Joanne Paul on Thomas More and the Tudor World (Ep. 281)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m chatting with Joanne Paul.
今天我正在和乔安妮·保罗聊天。
She’s a historian, popular writer, and broadcaster, prominent on YouTube, and she’s affiliated with the University of Sussex.
她是一位历史学家、受欢迎的作家和广播员，在 YouTube 上很出名，并且隶属于苏塞克斯大学。
She’s an expert in the Renaissance and early modern periods, and I very much enjoyed her latest book called Thomas More: A Life, which is on sale now.
她是文艺复兴时期和近代早期的专家，我非常喜欢她的最新著作《托马斯·莫尔：一生》，该书现已发售。
Joanne, welcome.
乔安妮，欢迎。
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
I have many questions.
我有很多问题。
Now, as you know, Erasmus wrote quite a bit about Thomas More, including a dedicatory letter in In Praise of Folly.
现在，如你所知，伊拉斯谟写了很多关于托马斯·莫尔的文章，包括《赞美愚蠢》中的一封献词。
If More was so dogmatic, what about him did Erasmus admire so much?
如果莫尔如此教条，那么伊拉斯谟如此钦佩他的什么呢？
More and Erasmus have a really interesting friendship.
莫尔和伊拉斯谟有着非常有趣的友谊。
It doesn’t start well.
开始并不顺利。
Erasmus is actually very put off by Thomas More at first.
事实上，伊拉斯谟一开始对托马斯·莫尔非常反感。
They meet in 1499, actually at the same time that they meet the young Prince Henry, who would become Henry VIII.
他们于 1499 年相遇，实际上，他们同时遇到了年轻的亨利王子，即后来的亨利八世。
They don’t hit it off immediately, but soon after, they’re exchanging letters, and it’s clear that Erasmus has a deep admiration for Thomas More.
他们并没有立即一拍即合，但不久之后，他们就开始书信往来，显然伊拉斯谟对托马斯·莫尔有着深深的钦佩。
It’s not always so clear that Thomas More feels the same about Erasmus.
托马斯·莫尔对伊拉斯谟的看法并不总是那么明显。
Actually, you can sometimes get a sense of a bit of annoyance from More about Erasmus.
事实上，有时你可以从《更多关于伊拉斯谟》中感受到一点烦恼。
Erasmus is a full-time occupation as a friend; he’s a bit of work.
伊拉斯谟是作为朋友的全职职业；他有点工作。
What’s he annoyed about?
他在生气什么？
He writes a lot of letters and demands a lot of letters in return.
他写了很多信，也要求很多回信。
He’s a bit of a hypochondriac.
他有点疑病症。
He’s always chasing promotion, but then doesn’t always follow up.
他总是追求晋升，但并不总是跟进。
He’s very high maintenance, I think, is what Thomas More feels about him.
我想，托马斯·莫尔对他的感觉就是他非常需要维护。
They do fall out for a number of years, not to do with anything regarding religion or the Reformation, but actually to do with the fact that Thomas More becomes Lord Chancellor.
他们确实闹翻了很多年，与宗教或宗教改革无关，但实际上与托马斯·莫尔成为大法官这一事实有关。
That he essentially gives up his career as a scholar, his reputation as a scholar, to devote himself almost entirely to the service of Henry VIII.
他基本上放弃了自己作为学者的职业和学者的声誉，几乎完全致力于为亨利八世服务。
No letters are exchanged, that we have anyway, between More and Erasmus for those years that he’s Lord Chancellor.
莫尔担任大法官期间，他和伊拉斯谟之间没有任何信件往来，至少我们有过这样的信件。
It has nothing to do really with dogmatism.
这实际上与教条主义无关。
Both are defenders of the Catholic Church.
两人都是天主教会的捍卫者。
Neither is interested in aligning with Luther, particularly.
两人都没有特别兴趣与路德结盟。
It has more to do with the choices that More makes in his public career.
这更多地与莫尔在其公共生涯中做出的选择有关。
How did More influence In Praise of Folly, Erasmus’s greatest work?
《更多》对伊拉斯谟最伟大的作品《愚人礼赞》有何影响？
Erasmus dedicates Praise of Folly to More, as you say.
正如你所说，伊拉斯谟将愚蠢礼赞献给了更多。
He may have written some of it, parts of it, while staying at Thomas More’s home.
他可能在托马斯·莫尔的家里写下了其中的一部分。
The title itself, Praise of Folly, can actually in Latin mean praise of More.
标题本身，“愚蠢的赞美”，在拉丁语中实际上意味着对更多的赞美。
More stands in some ways as that figure of wise folly that Erasmus is trying to articulate in Praise of Folly.
从某种意义上说，莫尔就是伊拉斯谟在《愚蠢赞颂》中试图阐明的明智愚蠢的形象。
I think the pair too were just very interested in satire, in using satire as almost a stick to prod the prideful and powerful with, as a way of bringing them down a bit more and really trying to point out to them how silly their pride was.
我认为这两个人也对讽刺非常感兴趣，用讽刺作为一根棍子来刺激骄傲和强大的人，作为一种让他们更加沮丧的方式，并真正试图向他们指出他们的骄傲是多么愚蠢。
Both Erasmus and More liked poking fun, liked making fun of those who they considered to be stuffed up with pride.
伊拉斯谟和莫尔都喜欢开玩笑，喜欢取笑那些他们认为充满骄傲的人。
On More’s Utopia
论莫尔的乌托邦
Do you read Thomas More’s Utopia as satire?
您将托马斯·莫尔的《乌托邦》视为讽刺作品吗？
Or Book 2, do you think he meant it?
或者第二册，你认为他是认真的吗？
“This is the actual utopia.”
“这才是真正的乌托邦。”
I think Utopia is intentionally enigmatic.
我认为乌托邦是故意神秘的。
I think it’s a riddle.
我认为这是一个谜语。
It’s a lot of different things.
有很多不同的事情。
Certainly, satire is one of those things.
当然，讽刺就是其中之一。
He is trying to poke fun.
他试图取笑。
If we take, for example, the passage about gold and precious jewels in the island of Utopia, they use gold as chamber pots.
例如，如果我们以乌托邦岛上有关黄金和贵重珠宝的段落为例，他们用黄金作为夜壶。
They use gold as chains to imprison their prisoners and their slaves.
他们用黄金作为锁链来囚禁他们的囚犯和奴隶。
Those who therefore arrive on the island of Utopia covered in jewels and gems are laughed at.
因此，那些满身珠宝到达乌托邦之岛的人会被嘲笑。
Gems are given to children to play with.
宝石是给孩子们玩的。
Those who deck themselves out in all this wealth are laughing stocks.
那些用这么多财富来装饰自己的人都是笑柄。
More is definitely doing something satirical with that, suggesting that in European courts, those who adorn themselves in such ways ought to be mocked.
莫尔肯定是在讽刺这一点，暗示在欧洲法庭上，那些以这种方式装饰自己的人应该受到嘲笑。
Why do they think that this metal gives them some sort of power or authority or status above anyone else?
为什么他们认为这种金属赋予他们某种高于其他人的权力、权威或地位？
The idea that gold chains, in particular, signify servitude, I think is something he’s specifically suggesting in the text.
我认为他在文中特别暗示了金链特别意味着奴役的想法。
That those who wear, for instance, chains of office, as he does in his famous Holbein portrait, that they are in some way enslaved by their service to the king.
例如，那些戴着官职锁链的人，就像他在著名的霍尔拜因肖像中所做的那样，他们在某种程度上被为国王服务所奴役。
Satire is certainly a big part of Utopia.
讽刺无疑是乌托邦的重要组成部分。
There are other elements of it as well, as we know.
据我们所知，其中还有其他因素。
I think he’s trying to say something very pointed about the nature of the island of Utopia, as both obviously completely fantastic, unreal, impossible, while at the same time, there’s something about Utopia that I think he’s suggesting is more real than the world that he lives in.
我认为他试图对乌托邦岛的本质说一些非常尖锐的事情，因为两者显然都是完全奇妙的、不真实的、不可能的，而与此同时，我认为他暗示乌托邦的某些东西比他所生活的世界更真实。
You think about his world, 16th-century Europe, you think of the world we live in today, it’s based a lot on artificial elements.
你想想他的世界，16世纪的欧洲，你想想我们今天生活的世界，它在很大程度上基于人造元素。
Money, totally made up.
钱，完全凑齐了。
Property, totally made up.
财产，完全是虚构的。
Social hierarchy, totally made up.
社会等级制度，完全是虚构的。
These are falsities.
这些都是谎言。
There’s nothing real or true about these things.
这些事情没有什么真实的或真实的。
These are the things that the Utopians have rejected in favor of things that are real, that are true, that actually have value.
这些是乌托邦主义者所拒绝的东西，而青睐那些真实的、真实的、真正有价值的东西。
The investment in gold, the value of gold is false, is untrue.
黄金的投资，黄金的价值是假的，是不真实的。
Whereas the Utopians value things that actually matter—virtue, food, water, clothing that is useful.
而乌托邦主义者则看重真正重要的东西——美德、食物、水、有用的衣服。
I think he’s trying to make a point about that difference between falsity and reality, that Utopia is in some sense more real than the real world itself.
我认为他试图强调虚假与现实之间的区别，即乌托邦在某种意义上比现实世界本身更真实。
The high degree of surveillance in this Utopia, is that intended as a good thing or a cautionary note, or we’re supposed to be ambivalent about it?
这个乌托邦的高度监控，是好事还是警示，还是我们应该对此感到矛盾？
Utopia is really interesting because, of course, it’s the first book to use that word, utopia.
乌托邦真的很有趣，因为当然，这是第一本使用乌托邦这个词的书。
It’s not necessarily the first utopia.
这不一定是第一个乌托邦。
We can point to some others, but it’s the first in that genre to use that name.
我们可以指出其他一些，但它是该类型中第一个使用该名称的。
We’re so used now to dystopias undermining the very concept of utopia.
我们现在已经习惯了破坏乌托邦概念的反乌托邦。
We live in a post-enlightenment liberal world where individual rights, individuality is so important to us that we can’t look at a utopia like More’s without seeing the darker elements of it.
我们生活在一个后启蒙时代的自由世界，个人权利、个性对我们来说是如此重要，以至于我们在看到莫尔这样的乌托邦时，不能不看到其中的黑暗元素。
I don’t think most of those dark elements that we see today were intended by More.
我不认为我们今天看到的大部分黑暗元素都是莫尔有意为之。
I think that there are some that we can point to.
我认为有一些我们可以指出的。
I think the Utopian’s attitude to war, their attitude to slavery, we could definitely question.
我认为乌托邦人对战争的态度，他们对奴隶制的态度，我们绝对可以质疑。
In terms of surveillance and in terms of individuality, those were not things that More was that concerned with.
至于监视和个性，这些都不是莫尔关心的事情。
I think that comes out of a much more post-enlightenment and indeed post-20th century perspective that we really hone in on those.
我认为这是来自于我们真正关注的后启蒙运动乃至后 20 世纪的视角。
If anything, More was really troubled by the concept of individuality.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是莫尔确实对个性的概念感到困扰。
He saw pride in that, the sin of pride.
他从中看到了骄傲，骄傲的罪恶。
Utopia in many ways is about forgetting, letting go of what is private, what is ours, what can be demarcated as ours, and instead emphasizing the public and what can be shared.
乌托邦在很多方面都是关于忘记、放弃什么是私人的、什么是我们的、什么是可以划定为我们的，而是强调公共和可以共享的东西。
That’s why there is no private property in Utopia.
这就是为什么乌托邦没有私有财产。
Why is the story told through the third-party narration of Raphael?
为什么故事是通过拉斐尔的第三方叙述来讲述的？
There’s even multiple layers of narrative between More and Raphael, right?
莫尔和拉斐尔之间甚至还有多层叙述，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
Here we dig into the riddle and the enigma that is Utopia because Book 2 of Utopia, which describes the island, is, as you say, narrated by Raphael Hythloday, whose name can mean all sorts of things.
在这里，我们深入探讨乌托邦的谜语和谜团，因为描述乌托邦的第二卷，正如你所说，是由拉斐尔·希斯洛迪（Raphael Hythloday）讲述的，他的名字可以意味着各种各样的东西。
It could mean peddler of nonsense.
这可能意味着胡言乱语的小贩。
It could mean someone who’s actually pointing out nonsense and letting us know where we need to be aware of nonsense happening.
这可能意味着有人实际上指出了无稽之谈，并让我们知道我们需要注意哪些地方发生了无意义的事情。
That way, we take him a little bit more seriously.
这样，我们就会更加认真地对待他。
Raphael, of course, an archangel, so maybe we should be taking what he’s saying at face value.
拉斐尔，当然，一位大天使，所以也许我们应该相信他所说的话。
That’s Book 2, and that’s that long description of the island.
这是第二本书，这是对该岛的详细描述。
Then around that, there’s Book 1 and another framing at the end, which puts the book within a discussion between Raphael and the character of Thomas More.
然后围绕着这一点，有第一本书和最后的另一个框架，这使得这本书处于拉斐尔和托马斯·莫尔这个角色之间的讨论之中。
This is set up to really get us, I think, to question who the authority in the text really is.
我认为，这样做的目的是真正让我们质疑文本中的权威到底是谁。
Raphael only comes to the description of Utopia because of a debate that he’s having with this character of Thomas More about whether one, as an educated, experienced person, ought to give their advice, their service to a king, to a prince.
拉斐尔之所以对乌托邦进行描述，是因为他与托马斯·莫尔这个角色进行了一场辩论，即一个受过教育、经验丰富的人是否应该向国王、王子提供建议和服务。
There’s all sorts of other satires and criticisms and things that happen in that conversation.
在那次谈话中还发生了各种各样的其他讽刺和批评以及其他事情。
They really turn to the description of the island of Utopia as an example of a place where one could give counsel because there is no pride, because there is no greed, because there is no social hierarchy, and so on.
他们确实将乌托邦岛的描述作为一个例子，在那里人们可以提供建议，因为没有骄傲，因为没有贪婪，因为没有社会等级制度等等。
It’s framed within this larger discussion.
它是在这个更大的讨论中框架的。
Thomas More comes back at the end, after the description of Utopia, to say, well, this could never, ever happen.
在描述了乌托邦之后，托马斯·莫尔在最后回来说，好吧，这永远不会发生。
The institutions upon which Utopia is based, I might wish, but would never expect to see in the world around me.
我可能希望但从未期望在我周围的世界中看到乌托邦所依据的机构。
It really leaves the reader with a question about what they ought to be taking from Utopia.
这确实给读者留下了一个问题：他们应该从乌托邦中得到什么。
I think that’s part of why the text is still being discussed 500 years later, is because it is a puzzle.
我认为这就是为什么 500 年后该文本仍然被讨论的部分原因，因为它是一个谜题。
I think there are elements of it we can solve.
我认为我们可以解决其中的一些问题。
I’ve done my best to.
我已经尽力了。
Really, it’s left very much to the reader to decide what the lessons of Utopia really are.
事实上，乌托邦的教训到底是什么，很大程度上由读者来决定。
On whether More should be admired
关于莫尔是否应该被钦佩
As you point out in the book, and you’re well aware, he oversaw the persecution of heretics.
正如你在书中指出的，你也很清楚，他监督了对异端的迫害。
He oversaw torture.
他监督酷刑。
He was misogynistic when he wrote about women.
当他写关于女性的文章时，他是厌恶女性的。
Was he just a bad guy?
他只是一个坏人吗？
Is that the correct picture of More, or am I supposed to admire him?
这是莫尔的真实写照吗？还是我应该钦佩他？
He took a stand on principle, and he died, but what was the principle, really?
他坚持原则，然后就死了，但原则到底是什么？
To defend Catholicism, which then was also an instrument of torture?
为了捍卫当时也是酷刑工具的天主教？
As a historian, I take one of my principles as to not try to put people into a box of good or evil.
作为一名历史学家，我的原则之一就是不要试图将人们放入善恶的盒子里。
I’m not a historian.
我不是历史学家。
Should I just dislike him?
难道我就该不喜欢他吗？
No, I think you should be interested in these contradictions.
不，我想你应该对这些矛盾感兴趣。
I think you should be interested in the complexity that is the human experience.
我认为你应该对人类体验的复杂性感兴趣。
I think we should ask questions about why someone who is clearly very educated, clearly very intelligent, clearly very worldly in many ways, has also these beliefs that we rightly and should condemn.
我认为我们应该问这样一个问题：为什么一个显然受过良好教育、显然非常聪明、在许多方面非常世俗的人，也有这些我们正确且应该谴责的信念。
With Thomas More, I think he comes to these beliefs out of a place of fear.
对于托马斯·莫尔来说，我认为他是出于恐惧而形成这些信念的。
I think that’s something that we should take note of.
我认为这是我们应该注意的事情。
He was afraid of what he would consider the Lutheran heresy.
他害怕他所认为的路德教异端。
He was afraid of how it would lead to the breakdown of his society, and he was convinced by those people who held that to be the case.
他担心这会导致他的社会崩溃，而那些认为情况确实如此的人也说服了他。
I think that there are important lessons in that for us today, the way that we can become convinced that a group will lead to the breakdown of our society, that fear can lead to that hatred and indeed that violence.
我认为这对我们今天来说有重要的教训，我们可以相信一个团体将导致我们社会的崩溃，恐惧会导致仇恨甚至暴力。
I think that’s an important lesson.
我认为这是一个重要的教训。
If we just reject, oh, he was bad, then I don’t think we understand the way in which someone like Thomas More can become convinced that way.
如果我们只是拒绝，哦，他很糟糕，那么我认为我们无法理解像托马斯·莫尔这样的人是如何变得如此确信的。
In terms of his role in opposing heresy, yes, he advocated for the persecution of heretics.
从他反邪教的作用来看，是的，他主张迫害异端。
He thought it was right and just that they were burned at the stake.
他认为他们被烧死在火刑柱上是正确的。
I think that at times his role in that has been overstated, and I think we just need to understand what it was in historical reality.
我认为有时他在其中的作用被夸大了，我认为我们只需要了解历史现实中的情况。
He imprisoned heretics.
他监禁异教徒。
He interrogated them.
他审问了他们。
We don’t know if he tortured them.
我们不知道他是否折磨过他们。
That was something he was accused of at the time.
这就是他当时被指控的事情。
He said he didn’t.
他说他没有。
I don’t know that we’ll ever find evidence either way on that.
我不知道我们是否能找到这方面的证据。
There were three cases that he oversaw as Lord Chancellor of those who were burned at the stake.
作为大法官，他监督了三起被烧死在火刑柱上的案件。
I only say that because I see on social media and the like and people presenting me with the suggestion that hundreds were put to the flames by Thomas More personally.
我这么说只是因为我在社交媒体等上看到人们向我提出建议，托马斯·莫尔亲自焚烧了数百人。
I just think we have to understand what it is that we are actually talking about.
我只是认为我们必须了解我们实际上在谈论什么。
On play and movie adaptations of More
论《更多》的戏剧和电影改编
Have you ever been to the Frick Museum and seen the Holbein portrait of More?
您去过弗里克博物馆并看过霍尔拜因的莫尔肖像吗？
Yes.
是的。
What makes it so compelling?
是什么让它如此引人注目？
I think it’s partly so compelling because Holbein was a friend of Thomas More’s.
我认为这之所以如此引人注目，部分原因是霍尔拜因是托马斯·莫尔的朋友。
He knew him.
他认识他。
He knew him intimately.
他很了解他。
He was living at Chelsea when he did that portrait.
当他拍摄那幅肖像时，他住在切尔西。
You can see the level of detail that he gives Thomas More.
你可以看到他给托马斯·莫尔的详细程度。
You can see the individual little hairs on his chin.
你可以看到他下巴上的一根根小毛发。
You can see the twinkle in his eye.
你可以看到他眼中闪烁的光芒。
This is someone who knew More very, very well and respected him.
这是一个非常非常了解莫尔并且尊敬他的人。
I think it is useful to contrast, as the Frick does, More’s portrait by Holbein with the one he does of Cromwell, which lacks, I think, that intimacy and that connection with the man himself.
我认为，像弗里克所做的那样，将霍尔拜因的莫尔肖像与他为克伦威尔所做的肖像进行对比是有用的，我认为后者缺乏与克伦威尔本人的亲密感和联系。
There’s something pallid about his presentation of Cromwell as opposed to More.
他对克伦威尔的描述与莫尔的描述相比有些苍白。
I think the other thing that makes it so compelling is that we have not only that portrait of More by Holbein, but we have the family portrait as well.
我认为使它如此引人注目的另一件事是我们不仅有霍尔拜因的莫尔肖像，还有全家福。
We don’t have Holbein’s original of that.
我们没有霍尔拜因的原件。
We have his original sketch and then a later copy, but we are able to see More in the context of his larger family, especially the women of his family are given a very strong role in that family portrait.
我们有他的原始草图和后来的副本，但我们能够在他的大家庭背景下看到更多，特别是他家庭中的女性在全家福中扮演着非常重要的角色。
It’s a very unique portrait for the time.
这是当时非常独特的肖像。
We don’t get many presentations of Tudor figures in that sort of setting.
在这种背景下，我们很少看到都铎王朝人物的展示。
A Man for All Seasons.
四季皆宜的男人。
It’s a famous movie.
这是一部著名的电影。
It’s a portrait of More.
这是莫尔的肖像。
What’s the main bias in that film?
那部电影的主要偏见是什么？
Robert Bolt in Man for All Seasons, the play, and then the film, needed a figure who would stand for certain principles that were important to Bolt and his time.
罗伯特·博尔特在《四季皆宜》、戏剧和电影中都需要一个能够代表对博尔特和他的时代来说很重要的某些原则的人物。
They included freedom of conscience, in particular, a willingness to stand against an oppressive state.
它们包括良心自由，特别是反对压迫国家的意愿。
Bolt, personally, was very interested in those things.
博尔特个人对这些事情非常感兴趣。
The refusal to swear to the act of succession and the act of supremacy, he found those principles in More.
拒绝发誓继承行为和至高无上的行为，他在莫尔身上找到了这些原则。
More himself would not have advocated for those.
更多他本人也不会提倡这些。
As I said, he’s someone who actually is very worried about this idea of individual authority and individual conscience.
正如我所说，他实际上是一个非常担心个人权威和个人良心观念的人。
That is his complaint, his criticism, his worry about Lutheranism.
这就是他对路德教的抱怨、批评和担忧。
The More that is presented in Man for All Seasons is very detached from the historical More.
《四季皆宜》中所呈现的“更多”与历史上的“更多”非常脱节。
We can see it in that famous line, “It’s not because I believe it, it’s because I believe it.” That’s something entirely contrary to anything More himself stood for.
我们可以从那句名言中看到这一点：“不是因为我相信它，而是因为我相信它。”这与莫尔本人所主张的一切完全相反。
Let’s say you’re recasting that movie today.
假设您今天要重新选角那部电影。
Who is it you pick to play Sir Thomas More?
您选择谁来扮演托马斯·莫尔爵士？
I get asked this all the time and I don’t have a good answer.
我总是被问到这个问题，但我没有一个好的答案。
I really don’t know.
我真的不知道。
It’s hard to recast Paul Scofield.
重塑保罗·斯科菲尔德很难。
I don’t have an answer for that.
我对此没有答案。
I’d just go watch the film again, frankly.
坦白说，我只想再去看一遍这部电影。
How about Benedict Cumberbatch?
本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇呢？
Yes, I could see him.
是的，我可以看到他。
He has been suggested before.
之前就有人建议过他。
People have suggested to me James McAvoy.
人们向我推荐了詹姆斯·麦卡沃伊。
I think they have played figures like More in many ways before.
我认为他们以前在很多方面都扮演过莫尔这样的人物。
Sure, I’d probably watch that.
当然，我可能会看。
In general, when history is portrayed in movies, what’s the biggest general bias that you feel?
一般来说，当电影描绘历史时，您感受到的最大的普遍偏见是什么？
The people are too heroic or characters are too simple or what goes wrong?
人物太英雄，人物太简单，还是出了什么问题？
I think there is a temptation always to paint figures as heroes or villains, as has been done with Thomas More.
我认为总是有一种诱惑，把人物描绘成英雄或恶棍，就像托马斯·莫尔所做的那样。
He’s a hero in Man for All Seasons.
他是《四季皆宜》中的英雄。
He’s basically a villain in Wolf Hall.
他基本上是狼厅里的一个恶棍。
We lose some of that complexity of a contradictory, complex human individual.
我们失去了一些矛盾的、复杂的人类个体的复杂性。
Of course, there’s a desire to sex things up and to make things more both sexy and violent than they necessarily were.
当然，人们渴望让事物变得性感，让事物变得比实际情况更加性感和暴力。
I think this desire to smooth over complexity, again, we look at someone like Thomas More as opposed to Cromwell, it seems always the case that one has to be good and the other has to be conniving and cunning and a little bit mean.
我认为这种消除复杂性的愿望，再次，我们看到像托马斯·莫尔这样的人而不是克伦威尔，似乎总是这样一个人必须善良，而另一个人必须纵容、狡猾并且有点卑鄙。
Man for All Seasons, it’s More as the hero, Cromwell as the villain.
《四季皆宜》，更多是英雄，克伦威尔是反派。
That’s swapped in Wolf Hall.
那是在狼厅交换的。
Whereas actually, they had known each other for decades before the conflicts of the 1530s.
事实上，在 1530 年代的冲突发生之前，他们就已经认识数十年了。
They had more in common than I think those productions show us.
他们的共同点比我认为这些作品向我们展示的要多。
I think there’s more of a mix of what we would admire and what we would condemn in each of them.
我认为他们中的每一个都更多地混合了我们所钦佩的和我们所谴责的。
How did it matter that the Tudors were Welsh?
都铎王朝是威尔士人有什么关系？
Well, in a couple of different ways, it matters that the Tudors were Welsh.
好吧，从几个不同的方面来看，都铎王朝是威尔士人这一点很重要。
Partly, it’s to do with the precarity of the Tudor dynasty.
部分原因在于都铎王朝的不稳定。
They didn’t have a very strong claim to the throne, and their roots were used against them.
他们对王位的要求并不强烈，而且他们的根源也被用来对付他们。
Certainly, before he’s Henry VII, when he’s making waves in Europe and threatening invasion and stuff, Richard III calls him Henry Tydder, as, I think, a way of undermining him as a leader to whom people might flock, making fun of this very Welsh name that he has.
当然，在他成为亨利七世之前，当他在欧洲掀起波澜并威胁入侵之类的时候，理查三世称他为亨利·泰德，我认为，这是削弱他作为人们可能蜂拥而至的领导者的一种方式，取笑他这个非常威尔士的名字。
It’s certainly the case, and some very good work has been done on this, that they didn’t use the name Tudor in the Tudor period.
确实如此，并且在这方面已经做了一些非常好的工作，他们在都铎时期没有使用都铎这个名字。
That’s us doing that.
我们就是这么做的。
That was something of which they were ashamed and didn’t make reference to.
这是他们感到羞耻并且没有提及的事情。
Henry was known as Henry of Richmond before he became Henry VII, and there wasn’t the sense of a Tudor dynasty, this name, until much, much, much later.
亨利在成为亨利七世之前被称为里士满的亨利，直到很久很久以后，这个名字才具有都铎王朝的感觉。
That’s something we impose on them.
这是我们强加给他们的。
On English Catholicism as the Reformation approaches
论宗教改革临近时的英国天主教
As the Reformation is approaching, in England with the common people, is Catholicism declining in popularity, or it’s just the same?
随着宗教改革的临近，在英国民众中，天主教的受欢迎程度是在下降，还是一样？
Is there any great outcry for getting rid of the church?
是否有人强烈要求废除教会？
That’s a really interesting question because you framed it as if it’s something that is popular or not popular, that’s something they can accept or reject.
这是一个非常有趣的问题，因为你将它描述为流行或不流行的东西，这是他们可以接受或拒绝的东西。
It’s not framed in that sense.
它不是这个意义上的框架。
You are a Catholic.
你是天主教徒。
They could hate the church courts or not hate the church courts, right?
他们可以讨厌教会法庭，也可以不讨厌教会法庭，对吧？
Even if they have no power.
即使他们没有权力。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
They did often criticize Thomas More as someone who criticized elements of the church.
他们确实经常批评托马斯·莫尔是批评教会元素的人。
There were certainly heretics known as Lollards.
当然有被称为罗拉德派的异端分子。
They didn’t think of themselves as heretics, of course, but they were treated as heretics.
当然，他们并不认为自己是异端，但他们却被当作异端对待。
Sorry?
对不起？
In a funny way, they’re Catholics still.
有趣的是，他们仍然是天主教徒。
They’re still Catholics, absolutely.
他们绝对仍然是天主教徒。
Any attempt to change, reform, criticize the church is very much from within.
任何改变、改革、批评教会的尝试都来自内部。
Thomas More was a huge critic of the church, huge critic of the church, as was Erasmus, to the point where when Luther starts publishing his criticisms of the church, people think they’re actually coming from Erasmus.
托马斯·莫尔（Thomas More）是教会的巨大批评者，教会的巨大批评者，就像伊拉斯谟一样，以至于当路德开始发表他对教会的批评时，人们认为他们实际上来自伊拉斯谟。
They think Erasmus and Luther are the same person because Erasmus had articulated such harsh criticisms of the church.
他们认为伊拉斯谟和路德是同一个人，因为伊拉斯谟曾对教会提出过如此严厉的批评。
There was no question in the minds of most of these reformers that change had to happen inside the church.
在大多数改革者的心目中，毫无疑问变革必须在教会内部发生。
There was no other option than that.
除此之外，别无选择。
That’s part of what More was so concerned about in the Reformation, was this idea of a fragmenting.
这就是莫尔在宗教改革中如此关心的部分，那就是分裂的想法。
He was interested in the unity of the church, the community of the church.
他对教会的合一、教会的共同体感兴趣。
The idea that that the church might fragment was terrifying to him and indeed for many in the period.
教会可能分裂的想法让他感到恐惧，事实上对那个时期的许多人来说也是如此。
It wasn’t something that you decided to pick up or not.
这不是你决定接受或不接受的东西。
You were a Catholic.
你是天主教徒。
Say, when he’s executed, are people upset or they’re just like, “Whatever.
比如说，当他被处决时，人们会感到不安还是只是说，“随便吧。
Next”?
下一个”？
There’s a lot of upset when Thomas More is executed, and Henry VIII knows that that’s going to be the case.
当托马斯·莫尔被处决时，人们感到非常不安，亨利八世知道情况将会如此。
They’re very aware when they’re trying to pressure Thomas More into accepting the supremacy of Henry VIII as head of the church that people are watching within England and beyond.
当他们试图迫使托马斯·莫尔接受亨利八世作为教会领袖的至高无上的地位时，他们非常清楚，英格兰内外的人们都在关注这一点。
In many ways, it’s a bit of a PR disaster that they’re not able to get him to submit.
从很多方面来说，他们无法让他提交，这有点像一场公关灾难。
There are attempts from some, such as the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer, to say, “Well, what if we just get him to agree to part of it?
有些人，例如坎特伯雷大主教托马斯·克兰麦，试图说：“好吧，如果我们让他同意部分内容怎么办？
Then other people might get in line and people will see that and see that he’s acquiescing.”
然后其他人可能会排队，人们会看到这一点并看到他在默许。”
Then the concern is that they’ll see that they’re compromising.
然后担心的是他们会发现自己正在妥协。
There’s this awareness of people watching.
人们有这种观看的意识。
Certainly when he’s executed, even the scheduling of that, they want to make sure it doesn’t happen on a feast marking the birth of Thomas Becket because of those parallels between Thomas More and a king named Henry and Thomas Becket and a king named Henry.
当然，当他被处决时，甚至是安排时间，他们希望确保它不会发生在纪念托马斯·贝克特诞生的盛宴上，因为托马斯·莫尔和一位名叫亨利的国王以及托马斯·贝克特和一位名叫亨利的国王之间有相似之处。
They’re very conscious of the fact that it is a controversial thing to do.
他们非常清楚这是一件有争议的事情。
Most people are upset by the idea that Henry VIII, that Cromwell, that this regime would hound Thomas More to his death.
大多数人都对亨利八世、克伦威尔这个政权会追杀托马斯·莫尔的想法感到不安。
On Shakespeare and the growth of education
论莎士比亚与教育的发展
Shakespeare obviously is coming much later in the 16th century and spanning early into the 17th.
莎士比亚的出现显然要晚得多，从 16 世纪开始，一直持续到 17 世纪初期。
How is it that Shakespeare became so smart and insightful?
莎士比亚为何变得如此聪明和富有洞察力？
What precursors are there in the era you specialize in?
您所研究的时代有哪些先兆？
Do you see it coming at all?
你看到它来了吗？
I’m certainly not going to say that Shakespeare was too smart to have existed.
我当然不会说莎士比亚太聪明了，不可能存在。
We know he existed.
我们知道他存在。
I’m not going to sit here and say it was the Earl of Essex or something like that, or the Earl of Oxford.
我不会坐在这里说是埃塞克斯伯爵或类似的人，或者牛津伯爵。
It’s the Earl of Oxford, isn’t it?
这是牛津伯爵，不是吗？
It’s still the same puzzle.
仍然是同样的谜题。
Someone became that smart, right?
有人变得这么聪明了，对吧？
Exactly.
确切地。
Yes.
是的。
Throughout the 16th century, there’s a real growth, an explosion, really, in education, certainly in literacy at the most basic level.
整个 16 世纪，教育、尤其是最基本的识字率确实出现了真正的增长和爆炸。
That’s partly coming out of, well, two movements: the humanist movement, of which Thomas More was a part, that argued for wider accessibility of education.
这在一定程度上源于两个运动：托马斯·莫尔参与的人文主义运动，主张更广泛的教育机会。
Thomas More even advocated for the education of girls, women.
托马斯·莫尔甚至提倡女孩和妇女的教育。
But also the Reformation, which in many ways came out of that movement, arguing that people needed to be literate in order to read scripture.
还有宗教改革，它在很多方面都源于该运动，认为人们需要识字才能阅读经文。
We see a growth in grammar schools, particularly free grammar schools.
我们看到文法学校，尤其是免费文法学校的增长。
Thomas More, when he was a child, went to the only free grammar school in London.
托马斯·莫尔小时候就读于伦敦唯一的免费文法学校。
That’s not the case decades later, there are others.
几十年后情况并非如此，还有其他情况。
Really, these schools were nominally designed to help children, largely boys, exclusively boys in the schools themselves, to learn Latin grammar.
事实上，这些学校名义上是为了帮助儿童（主要是男孩，而且完全是学校里的男孩）学习拉丁语语法而设计的。
That’s why they’re grammar schools.
这就是为什么他们是文法学校。
They did so by reading Latin texts.
他们通过阅读拉丁文本来做到这一点。
Boys would be introduced to writers such as Cicero, Ovid, and so on, and introduced to these stories and these structures for telling stories.
男孩们会被介绍给西塞罗、奥维德等作家，并介绍这些故事和这些讲故事的结构。
They were introduced to rhetoric.
他们开始接触修辞学。
We can see Shakespeare using these tools in telling his stories, in writing his soliloquies, in writing his poetry.
我们可以看到莎士比亚在讲述他的故事、写他的独白、写他的诗歌时使用这些工具。
It’s very neoclassical in what he’s doing.
他所做的事情非常新古典主义。
It’s because of this growth in education through the 16th century.
这是因为 16 世纪教育的发展。
What precursors of the scientific revolution do you see, other than education?
除了教育之外，您还看到哪些科学革命的先驱？
That’s coming in the 17th century.
这将在 17 世纪到来。
Is there more emphasis on calculation or measurement or accounting?
更强调计算、测量还是会计？
What are the roots in the Tudor period?
都铎时期的根源是什么？
A lot of that comes from the Renaissance, as indeed humanism does.
其中很多来自文艺复兴时期，人文主义确实如此。
There’s this reintroduction of a lot of classical texts, an advocacy for reading these classical texts, particularly Greek texts and learning Greek.
重新引入许多古典文本，提倡阅读这些古典文本，特别是希腊文本并学习希腊语。
A lot of it is coming from an engagement with Greek mathematics and science.
其中很大一部分来自于对希腊数学和科学的参与。
The other thing, and this is something I really emphasize when I’m teaching the scientific revolution with my students, is that we have to remember that the scientific revolution isn’t this grand triumph of science over religion or mysticism or what have you, that these two things very much go hand in hand through the 16th and into the 17th century.
另一件事，也是我在向学生讲授科学革命时真正强调的一点是，我们必须记住，科学革命并不是科学对宗教或神秘主义或其他什么的伟大胜利，这两件事在整个 16 世纪和 17 世纪密切相关。
The scientific method, for instance, comes from alchemy, which we might think of as an occult science.
例如，科学方法来自炼金术，我们可能将其视为一门神秘科学。
The methodology for scientific experimentation comes out of this desire to find the philosopher’s stone.
科学实验的方法论源于这种寻找点金石的愿望。
Someone like John Dee is this polymath, as well as this occultist, Francis Bacon, has his interests in these sort of mystical elements as well.
像约翰·迪伊这样的人是一位博学者，而这位神秘学家弗朗西斯·培根也对这些神秘元素感兴趣。
The growth and interest in what we might think of as mystical texts, a lot of them having to do with Judaism, as well as these Greek texts, comes together to form, I think, something that looks like the foundations of the scientific revolution.
我认为，人们对神秘文本（其中很多与犹太教有关）的增长和兴趣，以及这些希腊文本，共同形成了看起来像是科学革命的基础。
On the quality of Tudor art
论都铎艺术的品质
There’s so many wonderful things going on, or at least starting in England at the time, but the visual arts seem quite backward.
有很多美妙的事情正在发生，或者至少在当时的英国开始，但视觉艺术似乎相当落后。
Holbein is wonderful, but he’s from the continent.
霍尔拜因很棒，但他来自非洲大陆。
Why aren’t the visual arts more advanced?
为什么视觉艺术没有更先进？
I’m not an expert in this.
我不是这方面的专家。
There’s a fantastic book that’s just come out on Tudor art.
有一本关于都铎艺术的精彩书籍刚刚出版。
I’d recommend people go and have a look at that.
我建议人们去看看。
Yes, Holbein’s naturalism, realism is unmatched at the time.
是的，霍尔拜因的自然主义、现实主义在当时是无与伦比的。
I think they do look to Italy, to the continents, to Germany, to the Netherlands for Renaissance art, for the developments that are happening at the time.
我认为他们确实向意大利、各大洲、德国、荷兰寻求文艺复兴艺术，以及当时正在发生的发展。
We don’t see the same support for homegrown art in England at the time.
当时，我们在英国没有看到对本土艺术的同样支持。
There are artists who are trying it.
有艺术家正在尝试。
I think there’s just this idea that it’s no good unless it’s from the continents.
我认为有一种观点认为，除非来自大陆，否则就没啥好处。
That book just convinced me how poorly England was doing.
那本书让我确信英格兰的表现有多么糟糕。
I did buy that book.
我确实买了那本书。
There you go.
就这样吧。
Handcrafted items might be good, but something like painting just seems low quality, and I don’t understand why.
手工制作的东西可能不错，但像绘画这样的东西看起来质量很差，我不明白为什么。
I’m not sure why either.
我也不知道为什么。
She is the expert on these things.
她是这些事情的专家。
If the book doesn’t have an answer, I’m not sure I do.
如果这本书没有答案，我也不确定自己是否有答案。
On tolerance and social mobility in 16th century England
论16世纪英国的宽容和社会流动性
If you accept the premise, why did antisemitism rise so much in the 16th century in England?
如果你接受这个前提，为什么反犹太主义在 16 世纪的英国如此高涨？
In general, it seems that happened during the Renaissance, right?
总的来说，这似乎发生在文艺复兴时期，对吗？
Maybe something about larger state structures, more discourse, greater need for victims, higher volatility.
也许是因为更大的国家结构、更多的话语、对受害者的更大需求、更高的波动性。
Do you have an intuition?
你有直觉吗？
I have some sense of this.
我对此有一些感觉。
This is not something I’ve spent much time on.
这不是我花太多时间的事情。
I know in terms of a more European-wide trend, a lot of it has to do with the Inquisition, with the Reformation, with a desire to isolate and eliminate any heterodoxy, anything that isn’t in conformity with the Catholic Church.
我知道，就欧洲范围内的趋势而言，很大程度上与宗教裁判所、宗教改革有关，与孤立和消除任何异端、任何不符合天主教会的事物的愿望有关。
Especially, of course, we can look at the Iberian Peninsula and the desire to reconquer the entirety of the Iberian Peninsula for Catholicism to reject anything that looks like a questioning of the Church.
当然，特别是我们可以看看伊比利亚半岛，以及天主教重新征服整个伊比利亚半岛的愿望，以拒绝任何看起来像是对教会的质疑。
It’s not something I’ve spent extensive time on.
这不是我花费大量时间的事情。
How much Islam is there in England then?
那么英国有多少伊斯兰教呢？
Is it a few visitors?
游客少吗？
Is it anyone?
有人吗？
Can you show up?
你能出现吗？
Does someone whack you in the face?
有人打你的脸吗？
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
The distances are not that great, right?
距离并没有那么远，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
I don’t think you’re going to find that many people in England at the time who are openly professing to be Muslim.
我认为当时在英国不会有那么多人公开自称是穆斯林。
Of course, there is a number of people who have Moorish ancestry, and we know that.
当然，我们知道有很多人有摩尔人血统。
Again, there’s been some very good work on that in recent years.
同样，近年来在这方面已经有了一些非常好的工作。
There is an academic interest, again, in Hebrew, in Hebrew scholarship, as well as in Islamic texts.
同样，对希伯来语、希伯来学术以及伊斯兰文本也有学术兴趣。
We see, of course, that a lot of ancient knowledge of which they’re very interested in the period is transported, in some sense, through Islamic scholarship in the early Middle Ages.
当然，我们看到，他们对该时期非常感兴趣的许多古代知识在某种意义上是通过中世纪早期的伊斯兰学术传播的。
It’s not until you get into the late 16th century that you’re having, for instance, visitors from Persia or ambassadors who are going over in that sense.
直到进入 16 世纪末，才会有来自波斯的访客或从这个意义上来说过来的大使。
We’re not seeing that in the early 16th century.
我们在 16 世纪初并没有看到这种情况。
Say I’m in Morocco and I take a boat to England and I step off the boat, am I noticed?
假设我在摩洛哥，乘船去英国，然后我下了船，我注意到了吗？
Is the treatment hostile?
待遇是否充满敌意？
Does anyone care?
有人关心吗？
Am I a huge novelty?
我是一个巨大的新奇事物吗？
It probably depends on who you are.
这可能取决于你是谁。
Certainly, it would be something novel.
当然，这将是一件新奇的事情。
It depends on who you are.
这取决于你是谁。
Racism in the 16th century was different to our modern scientific racism.
16世纪的种族主义与现代科学种族主义不同。
That’s not to say that there wasn’t racism.
这并不是说不存在种族主义。
Thomas More is often held accountable for the racist sentiments that he expresses in some of his works and letters, for instance.
例如，托马斯·莫尔经常因他在一些作品和信件中表达的种族主义情绪而被追究责任。
It functions slightly differently to our racism today.
它的作用与我们今天的种族主义略有不同。
There was a sense in which one’s social status could, in some sense, transcend one’s race.
从某种意义上说，一个人的社会地位可以超越一个人的种族。
Famously in Italy, of course, there’s a duke who was Black.
当然，在意大利，有一位著名的黑人公爵。
There were other examples in England.
英国还有其他例子。
One of the trumpeters in Henry VII’s court was Black.
亨利七世宫廷中的号手之一是布莱克。
That didn’t automatically mean that you were part of some sort of subclass or that you were excluded on the basis of the color of your skin, but it would have been noted and people would have considered it potentially to have expressed something about one’s character, for instance.
这并不自动意味着你是某种子类的一部分，或者你因肤色而被排除在外，但它会被注意到，人们会认为它可能表达了一些关于一个人性格的信息，例如。
It was associated often with a sort of moral darkness that was reflected in your skin.
它常常与反映在你的皮肤上的道德黑暗联系在一起。
There’s a lot of upward mobility back then, isn’t there?
那时有很多向上流动的机会，不是吗？
Cranmer, Cromwell, they’re not from wealthy families.
克兰麦、克伦威尔，他们都不是来自富裕家庭。
Other than being a woman, what was it that ruled you out of advancing?
除了身为女性之外，还有什么因素阻碍了你的进步？
Yes, there is a lot of social mobility in the Tudor periods.
是的，都铎时期有很多社会流动性。
That comes thanks to Henry VII, who had this strategy, essentially, of employing capable administrators, smart, smart men from lower backgrounds in these roles in government largely as a way of keeping the nobility down and also having this class of bureaucrat that was essentially disposable, that he didn’t have to worry about people getting upset if he tore them down.
这要归功于亨利七世，他的战略本质上是雇用有能力的行政人员，来自较低背景的聪明人，在政府中担任这些职务，这主要是为了压制贵族，同时也拥有这样一个基本上可以随意处置的官僚阶层，这样他就不必担心如果他推翻他们，人们会感到不安。
Of course, Henry VIII does the same thing.
当然，亨利八世也做了同样的事情。
Very few of the people that we might mention survive very long in the Tudor courts.
我们可能提到的人中很少有人能在都铎宫廷中存活很长时间。
There are people he can lift up and eliminate as he needs.
他可以根据需要提拔和消灭一些人。
You still needed, though, to have an education.
不过，你仍然需要接受教育。
Without that education, you couldn’t be useful in the way that More, Cromwell, Cramner were, Wolsey was.
如果没有这种教育，你就不可能像莫尔、克伦威尔、克拉姆纳、沃尔西那样有用。
That was essential.
这是至关重要的。
You needed Latin, some understanding of the law.
你需要拉丁语，以及对法律的一些了解。
Yes, not being a woman certainly helps.
是的，不是女性肯定有帮助。
Women did have positions of great power and authority, and some indeed were scholars and artists and everything else, but that was rare, the exception, rather than the rule.
女性确实拥有巨大权力和权威的职位，有些确实是学者、艺术家和其他一切，但这种情况很少见，是例外，而不是规则。
Women were not considered able to reason, to have prudence, to control themselves emotionally, and were excluded from formal governance.
妇女被认为没有能力推理、谨慎、控制自己的情绪，并且被排除在正式治理之外。
I say formal there because it’s worth noting that what we see in the 16th century is an increasing formalization of positions.
我在这里说正式是因为值得注意的是，我们在 16 世纪看到的是立场日益正式化。
Moving from late medieval into what we can properly call early modern, we see the exclusion of women as things become more formalized, more institutionalized.
从中世纪晚期进入我们可以恰当地称为现代早期的时期，随着事情变得更加正式、更加制度化，我们看到女性被排除在外。
They’re there more strongly, more powerfully as a presence before things become very institutionalized.
在事情变得非常制度化之前，他们的存在会更加强烈、更加有力。
On London's governance
论伦敦的治理
You’ve written a lot about the monarchy, but just the City of London, how is that governed?
你写了很多关于君主制的文章，但只有伦敦金融城是如何治理的？
Is it the monarch also in charge, or there’s a council, there’s a mayor?
是君主也负责，还是有一个议会，有一个市长？
What happens there?
那里会发生什么？
That is a point of contention throughout the 16th century.
这是整个 16 世纪争论的焦点。
The City of London has a mayor then as it does now.
伦敦金融城当时和现在一样有一位市长。
There’s a court aldermen.
有一名法院市议员。
Not elected, right?
没当选吧？
Yes.
是的。
Oh, that’s a good question.
哦，这是个好问题。
I think he’s elected by the council at that stage, but don’t quote me on that.
我认为他是在那个阶段由理事会选出的，但请不要引用我的话。
I’d have to check.
我得检查一下。
It is largely democratic or nominally democratic.
它在很大程度上是民主的或名义上的民主。
Of course, there are all sorts of requirements in terms of who can vote.
当然，对于谁可以投票有各种各样的要求。
You have to be a citizen, which usually means you’re a freeman of London.
您必须是公民，这通常意味着您是伦敦的自由人。
You’re part of the guild system in London.
你是伦敦行会系统的一部分。
That’s very important.
这非常重要。
You have to be nominated and approved of by a trading guild in London and so on.
你必须得到伦敦贸易行会的提名和批准等等。
There’s all sorts of restrictions on the franchise, but it is designed to be a fairly Democratic system.
特许经营权有各种各样的限制，但它被设计成一个相当民主的制度。
In theory, the city does govern itself within the larger realm that is England, but there are all sorts of conflicts that happen between the city and the Crown in the 16th century.
理论上，这座城市确实在英格兰这个更大的领域内进行自治，但在16世纪，这座城市与王室之间发生了各种各样的冲突。
Thomas More, in fact, ends up in the middle of a few of them.
事实上，托马斯·莫尔最终处于其中一些人的中间。
He’s undersheriff of London for a time, and then he becomes a representative of the Crown.
他曾担任过一段时间的伦敦副警长，然后成为皇室的代表。
In fact, even draws attention the way in which he won’t be trusted in the city anymore if he takes any sort of annuity or payment or reward from the Crown, that there is this sense of conflict between the two of them.
事实上，甚至引起人们的注意，如果他从王室获得任何形式的年金、付款或奖励，他将不再受到这座城市的信任，他们两人之间存在这种冲突感。
On Canada
关于加拿大
Now, am I correct in thinking you’re from Western Canada?
现在，我认为你来自加拿大西部是正确的吗？
I’m from Ontario.
我来自安大略省。
Ontario, okay.
安大略省，好吧。
I did my master’s in British Columbia.
我在不列颠哥伦比亚省完成了硕士学位。
How do you think your Canadian background gives you a different understanding of Tudor history than most historians who tend to be British?
您认为您的加拿大背景如何让您对都铎王朝历史的理解与大多数英国历史学家不同？
I would love to think that it does.
我很乐意认为确实如此。
I don’t know for sure that it does.
我不确定是否如此。
I think my religious background maybe might be interesting in that I was raised Roman Catholic, but now profess to be an Anglican.
我认为我的宗教背景可能很有趣，因为我是罗马天主教徒，但现在自称是英国圣公会教徒。
On the question of Thomas More, I have some awareness of both sides of the Reformation.
关于托马斯·莫尔的问题，我对宗教改革的双方都有一些了解。
I think Canada has a deep appreciation of the monarchy from afar.
我认为加拿大对远方的君主制有着深深的欣赏。
I don’t know if this is something you want to talk about, but today is a very interesting day for the British monarchy as just a few hours ago, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor was arrested.
我不知道你是否想谈论这件事，但今天对于英国君主制来说是非常有趣的一天，因为就在几个小时前，安德鲁·蒙巴顿-温莎被捕了。
I think being in England as opposed to being in Canada, you’re aware of the darker side of monarchy in a way that we just see the flash and the ornamentation of it all.
我认为，与在加拿大相比，在英国，你会意识到君主制的阴暗面，我们只看到这一切的闪光和装饰。
It’s such a joy and a real privilege to be able to walk into an archive here in the UK and just be handed boxes and boxes of material related to the period that I study that we just don’t have access to in Canada.
能够走进英国的档案馆，并收到一盒又一箱与我研究时期相关的材料，这是我们在加拿大无法获得的，真是一种快乐和真正的荣幸。
Hopefully, I’d like to think that my appreciation for the gift that is that history means that maybe I’m a bit more passionate or dedicated to those archives than I might otherwise be.
希望我认为，我对历史这份礼物的欣赏意味着我可能比其他情况下对这些档案更加热情或奉献。
What is it about Canadian history that interests you most, even if you don’t work on it or write on it?
即使您没有研究或撰写加拿大历史，您最感兴趣的是什么？
Part of me would like to.
我的一部分愿意。
I loved Canadian history when I was doing it at high school and then at university and even a little bit during my master’s.
当我在高中和大学时，甚至在硕士期间也有一点喜欢加拿大历史。
I’m, by training, an intellectual historian, so I’m interested in the history of ideas.
我是一名思想史学家，所以我对思想史很感兴趣。
I’m interested in the way in which Canada has produced a really interesting intellectual history, one that really draws, I think, on republican thought, obviously on federal thought, on the idea of creating a federation, but one that has also really contributed to discourses around multiculturalism.
我对加拿大如何创造了一部非常有趣的思想史感兴趣，我认为，它确实借鉴了共和思想，显然是联邦思想，建立了联邦的想法，但也真正为围绕多元文化主义的讨论做出了贡献。
Some of the leading theorists on multiculturalism have come from Canada.
一些多元文化主义的主要理论家来自加拿大。
I’m interested in that story of what really makes Canadian political thought and the way that that has impacted other schools of thought around the world.
我对加拿大政治思想的真正形成及其影响世界其他思想流派的方式感兴趣。
What, for you, is the biggest puzzle in Canadian intellectual history, the thing you’d like to understand but you don’t and it gnaws at you and people argue about it?
对你来说，加拿大思想史上最大的谜题是什么，你想理解但你不明白的事情，它困扰着你，人们对此争论不休？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I really do want to go back at some point.
我真的很想在某个时候回去。
I don’t know if I’ll ever have the opportunity to do this and look at some of the earliest expressions, written expressions, of Canadian political thought.
我不知道我是否有机会这样做，看看加拿大政治思想的一些最早的表达方式、书面表达方式。
We’re going back to confederation and a little bit before and understand the different influences on that and what they were trying to do with that.
我们将回到联邦，并了解对此的不同影响以及他们试图对此做什么。
I’d really like to think a bit, too, about how they’re influenced and they are influenced by Native confederations and Native thoughts and how that flows into what is Canadian political thought.
我也真的很想思考一下他们是如何受到影响的，他们是如何受到原住民联盟和原住民思想的影响的，以及它们是如何流入加拿大政治思想的。
In recent decades, that’s been even more apparent.
近几十年来，这一点更加明显。
My MA supervisor was James Tully, who really draws on a lot of those strains of thought in constructing his political theory.
我的硕士导师是詹姆斯·塔利（James Tully），他在构建自己的政治理论时确实借鉴了很多这些思想。
Those are things that I’m interested in.
这些是我感兴趣的事情。
I really appreciate the question because I’ve not gotten to think about these things in recent years.
我真的很感激这个问题，因为近年来我没有时间去思考这些事情。
I’d love to come back to them one day.
我很想有一天能回到他们身边。
On choosing English history to study
关于选择学习英国历史
Biographically, what is it that led you to English history?
从传记上来说，是什么让您接触到了英国历史？
It does mean you’re going to have to move to England to actually do it?
这是否意味着你必须搬到英国才能真正做到这一点？
You did move to England.
你确实搬到了英国。
I did.
我做到了。
Partly it’s because I don’t have very many other languages.
部分原因是我不会太多其他语言。
That will work in Canada, too.
这在加拿大也同样有效。
That’s part of it.
这是其中的一部分。
I think I was interested in the time period, specifically.
我想我对那个时期特别感兴趣。
I had the benefit of an education at a Canadian university, which differs slightly from a university in the UK in that you have a broader range of courses that you can take.
我受益于在加拿大大学接受的教育，这与英国大学略有不同，因为你可以选择更广泛的课程。
You can really just take surveys and figure out what really appeals to you.
您实际上可以进行调查并找出真正吸引您的内容。
As I went through my degree, which is a four-year degree, I realized, essentially, that everything I was picking was vaguely 16th century, whether it was in history or in politics.
当我攻读四年制学位时，我意识到，本质上，我所选择的一切都隐约是 16 世纪的，无论是历史还是政治。
It took reflection to work out why.
我们需要反思才能找出原因。
I think a large part of that is to do with the way that the 16th century sits in this liminal and very transitional space between what we can recognize as medieval, and therefore, in some senses, is foreign and almost fantastical, and those things that we can identify as very modern and that we do indeed recognize that are familiar to us.
我认为这在很大程度上与16世纪所处的这个临界和非常过渡的空间有关，它介于我们可以认为是中世纪的东西之间，因此，在某些意义上，它是陌生的，几乎是幻想的，而我们可以认为是非常现代的，并且我们确实认识到我们所熟悉的东西。
Over the course of the 16th century, you see both.
在 16 世纪的历程中，这两种情况你都看到了。
You see a movement from one to the other.
你会看到从一个到另一个的运动。
Also, you see things, and this really intrigues me, you see things that could have been.
而且，你看到了一些事情，这真的让我很感兴趣，你看到了本来可以发生的事情。
You see not the path that we took necessarily, but the paths that we could have.
你看到的不是我们必须走的路，而是我们可以走的路。
I find that as something that really appeals to me to think about, not only as a counterfactual history, but indeed, often those contain lessons for us.
我发现这确实吸引我去思考，不仅是作为反事实的历史，而且实际上，这些往往为我们提供了教训。
Paths not taken are options we might have now or ways that we can sit at a distance and think about the world that we did create and question that, and maybe even start to dismantle it a bit.
未采取的道路是我们现在可能拥有的选择，或者是我们可以坐在远处思考我们确实创造的世界并质疑它的方式，甚至可能开始稍微拆除它。
My PhD supervisor, Quentin Skinner, often talks about history and the contingency in history as providing a sense of agency.
我的博士生导师昆汀·斯金纳（Quentin Skinner）经常谈论历史和历史中的偶然性，以提供一种代理感。
We are not necessarily bound by the world as we find it.
我们不一定受我们所发现的世界的束缚。
History inspires us to question it, to think about rebuilding it.
历史激励我们质疑它，思考重建它。
That’s something that I find in the 16th century.
这是我在 16 世纪发现的东西。
What was it like working with Quentin Skinner?
与昆汀·斯金纳合作感觉如何？
I love his books.
我喜欢他的书。
Brilliant.
杰出的。
He is the most supportive mentor, the most brilliant man, of course.
他是最支持我的导师，当然也是最聪明的人。
One of the best things about working with him is the space that he gives to you.
和他一起工作最好的事情之一就是他给你的空间。
I was a very young scholar.
我是一个非常年轻的学者。
I had barely stepped foot in an English archive before.
我以前几乎没有踏足过英文档案馆。
I really didn’t know what I was about.
我真的不知道自己在做什么。
I’d only studied in Canada.
我只在加拿大学习过。
I’d never been to Cambridge or Oxford or anything else.
我从未去过剑桥或牛津或其他任何地方。
Yet, he really empowered me to have the space to try things out, to say things, to question things.
然而，他确实给了我空间去尝试、去说、去质疑。
That, as a young scholar, as a woman in a male-dominated field as well, makes all the difference in the world.
作为一个年轻的学者，作为一个男性主导领域的女性，这一点使世界变得不同。
He’s really committed himself for the last several decades, too, ensuring that he’s empowering those voices and giving space to them.
在过去的几十年里，他也确实致力于确保自己能够赋予这些声音并为他们提供空间。
He’s brilliant.
他很聪明。
On touring and living in England
关于在英国的旅行和生活
Not counting London, Cambridge, or Oxford, but where is your favorite place in England?
不包括伦敦、剑桥或牛津，但你最喜欢英国的地方是哪里？
My favorite place in England.
我在英国最喜欢的地方。
I adore Warwick.
我喜欢沃里克。
I’ve spent a lot of time in Warwick.
我在沃里克度过了很多时间。
There’s Warwick Castle, nearby is Kenilworth, Lord Leycester Hospital.
这里有沃里克城堡，附近有凯尼尔沃思、莱斯特勋爵医院。
There’s a lot of fantastic history in Warwick.
沃里克有很多精彩的历史。
The minute we sign off, I’m going to think, “Oh, I should have said that place.”
当我们结束的那一刻，我会想，“哦，我应该说那个地方。”
There’s so much choice, right?
有很多选择，对吧？
Yes, there’s so, so much choice.
是的，有太多太多的选择。
I love Edinburgh.
我爱爱丁堡。
You said the UK, didn’t you?
你说的是英国，是吗？
Not just England.
不仅仅是英格兰。
You can pick it.
你可以选择它。
I love Liverpool, actually.
事实上，我爱利物浦。
Oh, is it?
哦，是吗？
I haven’t been to Liverpool in, oh, I’m going to date myself, probably about 20 years.
我已经有 20 年没去过利物浦了，哦，我要和自己约会了。
I think I need to revisit it.
我想我需要重新审视一下。
I love Manchester, Bristol, beautiful.
我爱曼彻斯特、布里斯托尔，美丽的。
I could go on forever, but I’ll say Warwick and surrounds for the moment.
我可以一直说下去，但现在我会说沃里克及其周边地区。
What’s the hardest thing about living there for you?
对你来说住在那里最困难的事情是什么？
You’re still Canadian in a bunch of ways.
在很多方面你仍然是加拿大人。
Is it the hot and cold water from the separate faucets or something more fundamental than that?
是来自单独水龙头的热水和冷水还是比这更基本的东西？
Yes.
是的。
When we had our bathroom redone, we made sure that that was not the case.
当我们重新装修浴室时，我们确保情况并非如此。
I can’t stand that.
我受不了。
The hardest thing, it took a while for me to learn how to drive here, if I’m being honest.
最困难的是，老实说，我花了一段时间才学会如何在这里开车。
It’s not just the roundabouts and the other side of the road.
不仅仅是环岛和道路的另一边。
That’s not that hard.
那并不难。
It’s just a different style of driving.
这只是一种不同的驾驶方式。
The roads are so narrow that you always feel like you’re in someone’s way.
道路很窄，你总觉得自己挡住了别人的路。
I miss the space, the openness of Canada.
我想念加拿大的空间和开放。
Everything here does feel a bit confined and constrained.
这里的一切确实让人感觉有点受限和约束。
I have to say, despite the fact that it doesn’t get as cold as in Canada, for several months of the year, I feel I’m just always cold because the houses just aren’t as insulated as we manage in Canada.
我不得不说，尽管事实上不像加拿大那么冷，但一年中的几个月，我觉得我总是很冷，因为房子不像我们在加拿大那样隔热。
On religion, politics, and economics in the UK
关于英国的宗教、政治和经济
How is the Anglican Church doing these days?
英国圣公会最近表现如何？
You mentioned you’re an Anglican.
你提到你是英国圣公会教徒。
Do you despair?
你绝望吗？
Do you think it’s fine?
你觉得这样好吗？
I am encouraged by the appointment of the latest Archbishop of Canterbury.
我对新任坎特伯雷大主教的任命感到鼓舞。
I’m hoping that’s a very positive appointment.
我希望这是一次非常积极的任命。
I’m hoping that it can pull itself out of the controversy and the difficulties and, in some ways, the tragedies of previous decades, and can think about moving forward in a positive way.
我希望它能够从争议和困难中走出来，在某种程度上，从过去几十年的悲剧中走出来，并能够思考以积极的方式前进。
Several members of my husband’s family are members of the clergy in the Church of England, and so I’m very aware of the challenges that it’s faced, but I’m hopeful.
我丈夫的几位家庭成员都是英国国教会的神职人员，所以我非常清楚它所面临的挑战，但我充满希望。
I’m certainly someone who thinks that part of the answer needs to be fully embracing women in the clergy.
我当然认为答案的一部分需要充分拥抱女性神职人员。
That churches are closing down who won’t even consider a female vicar.
那些教堂正在关闭，甚至不会考虑女性牧师。
They’re closing down because they’re not finding clergy to look after them.
他们正在关闭，因为他们找不到神职人员来照顾他们。
They’re not allowing for not even 50 percent, probably more than that, of who’s coming in to the clergy right now to come in and look after their parish.
他们甚至不允许现在加入神职人员的 50%（甚至可能更多）来照顾他们的教区。
I think that has to be part of the answer.
我认为这必须是答案的一部分。
What percent of the English population do you think believes, say, in the Trinity and the resurrection?
例如，你认为有多少英国人相信三位一体和复活？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Is it 5 percent or 1 percent, 30 percent?
是5%还是1%、30%？
I have no idea.
我不知道。
I guess 5 percent, but I don’t live there.
我猜是 5%，但我不住在那里。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’m sure there’s surveys on this.
我确信有这方面的调查。
I have no idea.
我不知道。
I think, too, it would be interesting to frame that question precisely because I think that there are a lot of people in England and probably elsewhere as well who participate in Anglican communion, who go to church from time to time and certainly at Christmas and Easter and celebrate Christian-widely holidays but wouldn’t necessarily believe in that sense or might even say that they believe but haven’t interrogated that belief in a very long time, for instance.
我也认为，准确地提出这个问题会很有趣，因为我认为在英国，可能还有其他地方，有很多人参加英国圣公会，他们不时去教堂，当然是在圣诞节和复活节，庆祝基督教广泛的节日，但不一定相信这种感觉，或者甚至可能说他们相信，但很长一段时间没有质疑这种信仰。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’d be very interested in the numbers.
我对这些数字非常感兴趣。
If you don’t know, that suggests it’s quite low.
如果您不知道，那就表明它相当低。
I’m in the US—
我在美国——
I think probably.
我想可能是吧。
—in Virginia.
——在弗吉尼亚州。
People will talk about devils and hell and angels.
人们会谈论魔鬼、地狱和天使。
You hear the chatter all the time.
你一直听到喋喋不休的声音。
You could question how much they believe or how far, but those are common topics.
你可以质疑他们相信多少或相信多远，但这些都是常见的话题。
The Anglican Church and the English in general are quite a bit more restrained about talking about those sorts of things.
英国圣公会和英国人在谈论此类事情时总体上比较克制。
Yes, I agree.
是的，我同意。
I think the fact that it doesn’t come up much.
我认为事实上它并没有出现太多。
The other thing to say is that I’m an academic and it became very unfashionable many years ago for academics to be religious in any way.
另一件要说的是，我是一名学者，多年前，学者以任何方式信仰宗教都变得非常不流行。
I’ve been in situations in academic contexts where I’ve been mocked for believing in the flying spaghetti monster, as some will put it.
正如一些人所说，我曾在学术界因相信会飞的意大利面怪物而被嘲笑。
It’s not something that I encounter that much and not something that I talk about that much because there is still such a criticism of those who have a faith beyond reason.
这不是我经常遇到的事情，也不是我经常谈论的事情，因为对于那些拥有超越理性信仰的人仍然存在这样的批评。
Why do you think the UK seems so stuck now, both politically and economically?
您认为为什么英国现在在政治和经济上都陷入困境？
There’s a lot of talent in the country, right?
国内的人才很多吧？
An incredible history, great location, English language, world’s best time zone.
令人难以置信的历史、优越的地理位置、英语、世界上最好的时区。
I think there’s a lot of things that have gone on in the UK in recent years that have led to a sense of stagnation, a sense of frustration, certainly a huge economic downturn.
我认为近年来英国发生的很多事情导致了停滞感、挫败感，当然还有巨大的经济衰退。
I’ll say explicitly that I think that Brexit posed a huge problem for the UK, both in terms of its identity and its economic position in the globe.
我要明确地说，我认为英国脱欧给英国带来了一个巨大的问题，无论是在其身份还是在全球的经济地位方面。
We saw a huge standard-of-living crisis following Brexit, which we’re still not fully recovered from.
英国脱欧后，我们目睹了一场巨大的生活水平危机，但我们仍未完全从中恢复过来。
I think there’s a lot of very short-termist thinking when it comes to investments.
我认为在投资方面存在很多非常短期主义的思维。
I’ll take the example of higher education.
我以高等教育为例。
Of course, that’s an example which I find myself in.
当然，这是我自己遇到的一个例子。
It’s one of the UK’s greatest commodities and products, is its education.
英国最伟大的商品和产品之一就是它的教育。
When you think of great universities of the world, of course, Oxbridge comes up, Oxford and Cambridge, as well as you can think about the LSE, Imperial, so on and so forth.
当你想到世界上最好的大学时，当然会想到牛津、剑桥、牛津和剑桥，你也可以想到伦敦经济学院、帝国理工学院等等。
Yet, there has been a real disinclination to invest in higher education.
然而，人们确实不愿意投资高等教育。
There’s been real significant cuts to funding.
资金确实大幅削减。
There’s been attacks on the concept of expertise.
专业知识的概念受到了攻击。
There’s been particular attacks on the humanities, on history, indeed on languages.
特别是对人文学科、历史，甚至语言的攻击。
There’s a sense in which they’re shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to one of the UK’s great commodities and one of the things that upholds its reputation around the world.
当谈到英国最重要的商品之一以及维护其在世界各地声誉的商品之一时，他们有一种搬起石头砸自己脚的感觉。
Unfortunately, there’s also been a lot of racism and xenophobia in this country, which of course sits beneath Brexit as well and has continued to pass that point, which has, I think, held us back from bigger conversations.
不幸的是，这个国家也存在很多种族主义和仇外心理，这当然也是英国脱欧的原因之一，而且这一点仍在继续，我认为这阻碍了我们进行更大的对话。
We’ve gotten stuck on these topics, which are designed to divide and therefore, conquer.
我们陷入了这些旨在分裂并因此征服的主题上。
Very last question.
最后一个问题。
Your last book, Thomas More: A Life, was what led to this podcast.
你的上一本书《托马斯·莫尔：一生》是促成这个播客的原因。
Please tell us if you can, what will you do next?
请告诉我们，如果可以的话，接下来你会做什么？
What do you want to do next?
接下来你想做什么？
I’ve got two more books under contract.
我还有两本合同书。
I think I’m allowed to talk about one of them.
我想我可以谈论其中之一。
In fact, it hasn’t been announced yet.
事实上，它还没有宣布。
I think there’s a press release forthcoming.
我认为即将发布新闻稿。
I checked with my editor today and I am allowed to talk about it.
今天我和我的编辑核实了，我被允许谈论这个问题。
It will be called Tyrant, and it will be a portrait of tyranny in the reign of Henry VIII.
它将被称为暴君，这将是亨利八世统治时期暴政的写照。
Not only an understanding, a greater understanding of his tyranny, of the character, the personality of a tyrant through Henry VIII, but I’m also very interested in the responses to tyranny, the work done by those who seek to prevent, to mitigate, to oppose tyranny, what their strategies were, successes, the failures, and really just to think about the concept, the nature, the expression of tyranny in the 16th century.
不仅是对他的暴政、性格、通过亨利八世的暴君个性的理解，更深入的理解，而且我也对对暴政的反应非常感兴趣，那些试图防止、减轻、反对暴政的人所做的工作，他们的策略是什么，成功，失败，以及真正思考16世纪暴政的概念、本质和表现。
Joanne Paul, thank you very much.
乔安妮·保罗，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
This episode was made possible through the support of the John Templeton Foundation.
这一集是在约翰·邓普顿基金会的支持下得以实现的。