Jonny Steinberg South African Crime and Punishment, the Mandelas' Marriage, and the Post-Apartheid Era (Ep. 258)
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today, I’m very excited to be talking with Jonny Steinberg.
今天，我很高兴能与乔尼·斯坦伯格交谈。
He has written what I think is one of the very best books of the last 10 years.
我认为他写的书是过去十年来最好的书之一。
It’s called Winnie and Nelson: Portrait of a Marriage.
它的名字叫《温妮和尼尔森：婚姻的肖像》。
He is, in my view, one of the most underrated — in North America, at least — writers and thinkers.
在我看来，他是北美最被低估的作家和思想家之一，至少是这样。
I like all of his books.
我喜欢他所有的书。
Thin Blue and The Number are two others I would recommend.
《Thin Blue》和《The Number》是我推荐的另外两个。
He was born in Johannesburg, South Africa.
他出生于南非约翰内斯堡。
He has taught there.
他在那里任教。
He was a professor at Oxford University.
他是牛津大学的教授。
He now is teaching part-time at Yale.
他现在在耶鲁大学兼职教学。
Jonny, welcome.
乔尼，欢迎。
Thanks, Tyler.
谢谢，泰勒。
On policing in South Africa
关于南非的警务
Your work on the police in South Africa — if there are two policemen in a township in South Africa, how large is the crowd they can successfully confront and still manage to handle?
您对南非警察的研究 ——如果南非的一个乡镇有两名警察，他们能够成功对抗并仍然能够应对的人群有多大？
It depends very much on the circumstances: where they are, the time of day.
这在很大程度上取决于具体情况：他们在哪里、一天中的时间。
But if it’s a Saturday night, and there’re 10 or 20 people, and they’re young, those two cops don’t want to be there.
但如果是周六晚上，有 10 或 20 个人，而且他们都很年轻，那两个警察就不想在那里。
They’ll make sure that they’re not.
他们会确保他们不是。
So they just don’t even show up and take the call.
所以他们甚至不出现并接电话。
Yeah.
是的。
When I was riding around with them, it was really amusing.
当我和他们一起骑车时，真的很有趣。
They had an equivalent of a CompStat system, which told them where the hot spots were, which was where they had to police, and they’d make absolutely sure to do the opposite and not be in hot spots, because if there were only two of them, they were not sure that they could control people.
他们有一个相当于 CompStat 系统，告诉他们热点在哪里，这是他们必须进行监管的地方，并且他们绝对确保做相反的事情并且不会处于热点中，因为如果只有两个人，他们不确定自己是否可以控制人们。
So you spent about 350 hours riding around in South African police vans?
那么您花了大约 350 个小时乘坐南非警车到处转？
Yeah, about that.
是的，关于那件事。
This is what, 2004 to 2007?
这是什么，2004年到2007年？
That’s right.
这是正确的。
What was the most surprising thing you learned?
你学到的最令人惊讶的事情是什么？
Well, exactly that the police try not to police because they are afraid of people, and they essentially gravitate to situations in which they’re comfortable.
嗯，确切地说，警察尽量不去警察，因为他们害怕别人，而且他们基本上会倾向于他们感到舒服的情况。
The only situation in which they’re comfortable is a situation in which they’ve been called, and that’s usually domestic violence because they walk into a scene because they’ve been asked to be there, and that gives them authority.
他们唯一感到舒服的情况是他们被叫去的情况，这通常是家庭暴力，因为他们走进一个场景是因为他们被要求去那里，这赋予了他们权力。
This is hardly a new thought, but what comes to me is that policing happens by consent or it doesn’t happen.
这并不是一个新想法，但我想到的是，维持治安必须经过同意，否则就不会发生。
They don’t enter crowds because those crowds don’t want them and don’t consent for them to be there, and so they’re not.
他们不进入人群，因为人群不想要他们，也不同意他们在那里，所以他们不去。
And so, a relationship between police and a public is driven by whether a public wants them there.
因此，警察和公众之间的关系取决于公众是否希望他们在那里。
I know you did your field work some while ago, but do you have a sense of circa 2025 how willing people are to be policed in South Africa?
我知道您不久前做过实地调查，但您是否知道 2025 年左右，南非人们接受警察监管的意愿有多大？
It was a long time ago, but it’s probably gotten worse.
那是很久以前的事了，但情况可能变得更糟。
2007 was 13 years after the beginning of democracy.
2007年是民主开始13年后。
There was still a novelty that you could call the police at all, which, if you were Black, you couldn’t do under apartheid.
还有一个新奇之处是你可以报警，如果你是黑人，在种族隔离制度下你就做不到这一点。
Whatever shreds of legitimacy the police had in 2007 are much, much weaker now.
无论警察在 2007 年拥有多少合法性，现在都变得非常非常弱了。
And do you see any path for fixing this that’s on the horizon?
您是否认为有任何解决这个问题的途径？
Or it seems very distant?
或者看起来很遥远？
No, it can be fixed.
不，它可以修复。
I’m not sure that the constellation of political forces in charge now can do it, but it absolutely can be fixed.
我不确定现在掌权的政治力量能否做到这一点，但它绝对可以解决。
I don’t know if you want me to go into some of the details —
我不知道你是否想让我讲一些细节 —
What does that path look like?
这条路是什么样子的？
Tell us.
告诉我们。
Well, you start by choosing which crimes are the ones that you want to go after, and you target them, usually beginning with good detection.
好吧，你首先选择要追查的犯罪行为，然后瞄准它们，通常从良好的侦查开始。
And to do good detection, you assemble a carefully hand-picked group of people into small, well-resourced, well-motivated groups.
为了进行良好的检测，您需要将精心挑选的一群人组装成资源充足、积极主动的小团体。
You don’t try and fix the whole thing at once.
你不会试图立即解决整个问题。
It’s absolutely enormous.
这绝对是巨大的。
You start with priorities, and you build good organizations around those priorities and you move from there.
你从优先事项开始，围绕这些优先事项建立良好的组织，然后从那里开始。
And do you think South Africa’s doing that now or failing?
您认为南非现在正在这样做还是失败了？
It has been failing catastrophically up until now.
到目前为止，它一直在灾难性地失败。
There’s an enormous crisis in policing right now.
目前治安面临着巨大的危机。
One of the leading commanders in the police accused the cabinet minister in charge of policing of being in hock with organized crime.
警方的一名主要指挥官指责负责治安的内阁部长与有组织犯罪勾结。
There’s a big commission of inquiry; there’s a new minister.
有一个很大的调查委员会；有一位新部长。
It may be one of those inflection points in which change is possible, but there hasn’t been much good in policing for the last 15 years.
这可能是可能发生变革的拐点之一，但过去 15 年警务工作并没有取得太大进展。
And the moral force that the policemen have when confronting a crowd — does that depend much on whether they’re White or Black or that’s just not very relevant?
警察在面对人群时所拥有的道德力量——这在很大程度上取决于他们是白人还是黑人，还是不太相关？
The main thing is that they’re police.
最主要的是他们是警察。
It’s complicated.
情况很复杂。
Generally Black.
一般为黑色。
When there’s recruitment into the police, the educational requirements are minimal.
当警察招募时，教育要求是最低的。
You need a driver’s license and a secondary school education.
您需要驾驶执照和中学教育。
And in a country with an expanded unemployment rate of 40 percent, literally tens of thousands of people apply.
在一个失业率高达 40% 的国家，实际上有数万人提出申请。
A tiny, tiny minority of those who apply get the job, and they now have a fairly decent salary.
申请者中只有极少数得到了这份工作，而且他们现在的薪水相当不错。
They have a life job; they’re going to get a pension.
他们有一份终生的工作；他们将获得养老金。
They’ve really, in the eyes of other people who’ve missed out, been catapulted unfairly into the middle class.
在其他错过的人看来，他们确实被不公平地推入了中产阶级。
And so, there’s an anger around Black police, that in the country of mass unemployment, they’ve gotten ahead just by chance, just by throwing the dice.
因此，黑人警察周围存在一种愤怒，他们认为在这个大规模失业的国家，他们只是通过掷骰子偶然取得了成功。
And so, there’s a sense that you’re being policed by people who are trying to get out of the ghetto and have succeeded and shouldn’t have.
因此，有一种感觉，你正受到那些试图逃离贫民窟的人的监管，他们成功了，但不应该成功。
So that creates this class resentment towards Black police.
这就造成了对黑人警察的阶级怨恨。
So you think it might be even harder for Black police?
所以你认为黑人警察可能更难？
I think it’s hard for both.
我认为这对双方来说都很难。
But those are the particular resentments that Black police carry.
但这些是黑人警察所怀有的特殊怨恨。
Female cops versus male cops — do you think there’s a noticeable difference?
女警察与男警察 — 你认为有明显区别吗？
Yeah, in domestic violence, there’s a huge difference.
是的，在家庭暴力方面，存在巨大差异。
I see how differently female and male cops police a domestic violence scene.
我看到女性和男性警察在处理家庭暴力现场时有多么不同。
The really sad thing about policing in South Africa is, very few ordinary people know what the law is, and it’s made up by police in the moment, and they have a lot of leeway because they’ve been called onto the scene.
南非警察的真正可悲之处在于，很少有普通人知道法律是什么，而且法律是由警察现在制定的，他们有很大的回旋余地，因为他们被叫到现场。
And what a woman does and a man does is, in my experience, usually very, very different.
根据我的经验，女人和男人所做的事情通常非常非常不同。
They’ve different imaginations of what a family should be, different types of empathy.
他们对家庭应该是什么样子有不同的想象，不同类型的同理心。
Yeah, it can make a world of difference.
是的，它可以改变世界。
And on average, who do you think does the better job, the male cop or the female cop?
平均而言，您认为男警察和女警察谁的工作做得更好？
It depends so much on the situation.
这在很大程度上取决于具体情况。
It depends on the male and the female cop.
这取决于男警察和女警察。
It depends who the perpetrator was.
这取决于肇事者是谁。
I don’t think you can generalize.
我认为你不能一概而论。
I think scenes surprise you.
我认为场景会让你感到惊讶。
I was always surprised by what happened at the scene.
我总是对现场发生的事情感到惊讶。
How trustworthy are the police themselves?
警察本身有多值得信赖？
Less and less so.
越来越少了。
It’s become fairly common practice in South African police that if you’re going to see to a crime scene, see to a crime, you get paid.
在南非警方中，如果你要去犯罪现场、处理犯罪行为，你就会得到报酬，这已经成为相当普遍的做法。
It’s become fairly endemic in the South African police.
这种情况在南非警察中已经相当普遍。
And you’re paid by whom?
你的工资由谁支付？
Paid by the people who want you to investigate the crime.
由那些希望你调查犯罪的人支付。
For instance, police arrive on a scene — it could even be domestic violence — and police could say, “Well, whether we stay depends on whether you make it lucrative for us.”
例如，警察到达现场——“甚至可能是家庭暴力”——警察可能会说，“好吧，我们是否留下来取决于你是否能让我们从中获利。”
Is it ever like some parts of Mexico where you’re more afraid of the police themselves than of the criminals?
是不是像墨西哥的某些地方一样，你更害怕警察而不是罪犯？
I mean the police then are the criminals.
我的意思是警察就是罪犯。
I think that’s rare.
我认为这很少见。
I think that in a poor ghetto on a Friday and a Saturday night, the police are very violent.
我认为在周五和周六晚上，在一个贫穷的贫民区，警察非常暴力。
They move in paramilitary formations.
他们以准军事编队行动。
They throw young men on the streets into vans, but generally they will not seriously hurt or kill somebody in a situation like that.
他们把街上的年轻人扔进货车里，但一般来说，在这种情况下他们不会严重伤害或杀死某人。
So yeah, I’d say people are not more afraid of the police than of criminals, but they’re very, very wary of the police.
所以，是的，我想说，人们并不比害怕罪犯更害怕警察，但他们对警察非常非常警惕。
How dangerous is it to work as police in South Africa if they’re not going to a lot of the crimes and the troubled situations?
如果在南非当警察不去处理很多犯罪和麻烦的情况，那会有多危险？
Is it, in some ways, a safe job?
从某些方面来说，这是一份安全的工作吗？
Or is it still very dangerous?
还是仍然很危险？
I don’t know what the numbers are now, but the per capita rate of murder of police when I was working on this stuff 15 years ago was considerably lower than a 25-year-old Black man in a ghetto who was not a police officer.
我不知道现在的数字是多少，但 15 年前我从事这项工作时，警察的人均谋杀率远低于贫民窟中非警察的 25 岁黑人。
So, they were safer than the people they were policing.
因此，他们比他们所监管的人更安全。
And during the transition from apartheid, what mistakes do you think were made with policing and police forces?
在种族隔离过渡期间，您认为治安和警察部队犯了哪些错误？
What would you have done differently, with the benefit of hindsight?
事后看来，你会采取什么不同的做法？
Well, there was a four- or five-year hiatus in which the new government did not trust the existing police, but also had a constitutional agreement not to get rid of them.
嗯，有四五年的中断，新政府不信任现有的警察，但也有宪法协议不解雇他们。
There was a long pause, and oddly, in that pause, some fairly good work was done.
有一个很长的停顿，奇怪的是，在这个停顿中，一些相当不错的工作完成了。
When South Africa’s second democratically elected president came to power, Thabo Mbeki, he immediately began using the police to police his own party.
当南非第二位民选总统塔博·姆贝基上台后，他立即开始使用警察来监管自己的政党。
He put his own police commissioner in place.
他任命了自己的警察局长。
A number of his opponents and enemies were being policed by a function that was made to be a state function, not a party function.
他的许多反对者和敌人正在受到一项被定为国家职能而非政党职能的职能的监管。
And that saw a rapid decline because once police are seen as a politician’s vehicle, it becomes very difficult to make its bureaucratic integrity.
这种情况迅速下降，因为一旦警察被视为政客的工具，就很难保持其官僚廉洁。
On safety in South African cities
关于南非城市的安全
Now, if I’m in Cape Town, at least many parts of that seem relatively safe.
现在，如果我在开普敦，至少那里的许多地方看起来相对安全。
What have they done differently or why has that evolved differently?
他们做了什么不同的事情，或者为什么会有不同的演变？
Well, I think because probably in Cape Town, you were in middle-class bourgeois spaces, which are privately policed.
嗯，我想是因为可能在开普敦，你生活在中产阶级资产阶级的空间里，那里有私人警察监管。
They’re not —
他们不是 ——
You mean private security forces?
你是说私人保安部队吗？
Yes.
是的。
They’re not nearly as safe as the streets of New York City or London or Paris.
它们远不如纽约、伦敦或巴黎的街道那么安全。
But on the other side of the mountain is Khayelitsha, which is a township of, I think now, over a million people.
但山的另一边是卡耶利沙（Khayelitsha），我想现在这个小镇的人口超过了一百万。
And the murder rate there is literally exponentially higher than in the parts of Cape Town you and I wander through.
那里的谋杀率实际上比你和我漫步经过的开普敦部分地区要高得多。
It’s a puzzle for me, as an economist, in many areas — not just Cape Town — why the criminals don’t make greater effort to move into the safer neighborhoods and commit crimes there.
作为一名经济学家，这对我来说是一个谜题，在许多地区——不仅仅是开普敦——为什么犯罪分子不付出更大的努力进入更安全的社区并在那里犯罪。
Is it because they stand out too much, or they’re culturally not attuned to that possibility, or they simply would be detained right away?
是因为他们太引人注目，还是他们在文化上不适应这种可能性，或者他们只是会立即被拘留？
What stops the mobility across the borders?
是什么阻碍了跨境流动？
Well, there’s a lot of mobility across the borders.
嗯，跨境流动性很大。
Property crime rates are pretty high in middle-class Cape Town, but the vast majority of violent crimes are between young men who know one another.
开普敦中产阶级的财产犯罪率相当高，但绝大多数暴力犯罪发生在彼此认识的年轻人之间。
Predatory crimes sometimes result in murder, but it’s a small minority of them.
掠夺性犯罪有时会导致谋杀，但这只是其中的一小部分。
So yes, middle class people are much, much more victimized by crime than their counterparts where you and I live, but not murder.
所以，是的，中产阶级比你我居住的地方的中产阶级遭受犯罪的受害者要多得多，但不是谋杀。
And the property crime would be something like breaking into a home to take a television, look for jewelry?
财产犯罪类似于闯入民宅拿走电视、寻找珠宝？
Or is it different?
还是有什么不同？
Stealing a car.
偷车。
The scary ones are the face-to-face ones, being robbed at gunpoint, and that ebbs and flows depending on how well middle-class areas are policed.
可怕的是面对面的抢劫，被枪指着抢劫，而这种情况的好坏取决于中产阶级地区的治安状况。
On prisons in South Africa
关于南非的监狱
Now, in your book, The Number, you studied prison gangs in South Africa.
现在，在您的著作《数字》中，您研究了南非的监狱帮派。
How do those gangs regulate the behavior of their members?
这些团伙如何规范其成员的行为？
Through a combination of pretty scary violence and a very, very elaborate set of rituals, which are based on a rich old oral history.
通过相当可怕的暴力和一套非常非常复杂的仪式的结合，这些仪式基于丰富的古老口述历史。
To be initiated into one of South Africa’s prison gangs is to be told a story of a figure who is both mythical and based on a real historical figure, called Nongoloza who was a bandit at the very beginning of the industrialization of South Africa.
加入南非监狱帮派的一个故事是关于一个既是神话人物又是基于真实历史人物的人物的故事，这个人物名叫农戈洛扎（Nongoloza），他是南非工业化初期的一名强盗。
His story of banditry, which is told as one of crime’s anti-colonial resistance, becomes a set of laws for a gang.
他的土匪故事被描述为犯罪的反殖民抵抗，成为帮派的一套法律。
And the disputes between him and his colleagues in their time — primarily over whether gangsters can have sex with one another — mirror the divisions of gangs today.
他和他那个时代的同事之间的争论——“主要是关于帮派成员之间是否可以发生性关系”——反映了当今帮派的分裂。
It’s an extraordinary ritualized world, but it’s also a fascinating way of storytelling because you have law and ritual embedded in narrative.
这是一个非凡的仪式化世界，但它也是一种令人着迷的讲故事方式，因为叙事中嵌入了法律和仪式。
And so, to enforce law is to tell a story.
因此，执行法律就是讲故事。
That seems culturally richer than American gangs.
这在文化上似乎比美国帮派更丰富。
Maybe I’m wrong there, but do you have the sense that the South African gangs have deeper stories or institutions?
也许我错了，但你是否感觉到南非帮派有更深层次的故事或机构？
I haven’t come across anything quite like it elsewhere in the world.
我在世界其他地方还没有遇到过类似的事情。
In South Africa, you could walk into any prison anywhere in the country, and one of the gangs derived from these stories — they’re called the 26s, the 27s, and 28s — will control the prison, and they’ll be telling the same story.
在南非，你可以走进该国任何地方的任何监狱，由这些故事派生的帮派之一——他们被称为“26s”、“27s”和“28s”——将控制监狱，他们会讲述同样的故事。
That story hasn’t changed all that much in a century.
这个故事一个世纪以来并没有发生太大变化。
So, it’s extraordinary, the extent to which it’s been passed from generation to generation.
所以，它代代相传的程度是非凡的。
And it has not lost its texture; it hasn’t lost its basic narrative line.
而且它并没有失去质感；它并没有失去基本的叙事线索。
Those prison gangs are probably the oldest institutions in South Africa.
这些监狱帮派可能是南非最古老的机构。
And those gangs — they have courts and trials, right?
那些帮派 ——他们有法庭和审判，对吧？
What are those like?
那些是什么样的？
Again, they’re enormously ritualized.
再次强调，它们是非常仪式化的。
So, the gangs speak a language, which is purposed to make these organizations functional, including judicial functions.
因此，帮派使用一种语言，其目的是使这些组织发挥作用，包括司法职能。
A judge in a gang will essentially retell the story of Nongoloza in order to try the accused.
犯罪团伙中的法官实际上会重述农戈洛扎的故事，以便审判被告。
You’re literally, metaphorically placing yourself in another time and another place, out in the open in the late 19th century, and deciding whether you’ve lived by Nongoloza’s rules.
你实际上是在隐喻地将自己置于另一个时间和另一个地方，在 19 世纪末的露天环境中，并决定你是否遵循 Nongoloza 的规则。
There’s a strange combination of fairy tale, procedural process, and violence.
童话故事、程序过程和暴力奇怪地结合在一起。
Do you have a sense of where all this comes from?
你知道这一切从何而来吗？
In the first place, it comes from the mass incarceration of the early working class of Johannesburg.
首先，它来自约翰内斯堡早期工人阶级的大规模监禁。
There was a point in the early 20th century where 70 percent, 80 percent of working-class Black people who entered the city would go into the jails at some point.
在20世纪初的某个时刻，进入城市的70%、80%的工人阶级黑人在某个时候都会被关进监狱。
And the real historical Nongoloza’s original gang was out in the open.
历史上真正的农戈洛萨最初的帮派已经公开。
It was subdued; he was arrested and went into jail.
它被抑制了；他被捕并入狱。
Strangely, much of the early working class went into jail with him.
奇怪的是，许多早期工人阶级与他一起入狱。
So, there’s a parallel movement between the founder and an entire class of people.
因此，创始人和整个阶层之间存在着平行的运动。
The extent to which incarceration became an everyday experience for most people was extraordinary.
对于大多数人来说，监禁已成为一种日常经历，其程度非同寻常。
It was one of the defining features of early modern South Africa.
这是近代早期南非的决定性特征之一。
It stands out in relation to the rest of Africa, certainly.
当然，与非洲其他地区相比，它很突出。
And what is it exactly that they’re going to jail for?
他们究竟因为什么而入狱？
Well, back in those early days, it was having the wrong stamp in your book or being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that really intensified during the high apartheid period.
嗯，在早期，你的书上有错误的印记，或者在错误的时间出现在错误的地点，这种情况在种族隔离严重时期确实加剧了。
By the late 1960s, something like three-quarters of a million people were being taken off the streets every year for having the wrong stamp in their book or not having their book at all.
到 20 世纪 60 年代末，每年约有四分之三的人因为书中盖有错误的邮票或根本没有带书而被带离街头。
It was racial minority regimes’ policing of Black movements, which put the majority of those people in prison.
少数族裔政权对黑人运动的监管，导致其中大多数人入狱。
And that just becomes practically impossible at some point, right?
而这在某些时候实际上变得不可能了，对吧？
Well, the apartheid government was terrified by what it was doing.
好吧，种族隔离政府对其所做的事情感到恐惧。
It never realized it would have to use so much coercion.
它从未意识到自己必须使用如此多的强制手段。
And by the late ’60s, early ’70s, there was a very, very strange sense of unreality in South Africa’s ruling elite.
到了 60 年代末、70 年代初，南非的统治精英有一种非常非常奇怪的不真实感。
It knew that the system had a shelf life.
它知道系统有保质期。
It could not last forever.
它不可能永远持续下去。
There wasn’t really the courage or the imagination to think of something else.
确实没有勇气或想象力去思考其他事情。
And so, the system kept spinning with everybody knowing it had to come to an end sometime, and it went on much, much too long.
因此，这个系统一直在旋转，每个人都知道它必须在某个时候结束，而且它持续了很长时间。
And is Rhodesia imprisoning working-class people at a comparable rate?
罗德西亚监禁工人阶级的比例是否也有类似的程度？
Or that’s a very different story?
或者这是一个非常不同的故事？
It’s the one other southern African country which is imprisoning a huge amount of people, not the same percentage as South Africa, but also a very strong bureaucratic state imprisoning a lot of people to police a new proletariat.
这是另一个南部非洲国家，监禁了大量人口，比例与南非不同，但也是一个非常强大的官僚国家，监禁大量人员以监管新的无产阶级。
And in the prisons, how did apartheid work?
在监狱里，种族隔离是如何运作的？
There’re separate sections for White and Black prisoners?
白人和黑人囚犯有单独的区域吗？
Yes.
是的。
And the guards are Black for the Black sections and White for the White sections, or what?
黑人区的警卫是黑色的，白人区的警卫是白色的，还是什么？
It changes through history.
它随着历史的变化而变化。
In the beginning, it’s only White warders for Black prisoners.
一开始，只有白人狱卒看守黑人囚犯。
But by the 1970s, 1980s, there aren’t nearly enough people to staff the apartheid state.
但到了 20 世纪 70 年代和 80 年代，这个种族隔离国家的工作人员已经不够了。
And by then, the majority of civil servants are Black, but there’s a color bar.
到那时，大多数公务员都是黑人，但有一个肤色限制。
There’s a limit to how far their careers can advance.
他们的职业发展是有限度的。
And so, you have the basic functionaries of the state — from police to prison, warders to nurses — being Black in a White-governed state.
因此，国家的基本官员是——从警察到监狱，看守到护士——在白人统治的国家中是黑人。
And are the guards in league with the gangs?
警卫是否与帮派勾结？
In essence, they find that’s the easiest way to keep order, is to make deals with the gangs and let the gangs rule?
本质上，他们发现维持秩序最简单的方法，就是和帮派做交易，让帮派统治？
Sometimes.
有时。
But generally, canonically, it was a deeply, deeply hostile relationship.
但总的来说，按照规范，这是一种非常非常敌对的关系。
And that hostility was fueled by the occasional act of ritual violence that gangsters inflicted on a White warder.
歹徒偶尔对白人看守实施仪式性暴力，加剧了这种敌意。
And when that happened, the relationship would break down, and there would be a ritual of general violence inflicted on the entire prison population.
当这种情况发生时，这种关系就会破裂，整个监狱里的人都会遭受普遍的暴力。
The entire prison population would be herded into a courtyard.
整个监狱的人都会被赶到一个院子里。
Not only warders, but depending on where the prison was, the White farmers in the area would all collect with baseball bats and literally break bones.
不仅是看守，而且根据监狱所在的位置，该地区的白人农民都会用棒球棒收集并打断骨头。
And who would run the prison economies?
谁来管理监狱经济？
Would it be the gangs or the guards?
是帮派还是警卫？
Well, until the late 1980s, there was barely a prison economy.
直到 20 世纪 80 年代末，监狱经济才刚刚兴起。
They were tightly sealed.
它们被紧紧密封着。
But as apartheid began falling apart, so did the prisons.
但随着种族隔离制度开始瓦解，监狱也瓦解了。
And by the late 1980s, early ’90s, warders were one of the main conduits in the drug economy, passing merchandise in and out of the prison.
到了 20 世纪 80 年代末、90 年代初，狱卒已成为毒品经济的主要渠道之一，负责将商品进出监狱。
Things changed very rapidly, very quickly.
事情变化得非常快、非常快。
I suppose I have this as a more general question about apartheid, but prisons in particular — what if someone had a skin color that at least visually did not very well match the legal status of their race?
我想我这是一个关于种族隔离的更普遍的问题，但特别是监狱 ——如果某人的肤色至少在视觉上与他们种族的法律地位不太相符怎么办？
They would be put into which kind of prison, and how would they fare?
他们会被关进什么样的监狱，他们会过得怎么样？
Well, it depends what it said in their passbook, in their identity documents.
嗯，这取决于他们的存折、身份证件上的内容。
There was a huge debate in early apartheid South Africa about how to racially classify people.
在种族隔离初期的南非，关于如何对人进行种族分类存在着一场激烈的辩论。
Generally, the judicial wanted it to be by ancestry, but that became very tricky because there was much more mixing than the apartheid government could be comfortable with.
一般来说，司法机关希望通过血统来确定，但这变得非常棘手，因为种族隔离政府无法接受的混合程度要高得多。
Finally, what was used was the common sense of White working-class people.
最后，使用的是白人工人阶级的常识。
In 1950, the government decided that it was going to finally racially categorize every single person in the country.
1950 年，政府决定最终对该国每个人进行种族分类。
A posse of White working-class people who had really only become White working-class in the last generation through a project of racial uplift — and therefore knew how they were not Black — were sent out to define who everybody was.
一群白人工人阶级实际上只是在上一代通过种族提升计划才成为白人工人阶级——因此知道自己为什么不是黑人——被派去定义每个人是谁。
There were certainly no scientific classifications or even any particularly rigid classifications.
当然没有科学的分类，甚至没有任何特别严格的分类。
It was relying on intuition.
这是依靠直觉。
“We know that you are not White by the way you carry yourself, by where you live, by who your friends are, by what you wear.” So, in a sense, the cultural victory was punctuated by this process of racially defining everybody.
“通过你的举止、你居住的地方、你的朋友是谁、你的穿着，我们知道你不是白人。”因此，从某种意义上说，文化上的胜利被这种对每个人进行种族定义的过程所打断。
You could appeal against it.
您可以对此提出上诉。
And it’s through the appeals that we see this process happening because those are written down and transcribed.
正是通过呼吁，我们看到了这一过程的发生，因为这些呼吁被写下来并转录下来。
And the group known as Coloureds or the Malays — how were they classified in the prison system?
还有被称为有色人种或马来人的群体——他们在监狱系统中是如何分类的？
Well, the prison that I did most of my research in was predominantly Coloured people because the majority Coloured population is in the Western Cape, and that’s where the prison was.
嗯，我做大部分研究的监狱主要是有色人种，因为大多数有色人种都在西开普省，而那里就是监狱所在的地方。
They were classified as Coloureds.
他们被归类为有色人种。
That was one of the official apartheid categories.
这是官方种族隔离类别之一。
So, they have their own set of cells that are set off from the others?
那么，它们有自己的一组细胞，与其他细胞不同？
Oh, no, no. They and Black people were mixed.
哦，不，不。他们和黑人是混血儿。
It was White people who couldn’t mix with anybody else.
白人无法与其他人交往。
And once apartheid fell, how is it that the prisons change in all these regards?
一旦种族隔离制度废除，监狱在所有这些方面会发生怎样的变化？
Are the prisons themselves desegregated?
监狱本身是否废除了种族隔离？
Yes, they are.
是的，他们是。
And you get White people appearing in this maximum-security prison that I was researching for the first time in South African history.
你会看到白人出现在这座最高安全级别的监狱中，这是我在南非历史上第一次进行研究。
They’d be very few and far between.
他们的数量非常少，而且相隔很远。
There’d be one White guy in a cell of 50 people, and they stood out, and they had to acculturate very quickly.
一个 50 人的牢房里只有一个白人，他们很引人注目，而且必须很快适应环境。
They became members of a gang.
他们成为了一个团伙的成员。
They would work out some sort of modus vivendi.
他们会制定某种临时办法。
They were quite exotic figures in this environment.
在这种环境下，他们是相当奇特的人物。
Overall, did that go okay or was there a lot of violence?
总体而言，进展顺利还是存在很多暴力？
There is a lot of violence in South African prisons.
南非监狱中存在大量暴力事件。
Sure, but relative to normal status quo.
当然可以，但相对于正常现状而言。
I can only say what I saw, and I never watched a White person come in for the first time and have to negotiate things from scratch.
我只能说我所看到的，我从来没有见过白人第一次进来就必须从头开始谈判。
I met White people who had been there for a while and had managed to negotiate a presence.
我遇到了白人，他们已经在那里呆了一段时间，并设法通过谈判达成了在那里的存在。
I don’t think they’re necessarily subjected to particularly more violence than anybody else.
我认为他们不一定比其他人遭受更多的暴力。
On the complex personalities of Winnie and Nelson Mandela
温妮·曼德拉和纳尔逊·曼德拉复杂的性格
My favorite book of yours again is Winnie and Nelson, which has won a number of awards.
我最喜欢的书又是《温妮和尼尔森》，它赢得了许多奖项。
A few questions about that.
有几个问题。
So, they’re this very charismatic couple.
所以，他们是这对非常有魅力的夫妇。
Obviously, they become world-historical famous.
显然，他们成为世界历史名人。
For how long were they even together as a pair?
他们作为一对在一起多久了？
Very, very briefly.
非常非常简短。
They met in early 1957.
他们于 1957 年初相识。
They married in ’58.
他们于 58 年结婚。
By 1960, Mandela was no longer living at home.
1960 年，曼德拉不再住在家里。
He was underground.
他在地下。
He was on the run.
他正在逃亡。
By 1962, he was in prison.
1962年，他入狱。
So, they were really only living together under the same roof for two years.
所以，他们实际上只在同一个屋檐下生活了两年。
And how well do you feel they knew each other?
您觉得他们彼此了解多少？
Well, that’s an interesting question because Nelson Mandela was very, very in love with his wife, very besotted with his wife.
嗯，这是一个有趣的问题，因为纳尔逊·曼德拉非常非常爱他的妻子，非常迷恋他的妻子。
He was 38, she was 20 when they met.
他们相遇时，他38岁，她20岁。
She was beautiful.
她很漂亮。
He was a notorious philanderer.
他是一个臭名昭著的花花公子。
He was married with three children when they met.
他们相识时，他已婚并育有三个孩子。
He really was besotted with her.
他真的是对她着迷了。
I don’t think that he ever truly came to know her.
我认为他从未真正了解过她。
And when he was in prison, you can see it in his letters.
当他入狱时，你可以从他的信中看到这一点。
It’s quite remarkable to watch.
观看起来非常精彩。
She more and more becomes the center of meaning in his life, his sense of foundation, his sense of self as everything else is falling away.
她越来越成为他生命意义的中心，他的基础感，他的自我意识，而其他一切都在消失。
And he begins to love her more and more, and even to coronate her more and more so that she doesn’t forget him.
他开始越来越爱她，甚至越来越为她加冕，让她不会忘记他。
His letters grow more romantic, more intense, more emotional.
他的信变得更加浪漫、更加强烈、更加情绪化。
But the person he’s so deeply in love with is really a fiction.
但他如此深爱的人却是虚构的。
She’s living a life on the outside.
她过着在外面的生活。
And you see this very troubling line between fantasy and reality.
你会看到幻想与现实之间的这条非常令人不安的界限。
A man becoming deeply, deeply involved with a woman who is more and more a figment of his imagination.
一个男人与一个越来越深地陷入他想象中的女人的关系越来越深。
Do you think you learned anything about marriage more generally from writing this book?
您认为通过写这本书您对婚姻有更普遍的了解吗？
One of the sets of documents that I came across in writing the book were the transcripts of their meetings in the last 10 years of his imprisonment.
我在写这本书的过程中遇到的一组文件是他被监禁的最后十年里他们的会议记录。
The authorities bugged all of his meetings.
当局窃听了他的所有会议。
They knew they were being bugged, but nonetheless, they were very, very candid with each other.
他们知道自己被窃听了，但尽管如此，他们彼此都非常非常坦诚。
And you very unusually see a marriage in real time and what people are saying to each other.
你可以非常不寻常地实时看到婚姻以及人们互相说的话。
And when I read those lines, 10 different marriages that I know passed through my head: the bickering, the lying, the nasty things that people do to one another, the cruelties.
当我读到这些台词时，我所知道的 10 种不同的婚姻在我的脑海中闪过：争吵、谎言、人们对彼此所做的肮脏的事情、残忍的行为。
It all seemed very familiar.
这一切看起来都很熟悉。
How is it you think she managed his career from a distance, so to speak?
可以这么说，你认为她是如何远程管理他的职业生涯的？
Well, she was a really interesting woman.
嗯，她是一个非常有趣的女人。
She arrived in Johannesburg, 20 years old in the 1950s, where there was no reason to expect a woman to want a place in public life, particularly not in the prime of public life.
她在 20 世纪 50 年代抵达约翰内斯堡，当时没有理由期望女性想要在公共生活中占有一席之地，尤其是在公共生活的鼎盛时期。
And she was absolutely convinced that there was no position she should not occupy because she was a woman.
而且她坚信，没有什么职位是她不应该担任的，因为她是一个女人。
She wanted a place in politics; she wanted to exercise power.
她想在政坛占有一席之地；她想行使权力。
But she understood intuitively that in that time and place, the way to do that was through a man.
但她直觉地明白，在那个时间那个地点，要做到这一点的方法就是通过一个男人。
And she went after the most powerful rising political activists available.
她还追捕最有权力的新兴政治活动家。
I don’t think it was quite as cynical as that.
我不认为这是那么愤世嫉俗。
She loved him, but she absolutely wanted to exercise power, and that was a way to do it.
她爱他，但她绝对想行使权力，而这就是做到这一点的一种方式。
Once she became Mrs. Mandela, I think she had an enormously aristocratic sense of politics and of entitlement and legitimacy.
当她成为曼德拉夫人后，我认为她对政治、权利和合法性有着极大的贵族意识。
She understood herself to be South Africa’s leader by virtue of being married to him, and understood his and her reputations as her projects to endeavor to keep going.
她知道自己凭借与他的婚姻而成为南非的领导人，并理解他和她的声誉是她努力继续前进的项目。
And she did so brilliantly.
她做得非常出色。
She was unbelievably savvy.
她的悟性令人难以置信。
She understood the power of image like nobody else did, and at times saved them both from oblivion.
她比其他人更了解形象的力量，有时将他们俩从遗忘中拯救出来。
This is maybe a delicate question, but from a number of things I read, including your book, I get the impression that Winnie’s just flat out a bad person.
这可能是一个微妙的问题，但从我读过的很多东西，包括你的书，我得到的印象是温妮简直就是一个坏人。
If you look at the late 1980s, she’s involved in kidnappings.
如果你看看 20 世纪 80 年代末，你会发现她参与了绑架事件。
She endorses necklacing.
她赞同项链。
It’s one thing to be with some other men when your husband is in prison, but she seems to have an excessive number of affairs.
当你的丈夫在监狱里时，和其他男人在一起是一回事，但她似乎有太多的外遇。
She’s a borderline communist.
她是一个边缘共产主义者。
What’s the defense of her, so to speak?
可以这么说，她的辩护是什么？
Or is she just a bad person who did some important good things?
或者她只是一个做了一些重要好事的坏人？
Well, I think if you’re a biographer, you can’t really .
好吧，我认为如果你是传记作家，你真的不能。
.
。
.
。
It’s a bad starting point to think of somebody as a flat-out, bad person.
把某人视为彻头彻尾的坏人是一个糟糕的起点。
I don’t think you’re going to write a good book for them if that’s your starting point.
如果这是你的起点，我认为你不会为他们写一本好书。
But I’m a reader, right?
但我是一个读者，对吗？
You can be the biographer and have the complex view, but I’m the reader.
你可以是传记作者，有复杂的观点，但我是读者。
She did some chilling and scary stuff.
她做了一些令人毛骨悚然和可怕的事情。
The irony is that she was meant to be the great representative of the oppressed, but the people that she hurt were poor, young, Black, and defenseless.
讽刺的是，她本来是被压迫者的伟大代表，但她伤害的人却是穷人、年轻人、黑人和手无寸铁的人。
She was capable of terrible violence.
她有能力实施可怕的暴力。
But as a biographer, I’m also interested in the fact that she was capable of deep sympathy and love and commitment.
但作为一名传记作家，我也对她具有深切的同情、爱和承诺的能力感兴趣。
My puzzle was to put that all together in one psyche and one human being, and I think that in the end, I saw these amazing antinomies in her, not as contradictions, but as part of one psychic architecture.
我的困惑是将这一切整合到一个心灵和一个人身上，我认为最终，我在她身上看到了这些令人惊奇的矛盾，不是矛盾，而是一种心理结构的一部分。
Young Winnie and older Winnie — do you think it’s a big difference in terms of moral behavior?
年轻的维尼和年长的维尼 ——你认为道德行为上有很大差异吗？
Or she’s more or less the same quality person throughout?
或者她自始至终都或多或少是同一个人？
That’s a difficult one.
这是一件很难的事。
There are lots of underlying continuities.
有很多潜在的连续性。
One way to begin is with her family.
一种方法是与她的家人一起开始。
She was one of 11 children.
她是 11 个孩子之一。
She had unbelievably ambitious parents who are not scared to tell their children that “We’re going to pick winners among you, and we don’t care about the losers.” So, she understood from very early in life that the stakes were very, very high.
她有令人难以置信的雄心勃勃的父母，他们不害怕告诉他们的孩子“我们将从你们中挑选胜利者，我们不关心失败者。”所以，她从很小的时候就明白，赌注非常非常高。
She got into her father’s head and made sure that she occupied a prime, prime place there in order to be a favorite child.
她进入了父亲的头脑，确保自己占据了最重要的位置，以便成为最受宠爱的孩子。
And she lived her life that way.
她就这样过着自己的生活。
She had very, very weak boundaries.
她的界限非常非常薄弱。
She would need to be very intensely involved with somebody, to colonize their heads, to be inside them all the time.
她需要与某人密切接触，占据他们的头脑，始终处于他们的内心。
And that stretched throughout her life.
这贯穿了她的一生。
Unfortunately, it meant that she made for a very weak prisoner when she was being tortured because she allowed the man torturing her deep into her head, deep into her psyche.
不幸的是，这意味着当她受到酷刑时，她会成为一个非常软弱的囚犯，因为她允许这个男人深深地折磨她，深入她的头脑，深入她的心灵。
At one point, many years later, 15 years after she’d been tortured by him, he suddenly came up in an interview where she said, “He made me, I’m his child.
许多年后，在她被他折磨15年后，他突然在一次采访中出现，她说：“他创造了我，我是他的孩子。
I experienced his hatred at such close quarters that I began to hate him back.” And she presents that hatred as the fuel of her political activism.
我如此近距离地体验到了他的仇恨，以至于我开始也恨他。”她将这种仇恨视为她政治活动的燃料。
I don’t think that was in her at the beginning, but I do think that happened to her because of who she’d been at the beginning, if that makes sense.
我不认为她一开始就存在这种情况，但我确实认为这发生在她身上是因为她一开始就是这样的人，如果这有道理的话。
On Nelson’s masks
在纳尔逊的面具上
When it comes to Nelson, what do you think were the masks, and how did you get under those masks as you kept on writing the book?
说到尼尔森，你认为面具是什么？当你继续写这本书时，你是如何摆脱这些面具的？
There were just a formidable number of masks.
面具的数量多得惊人。
Nelson’s genius was to read the times and to present himself as a character he felt the times needed.
尼尔森的天才在于读懂时代，并将自己塑造成一个他认为时代需要的人物。
In the mid 1950s, when he was a Black lawyer, which self-represented something very powerful, he would dress in very expensive, tailored suits.
在 20 世纪 50 年代中期，当他还是一名黑人律师时，他代表着非常强大的力量，他会穿着非常昂贵的定制西装。
He would drive a fancy car.
他会开一辆豪华汽车。
He would have a beautiful young wife, and he understood that to be a Black man in the height of apartheid transmitting that image was politically powerful, that it had substance.
他会有一个年轻漂亮的妻子，他明白，作为一个处于种族隔离最严重时期的黑人，传播这一形象在政治上是强大的，它是有实质内容的。
When his organization was banned, he immediately changed the mask and really molded himself on Fidel Castro.
当他的组织被取缔时，他立即换下了面具，真正把自己塑造成菲德尔·卡斯特罗。
He grew his hair; he wore trench coats.
他留起了头发；他穿着风衣。
He was a military man.
他是一名军人。
When he went on trial in ’64, he recast himself as a martyr.
64 年受审时，他将自己重新塑造为烈士。
The most important and greatest mask he wore was in the 1990s to bring democracy to South Africa.
他戴上的最重要、最伟大的面具是在 20 世纪 90 年代为南非带来民主。
He himself personally at that time, felt that deep, deep raging anger at what had happened to him.
当时他本人对发生在自己身上的事情感到了深深的愤怒。
He felt that his life had been destroyed and was a tragedy.
他觉得自己的人生被毁了，是一场悲剧。
He was very sad, but he felt that if he brought that into politics as the leader of Black South Africa, he would lead his people to war.
他非常悲伤，但他觉得，如果他作为南非黑人领袖将其带入政治，他将带领他的人民走向战争。
So, the mask he wore was really the opposite of what he felt, as an avuncular old man.
所以，他所戴的面具与他作为一个慈祥老人的感觉截然相反。
He felt that to bring the country from the brink of civil war to a peaceful coexistence, he would have to present himself in the most unthreatening form that he knew.
他认为，为了使国家从内战边缘走向和平共处，他必须以他所知道的最不具威胁性的形式出现。
And he projected joy and cheerfulness when personally he was feeling anything but.
当他个人没有任何感觉时，他却表现出喜悦和快乐。
The capacity to wear that mask, that professionalism, that vocational certainty and to do it so well with very few hitches was quite remarkable.
戴上面具的能力、那种专业精神、那种职业确定性，以及在很少出现任何故障的情况下做得这么好，是相当了不起的。
What did you rediscover about South Africa writing this book?
写这本书时，您对南非有何重新发现？
I discovered how, essentially, South Africa didn’t really heal from the civil war that it fought in the 1980s.
我发现南非并没有真正从 20 世纪 80 年代的内战中恢复过来。
I thought that I knew about that, but delving into the minutiae of Winnie’s life in the late 1980s and the extreme violence which was surrounding her and in which she was involved, I understood that those wounds had never really quite healed, partly because of what didn’t happen next.
我以为我知道这一点，但深入研究温妮在 20 世纪 80 年代末生活的细节，以及她周围和她所参与的极端暴力，我明白这些伤口从未真正完全愈合，部分原因是接下来没有发生的事情。
It was a very sadly formative time in South African history.
这是南非历史上一个非常可悲的形成时期。
There are some societies that recover very quickly from extreme moments and others that don’t, and South Africa never quite did.
有些社会能够很快从极端时刻中恢复过来，而另一些社会则不然，而南非却从未做到过。
On the African National Congress
关于非洲国民大会
It surprised me in India how much in recent times, there’s been a move away from the heritage of Gandhi and simply assuming everything connected with Gandhi must be good.
令我惊讶的是，最近在印度，人们偏离了甘地的传统，简单地假设与甘地有关的一切都一定是好的。
To what extent is something like that going on in South Africa with the Mandelas, either or both of them?
在南非，曼德拉家族（无论是曼德拉家族还是曼德拉家族）在多大程度上发生了类似的事情？
It’s very much happening.
这种事正在发生。
Many educated middle-class young Black people have really quite decisively turned their back on Nelson Mandela.
许多受过教育的中产阶级年轻黑人确实非常果断地背弃了纳尔逊·曼德拉。
He’s associated with 30 years of ANC rule, which have not gone especially well.
他与非国大 30 年的统治有关，但进展并不顺利。
Young people legitimately ask what sort of deal he made in the early 1990s and whether it was the right one and whether it worked.
年轻人理所当然地会问他在 20 世纪 90 年代初期做了什么样的交易，是否正确以及是否有效。
He’s very, very much out of fashion among young people.
他在年轻人中非常非常不流行。
Winnie also, but perhaps less so.
温妮也有，但也许不那么重要。
There’s a middle-class populist constituency for radical politics in South Africa, and they take her as a lodestar.
南非有一个支持激进政治的中产阶级民粹主义选民，他们将她视为指路星。
They take her as a proponent of a violent revolution that ought to have happened that never did.
他们认为她是一场本应发生但从未发生的暴力革命的支持者。
I don’t think that there are a huge amount of people, but they’re vocal and there are a fair number of them.
我认为人数不多，但他们发声，而且数量相当多。
What did go wrong with the ANC?
ANC 出了什么问题？
I think the ANC governed reasonably well for 15 years.
我认为非国大 15 年来的治理相当不错。
They were very lucky that they caught a commodity supercycle.
他们非常幸运，抓住了商品超级周期。
They benefited greatly from China’s rise.
他们从中国的崛起中获益匪浅。
And in the first 15 years of democracy, literally everybody did better.
在民主的头 15 年里，实际上每个人都做得更好。
The bottom two deciles of South African society were earning about twice as much as they did at the end of apartheid.
南非社会最底层的两个十分之一的人的收入大约是种族隔离结束时的两倍。
And the ANC managed that wave reasonably well, built a reasonably sunk state.
非国大很好地应对了这一浪潮，建立了一个相当沉没的国家。
What happened in 2007, 2008 is that there was something of a revolution inside the ANC.
2007年和2008年发生的事情是非国大内部发生了一场革命。
The thwarted, frustrated provincial middle-class essentially took over the organization and the state, and their politics was pretty nihilistic.
受阻、沮丧的省级中产阶级基本上接管了组织和国家，他们的政治相当虚无主义。
They were very, very racially brittle people.
他们是非常非常种族脆弱的人。
They didn’t believe that anybody else was capable of building a future in such a difficult country.
他们不相信其他人有能力在如此困难的国家建设未来。
And they began fleecing the states through their position in power and in the bureaucracy.
他们开始通过自己的权力地位和官僚机构敲诈各州。
It was tragic to see.
看到这真是悲惨。
As I’m sure you know, there’s been plenty of discourse in the United States over the last year about Afrikaner farmers, claims about how many are being murdered or having their land taken.
我相信你知道，去年美国有很多关于南非荷兰语农民的讨论，声称有多少人被谋杀或他们的土地被征用。
Set us straight on what you think is really going on.
让我们了解您认为真正发生的事情。
Well, white Afrikaner farmers are not being murdered in huge numbers, but what is happening is .
好吧，白人南非荷兰语农民并没有被大量谋杀，但正在发生的事情却是。
.
。
.
。
The vast majority of people who are murdered in South Africa are young, black and unemployed, and it’s incontestable.
在南非被谋杀的绝大多数是年轻人、黑人和失业者，这是无可争议的。
That is statistically shown again and again.
统计数据一次又一次地证明了这一点。
The majority of the violence is in the ghettos, but it spills out in a very meaningful way into the suburbs and into the middle classes.
大部分暴力发生在贫民窟，但它以一种非常有意义的方式蔓延到郊区和中产阶级。
Middle-class South Africans experience a degree of crime and a degree of violence which their counterparts in the developed world do not.
南非中产阶级经历了一定程度的犯罪和暴力，而发达国家的中产阶级却没有经历过这种程度的犯罪和暴力。
And that is very scary.
这非常可怕。
It’s particularly scary when through all the years of the 20th century, the suburbs and the middle classes were largely protected from violence.
尤其可怕的是，在 20 世纪的所有岁月里，郊区和中产阶级在很大程度上都受到保护，免受暴力侵害。
So, to be a white farmer in South Africa is to face a degree of threats of violence which is scary, but the idea that they are victimized, that there’s a genocide is absolutely insane.
因此，作为南非的白人农民，要面临一定程度的可怕的暴力威胁，但认为他们是受害者、发生种族灭绝的想法绝对是疯狂的。
One hears from a distance that the judiciary is the part of South African government that has held up the best over all these troubles.
人们从远处就听说，司法部门是南非政府的一部分，在所有这些麻烦中表现得最好。
Do you agree with that?
你同意吗？
And if so, why?
如果是这样，为什么？
The judiciary’s independence has held up, but its quality has not held up.
司法机构的独立性得以维持，但其质量却未能维持。
It certainly has not caved and done the executive’s bidding, and you ask why.
它当然没有屈服并执行高管的命令，你会问为什么。
That is probably because of a very deep and old legal tradition going back to the apartheid years and before, a legal culture which insisted on independence from the apartheid state and which made the apartheid government’s life very difficult.
这可能是因为一种可以追溯到种族隔离时代及之前的非常深厚和古老的法律传统，一种坚持独立于种族隔离国家的法律文化，这使得种族隔离政府的生活变得非常困难。
That’s great, and it’s been a treasure, but the quality of judiciary, as with every other public institution in South Africa, is much weaker than it was 10 years ago.
这很好，而且是一笔财富，但与南非所有其他公共机构一样，司法部门的质量比 10 年前要弱得多。
And that is a result of that revolution I was talking about in 2007–08, of inside the ruling party, a very different group of people coming to power.
这是我在 2007-08 年谈论的那场革命的结果，是执政党内部一群截然不同的人上台执政的结果。
On optimism and pessimism for South Africa
南非的乐观与悲观
What does the optimistic case for South Africa look like?
南非的乐观情况是什么样的？
Because you’ve said some fairly pessimistic things, yet from my point of view, the one time I went, things were doing a bit better than I was expecting.
因为你说了一些相当悲观的事情，但从我的角度来看，我去的那一次，情况比我预期的要好一些。
Admittedly, I went to Cape Town, but I thought, well, there’d be electricity shortages all the time.
诚然，我去了开普敦，但我想，好吧，那里会一直缺电。
There weren’t.
没有。
There seems to be some capacity for renewal and self-improvement in the system, or is that just my delusion?
系统里似乎有某种更新和自我完善的能力，还是只是我的错觉？
No, it’s not your delusion at all.
不，这根本不是你的错觉。
I’m replying to your questions, and maybe that’s what makes me sound more pessimistic than I am.
我正在回答你的问题，也许这让我听起来比实际情况更悲观。
But I think that what South Africa has — which is quite remarkable given what’s happened to it over the last 15, 20 years — is it has a very solid political center which is very hard to dislodge, and a pretty sane liberal-minded political center.
但我认为南非所拥有的——“考虑到过去 15 年、20 年发生的事情，这是相当了不起的”——它拥有一个非常坚实、难以撼动的政治中心，以及一个相当理智、具有自由主义思想的政治中心。
It’s guaranteed 25 percent, 30 percent of the vote every election and is expanding.
每次选举都保证获得 25%、30% 的选票，并且还在扩大。
That gives a fairly solid rational basis to govern the country well into the future.
这为未来治理国家提供了相当坚实的理性基础。
A lot of the stuff that fell apart between 2010 and 2020 can be rebuilt, basic stuff like logistics and electricity and the basic plumbing of the country.
2010 年至 2020 年间崩溃的很多设施都可以重建，比如物流、电力以及国家的基本管道等基本设施。
It’s being very slow to rebuild, but it can be rebuilt.
重建速度非常慢，但可以重建。
Whether it can do more than that, whether it can actually flourish depends on something much more ambitious.
它是否能做得更多，是否能真正蓬勃发展，取决于更雄心勃勃的事情。
And that includes rebuilding a civil service which is really, really on its knees and whose personnel are animated by a very destructive ideology.
这包括重建一个真正已经崩溃的公务员队伍，其人员受到极具破坏性的意识形态的激励。
And for the politics for that sort of renewal to be in place — we are not there now.
而要实现这种更新的政治 —— 我们现在还没有到位。
And that may take some time, if it ever happens.
如果真的发生的话，这可能需要一些时间。
So, I’m not despairing.
所以，我并不绝望。
I think that some modest improvement is possible and probable, but it is modest until something more fundamental changes.
我认为一些适度的改进是可能的，但在发生更根本性的变化之前，这种改进是适度的。
Should I buy land there?
我应该在那里买土地吗？
Let’s say I were a person of means.
假设我是一个有钱的人。
It depends where.
这取决于在哪里。
You could certainly buy land in Cape Town.
您当然可以在开普敦购买土地。
Its value will probably increase.
它的价值可能会增加。
Yeah, it’s a big country.
是的，这是一个大国。
It depends where you’re going to be.
这取决于你要去哪里。
I asked GPT what happened with land prices in Durban.
我询问 GPT 德班的土地价格发生了什么变化。
Now, some while ago, people used to tell me Durban was a fantastic place.
不久前，人们常常告诉我德班是一个很棒的地方。
I’ve never been there.
我从来没有去过那里。
And over a few decades, it seems land prices have fallen 20 percent, 25 percent, which is unusual in this world, right?
几十年来，地价似乎下降了20%、25%，这在这个世界上是不寻常的，对吧？
Land has become a lot more valuable.
土地变得更有价值了。
It’s one of the largest cities.
它是最大的城市之一。
What exactly went wrong with Durban?
德班到底出了什么问题？
It’s also one of the cities that I don’t know best, Tyler, but I think that the main issue is absolutely shocking local-government management, and that is a symptom of the corruption of the ruling party.
这也是我不太了解的城市之一，泰勒，但我认为主要问题绝对是令人震惊的地方政府管理，这是执政党腐败的症状。
Local governments in Johannesburg and in Durban and in one or two other major cities have been ruined, and the result is that the basic infrastructure of the place is deteriorating over time.
约翰内斯堡、德班以及其他一两个主要城市的地方政府已被摧毁，其结果是该地区的基础设施随着时间的推移而不断恶化。
The result is that commerce flees that.
结果是商业逃避了这一点。
The cost of doing business escalates.
做生意的成本不断上升。
So yeah, a great deal of South Africa’s problems are about the nitty-gritty of governance at local and regional levels.
是的，南非的很多问题都与地方和区域层面治理的本质有关。
How has the struggle against HIV AIDS gone?
抗击艾滋病的斗争进展如何？
It’s gone remarkably well if you consider that 25 years ago, 20 years ago, something like 25 percent of the population was HIV positive.
如果你考虑到 25 年前、20 年前，大约 25% 的人口是艾滋病毒阳性，那就太好了。
Anti-retroviral treatment, which at the time nobody was sure whether South African health service could administer, they did administer.
当时没有人确定南非卫生服务部门是否可以进行抗逆转录病毒治疗，但他们确实进行了治疗。
Several million people went onto treatment.
数百万人接受了治疗。
That was a sign of state capacity that really could work despite the fact that we had a president who is an AIDS denialist.
这是国家能力的一个标志，尽管我们的总统是一位否认艾滋病的人，但它确实可以发挥作用。
So that was an extraordinary achievement.
所以这是一项非凡的成就。
Do you think there’s any chance of a Zimbabwe-like scenario for South Africa?
您认为南非有可能出现类似津巴布韦的情况吗？
Or that is unimaginable to you?
或者说这对你来说是难以想象的？
It’s not unimaginable.
这并非不可想象。
It is much more unlikely.
这是不太可能的。
What Zimbabwe didn’t have was 30 percent of the electorate always voting for the center.
津巴布韦没有的是 30% 的选民总是投票给中间派。
It’s probably South Africa’s saving grace.
这可能是南非的救星。
To try and do in South Africa what was done in Zimbabwe would be very, very hard.
尝试在南非做在津巴布韦所做的事情将是非常非常困难的。
There would be concerted resistance from across the society.
社会各界将齐心协力抵制。
It would be very, very hard.
这将非常非常困难。
If we think about the South African economy, my sense is there’s ongoing de-industrialization.
如果我们考虑一下南非的经济，我的感觉是去工业化正在持续进行。
Mining at times does very well.
采矿有时效果很好。
It may have a very bright future with all this investment in hardware.
凭借对硬件的所有这些投资，它可能会有一个非常光明的未来。
Agriculture may have a very bright future as we’re seeing, say, in Brazil.
正如我们在巴西看到的那样，农业可能有一个非常光明的未来。
And if the economic future of South Africa is many more exports of agricultural products and mining outputs, do you worry that’s bad for income inequality?
如果南非的经济未来是更多的农产品和采矿产品出口，您是否担心这对收入不平等不利？
Or am I not identifying the issue correctly?
还是我没有正确识别问题？
No, I think that you’re right.
不，我认为你是对的。
I think that agriculture has been a great success over the last 30 years and can be much, much more successful.
我认为农业在过去 30 年里取得了巨大成功，而且还可以取得更大的成功。
Mining has been a bit of a disaster because it’s been very badly managed by public policy, but there is potentially — with different politics — a great future in that.
采矿业有点像一场灾难，因为公共政策对它的管理非常糟糕，但它有潜在的“在不同的政治背景下”的美好未来。
Could it produce more inequality?
它会造成更多的不平等吗？
South Africa’s great, great problem is human capital and its incapacity to build an education system which is going to make the majority of the population employable in more than unskilled labor.
南非最大的问题是人力资本，以及它没有能力建立一个教育体系，使大多数人口能够从事非熟练劳动力以外的工作。
That is probably the blockage to a more equal country.
这可能是建立一个更加平等的国家的障碍。
Do you think Johannesburg is still artistically robust?
您认为约翰内斯堡的艺术气息依然浓厚吗？
People tell me it is, that for an art scene, it’s hard to do much better.
人们告诉我，对于艺术界来说，很难做得更好。
It’s fascinating.
这很有趣。
Yeah, it’s amazingly so.
是的，真是太神奇了。
Music, fine art, theater — yeah, it’s probably more robust than it’s ever been.
音乐、美术、戏剧——是的，它可能比以往任何时候都更加强大。
So, let’s say I go there, and I want to take in these art scenes.
所以，假设我去了那里，我想欣赏这些艺术场景。
What’s the way that I do that that is more or less physically safe?
我采取什么方式才能或多或少地保证人身安全？
Because I do want to go there and do that.
因为我确实想去那里做那件事。
Well, there’s a sample of different stuff that you need to take in.
嗯，有一些不同的东西需要你接受。
One would be to go to Soweto and to its jazz scene, and you don’t need to do too much to keep yourself safe.
其中之一是去索韦托和那里的爵士乐现场，您不需要做太多事情来保证自己的安全。
You go on an organized tour.
您参加有组织的旅行。
There are many, many tour guides who would take you to see jazz.
有很多很多导游会带你去看爵士乐。
If you know local people, you go with local people.
如果你认识当地人，你就和当地人一起去。
Another is the music scene just north of downtown Johannesburg, around Braamfontein.
另一个是约翰内斯堡市中心以北布拉姆方丹周围的音乐场景。
Again, you can get an Uber and go to your venue, and listen to your music, and go home without too much fear.
再说一次，你可以叫一辆优步去你的场地，听听音乐，然后回家，不用太害怕。
But if this is like some parts of Brazil — and I’m not saying it is — but I would be afraid even to walk out of the private car into the door of the club, that there’d be a reasonable chance I’d be mugged even in that 30-second interval.
但如果这就像巴西的某些地方一样————我不是说是这样————但我什至会害怕走出私家车走进俱乐部门口，即使在这 30 秒的时间间隔里，我也很有可能被抢劫。
You’re saying it’s not like that?
你说不是这样的？
Yeah, it’s not like that.
是的，不是那样的。
I do that all the time without fear.
我一直这样做，毫无恐惧。
Everybody I know does that all the time without fear.
我认识的每个人都一直这样做，毫无恐惧。
And to see visual arts, what do I do there?
要观看视觉艺术，我该怎么办？
The visual arts are not as strong at the moment.
目前视觉艺术还没有那么强大。
There are a couple of renowned galleries that you could go to.
您可以前往几家著名的画廊。
There are also a couple of really interesting museums.
还有一些非常有趣的博物馆。
There’s an apartheid museum.
有一个种族隔离博物馆。
There’s a constitutional court museum.
有一个宪法法院博物馆。
Both have really interesting collections.
两者都有非常有趣的收藏。
I would do that.
我会那么做。
Why does William Kentridge still live in Johannesburg?
为什么威廉·肯特里奇仍然住在约翰内斯堡？
Indeed, in his childhood home, I hear.
确实，我在他童年的家里听到过。
I have absolutely no idea.
我完全不知道。
I just read what he writes and says about it, which is that he wants to live somewhere very interesting, somewhere fluid.
我刚刚读了他写的和说的，那就是他想住在一个非常有趣、流动的地方。
I think I remember him once saying that in South Africa, you’ll stop your car at a traffic light, and you’re watching a small-scale civil war around you, and that’s interesting.
我记得他曾经说过，在南非，你会在红绿灯前停下车，然后你就会看到周围有一场小规模的内战，这很有趣。
And you’ve thought of moving back but decided not to?
您想过搬回来但又决定不搬吗？
Yeah, I did actually move back briefly 10 years ago and left again.
是的，十年前我确实短暂搬回过一次，然后又离开了。
It wasn’t so much about the country as about a lot of personal matters.
这与其说是关于国家，不如说是关于很多个人事务。
As a South African and, of course, a scholar of South Africa, do you feel there are things you at least might understand about Elon Musk that non-South Africans would miss?
作为一名南非人，当然，也是一名南非学者，您是否觉得您至少可能了解埃隆·马斯克的一些非南非人会怀念的事情？
It’s a puzzle to me.
这对我来说是一个谜。
South Africans are very preoccupied with Elon Musk and Peter Thiel and their South African connection.
南非人非常关注埃隆·马斯克和彼得·蒂尔以及他们与南非的联系。
I honestly don’t know.
老实说我不知道。
I do think that I’m more or less the same age as Musk.
我确实认为我和马斯克的年龄差不多。
He grew up maybe 50 kilometers away from where I did.
他长大的地方离我家大约50公里。
There was something about 1980 South Africa, where everybody knew that the old order would not last very much longer, that a new order was on its way.
1980 年的南非发生了一些事情，每个人都知道旧秩序不会持续太久，新秩序即将到来。
And certainly, in my circles, that produced a kind of an excitement about first principle thinking, about having no shibboleths, about imagining the unimaginable.
当然，在我的圈子里，这产生了一种对第一原理思维、对没有陈词滥调、对难以想象的事物的兴奋。
It’s quite possible that he took that with him.
他很可能把它带走了。
It was certainly enormously formative for me.
这对我来说无疑是非常重要的。
Beyond that, I’m not sure.
除此之外，我不确定。
I don’t know Musk, but I’ve thought for a while that his desire to settle Mars is perhaps a uniquely South African impulse, the notion that people need somewhere they can escape to.
我不认识马斯克，但我想了一段时间，他想要定居火星的愿望可能是南非独有的冲动，即人们需要一个可以逃避的地方。
I’m skeptical of those thoughts.
我对这些想法持怀疑态度。
I mean, there are a lot of them, a lot of similar thoughts.
我的意思是，有很多类似的想法。
It seems too obvious to me.
对我来说这似乎太明显了。
I think that human beings are always more interesting than you imagine them when you actually sit down with them and talk to them.
我认为当你真正坐下来与他们交谈时，人类总是比你想象的更有趣。
What do we learn about South Africa from how the country handled COVID?
从南非处理新冠疫情的方式中，我们可以了解到该国哪些信息？
I watched the President Cyril Ramaphosa lock the country down using the military, and he’s a very, very eloquent and charming man and a very powerful speaker when he needs to be.
我看到西里尔·拉马福萨总统使用军队封锁了国家，他是一个非常非常有口才和魅力的人，在需要的时候也是一个非常有影响力的演讲者。
I remember him addressing the army and telling them that they need to be kind, that they are the army and that they do have weapons.
我记得他向军队讲话，告诉他们需要友善，他们是军队，他们确实拥有武器。
But this is about a health risk, not a security risk.
但这是健康风险，而不是安全风险。
And yet, watching what happened next was devastating.
然而，接下来发生的事情却是毁灭性的。
It was a hard, hard lockdown.
这是一次非常非常严格的封锁。
It lasted much, much, much longer than it ought have to.
它持续的时间比应有的时间长得多、多得多。
It worked fine for middle-class people.
这对于中产阶级来说效果很好。
Poor people suffered enormously, both in the short term and in the long term.
穷人无论是在短期还是长期都遭受了巨大的痛苦。
And you had the irony of a government that was once, long ago, a liberation movement, feeling overly paternalistic, much, much too statist, feeling that it needed anxiously to control a situation.
具有讽刺意味的是，一个很久以前曾经是一场解放运动的政府，感觉过于家长式作风，太集权主义，感觉它需要急切地控制局势。
And the result is that it hurt its own people gratuitously.
结果就是无端伤害了自己的人民。
So, it was sad to watch.
所以，看着很伤心。
And you think it was just error?
你认为这只是错误吗？
I think in the beginning it was fear.
我想一开始是因为恐惧。
I don’t think there was a single case in South Africa when the lockdown began.
我认为封锁开始时南非没有一例病例。
It was in the collective imagination that something really awful might happen, which has been part of South Africa’s collective imagination for a long, long time.
在集体想象中，可能会发生一些真正可怕的事情，这长期以来一直是南非集体想象的一部分。
So, I think initially it was fear.
所以，我认为最初是恐惧。
And in the end, I think it was a group of people in Ramaphosa’s cabinet who had been itching for serious state intervention for a long time and saw the opportunity, not in a cynical way, but because that’s what they believed they should do.
最后，我认为拉马福萨内阁中的一群人长期以来一直渴望进行认真的国家干预，并看到了这个机会，不是以愤世嫉俗的方式，而是因为他们认为这是他们应该做的。
And so, you had a very raw, very blunt statist mentality given the lease of life that it wouldn’t have had outside of an epidemic.
因此，你有一种非常原始、非常直率的国家主义心态，因为它在流行病之外不会有生命力。
How is fiction writing going in South Africa these days?
最近南非的小说创作进展如何？
Are there people I should read?
有我应该读的人吗？
Well, I think some of the best fiction in South Africa was written after the end of apartheid.
嗯，我认为南非一些最好的小说是在种族隔离结束后写的。
One book that stands out is by an Afrikaans writer, Marlene van Niekerk.
其中一本脱颖而出的书是南非荷兰语作家马琳·范尼凯克 (Marlene van Niekerk) 写的。
I think the book in English has two titles, depending where it is.
我认为这本英文书有两个标题，具体取决于它在哪里。
One is Agaat; the other is The Way of the Women.
其一是阿加特；另一个是《妇女之路》。
It takes place in the head of a dying woman who has motor neurone disease and cannot communicate or move.
它发生在一位患有运动神经元疾病、无法交流或移动的垂死妇女的头部。
All she can do is make eye contact with her carer, who is a Coloured woman who has worked with the family all her life.
她所能做的就是与她的护理人员进行眼神交流，她的护理人员是一位有色人种女性，一生都在与这个家庭一起工作。
And through this very intense, wordless interaction, a very complicated story about a country comes together.
通过这种非常激烈、无言的互动，一个关于一个国家的非常复杂的故事汇集在一起。
It’s an extraordinary book.
这是一本非凡的书。
I think it’s a work of genius.
我认为这是一部天才之作。
And you think those traditions are still alive and well?
您认为这些传统仍然存在吗？
Or do you have a sense of that?
或者你有这样的感觉吗？
Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if the best South African novels are in the future.
是的，如果最好的南非小说出现在未来，我不会感到惊讶。
The traditions are very much alive and well.
这些传统仍然非常活跃。
And what accounts for that vitality?
是什么造成了这种活力？
Is it the sense that the stakes are high?
是不是感觉赌注很高？
Because when I read South African fiction, which I know only a little, it never seems obsessed with trivialities, I would say.
因为当我读南非小说时，我对南非小说知之甚少，我想说，它似乎从来不沉迷于琐事。
It is partly because the stakes are high.
部分原因是赌注很高。
It’s also just a very long tradition now.
现在这也是一个非常悠久的传统。
This was a country of nationalisms, and nationalisms get very, very serious about their literary figures and about their literature.
这是一个民族主义的国家，民族主义对他们的文学人物和文学非常非常重视。
It’s in the country’s DNA to produce writers and for writers to be very serious in the world around them.
培养作家以及作家对周围世界非常严肃的态度是这个国家的基因。
It was part of the Afrikaner Nationalist Project.
这是南非荷兰语民族主义项目的一部分。
It was part of the Black Nationalist Project.
这是黑人民族主义项目的一部分。
It was an idea that to write is to be deeply serious; it’s a classic old trait of old nationalisms.
这是一种观念，即写作必须非常严肃。这是旧民族主义的典型特征。
On his forthcoming biography of Cecil Rhodes
关于他即将出版的塞西尔·罗德斯传记
And for you next — you’re writing a biography of Cecil Rhodes.
接下来，你正在写一本塞西尔·罗德斯的传记。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Yeah, that’s right.
是的，没错。
Now, as I’m sure you know, there’s one that just came out by William Storey, The Colonialist.
现在，我相信你知道，《殖民主义者》威廉·斯托里刚刚出版了一本。
Yeah.
是的。
What will you do that he doesn’t?
你会做什么他不会做的事？
Mine is considerably more intimate.
我的要亲密得多。
I was initially intrigued by the commonplace that he was gay, and how a gay man — if he was gay — came to exercise the power he did, what the connections were between the very intimates and the very public.
最初，我对他是同性恋这一普遍现象很感兴趣，以及一个同性恋者——“如果他是同性恋的话”——如何行使他所拥有的权力，以及最亲密的人和公众之间的联系。
That was my starting point.
这是我的出发点。
The subject matter shifted as I learned more and more about him.
随着我对他的了解越来越多，主题发生了变化。
I thought the idea that he was gay became more and more complicated.
我认为他是同性恋的想法变得越来越复杂。
His very idea of what a private life should be was deeply strange to me.
他对私人生活的想法对我来说非常奇怪。
It took a long time to get my head around it.
我花了很长时间才明白这一点。
But yes, I think it’s both a much more intimate book and also a grander book in the sense that I tried to understand the geopolitics at the time and the place that he found in it.
但是，是的，我认为这既是一本更亲密的书，也是一本更宏大的书，因为我试图理解当时的地缘政治以及他在书中发现的地方。
Was he gay?
他是同性恋吗？
I don’t think that he understood himself as gay.
我认为他并不认为自己是同性恋。
And I suspect that he never had sex with anybody, man or woman, although I don’t know.
我怀疑他从未与任何人发生过性关系，无论是男人还是女人，尽管我不知道。
But I certainly think that looking at it as an outsider, he was in love with some of the young men around him, and that love was very important.
但我当然认为，从一个局外人的角度来看，他爱上了他周围的一些年轻人，这种爱非常重要。
It was formative, it was shaping.
它是形成性的，它是塑造性的。
One reads that, at first, he did not want women to come to what became Rhodesia.
有人读到，一开始，他不希望女性来到后来的罗得西亚。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
At the very, very beginning because the people he sent into Rhodesia were doubling.
一开始，因为他派往罗德西亚的人增加了一倍。
They were settlers, but they were soldiers.
他们是定居者，但他们也是士兵。
They were a military, and they were a prospective farming class.
他们是军人，他们是未来的农民阶级。
They doubled up, and he didn’t see a place for women in a force that may be an invading force, but he certainly wanted women soon afterwards.
他们加倍努力，他没有看到女性在一支可能是入侵力量的力量中占有一席之地，但他很快就想要女性。
As soon as settlement became viable, he wanted women.
一旦定居可行，他就想要女人。
And why is Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, settled so much later than South Africa?
为什么罗得西亚（现在的津巴布韦）比南非晚得多？
By Whites that is.
白人就是这样。
Well, White people settled at the southern reaches of the Cape in the mid 17th century, largely because its rainfall patterns and climate were Mediterranean, and it didn’t have malaria.
17 世纪中叶，白人在开普敦南部定居，主要是因为这里的降雨模式和气候属于地中海气候，而且没有疟疾。
It didn’t have diseases that were going to kill White people.
它没有会杀死白人的疾病。
There was a northern march beginning at the beginning of the 18th century, and it finally got as far as current-day Zimbabwe towards the end of the 19th century.
18世纪初开始有一次向北进军，19世纪末终于到达现在的津巴布韦。
So, it was simply about a northern movement of White people in an attenuated way, not dissimilar to the western movement of White people in America.
因此，这只是白人以一种减弱的方式向北迁移，与美国白人向西迁移没有什么不同。
And the English families that moved there in the 1920s — are they just foolish or was it —
而那些在 1920 年代搬到那里的英国家庭 — 他们只是愚蠢还是 —
You mean in the 1820s?
你是说1820年代吗？
No, the 1920s.
不，是 20 年代。
A lot of English families moved there after World War I.
第一次世界大战后，许多英国家庭搬到了那里。
To Zimbabwe, to Rhodesia?
去津巴布韦、罗得西亚？
Yeah, whatever one wishes to call it.
是的，无论人们想怎么称呼它。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Are they just foolish to think that can work?
他们是否愚蠢地认为这可行？
No, by the 1920s it was working.
不，到了 20 年代，它已经发挥作用了。
Rhodesia was, for the first time, a successful staple exporter.
罗得西亚首次成为成功的主食出口国。
It was earning foreign currency.
它正在赚取外币。
It had a pretty strong state by then.
那时候已经是相当强大的状态了。
It had those sorts of institutions that White middle-class people could be nourished by.
它有那些可以滋养白人中产阶级的机构。
It was politically docile.
它在政治上是温顺的。
I don’t think they were foolish at all.
我认为他们一点也不傻。
I think that they ended up living quite good lives.
我认为他们最终过上了美好的生活。
Are you optimistic about Botswana?
您对博茨瓦纳持乐观态度吗？
Botswana is at an inflection point.
博茨瓦纳正处于拐点。
It’s just had a change of government for the first time since 1966.
它刚刚经历了自 1966 年以来的首次政府更迭。
It has been reliant on diamond revenue, and the diamond industry is in trouble.
它一直依赖钻石收入，钻石行业陷入困境。
I think it’s going to take a political class to negotiate this period very deftly.
我认为需要政治阶层才能非常巧妙地度过这一时期。
I don’t know whether they will.
我不知道他们是否会。
It’s a difficult moment.
这是一个困难的时刻。
Namibia — optimistic?
纳米比亚 — 乐观吗？
I think Namibia, a bit like South Africa, goes on.
我认为纳米比亚，有点像南非，正在继续发展。
It doesn’t grow very quickly.
它增长得不是很快。
It doesn’t fall apart.
它不会分崩离析。
It’s a hard place.
这是一个艰难的地方。
There’s a lot of crime, a lot of unemployment.
有很多犯罪，很多失业。
That’s probably South Africa’s future too.
这可能也是南非的未来。
Not coming apart at the seams, but not flourishing.
没有在接缝处分崩离析，但也没有蓬勃发展。
On where to visit in South Africa
关于南非的旅游景点
And for our listeners, let’s say someone wants to visit South Africa, and other than safari — put that aside — of course, everyone should do that, but what in your view, is something like an ideal two-week trip around South Africa?
对于我们的听众来说，假设有人想去南非旅行，除了游猎 —— 把这个放在一边 —— 当然，每个人都应该这样做，但在你看来，理想的南非两周旅行是什么呢？
Where should someone go and why?
人们应该去哪里以及为什么？
Well, I’d go to Cape Town because it is, to my mind, one of the most beautiful cities in the world.
好吧，我会去开普敦，因为在我看来，它是世界上最美丽的城市之一。
You’ve been to Cape Town.
你去过开普敦。
What did you make of it?
你对此有何感想？
Yes, but only Cape Town.
是的，但仅限开普敦。
Fantastic.
极好的。
And I’m hoping to go back this March and take my sister and possibly my wife.
我希望今年三月回去，带上我的妹妹，可能还有我的妻子。
Well, from Cape Town, I would drive eastwards along the coast for a long way, for as much as 2,000 kilometers, until you start moving up the east coast and towards the old Transkei.
嗯，从开普敦出发，我会沿着海岸向东行驶很长一段路，长达 2,000 公里，直到开始沿着东海岸向旧特兰斯凯行驶。
The coastline is absolutely spectacular all the way.
一路上的海岸线绝对是壮观。
It’s just an affront of natural beauty, mile after mile after mile.
这只是对自然美景的侮辱，一英里又一英里。
And if you get as far as the Transkei, you will also just, socially, see the densest rural zone of South Africa.
如果您到达特兰斯凯，您还可以从社交角度看到南非人口最稠密的农村地区。
You will see the history of the country.
你会看到这个国家的历史。
You will see that old apartheid zone that was meant to be its own quasi-sovereign state back in the old days and what it looks like.
您将看到那个古老的种族隔离地区，它在过去本应成为自己的准主权国家，以及它的样子。
And that drive is relatively safe?
那开车比较安全吗？
Yeah, that drive is pretty safe.
是的，开车很安全。
And where should I go then?
那我应该去哪里呢？
How long did you say you have?
你说你还有多久？
Say two weeks.
说两周吧。
This is for all our listeners.
这是给我们所有听众的。
I know what I’m going to do, but I’m going to go to Durban, too.
我知道我要做什么，但我也要去德班。
It depends what you like.
这取决于你喜欢什么。
You could also drive west and north from Cape Town up the west coast, which is semi-desert and very beautiful.
您还可以从开普敦向西和向北行驶，沿着西海岸行驶，那里是半沙漠，非常美丽。
I would definitely go to Johannesburg.
我肯定会去约翰内斯堡。
It is a lively, quite wild, very, very vibrant city, by far South Africa’s most vibrant city.
这是一座充满活力、相当狂野、非常非常有活力的城市，是迄今为止南非最具活力的城市。
If you like music, you must go there.
如果你喜欢音乐，你一定要去那里。
And I should stay in the suburbs or in the center city?
我应该留在郊区还是市中心？
How do I do that?
我该怎么做？
I think you should stay in the suburbs, but not too far out.
我认为你应该住在郊区，但不要太远。
Johannesburg is urban sprawl, and you don’t want to be in the midst of the sprawl.
约翰内斯堡是一个城市扩张的城市，您不想置身于城市扩张之中。
You want to be in one of the suburbs just to the north or the west of downtown, which makes you pretty central.
您想要位于市中心以北或以西的郊区之一，这使您处于中心位置。
You can pretty much go to wherever is interesting within a 20-, 25-minute Uber ride.
您几乎可以在 20 或 25 分钟的优步车程内到达任何有趣的地方。
That’s where I’d stay.
那就是我要住的地方。
I definitely wouldn’t miss Johannesburg.
我绝对不会错过约翰内斯堡。
I really, really wouldn’t miss anywhere in South Africa because I was afraid of crime.
我真的、真的不会错过南非的任何地方，因为我害怕犯罪。
Crime is zoned.
犯罪已分区。
It is ghettoed.
它是贫民区。
There are ways to move around quite safely if one doesn’t do anything stupid.
如果一个人不做任何愚蠢的事情，有一些方法可以非常安全地四处走动。
Now, you mentioned the biography of Rhodes, but just to close, I will ask, what else do you think of yourself as doing over the next — I don’t know — 10, 15 years?
现在，你提到了罗德的传记，但在结束之前，我想问一下，你认为自己在接下来的 — 我不知道 — 10、15年里还会做什么？
You’re young, you’re very productive.
你很年轻，你很有生产力。
What else?
还有什么？
Well, I’ve finished a draft of the Rhodes book, and I am dabbling at the next book, and I’m not exactly sure what it’s going to be, but I’m rooting through archives in Johannesburg for the mid-apartheid period.
好吧，我已经完成了罗德书的草稿，我正在涉足下一本书，我不太确定它会是什么，但我正在查阅约翰内斯堡中期种族隔离时期的档案。
So about Southern Africa in some way?
那么南部非洲在某种程度上呢？
Yes.
是的。
The next one is definitely going to be about Southern Africa for sure, and probably historical.
下一部肯定是关于南部非洲的，而且可能是历史性的。
And you think you’ll write about Southern Africa for the rest of your life?
您认为您会用余生来写关于南部非洲的文章吗？
Well, as you say, I’m young, and hopefully, the rest of my life will be a long time.
好吧，正如你所说，我还年轻，希望我的余生会很长。
So, who knows.
所以，谁知道呢。
I’m not somebody who plans into the future very long, and I hope that I can take myself by surprise.
我不是一个对未来有长远规划的人，我希望我能给自己一个惊喜。
I hope that we can all do that.
我希望我们都能做到。
For listeners, I’ll recommend again Jonny’s book, Winnie and Nelson: Portrait of a Marriage, one of my favorite books of the last 10 years.
对于听众，我会再次推荐乔尼的书《温妮和尼尔森：婚姻的肖像》，这是我过去十年来最喜欢的书之一。
Jonny Steinberg, thank you very much.
乔尼·斯坦伯格，非常感谢你。
Thanks, Tyler.
谢谢，泰勒。