土地如何使用以及他们发现了什么的最大信息来源。
They’re fantastic to work with.
与他们合作非常棒。
How much is there still to discover, do you think, practically speaking?
实际上，您认为还有多少东西有待发现？
Oh, so much.
哦，这么多。
Oh, it’s amazing how much there is to discover.
哦，令人惊讶的是有这么多东西有待发现。
I’ll give you an example.
我给你举个例子。
How in the world did they build Rome?
他们究竟是如何建造罗马的？
Well, Rome is not only a city of marble, as Augustus claimed to have left it, but it is above all a city of brick.
好吧，罗马不仅是奥古斯都声称留下的一座大理石之城，而且首先是一座砖砌之城。
Where did those bricks come from?
这些砖头是从哪里来的？
We used to think the bricks were made right there in the city of Rome.
我们曾经认为这些砖块是在罗马城里制作的。
Some brilliant colleagues of mine figured out that, in fact, that’s not the case, that the Romans could never have made all the bricks that built Rome right in the city of Rome because they’d already cut down all the forests.
我的一些才华横溢的同事发现，事实上，情况并非如此，罗马人永远不可能在罗马城内制造建造罗马的所有砖块，因为他们已经砍伐了所有森林。
They had to keep moving farther and farther outside of Rome in order to actually make the very fabric that the city was made from.
他们必须不断地向罗马以外的地方移动，才能真正制造出这座城市的结构。
We didn’t know this until 20 years ago.
直到 20 年前我们才知道这一点。
Only recently have we actually found this massive industrial belt of brick factories going up and down the Tiber Valley, probably 80 to 100 kilometers away from Rome.
直到最近，我们才真正发现了这条遍布台伯河谷的巨大砖厂工业带，距离罗马可能有 80 到 100 公里。
That’s a big thing to have missed.
这是一件值得错过的大事。
That’s like having missed Pittsburgh.
这就像错过了匹兹堡。
Twenty years ago, we figured this out.
二十年前，我们就明白了这一点。
There’s so much to discover.
有很多东西有待发现。
Think about it.
想一想。
For Italy, the number of farms, this is the majority of the economy is smallholder farmers.
对于意大利的农场数量来说，这个经济体的大部分是小农。
How many farms have we excavated?
我们已经挖掘了多少农场？
Ten?
十？
Fifteen?
十五？
That’s amazing.
太棒了。
So much left to discover.
还有很多东西有待发现。
You grew up in Big Moose, New York.
你在纽约大穆斯长大。
How has that influenced how you approach the Roman Empire?
这对您对待罗马帝国的方式有何影响？
I understand what it means to live in small communities, and most Romans lived in small communities.
我理解生活在小社区意味着什么，大多数罗马人也生活在小社区。
I didn’t grow up in a city.
我不是在城市长大的。
Most Romans, despite the fact that we now know a lot more than we thought lived in cities, most Romans still didn’t live in cities.
大多数罗马人，尽管我们现在知道的比我们想象的要多得多，但大多数罗马人仍然没有生活在城市中。
I think the thing that made the biggest difference to me, though, Tyler, is that I grew up in a small family business.
不过，泰勒，我认为对我来说最大的改变是我在一个小型家族企业中长大。
Most businesses in the Roman world were small family businesses.
罗马世界的大多数企业都是小型家族企业。
That gave me an interest and experience in the multitude of things that have to happen for a small family business to work.
这让我对小型家族企业运作所必须发生的众多事情产生了兴趣和经验。
The Roman world, as I keep emphasizing, is a world of friends and family.
正如我一直强调的那样，罗马世界是一个朋友和家人的世界。
It’s a world that, while bigger in scale than most worlds before the 19th century, still operates very much at that level of friends and family.
这个世界虽然规模比 19 世纪之前的大多数世界都要大，但在很大程度上仍然是在朋友和家人的层面上运作。
That was the small business, small world that I grew up in.
这就是我成长的小企业、小世界。
A doctoral student comes to you and says, “I want to find something like those newly discovered brick factories.
一位博士生来找你说：“我想找到像那些新发现的砖厂那样的东西。
Where should I actually go and look?” Where do you send them?
我到底应该去哪里看看呢？”你把它们送到哪里？
Increasingly, actually, I’ve been sending—since you asked about papyri—I send them to the papyri.
事实上，自从你问起纸莎草纸之后，我一直在越来越多地将它们发送给纸莎草纸。
These amazing efforts by colleagues who work on papyri have increasingly put huge swaths of what amount to the economic records of the ancient world online, papyri.info.
从事纸莎草纸研究的同事们做出了惊人的努力，越来越多地将相当于古代世界经济记录的大量内容放到了网上，papyri.info。
Any of your listeners can go and look it up.
任何听众都可以去查找。
There are thousands of papyri that have not been either published or analyzed or really made use of in the ways that we now can do, now that they’re so available to us.
有数以千计的纸莎草纸尚未出版、分析或真正以我们现在所能做到的方式加以利用，因为它们对我们来说是如此可用。
Those papyri, although they only relate to Roman Egypt, mostly, so a tiny corner of the Roman world—it was arguably the breadbasket of the Roman world, one of its most important economic regions—they have so much to teach us.
这些纸莎草纸虽然大部分只与罗马埃及有关，但它们只是罗马世界的一个小角落——可以说是罗马世界的粮仓，是罗马最重要的经济区域之一——它们有很多东西可以教给我们。
In 20 years’ time, I think we’re going to think completely different things about the Roman economy, and that’s going to be because of the papyri.
20年后，我认为我们将对罗马经济有完全不同的看法，这将是因为纸莎草纸。
The second place that’s going to change the way we think about the Roman world or the ancient economy generally is all of the new excavations that are going on in advance of modern construction.
第二个将改变我们对罗马世界或古代经济的看法的地方是现代建筑之前正在进行的所有新发掘。
Once Italy, and Spain, and Southern Europe start to have the same rules and laws that basically make partners of development and archaeology, we’re going to have huge amounts of data from those places as well.
一旦意大利、西班牙和南欧开始制定基本上成为发展和考古合作伙伴的相同规则和法律，我们也将获得来自这些地方的大量数据。
It’s really modern construction and the archaeology that goes on around modern construction that’s transformed our knowledge about, say, Roman demographics or Roman farming or any of these other activities that make up the heart of the Roman economy.
真正的现代建筑和围绕现代建筑进行的考古学改变了我们对罗马人口统计、罗马农业或构成罗马经济核心的任何其他活动的认识。
A lot of that material hasn’t been studied.
其中很多材料还没有被研究过。
It’s all out there.
一切都在那里。
That’s where I send them.
那就是我送他们去的地方。
Is it much harder to do work outside the EU?
在欧盟以外的地方工作会更困难吗？
Say someone wants to go to Tunisia, is that just as easy, or there’s additional obstacles—legal, regulatory, cultural?
假设有人想去突尼斯，那是那么容易，还是还有其他障碍——法律、监管、文化？
Excavation, it’s challenging everywhere, and for reasons that in many cases are correct.
挖掘工作在任何地方都充满挑战，而且其原因在许多情况下都是正确的。
These are countries that have experience of foreign archaeologists coming in and taking stuff and leaving with it and leaving them with nothing.
这些国家都有外国考古学家进来拿走东西然后带走却什么也没留下的经历。
They’re quite keen, understandably, to prevent that from happening in the future.
可以理解的是，他们非常热衷于防止这种情况在未来发生。
I don’t know that it’s harder to dig in Tunisia than it is in Greece.
我不知道在突尼斯挖掘比在希腊更难。
It’s really hard to dig in Greece.
在希腊挖掘真的很难。
Because of the law?
因为法律？
Because of the law, and because of the way in which, again, responses to foreign predation of Greek antiquities produced a set of structures which one has to work within.
因为法律，也因为对外国掠夺希腊文物的反应产生了一套人们必须在其中运作的结构。
Those don’t exist necessarily in Tunisia.
这些在突尼斯不一定存在。
There’s amazing Tunisian colleagues with whom one can partner and develop projects that are of interest to both parties.
我们有令人惊叹的突尼斯同事，可以与他们合作并开发双方都感兴趣的项目。
As far as archaeology is concerned, there is no such thing as the EU.
就考古学而言，欧盟并不存在。
You really are operating at the level of the nation state, and inside some of those nations, like Spain, you’re really working at the level of the province, and that’s your partner.
你实际上是在民族国家的层面上运作，而在其中一些国家，比如西班牙，你实际上是在省的层面上运作，而那是你的合作伙伴。
That’s the person or the entity with which it’s either difficult or easy to work.
与这个人或实体合作要么困难要么容易。
It really varies all over the place.
各地情况确实各不相同。
On touring the Roman Empire
关于游览罗马帝国
Last question.
最后一个问题。
Put aside Rome and assume there’s no monetary constraint.
抛开罗马，假设没有货币限制。
An educated person comes to you and says, “I have three weeks.
一个受过教育的人来找你说：“我只有三个星期的时间。
I’d like to do a tour of the Roman Empire, but I’ve already seen everything in Rome.” What do you outline for the tour?
我想去罗马帝国旅游，但罗马的一切我都已经看过了。”您对这次巡演有何概述？
Where should they go?
他们应该去哪里？
Three weeks.
三个星期。
Three weeks.
三个星期。
Give or take.
给予或索取。
If you need another day, that’s fine.
如果您需要另一天，那很好。
I think I would start them off at Hadrian’s Wall.
我想我会从哈德良长城开始。
Hadrian’s Wall is extraordinary for a whole bunch of reasons.
哈德良长城之所以非凡，有很多原因。
As one of the few places the Romans actually built a border, it’s an extraordinary statement of empire.
作为罗马人实际建立边界的少数地方之一，这是对帝国的非凡声明。
This amazing archaeological site at Vindolanda, which is actually run by family and excavated by family, is just such an eye-opener to see how ordinary people—soldiers, very often, most of whom, of course, are not Italian; they’re recruited from Gaul—they’re recruited from all over the place, are living up in, literally, for what was, for them, the end of the world.
文德兰达这个令人惊叹的考古遗址实际上是由家庭经营并由家庭挖掘的，令人大开眼界，看到普通人（通常是士兵，当然其中大多数不是意大利人）是如何工作的。他们是从高卢招募来的——他们是从世界各地招募来的，他们生活在对他们来说实际上是世界末日的地方。
You can see everything from their shoes to pieces of their clothing to their very grubby daily lives.
你可以看到他们的一切，从他们的鞋子到他们的衣服，再到他们肮脏的日常生活。
You go first, I think, to there.
我想，你先去那里。
You’re going to skip the heart of the empire, are you?
你要跳过帝国的中心，是吗？
Your person is sick of Italy and sick of Rome.
你的人厌倦了意大利，厌倦了罗马。
They’re not sick of Italy, but they’ve done Rome.
他们并不厌倦意大利，但他们已经厌倦了罗马。
Everyone knows to go there.
每个人都知道去那里。
You send them to Trier, to Segovia, to Split?
你把他们送到特里尔、塞戈维亚、斯普利特？
Let’s stick with our theme of trying to understand empire as empire while also understanding ordinary people.
让我们坚持我们的主题，即尝试理解帝国的本质，同时也理解普通人。
Yes, sure.
是的，当然。
Let’s go to Split and see the great palace of Diocletian, which is now home to some beautiful cafes and restaurants and gift shops, right inside the great courtyard where Diocletian would have greeted you if you were lucky enough to obtain an audience.
让我们去斯普利特看看伟大的戴克里先宫殿，那里现在有一些漂亮的咖啡馆、餐馆和礼品店，就在大庭院里，如果你足够幸运有观众的话，戴克里先会在那里迎接你。
This is an amazing palace because it’s a testament to an emperor who said, “I am stepping down.
这是一座令人惊叹的宫殿，因为它是一位皇帝的证明，他说：“我要下台了。
I said I was in here for a limited amount of time.
我说过我在这里的时间有限。
I now observe my term limits.”
我现在遵守我的任期限制。”
It’s the first and only time in the history of the Roman Empire, and most empires, in which a leader has said this, and I am going to retire, and retire he did, and retire to this extraordinary palace/military garrison on the coast of Croatia.
这是罗马帝国和大多数帝国历史上第一次也是唯一一次，有一位领导人说过这样的话，我要退休了，他也退休了，退休到克罗地亚海岸这座非凡的宫殿/军事驻地。
Then, okay, let’s assume that your traveler is able to cross military lines and go to some places that maybe, let’s hope, within our lifetime will once again be safe.
然后，好吧，让我们假设你的旅行者能够跨越军事防线，前往一些我们希望在我们有生之年再次安全的地方。
This is an aspirational trip.
这是一次向往的旅行。
Sure.
当然。
The last place that I would send them, again, on the theme of empire and ordinary life, is the extraordinary town of Dura-Europos, excavated by Yale University.
我要送他们的最后一个地方，再次以帝国和平凡生活为主题，是由耶鲁大学发掘的非凡小镇杜拉-欧罗波斯。
In fact, your tourist could stop briefly at the Yale Art Museum to see some things: the mithraeum, the Christian church that were excavated by Yale University in Dura and brought back to New Haven.
事实上，您的游客可以在耶鲁艺术博物馆短暂停留，参观一些东西：密特拉寺，耶鲁大学在杜拉挖掘并带回纽黑文的基督教教堂。
Dura-Europos was another frontier garrison town on the Euphrates and preserved for us because it was sacked by Rome’s one of their greatest enemies, the Aparthians, in the late 3rd century, and preserved a whole town with all of its religious diversity and ethnic diversity, including the ordinary lives of merchants who penned their graffiti accounts on the wall to people’s daily meals, and this extraordinary succession of religious buildings with which we began this conversation, a Christian church, a Jewish synagogue, and a mithraeum.
杜拉-欧罗波斯是幼发拉底河上的另一个边境驻军城镇，之所以为我们保留下来，是因为它在 3 世纪末被罗马最大的敌人之一阿帕提亚人洗劫，并保留了整个城镇的所有宗教多样性和种族多样性，包括商人的日常生活，他们在墙上写下他们的涂鸦记录人们的日常饮食，以及我们开始这次谈话的一系列非凡的宗教建筑，一座基督教教堂，一座犹太教堂犹太教堂和密特拉殿。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Again, a plug for Kim’s great new book, Surviving Rome: The Economic Lives of the Ninety Percent.
再次，这是金伟大的新书《罗马的生存：百分之九十的经济生活》的插件。
Kim Bowes, thank you very much.
金·鲍斯，非常感谢你。
Thanks so much, Tyler.
非常感谢，泰勒。