Kevin Kelly on Advice, Travel, and Tech (Ep. 178)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m chatting with Kevin Kelly.
今天我和凯文·凯利聊天。
In the best of all possible ways, Kevin is extremely difficult to describe or introduce.
在所有可能的方式中，凯文是极其难以描述或介绍的。
I pulled a little bit from Wikipedia: It says, “Kevin Kelly .
我从维基百科中摘取了一些内容：它说：“凯文·凯利。
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is the founding executive editor of Wired magazine, .
是《连线》杂志的创始执行主编。
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。
a former editor/publisher of the Whole Earth Review.
《全球评论》的前编辑/出版商。
He has also been a writer, photographer, conservationist, and student of Asian and digital culture.” Yet it still feels that barely scratches the surface.
他也是一位作家、摄影师、自然资源保护主义者以及亚洲和数字文化的学生。”但它仍然让人感觉仅仅触及表面。
Most recently, Kevin has a new book out, which I recommend: Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier.
最近，凯文出版了一本新书，我推荐这本书：《生活的绝佳建议：我希望早点知道的智慧》。
Kevin, welcome.
凯文，欢迎。
It’s real pleasure to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
I’m really looking forward to this.
我真的很期待这个。
Let’s start with some questions about your new book.
让我们从一些关于你的新书的问题开始。
Which is the piece of advice you were afraid to give and did not give?
哪一条建议是你不敢给出而没有给出的？
I’m afraid to give very much marriage counseling, things to — to run your marriage.
我不敢提供太多的婚姻咨询，以及经营婚姻的事情。
I gave one piece about every now and then rotate in letting your partner be always right.
我时不时地给你一篇文章，然后轮流让你的伴侣永远是对的。
A piece of advice that I would be hesitant to talk about is — here’s one: I think you should have as many kids as you possibly can.
我不太愿意谈论的一个建议是：我认为你应该尽可能多地生孩子。
That’s a piece of advice I did not include in the book.
这是我没有包含在书中的一条建议。
If advice is of positive expected value, why be afraid to give marital advice?
如果建议具有积极的预期价值，为什么要害怕提供婚姻建议呢？
Because I don’t have enough experience in — standing up to it.
因为我没有足够的经验来应对它。
I only put pieces of advice that I felt I could really stand by, and there were times when I doubted my own certainty about it.
我只提出一些我认为我确实可以支持的建议，有时我怀疑自己对此的确定性。
What do you feel has been the worst piece of advice you ever gave?
您认为您给出过的最糟糕的建议是什么？
Let’s see.
让我们来看看。
Something that I changed my mind about, maybe?
也许我改变了主意？
I think I advised someone when I was at Wired to accept to do some things that they were not inclined to do.
我想我在连线时曾建议某人接受做一些他们不愿意做的事情。
“Do one for the team” kind of a thing.
“为团队做一件事”之类的事情。
And I felt, in retrospect, that that was maybe dishonest, in the sense that I would not have done that myself.
回想起来，我觉得这可能是不诚实的，因为我自己不会这样做。
So I was advising somebody to do something that I would not have done.
所以我建议某人做一些我不会做的事情。
Maybe it was good for them, but I wasn’t certain about that.
也许这对他们有好处，但我对此并不确定。
So I would say that was a bad piece of advice.
所以我想说这是一个糟糕的建议。
Here’s a piece of advice; tell me if it’s good or bad: “Minimize deathbed regret.”
这是一条建议；告诉我这是好是坏：“尽量减少临终遗憾。”
I think that’s good advice.
我认为这是个好建议。
Why is it good?
为什么好呢？
Would it lead you to do too many things just so you don’t regret having missed out, but in fact a lot of it just amounts to nothing?
是否会导致你做了太多的事情，只是为了不后悔自己错过了，但事实上，很多事情都毫无意义？
Not necessarily.
未必。
I think minimizing your regrets is a good thing, and most regrets that people have are from things that they — not from things that they did, but from things that they didn’t do.
我认为尽量减少你的遗憾是一件好事，人们的大部分遗憾都来自于他们所做的事情，而不是他们做过的事情，而是来自他们没有做的事情。
I’m trying to think of somebody who really regretted having done too much in their lives.
我试图想起那些真正后悔自己在生活中做了太多事情的人。
I think I’ve not met anybody who’s ever told me that.
我想我还没有遇到过任何人告诉过我这一点。
I’ve met people who told me that they regretted not doing things.
我遇到过一些人告诉我，他们后悔没有做一些事情。
I think minimizing regret is still a good idea.
我认为减少遗憾仍然是一个好主意。
Why is the ex post perspective better than the ex ante?
为什么事后的观点比事前的观点更好？
If so many people at the end feel they haven’t done enough, at the time, they probably had pretty good reasons not to do it, right?
如果很多人最后觉得自己做得还不够，那么当时他们可能有充分的理由不这样做，对吗？
If it’s such a common phenomenon.
如果这是一个普遍现象的话。
And at the end of your life it seems like it would have been easy to have done it, because you’re no longer faced with all the costs.
在你生命的尽头，似乎很容易做到这一点，因为你不再面临所有的成本。
Yes.
是的。
I think that would be true, but I think most people wind up not doing very much not because they had good reasons to but because it was easier or that it was inconvenient at the time.
我认为这是事实，但我认为大多数人最终没有做太多事情，不是因为他们有充分的理由这样做，而是因为当时这样做更容易或不方便。
I think sometimes the best things that we do are not necessarily convenient.
我想有时候我们做的最好的事情并不一定是方便的。
I think if there was legitimate reason for not getting things done, then people probably wouldn’t have regret about it.
我想，如果有正当理由没有把事情做好，那么人们可能就不会后悔了。
I think the reason they do have regrets is that they understood that their reasons for not doing it really are not really valid.
我认为他们之所以后悔，是因为他们明白自己不这样做的理由其实并不成立。
If someone asks you for advice on “how do I get better at following advice,” what do you tell them?
如果有人向您寻求“我如何更好地遵循建议”的建议，您会告诉他们什么？
Advice?
建议？
I think a good way to use advice is to try to use it as a reminder.
我认为使用建议的一个好方法是尝试将其用作提醒。
Most of the advice — here’s a piece of advice: is that everything good has already been said, but we just need to say it again.
大多数建议 ——这里有一条建议：所有好的东西都已经说过了，但我们只需要再说一遍。
People weren’t listening.
人们没有在听。
A lot of advice is really reminders of things that we already know.
很多建议确实提醒我们已经知道的事情。
I think a good way to pay attention to advice is to encapsulate it in some way that you can remember and to remind yourself.
我认为关注建议的一个好方法是以某种你可以记住并提醒自己的方式概括它。
They really should be called, maybe, reminders.
也许它们真的应该被称为提醒。
What should institutions do to, in essence, subsidize advice or encourage it?
机构应该如何做才能从本质上补贴建议或鼓励建议？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I think — is there anything institutions can do?
我认为 — 机构能做些什么吗？
Institutions — like an educational institution, I think, it would help them — in terms of education — to work on life skills and learning how to cultivate good habits versus bad habits, trying to guide people with heuristics.
机构 ——我认为，像教育机构一样，它将帮助他们——“在教育方面”——致力于生活技能的培养，学习如何培养好习惯和坏习惯，试图用启发式的方法引导人们。
That when they confront things that are unclear, that they have a general heuristic to help them get through it.
当他们遇到不清楚的事情时，他们有一个通用的启发法来帮助他们解决问题。
That’s a kind of advice.
这是一种建议。
I think the educational system could incorporate the idea of advice into its curriculum as a way of helping young people develop these principles in their own lives that they could be reminded of.
我认为教育系统可以将建议的理念纳入其课程中，作为帮助年轻人在自己的生活中发展这些可以提醒他们的原则的一种方式。
How many people asking for advice actually want advice?
有多少寻求建议的人真正想要建议？
And to the extent they don’t, what is it they’re looking for?
如果他们不这样做，那么他们在寻找什么？
People write me for advice every day, and at least half the time, I feel maybe they want the feeling of having asked me rather than the advice.
人们每天都写信给我寻求建议，至少有一半的时间，我觉得他们可能想要的是向我询问的感觉，而不是建议。
Now I’m happy to supply them with that feeling, but maybe it’s process they’re maximizing.
现在我很高兴为他们提供这种感觉，但也许这是他们正在最大化的过程。
I think you’re right.
我认为你是对的。
I think that sometimes people are looking for confirmation about things that they’ve already decided.
我认为有时人们会寻求对他们已经决定的事情的确认。
Sometimes they’re actually looking for justification for something they’ve already decided.
有时他们实际上是在为自己已经决定的事情寻找理由。
I think sometimes they are actually looking for attention.
我认为有时他们实际上是在寻求关注。
But I think there’s a sense of, maybe, confirmation.
但我认为，也许有一种确认感。
I’m not sure how much people are actually looking for information from this.
我不确定有多少人真正从中寻找信息。
The kind of advice that I get from — people writing are usually young people who are trying to decide about where to go, what to study.
我从写作中得到的建议通常是年轻人，他们正在努力决定去哪里、学什么。
And they’re wanting to hear from an adult some sense of whether something is valuable or not, and they don’t know.
他们想从成年人那里听到一些关于某物是否有价值的感觉，但他们不知道。
That kind of advice I’m very reluctant to give, and almost never answer, because I don’t feel I know that person well enough.
我很不愿意给出这样的建议，而且几乎从不回答，因为我觉得我不够了解那个人。
I can give them a platitude (like my book is filled with), saying, “Here’s my piece of advice for a young person who is setting out — ”
我可以给他们一些陈词滥调（就像我的书里充满的那样），说：“这是我给一个正在出发的年轻人的建议 —— ”
And I would say my piece of advice to them, somebody I don’t know, is, “Try to work on an area where there’s no words for what it is that you do.” I would say that’s my advice.
我对他们（我不认识的人）的建议是，“尝试在一个无法用语言描述你所做的事情的领域工作。”我想说这是我的建议。
You said that to Noah Smith in that interview.
你在那次采访中对诺亚史密斯说了这句话。
But if I’m a young person and then I say, “Well, how do I operationalize that?
但如果我是一个年轻人，然后我会说：“那么，我该如何实施呢？
What do I do in the morning?
早上我做什么？
Do I put that on my LinkedIn profile?” How do they make that concrete?
我要把它放在我的 LinkedIn 个人资料上吗？”他们如何将其具体化？
Yes.
是的。
Basically, it’s what you’re not doing.
基本上，这是你没有做的事情。
It’s not going to be instant, but it’s a journey.
这不会是即时的，但这是一个旅程。
That’s a really important thing — is that the general drift of one’s life is going to be a direction rather than a destination.
这是一件非常重要的事情——一个人一生的总体漂移将是一个方向而不是一个目的地。
I think you say, “Well, accounting — things that I know about — are things that are probably not where I should be headed.
我想你会说，“嗯，会计 ——我所知道的事情——可能不是我应该去的方向。
Even though I may start there, that’s not where I really want to go.” I make another piece of advice, which is, “It doesn’t really matter where you really begin, because that’s not where you’re going to end up.”
尽管我可能会从那里开始，但这并不是我真正想去的地方。”我提出另一条建议，那就是，“从哪里开始并不重要，因为那不是你最终的结局。”
The idea is, “Well, I might study accounting, but I intend not to dwell there for very long, because I want to head out into the frontier where there’s something.” I would say it’s an ongoing process where you’re asking yourself, “Is this someone else’s idea of success?
这个想法是，“嗯，我可能会学习会计，但我不打算在那里呆太久，因为我想前往有东西的前沿。”我想说这是一个持续的过程，你会问自己：“这是别人对成功的看法吗？
What’s buried in me that I can do that may be a little bit different than others?”
我内心埋藏着什么，我能做的事情可能与其他人有点不同？”
Now, when you were in your twenties, you hitchhiked to work, I understand.
现在，当你二十多岁的时候，你搭便车去工作，我明白。
Do you advise the same to your grandkids (or forthcoming grandkids)?
您是否也向您的孙子（或即将到来的孙子）提出同样的建议？
It was all I could do to try and get them to ride a bicycle to work.
我所能做的就是让他们骑自行车上班。
I actually accompanied my son a couple of times — it was a pretty long haul; I have to say that.
事实上，我陪儿子去了几次——“这是一次相当长的旅程；”我必须这么说。
But I really was urging them to be independent in that sense of even getting to work.
但我确实敦促他们在工作中保持独立。
I thought a bicycle was more appropriate for where they had to go.
我认为自行车更适合他们要去的地方。
I’m not sure that they could have hitchhiked to work these days.
我不确定他们现在是否可以搭便车去上班。
I like the idea of trying to be as independent as possible when you’re young.
我喜欢年轻时尝试尽可能独立的想法。
On vanishing Asia
论正在消失的亚洲
Now, my favorite creation of yours probably is this three-volume set: It’s called Vanishing Asia.
现在，我最喜欢的你的创作可能是这套三卷本：它叫《消失的亚洲》。
If I understand correctly, it was a 50-year project based around roughly 200,000 photos; it’s three volumes.
如果我没理解错的话，这是一个为期 50 年的项目，基于大约 20 万张照片；这是三卷。
It’s one of the greatest picture books ever produced, possibly the greatest.
这是有史以来最伟大的图画书之一，甚至可能是最伟大的图画书。
That in turn makes it one of the greatest books ever produced.
这反过来又使其成为有史以来最伟大的书籍之一。
Just a few simple questions about that.
只是几个简单的问题。
Two hundred thousand photos: Where in Asia do people most like being photographed, and where do they like it the least?
二十万张照片：在亚洲，人们最喜欢在哪里拍照，最不喜欢在哪里拍照？
And why?
为什么？
First of all, the kind of photography I do is sometimes called street photography.
首先，我所做的摄影有时被称为街头摄影。
It’s candid.
这是坦诚的。
There are some portraits, but most of the time, people are often not even aware that I’m photographing them.
有一些肖像，但大多数时候，人们甚至不知道我在拍摄它们。
Other times, when I ask permission — although I would often shoot first and ask questions later.
其他时候，当我请求许可时 ——尽管我经常会先开枪，然后再问问题。
I would say, places —
我会说，地方 —
Actually, in some ways, China was very easy to photograph people without much resistance or hesitation.
事实上，从某些方面来说，中国很容易拍摄人物，没有太多的阻力或犹豫。
They seemed to be comfortable even if they weren’t that familiar with cameras.
即使他们对相机不太熟悉，他们似乎也很舒服。
I think there’s something about the sense of privacy being expanded in larger range there or their sense of privacy being smaller in that sense.
我认为，那里的隐私感在更大范围内扩大了，或者在这个意义上他们的隐私感变小了。
I think the hardest place to photograph people certainly were in some of the Islamic countries, where women were off-limits, basically, for most of photography, and even where men were shy.
我认为最难拍摄人物的地方肯定是在一些伊斯兰国家，那里的女性基本上对于大多数摄影都是禁区，甚至男性也很害羞。
Or there was some kind of a civil unrest, and so there was suspicion there.
或者有某种内乱，所以那里就有怀疑。
I’m thinking of eastern Turkey and some other places — northern Pakistan, at one point, where there was a suspicion of anybody with a camera.
我想到了土耳其东部和其他一些地方——巴基斯坦北部，曾一度怀疑有人携带相机。
In 2023, where’s the best place to see vanishing Asia now?
2023 年，现在哪里是观看正在消失的亚洲的最佳地点？
My book records the places in the world that there are still remnants of a traditional culture.
我的书记录了世界上仍有传统文化残余的地方。
The ideal place: they’re still wearing costumes.
理想的地方：他们还穿着戏服。
Because that’s the first to go — adopting machine-made Western dress, which is the cheapest clothing you can buy, is the first traditional indigenous culture to disappear.
因为这是第一个消失的——采用机制制作的西服，这是你能买到的最便宜的衣服，是第一个消失的传统土著文化。
Where are they still wearing native costumes in that way?
哪里还这样穿着土著服饰？
One is in Myanmar, where there’s a lot of very traditional culture.
一是缅甸，那里有很多非常传统的文化。
It’s one of the least developed and isolated, up in the mountains.
它是最不发达、最偏僻的山区之一。
That’s one place you could go to see vanishing Asia.
那是你可以去看看正在消失的亚洲的地方。
Even places in Afghanistan, despite the troubles in the wars — it is so poor that there are still areas that have not been developed and there’s still a lot of very traditional culture and costume there.
就连阿富汗的地方，尽管饱经战乱，但还是很穷，还有一些地区没有开发，还有很多非常传统的文化和服饰。
Of course, I don’t recommend going there, but it’s possible.
当然，我不建议去那里，但这是可能的。
Why are costumes the first thing to vanish?
为什么服装最先消失？
Because here’s what it is: the amount of effort required to make clothing by hand is so enormous.
因为事实是这样的：手工制作衣服需要付出巨大的努力。
The traditional way you make clothing is you make fibers from wool.
制作服装的传统方法是用羊毛制作纤维。
You spin the threads, then they have to make into a loom.
你纺线，然后它们必须织成织布机。
It is an enormous amount of energy to make clothing by hand.
手工制作衣服需要消耗巨大的精力。
It’s much cheaper to buy cloth.
买布料便宜多了。
That’s one of the first things that people do when they have the ability to have money, is that they buy clothing rather than make it themselves.
当人们有能力有钱时，他们做的第一件事就是购买衣服而不是自己制作。
If you’re not taking the homemade cloth and making it into your native costume, and you’re buying a shirt — it’s just easier to put on a cotton T-shirt, which you can almost get for free.
如果您不使用自制布料制作您的本土服装，而是购买衬衫 ——那么穿上棉质 T 恤会更容易，而且几乎可以免费获得。
The costumes just disappear because they’re not making the entire cloth and fabric by hand.
这些服装就消失了，因为他们不是手工制作整个布料和织物。
Other than a camera, what is it that you need to pack?
除了相机，你还需要带什么？
What can you do without that would surprise us?
如果没有这会让我们感到惊讶，你能做什么？
Yes.
是的。
I take very, very, very little, in addition to a change of clothes, which is basically all I have.
我带的东西非常非常少，除了一套换洗的衣服，这基本上就是我所有的东西了。
Some soap powder.
一些肥皂粉。
I’d have my camera equipment.
我会有我的相机设备。
These days I carry a little portable pharmacy, a medical kit, because that’s often in short supply.
这些天我带着一个小型便携式药房，一个医疗包，因为它经常供不应求。
It’s not even just for me; it’s for those around me.
这甚至不只是为了我；这是为了我周围的人。
Basic things like ibuprofen, aspirin, those kinds of stuff; antibiotics.
基本的东西，比如布洛芬、阿司匹林之类的东西；抗生素。
Things that I might need in an emergency.
我在紧急情况下可能需要的东西。
So the medical kit was one thing.
所以医疗箱是一回事。
Other .
其他 。
.
。
.
。
I had a few little — duct tape!
我有一些小胶带！
— tools that are essential to keeping things going.
— 保持事情顺利进行所必需的工具。
Some super glue.
一些强力胶。
These days, once photography turned digital, a lot of what I carry is power packs, extension cords, backup drives, and that kind of stuff.
如今，一旦摄影变成数字化，我携带的很多东西就是电源组、延长线、备份驱动器等等。
Beyond that —
除此之外 ——
Oh yes, there is one thing.
哦，是的，有一件事。
I’m sorry.
对不起。
One vital thing that I carry with me everywhere, even today, and that is mosquito netting.
即使在今天，我随身携带的一件重要物品就是蚊帐。
I have a little portable mosquito netting in my luggage at all times, because I am very allergic to mosquitoes.
我的行李里随时备有便携式蚊帐，因为我对蚊子非常过敏。
It’s not even necessarily the disease aspect, but I am allergic to them.
甚至不一定是疾病方面，但我对它们过敏。
I wake up if I’m bit.
如果我被咬了，我就会醒来。
So I put up my mosquito netting and carry it with me everywhere, and even when people say “there’s no mosquitoes here,” they’re wrong.
所以我把蚊帐挂起来并随身携带，即使人们说“这里没有蚊子”，他们也是错的。
I’ll still put it up.
我还是把它放上来吧。
What do you do for books?
你拿书做什么？
I have a Kindle, and that’s mostly what I use for books when I’m traveling.
我有一台 Kindle，我在旅行时主要用它来读书。
Before that time, I usually had a paperback.
在那之前，我通常有一本平装本。
And I also — believe it or not — read books on my phone.
而且我还 ——“不管你信不信”—— 用手机看书。
Do you ever feel that if you don’t photograph a place, you haven’t really been there?
你有没有觉得，如果你不拍一个地方，你就没有真正去过那里？
Does it hold a different status?
它有不同的地位吗？
Like you haven’t organized the information; it’s just out on Pluto somewhere?
就像你还没有整理信息一样；它就在冥王星的某个地方吗？
Yes, I did.
是的，我做到了。
When I was younger, I had a religious conversion and I decided to ride my bicycle across the US.
当我年轻的时候，我改变了宗教信仰，并决定骑自行车穿越美国。
And part of that problem — part of the thing was that I was on my way to die, and I decided to leave my camera behind for this magnificent journey of a bicycle crossing the US.
这个问题的一部分——部分是因为我快要死了，所以我决定留下我的相机，来参加这次自行车穿越美国的壮丽旅程。
It was the most difficult thing I ever did, because I was just imagining all the magnificent pictures that I could take, that I wasn’t going to take.
这是我做过的最困难的事情，因为我只是想象我可以拍摄的所有壮丽的照片，但我不会拍摄。
I took a sketchbook instead, and that appeased some of my desire to capture things visually.
我拿了一本素描本，这满足了我用视觉捕捉事物的一些欲望。
But you’re absolutely right.
但你是绝对正确的。
It was a little bit of an addiction, where the framing of a photograph was how I saw the world.
这有点让人上瘾，照片的取景就是我看待世界的方式。
Still images: I was basically, in my head, clicking — I was clicking the shutter at the right moments when something would happen.
静态图像：基本上，我在脑海中点击 —— 我在有事情发生的正确时刻点击快门。
That, I think, was not necessarily healthy — to be so dependent on that framing to enjoy the world.
我认为，如此依赖这种框架来享受世界并不一定是健康的。
I’ve learned to wean myself off from that necessity.
我已经学会让自己摆脱这种必要性。
Now I can travel with just a phone for the selfies that you might want to take.
现在我可以只带着一部手机去旅行，拍一些你可能想拍的自拍照。
Maybe the earlier habit was better.
也许早期的习惯更好。
I sometimes think your fundamental contribution, if I try to tie together all the different things you’ve done, including your very long list of reviews of documentaries, your work for the All Species Foundation, Wired, your writings on tech, your blogging (basically every day for 20 years): is your true innovation some new way of organizing information, and you’re just applying it to all these different areas?
有时我会想，如果我试图将你所做的所有不同的事情联系在一起，包括你对纪录片的长长的评论清单、你为所有物种基金会、《连线》所做的工作、你关于科技的文章、你的博客（基本上每天都写了20年），我会想你的基本贡献是：你真正的创新是组织信息的某种新方式，而你只是将其应用到所有这些不同的领域吗？
Vanishing Asia; 200,000 photos.
消失的亚洲； 200,000 张照片。
I see my skill as a packager of ideas in a very visual way.
我以非常直观的方式看待我作为创意包装者的技能。
That was the fun of Wired, was that it was absolutely experimenting with what could you do with cheap color printing.
这就是《连线》的乐趣所在，它绝对是在尝试用廉价的彩色印刷能做什么。
The web moving onto digital and the web and things like that is an extension of that kind of a packaging of ideas.
网络转向数字化和网络以及类似的事物是这种思想包装的延伸。
I’m reluctant to assign any large general thesis to all the things I’m interested in, because I think it’s just a pure reflection of my own idiosyncratic interest in the world.
我不愿意将任何大型一般性论文分配给我感兴趣的所有事物，因为我认为这纯粹反映了我自己对世界的特殊兴趣。
I’m not sure that there’s a bigger thing connecting them all together.
我不确定是否有更大的事情将它们连接在一起。
But is the bigger thing some insight about how packaging helps you frame the content, and you’re trying to teach people that, in a lot of different ways?
但更重要的是，你是否对包装如何帮助你构建内容有一些见解，而你正试图以多种不同的方式教导人们这一点？
It might be — and maybe I’m not self-aware enough to see that.
可能是 ——也许是我的自我意识不够，看不到这一点。
For me there is a joy in that marriage of text and images (and, these days, moving images).
对我来说，文本和图像（以及如今的动态图像）的结合是一种乐趣。
I do one bit of art a day.
我每天做一点艺术。
For the past year I was making it myself; this year I’m using — cogenerating with AI, posting one new image a day.
在过去的一年里，我都是自己做的；今年我正在使用 — 与人工智能联合生成，每天发布一张新图像。
There is for me a supreme joy in packaging ideas, my own or other people, in an artful way.
对我来说，以巧妙的方式包装我自己或其他人的想法是一种至高无上的乐趣。
I’m a book lover.
我是一个爱书人。
I’m a magazine lover.
我是一名杂志爱好者。
I’m a website lover.
我是一个网站爱好者。
Maybe they do — maybe that is the fundamental impetus, is presenting things that are conceptual in a visual way.
也许他们会这样做——也许这就是根本动力，是以视觉方式呈现概念性的东西。
On traveling well
关于旅行顺利
Are you happier when you travel, or do you travel for other reasons?
您旅行时更快乐，还是出于其他原因旅行？
I’m very happy when I travel.
旅行的时候我很开心。
I’m very content.
我很满足。
I think I was a little frantic.
我想我有点疯狂。
People didn’t like to travel with me, often, because I really literally was working from morning to night.
人们常常不喜欢和我一起旅行，因为我真的从早到晚都在工作。
I wasn’t relaxing, hanging around the pool.
我没有放松，在泳池边闲逛。
Even when I was visiting things, I was on the hunt for these images.
即使当我参观事物时，我也在寻找这些图像。
I’ve since learned to take a different mode.
从那以后我学会了采取不同的模式。
But I am very, very happy, because I like the kind of travel that’s not for relaxation and not so much for rejuvenation but for learning.
但我非常非常高兴，因为我喜欢这种不是为了放松、也不是为了恢复活力而是为了学习的旅行。
I’m happiest when I am encountering things I’ve never seen before, making me question and change my mind and try to understand things.
当我遇到从未见过的事物时，我感到最快乐，这让我产生疑问，改变主意并尝试理解事物。
That makes me supremely happy and content, so I can just keep going and going.
这让我非常高兴和满足，所以我可以继续前进。
Particularly in situations where I’m learning the entire time.
特别是在我一直在学习的情况下。
We’re very similar in this way, but I sometimes think most people don’t actually enjoy their so-called vacations more.
我们在这方面非常相似，但有时我认为大多数人实际上并没有更多地享受他们所谓的假期。
They don’t enjoy it when they travel.
他们在旅行时不喜欢它。
They may do it for social bonding, or they feel they’re supposed to, or they don’t know what else to do with themselves, but it’s a funny thing to spend so much money on something that makes you less happy.
他们这样做可能是为了社交，或者他们觉得自己应该这样做，或者他们不知道自己还能做什么，但花这么多钱在让你不那么开心的事情上是一件很有趣的事情。
That’s what I observe.
这就是我所观察到的。
Yes, that’s true.
是的，确实如此。
There is a kind of travel where people are being rejuvenated and restored, where they may have to relax or be pampered or in some ways enjoy a level of living that they don’t normally get to.
有一种旅行可以让人们恢复活力和恢复活力，他们可能需要放松或被宠爱，或者以某种方式享受他们通常无法达到的生活水平。
But that’s not the reason why I go out.
但这不是我出去的原因。
I head out to confront the otherness in the world.
我出发去面对世界上的异类。
To come back with a new sense of who I am, a new sense of what’s possible.
带着对我是谁、对可能性的新感觉回来。
What’s the biggest travel mistake you make repeatedly?
您在旅行中反复犯的最大错误是什么？
Trying to do too much.
试图做太多事情。
I’ve learned a little bit better, but I am very ambitious in that, particularly if I’m with other people, like my family.
我学得更好了一些，但我在这方面非常雄心勃勃，特别是当我和其他人在一起时，比如我的家人。
I have to repeatedly try to accomplish too much.
我必须反复尝试才能完成太多事情。
I’ve learned not to travel around.
我学会了不要到处旅行。
When I go somewhere, I’m very content to not travel within a country but to travel around where I am in that, to exploit that.
当我去某个地方时，我很乐意不在一个国家内旅行，而是在我所在的地方旅行，利用它。
Still, I want to keep going.
尽管如此，我还是想继续走下去。
For the sake of others and my own sake, I’ve tried to slow down a little bit.
为了别人，也为了自己，我试着放慢脚步。
But I keep making the mistake of trying to do too much.
但我一直犯着尝试做得太多的错误。
It doesn’t yet sound like a mistake to me, I have to say, right?
我不得不说，这对我来说还不是一个错误，对吧？
Well, our mistakes may not be the same.
好吧，我们的错误可能不一样。
Because there’s a value — here’s what it is, and that is something related to what I say, is that there’s a tendency to always want to keep moving, but often what I’m looking for is right next to me.
因为有一种价值观——这就是它，这与我所说的相关，那就是人们有一种总是想要继续前进的倾向，但通常我要寻找的东西就在我身边。
I can sometimes miss that ability to go deeper because I’m still traveling.
有时我会怀念那种深入探索的能力，因为我仍在旅行。
I’m still in that motion mode.
我仍然处于那种运动模式。
I sometimes think my biggest mistake is going too many times to the same places, because a city like London or New York — you’ll get a lot of good invitations.
有时我认为我最大的错误是去同一个地方太多次，因为像伦敦或纽约这样的城市 ——你会收到很多好的邀请。
It’s hard to say no to them, and you love those cities.
很难拒绝他们，而且你喜欢这些城市。
But you could just head off to, say, Caribbean coast of Honduras or something rather than going there.
但你可以直接前往洪都拉斯的加勒比海岸或其他地方，而不是去那里。
Yes.
是的。
I’m not making that mistake.
我不会犯这样的错误。
That hasn’t been a mistake, but yes, I can see that.
这不是一个错误，但是，是的，我可以看到这一点。
If you’re not making that mistake, what’s your algorithm for deciding where to travel next?
如果你没有犯这个错误，那么你决定下一步去哪里的算法是什么？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
One of them is looking for these little pockets of the world where there is more otherness than others.
其中之一正在寻找世界上比其他地方有更多差异的小地方。
I’m really interested in going places that are very different — tempered with the ease of travel.
我真的很感兴趣去那些非常不同的地方——因为旅行的便利而受到锻炼。
There are places of the world that are very different, that require girding up: you know, Sudan, Chad, whatever it is; and where it’s not going to be necessarily an easy entry, an easy time.
世界上有些地方非常不同，需要做好准备：你知道，苏丹、乍得，无论是什么；进入这里并不一定是一件容易的事，也不一定是一段轻松的时光。
I’m trying to balance the ease of getting somewhere with the surprise and value of being somewhere very, very different.
我试图在到达某个地方的便利性与到达一个非常非常不同的地方的惊喜和价值之间取得平衡。
I’m looking for those places where there’s the right combination of those.
我正在寻找那些能够正确组合这些的地方。
Here’s another systematic mistake I make: when I imagine places like that in advance, I think they’re much more difficult than they usually turn out to be.
这是我犯的另一个系统性错误：当我提前想象这样的地方时，我认为它们比通常情况下要困难得多。
That’s true.
这是真的。
I went to Gondar, Ethiopia.
我去了埃塞俄比亚的贡德尔。
At first I was thinking, “Oh, that’s so nearly impossible.
起初我在想：“哦，这几乎是不可能的。
Will I even get there?” In fact, it was all super easy and relaxing.
我还能到达那里吗？”事实上，这一切都非常轻松和轻松。
I think that is a mistake, maybe, that I make, is believing things were more difficult than they actually are if you actually get there.
我认为我可能犯了一个错误，那就是相信如果你真正到达那里，事情会比实际情况更困难。
I have a friend who keeps convincing me I should go back to Afghanistan.
我有一个朋友一直说服我应该回到阿富汗。
“It’s really perfectly — ” Well, I don’t know.
“真是太完美了 —— ”嗯，我不知道。
I’m not really sure if I’m ready for that.
我不太确定我是否已经准备好。
Paper maps or GPS?
纸质地图还是 GPS？
Which is better?
哪个更好？
GPS is better.
GPS 更好。
I have a drawer full of fabulous maps that I don’t even take with me anymore — paper maps.
我的抽屉里装满了精美的地图，但我什至不再随身携带了 —— 纸质地图。
Don’t you like the feeling that you’ve figured out where everything is when you use a paper map?
您不喜欢使用纸质地图时就知道所有东西在哪里的感觉吗？
You don’t get that from GPS?
你没有从 GPS 中得到这个吗？
I don’t get it, but I don’t miss —
我不明白，但我不怀念 ——
It’s not as important as actually knowing where I am and having a track of it.
这并不比实际知道我在哪里并跟踪它更重要。
What are the best books to read while you’re traveling?
旅行时最适合读的书有哪些？
I tend to really read about the place I’m in as much as I can.
我倾向于尽可能多地阅读有关我所在的地方的信息。
It’s really weird, because I find that often I’m not really interested or willing to read about it unless I am there.
这真的很奇怪，因为我发现除非我在场，否则我通常不会真正感兴趣或愿意阅读它。
Once I am there, I have an insatiable appetite for finding out about the history, whatever was going on, other people’s view of it, that is not present when I’m not there.
一旦我到达那里，我就会有一种永不满足的欲望，想要了解历史，无论发生了什么，其他人对它的看法，当我不在那里时，这些都是不存在的。
I tend almost exclusively to read about where I am.
我几乎只倾向于阅读有关我所在位置的信息。
I tend to read about where I’m going in advance a lot.
我倾向于提前大量阅读我要去的地方。
But once I’m there, I read for offset.
但一旦我到了那里，我就会阅读以获取补偿。
I’ll pick some classic book that has nothing to do with the place where I’m at.
我会选一些与我所在的地方无关的经典书籍。
I haven’t been able to do that.
我没能做到这一点。
That’s not how my brain works for some reason.
由于某种原因，我的大脑不是这样工作的。
I also find after I’ve been to a place, when I then process subsequent news stories about that place, I just remember them much better.
我还发现，在去过一个地方之后，当我处理有关那个地方的后续新闻报道时，我会更好地记住它们。
So one reason I go places is to be able to read news about those places and have it make some sense.
因此，我去某个地方的原因之一是能够阅读有关这些地方的新闻并使其有意义。
Absolutely, absolutely.
绝对，绝对。
And I also feel that I have a better image of its relationship with all the stuff around it, which has a huge influence.
而且我还觉得我对它与周围所有事物的关系有了更好的了解，这产生了巨大的影响。
That cartographic intelligence is really supreme, so if you’ve been to some places and you have an idea of how far away the other related places are, that gives you an intuitive sense of that news.
地图智能确实是至高无上的，所以如果你去过一些地方并且知道其他相关地点有多远，这会让你对这个新闻有一个直观的感觉。
It’s absolutely true that that is a way —
确实，这是一种方法 ——
And there’s an interest, too, because I’ve been there and so I’m curious about — it’s like having met someone: you’re vested into their story.
而且也有兴趣，因为我去过那里，所以我很好奇 —— 就像遇到了某人：你融入了他们的故事。
After visiting a country deeply, you’re now vested into their story.
深入访问一个国家后，您现在已经融入了他们的故事。
Which is your favorite part of India?
你最喜欢印度的哪个地方？
One way to answer that is where have I returned to the most.
回答这个问题的一种方法是我最常去哪里。
And that would be Rajasthan.
那就是拉贾斯坦邦。
That was because it was the most colorful, photogenic, (in some ways) intact of the places.
那是因为它是这些地方中色彩最丰富、最上镜、（在某些方面）完好无损的地方。
My second favorite is Kerala, for a similar reason.
出于类似的原因，我第二喜欢的是喀拉拉邦。
Those two areas I’ve returned to the most often because there was, photographically for me, this little bit of a kind of a vanishing Asia: the intact traditions, the culture, the ceremonies, the festivals, everyday dress was supreme.
这两个地区是我最常去的地方，因为从摄影角度来说，那里有点像正在消失的亚洲：完整的传统、文化、仪式、节日、日常着装是至高无上的。
I’m sorry to say, I’d probably go back again there before other places in India.
我很遗憾地说，我可能会在印度其他地方之前再次回到那里。
Traveling with kids: What’s the secret?
带孩子旅行：有什么秘密？
I know you’ve done it.
我知道你已经做到了。
Many people are afraid.
很多人都害怕。
What’s your advice, if I may put it that way?
如果我可以这么说的话，你有什么建议？
The advice is simply: do it.
建议很简单：去做吧。
For us, there were far less issues or trouble than we imagined.
对于我们来说，问题或麻烦比我们想象的要少得多。
I know one concern people have is about health.
我知道人们关心的问题之一是健康。
Frankly, we’ve never had any kind of disaster, but I can see why that might be very stressful if there were.
坦率地说，我们从未经历过任何类型的灾难，但我可以理解为什么如果发生的话，压力可能会很大。
I don’t see the difficulty in it.
我看不出其中有什么困难。
It has been very, very easy to do it.
做到这一点非常非常容易。
We had our kids in very, very remote places.
我们的孩子住在非常非常偏远的地方。
I would say one thing: that when they were younger, they were often overwhelmed by the stuff.
我想说一件事：当他们年轻的时候，他们经常被这些东西压垮。
I took my young girls by myself to parts of Tibet when it was very, very rough and tumble, and they were a little intimidated by the huge Tibetans and the strangeness of it.
我带着我的年轻女儿们去了西藏的一些地方，当时西藏的情况非常非常恶劣，翻腾不定，她们对庞大的西藏人和它的陌生感感到有点害怕。
And I felt in some ways it was a failure, because they would rather play cards on the train than look out the window.
我觉得从某些方面来说这是一个失败，因为他们宁愿在火车上打牌也不愿看窗外。
It was like, “You’re missing this.
就像是，“你错过了这个。
This is the Himalayas,” whatever.
这是喜马拉雅山，”无论如何。
What I found out was, later on — they didn’t have enough to process what it was.
后来我发现——他们没有足够的能力来处理它是什么。
And it was later on that those trips became more and more important to them as they were able to digest and process it.
后来，这些旅行对他们来说变得越来越重要，因为他们能够消化和处理它。
Even though they maybe didn’t appreciate it at the time, or seem to be paying attention, they were actually reprocessing later as they grew up, and those trips became more important to them than they were at the time.
尽管他们当时可能并不欣赏，或者似乎没有注意到，但随着他们长大，他们实际上正在重新处理，这些旅行对他们来说比当时更重要。
I would say one thing, one piece of advice, is — if your kids don’t seem to appreciate it, it doesn’t matter.
我想说的一件事，一条建议是，如果你的孩子似乎不欣赏它，那也没关系。
They’ll probably appreciate it later on.
他们以后可能会感激的。
And as you reprocess your own travel experiences, are you more impressed or struck by the unity of mankind or the diversity?
当你重新审视自己的旅行经历时，你对人类的统一性还是多样性更印象深刻或印象深刻？
Yes, that’s a good question.
是的，这是一个好问题。
I had an epiphany recently about that and that was — Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, which he never really made into a pyramid but we all imagine as a pyramid, and at the base is satisfying our need for shelter and clothing and basic water and food.
我最近对此有了顿悟，那就是马斯洛的需求层次，他从未真正将其做成金字塔，但我们都想象成金字塔，底层满足我们对住房、衣服以及基本水和食物的需求。
At that lower level, the entire world is converging on uniform, basic needs.
在这个较低的层面上，整个世界都集中在统一的基本需求上。
Everybody in the world wants to live in an airtight, air-conditioned concrete box that has Wi-Fi, and it’s looking very similar.
世界上的每个人都想住在一个密封、有空调、有 Wi-Fi 的混凝土盒子里，而且它看起来非常相似。
But I believe that at the higher levels of actualization and what it all means, I’m seeing a diversity in the world.
但我相信，在更高的实现水平和这一切的意义下，我看到了世界的多样性。
I think there’s a commonality that we all share fundamentally, more than ever, at the base level of our genetic bodies and basic human needs.
我认为，在我们的遗传体和人类基本需求的基础层面上，我们比以往任何时候都更具有根本上的共同点。
There’s weirdly a diversity of differences in what it means to us and how we make value and the kinds of things that we find important or not.
奇怪的是，它对我们的意义、我们如何创造价值以及我们认为重要或不重要的事物种类存在着各种各样的差异。
So yes, there’s two things going on.
所以是的，有两件事正在发生。
There’s this huge commonality and then there is this difference that we find important.
既有巨大的共性，也有我们认为很重要的差异。
I think travel has helped me to see just how much virtually all squabbles are petty squabbles.
我认为旅行帮助我认识到几乎所有的争吵都是小事。
You go to other places and you hear them talk about what they’re squabbling about: like, “Oh, what kind of music should you play in the church ceremony?” You think of it, “Well, that’s a petty squabble” — and you’re right, but your own squabbles are not less petty.
你去其他地方，你会听到他们谈论他们正在争吵的事情：比如，“哦，你应该在教堂仪式上演奏什么样的音乐？”你想了想，“好吧，那是一场小争吵” ——你是对的，但你自己的争吵也同样是小事。
That’s the unity I come away thinking more about after a lot of trips.
这就是我在多次旅行后更多地思考的团结。
I think for me, the overwhelming lesson about those kinds of travel for me has been how — what’s the word I want?
我认为对我来说，这类旅行给我的压倒性的教训是如何 —— 我想要什么词？
Basically, most people in the world are fairly racist, sexist, suspicious of strangers, and stuff.
基本上，世界上大多数人都相当种族主义、性别歧视、对陌生人持怀疑态度等等。
Relative to the rest of the world, the US is doing pretty good.
相对于世界其他地区，美国的表现相当不错。
That’s one of the things I come back — the general thing that we’re trying to move from was the norm for most of the world, for most of history.
这是我回来的事情之一——我们试图摆脱的普遍现象是世界上大部分地区、历史上大部分地区的常态。
The kind of elevated society that we want is, compared to the rest of the world, a pretty good deal.
与世界其他地方相比，我们想要的那种高尚社会已经相当不错了。
On tech
论科技
Some tech questions.
一些技术问题。
What in tech should we be paying more attention to?
科技方面我们应该更加关注什么？
Tech, in general .
一般来说，科技。
.
。
.
。
I think —
我认为 —
Let me put it this way.
让我这样说吧。
There was a technology that I thought was 100 years off that I’m now convinced is much closer than I thought, and that is the brain-computer interface.
有一项我认为还需要 100 年才能实现的技术，但现在我确信它比我想象的要近得多，这就是脑机接口。
Elon Musk’s Neuralink and others.
埃隆·马斯克的 Neuralink 等。
There’s a whole field of people who are doing — and having gone to visit to see their work, I’ve been really shocked that they’re much further along in being able to bypass our fingers in order to actually communicate via computer.
有很多人都在做——并且去参观了他们的工作，我真的很震惊，他们在能够绕过我们的手指，通过计算机进行实际交流方面取得了更大的进步。
I thought, again, that that was going to be way off, but it looks like that could be within 25 years, which was a shock to me.
我再次认为那是遥不可及的事，但看起来可能会在 25 年内实现，这让我感到震惊。
I would say that’s one place you might be looking for things that could happen kind of suddenly, even though the research has been going on for decades.
我想说，尽管这项研究已经进行了几十年，但你可能会在这个地方寻找可能突然发生的事情。
And that would really shake things up if that was to happen.
如果这种情况发生的话，那确实会带来很大的震动。
How would that change people’s lives?
这将如何改变人们的生活？
Say your grandkids.
说你的孙子。
How will it matter for them?
这对他们来说有何影响？
I think at first, of course, it’s going to be mostly (and that’s what they’re aiming at) is in disabled —
当然，我认为首先大部分（这就是他们的目标）是残疾人 ——
Oh, sure.
哦，当然。
But for nondisabled individuals.
但对于非残疾人来说。
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
How will it matter?
这有什么关系呢？
I think what it matters is a way of auxiliary — I don’t think it’s going to necessarily replace typing, but I think it’ll be another way of interfacing with the technology that we want to do.
我认为重要的是一种辅助方式 —— 我认为它不一定会取代打字，但我认为这将是与我们想要做的技术交互的另一种方式。
One of the dreams that Jaron Lanier and others have had with virtual reality is being able to create — paint — things as fast as we could think of them.
Jaron Lanier 和其他人对虚拟现实的梦想之一就是能够以我们能想到的速度创造“——”绘画“——事物。
There could be a way in which we are generating content faster and more easily than the laborious way we have right now of having to put things into language — there may be some way to post-symbolically skip some of the language framing that we do to make, say, an image.
可能有一种方法可以让我们更快、更容易地生成内容，而不是现在必须将内容放入语言中的费力方式——可能有某种方法可以后符号地跳过我们制作图像时所做的一些语言框架。
This is something I’ve learned recently about making daily AI art, which is that theoretically these machines can make any possible image.
这是我最近在制作日常人工智能艺术时学到的东西，理论上这些机器可以制作任何可能的图像。
The real shock that we’ve had right now is we now suddenly have the conversational user interface.
我们现在真正感到震惊的是我们突然有了对话式用户界面。
We now have an ability to use conversation as an interface to the AI capabilities.
我们现在能够使用对话作为人工智能功能的接口。
Here’s what happens: is we’re using a conversational interface to try to make art, but there’s a lot of art that humans create that can’t be reduced to language.
发生的事情是这样的：我们正在使用对话界面来尝试创作艺术，但人类创造的很多艺术无法简化为语言。
You can’t get there by using language.
你无法通过语言到达那里。
There’s art that I’ve been trying to make, and I realize I’m never going to be able to make it with an AI because I need language to get there.
我一直在尝试创作一些艺术作品，但我意识到我永远无法用人工智能来创作它，因为我需要语言才能实现。
There’s lots of things that we can’t get to with language.
有很多事情是我们无法用语言来表达的。
That’s one way in which this human-computer interface could make a new frontier, is enabling us to do things where we can bypass language and work with maybe emotions or other intuitions or things that we don’t even have language for because we’re actually tapping into the brain directly.
这是人机界面可以开辟新领域的一种方式，它使我们能够绕过语言，用情感或其他直觉或我们甚至没有语言的东西来做事情，因为我们实际上是直接接触大脑。
But do you ever find that, say, you need to write a piece to figure out what you think about something, or maybe it’s the act of painting that is giving you the idea of the image, and there’s no way to reverse engineer that?
但是你是否发现，比如说，你需要写一篇文章来弄清楚你对某件事的想法，或者也许是绘画的行为给了你图像的想法，而没有办法对其进行逆向工程？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I write in order to think; that’s how I think.
我写作是为了思考；我就是这么想的。
I think by writing.
我通过写作来思考。
I don’t have the ideas and then sit down and try to write them.
我没有想法，然后坐下来尝试写下来。
I use writing to get the ideas.
我用写作来获取想法。
I think painting certainly may be part of that.
我认为绘画肯定是其中的一部分。
Or rendering it — making it visual.
或者渲染它 ——使其可视化。
That’s the point: is that that may be something that we can do without having to go through language or our fingers to get there.
这就是重点：这可能是我们不需要通过语言或手指就能做到的事情。
For the grandchildren, this ability for maybe playing games or maybe creating things or maybe walking through this virtual metaverse space — this may be an interface to it that’s very different from the interfaces that we have right now.
对于孙子们来说，这种能力可能可以玩游戏，也可以创造东西，或者可以漫步在这个虚拟的虚拟宇宙空间 ——这可能是一个与我们现在拥有的界面非常不同的界面。
How will recent developments in AI alter our understanding of God and religion?
人工智能的最新发展将如何改变我们对上帝和宗教的理解？
I think the moment that one of our created beings says, “I have a soul — ”
我想当我们的一个创造物说：“我有一个灵魂 —— ”的那一刻
They’ve said it already, right?
他们已经说过了，对吧？
I don’t believe them, but they already say it if you ask them to.
我不相信他们，但如果你问他们，他们已经这么说了。
Right.
正确的。
Exactly, right.
完全正确。
“I have a soul and you have to believe me, and here’s why I believe it,” and they want to be baptized.
“我有灵魂，你必须相信我，这就是我相信的原因，”他们想要受洗。
I think that is really, really important.
我认为这真的非常非常重要。
In fact, I’ve been working on this project called a Catechism for Robots.
事实上，我一直在致力于这个名为“机器人教义问答”的项目。
It’s half jest, but it’s 80 percent serious about trying to have theological, cosmic answers for the beings that we create when they want to know why we created them and to what purpose.
这虽然是半开玩笑的说法，但当我们创造的生物想知道我们为什么创造它们以及创造它们的目的时，尝试为它们找到神学的、宇宙的答案，这是 80% 认真的。
I think the role of AI — first of all, I think it’s instrumental in us deciding who we are and who we want to be.
我认为人工智能的作用——首先，我认为它有助于我们决定我们是谁以及我们想成为谁。
I think that will impact our ideas of God and our understandings, because we are going to be gods ourselves.
我认为这将影响我们对上帝的看法和理解，因为我们自己也将成为神。
That’s the major thing: is that our act of creating these beings — we will be godlike.
这是最重要的事情：我们创造这些生物的行为 ——我们将像神一样。
That’s going to illuminate to us our notions of what being godlike is like.
这将向我们阐明什么是神一样的概念。
Christianity in particular: How will it change?
特别是基督教：它将如何改变？
The idea of a demiurge will become more important?
造物主的想法会变得更加重要吗？
I don’t know how Christianity itself will change.
我不知道基督教本身会如何改变。
I think that — the Christian creed is that humans are made in the image of God.
我认为基督教的信条是人类是按照上帝的形象创造的。
Therefore, since God is a creator and made other beings like us, that this could reinforce the idea of demigods and that we are godlike: we’re fulfilling the commandment to be like God by creating other beings.
因此，既然上帝是创造者，创造了像我们一样的其他生物，这可以强化半神和我们是神一样的观念：我们通过创造其他生物来履行像上帝一样的诫命。
We might have to have some — what’s the word I want — guidance, some principles about “here’s how to be a good god, based on biblical principles.” That’s a possibility.
我们可能需要一些 ——“我想要什么词” —— 指导，一些关于“如何根据圣经原则成为好神”的原则。这是一种可能性。
I think one of the things we see the trends in Christianity is an increasing number of sects and divisions and schisms, and so it’s possible that there could be a sect derived around AI and the ability of making and guiding and creating other beings.
我认为我们在基督教中看到的趋势之一是越来越多的教派、分裂和分裂，因此可能存在一个围绕人工智能以及制造、指导和创造其他生物的能力衍生的教派。
What would be a technology that you refuse to use, and why?
您拒绝使用的技术是什么？为什么？
Weaponization of technology is something that I shy from.
技术武器化是我回避的事情。
I personally am not going to use technologies like a gun — like a better gun.
我个人不会使用像枪这样的技术——就像更好的枪一样。
Oh, sure.
哦，当然。
In more ordinary life — say, I won’t use a microwave.
在更平常的生活中 ——比如说，我不会使用微波炉。
I feel it makes people lazy in their cooking.
我觉得这让人们在做饭上变得懒惰。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
What’s your analog?
你的类比是什么？
I also won’t kill someone with an atom bomb, but —
我也不会用原子弹杀人，但是 ——
I can tell you something right now, is I don’t have social media on my phone.
我现在可以告诉你一件事，我的手机上没有社交媒体。
But you use it.
但你用它。
But I use it.
但我用它。
I use it on my desktop, but I don’t use it on my phone.
我在桌面上使用它，但不在手机上使用它。
Is there a technology that I would not use?
有没有我不会使用的技术？
OK, I don’t want to be the first to use the brain-computer interface.
好吧，我不想成为第一个使用脑机接口的人。
I’m not going to be the first to be checked in.
我不会是第一个被签到的人。
I might use it if my friends all used it and they lived.
如果我的朋友都使用它并且他们还活着，我可能会使用它。
I think I’d be very hesitant to use certain kinds of genetic germline alterations.
我想我会非常犹豫是否使用某些类型的遗传种系改变。
I’m not sure I would say no, but I would certainly be very, very, very hesitant about that.
我不确定我会拒绝，但我肯定会非常非常犹豫。
I think we have to be very cautious.
我认为我们必须非常谨慎。
So there are things that I’m cautious about, and I would say, “Well, let me see how — ”
所以有些事情我很谨慎，我会说，“好吧，让我看看如何 - ”
This is the Amish.
这就是阿米什人。
This is the Amish take on how you do it.
这是阿米什人对如何做这件事的看法。
“Let me see how other people are doing it and how it affects their lives before I decide to do it.” And If there was generally positive results in their own lives and around them as society, then I might adopt it.
“在我决定这样做之前，让我看看其他人是如何做的，以及这对他们的生活有何影响。”如果他们自己的生活以及他们周围的社会普遍产生积极的结果，那么我可能会采用它。
I can’t think of something that I absolutely would not do at all.
我想不出有什么是我绝对不会做的。
What’s the most surprising fact you know about the Amish?
关于阿米什人，您所知道的最令人惊讶的事实是什么？
They are adopting cell phones.
他们正在采用手机。
Let me caveat that.
让我警告一下。
The Amish decide to use technology parish by parish.
阿米什人决定逐个教区使用技术。
It’s a very decentralized way, and there’s many different varieties and many different sects.
这是一种非常去中心化的方式，而且有很多不同的品种和很多不同的流派。
Generally, the most liberal ones are more at the core of Lancaster County and where the Amish began.
一般来说，最自由的人更多地位于兰开斯特县的核心地带，也是阿米什人的发源地。
Some of the most rigid and ones that are more old-fashioned are actually further away, like in upstate New York or other places.
一些最死板、更老式的地方实际上距离更远，比如纽约州北部或其他地方。
But generally they have decided that cell phones are appropriate technology.
但总的来说，他们认为手机是合适的技术。
(And they often are flip phones; they’re not even smartphones.) And that it’s appropriate for them, because they find that it keeps their families together.
（它们通常是翻盖手机；它们甚至不是智能手机。）而且它适合他们，因为他们发现它可以让他们的家人团聚。
What they’re doing is they’re spreading around the country buying up cheap farmland, and they have a certain number of families they need to have as a minimum, and to keep in contact with their families further back away, from where they have left, they’re finding that the cell phones help strengthen their families.
他们正在做的是，他们在全国各地购买廉价的农田，他们至少需要有一定数量的家庭，并且为了与远离他们离开的地方的家人保持联系，他们发现手机有助于巩固他们的家庭。
That’s a surprising fact that most people don’t know.
这是一个大多数人都不知道的令人惊讶的事实。
Now, as you know, non-Amish birth rates are both low and falling.
现在，如您所知，非阿米什人的出生率很低，而且还在下降。
Yes.
是的。
What is the mechanism that caps the percentage of Amish in, say, the American population?
例如，限制阿米什人在美国人口中所占比例的机制是什么？
Or does it just asymptotically approach one?
或者它只是渐近地逼近一个？
One of the scenarios for the future of the US is that, basically, the Amish take over all the farmland.
美国未来的情景之一是，阿米什人基本上会占领所有农田。
Because right now the Amish are continuing to expand.
因为现在阿米什人正在继续扩张。
Their attrition rate is still very — attrition meaning the number of kids that they have that don’t stay with the church — it’s still only a few percent.
他们的流失率仍然非常低——“流失意味着他们有没有留在教会的孩子的数量”——仍然只有百分之几。
Amish always buy land.
阿米什人总是购买土地。
They’ve never sold land.
他们从未出售过土地。
They’re still expanding.
他们仍在扩张。
And it’s possible to imagine them taking over the rural areas over time.
可以想象随着时间的推移他们会接管农村地区。
I don’t see much of a cap right now in the current birth rates that they have, given the birth rates of the rest of the US.
考虑到美国其他地区的出生率，我认为他们目前的出生率没有太大上限。
I think it’s a very viable scenario is that most of the rural farmlands is being run by the Amish.
我认为一个非常可行的情况是，大部分农村农田都由阿米什人经营。
You don’t think there’s a scaling problem?
您不认为存在扩展问题吗？
If someone says, “Oh, America: it could have 60 million Amish.” Do you think that’s an equilibrium, at least potentially?
如果有人说：“哦，美国：它可能有 6000 万阿米什人。”您认为这是否是一种平衡，至少是潜在的平衡？
Or does being Amish somehow fray when the numbers are so large — such a diverse group, they have so much contact with the outside world?
或者，当阿米什人的数量如此之大——一个如此多元化的群体，他们与外界的联系如此之多时，阿米什人是否会以某种方式感到不安？
Yes.
是的。
Well, there may be limits because the big cash crop for most Amish is actually dairy, and there’s a limit on the amount of dairy that we’re going to consume.
嗯，可能存在限制，因为大多数阿米什人的主要经济作物实际上是乳制品，而且我们要消费的乳制品数量是有限的。
But they’re really good at the small holdings, animal raising, combined with raising the food for the animals.
但他们确实擅长小型农场、动物饲养以及为动物饲养食物。
So I would say, maybe as long as there’s actually consumption of meat and animal products, the Amish —
所以我想说，也许只要真正消费肉类和动物产品，阿米什人 ——
But there might be some limit to the amount that we as a society are consuming.
但我们作为一个社会的消费量可能存在一些限制。
Perhaps if there was really good animal-cell-based meat prevalent and animal-cell-based milk prevalent, maybe then the Amish are capped.
或许，如果真的有优质的动物细胞肉类和动物细胞牛奶普遍存在，那么阿米什人可能就会受到限制。
How would society most change if we simply could double or triple our amount of long-term thinking?
如果我们能够将长期思考的数量增加一倍或三倍，社会将如何发生最大的变化？
I am involved with this group called the Long Now Foundation, where we’re trying to promote long-term thinking.
我加入了一个名为“Long Now Foundation”的组织，我们致力于促进长期思考。
I think the way it would change is that there would be a couple of things.
我认为它会改变的方式是会有几件事。
One is I think we would collectively, maybe mostly through government, have more long-term research involved, and the benefits of that would be spilling over to everything.
一是我认为我们将集体（也许主要是通过政府）参与更多长期研究，其好处将波及一切。
Most science experiments today last as long as a PhD, which is like four years, and there’s very little really long-range research being done.
如今，大多数科学实验的持续时间与博士学位一样长，大约四年，而且很少有真正的长期研究正在进行。
Then, secondly, there’s very little projects that might take 25 years or more to do, whether infrastructural or otherwise, and more of those — garnered by the number of people who understand that there’s a benefit to having payoffs come not just for the current generation but future generations — would allow longer-term, maybe even bigger projects to become more normal and conventional than they are right now.
其次，很少有项目可能需要 25 年或更长的时间才能完成，无论是基础设施还是其他项目，而更多的项目“——由很多人明白，让回报不仅对当代人而且对子孙后代都有好处”——将使更长期、甚至更大的项目变得比现在更加正常和传统。
Then, thirdly, I think thinking in terms of generations rather than just the immediate next quarter or next year — I think that also would enable us to manage the planet in a better way, because lots of the planetary things that we’re interested in and paying attention to have a longer-range dynamic than just the immediate year or two: the “short now,” we call it.
然后，第三，我认为从几代人的角度思考，而不仅仅是下个季度或明年 ——我认为这也将使我们能够以更好的方式管理地球，因为我们感兴趣并关注的许多行星事物都具有更长期的动态，而不仅仅是当前的一两年：我们称之为“短期”。
For individuals, I think that that’s not maybe necessarily going to change their own lives, but I think it changes our lives at the civilizational level.
对于个人来说，我认为这不一定会改变他们自己的生活，但我认为它会在文明层面改变我们的生活。
Of all the people you have known, who is it that has handled power the best?
在你认识的所有人中，谁是最擅长掌握权力的人？
People that I have known.
我认识的人。
I know Jerry Brown a little bit, and I’ve been very — I was very impressed with him.
我对杰里·布朗有一点了解，而且我对他印象非常深刻。
He was in the leadership in California and was doing well.
他在加利福尼亚州担任领导职务并且表现良好。
Here’s somebody.
这里有人。
I know Jeff Bezos, and I’ve actually been very impressed with Jeff Bezos.
我认识杰夫·贝佐斯，而且实际上杰夫·贝佐斯给我留下了深刻的印象。
The more I know him, the more I admire him.
我越了解他，就越钦佩他。
I think he’s very fast to own up to mistakes and to take responsibility.
我认为他很快就会承认错误并承担责任。
I think he is very aware and sensible.
我认为他是一个非常有觉知和明智的人。
In my own observation, I think he’s working very hard to deal with the responsibility that great power comes from.
根据我自己的观察，我认为他正在非常努力地承担巨大权力所带来的责任。
And so I would say Jeff Bezos.
所以我会说杰夫·贝佐斯。
What film has most expanded your conception of what reality is?
哪部电影最拓展了您对现实的理解？
Most expanded my conception of reality.
大多数扩展了我对现实的概念。
Boy, I’m not sure that I’ve seen a film that’s changed my idea about reality.
天哪，我不确定我是否看过一部改变了我对现实的看法的电影。
There are actual — after all, they’re just fictional.
确实有——毕竟，它们只是虚构的。
I would say seeing 2001 by Kubrick expanded my idea of what’s possible.
我想说，观看库布里克的《2001》扩展了我对可能性的认识。
Maybe that’s — an aspect of reality is believing what’s possible.
也许这就是——现实的一个方面就是相信一切皆有可能。
I found that vision was exhilarating at the time; and this is pre–Star Wars.
我当时发现这种愿景是令人振奋的；这是星球大战之前的情况。
But I have to say Star Wars itself, the idea of the worn and old future: that shifted my idea and expanded my possibilities, my idea of what’s possible, as well.
但我不得不说《星球大战》本身，关于破旧而古老的未来的想法：它改变了我的想法并扩展了我的可能性，以及我对可能性的想法。
I think maybe the idea of a future that was worn and used and not just streamlined — I think that that did shift my idea of reality.
我想也许未来的想法是被磨损和使用的，而不仅仅是流线型的 —— 我认为这确实改变了我对现实的看法。
Which is the most underrated documentary?
最被低估的纪录片是哪部？
There was a documentary called King of Kong, which was about the champion — the Donkey Kong video game.
有一部纪录片叫《金刚》，讲的是冠军——大金刚电子游戏。
What was underrated about it and what was fabulous about this movie was that there was a villain.
这部电影被低估的地方和令人惊叹的地方是有一个恶棍。
There’s not that many documentaries that have villains, and here was a villain, and they were filming — the villain basically gave them access to his whole side of it, and even though he was incredibly villainous and scheming and just underhanded, he didn’t think he was, but it was very obvious to everybody else he was.
有反派的纪录片并不多，而这里有一个反派，他们正在拍摄——这个反派基本上让他们看到了他的全部一面，尽管他极其邪恶、诡计多端、阴险狡诈，但他并不认为他是，但对其他人来说，他是非常明显的。
That made a really fabulous documentary, because you’ve got a villain in there and you’re seeing the villain the whole time.
这真是一部非常棒的纪录片，因为里面有一个恶棍，而且你一直都在看到这个恶棍。
So I think that’s underrated.
所以我认为这被低估了。
I love that movie, by the way.
顺便说一句，我喜欢那部电影。
I also quite like Werner Herzog’s — the German-language version of Little Dieter Needs to Fly.
我也很喜欢沃纳·赫尔佐格的《小迪特需要飞翔》的德语版本。
Do you know that one?
你认识那个人吗？
I’ve only seen the English version of it.
我只看过它的英文版。
Why is the German version better?
为什么德语版本更好？
Just deeper, more authentic, more morally ambiguous.
只是更深刻、更真实、在道德上更模糊。
OK.
好的。
It feels more Herzogian.
感觉更像赫尔佐格式的。
So that would be a favorite of mine.
所以这将是我的最爱。
What is something unusual that you measure about yourself?
您衡量自己有哪些不寻常的地方？
I and my partner, Gary Wolf, we began the quantified self movement: this idea of using technology to measure ourselves, to quantify our lives, to do things.
我和我的搭档加里·沃尔夫（Gary Wolf）开始了量化自我运动：利用技术来衡量我们自己、量化我们的生活、做事的想法。
And I was very much doing that in the beginning.
一开始我就非常这么做。
And I don’t measure almost anything about myself these days.
这些天我几乎不衡量自己的任何事情。
The reason why I shifted in that was, it turned out to be very easy to generate the data, the metrics, the information, the measurements; but it became really, really hard to make sense out of it, to get meaning out of it.
我转向这一点的原因是，事实证明生成数据、指标、信息、测量非常容易；但要理解它的意义、理解它的意义真的变得非常非常困难。
What it needed is what we’re about to have, which is, it needed AIs to digest the huge ocean of data that was generating to really make sense of the patterns and things that are not obvious, that we can’t see, that aren’t intuitive.
它所需要的正是我们即将拥有的，也就是说，它需要人工智能来消化正在生成的海量数据，以真正理解那些不明显、我们看不到、不直观的模式和事物。
At a certain level, what I discovered — like, say, counting my steps — is I actually counted it long enough and measured it long enough that I can actually, to almost within 100 steps, tell you how many steps I took today, because I was correlating all those measurements with my own experience.
在某种程度上，我发现——比如，数我的步数——我实际上数得足够长，测量得也足够长，以至于我实际上可以在几乎 100 步之内告诉你我今天走了多少步，因为我将所有这些测量结果与我自己的经验联系起来。
To go beyond that, it just needs cheap, ubiquitous AI to monitor this stream of data and to try and help extract out some meaning from that.
除此之外，它只需要廉价、无处不在的人工智能来监控这些数据流，并尝试帮助从中提取一些意义。
That has not yet happened, and because it hasn’t, I haven’t been measuring very much at all about my life.
那还没有发生，正因为它还没有发生，所以我根本没有对我的生活进行太多的衡量。
Way back when, why is it you dropped out of University of Rhode Island?
回想一下，你为什么从罗德岛大学退学？
Yes.
是的。
This was in 1971.
这是1971年的事。
Had there been at that time a gap year or internships, I would have done that, and that’s what I needed, and I would have gone back, I suspect.
如果当时有间隔年或实习，我就会这样做，这就是我所需要的，我怀疑我会回去。
But there wasn’t such a thing, and it felt like grade 13.
但并没有这样的事情，感觉就像13年级一样。
I was sitting in the same desks with the same routine, and what I needed was to do a project.
我坐在同一张桌子上，做着同样的事情，我需要的是做一个项目。
I needed to just get out of my seat and do stuff, and there wasn’t any option at that time to do that, so I dropped out.
我需要离开座位去做一些事情，但当时没有任何选择，所以我退出了。
In retrospect, I regret having even spent that one year there.
回想起来，我什至后悔在那里度过了那一年。
What was the job you took after dropping out?
退学后你从事什么工作？
My job was to go to Asia and to photograph, and I didn’t know what I was going to do there, what I was going to photograph, but I wanted to be a photographer.
我的工作是去亚洲拍照，我不知道我要在那里做什么，要拍什么，但我想成为一名摄影师。
I actually called up National Geographic.
我实际上打电话给国家地理杂志。
I was like a 19-year-old whatever.
无论如何，我就像一个19岁的人。
I called up National Geographic and I said, “I’m going to go to Taiwan and Japan.
我打电话给国家地理频道，我说：“我要去台湾和日本。
Do you need any photographs?” I found a photo editor in the phone book.
需要照片吗？”我在电话簿中找到了一个照片编辑器。
And he graciously said, “You know, it doesn’t work that way, but when you come back, show me your photographs and we’ll take it from there.” He was good to his word, and I did.
他和蔼地说：“你知道，这样不行，但是当你回来时，给我看你的照片，我们就会从那里拿走它。”他说到做到，我也做到了。
I decided to photograph and become a photographer.
我决定拍照并成为一名摄影师。
That was what my dream was.
这就是我的梦想。
I hesitate to use such a general phrase, but the world of tech: what was your first entry point into that?
我不太愿意使用这样一个笼统的短语，但科技世界：你进入科技世界的第一个切入点是什么？
I had a hippieish attitude, and when I was dropping out, I was very influenced by the Whole Earth Catalog.
我有一种嬉皮士的态度，当我退学时，我深受《全球概览》的影响。
I believed what it said, that you should invent your own life and that all these things were possible.
我相信它所说的，你应该创造你自己的生活，所有这些事情都是可能的。
I had a very arm’s-length — I owned nothing.
我对我保持距离——我一无所有。
I was very suspicious of computers, which my dad worked with.
我对我父亲使用的电脑非常怀疑。
Kind of the “small is beautiful” take.
有点“小即是美”的感觉。
Thoreau was my hero in high school: building your own house, living in a little simple life.
梭罗是我高中时的英雄：建造自己的房子，过着简单的生活。
That, I believed, was my destination.
我相信，那就是我的目的地。
That changed when I came back from traveling; I “graduated” from traveling and decided to try to make a living somehow or other, and I decided — I did a mail-order catalog of travel books.
当我旅行回来后，情况发生了变化。我从旅行中“毕业”，决定尝试以某种方式谋生，我决定 — 我制作了一份旅行书籍的邮购目录。
I had discovered all these really interesting books when I was traveling that were not available in the US.
我在旅行时发现了所有这些在美国找不到的非常有趣的书。
There was this guy named Rick Steves who was self-publishing a book about Europe: Europe through the Back Door.
有一个名叫里克·史蒂夫斯（Rick Steves）的人正在自行出版一本关于欧洲的书：通过后门的欧洲。
There was Tony and Maureen Wheeler, who had a little stapled book called Lonely Planet: Shoestring Guide to Southeast Asia.
托尼·惠勒和莫琳·惠勒夫妇有一本装订的小书，名叫《孤独星球：东南亚小本经营指南》。
I was importing them: my little catalog.
我正在导入它们：我的小目录。
I worked at University of Georgia in the science lab, and there was an Apple IIe there that was used in the lab for data stuff.
我在佐治亚大学的科学实验室工作，那里有一个 Apple IIe，用于实验室中的数据处理。
I got a modem for it and I started to send information from the little catalog I was making to a local newspaper to have it typeset.
我买了一个调制解调器，然后开始将我正在制作的小目录中的信息发送到当地报纸进行排版。
But I discovered that there was this bulletin-board world on the modem.
但我发现调制解调器上有这个公告板世界。
There was this online thing happening.
网上发生了这样的事情。
I used the computer to telephone the modem into these bulletin boards where there was these conversations happening.
我用计算机将调制解调器打电话到这些公告板上，这些对话就在那里发生。
For the first time, I felt that there was this organic technology.
我第一次感受到有这种有机的技术。
There was something very community-, Amish-barn-raising-like about it.
这里有一种非常社区化、阿米什式谷仓饲养的感觉。
That was my entry.
那是我的条目。
That was when I began to rethink about technology, because for the first time, it didn’t seem like smokestacks and big conglomerate, industrial-scale technology.
就在那时，我开始重新思考技术，因为第一次，它看起来不像烟囱和大型企业集团、工业规模的技术。
Here was something that was very intimate.
这是非常亲密的事情。
I started paying attention to that, and I started to explore that as if it was a new country.
我开始关注这一点，并开始探索它，就好像这是一个新的国家一样。
I got my first — one of the first magazine articles I ever wrote was exploring this online world as a new country, and I was trying to do like a tour guide to it.
我得到了我的第一篇——我写的第一篇杂志文章是探索这个作为一个新国家的网络世界，我试图像一个导游一样去探索它。
I was taking my travel metaphor, and it was called “Network Nation.” That was the thing that flipped my idea about technology and seeing a different face to it.
我用旅行来比喻，它被称为“网络国家”。这改变了我对技术的看法，让我看到了它不同的一面。
How has it affected your worldviews having been born into Westfield, New Jersey?
出生在新泽西州韦斯特菲尔德，这对你的世界观有何影响？
Where I’ve been many times, I might add.
我可能会补充一下我去过很多次的地方。
You mean the “it” meaning the technology?
你的意思是“它”指的是技术吗？
No, anything.
不，任何东西。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
You’re from Westfield, New Jersey.
你来自新泽西州韦斯特菲尔德。
How does that matter?
这有什么关系呢？
Yes.
是的。
Well, I try to convey to my kids how parochial Westfield, New Jersey, was during the ’50s and ’60s, where I graduated high school never having eaten Chinese food, never having picked up chopsticks, never being around people from other cultures.
好吧，我试图向我的孩子们传达五十年代和六十年代新泽西州韦斯特菲尔德是多么狭隘，我高中毕业时从未吃过中餐，从未拿起筷子，从未与来自其他文化的人接触过。
The paucity in the local bookstore of finding out information, of how things worked: it was incredibly parochial at that time.
当地书店很少能找到有关事情如何运作的信息：当时这是非常狭隘的。
Even the cuisine, the stuff that we ate: macaroni and cheese, meatloaf.
甚至是美食，我们吃的东西：通心粉、奶酪、肉饼。
It was unbelievably hard — when I came back from Asia the first time, I decided I wanted to try to cook something Chinese, so I went to hunt for fresh ginger.
这是难以置信的艰难 ——当我第一次从亚洲回来时，我决定尝试做一些中国菜，所以我去寻找新鲜的生姜。
I had to basically travel to Newark, New Jersey, a big city, to find an Italian grocery to find fresh ginger, which of course now is available everywhere.
我基本上必须前往新泽西州的纽瓦克这座大城市，找到一家意大利杂货店才能找到新鲜的生姜，当然现在到处都可以买到。
There was this sense of the parochial, little, circular, isolated sense of a suburb that is most strong in my mind right now.
我现在脑海中最强烈的是一种郊区的狭隘、狭小、圆形、孤立的感觉。
I feel as if I knew nothing and there was very little contact with things that were different or other.
我觉得自己好像一无所知，也很少接触到不同的事物。
It was not cosmopolitan in the least.
它一点也不国际化。
That, of course, has changed over time.
当然，随着时间的推移，情况已经发生了变化。
But that’s the journey that I’ve been on, is leaving that behind.
但这就是我一直在经历的旅程，正在把它抛在脑后。
I used to think of Westfield as the bigger town, so imagine my upbringing.
我曾经认为韦斯特菲尔德是一个更大的城镇，所以想象一下我的成长经历吧。
Where did you grow up?
你在哪里长大？
I was born in Kearny, New Jersey, right next to Newark, but mostly grew up in Hillsdale, which was a sleepy town of 20,000 people.
我出生在新泽西州的卡尼，毗邻纽瓦克，但大部分时间是在希尔斯代尔长大的，那是一个只有 20,000 人的沉睡小镇。
The chess club — we would go play Westfield.
国际象棋俱乐部——我们会去韦斯特菲尔德玩。
They were the big, strong chess club from the big place, and we were afraid of them because they were from Westfield.
他们是来自大地方的强大的国际象棋俱乐部，我们害怕他们，因为他们来自韦斯特菲尔德。
Yes.
是的。
It’s all relative, but for me, I felt this was a small town, and some of the small-town and parochial sense of it was for me the reason why I left basically right after high school and only recently went back after 50 years for my 50-year high school reunion.
这都是相对的，但对我来说，我觉得这是一个小镇，它的一些小镇和狭隘的感觉对我来说是我高中毕业后就离开的原因，直到最近才在 50 年后回来参加我的 50 周年高中聚会。
I went back, and the main thing I wanted to see was — when I was 17, I planted an acorn in our backyard, a little seedling from an acorn.
我回去了，我最想看到的是 —— 当我17岁的时候，我在我们的后院种了一颗橡子，是一颗橡子的小幼苗。
And I said, “I’m hoping that this tree will grow to be a huge tree in 50 years.” And I went back, and the tree was there, in the same yard, and it was a magnificent, huge oak tree.
我说：“我希望这棵树能在 50 年内长成一棵参天大树。”我回去了，那棵树就在那里，在同一个院子里，那是一棵宏伟的巨大橡树。
And I just felt very proud that I was being a good ancestor.
我只是为自己是一个好祖先而感到非常自豪。
Long-termism, right?
长期主义，对吗？
Exactly.
确切地。
Last two questions.
最后两个问题。
First, what’s the last thing you’ve changed your mind about?
首先，你最近改变主意的一件事是什么？
Yes.
是的。
The last thing, and I have to say this very cautiously — but I have been deciding that I think the Civil War was a mistake.
最后一件事，我必须非常谨慎地说——但我一直认为内战是一个错误。
That we should have — we, the Union, should have left the South to secede, if the majority of people who were voting had voted for it, and that the right of the Union to enforce that Union, I think, was a mistake.
如果大多数投票者都投票支持的话，我们应该——我们，联邦，应该让南方脱离联邦，而且我认为，联邦执行该联邦的权利是一个错误。
The number of people that died, the division that it caused, and everything else was wrong, and that it would have been better to have left the South to secede.
死亡人数、由此造成的分裂以及其他一切都是错误的，最好离开南方并脱离联邦。
I recently came to that conclusion.
我最近得出了这个结论。
But wouldn’t slavery just have gone on for a very long time?
但奴隶制不是已经持续了很长一段时间吗？
I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
Do you think it would have ended for not being profitable enough, or just slave owners would have given up all that wealth?
你认为它会因为利润不足而结束，还是只是奴隶主会放弃所有的财富？
I think it ended for the same reason it ended in all the other places in the world.
我认为它的结束和世界上其他地方的结束是一样的。
I think maybe it would not have ended as fast, but I think it would have proven to not withstand industrialization.
我认为也许它不会那么快结束，但我认为它会被证明无法承受工业化。
I’ll mention your book again before the final question: Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier.
在最后一个问题之前我会再次提到你的书：《生活的绝佳建议：我希望我早点知道的智慧》。
Last question: now that your book is out or coming out, what will you do next?
最后一个问题：现在你的书已经出版或即将出版，你接下来会做什么？
I’m working on a project called the Hundred-Year Desirable Future.
我正在开展一个名为“百年理想未来”的项目。
I think it’s really important to try and visualize where it is that we want to go with all this technology, because I think it’s hard enough to get there deliberately, and it’s almost impossible to get there inadvertently.
我认为尝试并想象我们想要使用所有这些技术的目标非常重要，因为我认为故意到达那里已经足够困难，并且几乎不可能不经意地到达那里。
I think having a vision, a destination, of wherever it is that we want to go is helpful.
我认为对我们想去的地方有一个愿景、一个目的地是有帮助的。
That’s actually — it’s difficult.
这实际上是 —— 很难。
It’s easy to imagine how things don’t work, because that’s more probable; failure is the norm.
人们很容易想象事情会如何不顺利，因为这种情况发生的可能性更大。失败是常态。
Seeing how high all this AI could work is really hard to see.
很难想象这些人工智能能发挥多大作用。
How is there a world in which we have ubiquitous AI, ubiquitous genetic engineering, constant surveillance — how is that a world that we want to live in?
如何存在一个我们拥有无处不在的人工智能、无处不在的基因工程、持续监视的世界 —— 这样的世界是我们想要生活在其中的吗？
I’m trying to imagine what that is with a set of scenarios that would say, “Here’s a possible future of this high tech that could work,” and I call it the Hundred-Year Desirable Future or Protopia.
我试图通过一系列场景来想象“这是一种可行的高科技的可能未来”，我将其称为“百年理想未来”或“Protopia”。
Kevin Kelly, a real pleasure.
凯文·凯利，真的很高兴。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Tyler, you always ask the very best questions.
泰勒，你总是问最好的问题。
I just love it.
我就是喜欢它。
Each one of them made me really think hard, which is a real joy when you’re doing these kinds of interviews.
他们每个人都让我认真思考，当你进行此类采访时，这真是一种乐趣。
So thank you very much.
非常感谢。