Jordan Peterson on Mythology, Fame, and Reading People (Ep. 60 - Live)
Thank you, Jordan.
谢谢你，乔丹。
I’d like to give the audience that kind of rapid-fire overview of your thought and also your life as a human being.
我想向观众快速概述您的思想以及您作为一个人的生活。
I’m looking forward to hearing that.
我很期待听到这个消息。
Let me start with a very lateral question.
让我从一个非常横向的问题开始。
Why do you collect old Communist memorabilia and propaganda?
你为什么收集旧的共产主义纪念品和宣传品？
Well, part of it is dark comedy.
嗯，其中一部分是黑色喜剧。
Really, I spent quite a bit of time on eBay for a number of years.
确实，我在 eBay 上花了很多年的时间。
And I had read this article by a psychologist named James Pennebaker.
我读过心理学家詹姆斯·彭尼贝克（James Pennebaker）写的这篇文章。
He said that the past turned into history at 15 years.
他说，15年后，过去就变成了历史。
That’s when you start to see people commemorate events in the past.
那时你开始看到人们纪念过去的事件。
At that point, it was 2004, and I thought, “Oh, that’s interesting.
那时是 2004 年，我想，“哦，这很有趣。
It’s 15 years since the Soviet Union collapsed.
苏联解体已经15年了。
Maybe I can go online and see what historical memorabilia is left over.”
也许我可以上网看看还剩下什么历史纪念品。”
So I went on eBay, looking up Soviet artifacts, and I thought that was so comical because there isn’t anything more capitalistic than eBay, right?
所以我在 eBay 上查找苏联文物，我觉得这太滑稽了，因为没有什么比 eBay 更资本主义了，对吧？
Seriously, that was completely unrestrained capitalism.
说真的，那是完全不受约束的资本主义。
And then all this Soviet-era stuff was for sale.
然后所有这些苏联时代的东西都被出售了。
I thought it was absolutely comical that I could buy paintings of Karl Marx discounted on the world’s most intense capitalist platform.
我认为我能在世界上最激烈的资本主义平台上打折购买卡尔·马克思的画作，这绝对是滑稽的。
And I’m really interested in the relationship between art and propaganda.
我对艺术和宣传之间的关系非常感兴趣。
So I bought all these pieces.
所以我买了所有这些作品。
Some of them are of very high quality because the Russians kept the intense training characteristic of late-19th-century European art academies open throughout the entire 20th century.
其中一些质量非常高，因为俄罗斯人在整个 20 世纪保持了 19 世纪末欧洲艺术学院的高强度训练特征。
So they had very high-quality artists dedicated to producing Soviet realist propaganda.
因此，他们有非常高素质的艺术家致力于制作苏联现实主义宣传品。
Some of it is intensely propagandistic, and I’m interested in that because I’m interested in propaganda.
其中一些是强烈的宣传性的，我对此很感兴趣，因为我对宣传感兴趣。
And some of it is actually quite high quality from a purely artistic perspective.
从纯粹的艺术角度来看，其中一些实际上是相当高品质的。
So it was interesting to surround myself with these works that were battlegrounds between art and propaganda.
因此，让自己置身于这些艺术与宣传之间的战场的作品中是很有趣的。
What’s the main thing you learned over the years, living with those works, viewing the propaganda, thinking about it every day, every night?
这些年来，与这些作品一起生活，观看宣传，日日夜夜思考，你学到的主要东西是什么？
Art wins.
艺术获胜。
Art wins over propaganda.
艺术战胜了宣传。
Why?
为什么？
All the time, yeah.
一直以来，是的。
Nothing wins over art.
没有什么能胜过艺术。
Nothing is powerful enough to stand in the way of art.
没有什么力量足以阻挡艺术的道路。
Whatever artistic merit the canvases have stays as a permanent part of them, and the propagandistic aspect disappears as the context — the political context — disappears.
无论这些画布有什么艺术价值，它都会成为它们永久的一部分，而随着背景——“政治背景”——的消失，宣传方面也消失了。
All that’s left, in some sense, is the pure art and the craftsmanship.
从某种意义上说，剩下的就是纯粹的艺术和工艺。
At some point, some of the paintings I have are just very realistic renditions of working-class people.
在某些时候，我的一些画作只是对工人阶级的非常现实的再现。
All the propaganda is disappearing, so it’s very interesting to have those artifacts around.
所有的宣传都在消失，所以保留这些文物非常有趣。
It was also a reminder to me.
这对我来说也是一个提醒。
I have studied totalitarianism for a very long time, and you want to be .
我研究极权主义很长时间了，你也想成为这样的人。
.
。
.
。
See, I’ve always tried to read history as a perpetrator rather than as a hero or a victim.
你看，我一直试图以肇事者的身份而不是英雄或受害者的身份来解读历史。
And I’m very interested in trying to understand why these ideas have such a grip on people.
我非常有兴趣尝试理解为什么这些想法对人们有如此大的影响力。
You have to allow them to exert that gripping force on you before you can understand it, not think, “Well, I would have been immune to that.” It’s like, “No, you wouldn’t have.
在你能够理解它之前，你必须允许他们对你施加这种控制力，而不是想：“好吧，我本来就不会受到这种影响。”就像是，“不，你不会的。
You wouldn’t have been immune at all.
你根本无法免疫。
And if you think that, then for sure, you wouldn’t have been immune.”
如果你这么认为，那么你肯定也无法幸免。”
Most of the classical liberals I know — they draw their inspiration from Milton Friedman or Friedrich A.
我认识的大多数古典自由主义者——他们从米尔顿·弗里德曼（Milton Friedman）或弗里德里希·A·弗里德里希（Friedrich A.
Hayek.
哈耶克。
The major influence on you seems to be Carl Jung.
对你影响最大的似乎是卡尔·荣格。
When you have Jungian foundations for classical liberalism, in what way — for you — does that make liberalism stronger?
当你拥有古典自由主义的荣格基础时，“对你来说”以什么方式让自由主义变得更强大？
Well, I am fundamentally a psychologist rather than a political theorist.
嗯，从根本上来说，我是一名心理学家，而不是一名政治理论家。
I’ve been very interested in how people build their models of the world.
我对人们如何构建世界模型非常感兴趣。
You look at the world through a framework.
你通过一个框架来看待世界。
You can’t help it because the world is unbelievably complicated.
你无能为力，因为世界复杂得令人难以置信。
It’s so complicated that, technically, you shouldn’t even be able to perceive it.
它是如此复杂，从技术上讲，你甚至不应该能够感知它。
Perception is an unbelievably deep mystery.
知觉是一个令人难以置信的深奥之谜。
So you interpose a very deep structure between you and the world, and that structure has — what would you call it?
所以你在你和世界之间插入了一个非常深层的结构，这个结构有 —— 你会怎么称呼它？
You can differentiate it into its subcomponents.
您可以将其区分为子组件。
And what appears to me to be at the base of that structure, conceptually, is something approximating a narrative.
在我看来，从概念上讲，这种结构的基础是某种近似于叙事的东西。
There’s various ways of looking at it.
有多种看待它的方法。
You can think about it as a shared game.
你可以把它想象成一个共享游戏。
But narrative, I think, is the best way of thinking about it.
但我认为，叙事是思考这个问题的最佳方式。
And I never came across anybody who had a deeper understanding of narrative than Carl Jung.
我从来没有遇到过比卡尔·荣格对叙事有更深刻理解的人。
So his work was unbelievably influential for me, partly because it was through Jung that I started to understand the metaphysics of the idea of the sovereignty of the individual, which I think is the great Western idea, that the fundamental perceptual — what would you say?
因此，他的作品对我产生了难以置信的影响，部分原因是通过荣格，我开始理解个人主权观念的形而上学，我认为这是伟大的西方观念，即基本的知觉——你会怎么说？
— that the most appropriate perceptual framework for a social interaction at the familial and the community level is to view each individual as unique and sovereign.
——家庭和社区层面的社会互动最合适的感知框架是将每个人视为独特的和主权的。
When I wrote my first book, which was Maps of Meaning, I was very curious about whether the tension between the communist viewpoint and the Western viewpoint, roughly speaking, was merely a matter of opinion, which is something you might think if you were a moral relativist, or perhaps even a postmodernist — that there’s a multitude of ways that you can set up a society and they’re each equally, arbitrarily valuable.
当我写我的第一本书《意义地图》时，我很好奇共产主义观点和西方观点之间的紧张关系，粗略地说，是否仅仅是一个观点问题，如果你是一个道德相对主义者，甚至可能是一个后现代主义者，你可能会这么想——你可以有多种方式来建立一个社会，而且每种方式都具有同等的、任意的价值。
And there’s an infinite set of methods by which a society might be generated.
社会的产生有无数种方法。
That’s one hypothesis.
这是一个假设。
As I got deeper and deeper into the analysis of both systems, I thought, “No, that’s just wrong.” There’s some things that the West got.
随着我对这两个系统的分析越来越深入，我想，“不，那是错误的。”有些东西是西方人得到的。
What we designed in the West is a playable game, technically speaking, and what was designed by the communists was a nonplayable game.
我们西方设计的东西，从技术上来说，是可玩的游戏，而共产党人设计的，是不可玩的游戏。
It was destined to degenerate across time because it couldn’t function in a real-world environment.
随着时间的推移，它注定会退化，因为它无法在现实环境中发挥作用。
It was an abstraction that couldn’t maintain itself if it was iterated.
这是一种抽象，如果迭代就无法维持自身。
You’ve done clinical work with patients for many years, right?
您从事患者临床工作很多年了，对吗？
From that clinical work, what have you learned about politics and also myth?
从那次临床工作中，您对政治和神话学到了什么？
This is the shaping of Jordan Peterson narrative we’re building here, right?
这就是我们在这里构建的乔丹·彼得森叙事的塑造，对吧？
What have I learned about politics and myth?
我从政治和神话中学到了什么？
Hmmm.
嗯。
See, my interest never was precisely political.
看，我的兴趣从来都不是政治性的。
But it must have shaped how you now understand politics.
但它一定塑造了你现在理解政治的方式。
It was such a formative experience in your career.
这对你的职业生涯来说是一次非常重要的经历。
Well, it shaped how I understand responsibility, I would say.
嗯，我想说，它塑造了我对责任的理解。
I was trained as a behavioral psychologist, although I have familiarized myself with all sorts of other schools of psychotherapeutic endeavor, and I’ve used techniques from other schools substantially when that was necessary.
我接受过行为心理学家的培训，尽管我已经熟悉了各种其他心理治疗学派的努力，并且在必要时我也大量使用了其他学派的技术。
But one of the things you do as a behavioral psychologist is you take problems, and you break them down into their smallest solvable units.
但作为一名行为心理学家，你要做的一件事就是解决问题，并将它们分解成最小的可解决单元。
That’s actually your job.
这实际上是你的工作。
It’s like, okay, you come to me and you have a problem.
就像，好吧，你来找我，但你有问题。
Well, we don’t know what the problem is, so the first thing we’re going to do is have a very long discussion about what the problem might be.
好吧，我们不知道问题是什么，所以我们要做的第一件事就是就问题可能是什么进行长时间的讨论。
And we’ll go through all sorts of blind alleys, but hopefully, we’ll end up with a description of what it is that’s wrong.
我们会经历各种各样的死胡同，但希望我们最终能够描述出问题所在。
Then we’ll have another discussion about how it is that it could conceivably be set right.
然后我们将再次讨论如何才能正确设置它。
And then we’ll have another discussion about how to strategize with regards to implementing how it might be set right at a level of resolution that’s sufficiently differentiated, so that you have a very high probability of succeeding when you implement it.
然后我们将再次讨论如何制定实施策略，如何在足够差异化的分辨率水平上正确设置，以便在实施时成功的可能性非常高。
I think that that’s useful with regards to understanding political problems.
我认为这对于理解政治问题很有用。
The first question is, “Well, what’s the problem?” And the second is, “Well, what’s the solution?” It’s a technique.
第一个问题是：“嗯，有什么问题吗？”第二个问题是，“那么，解决方案是什么？”这是一种技术。
So I suppose what’s happened to me from participating, from doing so much therapy is that I’ve learned how to take complex problems and decompose them down into solvable processes.
所以我想，通过参与、进行如此多的治疗，我学会了如何处理复杂的问题并将其分解为可解决的过程。
In your talks and writings, you’ve explored many avenues of personality psychology.
在您的演讲和著作中，您探索了人格心理学的许多途径。
It feels to me, as an outside observer, that our politics is much higher in neuroticism than it was five or ten years ago.
作为一个局外人，我觉得我们的政治比五年前或十年前更加神经质。
Do you agree?
你同意？
And if so, why has this happened?
如果是这样，为什么会发生这种情况？
I think partly it’s happened because there’s an insistence that it must be that way.
我认为这种情况发生的部分原因是人们坚持认为事情必须如此。
Many of you are probably familiar with Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianoff’s book, The Coddling of the American Mind.
你们中的许多人可能熟悉乔纳森·海特和格雷格·卢基安诺夫的书《美国心灵的溺爱》。
One of the points that they make, which shouldn’t have been up to them to make, was that if you set out to design a conceptual system to make weak and timid people who can’t operate in the world, you couldn’t do a better job than to create what constitutes the safe-space culture that currently permeates university campuses.
他们提出的一个不应该由他们提出的观点是，如果你着手设计一个概念系统来培养那些无法在世界上运作的软弱和胆怯的人，那么你最好的工作就是创造目前渗透到大学校园的安全空间文化。
They do absolutely everything wrong from a psychological perspective because the fundamental rule — if you’re a psychologist who’s interested in increasing resilience — is that you help people identify what they’re afraid of and what they would like to avoid that’s standing in the way of their movement forward.
从心理学的角度来看，他们所做的一切绝对都是错误的，因为基本规则——“如果你是一位对增强复原力感兴趣的心理学家”——就是帮助人们识别他们害怕的东西以及他们想要避免的东西，这些东西阻碍了他们前进的道路。
Then you design techniques to help them voluntarily confront that and learn how to withstand it or to cope with it.
然后你设计一些技巧来帮助他们自愿面对它，并学习如何承受或应对它。
That’s standard exposure therapy.
这是标准的暴露疗法。
It’s the bedrock of virtually every therapeutic system — that and getting your story straight, let’s say.
它几乎是每个治疗系统的基石——并且可以说得更清楚。
Well, that’s it.
嗯，就是这样。
Those are the two most important elements of any psychotherapeutic process.
这是任何心理治疗过程中最重要的两个要素。
So when you insist that the right way to view the world is victim versus victimizer, and then you coddle people into exaggeration of their own negative, emotion-centered pathology, you’re going to ensure that the political structure becomes more and more neurotic.
因此，当你坚持认为看待世界的正确方式是受害者与加害者之间的对立，然后你溺爱人们夸大他们自己消极的、以情感为中心的病态时，你就会确保政治结构变得越来越神经质。
If you’re aiming at something and you’re moving rapidly towards it, you’re likely to hit it.
如果你瞄准某件事并且快速朝它移动，你很可能会击中它。
And that’s exactly what’s happening on the campuses.
这正是校园里正在发生的事情。
How have your own views changed since you were 30?
30岁以来，你的观点发生了怎样的变化？
Political views, view of the world, metaphysical view.
政治观点、世界观、形而上学观点。
The nature of reality.
现实的本质。
Well, I think the primary transformation is my ever-expanding knowledge of exactly how much I don’t know about everything, and even how many layers there are underneath the things that I know something about.
嗯，我认为主要的转变是我不断扩大的知识，知道我对所有事情到底有多少不了解，甚至在我所知道的事情下面还有多少层。
I’ve become almost overwhelmed with the chronic knowledge of how little we really understand the structure of the world.
我几乎不知所措，因为我们对世界结构的了解是多么的少。
That’s been an unfolding revelation in some sense.
从某种意义上说，这是一个正在展开的启示。
I would say that’s accelerated to a substantial degree in the last five years, but it was certainly there before that.
我想说，在过去的五年里，这种情况已经大大加速了，但在那之前肯定已经存在了。
Let’s say I’m a secular thinker, and you’re trying to explain the value of the book of Exodus to me.
假设我是一个世俗思想家，而你试图向我解释《出埃及记》这本书的价值。
Yeah.
是的。
Because some of your most successful talks have been about the Hebrew Bible.
因为你最成功的一些演讲都是关于希伯来圣经的。
Yeah.
是的。
Where would you start using the book of Exodus to explain the predicament of the modern world?
你会从哪里开始使用出埃及记来解释现代世界的困境？
Well, the book of Exodus, I would say, is a story about many things.
嗯，我想说，出埃及记是一个关于很多事情的故事。
It’s a story about social and psychological transformation.
这是一个关于社会和心理转变的故事。
I would start by reading it primarily psychologically, which is reasonable if you think about it as a spiritual story.
我首先会主要从心理角度来阅读它，如果你将其视为一个精神故事，这是合理的。
There’s not much difference between spirit and psyche.
精神和心灵之间没有太大区别。
You mean transformation of Moses as a leader?
你是指摩西作为领袖的转变吗？
No, no. I mean that the entire story is a metaphor for psychological transformation.
不，不。我的意思是整个故事都是心理转变的隐喻。
The story is basically the movement from a too tyrannical state of being symbolized by stone, essentially, because the Egyptian state is essentially symbolized by stone in Exodus, and Moses is a master of water, and water is something that flows and isn’t static, unlike stone, which is rigid and has the advantage, let’s say, of permanency along with those disadvantages.
这个故事基本上是从一个以石头为象征的过于专制的国家开始的运动，本质上，因为埃及国家在《出埃及记》中基本上是以石头为象征的，而摩西是水的大师，而水是流动的而不是静止的，不像石头，石头是刚性的，具有永久性的优点和缺点。
But what you see in the book of Exodus is something that’s very akin to a Piagetian stage transition.
但你在出埃及记中看到的东西非常类似于皮亚杰的阶段过渡。
Piaget’s idea — he was a great developmental psychologist — was that people organize their perceptions into structures that have a certain amount of internal coherence.
皮亚杰的想法——“他是一位伟大的发展心理学家”——是人们将他们的感知组织成具有一定内部连贯性的结构。
You have a structure that’s internally coherent, and it accounts for a set of phenomena in the world.
你有一个内部连贯的结构，它解释了世界上的一系列现象。
But then there are phenomena that don’t fit into the structure, and they aggregate, and now and then there’s a process of punctuated equilibrium.
但也有一些现象不符合这个结构，它们聚集在一起，时不时地就会出现一个间断平衡的过程。
Your old theory is no longer sufficient to account, in a practical way, for the array of phenomena that you’re now confronted with.
你的旧理论不再足以以实际的方式解释你现在面临的一系列现象。
As a consequence, there’s a dissolution of the previous system, and then a state of uncertainty and chaos, and then a reconstruction.
结果，之前的体系解体，然后是不确定和混乱的状态，然后是重建。
That’s exactly what happens in the book of Exodus.
这正是出埃及记中所发生的事情。
You move from a tyranny.
你摆脱了暴政。
It’s brilliant just on the surface, and it’s brilliant in the depths, but just on the surface it’s brilliant.
光是表面光鲜亮丽，内在也光彩夺目，只是表面光鲜亮丽。
If you’re in a state that’s too tyrannical, you need to escape from it, and that sounds all well and good, that you should escape from the tyrannical conditions that hold you back.
如果你处于一个太专制的状态，你需要逃离它，这听起来很好，你应该逃离那些阻碍你的专制条件。
That’s fine.
没关系。
So do you escape from the tyrannical conditions and enter the promised land?
那么你是否逃离了残酷的环境并进入了应许之地呢？
No, you end up in the desert for 40 years.
不，你最终会在沙漠里度过 40 年。
And it’s a mystery, practically speaking, why it took Moses 40 years to wander through the desert because it wasn’t that big a desert.
事实上，这也是一个谜，为什么摩西花了 40 年的时间才穿越沙漠，因为那片沙漠并没有那么大。
But if you’ve ever popped out of a system that was maybe somewhat tyrannical but that provided you with structure, you might think long and hard about the fact that you can spend 40 years in the desert.
但如果你曾经脱离过一个可能有些专制但为你提供了结构的系统，你可能会认真思考你可以在沙漠中度过 40 年的事实。
If you have a bad marriage, or if you have a bad job for that matter, and that comes to an end, that doesn’t mean that you’re immediately where you want to be.
如果你有一段糟糕的婚姻，或者你有一份糟糕的工作，而这些都结束了，那并不意味着你会立即达到你想要的状态。
You may certainly end up pining for the good old days when the tyrannical structure that you once inhabited gave your life structure and meaning.
你最终可能会怀念过去的美好时光，那时你曾经居住的专制结构赋予了你生活的结构和意义。
So do you escape from the tyrannical conditions and enter the promised land?
那么你是否逃离了残酷的环境并进入了应许之地呢？
No, you end up in the desert for 40 years.
不，你最终会在沙漠里度过 40 年。
And it’s a mystery, practically speaking, why it took Moses 40 years to wander through the desert because it wasn’t that big a desert.
事实上，这也是一个谜，为什么摩西花了 40 年的时间才穿越沙漠，因为那片沙漠并没有那么大。
But if you’ve ever popped out of a system that was maybe somewhat tyrannical but that provided you with structure, you might think long and hard about the fact that you can spend 40 years in the desert.
但如果你曾经脱离过一个可能有些专制但为你提供了结构的系统，你可能会认真思考你可以在沙漠中度过 40 年的事实。
You see this in the broad political scale.
你可以在广泛的政治层面上看到这一点。
There’s tremendous — what do you call that pining for the past?
有巨大的 —— 你管什么叫对过去的怀念？
What’s the word for that?
这个词是什么？
Nostalgia.
怀旧之情。
Nostalgia for the former Soviet Union in Russia.
俄罗斯对前苏联的怀念。
You see that in Eastern Europe as well.
在东欧你也可以看到这一点。
“Well, the good old days were much better than what we have now.” It’s like, “Well, yeah, the tyranny had its advantages.” And now you’re cast out into horrible, horrible freedom.
“嗯，过去的美好时光比现在好多了。”就像，“嗯，是的，暴政有它的优势。”现在你被扔进了可怕的、可怕的自由之中。
And that is a desert through which you wander.
那是一片沙漠，你必须在其中徘徊。
And then the other thing you see that’s so lovely, in the book of Exodus — it’s so accurate — is that, what happens when you’re a fractious group of people who’ve been freed from the previous tyranny?
然后你在《出埃及记》中看到的另一件非常可爱的事情 ——“它是如此准确”—— 是，当你是一群从以前的暴政中解放出来的暴躁的人时，会发生什么？
And the answer is, well, you immediately turn to the worship of false idols.
答案是，好吧，你立即转向崇拜假偶像。
And that’s part of the fragmentation process that characterizes people who are no longer united by an overarching narrative.
这是分裂过程的一部分，其特征是人们不再被总体叙事所团结。
That’s the chaotic element, and of course, that’s happening in our society.
这就是混乱的因素，当然，这正在我们的社会中发生。
That would be reflected in the consequences that both Nietzsche and Dostoevsky prophesied when they talked about the death of God.
这反映在尼采和陀思妥耶夫斯基在谈论上帝之死时所预言的后果中。
The Quran has a take on the Exodus story, right?
《古兰经》对出埃及记的故事有看法，对吗？
What can we learn from comparing the Quranic take on Exodus and Moses to the take of the Hebrew Bible?
通过比较古兰经对出埃及记和摩西的看法与希伯来圣经的看法，我们可以学到什么？
I don’t know enough about the Quranic take to make any intelligent commentary on that.
我对《古兰经》的了解不够，无法对此做出任何明智的评论。
That’s one of the places where I’m staggeringly ignorant and hoping to do something about that over the next five or ten years.
这是我极其无知的地方之一，我希望在未来五年或十年内对此做点什么。
If you’re thinking about our current situation in terms of some sort of universal myth or archetypical story, what comes to mind from the history of mythology, 2019?
如果你从某种普遍神话或典型故事的角度思考我们目前的处境，2019 年的神话史你会想到什么？
Oh, I think the Exodus story is a good one for us.
哦，我认为出埃及记的故事对我们来说是一个很好的故事。
You think it’s a good one?
你认为这是一件好事吗？
Yeah, because we are definitely in a period of chaos.
是的，因为我们确实处于一个混乱的时期。
And a tremendous amount of that is a consequence of the fact that we keep upsetting our previous useful tyrannies with technological transformation.
其中很大一部分是我们通过技术变革不断推翻以前有用的暴政这一事实的结果。
One of the things I think — who knows if this is true, because things are changing so rapidly, I’m not sure that we are more polarized than we were five years ago — but I think that one of the things that’s happening is that the illusion of polarization is being driven by the death of the mainstream media because these new media forms have emerged: video killing television; podcast killing radio; the net, for written content, killing print journalism.
我认为的一件事是：“谁知道这是否属实，因为事情变化如此之快，我不确定我们是否比五年前更加两极分化”，但我认为正在发生的事情之一是，两极分化的幻觉是由主流媒体的消亡所驱动的，因为这些新的媒体形式已经出现：视频杀死了电视；播客杀电台；网络，用于书面内容，扼杀印刷新闻业。
That’s three massive sets of technological transformation.
这是三组大规模的技术变革。
As the mainstream media institutions disappear, they’re increasingly desperate for attention.
随着主流媒体机构的消失，它们越来越渴望获得关注。
And of course, they’re going to be because that is what happens when your system starts to come apart.
当然，它们会这样，因为当你的系统开始崩溃时就会发生这种情况。
So I think they’re concentrating on the extremes to a much greater degree than they were 10 years ago, and that all of that might be a secondary consequence of technological transformation.
所以我认为他们比十年前更加关注极端情况，而所有这些可能都是技术变革的次要结果。
That’s chaos.
那是混乱。
That’s only a tiny bit of the chaos that’s coming because we’re in a condition, now, where technological transformation is so rapid that we can’t even tell what the revolutionary transformations are.
这只是即将到来的混乱的一小部分，因为我们现在所处的情况是，技术变革如此之快，以至于我们甚至无法说出革命性的变革是什么。
I look at an app like Tinder, for example.
例如，我会查看 Tinder 之类的应用程序。
Tinder is that app where you can rate people and swipe them.
Tinder 是一款可以给人们评分并滑动的应用程序。
Tinder is an app that reduces the degree to which males are rejected in their attempt to find sexual gratification.
Tinder 是一款可以减少男性在寻求性满足时被拒绝的程度的应用程序。
That’s never happened in the history of mankind.
这在人类历史上从未发生过。
I’m dead serious about that.
我对此非常认真。
And it’s just one thing that happened.
这只是发生的一件事。
And people don’t even pay much attention to it.
人们甚至不太关注它。
But it’s an absolutely revolutionary technology.
但这绝对是一项革命性的技术。
And it’s one of God-only-knows-how-many revolutionary technologies.
这是天知道有多少革命性技术之一。
There’s so many revolutionary technologies being produced right now, you can’t even tell which ones pose the worst threat to civilization.
现在正在产生如此多的革命性技术，你甚至无法判断哪些技术对文明构成了最严重的威胁。
On marriage and fame
关于婚姻和名誉
Here’s a reader-request question.
这是一个读者请求的问题。
What is it like being married to you?
和你结婚是什么感觉？
Oh, it’s dreadful.
哦，太可怕了。
But you tour a lot, right?
但你经常巡演，对吧？
You give talks?
你发表演讲吗？
Yeah.
是的。
There can be a hall of 2,000 people.
大厅可容纳2000人。
Yeah.
是的。
It will sell out.
它会卖完的。
The tickets can go for, goodness, how much?
门票可以买，天哪，多少钱？
Yeah.
是的。
Scalp for $2,000.
剥头皮2000美元。
Yeah.
是的。
You’re married.
你结婚了。
What’s that like for your wife?
你的妻子是什么样的？
Well, I really like my wife.
嗯，我真的很喜欢我的妻子。
And so far, she seems to like me.
到目前为止，她似乎很喜欢我。
She’s been unbelievably helpful.
她的帮助令人难以置信。
She’s really good at touring, better at it than me.
她真的很擅长巡演，比我更擅长。
She really enjoys it.
她真的很喜欢。
She’s been an absolute rock through this last tumultuous two years.
在过去动荡的两年里，她绝对是一块磐石。
We were able to collaborate very carefully and negotiate very well with regards to the raising of our kids, which was unbelievably gratifying for both of us.
在抚养孩子的问题上，我们能够非常仔细地合作并进行很好的谈判，这对我们双方来说都是令人难以置信的欣慰。
She’s incredibly trustworthy, so we have a good relationship.
她非常值得信赖，所以我们的关系很好。
I think she has to put up with a lot because my life has always been strange, I would say.
我想她必须忍受很多，因为我的生活一直很奇怪，我想说。
First of all, she had to put up with the fact that I bought 300 pieces of Soviet-era art.
首先，她不得不忍受我买了300件苏联时代的艺术品。
People were calling her and saying, “What’s up with Jordan?
人们打电话给她说：“乔丹怎么了？
It’s like he’s bought 300 pieces of Soviet art.
就像他买了 300 件苏联艺术品一样。
There’s something that’s a bit off about that.” Which was definitely true, but she’s willing to take the risks and she trusts what I’m doing.
这件事有点不对劲。”这绝对是真的，但她愿意承担风险，并且相信我正在做的事情。
And I think I do what I can to listen to her, and to make sure that she gets what she needs and wants, and that we have a good vision together, a joint vision together.
我想我会尽我所能倾听她的意见，确保她得到她需要和想要的东西，并确保我们共同拥有美好的愿景，共同的愿景。
And we do have fun together, too.
我们也在一起玩得很开心。
So that’s a plus as well.
所以这也是一个优点。
The extreme celebrity of your last three or so years, how has it changed you?
过去三年左右的时间里，你的名声大噪，它给你带来了怎样的改变？
Oh, it’s made me way more careful.
哦，这让我更加小心了。
About what?
关于什么？
Everything.
一切。
Careful what you say?
说话小心点吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I’ve always been careful in what I said, but I’m way more attentive to what I say now than I was because, well, for about a year and a half, I was one slip away from disaster.
我一直对自己所说的话很谨慎，但我现在比以前更加注意自己所说的话，因为，嗯，在大约一年半的时间里，我离灾难只有一步之遥。
There were a perfectly large number of people who were combing through absolutely everything I ever said and recorded to find exactly that one slip.
有很多人正在仔细梳理我所说和记录的所有内容，以准确找到那一张纸条。
And it came close a couple of times, more than a couple of times.
有几次，甚至不止几次，它都接近了。
I’ve always watched what I said, but I really watch it now.
我一直都在看我说的话，但现在我真的在看。
And now also, when I’m in public, I’m very, very careful about how I conduct myself.
现在，当我在公共场合时，我对自己的行为举止非常非常小心。
So increased self-surveillance is probably the biggest difference.
因此，加强自我监控可能是最大的区别。
I’ve always been careful in what I said, but I’m way more attentive to what I say now than I was because, well, for about a year and a half, I was one slip away from disaster.
我一直对自己所说的话很谨慎，但我现在比以前更加注意自己所说的话，因为，嗯，在大约一年半的时间里，我离灾难只有一步之遥。
There were a perfectly large number of people who were combing through absolutely everything I ever said and recorded to find exactly that one slip.
有很多人正在仔细梳理我所说和记录的所有内容，以准确找到那一张纸条。
And it came close a couple of times, more than a couple of times.
有几次，甚至不止几次，它都接近了。
I’ve always watched what I said, but I really watch it now.
我一直都在看我说的话，但现在我真的在看。
On what the Intellectual Dark Web gets wrong
关于知识分子暗网的错误
Your peers in the Intellectual Dark Web — the best of them — what is it they’re wrong about?
你在知识暗网中的同行 ——“他们中最好的”—— 他们错在哪里？
Oh, they’re wrong about all sorts of things.
哦，他们在很多事情上都错了。
But at least they’re wrong in all sorts of interesting ways.
但至少他们在各种有趣的方面都错了。
I think Sam Harris, for example — I don’t think that he understands.
例如，我认为萨姆·哈里斯 —— 我认为他不明白。
I don’t think that he’s given sufficient credence to the role that religious thinking plays in human cognition.
我认为他没有充分相信宗教思维在人类认知中所扮演的角色。
I think that’s a huge mistake for someone who’s an evolutionary biologist because human religious thinking is a human universal.
我认为这对于进化生物学家来说是一个巨大的错误，因为人类的宗教思维是人类的普遍性。
It’s built into our biology.
它已融入我们的生物学之中。
It’s there for a reason.
它的存在是有原因的。
Although Sam is an evolutionary biologist, at least in principle, with regards to his thinking, he’s an Enlightenment rationalist when it comes to discussing the biology of religion, and that’s not acceptable.
尽管萨姆是一位进化生物学家，至少在原则上就他的思想而言，但在讨论宗教生物学时，他是一位启蒙理性主义者，这是不可接受的。
It’s the wrong time frame.
这是错误的时间范围。
You don’t criticize religious thinking over a time frame of 200 years.
你不会批评200年时间范围内的宗教思想。
You think about religious thinking over a time frame of 50,000 years, but probably over a far greater time span than that.
你会在五万年的时间范围内思考宗教思想，但可能会比这个时间跨度更长。
So if that’s what Sam Harris doesn’t get —
所以如果山姆·哈里斯不明白这一点——
Yeah.
是的。
If we turn to senior management of large American companies, as a class of people — and I know it’s hard to generalize — but what do you see them as just not getting?
如果我们转向美国大公司的高级管理层，作为一个阶层——我知道这很难一概而论——但你认为他们没有得到什么？
I would caution them not to underestimate the danger of their human resources departments.
我要提醒他们不要低估人力资源部门的危险。
Say more.
多说一点。
Yeah, well, because I see that the social justice etiology that’s destroyed a huge swath of academia is on the march in a major way through corporate America.
是的，好吧，因为我看到摧毁了大批学术界的社会正义病因学正在美国企业界大行其道。
And if the corporate people think they’re immune to it, they’ve got another think coming.
如果企业人士认为自己不会受到影响，那么他们就会有另一种想法。
It’s not like they’re any smarter than the universities.
他们并不比大学聪明。
And who gave the HR department so much power?
谁给HR部门这么大的权力？
How did that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
What myth did we follow that led us wrong?
我们遵循了什么错误的神话？
That’s a good question because they had virtually no power to begin with, right?
这是一个很好的问题，因为他们一开始几乎没有权力，对吗？
HR departments have always been underpowered, so to speak.
可以说，人力资源部门一直权力不足。
Sure, of course.
当然，当然。
Yeah, well, all of a sudden now, they’ve become ethics departments.
是的，突然之间，他们变成了道德部门。
And people who take to themselves the right to determine the propriety of ethical conduct end up with a lot more power — especially if you cede it to them — than you think.
那些拥有决定道德行为是否正当的权利的人最终会拥有比你想象的更多的权力——尤其是如果你把权力让给他们的话。
And that’s happening at a very rapid rate.
而且这种情况发生的速度非常快。
The doctrines that are driving hiring decisions, for example — any emphasis, for example, on equity, or equality of outcome — it’s unbelievably dangerous.
例如，推动招聘决策的信条——“任何对公平或结果平等的强调”——都是极其危险的。
You don’t just pull that in and signal to society that you’re now acting virtuously without bringing in the whole pathological ideology.
你不只是把它拉进来并向社会发出信号，表明你现在的行为是良性的，而不引入整个病态的意识形态。
And look out when you do, because it’s like, there are elements of it that are extraordinarily old, and that would be the resentful element in terms of patterns of thinking.
当你这样做时要小心，因为它的某些元素非常古老，这将是思维模式方面令人不满的元素。
But the collectivist ethos is very, very attractive to people, so you have to be very careful of it.
但集体主义精神对人们来说非常非常有吸引力，所以你必须非常小心。
Let’s say one is of the view that men and women are intrinsically different on average, but one still recognizes there’s a great deal of unjust discrimination against women.
假设有人认为男性和女性在本质上是不同的，但人们仍然认识到对女性存在大量不公正的歧视。
Yeah, I don’t recognize that.
是的，我不认识这一点。
I don’t think there is a great deal of unjust discrimination against women in comparison to the degree of unjust discrimination against men.
我认为，与对男性的不公正歧视程度相比，对女性的不公正歧视并不严重。
I think that hasn’t really been true for probably, well, at least 10 years.
我认为至少十年来情况并非如此。
And I know that’s not very long.
我知道那不会很长。
But then, I also don’t buy the argument that throughout history, men have, what would you say?
但是，我也不相信纵观历史，男人都有这样的论点，你觉得呢？
Singularly oppressed women?
女性受到特别压迫？
I think that’s absolute bloody nonsense.
我认为这绝对是胡说八道。
I think that nature has oppressed men and women terribly, and that men and women have struggled together valiantly to scrape out some possibility of security and happiness from that.
我认为大自然对男人和女人进行了可怕的压迫，而男人和女人一起勇敢地奋斗，以从中获得一些安全和幸福的可能性。
And mostly, they’ve done that cooperatively under conditions of privation that were so extreme that modern people like us, who are fortunate beyond belief, can’t even begin to fathom.
大多数情况下，他们是在极其贫困的条件下合作做到这一点的，这种条件是如此极端，以至于像我们这样幸运得令人难以置信的现代人甚至无法开始理解。
So I think all of that’s just complete bloody nonsense.
所以我认为所有这些都完全是胡说八道。
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who still make stupid decisions about how to promote based on, what would you call it?
这并不意味着没有人仍然在如何促销方面做出愚蠢的决定，你会称之为什么？
Qualities that have nothing to do with competence.
与能力无关的品质。
But that brings with it its own punishment.
但这也带来了自己的惩罚。
On America and Canada’s ability to assimilate immigrants
论美国和加拿大同化移民的能力
Do you think we are underrating or overrating America’s ability to assimilate its immigrants?
您认为我们低估还是高估了美国同化移民的能力？
And what would a Jungian perspective bring to bear on that question?
荣格观点对这个问题有何影响？
Oh, in the United States, I don’t really see that there is a problem with immigration policy.
噢,在美国,我真没看出移民政策有什么问题。
You guys haven’t had to face the same sort of, what?—crisis over the last five years that Europe has as a consequence of the trouble in the Middle East.
你们不必面对过去五年欧洲因中东问题而遭遇的同样的危机。
It isn’t obvious to me at all that you have an immigration problem in the United States.
对我来说，美国存在移民问题这一点并不明显。
Not as far as I can tell.
据我所知还没有。
We don’t really seem to have an immigration problem in Canada, although our immigration policy is somewhat looser than your immigration policy is.
我们在加拿大似乎并没有真正的移民问题，尽管我们的移民政策比你们的移民政策宽松一些。
In Toronto, for example — the city I’m from — I don’t know what the stats are.
以多伦多为例 —— 我来自的城市 —— 我不知道统计数据是什么。
I think 40 percent of the people who live in Toronto were foreign born, and the city is doing extraordinarily well.
我认为居住在多伦多的人中有 40% 是在国外出生的，这个城市的发展非常好。
I think it’s a better place than it was 20 years ago.
我认为现在比 20 年前更好了。
For some reason, the immigration policy in Canada seems to be working.
出于某种原因，加拿大的移民政策似乎正在发挥作用。
I think the same thing in the United States.
我认为在美国也是同样的情况。
That just doesn’t seem to me to be one of your problems.
在我看来，这并不是你的问题之一。
Isn’t obvious exactly what your problems are.
你的问题到底是什么并不明显。
I was at a dinner a while back with a variety of people who are interested in political issues.
不久前，我和许多对政治问题感兴趣的人一起参加了一次晚宴。
So the first thing I wanted to know is, “Well, okay, what’s your problems?” Nobody could agree on what the problems were.
所以我想知道的第一件事是，“好吧，你有什么问题吗？”没有人能够就问题所在达成一致。
Well, it’s hard to formulate a problem statement properly, right?
嗯，正确地提出问题陈述很难，对吧？
I mean, if you’re looking at what constitutes difficult cognitive work, answering a question is difficult, but formulating the question properly is even more difficult.
我的意思是，如果你正在研究什么构成了困难的认知工作，那么回答问题很困难，但正确地提出问题则更加困难。
I’ve been working with Democrats, at least to some degree, trying to formulate policy that would constitute an alternative to the idiot radical leftist ideology that dominates most of the discourse with regards to democratic politics and the politics of the Democrats.
我一直在与民主党人合作，至少在某种程度上，试图制定政策来替代白痴激进左翼意识形态，这种意识形态主导了有关民主政治和民主党政治的大部分话语。
And it’s not obvious what the rank order of the problems might be.
而且问题的排序顺序并不明显。
But I certainly wouldn’t say that immigration is top of the list.
但我当然不会说移民是首要问题。
Will anti-immigrant populism come to Canada at the national level?
反移民民粹主义会在国家层面席卷加拿大吗？
And if Canada has populism at the national rather than provincial level, what will that look like?
如果加拿大在国家层面而不是省层面存在民粹主义，那会是什么样子？
Well, it will come to Canada if we insist upon, what would you call it?
好吧，如果我们坚持的话，它会来到加拿大，你会叫它什么？
Gerrymandering our immigration rules.
不公正地划分我们的移民规则。
Our current prime minister has made a huge mistake by not putting down firm policies about what happens when you cross the border illegally.
我们现任总理犯了一个巨大的错误，没有对非法越境时的后果制定坚定的政策。
All that does is mess things up.
所做的一切只会把事情搞砸。
But there wasn’t anti-immigration sentiment in Canada before that, even though, as I said, there’s tremendous amount of immigration into Canada.
但在此之前加拿大并没有反移民情绪，尽管正如我所说，有大量移民进入加拿大。
There’s some destabilization.
有一些不稳定因素。
The real estate market in Vancouver has become completely overheated because of all the money essentially coming in from, first of all, Hong Kong, and then China.
温哥华的房地产市场已经完全过热，因为所有资金基本上首先来自香港，然后来自中国。
That’s more of a globalization problem than an immigrant problem.
这与其说是移民问题，不如说是全球化问题。
But I’m not worried about anti-immigration populism in Canada.
但我并不担心加拿大的反移民民粹主义。
I think the probability that’s going to become troublesome is extraordinarily low.
我认为出现麻烦的可能性非常低。
On exercise and depression
关于运动和抑郁
What is the role of exercise and weight lifting in your view of the good life?
在您心目中的美好生活中，运动和举重的作用是什么？
I didn’t expect that as a segue.
我没想到这是一个延续。
There is a manliness movement which stresses the importance of a certain kind of physical activity.
有一种男子气概运动强调某种体育活动的重要性。
Well, it is unbelievably important.
嗯，这非常重要。
One of the things I was interested in for the longest period of time was in the processes whereby you might maintain your cognitive function because — I don’t know if you knew this — but your fluid intelligence declines linearly from the age of 20 onward.
我最感兴趣的事情之一就是你可以维持认知功能的过程，因为 —— 我不知道你是否知道这一点 ——但是你的流体智力从 20 岁开始呈线性下降。
It’s a pretty vicious curve, and it hits zero, by the way, when you die.
这是一条相当恶性的曲线，顺便说一下，当你死时，它会达到零。
But your crystallized intelligence, which is a measure of how much wisdom you’ve accumulated, how much knowledge, rises.
但你的结晶智力（衡量你积累了多少智慧、多少知识）却在上升。
But it doesn’t rise as much as your fluid intelligence declines.
但它的上升幅度并没有你的流体智力下降那么多。
That’s a rather unhappy proposition, so I was interested for a long time in technologies that would enable people to maintain their cognitive function.
这是一个相当令人不快的提议，所以我长期以来对能够帮助人们维持认知功能的技术感兴趣。
There were those companies, like Lumosity, that promised that if you did their exercises, that you would maintain your cognitive function.
有些公司，比如 Lumosity，承诺如果你做他们的练习，你就会保持你的认知功能。
That’s wrong, by the way; that doesn’t work at all.
顺便说一下，这是错误的；那根本不起作用。
One of the things that we found in the literature on cognitive function is that if you practice cognitive exercises, and you get very good at them, there’s no crossover effect to other cognitive exercises.
我们在认知功能文献中发现的一件事是，如果你进行认知练习，并且你做得非常好，那么与其他认知练习就不会产生交叉效应。
We don’t know a set of cognitive exercises that you can do that make your cognitive function better generally.
我们不知道可以进行哪些认知练习来改善您的认知功能。
No one’s been able to find that.
没有人能够找到它。
It’s like the holy grail for intelligence researchers, and no one’s had any success with it.
这就像情报研究人员的圣杯，但没有人取得过任何成功。
But one thing we do know is that if you exercise — and weightlifting and aerobic exercise both work — that you can restore your cognitive abilities at age 50 to approximately what they were at age 30.
但我们确实知道的一件事是，如果你锻炼——并且举重和有氧运动都有效——你可以将 50 岁时的认知能力恢复到大约 30 岁时的水平。
That’s almost all a consequence of increased physical fitness.
这几乎都是身体素质增强的结果。
It’s because your brain is an incredibly demanding organ, so if your cardiovascular system is in good shape, then it works better.
这是因为你的大脑是一个要求极高的器官，所以如果你的心血管系统状况良好，那么它就会运作得更好。
It’s so cool that the best way to keep yourself smart is to keep yourself strong and fit.
这太酷了，让自己保持聪明的最好方法就是保持自己强壮和健康。
That’s really worth knowing because you don’t want that cognitive decline if you can stave it off.
这确实值得了解，因为如果你能避免认知能力下降，你就不希望出现这种情况。
You’ve spoken several times online about having had a tendency toward depression earlier in your life.
您在网上多次谈到自己早年有抑郁倾向。
Looking back, do you feel that gave you insight you wouldn’t have had otherwise?
回想起来，您是否觉得这给了您原本无法获得的洞察力？
Or it motivated you?
或者它激励了你？
Or how has it shaped the last three years?
或者说过去三年它是如何形成的？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
Well, a lot of it was mere impediment.
嗯，其中很多只是障碍。
I think that there’s lots of forms of depression, right?
我认为抑郁症有很多种形式，对吗？
It’s a catch-all condition, and we’ve known for a long time that there are endogenous forms, let’s say biological, and exogenous forms, and those would be crisis initiated.
这是一个包罗万象的条件，我们很长时间以来都知道存在内源性形式（比如说生物性）和外源性形式，而这些形式将引发危机。
And there’s some interplay between them.
它们之间存在一些相互作用。
There’s association to some degree, too, with seasonal affective disorder, another biological variant.
在某种程度上，它也与季节性情感障碍（另一种生物变异）有关。
And there is evidence that various forms of depression are associated with autoimmune dysfunction and inflammation.
有证据表明，各种形式的抑郁症与自身免疫功能障碍和炎症有关。
And it looks to me like the variant of depression that’s characterized my family is an autoimmune variant.
在我看来，我家人所特有的抑郁症变体是一种自身免疫变体。
And it’s had some extraordinarily detrimental effects, I would say, in some ways, because I’ve had periods in my life where I couldn’t do what I’m doing tonight.
我想说，在某种程度上，它产生了一些极其有害的影响，因为我生命中曾有过一段时期，我无法做今晚正在做的事情。
I couldn’t lay out a long string of associations, and then come back and continue making the point — made it very difficult to lecture.
我无法列出一长串联想，然后回来继续阐述观点——这使得授课变得非常困难。
I thought it made it very difficult for me to move physically, like I felt many times in my life that I was sort of embedded in molasses.
我认为这让我的身体移动变得非常困难，就像我一生中很多次感觉自己被嵌入糖蜜中一样。
I wouldn’t recommend that, by the way.
顺便说一句，我不建议这样做。
It’s very, very annoying and was very difficult to move.
这非常非常烦人，而且很难移动。
So that’s the downside, apart from the fact that it’s also very bitter, that kind of depression.
这就是它的缺点，除了它也非常痛苦，那种抑郁。
My daughter had a very serious autoimmune condition that destroyed two of her joints and affected 40 others.
我女儿患有非常严重的自身免疫性疾病，导致她的两个关节受损，并影响了另外 40 个关节。
She was in extreme pain as a consequence of that for many years, and also had this proclivity towards depression.
因此多年来她一直处于极度痛苦之中，并且也有抑郁的倾向。
Arthritis destroyed her hip when she was 16 and her ankle at about the same time, so she basically walked around on two broken legs for two years.
16 岁时，关节炎摧毁了她的臀部，几乎同时摧毁了她的脚踝，所以两年来她基本上都是靠着两条断腿行走。
It was unbelievably painful.
这是令人难以置信的痛苦。
I asked her one day — it’s like, “Hey, kid, here’s a choice: you can either have the arthritis or the depression.
有一天我问她——就像，“嘿，孩子，这里有一个选择：你要么患有关节炎，要么患有抑郁症。
Which would you pick?” And she said she’d pick the arthritis.
你会选哪个？她说她会选择关节炎。
Here’s another question from a reader: “Are you Christian?
这是一位读者提出的另一个问题：“你是基督徒吗？
And if it takes you a long time to answer that question, doesn’t it mean you are a postmodern Christian?”
如果你花了很长时间才回答这个问题，那不是意味着你是一个后现代基督徒吗？”
Well, no, I don’t think that you can do a pause analysis and come up with a definitive reason for that.
嗯，不，我不认为你可以进行暂停分析并找出明确的原因。
From a narrative perspective, let’s say, I don’t think that the West has formulated a higher value than the idea that the imitation of Christ is associated with divine value.
从叙事的角度来看，我认为西方没有提出比模仿基督与神圣价值相关的观念更高的价值。
I think that’s true.
我认为这是真的。
Now, what it means that that’s true is unbelievably complicated.
现在，这句话的真实含义极其复杂。
The thing about these questions is that you can embed an unbelievably complex idea in a very simple question, and then you can presume that the person that you’re talking to is going to produce a low-resolution answer to that question that actually suffices.
这些问题的问题在于，你可以在一个非常简单的问题中嵌入一个令人难以置信的复杂想法，然后你可以假设与你交谈的人会对这个问题给出一个实际上足够的低分辨率答案。
It’s not that straightforward when you’re thinking about things in a sophisticated manner.
当你以复杂的方式思考事情时，事情就没那么简单了。
If you asked me, am I a Catholic?
如果你问我，我是天主教徒吗？
No, not a Catholic.
不，不是天主教徒。
I’m not a Protestant in any straightforward manner either.
我也不是一个简单的新教徒。
I can answer that question, yes or no.
我可以回答这个问题，是或否。
The whole Christian thing .
整个基督教的事情。
.
。
.
。
My attitude — it’s something I told Sam Harris.
我的态度 ——这是我告诉萨姆·哈里斯的。
If you ask Sam if he’s religious, he’d say, “No.” I’d say, “Well, yes, you are.
如果你问山姆是否有宗教信仰，他会说：“不。”我会说：“嗯，是的，你是。
You just don’t know it.” And I actually believe that’s the case because I don’t think that you have the option of being not religious.
你只是不知道而已。”我实际上相信情况确实如此，因为我认为你没有选择不信教的权利。
You might think that you’re not religious.
你可能认为你不信教。
It just means that you don’t understand how your cognitive structures work very well.
这只是意味着你不明白你的认知结构是如何运作的。
So people say, “Well, are you Christian?” It’s like, well, I don’t know what you mean by that, and I don’t think you do either.
所以人们会问：“那么，你是基督徒吗？”就像，好吧，我不知道你的意思，我也不认为你知道。
I’m Christian in a way that’s — I don’t mean you personally.
我在某种程度上是基督徒， —— 我不是指你个人。
But I would say that I am Christian in the deepest sense that I can manage.
但我想说的是，在我能做到的最深刻的意义上，我是基督徒。
But I would also say that isn’t what people would typically expect.
但我也想说，这并不是人们通常所期望的。
The way that I think about that isn’t what people would typically expect when they’re answering that question.
我的想法并不是人们在回答这个问题时通常所期望的。
And mostly, the reason people ask me that damn question is because they want to put me in a box.
大多数情况下，人们问我这个该死的问题的原因是因为他们想把我放在一个盒子里。
Then they don’t have to think about what I’m saying.
那么他们就不必考虑我在说什么。
It’s like, I’m not hopping in that box for your bloody convenience.
就像，我不会为了你的方便而跳进那个盒子。
What do most other smart people not understand about talent search that you do, having done psychological research work and talent search work for decades?
大多数其他聪明人对你所做的人才搜寻工作有什么不理解的地方，因为你做了几十年的心理学研究工作和人才搜寻工作？
I don’t think that people want to understand the rule of raw general cognitive ability because it’s such a determining factor, and it’s hard for people on the right and the left to accept it.
我不认为人们想要理解原始一般认知能力的规则，因为它是一个决定性因素，左右两派的人都很难接受它。
People on the right think there’s a job for everyone if they just get off their lazy ass and do it, and people on the left think anybody can be trained to do anything.
右翼人士认为，只要摆脱懒惰并去做，每个人都有一份工作，而左翼人士则认为任何人都可以接受训练来做任何事情。
Both of those things are seriously wrong.
这两件事都是严重错误的。
One example that I often use is that the American military decided a couple of decades ago that it was illegal to induct anybody into the armed forces who had an IQ of less than 83.
我经常举的一个例子是，美国军方在几十年前决定，招募智商低于 83 的人入伍是违法的。
That’s an unbelievably important thing to know because that’s about 10 percent of the population.
这是一件非常重要的事情，因为这大约占总人口的 10%。
You’ve got to understand what this means.
你必须明白这意味着什么。
It means that a very large organization that’s desperately hungry for manpower, especially under circumstances of extreme crisis, is unwilling to accept 10 percent of the population because they have determined — after 100 years of doing absolutely everything they possibly could to the contrary — that there isn’t a single thing that they can train someone like that to do that’s not counterproductive.
这意味着，一个极度渴望人力资源的大型组织，尤其是在极端危机的情况下，不愿意接受 10% 的人口，因为他们已经确定————在 100 年来尽其所能地做相反的事情之后————他们训练这样的人来做任何一件事，没有一件事情不会适得其反。
Right.
正确的。
That’s terrible.
那太糟糕了。
It’s terrible.
太可怕了。
Because if the armed forces is approximately as complex as general society is — which I think is a reasonable supposition — it means that 10 percent of the population cannot find meaningful, productive, and engaging work in a modern society.
因为如果武装部队大约和一般社会一样复杂——“我认为这是一个合理的假设”——那就意味着 10% 的人口无法在现代社会中找到有意义的、富有成效的、有吸引力的工作。
And that proportion is probably, although not inevitably, expanding.
尽管并非不可避免，但这一比例可能正在扩大。
That’s a huge problem.
这是一个大问题。
That’s a huge underclass problem.
这是下层阶级的一个巨大问题。
It’s terrible.
太可怕了。
Because if the armed forces is approximately as complex as general society is — which I think is a reasonable supposition — it means that 10 percent of the population cannot find meaningful, productive, and engaging work in a modern society.
因为如果武装部队大约和一般社会一样复杂——“我认为这是一个合理的假设”——那就意味着 10% 的人口无法在现代社会中找到有意义的、富有成效的、有吸引力的工作。
And that proportion is probably, although not inevitably, expanding.
尽管并非不可避免，但这一比例可能正在扩大。
That’s a huge problem.
这是一个大问题。
That’s a huge underclass problem.
这是下层阶级的一个巨大问题。
People who hire also don’t understand the role of temperament, and how that can be assessed and measured, and how different temperaments really do predispose people to different areas of skill.
招聘人员也不了解气质的作用，也不了解如何评估和衡量气质，以及不同的气质如何真正使人们倾向于不同的技能领域。
J.
J。
R.
R。
R.
R。
Tolkien — do his works interest you?
托尔金 —你对他的作品感兴趣吗？
Yes, and so does his thinking.
是的，他的想法也是如此。
I just read his translation of Beowulf.
我刚刚读了他翻译的《贝奥武甫》。
I’m about two-thirds of the way through it.
我已经完成了大约三分之二。
And I know that he was very influenced by that document when he wrote The Lord of the Rings.
我知道他在写《指环王》时深受该文件的影响。
And The Lord of the Rings is obviously a quasi-religious document.
而《指环王》显然是一部准宗教文献。
Now Tolkien knew that perfectly well.
现在托尔金非常清楚这一点。
Sure.
当然。
But it’s one of those quasi-religious documents that’s so interesting.
但这是非常有趣的准宗教文件之一。
It’s like the Harry Potter series.
就像哈利波特系列一样。
It’s like, “Well, people aren’t religious.” It’s like, “Yeah, well, that’s why how many tens of millions of copies of the Harry Potter series sold?” That woman could pack stadiums of young people to listen to a read, and it was an absolute .
就像，“好吧，人们没有宗教信仰。”就像是，“是啊，这就是为什么《哈利·波特》系列卖出了几千万册？”那个女人可以挤满年轻人的体育场来听朗诵，这是绝对的。
.
。
.
。
She went from welfare mother to richer than the Queen.
她从福利母亲变成了比女王还富有的人。
You can’t ignore those sorts of things.
你不能忽视这些事情。
And she has an unbelievably accurate mythological imagination.
她拥有令人难以置信的准确神话想象力。
What should we learn from Tolkien?
我们应该向托尔金学习什么？
Go out and confront your dragons.
出去对抗你的龙。
What should we learn from Harry Potter?
我们应该从《哈利·波特》中学到什么？
Voluntary death and rebirth redeems.
自愿死亡和重生可以得到救赎。
On fixing universities
关于修复大学
If we’re going to fix higher education, what is actually the point we should start at?
如果我们要解决高等教育问题，我们实际上应该从哪里开始？
Simple question.
简单的问题。
I think a lot of it’s going to be a consequence of supplanting it.
我认为很多都是取代它的结果。
This is my hope, anyways.
无论如何，这是我的希望。
I’ve hired some people to start an online education project, which is a project likely doomed to failure because it’s an unbelievably complicated thing to do.
我雇了一些人来启动一个在线教育项目，这个项目很可能注定会失败，因为这是一件极其复杂的事情。
But we’re trying to figure out what it is that an education system should do and then make that accessible to the largest number of people possible.
但我们正在努力弄清楚教育系统应该做什么，然后让尽可能多的人能够参与其中。
I think the way to fix higher education is just to build a better system.
我认为解决高等教育问题的办法就是建立一个更好的体系。
I think that’s the way to fix most things.
我认为这是解决大多数问题的方法。
But certification seems to be a kind of natural monopoly.
但认证似乎是一种自然垄断。
A list of the best schools in 1920 looks remarkably like the best —
1920 年最好的学校名单看起来非常像最好的——
Yeah, but they’re doing everything they can to destroy their brand as rapidly as they possibly can.
是的，但他们正在尽一切努力以尽可能快的速度摧毁他们的品牌。
That’s going to have an effect over time, and it already is.
随着时间的推移，这将会产生影响，而且已经如此。
So in which year is Harvard not Harvard anymore?
那么哪一年哈佛不再是哈佛了？
2013.
2013年。
And what does that process look like?
这个过程是什么样的？
Gerrymandering the curriculum and the grading criteria.
不公正地划分课程和评分标准。
I mean, Harvard’s still Harvard because they have extremely stringent acceptance criteria.
我的意思是，哈佛仍然是哈佛，因为他们有极其严格的录取标准。
But doesn’t that keep all the rest in place?
但这不是让其余的一切都保持原样吗？
Employers are not turning away from Harvard grads, as far as I can tell.
据我所知，雇主并没有拒绝哈佛毕业生。
No, they’re not.
不，他们不是。
And look, you don’t want to sound the death knell for the universities.
看，你不想敲响大学的丧钟。
They’ve been thriving institutions for a thousand years, so they may have more life in them than might be expected.
一千年来，它们一直是蓬勃发展的机构，因此它们的生命力可能比预期的要长。
But they are contending with an unbelievably rapid technologically transforming world, and it isn’t clear to me that they’re doing a very good job of keeping up with that.
但他们正在应对一个令人难以置信的快速技术变革的世界，我不清楚他们是否在跟上这一点方面做得很好。
But I think, generally speaking, if you want to improve something, rather than criticize and change what already exists, it’s easier, especially now, it’s easier just to build a parallel system and see if you can put something in that’s a competitor.
但我认为，一般来说，如果你想改进一些东西，而不是批评和改变已经存在的东西，那就更容易了，尤其是现在，更容易的是建立一个并行系统，看看你是否可以把一些东西放进去，这是一个竞争对手。
The Khan people did that with the Khan Academy.
可汗人民通过可汗学院做到了这一点。
And they ended up actually not supplanting the standard education system so much as augmenting it.
他们最终实际上并没有取代标准教育体系，而是增强了它。
Sure.
当然。
That would be a lovely thing.
那将是一件可爱的事情。
So I just put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.
所以我只是把钱放在嘴边，可以这么说。
And if I’m not happy with what the universities are doing, I’m going to go try to figure out if I can figure out a way of doing it better.
如果我对大学所做的事情不满意，我会去尝试找出一种做得更好的方法。
And if I can’t, well then, tough luck for me.
如果我不能，那么，我就运气不好了。
And if I can, well, that would be a good thing.
如果我能做到的话，那将是一件好事。
The alternative vision — is there anything to that you would care to describe?
另一种愿景 — 您有什么愿意描述的吗？
Or are your thoughts too preliminary?
或者你的想法太初步了？
No, there’s some things I would like to describe.
不，有些事情我想描述一下。
I can tell you the problems that we’re trying to solve.
我可以告诉你我们正在努力解决的问题。
The first problem we ran into was that — because the original idea was to build an online university — but as soon as we started thinking about that deeply, we thought, “Well, that’s like building a horseless carriage.” Because when cars first came out, that’s how people conceptualized them, but they weren’t horseless carriages.
我们遇到的第一个问题是 —— 因为最初的想法是建立一所在线大学 —— 但是当我们开始深入思考这个问题时，我们想，“好吧，这就像建造一辆没有马拉的马车。”因为当汽车刚问世时，人们就是这样概念化它们的，但它们并不是没有马的马车。
They were something else.
他们是别的东西。
Right?
正确的？
And whatever you do online to educate people isn’t going to be a university because you don’t know what a university is.
无论你在网上做什么来教育人们，都不会成为一所大学，因为你不知道大学是什么。
And it isn’t obvious that it can be duplicated in the virtual world.
而且它在虚拟世界中是否可以复制并不明显。
One of the things we immediately ran into was the problem of, “Okay, well, what does the university do?” And the answer to that was, “Well, we don’t know.”
我们立即遇到的问题之一是“好吧，大学是做什么的？”答案是：“好吧，我们不知道。”
You might say, “University educates people and accredits people.” It’s not that obvious that it educates people.
你可能会说，“大学教育人们并认可人们。”它对人们的教育并不是那么明显。
It is obvious that it accredits and that the accreditation has some value, and it might be that the primary goal of university is, in fact, accreditation.
很明显，它进行认证，并且认证具有一定的价值，事实上，大学的首要目标可能就是认证。
But universities give young people a four-year, socially sanctioned identity that they can adopt while they’re experimenting and trying to mature.
但大学为年轻人提供了为期四年的、社会认可的身份，他们可以在尝试和尝试成熟的过程中采用这种身份。
That’s a big function.
这是一个很大的功能。
Universities give students, young people something to do when they leave home first while they grow up.
大学为学生、年轻人在成长过程中第一个离开家时提供一些事情做。
Right?
正确的？
Universities give people a chance to reconstitute their peer network and emerge as different people.
大学为人们提供了重建同伴网络并成为不同人的机会。
Universities give people a chance to contend with the great thought of the past — that would be the educational element.
大学为人们提供了一个与过去的伟大思想抗衡的机会——这将是教育的要素。
To find mentors, to become disciplined, to work towards a single goal.
寻找导师，变得自律，朝着一个目标努力。
And almost none of that has to do with content provision.
而这几乎与内容提供无关。
Because you might think, how do you duplicate a university online?
因为您可能会想，如何在线复制大学？
Well, you take lectures and you put them online, and you deliver multiple-choice questions.
嗯，你参加讲座并将其放在网上，然后提出多项选择题。
It’s like, yeah, but that’s one-fiftieth of what a university is doing.
就像，是的，但这只是大学所做的五十分之一。
So we’ve just scrapped that idea, and what we’re trying to do instead is to figure out, how can you teach people to write in a manner that’s scalable?
所以我们刚刚放弃了这个想法，我们想做的是弄清楚，如何教人们以可扩展的方式写作？
That’s a big problem because teaching people to write is very, very difficult, and it’s very labor intensive and expensive.
这是一个大问题，因为教人们写作是非常非常困难的，而且非常耗时且昂贵。
So that’s one problem we’d really like to crack.
所以这是我们真正想解决的一个问题。
How can you teach people to speak?
怎样才能教人说话呢？
And can you do that in a scalable manner as well?
您也能以可扩展的方式做到这一点吗？
Then we’re trying to figure out how we could bring content to the largest number of people in the most efficient manner possible, so one of the projects that we’re working on right now is, we’d like to do an introductory overview.
然后我们试图弄清楚如何以最有效的方式向尽可能多的人提供内容，所以我们现在正在进行的项目之一是，我们想做一个介绍性概述。
We’re going to start by concentrating on humanities courses.
我们将从专注于人文课程开始。
Our vision at the moment is that we’re going to make a history humanities timeline, something like that.
我们目前的愿景是，我们将制定一个历史人文时间表，类似的东西。
Maybe that might encompass somewhere between 50 and 100 topics.
也许这可能包含 50 到 100 个主题。
We start 10,000 years ago, and move forward up to the present time.
我们从一万年前开始，一直走到现在。
And we’re going to commission contests, to have people generate three- to five-minute videos for all 500 topics, and that would give people a walk through the entire course of Western civilization.
我们将举办竞赛，让人们为所有 500 个主题制作三到五分钟的视频，这将让人们了解西方文明的整个进程。
The people that we’re aiming at — my target market — would be intelligent, working-class people.
我们的目标人群——“我的目标市场”——将是聪明的工人阶级。
That’s the target market.
这就是目标市场。
That’s the right level of focus, as far as I’m concerned.
就我而言，这是正确的关注程度。
Does this online university .
这所在线大学有吗？
.
。
.
。
does it need virtual reality?
需要虚拟现实吗？
After all, we’re here talking to people live.
毕竟，我们是在这里与人们现场交谈。
We’re not doing this by Skype.
我们不是通过 Skype 来完成此操作。
Will online education solve that problem?
在线教育能解决这个问题吗？
Are we waiting for the tech world to solve it for us?
我们是否正在等待科技界为我们解决这个问题？
No, I can’t see, at the moment, any particular reason for virtual reality.
不，目前我看不出虚拟现实有任何特殊的原因。
But the dividing line between animation, say, and virtual reality is somewhat blurred.
但动画和虚拟现实之间的界限有些模糊。
We use virtual artificial realities all the time.
我们一直在使用虚拟人工现实。
But it’s very important to meet people, right?
但认识人很重要，对吗？
You give live talks all around the world.
您在世界各地进行现场演讲。
They see you maybe from some distance.
他们可能从远处看到你。
Yeah.
是的。
They would have a clearer view of you on YouTube, but there’s something emotionally vivid about the imprinting, psychologically speaking.
他们会在 YouTube 上对你有更清晰的了解，但从心理上来说，这种印记在情感上是生动的。
Yeah, well, that’s right.
是的，嗯，没错。
That’s one of the things that’s hard to duplicate in a virtual world.
这是在虚拟世界中难以复制的事情之一。
I don’t know the degree to which occurrences like this are necessary.
我不知道这样的事情发生到什么程度是必要的。
There’s something about the personal immediacy of live interaction that can’t be fully duplicated online, and we’re not exactly sure what to do about that.
实时互动的个人即时性是无法在网上完全复制的，我们也不确定该怎么办。
But we might be able to solve 90 percent of the problem of educating people in a virtual environment —
但我们也许能够解决 90% 在虚拟环境中教育人们的问题 —
Will the role of personal tutors go up or down in your vision?
在您的愿景中，私人导师的角色会上升还是下降？
Oh, I think it’ll go up.
哦，我觉得会涨。
It’ll go up?
会涨吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
One of the things that we want to do is accredit people for serving as tutors because part of the process of getting educated in our online system will be educating other people.
我们想做的事情之一是认可人们担任导师，因为在我们的在线系统中接受教育的过程的一部分将是教育其他人。
So we want to give people credit for doing things like grading and for peer assessment.
因此，我们希望人们对评分和同行评估等事情给予认可。
What we envision is that your power as an operator in the online education system will increase in proportion to the amount of the material that you’ve mastered.
我们的设想是，你作为在线教育系统的操作者的权力将随着你掌握的材料数量成比例地增加。
We want to make people responsible for the education of others as rapidly as possible.
我们希望尽快让人们对他人的教育负责。
Now, that happens in the universities too, right?
现在，这种情况也发生在大学里，对吗？
It’s slightly slower.
速度稍微慢一些。
Once you’re an undergraduate, you’re a graduate student, and then you’re immediately involved in teaching.
一旦你成为本科生，你就是研究生，然后你就立即参与教学。
We’d like to speed that process along.
我们希望加快这一进程。
On becoming a good educator
成为一名优秀的教育家
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Let’s say a young person comes to you and says something like, “I’d like to be Jordan Peterson of the next generation, not doing exactly what you’ve done, but something broadly analogous.” I’m sure this happens to you.
假设一个年轻人来找你，说：“我想成为下一代的乔丹·彼得森，不做你所做的事情，但做一些大致相似的事情。”我确信这会发生在你身上。
What advice do you give that person?
你给那个人什么建议？
Let’s say you think they’re quite smart.
假设您认为他们非常聪明。
Maybe there’s some chance they could aspire to this.
也许他们有机会实现这一目标。
What do you say?
你怎么说？
Well, don’t underestimate the utility of reading.
好吧，不要低估阅读的效用。
Look, one of the things I did when I went to university was, I chose my peer group.
看，我上大学时做的一件事就是，我选择了我的同龄人群体。
And partly that was a network of friends.
其中一部分是朋友网络。
I picked people who are ambitious, who wanted to become educated, and who felt that was important, so that was very helpful.
我选择了那些雄心勃勃、想要接受教育、并且认为这很重要的人，所以这非常有帮助。
And it was very liberating to me to have that happen.
发生这种事对我来说非常自由。
But then I started reading people.
但后来我开始读书。
Every time I read something that I thought was great, I tried to read as much as I could of everything that person had read.
每当我读到一些我认为很棒的东西时，我都会尝试尽可能多地阅读那个人读过的所有内容。
I’d read everything they wrote and then I looked for their sources.
我读了他们写的所有内容，然后寻找他们的来源。
Yes, that’s what I did.
是的，我就是这么做的。
Yeah, that was unbelievably useful.
是的，这非常有用。
I reread some Jung to have this talk with you.
我重读了一些荣格的文章来和你们进行这次谈话。
Aha.
啊哈。
So when you go to university, you can pick your peers, and you can pick peers throughout history.
所以当你上大学的时候，你可以选择你的同龄人，你也可以选择整个历史上的同龄人。
Or mentors, let’s say, because they’re certainly not peers, but they at least serve as a peer group.
或者说是导师，因为他们当然不是同龄人，但他们至少充当同龄人群体的角色。
So I would say you go to university to familiarize yourself with what’s great about the past.
所以我建议你去大学是为了熟悉过去的美好事物。
Maybe you go to university with the attitude that there was something great about the past, too.
也许你带着这样的态度去上大学，那就是过去也有一些伟大的事情。
That’d be a good start.
这将是一个好的开始。
And that’s one of the things that I think the universities have fallen down on in a terrible way.
我认为这就是大学严重衰落的原因之一。
Because they don’t separate the wheat from the chaff.
因为他们没有将麦子与谷壳分开。
And they make the presumption that the past is nothing but brutality.
他们假设过去只不过是残酷。
And believe me, the past is brutal.
相信我，过去是残酷的。
There’s no doubt about it.
毫无疑问。
But to think about it as nothing but brutality is a major error.
但如果认为它只是残酷，那就大错特错了。
I think it’s unbelievably useful to take time to write.
我认为花时间写作是非常有用的。
The reason that I’m able to speak fluently, I would say, and to lecture the way I do is because I spent a tremendous amount of time writing.
我想说，我之所以能够流利地说话，并以我的方式讲课，是因为我花了大量的时间写作。
And that’s given me a corpus of knowledge that I have at hand.
这给了我手头的知识库。
It’s not just recognition knowledge, right?
这不仅仅是识别知识，对吗？
It’s a recall.
这是一次回忆。
I know the stories.
我知道这些故事。
And then, of course, I’ve practiced that a lot.
然后，当然，我已经练习了很多。
So I would say if you want to become a good educator, which perhaps might mean that you were following in my footsteps, for better or worse, is like, well, you have to learn to read, and you have to learn to think critically, and you have to learn to write, and then you have to learn to speak.
所以我想说，如果你想成为一名优秀的教育家，这可能意味着你正在追随我的脚步，无论好坏，就像，嗯，你必须学会阅读，你必须学会批判性思考，你必须学会写作，然后你必须学会说话。
You have to get good at all those things.
你必须擅长所有这些事情。
And they’re all worth getting good at.
而且它们都值得擅长。
They’re unbelievably powerful skills.
它们是令人难以置信的强大技能。
This is one of the things that’s so sad, in some sense, about the degeneration of the humanities, is that pragmatic people, practical people, think that there’s nothing more useless, in some sense, than a Bachelor of Arts degree.
从某种意义上说，关于人文学科的堕落，最令人悲伤的事情之一是，务实的人，务实的人，认为从某种意义上说，没有什么比文学学士学位更无用的了。
And that’s exactly wrong.
这是完全错误的。
If you can communicate, there’s nothing more powerful than the ability to communicate, period.
如果你能沟通，那么没有什么比沟通能力更强大的了。
So what a Bachelor of Arts degree should do is make you a great communicator, someone who can really formulate an argument, and who can do that in writing, and who can do that in speaking.
因此，文学学士学位应该做的是让你成为一名出色的沟通者，能够真正阐述论点，能够以书面形式做到这一点，并且能够以口语形式做到这一点。
And that makes you — powerful isn’t the right word — it makes you authoritative and competent.
这让你 ——“强大这个词不太恰当”—— 它让你变得权威和有能力。
And that’s a good thing to be.
这是一件好事。
I mean, how is that going to not work out well?
我的意思是，这怎么会不顺利呢？
Final question, and you have three minutes to answer.
最后一个问题，你有三分钟的时间回答。
Then you must leave for your plane.
然后您必须出发去搭乘飞机。
Let’s say you’re speaking to outside parties, and they want to support the creation production finding of more disruptive public intellectuals in a positive way.
假设您正在与外部各方交谈，他们希望以积极的方式支持更具颠覆性的公共知识分子的创作成果。
What is your advice for them?
您对他们有什么建议？
Oh, man, you don’t want to do that.
哦，伙计，你不想那样做。
I mean, how many of those people do you want?
我的意思是，你想要多少这样的人？
I guess the answer to that would be, “Watch the people who you find compelling, and find out whatever avenues might be available to support them.” But just watching them is a big part of it, and sharing their ideas, and discussing them.
我想答案是，“观察那些你认为有吸引力的人，并找出可以支持他们的途径。”但观看他们就是其中的一个重要部分，分享他们的想法并进行讨论。
All of this so-called Intellectual Dark Web — that’s all come about organically in that manner.
所有这些所谓的“知识分子暗网”——都是以这种方式有机地产生的。
These are people who are putting forward ideas that they believe to be useful.
这些人提出了他们认为有用的想法。
And people are paying attention.
人们正在关注。
That’s good enough.
这就足够了。
That’s working out just fine.
效果很好。
I’ve tried to figure out why that nomenclature came about.
我试图弄清楚为什么会出现这个命名法。
Eric Weinstein came up with that term.
埃里克·韦恩斯坦提出了这个词。
Obviously, he’s pretty good at coining a term because it stuck.
显然，他非常擅长创造一个术语，因为它被人们所接受。
And it’s not easy to formulate a word.
而且要形成一个词并不容易。
Well, it is, but it’s very difficult to get other people to use it.
嗯，确实如此，但是很难让其他人使用它。
And that has worked.
这已经奏效了。
I’ve spent some time with some of the people who are in that putative group, trying to figure out why that term stuck and what everybody in that group had in common.
我花了一些时间与这个假定群体中的一些人一起，试图找出为什么这个术语被保留下来以及该群体中每个人的共同点。
And I think that the first is that everyone in that group is independent.
我认为首先是该群体中的每个人都是独立的。
They all have their own independent source of funding.
他们都有自己独立的资金来源。
So there’s no bureaucratic master at all, which is one of the things that’s extraordinarily interesting about YouTube and the podcast world: you need no bureaucratic intermediary.
所以根本不存在官僚主义的主人，这是 YouTube 和播客世界非常有趣的事情之一：你不需要官僚主义的中介。
So that’s really something, right?
所以这真的很重要，对吧？
That you have a television station at your disposal with no bureaucratic intermediation.
您拥有一家电视台可供您使用，无需任何官僚中介。
And people have barely begun to take advantage of this.
人们才刚刚开始利用这一点。
I’ve talked to politicians in Canada and said to them, “You guys, you just don’t have to talk to the press anymore.
我曾与加拿大的政客交谈过，并对他们说：“你们不必再与媒体交谈了。
You can just go right on YouTube and tell people what you’re up to.” And there’s no reason not to do it.
你可以直接在 YouTube 上告诉人们你在做什么。”并且没有理由不这样做。
Now, they’re slow, I would say they’re slow on the uptake.
现在，他们很慢，我想说他们的吸收速度很慢。
And that’s actually not an insult.
这实际上并不是一种侮辱。
I mean, it’s not that easy to note that that sort of technological transformation has taken place.
我的意思是，要注意到这种技术变革已经发生并不容易。
But I would say it’s the same for all of you.
但我想说这对你们所有人来说都是一样的。
If you have something to say, and you think it’s useful, you can just tell people on YouTube.
如果您有话要说，并且您认为有用，您可以直接在 YouTube 上告诉人们。
One of the things that’s so cool about the new media technology is that people want .
新媒体技术最酷的地方之一就是人们想要。
.
。
.
。
They just want direct communication.
他们只是想要直接沟通。
They don’t like high-level production values, all to people on YouTube, and they’re very savvy media consumers.
他们不喜欢高水平的制作价值，所有这些都针对 YouTube 上的人，而且他们是非常精明的媒体消费者。
A highly produced television show just looks like a lie.
制作精良的电视节目看起来就像是谎言。
If you’ve got something to say, they just want you to sit down and say it.
如果你有话要说，他们只是想让你坐下来说。
They don’t even want you to edit it so that it’s smoother because that just looks like you’re spinning the content, and you probably are.
他们甚至不希望你对其进行编辑以使其更流畅，因为这看起来就像你在旋转内容，而且你可能确实如此。
The other thing that characterizes the people in the IDW is that none of them think their audience is stupid.
IDW 成员的另一个特点是，他们没有人认为他们的观众是愚蠢的。
I’ve thought a lot about that, too.
我也对此想了很多。
The reason that the classic television stations thought that their audience was stupid — and I’m being a little harsh there because that’s not universally true — was because the technology made the audience look stupid, and here’s why.
经典电视台之所以认为他们的观众很愚蠢，是因为技术让观众看起来很愚蠢，原因如下。
If you were making a series of shows, you could never assume that your audience had watched any of the previous series.
如果您正在制作一系列节目，您永远不能假设您的观众已经观看了之前的任何系列节目。
And if they hadn’t, they didn’t get to because there was no archive.
如果他们没有，他们也无法到达，因为没有档案。
So if you hadn’t watched the 10-part series from the beginning, you weren’t going to get to.
因此，如果您没有从一开始就观看这个由 10 部分组成的系列节目，那么您就不会继续观看。
Well, that problem’s solved.
好吧，这个问题已经解决了。
Now, you can assume that your audience is up to speed with whatever you’re talking about.
现在，您可以假设您的听众已经了解了您所谈论的内容。
So that’s pretty cool.
所以这很酷。
You don’t have to think of your audience as devoid of knowledge or memory.
你不必认为你的听众缺乏知识或记忆。
You don’t have a bandwidth restriction anymore.
您不再有带宽限制。
For a long time, television bandwidth was unbelievably expensive.
很长一段时间以来，电视带宽都非常昂贵。
It’s really interesting now, going into a classic television studio and being interviewed by an old-school television journalist.
现在真的很有趣，走进一个经典的电视演播室并接受一位老派电视记者的采访。
It feels like stepping back into 1975 because the journalist isn’t actually there.
感觉就像回到了 1975 年，因为记者实际上并不在那里。
Because the bandwidth is so expansive that everything they do is scripted.
因为带宽是如此之大，以至于他们所做的一切都是脚本化的。
So you’re not talking to a person, you’re talking to a puppet.
所以你不是在和一个人说话，而是在和一个木偶说话。
They’re the puppet of the news organization, almost by necessity, right?
他们几乎是新闻机构的傀儡，这几乎是必然的，对吧？
They have to stay on script because they can’t afford to make a mistake.
他们必须遵守剧本，因为他们不能犯错误。
They’re scripted by their crew, and if they’re not the sort of people that accept scripting by their crew, then they don’t succeed in the job.
他们是由团队编写脚本的，如果他们不是那种接受团队编写脚本的人，那么他们就不会在工作中取得成功。
But that’s all gone, too, because you just don’t need it because bandwidth is free.
但这一切也都消失了，因为你不需要它，因为带宽是免费的。
Now, all of a sudden, it turns out that people will watch three-hour podcasts or 50-hour epics like Game of Thrones, which is way more than 50 hours now.
现在，突然之间，人们会观看 3 小时的播客或 50 小时的史诗片，比如《权力的游戏》，现在已经超过 50 小时了。
It turns out that people are way smarter than we thought because the bandwidth restrictions are gone, and we’re not viewing them through this tiny, tiny narrow portal that was characteristic of both radio and TV.
事实证明，人们比我们想象的要聪明得多，因为带宽限制消失了，而且我们不再通过广播和电视特有的这个极小、极窄的门户来观看它们。
The IDW types figured this out first.
IDW 类型首先发现了这一点。
We’re a fortunate group of people who managed to — what would you say?
我们是一群幸运的人，我们成功做到了 — 你会说什么？
Use a new technology early when people still thought it was mostly a place for cute cat videos.
当人们还认为新技术主要是发布可爱猫咪视频的地方时，请尽早使用新技术。
Jordan Peterson, thank you very much.
乔丹·彼得森，非常感谢你。
A big round of applause.
热烈的掌声。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It’s been very nice to be here and very good to talk to all of you.
很高兴来到这里，很高兴与大家交谈。
Thumbnail and header photo credit: Gage Skidmore
缩略图和标题照片来源：Gage Skidmore