Ian Leslie on McCartney, Lennon, and the Greatest Creative Partnership of All Time (Ep. 239)
Thanks to Ben Stein from Keeper for sponsoring this transcript.
感谢 Keeper 的 Ben Stein 赞助这份文字记录。
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today, I’m delighted to be chatting with Ian Leslie.
今天，我很高兴能与伊恩·莱斯利聊天。
He has a new book out, which I just loved.
他出了一本新书，我很喜欢。
It is called John & Paul: A Love Story in Songs.
它的名字叫约翰和保罗：歌曲中的爱情故事。
If you know anything about Ian or about me, you will know that John and Paul is John Lennon and Paul McCartney, namely a big part of the Beatles.
如果你了解伊恩或我，你就会知道约翰和保罗就是约翰·列侬和保罗·麦卡特尼，即披头士乐队的重要组成部分。
Ian, in fact, has many other accomplishments and writings, but today is not Generalist Day, today is Beatles Day.
事实上，伊恩还有许多其他成就和著作，但今天不是通才日，今天是披头士乐队日。
Ian, welcome to the show.
伊恩，欢迎来到这个节目。
Hello, Tyler.
你好，泰勒。
It is an honor to be here.
很荣幸来到这里。
I have so many questions.
我有很多问题。
How is it that John got to be such a great songwriter so quickly?
约翰怎么能这么快就成为一位伟大的词曲作者呢？
If you look at the early songs, like “If I Fell,” “Not a Second Time,” “Please Please Me,” “It Won’t Be Long,” “All I’ve Got To Do,” they seem to come from nowhere.
如果你看一下早期的歌曲，比如《If I Fell》、《Not a Second Time》、《Please Please Me》、《It Won’t Be Long》、《All I've Got To Do》，它们似乎不知从何而来。
Paul builds up and eventually is doing “Hey Jude,” “Golden Slumbers.” But John, who supposedly is lazy, just starts with incredible creations.
保罗逐渐积累起来，最终开始制作《Hey Jude》和《Golden Slumbers》。但据说很懒的约翰却从令人难以置信的创作开始。
How does that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
It’s a good question, and I don’t have a definitive answer, but perhaps it’s connected to what you were saying.
这是一个很好的问题，我没有明确的答案，但也许它与你所说的有关。
John was less methodical than Paul, perhaps a little less analytical in the way he thought about songs and song structures, and more prepared to just blunder his way into things and see what happened.
约翰不像保罗那么有条理，也许他对歌曲和歌曲结构的思考方式缺乏分析性，他更愿意跌跌撞撞地闯入事情，看看会发生什么。
Of course, he had wonderful intuitions.
当然，他有极好的直觉。
He had some kind of innate talent.
他有某种与生俱来的天赋。
He’d been raised on different forms of music, as had Paul, both rock and roll and blues and skiffle, but also, he was introduced to the Great American Songbook by Julia, by watching movies and so on.
他和保罗一样，是在不同形式的音乐中长大的，既有摇滚乐、布鲁斯音乐和斯基弗音乐，而且，朱莉娅通过看电影等方式向他介绍了《伟大的美国歌曲集》。
He had this incredible, I guess what we’d call today, sense of agency, this sense that, “Well, I’m just going to do it this way.” The very first time Paul saw John playing was at Woolton village fete.
他有一种令人难以置信的感觉，我想我们今天称之为代理感，这种感觉是，“好吧，我就这样做。”保罗第一次看到约翰演奏是在伍尔顿村的庆典上。
They met properly for the first time afterwards.
此后，他们第一次正式见面。
Paul was thrilled by how John got the words wrong to a song that they both knew, that Paul knew.
保罗对约翰把一首他们都知道、保罗也知道的歌曲弄错歌词感到非常兴奋。
It took me a while to work out why Paul was so thrilled by John getting the words wrong.
我花了一段时间才明白为什么保罗对约翰说错的话如此兴奋。
I think he was taking from John this sense that, “Yes, this is American music, but we don’t just have to imitate it.
我认为他从约翰那里继承了这种感觉：“是的，这是美国音乐，但我们不仅仅需要模仿它。
We can actually do it in our own way.
其实我们可以用自己的方式来做。
We could do it wrong, and it’ll come out right.” I think John was the first to get onto that in a really strong way, and that’s probably what pushed him furthest ahead in those early years.
我们可能做错了，但结果会是对的。”我认为约翰是第一个以非常强烈的方式意识到这一点的人，这可能是他早年走得最远的原因。
What’s your model of how lazy John was?
你对约翰有多懒的模型是什么？
Because in the Get Back movie, he seems detached.
因为在《归来》电影中，他显得超然。
In the middle years, it seems it’s always Paul driving them into the studio.
到了中期，似乎总是保罗开车送他们进工作室。
How is he so agentic and possibly so lazy at the same time?
他怎么会如此代理，同时又如此懒惰？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I think if the Get Back movie had been shot while they were recording Revolver, for instance, a couple of years earlier, we would have seen a very different John.
我认为，如果《归来》电影是在几年前他们录制《左轮手枪》时拍摄的，我们会看到一个非常不同的约翰。
Much more voluble, much more energetic, more obviously charismatic, but I do think that even then he had this different attitude to work, which was, “When I get the time to lie around and do nothing, I’m going to do that, and maybe I’ll take some drugs at the same time.” Whereas, Paul was much more, “Oh, come on, guys, let’s go to work, let’s write some songs, let’s play.”
更健谈，更有活力，更有魅力，但我确实认为即使在那时，他对工作也有不同的态度，那就是，“当我有时间无所事事时，我就会这样做，也许我会同时服用一些药物。”而保罗则更多的是，“哦，来吧，伙计们，让我们去工作，让我们写一些歌，让我们玩吧。”
Now, this is all relative.
现在，这都是相对的。
They all worked hard.
他们都努力工作。
If you look at their schedule during the ’60s, it’s absolutely crazy.
如果你看看他们在 60 年代的日程安排，你会发现这绝对是疯狂的。
But when they got time off, John was often quite happy just lying around on a sofa.
但当他们休息的时候，约翰常常很高兴地躺在沙发上。
From his point of view, he was just going deep into the recesses of his mind — sometimes enhanced by drugs, and pulling things out, whereas Paul was always on and looking out.
从他的角度来看，他只是深入到自己思想的深处——有时会通过药物来增强，并将东西拉出来，而保罗总是在观察。
I think John thought Paul was missing something, and Paul thought John was missing something.
我认为约翰认为保罗错过了一些东西，保罗也认为约翰错过了一些东西。
Their two different attitudes to the world come together and create this incredible new thing.
他们对世界的两种不同态度结合在一起，创造了这个令人难以置信的新事物。
With what song, in your view, did the Beatles really start as an entity?
在您看来，披头士乐队真正开始作为一个实体是从哪首歌开始的？
Many people would say, “Please Please Me.” I have a slightly different and surprising nomination, but what’s your view?
很多人会说：“请取悦我。”我的提名略有不同且令人惊讶，但您有何看法？
When do you say, “This is the Beatles?”
你什么时候说“这是披头士乐队”？
You’ve made my answer sound really boring because I think “Please Please Me” is the point when they turn into a pop machine.
你让我的回答听起来很无聊，因为我认为“请取悦我”是他们变成流行机器的关键。
It’s the point at which they both create something which is emotionally truthful because it’s full of jealousy and yearning.
在这一点上，他们都创造了一些情感上真实的东西，因为它充满了嫉妒和渴望。
It’s got real authentic emotion in it, but it’s also this absolutely incredibly hook-y pop song.
它里面有真正真实的情感，但它也是一首绝对令人难以置信的挂钩流行歌曲。
It’s got tremendous propulsive force, and I think it’s slightly underrated in the Beatles’ repertoire.
它具有巨大的推进力，我认为它在披头士乐队的曲目中被稍微低估了。
Of course, it’s the second single that they release.
当然，这是他们发行的第二张单曲。
But you tell me yours.
但你告诉我你的。
It’s a strange nomination, but it’s when they’re backing Tony Sheridan.
这是一个奇怪的提名，但这是在他们支持托尼·谢里登的时候。
They do “Ain’t She Sweet” with John singing, which I feel he sings with total confidence, and it fully sounds like the Beatles.
他们和约翰一起演唱了《Ain’t She Sweet》，我觉得他唱得很自信，听起来完全像披头士乐队。
They did plenty of covers early on, as you well know, so we can’t rule it out on those grounds, but if “Ain’t She Sweet” were on, say, what Americans call The Beatles’ Second Album, I wouldn’t think twice about it.
正如你所知，他们很早就做了很多翻唱，所以我们不能基于这些理由排除它，但如果“Ain’t She Sweet”出现在美国人所说的披头士乐队的第二张专辑中，我不会三思而后行。
I wouldn’t think, “Oh, that song doesn’t belong there.”
我不会想，“哦，那首歌不属于那里。”
Typically, it’s quite an odd song to cover.
通常来说，这是一首相当奇怪的歌曲。
I don’t think many other bands, if any — or singers — would have considered covering that.
我不认为很多其他乐队（如果有的话）——或歌手——会考虑涵盖这一点。
It’s one of those strange, quite hard to see, “Why would you do that?” Yet those are the songs they often sought out.
这是一种奇怪的、很难看到的问题，“你为什么要这么做？”然而这些是他们经常寻找的歌曲。
They were often making deliberately weird choices in the songs they covered.
他们经常在翻唱的歌曲中故意做出奇怪的选择。
Of course, as you allude to, nearly all the songs they played before they got famous were covers, or 90 percent of them.
当然，正如你提到的，他们成名之前演奏的几乎所有歌曲都是翻唱的，或者说其中 90% 都是翻唱的。
The songwriting started earlier, but actually performing the songs that they’d written started relatively late, really, just before they got famous.
歌曲创作开始较早，但实际表演他们写的歌曲开始相对较晚，实际上是在他们成名之前。
On their least successful covers
在他们最不成功的封面上
In terms of the recordings, which do you think are their least successful covers?
就录音而言，您认为哪些翻唱最不成功？
Again, I have my own nominations here.
再说一次，我在这里有自己的提名。
Oh, good question.
哦，好问题。
Maybe we should talk about yours first.
也许我们应该先谈谈你的。
I’m thinking of “Mr. Moonlight,” but as everyone says that, I’m loathe to mention it.
我想到了“月光先生”，但正如每个人都这么说的那样，我不愿意提及它。
Give me yours.
把你的给我。
The two Chuck Berry songs.
查克·贝瑞的两首歌。
I think “Roll Over Beethoven” — the George vocal is somewhat weak.
我觉得《Roll Over Beethoven》——乔治的声音有点弱。
It’s not nearly as good or as interesting as Chuck’s version.
它不像查克的版本那么好或那么有趣。
Then “Rock and Roll Music,” which John does quite energetically, but again, Chuck’s is just more interesting.
然后是“摇滚音乐”，约翰非常精力充沛地演奏，但同样，查克的更有趣。
Chuck is the one early rock and roll figure who, in that sense, defeated them.
从这个意义上说，查克是一位早期摇滚人物，他击败了他们。
I think “Mr. Moonlight” is fantastic.
我觉得《月光先生》很棒。
I might nominate it as their best cover.
我可能会提名它作为他们的最佳封面。
It’s so much better than the original.
它比原来的好多了。
It’s one of John’s best vocals.
这是约翰最好的声音之一。
It’s done with complete conviction.
这是带着完全的信念完成的。
The notion that it sounds ugly and the organ is weird — I think they were just doubling down on everything and that it works.
听起来很丑而且管风琴很奇怪的想法——我认为他们只是在所有事情上加倍努力，而且它有效。
It’s one of the Beatles’ songs I listen to most often, in fact.
事实上，这是我最常听的披头士乐队的歌曲之一。
Okay, I’m persuaded by that.
好吧，我被说服了。
I wouldn’t actually go that far, and I don’t often listen to it, but I do think his vocal is so bizarre that it absolutely is incredibly memorable and cuts through.
我实际上不会走那么远，而且我也不经常听，但我确实认为他的声音是如此奇怪，以至于绝对令人难以置信地令人难忘和切入。
I actually like “Rock and Roll Music.” Again, I think he sounds so committed to it.
我其实很喜欢“摇滚音乐”。我再次认为他听起来非常投入。
I think I would agree with George’s version of “Roll Over Beethoven” — it’s kind of limp.
我想我会同意乔治版本的“翻滚贝多芬” ——有点跛。
But George was lagging behind as a vocalist and as a performer, and then at the time, as a songwriter as well.
但乔治作为歌手和表演者都落后了，当时作为歌曲作者也是如此。
But since almost everybody else in the world was, I don’t really blame him for that and, of course, he started to catch up.
但由于世界上几乎所有其他人都是如此，我并没有真正为此责怪他，当然，他开始迎头赶上。
I think “Words of Love” is slightly weak.
我觉得《情话》略显薄弱。
Like “Rock and Roll Music,” I think it’s done well, but it’s not better than the Buddy Holly original.
就像《摇滚音乐》一样，我认为它做得很好，但并不比巴迪·霍利的原作更好。
Nor is “Rock and Roll Music,” I think, better than the Chuck Berry original.
我认为，“摇滚音乐”也不比查克·贝里的原创作品更好。
It doesn’t quite add some special thing in either case.
在这两种情况下，它都没有添加一些特殊的东西。
Whereas Anna does; Anna’s a great cover.
而安娜却这么做了；安娜是一个很棒的掩护。
Yes.
是的。
It’s interesting because, maybe, they were less good when they were covering artists whom they really, really respected and loved.
这很有趣，因为也许，当他们报道他们真正非常尊重和喜爱的艺术家时，他们的表现就不那么好了。
The closer they got to that, the harder it was for them to get distance on them.
距离越近，他们就越难拉开距离。
It’s interesting, for instance, that they covered very little, if any — now that I think about it — Elvis Presley songs.
例如，有趣的是，他们翻唱的歌曲（如果有的话）非常少——“现在我想起来了”——“猫王埃尔维斯·普雷斯利（Elvis Presley）的歌曲。”
Of course, there were huge Elvis Presley’s songs.
当然，还有猫王埃尔维斯·普雷斯利（Elvis Presley）的巨献歌曲。
I think they found it harder with Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly — who were their formative influences — harder to take a step back and say, “Well, how can we do this differently?” Ended up producing these slightly weaker — I mean, they’re still great in my mind — but slightly weaker imitative versions.
我认为他们发现，与查克·贝里和巴迪·霍利一起——“他们对他们的形成产生了影响”——更难退后一步说：“好吧，我们怎样才能以不同的方式做这件事？”最终生产出了这些稍弱的 ——我的意思是，它们在我心目中仍然很棒—— 但稍弱的模仿版本。
That’s a good point.
这是一个很好的观点。
Noam Dworman and I agree that either Paul McCartney or Wings covers of Beatles songs are almost uniformly mediocre.
诺姆·德沃曼和我都同意，保罗·麦卡特尼或 Wings 翻唱的披头士乐队歌曲几乎都是平庸的。
They’re faithful, they’re well executed, but I never want to hear them.
他们很忠诚，执行得很好，但我从来不想听到他们的声音。
I can’t think of a case where they improved on anything or gave it much of a new slant.
我想不出他们对任何事情进行了改进或给予了很多新的倾斜的情况。
Do you agree with that?
你同意吗？
Or is there a really good Macca or Wings cover of a Beatles song?
或者有没有非常好的 Macca 或 Wings 翻唱的披头士乐队歌曲？
I think some of the performances on Wings Over America are pretty good, but I generally agree, and it leads my mind to this larger point, which is that part of the reason they were so incredibly innovative in the first place was that they were British and therefore had this distance from American music.
我认为《Wings Over America》的一些表演相当不错，但我总体上同意，这让我想到了一个更大的观点，这就是他们如此令人难以置信的创新的部分原因，首先是他们是英国人，因此与美国音乐有这么大的距离。
They were not organically part of the American traditions of blues and jazz and gospel that fed into rock and roll.
它们并不是美国蓝调、爵士乐和福音音乐传统的有机组成部分，而这些传统又融入了摇滚乐。
This music was an alien language to them.
这种音乐对他们来说是一种陌生的语言。
It connected to some of the music from home, but it was, in other senses, wildly different, and that enabled them to see things about it and to perhaps be a little bit more analytical about it because they had this distance on it.
它与家里的一些音乐有联系，但在其他意义上，它是截然不同的，这使他们能够看到有关它的东西，并且可能对它有更多的分析，因为他们有这个距离。
To say, “Why can’t this go with that?
说：“为什么这个不能和那个搭配呢？
Why can’t we mix up this style with that style?
为什么我们不能将这种风格与那种风格混合起来？
Why can’t we change this chord structure so it’s not like the normal one?” In a way that perhaps native American artists at the time were not able to do with the same facility.
为什么我们不能改变这个和弦结构，使它与正常的和弦结构不同呢？”在某种程度上，当时的美国本土艺术家也许无法用同样的设施做到这一点。
I think that sense of distance from it is actually what creates the innovation.
我认为与它的距离感实际上是创造创新的原因。
Two of the best covers for me are “You’ve Really Got a Hold on Me,” sung by John, and Paul doing “Long Tall Sally.” I think those are just amazing, much better than the originals [Smokey Robinson & the Miracles, Little Richard].
对我来说最好的两首翻唱是约翰演唱的“You'veReally Got a Hold on Me”，以及保罗演唱的“Long Tall Sally”。我认为这些都太棒了，比原作[斯莫基·罗宾逊与奇迹，小理查德]好得多。
I think “Please Mr. Postman” , as well, is one of my favorites.
我认为“请邮递员先生”也是我的最爱之一。
Again, a lot of the early ones — it’s just this sheer incredible commitment of the vocal: “Long Tall Sally,” Paul; “Please Mr. Postman” and others for John.
再说一遍，很多早期的歌曲——这只是声音令人难以置信的承诺：“长高的莎莉，”保罗; “请邮递员先生”等为约翰服务。
They find the emotional heart of these songs in a way that sometimes the originals, which are a bit neater and have the edges sawn off, were not able to do, and I think that is just what makes them really so powerful.
他们以某种方式找到了这些歌曲的情感核心，而原作有时更整洁，边缘被锯掉，无法做到，我认为这正是它们如此强大的原因。
On joint composition
关于联合组成
I have some questions about joint composition.
我有一些关于关节组成的问题。
These may be matters of opinion, but how much of “Help” do you think Paul actually wrote?
这些可能是见仁见智的问题，但你认为保罗实际上写了多少《帮助》？
Tell me why you asked the question because otherwise, we’ll be going through the track listing, and I’m trying to remember —
告诉我你为什么问这个问题，否则我们将浏览曲目列表，而我正在努力记住 -
Paul has claimed — I stress the word claimed — that he wrote parts of “Help” and helped John with the melody.
保罗声称“我强调声称这个词”，他写了《帮助》的部分内容，并帮助约翰创作了旋律。
Now, that could mean many different things, but when I hear “Help” —
现在，这可能意味着很多不同的事情，但是当我听到“帮助” 时——
The song as opposed to the album.
这首歌与专辑相对。
Yes, the song.
是的，这首歌。
It does sound to me truly joint, the way, say, “From Me to You” is truly joint.
在我看来，这确实是真正的联合，就像“从我到你”那样，是真正的联合。
Whereas a John song is .
而约翰的歌曲则是。
.
。
.
。
I don’t mean to sound negative, but John melodies are more monotonous in the sense that “I Am the Walrus” or parts of “In My Life” just run on and push on.
我并不是有意听起来消极，但约翰的旋律更单调，因为“我是海象”或“在我的生活”的部分只是继续前进。
“Help,” to me, has some Paul-like chord changes, but I’m not sure.
对我来说，“Help”有一些类似保罗的和弦变化，但我不确定。
What’s your view?
你的看法是什么？
Yes, it could be.
是的，可能是这样。
It is always very hard to tell because they were so .
总是很难说清楚，因为事实就是如此。
.
。
.
。
Their principal influences, apart from Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly and girl groups and doo-wop, and everything else — Bob Dylan — their principal influences were each other.
他们的主要影响，除了查克·贝里（Chuck Berry）和巴迪·霍利（Buddy Holly）以及女子团体和杜沃普（doo-wop），以及其他一切——“鲍勃·迪伦”——他们的主要影响是彼此。
So, they’re stealing things from each other all the time.
所以，他们一直在互相偷东西。
You might be right.
你可能是对的。
It might have been a Paul contribution, or it might be just John saying, “Let me run Paul software in my head now.
这可能是 Paul 的贡献，也可能只是 John 说的：“现在让我在脑子里运行 Paul 软件。
What would he do?”
他会做什么？
The thing that I think we do know that Paul contributed to “Help” was those backing vocals, “and now those days are gone.” The backing vocals act as this countermelody, and they do this odd thing, which is quite unusual, which is they start before the lead line.
我想我们确实知道保罗对《帮助》的贡献是那些和声，“现在那些日子已经一去不复返了。”和声充当了这种复调旋律，他们做了一件奇怪的事情，这是很不寻常的，那就是他们在主线之前开始。
The backing vocals announced the line, and then John comes in and sings, and it creates this lovely effect, as if John’s friends are anticipating his thoughts.
和声宣布了这句台词，然后约翰进来唱歌，这就创造了这种可爱的效果，就好像约翰的朋友们正在期待他的想法一样。
It creates this incredible empathy.
它创造了这种令人难以置信的同理心。
I think that’s one of the most powerful effects of that song.
我认为这是这首歌最强大的效果之一。
I have another hypothesis — tell me if you agree.
我还有另一个假设 ——如果你同意请告诉我。
Now, I’m not talking here about pieced-together bits like side two of Abbey Road or “Cry Baby Cry,” but genuine joint composition.
现在，我在这里谈论的不是像 Abbey Road 的第二面或“Cry Baby Cry”那样的拼凑片段，而是真正的联合构图。
I think of “Baby You’re a Rich Man” as maybe the last genuinely joint John-Paul composition.
我认为《宝贝，你是个有钱人》可能是最后一首真正由约翰·保罗创作的作品。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
So “I’ve Got a Feeling” wouldn’t count in your book because it’s two separate songs.
所以“我有一种感觉”不会算在你的书中，因为它是两首独立的歌曲。
It was two separate songs, and Paul said, “Let’s put these together.” And it was wonderful, but it wasn’t jointly composed.
这是两首独立的歌曲，保罗说：“让我们把它们放在一起。”很精彩，但不是共同创作的。
Yes.
是的。
I’m trying to think now, after 1967, if there are examples of those truly jointly composed songs, and I’m not sure, so you might be right.
我现在正在尝试思考，1967 年之后，是否存在那些真正共同创作的歌曲的例子，我不确定，所以你可能是对的。
Sometimes this is exaggerated and people say, “They basically became independent forces after 1967.” People put it on different dates.
有时这被夸大了，人们说：“1967年以后他们基本上成了独立力量”。人们把它放在不同的日期。
I actually think they were writing together all the way through.
我实际上认为他们自始至终都是在一起写作的。
It’s just that some of the contributions are very subtle.
只是有些贡献非常微妙。
Actually, you saw that in the Get Back movie.
事实上，你在《归来》电影中看到了这一点。
Even when Paul’s writing the lyrics to “Get Back,” the song, is throwing in little ideas, and Paul is using him as a sounding board.
即使保罗在为这首歌写歌词时，也只是提出了一些想法，而保罗也把他当作了共鸣板。
Yes, I think those absolutely fluid — where you can’t tell where one person’s contribution starts and the other’s ends — those songs, yes, you’re probably right.
是的，我认为那些绝对流畅的 —— 你无法分辨一个人的贡献从哪里开始，另一个人的贡献到哪里结束 ——那些歌曲，是的，你可能是对的。
They didn’t really happen after 1967.
1967 年之后，这些事情并没有真正发生。
“Flying” is the only song, I believe, credited to all four Beatles, but who do you think actually wrote it?
我相信《Flying》是唯一一首被所有四位披头士乐队创作的歌曲，但你认为这首歌实际上是谁写的呢？
I would imagine Paul, although there may be a collaboration between Paul and George.
我会想象保罗，尽管保罗和乔治之间可能有合作。
Because George was involved in some of the wackiest stuff around that period.
因为乔治参与了那个时期一些最古怪的事情。
He hadn’t actually been that present during the making of Sergeant Pepper, but he came back renewed from “Magical Mystery Tour” onwards.
在《佩珀中士》的制作过程中，他实际上并没有出现在场，但从《神奇神秘之旅》开始，他又焕然一新。
I don’t know, what’s your guess?
我不知道，你的猜测是什么？
I agree with your hypothesis.
我同意你的假设。
Parts of “Flying” remind me of “Zoo Gang” and some other weird McCartney B-sides of the early to mid ’70s, like “Lunch Box/Odd Sox.” Then there’s something else in there which seems to me more George than John, so I think we agree completely.
《Flying》的某些部分让我想起了《Zoo Gang》和 70 年代初到中期麦卡特尼其他一些奇怪的 B 面歌曲，比如《Lunch Box/Odd Sox》。然后还有其他一些东西在我看来更像是乔治而不是约翰，所以我认为我们完全同意。
Yes, you’re right.
是的，你说得对。
Any time there’s some weird, really avant-garde thing to do, we should be thinking about Paul.
每当有一些奇怪的、非常前卫的事情要做时，我们都应该想到保罗。
Not always the case, of course, because there are tracks like “Tomorrow Never Knows,” where John really goes full blast, but even then, it’s —
当然，情况并非总是如此，因为在像《Tomorrow Never Knows》这样的歌曲中，约翰真的全力以赴，但即便如此，它还是 -
That’s a Paul song in my view, in a funny way.
在我看来，这是一首保罗的歌，以一种有趣的方式。
John did the composition and the vocal, but I think Paul did the arranging, the orchestration, worked with George Martin to do the production.
约翰负责作曲和演唱，但我认为保罗负责编曲、配器，并与乔治·马丁合作制作。
Yes.
是的。
It’s an interesting example of where the composition starts and where the production starts because you might say it’s a John composition and vision and Paul executes it incredibly.
这是一个有趣的例子，说明了作曲和制作的开始，因为你可能会说这是约翰的作曲和愿景，而保罗却难以置信地执行了它。
I think what John wanted from the song was to create a psychedelic experience so that the song was not just about the void.
我认为约翰想从这首歌中得到的是创造一种迷幻的体验，这样这首歌就不仅仅是关于虚空的。
It wasn’t just about a psychedelic experience.
这不仅仅是一次迷幻体验。
It was a psychedelic experience.
这是一次迷幻的经历。
He wanted to it embody it, and I think he successfully communicated that vision to Paul and the others.
他希望它能体现这一点，我认为他成功地将这一愿景传达给了保罗和其他人。
Of course, then Paul is incredibly well placed to deliver on that because he’s been thinking and he’s been immersed in that world of avant-garde noise production, so he knows exactly where to take it.
当然，保罗非常有能力实现这一点，因为他一直在思考，而且他一直沉浸在前卫噪音制作的世界中，所以他确切地知道该把它带到哪里。
Yes, I see what you mean.
是的，我明白你的意思。
It’s almost a Paul song, but I do think it’s John’s vision.
这几乎是一首保罗的歌，但我确实认为这是约翰的愿景。
It wouldn’t have happened without John.
如果没有约翰，这一切就不会发生。
On John and Paul’s musical influences
论约翰和保罗的音乐影响
This is now pre-Yoko — did John Lennon care about John Cage in the way that Paul did?
现在是洋子之前的时代——约翰·列侬像保罗一样关心约翰·凯奇吗？
Or did he just think it was silly, like this isn’t music?
或者他只是认为这很愚蠢，就像这不是音乐一样？
I don’t think he thought it was silly.
我不认为他认为这很愚蠢。
I’ve never detected that.
我从来没有发现这一点。
I think there’s some quote where he says, “Avant-garde is French for bullshit.” I don’t think he really believed that.
我想他曾说过这样一句话：“前卫在法语中是胡说八道的意思。”我认为他并不真的相信这一点。
I’ve seen more quotes from 1966, 1967 where he’s talking about, “Me and Paul are into this.” Or “Paul played me this.
我看到了更多 1966 年、1967 年的引言，他在其中谈到，“我和保罗对此很感兴趣。”或者“保罗给我玩了这个。
Then we started listening to Indian music.” Or “We started listening to avant-garde stuff.” No, I don’t think he got it.
然后我们开始听印度音乐。”或者“我们开始听前卫的东西。”不，我不认为他明白。
He wasn’t quite as into it in the way that Paul was, but I think he was open-minded and curious, and he loved to check out new noises, too.
他不像保罗那样热衷于此，但我认为他思想开放且好奇，而且他也喜欢检查新的声音。
Was John as impressed by Brian Wilson as Paul was?
约翰和保罗一样对布莱恩·威尔逊印象深刻吗？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
He clearly had more of an influence on Paul, partly because they were both bass players.
显然他对保罗的影响更大，部分原因是他们都是贝斯手。
They both had these expansive melodic gifts, so you can see the affinity more clearly.
他们都有着丰富的旋律天赋，所以你可以更清楚地看到他们的相似之处。
It’s harder for me to see what the connection between Brian and John is, but also, I’ve never seen John deprecating the Beach Boys or Brian Wilson either.
我很难看出布莱恩和约翰之间有什么联系，而且，我也从未见过约翰贬低海滩男孩或布莱恩·威尔逊。
Of course, he was quite capable of doing so.
当然，他是很有能力做到这一点的。
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
Have you got a feeling for that?
你有这样的感觉吗？
My sense is he felt it as distant, not negative, impressed in the abstract but somehow not sad in the right way and, in some ways, too much of a false cheeriness for John who was willing to just dig in and be negative.
我的感觉是，他觉得这很遥远，而不是消极的，抽象地印象深刻，但不知怎的，并没有以正确的方式悲伤，而且在某些方面，对于愿意深入挖掘并消极的约翰来说，有太多虚假的快乐。
Emotionally, I doubt it resonated with him, but that’s speculation.
从情感上来说，我怀疑这是否会引起他的共鸣，但这只是猜测。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Yes, that’s a really great point there because I think what John always looked for — they both did, but John perhaps more than anyone — was a visceral, emotional connection, a physical feeling that comes off the song like flame.
是的，这是一个非常重要的观点，因为我认为约翰一直在寻找的是一种发自内心的情感联系，一种像火焰一样从歌曲中散发出来的身体感觉。
I think in the Beach Boys, you’re right.
我认为在《海滩男孩》中，你是对的。
I can imagine he listened to the Beach Boys and thought, “This is very clever and very melodic and very beautiful, but it’s not breaking my heart, or it’s not making me want to dance and so, therefore, it feels a little distant.”
我可以想象他听了海滩男孩的歌后想：“这非常聪明，非常有旋律，非常美丽，但它并没有让我心碎，也没有让我想跳舞，所以，所以，感觉有点遥远。”
Whereas Paul was more likely to be seduced by the complex and extraordinary beauty of Brian Wilson’s composition.
而保罗更有可能被布莱恩·威尔逊作品的复杂性和非凡之美所吸引。
So, I think what you’re saying makes sense.
所以，我觉得你说的有道理。
I view Brian Wilson as embracing sadness, whereas John uses anger to deny sadness, on average.
平均而言，我认为布莱恩·威尔逊拥抱悲伤，而约翰则用愤怒来否认悲伤。
Yes.
是的。
John always throws sadness together either with anger or humor or both.
约翰总是把悲伤与愤怒或幽默或两者兼而有之。
He didn’t deny sadness necessarily.
他并不一定否认悲伤。
If you think about the songs on the White Album — “Yer Blues” — he’s literally talking about being lonely and wanting to kill himself.
如果你想想《白色专辑》中的歌曲——《Yer Blues》——他实际上是在谈论孤独和想要自杀。
There isn’t much more of an explicit —
没有更多明确的 ——
But it turns into suicide rather quickly, right?
但它很快就会变成自杀，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
It’s theatrical, but I think it’s also very heartfelt.
这是戏剧性的，但我认为它也很真诚。
When we sense that there’s some humor going on in a John song, we shouldn’t think, “Oh, therefore he’s just having a laugh.
当我们感觉到约翰的歌曲中有一些幽默感时，我们不应该想：“哦，所以他只是在笑。
He doesn’t really mean it.” You should actually think the opposite.
他其实不是这个意思。”你实际上应该想相反的事情。
You should think, “Oh my God, if he’s joking about it, he’s really, really, really feeling it.”
你应该想，“天哪，如果他是在开玩笑，那么他真的、真的、真的有这种感觉。”
Do you think Paul’s song, “Yesterday,” is excessively sentimental?
你认为保罗的歌曲《昨天》是否过于伤感？
No, I don’t.
不，我不。
First of all, it’s not really sentimental in any way.
首先，无论如何，这并不是真正的感伤。
I think it acquired this reputation because it does seem to come from a different tradition, perhaps a more easy-listening tradition in the first instance, although, I can hear echoes of music going far back from that in history.
我认为它获得这个声誉是因为它似乎确实来自不同的传统，也许首先是一个更容易聆听的传统，尽管我可以听到音乐的回声可以追溯到历史上。
But as a song about this person, this woman has left me and I have no idea why, it doesn’t then go on to describe how wonderful this girl is.
但作为一首关于这个人的歌曲，这个女人离开了我，我不知道为什么，它并没有继续描述这个女孩有多么美妙。
Just says she’s gone and I don’t know why.
只是说她走了，我不知道为什么。
It’s bleak.
很惨淡。
The way he sings it is clipped, it’s brusque, it’s northern.
他唱歌的方式很简洁，很粗鲁，很北方。
It’s almost this northern folk sound to the way he sings it.
他的演唱方式几乎就是北方民谣。
The string arrangement — he made sure that it wasn’t sentimental.
弦乐的安排 ——他确保这不是感伤的。
He said to George Martin explicitly, “We’ve got to find a way of not making this sound saccharine.” So, George Martin asked the players not to play with vibrato or to play with very little vibrato.
他明确地对乔治·马丁说：“我们必须找到一种方法，让这听起来不那么甜蜜。”因此，乔治·马丁要求演奏者不要演奏颤音或演奏很少的颤音。
I think it’s very unsentimental, and in a way, it’s not that far off from “For No One,” which is an anti-sentimental song, where there’s very little hope.
我认为这是非常不感伤的，在某种程度上，它与《For No One》相差不远，这是一首反感伤的歌曲，希望渺茫。
Or “Another Girl” even, right?
或者甚至是“另一个女孩”，对吧？
The girls were leaving all the time in that song.
在那首歌中，女孩们一直在离开。
It’s quite brutally about something very particular.
对于一些非常特别的事情来说，这是相当残酷的。
It’s interesting because I think in that year, 1965, with “Another Girl” and “I’m Looking Through You,” he is really soaking up, I think, from John.
这很有趣，因为我认为在那一年，即 1965 年，凭借《Another Girl》和《I'm Looking Through You》，他真的从约翰那里吸收了很多。
Or “The Night Before.” He’s leading into his Johness in the sense of he’s finding some anger and some hostility.
或者“前一天晚上”。他正在进入他的约翰内斯，因为他发现了一些愤怒和一些敌意。
“You Won’t See Me,” most of all.
最重要的是“你不会看到我”。
“You Won’t See Me.” Whereas before, he really had two modes.
“你不会看到我。”而之前，他确实有两种模式。
He was full on rock and roll, “I Saw Her Standing There,” or this beautiful romantic reflective side, “Things We Said Today.” By 1965, mainly because of John, partly because of Dylan, who was incredibly boiling with hostility and anger, at times anyway, McCartney was really uncovering that side of himself as well and pouring that into songs.
他充满了摇滚乐气息，“我看到她站在那里”，或者是美丽浪漫的反思面，“我们今天说的事情”。到了 1965 年，主要是因为约翰，部分是因为迪伦，他充满了敌意和愤怒，无论如何有时，麦卡特尼也真正揭露了自己的这一面，并将其倾注到歌曲中。
Actually, yes, you’re right.
事实上，是的，你是对的。
I don’t think Yesterday is that far from some of those more ostensibly negative songs.
我认为《昨天》与那些表面上比较消极的歌曲相差不远。
Do you ever, in Paul, hear the influence of Dylan, and if so, where?
你是否曾在保罗身上听过迪伦的影响？如果有，是在哪里？
Yes, I think you can hear it in those songs, like “I’m Looking Through You.” Just the willingness to put his insecurities and his jealousy and almost spitefulness into a song, which, of course, Dylan was just fantastically willing to do, to put a more complex character into a song.
是的，我想你可以在那些歌曲中听到它，比如“I'm Looking Through You”。只是愿意将他的不安全感、嫉妒和几乎恶意融入到一首歌中，当然，迪伦非常愿意这样做，将一个更复杂的角色融入到一首歌中。
I think you could see even earlier in “I’ll Follow the Sun,” that sense of just keep on keeping on, just a sense of a troubadour with a guitar who’s just going to keep playing and will never get too attached to anybody.
我想你甚至可以在《I'll Follow the Sun》中看到，那种继续坚持下去的感觉，就像一个拿着吉他的游吟诗人，会继续演奏，永远不会太依恋任何人。
I think maybe he gets a little bit of Dylan into his repertoire there.
我想也许他的曲目中有一点迪伦的影子。
I think you see quite a lot of Dylan.
我想你见过很多迪伦。
It’s most often talked about in terms of Dylan’s influence on John, but I think Paul was the first to get into Dylan and introduce Dylan to the others.
人们最常谈论的是迪伦对约翰的影响，但我认为保罗是第一个进入迪伦并向其他人介绍迪伦的人。
Do you hear any Dylan in “Hey Jude”?
你在《Hey Jude》中听到过迪伦的声音吗？
I don’t.
我不知道。
Just making the song long, right?
只是把歌弄长了，对吧？
This is the era Blonde on Blonde is coming.
这是金发女郎对金发女郎的时代即将到来。
Ohh, I see that point.
哦，我明白这一点。
Something about the cascading —
关于级联的一些事情 ——
“Desolation Row.”
“荒凉行。”
— extension.
- 扩大。
Yes.
是的。
I do think that cascading extension — it’s very different from “Desolation Row” or those long songs in that it’s not one long song, but neither is it one song welded onto another because in the first part of the song, he’s foreshadowing it when he says, “Nah, nah, nah, nah, yeah.
我确实认为级联扩展 ——它与“Desolation Row”或那些长歌有很大不同，因为它不是一首长歌，但也不是一首歌曲焊接到另一首歌曲上，因为在歌曲的第一部分，他在说“不，不，不，不，是的”时就预示着它。
Hey, Jude.” He’s giving you a little hint of what’s to come.
嘿，裘德。”他正在给你一些即将发生的事情的暗示。
Part of what makes that song such an incredible achievement is, we’re moving into another chapter, but we’re taking what was planted in the first chapter with us so that it actually feels integrated even as it takes off like a rocket.
这首歌取得如此令人难以置信的成就的部分原因是，我们正在进入另一个章节，但我们正在把第一章中植入的内容带入我们身边，这样即使它像火箭一样起飞，它实际上也感觉是整合的。
What’s the Indian influence on “Hey Jude”?
印度对《Hey Jude》有何影响？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
What is the Indian influence on “Hey Jude”?
印度对《Hey Jude》有何影响？
I might have written about that and completely forgotten it.
我可能已经写过这件事，但完全忘记了。
There’s something in your book, and you could express it —
你的书中有一些东西，你可以表达出来 ——
You tell me.
你告诉我。
— better than I could, but again, the way the vocals develop reminds me of some parts of South Indian Carnatic music.
——比我能做的更好，但是，声音的发展方式再次让我想起了南印度卡纳提克音乐的某些部分。
Paul always had more interest in Indian music than he let on.
保罗对印度音乐的兴趣总是比他表现出来的要大。
You hear this in the guitar solo on “Taxman,” which, of course, is Paul, not George, and the Alap.
你可以在《Taxman》的吉他独奏中听到这一点，当然，这是保罗，而不是乔治，还有阿拉普。
Yes, I agree.
是的，我同意。
You can hear Paul taking things from Indian music.
你可以听到保罗从印度音乐中汲取灵感。
You can hear it in “I Want to Tell You.” He often contributed Indian-flavored things to George’s songs: “Taxman,” “I Want to Tell You.” He does some wonderful vocal melismas there.
你可以在《我想告诉你》中听到。他经常为乔治的歌曲贡献印度风味的东西：《Taxman》、《I Want to Tell You》。他在那里做了一些美妙的声乐表演。
“Hey Jude” — maybe.
“嘿，裘德” —— 也许吧。
Just the fluidity of the melody might be Indian-influenced.
只是旋律的流畅性可能受到印度的影响。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
There may be other examples in songs that are quite subtle.
歌曲中可能还有其他相当微妙的例子。
This is not John or Paul, but I think you can hear Indian music in songs like “Here Comes the Sun,” George’s song.
这不是约翰或保罗，但我认为你可以在乔治的歌曲“太阳来了”等歌曲中听到印度音乐。
“Here Comes the Sun” — it’s almost like he’d digested and absorbed the influence by that time, and had returned to Western music, but with a subtle .
《太阳来了》——就好像他消化吸收了当时的影响，又回到了西方音乐，只不过带着微妙的……。
.
。
.
。
Those rhythms are quite .
那些节奏相当。
.
。
.
。
those “da-da-da, da-da-da” and the fluidity of the melodic line.
那些“da-da-da，da-da-da”和旋律线的流动性。
I’m really fascinated by how the Indian influences worked themselves into Beatles’ music in non-obvious ways as well as the more overt ways.
我真的很着迷于印度的影响如何以非显而易见的方式以及更明显的方式融入披头士乐队的音乐中。
Or an obvious way is the song, “Cosmically Conscious,” which, I’m sure you know, is written in 1968, though it doesn’t come out until, what?
或者一个明显的方式是歌曲《Cosmically Conscious》，我相信你知道，这首歌写于 1968 年，尽管它直到什么时候才问世？
The mid ’90s on Paul’s Off the Ground album.
90 年代中期 Paul 的 Off the Ground 专辑。
That’s a wonderful song.
这是一首美妙的歌曲。
Do you think it would have been better as a Beatles’ song?
你认为这首歌如果作为甲壳虫乐队的歌曲会更好吗？
You’ve got me there.
你已经找到我了。
I actually didn’t know that song.
其实我不知道那首歌。
Your Paul nerdery has exceeded mine.
你的保罗书呆子程度超过了我。
My Paul nerdery is hard to beat.
我的保罗书呆子精神很难被击败。
No surprise to me.
我并不感到惊讶。
It’s a great song.
这是一首很棒的歌曲。
It’s online.
它在线。
“Cosmically Conscious.”
“具有宇宙意识。”
You hear quite a lot of the Indian influence in his Fireman albums as well, from the ’90s.
从 90 年代开始，您在 Fireman 专辑中也能听到很多印度的影响。
It obviously stayed with him at quite a deep level.
显然，这件事深深地印在了他的心里。
He wasn’t doing that just to signal, “I’m hip” anymore.
他这样做不再只是为了发出“我很时髦”的信号。
This is way after that.
这是在那之后的事了。
I think you’re right.
我认为你是对的。
It became a part of his musical soul.
它成为他音乐灵魂的一部分。
The 1968 Beatles version is called “Child of Nature,” written by John.
1968 年披头士乐队的版本被称为“自然之子”，由约翰创作。
It later becomes “Jealous Guy” on John’s Imagine album.
后来它成为约翰的《Imagine》专辑中的“Jealous Guy”。
Do you think it would have been better as a Beatles’ song?
你认为这首歌如果作为甲壳虫乐队的歌曲会更好吗？
I think everything would be better as a Beatles’ song because I think that when they played together, there was just this magic thing that happened.
我认为一切作为披头士乐队的歌曲会更好，因为我认为当他们一起演奏时，就会发生这种神奇的事情。
I think there’s just no question that with Ringo, George, and Paul, it would’ve sounded better.
我认为毫无疑问，如果有林戈、乔治和保罗，听起来会更好。
I’m really glad he turned it into “Jealous Guy.” “Child of Nature” is just a really terrible song.
我真的很高兴他把它变成了“嫉妒的家伙”。 《自然之子》是一首非常糟糕的歌曲。
It obviously has this pretty melody, but it’s so awkwardly gawkish and sentimental.
它显然有这样优美的旋律，但它是如此笨拙和感伤。
“Jealous Guy” is just John at his best in that he was just able to tell the truth in a way that’s very simple.
“嫉妒的家伙”正是约翰的最佳状态，因为他能够以一种非常简单的方式说出真相。
Sometimes, he can write these incredibly surreal, baroque, complicated word pictures, like “I Am the Walrus.” Other times, he could just say, “I’m just a jealous guy” and make the words fit the melody in such a perfect way that it goes straight to your heart.
有时，他可以写出这些令人难以置信的超现实、巴洛克式、复杂的文字图片，比如“我是海象”。其他时候，他可以只是说，“我只是一个嫉妒的人”，然后让歌词与旋律完美契合，直达你的内心。
He always bypasses the music altogether.
他总是完全绕过音乐。
So, “Jealous Guy” is one of his greatest solo songs.
所以，“Jealous Guy”是他最伟大的独唱歌曲之一。
On the optimality of the Beatles split
关于披头士乐队分裂的最优性
This is a very important question, and I think we maybe disagree on this.
这是一个非常重要的问题，我想我们在这一点上可能存在分歧。
If I think of “Junk” written by Paul in ’68, but of course, it appears on the McCartney album in what, 1970?
如果我想到保罗在 68 年写的“垃圾”，但当然，它出现在麦卡特尼的专辑中，是在 1970 年？
George’s “Isn’t It a Pity,” which Paul kept off Beatles albums — I think they’re better on the solo albums.
乔治的《Isn’t It a Pity》，保罗将其保留在披头士乐队的专辑中 —— 我认为它们在个人专辑中表现得更好。
I actually think it was efficient that the Beatles split up when they did.
事实上，我认为披头士乐队的解散是有效率的。
I’m glad they did.
我很高兴他们这么做了。
I didn’t think that as a kid, but I feel we got more first-quality output and that they would’ve been getting in each other’s way, say, in the ’70 through ’74, ’75 period.
我小时候并不这么认为，但我觉得我们得到了更多一流质量的产出，而且他们会互相妨碍，比如说，在 70 年到 74 年、75 年时期。
Do you disagree?
你不同意吗？
No, I don’t.
不，我不。
All Things Must Pass is a great album, but we never would’ve had it if George was rationed to two cuts per whatever.
《All Things Must Pass》是一张很棒的专辑，但如果乔治每张专辑只能剪辑两次，我们就永远不会拥有它。
That is doubtless true.
这无疑是正确的。
I think the better version, better alternative history might have been George does All Things Must Pass, John does Imagine, and Paul does Ram, and then the next year, they do a Beatles album.
我认为更好的版本，更好的另类历史可能是乔治做《一切都会过去》，约翰做想象，保罗做拉姆，然后第二年，他们做了一张披头士乐队的专辑。
Then the year after that, they do their solo projects, and they come back and do a Beatles album.
然后第二年，他们开始了他们的个人项目，然后他们回来制作了披头士乐队的专辑。
They would be going back and forth, and they did discuss something like that very briefly.
他们会来来回回，他们确实非常简短地讨论过类似的事情。
You see it in the Get Back documentary.
你可以在《回归》纪录片中看到这一点。
I’m kind of glad they didn’t.
我很高兴他们没有这么做。
I think part of the eternal power and resonance of the Beatles’ story is that they are seven years and out.
我认为披头士乐队故事的永恒力量和共鸣部分在于他们已经七岁了。
There’s this incredible narrative tightness to what happens.
所发生的事情有着令人难以置信的叙事紧密度。
They get famous, they change the world, they change music, and then they split at the top of their game.
他们成名了，他们改变了世界，他们改变了音乐，然后他们在各自的巅峰时期分裂了。
I can’t think of many other groups, if any, who split up after recording one of the best albums.
我想不出还有多少其他团体（如果有的话）在录制了一张最好的专辑后就解散了。
Abbey Road is the last album they record, right?
Abbey Road 是他们录制的最后一张专辑，对吗？
It’s not like they’ve just declined in form, and they’re thinking, “Well, we’re not that good anymore.
这并不是说他们只是状态下降了，他们在想，“好吧，我们不再那么好了。
We’ve got to split up.” Which is what most groups do.
我们得分手了。”这是大多数团体所做的。
They’re making this really, the first album of the ’70s, and then they split up.
他们正在制作这确实是 70 年代的第一张专辑，然后他们就分手了。
They split up after “The End,” at the end of a medley.
他们在“The End”之后在混合泳结束时分手了。
I think the god of narrative just said, “This is the way it shall be.”
我认为叙事之神刚刚说过：“事情就应该这样。”
I’m very glad that they didn’t then dribble on, as you say, reforming and forming, getting back together, maybe getting another member in, maybe someone leaves.
我很高兴他们没有像你说的那样继续改革和组建，重新聚在一起，也许再加入另一名成员，也许有人离开。
All that narrative junk that most bands go through — they didn’t do that.
大多数乐队都经历过的所有叙事垃圾——他们没有这样做。
They just exploded, and then they flamed out.
它们刚刚爆炸，然后就熄火了。
There’s this free rider problem, which they already had toward the end, that if you’re getting back together again, you save your best songs for your solo album.
有一个搭便车的问题，他们在最后已经遇到了这个问题，如果你们再次复合，你会把最好的歌曲保存到你的个人专辑中。
Maybe George was doing a bit of that.
也许乔治正在做一些这样的事情。
Yes, I think that’s right.
是的，我认为这是对的。
All Things Must Pass — he had that at the sessions, and you see him rehearsing it with the others during Get Back, and it’s sometimes said John and Paul should have realized how great that song was, “Isn’t It a Pity.” I actually think it was George thinking, “No, I’m going to keep that one for my solo album.” So, you’re right.
All Things Must Pass（一切都会过去）——他在录音中就做到了这一点，你可以看到他在《归来》中与其他人一起排练，有时有人说约翰和保罗应该意识到这首歌有多么伟大，“这不是一个遗憾吗？”我实际上认为乔治在想，“不，我要把那张保留在我的个人专辑中。”所以，你是对的。
There would’ve been this divided loyalty for all of them, naturally.
当然，他们所有人都会有这种分裂的忠诚度。
It’s a great point.
这是一个很好的观点。
Is there a great unreleased Beatles track or not?
甲壳虫乐队是否有一首很棒的未发行曲目？
Unreleased now?
现在未发售？
No.
不。
Unreleased during their tenure.
在其任职期间未发布。
All the demos have come out, but is there one where you hear it and you think, “My goodness, they should have put that one on one of the albums?” I don’t have a strong candidate.
所有的小样都已经出来了，但是有没有一个你听到它后你会想，“天哪，他们应该把它放在一张专辑里？”我没有强有力的候选人。
I think my lead would be, “What’s the New Mary Jane,” that if you had given Paul his way with it over the course of a week, he might have turned it into something great, even though it’s a John song.
我想我的主角是“什么是新的玛丽·简”，如果你在一周内让保罗按照他的方式去做，他可能会把它变成伟大的东西，即使这是一首约翰的歌。
But I don’t have a clear nomination.
但我没有明确的提名。
Do you?
你？
I like “Come and Get It.” I don’t think there’s a truly great song that should have been released.
我喜欢“来吧，得到它”。我不认为有一首真正伟大的歌曲应该被发行。
Some of the songs that — just to refer to our previous bit about that — ended up in solo albums, like “Maybe I’m Amazed.” Not “Maybe I’m Amazed,” but “Backseat of My Car” were floating around and maybe they could have been on one of the final albums, but —
有些歌曲 —— 只是参考我们之前的一些内容 —— 最终出现在个人专辑中，比如“也许我很惊讶”。不是“也许我很惊讶”，而是“我车的后座”在流传，也许它们本可以出现在最后一张专辑中，但是 -
“ Better” is a pure Paul song, I think.
我认为“更好”是一首纯粹的保罗歌曲。
Just Paul and Linda deeply in love, and John and George would get in the way.
只有保罗和琳达深爱着，约翰和乔治会妨碍他们。
Yes.
是的。
That incredible sense of defiance — it really becomes about the breakup in a sense.
那种令人难以置信的反抗感 ——从某种意义上说，它真的变成了分手。
I don’t really think so.
我真的不这么认为。
I think it goes to, one of the extraordinary things about them is that they had incredible taste, and they were very good at judging their own work.
我认为他们的非凡之处之一就是他们具有令人难以置信的品味，并且非常善于判断自己的作品。
If you listen to the demos that get released and the offcuts, you very rarely think, “That song should have been in an album.” As you do with Dylan, for instance.
如果你听已发行的小样和边角料，你很少会想，“那首歌应该出现在专辑中。”例如，就像你对迪伦所做的那样。
You often think, “Well, ‘Blind Willie McTell’ obviously should have been on an album.”
你经常会想，“嗯，《盲人威利·麦克特尔》显然应该出现在一张专辑中。”
You don’t really get that with the Beatles, and you also never think, “Oh, that earlier take should have been the album cut,” or you very rarely think that.
你在甲壳虫乐队中并没有真正理解这一点，你也永远不会想，“哦，早期的版本应该是专辑剪辑的，”或者你很少这么想。
They pretty much had a perfect record of choosing the best cut and the best songs for each album.
他们几乎拥有为每张专辑选择最佳剪辑和最佳歌曲的完美记录。
How good is “Free as a Bird”?
《像鸟一样自由》有多好？
I quite like it.
我非常喜欢它。
All those post-Beatles songs — there’s a poignancy to them, and I like George’s playing, and I like Paul’s middle eight, actually, on that song.
所有那些后披头士乐队的歌曲都有一种辛酸，我喜欢乔治的演奏，实际上，我喜欢保罗在那首歌中的中八。
Is it a song that I really need to listen to?
这是一首我真的需要听的歌吗？
Not really.
并不真地。
Do you like it?
你喜欢它？
I like it.
我喜欢它。
One of my hypotheses is that if you had had a Beatles reunion, it would’ve sounded — that is a Beatles reunion in a sense — a lot like “Free as a Bird,” which is Paul completely in charge.
我的一个假设是，如果你有披头士乐队的重聚，听起来会是“某种意义上的披头士重聚”，很像“像鸟一样自由”，这是保罗完全负责的。
The others contribute bits.
其他人贡献位。
Paul might even, in terms of vocals, subordinate himself to the others, but it would be fairly artificial, as is “Now and Then,” which I also like, but it doesn’t thrill me.
就声音而言，保罗甚至可能让自己服从于其他人，但这会相当做作，就像我也喜欢的“现在和那时”，但它并不让我兴奋。
I don’t sit down and think I need to hear “Now and Then.” Maybe I feel that now and then, but I think that is a template for the Beatles reunion — Paul being the boss and pretending he’s being subordinate.
我不会坐下来思考我需要听“时不时”。也许我偶尔会有这样的感觉，但我认为这是披头士重聚的模板——保罗是老板，假装自己是下属。
I agree, and I think this points us to one of the fundamental truths about the Beatles, which I talk about in the book, which is, the music was really rooted in the personal chemistry between them.
我同意，我认为这向我们指出了关于披头士乐队的基本事实之一，我在书中谈到了这一点，那就是，音乐确实植根于他们之间的个人化学反应。
It wasn’t just that they had these talents and abilities, and then they bring the talents and abilities together, and they collaborate, and they make something really good.
这不仅仅是因为他们拥有这些才能和能力，然后他们将这些才能和能力结合在一起，他们合作，他们做出了真正好的东西。
It was spending time together and knowing each other intimately that created this extraordinary music.
正是在一起度过的时光和彼此的亲密了解创造了这种非凡的音乐。
This is why the model of them going apart and then coming back together, getting into a studio and leaving and never seeing each other again for a year, would’ve been very unlikely to work.
这就是为什么他们分开然后又在一起，进入工作室然后离开，一年之内再也没有见面的模式不太可能奏效。
They needed to be in this intense hothouse atmosphere where they’re present, particularly John and Paul.
他们需要身处这种激烈的温室氛围中，尤其是约翰和保罗。
When John and Paul were not in physical proximity to each other, they just found it much harder to have a creative connection.
当约翰和保罗的身体距离不近时，他们发现很难建立创造性的联系。
The creativity and the personal relationship are inextricable for those two.
创造力和个人关系对这两个人来说是密不可分的。
Do you agree with the common view that in 1969, something very bad and damaging happens between John and Paul, and John becomes so upset or hurt by Paul?
你是否同意普遍的观点，即 1969 年，约翰和保罗之间发生了一些非常糟糕和具有破坏性的事情，约翰变得如此沮丧或被保罗伤害？
Do you think that’s true?
你认为这是真的吗？
If so, what was the reason?
如果有，原因是什么？
I don’t think there is a thing, really.
我不认为有什么，真的。
I don’t think Paul hurt John in any kind of concrete way.
我不认为保罗以任何具体的方式伤害了约翰。
John talks about being wounded, but nobody’s quite sure what he means by that, even Yoko.
约翰谈到受伤，但没有人很清楚他的意思，甚至连洋子也不例外。
When Yoko was interviewed by Philip Norman — I’m not sure if it’s the ’80s or ’90s, she was like, “John used to talk about how Paul had hurt him more than anyone else in the world, but I was never sure what he was talking about.
当洋子接受菲利普·诺曼（Philip Norman）采访时——我不确定现在是 80 年代还是 90 年代，她说，“约翰曾经谈论保罗如何伤害他，比世界上任何人都严重，但我从来不确定他在说什么。
I couldn’t work it out.”
我无法解决这个问题。”
I think there was a pivotal moment.
我认为有一个关键时刻。
I really think that India was the turning point, and the aftermath of India was the point at which something inside John snapped.
我真的认为印度是一个转折点，而印度事件的后果正是约翰内心的某些东西崩溃的时刻。
John was always on the verge of snapping because he had this incredibly volatile personality.
约翰总是处于崩溃的边缘，因为他的性格极其反复无常。
His childhood was just wild, so difficult and unstable.
他的童年是疯狂的、艰难的、不稳定的。
So, he was plagued by insecurities and all sorts of personality problems.
因此，他受到了不安全感和各种人格问题的困扰。
He goes into India feeling very close to Paul, very close to the others.
他进入印度后，感觉与保罗非常亲近，与其他人也非常亲近。
He comes out of it quite bitter and angry.
他从这件事中走出来非常痛苦和愤怒。
There’s an element of a wildness to him and a malignancy that wasn’t as prominent before and certainly hadn’t been for a few years.
他身上有一种狂野的元素，还有一种以前不那么突出的恶毒元素，而且肯定已经有几年了。
It had actually been relatively calm couple of years previously.
事实上，几年前，这里一直相对平静。
Something happens around then, but I think it happened inside John’s head.
那时发生了一些事情，但我认为它发生在约翰的脑海里。
I don’t think there was a concrete thing that happened.
我认为没有发生任何具体的事情。
I think it was just the way he was feeling, and particularly the way he was feeling about his relationship with Paul.
我认为这就是他的感受，尤其是他对与保罗的关系的感受。
He started to feel, “I’m never going to be as close to Paul as I would like to be.”
他开始觉得，“我永远不会像我希望的那样与保罗亲近。”
I think he had this vision of them as completely wrapped up in a personal and creative relationship in which he could be blissfully happy.
我认为他对他们的愿景是完全沉浸在个人和创造性的关系中，在这种关系中他可以幸福快乐。
I think during India, for whatever reason, perhaps because he was just spending a lot of time meditating and actually by himself thinking.
我想在印度期间，无论出于什么原因，也许是因为他只是花了很多时间冥想，实际上是自己思考。
Then Paul goes home, and he’s bereft because he spends the last few weeks by himself.
然后保罗回家了，他感到很失落，因为最后几周他都是一个人度过的。
I think that tips him over into a personal crisis, and out of that comes “Blues” and “I’m So Tired,” some of those miserable songs, which afterwards he said, “I really meant those songs.”
我认为这让他陷入了个人危机，由此产生了“Blues”和“I’m So Tired”等一些悲惨的歌曲，后来他说，“我真的是说那些歌。”
“Sexy Sadie” too.
还有“性感的萨迪”。
“Sexy Sadie.” He starts taking a lot more drugs.
“性感的萨迪。”他开始服用更多的药物。
He gets drunk a lot, splits up with Cynthia in a horrible way, gets together with Yoko.
他经常喝醉，以可怕的方式与辛西娅分手，然后与洋子在一起。
So, I think that is the turning point.
所以，我认为这是一个转折点。
You mentioned what good taste the Beatles had, and I agree with that.
你提到披头士乐队有多么好的品味，我同意这一点。
Why is it they were not better judges of talent at Apple Records?
为什么他们没有更好地判断苹果唱片公司的人才？
Other than Badfinger, it seems pretty weak to me.
除了Badfinger之外，我觉得其他的都很弱。
And Badfinger’s best song was written by Paul.
Badfinger 最好的歌曲是保罗写的。
There’s James Taylor, Billy Preston, Mary Hopkins.
其中有詹姆斯·泰勒、比利·普雷斯顿、玛丽·霍普金斯。
I agree they’re not heavyweights, but were they turning away great talents?
我同意他们不是重量级人物，但他们是否拒绝了伟大的人才？
They would’ve had loads of applicants, but I don’t know if there was a good filtering process, because there was no process whatsoever at Apple.
他们会有大量的申请者，但我不知道是否有一个好的过滤流程，因为苹果没有任何流程。
In a way, that might have been the problem.
在某种程度上，这可能就是问题所在。
There was nobody being the stage one filter, so they had a lot of randomness in the process.
没有人担任第一阶段的过滤器，因此他们在这个过程中有很多随机性。
On collaborations
关于合作
If Paul was so upset about the Phil Spector arrangement of “The Long and Winding Road” with all the strings, why did he play, more or less, the same arrangement in concert for so many years?
如果保罗对菲尔·斯佩克特用所有弦乐改编的《漫长而曲折的路》感到如此不安，那么为什么他这么多年在音乐会上或多或少地演奏相同的改编呢？
I agree.
我同意。
It’s a pretty good string arrangement.
这是一个非常好的弦乐编排。
You’re right, he plays it with taking the best melodic phrase from that string arrangement from Phil Spector.
你是对的，他演奏这首曲子时采用了菲尔·斯佩克特 (Phil Spector) 的弦乐编排中最好的旋律乐句。
I think he was upset at Spector just more generally for having the arrogance to come in and change the Beatles’ music in any way without Paul’s permission.
我认为他对斯佩克特感到更普遍的是，他在未经保罗许可的情况下傲慢地进来并以任何方式改变了披头士乐队的音乐。
Paul hated anybody who was going to mess around with the Beatles and his music without his say so.
保罗讨厌任何未经他同意而擅自破坏披头士乐队和他的音乐的人。
I understand why he was angry, but I think you’re right.
我理解他为什么生气，但我认为你是对的。
I think in that case, Spector did a good job.
我认为在这方面，斯佩克特做得很好。
What was Paul like as a collaborator with Denny Laine in Wings?
保罗在《Wings》中与丹尼·莱恩合作时感觉如何？
It’s a difficult relationship.
这是一种困难的关系。
Denny Laine was a good singer, decent guitarist, but he obviously was not a talent anywhere on the same scale as Paul or as John or indeed of George.
丹尼·莱恩是一位出色的歌手，不错的吉他手，但他显然不是保罗或约翰甚至乔治那样的天才。
Of course, Paul was an ex-Beatle, there was always this inbuilt imbalance, but he did stick with him all the way through the ’70s until the very early 1980s, so it was an enduring musical collaboration, if not an equal one.
当然，保罗是前披头士乐队成员，总是存在这种内在的不平衡，但他确实一直与保罗一起度过了整个 70 年代，直到 1980 年代初，所以这是一次持久的音乐合作，即使不是平等的合作。
There was also this question of the money.
还有钱的问题。
Denny was being paid by Paul rather than them both getting royalties.
保罗付钱给丹尼，而不是他们俩都获得版税。
Although Paul did co-write “Mull of Kintyre” with him.
尽管保罗确实与他共同创作了《Mull of Kintyre》。
I don’t know how much of “Mull of Kintyre” was contributed by Denny, but that might have been Paul letting Denny in as it was.
我不知道“Mull of Kintyre”有多少是丹尼贡献的，但这可能是保罗让丹尼进来的。
“No Words” they co-wrote on Band on the Run.
他们在《Band on the Run》中共同创作了《No Words》。
I think I can hear which is the Denny part and which is the Paul part.
我想我能听出哪个是丹尼的部分，哪个是保罗的部分。
The Paul part just makes the song become magical.
保罗的部分让这首歌变得神奇。
The Denny part is good, but I wonder how that was for Denny.
丹尼的部分很好，但我想知道丹尼的感觉如何。
To say, “Look, here’s my song.” Then Paul takes it and just takes it to another level.
说：“看，这是我的歌。”然后保罗接受了它，并将其提升到了另一个层次。
I agree.
我同意。
I do think the result is really beautiful and a really underrated song from Paul’s post-Beatles career.
我确实认为结果真的很漂亮，也是保罗后披头士职业生涯中一首被低估的歌曲。
What was John like as a collaborator with Harry Nilsson?
作为哈里·尼尔森的合作者，约翰是什么样的？
He was very professional and workmanlike, which is slightly surprising, but in a sense, not surprising because he’d grown up as a recording artist in the Abbey Road Studio where everything ran like clockwork.
他非常专业、熟练，这有点令人惊讶，但从某种意义上说，这并不奇怪，因为他是在艾比路录音室长大的，那里的一切都像发条一样运转。
Harry Nilsson said he was always in the studio in the morning then, saying, “Right, let’s get to work.” They did work, but then in the afternoon or the evening, they would go crazy and go on drinking bouts and take drugs.
哈里·尼尔森说，他早上总是在工作室，说：“好吧，我们开始工作吧。”他们确实工作，但到了下午或晚上，他们就会发疯，继续酗酒、吸毒。
I think he was a pretty efficient and professional producer.
我认为他是一位非常高效且专业的制片人。
I’m not sure they produced great work together.
我不确定他们一起创作了出色的作品。
What was Paul like collaborating with his brother, Mike McGear?
保罗与他的兄弟迈克·麦吉尔 (Mike McGear) 合作感觉如何？
People have forgotten about that album somehow, but it’s quite interesting.
人们不知何故已经忘记了这张专辑，但它很有趣。
I don’t know that it’s good.
我不知道这很好。
Paul is deferring too much.
保罗拖延得太多了。
I think he should have just taken over, but he does, I think, only in the one song called “All My Loving,” which sounds quite like Paul, and the title itself tells you something.
我认为他应该刚刚接管，但我认为，他只在一首名为“All My Loving”的歌曲中做到了，这听起来很像保罗，而标题本身就告诉了你一些东西。
LESLIE: Exactly.
莱斯利：没错。
I think it sounds much more of its time than anything the Beatles did.
我认为这听起来比披头士乐队所做的任何事情都更符合时代潮流。
That’s probably because, as you say, Paul was not really pushing it and perhaps was being a little bit careful not to be the dominant voice in the room with people who he didn’t know very well.
正如你所说，这可能是因为保罗并没有真正推动它，也许是有点小心，不要在房间里与他不太熟悉的人一起成为主导声音。
Perhaps he was eager not to be the big guy in front of his brother.
也许他不想在哥哥面前成为大人物。
I don’t know, I think your answer is as good as any.
我不知道，我认为你的答案是最好的。
On underrated albums
在被低估的专辑中
What do you think is the most underrated Paul album?
你认为保罗最被低估的专辑是哪张？
Paul or Wings or any combination.
保罗或Wings或任何组合。
Ooh.
哦。
I think maybe Venus and Mars, I really like.
我想也许是金星和火星，我真的很喜欢。
I’m trying to think which ones are underrated.
我试图思考哪些被低估了。
A lot of them are underrated.
其中很多都被低估了。
Give me your answer.
给我你的答案。
I would say Red Rose Speedway.
我会说红玫瑰赛道。
Then, I know this is not an album, but YouTube cuts of Wings playing live with Jimmy McCulloch on guitar, I think are generally better than Wings Over America, which is quite good for a live album.
然后，我知道这不是一张专辑，但我认为 Wings 与 Jimmy McCulloch 吉他手现场演奏的 YouTube 剪辑总体上比 Wings Over America 更好，这对于现场专辑来说相当不错。
But to see Jimmy and Paul on YouTube — those are just phenomenal performances.
但在 YouTube 上看到吉米和保罗 - 这些都是非凡的表演。
Songs like “Magneto and Titanium Man” quite come to life on YouTube live, whereas it’s only pretty good on Venus and Mars, I think.
像《Magneto and Titanium Man》这样的歌曲在 YouTube 直播中非常生动，但我认为只有在金星和火星上才比较好听。
Or “Letting Go” or “Call Me Back Again” — they just become phenomenal blues cuts on YouTube.
或者“Letting Go”或“Call Me Back Again” ——它们都成为 YouTube 上非凡的布鲁斯剪辑。
Yes.
是的。
I think the very underrated ones — because very obscure ones — are the Fireman albums, including Rushes, which is this almost totally instrumental album that he records in the wake of Linda’s death.
我认为那些被低估的专辑 ——因为非常不起眼的专辑 —— 是 Fireman 的专辑，其中包括《Rushes》，这张专辑是他在 Linda 去世后录制的几乎完全是器乐专辑。
It is very poignant, and the few words and fragments of recordings from life that you do hear are very moving when you know the context.
这是非常令人心酸的，当你了解上下文时，你所听到的生活中的寥寥几句话和录音片段会非常令人感动。
It’s typically Paul in that.
这就是典型的保罗。
I think it’s one of his most personal and raw albums, and he says very little in it.
我认为这是他最个人化、最原始的专辑之一，他在里面说的很少。
It’s kind of hidden away, and in fact it’s under another name altogether.
它有点隐藏起来，事实上它完全用另一个名字。
I think that’s the fascinating thing about Paul as an artist.
我认为这就是保罗作为艺术家的迷人之处。
If we’re thinking about him in comparison to John, it’s particularly fascinating that Paul is emotionally complex, but with a complexity hidden inside brilliantly simple, powerful pop songs a lot of the time.
如果我们将他与约翰进行比较，就会发现保罗在情感上很复杂，但很多时候，这种复杂性隐藏在极其简单、有力的流行歌曲中，这一点特别令人着迷。
I’m not talking about the Fireman, now; that is a more avant-garde example.
我现在不是在谈论消防员；我在谈论消防员。这是一个比较前卫的例子。
Just something like “Penny Lane.” It seems like this bright breezy pop song, but then you go to “Strawberry Fields,” and it’s obviously radical and weird and odd.
就像“佩妮巷”一样。这看起来像是一首明亮、轻松的流行歌曲，但当你听到“草莓地”时，你会发现它显然是激进、怪异和奇怪的。
There are layers of complexity to Paul’s songs that are not obvious to the naked eye.
保罗的歌曲有很多肉眼不明显的复杂性。
They reward a kind of, as you would put it, Straussian reading.
正如你所说，它们奖励一种施特劳斯式的阅读。
A song like “Oh!
像《哦！
Darling,” which appears to be a love song — I think it’s partly about him splitting up with John as I write about that in the book, but he overloads it with emotion.
亲爱的，”这似乎是一首情歌 ——我认为这在一定程度上是关于他与约翰分手的，正如我在书中写到的那样，但他的情感超载了。
This is something he does in a song now and again.
这是他时不时在歌曲中所做的事情。
He’ll write a simple pop song, and then he’ll turn up the emotion somehow, the way he sings in a way that distorts the song and puts it on and takes it into this strange place, so there is this screaming vocal in “Oh!
他会写一首简单的流行歌曲，然后他会以某种方式调高情感，他的演唱方式会扭曲歌曲，然后把它带入这个奇怪的地方，所以在“哦！
Darling.” I hear in it a lot of anger.
亲爱的。”我从其中听到了很多愤怒。
I don’t just hear love and sadness and loss.
我听到的不仅仅是爱、悲伤和失落。
I hear anger in it or a subcurrent of violence, actually.
实际上，我听到了其中的愤怒或潜在的暴力。
I think a feminist reading of that song would be that Paul is exposing the possessiveness, and sometimes the violent possessiveness, that underlies some of these male rock-and-roll songs about “don’t you leave me, baby.”
我认为女权主义者对这首歌的解读是，保罗揭露了一些男性摇滚歌曲中“不要你离开我，宝贝”的占有欲，有时甚至是暴力的占有欲。
It’s his version of John’s “Run for Your Life.”
这是他对约翰的《逃命》的版本。
Exactly.
正是如此。
COWEN: Hardly anyone knows that.
COWEN：几乎没有人知道这一点。
What’s the most underrated John album?
约翰最被低估的专辑是什么？
I think Walls and Bridges is really pretty good.
我觉得《墙与桥》真的很不错。
With the exception of Imagine and the Plastic Ono Band, I’m not a huge fan of his subsequent albums, but I do think Walls and Bridges and Mind Games are pretty good.
除了《Imagine》和《Plastic Ono Band》之外，我并不是他后续专辑的忠实粉丝，但我确实认为《Walls and Bridges》和《Mind Games》都相当不错。
I would say Mind Games.
我会说智力游戏。
I don’t have strong feelings about them.
我对他们没有强烈的感情。
You would say Mind Games — why?
你可能会说“智力游戏”——“为什么？”
There’s a lot of songs on it, like “Meat City” or “I Know” that seem forgotten, but they’re very good.
里面有很多歌曲，比如《Meat City》或《I Know》，似乎被遗忘了，但它们都非常好。
I think the production is systematically weak, but the songs are excellent.
我认为制作在系统上很薄弱，但歌曲很棒。
If he had brought Paul in, it would’ve been an incredible album, maybe better than Imagine.
如果他把保罗带进来，这将是一张令人难以置信的专辑，也许比《Imagine》还要好。
I don’t feel all of Imagine has worn that well.
我觉得《Imagine》的所有部分都没有那么好用。
I think one of the problems is that — I don’t know if you agree with me on this — I think John lost his voice much sooner than Paul lost the top level of his voice, not unsurprisingly because he’d been screaming in songs and in therapy so much.
我认为问题之一是 —— 我不知道你是否同意我的观点 —— 我认为约翰失声的时间比保罗失声的时间要早得多，这并不奇怪，因为他在歌曲和治疗中经常尖叫。
He had been shredding his vocal chords.
他的声带被撕裂了。
He’d obviously been smoking a lot, he’d been taking drugs, and so on.
显然他抽烟很多，吸毒等等。
I think quite quickly, from the early ’70s onwards, his voice is thinner and, to me, not nearly as powerful.
我想很快，从 70 年代初开始，他的声音就变细了，对我来说，也没有那么有力了。
On the Rock ’n’ Roll album that he makes in 1973 — whatever it is — I think part of the reason it’s not very good is that his voice is just not there anymore.
在他 1973 年制作的摇滚专辑中 ——“不管它是什么”—— 我认为这张专辑不太好的部分原因是他的声音已经不存在了。
It’s no longer this incredible instrument that it was through the ’60s into the very early ’70s.
它不再是 60 年代到 70 年代初那种令人难以置信的乐器了。
There’s not enough diversity of sound on that album.
该专辑中声音的多样性不够。
I feel it was great he did two albums with Phil Spector, but he should have moved on and looked for someone else, and that it kept on sounding the same too much.
我觉得他和菲尔·斯佩克特一起制作了两张专辑很棒，但他应该继续寻找其他人，而且听起来总是一样。
When you do that when you’re doing covers and your voice is somewhat subpar, a lot of things went wrong there.
当你在翻唱时这样做并且你的声音有些欠佳时，很多事情都出了问题。
Yes, I agree.
是的，我同意。
I like John’s contributions to Pussy Cats.
我喜欢约翰对小猫的贡献。
You can debate who did what on Pussy Cats, but “Many Rivers to Cross” and “Subterranean Homesick Blues” — I think of them as much John songs as Harry songs.
你可以争论谁在《小猫》中做了什么，但《Many Rivers to Cross》和《Subterranean Homesick Blues》 ——我认为它们就像约翰的歌曲和哈利的歌曲一样。
That’s debatable, but they’re two of the highlights of his solo career.
这是有争议的，但它们是他个人生涯的两个亮点。
Harry never did anything like those on his own on.
Harry从来没有独自做过类似的事情。
There were little glimpses of John’s brilliance throughout the recordings he made in the ’70s, but overall, I’m just struck by how much he missed that really annoying guy telling him to try this or do that.
在约翰 70 年代录制的唱片中，我们几乎看不到他的才华，但总的来说，我很惊讶他是多么怀念那个让他尝试这个或做那个的非常烦人的家伙。
Or “How about this?” Or “Come on, John, let’s go to work.” And George did too, of course.
或者“这个怎么样？”或者“来吧，约翰，我们去上班吧。”当然，乔治也这么做了。
They spent the last couple of years of the Beatles having a bit of a moan about Paul, but without Paul, they wouldn’t have made some of the incredible music they made at the end of the ’60s.
在披头士乐队的最后几年里，他们对保罗有一些抱怨，但如果没有保罗，他们就不会创作出他们在 60 年代末创作的一些令人难以置信的音乐。
And through the ’70s, they very quickly lose momentum while Paul just tunnels on, not always brilliantly — in fact, his solo and Wings records are erratic — but my God, he’s productive.
整个 70 年代，他们很快就失去了动力，而 Paul 只是继续前进，并不总是出色——事实上，他的独奏和 Wings 唱片不稳定——但天哪，他很有生产力。
He just keeps going.
他只是继续前进。
On male artistic collaborations
论男性艺术合作
Now you’ve studied this one artistic collaboration in great, great detail.
现在你已经非常详细地研究了这一艺术合作。
What do you feel you’ve learned about artistic collaboration in general?
您认为您对艺术合作总体了解了哪些？
How do you now look at other artistic collaborations through a different lens?
您现在如何从不同的角度看待其他艺术合作？
There’s so much to say about that.
对此有很多话要说。
I’m going to narrow the lens a little bit and say I think it’s really interesting that there are very few male romantic but platonic relationships that are very creative.
我要把镜头缩小一点，说我认为这真的很有趣，很少有男性浪漫但柏拉图式的关系非常有创造力。
I think this is a particular type of relationship that you see recurring a few times throughout history, and it often makes a big difference.
我认为这是一种特殊类型的关系，在历史上你会看到它多次出现，而且往往会产生很大的影响。
There’s a big leap forward to some creative or intellectual revolution that happens.
一些创造性或智力革命正在发生巨大的飞跃。
I think it’s distinctive to this relationship where they’re not lovers, they’re not just mates, and they’re not homosexual, but they are two men who have very, very intense feelings for each other, and that feeds into the creativity.
我认为这种关系的独特之处在于，他们不是恋人，他们不仅仅是伴侣，也不是同性恋，但他们是两个对彼此有着非常非常强烈感情的男人，这激发了创造力。
I was thinking about a couple of examples recently.
我最近在思考几个例子。
One is Wordsworth and Coleridge.
其中之一是华兹华斯和柯勒律治。
In some ways, it mirrors John and Paul.
在某些方面，它反映了约翰和保罗。
They’re a couple of years apart.
他们相差几年。
Coleridge is a bit younger.
柯勒律治年轻一点。
They’ve got very different personalities.
他们的性格截然不同。
Coleridge is flamboyant and voluble.
柯勒律治性格浮夸、健谈。
He talks a lot, he’s wild, he takes drugs.
他话很多，他很狂野，他吸毒。
Wordsworth is a little bit more distant and a little bit cooler, a little bit more methodical.
华兹华斯更加疏远一点，冷静一点，更有条理一点。
But they turn each other on.
但他们彼此兴奋。
They spend a lot of time thinking and writing poetry together and really birth the Romantic poetry movement together.
他们花了很多时间一起思考和写诗，真正一起诞生了浪漫主义诗歌运动。
Then the other example I was thinking about — the best 20th-century analogy for John and Paul, I think, is Kahneman and Tversky.
然后我想到的另一个例子——我认为 20 世纪对约翰和保罗最好的类比是卡尼曼和特沃斯基。
If you read Michael Lewis’s book, The Undoing Project, as I have, the similarities are just too strong to ignore.
如果你像我一样读过迈克尔·刘易斯的书《The Undoing Project》，你就会发现其中的相似之处太强烈了，不容忽视。
Here, it’s Tversky who’s this wild font of insight and speech.
在这里，特沃斯基是洞察力和演讲的狂野代表。
Kahneman is a little bit calmer, more reflective, but they’re completely in love with each other.
卡尼曼稍微冷静一些，更善于思考，但他们完全相爱了。
Kahneman said to Michael Lewis, “Well, I’ve been in love and all, but with Amos, I was just rapt.
卡尼曼对迈克尔·刘易斯说：“好吧，我已经恋爱了，但是对于阿莫斯，我只是全神贯注。
I was completely compelled by him.
我完全被他逼迫了。
I was lost.” They just spent hours and hours together, just wanted to be with each other all the time.
我迷路了。”他们只是一起度过了几个小时，只是想一直和对方在一起。
Kahneman’s wife said, “This is much more intense than a marriage.” Of course, when something is really intense like that, it’s going to explode.
卡尼曼的妻子说：“这比婚姻要激烈得多。”当然，当某件事真的如此激烈时，它就会爆炸。
In all these cases, the partnership splinters, and sparks, and falls apart at some point.
在所有这些情况下，伙伴关系都会破裂、火花四射，并在某个时候分崩离析。
Then there’s this great aftermath of sadness.
然后就是悲伤的巨大后果。
It’s inevitable because there are really two ends to a relationship.
这是不可避免的，因为一段关系确实有两端。
You can have a sustainable, steady marriage-type relationship where you love each other in this wonderful, loving, calm way, or you can have this wildly creative, impulsive, dramatic, and volatile relationship, but that can’t last forever.
你可以拥有一种可持续、稳定的婚姻型关系，以这种美妙、充满爱、平静的方式彼此相爱，也可以拥有这种极富创造力、冲动、戏剧性和不稳定的关系，但这不可能永远持续下去。
One thing that struck me is just how few examples there are.
让我印象深刻的一件事是例子太少了。
Another one that occurs to me is Picasso and Braque.
我想到的另一位是毕加索和布拉克。
Obviously, that doesn’t last.
显然，这种情况不会持续太久。
You have a lot of examples where the people do quite different things, like Rodgers and Hammerstein, or Stravinsky with both Balanchine and Diaghilev.
有很多例子，人们做的事情截然不同，比如罗杰斯和哈默斯坦，或者斯特拉文斯基和巴兰钦和佳吉列夫。
Those work, but they’re not competing against each other at all.
这些都有效，但它们根本不相互竞争。
They’re just working together.
他们只是在一起工作。
I think of Jagger-Richards as ultimately a business relationship, where they’re quite happy to give up being creative just to make a lot of money, and it becomes not interesting for 50 years.
我认为 Jagger-Richards 最终是一种商业关系，他们很乐意放弃创意只是为了赚很多钱，而 50 年后它就变得不再有趣。
Exactly.
正是如此。
There’s nothing wrong with that.
这并没有什么问题。
I think Jagger and Richards is much more like a marriage versus a love affair.
我认为贾格尔和理查兹更像是婚姻而不是爱情。
I think they love each other, but they’re not wildly compelled by each other.
我认为他们彼此相爱，但他们并没有被对方强烈地强迫。
I’m not sure they ever were.
我不确定他们曾经是。
They always thought, “Yes, this is the guy I want to make music with.
他们总是想，“是的，这就是我想和他一起创作音乐的人。
He’s obviously great, and our talents fit together.
他显然很棒，而且我们的才能很契合。
Let’s get married.” It was nothing like this intense, jealousy-ridden, tempestuous, conflicted, hot, John-and-Paul relationship.
我们结婚吧。”这与约翰和保罗那种紧张、充满嫉妒、暴躁、冲突、火热的关系完全不同。
I think there’re other examples like Picasso and Braque.
我认为还有其他例子，比如毕加索和布拉克。
I don’t think they were like John and Paul either.
我也不认为他们像约翰和保罗。
They were just partnerships who came together, got on with each other, but turned each other on creatively and then spun apart, and that was it.
他们只是合伙人，走到一起，相处融洽，但创造性地激发了彼此，然后又分道扬镳，仅此而已。
I doubt that Picasso gave Braque much of a thought after they stopped working together, and probably vice versa, whereas John and Paul’s relationship was much deeper.
我怀疑毕加索在他们停止合作后是否对布拉克进行了很多思考，反之亦然，而约翰和保罗的关系要深厚得多。
I think that’s important because, actually, I think the scale of the achievement of what they did together was rooted in that incredibly rich and deep relationship.
我认为这很重要，因为实际上，我认为他们共同取得的成就的规模植根于这种极其丰富和深厚的关系。
It wasn’t just a byproduct or a coincidence.
这不仅仅是副产品或巧合。
It’s striking to me that what to me is the very closest example comes from the same place and broadly the same period, and that’s Monty Python, which is truly collaborative.
令我惊讶的是，对我来说最接近的例子来自同一个地方、大致相同的时期，那就是 Monty Python，它是真正的协作性的。
They compete with each other — whose skit gets to be done.
他们互相竞争——谁的短剧就上演。
They do TV; they do movies.
他们做电视；他们拍电影。
It has a brilliant peak.
它有一个辉煌的巅峰。
At some point, it collapses.
在某个时刻，它崩溃了。
Members have quite different skills, but they’re truly working together.
成员们的技能截然不同，但他们真正在一起工作。
That’s the other British Beatles, I think.
我想那是其他英国披头士乐队。
There’s that wonderful link between them, as well, via George Harrison, who becomes friends with them and funds The Life of Brian.
他们之间也通过乔治·哈里森建立了奇妙的联系，乔治·哈里森与他们成为朋友并资助了“布莱恩的一生”。
I would buy that.
我会买那个。
Of course, it reminds me of this other aspect of the Beatles, which we haven’t touched on.
当然，这让我想起了披头士乐队的另一个方面，我们还没有触及。
It’s another thing that’s so unique about them is that they were a comedy group as well.
他们的另一个独特之处是他们也是一个喜剧团体。
Can you think of any other groups where laughter is so important, where humor is so important?
你能想到还有哪些其他群体中笑声如此重要、幽默如此重要吗？
Again, that’s primarily John and Paul.
再说一次，这主要是约翰和保罗。
They were all funny, right?
他们都很有趣，对吧？
George could be very dryly funny, but that sense of antic, overflowing, childlike glee and humor that runs all the way through the Beatles is John and Paul.
乔治可能非常有趣，但贯穿披头士乐队始终的那种滑稽、溢出、孩子般的欢乐和幽默感是约翰和保罗。
It’s not true of any other group.
对于任何其他群体来说都不是这样。
The link between music and comedy is just so interesting.
音乐和喜剧之间的联系是如此有趣。
Before my last question, let me just plug your book again, John and Paul: A Love Story in Songs.
在我提出最后一个问题之前，让我再次插入你的书《约翰和保罗：歌曲中的爱情故事》。
I loved it.
我喜欢它。
It’s one of those books — I started it, and I didn’t really get up till I finished it.
这是其中一本 —— 我开始读它，直到读完它我才真正起床。
Just read it straight through.
只需直接阅读即可。
That’s great to hear.
很高兴听到这个消息。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
What will you do next?
接下来你会做什么？
I am going to spend the spring and summer talking about John and Paul.
我将在春天和夏天谈论约翰和保罗。
I’m going to love every minute of it.
我会喜欢它的每一分钟。
It is just wonderful to hang out with John and Paul and the Beatles, and a great thing to talk about when there’s lots of other darker stuff going on in the world.
与约翰、保罗和披头士乐队一起出去玩真是太棒了，当世界上还有很多其他黑暗的事情发生时，也是一件很棒的事情。
I’m going to keep writing my newsletter, The Ruffian, my Substack, and I’m going to think about what to write next, and I have no idea.
我会继续写我的时事通讯、The Ruffian、我的 Substack，我会考虑接下来要写什么，但我不知道。
All suggestions welcome.
欢迎所有建议。
Ian Leslie, thank you very much.
伊恩·莱斯利，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。