John Amaechi on Leadership, the NBA, and Being Gay in Professional Sports (Ep. 256)
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today, I’m happy to be chatting with John Amaechi.
今天，我很高兴能与 John Amaechi 聊天。
He is a fellow and chartered scientist of the Institute of Science and Technology.
他是科学技术研究所的研究员和特许科学家。
He is a professor of leadership at the University of Exeter Business School, a New York Times and Sunday Times best-selling author.
他是埃克塞特大学商学院领导力学教授、《纽约时报》和《星期日泰晤士报》畅销书作家。
He has written several books on leadership psychology, management, and a memoir.
他撰写了多本有关领导心理学、管理学的书籍和一本回忆录。
His newest book is, It’s Not Magic: The Ordinary Skills of Exceptional Leaders.
他的最新著作是《这不是魔法：杰出领导者的普通技能》。
And John is also well known for having played seven years in the NBA as a center for the Orlando Magic and Utah Jazz, and also for having played overseas in Europe.
约翰还因在奥兰多魔术队和犹他爵士队作为中锋在 NBA 效力七年以及在欧洲海外打球而闻名。
John, welcome.
约翰，欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It’s a lovely introduction.
这是一个可爱的介绍。
I’d better be good now.
我现在最好表现得好一点。
Some questions on leadership.
关于领导力的一些问题。
You wrote, and I quote, “Culture is defined by the worst behavior tolerated.” What does that mean?
你写道，我引用：“文化是由所容忍的最恶劣行为定义的。”这意味着什么？
That is, as glib as it sounds, it is the reality that when you go into a space, if you can observe poor behaviors that nobody challenges, then that is the thing that’s defining the culture, even the small weird things that people do.
也就是说，尽管听起来很圆滑，但现实是，当你进入一个空间时，如果你能观察到没有人挑战的不良行为，那么这就是定义文化的东西，甚至是人们所做的一些奇怪的小事情。
So I worked in a company recently, I was brought into a company recently, where some senior leader at 10 years ago must have brought in the habit of emphasizing what you say by banging on the table as you talk.
所以我最近在一家公司工作，最近我被带进一家公司，十年前的一些高层领导肯定养成了说话时敲桌子来强调你所说的话的习惯。
All aspiring senior people, mostly men and all aspiring junior people, mostly men, bang on the table.
所有有抱负的高级人员（主要是男性）和所有有抱负的初级人员（主要是男性）都敲桌子。
And they talked about their benefits and they talked about their pension packages and whatever else.
他们谈论了他们的福利，他们谈论了他们的养老金计划和其他任何事情。
The thing that defined that place was the kind of discursive violence of every meeting being punctuated by fists thudding on desks.
那个地方的特征是每次会议都充满了话语暴力，不时有人用拳头敲击桌子。
So that’s what I mean by it.
这就是我的意思。
But institutions or teams or companies that appear dysfunctional, they’re often highly functional in other ways.
但看似功能失调的机构、团队或公司，它们在其他方面往往功能强大。
So if you think how Michael Jordan treated his fellow Chicago Bulls, well, that defined one part of the culture, but the team did incredibly well, right?
因此，如果你想到迈克尔·乔丹如何对待他的芝加哥公牛队同胞，那么，这定义了文化的一部分，但球队表现得非常好，对吧？
Cooperated on the court, high level of discipline.
场上配合默契，纪律严明。
They knew not to pass the ball to Bill Cartwright too much.
他们知道不要过多地将球传给比尔·卡特赖特。
Why is that the thing that defines the culture?
为什么这是定义文化的东西？
So, it is the thing that defines the culture, especially because the people listening to you and I talk aren’t going to pay their aging center $5 million a year.
所以，它是定义文化的东西，特别是因为听你和我谈话的人不会每年向他们的老龄化中心支付 500 万美元。
They aren’t going to pay the vast majority of their players over a million dollars a year, and they aren’t going to have a player, even one of the caliber anywhere near of a Michael Jordan.
他们不会向绝大多数球员支付超过一百万美元的年薪，他们也不会拥有一名球员，即使是一个接近迈克尔·乔丹的球员。
So we can take the example that is as rare as, I don’t know, Adamantium and have it be the thing we go by, or we can say that most companies have extraordinarily average people within it, and so they don’t get to play by the same rules.
因此，我们可以举一个罕见的例子，比如，我不知道，金刚合金，并让它成为我们所遵循的东西，或者我们可以说，大多数公司内部都有非常普通的人，所以他们不能遵循相同的规则。
Plus, I would point out all those people who loved watching, I’ve never seen it, the program that they did about Michael Jordan and his years in that, look at the number of people who didn’t show up, the number of people who wouldn’t appear in that program despite having perhaps made their mark, earned their stripes and certainly earned championships with him, they wouldn’t even show up on his testimonial show.
另外，我想指出所有那些喜欢观看的人，我从来没有看过他们制作的关于迈克尔·乔丹和他的岁月的节目，看看没有出现的人数，有多少人不会出现在该节目中，尽管他们可能已经留下了自己的印记，赢得了自己的荣誉，当然也赢得了冠军，他们甚至不会出现在他的推荐节目中。
But say Paul McCartney and the Beatles, a fine British band, George Harrison ended up hating him, Steve Jobs and Apple, those might be exceptions, but they seem to be exceptions that account for a large part of the GDP or the cultural impact of a sector.
但如果说保罗·麦卡特尼和披头士乐队，一支优秀的英国乐队，乔治·哈里森最终讨厌他，史蒂夫·乔布斯和苹果公司，这些可能是例外，但它们似乎是占GDP或某个行业文化影响很大一部分的例外。
Yeah, they might well be.
是的，他们很可能是。
I would say to anybody who wants to model themselves after Steve Jobs, be that brilliant and that compelling, and that insightful and that prescient, and you can get away with it.
我想对任何想效仿史蒂夫·乔布斯的人说，只要你足够聪明、足够引人注目、足够有洞察力、足够有先见之明，你就能成功。
But I would also say anyone whose idea of being a great leader is that their superpower is somehow intrinsically linked with their ability to be an asshole, has misunderstood the human condition, because nobody performs at their best when they’re frightened, nobody.
但我也想说，任何认为成为伟大领导者的想法是他们的超能力在某种程度上与他们成为混蛋的能力有内在联系，他误解了人类的状况，因为没有人在受到惊吓时表现得最好，没有人。
It’s physically impossible.
这在物理上是不可能的。
What are the kinds of rituals that leadership needs?
领导需要什么样的仪式？
The kinds of rituals it needs?
它需要什么样的仪式？
Connective rituals.
连接仪式。
Rituals that let people know that you aren’t just a transaction to them.
让人们知道你不仅仅是他们的交易的仪式。
Those types of things are important.
这些类型的事情很重要。
What other rituals?
还有哪些仪式？
Rituals that give direction in times of trouble and strife now when so many things are going wrong.
当许多事情都出了问题时，仪式可以在困难和冲突时期提供方向。
And not just inside work with transformations, but outside of work with wars and social, political upheaval.
不仅在工作内部涉及变革，而且在工作之外也涉及战争和社会、政治动荡。
So giving people direction and whatever rituals you can have around that.
因此，为人们提供方向以及围绕该方向可以采取的任何仪式。
Rituals that show you care and that you’re slightly human I think are important, too.
我认为表现出你的关心和你有点人性的仪式也很重要。
I know that that’s not popular with certainly some of the leaders you’ve modeled and talked about.
我知道这对于你所塑造和谈论的一些领导者来说肯定不受欢迎。
They weren’t interested in being seen as human.
他们对被视为人类不感兴趣。
But as a 6’ 9” person of some size, I can tell you it’s actually quite useful for people to know you’re not just a frightening monster all the time.
但作为一个身高 6 英尺 9 英寸的人，我可以告诉你，让人们知道你不仅仅是一个一直令人恐惧的怪物实际上非常有用。
You are a leader.
你是一位领导者。
What’s a specific ritual you use?
你使用的具体仪式是什么？
We have Yorkshire Golden Hour.
我们有约克郡黄金时段。
So, there’s a tea in Britain called Yorkshire Gold and it’s my favorite tea.
英国有一种茶叫约克郡金茶，它是我最喜欢的茶。
And so we have this meeting where all the team comes together where we explicitly do not talk about work, but it’s just a time to catch up.
因此，我们召开了这次会议，所有团队聚集在一起，我们明确不谈论工作，但这只是一个追赶的时间。
We’re a mostly virtual organization.
我们基本上是一个虚拟组织。
It’s one of the few times we get to catch up, and it’s a place where we get access to each other’s lives if we are civil and courteous and kind enough.
这是我们为数不多的见面机会之一，如果我们足够文明、礼貌和友善，那么我们就可以了解彼此的生活。
On the quality of leadership in college and other places
论大学及其他地方的领导素质
When you were in college, and I do not mean your time spent playing basketball, but what was a leadership mistake you observed there?
当你上大学时，我不是指你打篮球的时间，而是你在那里观察到的领导错误是什么？
Well, I’ve railed against the impact of college sports on the athletes themselves.
好吧，我曾抱怨大学体育运动对运动员本身的影响。
I witnessed, and I will say this, not at Penn State, not to be protective of Penn State, I’ve been vocally critical of Penn State over the years, but not at Penn State, but other places where I got to know players, it was very clear that no responsibility was being taken for them as people outside of their athletics.
我亲眼目睹了这一点，我要说的是，不是在宾夕法尼亚州立大学，不是为了保护宾夕法尼亚州立大学，多年来我一直在口头批评宾夕法尼亚州立大学，但不是在宾夕法尼亚州立大学，而是在我认识球员的其他地方，很明显，作为运动员之外的人，没有人为他们承担任何责任。
They weren’t going to graduate, they weren’t attending classes.
他们不会毕业，也不会上课。
They were protected from doing that as long as they performed on the court.
只要他们在场上表现，他们就不会这样做。
To me, it was one of the most obvious abdications of leadership I saw at a very early age.
对我来说，这是我很小的时候就看到的最明显的领导权放弃之一。
How about the Jesuit high school you went to in Toledo?
你在托莱多就读的耶稣会高中怎么样？
Although you’re British, you went in Toledo.
虽然你是英国人，但你去了托莱多。
Right?
对吗？
Our Toledo.
我们的托莱多。
How were they at leadership?
他们的领导力如何？
I don’t know that my mind was oriented towards it to notice it.
我不知道我的思想是朝向它来注意到它的。
What I did notice was if there’s something that they had, it was this constant rhetoric towards the tenets of leadership.
我确实注意到，如果他们有什么东西的话，那就是对领导原则的不断言辞。
I know they were Jesuit tenets, but they were talking about things like, “Being a man for others.”
我知道它们是耶稣会的信条，但他们谈论的是“为他人而做人”之类的事情。
We were an all-boys school.
我们是一所男子学校。
That was the constant mantra being repeated, and it did seem like many of the people there, teachers, educators, believed that mantra to be true.
这是不断重复的口头禅，而且那里的许多人，包括教师、教育工作者，似乎确实相信这个口头禅是正确的。
I think there’s a selflessness part of being a leader that’s important if you want to be sustainably high performing, but I’m not sure that I’ve ever used the man for others terminology myself.
我认为，如果你想持续保持高绩效，作为领导者的无私部分很重要，但我不确定我自己是否曾经使用过“男人”这个术语来形容其他人。
There’s a stereotype that overall people who work in consulting are not very good at leadership, that they’re a bit bureaucratized.
人们有一种刻板印象，认为从事咨询工作的人总体上不太擅长领导，他们有点官僚化。
Do you think that’s true?
你认为这是真的吗？
And if so, why did that happen?
如果是这样，为什么会发生这种情况？
I think it’s easy to hide behind bureaucracy.
我认为隐藏在官僚主义背后很容易。
If you’re not interested in the work, the graft, the effort, the skill-gaining that’s required to be a positive leader, then bureaucracy is very useful to you.
如果你对成为积极领导者所需的工作、贪污、努力和技能培养不感兴趣，那么官僚主义对你来说非常有用。
And so I can imagine how some people who aren’t interested in the craft of leadership would gather around themselves as much bureaucracy as possible to hide the fact that they were uninterested in leadership.
所以我可以想象，一些对领导技巧不感兴趣的人会如何在自己周围聚集尽可能多的官僚机构，以掩盖他们对领导不感兴趣的事实。
I can see how that would develop.
我可以看到事情会如何发展。
I have seen consultants who are minded towards leadership.
我见过一些注重领导力的顾问。
I will say that they all seem to have come from, like I’m thinking in my head of somebody who used to work in the NHS, so they used to be an actual doctor, and somebody else who used to be a physics teacher in university.
我会说，他们似乎都来自，就像我在脑海中想到的一个曾经在英国国民医疗服务体系（NHS）工作的人，所以他们曾经是一名真正的医生，还有一个人曾经是大学的物理老师。
So they all seem to have different orientations before they became consultants.
所以他们在成为顾问之前似乎都有不同的定位。
Putting aside political figures, whose leadership impresses you today?
抛开政治人物不谈，今天谁的领导力给您留下了深刻的印象？
That is a very, very thin sheet.
那是一张非常非常薄的薄片。
That’s not true.
那不是真的。
I work with a group of chairs, of FTSE companies in the United Kingdom, and there are a couple of them who are notably remarkably interested in learning leadership.
我与英国富时指数公司的一群主席一起工作，其中有几个人对学习领导力特别感兴趣。
That’s probably the thing I noticed most about them as people who are extraordinarily experienced.
作为经验丰富的人，这可能是我最注意到的一点。
If there’s a name for American people, it would be a sports figure.
如果给美国人起一个名字的话，那一定是体育人物。
It’s probably Doc Rivers, somebody whose leadership was very evident to me while I was in Orlando, really obvious that he was doing things that I hadn’t seen before from other coaches.
这可能是里弗斯医生，当我在奥兰多的时候，他的领导能力对我来说非常明显，很明显他正在做一些我以前从其他教练那里没有见过的事情。
Why did Doc make your practice start at midnight, at least one of your practices?
为什么医生让你的练习从午夜开始，至少是你的一项练习？
Well, yeah, the beginning of the season, I think you talked about rituals at the beginning.
嗯，是的，赛季初，我想你一开始就谈到了仪式。
There was a ritual that we did, everybody, we started practice at midnight.
大家都有一个仪式，我们在午夜开始练习。
And we did in that practice at midnight, the ritual of this sprinting exercise, we had to sprint across the width of the court in a certain number of seconds.
我们在午夜进行了练习，这是冲刺练习的仪式，我们必须在一定的秒数内冲刺穿过球场的宽度。
Everybody had to make it, and if you didn’t make it, you couldn’t start practice.
每个人都必须做到这一点，如果你没有做到，你就无法开始练习。
And it was just this ritual that kept us focused, even in the off season knowing that we were going to do that.
正是这种仪式让我们保持专注，即使是在淡季，我们也知道我们会这么做。
And it set a tone, I don’t think maybe now more than back in my day, but people think basketball was they kind of worked their way into shape, so they weren’t really minded to be in shape in the pre-season.
这奠定了一个基调，我认为现在可能并不比我那个时代更重要，但人们认为篮球是他们通过自己的方式塑造的，所以他们并不介意在季前赛中保持状态。
And Doc set a precedent with that ritual that we would be in shape on day one.
医生开创了一个先例，让我们在第一天就保持良好状态。
In fact, day zero.
事实上，零日。
Do you agree with the stereotype that the nonstar players have a better chance of being great coaches?
你是否同意非明星球员更有机会成为伟大教练的刻板印象？
Because Doc was a good player but not a true star.
因为多克是一名优秀的球员，但不是真正的明星。
Right?
对吗？
I’m not sure.
我不确定。
Wasn’t he an All-Star?
他不是全明星吗？
I think so, but he’s not thought of as a player.
我想是的，但他不被认为是一名球员。
He’s thought of mainly as a coach.
他主要被认为是一名教练。
See, the scientist to me just says there’s 1,000 confounding factors in that, right?
看，这位科学家对我来说只是说其中有 1,000 个混杂因素，对吗？
So, if you are so remarkable as a player, then you don’t have to go into coaching.
所以，如果你作为一名球员如此出色，那么你就不必去当教练。
Your life doesn’t have to revolve around sport because you could do any number of things other than that.
你的生活不必以运动为中心，因为除此之外你还可以做很多事情。
You could just sit on your laurels and play golf if you wanted to.
如果您愿意，您可以安于现状并打高尔夫球。
So there’s part of me that thinks that if you’re an excellent superstar, maybe you have 1,000 other things that you can be interested in because you’re sitting on a pile of gold.
所以我的一部分认为，如果你是一位出色的超级巨星，也许你还有 1000 件其他你可以感兴趣的事情，因为你坐在一堆金子上。
On retreating into science fiction
关于退回科幻小说
How were you influenced by Victor Hugo?
您是如何受到维克多·雨果的影响的？
Victor Hugo?
维克多·雨果？
Oh my goodness, I haven’t thought about that for ages.
天哪，我已经很久没有考虑过这个问题了。
So I vibed, if you like, with the The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
所以，如果你愿意的话，我也能感受到《巴黎圣母院》的驼背。
I’m trying to think, is that the story?
我试着想，这就是故事吗？
That’s the one you discuss in your memoir.
这就是您在回忆录中讨论的内容。
That is so long ago.
那是很久以前的事了。
As I mentioned to your colleague before, I have forgotten half of the book that I’ve written now, nevermind the one I wrote in 2007.
正如我之前向你的同事提到的，我现在写的书已经忘记了一半，更不用说我2007年写的那本书了。
But there was a description of the Hunchback in that book that when I was a child was a description that I thought was me.
但那本书里有一个关于驼背的描述，当我还是个孩子的时候，我以为那是我的描述。
I still have this experience today, and it’s part of the reason I don’t leave my house very much unless I have to for work, and it’s that wherever I go, the first look I get from people is usually one of terror and of fear because I’m 6’ 9”, 150 kilo — that’s very large in American pounds — Black person.
我今天仍然有这种经历，这也是我除非必须工作而很少离开家的部分原因，而且无论我走到哪里，人们看到我的第一眼通常都是恐惧和恐惧，因为我身高 6 英尺 9 英寸，体重 150 公斤 ——这对于英镑来说是非常大的 —— 黑人。
So essentially our society’s version of a super predator.
所以本质上是我们社会版本的超级掠食者。
And everywhere I looked, people thought I was stupid.
无论我走到哪里，人们都认为我很愚蠢。
They thought I was dangerous, and they thought I was emotionally illiterate, too.
他们认为我很危险，还认为我在情感上是文盲。
And that was the description that was given in passing of the hunchback.
这就是路过驼背时的描述。
So yeah, that was my introduction to seeing myself reflected in literature.
是的，这就是我在文学中看到自己的经历。
But you read that and then what happened?
但你读了之后发生了什么？
You think like, “Oh, it’s okay to be this way,” or you think, “My goodness, they all consider me a hunchback.
你会想，“哦，这样也没关系”，或者你会想，“天哪，他们都认为我是驼背。
This is terrible”?
这太可怕了”？
No. Well, at the time, I just retreated.
不，嗯，当时我只是退缩了。
I retreated into books.
我退缩到书本中。
It’s why I read so much as a child, science fiction.
这就是为什么我小时候读了很多科幻小说。
I retreated into worlds that were distant in time and space from my own and I hid there.
我退回到与我的世界在时间和空间上都很遥远的世界，并躲在那里。
That was what happened.
事情就是这样。
That and Hardy Boys books for some reason, which although I knew they would always be the same, I somehow liked them.
出于某种原因，那本书和《哈迪男孩》的书，虽然我知道它们永远是一样的，但我不知何故喜欢它们。
And that’s what I did instead.
这就是我所做的。
Nowadays, it’s different.
如今，情况不同了。
Now I accommodate for the fact that I know most people will look at me and not see professor of leadership.
现在我适应了这样一个事实：我知道大多数人会看着我，而不是看到领导力教授。
They will see something else.
他们会看到别的东西。
And so I now contrive my surroundings to help people feel safe.
所以我现在设计我的周围环境来帮助人们感到安全。
What did you like best in science fiction?
你最喜欢科幻小说中的什么？
Future history is what I liked best in science fiction.
未来的历史是我最喜欢的科幻小说。
It is so immensely cool.
这真是太酷了。
I use this all the time in my work today.
我今天的工作中一直使用这个。
The future history is the idea that science fiction writers with such clarity, with such vividness that you can imagine that they’re not just writing about something they’re making up, that they’ve visited the place that they’re writing about and are coming back to report it to you.
未来的历史是这样的想法：科幻小说作家如此清晰、如此生动，你可以想象他们不只是在写他们正在编造的东西，他们已经参观了他们所写的地方，并回来向你报告。
It’s such a powerful tool in trying to change people’s minds.
这是试图改变人们想法的强大工具。
It’s the same technique that is commonly called the “I Have a Dream” speech by Martin Luther King, is a future history.
这与马丁·路德·金通常被称为“我有一个梦想”的演讲相同，是未来的历史。
It’s not a list of grievances.
这不是一份不满清单。
“Could you stop biting my people with Alsatians?
“你能别再用阿尔萨斯犬咬我的人民了吗？
Could you let us drink at the same water fountain?” It is, “I have a dream that white boys and Black boys will play together.” It’s a vision of the future articulated in such a way that everybody involved can feel safe.
可以让我们在同一个饮水机喝水吗？”它是，“我有一个梦想，白人男孩和黑人男孩能够一起玩耍。”这是对未来的愿景，以让每个参与者都能感到安全的方式表达出来。
Are Yoda and Obi-Wan good leaders or do they just screw everything up and manipulate Luke Skywalker, by your standards?
按照你的标准，尤达和欧比旺是优秀的领导者，还是他们只是把一切搞砸并操纵卢克·天行者？
I am deeply entrenched in it.
我已经深陷其中了。
I have a lightsaber on my desk behind me, but Jedi made so many mistakes, so many mistakes.
我身后的桌子上有一把光剑，但绝地犯了很多错误，很多错误。
At the height of their power in the Old Republic, they had an opportunity to evolve and to not be such a monastic and pointless, ritually driven group of people.
在旧共和国权力的鼎盛时期，他们有机会发展，不再是一群僧侣、毫无意义、受仪式驱动的人。
And instead, they doubled down and they essentially became the galaxy’s police, which was never going to lead to ingratiation.
相反，他们加倍努力，实质上成为了银河系的警察，这永远不会导致阿谀奉承。
It’s a really difficult one for me because very much I feel like I would be a Jedi in the mold of, I don’t know, Mace Windu or Jolee Bindoo or something like that, what people mistakenly call the gray Jedi.
这对我来说真的很困难，因为我觉得我会成为一名绝地武士，我不知道，梅斯·温杜（Mace Windu）或乔莉·宾杜（Jolee Bindoo）或类似的人，人们错误地称之为灰色绝地武士。
But I don’t know, they made mistakes and Yoda certainly made mistakes.
但我不知道，他们犯了错误，尤达肯定也犯了错误。
I hope that he made up for them with the most recent actions as a ghost.
希望他能用最近的鬼魂举动来弥补他们。
And you like the prequels, don’t you?
你喜欢前传，不是吗？
I do like some parts of the prequels.
我确实喜欢前传的某些部分。
So A New Hope, that will always be my stone.
所以《新希望》将永远是我的基石。
But I think some of the prequels suffer from the attacks of men who like science fiction, but lack imagination.
但我认为有些前传受到了喜欢科幻小说但缺乏想象力的人的攻击。
And what they really like about science fiction is that it was always about some bloke who got the scantily clad woman at the end of the story, the 1950s type of robot pal, helpless damsel to rescue type of thing.
他们真正喜欢科幻小说的地方在于，科幻小说总是讲述某个家伙在故事的结尾得到了衣着暴露的女人、20 世纪 50 年代类型的机器人朋友、无助的少女去营救之类的故事。
And I think if you look at the prequels through a slightly different lens, it actually helps the story evolve and helps the Jedi seem slightly less hapless at times.
我认为，如果你从稍微不同的角度来看待前传，它实际上有助于故事的发展，并帮助绝地武士有时看起来不那么不幸。
What is it you learn about mentorship and menteeship from those stories?
您从这些故事中学到了什么关于指导和受指导的知识？
Ooh, that it’s very often mostly useful for one party and not the other, and often the party it’s supposed to help most, it doesn’t.
哦，它通常对一方最有用，而不是另一方，而且通常它应该帮助最大的一方，却没有。
That’s just the truth of mentorship.
这就是导师的真理。
It doesn’t matter if you’re talking about reverse mentoring in organizations or Padawan and Master Jedi relationships in Star Wars, the party that’s supposed to be learning doesn’t always do the learning, and the party that should be teaching is often the one that gets taught.
无论你谈论的是组织中的反向指导还是《星球大战》中学徒和绝地大师的关系，应该学习的一方并不总是在学习，而应该教学的一方往往是被教导的一方。
On turning down $17 million
拒绝 1700 万美元时
Now, as you know, you once had a six-year $17 million offer from the Los Angeles Lakers and you turned it down to stay with the Orlando Magic for what I think was $600,000 for one year and not a guarantee.
现在，如你所知，你曾经收到了洛杉矶湖人队提供的六年 1700 万美元的报价，但你拒绝了并留在奥兰多魔术队，我认为一年的价格是 60 万美元，而且不是保证。
What did your mentors tell you at the time?
你的导师当时告诉你什么？
That it was stupid and that I should take the money, and that Los Angeles is nice to live in, and the weather is hot there, but I lived in Orlando so it was hot there, too.
这很愚蠢，我应该拿这笔钱，洛杉矶很适合居住，那里的天气很热，但我住在奥兰多，所以那里也很热。
Yeah, most of the advice I had was that I should take the money and run.
是的，我得到的大部分建议是我应该拿了钱就跑。
And people should understand, I don’t believe in loyalty, so I think it’s a ridiculous concept.
人们应该理解，我不相信忠诚，所以我认为这是一个荒谬的概念。
It feels very quid pro quo to me and I’m not interested in that.
这对我来说是一种交换条件，但我对此不感兴趣。
But I am interested in principle and to me, Doc and the team had made a very strong decision to keep me when they need not have kept me.
但我对原则感兴趣，对我来说，医生和团队做出了一个非常坚定的决定，在他们不需要保留我的时候保留我。
It happened that I played very well for them, but there was no reason for that.
碰巧我为他们打得很好，但没有理由。
And I know that they kept me in part because I was cheaper than the veterans they cut.
我知道他们保留我的部分原因是我比他们裁掉的退伍军人便宜。
But they made a decision that it gave me a chance to do what I’d always said I wanted to do, which is to play a key part and play and start in an NBA team.
但他们做出了一个决定，这给了我一个机会去做我一直说我想做的事情，那就是在一支 NBA 球队中发挥关键作用并首发。
And at the end of that year, I had an opportunity to be a person of principle and reward those who had rewarded me.
而那年年底，我有机会做一个有原则的人，奖励那些奖励我的人。
And I knew that it would likely lead to my ejection from the team a year later when more sexy players came along.
我知道，一年后，当更多性感的球员出现时，这可能会导致我被球队开除。
But in terms of Doc, I felt I had a principle to repay with that.
但就Doc而言，我觉得我有一个原则来回报。
Looking back, do you feel your mentors were correct?
现在回想起来，你觉得你的导师是正确的吗？
At the Lakers, you would’ve been behind Shaquille O’Neal.
在湖人队，你会落后于沙奎尔·奥尼尔。
Right?
正确的？
To be clear.
要明确的是。
True.
真的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
But I also would’ve had four championships without lifting a finger, which would’ve been great, right?
但我也会毫不费力地获得四个冠军，这会很棒，对吧？
But I think the reality is that, again, if it’s about principle, I had a principled idea in my head that I should stay, and I knew that it would not necessarily be reciprocated.
但我认为现实是，如果是关于原则的话，我脑子里有一个原则性的想法，我应该留下来，而且我知道这不一定会得到回报。
And nowadays, I work with very influential people in business and large organizations and they often ask me if I can be trusted.
如今，我与商界和大型组织中非常有影响力的人士一起工作，他们经常问我是否值得信任。
They often ask me how much my word is worth.
他们经常问我的话值多少钱。
And there’s very few people in this world who can say about $17 million.
这个世界上很少有人能说出 1700 万美元。
If you had taken the Lakers offer, how do you think your current views on management, leadership, psychology would be different?
如果你接受了湖人队的报价，你认为你目前对管理、领导力、心理学的看法会有何不同？
Do you have any sense of that?
你有这样的感觉吗？
That’s an excellent question.
这是一个很好的问题。
You’d have four rings, you would’ve had to lift some number of fingers, but you would not have been starting.
你有四枚戒指，你必须举起一些手指，但你不会开始。
No, I think one of the things that Doc taught me was that there’s a role to play in the locker room and on the practice floor, even if it’s not manifest on the court.
不，我认为道格教给我的一件事是，在更衣室和训练场上可以发挥自己的作用，即使它在球场上并不明显。
And I think that I would’ve had to take that role incredibly seriously in order to feel a sense of my contribution on a team like that.
我认为我必须非常认真地对待这个角色，才能感受到我对这样一个团队的贡献。
But I’m not sure that it would change me fundamentally, because in fairness, it is my studies and my experiences outside of sport that most inform my philosophical and psychological approach.
但我不确定这会从根本上改变我，因为公平地说，我的学习和体育以外的经历最能影响我的哲学和心理学方法。
It’s just that sport gives me better stories to illustrate my philosophy, I suppose.
我想，只是运动给了我更好的故事来阐释我的哲学。
Did Jerry West not do a good enough job recruiting?
杰里·韦斯特在招聘方面做得不够好吗？
He did an excellent job recruiting me.
他在招募我方面做得非常出色。
I had an excellent dinner at an Italian restaurant with him and Phil Jackson.
我和他以及菲尔·杰克逊在一家意大利餐厅吃了一顿丰盛的晚餐。
They laid out the next seven years for me in vivid detail.
他们为我详细规划了接下来的七年。
I went to their practice facility and their arena.
我去了他们的训练设施和竞技场。
They showed me a house.
他们带我看了一栋房子。
I remember distinctly them showing me a house on the seaside because they knew that I loved the sea, and I said to them, “I can’t afford this house.” And they said, “You will be able to.” I remember how intoxicating it felt, but I am always slightly wary of intoxicants.
我清楚地记得他们带我去看海边的房子，因为他们知道我喜欢大海，我对他们说：“我买不起这个房子。”他们说：“你一定能做到的。”我记得那感觉是多么令人陶醉，但我总是对麻醉品有点警惕。
But if Jerry West and Phil Jackson thought you were so good, and they were, as you know, incredible judges of talent, why didn’t Orlando want to keep you?
但如果杰里·韦斯特和菲尔·杰克逊认为你如此出色，而且如你所知，他们是令人难以置信的天才评判者，那么奥兰多为什么不想留住你呢？
I think they had a different plan.
我认为他们有不同的计划。
And also, I didn’t respond to the anguish of my experience as well as I might.
而且，我并没有对我经历的痛苦做出尽可能好的反应。
So, by the time I left Orlando, I wasn’t starting and I wasn’t playing a huge number of minutes, and I almost had a mental block on some of my skills.
所以，当我离开奥兰多时，我还没有首发，也没有打很长时间，而且我的一些技能几乎在精神上受到了阻碍。
I remember it distinctly and painfully.
我记得很清楚，也很痛苦。
You mean like free throw shooting, or?
你的意思是罚球，或者？
Listen, free throw shooting, shooting jump shots.
听着，罚球投篮，跳投投篮。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
There were days when I just couldn’t hit the side of a barn, and that’s going from a person who was really efficient in my early year with Orlando.
有时候我就是无法击中谷仓的一侧，这是我早年在奥兰多效力时非常高效的一个人的表现。
And again, the team dynamic had shifted and changed, too.
再说一次，团队的动力也发生了变化。
But yeah, I wasn’t a great player at the end of that season.
但是，是的，那个赛季结束时我并不是一个出色的球员。
I was a very average, average player at the end of that season.
那个赛季结束时我是一个非常非常非常普通的球员。
And I’m not surprised that they went with younger, better talent.
对于他们选择了更年轻、更优秀的人才，我并不感到惊讶。
I don’t obviate them of their part in why I felt that anguish.
我并没有否认他们在我感到痛苦的过程中所扮演的角色。
But yeah, I probably would’ve dropped me, too.
但是，是的，我可能也会放弃自己。
How do those mental blocks work?
这些心理障碍是如何运作的？
Can you get rid of them by sheer acts of will or you need rituals, you need mentor, or what happens?
你能通过纯粹的意志行为摆脱它们吗？或者你需要仪式，你需要导师，或者会发生什么？
You need therapy, you need people to talk to, or coaching in a kind of mental performance and mental health sense.
你需要治疗，需要与人交谈，或者进行心理表现和心理健康方面的指导。
You need somebody you can talk to about the nature of your feelings.
您需要有人可以倾诉您的感受。
Imagine knowing the exact number that is your annual salary spreading out over seven years and watching it disappear in front of you, despite the fact that you knew it was a principled decision.
想象一下，知道你七年的年薪的确切数字，然后看着它在你面前消失，尽管你知道这是一个原则性的决定。
And that’s where I sat with it, and I sat very much alone with it.
这就是我和它坐在一起的地方，而且我非常孤独地和它坐在一起。
The team did not have therapists and psychologists as they do now.
该团队没有像现在这样的治疗师和心理学家。
And I sat alone with that.
我独自一人坐在那儿。
By the way, I was studying for my doctorate as I played, but it didn’t make any difference.
顺便说一句，我一边玩一边读博士，但这并没有什么区别。
The stuff I was learning theoretically just didn’t seem to help me personally.
我在理论上学到的东西似乎对我个人没有帮助。
So later, you’re on the Utah Jazz.
后来，你加入了犹他爵士队。
What is it you learned from Jerry Sloan?
你从杰里·斯隆身上学到了什么？
That being a dick is not the synonymous with being a leader.
成为一个混蛋并不等于成为一个领导者。
And he was one of those and not the other?
而他是其中之一而不是另一个？
Yeah.
是的。
I know that he’s beloved, right?
我知道他是我所爱的人，对吗？
I know that he’s beloved in Utah, and I am certainly not, but that man called me names that would make your toes curl.
我知道他在犹他州很受人爱戴，而我当然不是，但那个人给我起的名字会让你感到毛骨悚然。
I was called uppity on regular occasions.
我经常被人说傲慢。
I was treated as if my studying for a doctorate was a betrayal of basketball.
我被视为攻读博士学位是对篮球的背叛。
This coming from the man who had not touched a basketball until he was 17, and in six years from not touching a basketball was starting in the NBA.
这句话出自一个 17 岁才接触过篮球的男人之口，六年后，他才开始进入 NBA。
No other player has done that.
没有其他球员这样做过。
And I came to America while my mom was dying of cancer in Britain.
当我妈妈在英国因癌症去世时，我来到了美国。
And then this man is calling me the C-word and questioning my commitment?
然后这个人就称呼我为“C 字”并质疑我的承诺？
About life, not playing basketball, but you feel you learned anything from John Stockton and Karl Malone?
关于生活，不是打篮球，但你觉得你从约翰·斯托克顿和卡尔·马龙身上学到了什么？
Yes, huge amounts.
是的，数额巨大。
Huge amounts, especially from Karl.
数额巨大，尤其是来自卡尔。
He was a surprisingly funny, kind, driven, ambitious athlete.
他是一位令人惊讶的有趣、善良、有动力、雄心勃勃的运动员。
I didn’t know him off the floor, but around the game, that’s who he was.
在场下我不认识他，但在比赛中，他就是这样的人。
We were often punished for our performance if it was not optimal.
如果表现不理想，我们经常会受到惩罚。
And because John and Karl were older in the context of athletes, Jerry would punish us to run endless sprints.
而且由于约翰和卡尔在运动员方面年龄较大，杰里会惩罚我们进行无休止的冲刺。
And these two guys say, “You guys just sit out,” and they would sit out.
这两个人说，“你们就坐在外面，”他们就会坐在外面。
But Karl, I remember looking up during sprints once and seeing John Stockton reading USA Today as we were just slugging up and down the court, and I looked over and Karl had demanded that one of the trainers bring him a bike.
但是卡尔，我记得有一次在冲刺期间抬起头，看到约翰·斯托克顿在读《今日美国》，当时我们只是在球场上来来往往，我看过去，卡尔要求其中一位教练给他拿一辆自行车。
And he wasn’t just kind of keeping warm, he was leathering it on the sidelines.
他不仅仅是在保暖，他还在场边为球队保暖。
And I just thought, “How remarkable, best player on the team, best player perhaps in the history of Utah basketball.
我只是想，“多么了不起，球队中最好的球员，也许是犹他篮球历史上最好的球员。
And there he is at 30 odd years old,” which was old for a basketball player, “At 30-odd years old, leathering it on the side while we slog on the court.”
他现在已经 30 多岁了，”这对于一个篮球运动员来说已经很老了，“30 多岁了，当我们在球场上苦苦挣扎时，他却在一边打球。”
On who actually loves in the game in the NBA
关于谁真正热爱 NBA 比赛
Of NBA players as a whole, what percentage do you think truly love the game?
在整个 NBA 球员中，你认为真正热爱这项运动的比例是多少？
It’s a hard que stion to answer.
这是一个很难回答的问题。
Well, let me give a number first, otherwise, it’s just frustrating.
好吧，让我先给出一个数字，否则，这只是令人沮丧。
40%.
40%。
And a further 30% like the game, and 20% of them are really good at the game and they have other things they want to do with the opportunities that playing well in the NBA grants them.
另外 30% 的人喜欢这项运动，其中 20% 的人真的很擅长这项运动，并且他们利用在 NBA 打得好的机会给他们做其他事情。
But make no mistake, even that 30% that likes the game and the 40% that love the game, they also know that they like what the game can give them and the opportunities that can grow for them, their families and generation, they can make a generational change in their family’s life and opportunities.
但请不要误会，即使是 30% 喜欢游戏的人和 40% 热爱游戏的人，他们也知道他们喜欢游戏能给他们带来的东西以及可以为他们、他们的家庭和一代人成长的机会，他们可以为他们的家庭生活和机会带来一代人的改变。
It’s not just about love.
这不仅仅是爱情。
Love doesn’t make you good at something.
爱并不会让你擅长某件事。
And this is a mistake that people make all the time.
这是人们经常犯的错误。
Loving something doesn’t make you better, it just makes the hard stuff easier.
热爱某件事并不会让你变得更好，它只会让困难的事情变得更容易。
Are there any of the true greats who did not love playing?
有真正的伟人不喜欢打球吗？
Yeah.
是的。
So I know all former players are called legends, whether you are crap like me or brilliant like Hakeem Olajuwon, right?
所以我知道所有前球员都被称为传奇，无论你是像我这样的垃圾还是像哈基姆·奥拉朱旺这样的聪明人，对吧？
And so I’m part of this group of legends and I’m an NBA Ambassador as well.
所以我是这群传奇人物中的一员，也是 NBA 大使。
So I go around all the time with real proper legends.
所以我一直带着真正正确的传说四处走动。
And a number of them I know, and so I’m not going to throw them under the bus, but it’s the way we talk candidly in the van going between events.
其中很多人我都认识，所以我不会把他们抛在一边，但这是我们在活动间隙在车里坦诚交谈的方式。
It’s like, “Yeah, this is a job now and it was a job then, and it was a job that wrecked our knees, destroyed our backs, made it so it’s hard for us to pick up our children.”
就像是，“是的，这是一份现在的工作，过去也是一份工作，这份工作伤了我们的膝盖，毁了我们的背，让我们很难去接孩子。”
And so it’s a job.
所以这是一份工作。
And we were commodities for teams who often, at least back in those days, treated you like commodities.
对于那些经常（至少在当时）的球队来说，我们就是商品，他们把你当作商品对待。
So yeah, there’s a lot of superstars, really, really excellent players.
是的，有很多超级巨星，非常非常优秀的球员。
But that’s the problem, don’t conflate not loving the game.
但这就是问题所在，不要将不喜欢游戏混为一谈。
And also, don’t be fooled.
还有，不要被愚弄了。
In Britain there’s this habit of athletes kissing the badge.
在英国有运动员亲吻徽章的习惯。
In football, they’ve got the badge on their shirt and they go, “Mwah, yeah.” If that fools you into thinking that this person loves the game, if them jumping into the stands and hugging you fools you into thinking that they love the game, more fool you.
在足球界，他们的球衣上有徽章，他们会说，“哇，是的。”如果这让你误以为这个人热爱这项运动，如果他们跳上看台拥抱你让你误以为他们热爱这项运动，那就更能愚弄你了。
Michael Cage, he loved the game.
迈克尔·凯奇，他喜欢这项运动。
Right?
正确的？
Michael Cage, I don’t know if he loved the game, I just know he’s awesome.
迈克尔·凯奇，我不知道他是否喜欢这项运动，我只知道他很棒。
Shoulders is awesome.
肩膀真是太棒了
That man, oh my goodness.
那个男人，我的天哪。
He was what they used to call a veteran’s veteran.
他就是人们常说的退伍军人中的退伍军人。
If you needed sage advice, he had it.
如果你需要明智的建议，他就有。
And not just about sport.
不仅仅是运动。
I remember me and Bobby Sura were rookies at the same time in Cleveland.
我记得我和鲍比·苏拉同时是克利夫兰的新秀。
Bobby Sura was very, very good.
鲍比·苏拉非常非常好。
I was not.
我不是。
And Bobby came in with a new car, and then the next day came in with another new car.
鲍比开着一辆新车进来，第二天又开着另一辆新车进来。
Michael Cage followed us in.
迈克尔·凯奇跟着我们进去。
I was in a green Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo that I’d had for years and years and years, and he followed us into the underground car park.
我开着一辆绿色吉普大切诺基拉雷多，我已经拥有很多年了，他跟着我们进入地下停车场。
This is before practice.
这是练习前的情况。
And he just said, “Is that a new car?” He said, “Give me the keys.” That man took Bobby and the car back to the car sales place and made them take it back.
他只是说：“那是一辆新车吗？”他说：“把钥匙给我。”那个人把鲍比和车带回汽车销售处，让他们把车收回来。
I was like, “That’s what you do as a veteran.” I remember him giving me advice about not buying too many clothes, not too many suits because you have to pay tax and you need to keep hold of some money.
我当时想，“这就是你作为退伍军人所做的事情。”我记得他给我建议不要买太多衣服，不要买太多西装，因为你必须缴税，你需要保留一些钱。
He was a good man.
他是一个好人。
He was a good man.
他是一个好人。
Man.
男人。
What was Vernon Maxwell like, referring to your Houston days?
弗农·麦克斯韦（Vernon Maxwell）是什么样的，指的是你在休斯顿的日子吗？
I didn’t play with Vernon.
我没有和弗农一起玩。
I knew him then or I knew of him then.
我那时就认识他了，或者说我那时就认识他了。
People called him crazy.
人们称他为疯子。
I’m a psychologist.
我是一名心理学家。
I’m not much into people calling people crazy, but people called him crazy.
我不太喜欢人们说别人疯了，但人们却说他疯了。
And I think sometimes people mistake intensity for crazy.
我认为有时人们会将强度误认为是疯狂。
And he was incredibly intense and not always as self-regulated as I might think is appropriate.
他非常热情，并不总是像我认为的那样自我调节。
But you couldn’t fault him as a person who wanted to win.
但你不能责怪他是一个想赢的人。
I mean just must win.
我的意思是必须赢。
On being gay in professional sports
关于职业体育中的同性恋
Why do you think so few NBA players, and indeed from many other professional sports, but so few have come out as gay?
你认为为什么很少有 NBA 球员，甚至来自许多其他职业运动的球员，却很少有人公开自己是同性恋？
If you look at the women’s league, a large number, whether lesbian or bisexual or other things, it’s very common, but not for the men.
如果你看看女子联赛，就会发现有很多人，无论是女同性恋、双性恋还是其他什么，这很常见，但对于男子来说却不然。
So the women’s league, the W is not a good comparison because I don’t believe this myself, but we must be honest and say that many men do not care about women.
所以女子联赛，W并不是一个很好的比较，因为我自己也不相信这一点，但我们必须诚实地说，很多男人并不关心女人。
And I don’t mean men don’t care about women’s sports.
我并不是说男人不关心女人的运动。
I meant what I said.
我说的就是这个意思。
Many men don’t care about women.
很多男人不关心女人。
And so what women do, bisexual, lesbian, whatever else, is immaterial to them.
因此，女性所做的事情，无论是双性恋、女同性恋，还是其他什么，对她们来说都是无关紧要的。
There are men there who couldn’t play in a rec league who think they can beat WNBA players.
有些人虽然无法参加业余联赛，但他们认为自己可以击败 WNBA 球员。
And so they don’t care about it.
所以他们不关心它。
So what they do is inconsequential.
所以他们所做的一切都是无关紧要的。
What men do is important to other men.
男人所做的事情对其他人来说很重要。
And indeed, my understanding of straight men is that most of what straight men do is in order to attract the attention of other straight men.
而确实，我对直男的理解是，直男所做的大部分事情都是为了吸引其他直男的注意。
And so when they look at the league, they’re really interested in making sure that everybody there is appropriately heterosexual.
因此，当他们审视联盟时，他们真的很想确保那里的每个人都是适当的异性恋。
It must be confusing for them now because the league is still very heterosexual, but fashion and other things mean that the league slips in its queerness every once in a while.
现在他们一定很困惑，因为联盟仍然非常异性恋，但时尚和其他事情意味着联盟每隔一段时间就会陷入奇怪的境地。
Why are there not more?
为什么没有更多？
Because the consequences of being queer in American society are still profound.
因为酷儿对美国社会的影响仍然是深远的。
They’re profound in a small town in Texas, and they’re profound if you’re on national television and half the sponsors of your team and certainly the owners are homophobic.
它们在德克萨斯州的一个小镇上影响深远，如果你出现在国家电视台上，并且你的球队有一半的赞助商，当然还有球队老板都是恐同者，那么它们的意义也很深远。
So, there’s really practical reasons not to be out in America in a country that seems to want queer people to go the way of the dodo.
因此，在一个似乎希望酷儿群体重蹈渡渡鸟覆辙的国家，我们确实有实际的理由不去美国。
And how was it for you back then?
那时你感觉怎么样？
Lonely.
孤独。
How did the other players treat you overall, without naming names?
其他玩家总体上是如何对待你的（不点名）？
Really well.
真的很好。
There were a number players who knew because I told them, because they asked.
有很多球员知道，因为我告诉他们，因为他们问。
Because for the most part, with one exception, when people asked me, I told them.
因为在大多数情况下，除了一个例外，当人们问我时，我都会告诉他们。
And so a number of them knew and it was very much a shrug and not a big deal, and they treated me with kindness.
所以他们中的许多人都知道，这只是耸耸肩，没什么大不了的，他们对我很友善。
But I also had experiences of people I cared about deeply as colleagues, as teammates, saying offhand comments that I knew they didn’t mean because I’d talked to them in the locker room, but were part of the ritual of masculinity, which is diminishing women, diminishing gay people, making fun of, I don’t know, that those gay characters off In Living Color and things like that, that were hurtful even as I knew they weren’t aimed at me.
但我也有过这样的经历：作为同事、作为队友，我深切关心的人会随口说出一些评论，我知道他们的意思并不是因为我在更衣室里和他们交谈过，而是男性气概仪式的一部分，这种仪式正在贬低女性，贬低同性恋者，取笑《活色生香》中的那些同性恋角色以及诸如此类的事情，尽管我知道他们不是针对我的，但我不知道这些是很伤人的。
And you think today there are many male NBA players in the closet for similar reasons?
你认为今天有很多 NBA 男性球员因为类似的原因而出柜吗？
I would encourage people to have a more nuanced view of being in the closet.
我鼓励人们对衣柜里的事情有更细致的看法。
So, just because you don’t know doesn’t mean that they’re in the closet.
所以，仅仅因为你不知道并不意味着它们就在壁橱里。
So, I’m in an interesting position now where I’m at once incredibly well known to be gay by certain people, but there’s a whole generation of people who’ve no idea of it, and there’s a whole context with my work who don’t necessarily know either.
所以，我现在处于一个有趣的境地，某些人立刻就知道我是同性恋，但整整一代人对此一无所知，而且我的作品有一个完整的背景，他们也不一定知道。
But just because there’s some people who don’t know doesn’t mean I’m not out.
但仅仅因为有些人不知道并不意味着我就没有出局。
I have a partner, we go out, and so it’s a known thing.
我有一个伴侣，我们出去，所以这是众所周知的事情。
There are players right now who are out in the same way I am.
现在有些球员和我一样出局。
Some of their colleagues, some of their teammates, some of their administrative staff, and some of their friends and some of their family will know that they’re gay, but they simply haven’t announced it on the Jumbotron.
他们的一些同事、一些队友、一些行政人员、一些朋友和一些家人会知道他们是同性恋，但他们只是没有在大屏幕上宣布这一点。
How was it for you in college?
你在大学时过得怎么样？
So you’re in a small college town in Pennsylvania, you’re quite tall, as you’ve mentioned, large frame, prominent, easily recognized, people would go to the basketball games.
所以你在宾夕法尼亚州的一个小大学城，你很高，正如你所提到的，大骨架，显眼，容易被认出，人们会去看篮球比赛。
And do people see you in ways where they start figuring out you might be gay or is it somehow all still invisible?
人们看待你的方式是否会开始认为你可能是同性恋，还是不知何故仍然看不见？
So I had the ultimate advantage, I didn’t realize this early on, but I had the ultimate advantage in that Americans at that time didn’t seem to be able to distinguish between somebody being British and somebody being gay.
所以我有最终的优势，我很早就没有意识到这一点，但我有最终的优势，因为当时的美国人似乎无法区分英国人和同性恋。
And so they looked at me and anything that I did, I remember I wore this T-shirt, which is from a famous advert in the United Kingdom, Wallace & Gromit.
所以他们看着我，无论我做什么，我都记得我穿了这件 T 恤，它来自英国著名的《超级无敌掌门狗》广告。
Sure.
当然。
Right?
正确的？
Yeah, you’ve got the program here now, but Wallace & Gromit.
是的，你现在已经有了这个节目，但是《超级无敌掌门狗》。
And I wore this Gromit T-shirt and it had some ridiculous words on it, but it’s very cutesy and definitely not what athletes wore at the time.
我穿了这件 Gromit T 恤，上面有一些可笑的字样，但它非常可爱，绝对不是当时运动员穿的衣服。
And I heard people like, “Yeah, yeah, well, he’s British.” And that happened all the time for stuff.
我听到人们说，“是啊，是啊，他是英国人。”这种情况一直在发生。
So, I think part of the reason I skated through my college experience, although many people now tell me they knew I was gay, I can’t tell whether they knew or they’re just saying it now, but I think it was that confusion for people because they heard my voice and saw my face and that didn’t make sense anyway.
所以，我认为我在大学经历中滑冰的部分原因是，尽管现在很多人告诉我他们知道我是同性恋，我不知道他们是否知道或者他们现在才这么说，但我认为这对人们来说是一种困惑，因为他们听到了我的声音，看到了我的脸，无论如何这都是没有意义的。
I had people who were like, “All British people are white.” And so it was central Pennsylvania in the ’90s, what can I say?
有人说：“所有英国人都是白人。”那是 90 年代的宾夕法尼亚州中部，我能说什么？
And was any of this different in your non-American, non-NBA teams overseas?
在你们的海外非美国、非 NBA 球队中，这有什么不同吗？
Well, there was plenty of vociferous homophobia, but our lives were less connected in Europe.
嗯，有很多大声疾呼的同性恋恐惧症，但我们在欧洲的生活联系较少。
This is not to say I didn’t really like my teammates, but in the NBA you are just with each other relentlessly.
这并不是说我不喜欢我的队友，但在 NBA，你们就是无情地在一起。
And yet, in Europe there are national team breaks, and there’s only one or two games a week, so there’s just more time to be away from your team and away from each other’s company.
然而，在欧洲，国家队有休息时间，每周只有一两场比赛，所以有更多的时间离开你的球队和彼此的陪伴。
And so, you get to know your team much less well.
因此，你对你的团队的了解就会少得多。
Unless you are overtly invited to someone else’s house, you live separate lives and then you come together twice a week for games and three times a week for practice.
除非你被公开邀请去别人家，否则你们会过着各自的生活，然后每周聚在一起玩两次比赛，每周聚在一起训练三次。
But other than that, you don’t see each other.
但除此之外，你们就看不到对方了。
And the stereotype of African American male communities being especially homophobic, do you think that’s true?
非裔美国男性群体尤其仇视同性恋的刻板印象，你认为这是真的吗？
No, it is not true.
不，这不是真的。
What is true is that the connector there, or when you look at the data, the factor that is most predictive of homophobia is religiosity.
事实是，那里的连接器，或者当你查看数据时，最能预测同性恋恐惧症的因素是宗教信仰。
And because many African American communities are also more highly religious, it is the religious element of that, not the skin color or ethnicity that determines the homophobia.
而且由于许多非裔美国人社区的宗教信仰也更加浓厚，因此决定同性恋恐惧症的是宗教因素，而不是肤色或种族。
It is also true to say that when you look at it in the United Kingdom and you look at Black Caribbean, Black African communities, very often their homophobia comes from imperial colonialism.
也确实如此，当你看看英国、加勒比黑人、非洲黑人社区时，你会发现他们的同性恋恐惧症往往来自帝国殖民主义。
It comes from the fact that the British brought homophobic rules to those lands, and ironically, we now then criticize those places for holding onto the same rules that we imposed on them 300, 400 years ago.
这是因为英国人将仇视同性恋的规则带到了这些土地上，具有讽刺意味的是，我们现在批评这些地方坚持我们 300、400 年前强加给他们的相同规则。
On London
关于伦敦
Now, where in England were you born?
现在，你出生在英国哪里？
Stockport.
斯托克波特。
It’s near Manchester.
它靠近曼彻斯特。
And now you live in or near Exeter.
现在您住在埃克塞特或其附近。
Right?
正确的？
Now I live in London and I travel to Exeter for teaching.
现在我住在伦敦，并前往埃克塞特教书。
It’s only an hour and a half on the train.
坐火车只要一个半小时。
So you’ve seen London through quite a few different decades.
所以你已经看到了伦敦几个不同的几十年。
In your view, just for you personally, when was peak London?
在您看来，就您个人而言，伦敦的高峰期是什么时候？
I think I missed it.
我想我错过了。
Maybe it’s yet to come.
也许它还没有到来。
Well, it could be that too, in which case I’ll probably miss it because I’ll be in my house.
好吧，也可能是这样，在这种情况下我可能会想念它，因为我会在我的房子里。
But it strikes me that peak London was like the ’60s.
但令我印象深刻的是，伦敦的巅峰时期就像是 60 年代。
Prior to the vociferous racism of the ’70s and just after the kind of introduction of mind-altering drugs that expanded people’s horizons a little bit.
在 70 年代激烈的种族主义之前，以及在改变思想的药物的引入之后，人们的视野稍微扩大了一些。
I think there was something about that time in terms of music and art that was really fascinating.
我认为那个时期的音乐和艺术确实令人着迷。
It’s not my era and I don’t know it well, but it just strikes me that that was an era.
这不是我的时代，我也不太了解，但我突然意识到那是一个时代。
Do you have a sense that right now there’s this huge nostalgia boom for the music of Oasis in England, and it has to do in part with the sense that the 1990s, at least in perceptions were a better, happier era than today?
你有没有感觉到，英国现在对 Oasis 音乐掀起了一股巨大的怀旧热潮，这在一定程度上与 20 世纪 90 年代（至少在人们的看法上）比今天更好、更快乐的时代有关？
Yeah.
是的。
Well, that is a fundamental delusion of our time right now.
嗯，这是我们这个时代的一个基本错觉。
Everybody hearkens back to a period of time that they believe is somehow better in numerous, if not all ways.
每个人都会回想起一段他们认为在很多方面（即使不是所有方面）都更好的时期。
There’s really good research on this.
这方面确实有很好的研究。
Every generation has a sense that there was a period of time that was right.
每一代人都有这样的感觉：曾经有一段时期是正确的。
Every generation has a sense that there has been a moral and substantively principled decline in society, and it’s never borne out in reality.
每一代人都会感觉到社会道德和实质原则的衰退，但这种感觉从未在现实中得到证实。
It’s never borne out in reality.
这在现实中从未得到证实。
All of this make America great stuff, all of this make Britain great again, all of this give me my country back, as we are experiencing in Britain at the moment, who’s us that wants our country back and what era do you want?
所有这些让美国变得伟大，所有这些让英国再次伟大，所有这些让我回到了我的国家，就像我们现在在英国所经历的那样，我们是谁想要我们的国家回来，你想要什么时代？
Do you want the era when men died at 36 of black lung?
你想要男人36岁死于黑肺的时代吗？
Do you want the era when men had no internal and emotional life and were loneliest, because certainly they were as lonely as they are now?
你是否想要一个男人没有内在和情感生活、最孤独的时代，因为他们肯定和现在一样孤独？
Do you want the time when women couldn’t vote?
你想要女性无法投票的时代吗？
And if you do, what does that say about you as a human being?
如果你这样做了，这对你作为一个人来说意味着什么？
There’s no time in the past that was good, it wasn’t better.
过去没有什么时候是好的，也没有更好的。
And if you do think it’s better, the only way that’s true is if you’re part of the aristocracy.
如果你确实认为这样更好，那么唯一正确的方法就是你是贵族的一部分。
And I don’t mean if you are rich now, I mean you’re part of the aristocracy.
我并不是说你现在很富有，我的意思是你是贵族的一部分。
Because if you aren’t part of the aristocracy now, you go back a couple of generations and you are working for somebody in the most abhorrent conditions imaginable.
因为如果你现在不是贵族阶层的一员，那么你就会回到几代人之前，在可以想象的最恶劣的条件下为某人工作。
But just subjectively, why does the feeling of failure and also nostalgia seem so strong in the England of right now?
但主观上，为什么现在的英国失败感和怀旧感如此强烈？
Because my sense in the 1990s, people were more forward-looking and it’s like, “Oh, we’re turning over a new leaf.
因为我觉得 20 世纪 90 年代，人们更具前瞻性，就像是，“哦，我们正在翻开新的一页。
This is so exciting.
这太令人兴奋了。
Cool Britannia.” I never hear that now.
酷不列颠尼亚。”我现在再也没有听到过。
It’s all about how things are going to hell.
这一切都是关于事情将如何走向地狱。
Well, we are being told that they’re going to hell.
好吧，我们被告知他们会下地狱。
But what has changed?
但什么改变了呢？
Why is the perception different?
为什么认知不同？
Well, our politicians are grifters who don’t have a decent policy idea to rub together.
好吧，我们的政客都是骗子，他们没有一个像样的政策理念可以磨合。
But what they do know is that they can tell you that the reason for your pain is not your fault.
但他们确实知道的是，他们可以告诉你，你痛苦的原因不是你的错。
The reason for your loss is not your fault.
你的损失的原因不是你的错。
The reason for your condition is not your fault.
你的状况的原因不是你的错。
It’s the fault of that person over there.
都是那边那个人的错。
And that’s what leads to a society that people think is crumbling.
这就是导致人们认为社会崩溃的原因。
The selective use of video.
视频的选择性使用。
Right now, you go online and you can see these examples of London is almost burning, right?
现在，你上网，你可以看到伦敦几乎在燃烧的这些例子，对吗？
But London isn’t burning, crime has been dropping in London for the last decade.
但伦敦并没有燃烧，过去十年伦敦的犯罪率一直在下降。
So the reality of the situation doesn’t match the fervor of people’s rhetoric.
因此，实际情况与人们的言论并不相符。
So no wonder people think the place is falling to pieces because powerful people with vested interests love to tell you that it is.
因此，难怪人们认为这个地方正在分崩离析，因为拥有既得利益的有权势的人喜欢告诉你事实确实如此。
What is most underrated about London for you?
对您来说，伦敦最被低估的是什么？
Food.
食物。
Food.
食物。
It always quite annoys me.
这总是让我很恼火。
I go to America and people are like, “Oh, your food is just stodgy, terrible.” And listen, there is stodgy food that I would consider terrible, right?
我去美国，人们会说，“哦，你们的食物太难吃了，太糟糕了。”听着，有一些我认为很糟糕的难吃的食物，对吧？
I live in just the city, not quite the east end of London, and there’s food here like eels in what they call liquor, which is this green sauce.
我住在这座城市，而不是伦敦东端，这里有像鳗鱼这样的食物，他们称之为酒，也就是这种绿色酱汁。
It’s not my cup of tea, right?
这不是我喜欢的，对吧？
So this food I think is bad, but this place is a product of our colonial past, and as such, there is unbelievably good food from everywhere in the world on your doorstep.
所以我认为这种食物很糟糕，但这个地方是我们殖民历史的产物，因此，你家门口就有来自世界各地的令人难以置信的美食。
I ate vegan Korean food yesterday and it was amazing.
我昨天吃了素食韩国菜，真是太棒了。
And the day before, it was Malay, and the day before it was fish and chips.
前一天是马来语，前一天是炸鱼薯条。
I have that option every day.
我每天都有这样的选择。
Which part of the United States did you find the most interesting?
您觉得美国的哪个部分最有趣？
I lived in Arizona.
我住在亚利桑那州。
I lived in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I loved it there for so many reasons, but found it confusing because it was the first place that I realized that you could hate people that you couldn’t live without.
我住在亚利桑那州的斯科茨代尔，我喜欢那里有很多原因，但我发现它令人困惑，因为这是我第一个意识到你可能会讨厌那些你离不开的人的地方。
It was the first place that I went when I realized that this swathe of the population that might be undocumented or might be first-generation immigrants from Spanish-speaking Latin places could both be derided as the cause of all pain and yet be the backbone of an economy.
当我意识到这群可能是无证人口或可能是来自讲西班牙语的拉丁地区的第一代移民，他们既可能被嘲笑为所有痛苦的根源，但却是经济的支柱时，这是我去的第一个地方。
It was a remarkable experience to watch it happening.
目睹这一切的发生是一次非凡的经历。
I left Arizona because of SB 1070, the state law that said, “If you look brown, they can stop and ask you for your papers.” I left the state, I left the States then.
我离开亚利桑那州是因为 SB 1070，该州法律规定，“如果你看起来是棕色的，他们可以停下来并要求你提供证件。”我离开了这个州，然后我就离开了美国。
What year was that?
那是哪一年？
Oh, God, I don’t remember.
哦，上帝，我不记得了。
I just remember seeing the law passed and thinking, “How can I be in a place where the people who do everything for us can’t get to work without being intimidated by the authorities?”
我只记得看到这项法律通过时，我就想：“我怎么能身处一个为我们做一切事情的人都无法上班的地方，而不会受到当局的恐吓呢？”
On NBA reform
关于 NBA 改革
Do you still follow the NBA and basketball?
你还关注NBA和篮球吗？
I do.
我愿意。
I’m an NBA Ambassador, so I don’t have any choice.
我是 NBA 大使，所以我别无选择。
And again, it’s not because I hate basketball, it’s just I could eat cake and read a book instead, and that’s my preference nowadays.
再说一遍，这并不是因为我讨厌篮球，只是我可以吃蛋糕看书，而这是我现在的偏好。
So I’ve got access, all the former players have got access to the NBA League Pass.
所以我可以使用，所有前球员都可以使用 NBA 联盟通行证。
So, what I tend to do is watch the condensed games to keep me up to date.
因此，我倾向于观看浓缩比赛，以了解最新情况。
I haven’t watched any of the Summer League except for some clips on TikTok.
除了 TikTok 上的一些片段之外，我没有看过任何夏季联赛。
Are there parts of the game or rules or practices that you would change?
您是否会更改游戏或规则或做法的某些部分？
I definitely couldn’t have been a coach because I never had any leanings when it came to that either way.
我绝对不可能成为一名教练，因为无论哪种方式，我都没有任何倾向。
It always felt to me like at the beginning of the year when officials explain the new rule changes, I was like, “I don’t know what problem you’re trying to solve, but okay.” That tended to be my approach.
我总觉得，就像在今年年初，当官员解释新规则的变化时，我的反应是，“我不知道你想解决什么问题，但好吧。”这就是我的做法。
And so even now, I look at the game and I respect it for its evolution.
所以即使是现在，我看着这款游戏，也尊重它的进化。
I know that there are some and they are better players than I who talk about how the games changed and it’s no good anymore because people just shoot threes and whatever else.
我知道有一些人，他们是比我更好的球员，他们谈论比赛如何改变，但现在已经不再好了，因为人们只是投三分球和其他什么。
But I do remember similar critique of the grind days when people would just mash the crap out of each other and the scores would be in the 70s.
但我确实记得对苦差事的类似批评，当时人们只是互相捣碎，分数就在 70 多岁。
So, I do feel like the league simply tries to respond to what people want, and then people change their mind about what they want.
所以，我确实觉得联盟只是试图回应人们想要的东西，然后人们就改变了他们想要的想法。
Some people say in the last few years, there’ve been too many injuries for whatever reason, Tyrese Haliburton, Jayson Tatum, and these are injuries that really have mattered for championship titles.
有人说，最近几年，无论什么原因，伤病太多了，泰瑞斯·哈利伯顿、杰森·塔图姆，这些伤病对于总冠军来说确实很重要。
Is that just random noise or there’s something in the structure of how people are playing that has actually led to more injuries?
这只是随机噪音还是人们打球的结构中存在某些实际上导致更多伤害的因素？
I’ve had two back surgical procedures this year.
我今年做了两次背部手术。
You cannot be 350 pounds and play three or four times a week for an entire season and imagine that it’s anything than dumb luck that you don’t get seriously hurt.
你不可能体重 350 磅，在整个赛季中每周打三到四次比赛，并想象自己没有受到严重伤害只是运气不好。
And the consequences for your body, I can tell you, are profound.
我可以告诉你，这对你的身体的影响是深远的。
I have had two, what are they called that women have when they are pregnant?
我生过两个，请问女性怀孕时有两个叫什么？
It’s the injection that’s anesthetic.
这是麻醉剂的注射。
I forget what it’s called now, but people listening will know if their partners have had children or they’ve had children.
我现在忘记了它叫什么，但是听的人会知道他们的伴侣是否有孩子或者他们已经有孩子了。
And I’ve had two of those this year, which is unbelievable, just so I can walk.
今年我已经经历了两次，这真是令人难以置信，这样我就可以走路了。
So yeah, people get hurt because you play three or four games a week.
所以，是的，人们会因为你每周打三四场比赛而受伤。
And if you care about the players so much, then demand less games a week.
如果你非常关心球员，那么每周要求的比赛就少一些。
Do you ever try to talk young players out of an NBA career?
你是否曾尝试劝说年轻球员放弃 NBA 职业生涯？
No.
不。
I don’t mean the untalented, but those who might plausibly do it?
我指的不是那些没有才华的人，而是那些有可能做到这一点的人？
No, never.
不，从来没有。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
It’s worth it?
值得吗？
Yeah.
是的。
What I try and do is to help them to understand that any role, any job, anywhere where your occupation is your definition will lead you to harm.
我所做的就是帮助他们明白，任何角色、任何工作、任何地方，只要你定义了你的职业，就会给你带来伤害。
And basketball is one of the most intoxicating things for that.
篮球是最令人陶醉的事情之一。
You don’t just play basketball, you’re a basket baller.
你不只是打篮球，你还是一名篮球运动员。
You don’t just do the sport and shoot the shots, you’re a shooter.
你不只是做这项运动和投篮，你还是一名射手。
And my thing is I never was a basketball player.
我的事情是我从来都不是一名篮球运动员。
I just played basketball.
我刚打篮球。
And that distinction helped give me distance enough to know that there was a life when I was 35 years old that would have to be lived for some time hopefully, where basketball wouldn’t be a feature in it, at least not playing.
这种区别让我有足够的距离，让我知道在我 35 岁的时候，有一种生活必须充满希望地度过一段时间，篮球不会成为其中的一个特色，至少不会打球。
And that’s what I did.
这就是我所做的。
That’s what I tell the young people now I talk to, “Go for it, commit to it, make a plan, drive your body, recuperate sensibly, and go for it.
这就是我现在对我交谈的年轻人所说的：“去做吧，致力于它，制定计划，驱动你的身体，明智地恢复，然后去追求它。
But remember, you are not what you do.”
但请记住，你所做的并不是你的行为。”
Let’s say we take a player, maybe they’re drafted number 22 in the second year of college.
假设我们选了一名球员，也许他们是大学二年级第 22 号球员。
They play for a team for three years.
他们为一个球队效力三年。
They show some promise, but it doesn’t take off.
他们表现出了一些希望，但并没有成功。
They get injured, they play a year in Europe, a year in Israel, and then somehow their career’s over.
他们受伤了，在欧洲踢了一年，在以色列踢了一年，然后他们的职业生涯就结束了。
Pretty typical story, right?
很典型的故事，对吧？
People like that, what do they end up doing?
这样的人，最后会做什么呢？
They’re not so wealthy that they don’t have to worry about earning a living.
他们还没有那么富有，不必担心谋生。
So, if you’ve driven yourself to be in the NBA, and you’ve managed the disappointment and you’ve played in Europe as well, because that’s not chopped liver either, then the chances are you’ve got the grind and the planning skills and the kind of stick-to-it-iveness to find yourself another role.
所以，如果你驱使自己进入NBA，并且克服了失望，并且还在欧洲打过球，因为这也不是切碎的肝脏，那么你很可能拥有磨练、计划技巧和坚持下去的能力，为自己找到另一个角色。
It may not be the sexiest role in the world, but not everybody is going to end up on their knees, which I think is the implication lots of people think that athletes like that will.
这可能不是世界上最性感的角色，但并不是每个人都会跪下，我认为这意味着很多人认为像这样的运动员会这样做。
I think it helps if you graduate.
我想如果你毕业了的话会有帮助。
I think it helps if you’ve got a basic bachelor’s in something.
我认为如果你拥有某方面的基本学士学位，这会有所帮助。
But all of these players can find themselves gainfully employed somewhere because they’re willing to work and learn, which is the watchwords of playing professional sport.
但所有这些球员都可以找到有报酬的工作，因为他们愿意工作和学习，这是参加职业运动的口号。
Also, more importantly than that, I should have said this first, more importantly than that, if you played professional sport, you’ve learned to embrace and even love mundanity, the boring, the repetitive.
而且，更重要的是，我应该先说这一点，更重要的是，如果你参加职业运动，你就会学会拥抱甚至热爱平凡、无聊和重复。
And if you can embrace the boring and the repetitive, there is no job you can’t be good at.
如果你能接受无聊和重复的工作，那么就没有你不擅长的工作。
Is there a happiness cliff when you leave?
当你离开时，是否有幸福悬崖？
So there’s all this adulation, women chase after you, maybe you’re on television, you’re flown now in private planes, and then that ends.
所以就有了所有这些奉承，女人追逐你，也许你在电视上，你现在乘坐私人飞机，然后就结束了。
Do people become miserable until they adjust, or it’s like a relief, “Phew, I’m out of there”?
人们在适应之前会变得痛苦吗？还是会松一口气，“唷，我离开那里了”？
So, the things you miss are some of the logistical things, right?
所以，你错过的是一些后勤方面的事情，对吧？
The idea of driving up to the side of a plane, leaving your keys in the car, somebody grabs your bags and put it into the back of the plane and then they drive your car off.
开车到飞机侧面，把钥匙留在车里，有人抓起你的行李，把它放进飞机后部，然后他们把你的车开走。
And then when you land, it’s there again, heated up, heated seats on, that’s great and can’t be replaced.
然后当你着陆时，它又在那里，加热，加热座椅，这很棒，无法更换。
Private planes can’t be replaced.
私人飞机无法替代。
But for the most part, there’s a sense of relief with an opportunity to switch yourself from this one-dimensional being who’s at the behest of the fat man in row 2C.
但在大多数情况下，有一种如释重负的感觉，因为有机会摆脱这个受 2C 排胖子要求的一维存在。
And now, you get an opportunity to reinvent yourself using all the skills that made you brilliant in basketball.
现在，您有机会利用所有让您在篮球方面表现出色的技能来重塑自己。
And I mean in the mechanisms of becoming brilliant.
我的意思是在变得聪明的机制中。
It’s not shooting and passing, but the idea of how you got so good at those things, there’s an opportunity for you reinvent it.
这不是投篮和传球，而是你如何在这些事情上变得如此擅长，你有机会重新发明它。
And more than that, for most players, if you’ve had a decent career, five years or so, there’s an opportunity to just rest.
更重要的是，对于大多数球员来说，如果你有一个不错的职业生涯，五年左右，就有机会休息。
I laughed when I retired.
退休后我笑了。
I remember when I was told that I was traded to New York, I was in a car, I was in Houston.
我记得当我被告知我被交易到纽约时，我正在车里，我在休斯顿。
My family had come to visit me for Christmas and I got a call from Jeff Van Gundy, JVG, and he had said, “I’m sorry, you’ve been traded to New York, and they’ll be in touch in a couple of days and let you know what’s what.”
我的家人来看望我过圣诞节，我接到了杰夫·范甘迪（JVG）的电话，他说：“很抱歉，你已经被交易到纽约，他们会在几天内与你联系，让你知道发生了什么。”
I didn’t say it to him, but I hung up.
我没有跟他说，但我挂了电话。
It was on speakerphone, my family could hear it and they just sat in silence and I was like, “I’m done.” And I remember just laughing, laughing for a car journey, “I’m done.” It was great.
这是通过扬声器，我的家人可以听到，他们只是静静地坐着，我说，“我完成了。”我记得我只是笑了，在开车旅行时笑了，“我完了。”太棒了。
I’m fat now, which is less fun, and my knees hurt, but I’ve got a job that I’m an all-star in instead of being a bench player.
我现在很胖，这不那么有趣，而且我的膝盖受伤了，但我有一份全明星的工作，而不是一个替补球员。
On academia and career switches
关于学术界和职业转换
And your decision to become a professor at Exeter or just to become a professor more generally, what led you to want to do exactly that?
你决定成为埃克塞特大学的一名教授，或者只是成为一名更广泛的教授，是什么让你想要这样做？
Credibility.
信誉。
Credibility.
信誉。
I think there is just a part of it.
我认为这只是其中的一部分。
You mentioned before, the monster kind of analogy.
你之前提到过，怪物的类比。
I do everything I can to help people see that I have something to offer them in this new context, and being a professor is part of that.
我尽我所能帮助人们看到我可以在这个新的背景下为他们提供一些东西，而成为一名教授就是其中的一部分。
Teaching students who know more than you.
教比你懂得更多的学生。
And I know lots of people say that and think it’s bollocks, but it’s not.
我知道很多人都这么说，并认为这是胡说八道，但事实并非如此。
They are closer to the data, graduate students are closer to the science than I am.
他们比我更接近数据，研究生更接近科学。
I often get informed by them newest things that are happening.
我经常从他们那里了解到正在发生的最新事情。
My value entirely to graduate students is, “How do you apply what you now know theoretically to this pragmatic ever-changing world to the practicalities of all of these different businesses?” And that’s my value to them.
我对研究生的价值观完全是：“你如何将你现在所知道的理论知识应用到这个务实、不断变化的世界中，应用到所有这些不同企业的实践中？”这就是我对他们的价值。
So yeah, it’s credibility and it’s joy.
所以，是的，这是可信度，也是快乐。
Do many of your students know who you are?
你的很多学生都知道你是谁吗？
No. It’s brilliant.
不，这太棒了。
It’s really, really fun.
这真的非常非常有趣。
Obviously, they are subjected to my books, so they’re assigned my books to read, they have no choice.
显然，他们受制于我的书，所以他们被分配读我的书，他们别无选择。
And one of them, when they were reading my last book, The Promises of Giants, they were like, “Oh, I didn’t know you played sport.”
其中一个人，当他们读我的上一本书《巨人的承诺》时，他们说，“哦，我不知道你参加体育运动。”
But it was just like that.
但就是这样。
They had no concept of, even though I’m sure they must’ve known what the NBA is, they’re just like, “Oh, I didn’t know you played some sport.” I was like, “Yeah, I played some sport.” And even now, I’ve got clients, commercial clients, no idea, no idea at all.
他们不知道，尽管我确信他们一定知道 NBA 是什么，但他们只是说，“哦，我不知道你参加过一些运动。”我当时想，“是的，我参加了一些运动。”即使现在，我的客户、商业客户也没有任何想法，根本没有任何想法。
Especially in Europe and the UK, just no idea at all that I played.
尤其是在欧洲和英国，我根本不知道自己玩过什么。
I find it gratifying, actually.
事实上，我觉得这很令人欣慰。
I knew you played, in fact, I saw you, I think one time Orlando came to play in Washington D.C., if my memory serves correctly.
我知道你打球，事实上，我见过你，如果我没记错的话，我想有一次奥兰多来华盛顿特区打球。
Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
One of my early memorable games happened against Washington in Washington, D.C. I scored 12 points in the third and fourth quarter, and we beat Washington coming off the bench.
我早期难忘的一场比赛是在华盛顿特区对阵华盛顿的比赛。我在第三节和第四节拿下 12 分，我们击败了替补出场的华盛顿。
And it was one of the first games and I was like, “Oh, shit, I might be quite good at this.” Yeah.
这是最早的游戏之一，我当时想，“哦，该死，我可能很擅长这个。”是的。
That may be why I remember you.
这也许就是我记得你的原因。
Does Dwight Howard deserve to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer?
德怀特·霍华德是否值得成为名人堂的第一轮投票成员？
Oof.
钱币。
Because he has, what, these nine incredible years, but then quite a long career that’s entirely nonexceptional?
因为他有，什么，这九年令人难以置信的岁月，但随后的职业生涯相当长，完全不例外？
Yeah.
是的。
You can’t criticize people for continuing to be paid at the highest level by people who rate you just — but most people won’t respect what he brings off the court, I would imagine.
你不能批评那些对你评价公正的人继续支付最高水平的报酬，但我想大多数人不会尊重他在球场上的表现。
I can’t imagine he’s managed to stick around on these teams being less than his kind of former self and not bringing anything else to the table.
我无法想象他能够在这些球队中留下来，而不是像以前那样，并且没有带来任何其他东西。
So yeah.
所以是的。
What did he bring off the court?
他在场上带来了什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I didn’t know the man, right?
我不认识这个人，对吗？
But it’s just, if he’s coming back, there are cheaper ways to have veteran talent on your team.
但只是，如果他回来了，就有更便宜的方法让你的球队拥有经验丰富的人才。
And there are cheaper ways to have a former All-Star on your team.
还有更便宜的方法可以让前全明星加入你的球队。
There are just cheaper ways of having that slot filled.
只有更便宜的方法来填补这个空缺。
And I can’t imagine, if he was problematic, if he wasn’t delivering anything in terms of wisdom, shared wisdom, shared cultural insights, something else in terms of the performance of the team.
我无法想象，如果他有问题，如果他没有提供任何智慧、共享智慧、共享文化见解以及团队绩效方面的其他东西。
I just can’t imagine they’d keep bringing him back.
我只是无法想象他们会继续把他带回来。
I could be wrong.
我可能是错的。
Maybe they’re dumb and they don’t mind spending millions of pounds on people who don’t bring anything to the table, but I doubt it.
也许他们很愚蠢，他们不介意在那些没有带来任何好处的人身上花费数百万英镑，但我对此表示怀疑。
When you look back on your different careers, do you have any major regrets?
当你回顾自己不同的职业生涯时，有什么重大的遗憾吗？
Oh, God, yeah.
哦，上帝，是的。
Thousands.
数千。
But it’s worked out great for you.
但这对你来说效果很好。
So why have so many regrets?
那么为什么会有这么多的遗憾呢？
I have regrets that do not anchor me, right?
我有遗憾没有让我锚定，对吗？
So if you ask me, and the moment you said it, my mind did this thing where it was like on rails and I flipped all the way back.
所以，如果你问我，当你说出这句话的那一刻，我的思绪就像在轨道上一样，然后我一路翻转回来。
And lots of tiny incidents where it’s like, “Oh, almost like little wince moments come to me.”
还有很多小事件，就像是，“哦，几乎就像我突然想到的小畏缩时刻。”
The difference is I’m not living in any of those spots.
不同的是我不住在这些地方。
I’m not anchored in those places.
我并不固定在那些地方。
I am here now with you, broadly content with where I am.
我现在和你们在一起，对我现在的处境非常满意。
Although I’m an incredibly ambitious person and probably won’t be content until I am a household name for my psychology, but I’ll keep working on that in the background.
尽管我是一个雄心勃勃的人，并且在我的心理学名声家喻户晓之前可能不会满足，但我会在后台继续努力。
How do you think you are different as a psychologist from, say, a median psychologist with broadly a similar demographic background?
您认为作为一名心理学家，您与人口背景大致相似的中等心理学家有什么不同？
Whilst I’m an incredibly robust scientist, I’m interested in the evidence-based process and using the best possible research, I am not interested in appearing clever to people.
虽然我是一位非常强大的科学家，但我对基于证据的过程和使用最好的研究感兴趣，我对在人们面前显得聪明不感兴趣。
I’m interested in people understanding.
我对人们的理解感兴趣。
And I think many psychologists, especially those who make them their names in academia, they want to write in a way that makes what they know seem completely inaccessible, if not magic.
我认为许多心理学家，尤其是那些在学术界出名的心理学家，他们希望以一种让他们所知道的东西看起来完全难以理解的方式，即使不是神奇的。
And I want to write in a way that makes everybody know that what I know is ordinary and easily gainable if you’re willing to engage in the process.
我想以一种让每个人都知道我所知道的东西很普通并且如果你愿意参与这个过程就很容易获得的方式来写作。
That is one of the reasons.
这是原因之一。
One of the other reasons is that I am a practical psychologist.
另一个原因是我是一名实用心理学家。
I’m interested in what psychology can do to make people’s lives better.
我对心理学如何改善人们的生活很感兴趣。
I want to help people thrive.
我想帮助人们茁壮成长。
And so for me, psychology is not theoretical; it’s pragmatic.
所以对我来说，心理学不是理论性的；而是理论性的。这是务实的。
And I do have lots of colleagues who think that way too, but a lot of the very famous ones, it appears that they write for a theoretical audience rather than an audience living in a very real and rather challenging world.
我确实有很多同事也这么认为，但很多非常著名的同事，他们似乎是为理论读者而不是生活在一个非常现实且相当具有挑战性的世界中的读者而写作。
What do you think is an overrated idea in current psychology?
您认为当前心理学中被高估的想法是什么？
An overrated idea in current psychology?
当前心理学中一个被高估的想法？
Ooh, oh, oh, God, I don’t know.
噢，噢，噢，上帝，我不知道。
This is ridiculous that it didn’t come to me early.
这真是可笑，我没有早点想到这一点。
So personality testing, it’s absolute bollocks.
所以性格测试，这绝对是胡说八道。
You might as well throw leaves into a pond and then interpret the reality from the shape they make.
你不妨把树叶扔进池塘里，然后从它们的形状来解释现实。
So even the Five-Factor Model, you want it thrown out?
所以即使是五因素模型，你也想把它扔掉吗？
Oh, my God, nonsense, utter nonsense.
天哪，胡言乱语，完全是胡言乱语。
It is not that these factors don’t exist, it’s just that the constellations of these factors don’t tell you who you are.
并不是这些因素不存在，只是这些因素的星座并不能告诉你你是谁。
Your personality is mutable.
你的个性是多变的。
It changes moment to moment, nevermind under stress versus not.
它每时每刻都在变化，无论有压力还是没有压力。
Anybody listening to this, you are not a bloody primary color.
任何听到这个的人，你都不是该死的原色。
The complexity of the human condition cannot be captured in red.
人类状况的复杂性无法用红色来体现。
It’s not who we are.
这不是我们。
I love taking those Jedi tests, quizzes.
我喜欢参加绝地测试、测验。
What kind of Jedi are you?
你是哪种绝地武士？
And I managed to contrive it so I’m always my favorite Jedi.
我设法做到了这一点，所以我永远是我最喜欢的绝地武士。
And that’s what personality tests are.
这就是性格测试。
Hogan and the rest of them contrive.
霍根和其他人想出办法。
And all they do is gatekeep, because you end up with people who read these things and think, “Oh, extroversion is important.
他们所做的只是把关，因为你最终会遇到读过这些东西的人，然后想：“哦，外向很重要。
If you’re not an extrovert, how will you speak in front of people?
如果你不是一个外向的人，你将如何在人们面前讲话？
How are you speak in front of shareholders?”
你如何在股东面前讲话？”
That’s nonsense.
那是无稽之谈。
I’m an extreme introvert.
我是一个极端内向的人。
I find human beings extraordinarily energy-expensive, but worth it.
我发现人类的能源消耗极其昂贵，但这是值得的。
And personality tests have been holding down the same groups of people for the last 50 years.
过去 50 年来，性格测试一直在对同一群人进行测试。
We need to bin them and throw them out.
我们需要把它们扔进垃圾桶并扔掉。
I think introverts, on average, are better speakers than extroverts.
我认为平均而言，内向的人比外向的人更擅长演讲。
They get less nervous.
他们变得不那么紧张了。
Again, my mind immediately went, citation, please.
我再次想到，请引用。
I don’t know if that’s true, but I’m an introvert, so it appeals to me.
我不知道这是不是真的，但我是一个内向的人，所以它对我很有吸引力。
But I definitely think that if you’re an introvert, speaking is so energy-expensive, that if you’re going to do it, speaking especially in front of an audience or in front of somebody consequential is so energy-expensive, if you’re going to do it, you tend to plan and think it through more carefully, which can mean that your words are more carefully chosen, more carefully tonally placed.
但我绝对认为，如果你是一个内向的人，演讲是非常耗费精力的，如果你要这么做，尤其是在观众面前或在重要人物面前演讲，那么你会倾向于更仔细地计划和思考，这可能意味着你的言语会被更仔细地选择，更仔细地调整语气。
Whereas if you’re an extrovert, you just like to talk, and so you might just say anything.
而如果你是一个外向的人，你只是喜欢说话，所以你可能会说什么。
I don’t know, I haven’t seen the evidence behind that, but it appeals to me.
我不知道，我还没有看到背后的证据，但它对我很有吸引力。
And in your new book, It’s Not Magic: The Ordinary Skills of Exceptional Leaders, if you were to distinguish what makes your approach to leadership different or special, what would you say?
在你的新书《这不是魔法：杰出领导者的普通技能》中，如果你要区分是什么让你的领导方法与众不同或特别，你会怎么说？
It’s not innate and it’s not bestowed.
它不是与生俱来的，也不是被赋予的。
Leadership is earned.
领导力是赢得的。
It’s not something that you need to understand what combination of personalities or cognitive styles you have.
你不需要了解自己的性格或认知风格的组合。
It’s a set of skills that you need to choose to develop.
这是您需要选择培养的一组技能。
Either the people around you, the people that you might lead, whether it’s that two people in your family or that 10 people in your community or in your team, or whether that be a sports team or a business, it’s just are these people consequential enough for you to want to have the optimal possible impact on them or aren’t they?
无论是你周围的人，还是你可能领导的人，无论是你家里的两个人，还是你社区或团队中的 10 个人，或者无论是运动队还是企业，这些人是否足够重要，让你想要对他们产生尽可能最佳的影响？
And if they are, then there are some behaviors that you can choose about your presence and about your eloquence, that you can choose these things to make you a better leader.
如果是的话，那么你可以选择一些关于你的风度和口才的行为，你可以选择这些行为来让你成为一个更好的领导者。
And the thing I love about my approach is simply that there’s no gatekeeping here.
我喜欢我的方法的一点很简单，就是这里没有把关。
There’s not a certain school or a certain accent or a certain language.
没有特定的学校、特定的口音或特定的语言。
You can choose to be an excellent leader of people, to be the kind of person people wish to follow if you’re willing to put in the work and earn some new skills.
如果您愿意投入工作并获得一些新技能，您可以选择成为优秀的领导者，成为人们希望追随的人。
And none of them are complex.
而且它们都不复杂。
They’re just energy-expensive.
它们只是能源昂贵。
Very last question.
最后一个问题。
What will you do next?
接下来你会做什么？
That’s an excellent question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I used to say that I wanted to be in the House of Lords.
我曾经说过我想进入上议院。
I think politics is beneath me now.
我认为政治现在在我之下。
I think I want to find a way to have a broader impact than I have, a broader, positive impact than I currently have.
我想我想找到一种方法来产生比我现在更广泛、更积极的影响。
I’m not quite sure how that will happen.
我不太确定那会如何发生。
I’ve been using social media and that’s only so effective.
我一直在使用社交媒体，而且效果非常好。
So that’s my goal.
这就是我的目标。
If what I’m saying is not nonsense and people engage with it, and they like what I write and read, I must find a way to reach more people.
如果我所说的不是废话并且人们参与其中，并且他们喜欢我写和读的内容，那么我必须找到一种方法来影响更多人。
John Amaechi, thank you very much.
约翰·阿玛吉，非常感谢你。
It’s a pleasure.
我的荣幸。
Thank you.
谢谢。