Juan Pablo Villarino on Travel and Trust (Ep. 44)
Today I am very honored to be with Juan Pablo Villarino.
今天我非常荣幸能与胡安·巴勃罗·维拉里诺在一起。
He is from Argentina.
他来自阿根廷。
Otherwise, his name would be pronounced “Viyarino.” I have now had over 40 conversations with different guests, but there is only one of them I have envied, and that is Juan Pablo.
否则，他的名字将被发音为“Viyarino”。我现在已经和不同的客人进行了四十多次交谈，但我羡慕的只有一位，那就是胡安·巴勃罗。
He has sometimes been called the world’s greatest hitchhiker.
他有时被称为世界上最伟大的搭便车者。
He also has a recent book.
他最近还有一本新书。
He has four books.
他有四本书。
The most recent now is out only in Argentina.
最新的现在仅在阿根廷推出。
He is looking for a publisher in the United States.
他正在美国寻找出版商。
It is called Hitchhiking in the Axis of Evil by Thumb through Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
它被称为“拇指搭便车在邪恶轴心”穿越伊朗、伊拉克和阿富汗。
Juan Pablo, welcome.
胡安·巴勃罗，欢迎。
Hi, Tyler.
嗨，泰勒。
Thanks a lot for the invitation.
非常感谢您的邀请。
I’m really honored to be here.
我真的很荣幸来到这里。
If you could just start by telling us who are you and what have you been doing?
您能先告诉我们您是谁以及您在做什么吗？
I’m a travel writer.
我是一名旅行作家。
I have been busy in the last 13 years hitchhiking around the world in an attempt, let’s say, to document hospitality.
在过去的 13 年里，我一直忙着搭便车环游世界，试图记录下热情好客的经历。
This adventure has taken me across over 91 countries, including the United States, which is my last addition to the list.
这次冒险带我穿越了超过 91 个国家，其中包括美国，这是我最后添加的国家。
Given what you do, do you ever think, “Well, why doesn’t everyone do this?” Have you come to the point where you see your way of life as a default, as actually posing a question about the alternatives to mainstream culture and normal life with family, kids, rent, walk the dog?
考虑到你所做的事情，你是否曾经想过，“好吧，为什么不是每个人都这样做呢？”你是否已经到了把自己的生活方式视为默认的地步，实际上对主流文化和家庭、孩子、租房、遛狗等正常生活的替代方案提出了问题？
Or do you think it’s just a strange niche taste that only you have?
或者你认为这只是一种只有你才有的奇怪的小众品味？
I think that actually more and more people should choose their own place in society on the road.
我觉得其实越来越多的人应该在社会道路上选择自己的位置。
I don’t think this is for everyone, but I do believe in the whole .
我不认为这适合所有人，但我确实相信整体。
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A lot of messages I’ve received on social media has led me to think that a lot of people actually want this — to have a much more nomadic lifestyle or to redesign their own lifestyle.
我在社交媒体上收到的很多信息让我认为很多人实际上想要这个——拥有更加游牧的生活方式或重新设计自己的生活方式。
That’s pretty much what I am aiming to while trying to motivate my readers.
这几乎就是我试图激励读者的目标。
Is it that you think living this kind of life makes you happier, or it’s a form of aspiration where you like the kind of person it will transform you into?
你是否认为这种生活会让你更快乐，或者这是一种愿望，你喜欢它会把你变成什么样的人？
Maybe it’s actually in some ways tougher or more burdensome on you, but you want to be a different kind of person?
也许这实际上在某些方面对你来说更艰难或更沉重，但你想成为一个不同的人吗？
You mean like this life I would have intrinsically make you happier?
你的意思是像这样的生活我本质上会让你更快乐？
Right.
正确的。
Or you simply think it’s a better life.
或者你只是认为这是更好的生活。
I think it’s the kind of life I desire and I have desired since I was a student.
我想这就是我向往的生活，也是我从学生时代起就向往的生活。
I think everyone should pursue his or her own dreams, but I don’t think it’s like a universal formula that should be exported in a massive way and everyone should do this.
我认为每个人都应该追求自己的梦想，但我不认为这是一个应该大规模输出的通用公式，每个人都应该这样做。
If you look at a world map and you look at a strange place like Kyrgyzstan or Greenland, and then you feel butterflies in your stomach, then you should pay attention to signals and then go for it and not just pretend it’s not happening.
如果你看世界地图，看到像吉尔吉斯斯坦或格陵兰岛这样的陌生地方，然后你感到心里紧张，那么你应该注意信号，然后去做，而不是假装它没有发生。
If you look at a world map and you look at a strange place like Kyrgyzstan or Greenland, and then you feel butterflies in your stomach, then you should pay attention to signals and then go for it and not just pretend it’s not happening.
如果你看世界地图，看到像吉尔吉斯斯坦或格陵兰岛这样的陌生地方，然后你感到心里紧张，那么你应该注意信号，然后去做，而不是假装它没有发生。
What’s the single most concrete feature of this new life that has so drawn you in?
这种新生活最吸引你的一个最具体的特征是什么？
Is it seeing new faces every day or the thrill of the unexpected?
是每天看到新面孔还是意外的惊喜？
Simply being able to walk so much, talking with drivers?
只是能够走这么多路，与司机交谈吗？
What would it be?
会是什么？
What’s drawn me into this — it’s the chance to have something to do, at least, with more and more different cultures each time.
是什么吸引我参与其中——至少是每次都有机会接触越来越多的不同文化。
When a country is mentioned on the news — call it Syria, Afghanistan, Romania, Norway, any country — you have something to recall which is not abstract.
当新闻中提到一个国家时——“可以称之为叙利亚、阿富汗、罗马尼亚、挪威，任何国家”——你会想起一些并不抽象的东西。
It’s not a tag or a flag, but you can recall in your memory real people you have related with.
它不是标签或旗帜，但你可以在记忆中回忆起与你有联系的真实的人。
Then I feel much more threaded with humanity and with mankind, in the broader sense.
然后，从更广泛的意义上讲，我感觉自己与人性以及人类的联系更加紧密。
Living as a hitchhiker, how much social freedom do you think you have on a permanent basis?
作为一名搭便车的人，您认为您永久拥有多少社会自由？
If you think of people in mainstream society, there’s so much expected from them in terms of conformity at work, in the family.
如果你想想主流社会的人们，就会发现他们在工作和家庭中的一致性方面有很多期望。
You’re out there on the road.
你就在路上。
But over time, is there a restriction of social freedom that sets in?
但随着时间的推移，社会自由是否会受到限制？
Like the other hitchhikers expect you to be a certain way?
就像其他搭便车的人希望你那样？
Your readers, your fans — they expect something on the Instagram account?
您的读者、您的粉丝 ——他们期待 Instagram 帐户上有什么内容吗？
COWEN: Have you evolved into more social freedom or ended up just as constricted?
COWEN：你是变得更加自由还是最终变得更加受限？
Are you in a different box?
你在另一个盒子里吗？
It’s a nice question, I love that.
这是一个很好的问题，我喜欢这个。
It’s always stereotypes.
这总是刻板印象。
The reason why I travel is because I want, in a way, to dismantle these stereotypes that there are about certain nations like Colombia or Muslim countries.
我旅行的原因是因为我想在某种程度上消除人们对哥伦比亚或穆斯林国家等某些国家的刻板印象。
But as well, there are stereotypes about people, not only about nations.
但同样，人们也存在一些刻板印象，而不仅仅是关于国家。
There is certainly a stereotype about what type of life a hitchhiker should live.
对于搭便车的人应该过什么样的生活，肯定存在一种刻板印象。
People actually have expectations on me.
人们其实对我抱有期望。
I don’t think I fit with the stereotype.
我认为我不符合刻板印象。
Some people have described me in some newspapers as “Oh, he leads a nomadic life with no bills, no fixed direction, and no bills or taxes to pay.” But I also have a house and have a point of reference in the world.
有人在一些报纸上这样描述我：“哦，他过着游牧生活，没有账单，没有固定的方向，没有账单，没有税。”但我也有房子，在世界上有一个参照点。
We have a place .
我们有一个地方。
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That’s in Argentina?
那是在阿根廷吗？
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when we come back, in Argentina.
当我们回来时，在阿根廷。
In Mar del Plata?
在马德普拉塔？
It’s actually in another city, in San Nicolás, because that’s where my girlfriend comes from.
它实际上在另一个城市，在圣尼古拉斯，因为那是我女朋友的家乡。
When we met, it was kind of a pact, like, “OK, we’re going to live traveling.
当我们见面时，这就像是一个约定，就像，“好吧，我们要生活在旅行中。
But whenever we are not on the road, I want to be near my family.” That was her condition for being nomadic, so we live there.
但每当我们不在路上时，我都想靠近我的家人。”这就是她游牧的条件，所以我们住在那里。
We go back there only to write books because we need our concentration, our space, our archive of notebooks and everything.
我们回到那里只是为了写书，因为我们需要我们的注意力、我们的空间、我们的笔记本档案和一切。
But then we go back to the road, like 50 percent and 50 percent.
但随后我们又回到路上，比如 50% 和 50%。
One year or one year and a half traveling.
一年或一年半的旅行。
Then we go back home one year in order to start a book project.
然后我们回家一年，开始一个图书项目。
Yeah, the thing about stereotypes, people would think .
是的，人们会想到关于刻板印象的事情。
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they just would feel surprised.
他们只是会感到惊讶。
I am, for example, a philatelist.
例如，我是一名集邮家。
I collect 19th-century stamps, and that would be as far away as a stereotype from a hitchhiker as it can be.
我收集 19 世纪的邮票，这与搭便车者的刻板印象相差甚远。
People just expect you to be like a hippie.
人们只是期望你像个嬉皮士。
I’m also attached to things, but I just decided to hitchhike around the world not out of an economic condition or out of being poor.
我也对事物有执着，但我只是决定搭便车环游世界，并不是因为经济状况或贫穷。
There was a journalist who stated that “Oh, he chose the way he wanted to be poor.” It’s not about that.
有记者说：“哦，他选择了他想要的贫穷方式。”不是这个问题。
You buy the stamps online?
你在网上买邮票吗？
Or you hitchhike to places where you think you might want to buy stamps?
或者您搭便车到您认为可能想购买邮票的地方？
No, no, I buy online, but it’s actually interesting to say that my first approach to world geography and history was through stamps when I was a kid.
不，不，我在网上购买，但有趣的是，我小时候第一次接触世界地理和历史是通过邮票。
I have actually designed trips in order to fit with territories that I have learned about from stamps.
实际上，我设计的旅行是为了适应我从邮票中了解到的地区。
Collecting old colonies in Africa and stuff like that.
收集非洲的旧殖民地之类的东西。
On how to get a lift
关于如何乘电梯
What strategies do you employ so that drivers, indeed, strangers trust you more?
您采用什么策略让司机（实际上是陌生人）更信任您？
As a rule of thumb, I always like to say that you stop cars with your smile and not with your thumb.
根据经验，我总是喜欢说你用微笑而不是用拇指来停车。
There are actually a lot of things you could do to improve your chances of getting a lift.
实际上，您可以采取很多措施来提高搭便车的机会。
It’s not like go there, stick out your thumb, and get a ride.
这不像去那里，伸出拇指，然后搭车。
Definitely, smiling as a car is passing — it’s a really important thing.
当然，当汽车驶过时微笑——这是一件非常重要的事情。
Then there are very subtle things that people wouldn’t guess that have an impact, and they do.
还有一些非常微妙的事情人们猜不到会产生影响，但它们确实产生了影响。
Like what?
比如什么？
Which ones?
哪些？
Just tell us one.
请告诉我们一个。
For example, a driver has on average three seconds to decide whether he’s going to stop or not.
例如，司机平均有三秒钟的时间来决定是否要停车。
He sees you, he’s driving maybe 80 miles an hour, and you suddenly pop out.
他看到你了，他的车速大概是 80 英里，然后你突然出现了。
There are a lot of things going on unconsciously through his mind to decide whether he’s going to stop or not.
他的脑海中无意识地发生了很多事情来决定他是否要停下来。
You have only these seconds to convey any message of trust, and so you have to do things.
你只有这几秒钟的时间来传达任何信任的信息，所以你必须采取行动。
For example, one is smiling.
例如，一个人在微笑。
The other one is, when you manage to get eye contact, then I reinforce.
另一种是，当你设法进行目光接触时，我就会加强。
Let’s say, I’m showing my thumb, but I also switch my hand signal and point it to the direction in which I’m going as I’m smiling.
比方说，我展示了我的拇指，但我也改变了我的手势并将其指向我微笑时要去的方向。
This makes a more personalized link over the general link you are already doing, which is thumbing.
这使得链接比您已经在做的一般链接（即拇指浏览）更加个性化。
Then the way you are dressed, the way your backpack is positioned .
然后是你的穿着方式，你的背包的放置方式。
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How do you dress?
你穿得怎么样？
I try always to be neutral.
我尽量保持中立。
I really don’t think the road is a place to manifest your aesthetic principles .
我真的不认为道路是体现你的审美原则的地方。
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VILLARINO: .
维拉里诺：。
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if you like dreadlocks and a lot of things.
如果你喜欢辫子和很多东西。
So social conformity rears its head again.
因此，社会整合再次浮出水面。
Yeah, just a shirt, normal cargo pants.
是的，只是一件衬衫，普通的工装裤。
I guess, neutral.
我猜，中立。
I try to be as tidy as I can.
我尽量保持整洁。
People pay attention to that, and that’s a way to make them develop more trust in you.
人们会注意到这一点，这是让他们对你产生更多信任的一种方式。
In the 18th century a French political writer, Montesquieu, claimed that poorer peoples show more hospitality to strangers on average.
18世纪法国政治作家孟德斯鸠声称，平均而言，较贫穷的民族对陌生人表现出更多的热情好客。
Do you think he was right?
你认为他说得对吗？
I think it has to do with many things, not only with economic factors.
我认为这与很多因素有关，不仅仅是经济因素。
For example, if you go to countries like Ethiopia in Africa, where you can find really poor people by our standards, then you will not find or receive as much hospitality as I had received, for example, in Muslim countries like Iran or Syria.
例如，如果你去非洲的埃塞俄比亚这样的国家，按照我们的标准，在那里你可以找到真正的穷人，那么你将不会找到或受到像我在伊朗或叙利亚这样的穆斯林国家那样的热情好客。
This has to do with the place that interdependence has as a value in that society.
这与相互依存作为一种价值在该社会中的地位有关。
For example, in the Middle East — and it doesn’t necessarily have to do with religion, but with geographical things — in the Middle East, I have found that people have been through millennial years to depend on each other because of the long distances.
比如说中东 ——而且不一定和宗教有关，而是地理的事情 ——在中东，我发现人们因为相距遥远，已经经历了千年的相互依赖。
They’re living in a desert scenario, where you could eventually need the help of your neighbors tomorrow, so you help them today.
他们生活在沙漠中，明天你最终可能需要邻居的帮助，所以你今天就帮助他们。
This I have found in the Middle East and the Muslim countries.
这是我在中东和穆斯林国家发现的。
I wouldn’t consider them poor, but I would put them in a middle scale if we consider Africa as well.
我不会认为他们很穷，但如果我们也考虑到非洲，我会把他们放在中等水平。
In general, countries which are used to sharing resources for whatever reason, whether religious or because they were part of the communist bloc, which also developed some social structures in which sharing resources was very common, then it’s easy today to hitchhike in Romania or Poland.
一般来说，习惯于出于某种原因共享资源的国家，无论是宗教原因还是因为它们是共产主义集团的一部分，这些国家也发展了一些共享资源非常普遍的社会结构，那么今天在罗马尼亚或波兰搭便车很容易。
So there are many, many indicators or things that could make that part right, but in general, yeah, I could say that Montesquieu had a point, let’s say.
因此，有很多很多的指标或事物可以使这部分正确，但总的来说，是的，我可以说孟德斯鸠的观点是有道理的。
Do you have a thought on why some of the societies that seem to show the most trust with respect to hitchhikers in other ways, perhaps superficial or misguided, but seem to show lower levels of trust?
您是否想过为什么一些社会似乎以其他方式（也许是肤浅的或误导性的）对搭便车者表现出最大的信任，但似乎表现出较低的信任水平？
You mention Iraq as being a good county to hitchhike.
你提到伊拉克是一个搭便车的好国家。
Iraq is not known at the macro or political level for always having a high degree of trust.
伊拉克在宏观或政治层面上并不以始终拥有高度信任而闻名。
COWEN: Do you have thoughts on that possible contradiction?
COWEN：你对这个可能存在的矛盾有什么想法吗？
I think that the problem is that we perceive countries just because of what we heard on the news.
我认为问题在于我们仅仅根据新闻中听到的内容来看待国家。
Most people would only know about Iraq or Sudan — they say “Sudan” and they will only know it suffered a blockade and sanctions from the US in the late ’90s.
大多数人只会知道伊拉克或苏丹——他们说“苏丹”，他们只会知道它在90年代末遭受了美国的封锁和制裁。
Then people would know about the Taliban in Afghanistan, about the war in Iraq, but we never get to know about the real people living there under those facts.
然后人们会知道阿富汗的塔利班，伊拉克的战争，但我们永远不会了解生活在这些事实下的真实人民。
That’s what I’m trying to compensate with my travel literature.
这就是我试图用我的旅行文学来弥补的。
You can say it’s a contradiction, but I would say it’s the way that information is treated.
你可以说这是矛盾的，但我想说这是处理信息的方式。
The stereotypes and the kind of news that the media like to show is always about the wars or the things going on between leaders, but the normal people — they just never make it to the headlines.
媒体喜欢展示的刻板印象和新闻总是关于战争或领导人之间发生的事情，但普通民众——他们永远不会成为头条新闻。
There are some published estimates you’ve offered — how long it takes to get a ride in different places.
您提供了一些已发布的估计数据——在不同的地方乘车需要多长时间。
If I may just quote: the quickest is listed as Iraq, 7 minutes on average.
请允许我引用一下：最快的是伊拉克，平均 7 分钟。
Next quickest is Jordan, 9 minutes on average.
第二快的是乔丹，平均 9 分钟。
Then Ecuador, 10 minutes; Romania, 12 minutes.
然后是厄瓜多尔，10分钟；罗马尼亚，12 分钟。
The slowest of them all seems to be Tibet, where your estimate is 3 hours 16 minutes.
其中最慢的似乎是西藏，预计需要 3 小时 16 分钟。
Now, why is Tibet an outlier on the other side of that equation?
现在，为什么西藏是这个等式另一边的异常值呢？
That’s right.
这是正确的。
The thing is, in the case of Tibet, vehicles were so scarce.
问题是，就西藏而言，车辆非常稀缺。
It’s just like a plateau with one road crossing it and maybe you would see 10 vehicles a day.
就像一个高原，有一条路穿过，也许你一天会看到10辆车。
Just not that many cars.
只是车子不多而已。
It’s not a lack of hospitality.
这并不是缺乏热情好客。
Exactly.
确切地。
You should consider different factors when you want to measure how good or bad hitchhiking is in a country.
当您想要衡量一个国家搭便车的好坏时，您应该考虑不同的因素。
You shouldn’t actually only take into consideration the waiting time, but you should consider the amount of cars that pass you during your hitchhiking.
实际上，您不应该只考虑等待时间，还应该考虑搭便车期间经过您的汽车数量。
That gives an estimate, but there are many factors that should be considered.
这给出了一个估计，但还有很多因素需要考虑。
In your six slowest, you have in that worst six Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark with slow times.
在最慢的六个国家中，最差的六个国家是瑞典、挪威、芬兰、丹麦，时间很慢。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Scandinavia.
斯堪的纳维亚。
Those countries have plenty of cars.
这些国家有很多汽车。
Why are they so slow?
为什么他们这么慢？
That’s amazing.
太棒了。
To be hitchhiking in Scandinavia, you see all this row of Volvo cars passing you by and they will never ever stop.
在斯堪的纳维亚半岛搭便车时，您会看到这一排沃尔沃汽车从您身边驶过，而且它们永远不会停下来。
I had talked to a Swedish friend of mine, and she just said, “Yeah, I wouldn’t stop either,” she said, “because it’s so cheap and affordable to have a car.
我和我的一位瑞典朋友谈过，她只是说，“是的，我也不会停下来，”她说，“因为拥有一辆车是如此便宜且负担得起。
Then if someone is hitchhiking and doesn’t have a car, you would think he has second intentions or something wrong is going on here.”
那么，如果有人搭便车而没有车，你就会认为他有第二个意图，或者这里出了什么问题。”
What I think happens is that somehow our society has driven us into the idea that you have your own house, and when you get out of the house, you just move into your little bit of moving private space, into your car.
我认为发生的事情是，不知何故，我们的社会让我们产生了这样的想法：你拥有自己的房子，当你走出房子时，你只需搬进你那一小块移动的私人空间，进入你的车。
And it’s sometimes difficult to break that cycle and be ready to share, to meet, to mix.
有时很难打破这个循环并准备好分享、见面、混合。
That’s pretty much the norm in Nordic societies.
这几乎是北欧社会的常态。
It makes it a bit more difficult to hitchhike there.
这使得在那里搭便车变得有点困难。
What I think happens is that somehow our society has driven us into the idea that you have your own house, and when you get out of the house, you just move into your little bit of moving private space, into your car.
我认为发生的事情是，不知何故，我们的社会让我们产生了这样的想法：你拥有自己的房子，当你走出房子时，你只需搬进你那一小块移动的私人空间，进入你的车。
And it’s sometimes difficult to break that cycle and be ready to share, to meet, to mix.
有时很难打破这个循环并准备好分享、见面、混合。
In a typical year, how many months of the year are you out there hitchhiking?
通常一年中，您有多少个月会搭便车？
I won’t measure it how many months a year, but what happens is we — Laura and I — we always do long trips.
我不会衡量一年有多少个月，但发生的事情是我们 —— 劳拉和我 ——我们总是进行长途旅行。
That’s your wife, Laura?
那是你的妻子，劳拉？
Yeah, that’s right.
是的，没错。
For the last eight years we have been traveling together, and we always do long trips.
在过去的八年里，我们一直一起旅行，而且总是长途旅行。
That means that the shortest one together, it has been eight months, and the longest one like a year and a half.
也就是说，最短的是八个月，最长的是一年半。
Each trip is made with the idea of making a book afterwards.
每次旅行都是带着事后出书的想法进行的。
After the trip is done, then we go back home and start the book project, which normally takes another year.
旅行结束后，我们就回家开始写书项目，这通常需要一年的时间。
So it’s 50/50, I would say.
所以我想说，这是 50/50。
Would you describe yourself as a workaholic hitchhiker?
您会形容自己是一个工作狂搭便车吗？
Yes.
是的。
I am.
我是。
People would be so surprised to see how much time there is involved on the backstage behind the screen because you hitchhike, you have books, and you have a blog.
人们会很惊讶地看到屏幕后面的后台有多少时间因为你搭便车、你有书、你有博客。
The blog is so time consuming.
博客太费时间了。
When I’m not traveling, I literally spend 10 hours a day working either by making new posts, posting social media, and preparing projects for publishing houses.
当我不旅行时，我实际上每天花 10 个小时工作，要么发布新帖子、发布社交媒体，要么为出版社准备项目。
It’s like an 8-to-10-hour routine.
这就像一个 8 到 10 小时的例行公事。
I would qualify as a workaholic, I guess.
我想我有资格成为一个工作狂。
You don’t always travel with your wife.
你并不总是和你的妻子一起旅行。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Some trips with her, some trips alone.
有的和她一起旅行，有的独自旅行。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
How do you divvy up which trip is with her, which trip is not with her?
你如何分配哪次旅行是和她一起，哪次旅行不和她一起？
Long trips, we do them together always because it requires like a year and a half.
长途旅行，我们总是一起做，因为它需要大约一年半的时间。
Our last trip together was Africa from Egypt to South Africa on the eastern side, going through Sudan, Ethiopia, and so on.
我们上次一起旅行是非洲，从埃及到东边的南非，经过苏丹、埃塞俄比亚等。
That we did together, of course.
当然，我们一起做的。
Then after that, I came here, and she’s going to Thailand next month.
然后我就来了，她下个月要去泰国。
Or she, for example, last year she went to Iceland.
或者她，比如说，去年她去了冰岛。
We have a friend, a hitchhiker on Iceland, and they had some project to do, some challenges their audience were suggesting her and her friend, challenges to do while traveling.
我们有一个朋友，一个在冰岛搭便车的人，他们有一些项目要做，他们的观众向她和她的朋友建议一些挑战，旅行时要做的挑战。
We do these little side projects on our own.
我们自己做这些小副项目。
I was in Cuba, as well, two years ago.
两年前我也去过古巴。
But the long trips, we always do them together.
但长途旅行，我们总是一起做。
Your wife is doing some trips on her own.
你的妻子正在独自旅行。
Your general lifestyle — how much harder do you think it is for a solo woman to do what you’ve been doing?
您的总体生活方式 — 您认为单身女性做您一直在做的事情有多困难？
It could be your wife, but there are plenty of other women who do or might want to do this.
可能是你的妻子，但还有很多其他女性这样做或可能想要这样做。
What would you say to that?
你对此有何评论？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
There have been, and actually, some of my inspirations have been girls traveling alone by hitchhiking.
事实上，我的一些灵感来自于独自搭便车旅行的女孩。
One of them is Kinga Freespirit — that’s just a nickname — a Polish girl who hitchhiked around the world from ’98 to 2003 and did amazing stuff.
其中之一是 Kinga Freespirit（自由精神）——这只是一个绰号——一位波兰女孩，从 98 年到 2003 年搭便车环游世界，做了一些令人惊奇的事情。
I was barely there to do crossing from Burkina Faso to Niger on a camel back, not through an official border crossing, and amazing stuff like that.
我几乎没有骑骆驼从布基纳法索穿越到尼日尔，而不是通过官方过境点，以及诸如此类的令人惊奇的事情。
I know a couple of girls who have hitchhiked across Africa alone.
我认识几个女孩，她们独自搭便车穿越非洲。
And done fine?
并且做得很好吗？
Yeah, fine.
是的，很好。
That doesn’t mean that it’s 100 percent pink experience in which everything is going to be fine.
这并不意味着一切都会好起来的 100% 粉色体验。
You definitely have to know your limitations, and you know your own template, and it must not be your first trip, for sure.
你肯定必须知道自己的局限性，并且你知道自己的模板，而且这肯定不是你的第一次旅行。
But I think that the general difficulties of traveling as a woman are not really different from the general difficulties of living as a woman in our society.
但我认为，作为女性旅行的普遍困难与作为女性在我们社会中生活的普遍困难并没有真正的不同。
But I think that the general difficulties of traveling as a woman are not really different from the general difficulties of living as a woman in our society.
但我认为，作为女性旅行的普遍困难与作为女性在我们社会中生活的普遍困难并没有真正的不同。
On dark secrets shared
关于共享的黑暗秘密
Right.
对。
What’s the deepest darkest secret you’ve ever heard from someone who has picked you up?
你从接你的人那里听到过的最深最黑暗的秘密是什么？
There’s something called taxi cab effect.
有一种东西叫做出租车效应。
It translates into people telling you all sorts of secrets after giving you a ride, from the most simple things like someone picking me up — it was a rural worker in Argentina — and telling me, “Hey, you know?
它意味着人们在载你一程后告诉你各种各样的秘密，从最简单的事情，比如有人来接我 —— 这是阿根廷的一名农村工人 ——然后告诉我，“嘿，你知道吗？
I have just been with another woman who is not my wife.”
我刚刚和另一个不是我妻子的女人在一起了。”
He was just jumping around and telling me all details that I didn’t want to hear.
他只是跳来跳去，告诉我所有我不想听的细节。
I had all sorts of people.
我身边有各种各样的人。
I remember a truck driver in Spain who took me all the way to Italy that was like one day and a half of driving, and he had been in a Foreign Legion.
我记得西班牙的一位卡车司机把我一路带到了意大利，开了一天半的车，他曾是外籍军团的一员。
He had been in the Iraqi war, in the Gulf War, and he had all sorts of traumas that the Spanish health system hadn’t been able to solve, it seems.
他曾参加过伊拉克战争、海湾战争，他所遭受的各种创伤似乎是西班牙医疗系统无法解决的。
Every time he would go down the track, it would be a chance to fight with someone.
每次他走下赛道，都是一次与人打斗的机会。
He wouldn’t be able to establish normal relations.
他将无法建立正常的关系。
After a day and a half of traveling, when I left, he was just crying over the wheel because he had been able to build a relationship with someone inside the truck one day and a half.
经过一天半的旅行，当我离开时，他只是在方向盘上哭泣，因为他已经能够在一天半的时间里与卡车内的某人建立关系。
It was so difficult for him then to see me leave.
看到我离开，他感到非常难过。
But the most interesting one in the list — it was an Italian guy.
但名单中最有趣的是一位意大利人。
He didn’t give me a ride, but he hosted me in his house.
他没有载我一程，但在他家里接待了我。
After many bottles of wine, he acknowledged he had been in jail for trafficking drug between Naples and Milan and that he had done terrible things.
在喝了很多瓶酒后，他承认自己因在那不勒斯和米兰之间贩运毒品而入狱，并且做了可怕的事情。
An hour later he confessed he had killed someone, and that he had a physical thing from his past that he needed to get rid of.
一小时后，他承认自己杀了人，并且他需要摆脱过去的身体东西。
Five minutes later, he presented me with a knife, and it was basically a piece of evidence of a murder.
五分钟后，他递给我一把刀，这基本上是谋杀的证据。
That was the murder knife?
那是杀人刀？
Yeah.
是的。
What did you do with it?
你用它做了什么？
I felt that I had to carry it because he needed to get away with that, and if I could help in any way for his rehabilitation, because he had legally already paid for that anyway.
我觉得我必须带着它，因为他需要逃脱惩罚，如果我能以任何方式帮助他康复，因为无论如何他已经合法地支付了费用。
He had been in jail for that.
他曾因此入狱。
I felt I had to take it with me, and I did.
我觉得我必须随身携带它，我也这么做了。
The American author Jack Kerouac — in his book On the Road, he suggested that maybe the real problem with hitchhiking is you feel obliged to entertain your driver on and on, and this can be quite monotonous.
美国作家杰克·凯鲁亚克（Jack Kerouac）在他的《在路上》一书中提出，也许搭便车的真正问题是你觉得有必要不断地招待你的司机，而这可能会相当单调。
Do you ever find this to be the case?
您是否发现过这种情况？
Sometimes you can get bored, but that’s the reason why I hitchhike in the first place: to mix and meet people.
有时你可能会感到无聊，但这就是我搭便车的首要原因：与人交往和结识。
Besides, it hasn’t been a matter of money — like, I do hitchhike in India or places where transportation is so cheap.
此外，这也不是钱的问题——就像我在印度或交通便宜的地方搭便车一样。
Sometimes it can be boring to repeat over and over your story of “Where do you come from?
有时一遍又一遍地重复“你从哪里来？”的故事可能会很无聊。
What are you doing?” in each car you board.
你在做什么？在您乘坐的每辆车中。
But it pays off because people then have such amazing stories to share.
但这是有回报的，因为人们可以分享如此精彩的故事。
It’s actually my default setting.
这实际上是我的默认设置。
My typical approach to explore a country is hitchhiking — that’s why I do it.
我探索一个国家的典型方法是搭便车 ——这就是我这样做的原因。
So I think it’s worth.
所以我认为这是值得的。
What’s the biggest danger you face?
你面临的最大危险是什么？
Definitely, I don’t have to think too much about this.
当然，我不必考虑太多。
It was in Afghanistan because, actually, there into hitchhiking across the country posed a threat because there were — even though my trip was meant to show that 99.9 percent of the people there were just nice people — I knew there was still the 0.1 percent that could be harmful.
那是在阿富汗，因为实际上，在全国范围内搭便车构成了威胁，因为那里 —— 尽管我的旅行是为了表明那里99.9%的人都是好人 —— 我知道仍然有0.1%的人可能是有害的。
When getting close to Kabul, I was hitchhiking with an American guy who was a volunteer in Bamyan Province where the big Buddhas used to be carved before the Taliban attacked there.
接近喀布尔时，我和一个美国人搭便车，他是巴米扬省的一名志愿者，塔利班袭击巴米扬省之前，那里曾经雕刻过大佛。
He was so excited about my hitchhiking thing, and he said, “I want to join you.” I said, “Yeah, you can, but remember that your life here is much more valuable than mine.
他对我搭便车的事情感到非常兴奋，他说：“我想和你一起。”我说：“是的，你可以，但请记住，你在这里的生活比我的更有价值。
They could take you hostage but not really to me because Argentina won’t pay any rescuer, and they know that.”
他们可以劫持你作为人质，但不是真正针对我，因为阿根廷不会支付任何救援人员费用，他们知道这一点。”
We hitchhiked, we got to Kabul, and we got a ride with an Afghan police jeep.
我们搭便车到达喀布尔，并搭上了一辆阿富汗警用吉普车。
They were patrolling, so they stopped and said, “Guys, we can take you to Kabul, but you have to know that we are the target.
他们正在巡逻，所以他们停下来说：“伙计们，我们可以带你们去喀布尔，但你们必须知道我们是目标。
The last patrol we sent here was attacked by the Taliban with the rocket-propelled grenade, and everyone died in the ambush.
我们派到这里的最后一支巡逻队遭到塔利班分子用火箭榴弹袭击，所有人都死于伏击。
Now we’re going to see if the territory is better.
现在我们要看看领土是否更好。
You can come with us, or you can do the same but walking.” I say, “OK.
你可以和我们一起走，或者你也可以做同样的事情，但步行。”我说：“好吧。
We should better stay in the car — at least it’s faster.”
我们最好还是呆在车里——至少这样更快。”
The next two hours were the most difficult hours of my life.
接下来的两个小时是我一生中最艰难的时刻。
These guys were with the AK47 with the finger in the trigger, ready to fight, and they told us to have a look at the roofs of the houses because they were expecting snipers.
这些家伙拿着 AK47，手指扣在扳机上，准备战斗，他们告诉我们看看房子的屋顶，因为他们正在等待狙击手。
Suddenly I was in an army scenario that has nothing to do with my life.
突然间，我陷入了一个与我的生活无关的军队场景中。
I think definitely that was the closer I was to potentially fatal situation.
我想这肯定是我离潜在的致命情况更近了。
Do you feel there’s something you understand about terrorism in, say, Iraq or Afghanistan that most other people would not?
您是否觉得您对伊拉克或阿富汗等地区的恐怖主义有一些了解，而大多数其他人则不了解？
First of all, people would unfortunately relate just a reason to the names of these countries, and they would miss the broader picture, which is the whole people living there.
首先，不幸的是，人们只会将这些国家的名称与一个原因联系起来，而忽略了更广阔的前景，即生活在那里的全体人民。
I can also understand how terrorists come to be because those being in these countries where they’re absolutely open to foreigners, but at the same time, it’s an easy ground in which to recruit people because of their overpopulation.
我也能理解恐怖分子是如何形成的，因为这些国家对外国人绝对开放，但同时，由于人口过剩，这些国家很容易招募人员。
Religiously speaking, Islam needs an instance of self-criticism.
从宗教角度来说，伊斯兰教需要自我批评。
I think the societies haven’t been able to go through a process of updating and allowing self-criticism.
我认为社会未能经历更新和允许自我批评的过程。
I think that in this sense, they are a bit close-minded.
我认为从这个意义上来说，他们的思想有点封闭。
It has been easy for insurgent groups to recruit people.
叛乱组织很容易招募人员。
I have seen the social mechanisms behind it and the way they really — some time ago, I was in Egypt, and there was a school.
我看到了它背后的社会机制以及它们的真实情况——前一段时间，我在埃及，那里有一所学校。
The motto of the school was that they wanted to produce good citizens and good Muslims, that they would be able to repeat the Quran by heart.
学校的座右铭是他们希望培养优秀的公民和优秀的穆斯林，他们能够背诵《古兰经》。
As long as they keep their goals of education as being able to repeat the Quran by heart, then it’s always leaving a gate open for people who are so fervent about it.
只要他们的教育目标是能够背诵《古兰经》，那么它总是为那些热衷于古兰经的人敞开大门。
If you consider your longer trips — say, the trip through Africa — and I were to suggest a hypothesis that every longish trip has at its core some central place or event or a kind of emotional heart, maybe not planned in advance, probably not planned in advance, but at the end of the trip, you realize this emotional heart of the trip is there.
如果你考虑你的长途旅行——比如穿越非洲的旅行——我会提出一个假设，即每一次长途旅行的核心都有一些中心地点或事件或一种情感之心，也许没有提前计划，可能没有提前计划，但在旅行结束时，你意识到旅行的这种情感中心就在那里。
And if it’s not there, you did something wrong.
如果它不存在，那么你做错了什么。
Agree or disagree?
同意还是不同意？
I agree, definitely.
我同意，绝对同意。
There are moments, big moments in which you really feel the whole mystic of the trip embodied there.
在某些时刻，重要的时刻，你会真正感受到旅行所体现的全部神秘感。
Africa had several of these moments.
非洲有过几次这样的时刻。
What would be the central core of your Africa trip if you had to say?
如果非要说的话，您非洲之行的核心是什么？
There would be more than one, but Tanzania was one because there I did find an Africa proud to be Africa.
不止一个，但坦桑尼亚就是其中之一，因为在那里我确实发现了一个为自己是非洲而自豪的非洲。
It was a bit more different from the situation I found in South Africa in which there have been so many ongoing tensions between different groups and ethnic groups.
这与我在南非发现的情况有点不同，南非不同群体和种族群体之间持续存在着许多紧张局势。
I really loved Tanzania.
我真的很喜欢坦桑尼亚。
Now, I recall a moment in which it was a very dense moment because it shows that you can learn from anyone on these kinds of trips.
现在，我记得那是一个非常紧张的时刻，因为它表明你可以在此类旅行中向任何人学习。
It was in Malawi, and we were looking for a place to camp outside the capital in Lilongwe.
那是在马拉维，我们正在首都利隆圭郊外寻找露营地。
It was raining like hell.
雨下得像地狱一样。
We asked a couple of people.
我们问了几个人。
They didn’t give us any solution.
他们没有给我们任何解决方案。
Then we arrived to a place which looks like — you know these places where they organize children’s birthday parties?
然后我们到了一个地方，看起来像 —— 你知道这些地方是他们组织孩子们生日聚会的地方吗？
Yes.
是的。
The place was closed, but there was a caretaker.
这个地方关门了，但有一名看守。
This guy was 25-year-old, he was a refugee from Congo.
这个人今年 25 岁，是一名来自刚果的难民。
He had crossed all Tanzania on foot to reach there, crossing rivers infested with crocodiles .
他徒步穿越整个坦桑尼亚到达那里，穿过鳄鱼出没的河流。
.
。
.
。
.
。
.
。
.
。
being chased by Tanzanian police who wanted bribes from him.
被坦桑尼亚警察追捕，警察想要向他行贿。
He had managed to reach there and find this little job.
他设法到达那里并找到了这份小工作。
And he allowed us to sleep in this house he was taking care of.
他允许我们睡在他照顾的房子里。
That was the inversion of the logic.
这就是逻辑的颠倒。
There was the refugee who was a provider for us that night.
那天晚上有一位难民为我们提供食物。
Interesting thing was that all the situations he had to go through and the war and so on — it hadn’t converted into resentment but into love.
有趣的是，他必须经历的所有情况以及战争等等——都没有转化为怨恨，而是转化为爱。
The guy said this sentence, and I can recall.
那家伙说过这句话，我现在还记得。
He said, “Mountains are not meant to meet, but men are meant to meet.” And that’s why he opened the house to us.
他说：“山不相逢，人相逢”。这就是他向我们开放房子的原因。
We were talking about international situation, and he said, “About Mr. Trump, I understand him,” he said.
我们正在谈论国际形势，他说，“关于特朗普先生，我理解他，”他说。
“If I could tell something to him in person, I would tell him that I understand him because he’s not the bad guy,” he said.
“如果我能亲自告诉他一些事情，我会告诉他我理解他，因为他不是坏人，”他说。
I want to say his words here because he would only dream about coming to the US, but I feel like a messenger now.
我想在这里说出他的话，因为他只是梦想着来美国，但我现在感觉自己就像一个使者。
How he said that he understood he was not a bad guy but that he hadn’t gone through any hardship in his life and that’s why his heart was so hard.
他说他知道自己不是坏人，只是他这一生没有经历过什么磨难，所以他的心才这么刚硬。
I felt you can learn from anyone in the street.
我觉得你可以向街上的任何人学习。
This guy is a caretaker.
这家伙是个看门人。
He was a refugee, and he’s now talking like a Buddha in Malawi.
他曾是一名难民，现在在马拉维像佛陀一样说话。
I feel like when you have these little encounters with random people, that’s when the trip becomes really meaningful.
我觉得当你与随机的人发生这些小小的邂逅时，这就是旅行变得真正有意义的时候。
On the countries he’s traveled
关于他去过的国家
My favorite song about hitchhiking is probably Marvin Gaye, “Hitch Hike.” You have a favorite song about hitchhiking?
我最喜欢的关于搭便车的歌曲可能是马文·盖伊的《搭便车》。你有一首最喜欢的关于搭便车的歌曲吗？
I don’t think I can recall any song about hitchhiking.
我想我不记得有任何关于搭便车的歌曲。
Probably Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking of Roger Waters.
罗杰·沃特斯搭便车的大概优点和缺点。
Yeah, that would be.
是的，就是这样。
Try also Vanity Fare, “Hitchin’ a Ride.” That’s fun.
也可以尝试一下《Vanity Fare》，“Hitchin’ a Ride”。这很有趣。
OK.
好的。
Now, you told us this is actually your first time in the United States.
现在，您告诉我们这实际上是您第一次来美国。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
Your 91st country.
您的第 91 个国家。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
It is because I was actually for a week in Puerto Rico three years ago.
这是因为三年前我实际上在波多黎各呆了一个星期。
Yes and no.
是和不是。
Officially in US, yes.
正式在美国，是的。
Let’s say it’s the first time in the mainland.
假设这是在大陆的第一次。
How long have you been here?
你来这里多久了？
Less than 48 hours.
不到48小时。
What has surprised you the most so far?
到目前为止最令您惊讶的是什么？
What has surprised me?
是什么让我感到惊讶？
Looking at the suburban areas from the plane was quite interesting because .
从飞机上看郊区很有趣，因为。
.
。
.
。
Which areas?
哪些地区？
Suburban.
郊区。
Oh yes, the houses.
哦，是的，房子。
Houses, states, and areas because they look as Latin American textile pattern.
房屋、州和地区，因为它们看起来像拉丁美洲的纺织图案。
VILLARINO: It’s very strange.
维拉里诺：这很奇怪。
I didn’t know, the icon of the US looks like an original art piece.
我不知道，美国的标志看起来就像一件原创艺术品。
I’m in Arlington now.
我现在在阿灵顿。
How the city gets depopulated at night.
城市如何在夜间变得人口稀少。
After 8:00 p.m., there’s very few people on the streets, at least in the downtown.
晚上8:00以后，街上就很少有人了，至少在市中心是这样。
Nobody lives there.
没人住在那里。
It’s just office blocks and buildings.
这只是办公楼和建筑物。
This is a bit curious for me because I’m used to living in a more lived-in city, you know?
这对我来说有点好奇，因为我习惯了生活在一个更有人居住的城市，你知道吗？
Argentina is almost a polar opposite in this regard.
阿根廷在这方面几乎是截然相反的。
Buenos Aires at midnight can be quite teeming with people.
午夜时分的布宜诺斯艾利斯可能会挤满了人。
Sure.
当然。
You can get out on the street at 1:00 a.m., go to a kiosk and buy a drink or whatever you want.
您可以在凌晨 1:00 到街上去售货亭购买饮料或任何您想要的东西。
Sure, that’s Latin America.
当然，那是拉丁美洲。
It’s like that.
就是这样。
Now, in a sense, you started this journey — if I understand your history correctly — in Belfast, Northern Ireland.
现在，从某种意义上说，你开始了这段旅程 ——如果我正确理解你的历史的话—— 是在北爱尔兰的贝尔法斯特。
Yeah.
是的。
How did Belfast come to pass?
贝尔法斯特是如何形成的？
That was pretty random, actually.
实际上，这是相当随机的。
I was a student of psychology in Argentina before I decided to take this nomadic lifestyle.
在决定采取这种游牧生活方式之前，我是阿根廷的一名心理学学生。
At some point, I decided it was much more consistent with the subject I was studying to go and see history unfolding in front of my nose than just staying at university.
在某些时候，我认为去看看历史在我眼前展开比仅仅呆在大学更符合我正在学习的学科。
I used to have a summer job at a hotel.
我曾经在一家酒店做过暑期工作。
It is like a bell boy or receptionist.
它就像行李员或接待员。
There was a family from Northern Ireland who I had talked to them, and I had explained to them I wanted to travel around the world, but I wanted to save up some money to get started.
我和一个来自北爱尔兰的家庭交谈过，我向他们解释说我想环游世界，但我想存点钱开始。
In those years, Argentina was going through its worst economic crisis.
那些年，阿根廷正在经历最严重的经济危机。
All the banks had fled the country, taking savings of the people with them, so they get chaos.
所有的银行都逃离了这个国家，带走了人民的储蓄，所以他们陷入了混乱。
And I was the only weird guy dreaming about un-attaching from things and going around the world.
我是唯一一个梦想摆脱束缚并环游世界的怪人。
It was a pretty strange thing — people were trying to get stability, not trying to get rid of their stability to travel.
这是一件非常奇怪的事情——人们试图获得稳定，而不是试图摆脱稳定去旅行。
This family from Northern Ireland, they offered me, “If you ever come over here, you have a place to stay, and we can keep you going until you find a job.” And that was what I did in 2003.
这个来自北爱尔兰的家庭向我提出，“如果你来这里，你就有地方住，我们可以让你继续生活，直到你找到工作。”这就是我在 2003 年所做的。
I moved to a small town near Belfast, found a job in another hotel as a receptionist, and then slowly started to move jobs.
我搬到了贝尔法斯特附近的一个小镇，在另一家酒店找到了一份接待员的工作，然后慢慢开始跳槽。
I worked there for a year and a half before I found I had small budget for the first year of the trip.
我在那里工作了一年半，然后我发现旅行第一年的预算很少。
Given that most people in the two Irelands are no longer formally religious, if you had to describe, in your vision, the core cultural difference between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, what would that be?
鉴于两个爱尔兰的大多数人不再有正式的宗教信仰，如果您必须在您的愿景中描述北爱尔兰和爱尔兰共和国之间的核心文化差异，那会是什么？
I couldn’t even tell you the difference between East Belfast and West Belfast.
我什至无法告诉你东贝尔法斯特和西贝尔法斯特之间的区别。
West Belfast is typically a stronghold of the Republican Catholic, let’s say, the Irish who are trapped there but would like to join the Republic of Ireland, while North and East Belfast are Unionist attached to Great Britain.
西贝尔法斯特通常是共和党天主教徒的据点，比方说，爱尔兰人被困在那里但希望加入爱尔兰共和国，而北贝尔法斯特和东贝尔法斯特是隶属于英国的统一主义者。
It’s interesting because, actually, the family that gave me the chance to go there — they were British, they were pro-Irish.
这很有趣，因为实际上，给我机会去那里的家庭——他们是英国人，他们是亲爱尔兰人。
I like that because it breaks the stereotype, and it’s a good starting point of the biography of this trip, which is trying to dismantle stereotypes.
我喜欢这一点，因为它打破了刻板印象，这是这次旅行传记的一个很好的起点，试图消除刻板印象。
They were not on the side they were supposed to be.
他们没有站在他们应该站在的一边。
I met great people from both sides, but most of my friends tended to be from West Belfast.
我遇到了来自双方的优秀人士，但我的大多数朋友往往来自西贝尔法斯特。
From a hitchhiking point of view, how do the two Irelands differ, if at all?
从搭便车的角度来看，这两个爱尔兰有何不同（如果有的话）？
No, they don’t.
不，他们没有。
The same way they share a rugby team, they share their position in the hospitality ranking.
就像他们共享一支橄榄球队一样，他们在酒店排名中也共享自己的位置。
OK.
好的。
As we know, you’re from Argentina.
据我们所知，您来自阿根廷。
Argentina has its own history as being a victim of colonial occupation.
阿根廷有其作为殖民占领受害者的历史。
There is still an ongoing issue with Malvinas, the Falkland Islands as we say in English.
正如我们用英语所说，马尔维纳斯群岛（即福克兰群岛）仍然存在一个持续存在的问题。
Your background as an Argentinian — how do you feel that has shaped your understanding of Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq?
您作为阿根廷人的背景——您认为这如何影响了您对叙利亚、阿富汗、伊朗和伊拉克的理解？
It helped my understanding and their understanding because it was very easy.
它有助于我的理解和他们的理解，因为它非常简单。
It’s actually easy to travel around the world with an Argentinian passport.
实际上，使用阿根廷护照环游世界很容易。
It’s good because people feel empathy because you also come from a, let’s say, developing country.
这很好，因为人们会感到同情，因为你也来自一个发展中国家。
We are in the middle.
我们在中间。
We are not a rich country, we’re not a poor one.
我们不是一个富裕的国家，也不是一个贫穷的国家。
We know what it’s like to live in a place where the traffic lights don’t work and people just cross with the road cross.
我们知道生活在一个交通灯不起作用、人们只能通过十字路口过马路的地方是什么感觉。
It has made easier to relate with people from Africa, for example, when I was explaining that we also had colonial rule in our country.
例如，当我解释我们的国家也有殖民统治时，与来自非洲的人建立联系变得更容易。
They were so surprised about that.
他们对此感到非常惊讶。
That was a good point of connection with people.
这是与人交往的一个很好的点。
You’ve written that Colombia is one of your favorite countries to travel in.
您写道哥伦比亚是您最喜欢旅行的国家之一。
Indeed.
确实如此。
What makes Colombia so special?
是什么让哥伦比亚如此特别？
Colombia — ahh!
哥伦比亚 —— 啊！
People, they have poetry when they speak.
人啊，说话就有诗意。
You can speak with anyone there.
您可以与那里的任何人交谈。
It doesn’t matter which walk of life that he belongs to.
他属于哪个行业并不重要。
It can be a coffee collector.
它可以是一个咖啡收藏家。
It can be the owner of a company.
它可以是公司的所有者。
They will have the same cautious way of speaking.
他们的说话方式也会同样谨慎。
Colombia — ahh!
哥伦比亚 —— 啊！
People, they have poetry when they speak.
人啊，说话就有诗意。
You can speak with anyone there.
您可以与那里的任何人交谈。
It doesn’t matter which walk of life that he belongs to.
他属于哪个行业并不重要。
It can be a coffee collector.
它可以是一个咖啡收藏家。
It can be the owner of a company.
它可以是公司的所有者。
They will have the same cautious way of speaking.
他们的说话方式也会同样谨慎。
Even though it’s not actually easy to hitchhike in Colombia because of all of the problems they have had with guerrillas and kidnapping.
尽管在哥伦比亚搭便车实际上并不容易，因为他们遇到了游击队和绑架的所有问题。
They are a bit cautious at the time of giving you a ride, but once you are there and you are talking to people — I really wish everyone could spend a couple of days and months in Colombia to take all the stress away.
他们在载你的时候有点谨慎，但是一旦你到达那里并与人们交谈 - 我真的希望每个人都可以在哥伦比亚度过几天或几个月，以消除所有压力。
You’ve also cited Transnistria as one of your favorites.
您还提到德涅斯特河沿岸是您最喜欢的地区之一。
Depending whose side you’re on, that’s either part of Moldova or a breakaway republic from Moldova.
这取决于你站在哪一边，要么是摩尔多瓦的一部分，要么是从摩尔多瓦分离出来的共和国。
Why is that so interesting?
为什么这么有趣？
I like Transnistria.
我喜欢德涅斯特河沿岸。
I wouldn’t put it in a rank — the better, the best, one of the best countries in terms of hospitality — but as a traveler who is obviously trying to also collect the difficult stamps in his collection, then of course breakaway republics, they are a very precious place.
我不会把它放在一个等级上——“更好、最好、在热情好客方面最好的国家之一”——但作为一个旅行者，他显然也在努力收集他收藏中的困难邮票，当然还有分离的共和国，它们是一个非常珍贵的地方。
They may not be here for much longer, right?
他们可能不会在这里呆太久了，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
You have to go there if you can.
如果可以的话你必须去那里。
That was the same case with Somaliland in the last African trip.
上次非洲之行的索马里兰也是如此。
But the special thing about Transnistria — it was bizarre, the place in itself.
但德涅斯特河沿岸的特别之处在于——它本身就很奇怪。
It’s the only place in the world, I guess, where you can order sushi and sit down in a restaurant, eat sushi only 100 meters away from a Lenin statue, which is still standing.
我想，这是世界上唯一一个你可以点寿司并坐在距离仍然矗立的列宁雕像仅 100 米的餐厅里吃寿司的地方。
It embodies a lot of contradictions in itself.
它本身就体现了很多矛盾。
Here’s a question I also asked Chris Blattman, I asked Charles C.
这是我也问过 Chris Blattman 和 Charles C.
Mann.
曼.
If we think about the New World, it seems to me that, systematically, a lot of countries in the New World are much more dangerous than countries in the other hemisphere.
如果我们考虑一下新世界，在我看来，从系统上来说，新世界的许多国家比另一个半球的国家要危险得多。
If you think about Colombia earlier on — not so much now — you think about murder rates in Honduras, Belize, El Salvador, many parts of Brazil, there does seem to be a difference in the level of violence.
如果你想想早些时候的哥伦比亚——“现在不那么多了”——你想想洪都拉斯、伯利兹、萨尔瓦多和巴西许多地区的谋杀率，就会发现暴力程度似乎确实存在差异。
Gun deaths in the United States compared to, say, Western Europe.
美国的枪支死亡人数与西欧等国相比。
Why is this?
这是为什么呢？
It’s not just one country.
这不仅仅是一个国家。
There’s something about the New World that makes some significant parts of it more violent.
新世界的某些重要部分变得更加暴力。
What is that?
那是什么？
Probably because in our evolution as territories, we have had violence as a part of it much more recently in the timeline.
可能是因为在我们作为领土的进化过程中，我们在时间轴上最近才经历过暴力。
We were conquered by means of powder.
我们被火药征服了。
I think that’s probably in the genetic of our culture.
我认为这可能是我们文化的遗传因素。
I hope not.
我希望不会。
But it’s interesting what you said about the shootings here in the US.
但你所说的美国枪击事件很有趣。
It’s something that, of course, as an outsider and as someone who it’s his first visit to the country, it would be not proper to give a very deep reflection on that.
当然，作为一个局外人和第一次访问这个国家的人，对此进行深入反思是不合适的。
Going back to the hitchhiking issue, there is some sort of relation I can establish.
回到搭便车的问题，我可以建立某种关系。
When you hitchhike, you’re trying to establish social links with random people.
当你搭便车时，你试图与随机的人建立社交联系。
I feel that in a very developed society like the US, where the value of independence has been stressed over interdependence too much, and much more than in Latin America, for example, or even Europe.
我觉得，在像美国这样一个非常发达的社会，独立的价值被过分强调，而不是相互依存，这比拉丁美洲等国家甚至欧洲都要严重得多。
I feel that when you are absolutely independent and you don’t need help from your neighbors, then also, no one is needing your help.
我觉得当你完全独立，不需要邻居的帮助时，那么也就没有人需要你的帮助了。
Then how do you feel that you are needful for your community?
那么你觉得你的社区需要你吗？
I think that we are losing…probably something happening here that some people — just some people — don’t have the chance to demonstrate their value to the community.
我认为我们正在失去……可能这里发生了一些事情，一些人 ——“只是一些人”—— 没有机会向社区展示他们的价值。
This leads to social anomie.
这导致了社会失范。
Yes, anomie.
是的，失范。
Anomie.
失范。
That may be the case when you have someone climbing to the roof of a building and shooting people.
当有人爬到建筑物的屋顶并向人们开枪时，可能会出现这种情况。
That’s the best answer to the question I’ve heard so far.
这是迄今为止我听到的问题的最佳答案。
Consider the South American nation of Chile.
以南美国家智利为例。
There’s a semifamous, you might call it rivalry, between Argentina and Chile.
阿根廷和智利之间有一场半著名的竞争，你可以称之为竞争。
If you’re hitchhiking in Chile .
如果您在智利搭便车。
.
。
.
。
I love hitchhiking in Chile, actually.
事实上，我喜欢在智利搭便车。
It’s a beautiful country.
这是一个美丽的国家。
A Chilean driver picks you up.
智利司机来接您。
Do you in any way feel that rivalry when you connect with him and he learns you’re from Argentina, hears that you’re from Argentina?
当你与他联系并且他得知你来自阿根廷、听说你来自阿根廷时，你是否感受到了那种竞争？
Or is that just not at all present?
或者这根本不存在？
No. First, I love hitchhiking in Chile.
不。首先，我喜欢在智利搭便车。
It has a very low waiting time as well.
它的等待时间也很短。
Rarely .
很少 。
.
。
.
。
actually it never happened.
事实上它从未发生过。
People are really, really — I remember being in some kind of hiking refuge deep in the mountains in Chile, but there was a road.
人们真的，真的——我记得在智利山区深处的某种徒步避难所里，但有一条路。
Then a truck came.
然后一辆卡车来了。
Laura and I were camping inside this little hut.
劳拉和我在这个小小屋里露营。
The truck driver stopped.
卡车司机停了下来。
They took a cooking kitchen and started cooking food for us because we had been under the rain for a couple of days.
他们占用了一个烹饪厨房并开始为我们做饭，因为我们已经下了几天雨。
I really had nice experiences in Chile, even if we’re talking about supposed rivalries.
我在智利的经历确实很美好，即使我们谈论的是所谓的竞争。
I once got a ride with a guy that was from the Malvinas or Falkland Islands.
我曾经搭过一个来自马尔维纳斯群岛或福克兰群岛的人。
The guy used to be the coach of the soccer team of the Malvinas, of the Falklands.
这家伙曾经是马尔维纳斯群岛和福克兰群岛足球队的教练。
The interesting thing was, it’s the first time I see a guy from the Malvinas in person.
有趣的是，这是我第一次见到来自马尔维纳斯群岛的人。
We are supposed to what, kill each other?
我们应该做什么，互相残杀？
I think he was also like, “Oh, Argentina?
我想他也想，“哦，阿根廷？
OK.” What do we do now?
好的。”我们现在做什么？
We were in a car.
我们在车里。
We were in Britain.
我们当时在英国。
The first thing we say, “Would you have a pint?” “Yeah, let’s go.”
我们说的第一句话是：“你要来一品脱吗？” “是啊，我们走吧。”
We stopped the car.
我们把车停了下来。
We drink.
我们喝酒。
We drink our problems away.
我们喝掉我们的问题。
It was a way of healing individually the problems of our countries, and I like that.
这是一种单独治愈我们国家问题的方式，我喜欢这一点。
Where is the food the best?
哪里的食物最好吃？
Food?
食物？
I actually like a lot in the Balkans.
其实我很喜欢巴尔干地区。
I like the Balkans because it’s Europe, but it has a lot of Ottoman influence, which means they are — having fresh ingredients in their food is a priority for them.
我喜欢巴尔干地区，因为那里是欧洲，但它受到奥斯曼帝国的影响，这意味着他们的食物中含有新鲜食材是他们的首要任务。
The way they have this breakfast with the olive, and this yogurt, but naturally processed yogurt.
他们用橄榄吃早餐的方式，还有这种酸奶，但是是天然加工的酸奶。
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
Nowadays, you have genetically modified food.
如今，你已经有了转基因食品。
Everything you can get in the store is like poisoned and stuff like that.
你在商店里能买到的所有东西都像是有毒的之类的。
I like this middle point, like Bulgaria and Albania.
我喜欢这个中间点，就像保加利亚和阿尔巴尼亚一样。
Macedonia is for me the best food in the Balkans.
马其顿对我来说是巴尔干地区最好的食物。
Macedonia, yeah.
马其顿，是的。
Not far from there.
离那里不远。
All the region, I think.
我想是所有地区。
Romania, definitely.
罗马尼亚，绝对是。
Yeah, I like that.
是的，我喜欢这样。
Which country has the most beautiful women?
哪个国家的女人最漂亮？
OK, I should go for Lithuania.
好吧，我应该去立陶宛。
COWEN: The most beautiful men?
COWEN：最美丽的男人？
I don’t have an opinion for that.
我对此没有意见。
On the biases travel brings
关于旅行带来的偏见
OK.
好的。
The knowledge one gains from travel — it’s very strong, it’s far reaching, it makes one more cosmopolitan, maybe instills some wisdom in us.
一个人从旅行中获得的知识 ——它非常强大，影响深远，它使人更加国际化，也许会给我们灌输一些智慧。
But what biases does it bring to us?
但它给我们带来了哪些偏见呢？
Just as people who don’t travel have biases, if you’ve traveled a lot, what biases are you likely to end up with that you need to guard against, precisely because you’ve traveled so much?
就像不旅行的人也会有偏见一样，如果你旅行过很多次，那么你可能最终会因为旅行次数过多而产生需要警惕的偏见？
It’s a hard question to answer, actually.
实际上，这是一个很难回答的问题。
A bias is something you are conditioned by your trip, you mean, and then you .
偏见是你的旅行所决定的，你的意思是，然后你……。
.
。
.
。
things you take for granted?
你认为理所当然的事情？
You start taking new things for granted.
你开始把新事物视为理所当然。
Probably.
大概。
Yeah, that’s a thing, probably.
是的，这可能是一件事。
When you just go to a country and the people are just ticking off the bucket list thing, like sightseeing.
当你刚去一个国家时，人们只是在你的愿望清单上打勾，比如观光。
Probably I’ve seen a hundred Buddhist temples already and ruins and that.
也许我已经看过一百座佛教寺庙和废墟之类的了。
I feel that that makes me focus much more on very, very specific things, on people, and not sightseeing or stuff like that.
我觉得这让我更加关注非常非常具体的事情、人，而不是观光或类似的事情。
That as a traveler, I mean.
我的意思是，作为一名旅行者。
In other areas, I can’t recall now, probably there are.
其他的地方，我现在记不清了，应该是有的。
Do you think travel makes people more conservative?
你认为旅行会让人们变得更加保守吗？
I don’t mean that in the political sense of any party, but conservative in the literal adjectival sense, that you’ve seen many different ways of life; you see that in different ways they can work, or many people can be happy within them.
我并不是指任何政党的政治意义上的保守派，而是字面形容词意义上的保守派，你已经看到了许多不同的生活方式；你会发现它们可以以不同的方式发挥作用，或者许多人可以在其中感到快乐。
Tolerance is one half of that, but a kind of conservatism or acceptance is another part.
宽容是其中的一半，但某种保守主义或接受是另一部分。
Do you think that’s a bias of travel, a benefit of travel, not the case?
你认为这是旅行的偏见、旅行的好处，事实并非如此？
You mean like if you have seen a lot of countries in which people are striving to make a living, and then you mean that that would cause you to accept that?
你的意思是，如果你看到很多国家的人们都在努力谋生，那么你的意思是这会让你接受这一点？
That you’ve seen the possibility that people can be happy in many different settings.
你已经看到了人们在许多不同的环境中都可以快乐的可能性。
Yeah.
是的。
I think that definitely makes you stronger.
我认为这肯定会让你变得更坚强。
Stronger in the sense that it helps you to be happier with less, I think.
我认为，更强是指它可以帮助你用更少的钱获得更快乐。
Also, it helps you to not take for granted what you have at home.
此外，它还可以帮助您不要将家里拥有的东西视为理所当然。
When we were in Africa last year, no one had a tap on his house where they would switch it and have running water.
去年我们在非洲时，没有人家有水龙头，可以打开水龙头并有自来水。
They would have to walk to the next little river.
他们必须步行到下一条小河。
Normally, it was the women doing that, and they would have to walk like one mile to get a big full load full of water to their house.
通常情况下，是妇女们这样做，她们必须步行大约一英里才能将一大堆水运到家里。
We all have taps with running water.
我们都有自来水的水龙头。
So it really helps you not to take things for granted.
所以它确实可以帮助你不要把事情视为理所当然。
While preparing for this talk, I looked up quotations about travel.
在准备这次演讲时，我查阅了有关旅行的引言。
I like to do that.
我喜欢这样做。
I was shocked at how ordinary or banal all of them were.
我对他们的平凡或平庸感到震惊。
“Travel opens up your horizons.” “Travel makes you a new person.” Arguably true, but they seem so trite and uninteresting.
“旅行可以开阔你的视野。” “旅行让你焕然一新。”可以说是正确的，但它们看起来是如此陈腐和无趣。
So the question I have for you is, what is it about travel that no one else will tell us?
所以我要问你的问题是，关于旅行，有什么是别人不会告诉我们的？
What is it about travel that no .
旅行到底是什么？
.
。
.
。
Getting past the trite and the banal, which may well be true.
超越陈腐和平庸，这很可能是真的。
What will no one else tell us?
其他人不会告诉我们什么？
The problem is that traveling, and even our role as bloggers, has fallen for some people only into promoting these nations, and you fall into the touristic aspect of it, while I try to enhance and stress the way travel can change the way you relate to the whole planet.
问题是，旅行，甚至我们作为博主的角色，对某些人来说只是为了宣传这些国家，而你却陷入了其中的旅游方面，而我试图加强和强调旅行可以改变你与整个地球的联系方式。
This also is a responsibility because the more you travel, and the more you get out of the abstract tags, and the more you’re able to relate to real people, then you start feeling empathy for real people from Colombia, Albania, Iraq, wherever.
这也是一种责任，因为你旅行的次数越多，你就越能摆脱抽象标签，你就越能与真实的人建立联系，然后你就会开始对来自哥伦比亚、阿尔巴尼亚、伊拉克等任何地方的真实的人产生同情心。
The problem is that traveling, and even our role as bloggers, has fallen for some people only into promoting these nations, and you fall into the touristic aspect of it, while I try to enhance and stress the way travel can change the way you relate to the whole planet.
问题是，旅行，甚至我们作为博主的角色，对某些人来说只是为了宣传这些国家，而你却陷入了其中的旅游方面，而我试图加强和强调旅行可以改变你与整个地球的联系方式。
This also is a responsibility because the more you travel, and the more you get out of the abstract tags, and the more you’re able to relate to real people, then you start feeling empathy for real people from Colombia, Albania, Iraq, wherever.
这也是一种责任，因为你旅行的次数越多，你就越能摆脱抽象标签，你就越能与真实的人建立联系，然后你就会开始对来自哥伦比亚、阿尔巴尼亚、伊拉克等任何地方的真实的人产生同情心。
Then you’re less prone to subscribe to any or to vote your own government in your home country, which is then going to declare war or sanctions on these countries.
然后你就不太可能支持任何国家的政府或投票给你自己的政府，然后政府就会对这些国家宣战或实施制裁。
Traveling has this little twist that can make you a more aware person, and then you have this responsibility of transmitting this at home and in your own levels of influence.
旅行有一个小小的转变，可以让你成为一个更有意识的人，然后你就有责任在家里和你自己的影响力范围内传播这一点。
I think that’s the most interesting potential traveling has.
我认为这是旅行最有趣的潜力。
If you’re going to visit a new country or region where you’ve never been, other than simply going, what kind of preparation do you do in advance?
如果你要去一个从未去过的新国家或地区，除了简单的去，你会提前做哪些准备？
The fact that I hitchhike doesn’t mean that I leave everything at random.
我搭便车并不意味着我可以随意离开一切。
People sometimes tend to think that I will just land there and start hitchhiking randomly in any direction, which is not the case.
人们有时倾向于认为我会在那里着陆并开始随机向任何方向搭便车，但事实并非如此。
I always travel by hitchhiking.
我总是搭便车旅行。
That’s a rule, but of course, I always read a lot about the country, about its history, and I try to identify regions that have their own identity within that country.
这是一条规则，但当然，我总是读很多关于这个国家及其历史的文章，并且我试图找出该国境内具有自己身份的地区。
That’s normally the case.
通常情况就是这样。
If you go to Ethiopia, you have the Omo Valley, and you have the highlands.
如果你去埃塞俄比亚，你会看到奥莫山谷和高原。
Everything changes between each region.
每个地区之间的一切都在变化。
I try to read a lot of history about the country.
我尝试阅读很多有关这个国家的历史。
But then I will stick to my standard approach, which is choosing small roads, minor roads, and visiting random towns along them.
但接下来我会坚持我的标准方法，即选择小路、小路，并随机参观沿途的城镇。
That would be my average strategy of trying to get to the stories and to the people.
这将是我试图了解故事和人们的平均策略。
In two weeks, I’m going to Ethiopia for 11 days.
两周后，我要去埃塞俄比亚待 11 天。
Given that you’ve been there and done some research, what advice or tips would you give me for my trip?
鉴于您去过那里并做了一些研究，您会给我的旅行什么建议或提示？
For Ethiopia and for 11 days?
埃塞俄比亚 11 天？
Eleven days.
十一天。
I’ll have some time.
我会有一些时间。
Not enough time to go around the whole country.
没有足够的时间走遍全国。
I would definitely stick to the north, which is the place where you have Gondar, which used to be the imperial seat of power of the Ethiopian emperors.
我肯定会选择北方，那里有贡德尔，曾经是埃塞俄比亚皇帝的权力所在地。
I would go to Gondar to see the castles and to understand all this history and lineage of the Ethiopian empire.
我会去贡德尔参观城堡并了解埃塞俄比亚帝国的所有历史和血统。
I would definitely put Lalibela, the rock-carved churches, the underground churches of Lalibela, which is something amazing.
我肯定会选择拉利贝拉，那些岩石雕刻的教堂，拉利贝拉的地下教堂，这真是太神奇了。
You should actually be there on a Sunday because then you can even .
实际上你应该在周日去那里，因为那时你甚至可以。
.
。
.
。
It doesn’t matter your religious position — you should go and witness a mass service there.
无论你的宗教立场如何，你都应该去那里观看一场群众仪式。
Lalibela, Gondar, the monasteries in Bahir Dar.
拉利贝拉、贡德尔、巴赫达尔的修道院。
Conceptually, what should I understand about the country and its cultures that maybe I don’t know right now, never having been?
从概念上讲，对于这个我现在可能不了解、甚至从未了解过的国家及其文化，我应该了解什么？
Oh, get ready.
哦，准备好。
Get ready for Ethiopia.
为埃塞俄比亚做好准备。
It has been one of the most difficult countries for me to hitchhike, but if you’re going to be there 11 days, and you will have some things already organized .
对我来说，这是最难搭便车的国家之一，但如果你要去那里 11 天，你就会已经安排好了一些事情。
.
。
.
。
I will use plane tickets rather than hitchhiking.
我会使用机票而不是搭便车。
Then you will not be hit so much, but you will be hit.
那么你就不会被打击那么多，但是你会被打击。
COWEN: Hit by what?
COWEN：被什么击中了？
People in Ethiopia — it’s not so huge a country with 90 million people.
埃塞俄比亚人民——这个国家并不大，只有 9000 万人口。
It’s a bit crowded.
有点拥挤。
I felt that they had a history.
我感觉他们有一段历史。
Ethiopians have a very interesting case because they combine the pride of an empire.
埃塞俄比亚人有一个非常有趣的案例，因为他们结合了帝国的自豪感。
They are so proud the empire has never been beaten or conquest, just leaving aside six hours of Italian presence during the Second World War.
他们为帝国从未被击败或征服而感到自豪，仅撇开第二次世界大战期间意大利在场的六个小时不说。
But besides that, they have never been conquered, and they have their pride.
但除此之外，他们从未被征服过，他们有自己的骄傲。
It’s so much there.
那里有很多。
When we went to Kenya after Ethiopia, we were telling Ethiopians our next step.
当我们继埃塞俄比亚之后前往肯尼亚时，我们正在告诉埃塞俄比亚人我们的下一步。
They said, “Oh, you’re going to Africa?
他们说：“哦，你要去非洲吗？
They are so different from us.
他们与我们是如此不同。
We are Ethiopians.”
我们是埃塞俄比亚人。”
They consider themselves a different lineage.
他们认为自己是不同的血统。
You should be ready for that, in contradiction with all the poverty they have.
你应该为此做好准备，这与他们所拥有的贫困相矛盾。
It’s this mix of so staunchly proud people with a very, very challenging present.
这是一群如此坚定自豪的人与一个非常非常具有挑战性的礼物的组合。
They are not able to identify it.
他们无法识别它。
On Argentina
关于阿根廷
I have a few questions about Argentina, if I may.
如果可以的话，我有几个关于阿根廷的问题。
Yeah.
是的。
The elites of Argentina — wealthy, highly educated people — do they understand their own country, or are they insulated and removed from it?
阿根廷的精英们——“富有、受过高等教育的人”——“他们了解自己的国家吗？还是与这个国家隔绝并远离它？”
No. They understand but that doesn’t mean that they can feel empathy for them, or that they want to do something to improve it.
不。他们理解，但这并不意味着他们可以同情他们，或者他们想做一些事情来改善它。
Of course, they know who are they governing, but they are so far away from it.
当然，他们知道他们在统治谁，但他们离这个目标还很远。
Our country is an interesting case in Latin America because it’s composed of a high percentage of people who descend from European migrations.
我们的国家是拉丁美洲的一个有趣的例子，因为它由欧洲移民后裔组成的比例很高。
Same scenarios in the United States.
美国也有同样的情况。
Probably, if you were European in the 19th century and you wanted to emigrate, your choices were New York or Buenos Aires.
如果您是 19 世纪的欧洲人并且想移民，您的选择可能是纽约或布宜诺斯艾利斯。
The most probable places would be those.
最有可能的地方就是那些。
Probably Australia as well.
澳大利亚应该也是如此。
That made Argentina very complex demographically speaking.
从人口角度来看，这使得阿根廷变得非常复杂。
Then we have a lot of provinces which are a world away from the standard of living of Buenos Aires, like the north and the far north.
我们还有很多省份的生活水平与布宜诺斯艾利斯的生活水平相差甚远，比如北部和最北地区。
Definitely, our elites just don’t get there, and that’s the areas of the country where development never reaches.
当然，我们的精英根本达不到那里，而那是国家发展永远达不到的地区。
Why is Argentina today not as wealthy as Australia?
为什么今天的阿根廷不如澳大利亚富裕？
As you probably know, it was in the 1920s.
你可能知道，那是在 20 世纪 20 年代。
Yeah, it was.
是的，确实如此。
It used to be in the top 10 richest countries in the world.
它曾经是世界上最富有的10个国家之一。
That’s actually why my grandparents went there in the 1920s.
这实际上就是我的祖父母在 20 年代去那里的原因。
I still have the ship ticket — the steamship ticket — on which they came.
我还留着他们来时的船票 ——轮船票—— 。
Where did they leave from?
他们从哪里离开？
Italy.
意大利。
What part?
什么部分？
They came from Sicily, but normally, they would take the ship from Genoa, which is the standard place where you would board a ship.
他们来自西西里岛，但通常情况下，他们会从热那亚乘船，这是标准的登船地点。
My family is half Italian, the same as probably 50 percent of people in Argentina.
我的家人有一半意大利血统，大概和阿根廷 50% 的人一样。
That’s the average case.
这是一般情况。
Sorry, your question was why we’re not as rich as Australia?
抱歉，你的问题是为什么我们没有澳大利亚那么富有？
I think there was a turn in our history, somewhere in the late ’60s, where the military government had an economic agenda which was not set by our own people but by international entities such as IMF and the World Bank.
我认为我们的历史发生了转折，在 60 年代末的某个时候，军政府的经济议程不是由我们自己的人民制定的，而是由国际货币基金组织和世界银行等国际实体制定的。
I think we owe a big deal to that for changing the tide.
我认为我们对改变潮流负有重大责任。
To what extent do you understand Argentina as being a kind of Italian country or offshoot, rather than Hispanic in the sense that we might consider much of the rest of Latin America?
您在多大程度上将阿根廷理解为意大利国家或分支，而不是我们可能会考虑拉丁美洲其他大部分国家的西班牙裔国家？
The richness of the country relates actually on the complexity because you couldn’t say Argentina is a European country.
这个国家的富裕实际上与复杂性有关，因为你不能说阿根廷是一个欧洲国家。
We have an important percentage of the population who descends from Europeans, but these people also mix with the original inhabitants of our land.
我们的人口中有很大一部分是欧洲人的后裔，但这些人也与我们土地上的原始居民混在一起。
It happened similarly in the US in the way that you also had your original people living here, which were gradually moved west.
在美国也发生了类似的情况，你们也有原住民居住在这里，他们逐渐向西迁移。
It happened with us in Argentina the same as it happened here.
我们在阿根廷发生的事情和在这里发生的情况一样。
Most of the culture was erased.
大部分文化都被抹去了。
But those who stayed, they combined and they made the society we have today.
但那些留下来的人团结起来，创造了我们今天的社会。
So it’s definitely a mix, and it’s not a European country.
所以它绝对是一个混合体，而且它不是欧洲国家。
Though some people like to see it as we are elite, we are different, we are better, which is different but we are not better.
虽然有些人喜欢认为我们是精英，但我们是不同的，我们是更好的，这是不同的，但我们并不更好。
Are you optimistic about Argentina?
您对阿根廷队持乐观态度吗？
We have survived so many crises that I think we still have the will to stand anew.
我们经历了如此多的危机，我认为我们仍然有重新站起来的意愿。
As we talk now, there’s a huge climate of uncertainty.
正如我们现在所说，存在巨大的不确定性气氛。
The exchange rate with the dollar has switched 10 percent in two days.
与美元的汇率在两天内变化了10%。
This is May we’re speaking in.
这是我们正在谈论的五月。
It fell about 10 percent last week — for the listeners — but you are optimistic.
上周它下跌了约 10% ——“对于听众来说”—— 但你很乐观。
I think I’m optimistic, yeah.
我想我很乐观，是的。
In the long run, but not in the present government we have now.
从长远来看，但不是在我们现在的政府中。
I’m not optimistic at all about the present government we have now.
我对我们现在的政府一点也不乐观。
Are you optimistic about Pope Francis?
您对教皇方济各持乐观态度吗？
The church hasn’t really changed in 2,000 years.
2000年来，教堂并没有真正改变。
They just hold their romantic and symbolic positions.
他们只是保持浪漫和象征性的立场。
They’re not fighting any battle I can ostensibly see.
他们没有进行任何我表面上可以看到的战斗。
I don’t know over what I have to be optimistic or not.
我不知道我该乐观还是不该乐观。
I just find it funny that we have a pope from our country.
我只是觉得很有趣，我们有一位来自我们国家的教皇。
Who is your favorite author from Argentina?
您最喜欢的阿根廷作家是谁？
And why?
为什么？
I like two authors actually, which people tend to consider contradictory.
我实际上喜欢两个作者，人们往往认为这是矛盾的。
One is Julio Cortázar, which I love, especially — how to translate Rayuela?
其中之一是 Julio Cortázar，我很喜欢他，特别是 —— 如何翻译 Rayuela？
Hopscotch.
跳房子。
Hopscotch, yeah.
跳房子，是的。
One of my favorite novels also.
也是我最喜欢的小说之一。
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
I love Hopscotch.
我喜欢跳房子。
The other writer is Borges.
另一位作家是博尔赫斯。
Those are also my two favorites from your country.
这也是我最喜欢的两个来自贵国的作品。
Cool.
凉爽的。
I like the way they complement each other.
我喜欢他们互补的方式。
I like Cortázar because he mixes the intellectual game of writing with the very bohemian sense of his lifestyle when he was in Paris.
我喜欢科塔萨尔，因为他将写作的智力游戏与他在巴黎时的生活方式的波西米亚风格融为一体。
That probably inspired me a lot when taking the decision to leave as a wandering artist.
当我决定离开流浪艺术家时，这可能给了我很大的启发。
If you had to tell a person who had traveled a lot, understood something about the world, but they had never been to Argentina before, and they had two weeks, how would you outline the ideal trip through Argentina for them?
如果你必须告诉一个经常旅行、对世界有所了解的人，但他们以前从未去过阿根廷，而且他们只有两周的时间，你会如何为他们勾勒出理想的阿根廷之旅？
What should they not miss other than the obvious?
除了显而易见的事情之外，他们不应该错过什么？
So yes, they go to Buenos Aires, they go to Iguazú.
所以是的，他们去了布宜诺斯艾利斯，他们去了伊瓜苏。
But what else?
但还有什么？
That’s the thing.
就是这样。
Everyone wants the bucket list.
每个人都想要遗愿清单。
Probably I would add the Perito Moreno glaciers in the south because Patagonia is an extensive place, full of wonderful scenarios.
也许我会加上南部的佩里托莫雷诺冰川，因为巴塔哥尼亚是一个广阔的地方，充满了奇妙的场景。
Definitely you should at least eat an asado, our barbecues, which we call “asado.” That’s a typical Argentinian experience you should eat.
当然，您至少应该吃一下asado，我们的烧烤，我们称之为“asado”。这是您应该品尝的典型阿根廷美食。
Where is that best in the country?
国内哪里最好？
You have to meet local friends and do it on a Sunday with local people.
你必须会见当地的朋友，并在周日与当地人一起做。
You can go to a restaurant and ask for the best steak they can produce, but you’re going to be seated there in the restaurant alone.
你可以去一家餐厅要求他们能制作出最好的牛排，但你将独自坐在餐厅里。
There’s a whole social ritual around preparing the barbecue, the asado, and that’s something that will make you understand a lot of things about Argentinian culture, people speaking about soccer results and so on, politics.
准备烧烤、asado 是一种完整的社交仪式，这会让你了解很多关于阿根廷文化、人们谈论足球比赛结果等等、政治的事情。
That should be something that shouldn’t be missed.
这应该是一件不容错过的事情。
What’s the best place to visit in the north of Argentina?
阿根廷北部最好的旅游地点是哪里？
In the north?
在北方？
Definitely, I love the northwest, which is also the grounds in which randomly I happened to take the decision of becoming nomadic.
当然，我热爱西北，这也是我偶然做出游牧决定的原因。
It’s Salta Province, in the Calchaquies Valleys.
这是萨尔塔省，位于卡尔查基山谷。
That’s where in 2002 I had this insight.
2002 年，我就是在这个时候有了这样的见解。
I said, “OK, yeah, I should go for this.”
我说：“好吧，是的，我应该这么做。”
If you think of your own future for yourself, what is it you’re planning next?
如果您为自己考虑自己的未来，接下来您打算做什么？
You mean in the short term or with my retirement?
你是说短期内还是退休后？
COWEN: Start with the short term.
COWEN：从短期开始。
The short term, I think I keep doing what I’m doing, no?
短期来看，我想我会继续做我正在做的事情，不是吗？
So you will write more books and take more long trips?
那么你会写更多的书并进行更多的长途旅行吗？
That’s something that is definitely going to happen.
这是肯定会发生的事情。
I think the next move is trying to make the books available in the US or in the UK because I feel that’s a place where the books are necessary — even more than my home country — because that’s where decisions are being made.
我认为下一步是尝试在美国或英国提供这些书，因为我觉得这些书是必要的——“甚至比我的祖国更重要”——因为那里是做出决定的地方。
That’s my whole concept of travel literature, is to try to change people’s views and make them have empathy and also affect the decisions they take in life.
这就是我对旅行文学的整个概念，就是试图改变人们的观点，让他们产生同理心，并影响他们在生活中做出的决定。
So that would be my next big challenge, to get published in the US.
所以这将是我的下一个重大挑战，在美国出版。
As regards to lifestyle, I think I will continue making long trips and publishing books.
至于生活方式，我想我会继续长途旅行和出书。
That for sure, yeah.
那是肯定的，是的。
And in the longer term, what is next for you?
从长远来看，你的下一步计划是什么？
In the longer term, you know that when I made this decision of traveling for life, one of the things I was afraid of was, of course, this economic stability.
从长远来看，你知道，当我做出终生旅行的决定时，我担心的事情之一当然是经济稳定。
People were asking me, “OK, but what are you going to do in the long run?
人们问我：“好吧，但从长远来看你打算做什么？
OK, you can do this because you’re young, but what are you going to do when you are 40?”
好吧，你可以这样做，因为你还年轻，但是当你40岁的时候你会做什么呢？”
The thing is I’m already 40, but they were asking me this when I was 20.
问题是我已经 40 岁了，但他们在我 20 岁时问我这个问题。
They were forecasting, “Oh, when you’re 30, you’re going to understand.
他们预测，“哦，当你 30 岁的时候，你就会明白了。
You should have kids and this.” Then I turned 30, and now I turned 40, and I keep doing the same stuff.
你应该有孩子和这个。”然后我30岁了，现在我40岁了，我一直在做同样的事情。
I think Oscar Wilde said that the only way not to get old was to continue repeating the same mistakes.
我记得奥斯卡·王尔德说过，不老的唯一方法就是继续重复同样的错误。
He would be proud of me.
他会为我感到骄傲。
When I took this decision, I imagined, “OK, what’s the worst possible scenario?
当我做出这个决定时，我想象：“好吧，最糟糕的情况是什么？
What can the worst happen to me?” In that time, my books were not like they are now.
最糟糕的事情会发生在我身上吗？”那时，我的书不像现在这样。
They were handmade, photocopied books, just a bunch of A4-size papers stapled together, and I would sell them around in bars and hostels.
它们是手工制作的影印书，只是一堆 A4 大小的纸张钉在一起，我会在酒吧和旅馆里出售它们。
I decided, OK, it cannot get worse than that.
我决定，好吧，事情不会比这更糟糕了。
If the worst possible scenario is I would be an old hippie going around Southeast Asia, sharing inspiration with his younger travelers and making a living out of it, welcome.
如果最糟糕的情况是我会成为一个游遍东南亚的老嬉皮士，与年轻的旅行者分享灵感并以此为生，欢迎。
I can go for that.
我可以这么做。
It will look nice in my biography.
它在我的传记中看起来会很好。
After that, I never again had fears of the future, retirement.
从那以后，我再也没有对未来、退休感到恐惧。
Obviously, you’re managing to persist as it is, but do you ever think how your business model might evolve over time?
显然，你正在设法坚持现状，但你有没有想过你的商业模式会随着时间的推移如何发展？
It evolved a lot already, actually.
实际上，它已经发展了很多。
Tell us.
告诉我们。
As I said, this started as photocopied books, like 50 to 100 pages.
正如我所说，一开始是影印书，大约 50 到 100 页。
When I published .
当我发布 .
.
。
.
。
Published is a very generous word for going to a photocopy place and ordering 50 copies of this!
“已出版”是一个非常慷慨的词，指的是去复印店订购 50 份！
It’s all publishing.
都是出版的。
We write blogs, right?
我们写博客，对吗？
Everything is publishing.
一切都在发布。
When I first wrote the book, I had just finished my two-year trips from Ireland across Middle East and Iran, Afghanistan, and I arrived to Southeast Asia.
当我第一次写这本书时，我刚刚结束了为期两年的旅行，从爱尔兰穿越中东、伊朗、阿富汗，到达东南亚。
I took a rest there.
我在那里休息了一下。
I made a pause and started writing the book.
我停顿了一下，开始写这本书。
In the first format, it was 100 pages, photocopied book.
第一种格式是 100 页的影印书。
And I would walk around the streets of Bangkok and the beaches in Thailand to sell it to other travelers.
我会走遍曼谷的街道和泰国的海滩，把它卖给其他旅行者。
When I came back to Argentina, I decided to try to get it published properly.
当我回到阿根廷时，我决定尝试让它正确出版。
The first thing I did was expand the book to 200 pages, go to a printing place, so it wasn’t photocopied anymore.
我做的第一件事就是把书扩充到200页，去印刷厂，这样就不再复印了。
But I was still self-publishing and selling it in person.
但我仍然自行出版并亲自出售。
Then over time I was invited to a book fair with my own self-published books.
然后随着时间的推移，我被邀请参加一个书展，带着我自己出版的书。
I managed to sell a lot of books because there was a bookstore that had a lovely little space.
我成功地卖出了很多书，因为有一家书店，空间很小。
I was with my backpack and a big world map showing my route.
我带着背包和一张显示我的路线的大世界地图。
It was very curious.
很好奇。
I had my Afghan hat with me.
我带着阿富汗帽子。
So the first thing people would see when I entered the book fair was this weird guy with an Afghan hat and a backpack, selling these little books.
所以当我进入书展时，人们首先看到的就是这个戴着阿富汗帽子、背着背包的奇怪家伙，在卖这些小书。
It was a success.
这是成功的。
Then the big publishing houses from Buenos Aires noticed that.
然后布宜诺斯艾利斯的大型出版社注意到了这一点。
“OK, which was the best-selling book in Mar del Plata’s book fair?
“好吧，马德普拉塔书展上最畅销的书是哪一本？
What’s this, Hitchhiking in the Axis of Evil?
这是什么，在邪恶轴心搭便车？
Who is this guy?
这家伙是谁？
He doesn’t even have a publisher.”
他甚至没有出版商。”
Then I was published by Del Nuevo Extremo and RBI publishing houses in Argentina and Spain, respectively.
然后我分别由阿根廷和西班牙的 Del Nuevo Extremo 和 RBI 出版社出版。
I stayed with them like seven years.
我和他们一起待了七年。
But during those seven years, social media really changed the way the artists can promote their products.
但在那七年里，社交媒体确实改变了艺术家推广产品的方式。
In Argentina at least, I decided, even though I had contracts to publish my second book, which was Caminos Invisibles or Invisible Routes — even though I had offers, Laura and I decided to just self-publish it because people could directly ask the book from us.
至少在阿根廷，我决定，尽管我有出版第二本书的合同，即《看不见的卡米诺斯或看不见的路线》——尽管我收到了邀请，劳拉和我决定自行出版它，因为人们可以直接向我们索要这本书。
We didn’t need a middleman.
我们不需要中间人。
That is effective for a middle-size market like Argentina, but probably wouldn’t be the case in the US or the UK or countries which are not my stronghold for followers.
这对于像阿根廷这样的中等规模市场来说是有效的，但在美国、英国或不是我的追随者大本营的国家可能不会出现这种情况。
That really changed a lot.
这确实改变了很多。
The decision of switching from published books with a large publishing house to self-publishing through social media afforded us to have a better standard of living.
从大型出版社出版书籍转向通过社交媒体自行出版的决定使我们拥有了更好的生活水平。
That was definitely the case.
情况确实如此。
But now it’s again the turn of finding a partner in a publishing house if we want to expand to new markets.
但如果我们想拓展新市场，现在又到了在出版社寻找合作伙伴的时候了。
Could you imagine doing a big long trip through the United States and maybe Canada?
您能想象一次穿越美国甚至加拿大的长途旅行吗？
Or is that logistically too difficult and too expensive?
或者这在后勤上是否太困难且太昂贵？
Because hitchhiking was much more popular here, say, in the 1960s than it is today.
因为在 20 世纪 60 年代，搭便车在这里比现在更受欢迎。
No, I think it would definitely be possible.
不，我认为这绝对是可能的。
People tend to think — which is normal, of course — that the more expensive a country, then the most difficult or expensive it will be to travel there.
人们倾向于认为“当然，这很正常”，一个国家的物价越高，去那里旅行就越困难或最昂贵。
The interesting thing is that, for example, in a country like Norway, which is probably more expensive than the US .
有趣的是，例如在挪威这样的国家，它可能比美国更贵。
.
。
.
。
Sure, much more.
当然，还有更多。
Yeah, there I have my record.
是的，我有我的记录。
I only spent $30 in 22 days.
22天内我只花了30美元。
I think also in this kind of countries, first of all, food in supermarkets is never expensive.
我认为在这种国家，首先，超市里的食物从来都不贵。
Normally, you always receive help from people because they have hitchhiked before, or they have heard about it.
通常情况下，你总是会得到人们的帮助，因为他们以前搭过便车，或者听说过搭便车。
It’s not even necessarily related with the fact that they still hitchhike or not, because no one else is hitchhiking nowadays in Norway or even here, even though here it’s part of the culture that’s in the ’60s.
这甚至与他们是否仍然搭便车这一事实没有必然联系，因为现在在挪威甚至在这里都没有人搭便车，尽管搭便车是这里 60 年代文化的一部分。
I think it would definitely be doable.
我认为这绝对是可行的。
After you leave here — Arlington, Virginia — what is your very next country other than Argentina?
离开这里后 — 弗吉尼亚州阿灵顿 — 除了阿根廷之外，你的下一个国家是哪个？
My next planned trip you mean?
你是说我的下一次计划旅行吗？
Yes.
是的。
I think in the long .
我认为从长远来看。
.
。
.
。
not long term, but next year, we want to go back to Africa because we really loved Africa.
不是长期的，但明年，我们想回到非洲，因为我们真的很喜欢非洲。
Where?
在哪里？
Tanzania.
坦桑尼亚。
Yes.
是的。
That was the place.
就是那个地方。
But I think now there’s a trip I would like to do to a place called Kaliningrad, which is a Russian exclave in mainland Europe.
但我想现在我想去一个叫加里宁格勒的地方旅行，那是俄罗斯在欧洲大陆的飞地。
Königsberg, it used to be called in German.
柯尼斯堡（Königsberg），过去在德语中被称为柯尼斯堡（Königsberg）。
Königsberg, yeah.
柯尼斯堡，是的。
That’s where Immanuel Kant lived, yes.
是的，那是伊曼努尔·康德居住的地方。
That’s where Kant lived, exactly.
这正是康德居住的地方。
I’ve always wanted to go there.
我一直想去那里。
Exactly.
确切地。
It’s on my list.
它在我的清单上。
What I want to do is, actually, to get 19th-century maps in order to go from Berlin to Königsberg — or Kaliningrad — following the road of old towns which used to have German names but now they have Lithuanian, Polish, or Russian names, and to see what is left from that time.
其实我想做的是，拿到19世纪的地图，从柏林到柯尼斯堡——或者加里宁格勒——沿着那些以前有德国名字、现在有立陶宛语、波兰语或俄罗斯语名字的老城镇的道路，看看那时还剩下什么。
I have seen there are ruined palaces and ruined Lutheran churches.
我看到那里有毁坏的宫殿和毁坏的路德教堂。
I want to check that out, and I want to play with this thing of traveling with a 19th-century map.
我想看看这个，我想尝试一下带着 19 世纪地图旅行的事情。
That sounds wonderful.
听起来很棒。
My very last question, totally obscure.
我的最后一个问题，完全晦涩难懂。
COWEN: But tell me, why should I visit Suriname?
COWEN：但是请告诉我，我为什么要访问苏里南？
I’ve long been curious, but what exactly is there that I would find of interest?
我一直很好奇，但我到底对什么感兴趣？
Suriname, you’ve been there, I haven’t.
苏里南，你去过那里，我没有。
I said at the beginning, I envy you, and that’s one reason why.
我一开始就说过，我羡慕你，这就是原因之一。
OK, Suriname is a must, I think, for any person who wants to explore a present destination.
好吧，我认为，对于任何想要探索当前目的地的人来说，苏里南是必须的。
I mean, if you want to explore a place .
我的意思是，如果你想探索一个地方。
.
。
.
。
in this world, everything is explored.
在这个世界上，一切都在探索之中。
But Suriname is a place .
但苏里南是一个地方。
.
。
.
。
first of all, people in South America don’t even know anything about Suriname.
首先，南美洲的人们对苏里南一无所知。
The amazing thing is they are probably the only Hindu country in South America.
令人惊奇的是他们可能是南美洲唯一的印度教国家。
A huge percentage of their population descends from people who were brought as a cheap labor force from either Java by the Dutch or by the British from India.
他们的人口中有很大一部分是荷兰人或英国人从印度作为廉价劳动力从爪哇带来的人的后裔。
The people from India — they brought their religion with them.
来自印度的人们——他们带来了他们的宗教信仰。
Some of them are Muslim, but some of them are also Hindu.
他们中有些人是穆斯林，但有些人也是印度教徒。
You are traveling on the main road in Suriname and you would see a 20-foot-tall statue of Shiva.
你行驶在苏里南的主干道上，你会看到一座20英尺高的湿婆雕像。
Then you will ride to a town, and people are having Javanese food.
然后你会骑车到一个小镇，人们正在吃爪哇食物。
It’s definitely a melting pot of places that you wouldn’t expect in South America.
这绝对是一个你在南美洲意想不到的地方的大熔炉。
Again, I’m with Juan Pablo Villarino or Juan Pablo “Viyarino” .
再说一遍，我和胡安·巴勃罗·维拉里诺或胡安·巴勃罗“Viyarino”在一起。
He’s the author of four books, most notably Hitchhiking in the Axis of Evil.
他是四本书的作者，其中最著名的是《邪恶轴心搭便车》。
Juan Pablo, thank you very much.
胡安·巴勃罗，非常感谢你。
We all look forward to much more from you in the future.
我们都期待您在未来做出更多贡献。
Thanks a lot, Tyler, for the opportunity.
非常感谢泰勒给我这个机会。
Last word for the audience: every dream is given to you with the power to make it come true, so go for it.
最后对观众说的话：每一个梦想都赋予你实现它的力量，所以去吧。