Joe Boyd on the Birth of Rock, World Music, and Being There for Everything (Ep. 232)
Thank you to an anonymous listener for sponsoring this transcript.
感谢一位匿名听众赞助这份文字记录。
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today, I’m speaking with Joe Boyd.
今天，我正在与乔·博伊德交谈。
This is immediately prompted by the publication of Joe’s wonderful new book, And the Roots of Rhythm Remain, which is, I would say, the most substantive, complete, thorough, and well-informed book on world music ever written.
乔的精彩新书《节奏的根源仍然存在》的出版立即推动了这一点，我想说，这是有史以来关于世界音乐的最实质性、最完整、最彻底、最翔实的书。
I enjoyed every page and every moment.
我喜欢每一页和每一刻。
Joe, more generally, is very well known as a music producer.
更广泛地说，乔是一位众所周知的音乐制作人。
He has worked with all kinds of groups and artists, including Pink Floyd, Fairport Convention, Sandy Denny, Richard Thompson, R.E.M.’s Fables of the Reconstruction album, Vashti Bunyan, Maria Muldaur, James Booker, 10,000 Maniacs, Toots and the Maytals.
他曾与各种团体和艺术家合作过，包括 Pink Floyd、Fairport Convention、Sandy Denny、Richard Thompson、R.E.M.’s Fables of the Reconstruction 专辑、Vashti Bunyan、Maria Muldaur、James Booker、10,000 Maniacs、Toots and the Maytals。
He ran the UFO Club in London, which was significant in the development of the British avant-garde, and he had a role in the famous “Dueling Banjos” scene in Deliverance.
他在伦敦经营 UFO 俱乐部，这对英国前卫艺术的发展具有重要意义，他还在《拯救》中著名的“决斗班卓琴”场景中扮演了一个角色。
Joe, welcome.
乔，欢迎。
Good to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
World music — is Zulu music, as Paul Simon borrowed from in the 1980s — is that, in fact, reactionary in the South African context?
世界音乐 ——正如 Paul Simon 在 20 世纪 80 年代借用的那样，是祖鲁音乐 ——事实上，这在南非背景下是反动的吗？
I think a lot of people in South Africa considered .
我想很多南非人都考虑过。
.
。
.
。
There are lots of different opinions about all kinds of music, but certainly, the youth in the ANC, who were supporting Nelson Mandela, I think, would probably have viewed the music that Paul Simon, the musicians that Paul Simon collaborated with, and the style in which Graceland was performed as both old fashioned and tribal.
关于各种音乐有很多不同的观点，但我认为，非国大中支持纳尔逊·曼德拉的年轻人可能会认为保罗·西蒙的音乐、保罗·西蒙合作的音乐家以及格雷斯兰的表演风格既是老式的又是部落的。
Both were, from their point of view, contrary to what they liked and what represented their struggle.
从他们的角度来看，两者都违背了他们所喜欢的和代表他们斗争的东西。
A lot of the controversy about Graceland was, “Oh, did Paul Simon break the boycott?” In fact, in South Africa, the controversy about it was much different.
关于格雷斯兰的很多争议都是这样的：“哦，保罗·西蒙打破了抵制吗？”事实上，在南非，有关它的争议有很大不同。
People in the Northern Hemisphere felt that by buying Ladysmith Black Mambazo records and Mahlathini and the Mahotella Queens records that they were somehow supporting Nelson Mandela.
北半球的人们认为，通过购买 Ladysmith Black Mambazo 唱片和 Mahlathini 和 Mahotella Queens 唱片，他们在某种程度上支持了纳尔逊·曼德拉 (Nelson Mandela)。
Whereas in South Africa, Nelson Mandela supporters felt that music represented the Zulus who were the enemy of the ANC, or at least the official Zulu hierarchy was the enemy of the ANC.
而在南非，纳尔逊·曼德拉的支持者认为音乐代表了祖鲁人，他们是非国大的敌人，或者至少祖鲁官方等级制度是非国大的敌人。
The Zulus have long had more capitalist traditions?
祖鲁人早就有更多的资本主义传统？
Or what exactly were the differences then?
或者说当时的差异到底是什么？
I don’t know about capitalist traditions.
我不了解资本主义传统。
They had more cattle.
他们有更多的牛。
I thought you were saying catalyst traditions.
我以为你说的是催化剂传统。
Well, both.
嗯，两者都有。
The difference is that the Zulus have a history of being very belligerent, being warlike, having an empire, having great kings like Shaka.
不同之处在于，祖鲁人有着非常好战、好战的历史，拥有一个帝国，拥有像沙卡这样伟大的国王。
They defeated the British army at Isandlwana and massacred a whole battalion of British troops.
他们在伊桑德瓦纳击败了英军，并屠杀了整个营的英军。
They responded to the white invasion of their land quite differently than the Xhosa, which is Nelson Mandela’s ethnic background, who took to urban life pretty well and participated and liked democracy and liked the politics.
他们对白人入侵他们土地的反应与科萨人截然不同，科萨人是纳尔逊·曼德拉的种族背景，科萨人很好地适应了城市生活，参与并喜欢民主和政治。
The struggle was something that they wanted to spread to all the different groups in South Africa.
他们希望将这场斗争传播到南非所有不同的群体。
Whereas the Zulus liked being apart.
而祖鲁人则喜欢独处。
They liked being separate; they liked holding onto their traditions.
他们喜欢分开；他们喜欢坚持自己的传统。
And the government played on that and would give them weapons and give them special privileges and try and get the Zulus to support apartheid in return for having a privileged role within this imagined future of South Africa, which, of course, didn’t happen.
政府利用这一点，给他们武器，给予他们特权，并试图让祖鲁人支持种族隔离，以换取在南非这个想象中的未来中发挥特权作用，当然，这没有发生。
The Zulus have reluctantly gone along with the Rainbow Nation idea, but it hasn’t been easy.
祖鲁人不情愿地接受了彩虹国的想法，但这并不容易。
I know I can still go hear Ladysmith Black Mambazo in concert, but are those Zulu musical traditions still alive and vital today, or are they just ossified?
我知道我仍然可以去听莱迪史密斯·布莱克·曼巴佐 (Ladysmith Black Mambazo) 的音乐会，但那些祖鲁音乐传统今天仍然存在且充满活力，还是只是僵化了？
I think, like many places, you have the invasion of technology.
我认为，就像许多地方一样，技术正在入侵。
You have the invasion of the drum machine, you have the invasion of people being able to listen to anything from anywhere in the world.
鼓机的入侵，人们能够从世界任何地方聆听任何内容的入侵。
So, traditions all around the world have taken a hit, but they still exist.
因此，世界各地的传统都受到了打击，但它们仍然存在。
I’ve been to South Africa a few times, but not for many, many years.
我去过南非几次，但已经很多很多年了。
I can’t claim to be completely up-to-date on what’s going on today in KwaZulu-Natal culturally, but I’ve seen footage of classes in schools in Durban who sing fantastic Zulu harmonies every morning before they start classes.
我不能声称自己完全了解夸祖鲁-纳塔尔省文化上正在发生的最新情况，但我看过德班学校的课堂录像，他们每天早上在上课前都会唱美妙的祖鲁和声。
I think the traditions seem to be alive, but I wouldn’t claim perfect knowledge of that.
我认为这些传统似乎仍然存在，但我不会声称对此有完美的了解。
Now, some of my friends will argue that what is called world music — it’s a bad name, but you know what I mean — that maybe it peaked between the 1960s and 1990s.
现在，我的一些朋友会争辩说，所谓的世界音乐 ——这是一个坏名字，但你知道我的意思 —— 也许它在 20 世纪 60 年代和 1990 年代之间达到了顶峰。
That the initial impetus of commercialization gave a lot of people market access or the ability to buy a guitar, but at some point, it becomes over-commercialized, and we’ve exhausted or mined out the sources of creativity in other countries, and that today is less interesting.
商业化的最初推动力让很多人获得了市场准入或购买吉他的能力，但在某种程度上，它变得过度商业化，我们已经耗尽或挖掘了其他国家的创造力来源，而今天这已经不那么有趣了。
Do you agree or disagree?
你同意还是不同意？
I would try and change the question a little bit.
我会尝试稍微改变一下问题。
I think the time that you’re talking about — 1960s through the ’90s — was definitely a time when .
我认为你所说的那个时代——20世纪60年代到90年代绝对是一个时代。
.
。
.
。
You could go back to the 1930s, a time when urbanization happened in a lot of previously un-urban countries.
你可以回到 20 世纪 30 年代，当时许多以前非城市国家都发生了城市化。
When urbanization happens anywhere in the world — from the Mississippi Delta going to Chicago, from the Cuban cane fields going to Havana, from the countryside coming into Leopoldville, which became Kinshasa — the same thing happens.
当世界任何地方发生城市化时——“从密西西比三角洲到芝加哥，从古巴甘蔗田到哈瓦那，从乡村到利奥波德维尔，后来变成了金沙萨”——同样的事情也会发生。
It’s no different.
没什么不同。
This is not the so-called developing world as it was once called.
这不是以前所说的所谓的发展中国家。
It’s no different from America or England or anywhere else.
这与美国、英国或其他地方没有什么不同。
The same process happens.
同样的过程也会发生。
Music became modernized when it became urbanized.
当音乐变得城市化时，它也变得现代化。
I would say that the so-called world music movement that began in the ’80s, which was, in my view, a response to a vacuum or a decline in the kind of music that many music fans, music buffs, collectors had once loved about blues, about jazz, about folk music, and about rock, was no longer quite so available within the Western culture.
我想说，始于八十年代的所谓世界音乐运动，在我看来，是对许多音乐迷、音乐爱好者、收藏家曾经喜爱的蓝调、爵士乐、民间音乐和摇滚音乐类型的真空或衰落的回应，但在西方文化中已不再那么容易获得。
People began looking and realizing that a lot of those same qualities were available in African music, Latin music, Eastern European music, and people began discovering what great music there was out there.
人们开始寻找并意识到非洲音乐、拉丁音乐、东欧音乐中也存在许多相同的品质，人们开始发现那里有什么伟大的音乐。
The term world music — I don’t think it’s such a bad term.
世界音乐这个词 —— 我不认为这是一个糟糕的词。
It was a term applied not to the music, but to an audience in Western, Northern Europe and North America that was looking for the same customer.
这个术语不适用于音乐，而是适用于西欧、北欧和北美正在寻找同一客户的观众。
A customer going into a record store looking for a Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan record was a prime candidate to buy a Susana Baca record, a Peruvian singer on David Burns label, or a Flamenco record, or a Scottish piping record.
走进唱片店寻找 Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan 唱片的顾客很可能会购买 Susana Baca 唱片、David Burns 厂牌的秘鲁歌手唱片、弗拉门戈唱片或苏格兰管乐唱片。
These customers were more interested in what was going on outside the borders of Anglo-American culture than what was inside those borders.
这些顾客对英美文化边界之外发生的事情比这些边界内部发生的事情更感兴趣。
Independent record labels just said, “Let’s put those records all together in a corner of the record store so people can find that stuff.” It turned into something that then had people.
独立唱片公司只是说：“让我们把这些唱片放在唱片店的一个角落里，这样人们就可以找到这些东西。”它变成了有人的东西。
.
。
.
。
It was such a startlingly successful marketing tactic that it became a thing.
这是一种非常成功的营销策略，以至于成为一种流行趋势。
There were concert series.
有音乐会系列。
There were review sections in newspapers.
报纸上有评论版块。
There were all kinds of things.
各种各样的事情都有。
Like anything that gets popular, you’re going to have pushback from people who don’t like it.
就像任何流行的东西一样，你会受到不喜欢它的人的抵制。
But I would say to people who complain about the term, are you complaining about the term but you like the idea of a wealthy Western audience buying tickets and giving, essentially, money to the great artists from cultures from far away?
但我想对那些抱怨这个词的人说，你是在抱怨这个词，但你喜欢富裕的西方观众购买门票并实质上向来自遥远文化的伟大艺术家捐钱的想法吗？
Or do you dislike that whole idea?
或者你不喜欢整个想法？
Or do you just dislike the term world music?
或者你只是不喜欢世界音乐这个词？
Which do you dislike?
你不喜欢哪个？
That would be my question to anyone complaining about it.
这将是我向任何抱怨此事的人提出的问题。
Then we can have two different discussions about following that choice.
然后我们可以就遵循该选择进行两种不同的讨论。
Now, you’ve heard more world music than just about anyone.
现在，您听过的世界音乐比任何人都多。
Do you at current margins feel that you’re no longer very surprised?
在目前的利润率下，您是否觉得自己不再感到非常惊讶？
Or do you come across fresh styles all the time?
或者你总是遇到新鲜的款式？
It obviously gets more and more difficult to be surprised, but I do get surprised.
显然，要感到惊讶变得越来越困难，但我确实感到惊讶。
I hear wonderful things that I’ve never heard before.
我听到了以前从未听过的美妙事物。
Toward the end of the book, I mentioned there’s a record label in Atlanta, Georgia, called Dust-to-Digital.
在书的最后，我提到佐治亚州亚特兰大有一家唱片公司，名为“Dust-to-Digital”。
They do reissues of archival recordings from all around the world, including America.
他们重新发行来自世界各地（包括美国）的档案录音。
They have an Instagram feed that they put out once or twice a month.
他们有一个 Instagram feed，每月发布一两次。
I’m not sure how often.
我不确定多久一次。
It’s just fabulous.
这真是太棒了。
It’s just sensational.
这太耸人听闻了。
People send them clips of music — real people playing real music from every corner of the world.
人们向他们发送音乐片段 ——来自世界各个角落的真人演奏真实的音乐。
I hear astonishing things on that feed every month.
我每个月都会在那个提要中听到令人惊讶的事情。
It’s just a delight.
这真是一种享受。
Also on Twitter, as well.
也在推特上。
Yes.
是的。
Anyway, I highly recommend it.
不管怎样，我强烈推荐它。
What do you and your wife find so interesting about living in southern Albania?
您和您的妻子对阿尔巴尼亚南部的生活有何兴趣？
We don’t live in southern Albania.
我们不住在阿尔巴尼亚南部。
Let’s not exaggerate our exotic living arrangements.
我们不要夸大我们异国情调的生活安排。
But part-time, right?
但兼职，对吧？
My wife does work on environmental projects, mostly in the Balkans, so we have spent a lot of time in Albania — not in southern Albania, but in Tirana.
我的妻子从事环境项目，主要是在巴尔干地区，所以我们在阿尔巴尼亚度过了很多时间——不是在阿尔巴尼亚南部，而是在地拉那。
We have a little flat there.
我们在那里有一个小公寓。
It’s not very expensive.
不是很贵。
We get to keep it.
我们得保留它。
We go to Albania now and then.
我们偶尔去阿尔巴尼亚。
She goes more often than I do.
她去的次数比我多。
For a time, when one of her projects was based there, we spent a lot of time there.
有一段时间，当她的一个项目以那里为基地时，我们在那里度过了很多时间。
That’s how we met actually.
我们实际上就是这样认识的。
I’ve always been fascinated by Albanian music.
我一直对阿尔巴尼亚音乐着迷。
I’d never been there, and I went to some Lucy Durán, who’s a character in the book, who’s the woman who promoted the kora and produced those great Toumani Diabaté records.
我从来没有去过那里，我去找了露西·杜兰（Lucy Durán），她是书中的一个角色，是推广科拉琴并制作了那些伟大的图马尼迪亚巴特唱片的女人。
She told me she was going to Albania, to a party on the beach with traditional Albanian music.
她告诉我她要去阿尔巴尼亚，参加在海滩上举行的传统阿尔巴尼亚音乐派对。
I said, “Can I come?” And that’s how we met.
我说：“我可以来吗？”我们就是这样认识的。
We ended up producing a record of a great assemblage of traditional musicians from southern Albania.
我们最终制作了一张由来自阿尔巴尼亚南部的传统音乐家组成的伟大组合的唱片。
It’s a great place.
这是一个很棒的地方。
Albania is a lovely country.
阿尔巴尼亚是一个可爱的国家。
Tirana is a very livable city.
地拉那是一个非常宜居的城市。
It’s been a wonderful experience to spend a lot of time there and get to know the culture, get to know people.
在那里度过了很多时间，了解了这里的文化，认识了人们，这是一次美妙的经历。
We go back every five years, for sure.
当然，我们每五年回去一次。
We go for the festival in Gjirokastër.
我们去吉诺卡斯特参加节日。
They have this huge festival of musicians from all over Albania playing traditional styles — no electric guitars, just the old-fashioned way.
他们举办了这个盛大的音乐节，来自阿尔巴尼亚各地的音乐家演奏传统风格——没有电吉他，只有老式的方式。
If you were trying to explain how, say, southern Albanian choral music is different from Bulgarian polyphony, what’s the distinction?
例如，如果您试图解释阿尔巴尼亚南部合唱音乐与保加利亚复调音乐有何不同，那么区别是什么？
Albania is not Slavic.
阿尔巴尼亚不是斯拉夫人。
It is completely itself.
它完全是它自己。
The roots of the language go right back to the origins of Indo-European language family.
该语言的根源可以追溯到印欧语系的起源。
It has no connection to Slavic culture.
它与斯拉夫文化没有任何联系。
Some, obviously.
显然，有些。
There’s been borrowings and influence across the border, but the harmonic sense, the distinguished Bulgarian harmonies, that close second, the impossibly close dissonances that you hear in Le Mystere des Voix Bulgares and in traditional singing in villages — the Albanian tradition is completely different.
跨国界有借鉴和影响，但是和声的感觉，杰出的保加利亚和声，紧随其后的第二声，你在《保加利亚之声的神秘》和乡村传统歌唱中听到的难以置信的不和谐音——阿尔巴尼亚的传统是完全不同的。
It’s equally wonderful, but it’s more polyphonic.
它同样精彩，但更加复调。
It’s not so much about harmony as about cycles of a lead voice, what they call a cutter, someone who enters after echoing the line of the lead voices.
与其说是和谐，不如说是主唱的循环，他们称之为切入者，是在回应主唱的台词后进入的人。
It’s very complex, not just harmonically, but in terms of the way that the music unfolds.
它非常复杂，不仅是和声，而且是音乐展开的方式。
On Toots and the Maytals
关于图茨和梅塔尔人
What was the greatest achievement of Toots and the Maytals in your opinion?
您认为图茨和梅塔尔家族最伟大的成就是什么？
Toots and the Maytals is really Toots.
图茨和梅塔尔一家确实是图茨。
They varied over time.
它们随着时间的推移而变化。
Yes.
是的。
Toots and the Maytals is a vocal trio originally, Toots with two guys who sang harmonies.
Toots and the Maytals 最初是一个声乐三重奏，Toots 和两个唱和声的人。
Over the years, I think Toots began doing most of the harmonies himself in the studio, so it’s really about Toots Hibbert.
多年来，我认为图茨开始在录音室里自己制作大部分和声，所以这实际上是关于图茨·希伯特的。
As I say in the book, to me, Toots is as great a songwriter as Bob Marley.
正如我在书中所说，对我来说，图茨和鲍勃·马利一样是一位伟大的作曲家。
It’s fascinating, the difference between them.
他们之间的区别很有趣。
Marley has this wonderful sense of sweeping statements.
马利具有这种笼统的陈述的奇妙感觉。
If you listen, so many of Marley’s songs are didactic.
如果你听的话，马利的很多歌曲都是说教的。
“Do this, get up, stand up, lively up yourself.” You take orders from Marley in the most wonderful way.
“这样做，站起来，站起来，让自己活跃起来。”你以最美妙的方式接受马利的命令。
Toots finds these little vignettes of daily life in Jamaica and makes a song out of them.
图茨发现了牙买加日常生活中的这些小插曲，并用它们创作了一首歌。
I think he’s a poet.
我认为他是一位诗人。
He’s a Balzac.
他是巴尔扎克。
He’s a genius of the romance — as they used to say about Osip Mandelstam, the Russian poet — the romance of the precise.
他是浪漫的天才——正如人们常说的俄罗斯诗人奥西普·曼德尔施塔姆——精确的浪漫。
He goes into nuanced details of life, like “54–46 That’s My Number.” That was his number in prison.
他深入探讨了生活中的微妙细节，例如“54-46 这是我的数字”。这是他在监狱里的电话号码。
He built a whole song about his number on the back of his prison uniform.
他在囚服背面创作了一整首关于他的号码的歌曲。
His songs are known around the world.
他的歌曲闻名于世。
Everybody recognizes “Pressure Drop” and “54–46” and “Monkey Man.”
每个人都认识“Pressure Drop”、“54-46”和“Monkey Man”。
Sweet and Dandy is great.
甜甜和丹迪很棒。
Sweet and Dandy.
又甜又花花公子。
So many, so many.
这么多，这么多。
What was Toots like?
图茨是什么样的人？
Toots, I was so thrilled to be working .
嘟嘟，我很高兴能够工作。
.
。
.
。
I was called in to finish off Reggae Got Soul.
我被叫去完成《Reggae Got Soul》。
The tracks had been done in Kingston, and his producer, Warwick Lyn, wonderful guy, brought the tapes to London.
这些曲目是在金斯敦制作的，他的制作人沃里克·林恩（Warwick Lyn）是一位出色的人，他将磁带带到了伦敦。
I worked with Warwick and Toots on finishing them off, adding some overdubs and harmonies.
我与沃里克和图茨一起完成了它们，添加了一些配音和和声。
Toots was great.
图茨很棒。
He was very affable.
他非常和蔼可亲。
He had ideas.
他有想法。
He was insistent on certain things.
他对某些事情很坚持。
Toots, God bless him, smoked a lot of dope, and he was behind a cloud a lot of the time.
图茨，上帝保佑他，吸了很多毒品，而且很多时候他都躲在云层后面。
Warwick Lyn was the messenger between us.
沃里克·林恩是我们之间的使者。
I had a number of conversations with Toots, but if we had to make a decision about who was going to play on this track or how we’re going to deal with this question, Warwick would talk patois with Toots and then talk English to me.
我和图茨进行了多次交谈，但如果我们必须决定谁将在这首曲目上演奏，或者我们将如何处理这个问题，沃里克会和图茨说方言，然后和我说英语。
Because Toots wouldn’t be able to speak with you?
因为图茨无法和你说话？
Or he was needed as a diplomat?
或者他需要担任外交官？
No, they had a way of communicating, and very often when Toots would say something, I wouldn’t understand a word of what he said.
不，他们有自己的沟通方式，而且很多时候，当图茨说话时，我一句也听不懂。
He had a very thick patois when he spoke.
他说话时土话很浓。
Listen, it’s a long time ago.
听着，那是很久以前的事了。
I’m trying to remember.
我正在努力回忆。
I had a lot of exchanges with him, but most of the time, my dialogue was with Warwick Lyn, who was an extraordinary guy, who, as I say in the book, had a striking resemblance to Jeff Chandler in Broken Arrow as Cochise.
我与他进行了很多交流，但大多数时候，我的对话是与沃里克·林恩（Warwick Lyn）进行的，他是一个非凡的人，正如我在书中所说，他与《断箭》中饰演科奇斯的杰夫·钱德勒（Jeff Chandler）有着惊人的相似之处。
He had long black hair and gold teeth and half Chinese, half Afro-Jamaican.
他有一头长长的黑发和金牙，一半是中国人，一半是非洲裔牙买加人。
On Deliverance and Clockwork Orange
论《拯救》和《发条橙》
Now, for me, the “Dueling Banjos” scene in the movie Deliverance is one of the great moments in Hollywood cinema.
现在，对我来说，电影《拯救》中的“班卓琴决斗”场景是好莱坞电影中最伟大的时刻之一。
What was your role in that?
你在其中扮演了什么角色？
John Boorman was the director.
约翰·保尔曼担任导演。
At that time, I had the title, director of music services for Warner Brothers films.
当时我的头衔是华纳兄弟电影音乐服务总监。
I had a big office in the music bungalow on the lot, and directors and producers would come to see me and say what they wanted.
我在音乐平房里有一个大办公室，导演和制片人会来看我并说出他们的想法。
“Get me John Williams.” And I’d pick up the phone and call the agent of John Williams.
“给我找约翰·威廉姆斯。”我会拿起电话给约翰·威廉姆斯的经纪人打电话。
In this case, John Boorman came to see me, and he had a cassette that he had recorded off the car radio while driving around Georgia looking for locations.
在这种情况下，约翰·布尔曼来见我，他拿着一盘磁带，是他开车在佐治亚州周围寻找地点时用汽车收音机录制的。
The cassette was of an instrumental bluegrass track called “Dueling Banjos.” He said, “I want to use this in a scene, so we have to prerecord it so that the actors can mime, but I also want to use the theme, the melody, the ideas in that as the basis of the score for the whole movie.
录音带是一首名为“Dueling Banjos”的器乐蓝草曲目。他说：“我想在一个场景中使用这个，所以我们必须预先录制它，以便演员可以模仿，但我也想用其中的主题、旋律、想法作为整个电影配乐的基础。
So, I need a banjo player who can play it straight, and play it slow, and play it in minor key and in major key, and play it upside down, and sideways, like that.”
所以，我需要一个能够直接弹奏、慢速弹奏、以小调和大调弹奏、上下颠倒、侧向弹奏的班卓琴演奏者。”
I said, “I know just the guy, Bill Keith.” I don’t know if you know Bill Keith, but he was one of the greats.
我说：“我只认识这个人，比尔·基思。”我不知道你是否认识比尔·基思，但他是最伟大的人之一。
He played with Bill Monroe for many years, but he was an MIT graduate and a city guy who mastered the bluegrass banjo.
他和比尔·门罗一起演奏了很多年，但他是麻省理工学院的毕业生，也是一个精通蓝草班卓琴的城市人。
He could play Bach on the banjo, and he could do anything.
他可以用班卓琴演奏巴赫，他可以做任何事情。
I tracked down Bill Keith, and he was in Ireland.
我找到了比尔·基思，他在爱尔兰。
He had decided he had to learn how to play pedal steel guitar, and he was touring with Kathie Dalton.
他决定必须学习如何演奏踏板钢吉他，并且他正在与凯西·道尔顿一起巡演。
I said, “When are you going to be back?
我说：“你什么时候回来？
I need you in Atlanta to do this session.” He said, “Nah, I met this girl.
我需要你在亚特兰大参加这次会议。”他说：“不，我遇见了这个女孩。
I think I’m going to stay in Ireland for a while.
我想我会在爱尔兰呆一段时间。
Get Weissberg to do it.” I said, “Okay.” I knew Eric, and I thought he was pretty good.
让韦斯伯格去做吧。”我说：“好吧。”我认识埃里克，我认为他非常好。
Not quite as good as Bill, but pretty good.
虽然不如比尔那么好，但也不错了。
I called Weissberg, and he came to Atlanta with his regular guitar player, and we did as Boorman asked.
我给韦斯伯格打了电话，他带着他的常客吉他手来到了亚特兰大，我们按照布尔曼的要求做了。
Boorman came to the session for a bit.
布尔曼参加了会议一会儿。
We played it upside down, backwards, to speed and everything.
我们把它颠倒、倒着、加快速度等等。
Then we took it up to the location and did the playback with the strange-looking young boy and the city guy with the guitar and that whole scene.
然后我们把它带到现场并播放了那个长相奇怪的小男孩和拿着吉他的城里人以及整个场景。
I was there when they shot it, but the funny part of it was that when the film was finished, one of my jobs was to go across the street to the record company and promote the film music to the record company to get them excited about it.
他们拍摄时我就在场，但有趣的是，当电影完成后，我的工作之一就是穿过马路去唱片公司，向唱片公司宣传电影音乐，让他们对此感到兴奋。
I played them “Dueling Banjos,” and I said, “John Boorman thinks this should be a single.” They said, “Nah, come on.
我给他们演奏了《决斗班卓琴》，我说，“约翰·保曼认为这应该是一首单曲。”他们说：“不，来吧。
Are you kidding?
你在开玩笑吗？
Bluegrass?
蓝草？
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
We’re releasing Doobie Brothers and Neil Young.
我们将发行杜比兄弟和尼尔·杨的作品。
We’re not going to release this hayseed stuff.”
我们不会释放这些干草种子的东西。”
I had to go back across the street and explain to the rec film company and to Boorman that the record company was not going to release it.
我不得不回到街对面，向唱片公司和布尔曼解释唱片公司不会发行它。
They were furious, but at least I got the record company to press up 500 white label promos.
他们很愤怒，但至少我让唱片公司推出了 500 个白标宣传片。
Boorman took them with him when he started doing talk shows.
当布尔曼开始做脱口秀节目时，他也带着它们。
He did a talk show in Minneapolis.
他在明尼阿波利斯做了脱口秀。
His first date on his promotional tour was Minneapolis.
他的宣传之旅的第一个约会地点是明尼阿波利斯。
The next morning, I got a call from Warner Brothers Records warehouse, saying, “Do you know about this record, number such and such?” I said, “Yes, that’s a promotion single for Deliverance.” He said, “Do you know where I can get some more of them?
第二天早上，我接到华纳兄弟唱片仓库的电话，说：“你知道这张唱片吗？编号如此这般？”我说：“是的，这是《Deliverance》的宣传单曲。”他说：“你知道我在哪里可以得到更多吗？
I just had an order for 5,000 copies from Minneapolis.” The record company said, “Okay, I guess we’ll release it.” Then they had this number one record.
我刚刚从明尼阿波利斯接到了一份 5,000 本的订单。”唱片公司说：“好吧，我想我们会发行它。”然后他们就创造了这个第一记录。
When did you work with Stanley Kubrick?
您什么时候与斯坦利·库布里克合作？
Around the same time.
大约在同一时间。
As I said before when you asked me about it, I said I was involved with this soundtrack to Clockwork Orange and I wasn’t at the same time.
正如我之前所说，当你问我这件事时，我说我参与了《发条橙》的配乐，但我当时并没有参与。
Basically, I did whatever Stanley Kubrick asked me to do.
基本上，斯坦利·库布里克让我做什么我就做什么。
You don’t have creative input with Stanley.
你对斯坦利没有创意投入。
He was called —
他被称为 ——
Did he ask you to do the right things?
他有要求你做正确的事吗？
Well, sure.
嗯，当然。
The music to that film is one of the great strengths of the film.
这部电影的音乐是这部电影的一大优势。
He would call me up and say, “I need the Kurt Wangler recording from 1956 on Deutsche Grammophon of the Beethoven symphony number whatever.” I called Deutsche Grammophon and licensed it.
他会打电话给我说：“我需要库尔特·旺格勒 (Kurt Wangler) 1956 年在德意志留声机上录制的贝多芬交响曲的唱片。”我打电话给德意志留声机公司并获得了许可。
The funniest thing was Walter Carlos — just at the time that he was recording the soundtrack, the electronic Beethoven, he was transitioning to being Wendy Carlos.
最有趣的是沃尔特·卡洛斯（Walter Carlos）——就在他录制电子贝多芬配乐时，他正在转变为温迪·卡洛斯（Wendy Carlos）。
Still is Walter — I think the credit is Walter.
还是沃尔特 —— 我认为功劳在于沃尔特。
He did that great electronic version of Beethoven’s 9th.
他演奏了贝多芬第九交响曲的电子版本。
That one, the record company was excited to release a single, but Stanley insisted on approving the edit because we had to get it down to four minutes or four-and-a-half minutes.
那一次，唱片公司很高兴发行一首单曲，但斯坦利坚持批准剪辑，因为我们必须把它缩短到四分钟或四分半钟。
I tried to play it to him over the phone, and every time I played it to him over the phone, the phone would cut off.
我试着通过电话给他播放，但每次我通过电话给他播放时，电话都会挂断。
It turned out that one of Walter Carlos’s chords was exactly the same as this international digital signal for disconnect.
原来，沃尔特·卡洛斯的一根和弦与这个用于断开连接的国际数字信号一模一样。
In the middle of each time I played it to him — we had to send a messenger to London to play it to Stanley so he could approve it.
每次我给他播放的时候，我们都必须派一个信使到伦敦把它播放给斯坦利听，这样他才能批准。
What was Kubrick like?
库布里克是个什么样的人？
He was very, very sure of what he wanted.
他非常非常确定自己想要什么。
Just before the album was released, I had tried to save space in the copy on the back of the cover, and there were two Rossini tracks.
就在专辑发行之前，我曾试图在封面背面的文案中节省空间，其中有两首罗西尼的曲目。
The first time Rossini is mentioned, track 1, I put Gioachino Rossini.
第一次提到罗西尼时，在第 1 首，我把 Gioachino Rossini 放了上去。
It would cost me an extra line to spell out Gioachino, so I put G.
拼出 Gioachino 需要多一行字，所以我写了 G。
Rossini the second time for The Thieving Magpie.
罗西尼第二次出演《喜鹊贼》。
I got a call at 6:00 am at my home in Los Angeles when Stanley saw the proofs of the cover.
早上 6:00，我在洛杉矶的家中接到电话，当时斯坦利看到了封面样张。
He said, “Joe, I want Gioachino spelled out in full both times.” That was Stanley.
他说：“乔，我希望两次都完整地拼写出焦阿基诺 (Gioachino)。”那是斯坦利。
On Syd Barrett and R.E.M
关于 Syd Barrett 和 R.E.M
Did you work with Syd Barrett at all?
你和 Syd Barrett 一起工作过吗？
I did.
我做到了。
What was he like?
他是什么样的人？
Syd was great.
西德很棒。
I loved Syd.
我爱西德。
Fortunately, or unfortunately, when I worked with him, he was very clear.
幸运的是，或者不幸的是，当我和他一起工作时，他很清楚。
He wasn’t talkative.
他不爱说话。
With Pink Floyd, I just did the first single, “Arnold Layne,” but I worked with him at the UFO Club.
我刚刚与 Pink Floyd 合作制作了第一首单曲“Arnold Layne”，但我在 UFO 俱乐部与他合作。
I went to rehearsals, and I knew them all very well.
我参加了排练，我对他们都很了解。
Syd was great.
西德很棒。
Roger did most of the talking, but when some important decision would come, the other three would all look at Syd.
罗杰大部分时间都在说话，但当一些重要的决定到来时，其他三个人都会看着西德。
Syd would say, “I think we should do this.” They’d say, “Okay, that’s what we’re going to do.” He was a quiet leader and the sweetest guy you can imagine.
Syd 会说：“我认为我们应该这样做。”他们会说：“好吧，这就是我们要做的。”他是一位安静的领导者，也是你能想象到的最可爱的人。
I was very fond of Syd, and very sad about how it all ended.
我非常喜欢西德，但对这一切的结局感到非常难过。
Now, Fables of the Reconstruction is arguably R.E.M.’s most consistent album, and it has a quite different sound from the albums that came before.
现在，《Fables of the Reconstruction》可以说是 R.E.M. 最稳定的专辑，它的声音与之前的专辑截然不同。
Do you think your background in British folk music influenced how that album sounds?
你认为你的英国民间音乐背景影响了这张专辑的声音吗？
Did that come from you?
那是你发出来的吗？
I would never take responsibility for the way musicians play.
我永远不会对音乐家的演奏方式负责。
I’m not a musician.
我不是音乐家。
I did not push R.E.M.
我没有推 R.E.M。
in a particular direction.
在一个特定的方向。
They were looking to change things, and I persuaded them that the only way I could do the record — because I was still running my record label.
他们希望改变现状，我说服他们，我能做这张唱片的唯一方法是——因为我仍在经营我的唱片公司。
I had an office in London, and we were teetering on the edge of insolvency constantly.
我在伦敦有一个办事处，我们经常在破产的边缘摇摇欲坠。
I didn’t feel I could go to America for an extended period to make a record, but I could go up the road to North London, and so I persuaded them to come to England to do the record.
我觉得我不能长时间去美国录制唱片，但我可以沿着路去北伦敦，所以我说服他们来英国录制唱片。
They didn’t have a great time there.
他们在那里过得并不愉快。
They insisted on staying in the middle of London.
他们坚持留在伦敦市中心。
Then every day, it was an hour’s drive through traffic through north London, so they got to the studio a bit battered.
然后每天都要经过一个小时的车程穿过伦敦北部的交通，所以他们到达工作室时有点疲惫。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
There were tensions in the group that I was unaware of when I was dealing with them, and I think, ever since then .
当我与他们打交道时，我没有意识到团队中存在紧张气氛，我想，从那时起。
.
。
.
。
I’ve stayed in touch with many of them.
我与他们中的许多人保持着联系。
They’re the most well-organized, professional group of people I’ve ever encountered.
他们是我遇到过的组织最严密、最专业的一群人。
They were just so clear and together, from my perspective as an outsider.
从我作为局外人的角度来看，他们是如此清晰和团结。
I understand that there were tensions within the group.
我知道小组内部存在紧张气氛。
The rainy weather and the hour-long drive to the studio did not help.
阴雨天气和长达一个小时的车程到工作室并没有帮助。
But somehow, my way of working with them captured that mood.
但不知何故，我与他们合作的方式捕捉到了这种情绪。
I did the tracks that I felt I could contribute something on.
我制作了一些我觉得自己可以做出贡献的曲目。
“Wendell Gee” sounded like my backyard, it’s a folky tune.
“Wendell Gee”听起来就像我的后院，是一首民谣曲调。
I got a British horn section to play on “Can’t Get There from Here,” and a British string section to play on “Feeling Gravity’s Pull.”
我在“Can't Get There from Here”中演奏了英国圆号部分，在“Feeling Gravity's Pull”中演奏了英国弦乐部分。
That may have had some effect, but it’s a funny thing.
这可能产生了一些影响，但这是一件有趣的事情。
I think at the time, they were a bit disappointed in the album.
我想当时他们对这张专辑有点失望。
I was a bit disappointed because I never felt I got the sound quite right.
我有点失望，因为我从来没有觉得我的声音完全正确。
Because when we were mixing it, Michael Stipe would say, “Bring the voice down.
因为当我们混音时，迈克尔·斯蒂普会说：“把声音放低。
Keep the voice down.
压低声音。
Don’t let the voice be too far out in front.” Peter Buck kept saying, “Bring the guitar back a little bit.
别让声音离前面太远。”彼得·巴克一直说：“把吉他拿回来一点。
I don’t want it to stick out too much.” I said, “Guys, come on, what am I building this mix around here?
我不想让它太突出。”我说：“伙计们，来吧，我要在这里混搭什么？
I’ve got nothing left.”
我什么都没有剩下了。”
I felt always that the mixes were a little subtle compared to what I had imagined.
我总觉得这些混音与我想象的相比有点微妙。
Michael didn’t want his voice too prominent or too strong.
迈克尔不希望自己的声音太突出或太强。
Peter didn’t want his guitar too prominent or too strong, so that shaped the sound of the record.
彼得不想让他的吉他太突出或太强，所以这塑造了唱片的声音。
I think I had wanted it a little different.
我想我希望它有点不同。
I think when they heard it, they felt, “Mm, mm, is this really something better than what we had before?” Over the years, all of them .
我想当他们听到的时候，他们会觉得，“嗯，嗯，这真的比我们以前的更好吗？”多年来，他们所有人。
.
。
.
。
I haven’t seen Bill, but the others have all come to me at various times and said, “You know, we really love that album now.”
我没有见过比尔，但其他人都在不同的时间来找我说，“你知道，我们现在真的很喜欢这张专辑。”
It holds up very well.
它保持得很好。
It’s not Murmur, where everything’s always receding into the background, but it’s almost like the slight mix of American folk traditions with just a tinge of British folk thrown in.
这不是《Murmur》，那里的一切总是隐退到背景中，但它几乎就像是美国民间传统与英国民谣的轻微混合。
Maybe, but if it is, it’s not deliberate.
也许吧，但如果是的话，那也不是故意的。
It’s subconscious.
这是潜意识的。
On artists who integrated American and British folk traditions
论融合美国和英国民间传统的艺术家
Is there any artist who has really successfully integrated American and British folk traditions?
有没有真正成功融合美国和英国民间传统的艺术家？
Did Richard Thompson do that a bit or has anyone?
理查德·汤普森（Richard Thompson）做过这样的事吗？或者有人做过吗？
Let me think.
让我想想。
Natalie Merchant was such a huge fan of Sandy Denny and Shirley Collins.
娜塔莉·麦昌特是桑迪·丹尼和雪莉·柯林斯的超级粉丝。
The record I did right after Fables was The Wishing Chair, which nobody talks about today.
我在《寓言》之后录制的唱片是《许愿椅》，但今天没人谈论它。
That record has just sunk beneath the waves of history, but it had some lovely tracks on it, including “Just as the Tide was a’Flowing,” which is Natalie’s American folk rock take on a classic British folk song.
这张唱片刚刚沉没在历史的浪潮中，但它有一些可爱的曲目，包括“Just as the Tide was a’Flowing”，这是娜塔莉对一首经典英国民谣的美国民谣摇滚演绎。
Of course, what’s her name?
当然，她叫什么名字？
Cassidy, Joanna Cassidy.
卡西迪，乔安娜·卡西迪。
What’s the name of the girl?
那个女孩叫什么名字？
Eva Cassidy.
伊娃·卡西迪。
Yes, who had a very famous version of “Who Knows Where the Time Goes,” which is classic Sandy Denny’s song.
是的，他有一个非常著名的版本“谁知道时间去哪儿了”，这是桑迪·丹尼的经典歌曲。
I think that she made that song very popular.
我认为她让这首歌很受欢迎。
Sam Amidon goes back and forth between collaborating with American traditional artists and collaborating with British traditional artists.
Sam Amidon 在与美国传统艺术家和英国传统艺术家的合作之间来回徘徊。
There’s a wonderful guy called Tim Eriksen.
有一个很棒的人，名叫蒂姆·埃里克森。
He lives in Massachusetts, and he’s one of the leaders of The Sacred Harp shape note revival of that singing tradition.
他住在马萨诸塞州，是神圣竖琴形状音符复兴这一歌唱传统的领导者之一。
He sings American folk music, but mostly from New England, mostly Northeastern American folk music.
他唱美国民间音乐，但主要来自新英格兰，主要是美国东北部的民间音乐。
He comes to England and tours with Eliza Carthy and explores those connections between ancient British ballads and the way that they arrive in North America.
他来到英国，与伊丽莎·卡西一起巡演，探索古代英国民谣与其到达北美的方式之间的联系。
There are so many connections back and forth.
有如此多的来回联系。
Of course, in the modern day, Richard Thompson — he and Simon Nicol and the other guys in Fairport grew up listening to American music.
当然，在现代，理查德·汤普森（Richard Thompson）——他和西蒙·尼科尔（Simon Nicol）以及费尔波特的其他人都是听着美国音乐长大的。
They grew up listening to jug band music.
他们是听着罐乐队音乐长大的。
They grew up listening to singer-songwriters.
他们是听歌手兼作曲家的歌长大的。
When I first met them, they were singing all kinds of Phil Ochs songs and Eric Andersen songs and Bob Dylan songs.
当我第一次见到他们时，他们正在唱各种菲尔·奥克斯（Phil Ochs）的歌曲、埃里克·安德森（Eric Andersen）的歌曲和鲍勃·迪伦（Bob Dylan）的歌曲。
Then, when the tragedy happened, and they wanted to change their repertoire, Music from Big Pink came out, and that blew their mind.
然后，当悲剧发生时，他们想改变他们的曲目，《Big Pink 的音乐》出现了，这让他们大吃一惊。
They thought, “We better not do any more American music because these guys just nailed it.
他们想，“我们最好不要再做美国音乐了，因为这些人已经成功了。
You can’t do anything better than this.” But they took the spirit of music from Big Pink and applied it to British traditional music, and the result of that was Liege & Lief.
你不能做任何比这更好的事情了。”但他们从 Big Pink 汲取了音乐精神，并将其应用到英国传统音乐中，结果就是 Liege & Lief。
So, I think that could qualify as a bridge of some kind between the two traditions.
所以，我认为这可以作为两种传统之间的某种桥梁。
They end up not putting the song “Ballad of Easy Rider” on Liege & Lief album.
他们最终没有将歌曲“Ballad of Easy Rider”放入 Liege & Lief 专辑中。
You must have been involved with that?
你一定也参与其中吧？
There’s a demo cut of them doing the Byrds song, “Ballad of Easy Rider,” and it’s later on the Richard Thompson Guitar album.
他们演奏 Byrds 歌曲“Ballad of Easy Rider”的演示剪辑，后来出现在 Richard Thompson 吉他专辑中。
Yes, but it wasn’t for Liege & Lief.
是的，但这不是为了 Liege & Lief。
I think I’m correct in saying that that track has Ian Matthews on it, so it’s from the Unhalfbricking period of recordings.
我认为我正确地说那首歌曲中有 Ian Matthews，所以它来自 Unhalfbricking 时期的录音。
I believe it was originally proposed either for What We Did on Our Holidays or more for Unhalfbricking.
我相信它最初是为“我们假期里做了什么”或“Unhalfbricking”而提出的。
It never would’ve been considered for Liege & Lief because that was a high-concept record that was going to be completely British, so there was never any question of putting it on.
《Liege & Lief》永远不会考虑这张唱片，因为那是一张完全属于英国的高概念唱片，所以从来不存在任何将其放上去的问题。
I think I would’ve supported the idea of having that.
我想我会支持这样的想法。
I thought it’s a good song, and they do a very nice version of it.
我认为这是一首好歌，他们做了一个非常好听的版本。
There was talk of it being on Unhalfbricking, I think, but somehow, they decided it didn’t make the cut.
我想，有传言说它会出现在 Unhalfbricking 上，但不知何故，他们认为它没有入选。
On Shoot the Lights Out
关掉灯
When you finished producing Richard and Linda Thompson’s Shoot the Lights Out, did you just know at the end that this is one of the best records ever?
当你制作完理查德和琳达·汤普森的《Shoot the Lights Out》时，你最后是否知道这是有史以来最好的唱片之一？
Or did that take you by surprise?
或者这让你感到惊讶吗？
It didn’t take me by surprise.
这并不让我感到惊讶。
We cut the tracks in two days, and it just jumped out of the speakers at us.
我们花了两天时间就剪完了曲目，它就从扬声器里跳出来，跳到我们面前。
It took a few more evenings to get Linda’s vocals finished, but it was clearly a fantastic record.
琳达的声音又花了几个晚上才完成，但这显然是一张很棒的唱片。
I pretty much mortgaged everything I had — or everything Hannibal Records had — to buy plane tickets for them to fly to America to do a tour because I knew that this was Hannibal Records’ first real potential home run.
我几乎抵押了我拥有的一切——或者汉尼拔唱片公司拥有的一切——购买机票，让他们飞往美国进行巡演，因为我知道这是汉尼拔唱片公司的第一个真正的潜在全垒打。
Then I spent the next six months desperately struggling to press enough records to supply the demand that was out there following that tour.
然后我在接下来的六个月里拼命努力压出足够的唱片来满足巡演后的需求。
It’s the old story of the little independent label: The worst thing that can happen to you is to have a hit.
这是小独立厂牌的老故事：发生在你身上的最糟糕的事情就是大受欢迎。
The distributors pay you in 90 days, and the pressing plants need to be paid in 30 days, so you’re always in this terrible squeeze, and the more records you sell, the worse the squeeze gets.
发行商要在 90 天内付款给你，而压制厂需要在 30 天内付款，所以你总是处于这种可怕的挤压之中，你卖的唱片越多，挤压就越严重。
How did you think about shaping the sound on that album?
你是如何考虑塑造那张专辑的声音的？
Terms like shaping the sound, I never —
像塑造声音这样的术语，我从来不 -
They had you there for some reason, right?
他们出于某种原因让你在那里，对吗？
You’ve been involved in a lot of successful projects.
您参与了许多成功的项目。
They had me there, for sure, because I brought them there.
他们把我带到了那里，这是肯定的，因为我把他们带到了那里。
I paid them to come, and I paid the studio, and I hired the engineer, and I sat there and told them when they’d got a great take.
我付钱让他们来，我付钱给工作室，我雇了工程师，我坐在那里告诉他们什么时候他们得到了很好的效果。
Then, I sat with the engineer, and they weren’t anywhere around, and I mixed the record.
然后，我和工程师坐在一起，他们不在身边，我就对唱片进行了混音。
I just mixed things to sound the way that it feels like they should sound to me.
我只是将一些东西混合起来，让它们听起来像我应该听到的那样。
It’s not a conceptual, intellectual process like I have some idea about a sound that I want to get on this record.
这不是一个概念性的、智力的过程，就像我对我想在这张唱片上得到的声音有一些想法一样。
You put the multitrack through the board, and you put up one track at a time, and you get the bass to sound the way you think a bass should sound, and then you get the bass drum to fit with it, and then you get the drum kit to fit around that.
你把多轨穿过板，一次放一个音轨，然后你让贝斯听起来像你认为贝斯应该听起来的方式，然后你让低音鼓适应它，然后你让鼓组适应它。
Then you get the rhythm guitar to fit in with the drum kit.
然后你就可以让节奏吉他与架子鼓相匹配。
In the end, you have a sound, but it doesn’t come from the concept down.
最后，你得到了一个声音，但它并不是来自概念。
It’s not top-down; it’s bottom-up, building it up track by track.
它不是自上而下的；而是自上而下的。它是自下而上的，逐条轨道地构建它。
On Dylan and the birth of rock
关于迪伦和摇滚的诞生
Now, as I’m sure you know, there’s a new Bob Dylan movie out called A Complete Unknown.
现在，我相信你知道，鲍勃·迪伦有一部新电影《完全未知》上映。
The climactic scene in the movie is all about the Newport Folk Festival in 1965 where “Dylan goes electric.” You were the sound producer there, right?
电影中的高潮场景是关于 1965 年纽波特民谣音乐节，“迪伦走向电动”。你是那里的声音制作人，对吗？
No, I was a production manager.
不，我是一名生产经理。
There’s a character in the film who is credited with playing the part of Joe Boyd, the sound engineer.
影片中有一个角色被认为扮演了音响工程师乔·博伊德的角色。
I think the actor who’s supposed to be playing me is at the sound controls.
我认为扮演我的演员正在控制声音。
I haven’t seen the picture yet.
我还没看到照片。
But I was the production manager.
但我是生产经理。
I was very concerned with the sound because I had been to the ’63 Newport Festival, and I thought it was a fantastic event.
我非常关心声音，因为我参加过 63 年的纽波特音乐节，我认为这是一次很棒的活动。
It was a never-to-be-forgotten, seeing Mississippi John Hurt and Doc Watson through the fog coming in off Narragansett Bay and Dylan linking arms with Joni and Pete and singing “We Shall Overcome.” But the sound was terrible.
这是永远不会忘记的，看到密西西比州的约翰·赫特和沃森医生穿过雾气从纳拉甘西特湾驶来，看到迪伦与乔尼和皮特挽着手，唱着“我们将克服”。但声音却很可怕。
All through this festival of ’63, I felt the sound was really crap.
整个63年的音乐节，我都觉得这声音很糟糕。
You’d have a bluegrass band with a guy playing the fiddle, and you couldn’t hear the fiddle!
你有一个蓝草乐队，里面有一个人拉小提琴，但你却听不到小提琴的声音！
The first thing I did when I got behind my desk in June of ’65 in New York at George Wayne’s office was call up Paul Rothchild, the great producer, the guy who produced The Doors and Janis Joplin and so many things.
65 年 6 月，当我回到纽约乔治·韦恩办公室的办公桌后做的第一件事就是打电话给伟大的制片人保罗·罗斯柴尔德（Paul Rothchild），他制作了《大门》（The Doors）和贾尼斯·乔普林（Janis Joplin）等许多作品。
I said, “Hey, Paul, why don’t you come up to Newport and mix the sound?” He said, “Okay, can I have three kin passes?” Meaning for his family: places to stay, passes to every event.
我说：“嘿，保罗，你为什么不来纽波特混音呢？”他说：“好吧，我可以办三张亲属通行证吗？”对他的家人的意义：住宿的地方，参加每场活动的通行证。
I said, “Deal.
我说：“成交。
You got it.”
你明白了。”
So, Paul and I together sound checked everybody.
所以，保罗和我一起对每个人进行了声音检查。
Every single artist that appeared at Newport was sound checked in the morning by me and Paul except for Dylan, who we sound checked in the evening, six o’clock, between the afternoon show and the evening show, because Dylan wouldn’t get up in the morning to be sound checked.
出现在纽波特的每一位艺术家早上都会被我和保罗检查声音，除了迪伦，我们在晚上六点钟，下午演出和晚上演出之间进行声音检查，因为迪伦不会早上起床接受声音检查。
The guy on the board, the guy whose hands were on those mixers was Paul Rothchild, not me.
董事会上的那个人，那个把手放在那些搅拌机上的人是保罗·罗斯柴尔德，而不是我。
I’ve never been a sound engineer.
我从来没有当过音响工程师。
I don’t have any technical qualification to be a sound engineer.
我没有任何成为音响工程师的技术资格。
Neither did Paul for that matter, but he was better at it than I was.
保罗在这方面也没有，但他比我更擅长。
The controversy at the time — was it really about Dylan playing electric?
当时的争议是——“这真的是迪伦演奏电音的问题吗？”
Was it just about the poor quality of the sound?
仅仅是因为音质不佳吗？
Was it about Pete Seeger being upset?
是因为 Pete Seeger 感到不安吗？
What actually happened at that time?
当时究竟发生了什么？
I think the controversy — you could see it coming for a month, if not more.
我认为争论 ——你可能会看到它会持续一个月，甚至更长时间。
To me, you can see it.
对我来说，你可以看到它。
Have you seen that film, The Other Side of the Mirror?
你看过《镜子的另一面》这部电影吗？
I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
It’s basically Murray Lerner who shot that film festival, which is about the Newport Festival, has all the footage from ’63, ’64, ’65, ’66.
基本上是 Murray Lerner 拍摄了那个关于纽波特电影节的电影节，拥有 63 年、64 年、65 年、66 年的所有镜头。
The Other Side of the Mirror is all the Dylan footage from ’63, ’64, and ’65, and it’s fascinating.
《镜子的另一面》收录了迪伦 63 年、64 年和 65 年的所有镜头，非常精彩。
In ’63, he’s the idealistic singing about a coal miner, and Pete, everybody looking at him like he’s Woody Guthrie.
63 年，他唱的是关于煤矿工人和皮特的理想主义歌曲，每个人都看着他，就像他是伍迪·格思里 (Woody Guthrie) 一样。
Then in the ’64, he does a workshop, and Pete Seeger introduces him as the voice of a generation, and he gets up to the microphone, and he sings “Mr. Tambourine Man.” You look at Seeger, who looks puzzled, slightly shocked.
然后在 64 年，他举办了一个研讨会，皮特·西格 (Pete Seeger) 把他介绍为一代人的声音，然后他走到麦克风前，唱起了“手鼓人先生”(Mr. Tambourine Man)。你看着西格，他看上去很困惑，还有些震惊。
What is this?
这是什么？
This isn’t a protest song.
这不是一首抗议歌曲。
This isn’t a song you could sing at the barricades.
这不是一首你可以在街垒上唱的歌。
This isn’t a song that’s going to move the youth to revolution.
这不是一首会推动年轻人革命的歌曲。
What is this?
这是什么？
That is the beginning of what happened in ’65, is Dylan moving away in a different direction, and he’d already recorded half an album with an electric band in the studio.
这就是 65 年发生的事情的开始，迪伦朝着不同的方向前进，他已经在录音室里和一支电子乐队录制了半张专辑。
Just before, in the weeks leading up to the festival, we had The Byrds’ “Mr. Tambourine Man,” electric version, on the Top 40 radio.
就在音乐节前几周，我们在 Top 40 电台播放了 The Byrds 的“Mr. Tambourine Man”电子版本。
We had Dylan, “Like A Rolling Stone” with an electric band on the radio.
收音机里有迪伦和电子乐队的《Like A Rolling Stone》。
It was Top 40 big business, mainstream popular culture moving into this delicate little idealistic corner called the Newport Folk Festival, which was based on mostly all-acoustic music and very pure, traditional, or idealistic.
这是前 40 名大企业、主流流行文化进入了这个被称为纽波特民谣音乐节的精致的理想主义小角落，它主要基于全原声音乐，非常纯粹、传统或理想主义。
Everybody — Pete Seeger and Theodore Bikel and Alan Lomax, and a lot of people in the audience — sensed that this was a bull in a china shop, that this was big-time something moving into this delicate little world.
每个人——皮特·西格（Pete Seeger）、西奥多·比克尔（Theodore Bikel）和艾伦·洛马克斯（Alan Lomax），以及观众中的很多人——都感觉到这是瓷器店里的一头公牛，这是进入这个精致小世界的重大事件。
I was totally on Dylan’s side.
我完全站在迪伦一边。
Paul Rothchild and I were like, “Yes.” But in retrospect, I see Pete Seeger’s point, absolutely.
保罗·罗斯柴尔德和我的反应是：“是的。”但回想起来，我绝对理解皮特·西格的观点。
I would contest — of course, I would, wouldn’t I — contest that the sound was awful.
我会争辩——当然，我会争辩，我不是——会争辩说声音太糟糕了。
It was just very loud.
声音非常大。
Nobody had ever heard sound that loud.
没有人听过这么大声的声音。
I think Rothchild pushed up the faders, but it had to be because it was the first moment of rock.
我认为罗斯柴尔德推了推子，但这一定是因为这是摇滚的第一个时刻。
Nobody ever used the word “rock” before 1965.
1965 年之前没有人使用过“摇滚”这个词。
There was rock and roll, there was pop, there was rhythm and blues, but there wasn’t rock.
有摇滚，有流行，有节奏和蓝调，但没有摇滚。
This was rock because you had a drummer, Sam Lay, who was hitting the drums very hard.
这就是摇滚，因为鼓手 Sam Lay 敲鼓非常用力。
Mike Bloomfield — this was his moment.
迈克·布卢姆菲尔德（Mike Bloomfield）——这是属于他的时刻。
He cranked up the level on his guitar.
他提高了吉他的音量。
You didn’t have direct connections from amps to the PA system in those days.
那时，放大器与 PA 系统之间没有直接连接。
You just had the sound coming straight out of the amp.
声音直接从放大器中传出。
So, with the sound of the drums, the sound of the bass, the sound of Bloomfield’s guitar, you had to turn the vocal up so that it would be heard over the guitar.
因此，对于鼓的声音、贝斯的声音、布卢姆菲尔德的吉他的声音，你必须把人声调高，这样才能通过吉他听到。
That escalation of volume is what shaped or defined the future of rock.
体积的增加塑造或定义了摇滚乐的未来。
It became really loud music.
它变成了非常吵闹的音乐。
That was the first time anybody heard it.
那是有人第一次听说。
It was really shocking.
实在是太震撼了。
There was probably a little distortion because the speakers weren’t used to it, but it was the kind of sound that would be normal two years later.
可能因为扬声器不习惯而有一点失真，但两年后这种声音就很正常了。
But that night it wasn’t, and I think Newport and folk music and jazz never really recovered.
但那天晚上却没有，我认为纽波特、民间音乐和爵士乐从未真正恢复过来。
Every young person who used to become a folk or a jazz fan became a rock fan.
每个曾经成为民谣或爵士乐迷的年轻人都变成了摇滚乐迷。
I’ve noticed that younger people today, maybe say below 40 — they just don’t seem to get Bob Dylan.
我注意到今天的年轻人，也许是 40 岁以下的人——他们似乎不太理解鲍勃·迪伦。
Do you have a similar impression?
你是否也有类似的印象呢？
It’s not surprising in a way because he’s become such a quirky performer —
从某种程度上来说，这并不奇怪，因为他变成了一个如此古怪的表演者 ——
They listen to the older records, say ’63 through Blood on the Tracks, and they’re like, “Eh.” To me, it’s a revelation.
他们听较旧的唱片，比如《63》的《Blood on the Tracks》，然后他们会说，“呃。”对我来说，这是一个启示。
I’ve just heard the contrary.
我刚刚听到相反的消息。
I can’t remember if somebody wrote it, or I heard this on a podcast or something, that the response to the film has been that young people are going, “Oh, now we get it.” And they’re going back and listening to the early records.
我不记得是否有人写过这部电影，或者我在播客或其他什么地方听到过这部电影，年轻人对这部电影的反应是，“哦，现在我们明白了。”他们会回去听早期的唱片。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I can’t say I go out there taking polls of young people.
我不能说我出去对年轻人进行民意调查。
“What do you think of Bob Dylan?”
“你觉得鲍勃·迪伦怎么样？”
I don’t really know what young people think of Bob Dylan, but the nature of music, one of the most important things that music does is, it gives young generations a chance to give the finger to their parents’ generation and to reject things and to have their own thing.
我真的不知道年轻人对鲍勃·迪伦的看法，但音乐的本质，音乐所做的最重要的事情之一是，它让年轻一代有机会向父母那一代人伸出手指，拒绝事物并拥有自己的东西。
That’s part of the regenerative process of music.
这是音乐再生过程的一部分。
On Indian music’s influence on the Beatles
印度音乐对披头士乐队的影响
What do you think was the Beatles’ most successful integration with Indian music?
您认为披头士乐队与印度音乐最成功的融合是什么？
Oh, that’s a tricky question.
哦，这是一个棘手的问题。
In some ways, the most popular tune is “Norwegian Wood,” but there are lots of much more elaborate collaborations between George Harrison and Indian musicians in subsequent albums, in Revolver and Sergeant Pepper.
在某些方面，最受欢迎的曲子是“挪威的森林”，但在随后的专辑《左轮手枪》和《佩珀中士》中，乔治·哈里森和印度音乐家之间有许多更精心的合作。
But I would say that in a way, the most significant effect of Indian music on the Beatles was in the much more abstract way that it affected Lennon and Harrison.
但我想说，在某种程度上，印度音乐对披头士乐队最重要的影响是以更抽象的方式影响了列侬和哈里森。
It changed George Harrison’s guitar playing.
它改变了乔治哈里森的吉他演奏。
I think a lot of what you hear of George Harrison from The White Album and Abbey Road all the way through into his solo work, is very different than what you heard before he was exposed to those lessons with Ravi Shankar and his trips to India and his exposure to that culture.
我认为你从《白色专辑》和《艾比路》一直到他的个人作品中听到的乔治·哈里森的很多内容，与你在接触拉维·香卡的课程、他的印度之旅和接触印度文化之前所听到的有很大不同。
Even before the slide guitar work, so a solo on a song like “Something” — that to you is Indian influenced?
甚至在幻灯片吉他开始工作之前，像“Something”这样的歌曲中的独奏对你来说是受印度影响的吗？
Yes, I think so.
是的，我想是的。
I think that was one of the things that appealed to George about slide guitar, was the way that you could find the notes between the notes, which is the basis of Indian music.
我认为滑音吉他吸引乔治的地方之一就是你可以在音符之间找到音符的方式，这是印度音乐的基础。
Indian music has scales that are not found on a piano.
印度音乐的音阶是钢琴所没有的。
That’s one of the revelations that I got from the research on this book, was that so many cultures around the world outside of Europe have scales that are not divided mathematically, that are mostly, many times, pentatonic, meaning five notes.
这是我从这本书的研究中得到的启示之一，那就是欧洲以外的世界各地的许多文化都有没有以数学方式划分的音阶，很多时候都是五声音阶的，意思是五个音符。
The blue notes that are such an integral part of American music, are really an attempt by African American musicians to find that note that is somewhere hidden between the seventh major and the seventh flatted, or the fifth flatted.
蓝色音符是美国音乐不可或缺的一部分，实际上是非裔美国音乐家试图找到隐藏在第七大调和第七降调或第五降调之间的音符。
That slide guitar, the bending of the guitar string, the slurring of the saxophone note, the slurring of the vocal, is an attempt to escape the straightjacket of do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do.
那张滑音吉他、吉他弦的弯曲、萨克斯管音符的含糊不清、人声的含糊不清，都是一种逃离 do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do 束缚的尝试。
That was the thing that John Coltrane found fascinating about Indian music and Indian culture, and what George Harrison found fascinating.
这就是约翰·科尔特兰 (John Coltrane) 认为印度音乐和印度文化令人着迷的地方，也是乔治·哈里森 (George Harrison) 认为令人着迷的地方。
The slide allowed Mississippi Delta musicians going back to the 1920s to explore that world of between the notes, the notes between the notes.
这张幻灯片让密西西比三角洲的音乐家们能够回到 20 年代，探索音符之间、音符之间的世界。
I think George Harrison — his exposure to Indian music led him to seize upon the slide as a way to express.
我认为乔治·哈里森——他对印度音乐的接触使他抓住了幻灯片作为表达的方式。
Once he realized that he was never going to be a virtuoso on the sitar, he refocused himself on the guitar and became a master.
当他意识到自己永远不可能成为西塔琴演奏家时，他重新专注于吉他并成为了一位大师。
You know the solo on Taxman is by Paul McCartney, not George.
你知道《Taxman》的独奏是保罗·麦卡特尼（Paul McCartney）的，而不是乔治。
I know.
我知道。
In a funny way it’s Paul doing it first.
有趣的是，是保罗先做的。
I corrected that in the second edition.
我在第二版中更正了这一点。
In the book?
书里？
Yes.
是的。
Oh great.
哦，太棒了。
COWEN: How was a Bombay classical music concert different in the 1930s?
COWEN：20 世纪 30 年代的孟买古典音乐会有何不同？
Well, I obviously wasn’t there, but my understanding is that Ravi Shankar’s vision of how to present Indian music to a Western audience — he knew that a Western audience wouldn’t sit still for six hours the way an audience might in .
好吧，我显然不在那儿，但我的理解是，拉维·香卡（Ravi Shankar）对如何向西方观众展示印度音乐的愿景 ——他知道西方观众不会像观众那样静坐六个小时。
.
。
.
。
One of the things that was an interesting revelation for me was that Hindustani classical music in the ’20s and ’30s and the 19th century was very exclusive to the wealthy.
对我来说，一个有趣的启示是，20 世纪 20 年代、30 年代以及 19 世纪的印度斯坦古典音乐是富人的专属。
They were mostly concerts in grand palaces and homes.
它们大多是在宏伟的宫殿和住宅中举行的音乐会。
When they started coming into concert halls, they were very often as they had been in these grand homes.
当他们开始走进音乐厅时，他们常常就像在这些宏伟的住宅里一样。
There’s a Satyajit Ray film called The Music Room in which you see these people with food and water and wine and whatever.
有一部萨蒂亚吉特·雷 (Satyajit Ray) 的电影，名为《音乐室》(The Music Room)，在片中你会看到这些人拿着食物、水、酒等等。
It will last them for hours because they have to sit around.
这会让他们持续几个小时，因为他们必须坐着。
And they would play slow ragas for a long time, a morning raga in the morning, and then you’d hear an afternoon raga.
他们会演奏很长时间的慢速拉格，早上演奏早上的拉格，然后你会听到下午的拉格。
Ravi compressed everything so that within one 40-minute passage, you heard slow, and then medium, and then fast, and you had a tabla solo.
拉维压缩了所有内容，以便在 40 分钟的一段时间内，你听到慢速，然后是中速，然后是快速，然后你就听到了塔布拉独奏。
That’s what Western audiences grew to expect from an Indian music concert, and Indian musicians delivered it.
这就是西方观众对印度音乐会的期望，而印度音乐家也实现了这一点。
Eventually, that format became popular back in India, but when it first came to the West it was very different than the way it was in India.
最终，这种格式在印度流行起来，但当它第一次来到西方时，它与印度的方式有很大不同。
The musical guitar sound from Kinshasa.
来自金沙萨的音乐吉他声。
Why is it so hard to replicate?
为何如此难以复制？
It sounds so simple, hardly anyone can do it.
听起来很简单，几乎没有人能做到。
What’s the trick?
有什么窍门呢？
Listen, I wish I knew.
听着，我希望我知道。
I’m not a guitar player so I can’t even begin to say, but I do know that, for me, that’s one of the most magical sounds in world music.
我不是吉他手，所以我什至无法开始说，但我确实知道，对我来说，这是世界音乐中最神奇的声音之一。
I had the great pleasure of working with an artist called Kanda Bongo Man on Hannibal Records, and we organized tours for him to Britain and North America.
我很高兴能与汉尼拔唱片公司的一位名叫 Kanda Bongo Man 的艺术家合作，我们为他组织了前往英国和北美的巡演。
I used to sit in front of those guitars and just listen to the way that those three guitars, all playing these complicated arpeggios — they just somehow buzzed and chimed together in a very particular and unique way.
我曾经坐在那些吉他前，听那三把吉他的演奏方式，它们都演奏着这些复杂的琶音——它们只是以某种方式嗡嗡作响，以一种非常特殊和独特的方式组合在一起。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It’s just one of the great sounds.
这只是美妙的声音之一。
There’s a book by an American guy who went to Kinshasa to figure it out.
有一个美国人写的一本书，他去金沙萨想弄清楚这个问题。
He writes a whole book, Rumba Rules, it’s called, by Bob White, I think is his name.
他写了一整本书，《伦巴规则》，作者鲍勃·怀特（Bob White），我想这是他的名字。
He never could get it.
他永远无法得到它。
He did, he played with bands.
他做到了，他和乐队一起演奏。
He said he kind of passed; he just about got away with it, but he never could really improvise the arpeggios that those guys do in Congolese rumba.
他说他有点过了；他差点就侥幸逃脱了惩罚，但他永远无法像那些人在刚果伦巴那样即兴创作琶音。
On maintaining a music collection
关于维护音乐收藏
Now you’re also a music collector.
现在您也是一名音乐收藏家。
At least at one point, you had 6,000 vinyl LPs.
至少在某一时刻，您拥有 6,000 张黑胶唱片。
Still.
仍然。
I’m looking at them.
我看着他们。
Yes, probably more — 30,000 compact discs.
是的，可能更多——三万张光盘。
What is your system for making sure you keep on listening to what you own?
您有什么系统可以确保您继续聆听自己拥有的内容？
It’s very elaborate, but it works.
它非常复杂，但很有效。
I feel it’s supremely rational.
我觉得这是非常理性的。
There could possibly be some people who might find it eccentric.
可能有些人会觉得它很奇怪。
But they’re all organized by country, all the vinyl, and then I have CDs in drawers, custom-built drawers, and they’re all organized by country, alphabetical within the country.
但它们都是按国家/地区组织的，所有黑胶唱片，然后我在抽屉里放了 CD，定制的抽屉，它们都是按国家/地区组织的，按国内字母顺序排列。
Basically, over the years, I have loaded the CDs, digitized the vinyl, digitized cassettes.
基本上，这些年来，我已经加载了 CD、数字化了黑胶唱片、数字化了磁带。
I’ve got tons of cassettes, and I’m only — I don’t know — a quarter of the way through, but it’s all now on a hard drive.
我有大量的磁带，我只看了四分之一——————我不知道————但现在全部都在硬盘上了。
I’ve got a computer with an old-fashioned version of iTunes that has never been updated.
我有一台装有旧版 iTunes 且从未更新过的电脑。
So, it’s better.
所以，这样更好。
Exactly.
确切地。
All of those digitized versions are wave files, no MP3s allowed.
所有这些数字化版本都是波形文件，不允许使用 MP3。
On that, iTunes, I organized them .
我在 iTunes 上组织了它们。
.
。
.
。
Mostly, you can organize them any way you like, but I usually organize them by song title.
大多数情况下，您可以按照自己喜欢的方式组织它们，但我通常按歌曲标题组织它们。
Then I download a bunch of them in alphabetical order.
然后我按字母顺序下载了一堆。
At the moment I’m listening to one of those big old iPods that actually my wife Andrea has.
此刻我正在听我妻子安德里亚 (Andrea) 拥有的一款大型老式 iPod。
It’s her iPod, this big one with a big circle in the middle.
这是她的 iPod，很大，中间有一个大圆圈。
At wave level, you can fit, I don’t know, 5,000 tunes on or something — what we’ve got, which covers from SA through SU.
在波浪级别，我不知道，你可以容纳 5,000 首曲子之类的东西 —— 我们拥有的东西，涵盖了从 SA 到 SU 的范围。
So, I have 5,000 titles between SA and SU, and it means you can hear all different versions of the same song.
因此，我在 SA 和 SU 之间有 5,000 个标题，这意味着您可以听到同一首歌的所有不同版本。
The other day, I listened to twelve versions of “St. Louis Blues” and eight versions of “St. James Infirmary.”
有一天，我听了十二个版本的“圣路易斯布鲁斯”和八个版本的“圣詹姆斯医院”。
It’s fascinating.
这很有趣。
It’s great.
这很棒。
I really like that.
我真的很喜欢这样。
Then we just keep moving, keep going around, and keep adding, so every time around the alphabet, there’s more, different, takes longer every time.
然后我们就继续移动，继续走动，继续添加，所以每次围绕字母表，都会有更多、不同的东西，每次都会花费更长的时间。
If I want to listen to a specific thing, I can always look it up, pull it out, which I did writing the book quite a lot because it’s all very anally organized.
如果我想听一个特定的东西，我总是可以查找它，把它拿出来，我在写这本书时经常这样做，因为它都是非常有组织性的。
Before my last question, I’d just like to plug your book again.
在我提出最后一个问题之前，我想再次插入您的书。
The title is And the Roots of Rhythm Remain: A Journey through Global Music.
标题是《节奏的根源依然存在：全球音乐之旅》。
Robert Plant of Led Zeppelin blurbed it as “profound and beyond.” Joe worked on this book for 17 years.
齐柏林飞船 (Led Zeppelin) 的罗伯特·普兰特 (Robert Plant) 将其概括为“深刻且超越”。乔为这本书工作了 17 年。
In my opinion, it is the most substantive book on world music ever.
在我看来，这是有史以来关于世界音乐最有实质性的书。
Congratulations, Joe.
恭喜，乔。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Last question is simply, what will you do next?
最后一个问题很简单，你接下来要做什么？
Well, I still have a lot of work to do on the book.
嗯，这本书我还有很多工作要做。
You may think it’s over now that it’s out, but I spent four months doing the audiobook because my voice is not so great these days.
你可能认为它已经出版了，但我花了四个月的时间来做有声读物，因为这些天我的声音不太好。
It sounds fine now, but I’ve been doing voice exercises.
现在听起来不错，但我一直在做发声练习。
When I first started the audiobook, after half an hour, 40 minutes of reading, I would start to sound like this, so it took me a long time.
我刚开始看有声读物的时候，读了半小时、四十分钟后，我就开始发出这样的声音，所以花了我很长时间。
It’s 41 hours, the audiobook, and I produced it myself.
这是41小时，有声读物，我自己制作的。
It’s now up on Amazon in America and Britain.
它现在在美国和英国的亚马逊上架。
I’m now focused on putting together playlists on my website for people reading the book — because it makes people have to look it up themselves.
我现在专注于在我的网站上为阅读这本书的人整理播放列表，因为这让人们必须自己查找。
I’m going to do playlists, make it easy for people.
我要做播放列表，让人们更容易。
Spotify playlists but also YouTube, which will be much more elaborate, which will have a lot of clips, a lot of little mini documentaries about people — just endless rabbit holes that you can go down.
Spotify 播放列表还有 YouTube，它会更加精致，其中会有很多剪辑，很多关于人的迷你纪录片——只是无尽的兔子洞，你可以钻进去。
I’m putting that together.
我把它们放在一起。
That’s a big project.
这是一个大工程。
After that, I haven’t really started exploring it.
之后我就没有真正开始探索了。
I know there are issues with copyright, but I want to figure out a way that I can play my collection and tell stories about it that people can listen to, whether that’s a radio show or a podcast or whatever.
我知道存在版权问题，但我想找到一种方式来播放我的收藏并讲述人们可以收听的故事，无论是广播节目还是播客还是其他什么。
I’ve done that before, that is Joe Boyd’s A–Z, which people can find on my website, which are like 10-minute-long trips through my collection.
我以前就这样做过，那就是 Joe Boyd 的 A-Z，人们可以在我的网站上找到它，这就像浏览我的收藏的 10 分钟长的旅行。
But this is more ambitious.
但这更加雄心勃勃。
This would be Joe Boyd’s Big A–Z, two-hour-long segments on things beginning with A.
这将是 Joe Boyd 的 Big A-Z，长达两个小时的片段，内容以 A 开头。
Sounds great.
听起来很棒。
Joe Boyd, thank you very much.
乔·博伊德，非常感谢你。
Pleasure.
乐趣。