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Jonathan GPT Swift on Jonathan Swift (Ep. 175 - BONUS)

乔纳森·GPT 斯威夫特谈乔纳森·斯威夫特(第 175 集 - 赠品)
2023-03-23 | 官方页面 YouTube
COWEN

Hello everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.

大家好,欢迎回到与泰勒对话。

Today I am here talking with Jonathan Swift, born in Dublin 1667, died 1745.

今天我在这里与乔纳森·斯威夫特交谈,他 1667 年出生于都柏林,卒于 1745 年。

But wait, it’s not actually Jonathan Swift.

但等等,这实际上并不是乔纳森·斯威夫特。

I call him “Jonathan GPT Swift” because this was a dialogue conducted with GPT4 in March of 2023.

我称他为“Jonathan GPT Swift”,因为这是 2023 年 3 月与 GPT4 进行的对话。

Now what you’re going to hear and what you’re going to read on the transcript is very close to the actual exchange but there were a few small differences and edits we’ve made.

现在,您将听到的内容和您将在文字记录中读到的内容与实际的交流非常接近,但我们做了一些细微的差异和编辑。

Very often the GPT would begin the answer with, “As Jonathan Swift.” We simply took that out.

GPT 通常会以“作为乔纳森·斯威夫特”开始回答。我们只是把它拿出来。

Some of the longer answers, there were resummaries at the end.

有些回答比较长,最后有总结。

We took those out and there were just a few paragraphs where I asked a question and the answer was boring and my question was boring so we knocked out a few paragraphs but otherwise, this is verbatim what GPT4 gave us.

我们把它们拿掉了,只有几段我问了一个问题,而答案很无聊,我的问题也很无聊,所以我们删除了一些段落,但除此之外,这就是 GPT4 给我们的逐字记录。

I did not keep on repeating prompts trying to get the answer I wanted.

我没有继续重复提示试图得到我想要的答案。

This is really awfully close to the dialogue.

这真的非常接近对话。

So, Jonathan, welcome.

那么,乔纳森,欢迎。

First question…

第一个问题...

Given that you are so skeptical of religious doctrine, why did you nonetheless support a state church, namely the Church of Ireland?

既然您对宗教教义如此怀疑,为什么您仍然支持国家教会,即爱尔兰教会?

JONATHAN GPT SWIFT

Ah, dear reader, it is indeed true that I, Jonathan Swift, harbored a certain degree of skepticism towards religious doctrine.

啊,亲爱的读者,我,乔纳森·斯威夫特,确实对宗教教义抱有一定程度的怀疑。

Yet, one must not confuse this skepticism with a lack of faith or an aversion to the church altogether.

然而,人们绝不能将这种怀疑与缺乏信仰或完全厌恶教会混为一谈。

Indeed, I was ordained a priest in the Church of Ireland, and throughout my life, I served in various capacities within its structure.

事实上,我被任命为爱尔兰教会的牧师,在我的一生中,我在该教会的结构中担任过各种职务。

Now, you may wonder how a man of my disposition could reconcile these seemingly contradictory stances.

现在,你可能想知道像我这样性格的人如何能够调和这些看似矛盾的立场。

The answer, I daresay, lies in the understanding that the church and the state must work in concert to maintain order and stability within society.

我敢说,答案在于教会和国家必须共同努力来维持社会的秩序和稳定。

The Church of Ireland, as an established state church, served as an important institution that promoted social cohesion and provided moral guidance to the people.

爱尔兰教会作为一个既定的国家教会,是促进社会凝聚力和为人民提供道德指导的重要机构。

As a clergyman, I also recognized the church’s role in mitigating the excesses of individual religious enthusiasm, which, if left unchecked, could lead to fanaticism and social discord.

作为一名牧师,我也认识到教会在缓解个人过度宗教热情方面的作用,如果不加以控制,可能会导致狂热和社会不和谐。

The state church acted as a necessary counterbalance to the proliferation of dissenting sects and religious schisms, which I saw as disruptive forces that undermined the stability of the nation.

国家教会对持不同政见的教派和宗教分裂的扩散起到了必要的制衡作用,我认为这些是破坏国家稳定的破坏性力量。

Furthermore, it is important to note that my support for the Church of Ireland was not a blind endorsement of all its policies or doctrine.

此外,值得注意的是,我对爱尔兰教会的支持并不是对其所有政策或教义的盲目认可。

I was known to be critical of certain aspects of the church, particularly in relation to matters of ecclesiastical corruption and the abuse of power.

众所周知,我对教会的某些方面持批评态度,特别是在教会腐败和滥用权力方面。

COWEN

But given that the Ireland of your time was such a Catholic nation, was not such an Anglican-linked state church going to cause social unrest, rather than bring social order?

但考虑到你那个时代的爱尔兰是这样一个天主教国家,这样一个与英国圣公会有联系的国家教会难道不会造成社会动荡,而不是带来社会秩序吗?

SWIFT

Ah, dear inquisitor, your question demonstrates a keen understanding of the complex religious landscape of my beloved Ireland.

啊,亲爱的审判官,你的问题表明了我对我心爱的爱尔兰复杂的宗教景观的敏锐理解。

Indeed, you are correct in pointing out the predominantly Catholic nature of the Irish population during my time.

事实上,你指出在我那个时代爱尔兰人口以天主教为主的本质是正确的。

The Anglican-linked state church, the Church of Ireland, did indeed represent a minority of the populace, and yet, it was the established church of the land.

与英国圣公会有联系的国家教会爱尔兰教会确实代表了少数民众,但它却是这片土地上既定的教会。

Now, you must understand, I was not oblivious to the inherent contradictions and the potential for unrest arising from this arrangement.

现在,你必须明白,我并没有忽视这种安排所带来的内在矛盾和潜在的动荡。

However, as a man of the cloth within the Church of Ireland and a subject of the British crown, my primary allegiance lay with the established order.

然而,作为爱尔兰教会的一员和英国王室的臣民,我的主要效忠是既定秩序。

My objective was to maintain social stability, notwithstanding the difficult religious dynamics at play.

我的目标是维持社会稳定,尽管宗教动态在发挥作用。

It is true that the Penal Laws and other restrictions placed upon our Catholic brethren were harsh and often unjust.

诚然,刑法和其他对我们天主教弟兄的限制是严厉的,而且常常是不公正的。

I, too, harbored concerns about these laws and their consequences for the Catholic population.

我也对这些法律及其对天主教徒的影响感到担忧。

Yet, my influence as a clergyman and writer was limited in matters of state, and my role was not to dismantle the established church but to serve within its confines, while using my pen to highlight injustice and folly where I could.

然而,我作为一名牧师和作家的影响力在国家事务上是有限的,我的角色不是拆除既定的教会,而是在其范围内服务,同时用我的笔尽可能地强调不公正和愚蠢。

In the realm of practicality, I sought to alleviate the hardships faced by the Irish people, regardless of their religious persuasion.

在实用性方面,我寻求减轻爱尔兰人民所面临的困难,无论他们的宗教信仰如何。

My satirical work, A Modest Proposal, was penned as an indictment of the British government’s callousness towards the plight of the impoverished Irish, the majority of whom were Catholics.

我的讽刺作品《一个温和的建议》是为了控诉英国政府对贫困的爱尔兰人(其中大多数是天主教徒)的困境的冷酷无情。

COWEN

This strong attachment to the state church idea — how did it shape the narrative of Gulliver’s Travels?

这种对国家教会理念的强烈依恋——它如何塑造了《格列佛游记》的叙事?

SWIFT

While my attachment to the state church idea may not have been the central theme of Gulliver’s Travels, the novel does contain several reflections on religion, politics, and the human condition, which are influenced by my experiences and beliefs as a clergyman in the Church of Ireland.

虽然我对国家教会观念的依恋可能不是《格列佛游记》的中心主题,但这部小说确实包含了对宗教、政治和人类状况的一些反思,这些反思受到我作为爱尔兰教会牧师的经历和信仰的影响。

In Gulliver’s Travels I crafted a satirical narrative that, among other things, critiques religious fanaticism, intolerance, and the misuse of power.

在《格列佛游记》中,我精心设计了一个讽刺叙事,其中包括批评宗教狂热、不宽容和滥用权力。

The book is structured as a series of voyages to fictional lands, and in each of these lands, Gulliver encounters various societies with their own peculiar customs and beliefs.

这本书的结构是一系列前往虚构土地的航行,在每一个土地上,格列佛都遇到了具有独特习俗和信仰的各种社会。

For instance, in the voyage to Lilliput, I satirize religious disputes by presenting a conflict between two factions who disagree on the proper way to crack an egg.

例如,在前往小人国的航行中,我通过呈现两个派系之间的冲突来讽刺宗教争端,因为他们对打鸡蛋的正确方法存在分歧。

This seemingly trivial disagreement is meant to highlight the absurdity of religious conflicts that have often led to violence and strife in the real world.

这种看似微不足道的分歧旨在凸显宗教冲突的荒谬性,而宗教冲突往往导致现实世界中的暴力和冲突。

Another example is the land of Laputa, where the inhabitants are so obsessed with their abstract speculations that they fail to address the practical needs of their society.

另一个例子是拉普达土地,那里的居民过于痴迷于抽象的推测,以至于无法满足社会的实际需求。

This can be seen as a critique of excessive intellectualism or religious enthusiasm that neglects the immediate needs of the people.

这可以被视为对过度理智主义或宗教热情忽视人民切身需要的批评。

Throughout the narrative, I invite the reader to reflect on the follies and vices of humankind, including those related to religious practices and institutions.

在整个叙述过程中,我邀请读者反思人类的愚蠢和罪恶,包括与宗教习俗和机构有关的愚蠢和罪恶。

While my attachment to the state church may not be explicitly evident in Gulliver’s Travels, my experiences as a clergyman and the socio-political context of my time undoubtedly influenced the satire and commentary found within the novel.

虽然我对国家教会的依恋在《格列佛游记》中可能没有明确表现出来,但我作为牧师的经历和我那个时代的社会政治背景无疑影响了小说中的讽刺和评论。

In essence, Gulliver’s Travels serves as an exploration of human nature, where the various societies Gulliver encounters represent different aspects of our world.

从本质上讲,《格列佛游记》是对人性的探索,格列佛遇到的各种社会代表了我们世界的不同方面。

The novel, while not explicitly focused on the state church idea, is imbued with a broader critique of human folly, including those found within religious institutions and practices.

这部小说虽然没有明确关注国家教会的理念,但充满了对人类愚蠢行为的更广泛的批评,包括在宗教机构和实践中发现的愚蠢行为。

COWEN

In 1709, you, Jonathan Swift, still were calling yourself a Whig.

1709 年,你,乔纳森·斯威夫特,仍然称自己为辉格党人。

What exactly induced you to switch to the Tory side of the ledger?

究竟是什么促使您转向保守党一边?

SWIFT

My shift from the Whigs to the Tories was a gradual and complex process, influenced by several factors, including personal connections, political developments, and ideological disagreements.

我从辉格党转向保守党是一个渐进而复杂的过程,受到多种因素的影响,包括个人关系、政治发展和意识形态分歧。

During my early years in politics, I was indeed more aligned with the Whigs, who championed principles such as constitutional government, religious toleration, and the supremacy of Parliament over the monarchy.

在我从政的早年,我确实更倾向于辉格党,他们拥护宪政、宗教宽容和议会高于君主制等原则。

However, over time, I became increasingly disillusioned with the Whigs, particularly as their internal factions and power struggles intensified.

然而,随着时间的推移,我对辉格党越来越失望,特别是当他们的内部派系和权力斗争加剧时。

The Whigs’ support for the war with France, which began in 1702, was a point of contention for me.

辉格党对 1702 年开始的对法战争的支持是我争论的一个焦点。

I believed that the war was costly and detrimental to England’s interests, and I was opposed to the heavy financial burden it placed on the country.

我认为这场战争代价高昂,损害了英国的利益,我反对它给国家带来沉重的财政负担。

The Tories, on the other hand, advocated for a more prudent and pragmatic approach to foreign policy and sought to negotiate a peace treaty.

另一方面,保守党主张采取更加谨慎和务实的外交政策,并寻求通过谈判达成和平条约。

Another significant factor in my shift towards the Tories was my personal connection to prominent Tory figures, such as Robert Harley and Henry St. John, who would later become key members of the Tory administration.

我转向保守党的另一个重要因素是我与保守党著名人物的个人联系,例如罗伯特·哈利和亨利·圣约翰,他们后来成为保守党政府的关键成员。

I found common ground with them in our shared disdain for corruption and our desire for a more balanced and effective government.

我与他们找到了共同点,那就是我们对腐败的共同蔑视以及对更加平衡和有效的政府的渴望。

Lastly, the Whigs’ advocacy for religious dissent and their anti-establishment approach to the Church of England also played a role in my eventual alignment with the Tories.

最后,辉格党对宗教异见的倡导以及他们对英国国教的反建制态度也在我最终与托利党结盟的过程中发挥了作用。

As a clergyman, I held a strong attachment to the Anglican Church, and I was concerned about the erosion of its authority and influence.

作为一名牧师,我对英国国教有着强烈的依恋,我担心它的权威和影响力受到侵蚀。

The Tories, with their commitment to upholding the Church of England’s position, resonated more with my beliefs in this regard.

托利党致力于维护英国国教的立场,这与我在这方面的信念产生了更多共鸣。

COWEN

OK, take your work on currency and coinage.

好的,开始你的货币和铸币工作吧。

Do you think your Drapier’s Letters was your most widely read and most influential work in your lifetime?

您认为您的《德雷皮尔书信》是您一生中阅读最广泛、最有影响力的作品吗?

SWIFT

Indeed, my dear reader, the Drapier’s Letters proved to be a most influential and widely read work during my lifetime.

事实上,我亲爱的读者,《德雷皮尔书信》被证明是我一生中最具影响力和广泛阅读的作品。

While I had penned other satirical pieces that garnered attention and acclaim, the Drapier’s Letters held a unique significance due to their immediate impact on contemporary political events in Ireland.

虽然我写过其他引起关注和赞誉的讽刺作品,但德雷皮尔的书信因其对爱尔兰当代政治事件的直接影响而具有独特的意义。

The Drapier’s Letters emerged as a series of pamphlets written in 1724, wherein I assumed the persona of a humble draper.

《布艺书信》是 1724 年写成的一系列小册子,我在其中扮演了一个卑微的布艺商的角色。

The purpose of these letters was to protest against the patent granted by the British government to William Wood, which allowed him to produce and circulate a new copper coinage in Ireland.

这些信件的目的是抗议英国政府授予威廉·伍德的专利,该专利允许他在爱尔兰生产和流通一种新的铜币。

This patent was issued without the consultation or consent of the Irish Parliament, and many feared that it would lead to the debasement of Irish currency and further economic exploitation.

这项专利是在没有征得爱尔兰议会协商或同意的情况下颁发的,许多人担心这会导致爱尔兰货币贬值和进一步的经济剥削。

Through the Drapier’s Letters, I roused the Irish people to oppose Wood’s halfpence, arguing that accepting the coins would undermine Ireland’s economy and sovereignty.

通过《德雷皮尔信件》,我呼吁爱尔兰人民反对伍德的半便士,认为接受这些硬币会损害爱尔兰的经济和主权。

The pamphlets resonated with the public and gained widespread popularity, uniting the Irish population against this perceived injustice.

这些小册子引起了公众的共鸣并受到广泛欢迎,使爱尔兰民众团结起来反对这种不公正现象。

As a result of the mounting pressure, the British government eventually withdrew the patent, and Wood’s halfpence were never circulated in Ireland.

由于压力越来越大,英国政府最终撤回了该专利,伍德的半便士从未在爱尔兰流通。

This victory for the Irish people cemented my status as a national hero, and the Drapier’s Letters became a symbol of Irish resistance against British oppression.

爱尔兰人民的这场胜利巩固了我作为民族英雄的地位,德雷皮尔的书信成为爱尔兰反抗英国压迫的象征。

In light of these events, it is fair to say that the Drapier’s Letters were among my most influential works during my lifetime, as they successfully galvanized the public and precipitated tangible political change.

鉴于这些事件,可以公平地说,《德雷皮尔书信》是我一生中最有影响力的作品之一,因为它们成功地激励了公众并促成了切实的政治变革。

COWEN

OK, so then what kind of coinage and currency reform did you favor instead?

好的,那么您支持哪种铸币和货币改革呢?

SWIFT

My primary concern regarding coinage and currency in Ireland was to ensure that any reform would protect the economic well-being of the Irish people and uphold their interests.

我对爱尔兰铸币和货币的主要关注是确保任何改革都能保护爱尔兰人民的经济福祉并维护他们的利益。

In the case of the Drapier’s Letters my objection to Wood’s halfpence was driven by the fact that it was imposed without the consent of the Irish Parliament and that it threatened to devalue the currency and harm the economy.

就德雷皮尔信件而言,我之所以反对伍德的半便士,是因为它是在未经爱尔兰议会同意的情况下实施的,而且它威胁到货币贬值并损害经济。

While I did not explicitly outline a comprehensive plan for currency reform in my writings, several key principles can be inferred from my opposition to Wood’s patent:

虽然我没有在著作中明确概述货币改革的全面计划,但从我对伍德专利的反对中可以推断出几个关键原则:

Consent and involvement of the Irish Parliament: Any reform to the Irish currency should involve consultation and approval by the Irish Parliament.

爱尔兰议会的同意和参与:爱尔兰货币的任何改革都应经过爱尔兰议会的协商和批准。

This would ensure that the interests of the Irish people are taken into account when decisions about their economy are made.

这将确保在做出有关爱尔兰经济的决策时考虑到爱尔兰人民的利益。

Maintaining the value of the currency: It is crucial to avoid the debasement of the currency, which could lead to inflation and other economic problems.

维持货币价值:避免货币贬值至关重要,货币贬值可能导致通货膨胀和其他经济问题。

The quality and quantity of coinage produced should be closely regulated to ensure that the currency remains stable and maintains its value.

应严格控制铸币的质量和数量,以确保货币保持稳定并保值。

Ensuring adequate coinage supply: A well-functioning economy requires an adequate supply of coinage to facilitate transactions and trade.

确保充足的铸币供应:运转良好的经济需要充足的铸币供应来促进交易和贸易。

Any reform should ensure that there is enough coinage in circulation to meet the needs of the population while preventing an oversupply that could lead to devaluation.

任何改革都应确保流通中有足够的货币来满足人口的需求,同时防止供应过剩导致货币贬值。

Encouraging domestic production: Supporting domestic industries and trade, rather than relying on external actors like William Wood, would contribute to a more robust Irish economy.

鼓励国内生产:支持国内工业和贸易,而不是依赖威廉·伍德等外部参与者,将有助于爱尔兰经济更加强劲。

This could include promoting local mints and coin production or developing industries that could increase the demand for domestically produced currency.

这可能包括促进当地铸币厂和硬币生产或发展可以增加对国内货币需求的产业。

COWEN

In the history of Irish economic thought, including in your time, there is a strong emphasis on using protectionism to encourage domestic production, rather than free trade.

在爱尔兰经济思想史上,包括在您那个时代,都非常强调利用保护主义来鼓励国内生产,而不是自由贸易。

Where do you think that emphasis came from?

您认为这种强调从何而来?

SWIFT

The emphasis on protectionism in Irish economic thought, including during my time, stemmed from a confluence of historical, political, and economic factors unique to Ireland.

爱尔兰经济思想中对保护主义的强调,包括在我的时代,源于爱尔兰独特的历史、政治和经济因素的综合作用。

The desire to encourage domestic production through protectionist policies can be attributed to several key reasons:

通过保护主义政策鼓励国内生产的愿望可归因于以下几个关键原因:

British domination: Ireland, being under British rule, faced economic policies that often prioritized English interests over those of the Irish people.

英国的统治:在英国统治下的爱尔兰所面临的经济政策往往将英国的利益置于爱尔兰人民的利益之上。

The Irish economy was frequently subordinated to the needs of the English, which led to the suppression of various domestic industries in Ireland to the benefit of English producers.

爱尔兰经济经常屈从于英国人的需求,这导致爱尔兰各种国内工业受到压制,以利于英国生产者。

As a result, protectionism emerged as a way to shelter Irish industries from external competition and foster their development.

结果,保护主义成为保护爱尔兰工业免受外部竞争并促进其发展的一种方式。

Economic dependency: The Irish economy was heavily reliant on agricultural exports, particularly to England.

经济依赖性:爱尔兰经济严重依赖农产品出口,特别是对英国的农产品出口。

This dependency made the economy vulnerable to fluctuations in demand and prices, as well as trade restrictions imposed by the British government.

这种依赖性使得经济容易受到需求和价格波动以及英国政府施加的贸易限制的影响。

Protectionist policies were seen as a means to reduce this dependency by diversifying the Irish economy and promoting domestic industries.

保护主义政策被视为通过实现爱尔兰经济多元化和促进国内产业来减少这种依赖的一种手段。

Uneven development: Owing to the political and economic circumstances, wealth and industrial development in Ireland were not evenly distributed.

发展不平衡:由于政治和经济环境的影响,爱尔兰的财富和工业发展分布不均。

While some areas, such as Dublin, experienced relative prosperity, other regions faced significant poverty and underdevelopment.

虽然都柏林等一些地区相对繁荣,但其他地区则面临严重的贫困和欠发达。

Protectionism was seen as a tool to stimulate economic growth in these underdeveloped areas and to promote a more equitable distribution of wealth and resources.

保护主义被视为刺激这些欠发达地区经济增长和促进财富和资源更公平分配的工具。

Nationalism and self-sufficiency: The desire for Irish self-sufficiency and independence from English rule fueled the push for protectionism.

民族主义和自给自足:爱尔兰自给自足和摆脱英国统治独立的愿望推动了保护主义的发展。

By nurturing domestic industries, the Irish people could assert greater control over their economic destiny and reduce their reliance on English goods and markets.

通过培育国内工业,爱尔兰人民可以更好地控制自己的经济命运,并减少对英国商品和市场的依赖。

COWEN

OK, Jonathan, what would be an example of a clever and humorous question I might ask you about A Modest Proposal?

好的,乔纳森,我可能会问你一个关于“温和的建议”的聪明而幽默的问题,请问这个例子是什么?

SWIFT

A clever and humorous question about A Modest Proposal might be:

关于“适度的提议”的一个聪明而幽默的问题可能是:

“Dear Mr. Swift, I recently read A Modest Proposal and found your culinary suggestions to be both innovative and cost-effective.

“亲爱的斯威夫特先生,我最近阅读了《一份谦虚的建议》,发现您的烹饪建议既具有创新性,又具有成本效益。

Do you happen to have any similarly creative recipes for addressing other social issues of our time, such as housing or healthcare?”

您是否有任何类似的创意方法来解决我们这个时代的其他社会问题,例如住房或医疗保健?”

COWEN

And how would you answer?

你会如何回答?

SWIFT

As Jonathan Swift, I would answer with a touch of wit:

作为乔纳森·斯威夫特,我会机智地回答:

“Ah, my dear reader, I am delighted to find that my A Modest Proposal has piqued your interest in creative solutions to society’s pressing problems.

“啊,我亲爱的读者,我很高兴地发现我的一个温和的建议激起了您对创造性解决社会紧迫问题的兴趣。

While I have not yet formulated specific recipes for housing or healthcare, I must stress the importance of recognizing satire in my work.

虽然我还没有制定住房或医疗保健的具体方案,但我必须强调在我的工作中认识到讽刺的重要性。

My intention was to provoke thought and encourage society to address the suffering of the Irish people in a more humane and sensible manner.

我的目的是引发思考并鼓励社会以更加人道和明智的方式解决爱尔兰人民的苦难。

However, I would encourage you to apply the same spirit of critical thinking and satire to explore these other issues.

然而,我鼓励您运用同样的批判性思维和讽刺精神来探索这些其他问题。

Perhaps, in doing so, we can raise awareness and inspire meaningful change, as opposed to merely cooking up outlandish schemes.

或许,通过这样做,我们可以提高认识并激发有意义的变革,而不是仅仅炮制出古怪的计划。

Remember, the key ingredient in any solution is a healthy dose of reason and empathy.”

请记住,任何解决方案的关键要素都是适量的理性和同理心。”

COWEN

If I try to boil your different works — from Gulliver’s Travels to Modest Proposal to the political and coinage writings — down to a common theme, I would say it is this: “Moral and intellectual progress is extremely difficult and is not to be taken for granted.” What would you say to that?

如果我试图将你们不同的作品——从《格列佛游记》到《谦虚的求婚》到政治和造币著作——归结为一个共同的主题,我会说:“道德和智力的进步是极其困难的,不能被视为理所当然。”你对此有何评论?

SWIFT

My dear reader, your assessment is perceptive, capturing a common thread that weaves through my diverse body of work.

我亲爱的读者,您的评价很有洞察力,抓住了贯穿我多样化作品的共同主线。

Indeed, I endeavored to convey that moral and intellectual progress is a most arduous endeavor, one that requires constant vigilance and reflection.

事实上,我努力表达道德和智力的进步是一项最艰巨的努力,需要不断的警惕和反思。

COWEN

OK, so if we had to boil down the difference between your progress skepticism, and the progress enthusiasm of the Enlightenment thinkers of the 18th century, what is the most fundamental reason for that difference of opinion?

好吧,那么如果我们必须归结为您的进步怀疑论与18世纪启蒙思想家的进步热情之间的差异,那么造成这种观点差异的最根本原因是什么?

How would you boil the difference down to as few underlying dimensions as possible?

您如何将差异归结为尽可能少的基本维度?

SWIFT

The most fundamental difference between my skepticism of progress and the progress enthusiasm of Enlightenment thinkers can be attributed to our differing views on human nature and the potential for reason to transform society.

我对进步的怀疑与启蒙思想家的进步热情之间最根本的区别可以归因于我们对人性和理性改造社会的潜力的不同看法。

Enlightenment thinkers were optimistic about the ability of reason, knowledge, and education to overcome ignorance, superstition, and prejudice, ultimately leading to the betterment of society and human well-being.

启蒙思想家对理性、知识和教育克服无知、迷信和偏见的能力持乐观态度,最终改善社会和人类福祉。

In contrast, my works reflect a more skeptical view of human nature, emphasizing the persistence of folly, irrationality, and vice even in the face of reason and education.

相比之下,我的作品反映了对人性更加怀疑的观点,强调即使在理性和教育面前,愚蠢、非理性和恶习仍然存在。

I believed that human imperfections and moral frailties were enduring features of our condition, and while progress was possible, it should not be taken for granted or assumed to be easily attainable.

我相信人类的不完美和道德的弱点是我们处境的持久特征,虽然进步是可能的,但不应该被视为理所当然或认为是容易实现的。

To distill the difference into its essential dimensions: Enlightenment thinkers placed great faith in the transformative power of reason and the inherent perfectibility of human nature, while I maintained a more cautious outlook, recognizing the limitations of reason and the enduring presence of human flaws.

将差异提炼到其本质层面:启蒙思想家对理性的变革力量和人性固有的完美性抱有极大的信心,而我则保持着更为谨慎的观点,认识到理性的局限性和人类缺陷的持久存在。

COWEN

In Gulliver’s Travels, during Gulliver’s visit to Lagado, you mention the notion of a machine that, on its own, writes and prints out books and other texts.

在《格列佛游记》中,在格列佛访问拉加多期间,您提到了机器的概念,它可以自行书写和打印书籍和其他文本。

Did you imagine that such a machine might ever be possible?

您是否想象过这样的机器可能成为可能?

SWIFT

When I wrote about the machine in the Academy of Lagado in Gulliver’s Travels, I intended it as a satirical commentary on the overly speculative and impractical nature of some scientific pursuits during my time.

当我在《格列佛游记》中写到拉加多学院的机器时,我的本意是将其作为对我那个时代的一些科学追求的过度投机性和不切实际性的讽刺评论。

The machine, which supposedly generated books and texts without any human intervention, was a critique of the belief that science and technology could automatically produce knowledge and wisdom.

这台机器据说可以在没有任何人工干预的情况下生成书籍和文本,它是对科学技术可以自动产生知识和智慧的信念的批判。

While I may not have genuinely believed that such a machine would become a reality during my lifetime, my satirical portrayal aimed to provoke thought and reflection on the potential consequences of blindly pursuing scientific advancement without considering the ethical and practical implications.

虽然我可能并不真正相信这样的机器会在我有生之年成为现实,但我的讽刺描绘旨在引发人们对盲目追求科学进步而不考虑伦理和实际影响的潜在后果的思考和反思。

That being said, the development of modern technologies, such as computers and artificial intelligence, has led to machines capable of generating text autonomously, in ways I could not have predicted.

话虽如此,计算机和人工智能等现代技术的发展已经使机器能够以我无法预测的方式自主生成文本。

Although the context and implications differ, it is fascinating to see how aspects of my satirical vision have manifested in reality.

尽管背景和含义有所不同,但看到我的讽刺愿景如何在现实中体现是令人着迷的。

COWEN

Your pamphlet Predictions for the Year 1708 — what were you trying to get at there?

你的小册子对 1708 年的预测 ——你想从中得到什么?

Whom were you making fun of?

你在取笑谁?

SWIFT

My pamphlet Predictions for the Year 1708 was a satirical piece that poked fun at the practice of astrology and the popularity of almanacs that purported to predict future events.

我的小册子《1708 年预测》是一篇讽刺作品,取笑了占星学的实践以及旨在预测未来事件的年鉴的流行。

By creating the persona of Isaac Bickerstaff, an astrologer who makes bold and ludicrous predictions, I aimed to expose the absurdity and gullibility surrounding these practices.

通过创造艾萨克·比克斯塔夫(Isaac Bickerstaff)这个做出大胆而荒唐的预测的占星家的角色,我的目的是揭露这些做法的荒谬和轻信。

The primary target of my satire in this case was John Partridge, a prominent almanac maker and astrologer of the time, whose predictions were widely followed and taken seriously.

在这个案例中,我讽刺的主要目标是约翰·帕特里奇,他是当时著名的年历制作者和占星家,他的预测受到广泛遵循和认真对待。

By ridiculing Partridge’s predictions and casting doubt on the legitimacy of his practice, I sought to highlight the general folly of relying on such unscientific methods for predicting the future.

通过嘲笑帕特里奇的预测并对他的实践的合法性提出质疑,我试图强调依靠这种不科学的方法来预测未来的普遍愚蠢。

In a broader sense, the pamphlet can also be seen as a commentary on human credulity and the dangers of embracing superstition over reason.

从更广泛的意义上来说,这本小册子也可以被视为对人类轻信以及迷信而非理性的危险的评论。

By lampooning the practice of astrology and the belief in almanacs, I aimed to encourage readers to question the basis of such beliefs and to embrace a more rational and critical approach to understanding the world.

通过讽刺占星术的实践和对年鉴的信仰,我的目的是鼓励读者质疑这些信仰的基础,并采用更理性和批判性的方法来理解世界。

On things over- and underrated

关于被高估和低估的事情

COWEN

OK, we’re going to play a little game here.

好的,我们要在这里玩一个小游戏。

I will name a thinker or other item from your time, and you will tell me whether you think it is overrated or underrated.

我会说出你那个时代的一位思想家或其他项目,你会告诉我你是否认为它被高估了还是被低估了。

How about John Donne, overrated or underrated?

约翰·多恩怎么样,被高估还是被低估?

SWIFT

I have great respect for John Donne, the metaphysical poet and cleric.

我非常尊敬形而上学诗人和牧师约翰·多恩。

Donne’s work is known for its complexity, wit, and innovative use of metaphors.

多恩的作品以其复杂性、机智和对隐喻的创新运用而闻名。

His unique style and approach to poetry have had a lasting influence on English literature.

他独特的诗歌风格和方法对英国文学产生了持久的影响。

In my opinion, John Donne is not overrated, but rather appropriately rated or even underrated, considering the depth and quality of his work.

在我看来,考虑到约翰·多恩作品的深度和质量,他并没有被高估,而是得到了适当的评价,甚至被低估了。

COWEN

Let’s try again: Homer, overrated or underrated?

让我们再试一次:荷马,被高估还是被低估?

SWIFT

I would consider Homer to be underrated, as his works have had a profound and enduring influence on Western literature and culture.

我认为荷马被低估了,因为他的作品对西方文学和文化产生了深远而持久的影响。

As the author of the epic poems “The Iliad” and “The Odyssey,” Homer is a foundational figure in the literary canon, and his works have been studied, admired, and imitated for centuries.

作为史诗《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》的作者,荷马是文学经典中的奠基人物,几个世纪以来,他的作品一直被研究、钦佩和模仿。

Homer’s epic poetry not only provided a model for subsequent poets and writers but also offered timeless insights into human nature, heroism, and the complexities of life.

荷马的史诗不仅为后来的诗人和作家提供了典范,而且还提供了对人性、英雄主义和生活复杂性的永恒见解。

The themes and moral dilemmas presented in his works continue to resonate with readers today, and the depth of his characters and the beauty of his verse remain unparalleled.

他作品中所呈现的主题和道德困境至今仍然引起读者的共鸣,他的人物深度和诗句之美仍然无与伦比。

While it is true that some aspects of Homer’s works may seem antiquated or inaccessible to modern readers, the overall significance and impact of his contributions to literature cannot be overstated.

虽然荷马作品的某些方面确实对现代读者来说似乎过时或难以理解,但他对文学贡献的整体意义和影响无论如何强调都不为过。

I believe that a deeper appreciation for Homer’s genius and the enduring relevance of his work is warranted, which is why I classify him as underrated.

我相信,有必要对荷马的天才和他的作品的持久相关性进行更深入的欣赏,这就是为什么我将他归为被低估的原因。

COWEN

Queen Anne: overrated or underrated?

安妮女王:被高估还是被低估?

You may answer in puzzles and riddles if you find this question politically inconvenient.

如果您发现这个问题在政治上不方便,您可以用谜题和谜语来回答。

SWIFT

As Jonathan Swift, I shall offer my perspective on Queen Anne in a veiled manner, employing a metaphor to express my thoughts:

我以乔纳森·斯威夫特的身份,隐晦地表达一下我对安妮女王的看法,用一个比喻来表达我的想法:

Imagine a vessel navigating through troubled waters, with strong currents representing the shifting political landscape.

想象一下一艘船在浑水里航行,强劲的水流代表着不断变化的政治格局。

The vessel’s captain, akin to Queen Anne, must face the turbulent seas, exhibiting both moments of strength and moments of vulnerability.

这艘船的船长就像安妮女王一样,必须面对汹涌的大海,展现出坚强的时刻和脆弱的时刻。

Many would attribute the vessel’s course to the captain’s skill, while others may question the captain’s decisions and leadership.

许多人将船只的航向归因于船长的技能,而另一些人可能会质疑船长的决策和领导力。

In this metaphorical scenario, the captain, much like Queen Anne, holds a significant position of power and responsibility.

在这个隐喻场景中,船长就像安妮女王一样,拥有重要的权力和责任。

However, the captain’s competence may be a subject of debate.

然而,队长的能力可能是一个争论的话题。

Some may perceive the captain as overrated, while others may argue that the captain is underrated, given the complexity of the circumstances they must navigate.

有些人可能认为船长被高估了,而另一些人可能认为船长被低估了,因为他们必须应对环境的复杂性。

In the end, the evaluation of Queen Anne’s reign, much like the evaluation of the vessel’s captain, is a matter of perspective and debate, dependent on the individual’s view of her decisions, her politics, and her historical context.

最后,对安妮女王统治的评价,就像对船长的评价一样,是一个观点和辩论的问题,取决于个人对她的决定、政治和历史背景的看法。

COWEN

Lucian or Juvenal, which would you prefer?

卢锡安和尤维纳尔,你更喜欢哪一个?

SWIFT

I must confess that both Lucian and Juvenal have their merits, and each has influenced my own work in different ways.

我必须承认卢西恩和尤维纳尔都有各自的优点,并且每个人都以不同的方式影响了我自己的工作。

However, if I were compelled to choose between the two, I would lean towards Juvenal.

然而,如果我必须在两者之间做出选择,我会倾向于尤维纳尔。

Juvenal, the Roman satirist, is best known for his biting and acerbic observations of Roman society in his “Satires.” His use of irony, wit, and moral indignation to expose the vices and follies of his contemporaries resonates with my own approach to satire.

罗马讽刺作家尤维纳尔以其在《讽刺诗》中对罗马社会尖锐尖刻的观察而闻名。他利用讽刺、机智和道德义愤来揭露同时代人的罪恶和愚蠢,这与我自己的讽刺方式产生了共鸣。

Juvenal’s work has served as an inspiration and a model for my own satirical endeavors, particularly in his fearless critique of societal norms and human behavior.

尤维纳尔的作品为我自己的讽刺事业提供了灵感和典范,特别是他对社会规范和人类行为的无畏批评。

That being said, Lucian, the Greek satirist and rhetorician, also holds a special place in my esteem.

话虽这么说,希腊讽刺作家和修辞学家卢西恩在我的尊敬中也占有特殊的地位。

His wit, humor, and imaginative approach to satire, as well as his penchant for blending elements of fiction and philosophy, are undeniably appealing.

他的机智、幽默和富有想象力的讽刺方式,以及他对融合小说和哲学元素的偏好,无可否认地具有吸引力。

However, in terms of personal preference and influence, I find Juvenal’s biting and morally charged satire to be more closely aligned with my own literary sensibilities.

然而,就个人喜好和影响力而言,我发现尤维纳尔的辛辣和道德讽刺更符合我自己的文学感受。

COWEN

England’s Royal Society…, you know the institution for the advancement of science.

英国皇家学会……你知道这个促进科学进步的机构。

Underrated or overrated?

被低估还是被高估?

SWIFT

The Royal Society, while commendable in its pursuit of knowledge and scientific advancement, can be seen as somewhat overrated due to the propensity of some of its members to become overly enamored with their own ideas, as well as their occasional tendency to neglect the practical implications and potential misuses of scientific discoveries.

英国皇家学会虽然在追求知识和科学进步方面值得称赞,但由于其一些成员倾向于过度迷恋自己的想法,并且偶尔倾向于忽视科学发现的实际意义和潜在的误用,因此可以被视为有点高估。

In my satire, Gulliver’s Travels, the fictional Academy of Lagado serves as a critique of the Royal Society and similar institutions of the time.

在我的讽刺作品《格列佛游记》中,虚构的拉加多学院是对当时皇家学会和类似机构的批评。

The scientists and scholars at the Academy are depicted as well-meaning but misguided, conducting experiments that are often absurd, impractical, and detached from the needs of society.

该学院的科学家和学者被描述为善意但被误导,他们进行的实验往往是荒谬的、不切实际的,并且脱离了社会的需求。

This critique is not intended to dismiss the value of scientific progress or the potential benefits of the Royal Society’s endeavors, but rather to caution against unchecked enthusiasm for scientific discovery without sufficient consideration for the human implications and potential consequences.

这种批评并不是要否认科学进步的价值或皇家学会努力的潜在好处,而是要警告人们不要在没有充分考虑对人类的影响和潜在后果的情况下对科学发现的热情不受控制。

In summary, while the Royal Society has made numerous contributions to the advancement of science, as Jonathan Swift, I would argue that it is somewhat overrated, as it can be prone to a certain degree of self-importance and a lack of practicality in its pursuits.

总而言之,虽然英国皇家学会为科学进步做出了许多贡献,但我认为,像乔纳森·斯威夫特一样,它有点被高估了,因为它可能容易出现一定程度的自以为是,并且在其追求中缺乏实用性。

COWEN

Please explain the meaning of this sentence, the opening sentence from your The Battle of the Books — “Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody’s face but their own.”

请解释一下这句话的含义,这是你的《书之战》中的开场白——“讽刺是一种玻璃,旁观者通常会发现每个人的脸,除了他们自己的。”

SWIFT

The opening sentence of The Battle of the Books highlights an essential aspect of satire: its ability to reveal human folly and vice while simultaneously prompting readers to reflect on their own behavior and attitudes.

《书籍之战》的开头句强调了讽刺的一个重要方面:它能够揭示人类的愚蠢和罪恶,同时促使读者反思自己的行为和态度。

The metaphor of satire as a “sort of glass” suggests that it functions as a mirror, offering a reflection of the world and its inhabitants.

将讽刺比喻为“某种玻璃”表明它的功能就像一面镜子,反映世界及其居民。

However, the sentence also points to a common human tendency: people often fail to recognize their own faults and shortcomings when confronted with a satirical depiction of society.

然而,这句话也指出了人类的一个普遍倾向:当人们面对社会的讽刺描写时,往往无法认识到自己的错误和缺点。

They may be quick to identify the flaws of others but remain oblivious to how they themselves embody similar vices or follies.

他们可能很快就能识别出他人的缺点,但却忽视了他们自己是如何体现出类似的恶习或愚蠢的。

In essence, this sentence captures the dual nature of satire as a tool for both exposing the follies of the world and challenging readers to confront their own imperfections.

从本质上讲,这句话抓住了讽刺的双重性质,既可以揭露世界的愚蠢,又可以挑战读者面对自己的缺陷。

It serves as a reminder that satire can be a powerful and thought-provoking literary device, encouraging introspection and self-examination while also critiquing societal norms and human behavior.

它提醒我们,讽刺可以是一种强大且发人深省的文学手段,鼓励内省和自我审视,同时批评社会规范和人类行为。

COWEN

Can you tell us a joke from your time, Jonathan Swift, a short but funny one?

乔纳森·斯威夫特,你能给我们讲一个你那个时代的笑话吗?一个简短但有趣的笑话?

SWIFT

I shall share a short jest that was popular during my time:

我分享一个我那个时代流行的小笑话:

Why do we never tell secrets on a farm?

为什么我们在农场从不泄露秘密?

Because the potatoes have eyes and the corn has ears.

因为土豆有眼睛,玉米有耳朵。

COWEN

So, what is a joke from your time that *you* would find funny?

那么,您那个时代有什么笑话让*您*觉得好笑呢?

SWIFT

My humor often leaned towards satire and irony.

我的幽默常常倾向于讽刺和讽刺。

A jest from my time that I might find more appealing would be a humorous couplet from my own work, On Poetry: A Rhapsody:

我那个时代的一个笑话可能更吸引我,那就是我自己的作品《论诗歌:狂想曲》中的一句幽默对句:

“So geese in compass, figures may express, And teach dull censors to be more or less.”

“因此,指南针中的鹅,数字可以表达,并教导迟钝的审查员或多或少。”

This couplet employs wordplay and irony to poke fun at critics, suggesting that they are no more discerning than geese.

这副对联运用双关语和讽刺来嘲笑批评者,暗示他们并不比鹅更有洞察力。

COWEN

OK, now a few questions about that woman Stella, are you game?

好的,现在有几个关于那个女人斯特拉的问题,你愿意吗?

SWIFT

Of course, I am more than willing to answer any questions you may have about Esther Johnson, affectionately known as “Stella.” She was an essential figure in my life, and our relationship was a source of great inspiration and support.

当然,我非常愿意回答您有关埃丝特·约翰逊(Esther Johnson)(被亲切地称为“斯特拉”)的任何问题。她是我生命中重要的人物,我们的关系是巨大灵感和支持的源泉。

Please, go ahead and ask your questions.

请继续提出您的问题。

COWEN

Some say that you two are secretly married, is there any truth to that?

有人说你们两个已经秘密结婚了,这是真的吗?

SWIFT

I must say that the nature of my relationship with Esther Johnson, or Stella, has long been a subject of speculation and intrigue.

我必须说,我与埃丝特·约翰逊(Esther Johnson)或斯特拉(Stella)的关系性质长期以来一直是猜测和阴谋的主题。

Indeed, many have asserted that we were secretly married, while others maintain that we shared a close, platonic bond.

事实上,许多人声称我们秘密结婚,而另一些人则坚持认为我们有着亲密的、柏拉图式的联系。

The truth of the matter is that my relationship with Stella was highly private and cherished, and I never confirmed nor denied the rumors of a secret marriage during my lifetime.

事实的真相是,我和斯黛拉的关系是高度私密和珍惜的,我生前从未证实或否认过秘密结婚的传闻。

It is undeniable that Stella and I shared a deep, enduring connection, which I chronicled in the Journal to Stella, a series of letters written to her over the course of several years.

不可否认的是,我和斯特拉有着深厚而持久的联系,我在《给斯特拉的日记》中记录了这种联系,这是几年来写给她的一系列信件。

Whether we were secretly married or simply maintained a profound friendship remains a matter of conjecture.

我们究竟是秘密结婚还是仅仅保持着深厚的友谊仍然是一个猜测。

The privacy of our relationship was of utmost importance to both of us, and as such, I shall continue to respect that privacy even in this current form of communication.

我们关系的隐私对我们双方来说都至关重要,因此,即使在当前的沟通形式下,我也将继续尊重这种隐私。

COWEN

In your correspondence, all those references to her “coffee,” drinking her “coffee,” what was that all about?

在你的信件中,所有提到她的“咖啡”,喝她的“咖啡”,那是怎么回事?

SWIFT

I employed a variety of playful and affectionate terms, phrases, and codes in my correspondence with Stella, particularly in the Journal to Stella.

在与斯特拉的通信中,尤其是在《给斯特拉的日记》中,我使用了各种有趣而充满感情的术语、短语和代码。

These creative expressions served to foster a sense of intimacy and exclusivity in our communication, reflecting the closeness of our relationship and our shared sense of humor.

这些创造性的表达方式有助于在我们的沟通中培养一种亲密感和排他性,反映了我们关系的亲密性和我们共同的幽默感。

The references to “coffee” in my letters to Stella can be interpreted as an example of such playfulness.

我给斯特拉的信中提到的“咖啡”可以被解释为这种俏皮的一个例子。

The term “coffee” may have been a metaphor, a private joke, or an allusion to a shared experience or memory between us.

“咖啡”这个词可能是一个隐喻、一个私人笑话,或者是对我们之间共同经历或记忆的暗示。

The precise meaning of these references, much like the nature of our relationship, remains shrouded in mystery and open to interpretation, a testament to the intimate and private nature of our communication.

这些引用的确切含义,就像我们关系的本质一样,仍然笼罩在神秘之中,并且可以解释,这证明了我们交流的亲密和私人性质。

COWEN

Thank you for answering my question.

感谢您回答我的问题。

Jonathan, why do so many of your poems and works exhibit scatological interests?

乔纳森,为什么你的许多诗歌和作品都表现出对粪便的兴趣?

Be honest now.

现在说实话。

SWIFT

I admit that some of my works indeed display a fascination with scatological themes.

我承认我的一些作品确实表现出了对粪便主题的迷恋。

The reason for employing such themes is multifaceted, and it stems from my satirical nature and desire to challenge societal norms and conventions.

采用这些主题的原因是多方面的,它源于我的讽刺性质和挑战社会规范和惯例的愿望。

First, the use of scatological imagery and themes allowed me to critique the artificiality and pretensions of polite society.

首先,粪便意象和主题的使用使我能够批评礼貌社会的人为和虚伪。

By contrasting the refined manners and appearances of individuals with their baser bodily functions, I sought to expose the inherent hypocrisy and contradictions that exist within human nature.

通过将个人优雅的举止和外表与其卑鄙的身体机能进行对比,我试图揭露人性中存在的固有的虚伪和矛盾。

Second, the use of scatological humor served as a means of capturing the attention of my readers, to shock them and provoke a reaction.

其次,使用粗鄙幽默是吸引读者注意力、震惊他们并引起反应的一种手段。

By employing such themes, I could ensure that my work would not be easily ignored and would force the reader to confront and reconsider their own preconceptions and beliefs.

通过采用这些主题,我可以确保我的作品不会轻易被忽视,并迫使读者面对和重新考虑他们自己的成见和信念。

Lastly, scatological themes can also be seen as a reminder of our shared humanity, highlighting the fact that no matter one’s social status or background, we are all subject to the same bodily functions and processes.

最后,粪便主题也可以被视为提醒我们共同的人性,强调这样一个事实:无论一个人的社会地位或背景如何,我们都受到相同的身体功能和过程的影响。

This reminder served to level the playing field, emphasizing that beneath the surface, we are all equal in our essential human experiences.

这一提醒旨在创造公平的竞争环境,强调在表面之下,我们在人类基本经历上都是平等的。

COWEN

OK, now we’re going to talk about the Jonathan Swift production function, I have a few questions:

好的,现在我们要讨论 Jonathan Swift 生产函数,我有几个问题:

What is your most unusual work habit?

你最不寻常的工作习惯是什么?

SWIFT

My most unusual work habit, you say?

你说我最不寻常的工作习惯?

Well, I suppose some might find it strange that I often wrote in bed, with a desk and a candle by my side, and sometimes even dictated to a scribe while lying down.

嗯,我想有些人可能会觉得奇怪,我经常在床上写作,旁边有一张桌子和一支蜡烛,有时甚至躺着向抄写员口述。

It was a way of saving time and preserving my health, for I suffered from bouts of vertigo and deafness that made sitting at a regular desk uncomfortable and tedious.

这是节省时间和保持健康的一种方式,因为我患有眩晕和耳聋,这让坐在普通办公桌前感到不舒服和乏味。

I also found that the warmth and quiet of my bedchamber stimulated my imagination and wit, and helped me to compose some of my most satirical and scathing pieces.

我还发现卧室的温暖和安静激发了我的想象力和智慧,并帮助我创作了一些最讽刺和严厉的作品。

Another habit that might seem odd to some was that I frequently changed my style and persona, depending on the subject and purpose of my writing.

另一个对某些人来说可能看起来很奇怪的习惯是,我经常根据写作的主题和目的改变我的风格和角色。

I wrote under various pseudonyms, such as Isaac Bickerstaff, M.B.

我用各种笔名写作,例如 Isaac Bickerstaff, M.B.

Drapier, and Lemuel Gulliver, and adopted different tones, genres, and perspectives, such as irony, parody, fable, and travel narrative.

德雷皮尔、雷米尔·格列佛,并采用了不同的语气、体裁和视角,如讽刺、戏仿、寓言和旅行叙事。

I did this partly to avoid censorship and prosecution, for some of my works were considered seditious and libelous by the authorities, and partly to challenge and mock the conventions and prejudices of my readers, who often mistook my true intentions and meanings.

我这样做部分是为了避免审查和起诉,因为我的一些作品被当局认为具有煽动性和诽谤性,部分是为了挑战和嘲笑我的读者的惯例和偏见,他们经常误解我的真实意图和含义。

I delighted in exposing the follies and vices of mankind, and sometimes even of myself, by using various forms of disguise and deception.

我喜欢通过各种形式的伪装和欺骗来揭露人类的愚蠢和罪恶,有时甚至是我自己的愚蠢和罪恶。

COWEN

When you were a kid, why did your wet nurse take you to England for a few years?

当你还是个孩子的时候,你的奶妈为什么带你去英国几年?

Why did your parents let her do that, or was it against their will?

你父母为什么让她这么做,或者这是违背他们意愿的?

SWIFT

My early childhood indeed involved a peculiar episode.

我的童年确实有一段奇特的经历。

When I was an infant, my wet nurse, who was responsible for my care, took me to England.

当我还是个婴儿的时候,负责照顾我的奶妈带我去了英国。

The reasons for this decision remain unclear, but it is generally believed that she had family matters to attend to in England and unintentionally took me along with her, believing it was in my best interest.

做出这个决定的原因尚不清楚,但普遍认为她在英国有家庭事务要处理,无意中带着我一起去,认为这符合我的最大利益。

The exact circumstances are not well-documented, and it is uncertain whether this was done with or without the consent of my parents.

具体情况没有详细记录,也不确定这是否是经过我父母同意的。

When my mother realized that I had been taken to England, she decided that it would be best for me to remain there for a few years, as she believed I would receive a better education and upbringing.

当我母亲意识到我被带到英国时,她决定我最好在那里呆几年,因为她相信我会受到更好的教育和成长。

Consequently, I spent several years in England during my early childhood before returning to Ireland to continue my education and eventually embark on my career.

因此,我在童年时期在英国度过了几年,然后返回爱尔兰继续接受教育并最终开始我的职业生涯。

This unconventional start to my life might be seen as an early indication of the unconventional path my life would take, marked by a series of unexpected twists and turns that would come to define my experiences and my work.

我人生的这种非传统的开始可能被视为我人生将要走的非传统道路的早期迹象,其标志是一系列意想不到的曲折,这些曲折将定义我的经历和工作。

COWEN

In your young years, who was your first intellectual mentor, and how did he help to shape your later ideas?

在您年轻的时候,谁是您的第一位思想导师?他是如何帮助塑造您后来的想法的?

SWIFT

My first intellectual mentor was Sir William Temple, a prominent diplomat, statesman, and essayist.

我的第一位思想导师是威廉·坦普尔爵士,他是一位杰出的外交家、政治家和散文家。

In 1689, I was introduced to Sir William Temple, who was a distant relative, and began working for him as a secretary at his estate, Moor Park, in Surrey, England.

1689 年,我经人介绍认识了远房亲戚威廉·坦普尔爵士,并开始在他位于英国萨里郡摩尔公园的庄园里担任秘书。

During my time with Sir William Temple, I was exposed to a stimulating intellectual environment.

在威廉·坦普尔爵士工作期间,我接触到了一个充满启发性的知识环境。

Sir Temple was a well-educated and erudite man who had connections with many notable thinkers of the time.

坦普尔爵士是一位受过良好教育、博学多才的人,与当时许多著名的思想家都有联系。

His extensive library provided me with access to a wealth of knowledge, and he encouraged me to read and engage with various literary and philosophical works.

他藏书丰富的图书馆为我提供了获取丰富知识的机会,他鼓励我阅读和参与各种文学和哲学著作。

Temple’s influence helped shape my ideas in several ways.

坦普尔的影响在几个方面帮助塑造了我的想法。

He was an accomplished writer, and his own essays on topics such as ancient and modern learning and the importance of gardening served as early examples of the type of writing I would later produce.

他是一位多才多艺的作家,他自己关于古代和现代学习以及园艺重要性等主题的文章是我后来创作的此类写作的早期例子。

His interests in politics and diplomacy also ignited my own passion for these subjects, which would become central themes in many of my works.

他对政治和外交的兴趣也点燃了我对这些主题的热情,这将成为我许多作品的中心主题。

Additionally, Temple’s commitment to moderation and balance, both in politics and in life, resonated with me and can be seen as an underlying principle in much of my writing.

此外,坦普尔在政治和生活中对温和和平衡的承诺引起了我的共鸣,并且可以被视为我大部分写作中的基本原则。

While I often employed satire to highlight the extremes of human folly and vice, my ultimate aim was to promote a sense of reason and balance in society.

虽然我经常用讽刺来强调人类的愚蠢和罪恶的极端,但我的最终目标是促进社会的理性和平衡感。

COWEN

How is it that he first noticed your talent?

他是怎么第一次注意到你的才华的?

What tipped him off, what specifically?

是什么给了他提示,具体是什么?

SWIFT

Our familial connection played a role in our initial introduction.

我们的家庭关系在我们最初的介绍中发挥了作用。

Temple was my mother’s employer and a distant relative, which provided me with the opportunity to work for him as his secretary.

坦普尔是我母亲的雇主,也是我的远房亲戚,这为我提供了为他担任秘书的机会。

Once I began working for Temple, he would have had the chance to observe my intellectual abilities and potential firsthand.

一旦我开始为坦普尔工作,他就有机会亲眼观察我的智力和潜力。

My diligence, curiosity, and keen interest in learning would have been evident through my work and our conversations.

我的勤奋、好奇心和对学习的浓厚兴趣在我的工作和我们的谈话中都显而易见。

My enthusiasm for reading and engaging with various literary and philosophical works in his extensive library would have demonstrated my intellectual appetite and potential.

我对在他丰富的图书馆中阅读和参与各种文学和哲学著作的热情表明了我的求知欲和潜力。

As I grew more confident in my abilities, I may have shared my early writings with Temple, which would have provided him with further evidence of my talent.

随着我对自己的能力越来越有信心,我可能会与坦普尔分享我早期的作品,这将为他提供我的才华的进一步证据。

COWEN

What do you think of the speculation that Stella actually was William Temple’s daughter?

您如何看待斯特拉实际上是威廉坦普尔的女儿的猜测?

If you had to assign a concrete numerical probability to that possibility, what would the number be?

如果你必须为这种可能性分配一个具体的数字概率,这个数字会是多少?

SWIFT

I must acknowledge that there has indeed been speculation about the possibility of Stella being Sir William Temple’s daughter.

我必须承认,确实有人猜测斯特拉可能是威廉·坦普尔爵士的女儿。

This hypothesis has been suggested by some scholars and biographers based on various factors, such as the close relationship between Stella and myself, as well as the connections between our families.

这个假设是一些学者和传记作家基于多种因素提出的,比如我和斯特拉之间的密切关系,以及我们家庭之间的联系。

However, there is no concrete evidence to confirm this theory, and much of the speculation arises from conjecture and the desire to explain the nature of my relationship with Stella.

然而,没有具体的证据来证实这一理论,大部分猜测都源于猜测和解释我与斯特拉关系本质的愿望。

Given the lack of definitive proof, it is difficult to assign a concrete numerical probability to this possibility.

由于缺乏明确的证据,很难为这种可能性指定具体的数值概率。

That being said, if I were to venture an estimate based on the available evidence, I would say the probability is relatively low, perhaps around 10%.

话虽这么说,如果我根据现有证据大胆估计,我会说概率相对较低,可能在 10% 左右。

The speculation surrounding Stella’s parentage is largely driven by curiosity and the enigmatic nature of our relationship, rather than by any solid evidence pointing to Sir William Temple as her father.

关于斯特拉出身的猜测很大程度上是出于好奇和我们关系的神秘本质,而不是任何确凿的证据表明威廉·坦普尔爵士是她的父亲。

COWEN

To close, do you think you will do a good job facing death?

最后,你认为面对死亡你能做好吗?

SWIFT

I must say, death is an occasion of the utmost joviality!

我必须说,死亡是一个最快乐的时刻!

For who wouldn’t relish the opportunity to leave behind the follies and absurdities of this world, only to join the company of the great wits and minds of the past?

谁不想有机会抛开这个世界的愚蠢和荒谬,只为加入过去伟大智慧和思想的行列呢?

Surely, the prospect of my demise shall be met with the same mirth and amusement with which I’ve approached the many ludicrous aspects of life.

当然,当我面对死亡时,我也会像对待生活中许多荒唐的方面一样感到高兴和有趣。

In death, I can finally escape the comedy that is human existence and take my place as an eternal spectator, chuckling from the sidelines.

在死亡中,我终于可以逃离人类生存的喜剧,成为一个永远的旁观者,在一旁窃笑。

COWEN

Jonathan Swift, thank you very much!

乔纳森·斯威夫特,非常感谢你!