Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Jazz, Fighting Bruce Lee, Growing Up in Harlem, and Basketball (Ep. 6 - Live at Mason)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is one of America’s leading public intellectuals.
卡里姆·阿卜杜勒·贾巴尔是美国领先的公共知识分子之一。
I would describe him as an offshoot of the Harlem Renaissance, and what he and I share in common is a fascination with the character of Mycroft Holmes, the subject of Kareem’s latest book — and that of course, is Sherlock Holmes’s brother.
我将他描述为哈莱姆文艺复兴的一个分支，他和我的共同点是对麦克罗夫特·福尔摩斯这个角色的迷恋，这是卡里姆最新书的主题——当然，他是夏洛克·福尔摩斯的兄弟。
On modern day segregation
论现代的种族隔离
We’re going to start with some questions.
我们将从一些问题开始。
I’d like to turn to the topic of segregation.
我想谈谈种族隔离这个话题。
What I find interesting is that according to some metrics, in this country, racial segregation has become worse rather than better.
我发现有趣的是，根据一些指标，在这个国家，种族隔离变得更糟而不是更好。
Just a simple example — in 1988, 43 percent of black students were in majority-white schools.
举个简单的例子——1988 年，43% 的黑人学生就读于白人占多数的学校。
Today, that’s gone down to 23 percent.
如今，这一比例已降至 23%。
Now we have an African-American president.
现在我们有一位非裔美国总统。
In some ways, the country seems less prejudiced.
在某些方面，这个国家似乎没有那么偏见。
How has this happened?
这是怎么发生的？
What has gone wrong?
出了什么问题？
My opinion on that is the fact that the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act led to other acts that tried as hard as they could to eliminate segregation in housing, the practice of redlining and those types of things, where blacks and other minorities were denied access to neighborhoods that had been all white.
我对此的看法是，《投票权法》和《民权法》导致了其他法案，这些法案尽最大努力消除住房隔离、红线做法以及诸如此类的行为，即黑人和其他少数族裔被拒绝进入原本全是白人的社区。
Now that we’ve dealt with that situation changing for a good 30 years or so, the majority of the housing patterns that have developed from that is what we used to call de facto segregation — people moving to where they want to move, and living with the people that they want to live with.
现在我们已经应对了这种情况的变化了大约 30 年，由此发展而来的大多数住房模式就是我们过去所说的事实上的隔离——人们搬到他们想搬到的地方，并与他们想住在一起的人住在一起。
Maybe — and this is just a maybe, but I think it’s pretty accurate — that has caused another round of de facto segregation, where people are now living where they want to live, but the racial makeup of the neighborhood, or the composition of the neighborhood, is still quite similar to when segregation was the law, and people didn’t self-segregate.
也许 —— 这只是一个可能，但我认为这是相当准确的 —— 这导致了另一轮事实上的隔离，人们现在住在他们想住的地方，但社区的种族构成，或者社区的构成，仍然与种族隔离成为法律时非常相似，人们没有自我隔离。
I think that’s what it’s all about.
我认为这就是全部内容。
I’m an economist, as you may know, and I’ve wondered if we shouldn’t entertain the idea of making building easier to do in cities such as San Francisco, in essence to deregulate high-density residential construction and get a lot more mixing in school districts.
你可能知道，我是一名经济学家，我想知道我们是否不应该考虑让旧金山等城市的建筑变得更容易，本质上是放松对高密度住宅建设的管制，并在学区实现更多的混合。
Does that make sense to you?
这对你来说有意义吗？
Yes, it could, if you can enforce it.
是的，可以，如果你能强制执行的话。
The trick is always in enforcement.
诀窍始终在于执行。
People pay lip service to an ideal, and then the reality of it ends up being a little bit short, and we’re still disappointed.
人们口头上追求理想，但现实却有点短暂，我们仍然感到失望。
Let me ask you another question about this new segregation.
让我再问你一个关于这种新种族隔离的问题。
You may not be able to tell just by looking at me, but I actually grew up as a nerdy white guy.
光看我的外表你可能看不出来，但我实际上是作为一个书呆子白人长大的。
I can look at the numbers and see the same problem that you see, but in terms of a feel for how the new segregation has developed, due to your different life experience, what do you think it is that you grasp that maybe I can read about, but don’t fully, intuitively get, and that you could explain to us?
我可以看看这些数字，看到你看到的同样的问题，但就对新种族隔离如何发展的感受而言，由于你不同的生活经历，你认为你掌握的是什么，也许我可以读到，但没有完全、直观地理解，你可以向我们解释一下？
Do you see what I’m asking?
你明白我在问什么吗？
Are you asking about the way — the patterns?
你是在问“方式”——“模式”吗？
The way it actually works and feels.
它实际的工作方式和感觉。
Something that’s not in the numbers, but that you understand better than I do, because you have a different, and in some ways deeper, richer, longer life experience.
有些东西不在于数字，但你比我更了解，因为你有不同的、在某些方面更深刻、更丰富、更长久的生活经历。
I would think that the fact that as a black American, I can go and buy a home in any neighborhood that I can afford to move into, and the law is going to back me, I think that is a big factor in all of this.
我认为，作为一名美国黑人，我可以在任何我能负担得起的社区买房，而且法律会支持我，我认为这是所有这一切的一个重要因素。
If black people can go where they want to go, and no one is going to oppose them, I think that’s a good thing, and that is people making their own choices without any coercion from the law, enforcing something that some people find odious.
如果黑人可以去他们想去的地方，没有人反对他们，我认为这是一件好事，那就是人们在没有任何法律强制的情况下做出自己的选择，强制执行一些人认为令人厌恶的事情。
I think you’re 68 years old, according to Wikipedia.
根据维基百科，我认为你已经 68 岁了。
Yes.
是的。
You’ve been in this country for a while.
你来这个国家已经有一段时间了。
The general question of prejudice through a kind of bigotry of soft expectations: how much better is that today in your opinion?
由于对软期望的偏执而产生的普遍偏见问题：您认为今天的情况有多好？
I don’t think the soft expectations have benefited minority communities very well.
我认为软期望并没有让少数族裔社区受益匪浅。
I think we still suffer from that.
我认为我们仍然深受其害。
A lot of people seem to be able to accept it and understand it because they know how terrible our public school systems are and how they have failed, in many cases, to educate the students in their districts.
很多人似乎能够接受并理解这一点，因为他们知道我们的公立学校系统有多么糟糕，以及在许多情况下他们如何未能教育好所在地区的学生。
I think that failure has led to a lot of these problems and has given rise to a segregation of schooling where you have private schools that are for wealthy white people and the public schools that have very poor teachers and very bad facilities that are for everyone else.
我认为失败导致了很多这样的问题，并导致了学校教育的隔离，私立学校是为富有的白人开设的，而公立学校的师资很差，设施很差，是为其他人开设的。
We suffer because of that.
我们因此而受苦。
What’s your view of charter schools?
您对特许学校有何看法？
Charter schools are an attempt to stem the flow of that dynamic.
特许学校就是试图阻止这种动力的蔓延。
I hope that they get something done.
我希望他们能有所作为。
The grade school I went to in Manhattan is now a charter school.
我在曼哈顿上的小学现在是一所特许学校。
It was a Catholic school.
那是一所天主教学校。
It’s been taken over as a charter school.
它已被接管为特许学校。
That seems to be the trend.
这似乎是趋势。
As you know, here at Arlington we’re very close to Howard University.
如您所知，在阿灵顿，我们离霍华德大学非常近。
If you look at trends, there seems to be a long-term decline in all or mostly or majority black colleges and universities.
如果你看一下趋势，就会发现所有或大部分或大多数黑人学院和大学似乎都在长期下降。
Enrollments are significantly down.
入学人数大幅下降。
But they’ve played a very important role in African-American and also Caribbean intellectual history.
但他们在非裔美国人和加勒比地区的思想史上发挥了非常重要的作用。
Do you think there’s still room for institutions such as Howard?
您认为像霍华德这样的机构还有空间吗？
Do you think their future is promising?
你觉得他们的未来有希望吗？
How do you see those developing?
您如何看待这些发展？
What’s your view there?
您对此有何看法？
I don’t know how they’re going to survive over the long term because the whole concept of segregated schooling doesn’t really work.
我不知道他们将如何长期生存，因为隔离学校教育的整个概念并没有真正发挥作用。
We have to figure out a new template to make it work for everyone.
我们必须找出一个新的模板，使其适用于每个人。
We have to figure out a way in America to make our educational system work for everybody, all groups.
我们必须在美国找到一种方法，让我们的教育体系为每个人、所有群体服务。
All socioeconomic levels need to be able to be included.
所有社会经济层面都需要能够被包括在内。
That’s not happening right now.
现在还没有发生这种情况。
I’m pleased to report, by the way, that a few years ago there was a study.
顺便说一句，我很高兴地报告，几年前有一项研究。
George Mason came out, I think, as the second most mixed ethnically, racially, and otherwise university in the whole country.
我认为，乔治梅森大学是全国民族、种族和其他方面第二混合最多的大学。
We’ve tried here to do that.
我们已经尝试这样做了。
That’s great.
那太棒了。
One reader writes to me, “Ask Kareem what are some highly leveraged actions we could take to improve systematic poverty in this country.”
一位读者写信给我，“问问卡里姆，我们可以采取哪些高杠杆行动来改善这个国家的系统性贫困。”
I don’t know how we’re going to work on the poverty situation unless, again, the educational system is up to speed and can educate people so they can escape poverty.
我不知道我们将如何解决贫困问题，除非教育系统能够跟上步伐并能够教育人们，使他们能够摆脱贫困。
You can’t escape poverty given that you can barely read and write.
鉴于你几乎不会读写，你就无法摆脱贫困。
That’s not going to work.
那是行不通的。
You can get a job lifting things or you can get a job — I have a friend, his son is an underachiever at school.
你可以找一份搬东西的工作，或者你可以找一份工作 —— 我有一个朋友，他的儿子在学校成绩不佳。
I told him to tell him if you can memorize eight words he can be employed for the rest of his life.
我让他告诉他，如果你能记住八个字，他就可以受雇一辈子。
The guy said, “What are those eight words?” I said, “Welcome to McDonald’s.
那人道：“这八个字是什么？”我说：“欢迎来到麦当劳。
May I take your order?”
我可以接受您的命令吗？
That’s what it’s coming down to.
这就是最终的结果。
Speaking of policies, the war on drugs.
说到政策，那就是禁毒战争。
Is it working?
有效吗？
Is it racist?
这是种族主义吗？
Is it wrecking our inner cities?
它正在破坏我们的内城吗？
What’s your view?
你的看法是什么？
I think the war on drugs was racist.
我认为禁毒战争是种族主义的。
I don’t think it’s the same now.
我认为现在不一样了。
People are starting to see that drug addiction can affect any and everybody.
人们开始意识到毒瘾会影响任何人和每个人。
There was an article in the New York Times last week about how now that the scourge of heroin addiction has entered the suburbs and majority-white communities they’re starting to understand what it’s all about.
上周《纽约时报》发表了一篇文章，内容是海洛因成瘾的祸害已经进入郊区和白人占多数的社区，他们开始明白这到底是怎么回事。
The futility in just using incarceration to try to cure the problem.
仅仅通过监禁来解决问题是徒劳的。
We have to do a better job teaching people about their self-worth.
我们必须更好地教导人们自我价值。
And we have to do a better job at giving opportunity to people who, if they don’t sell drugs, they can’t participate in any economy.
我们必须更好地为那些如果不销售毒品就无法参与任何经济的人们提供机会。
The drug-selling economy is the only one that they can participate in.
贩毒经济是他们唯一可以参与的经济。
That’s a recipe for failure.
这是失败的秘诀。
Would you decriminalize and, in essence, stop the war on drugs?
你会让毒品合法化并从本质上停止毒品战争吗？
I don’t think you can completely decriminalize it.
我认为你不能完全将其合法化。
But you have to understand that there is something that we want to rescue from the situation, and that’s people’s lives.
但你必须明白，我们想要从这种情况中拯救一些东西，那就是人们的生命。
I think people’s lives should be given the priority in how to solve this problem — getting people off of these things and understanding that it’s very detrimental to their future.
我认为如何解决这个问题应该优先考虑人们的生活——让人们远离这些事情，并理解这对他们的未来非常不利。
On conservatism’s place in Kareem’s thought
论保守主义在卡里姆思想中的地位
Here’s a sentence you wrote in your book, Kareem.
这是你在书中写的一句话，卡里姆。
I’ll read it out loud.
我会大声读出来。
Tell me if you would still say the same, because that book is now a few years old.
告诉我你是否还会这么说，因为那本书已经有几年了。
“The Republican agenda seems basically indifferent to people’s hardships, but I agree with its position that handouts are not the solution to social problems.”
“共和党的议程似乎基本上对人们的困难漠不关心，但我同意其立场，即施舍并不是解决社会问题的方法。”
I still agree with that, but they have to be open to the fact that the solutions that they have put forward haven’t worked.
我仍然同意这一点，但他们必须接受这样一个事实：他们提出的解决方案并未奏效。
I am still anxious to hear from some of the conservatives what the conservative solution is for chronic underemployment and the failure of our educational system.
我仍然渴望听到一些保守派的意见，保守派对长期就业不足和我们教育体系失败的解决方案是什么。
We need a solution to that.
我们需要一个解决方案。
Why haven’t the conservatives come forward with a solution?
为什么保守派没有提出解决方案？
They seem to think that they have the answer.
他们似乎认为自己已经找到了答案。
What’s going on with that?
这是怎么回事？
Some of that may be indifference, right?
其中一些可能是冷漠，对吧？
I think it’s indifference or the fact that the contempt that they have for the people who are the first victims of it, which are poor people of color who that’s the only economy they can get into.
我认为这是冷漠，或者是他们对第一批受害者的蔑视，这些人是贫穷的有色人种，他们是他们唯一能进入的经济体。
They are almost forced into criminal activity because of their lack of education and the vulnerability that they have, being raised the way that they’ve been raised.
由于缺乏教育和成长方式的脆弱性，他们几乎被迫从事犯罪活动。
As we were chatting back in the green room I was saying I read you, in essence, as a kind of modern conservative.
当我们在休息室聊天时，我说我本质上把你视为一种现代保守派。
Not in the sense of being a contemporary Republican, but in terms of patriotism, respect for the military, belief in some kind of capitalism and getting ahead, work ethic.
不是在当代共和党的意义上，而是在爱国主义、对军队的尊重、对某种资本主义的信仰和不断进步、职业道德方面。
And that you’re actually, today, one of America’s leading conservative intellectuals, I would say.
我想说，你今天实际上是美国领先的保守派知识分子之一。
Would you accept that or push back?
你会接受还是反对？
I value all of those things that you just mentioned, all of those scenarios that you just mentioned.
我重视你刚才提到的所有这些事情，所有你刚才提到的场景。
I think they’re very valuable.
我认为它们非常有价值。
And they have made America a great place.
他们使美国成为一个伟大的地方。
We can’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
我们不能把婴儿和洗澡水一起倒掉。
Those ideas and ideals have served this country very well.
这些想法和理想非常适合这个国家。
I don’t think we need to abandon them.
我认为我们不需要放弃他们。
We just have to find a way to extend them to all segments of society.
我们只需要找到一种方法将它们扩展到社会的各个阶层。
Two thinkers I want to bring up who share some biographical commonalities with you but came out with very different points.
我想介绍两位思想家，他们在传记上与你们有一些共同点，但他们的观点却截然不同。
Amiri Baraka, originally LeRoi Jones, he converted to Islam, was an intellectual, a great poet, extremely talented.
阿米里·巴拉卡（Amiri Baraka）原名勒罗伊·琼斯（LeRoi Jones），他皈依伊斯兰教，是一位知识分子，一位伟大的诗人，才华横溢。
Like you, very much a polymath.
像你一样，非常博学。
But he stayed very radically left.
但他仍然非常激进地左派。
He had a black nationalist period, he had a communist period, went through a lot of transformations, but no one would really describe him as any kind of conservative.
他有一个黑人民族主义时期，他有一个共产主义时期，经历了很多转变，但没有人会真正把他描述为任何一种保守派。
You, like Baraka, converted to Islam but have a very different point of view.
你和巴拉卡一样，皈依了伊斯兰教，但观点却截然不同。
What accounts for that difference in the two of you?
是什么造成了你们两个人的差异？
I believe you knew him, even.
我相信你甚至认识他。
I did know Amiri.
我确实认识阿米里。
I think the difference is I believe in what happened in Europe during what they call the Enlightenment.
我认为不同之处在于我相信欧洲在他们所谓的启蒙运动期间发生的事情。
That needs to happen to black Americans, absolutely a type of enlightenment where they get a grasp of what is afflicting them and what the cures are.
这需要发生在美国黑人身上，这绝对是一种启蒙，让他们了解困扰他们的是什么以及治疗方法是什么。
I think that the American model is the best in the world but in order to get everybody involved in it we have to have it open to everyone.
我认为美国模式是世界上最好的，但为了让每个人都参与其中，我们必须向每个人开放。
That hasn’t always been the case.
但情况并非总是如此。
Open to far less segregation and very different attitudes.
对更少的隔离和截然不同的态度持开放态度。
Yeah, with less segregation and just the whole concept of trying to get the best and the brightest, get them the best education that we can so that they can do what they want within their power to continue to make America the great place that it is.
是的，减少种族隔离，努力吸引最优秀和最聪明的人才，为他们提供我们力所能及的最好的教育，这样他们就可以在自己的力量范围内做自己想做的事，继续让美国成为一个伟大的地方。
When I prepare for these talks I do some background reading.
当我准备这些演讲时，我会做一些背景阅读。
Some of the reading I did for this — I read biographies or works on Charles Barkley, Magic Johnson, Jackie Robinson.
我为此读了一些书——我读了查尔斯·巴克利、魔术师约翰逊、杰基·罗宾逊的传记或著作。
Robinson, early on, he even endorsed Richard Nixon, which he later regretted.
罗宾逊早期甚至支持理查德·尼克松，但后来他后悔了。
He learned Nixon was a liar and a fraud, but that he even had that inclination.
他了解到尼克松是个骗子和骗子，但他甚至有这种倾向。
Arthur Ashe, yourself.
亚瑟·阿什，你自己。
I wondered if there isn’t a pattern where African-American athletes are, in the way that you are, actually somewhat conservative.
我想知道非裔美国运动员是否像你一样实际上有些保守。
If I compare that to African-American intellectuals, people like Cornel West, they seem to be more radical on average.
如果我将其与像科内尔·韦斯特这样的非裔美国知识分子进行比较，他们平均起来似乎更加激进。
Whether you would agree with that characterization.
您是否同意这种描述。
If so, what do you think accounts for it?
如果是这样，您认为是什么原因造成的？
I think people like Cornel West, I wouldn’t necessarily say that they were radical.
我认为像康奈尔·韦斯特这样的人，我不一定会说他们是激进的。
But they keep having to deal with the failure of any sincere efforts by the people in power in this country to do something meaningful about these problems that we’ve been talking about.
但他们一直不得不面对这个国家的当权者未能为我们一直在谈论的这些问题做一些有意义的事情的真诚努力。
The people who can do something about it just want to serve their communities and let everyone else suffer.
能对此有所作为的人只是想为他们的社区服务，而让其他人受苦。
I think people like Cornel, their frustration and anger at that type of hypocrisy and betrayal is really what motivates them.
我认为像康奈尔这样的人，他们对这种虚伪和背叛的沮丧和愤怒才是他们的真正动力。
In terms of the athletes, again not being Republicans in the sense of today’s Republican Party but a kind of conservatism.
就运动员而言，他们也不是今天共和党意义上的共和党人，而是一种保守主义。
Do you think that’s there in a lot of them?
你认为他们中的很多人都有这样的情况吗？
Certainly.
当然。
I think there’s a very conservative strain in, let’s say, the black community.
我认为黑人社区中存在着非常保守的压力。
But they absolutely advocate for change because things have to change in order to make success more accessible.
但他们绝对主张改变，因为事情必须改变才能更容易获得成功。
On jazz and dancing with Thelonious Monk
与塞隆尼斯·蒙克 (Thelonious Monk) 探讨爵士乐和舞蹈
These talks are wide ranging so some questions about jazz.
这些谈话内容很广泛，所以有一些关于爵士乐的问题。
What’s your favorite Thelonious Monk story?
您最喜欢塞隆尼斯·蒙克的哪个故事？
My favorite Thelonious Monk story occurred when I went to hear Thelonious several nights at the Village Vanguard.
我最喜欢的塞隆尼斯·蒙克的故事发生在我去Village Vanguard 听塞隆尼斯的几个晚上时。
I mean like 20 or 30 nights.
我的意思是大约20或30个晚上。
I can explain that.
我可以解释一下。
It doesn’t need explanation.
这不需要解释。
It’s the opposite which requires explanation.
这是相反的，需要解释。
It was an incredible cultural experience.
这是一次令人难以置信的文化体验。
But a good friend of mine was the babysitter for Thelonious’s drummer.
但我的一个好朋友是塞隆尼斯鼓手的保姆。
So one night he had a hot date.
有一天晚上，他进行了一次热烈的约会。
He said, “Kareem, you’ve got to stand in for me and babysit Cory.” Cory Riley, who is — Ben Riley’s the drummer.
他说：“卡里姆，你必须代替我照顾科里。”科里·莱利 (Cory Riley)，本·莱利 (Ben Riley) 是鼓手。
I said, “OK, I’ll do that.” I went and did it.
我说：“好吧，我会这么做的。”我去了并做到了。
Ben’s wife came home.
本的妻子回家了。
She didn’t know me.
她不认识我。
She was like — .
她就像是 —— 。
But she knew who I was.
但她知道我是谁。
Because I would do that for Ben’s family, they said, “Once Inez gets home, you can come on down to the Vanguard and catch the act.”
因为我会为本的家人这样做，所以他们说，“伊内兹回家后，你就可以到先锋广场来观看表演。”
Starting from when I was in high school through college, I went to the Village Vanguard anytime Thelonious was there and I was in town, I tried to go.
从我高中到大学，只要塞洛尼斯在，而且我在城里，我就会去Village Vanguard，我尝试着去。
It was a great part of my life.
这是我生命中很重要的一部分。
Starting from when I was in high school through college, I went to the Village Vanguard anytime Thelonious was there and I was in town, I tried to go.
从我高中到大学，只要塞洛尼斯在，而且我在城里，我就会去Village Vanguard，我尝试着去。
It was a great part of my life.
这是我生命中很重要的一部分。
The funny story was Thelonious would get up and dance sometimes in the club.
有趣的是，塞洛尼斯有时会在俱乐部里站起来跳舞。
The New York cabaret laws are really weird.
纽约歌舞表演法律真的很奇怪。
You can’t dance in the club but you can stand and rock around with the music or something.
你不能在俱乐部里跳舞，但你可以站着随着音乐或其他东西摇摆。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Thelonious would get up and dance.
塞隆尼斯会起身跳舞。
Then me and my friend who babysat for Ben, we would get up and dance with them.
然后我和我的照顾本的朋友，我们会站起来和他们一起跳舞。
Max Gordon was the owner of the Vanguard.
马克斯·戈登是先锋队的老板。
He said, “Look, you can’t dance with Mr. Monk.
他说：“听着，你不能和蒙克先生跳舞。
I’m going to have problems with the cabaret commission.” Because if you are dancing in this, it’s no longer a jazz club, it’s a dance hall, and he would have all kinds of difficult problems and get summoned by the City of New York.
我会遇到歌舞表演委员会的问题。”因为如果你在里面跳舞，那不再是一个爵士俱乐部，而是一个舞厅，他会遇到各种各样的难题，并被纽约市召见。
We’re trying to dance, and Mr. Gordon is pulling at us all night, “You got to sit down.” And then Thelonious looked at us like we can’t muscle in on his act, and he continued dancing, and then he sat down.
我们正想跳舞，戈登先生整个晚上都在拉着我们，“你必须坐下来。”然后塞洛尼斯看着我们，好像我们无法参与他的表演，他继续跳舞，然后坐下来。
That was a pretty funny night seeing this little — Mr. Gordon was only about 5’2” or 5’3” yanking on me and trying to say, “Sit down and let everybody see the stage.”
那是一个非常有趣的夜晚，看到这个小家伙——戈登先生只有大约 5 英尺 2 英寸或 5 英尺 3 英寸，他拉着我，试图说：“坐下来，让大家看看舞台。”
My other favorite jazz player, Sun Ra, what did you think of him?
我最喜欢的另一位爵士乐手 Sun Ra，你觉得他怎么样？
Oh, I thought Sun Ra was pretty incredible.
哦，我觉得 Sun Ra 非常不可思议。
While I was in college, he would play at another club in New York called Slugs’ Saloon.
当我上大学时，他会在纽约的另一家名为 Slugs’ Saloon 的俱乐部踢球。
He would play on Monday nights.
他会在周一晚上比赛。
It was just him on Monday night, and you never knew what group he would show up with.
周一晚上只有他一个人，你永远不知道他会和哪一组人一起出现。
He’d bring in different sidemen each time.
他每次都会带来不同的助手。
He was fascinating because he would play straight-ahead jazz and then go off into some very esoteric, ultramodern, bizarre kind of stuff.
他很迷人，因为他会演奏直接的爵士乐，然后开始演奏一些非常深奥、超现代、奇异的东西。
Think about the difference between cubism and Renoir, and that’s kind of the difference in some of the things that he put out there, but he was a brilliant pianist and a great performer.
想想立体主义和雷诺阿之间的区别，这就是他在那里提出的一些东西的区别，但他是一位出色的钢琴家和一位伟大的表演者。
Let’s talk about Miles Davis just a bit.
我们来简单谈谈迈尔斯·戴维斯。
I find people play the album Kind of Blue too much.
我发现人们过多地播放专辑《Kind of Blue》。
It’s a very good album, but it’s become like the Mona Lisa of jazz.
这是一张非常好的专辑，但它已经变得像爵士乐界的蒙娜丽莎。
You’ve heard, seen it so many times, it’s not that fresh anymore.
你听过、见过很多次，已经不那么新鲜了。
What in your opinion is the most underappreciated or underrated Miles Davis album and why?
您认为迈尔斯·戴维斯最被低估或低估的专辑是哪张？为什么？
For me, the most under-appreciated one is Seven Steps to Heaven.
对我来说，最被低估的一部是《七步天堂》。
And that shows, I think, Miles’ best group.
我认为这表明了迈尔斯最好的团队。
There’s a big argument, what was Miles’ best group, the one that had Cannonball Adderley, Coltrane, Bill Evans, and Philly Joe Jones and Red Garland or Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Tony Williams, and Wayne Shorter?
有一个很大的争论，迈尔斯最好的一组是哪个组，是由炮弹阿德利、科尔特兰、比尔·埃文斯、费城·乔·琼斯和红·加兰组成的组，还是由赫比·汉考克、罗恩·卡特、托尼·威廉姆斯和韦恩·肖特组成的组？
People from both of those groups play on that one album, and all of the cuts are awesome, so I would say that that’s probably the best one that does not get very much attention.
这两个乐队的人都在这张专辑中演奏，所有的剪辑都很棒，所以我想说这可能是最好的一张，但没有引起太多关注。
I like Fillmore East a lot, a kind of souped up Bitches Brew.
我非常喜欢菲尔莫尔东啤酒（Fillmore East），一种加强版的母狗啤酒（Bitches Brew）。
Sketches of Spain, the whole Jack Johnson, that ambient period.
西班牙的草图，整个杰克·约翰逊，那个环境时期。
There’s just a lot in the career of Miles Davis.
迈尔斯·戴维斯的职业生涯有很多事情。
Oh, yeah, and for me number two is Porgy and Bess.
哦，是的，对我来说第二名是波吉和贝丝。
Sure, beautiful.
当然，美丽。
That is incredible, and I think just the whole collaboration of the Gershwins and other people of their ilk, with the Harlem Renaissance.
这是令人难以置信的，我认为这就是格什温家族和其他同类人与哈莱姆文艺复兴的整个合作。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
If you read the stories of the Gershwins and their good friend Fats Waller, lots of laughs, and Fats had to go to jail a couple of times for some of the things the that he did.
如果你读过格什温一家和他们的好朋友胖子沃勒的故事，你会发现很多笑声，胖子因为他所做的一些事情而不得不入狱几次。
For example, he would sell — Fats Waller was a great pianist and songwriter.
例如，他会出售——胖子沃勒是一位伟大的钢琴家和歌曲作家。
If he would get a good song, he would sell it to one publishing company, and then later on that afternoon, he’d sell it to another publishing company, and then two days after that go find some other publishing companies to sell it to.
如果他能得到一首好歌，他会把它卖给一家出版公司，然后下午晚些时候，他会把它卖给另一家出版公司，然后两天后再去找其他一些出版公司卖给。
He ended up in the hoosegow for that, but Fats had a very interesting life.
他最终因此被关进了胡斯高，但胖子的生活非常有趣。
Today, are jazz and rap merging into something useful, or is jazz just dead?
如今，爵士乐和说唱乐正在融合成有用的东西，还是爵士乐已经消亡了？
Where is this all headed?
这一切将走向何方？
I know for a fact that jazz isn’t dead because it has taken on around the world — so many people around the world want to play jazz.
我知道爵士乐并没有消亡，因为它已经风靡世界各地 ——世界各地有很多人想演奏爵士乐。
You see jazz musicians now coming from all kinds of places that you would not think of like Azerbaijan and Indonesia and people that can sit down and play all of Duke Ellington’s repertoire.
你现在会看到来自阿塞拜疆和印度尼西亚等各种你想不到的地方的爵士音乐家，以及可以坐下来演奏艾灵顿公爵的所有曲目的人。
There was an alto saxophonist from Azerbaijan that had all of Charlie Parker’s licks down — all of them.
有一位来自阿塞拜疆的中音萨克斯管吹奏者，他把查理·帕克的所有乐段都唱了下来——全部。
That’s all he had done.
这就是他所做的一切。
It’s incredible.
太不可思议了。
I know for a fact that jazz isn’t dead because it has taken on around the world — so many people around the world want to play jazz.
我知道爵士乐并没有消亡，因为它已经风靡世界各地 ——世界各地有很多人想演奏爵士乐。
You see jazz musicians now coming from all kinds of places that you would not think of like Azerbaijan and Indonesia and people that can sit down and play all of Duke Ellington’s repertoire.
你现在会看到来自阿塞拜疆和印度尼西亚等各种你想不到的地方的爵士音乐家，以及可以坐下来演奏艾灵顿公爵的所有曲目的人。
There was an alto saxophonist from Azerbaijan that had all of Charlie Parker’s licks down — all of them.
有一位来自阿塞拜疆的中音萨克斯管吹奏者，他把查理·帕克的所有乐段都唱了下来——全部。
That’s all he had done.
这就是他所做的一切。
It’s incredible.
太不可思议了。
I think the fact that jazz has affected music around the world and there are still people who enjoy classical jazz will make it survive.
我认为爵士乐影响了世界各地的音乐，并且仍然有人喜欢古典爵士乐，这一事实将使爵士乐得以生存。
The whole idea of prophets being strangers in their own country, I think, is more or less what has happened to jazz, but I don’t think it’s dead.
我认为，先知在自己的国家是陌生人的整个想法或多或少都发生在爵士乐中，但我不认为它已经消亡。
I wouldn’t use that term.
我不会使用这个词。
On Harlem and Los Angeles
关于哈林区和洛杉矶
You mentioned the Harlem Renaissance a moment ago.
你刚才提到了哈莱姆文艺复兴。
Of course, you’re from Harlem, and your father’s side originally from Trinidad.
当然，你来自哈林区，而你父亲则来自特立尼达。
But if we think to the Harlem Renaissance, a lot of people know Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston but the lesser-known figures — you’ve written a great book on the Harlem Renaissance — as the years pass, of the lesser-known figures, who sticks with you as most underappreciated or passing a test of time or one that deserves and extra plug from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar today?
但如果我们想到哈莱姆文艺复兴，很多人都知道兰斯顿·休斯、佐拉·尼尔·赫斯顿，但是那些不太知名的人物 ——“你写了一本关于哈莱姆文艺复兴的伟大著作”——随着时间的推移，这些不太知名的人物中，谁会坚持认为你是最不受重视的人，或者是通过了时间考验的人，或者是今天值得卡里姆·阿卜杜勒-贾巴尔额外推荐的人呢？
The one that I enjoy the most was Chester Himes, who wrote these crazy detective novels, but so enjoyable, about people that he felt typified people in Harlem.
我最喜欢的是切斯特·海姆斯（Chester Himes），他写了这些疯狂的侦探小说，但又非常有趣，他觉得这些小说是哈莱姆区的典型人物。
If any of you saw the movie Cotton Comes to Harlem, the original novel was written by Chester Himes.
如果你们有人看过电影《棉花来到哈莱姆》，那么原著小说是切斯特·希姆斯写的。
He wrote these really crazy detective novels that make you laugh and make you wonder about what type of a place Harlem could be, and I’ve enjoyed those probably the most of all the things that I’ve read coming from the Harlem Renaissance.
他写了这些非常疯狂的侦探小说，让你发笑，让你想知道哈莱姆区可能是什么样的地方，而我最喜欢的可能是我读过的来自哈莱姆文艺复兴时期的小说。
Harlem as a place.
哈林区作为一个地方。
It’s very expensive now.
现在很贵。
It has a lot more retail.
它有更多的零售。
It’s changed a great deal, even the last 10 years, as I’ve gone a number of times.
即使在过去的十年里，它也发生了很大的变化，因为我已经去过很多次了。
What do you think is the future of Harlem as a location, and has it remained the cultural beating heart of New York City?
您认为哈莱姆区的未来是什么？它是否仍然是纽约市的文化中心？
What’s it going to look like in 20 years’ time?
20年后会是什么样子？
Harlem is gentrifying now, people who want to have a spacious apartment are combing Harlem right now as I speak, so they can live in Manhattan and still have some space.
哈莱姆区现在正在中产阶级化，在我说话的时候，想要拥有宽敞公寓的人们正在梳理哈莱姆区，这样他们就可以住在曼哈顿并且仍然有一些空间。
I actually tried to move back to Harlem, and I couldn’t do it.
我实际上试图搬回哈莱姆区，但我做不到。
I couldn’t deal with the winter.
我无法应对冬天。
You can tell I’ve become a Californian.
你可以看出我已经成为加州人了。
We all can sympathize with that today.
今天我们都对此表示同情。
I saw all the snow out here, so I know I did the right thing, but the whole ambiance of Harlem will change, just as the population changes.
我看到这里全是雪，所以我知道我做了正确的事，但哈莱姆区的整个氛围将会改变，就像人口的变化一样。
That’s not necessarily a bad thing.
这不一定是坏事。
It’s just that we move on.
只是我们继续前进。
Did Los Angeles, speaking of places, peak in the 1980s?
说到地方，洛杉矶在 20 世纪 80 年代达到顶峰吗？
Then Hollywood was a much bigger deal.
那么好莱坞就更重要了。
Silicon Valley wasn’t so important.
硅谷没那么重要。
There was Michael Milken.
其中有迈克尔·米尔肯。
Actually, this other thing called Showtime, which we know a little about.
事实上，还有一个叫做 Showtime 的东西，我们对此有所了解。
Today, LA seems like it’s still a wonderful place to live, but less exciting, less culturally central.
如今，洛杉矶似乎仍然是一个美好的居住地，但不再那么令人兴奋，文化中心也不再那么重要。
Would you agree with that description, or am I missing something?
您同意这个描述吗，还是我遗漏了什么？
I think you’re missing something.
我认为你错过了一些东西。
I think it’s become more culturally relevant because the movie industry has had more or less a renaissance, and the whole idea of having a place where you can make movies completely is still very appealing.
我认为它变得更具文化相关性，因为电影业或多或少经历了复兴，并且拥有一个可以完全制作电影的地方的整个想法仍然非常有吸引力。
It’s taken its own identity.
它有自己的身份。
It’s not just the place that you go after you leave San Francisco.
这不仅仅是您离开旧金山后要去的地方。
Probably now you go to LA first and then go to San Francisco on your way home, so I think that Los Angeles is still a very vital and vibrant place.
可能现在你回家的路上先去洛杉矶，然后再去旧金山，所以我认为洛杉矶仍然是一个非常有活力和活力的地方。
On Mycroft Holmes
关于麦克罗夫特·福尔摩斯
Let’s take a few minutes and get to your book, Mycroft Holmes, which I enjoyed very much.
让我们花几分钟时间读一下你的书《麦克罗夫特·福尔摩斯》，我非常喜欢这本书。
I would recommend to you all.
我会推荐给大家。
If you’ll oblige me, let me just speak for two or three minutes about how I read the book, and then you respond to that.
如果您愿意的话，请让我用两三分钟讲述一下我是如何阅读这本书的，然后您对此做出回应。
OK.
好的。
If you look at the cover, here’s your name, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and there’s the name of Mycroft Holmes.
如果你看一下封面，这是你的名字，卡里姆·阿卜杜勒-贾巴尔，这是迈克罗夫特·霍姆斯的名字。
I think that’s on purpose.
我认为这是故意的。
In a sense you are Mycroft Holmes.
从某种意义上说，你就是迈克罗夫特·福尔摩斯。
He was Sherlock’s older brother who collected information, knew more than Sherlock, had more information.
他是夏洛克收集信息的哥哥，比夏洛克知道的更多，掌握的信息更多。
He advised the British government.
他为英国政府提供了建议。
In a sense, you’re coming out of not quite a retirement, but you’re Mycroft.
从某种意义上说，你还没有完全退休，但你是迈克罗夫特。
You’ve been collecting information all this while.
你一直在收集信息。
This book is like announcing the real Kareem is now here in the public, and the actual story of this book is you reimagining a world in some ways the way you would like it to be.
这本书就像宣布真正的卡里姆现在已经出现在公众面前，而这本书的实际故事是你以某种方式重新想象一个你想要的世界。
Nick Donner Photography
尼克·唐纳摄影
Mycroft goes off to solve a crime with this fellow Cyrus Douglas who is black and from Trinidad, and they do this as equals.
迈克罗夫特与来自特立尼达的黑人赛勒斯·道格拉斯一起侦破犯罪案件，他们是平等对待的。
So it’s a rewrite of colonial history.
所以这是殖民历史的改写。
Your father’s family came from Trinidad.
你父亲的家族来自特立尼达。
In the story, they go to Trinidad.
在故事中，他们去了特立尼达。
At the end of the story, Cyrus — this is now in Victorian England — is actually allowed to enter the royal enclosure.
在故事的结尾，赛勒斯 ——这是现在维多利亚时代的英格兰—— 实际上被允许进入王室围场。
You look at page 60.
你看第60页。
There’s an apparently obscure reference to James Cowles Prichard.
显然有一个模糊的地方提到了詹姆斯·考尔斯·普里查德。
Who’s ever heard of him?
谁听说过他？
But, of course, in 1813, James Cowles Prichard, if you think about it just a bit, wrote a work which in Victorian England was considered the defining statement of the equality of the races and the unity of mankind.
但是，当然，如果你稍微想一下，詹姆斯·考尔斯·普里查德 (James Cowles Prichard) 在 1813 年写了一部作品，在维多利亚时代的英国，这部作品被认为是种族平等和人类团结的定义性声明。
Not mentioned in your book, but, of course, Mycroft would know such a thing.
你的书中没有提到，但是，Mycroft 当然知道这样的事情。
Finally, on page 10 of your book, we have Mycroft humming the tune of Figaro from Rossini, and anyone who knows even the slightest bit of information from your life knows you’ve been a fan of The Barber of Seville since high school.
最后，在你的书的第 10 页，我们让迈克罗夫特哼起了罗西尼的《费加罗》曲调，任何对你生活有哪怕一丁点了解的人都知道你从高中起就一直是《塞维利亚理发师》的粉丝。
Therefore, I conclude you’re Mycroft.
因此，我断定你就是迈克罗夫特。
This is your fantasy.
这是你的幻想。
This is the real Kareem.
这才是真正的卡里姆。
Mycroft and Cyrus are both you, and this is your coming out party saying “I really am a writer.
麦克罗夫特和赛勒斯都是你，这是你的出柜派对，他们说：“我真的是一名作家。
I’m a novelist.
我是一名小说家。
Here’s the real me.” Yes or no?
这就是真正的我。”是还是不是？
Where do I begin?
我从哪里开始呢？
I think that I tend to be more Cyrus Douglas than Mycroft, and just my vision of their interaction is the fact that there was a lot of value in the colonies that the Victorian British did not appreciate.
我认为我更倾向于赛勒斯·道格拉斯而不是迈克罗夫特，而我对他们互动的看法是，殖民地有很多价值，而维多利亚时代的英国人并不欣赏这一事实。
In forming his friendship with Cyrus Douglas, Mycroft actually gets a glimpse at how the British colonial system has affected people for the good and the bad, and he has the courage to develop a friendship with a black person, which was frowned upon, really, by the British.
在与赛勒斯·道格拉斯建立友谊的过程中，麦克罗夫特实际上看到了英国殖民制度如何影响人们的好与坏，并且他有勇气与黑人建立友谊，这实际上是英国人所不赞成的。
But he can see, obviously, that it has no value, that gold is where you find it and golden people is where you find it.
但他显然可以看到，它没有任何价值，金子就是你找到它的地方，金人就是你找到它的地方。
I think that’s why their friendship is so strong because Mycroft appreciates the fact that Cyrus is a good person with a good moral center, and he accommodates him as a friend because of that.
我认为这就是为什么他们的友谊如此牢固，因为麦克罗夫特欣赏赛勒斯是一个有良好道德中心的好人，因此他把他当作朋友。
Mycroft, being not necessarily well-to-do, but a British citizen with all of the wonderful parts of his life are coming up.
麦克罗夫特不一定很富裕，但他是一名英国公民，他生命中所有美好的部分都即将到来。
He’s just recently graduated from Cambridge, and he has a beautiful fiancée, and he has a great job with the British Foreign Office, which has found him to be a very capable administrator.
他刚从剑桥大学毕业，有一个漂亮的未婚妻，而且在英国外交部有一份很棒的工作，英国外交部发现他是一位非常有能力的行政人员。
It’s all looking up for him, and then things start to happen.
一切都在等待着他，然后事情就开始发生。
I can’t tell you about that.
我不能告诉你这一点。
You have to buy the book.
你必须买这本书。
It’s a very deep book.
这是一本非常有深度的书。
There’s much more in here, I think, than reviewers are picking up on.
我认为，这里的内容比评论家们所了解的要多得多。
Yeah.
是的。
That’s one point I’d like to stress.
这是我想强调的一点。
Cool.
凉爽的。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Now, we have a segment of these chats.
现在，我们有这些聊天的一部分。
It’s called Overrated/Underrated.
这就是所谓的高估/低估。
I go through some names, you tell me if you think that they’re overrated or underrated and if so why.
我浏览了一些名字，你告诉我你是否认为他们被高估或低估了，如果是的话，为什么。
OK.
好的。
First one: John le Carré, overrated or underrated?
第一个：约翰·勒卡雷，被高估还是被低估？
I think John le Carré, all the credit he gets he deserves.
我认为约翰·勒卡雷（John le Carré）所获得的所有荣誉都是他应得的。
He’s an incredible author, and just his understanding of the Cold War enabled him to write these wonderful novels.
他是一位令人难以置信的作家，正是他对冷战的理解使他能够写出这些精彩的小说。
I’ve read most of these in the ’70s and ’80s, starting with — well, when I was in high school, we read The Spy Who Came in from the Cold, and then as an adult, I read everything that he’s written just about.
我在 70 年代和 80 年代读过其中的大部分内容，从 开始——嗯，当我在高中时，我们读了《来自寒冷的间谍》，然后作为一个成年人，我读了他写的所有内容。
Really, he doesn’t get enough credit, I think.
真的，我认为他没有得到足够的信任。
John le Carré actually was an operative for British intelligence.
约翰·勒卡雷实际上是英国情报部门的一名特工。
He worked in Germany, and he was betrayed by Kim Philby, who was the mole in — if you read Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, you know that there was a mole in the British foreign service.
他在德国工作，被金·菲尔比出卖了，金·菲尔比就是《锅匠裁缝士兵间谍》里的内奸——如果你读过《锅匠裁缝士兵间谍》，你就知道英国外交部里有内奸。
That actually happened, and John le Carré, his group was compromised by that, and they had to disappear out of Berlin and get back to England.
这确实发生了，约翰·勒卡雷（John le Carré）和他的团队因此受到了损害，他们不得不从柏林消失并返回英国。
Philby did a lot of damage to their network of espionage and intelligence people.
菲尔比对他们的间谍和情报人员网络造成了很大的损害。
Michael Jackson, not the man, but the music.
迈克尔·杰克逊，不是他的人，而是他的音乐。
Oh, I think Michael Jackson certainly deserves all the credit he got.
哦，我认为迈克尔·杰克逊当然配得上他所获得的所有荣誉。
He was an incredible performer.
他是一位令人难以置信的表演者。
I knew Michael, not very well, but I knew Michael.
我了解迈克尔，不是很了解，但我了解迈克尔。
On Sundays, a good friend of mine would take them to do normal things.
周日，我的一个好朋友会带他们做一些正常的事情。
Their dad was this typical stage dad from hell who just wanted them to work and make all this money, but my friend just was very intense that they get to do some normal things.
他们的父亲是典型的来自地狱的舞台父亲，他只想让他们工作并赚到所有这些钱，但我的朋友非常强烈地希望他们能够做一些正常的事情。
On Sundays — this was while I was going to UCLA — he would take them to a gym, and we’d play basketball, and then he’d treat me to brunch.
周日————当时我要去加州大学洛杉矶分校————他会带他们去健身房，我们一起打篮球，然后他会请我吃早午餐。
So it was a good deal for me, and I got to know the Jacksons.
所以这对我来说是一笔划算的交易，我也认识了杰克逊一家。
Great kids.
很棒的孩子们。
It’s really tragic about Michael, but he certainly deserved all the credit he got.
迈克尔的遭遇确实很悲惨，但他所获得的所有荣誉都是他应得的。
We know how close you were with Bruce Lee, but what about Jackie Chan?
我们知道你和李小龙的关系有多亲密，但是成龙呢？
Jackie Chan has done a great job.
成龙做得很好。
I think he’s an incredible actor.
我认为他是一位不可思议的演员。
I think he has really continued the tradition of Bruce Lee in another way in that he has continued to make the martial arts popular and have kids realize that they too can be close to superheroes.
我认为他确实以另一种方式延续了李小龙的传统，他继续让武术流行起来，让孩子们意识到他们也可以接近超级英雄。
Here’s a guy, I think he was from Harlem way back when.
这是一个人，我想他很久以前就来自哈莱姆区。
He’s called Earl “The Goat” Manigault, and he never really made it to the NBA, but many people claim that if he had, he would’ve just been a brilliant, fantastic player.
他被称为厄尔·“山羊”·马尼戈特，他从未真正进入过 NBA，但很多人声称，如果他进入了 NBA，他就会成为一名才华横溢、出色的球员。
You played pick-up games with him when you were a teenager, right?
你十几岁的时候就和他玩过接球游戏，对吧？
Right.
正确的。
Overrated or underrated?
被高估还是被低估？
How good could he have been?
他能有多好？
Earl was overrated.
厄尔被高估了。
Overrated.
被高估了。
I’m not saying that because of envy.
我这么说并不是因为嫉妒。
Earl couldn’t shoot the ball from beyond eight feet.
厄尔无法在八英尺之外投篮。
He could leap out of the gym, but he couldn’t shoot the ball beyond eight feet, and he wasn’t interested in passing it.
他可以跳出体育馆，但他无法将球射出八英尺之外，而且他对传球也不感兴趣。
He wouldn’t make it very far on any team if you don’t want to pass the ball.
如果你不想传球，他在任何球队都不会走得太远。
Earl couldn’t shoot the ball from beyond eight feet.
厄尔无法在八英尺之外投篮。
He could leap out of the gym, but he couldn’t shoot the ball beyond eight feet, and he wasn’t interested in passing it.
他可以跳出体育馆，但他无法将球射出八英尺之外，而且他对传球也不感兴趣。
He wouldn’t make it very far on any team if you don’t want to pass the ball.
如果你不想传球，他在任何球队都不会走得太远。
I don’t think Earl would’ve made it very far because he had to have the ball by himself.
我认为厄尔不会走得太远，因为他必须自己拿球。
He was a one-on-one player.
他是一名一对一的球员。
He didn’t understand the team game.
他不明白团队游戏。
That’s why I’m critical of Earl, but nice guy.
这就是为什么我批评厄尔，但他是个好人。
He messed up his life with drugs, but tried to make up for it in the latter part of his life by being involved with the community projects that told kids to stay off of drugs.
他因毒品搞乱了自己的生活，但在后半生试图通过参与告诉孩子们远离毒品的社区项目来弥补这一点。
I have a great deal of respect for the way he went out.
我非常尊重他外出的方式。
He went out trying to do the right thing.
他出去尝试做正确的事。
Your most underrated game.
你最被低估的游戏。
I have a nomination.
我有一个提名。
Going back to 1989, I still remember this game.
回到1989年，我仍然记得这款游戏。
The Lakers were playing against the Detroit Pistons.
湖人队正在对阵底特律活塞队。
Unfortunately, that was the year of the Pistons.
不幸的是，那是活塞队的一年。
It was your very last year in the NBA, but in game three, although you were down 2–0 coming back to the home court, you put up a spectacular performance with 28 points, 13 rebounds, played your heart out.
这是你在NBA的最后一年，但在第三场比赛中，虽然你回到主场以0比2落后，但你打出了28分、13个篮板的精彩表现，打出了你的全力。
In my view, there’s something especially noble to a performance which in a way was maybe in a hopeless setting, but I’ve always admired that game of yours more than a lot of the victories.
在我看来，在某种程度上可能是在绝望的情况下的表现有一些特别高尚的东西，但我一直更欣赏你的那场比赛，而不是很多胜利。
What’s your response, and how well do you remember that game?
你的反应是什么？你对那场比赛的记得如何？
I thank you for remembering that game.
我感谢你还记得那场比赛。
The problem that we had with the Pistons was when the series started, Magic Johnson got hurt and Byron Scott got hurt, and we had to play that series without our starting backcourt, so we got swept.
我们与活塞队的问题是，当系列赛开始时，“魔术师”约翰逊受伤了，拜伦·斯科特也受伤了，我们不得不在没有首发后场的情况下打那个系列赛，所以我们被横扫了。
Nothing you can do about that, but I didn’t want people to see me going out on a bum note, so I gave it my best effort.
你对此无能为力，但我不想让人们看到我在流浪的样子，所以我尽了最大的努力。
On the skyhook’s obsolescence
关于天钩的过时
A few basketball questions.
几个篮球问题。
I know you’ve been asked this before, but I’d like to press on the details a bit.
我知道您以前曾被问过这个问题，但我想进一步介绍一下细节。
Your skyhook was unstoppable, pretty much.
你的天钩几乎是不可阻挡的。
You’re the leading scorer in NBA history.
你是 NBA 历史上的得分王。
You won a finals MVP award 14 years apart.
你们相隔 14 年荣获总决赛 MVP。
That’s maybe your greatest record, actually.
实际上，这可能是你最伟大的记录。
No one could stop it.
没有人能够阻止它。
My guess is no one today could stop it.
我猜今天没人能阻止它。
Very few players, if any, have really had a significant skyhook, and why don’t they learn it?
很少有玩家（如果有的话）真正拥有过重要的天钩，为什么他们不学习呢？
The reason that young kids today don’t learn how to shoot hook shots is because everybody is so enamored with the three-point shot.
今天的小孩子不学习如何投篮的原因是因为每个人都如此迷恋三分球。
So the kids, they don’t want two points.
所以孩子们，他们不想要两分。
They don’t want to work with their back to the basket.
他们不想背对着篮筐工作。
That’s not cool.
这不太酷。
They want to go out there in the stratosphere and shoot three-pointers.
他们想要在平流层上场并投三分球。
I didn’t think that that worked.
我认为这不起作用。
For the longest time, that did not work as solid basketball strategy.
在很长一段时间里，这并不是一个可靠的篮球策略。
But now when we have a time — when you have people like Stephen Curry, who can shoot the ball, he can — I’ve never seen anybody shoot like that.
但现在，当我们拥有像斯蒂芬·库里这样的人时，他可以投篮，我从来没有见过有人这样投篮。
I’ll give you an explanation.
我给你一个解释。
They showed Stephan shooting 100 three-point shots in practice.
他们展示了斯蒂芬在训练中投出了 100 个三分球。
He made 92 out of 100 from the three-point arc, including 77 in a row.
他在三分线外100投92中，其中连续77投。
This is just practicing.
这只是练习而已。
Anybody that can shoot like that is on a different plane from all the guys that I played against, and the people that I saw when I first started watching the game in 1960.
任何能够像这样投篮的人都与我交手过的所有球员以及我 1960 年第一次开始观看比赛时看到的人处于不同的层面。
I never seen anybody shoot the ball like that.
我从来没有见过有人这样投篮。
If that is the coming talent level of NBA players, they’re going to be forgetting a lot about the guys that played in my era and the earlier eras of the NBA because the talent level of the guys playing now has really risen.
如果这就是NBA球员即将到来的天赋水平，他们将会忘记很多在我那个时代和NBA早期时代打球的球员，因为现在打球的球员的天赋水平确实已经提高了。
But they’re not teaching the kids how to score in the paint with their back to the basket, and, therefore, a lot of them don’t get to learn the hook shot, and they don’t get to realize that if you get close to the basket, a lot more of your shots will go in.
但他们并没有教孩子们如何背对篮筐在内线得分，因此，他们中的很多人都没有学会勾手投篮，也没有意识到如果你靠近篮筐，更多的投篮就会命中。
They don’t seem to understand that.
他们似乎不明白这一点。
That was the first thing that I learned, and so I worked on that hook shot and learned how to get positioned close to the basket where I can get my hook shot off.
这是我学到的第一件事，所以我练习了勾手投篮，并学习了如何站在靠近篮筐的位置，这样我就可以完成勾手投篮。
But they’re not teaching the kids how to score in the paint with their back to the basket, and, therefore, a lot of them don’t get to learn the hook shot, and they don’t get to realize that if you get close to the basket, a lot more of your shots will go in.
但他们并没有教孩子们如何背对篮筐在内线得分，因此，他们中的很多人都没有学会勾手投篮，也没有意识到如果你靠近篮筐，更多的投篮就会命中。
They don’t seem to understand that.
他们似乎不明白这一点。
Let me push on this a bit.
让我进一步讨论一下。
I recall reading in one of your memoirs that you took dance lessons early on, and when I watched you play — I was a kid, you were younger — I was always most impressed by your footwork.
我记得在你的一本回忆录中读到，你很早就上过舞蹈课，当我看你踢球时 ——“我还是个孩子，你更年轻”—— 我总是对你的步法印象最深刻。
It seemed to me you had the very best footwork.
在我看来，你的步法是最好的。
I read in one of your books that you practiced this footwork like crazy, for hours and hours and hours in seventh and eighth grade.
我在你的一本书中读到，你在七年级和八年级时疯狂地练习这种步法，练习了好几个小时。
A lot of big guys aren’t going to shoot three-pointers no matter what — could the real answer be that your footwork was so good and you learned it so early, it’s just hard to do?
很多大个子无论如何都不会投三分 ——真正的答案是不是你的脚步技术那么好，而且这么早就学会了，只是很难做到？
People are doing slam dunks and other things, and you had this graceful footwork, and you combined that in this coordinated fashion with the reach, the angle, everything, and it’s just so hard to put that whole package together?
人们正在做灌篮和其他事情，而你有这种优雅的步法，你以这种协调的方式将其与触及范围、角度、一切结合起来，将整个包放在一起真的很难吗？
It’s not hard to put the package together, but you have to want to put it together.
把包放在一起并不难，但你必须想要把它放在一起。
These guys that are playing today, they don’t want to.
今天参加比赛的这些人，他们不想参加。
It takes too much time.
这需要太多时间。
They get pushed.
他们被推了。
They don’t like that.
他们不喜欢那样。
They want to be out there in the stratosphere shooting three-pointers, and it’s wonderful.
他们想要在平流层投三分球，这太棒了。
A lot of the games now deteriorate into a three-point shooting contest, and it’s really made a lot of people start to criticize the game because — just the other night, Kobe shot like 4 for 18 from three-point range.
现在很多比赛都退化成了三分球大赛，这确实让很多人开始批评比赛，因为……就在那天晚上，科比三分球18投4中。
That was one of his better nights for this year, right?
那是他今年最好的夜晚之一，对吧？
Right, and the fans aren’t going to continue to enjoy that, but when you got someone like Stephen Curry who can shoot close to 50 percent from three-point range, that ends up being an advantage for his team.
是的，球迷不会继续享受这一点，但当你拥有像斯蒂芬·库里这样的三分球命中率接近 50% 的人时，这最终会成为他的球队的优势。
Do you blame the economic incentives behind the culture of celebrity or is it more of a moral failing or is it mix of the two?
您是否将此归咎于名人文化背后的经济动机，或者更多的是道德上的失败，还是两者兼而有之？
I think it has to do with just lotto fever.
我认为这与乐透热有关。
People want as much as they can get for as little effort.
人们希望以最少的努力获得尽可能多的东西。
A three-point shot is worth 50 percent more than a shot from inside the three-point arc.
三分球比三分线内投篮价值高 50%。
There can be a strategy that says if you got people that can make those shots, it’s going to work to your advantage.
可以有一个策略说，如果你有能够投篮的人，这将对你有利。
Nick Donner Photography
尼克·唐纳摄影
You gave some instruction to Joakim Noah over the last year.
去年你给了乔金·诺阿一些指导。
He’s injured right now, I believe.
我相信他现在受伤了。
Did you try to suggest he learn a skyhook?
你有没有尝试建议他学习天钩？
I tried to show Joakim the skyhook, he wasn’t interested.
我试图向乔金姆展示天钩，他不感兴趣。
I did show him some things that he could do defensively and how to help his team, and the next season after I’d worked with him he won Defensive Player of the Year.
我确实向他展示了一些他在防守方面可以做的事情以及如何帮助他的球队，在我和他一起工作的下一个赛季，他赢得了年度最佳防守球员。
I know I had some impact, and he thanked me, and I thank him for giving me the opportunity.
我知道我产生了一些影响，他感谢我，我也感谢他给我机会。
It’s worked out pretty well.
效果很好。
It was going well with Andrew Bynum, but Andrew finally got to sign his contract for $50 million, and then at that point Andrew thought that I didn’t know anything and that he didn’t have to listen to me, and we don’t know where Andrew is right now.
安德鲁·拜纳姆的事情进展顺利，但安德鲁最终签下了5000万美元的合同，然后安德鲁就认为我什么都不知道，他不必听我的，我们也不知道安德鲁现在在哪里。
Economic incentive.
经济激励。
He’s only 27 years old this year, and he’s not playing in the NBA.
他今年只有27岁，而且还没有在NBA打球。
He hasn’t played in a couple of years, and he’s not going to make it because he wasn’t able to follow through on really learning all the fundamentals.
他已经有几年没有打球了，而且他不会成功，因为他无法真正学习所有的基础知识。
I would make him do the fundamentals every day before practice, and he just thought it was boring, but now that he’s not getting paid like he was, I think he might have a different opinion about that, but it’s too late now.
我会让他每天在练习前做基础知识，他只是觉得这很无聊，但现在他没有像以前那样得到报酬，我想他可能对此有不同的看法，但现在已经太晚了。
You’ve said in your other interviews that actually you applied the methods of Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes to basketball — studying your opponents, seeing things which they didn’t, understanding their weak points, understanding how you could take advantage of them.
你在其他采访中说过，实际上你将福尔摩斯和麦克罗夫特·福尔摩斯的方法应用到了篮球上——研究你的对手，看到他们没有看到的东西，了解他们的弱点，了解如何利用他们。
This Sherlock Holmes metaphor, you’ve carried that with you really since high school or maybe longer.
这个夏洛克·福尔摩斯的比喻，你从高中或更长时间起就一直带着这个比喻。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
I read all of the Sherlock Holmes stories when I was a rookie.
当我还是个菜鸟时，我读了所有福尔摩斯的故事。
Rookie in the NBA?
NBA新秀？
Rookie in the NBA.
NBA新秀。
So, jeez, I realized that my power of observation could maybe enable me to get some knowledge that other people might miss out on, and I paid attention.
所以，天哪，我意识到我的观察力也许能让我获得一些其他人可能会错过的知识，并且我注意到了。
…Bob and the coach were nicotine fiends, and they’d go in the shower and smoke cigarettes at halftime.
……鲍勃和教练都是尼古丁迷，他们会在中场休息时去洗澡、抽烟。
I heard that, and I said, jeez, if he’s doing that — I realized that if I could get Bob to run a lot in the second half, he’d be in pain.
我听到了，我说，天啊，如果他这么做了 —— 我意识到，如果我能让鲍勃在下半场跑得更多，他会很痛苦。
And so I did.
我也这么做了。
The classic tale I tell about my powers of observation had to do — we had to play Detroit.
我讲述的关于我的观察力的经典故事必须做到——我们必须玩底特律。
They had Bob Lanier, a very fine center.
他们有鲍勃·拉尼尔，一个非常优秀的中锋。
And the ball boys, I overheard them talking about — they didn’t like going in the locker room after halftime because Bob and the coach were nicotine fiends, and they’d go in the shower and smoke cigarettes at halftime.
还有球童，我无意中听到他们谈论——他们不喜欢在中场休息后进入更衣室，因为鲍勃和教练都是尼古丁迷，他们会在中场休息时去洗澡抽烟。
I heard that, and I said, jeez, if he’s doing that — I realized that if I could get Bob to run a lot in the second half, he’d be in pain.
我听到了，我说，天啊，如果他这么做了 —— 我意识到，如果我能让鲍勃在下半场跑得更多，他会很痛苦。
And so I did.
我也这么做了。
But just getting those little tidbits of information, they can open up doors for you that you might not appreciate.
但仅仅获得这些小信息，它们就可以为你打开一扇你可能不欣赏的大门。
On the culture of Islam
论伊斯兰教文化
Let me try a few questions about religion, and Islam in particular.
让我尝试回答几个有关宗教，特别是伊斯兰教的问题。
If I think of Islam, this is what I see.
如果我想到伊斯兰教，这就是我所看到的。
I see a world where probably more people are deeply attached to Islam than to any other religion, so it has a great attraction.
在我看来，在这个世界上，信仰伊斯兰教的人可能比信仰任何其他宗教的人都多，因此它具有巨大的吸引力。
It seems to me economically it’s helped a great number of them.
在我看来，这在经济上帮助了很多人。
In this country, if you look at statistics, Arab-Americans earn more than the national average.
在这个国家，如果你看一下统计数据，就会发现阿拉伯裔美国人的收入高于全国平均水平。
Admittedly, they’re not all Muslims, but still.
诚然，他们并不都是穆斯林，但仍然如此。
Theologically, a lot of it makes a great deal of sense to me — more than Christianity.
从神学角度来说，其中很多内容对我来说都意义重大——比基督教更有意义。
There’s intensity of yearning in the aesthetic and the notion of the great distance between God and man makes sense to me.
对审美有强烈的向往，神与人之间的遥远距离对我来说是有道理的。
It’s in some ways pretty individualistic.
从某些方面来说，这是非常个人主义的。
It’s highly cosmopolitan, and it doesn’t, in most cases, rely too much on a centralized clergy.
它是高度国际化的，在大多数情况下，它并不太依赖集中的神职人员。
That said, it’s striking how few Americans have converted to Islam, and you have.
尽管如此，令人惊讶的是，皈依伊斯兰教的美国人却寥寥无几，而你却皈依了伊斯兰教。
Given these favorable features of Islam, what do you think first is the cultural disconnect between the United States and Islam — and this is even pre-9/11, right, that won’t really explain it — and how have you personally managed to bridge that?
鉴于伊斯兰教的这些有利特征，您首先想到的是美国和伊斯兰教之间的文化脱节 ——这甚至是在 9/11 之前，对，这并不能真正解释它 ——您个人是如何设法弥合这一点的？
I know that’s sort of a mouthful, but do you see what I’m getting at?
我知道这有点拗口，但是你明白我的意思吗？
I do see what you’re getting at.
我确实明白你的意思。
What I see is the fact that in Western Europe they had the Enlightenment where people realized that the Inquisition was not the way to go.
我看到的事实是，在西欧，他们经历了启蒙运动，人们意识到宗教裁判所不是正确的出路。
Burning people at the stake and torturing them and taking their property because they did not share the same religious beliefs as you did was unjust and not what Jesus of Nazareth taught his followers.
因为他们与你的宗教信仰不同而将他们烧死、折磨他们并夺走他们的财产，这是不公正的，也不是拿撒勒人耶稣教导他的追随者的。
The Muslim world has not had any opportunity to have an enlightenment.
穆斯林世界没有任何机会获得启蒙。
They went from the time of the Prophet, which was seen as the ideal time, to despots.
他们从被视为理想时代的先知时代，走向了暴君时代。
Kings and military rulers are the norm in the countries that are majority Muslim.
在穆斯林占多数的国家，国王和军事统治者是常态。
Fair governance, not being able to arrest somebody without charges, that’s a given in the Western world.
公平治理，不能在没有指控的情况下逮捕某人，这是西方世界的理所当然。
In the Islamic world, that wasn’t the case.
在伊斯兰世界，情况并非如此。
If Nasser didn’t like you, you were going to jail despite the fact that you hadn’t broken any laws or committed any crimes.
如果纳赛尔不喜欢你，你就会被关进监狱，尽管你没有违反任何法律或犯下任何罪行。
And that goes again and again for most of the states that are majority Muslim.
对于大多数穆斯林占多数的国家来说，这种情况一再发生。
They really haven’t had the opportunity to have an enlightenment.
他们确实还没有机会开悟。
At a certain point, the people in Europe decided they weren’t going to burn people who they considered to be heretics.
在某个时刻，欧洲人民决定不会烧死他们认为是异端的人。
They would have a just way to deal with it.
他们会有一个公正的方式来处理它。
In America, we figured it out by separating church and state — the ideal situation — to have people, to let them have their own moral center and let them believe whatever they wanted to believe about their moral and spiritual center.
在美国，我们通过分离教会和国家来解决这个问题——“理想的情况”——拥有人民，让他们有自己的道德中心，让他们相信任何他们想相信的关于他们的道德和精神中心的东西。
We have a set of laws that everybody has to respect and obey that enable everyone to have equal opportunity.
我们有一套每个人都必须尊重和遵守的法律，使每个人都能享有平等的机会。
That should be it.
应该是这样。
So your vision of Islam has separation of church and state as an ideal?
那么您对伊斯兰教的看法是以政教分离为理想的吗？
It would.
会的。
If we ask the kind of political economy question — this is my worry, and I hope I’m not — now, there’s so many incorrect or just lies said in the media.
如果我们问那种政治经济学问题——“这是我的担忧，我希望我不是——”现在，媒体上有很多不正确的或只是谎言。
If I look at even the Muslim democracies around the world — take Malaysia, Bangladesh, Indonesia, which are not hotbeds of terror — they’re what you’d call normal countries.
如果我看看世界各地的穆斯林民主国家——“以马来西亚、孟加拉国、印度尼西亚为例，它们不是恐怖的温床”——它们就是你所说的正常国家。
But there seems to be some problem they’ve had separating state and religion.
但他们将国家和宗教分开似乎存在一些问题。
Do you think there’s a tension between the doctrines of Islam themselves and the desire to separate state and religion?
您认为伊斯兰教义本身与政教分离的愿望之间存在紧张关系吗？
Oh, no. I think that has to do with the distribution of wealth.
哦，不。我认为这与财富的分配有关。
Yes.
是的。
All those countries that you mentioned have a lot of mineral wealth, oil mainly, but some other mineral wealth, and the people who are in charge of the state want to keep a hold of the wealth.
你提到的所有这些国家都拥有大量矿产财富，主要是石油，但也有一些其他矿产财富，而国家的掌权者都想保留这些财富。
They don’t necessarily care about the morality or the laws.
他们不一定关心道德或法律。
They just want to keep control of the wealth.
他们只是想保持对财富的控制。
The man who ruled Indonesia for so long, Suharto, he had billions in the bank.
统治印度尼西亚这么久的人苏哈托，他在银行里有数十亿美元。
This corruption is endemic in the Islamic world, and the people in charge in the Islamic world say, “Well, we try to rule justly,” but it’s not.
这种腐败在伊斯兰世界很普遍，伊斯兰世界的掌权者说，“好吧，我们试图公正地统治”，但事实并非如此。
The family of the ruling party or the ruling clique, whatever it is, they get the priority on goods, services, and resources.
执政党家族或者统治集团，无论是什么，他们都优先获得商品、服务和资源。
Everybody else can go to hell.
其他人都可以下地狱。
That is really what the problem is in the Islamic world.
这确实是伊斯兰世界的问题所在。
There isn’t a real democratic distribution of wealth, and there isn’t a real equality of opportunity.
没有真正的民主分配财富，也没有真正的机会平等。
The way they think — .
他们的思维方式 —— 。
They have a kind of segregation problem, right?
他们有某种隔离问题，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
The Koran is the first of the books to guarantee women the right to divorce, the right to own property and to be in business, and, as you can see in the Arab world, that’s the first thing that they got rid of.
《古兰经》是第一本保障妇女离婚权、拥有财产权和经商权的书籍，正如你在阿拉伯世界看到的那样，这是她们首先废除的东西。
The way that Islam is interpreted in all of those countries really goes contrary to a lot of what the Prophet said was the way to practice Islam, and it is for that reason that it comes across so bizarrely, where people say, “Oh, we have this beautiful religion of Islam, but, yeah, we have a lot of political prisoners.
所有这些国家对伊斯兰教的解释方式确实与先知所说的实践伊斯兰教的方式背道而驰，正是因为这个原因，它才显得如此奇怪，人们说，“哦，我们有这个美丽的伊斯兰教，但是，是的，我们有很多政治犯。
Don’t worry about them.”
别担心他们。”
They go hand-in-hand, and the fact that you can be unjust on that level but say that Islam is beautiful and wonderful is total hypocrisy.
它们是相辅相成的，事实上，你可以在这个层面上不公正，但却说伊斯兰教是美丽和美妙的，这完全是虚伪的。
That’s a very unfortunate thing, but that’s what has happened.
这是一件非常不幸的事情，但事实就是这样。
You’ve written that when you were young, you used to visit the Cloisters in New York.
你曾写道，当你年轻的时候，你曾经去过纽约的回廊。
Yes.
是的。
Medieval art, a lot of it was religious.
中世纪艺术，很多都是宗教性的。
In some way, you must find Islam, Islamic art — you’ve collected Persian carpets — more beautiful.
在某种程度上，你一定会发现伊斯兰教、伊斯兰艺术————你收集了波斯地毯————更美丽。
I know this is hard to express, but is there a way you could try to articulate for us, probably most people in this audience not being Muslims, but your take on what is more beautiful that you would like to carry to all of the listeners?
我知道这很难表达，但你有没有一种方法可以尝试向我们阐明，可能听众中的大多数人都不是穆斯林，但你想向所有听众传达你对更美丽的看法？
How would you put that?
你会怎么说呢？
What has it meant to you?
它对你意味着什么？
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
I think in Islam, because you can’t depict people or animals, they put all their artistic expression into architecture and abstract art.
我认为在伊斯兰教中，因为你无法描绘人或动物，所以他们将所有的艺术表达都投入到建筑和抽象艺术中。
So in the Islamic world, buildings and books, et cetera, they are developed — the carpets are developed — it’s an interesting thing the Prophet said that depictions of humans in carpets are OK because we walk on them, and we’re not showing that are worshiping the pictures in the carpets because we walk on them with our feet.
因此，在伊斯兰世界，建筑物和书籍等都得到了发展——“地毯得到了发展”——先知说，有趣的是，在地毯上描绘人类是可以的，因为我们在上面行走，而我们并没有表现出人们在崇拜地毯上的图画，因为我们用脚在上面行走。
There is leeway there and ways of interpreting what the Prophet had to say in ways that are logical and make sense for a modern society, but because of the corruption that I talked about earlier, the people who rule in the Islamic world, they don’t care about that.
那里有回旋余地，也有方法以合乎逻辑且对现代社会有意义的方式解释先知所说的话，但由于我之前谈到的腐败，统治伊斯兰世界的人们并不关心这一点。
They just want to hold onto political and military power and all the money.
他们只是想保住政治和军事权力以及所有的金钱。
That type of corruption has led to the really bizarre and undemocratic states that we see that populate the Muslim world.
这种类型的腐败导致了我们所看到的穆斯林世界中真正奇怪和不民主的国家。
Are you a long-term optimist about this situation?
您对这种情况持长期乐观态度吗？
As a young man, I was very optimistic about it.
作为一个年轻人，我对此非常乐观。
I’m not that optimistic about it now.
我现在对此并不乐观。
It seems to be entrenched.
看来已经根深蒂固了。
Look at what’s happening in Syria.
看看叙利亚正在发生什么。
The Assad family, they’re not going to give up power.
阿萨德家族不会放弃权力。
The only way that they will be removed from power is through military means.
推翻他们权力的唯一方法是通过军事手段。
That’s not the way things are supposed to be going.
事情不应该这样发展。
Put aside the Middle East.
抛开中东。
Obviously huge problems.
显然问题很大。
Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Nigeria, for that matter, have a pretty big share of the world’s Muslims.
就这一点而言，印度尼西亚、孟加拉国、巴基斯坦、印度、尼日利亚在世界上穆斯林人口中所占比例相当大。
They have their share of problems but they don’t have those problems, right?
他们有自己的问题，但他们没有这些问题，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
Are you an optimist about those countries and the role of Islam in helping those countries develop constructively?
您对这些国家以及伊斯兰教在帮助这些国家建设性发展方面所发挥的作用持乐观态度吗？
I’m more optimistic about those countries because they have a history of dealing with a lot of diverse beliefs.
我对这些国家更加乐观，因为它们有着处理许多不同信仰的历史。
In Nigeria you have people who worship idols and stuff.
在尼日利亚，有人崇拜偶像之类的东西。
You have Muslims.
你有穆斯林。
They get along together.
他们相处融洽。
They don’t say, “Well, jeez.
他们不会说：“好吧，天哪。
You don’t think like I think.
你的想法不像我的想法。
I think I’ve got to kill you.”
我想我必须杀了你。”
Until all this Boko Haram.
直到这一切博科圣地。
These are, again, terrorists.
这些人又是恐怖分子。
I think that it will continue to be like that.
我认为这种情况还会继续下去。
The one country that I saw after what they call the Arab Spring — Tunisia.
在他们所谓的“阿拉伯之春”之后我看到的一个国家是“突尼斯”。
Tunisia has managed to make a move to democracy that’s for real.
突尼斯已经成功迈向真正的民主。
Wow, that’s the only country that made it that far, but you notice they don’t have a lot of oil.
哇，这是唯一一个做到这一点的国家，但你注意到他们没有很多石油。
They’re not trying to plot on each other.
他们并不想互相图谋不轨。
Next door in Libya it’s insane, just greed and avarice have really affected their mindset to the point where they can’t do anything rational.
隔壁的利比亚太疯狂了，贪婪和贪婪真的影响了他们的心态，以至于他们无法做任何理性的事情。
If there is an Islamic enlightenment in our future, do you think it will come from the US and the UK or from where?
如果我们未来有伊斯兰启蒙，你认为它会来自美国和英国，还是来自哪里？
I think it will come from the West.
我认为它将来自西方。
It won’t come from the places that I mentioned that are run by despots.
它不会来自我提到的由暴君统治的地方。
What do you think, most generally, is the role of American or British Muslims in the Islamic world with respect to that?
您最普遍地认为美国或英国穆斯林在伊斯兰世界中的角色是什么？
How do you view your own work and commentary getting into that?
您如何看待您自己的工作和评论？
I think it’s our job to show what Islam actually is.
我认为我们的工作就是展示伊斯兰教到底是什么。
I’m happy about certain things that happened.
我对发生的某些事情感到高兴。
I’m just talking about Southern California now.
我现在只是在谈论南加州。
A number of the Islamic organizations have gotten together.
许多伊斯兰组织聚集在一起。
They’ve gone on drives for charity.
他们一直致力于慈善事业。
They’ve opened up homeless shelters and done things to show that they care about America, they can appreciate the way America functions, and it’s OK with them.
他们开设了无家可归者收容所，并做了一些事情来表明他们关心美国，他们可以欣赏美国的运作方式，并且他们对此表示同意。
As a Muslim, we have to show that we can get along with everybody.
作为穆斯林，我们必须表明我们可以与每个人相处。
That’s not happening, unfortunately, in the other parts of the world.
不幸的是，这种情况在世界其他地方并没有发生。
Here in America and Great Britain, as you mentioned, they can see how democracy works, and see that it can work.
正如你提到的，在美国和英国，他们可以看到民主如何运作，并看到它能够发挥作用。
I was cultural ambassador for Secretary of State Clinton, and they sent me to Brazil.
我是克林顿国务卿的文化大使，他们派我去巴西。
The people in Brazil were amazed that Barack Obama could be elected president.
巴西人民对巴拉克·奥巴马能够当选总统感到惊讶。
They said a black American could never be elected president, and we elected Barack Obama president.
他们说美国黑人永远不可能当选总统，而我们却选举巴拉克·奥巴马为总统。
That gave them a different idea about what democracy actually could do and achieve in their country, in Brazil.
这让他们对民主在他们的国家巴西实际上可以做什么和实现什么有了不同的看法。
Brazil is trying to make an effort to be more inclusive.
巴西正在努力变得更加包容。
The wealth is unevenly distributed between whites and black Brazilians.
巴西白人和黑人之间的财富分配不均。
They want to change that.
他们想要改变这一点。
They want to educate the minorities and the black people in Brazil and bring them into the economy, because that will open up society to everybody.
他们希望教育巴西的少数族裔和黑人，并将他们带入经济，因为这将使社会向所有人开放。
These problems aren’t necessarily exclusively coming from Islamic countries.
这些问题不一定完全来自伊斯兰国家。
All over the world, corruption and dishonesty by the ruling parties have made things more difficult.
在世界各地，执政党的腐败和不诚实使事情变得更加困难。
Let me try a question integrating religion and politics.
让我尝试一个结合宗教和政治的问题。
As a Muslim, you must, in some ways, be a social conservative.
作为一名穆斯林，在某些方面，你必须成为一名社会保守派。
I’m not saying the same way Jerry Falwell is, but in some ways, a social conservative.
我并不是像杰里·福尔韦尔那样说，但在某些方面，他是一个社会保守派。
You’ve in some regards spoken out on behalf of Bernie Sanders, I think mostly on economic issues.
您在某些方面代表伯尼·桑德斯发表了言论，我认为主要是在经济问题上。
But the Democratic Party, it’s mostly social liberals.
但民主党主要是社会自由主义者。
Do you ever just wake up and feel that somehow there is no place you belong intellectually, and is this despairing, liberating, or what?
你是否曾经一觉醒来，就觉得不知怎的，在理智上你没有属于自己的地方，这是绝望、解放还是什么？
Do you ever have these thoughts?
你是否曾经有过这些想法？
No. I don’t have them, because within my own heart, I’m at peace with myself and how I’ve lived my life.
不，我没有它们，因为在我内心深处，我对自己以及我的生活方式感到平静。
I’ve tried to live it morally, but as far as Islamic communities are concerned, we’ve got work to do.
我试图过有道德的生活，但就伊斯兰社区而言，我们还有很多工作要做。
It’s pretty simple, but all communities, really, have work to do.
这很简单，但所有社区确实都有工作要做。
It’s not just Muslims.
不仅仅是穆斯林。
All of us — Muslim, Christian, Jew, or agnostic — we have work to do, because our Constitution and our traditions require that.
我们所有人——“穆斯林、基督徒、犹太人或不可知论者”——我们都有工作要做，因为我们的宪法和传统要求这样做。
On movies, acting, and fighting Bruce Lee
关于电影、表演和打李小龙
Other than the movies you’re in, which I love, by the way, what’s your favorite movie, and why?
顺便问一下，除了我喜欢的你出演的电影之外，你最喜欢的电影是什么？为什么？
Oh, jeez.
哦，天哪。
Why would you ask me that?
你为什么要问我这个？
I’m a big movie fan, so just the classic movies, The Maltese Falcon, I totally enjoy that.
我是个超级电影迷，所以经典电影《马耳他之鹰》我就非常喜欢。
I can continue, Shane, The Shootist, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.
我可以继续，肖恩，射手，修补匠裁缝士兵间谍。
This is all consistent with Chester Himes, too, right?
这也与切斯特·海姆斯一致，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
I liked reading Cotton Comes to Harlem, I didn’t like the movie.
我喜欢读《棉花来到哈莱姆》，但我不喜欢这部电影。
That’s tough.
这很难。
You’d have to give me different genres and stuff and let me go through it.
你必须给我不同的流派和东西，让我经历它。
I enjoy movies very much and hopefully will get Mycroft done as a movie.
我非常喜欢电影，希望能把《麦克罗夫特》拍成电影。
When you’re there in Game of Death, and you’re sitting in that chair — different than this chair, I might add, and Bruce Lee is approaching, and you’re just sitting there.
当你在《死亡游戏》中时，你坐在那张椅子上——我可能会补充说，与这张椅子不同，李小龙正在接近，你就坐在那里。
Of course you remember the scene, what are you thinking?
你当然记得那个场景，你在想什么？
We’ve got to get the timing right, because we don’t want to shoot this again.
我们必须把握好时机，因为我们不想再拍这个。
How long did it take to do that scene?
拍那个场景花了多长时间？
It’s about, what, 17 minutes?
大概是，什么，17 分钟？
Yeah.
是的。
Sheer perfection.
纯粹的完美。
It took us about a day.
我们花了大约一天的时间。
It took you a day?
你花了一天时间吗？
They work very quickly in Hong Kong.
他们在香港工作得很快。
We shot it in Hong Kong, and they work very quickly in Hong Kong, because they don’t do audio.
我们在香港拍摄，他们在香港工作得很快，因为他们不做音频。
It was so noisy in Hong Kong during the time that the British ran the place, that there was always traffic noise and people in the street 24/7.
英国人统治香港的时候，香港非常吵闹，街上总是有交通噪音，24/7 都有人。
They would do the audio portion of any movies that they made in studio with the actors talking into microphones so that they could get all the words to appear on the screen.
他们会在录音室制作任何电影的音频部分，演员对着麦克风说话，这样他们就可以让所有的文字出现在屏幕上。
Then they’d do the sound effects separately also.
然后他们也会单独制作音效。
What did Bruce learn having to fight against you?
布鲁斯在与你战斗中学到了什么？
Bruce learned that it’s hard fighting somebody with long arms.
布鲁斯了解到，与长手臂的人战斗是很困难的。
Bruce was what, 5’7”, 5’8”?
布鲁斯是什么，5英尺7英寸，5英尺8英寸？
He was 5’8”, yeah, about 155 pounds.
他身高 5 英尺 8 英寸，是的，体重约 155 磅。
What did you learn having to fight against Bruce?
你从与布鲁斯的战斗中学到了什么？
That there are some very tough guys at 155 pounds.
有一些体重 155 磅的硬汉。
What you learn is you can’t have a preconceived idea of what is ideal for you as a martial artist.
你学到的是，作为一名武术家，你不能对什么是理想的有先入为主的想法。
You have to go and experience some of the different martial arts and take from them what you can that works for you personally.
你必须去体验一些不同的武术，并从中汲取对你个人有用的东西。
I think that is the way people train now.
我认为这就是人们现在训练的方式。
The Ultimate Fighting really is how Bruce trained, very eclectically, taking techniques and ideas from any of the different martial arts and using them.
终极格斗确实是布鲁斯的训练方式，非常不拘一格，从任何不同的武术中汲取技术和想法并加以运用。
Bruce Lee thought that Sugar Ray Robinson was the best boxer that he ever saw.
李小龙认为舒格·雷·罗宾逊是他见过的最好的拳击手。
I would have to agree with that.
我必须同意这一点。
Bruce taught you.
布鲁斯教你的。
You taught Bruce some things.
你教了布鲁斯一些东西。
John Wooden taught you.
约翰·伍登教过你。
You’ve taught Joakim Noah.
你教过乔金·诺阿。
You’ve written a whole book about your experience teaching Native Americans basketball, but not just basketball, really teaching them life and many other things.
你写了一整本书，讲述你教授美洲原住民篮球的经历，但不仅仅是篮球，还真正教他们生活和许多其他事情。
I try.
我尝试一下。
Education has been a major theme in your career.
教育一直是您职业生涯的一个重要主题。
You finished UCLA.
你完成了加州大学洛杉矶分校的学业。
Throughout your life have done very well.
你这一生都做得很好。
What is it you think you’ve learned about education — we’re here at a university — that you get and we don’t, that you would like to tell us?
您认为您在教育方面学到了什么——“我们在一所大学”——您想告诉我们哪些是您学到的而我们没有学到的？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I don’t know if I’ve gotten everything.
我不知道我是否已经得到了一切。
I certainly would not have the nerve to think that everybody here doesn’t get something that I got.
我当然不会有勇气认为这里的每个人都没有得到我得到的东西。
I just try to tell people that knowledge is power.
我只是想告诉人们知识就是力量。
You’ve got to accumulate as much power as you can.
你必须尽可能多地积累力量。
That requires that you go to the library and that you read and experience life in ways that enable you to use that power.
这需要你去图书馆，以能让你利用这种力量的方式阅读和体验生活。
If you look back on your life, all the different things you’ve done, and you had to sum up, what’s the underlying unity in all the different phases of your career — hanging out with jazz musicians as a kid, listening to racine, playing with John Wooden, winning so many NBA titles, MVP awards, writing, I think, 11 books.
如果你回顾你的一生，你做过的所有不同的事情，你必须总结一下，在你职业生涯的所有不同阶段中，潜在的统一性是什么 ——小时候和爵士乐手一起出去玩，听拉辛音乐，和约翰·伍登一起打球，赢得这么多 NBA 冠军、MVP 奖项，我认为还写了 11 本书。
Having been in a number of very successful movies, having made a few movies yourself as executive producer and being in them, other things I haven’t mentioned, your Time column, being on Twitter, working with Hilary Clinton.
出演过许多非常成功的电影，自己作为执行制片人制作了几部电影并参与其中，其他我没有提到的事情，你的《时代》专栏，在推特上，与希拉里·克林顿合作。
There’s actually still much more, but if you had to try to sum all that up in terms of the unity, how that all ties into the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar philosophy, how would you put it?
实际上还有更多，但如果你必须尝试用统一性来总结所有这些，以及这一切如何与卡里姆·阿卜杜勒·贾巴尔的哲学联系起来，你会怎么说？
I would have to say that, stealing this from somebody that I can’t remember the quote I’m stealing — life is short, but it’s very wide.
我不得不说，这是从某人那里偷来的，我不记得我偷的那句话了 ——生命是短暂的，但它是非常广泛的。
Try to get into the width of it and experience as many things as you can, and maybe you’ll learn a few things.
尝试深入了解它并体验尽可能多的事情，也许你会学到一些东西。
Kareem, thank you very much.
卡里姆，非常感谢你。
We appreciate it.
我们很感激。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Q&A
问答
Hi, Kareem.
嗨，卡里姆。
Thanks for coming, that was fascinating.
谢谢你的到来，这太令人着迷了。
I was wondering, do you think NCAA athletes should be paid for the value they create for the universities?
我想知道，你认为 NCAA 运动员应该因为他们为大学创造的价值而获得报酬吗？
Do you see that ever happening?
你看到过这种情况发生吗？
I definitely think NCAA athletes should be paid.
我绝对认为 NCAA 运动员应该得到报酬。
I think it will happen.
我认为这会发生。
I just remember someone explaining to me how much money UCLA made by the fact that I was there and we won three consecutive NCAA championships.
我只记得有人向我解释加州大学洛杉矶分校通过我在那里赚了多少钱，并且我们连续三年获得了 NCAA 冠军。
He asked me, “How much of that money did you get?”
他问我：“你拿到了多少钱？”
I said, “None.”
我说：“没有。”
He said, “You’ve got to think about that.”
他说：“你必须考虑一下。”
That hasn’t changed.
这一点没有改变。
I think it should change because they’re just exploiting the athletes.
我认为这种情况应该改变，因为他们只是在剥削运动员。
There’s a way that they can be equitable about paying the athletes.
有一种方法可以公平地向运动员支付报酬。
Taking what they take by providing a platform, but I think the athletes should be paid.
通过提供平台来获取他们所获取的，但我认为运动员应该得到报酬。
They should be guaranteed, at least if they go to a college on scholarship they should be guaranteed the fact that they can continue at that school until they graduate.
他们应该得到保证，至少如果他们靠奖学金进入大学，他们应该得到保证，他们可以继续在那所学校直到毕业。
I think that is the minimum that they should get.
我认为这是他们应该得到的最低限度。
I think they should be given a stipend.
我认为应该给他们津贴。
It’s not like we’re going to make them rich, but give them the money to live on so that they can have a life.
我们并不是要让他们变得富有，而是要给他们生活的钱，让他们能够过上自己的生活。
I was going to UCLA.
我本来要去加州大学洛杉矶分校。
I couldn’t work in the off-season or anything like that in ways that the NCAA prescribed.
我不能在休赛期或类似 NCAA 规定的方式工作。
Someone on an academic scholarship or the guys in the band, they could go and work.
获得学术奖学金的人或乐队中的人，他们可以去工作。
It wasn’t equitable.
这不公平。
I think they should think about a way to not exploit the athletes and give them the opportunity to be comfortable while they go to college.
我认为他们应该考虑一种不剥削运动员的方法，并给他们在上大学期间感到舒适的机会。
Thank you for your contributions.
感谢您的贡献。
My question is, has anybody approached you about doing your life story in a movie since we were talking about movies earlier?
我的问题是，自从我们之前讨论电影以来，有没有人联系过你，想把你的人生故事拍成电影？
Just in November on HBO a documentary on my life story was done.
就在 11 月份，HBO 制作了一部关于我的人生故事的纪录片。
It’s called Kareem: Minority of One.
这就是《卡里姆：少数派》。
You can go on HBO online and you can see it.
你可以去HBO在线观看。
It’s been done already.
已经完成了。
Yes, over here.
是的，在这里。
Thanks a lot, Mr. Abdul-Jabbar.
非常感谢，阿卜杜勒-贾巴尔先生。
Thank you especially for portions of your collection that made its way to Schomburg more than a dozen or so years ago.
特别感谢您的部分藏品，这些藏品在十几年前就来到了绍姆堡。
I thoroughly, thoroughly appreciated it.
我彻底、彻底地欣赏它。
Assuming it’s been asked already, pardon me, I came through hell and high snow to get here.
假设已经有人问过，请原谅我，我是经过地狱和大雪来到这里的。
How does it feel to be on the verge of being noted more for being a historian and archivist of Af-Am material than a legendary NBA player?
作为一名历史学家和 Af-Am 资料档案保管员，而不是一名传奇 NBA 球员，你感觉如何？
Thanks.
谢谢。
I’m very pleased that I have been able to be successful in a way that enables me to be considered in the way that you just mentioned.
我很高兴我能够取得成功，使我能够以您刚才提到的方式被考虑。
That people would see me as a historian and commentator on life here in America.
人们会把我视为美国生活的历史学家和评论员。
That’s why I went to UCLA, really, to get my education, to have that foundation in my life.
这就是为什么我去加州大学洛杉矶分校，真的，为了接受教育，为我的生活奠定基础。
It’s the reason that I went to college.
这就是我上大学的原因。
I guess that’s the reason why I’m here tonight.
我想这就是我今晚来这里的原因。
Thank you for your question.
谢谢你的提问。
Can you tell us about your relationship with Coach John Wooden and how it changed in later years, if it did?
你能告诉我们你和约翰·伍登教练的关系吗？如果有的话，在后来的几年里这种关系发生了怎样的变化？
I can’t give Coach Wooden enough credit for the example that he set in terms of integrity and living a moral life.
我无法给予伍登教练足够的信任，因为他在正直和道德生活方面树立了榜样。
He was totally committed to his Christian faith and in teaching young men about basketball that would enable them to learn about how to be good citizens.
他完全致力于他的基督教信仰，并教授年轻人篮球知识，使他们能够学习如何成为好公民。
He wanted us to be good citizens.
他希望我们成为好公民。
He wanted us to be good parents.
他希望我们成为好父母。
He wanted us to be good husbands and get our degrees.
他希望我们成为好丈夫并获得学位。
That was his primary focus.
这是他的主要关注点。
If you go to all of the NCAA Division I coaches today, many of them would give up an arm, a leg, or a favorite child to win the NCAA tournament.
如果你今天去拜访所有 NCAA 一级教练，他们中的许多人都会放弃一条胳膊、一条腿，或者一个最喜欢的孩子来赢得 NCAA 锦标赛。
I’m convinced of that, definitely.
我对此深信不疑，绝对如此。
But Coach Wooden wasn’t into that.
但伍登教练对此并不感兴趣。
His primary focus was that we’d learn a few things and then if we did well in the NCAA tournament that was OK.
他的主要关注点是让我们学到一些东西，然后如果我们在 NCAA 锦标赛中表现出色那就没问题了。
He had his priorities right.
他的优先顺序是正确的。
He taught us in that way.
他就是这样教导我们的。
Those of us who understand that have benefited greatly.
我们这些明白这一点的人受益匪浅。
I think his graduation rate was in the 60th percentile.
我认为他的毕业率在百分之六十左右。
Sixty percent of the guys that played for Coach Wooden got their degrees and graduated from UCLA.
为伍登教练效力的球员中有百分之六十都获得了学位并从加州大学洛杉矶分校毕业。
That’s pretty amazing.
这真是太神奇了。
The average for most Division I colleges is in the single digits.
大多数一级大学的平均分都是个位数。
Sixty percent of the guys that played for Coach Wooden got their degrees and graduated from UCLA.
为伍登教练效力的球员中有百分之六十都获得了学位并从加州大学洛杉矶分校毕业。
That’s pretty amazing.
这真是太神奇了。
The average for most Division I colleges is in the single digits.
大多数一级大学的平均分都是个位数。
You’ve been a hero to lots of kids growing up.
你一直是许多孩子成长过程中的英雄。
I’m curious about who your heroes have been throughout your life.
我很好奇你一生中的英雄是谁。
A second question if you don’t mind.
如果你不介意的话，还有第二个问题。
I do recall, I think, that Dr. J actually did block the skyhook once.
我确实记得，J博士确实曾经挡住了天钩。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
No, Dr. J didn’t do that.
不，J 博士没有这么做。
He did his own thing where he didn’t come back down and touch the ground for what seemed to be an inordinate length of time.
他做了他自己的事情，在似乎过长的时间里他没有回来并接触地面。
No, Dr. J didn’t shoot the skyhook.
不，J博士没有射中天钩。
What was the first part of your question?
你问题的第一部分是什么？
Who have your heroes been?
你心目中的英雄是谁？
My heroes.
我的英雄们。
Jackie Robinson, Joe Louis, Wild Bill Hickok, and W.
杰基·罗宾逊、乔·路易斯、狂野比尔·希科克和 W.
E.
E.
B.
B.
Du Bois, Malcolm X, Dr. King.
杜波依斯、马尔科姆 X、金博士。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Thank you very much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Thank you for bringing up Game of Death, one of my favorite movies of all time.
感谢您提出《死亡游戏》，这是我一直以来最喜欢的电影之一。
My question is if you could tell me a little bit about your friendship with Bruce Lee.
我的问题是你能否告诉我一些你和李小龙的友谊。
And a second question, Bruce was only able to beat you because of a weakness you had in the movie.
第二个问题，布鲁斯之所以能打败你，只是因为你在电影中的弱点。
In a fair fight, do you think you could take him?
在公平的战斗中，你认为你能打败他吗？
In a fair fight I wouldn’t have any issues with Bruce.
在公平的战斗中，我不会对布鲁斯有任何异议。
I don’t think we would ever get to a fair fight.
我认为我们永远不会进行公平的战斗。
I gave him a lot of problems when we worked out because my arms are so long.
当我们锻炼时，我给他带来了很多问题，因为我的手臂太长了。
I was agile enough to move and avoid him a little bit.
我足够敏捷，可以稍微移动并避开他。
We never had any arguments that would engender a fair fight.
我们从来没有发生过任何会引发公平战斗的争论。
Thank goodness for that.
感谢上帝。
I got to meet Bruce because I started studying martial arts while I was in college.
我认识布鲁斯是因为我在大学时开始学习武术。
I wanted to continue after I left New York and went back to school at UCLA.
离开纽约回到加州大学洛杉矶分校后，我想继续学习。
Somebody introduced me to Bruce.
有人把我介绍给布鲁斯。
We developed a friendship.
我们建立了友谊。
That’s how our friendship evolved.
我们的友谊就是这样发展起来的。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
You’re welcome.
不客气。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Kareem, congratulations.
卡里姆，恭喜你。
We the people have just elected you president of the United States of America.
我们人民刚刚选举您为美利坚合众国总统。
It is now your first 100 days in office and you are given the following list of potential priorities, including providing universal health care, addressing global terrorism, fixing our public education system, fixing our crumbling infrastructure, simplifying the tax code, and addressing global climate change.
现在是您上任的第一个 100 天，您将获得以下潜在优先事项清单，包括提供全民医疗保健、应对全球恐怖主义、修复我们的公共教育系统、修复我们摇摇欲坠的基础设施、简化税法以及应对全球气候变化。
Which of those would you prioritize and why?
您会优先考虑其中哪一个？为什么？
Well, let’s see, you just mentioned six issues that have stumped the US Congress and President Obama.
那么，我们看看，您刚才提到了困扰美国国会和奥巴马总统的六个问题。
I don’t see how I could figure out a way through all of that.
我不知道如何才能找到解决这一切的方法。
All those issues are crucial to what the future of the human race is going to be about.
所有这些问题对于人类的未来至关重要。
Earlier today somebody complained about the snowfall, and I said, “That’s what we get for letting all these people in India burn coal.” That’s a fact.
今天早些时候，有人抱怨降雪，我说：“这就是我们让印度所有的人都烧煤所得到的结果。”这是事实。
How do we influence the state of India?
我们如何影响印度？
It’s very difficult, probably impossible.
这是非常困难的，甚至可能是不可能的。
We just have to try to figure out some ways to deal with those issues and hope that we get a chance to get some leverage on them because they will absolutely affect the quality of life on Earth for all human beings going into the future.
我们只需要尝试找出一些方法来处理这些问题，并希望我们有机会利用这些问题，因为它们绝对会影响未来所有人类在地球上的生活质量。
Thank you for being here today.
感谢您今天来到这里。
In your book On the Shoulders of Giants, you say that if you were not a professional basketball player you wanted to be a history teacher.
在您的著作《巨人的肩膀》中，您说如果您不是职业篮球运动员，您想成为一名历史老师。
I am a high school history teacher, and if I were to walk in my classroom and say, “Hey, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar told me personally to tell you that history is important because — ,” what kind of advice would you have?
我是一名高中历史老师，如果我走进教室说：“嘿，卡里姆·阿卜杜勒-贾巴尔亲自告诉我，告诉你历史很重要，因为 —— ”，你会有什么建议？
What would you say to them?
你会对他们说什么？
I would say to them that, unless they understand history — and I’m stealing again — they will be condemned to repeating it, which hasn’t gone that well for most human beings.
我会对他们说，除非他们了解历史 ——“我又在偷窃了”——他们将注定要重蹈覆辙，而这对大多数人来说并不顺利。
They should understand that and try not to repeat the mistakes of people that have gone before us.
他们应该理解这一点，并尽量不要重复我们之前的人所犯的错误。
That’s what that’s all about.
这就是全部内容。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Twenty years ago ESPN anchors did a spoof of people singing for charity in a song called “Don’t Walk” — this is on YouTube today in case anybody hasn’t seen it — in which they claimed that players in the NBA were traveling and officials weren’t calling it.
二十年前，ESPN 的主播们在一首名为“Don’t Walk”的歌曲中恶搞了人们为慈善而歌唱——“今天在 YouTube 上，以防有人没看过这首歌”——他们声称 NBA 球员正在旅行，但官方并没有打电话。
It was a plea for NBA players to voluntarily not travel.
这是对 NBA 球员自愿不旅行的呼吁。
There was a line in this 60-second song that said, “It started with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.”
这首 60 秒的歌曲中有一句歌词是：“一切始于卡里姆·阿卜杜勒·贾巴尔。”
I just wondered how you would plead to that charge.
我只是想知道你会如何对这项指控进行辩护。
Nick Donner Photography
尼克·唐纳摄影
I plead not guilty to that.
我对此不认罪。
Very few times I got called for walking because I didn’t get to handle the ball much.
很少有一次我被要求步行，因为我没有太多地处理球。
They gave me the ball, and it was time to score.
他们把球给了我，是时候得分了。
As far as my assignment, my assignment was to score.
就我的任务而言，我的任务是得分。
I am the all-time leading scorer of the NBA.
我是 NBA 历史上的得分王。
I think I got my job done anyway.
我想无论如何我都完成了我的工作。
They didn’t count blocked shots until 1987, but I wonder how many you would have.
他们直到 1987 年才计算盖帽数，但我想知道你会统计到多少个。
No, it was 1973.
不，那是 1973 年。
Yeah, ’73.
是的，73年。
My first four years in the NBA they didn’t count blocked shots as a statistic, but they missed all of Bill Russell’s.
我进入 NBA 的头四年，他们并没有将盖帽算作统计数据，但他们错过了比尔·拉塞尔的所有盖帽。
They missed four years of mine.
他们错过了我的四年。
They missed all of Bill Russell’s, and he dominated the league.
他们错过了比尔·拉塞尔的全部，而他统治了联盟。
They won 11 NBA championships in 13 years with Bill Russell as center.
他们以比尔·拉塞尔为中锋，在13年里赢得了11个NBA总冠军。
We don’t know how many shots he blocked, but he dominated the game.
我们不知道他盖帽了多少次，但他统治了比赛。
There’s a thing on YouTube.
YouTube 上有一个东西。
It’s called Block Art, Bill Russell.
这就是所谓的“块艺术”，比尔·拉塞尔。
If you go to YouTube, Block Art, Bill Russell, you’ll see.
如果你去 YouTube、Block Art、Bill Russell，你就会明白。
He just terrorized the league.
他只是恐吓联盟。
No one could shoot near the basket.
没有人可以在篮筐附近投篮。
He would block their shots near the basket and get all the defensive rebounds — he was a very superior rebounder — and pass it out for the Celtic fast break, which was the way they primarily attacked the rest of the league.
他会在篮筐附近封堵他们的投篮，抢下所有的防守篮板——“他是一个非常出色的篮板手”——然后将球传给凯尔特人队的快攻，这是他们进攻联盟其他球队的主要方式。
Of his 13 years in the NBA, they only didn’t win the World Championship only twice — 11 World Championships and two losses.
在他进入NBA的13年里，他们只有两次没有赢得世界冠军——11次世界冠军和两次失利。
I think Bill Russell certainly is not acknowledged for what he did because of the way they kept statistics.
我认为比尔·拉塞尔的所作所为肯定没有得到认可，因为他们保存统计数据的方式。
So I don’t complain about those four years.
所以我不抱怨这四年。
Still, when I retired, I was the all-time leader in blocked shots.
尽管如此，当我退役时，我仍然是盖帽史上的领先者。
I think Dikembe and Olajuwon have passed me in statistics.
我认为迪肯贝和奥拉朱旺在统计数据上超过了我。
If they added my first four years, probably they wouldn’t have done that.
如果他们把我的前四年加上去，他们可能就不会这么做了。
I don’t care about that.
我不在乎这个。
I had a wonderful career, and I don’t sit up at night and say, “God damn it, they didn’t — .”
我的职业生涯很精彩，我不会在晚上熬夜说：“该死的，他们没有 - 。”
I’m not worried about it.
我并不担心。
Next question.
下一个问题。
I have two quick questions.
我有两个简单的问题。
One is, who has had a better career, Kobe Bryant or Tim Duncan?
一是，科比·布莱恩特和蒂姆·邓肯谁的职业生涯更好？
The other question is, do you think Dirk Nowitzki’s one-foot fadeaway is the most unblockable shot since the skyhook?
另一个问题是，你认为德克·诺维茨基的一脚后仰投篮是自天勾以来最不可阻挡的投篮吗？
I think Kobe — what was that you asked me about Kobe?
我认为科比——你问我关于科比的问题是什么？
Who’s had a better career, Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant?
蒂姆·邓肯和科比·布莱恩特谁的职业生涯更好？
Jeez, I would say that Tim Duncan has had a better career just because they’ve been able to win more consistently, and they didn’t have to rely on Tim all the time.
天哪，我想说蒂姆·邓肯的职业生涯更好，只是因为他们能够更稳定地获胜，而且他们不必一直依赖蒂姆。
Kobe has worn his body out.
科比的身体已经疲惫不堪。
He’s only like 36 years old, and he’s worn his body out.
他才36岁，身体已经疲惫不堪。
It’s falling apart because of the stress that he had to do just taking on the load that he did, but he wanted to do it that way.
由于他必须承担自己所做的负担而承受的压力，一切都崩溃了，但他想这样做。
That was that.
就是这样。
The second part?
第二部分？
Has there been an unstoppable move in the NBA since the skyhook?
自天勾以来，NBA还有过不可阻挡的举动吗？
And I bring up Dirk’s fadeaway.
我还提到了德克的后仰跳投。
You asked about Dirk Nowitzki.
你问过德克·诺维茨基。
Dirk Nowitzki’s shot is very hard to block, but I don’t think that he was able to have a dominant career because he couldn’t do other things.
德克·诺维茨基的投篮很难被阻挡，但我不认为他能够拥有统治性的职业生涯，因为他不能做其他事情。
If he could have shot like that and rebounded and played defense and blocked shots, then he would have been all-around, and he would have gotten more credit.
如果他能像那样投篮、篮板、防守、盖帽，那么他就是全能的，他会得到更多的荣誉。
He was like a one-trick pony.
他就像一匹只会一招的小马。
You want guys that can shoot like that on your team.
你希望你的球队里有能投篮的球员。
I’m not saying that he lacked value, but he would have been considered at a higher level if he had done more on the court other than just shoot the ball.
我并不是说他缺乏价值，但如果他在球场上做更多事情而不仅仅是投篮，他会被认为处于更高的水平。
Two quick questions.
两个简单的问题。
My favorite coach right now is Gregg Popovich.
我现在最喜欢的教练是格雷格·波波维奇。
Would you say he’s the best coach in the NBA?
你会说他是NBA最好的教练吗？
Got to go with Gregg.
得和格雷格一起去。
He gets his team to play well most consistently of all the coaches that I’ve seen out there.
在我见过的所有教练中，他让他的球队发挥得最稳定。
I would give him credit, just the consistency.
我会给他信任，只是他的一致性。
Plus, you’ve got to give their front office credit for looking for players that fit into the system — players that can play defense and don’t mind passing the ball.
另外，你必须赞扬他们的管理层寻找适合这个体系的球员——能够防守并且不介意传球的球员。
That’s very important.
这非常重要。
If you can’t get players that have that attitude, it takes a while before they can buy into the team concept.
如果你不能让球员有这种态度，他们需要一段时间才能接受团队理念。
Second, I was just wondering, what are your thoughts on affirmative action, how it started, how it’s progressed since then, and would you keep it going today?
其次，我只是想知道，你对平权行动有何看法，它是如何开始的，从那时起它的进展如何，你今天会继续下去吗？
I think affirmative action has done a lot of good.
我认为平权行动做了很多好事。
It’s been abused sometimes, but, for the most part, it has done good, especially for minorities and women.
它有时会被滥用，但在大多数情况下，它是有好处的，尤其是对少数族裔和女性而言。
It’s given them the opportunity to get a foot in the door.
这给了他们踏入大门的机会。
I think people who don’t like to compete against minorities and women do the complaining, because prior to that point they had priority.
我认为那些不喜欢与少数族裔和女性竞争的人会抱怨，因为在那之前他们拥有优先权。
Now that the gates are wide open for anybody who can be successful, people want to try to eliminate women and minorities just because they feel they’re missing out on something.
现在大门向任何能够成功的人敞开，人们想要尝试消除女性和少数族裔，只是因为他们觉得自己错过了一些东西。
I don’t agree with that.
我不同意这一点。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Wooden produced a lot of great basketball players at UCLA, obviously, but it would seem to me that not very many of those great players went on to be great coaches.
显然，伍登在加州大学洛杉矶分校培养了很多伟大的篮球运动员，但在我看来，这些伟大的球员中没有多少人后来成为了伟大的教练。
Do you agree with that, and can you offer an explanation?
您同意这一点吗？您能解释一下吗？
I think that the reason that a whole lot of great coaches haven’t come out of UCLA is the guys aren’t interested in coaching.
我认为加州大学洛杉矶分校没有出现很多伟大的教练的原因是这些人对教练不感兴趣。
The only one I know of that went on to coach is Brad Holland who played with us in 1980.
据我所知，唯一一位后来担任教练的人是布拉德·霍兰德（Brad Holland），他在 1980 年与我们一起踢球。
He ended up coaching at University of San Diego.
他最终在圣地亚哥大学担任教练。
None of the guys have had an interest in coaching.
这些人都没有对教练感兴趣。
There’s not much there.
那里没什么。
Wooden produced too well-rounded of a person?
木生出的人太全面了？
You’re probably right.
你可能是对的。
I’m thinking that you’re right, yes.
我认为你是对的，是的。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Salaam-alaikum.
祝你好运。
Wa-alaikum-salaam.
Wa-alaikum-salaam。
I wanted to know whether you ever had the opportunity to meet with Warith Deen Mohammed and if you had any recollections or impressions that you would share.
我想知道您是否有机会见到 Warith Deen Mohammed，以及您是否有任何回忆或印象可以分享。
Meet with who?
和谁见面？
Warith Deen Mohammed, the heir to the Nation of Islam after the death of Elijah Muhammad who brought him into orthodox Islam.
瓦里思·迪恩·穆罕默德 (Warith Deen Mohammed) 是伊利亚·穆罕默德 (Elijah Muhammad) 死后伊斯兰国家的继承人，他将他带入了正统伊斯兰教。
No, I haven’t.
不，我没有。
I haven’t had a chance to meet him.
我还没有机会见到他。
I don’t know those people.
我不认识那些人。
We already addressed paying athletes in the NCAA, but I’m curious what you think about the one-and-done rule.
我们已经讨论了 NCAA 中付费运动员的问题，但我很好奇你对一劳永逸的规则有何看法。
As the D-League develops and gets deeper and a more thorough system like baseball’s minor league system, is there room to maybe change to giving kids the option if they want to come straight out of high school again or wait three years like the MLB draft does?
随着发展联盟的发展并变得更加深入和更彻底的系统（如棒球小联盟系统），如果孩子们想再次直接从高中毕业，或者像美国职业棒球大联盟（MLB）选秀那样等待三年，是否有可能改变为他们提供选择的空间？
What would you do with the one-and-done rule right now?
现在你会用一劳永逸的规则做什么？
Do you think maybe in the future there’s a better option?
您认为将来也许有更好的选择吗？
Which question do you want me to answer?
你想让我回答哪个问题？
What do you think of the one-and-done rule?
您如何看待“一劳永逸”的规则？
Do you think there’s a better solution?
您认为有更好的解决方案吗？
The one-and-done rule stinks.
一劳永逸的规则很糟糕。
It’s bad for the game of basketball in college, because all the talent doesn’t stay there.
这对于大学篮球比赛来说是不利的，因为所有的天赋都不会留在那里。
It’s bad for the pro game, because the guys coming out of college that have done one-and-done are arrogant and think that they are prima donnas.
这对职业比赛来说是不利的，因为那些从大学毕业的人都一劳永逸，自以为是。
They don’t think that they’re prima donnas.
他们不认为自己是首席女歌手。
They don’t realize they’re prima donnas.
他们没有意识到自己是首席女歌手。
They expect that they’re just going to be handed a job.
他们希望自己能得到一份工作。
They come in and try to dominate, and they’re not able to do that.
他们进来并试图统治，但他们做不到。
I don’t think it’s good for the game or for the individuals.
我认为这对游戏或个人都没有好处。
The D-League is a good idea.
发展联盟是个好主意。
I think it could all be solved if the Players Association and the NBA raised the age of entry into the NBA to 21.
我认为如果球员协会和NBA将进入NBA的年龄提高到21岁，这一切都可以解决。
Then that means that some kid in high school isn’t thinking, “I’m going into the NBA in two or three years, and I’m going to get all this money,” because it really corrupts their work ethic and their humility.
那么这意味着一些高中生不会想，“我将在两三年内进入 NBA，我将得到所有这些钱”，因为这确实腐蚀了他们的职业道德和谦逊。
It’s not good.
这不太好。
I just haven’t seen anything good come from it.
我只是没有看到任何好的结果。
Two more minutes, one more question.
再过两分钟，还有一个问题。
Last question please.
最后一个问题请。
Thank you, once again, for coming, Kareem.
再次感谢你的到来，卡里姆。
We’ve covered a myriad number of questions and categories.
我们已经讨论了无数的问题和类别。
What I’d like to know is when is the last time you had roti and listened to Mighty Sparrow.
我想知道的是你最后一次吃烤肉和听 Mighty Sparrow 的音乐是什么时候。
Mighty Sparrow, he’s a hero in my house.
强大的麻雀，他是我家里的英雄。
I had some roti last month.
上个月我吃了一些烤肉。
I eat roti all the time.
我一直吃罗蒂。
But the Jamaican restaurant in LA closed.
但洛杉矶的牙买加餐厅关门了。
I’ve got to find another one, but I still sneak around and try and make sure I keep my roots foremost in my sights.
我必须找到另一个，但我仍然偷偷摸摸地尝试，确保我的视线中最重要的是我的根。
Thank you for your question.
谢谢你的提问。
I’m very happy we closed on Trinidad and the Caribbean.
我很高兴我们关闭了特立尼达和加勒比地区。
Kareem, thank you again.
卡里姆，再次感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Don’t miss the next conversation: mercatus.org/conversations.
不要错过下一次对话：mercatus.org/conversations。