Karl Ove Knausgård on Literary Freedom (Ep. 66)

KARL OVE KNAUSGÅRD: Thank you for inviting me.

卡尔·奥韦·诺斯高德： 感谢您邀请我。

KNAUSGÅRD: Who I’m trying to copy?

KNAUSGÅRD：我想模仿谁？

KNAUSGÅRD: That was a tough first question, I have to say.

KNAUSGÅRD：我不得不说，这是一个很难回答的第一个问题。

How can I have come to that?

我怎么会走到这一步呢？

I think there’s several levels you could reply to that question.

我认为你可以从几个层面来回答这个问题。

KNAUSGÅRD: First level would be whatever’s related to literature, to the art of fiction — how to tell a story — which is something you learn through reading.

KNAUSGÅRD：第一级是与文学、小说艺术相关的内容——“如何讲故事”——这是你通过阅读学到的东西。

And you have to have that for writing.

你必须拥有它才能写作。

There are several ways to tell a story, several ways to enter a scene, several ways to write realistic prose.

讲故事有多种方法，进入场景有多种方法，写现实散文有多种方法。

For me, almost all reading I’ve done has, I think, subconsciously sunk into me in my own world and in my own writing.

对我来说，我认为几乎所有我读过的书都潜意识地融入了我自己的世界和我自己的写作中。

When I, for instance, read Marcel Proust for the first time, I absolutely loved it, and I read it like I was drinking water or something.

例如，当我第一次读马塞尔·普鲁斯特时，我非常喜欢它，我读它就像在喝水什么的。

But I wasn’t aware of me soaking it up at all, and I couldn’t write at that time.

但我根本没有意识到自己已经吸收了它，而且当时我也无法写作。

Two years later, I wrote a novel.

两年后，我写了一本小说。

It is incredible — many similarities with Marcel Proust, but I wasn’t aware of it.

这太不可思议了——与马塞尔·普鲁斯特有很多相似之处，但我没有意识到。

It was just something that happened.

这只是发生过的事情。

That’s one level of mimesis.

这是一种模仿。

The other level is the opposite.

另一层则相反。

It’s unlearning everything you know to be able to access what I like to think of as the world — the world we live in — because sometimes fiction can be so mechanical and so locked into certain ways to look at the world that it’s more like you’re looking through literature than through the world.

它需要忘掉你所知道的一切，才能进入我所认为的世界 ——“我们生活的世界”——因为有时小说可能是如此机械，并被锁定在某些看待世界的方式中，以至于你更像是在通过文学而不是世界来看待。

That was what I was struggling with in My Struggle: trying to find a language for my experience of the world and not .

这就是我在《我的奋斗》中所苦苦挣扎的：试图找到一种语言来表达我对世界的体验，而不是。

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I wasn’t interested in writing a novel.

我对写小说不感兴趣。

I was interested in trying to get the language from my experience of the world.

我有兴趣尝试从我的世界经历中获得这种语言。

And I think that is the key to Edvard Munch — what he did as a painter.

我认为这是爱德华·蒙克（Edvard Munch）的关键——他作为画家所做的事情。

Very much so because he grew up in Norway at the end of the 19th century in a kind of a certain pictorial language, which was realism, which was naturalism, and which was a national romanticism.

之所以如此，是因为他在19世纪末的挪威长大，成长于一种特定的绘画语言中，即现实主义、自然主义、民族浪漫主义。

You know, the glossy images of mountains and flowers and that kind of thing.

你知道，山峦和花朵的光彩图像之类的。

KNAUSGÅRD: That was what he had available when he started.

KNAUSGÅRD：这就是他刚开始工作时所拥有的。

He wanted to paint.

他想画画。

That was what he had available.

这就是他所拥有的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, I think so.

诺斯高德： 是的，我想是的。

But what Munch wanted .

但蒙克想要什么。

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I think what Munch had was some experiences, very strong experiences.

我认为蒙克有一些经历，非常强烈的经历。

He lost his mother when he was very young, and then he lost his oldest sister, which was even harder for him.

他很小的时候就失去了母亲，后来又失去了姐姐，这对他来说更加困难。

I think what he lacked when he started to paint was a language to express that.

我认为当他开始绘画时，他缺乏的是一种表达这一点的语言。

Couldn’t do that through glossy, nice romanticism.

光鲜亮丽的浪漫主义是无法做到这一点的。

So he had to break down everything he knew about painting to try to get that through what he had experienced.

所以他必须分解他所知道的关于绘画的一切，试图通过他所经历的事情来理解它。

That’s the same thing with writing.

写作也是如此。

That’s what you want to do — get that personal experience.

这就是你想要做的 ——获得个人体验。

The thing that only you feel.

只有你感觉到的东西。

The thing that only you see.

只有你看到的东西。

The thing that you know.

你所知道的事情。

Get that through.

把它搞清楚。

If you do that, you realize, “No, that’s how everyone sees it.

如果你这样做了，你就会意识到，“不，每个人都是这么看的。

That’s how everyone feels.” But that’s kind of the thing you have to try to reach, to tap into.

每个人都是这样的感觉。”但这是你必须努力达到、利用的东西。

When I started to write My Struggle, I didn’t know that existed.

当我开始写《我的奋斗》时，我并不知道它的存在。

I just wanted to do it for my own sake, more or less.

我只是想这样做，或多或少是为了我自己。

And yeah, it was confessional.

是的，这是忏悔。

Would you accept that characterization?

你能接受这样的描述吗？

KNAUSGÅRD: Pietistic I will accept, and a part of that Nordic tradition I will very much accept.

KNAUSGÅRD：我会接受虔诚，并且我会非常接受北欧传统的一部分。

Religious?

宗教？

That’s a bit more difficult to relate to, I think.

我认为这有点难以理解。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yes, true.

诺斯高德： 是的，确实如此。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yes, true.

诺斯高德： 是的，确实如此。

KNAUSGÅRD: The obvious thing in regard to that is that a pietistic Christianity is a very personal relation to God, a very intimate relation to God — much more than a collective play like a religion as Catholicism would be.

诺斯高德：显而易见的是，虔诚的基督教是与上帝的一种非常个人的关系，一种与上帝非常亲密的关系——远远超过了像天主教这样的宗教的集体游戏。

Much more internal than external.

内在的多于外在的。

And as a novelist, that’s the confessional path, so to speak.

可以说，作为一名小说家，这就是忏悔之路。

But these things you don’t think about.

但这些事情你想都不敢想。

These things you just do.

这些事情你只要做就可以了。

If you are born into a culture, that culture becomes part of you.

如果你出生在一种文化中，那么这种文化就会成为你的一部分。

That language becomes part of you.

这种语言成为你的一部分。

And something of that you have to challenge.

你必须挑战其中的一些东西。

Something of that you are not aware of.

有些你不知道的事情。

It’s just part of you.

它只是你的一部分。

There’s certain writers I do really love, and I think that is part of my culture.

我确实喜欢某些作家，我认为这是我文化的一部分。

And I think I’m similar to them because of many different things.

我认为我和他们很相似，因为有很多不同的事情。

But these things you are talking about is kind of more cultural, deep-layered things, the pietism.

但你所说的这些东西是一种更文化的、更深层次的东西，虔诚主义。

These are not things you think about.

这些不是你想的事情。

This is things that just happen, I think.

我认为这是刚刚发生的事情。

But it’s very un-modern.

但这是非常不现代的。

That’s true.

这是真的。

KNAUSGÅRD: It’s very old-fashioned.

KNAUSGÅRD：这是非常老式的。

That’s true.

这是真的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

I told you we ask different questions.

我告诉过你我们会问不同的问题。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, yeah.

诺斯高德： 是的，是的。

You just said different.

你刚才说的不一样。

You didn’t say difficult.

你没说难。

Yeah, because there was a lot of grouping together.

是的，因为有很多人聚集在一起。

Here you had Kierkegaard and the sacrifice of Isaac and the biblical story, which basically is a story about faith, and what it is to believe in God, and what it demands to believe in God — the completely irrational level it takes to believe in God.

这里有克尔凯郭尔、以撒的牺牲和圣经故事，这基本上是一个关于信仰的故事，以及信仰上帝是什么，以及信仰上帝需要什么——信仰上帝需要完全非理性的水平。

The leap out in the unknown which you have to take.

跳出你必须接受的未知世界。

It’s an interesting thing going on in that essay, which is a wonderful essay about Abraham sacrificing Isaac.

这篇文章中发生了一件有趣的事情，这是一篇关于亚伯拉罕牺牲以撒的精彩文章。

It’s that it also has some small parts about breastfeeding in between, which is incredibly strange, and I’ve been thinking a lot about that.

中间还有一些关于母乳喂养的小部分，这非常奇怪，我对此思考了很多。

What is that?

那是什么？

But it’s moving away from something.

但它正在远离某些东西。

It’s going from a mother into society, and the leap of religion is going from a society into the unknown, into the things we don’t really know about, the things we don’t have language for.

它从母亲进入社会，宗教的飞跃正在从社会进入未知，进入我们真正不了解的事物，进入我们无法用语言描述的事物。

There is another very interesting Norwegian poet — no, not Norwegian, but Nordic poet — called Inger Christensen.

还有一位非常有趣的挪威诗人——不，不是挪威诗人，而是北欧诗人——名叫英格·克里斯滕森。

She wrote a collection of essays which is really brilliant, and she talks about those kind of border areas.

她写了一本非常精彩的散文集，她谈到了那种边境地区。

It’s a matter of language — what we can express and what we not can express.

这是语言的问题——我们可以表达什么，不能表达什么。

In science, those are the string theories.

在科学中，这些就是弦理论。

That’s the things we don’t know.

这些都是我们不知道的事情。

That’s the unknown.

那是未知的。

And the border is the language.

边界就是语言。

We don’t have language for it.

我们没有语言来表达它。

We can’t really.

我们真的不能。

She also said that — like a letter in a book cannot read what’s around it, cannot read the book — we are the same in the world.

她还说 ——就像书中的字母无法读懂周围的内容，无法读懂书本一样——我们在世界上都是一样的。

We cannot read the world.

我们无法读懂这个世界。

We’re part of it.

我们是其中的一部分。

But that was Kierkegaard.

但那是克尔凯郭尔。

Yeah, I find it hard to connect Kierkegaard in regard of children, sacrifice of children.

是的，我发现很难将克尔凯郭尔与儿童和儿童牺牲联系起来。

And Bergman?

伯格曼呢？

Bergman is completely different somehow.

伯格曼在某种程度上完全不同。

KNAUSGÅRD: I know.

诺斯高德：我知道。

Bergman’s workbooks just came out in Sweden.

伯格曼的练习册刚刚在瑞典出版。

It’s not his diaries, and it’s not his plays, but it’s kind of an in-between state, all notes he took when he was working with things.

这不是他的日记，也不是他的戏剧，但这是一种介于两者之间的状态，是他在处理事物时所做的所有笔记。

And it’s incredibly interesting because you can see how a film surfaced from almost nothing and just became a film.

这非常有趣，因为你可以看到一部电影是如何从几乎没有的东西中出现并成为一部电影的。

And you see all his struggles, and you see all of that.

你看到了他所有的挣扎，你也看到了这一切。

But then in one particular passage, he wrote about a film he wanted to make, and then he said, “Today, my grandchild died.” And that was it.

但后来在一个特定的段落中，他写了一部他想拍的电影，然后他说，“今天，我的孙子去世了。”就是这样。

Just a little passage, like he really didn’t care.

只是一小段话，就像他真的不在乎一样。

In a normal person, it would have filled that person completely.

如果是正常人的话，就已经完全充满了那个人。

And then that little episode turns up in his next film, that the child is drowning.

然后这个小插曲出现在他的下一部电影中，孩子溺水了。

There is another episode from Bergman’s life, that when his son was lying on his deathbed, he refused to have his father come there, and that’s a very, very strong statement.

伯格曼一生中还有一件事，就是当他的儿子弥留之际，他拒绝让父亲过来，这是一个非常非常强烈的声明。

KNAUSGÅRD: You have this almost archetypical artist putting his art before his children, before his family, before everything.

KNAUSGÅRD：这位几乎是典型的艺术家将他的艺术置于他的孩子、家庭、一切之上。

You have also Doris Lessing who did the same — abandoned her children to move to London to write.

多丽丝·莱辛也做了同样的事情——抛弃了孩子，搬到伦敦写作。

I’ve been kind of confronted with that as a writer, and I think everyone does because writing is so time consuming and so demanding.

作为一名作家，我曾经遇到过这种情况，我想每个人都会遇到这种情况，因为写作是如此耗时且要求很高。

When I got children, I had this idea that writing was a solitary thing.

当我有了孩子后，我觉得写作是一件孤独的事情。

I could go out to small islands in the sea.

我可以去海上的小岛。

I could go to lighthouses, live there, try to write in complete .

我可以去灯塔，住在那里，尝试完整地写作。

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be completely solitary and alone.

完全孤独。

When I got children, that was an obstruction for my writing, I thought.

我想，当我有了孩子后，这对我的写作来说是一个障碍。

But it wasn’t.

但事实并非如此。

It was the other way around.

事实恰恰相反。

I’ve never written as much as I have after I got the children, after I started to write at home, after I kind of established writing in the middle of life.

在我有了孩子之后，在我开始在家写作之后，在我在中年开始写作之后，我从来没有像现在这样写过这么多。

It was crawling with life everywhere.

到处都充满了生机。

And what happened was that writing became less important.

结果是写作变得不那么重要了。

It became less precious.

它变得不那么珍贵了。

It became more ordinary.

变得更加普通了。

It became less religious or less sacred.

它变得不那么宗教化或不那么神圣了。

I’ve never written as much as I have after I got the children, after I started to write at home, after I kind of established writing in the middle of life.

在我有了孩子之后，在我开始在家写作之后，在我在中年开始写作之后，我从来没有像现在这样写过这么多。

It was crawling with life everywhere.

到处都充满了生机。

And what happened was that writing became less important.

结果是写作变得不那么重要了。

It became less precious.

它变得不那么珍贵了。

It became more ordinary.

变得更加普通了。

It became less religious or less sacred.

它变得不那么宗教化或不那么神圣了。

It became something ordinary, and that was incredibly important for me because that was eventually where I wanted to go — into the ordinary and mundane, even, and try to connect to what was going on in life.

它变得很平常，这对我来说非常重要，因为这最终是我想要进入的地方——甚至进入平凡和世俗，并尝试与生活中正在发生的事情联系起来。

Life isn’t sacred.

生命并不神圣。

Life isn’t uplifted.

生活并没有得到提升。

It is ordinary and boring and all the things, we know.

这是平凡而无聊的，所有的事情，我们都知道。

You have these myths, and they work for some.

你有这些神话，它们对某些人有用。

They don’t work for some, but you can relate to them.

它们对某些人不起作用，但你可以与他们产生共鸣。

I have a friend.

我有一个朋友。

He’s a brilliant writer, and he always says, “Yeah.

他是一位出色的作家，他总是说：“是的。

When you want to create something, you have certain .

当你想创造一些东西时，你就有一定的把握。

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.” I don’t know the English word.

”。我不认识这个英文单词。

You have certain things that’s fixated.

你有一些固定的事情。

What do you call them?

你怎么称呼他们？

Premises?

前提？

Or —

或者——

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, you just have to accept them and work inside of them.

KNAUSGÅRD：是的，你只需要接受它们并在其中工作。

That’s the only way.

这是唯一的方法。

If you can’t write, then you have to start right out from that fact.

如果你不会写作，那么你就必须从这个事实开始。

I think that’s the best advice I ever got — to accept everything that happens.

我认为这是我得到的最好建议——接受发生的一切。

So if you have many children, it’s a good thing.

所以，如果你有很多孩子，那是一件好事。

If you don’t have children, it’s a good thing.

如果你没有孩子，那是一件好事。

You have to embrace it because that’s your life.

你必须拥抱它，因为那是你的生活。

That’s where you are, and writing should be connected to that — or painting or whatever it is.

这就是你所在的地方，写作应该与那个联系起来——或者绘画或其他任何东西。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

It’s many connections.

有很多联系。

One would be that when my grandmother died, we found Mein Kampf in the chest in the living room.

其中之一是，当我祖母去世时，我们在客厅的箱子里发现了《我的奋斗》。

What was that book doing there?

那本书在那里做什么？

Had they read it?

他们读过吗？

And I realized it was kind of a common thing to have that book.

我意识到拥有那本书是很常见的事情。

It was kind of a common thing to cooperate with the Nazi regime.

与纳粹政权合作是很常见的事情。

When I grew up in Norway, the story we were told at school was the heroic one: the resistance and how every able civilian resisted.

当我在挪威长大时，我们在学校听到的故事是英雄的故事：抵抗以及每一个有能力的平民如何抵抗。

But the fact is that Norway was .

但事实是挪威是。

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The wheels were rolling, and the society was working, and there had to be a lot of cooperation with the Nazis.

车轮在滚动，社会在运转，必须与纳粹进行大量合作。

My other grandfather — he befriended an Austrian officer that was posted by where he lived.

我的另一位祖父——他和他居住地派驻的一位奥地利军官成为了朋友。

When I grew up, there was remnants from the war, like bunkers we were playing at.

当我长大的时候，那里有战争的遗迹，比如我们玩的沙坑。

And it was like war was, in one sense, incredibly distant, but when I start to think about it, incredibly close.

从某种意义上说，战争似乎非常遥远，但当我开始思考它时，战争却又非常接近。

It was my grandparents’, parents’ world, really.

这确实是我祖父母、父母的世界。

But that wasn’t the reason why I started to write.

但这并不是我开始写作的原因。

The reason was coincidental, basically, because I called my book My Struggle, which is the English translation of Mein Kampf, and then I had to read it.

原因基本上是巧合，因为我把我的书命名为“我的奋斗”，这是《我的奋斗》的英文翻译，然后我不得不读它。

And then I realized Hitler’s book is his writing about his own self.

然后我意识到希特勒的书是他写的关于他自己的书。

I’m writing about my own self.

我正在写我自己。

It’s the same title.

这是同一个标题。

I started to read him, and I got incredibly intrigued by what I read because there was so much — not that he was lying, but it was so much that was unsaid, so much that he twisted his life into something completely different.

我开始阅读他的作品，我对所读到的东西非常感兴趣，因为里面有太多东西——并不是说他在撒谎，而是有太多东西没有说出来，以至于他把他的生活扭曲成了完全不同的东西。

Couldn’t be true.

这不可能是真的。

And I just dived into that and started to read more about it and try to find out what kind of man he was and how all this could happen.

我只是深入研究这个问题，开始阅读更多相关内容，并试图找出他是一个什么样的人，以及这一切是如何发生的。

Well, it started out like it started in the book.

嗯，事情的开始就像书中的开始一样。

It’s a reflection about names because I couldn’t use my father’s name in the book.

这是对名字的反思，因为我不能在书中使用我父亲的名字。

My family forbid me that.

我的家人禁止我这样做。

So I started to be interested in and look around — what names really are, what they signify.

所以我开始感兴趣并环顾四周——“名字到底是什么，它们代表什么。”

Then I stumbled across a Romanian poet who wrote in German, called Paul Celan.

然后我偶然发现了一位用德语写作的罗马尼亚诗人，名叫保罗·策兰。

His parents died in the Holocaust, and he was Jewish.

他的父母死于大屠杀，他是犹太人。

He wrote postwar in the language of the Nazis.

他用纳粹的语言写战后的作品。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

And the rest is —

剩下的就是——

KNAUSGÅRD: No, I think Paul Celan .

诺斯高德：不，我认为是保罗·策兰。

.

。

.

。

Yeah, maybe.

是的，也许吧。

But anyway, he wrote this incredibly, incredibly, incredibly intriguing poem where almost nothing can be named.

但无论如何，他写了这首令人难以置信、令人难以置信、令人难以置信的有趣的诗，其中几乎没有什么可以命名的。

There’s no names.

没有名字。

And it’s like it’s almost impossible to say anything.

就好像几乎不可能说什么。

It’s like the language is completely, completely broken, so there’s no connection between the element and the language.

就好像语言完全、完全被破坏了，所以元素和语言之间没有任何联系。

And I read that, and I wrote about it, and I realized this is — and it’s about Holocaust, of course — this is the end of what was started with My Struggle (Hitler’s).

我读到了这篇文章，我写了它，我意识到这是 ——当然，这是关于大屠杀的——这是从《我的斗争》（希特勒的）开始的结束。

And then that was the moment in the book .

然后就是书中的那一刻。

.

。

.

。

because Hitler also wrote in German, and he also wrote .

因为希特勒也用德语写作，他也用德语写作。

.

。

.

。

You could read it.

你可以读一下。

It’s bad.

这很糟糕。

You can say whatever you want, but the fact that you could actually read him is intriguing.

你可以说任何你想说的，但事实上你可以真正读懂他的作品，这一点很有趣。

And you can see everything he wants to do is in the book.

你可以看到他想做的一切都在书中。

So I wanted to describe that path from Hitler to Celan.

所以我想描述一下从希特勒到策兰的道路。

It’s the only part in the book that’s not about me.

这是书中唯一与我无关的部分。

But it is, of course, about me.

但这当然是关于我的。

And it’s the only part that’s not about our time.

这是唯一与我们这个时代无关的部分。

It’s about the past.

这是关于过去的。

It’s kind of a place, kind of a dark mirror in the book where you could see everything be .

这是一个地方，就像书中的一面黑暗的镜子，你可以在那里看到一切。

.

。

.

。

get a perspective to everything.

对一切都有一个看法。

And it’s the only part I found really pleasure in writing because there was so much I discovered during writing.

这是我在写作中真正感到乐趣的唯一部分，因为在写作过程中我发现了很多东西。

That, and it wasn’t about me, which is a burden to do, but that was different.

那，这不是关于我的，这是一种负担，但那是不同的。

It’s about the generation that grew up with the First World War and made the Second World War happen.

这是关于伴随第一次世界大战成长并导致第二次世界大战发生的一代人的故事。

And if one thinks of your own career, arguably it’s your extreme popularity in Norway at first that drove your later fame.

如果有人想到你自己的职业生涯，可以说正是你一开始在挪威的超高人气推动了你后来的名气。

What’s the connection of your own work to Norwegian nationalism?

您自己的作品与挪威民族主义有什么联系？

Are you the first non-nationalist great Norwegian writer?

您是第一位非民族主义的伟大挪威作家吗？

Is that plausible?

这合理吗？

Or is there some deeper connection?

或者说还有什么更深层次的联系？

KNAUSGÅRD: I think so much writing is done out of a feeling of not belonging.

KNAUSGÅRD：我认为很多写作都是出于一种不归属感。

If you read Knut Hamsun, he was a Nazi.

如果你读过克努特·汉姆生（Knut Hamsun），他是纳粹分子。

I mean, he was a full-blooded Nazi.

我的意思是，他是一个纯正的纳粹分子。

We have to be honest about that.

我们必须诚实地对待这一点。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: It’s true, it’s a wonderful book.

KNAUSGÅRD：确实如此，这是一本很棒的书。

But I think Hamsun’s theme, his subject, is rootlessness.

但我认为汉姆生的主题、他的主题是无根的。

In a very rooted society, in a rural society, in a family-orientated society like Norway has been — a small society — he was a very rootless, very urban writer.

在一个非常根深蒂固的社会，在一个乡村社会，在一个像挪威这样的以家庭为中心的社会，“一个小社会”，他是一个非常无根的、非常城市化的作家。

He went to America, and he hated America, but he was America.

他去了美国，他讨厌美国，但他就是美国。

He had that in him.

他身上就有这样的东西。

He was there in the late 19th century, and he wrote a book about it, which is a terrible book, but still, he was there, and he had that modernity in him.

他在 19 世纪末就在那里，他写了一本关于它的书，这是一本糟糕的书，但他仍然在那里，而且他身上有那种现代性。

He never wrote about his parents.

他从未写过关于他父母的事。

Never wrote about where he came from.

从未写过他来自哪里。

All his characters just appear, and then something happens with them, but there’s no past.

他所有的角色都只是出现，然后他们身上发生了一些事情，但没有过去。

I found that incredibly intriguing just because he became the Nazi.

我发现这非常有趣，因为他成为了纳粹分子。

He became the farmer.

他成了农民。

He became the one who sang the song about the growth.

他成为了唱这首歌关于成长的人。

What do you call it?

你怎么称呼它？

Markens Grøde.

马肯斯·格罗德。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

Exactly.

确切地。

It’s like he’s fistfighting himself, doing that.

这样做就像他在与自己打架。

So he’s not your nationalist.

所以他不是你们的民族主义者。

He’s incredibly complex, and the interesting thing is that you can see that struggle in his writing.

他非常复杂，有趣的是你可以在他的写作中看到这种挣扎。

KNAUSGÅRD: No, but actually, I have thought about doing that — go in his footsteps because he was there for quite a long time.

KNAUSGÅRD：不，但实际上，我考虑过这样做——追随他的脚步，因为他已经在那里呆了很长时间了。

He drove a tram in Chicago, did a lot of things, and it’s an exciting story, really.

他在芝加哥开有轨电车，做了很多事情，这真的是一个令人兴奋的故事。

But anyway, the thing with writing in his case is that he’s getting so close to the world and to the people in his writing.

但无论如何，在他的案例中，写作的问题在于，他与写作中的世界和人物如此接近。

It’s so complex that he is not a Nazi in his writing.

事情是如此复杂，以至于他在作品中并不是纳粹分子。

But in his essays and in his speeches, there’s a big dissonance.

但在他的文章和演讲中，存在很大的不一致。

There, he’s a Nazi.

在那里，他是纳粹分子。

And that’s what a teacher can do, is to get you so close to these things that nationalism just disappears because they don’t exist on that particular level.

这就是老师能做的，就是让你如此接近这些东西，民族主义就会消失，因为它们在那个特定的层面上不存在。

You have to move away from the world — to be able to establish a distance — to be able to talk about these things at all.

你必须远离这个世界 ——才能建立距离—— 才能谈论这些事情。

Norway is a nationalistic country, but it’s not in any bad way at all, really.

挪威是一个民族主义国家，但实际上一点也不坏。

It’s a very innocent country.

这是一个非常无辜的国家。

KNAUSGÅRD: The worst thing?

KNAUSGÅRD：最糟糕的事情是什么？

KNAUSGÅRD: I think it’s — to me, being an outsider, it’s both the worst and the most interesting, and that’s the huge difference between the classes.

KNAUSGÅRD：我认为，对于我来说，作为一个局外人，这既是最糟糕的，也是最有趣的，这就是班级之间的巨大差异。

It’s the extreme poverty, and then you just walk up a hill and it’s incredibly rich.

这是极度贫困，然后你只要走上一座小山，就会变得异常富有。

It’s not only a matter of classes, but the area I live in is a rather poor area.

这不仅是班级的问题，而且我居住的地区是一个相当贫困的地区。

It’s a black area.

这是一个黑色区域。

And then you go up the hill and it’s a white area.

然后你上山，那是一片白色的区域。

I think it’s a kind of hopelessness, really, to be here because you can’t do anything about it.

我认为来到这里确实是一种绝望，因为你对此无能为力。

It’s in the structure in the society.

这是在社会结构中。

But then also, it makes it incredibly — the variation incredible and the richness incredible, and so it’s very much an alive city.

但同时，它也让它变得令人难以置信——变化令人难以置信，丰富程度令人难以置信，所以它是一座充满活力的城市。

Coming from Norway, it’s very different.

来自挪威，情况非常不同。

It’s like all kind of things going on simultaneously, which is incredibly interesting and nice to at least — I know I’m not a part of it — but to see and to be around.

就像所有事情同时发生一样，这非常有趣，而且至少对于 ——“我知道我不是其中的一部分”—— 但能看到并身处其中，这真是太好了。

But it has that backside with the privilege being .

但它也有其背后的特权。

.

。

.

。

going around and around and around and around in the same kind of class and the privilege the same; you can’t move from one to another.

在同一类班级里转来转去，享受同样的特权；你不能从一个移动到另一个。

The Scandinavian society is much more egalitarian in that sense.

从这个意义上说，斯堪的纳维亚社会更加平等。

KNAUSGÅRD: You mean personally or through reading?

KNAUSGÅRD：您是指个人还是通过阅读？

KNAUSGÅRD: I don’t have a Hans Jaeger, but I have this writer I really admire, and he’s really something.

KNAUSGÅRD：我没有 Hans Jaeger，但我有一位我非常钦佩的作家，他真的很了不起。

KNAUSGÅRD: He’s called Thure Erik Lund.

KNAUSGÅRD：他叫 Thure Erik Lund。

He’s not translated into English.

他没有被翻译成英文。

He’s very wild — wild as a person, wild as a writer.

他非常狂野——作为​​一个人，作为一个作家，都非常狂野。

He has inspired me a lot and showed me what’s possible to do in writing.

他给了我很多启发，并向我展示了写作的可能性。

But he’s so particularly that it’s hard to translate him.

但他是如此特别，以至于很难翻译他。

If it had been written in English, he would have been, I guess, level of Thomas Pynchon or whoever.

如果它是用英语写的，我猜他会达到托马斯·品钦或其他人的水平。

He’s that good.

他就是那么好。

But he’s so idiosyncratic that it’s hard to translate him.

但他的个性如此独特，以至于很难翻译他。

He’s not my Hans Jaeger, but he’s an influence.

他不是我的汉斯·耶格，但他具有影响力。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, I’m kind of a careless person.

KNAUSGÅRD：是的，我是一个粗心的人。

I don’t take backups, and I have window open — it’s raining on my computer.

我不进行备份，并且我打开了窗口 —— 下雨了，我的电脑上。

I have lost a computer down on the tracks of trains, and I have lost them, you know, but it always turns out well.

我在火车铁轨上丢了一台电脑，你知道，我也丢了它们，但结果总是好的。

But that’s not the same.

但这不一样。

I don’t care about how a book looks.

我不关心一本书的外观。

I don’t deal with that part of it at all.

我根本不处理那部分。

When I’m done with a book, there’s hardly no editing.

当我写完一本书时，几乎不需要任何编辑。

I just leave it and publish it, and I want to move on because it’s the process of doing it that interests me, not the result.

我只是留下它并发布它，我想继续前进，因为我感兴趣的是做事的过程，而不是结果。

I really hate it when a book is done because then I know it’ll take a few years before I will get into something else.

我真的很讨厌一本书完成后，因为那时我知道我需要几年时间才能进入其他领域。

In that I can recognize Munch.

从这一点上我可以认出蒙克。

He hardly finished a painting in his life.

他一生几乎没有完成一幅画。

And he was very reckless with his paintings.

他对自己的画非常鲁莽。

It is a certain aesthetic in that as well.

这也是一种审美。

It’s like in writing.

这就像写作一样。

It’s like the difference between Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.

这就像陀思妥耶夫斯基和托尔斯泰之间的区别。

Dostoevsky really didn’t care.

陀思妥耶夫斯基确实不在乎。

He just didn’t have to describe it fully.

他只是不需要完整地描述它。

Just a few sentences, done with that, and go on and go on and go on, looking for something, like a flame or something burning or something, the intensity of something he was looking for.

只需几句话，就完成了，然后继续，继续，继续，寻找某种东西，比如火焰或燃烧的东西或其他东西，他正在寻找的东西的强度。

Tolstoy — he wrote about everything and painted it fully and did so wonderfully, but it is completely different aesthetics, and they reach completely different places.

托尔斯泰——他写了一切，把它画得很完整，做得非常精彩，但这是完全不同的美学，他们到达了完全不同的地方。

When I was young, I thought Dostoevsky was the primary, the one that had reached the front.

当我年轻的时候，我认为陀思妥耶夫斯基是第一位的，是走在前列的。

Now, I’m older, it’s Tolstoy, really.

现在，我长大了，那是托尔斯泰，真的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Very much so.

KNAUSGÅRD：非常如此。

The day he died, in the afternoon the day he died, he read Dostoevsky, and then he died.

他死的那天，死的那天下午，他读了陀思妥耶夫斯基，然后就死了。

So he just followed him throughout his life.

所以，他一生都在追随他。

I think Dostoevsky was part of forming his identity as a painter — exactly what’s unfinished, exactly what’s raw.

我认为陀思妥耶夫斯基是形成他作为画家的身份的一部分——正是未完成的东西，正是原始的东西。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

The Scream is based upon an experience he had walking up the hill outside of Oslo, seeing what you see in that painting, hearing the nature scream.

《尖叫》是基于他在奥斯陆郊外的山上行走的一次经历，看到了画中的景象，听到了大自然的尖叫。

So in a way, it’s a self-biographical painting, but the radicality of that painting — it’s hard to get a grip on now, I think.

所以在某种程度上，这是一幅自传式的绘画，但是那幅画的激进性 ——我认为现在很难理解。

We are very much used to that kind of distorted ways of depicting the world.

我们已经非常习惯这种扭曲的描绘世界的方式。

That’s a long story about .

这是一个很长的故事。

.

。

.

。

I write a lot about it in the book because it was fun, because that’s a painting that everyone knows, and everybody has a thought about it.

我在书中写了很多关于它的内容，因为它很有趣，因为那是一幅人人都知道的画，每个人都对它有想法。

I tried to write about it afresh.

我尝试重新写一下它。

What is this?

这是什么？

What did it do?

它做了什么？

I can talk about it if you like, but it’s a long, complicated story.

如果你愿意的话我可以谈谈，但这是一个漫长而复杂的故事。

I don’t know if I can do it.

我不知道我是否能做到。

KNAUSGÅRD: I don’t know about the Jasper Johns.

KNAUSGÅRD：我不了解 Jasper Johns。

Using the pattern on the bed, isn’t he?

使用床上的图案，不是吗？

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

Munch made some remarkable self-portraits, I think.

我认为蒙克画了一些非凡的自画像。

He did so throughout his life.

他一生都是这样做的。

He started at 18–19, and they were all very different, and I think they were all very good.

他从18-19岁开始，他们都很不同，我认为他们都非常好。

I think this is one of the very last ones.

我认为这是最后的之一。

The thing with this is, it’s so incredibly simple.

问题是，它非常简单。

It’s just a man standing there, and it’s like he’s showing us that.

只是一个人站在那里，就像他在向我们展示这一点。

This is it.

就是这样。

There’s no posing.

没有摆姿势。

There’s no defense, and Munch was a man full of defense.

没有防守，而蒙克是一个充满防守的人。

I think painting was a way for him to get under the defense and reconnect with the world.

我认为绘画是他摆脱防御并重新与世界联系的一种方式。

In this painting, that’s what it does.

在这幅画中，这就是它的作用。

It’s like the guard is down.

就好像守卫已经放松了。

This is what it is.

就是这样。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, it is a place to hide.

KNAUSGÅRD：是的，这是一个躲藏的地方。

That it is, I mean, that’s obvious.

我的意思是，这是显而易见的。

There’s that wonderful sentence in Witold Gombrowicz, Polish writer.

波兰作家维托尔德·贡布罗维奇（Witold Gombrowicz）有句精彩的句子。

His diaries are, I think, amongst the masterpieces of the last century.

我认为他的日记是上世纪的杰作之一。

It really is brilliant.

这确实很棒。

He published his own diaries when he was alive.

他在世时出版了自己的日记。

When they were published, he said, “You know, I just have to retreat one step inside myself.”

当它们出版时，他说：“你知道，我只需要向内心退一步。”

That’s what you do when you reveal so much about yourself.

当你暴露如此多的自我时，你就会这么做。

It’s like you could just take a step back, and it’s all right.

就好像你只要退后一步就可以了。

It’s not even connected to you if you do that.

如果你这样做，它甚至与你没有联系。

It’s like, “Okay.

就像，“好吧。

I never think about what people know about me.” The act of writing is, for me, a place I can go to and where I am protected somehow.

我从不考虑人们对我的了解。”对我来说，写作的行为是一个我可以去的地方，也是我受到某种保护的地方。

Publishing books is a different thing, of course.

当然，出版书籍是另一回事。

I try to disconnect from that.

我尝试与此断绝关系。

Don’t think about it — the publication of it.

别想它——它的出版。

What I want to do is to be in the space where I’m writing.

我想做的就是在我写作的空间里。

It’s also a way for me to understand what’s going on, to see things that I normally don’t see because I’m very much enclosed in myself and in my own space, and I don’t really notice things, and I’m kind of closed off to the world.

这也是我了解正在发生的事情、看到我通常看不到的事情的一种方式，因为我非常封闭在自己和自己的空间里，我并没有真正注意到事情，而且我有点与世界隔绝。

So writing is a way of opening up, also.

所以写作也是一种开放的方式。

Publishing books is a different thing, of course.

当然，出版书籍是另一回事。

I try to disconnect from that.

我尝试与此断绝关系。

Don’t think about it — the publication of it.

别想它——它的出版。

What I want to do is to be in the space where I’m writing.

我想做的就是在我写作的空间里。

It’s also a way for me to understand what’s going on, to see things that I normally don’t see because I’m very much enclosed in myself and in my own space, and I don’t really notice things, and I’m kind of closed off to the world.

这也是我了解正在发生的事情、看到我通常看不到的事情的一种方式，因为我非常封闭在自己和自己的空间里，我并没有真正注意到事情，而且我有点与世界隔绝。

So writing is a way of opening up, also.

所以写作也是一种开放的方式。

There’s a lot of things, but I’ve been writing for so long now that it feels like a place I can go to.

东西很多，但写了这么久，感觉好像是一个可以去的地方。

Go into that place and sit down, and I will be at peace as long as I am there.

走进那个地方坐下来，只要我在那里，我就会感到平静。

Even though I write about terrible and heartbreaking things, it still is a place of peace.

尽管我写的是可怕和令人心碎的事情，但它仍然是一个和平的地方。

I do find reading the same thing.

我确实发现读同样的东西。

I’ve always done that.

我一直都是这么做的。

I think that was why I read so much when I was little and when I grew up.

我想这就是为什么我小时候和长大后读了这么多书。

I think I became a writer the moment I realized that that space is the same.

我想当我意识到那个空间是一样的时候我就成为了一名作家。

The reading space and the writing space are basically the same, and you do the same things there in those spaces.

阅读空间和写作空间基本上是一样的，你在这些空间里做同样的事情。

KNAUSGÅRD: He didn’t really care, I think.

KNAUSGÅRD：我认为他并不真正关心。

He wanted to capture something, and if he didn’t do that at the first instant, he moved on.

他想要捕捉到一些东西，如果他没有在第一时间做到这一点，他就会继续前进。

But he kept all the bad paintings, too.

但他也保留了所有不好的画。

I find that also very interesting.

我觉得这也很有趣。

COWEN: Is that a model to emulate or a cautionary tale for you?

COWEN：这对你来说是一个值得效仿的榜样还是一个警示？

KNAUSGÅRD: I was curating a Munch exhibition in Oslo at the Munch Museum, so they gave me access to the magazine in the basement.

KNAUSGÅRD：我当时正在奥斯陆蒙克博物馆策划一场蒙克展览，所以他们让我可以在地下室查阅这本杂志。

I was shocked because it was .

我很震惊，因为它确实如此。

.

。

.

。

You know, you pull out these enormous kind of walls, and it was maybe 10 paintings or 5 paintings or 7 paintings or 15 paintings on them.

你知道，你拉开这些巨大的墙壁，上面可能有 10 幅画、5 幅画、7 幅画或 15 幅画。

And it was a complete mix-up, with masterpieces, terrible paintings, sketches, mediocre things, old things, new things.

这是一个完全的混乱，有杰作、糟糕的绘画、草图、平庸的东西、旧的东西、新的东西。

It was like being in a work of progress.

这就像正在进行一项进展中的工作。

If you go to museums, you see everything finished.

如果你去博物馆，你会看到一切都完成了。

Everything is almost stylish.

一切都近乎时尚。

Then it’s everything is art.

那么一切都是艺术。

This was completely different.

这完全不同。

This was entering into a process because the paintings they have are the paintings Munch had when he died, everything he kept, everything he didn’t sell.

这是进入一个过程，因为他们拥有的画作是蒙克去世时的画作，他保留的一切，他没有卖掉的一切。

When I did that exhibition, I thought that was an opportunity to try because .

当我做那个展览时，我认为这是一个尝试的机会，因为。

.

。

.

。

In Norway, at least, you can’t really see Munch because you’ve seen it.

至少在挪威，你无法真正看到蒙克，因为你已经见过他了。

He’s so big, and you see all the paintings so many times that you can’t really experience them.

他太大了，所有的画你看了很多遍，你无法真正体验它们。

So I tried to use other paintings to give a new access to Munch, what he was doing.

所以我尝试用其他画作来重新认识蒙克，了解他正在做的事情。

Amongst them were sort of bad paintings.

其中有一些糟糕的画作。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, yeah.

诺斯高德： 是的，是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: It’s expensive.

诺斯高德：很贵。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, yeah.

诺斯高德： 是的，是的。

It was expensive.

价格很贵。

KNAUSGÅRD: No, no. It was hard for me to buy that one.

诺斯高德：不，不。我很难买到那个。

Having a Munch in Norway is very bourgeois, and you’re very settled when you do that.

在挪威欣赏蒙克是非常资产阶级的，当你这样做的时候你会很安定。

My excuse was that I got a fee for the curation of the exhibition, and I thought I could use the fee for buying a Munch, so that’s what I got.

我的借口是我得到了展览策展费，我想我可以用这笔钱买蒙克的作品，所以我就得到了。

It’s just a drawing.

这只是一幅画。

It’s nothing, really, but it’s incredibly nice.

确实没什么，但是非常好。

To see anything with a good work of art is that you can see it every day, and you don’t get tired.

看到一件好的艺术品，就是每天都能看到，而且不会厌倦。

It’s like it gives endlessly.

就好像它给予无穷无尽。

It’s very simple, extremely simple, but it still comes something from it every day, actually, which is what you want from a piece of art.

它非常简单，非常简单，但实际上它仍然每天都从中产生一些东西，这就是你想要从一件艺术品中得到的东西。

KNAUSGÅRD: When I was a teenager, I was very much in opposition to it then.

KNAUSGÅRD：当我十几岁的时候，我非常反对它。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, but you know, I don’t really care.

KNAUSGÅRD：是的，但你知道，我真的不在乎。

That’s true.

这是真的。

I’m too busy raising children.

我太忙于抚养孩子了。

I’m too busy trying to survive that I can’t really afford to think in those terms.

我太忙于生存，根本没有能力去思考这些问题。

I remember when I got my first daughter, and I was full time with her.

我记得当我有了第一个女儿时，我全职陪伴她。

I thought, “This is very unmasculine, and this is taking away my identity.”

我想，“这太没有男子气概了，这剥夺了我的身份。”

But then I had three children and then four children, and who cares?

但后来我有了三个孩子，然后是四个孩子，谁在乎呢？

You just deal with them and try to be good and go on.

你只需与他们打交道，努力表现得好，然后继续前进。

It’s the same now.

现在也一样。

It’s about that.

就是这样。

If that’s bourgeois, if that’s what it is, I don’t care.

如果那是资产阶级，如果那就是事实，我不在乎。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

That’s hard.

这很难。

I mean, there are so many things I did that I wish I hadn’t done.

我的意思是，我做了很多事情我希望我没有做。

But that’s life.

但这就是生活。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, yeah, but that’s life.

KNAUSGÅRD：是的，是的，但这就是生活。

That’s how it is, and you can’t undo it.

事情就是这样，你无法撤销。

You do have to experience things and learn things.

你确实必须经历一些事情并学习一些东西。

I can’t tell a young father what to do, what to not do.

我无法告诉一位年轻的父亲该做什么、不该做什么。

You have to find out yourself.

你必须自己去发现。

The thing about the book, which I’m happy about, is that it covers the process.

我对这本书感到高兴的是，它涵盖了整个过程。

I wasn’t aware of that, really, but a very short period of time, really.

我确实没有意识到这一点，但确实是在很短的时间内。

I wrote it in two years.

我花了两年时间写的。

As you say, I’ve forgotten everything now in my head, but it’s in the book.

正如你所说，我现在已经忘记了一切，但书上有。

It’s captured in the book — to see how I was thinking, to see, yeah, mistakes I did or not did or whatever.

这在书中被捕捉到了——看看我是如何思考的，是的，看看我犯过或没有犯过的错误等等。

But still, it’s like a slice of life that’s in those books.

但尽管如此，这就像那些书中的生活片段。

KNAUSGÅRD: No, I don’t read my books and I don’t listen to them.

KNAUSGÅRD：不，我不读我的书，也不听它们。

In Germany, they have readings very different from here.

在德国，他们的解读与这里非常不同。

It’s readings, so you have an interview with the writer for maybe five minutes, and then it’s one hour of reading.

这是阅读，所以你会采访作者大约五分钟，然后是一小时的阅读。

When it’s a foreign writer, they have actors reading.

如果是外国作家，他们就会让演员朗读。

There have been some incredibly nice experiences if there is a good actor reading.

如果有一个好的演员读书的话，就会有一些令人难以置信的美好经历。

It’s like he makes the book into .

就像他把这本书变成了。

.

。

.

。

has nothing to do with me —

与我无关——

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

诺斯高德：是的，是的，是的。

But then it becomes proper storytelling, and it becomes literature, and that’s very strange to witness, but also very nice.

但随后它就变成了正确的讲故事，变成了文学，这看起来很奇怪，但也非常好。

KNAUSGÅRD: I think the translations are excellent.

KNAUSGÅRD：我认为翻译非常好。

Donald Bartlett — he translated five and a half of the six books, and Martin Atkins did the last part of book six.

唐纳德·巴特利特（Donald Bartlett）——他翻译了六本书中的五本半，马丁·阿特金斯（Martin Atkins）翻译了第六本书的最后一部分。

He asked me in the beginning how hands-on I wanted to be in translation, and I said, “You can do whatever you want to.

他一开始就问我在翻译方面想要多亲身实践，我说：“你可以做任何你想做的事。

I don’t want to have anything to do with it.” Then I remember getting book five in the mail, and almost accidentally, I started to read, and I just kept on reading because it was so well done.

我不想与此有任何关系。”然后我记得我收到了第五本书的邮件，几乎是意外地，我开始阅读，而且我一直在读，因为它写得非常好。

It was in English, so it was kind of removed from me, but still I recognized everything, and I think he’s a world-class translator, Donald Bartlett.

它是英文的，所以它对我来说有点遥远，但我仍然认得一切，我认为他是世界级的翻译，唐纳德·巴特利特。

But an interesting thing in that regard is that I have another translator for my other books.

但在这方面，一件有趣的事情是我的其他书有另一位翻译。

She’s a poet.

她是一位诗人。

She’s half Norwegian, half American, called Ingvild Burkey, and she translates my language completely different.

她有一半挪威血统，一半美国人血统，名叫英格维尔德·伯基（Ingvild Burkey），她用完全不同的方式翻译我的语言。

It’s a completely different feeling of her language than his language.

她的语言和他的语言给人的感觉完全不同。

Both are brilliant but in very different ways.

两者都很出色，但方式却截然不同。

He’s much more translated it into an English novel, and she’s much more translating into a Norwegian-feeling English.

他更多地把它翻译成英文小说，而她更多地翻译成挪威风格的英语。

So she’s much more close to my language, and he’s much more above, and both come from the same writing.

所以她更接近我的语言，而他则更高级，两者都来自相同的写作。

Very different, both very good.

非常不同，两者都很好。

They have different qualities, so to speak.

可以这么说，他们有不同的品质。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, good question.

KNAUSGÅRD： 是的，好问题。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, but that was a long time ago.

KNAUSGÅRD：是的，但那是很久以前的事了。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, exactly.

KNAUSGÅRD： 是的，完全正确。

KNAUSGÅRD: Not all.

诺斯高德：不是全部。

KNAUSGÅRD: No.

诺斯高德：没有。

KNAUSGÅRD: Sitting here with you, I can’t really think of any Ingmar Bergman film.

KNAUSGÅRD：和你坐在一起，我实在想不出任何英格玛·伯格曼的电影。

KNAUSGÅRD: No. I think Scenes from a Marriage is incredibly good, to be serious.

KNAUSGÅRD：不。说实话，我认为《婚姻场景》非常好。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, yeah.

诺斯高德： 是的，是的。

I think that’s his richest and best.

我认为这是他最富有和最好的。

Yeah, I think so.

是的，我想是的。

I love Persona, and I do actually — even though I know Lars von Trier hates it, I do like Fanny and Alexander also.

我喜欢《女神异闻录》，事实上我也喜欢——尽管我知道拉斯·冯·提尔讨厌它，但我也喜欢范妮和亚历山大。

It’s such a fairy tale touch to it, which I like.

这是一种童话般的感觉，我喜欢。

But no, it is Scenes from a Marriage, I think.

但不，我认为这是婚姻场景。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: That’s a hard .

KNAUSGÅRD：这很难。

.

。

.

。

I’m discussing him and his influence in book six, actually, because he is a writer I absolutely admire, and I think my writing doesn’t reach up to his knees, his writing’s knees.

实际上，我在第六本书中讨论他和他的影响，因为他是我绝对钦佩的作家，而且我认为我的写作达不到他的膝盖，他的写作的膝盖。

But My Year in the No-Man’s Bay is a book that I read — must have been in the ’90s when it came out — before being a writer myself.

但《无人湾的一年》是我在成为作家之前读过的一本书——《它出版时一定是在 90 年代》。

Or was it exactly that moment I started to be a writer, I think.

或者说正是从那一刻我开始成为一名作家，我想。

That was very influential.

那是非常有影响力的。

And his writing about the things that don’t belong in a story and the things that really don’t belong in a landscape — the areas between the city and outside of the city — the railway tracks, the grass, the fences, kind of the world as it is outside of the story, I think.

他写的东西不属于故事，也写不属于风景的东西——“城市与城外之间的区域”——“铁轨、草地、栅栏，我认为是故事之外的世界。”

He’s just .

他只是。

.

。

.

。

I don’t know, and the book about his mother is absolutely fantastic, I think.

我不知道，我认为这本关于他母亲的书绝对很棒。

KNAUSGÅRD: I’ve only read one Ferrante book, and that was Days of Abandonment.

KNAUSGÅRD：我只读过一本费兰特的书，那就是《被遗弃的日子》。

I would have cut off my left arm to write that book.

我会砍掉我的左臂来写那本书。

I think it was so absolutely brilliant.

我认为这真是太精彩了。

KNAUSGÅRD: I know, I know, I know, I know.

诺斯高德：我知道，我知道，我知道，我知道。

As I say, I have problem with things I know is very good, to enter it, because I’m not a jealous type, but I feel I will in the end.

正如我所说，我对我知道非常好的事情有疑问，因为我不是嫉妒型的人，但我觉得我最终会的。

But that book, Days of Abandonment, was really, really outstanding, good.

但这本书《遗弃的日子》真的非常非常出色，很好。

Luckily, there’s no competition here, so there’s nothing to .

幸运的是，这里没有竞争，所以没什么可做的。

.

。

.

。

I do what I can do.

我做我能做的。

You have incredibly good writers everywhere, in every country, and when I’m outside of a novel, I just look at them, and I think it feels so hopeless.

每个国家、每个地方都有非常优秀的作家，当我在小说之外时，我只是看着他们，我觉得感觉很绝望。

How are they doing this?

他们是怎么做的？

How are they managing to do this?

他们是如何做到这一点的？

And if you think like that, you can’t really write.

如果你这样想，你就无法真正写作。

It has to come, has to be personal, has to come from inside, has to be within something without looking out.

它必须到来，必须是个人的，必须来自内部，必须在某物之内而不向外看。

You have incredibly good writers everywhere, in every country, and when I’m outside of a novel, I just look at them, and I think it feels so hopeless.

每个国家、每个地方都有非常优秀的作家，当我在小说之外时，我只是看着他们，我觉得感觉很绝望。

How are they doing this?

他们是怎么做的？

How are they managing to do this?

他们是如何做到这一点的？

And if you think like that, you can’t really write.

如果你这样想，你就无法真正写作。

It has to come, has to be personal, has to come from inside, has to be within something without looking out.

它必须出现，必须是个人的，必须来自内部，必须在某物之内而不向外看。

What you’re talking about is outside of books.

你说的这些都是书本之外的东西。

Then you can start and be jealous and, “Oh, no.” Or, “Why did he get that grant and I not?” And “Why did I get so bad reviews?” And stuff.

然后你就会开始嫉妒，然后说：“哦，不。”或者，“为什么他得到了这笔资助而我却没有？”以及“为什么我得到这么差的评价？”还有东西。

That’s worthless.

那是没有价值的。

It’s completely worthless, and I try to stay away from it as much as I can.

它完全没有价值，我尽量远离它。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, he was.

KNAUSGÅRD：是的，他是。

KNAUSGÅRD: It’s very funny, a very funny flaw, I think.

KNAUSGÅRD：我认为这非常有趣，一个非常有趣的缺陷。

KNAUSGÅRD: I don’t share that, no. But he had also a mirror in his hat so he could take out his hat and look at himself, which is also very funny.

KNAUSGÅRD：我不同意这一点，不。不过他的帽子里还有一面镜子，他可以把帽子拿出来看看自己，这也很搞笑。

And he was a very little, very little man, loving medals and having a mirror in his hat.

他是一个非常非常小的男人，喜欢奖牌，帽子里有一面镜子。

That’s funny.

那很好笑。

KNAUSGÅRD: No.

诺斯高德：没有。

KNAUSGÅRD: No, no. I feel quite comfortable in Borges.

诺斯高德：不，不。我在博尔赫斯那里感觉很舒服。

I think he’s superior.

我认为他很优秀。

I think he’s a master, really a master, and an author I’ve learned a lot from, not in ways of telling a story, but what the story tells you about the world.

我认为他是一位大师，真正的大师，也是一位我从他身上学到很多东西的作家，不是讲故事的方式，而是故事告诉你关于世界的东西。

He has been very influential in my worldview, basically, especially one called “Tlön, Uqbar.” It’s a short story.

基本上，他对我的世界观影响很大，尤其是《特隆，乌克巴尔》。这是一个短篇故事。

KNAUSGÅRD: It’s just the best short story ever written, I think.

KNAUSGÅRD：我认为这是有史以来最好的短篇小说。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

Calvino is less .

卡尔维诺更少。

.

。

.

。

Calvino had .

卡尔维诺有。

.

。

.

。

yeah.

是的。

Cortázar is also very good, but he’s not Borges, I think.

科塔萨尔也很出色，但我认为他不是博尔赫斯。

And Calvino, I love.

还有卡尔维诺，我喜欢。

The Baron in the Trees — what it’s called — is one of my favorite books.

《树上的男爵》——《它叫什么名字》——是我最喜欢的书之一。

If I could write like them, I would, but I can’t.

如果我能像他们一样写作，我会的，但我不能。

Every time I have something fantastic, I mean in that sense, something that really could happen, I try to write it.

每当我有一些奇妙的事情时，我的意思是，从这个意义上说，真正可能发生的事情，我都会尝试写下来。

I can’t make it work.

我无法让它发挥作用。

Just don’t have it in me.

只是我身上没有。

Has to be some sort of realism.

必须是某种现实主义。

I have to believe in it myself.

我自己必须相信这一点。

And the magic with Borges is that you believe it completely.

博尔赫斯的魔力在于你完全相信它。

He makes it completely believable.

他让它完全可信。

And his essays are absolutely wonderful.

他的文章绝对精彩。

And in every little essay, every short story almost, you can pull something out of value.

在每一篇小文章中，几乎每一篇短篇小说中，你都可以从中提取出一些有价值的东西。

So he’s absolutely one of my favorites.

所以他绝对是我的最爱之一。

KNAUSGÅRD: Chess is not my world.

KNAUSGÅRD：国际象棋不是我的世界。

KNAUSGÅRD: Maybe not liberalism, maybe capitalism.

KNAUSGÅRD：也许不是自由主义，也许是资本主义。

KNAUSGÅRD: Good question.

诺斯高德：好问题。

KNAUSGÅRD: I don’t know, really.

KNAUSGÅRD：我真的不知道。

I wonder if fascist literature — if that’s even possible?

我想知道法西斯文学是否可能？

It’s like those two concepts are not able to —

这就像这两个概念无法——

KNAUSGÅRD: I don’t know, what do you mean by liberalism in this?

KNAUSGÅRD：我不知道，你所说的自由主义是什么意思？

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, of course.

诺斯高德： 是的，当然。

Yeah, if that’s what you meant.

是的，如果这就是你的意思。

Yeah, definitely.

是的，绝对是。

KNAUSGÅRD: What I’m struggling for in my writing is what I call literary freedom, and it’s a space where I can be free in every sense, where I can say whatever, go wherever I want to.

诺斯高德：我在写作中所追求的就是我所说的文学自由，这是一个我可以在各种意义上自由的空间，在那里我可以说任何话，去任何我想去的地方。

And for me, literature is almost the only place you could think that that is a possibility.

对我来说，文学几乎是唯一能让你认为有这种可能性的地方。

What I’m struggling for in my writing is what I call literary freedom, and it’s a space where I can be free in every sense, where I can say whatever, go wherever I want to.

我在写作中所追求的就是我所谓的文学自由，这是一个我可以在各种意义上自由的空间，在那里我可以说任何话，去任何我想去的地方。

And for me, literature is almost the only place you could think that that is a possibility.

对我来说，文学几乎是唯一能让你认为有这种可能性的地方。

My fear is that that space has come closing down on you.

我担心这个空间已经对你关闭了。

You’re closing it down yourself and becoming more afraid for what you’re saying.

你自己关闭了它，并且对你所说的话变得更加害怕。

“Can I say this?

“我可以这么说吗？

Can I do this?” And this power is also strong, you know?

我可以这样做吗？而且这个力量也很强你知道吗？

It’s so hard to go somewhere you know this is wrong, or this is .

很难去一个你知道这是错误的地方，或者这是错误的地方。

.

。

.

。

I did it with My Struggle because I wrote about my family, and I knew, of course, I shouldn’t do this, and really it is immoral to do this.

我在《我的奋斗》中这样做是因为我写了我的家庭，我当然知道我不应该这样做，而且这样做确实是不道德的。

And then I did it because I wanted to say what I wanted to say, and I wanted to be free to talk about, to write about my own life in a complete and in a free way.

然后我这样做是因为我想说出我想说的话，我想自由地谈论，以完整、自由的方式写下我自己的生活。

That’s also why I admire writers like Peter Handke.

这也是我钦佩彼得·汉德克这样的作家的原因。

He had the Yugoslavia controversy around him, and you have a lot of controversies around him.

他周围有南斯拉夫争议，你周围也有很多争议。

But what he does is, he’s there.

但他所做的是，他就在那里。

He’s hardcore, saying what he thinks and stands for it, no matter how ugly it looks from the outside.

他是铁杆人物，说出他的想法并代表它，无论从外面看起来多么丑陋。

And that’s what you can do in literature and no other place, I think.

我认为，这就是你在文学中可以做的事情，而在其他地方是做不到的。

This is an internal struggle in every writer, I think.

我想，这是每个作家内心的斗争。

And it goes in almost all levels of society.

它几乎遍及社会的各个层面。

I find it hardest to go into the private places that belong to my family and my life, but you have all the political topics.

我发现最难进入属于我的家人和我的生活的私人场所，但你有所有的政治话题。

You have a lot of things you can think of.

你有很多你能想到的事情。

But it’s good that it’s a struggle, and it’s good that there’s an arena where we can have these fights.

但这是一场斗争，这很好，有一个我们可以进行这些斗争的竞技场，这很好。

But the notion that literature should be good in a moral sense — that I find ridiculous.

但认为文学在道德意义上应该是好的这一观念——我觉得很荒谬。

That’s useless.

那是没用的。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

When I was little, it was Lee Falk’s Phantom.

我小的时候，那是Lee Falk的《Phantom》。

That was really big in Norway.

这在挪威确实很重要。

A bit older, it was Modesty Blaise.

莫德斯蒂·布莱斯（Modesty Blaise）年纪稍大一些。

But I read absolutely everything.

但我绝对读了所有内容。

KNAUSGÅRD: Then, in the ’70s, it was very sexist, very racist, and all kinds of things.

KNAUSGÅRD：然后，在 70 年代，这是非常性别歧视、种族主义以及各种各样的事情。

My mother discovered what I actually was reading, so she forbid me to read comics, which was a very harsh punishment, it felt at that time.

我妈妈发现了我到底在看什么，所以她不准我看漫画，当时感觉这是一个非常严厉的惩罚。

But it made me start to read books.

但这让我开始看书。

So it was a good thing in the end.

所以这最终是一件好事。

She was completely shocked by what I was reading, and it was common.

她对我读到的内容感到完全震惊，这很常见。

But that was the ’70s.

但那是 70 年代。

I think it has changed, maybe.

我想也许已经改变了。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah.

诺斯高德：是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: I learned a lot.

诺斯高德：我学到了很多东西。

But what can I say?

但我能说什么？

It was like running into a wall.

就像撞到墙上一样。

I was running full speed into a wall, and I fell down, and I lay down.

我全速跑到墙上，然后摔倒了，躺了下来。

For six, seven years I couldn’t write after that.

此后六七年里我无法写作。

I was young when I started.

我刚开始的时候还很年轻。

I had all this illusion about myself and about literature and what I could do, and I couldn’t do anything.

我对自己、文学以及我能做的事情抱有这样的幻想，但我却什么也做不了。

I felt like they were ridiculing me, and they were, actually.

我觉得他们在嘲笑我，事实上，他们确实是在嘲笑我。

Then it took many years, and then I could write.

然后又过了很多年，我才可以写作。

And what I learned — I met the world literature.

而我学到的东西 —— 我接触了世界文学。

KNAUSGÅRD: And I met also a writer that is, yes, he is Norway’s best writer.

KNAUSGÅRD：我还遇到了一位作家，是的，他是挪威最好的作家。

He is called Jon Fosse, and he was 29 at the time, and he was a teacher there.

他叫乔恩·福斯（Jon Fosse），当时 29 岁，是那里的一名老师。

His notion of quality is absolute, and he was very, very important to me just because he showed me where the level should be.

他对质量的看法是绝对的，他对我来说非常非常重要，因为他向我展示了水平应该在哪里。

I haven’t reached that level, but I’m above where I was when I was 20, at least.

我还没有达到那个水平，但至少比我20岁时的水平高了。

And it was very good to know that.

很高兴知道这一点。

“This is literature; this is what literature can do.”

“这就是文学；这就是文学所能做的。”

But it was completely terrible for me at the time and many years afterwards because I had no self-confidence.

但这对当时和多年后的我来说完全是可怕的，因为我没有自信。

They took away all my self-confidence.

他们夺走了我所有的自信。

I couldn’t write.

我写不了。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, yeah.

诺斯高德： 是的，是的。

KNAUSGÅRD: In the end, it was a very good thing.

KNAUSGÅRD：最终，这是一件非常好的事情。

KNAUSGÅRD: I haven’t got it back.

KNAUSGÅRD：我还没拿回来。

KNAUSGÅRD: No, but I have helpers to help me.

KNAUSGÅRD：不，但我有帮手帮助我。

They want to pick me up from nothing, and my assistant editor — I really couldn’t write when he saw something I’d written and believed in me.

他们想把我从一无所有中拉出来，而我的助理编辑 —— 当他看到我写的东西并相信我时，我真的写不出来。

He still believes in me, and he has to tell me that — every week — what I’m doing is interesting, what I’m doing is good, and that he believes in me.

他仍然相信我，他必须告诉我 — 每周 — 我所做的事情很有趣，我所做的事情很好，并且他相信我。

And he has done so for 20 years.

他这样做已经有20年了。

Without him, I wouldn’t have been a writer.

没有他，我就不会成为一名作家。

I also have friends who do the same thing.

我也有做同样事情的朋友。

They said, “Okay, this is good.

他们说：“好吧，这很好。

Don’t give up.

不要放弃。

Keep on writing.” And they did because if not, I wouldn’t have the strength to do it.

继续写。”他们这样做了，因为如果不这样做，我就没有力量这样做。

Maybe I would, but it makes my writing life much easier to have helpers.

也许我会，但是有帮助者会让我的写作生活变得更加轻松。

KNAUSGÅRD: I really don’t know.

诺斯高德：我真的不知道。

I’ve always been interested in the physicality of man, matter, the brain itself, the physicality of the brain, the way we are animals, the way we eat, and the way we take the world in, and the primitiveness of us.

我一直对人的物质性、物质、大脑本身、大脑的物质性、我们作为动物的方式、我们饮食的方式、我们看待世界的方式以及我们的原始性感兴趣。

And then, you know, the heaven above, all the things we dream of.

然后，你知道，上面的天堂，我们梦想的一切。

When I read the Bible, something that occurred to me was the physicality of the angels.

当我读圣经时，我想到的是天使的肉体。

That’s such a wonderful image.

那真是一个美妙的画面。

And I thought, “Okay, they were eating in the Bible, they are walking with God in the Bible.”

我想，“好吧，他们在圣经中吃饭，他们在圣经中与神同行。”

I thought, “What if I read the Bible from that perspective?

我想：“如果我从这个角度来读圣经呢？

What happened to the angels?

天使们怎么了？

Where are they?” Because they saw angels before.

他们在哪儿？因为他们以前见过天使。

We don’t see them.

我们没有看到他们。

Then I thought, “Okay, maybe they have been tempted to be in the physical world too much, and then kind of been almost centrifuged into the world and been part of the world and can’t escape, and they’re still here around us.”

然后我想，“好吧，也许他们太受诱惑进入物质世界，然后几乎被离心到这个世界，成为世界的一部分，无法逃脱，但他们仍然在我们身边。”

That was the thought.

这就是我的想法。

And in a way, it’s a metaphor for what happened with religion, why we’re not .

在某种程度上，这是宗教所发生的事情的隐喻，以及为什么我们没有。

.

。

.

。

many of us don’t believe anymore.

我们中的许多人不再相信了。

Why there’s no heaven above us except commercials and TV programs and stuff.

为什么除了广告和电视节目之类的东西之外，我们的头顶上没有天堂。

What happened?

发生了什么？

What happened with religion?

宗教发生了什么？

What happened with God?

神怎么了？

What happened with heavens?

天上到底发生了什么？

You know?

你知道？

How come we are all down here now, and what’s that about?

我们怎么现在都在这儿了，这是怎么回事？

That was not why I wrote it, but that was the outcome of the writing.

这不是我写它的原因，但这就是写作的结果。

KNAUSGÅRD: Yeah, that’s true.

诺斯高德：是的，确实如此。

And it’s only like eight lines or something in the Bible.

它就像圣经中的八行或其他内容。

It’s almost nothing.

几乎什么都没有。

It’s so rich, and it’s like it’s bottomless.

真是太丰富了，简直就像是深不见底一样。

They have been discussing that and reading that for thousands of years, and you can still say something new about it.

几千年来他们一直在讨论和阅读这个问题，但你仍然可以对此说一些新的东西。

That simple story — a brother killing another brother.

那个简单的故事——一个兄弟杀死另一个兄弟。

I’m just reading about gnosticism now.

我现在正在读有关诺斯替主义的书。

They take a liking — some of them — for Cain.

他们喜欢————其中一些人————该隐。

They like to turn everything upside down.

他们喜欢把一切都颠倒过来。

So God is really the devil, and this really is hell, and Cain is really the good one, the one to look at.

所以上帝确实是魔鬼，这确实是地狱，而该隐确实是好人，值得一看的人。

You know, it’s just an endlessly fascinating thing.

你知道，这真是一件令人无限着迷的事情。

It means so much — so many layers of meaning in that simple, simple story.

它意义重大——在这个简单的故事中蕴藏着如此多的层次。

That’s the best part of the Bible: those very short stories.

这是圣经中最好的部分：那些非常短的故事。

Incredibly rich and layered with meaning.

令人难以置信的丰富和层次的意义。

KNAUSGÅRD: My take on The Scream?

KNAUSGÅRD：我对《呐喊》的看法？

You know, that’s what happens when you’re writing.

你知道，这就是你写作时会发生的情况。

You just start.

你就开始吧。

I just sat down with a Munch book and thought, “Okay, I’ll write a book about Munch.

我只是坐下来阅读一本蒙克的书，然后想：“好吧，我会写一本关于蒙克的书。

Let’s see where this goes.” Then you just enter it, and then comes something back, and then, two months later, you have a book.

让我们看看这会走向何方。”然后你只要输入它，然后返回一些东西，然后，两个月后，你就得到了一本书。

The Scream is one of the most iconic paintings there is.

《尖叫》是最具标志性的画作之一。

Everyone, I think, has seen it.

我想，每个人都已经看到了。

It’s so recognizable.

真是太有辨识度了

And almost we have an intimate knowledge of it.

我们对此几乎了如指掌。

We see it, you know?

我们看到了，你知道吗？

But the painting is about the opposite.

但这幅画却恰恰相反。

It’s about something very strange.

这是关于一些非常奇怪的事情。

It’s hard to do this in English, but it’s about the world being almost unrecognizable.

用英语很难做到这一点，但它讲述的是这个世界几乎无法辨认。

It’s seeing how strange the world is.

看到这个世界有多么奇怪。

And we do this in that painting that we instantly recognize.

我们在我们立即认出的那幅画中做到了这一点。

And it’s a painting about anxiety, and anxiety is incredibly painful.

这是一幅关于焦虑的画，而焦虑是极其痛苦的。

So, it is a painting about pain.

所以，这是一幅关于痛苦的画。

But we see a million dollars, we see its fame.

但我们看到了一百万美元，我们看到了它的名气。

We don’t see that.

我们没有看到这一点。

But the interesting thing for me when I wrote about it was what kind of paintings Munch had access to and how they painted at that time.

但当我写这篇文章时，对我来说有趣的是蒙克接触到了什么样的画作以及他们当时是如何画的。

Because no matter how painful things were, they were always taking place in a space, in a room.

因为无论事情多么痛苦，它们总是发生在一个空间、一个房间里。

And having that space, having that room, you know the events in that room will one day be over.

有了那个空间，有了那个房间，你知道那个房间里的事件有一天会结束。

Something new will take place there.

那里将会发生一些新的事情。

If Madame Bovary is very painful — the ending — but you know that world will continue.

如果包法利夫人很痛苦 —— 结局 —— 但你知道世界还会继续。

And there is a kind of a comfort in that.

这其中有一种安慰。

There isn’t an acuteness in it.

没有什么尖锐的地方。

You could see it.

你可以看到它。

You know it will pass.

你知道一切都会过去。

And you observe it from the outside, so you see it at a distance.

你从外面观察它，所以你在远处看到它。

You see something painful — a sick girl — at a distance, and it’s in another room, and it will pass.

你在远处看到一些痛苦的东西——一个生病的女孩，而且它在另一个房间里，它就会过去。

There is a comfort in that.

这有一种安慰。

But Munch does set in that painting to remove that room, to remove that space.

但蒙克确实在那幅画中移除了那个房间，移除了那个空间。

Because all the landscape is subdued to the person in the painting.

因为所有的风景都被画中的人所征服。

So it’s his landscapes.

所以这是他的风景。

There’s no room in it; there’s no neutrality.

里面没有空间；没有中立性。

When that person is gone, the landscape is gone.

当那个人走了，风景就消失了。

So, there is no space, and there is no time.

所以，没有空间，也没有时间。

It’s instantly painting, it’s acute.

它立即绘画，非常敏锐。

It’s like it’s happening now, and we share the space with the painting.

就好像它正在发生一样，我们与绘画共享这个空间。

And in that is the radicality of the painting — that there’s no space and there’s no comfort.

这就是这幅画的激进之处——没有空间，也没有舒适感。

It’s an acute thing.

这是一件很尖锐的事情。

It’s instant, and you have to relate to it.

它是即时的，你必须与它产生联系。

You can’t see that painting without relating to it.

如果不与它相关，你就无法看到那幅画。

I mean when you saw it for the first time.

我的意思是当你第一次看到它的时候。

And the interesting thing now, I think, is that that’s a fair description of the world — how it is now.

我认为，现在有趣的事情是，这是对世界的公平描述——“它现在是什么样子”。

It is an instant world.

这是一个即时的世界。

We get access to painful things that happens when it happens.

当痛苦的事情发生时，我们就会接触到它。

Today, there was a massacre in New Zealand.

今天，新西兰发生了一场大屠杀。

The minute it happens, we know about it, we relate to it, we feel the pain, and we see the pictures.

当事情发生的那一刻，我们就知道了它，我们与它产生了联系，我们感受到了痛苦，我们看到了照片。

That didn’t just happen.

那并不是刚刚发生的。

That didn’t happen at Munch’s time.

这在蒙克时代并没有发生。

It was unheard of.

这是闻所未闻的。

Now that’s the world.

现在这就是世界。

We live in the world of Scream.

我们生活在《尖叫》的世界里。

There’s no space between us and the world.

我们和世界之间没有空间。

Everything comes bombarding us, you know?

一切都在轰炸我们，你知道吗？

So, what art has to do now is the opposite.

所以，艺术现在要做的事情恰恰相反。

It has to create space.

它必须创造空间。

It has to recreate rooms.

它必须重新创建房间。

And I was thinking about that and also writing in the book about — I was at an exhibition of Anselm Kiefer here in London.

我正在思考这个问题，并在书中写道：“我当时正在伦敦参加安塞姆·基弗的展览。

It was the White Cube.

那是白立方。

It was absolutely magnificent, but there was no people in it; it was only spaces, only room.

那真是太宏伟了，但里面空无一人。这只是空间，只是房间。

And it was kind of mythological rooms.

这是一种神话般的房间。

It was like it was giving space to events that wasn’t even there, back somehow.

就好像它为那些根本不存在的事件提供了空间，不知何故又回来了。

I think both Kiefer and Munch are great artists, but they live in different times and they had different missions.

我认为基弗和蒙克都是伟大的艺术家，但他们生活在不同的时代，有不同的使命。

For Munch, it was very important to give access directly to pain and to distorted vision of the world, and to give a more true account of how it is to be, I think he wanted to do.

对于蒙克来说，直接接触痛苦和扭曲的世界观，并更真实地描述世界的本质是非常重要的，我想他想做的。

And now it’s the opposite because now we need space and we need comfort and we need time and we need something.

现在情况恰恰相反，因为现在我们需要空间，我们需要舒适，我们需要时间，我们需要一些东西。

I’m not sure if art is what should do that, but that’s what I felt when I started to write about Munch.

我不确定艺术是否应该做到这一点，但这就是我开始写蒙克时的感受。

And another interesting thing is that exactly the same thing is going on in the literature at that time, you know?

另一件有趣的事情是，当时的文献中也发生了完全相同的事情，你知道吗？

You have the epic novel with all the characters, all the rooms.

你拥有一部包含所有角色、所有房间的史诗小说。

Tolstoy is a very good example because that is a book about rooms.

托尔斯泰是一个很好的例子，因为那是一本关于房间的书。

And then you have, for instance, Knut Hamsun in Hunger, which is just one person and his distorted version of the world that exists.

然后，例如《饥饿》中的克努特·汉姆生，这只是一个人和他对现存世界的扭曲版本。

And when he dies, the world disappears.

当他死后，世界就消失了。

KNAUSGÅRD: Thank you.

诺斯高德： 谢谢。