Hollis Robbins on 19th Century Life and Literature (Ep. 74)
I’m very pleased to be here today with Hollis Robbins, who is one of the leading scholars of African American history and literature.
我很高兴今天能与霍利斯·罗宾斯一起来到这里，他是非裔美国历史和文学领域的顶尖学者之一。
She is also now dean at Sonoma State University.
她现在也是索诺玛州立大学的院长。
Welcome, Hollis.
欢迎，霍利斯。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Opening question: Why were the 1840s the most central and determinative decade in American history?
开场问题：为什么 1840 年代是美国历史上最核心、最具决定性的十年？
Well, the 1840s was a time of change.
嗯，1840 年代是一个变革的时期。
As I’ve said publicly, the 1850s is actually my decade.
正如我公开说过的，1850 年代实际上是我的十年。
I think very deeply about the 1850s widely across the world, what was happening.
我非常深入地思考 1850 年代世界各地所发生的事情。
For me, the 1840s were the decades that opened the door to the decade that I study.
对我来说，1840 年代为我研究的十年打开了大门。
But it’s the decade that saw Frederick Douglass.
但这是见证弗雷德里克·道格拉斯的十年。
It’s the decade that saw the beginnings of the postal reforms.
这是邮政改革开始的十年。
It’s the decade that you see a beginning of a real political understanding that slavery is going to have to end.
在这十年里，你开始真正认识到奴隶制必须结束。
It becomes clear America will be a very large nation, right, for the first time?
很明显，美国将首次成为一个非常大的国家，对吧？
Yes, and you see changes in Europe, revolutions in Europe, that will change the makeup of the United States.
是的，你会看到欧洲的变化、欧洲的革命，这将改变美国的构成。
You see gold being discovered.
你会看到黄金被发现。
Gold is discovered in 1848.
1848 年发现黄金。
You see the end of the Mexican-American War.
你看到了美墨战争的结束。
You see the —
你看到了——
The Mormon decade, right?
摩门教十年，对吗？
It’s the Mormon decade.
这是摩门教十年。
Roads and canals decade.
道路和运河十年。
Yes, you see bridges being built everywhere.
是的，你看到到处都在修建桥梁。
The beginnings of railroads at the end of, again, in the 1850s.
铁路的起源又是在 1850 年代末。
Yes, infrastructure begins to be built, and the United States begins to think of itself as a nation.
是的，基础设施开始建设，美国开始将自己视为一个国家。
One doesn’t want to talk very much about Manifest Destiny, but in fact, that is characteristic of the way we think about the 1840s.
人们不想过多谈论“昭昭天命”，但事实上，这是我们思考 1840 年代的特征。
But it seems no one talks about the 1840s, or am I missing out?
但似乎没有人谈论 1840 年代，还是我错过了？
It’s not a thing to think of that as the seminal decade in American history?
这不是美国历史上具有开创性的十年吗？
Well, because the 1850s were so dominant because of the Fugitive Slave Act, because of the writing of Moby-Dick, even though nobody knew it at the time .
嗯，因为 1850 年代因为《逃亡奴隶法》、因为《白鲸记》的写作而如此占主导地位，尽管当时没人知道。
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because of The Scarlet Letter, Hawthorne’s The Scarlet Letter, because of Uncle Tom’s Cabin that the 1850s is the decade that dominates.
因为《红字》，霍桑的《红字》，因为《汤姆叔叔的小屋》，1850年代是主导的十年。
Why is American literature so blossoming all of a sudden in the 1850s?
为什么美国文学在1850年代突然如此繁荣？
Where was that coming from?
那是从哪里来的？
Well, with Harriet Beecher Stowe, it’s the Fugitive Slave Act.
嗯，哈丽特·比彻·斯托的《逃亡奴隶法》。
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
Is it Hawthorne and Melville’s relationship with each other, provoking each other to write more?
是霍桑和梅尔维尔的关系，激发对方多写吗？
Is it newspapers?
是报纸吗？
Frederick Douglass, a couple of years after escaping in 1845 or writing his narrative in 1845, founds a newspaper, the North Star, because newspaper culture was thriving in the 1840s and 1850s.
弗雷德里克·道格拉斯 (Frederick Douglass) 于 1845 年逃亡或在 1845 年写下自己的叙述几年后，创办了一份报纸《北极星》(North Star)，因为报纸文化在 1840 年代和 1850 年代蓬勃发展。
You see a real print culture in America, and you see novelists responding to that and being published in magazines and in newspapers.
你在美国看到了真正的印刷文化，你看到小说家对此做出回应并在杂志和报纸上发表。
Would there have been a Civil War without a Fugitive Slave Act?
如果没有《逃亡奴隶法》，还会有内战吗？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Because the deep moral and ethical dilemma provoked by the Fugitive Slave Act was that an individual had to choose between their personal morals and helping a fugitive slave escape and being criminalized for that very act.
因为《逃亡奴隶法》引发的深刻的道德和伦理困境是，个人必须在个人道德和帮助逃亡奴隶逃跑以及因此被定罪之间做出选择。
Stowe and others thought that this was unconscionable.
斯托等人认为这是不合情理的。
How could the American government require by law that an individual had to turn somebody in when their Christian beliefs and their ethics said, “No, we’re against slavery, and I’m going to help this person escape”?
当一个人的基督教信仰和道德说“不，我们反对奴隶制，我要帮助这个人逃跑”时，美国政府怎么能通过法律要求一个人必须自首呢？
Harriet Beecher Stowe — she’s also objecting to so many slaves having been bought and sold.
哈丽特·比彻·斯托（Harriet Beecher Stowe）——她也反对买卖如此多的奴隶。
Is that a practice that is being stepped up as the nation becomes more commercial, as there’s more infrastructure, more transportation?
随着国家变得更加商业化、基础设施越来越多、交通越来越发达，这种做法是否正在加强？
I don’t know the data on whether more were bought and sold, but certainly the slave market and the slave economy was such that there was an infrastructure to support buying and selling on a regular basis.
我不知道是否有更多的买卖数据，但奴隶市场和奴隶经济肯定有基础设施来支持定期买卖。
The depictions of slave auctions were by the end of the 1840s and the 1850s common in depictions of slave narratives.
对奴隶拍卖的描述是 1840 年代末和 1850 年代奴隶叙事的常见描述。
What did slave traders try to do to make their slaves acquiesce peacefully into being sold?
奴隶贩子试图做什么来让他们的奴隶和平地默许被出售？
This is actually not my area of expertise particularly.
这实际上不是我特别擅长的领域。
My area of expertise is the literature of slavery.
我的专业领域是奴隶制文学。
But certainly, any kind of psychological torment, any kind of carrots and sticks, blackmail, not feeding slaves well, threats — you name it.
但当然，任何形式的心理折磨、任何形式的胡萝卜加大棒、勒索、不好好喂养奴隶、威胁——凡是你能想到的。
Any kind of manipulation of human beings were inflicted upon the enslaved to cause them to acquiesce.
对人类的任何形式的操纵都是对被奴役者施加的，以使他们默许。
On the impact of Harriet Beecher Stowe
哈丽特·比彻·斯托的影响
Why was Uncle Tom’s Cabin so effective in the fight against slavery?
为什么《汤姆叔叔的小屋》在反对奴隶制方面如此有效？
It was a best seller.
这是一本畅销书。
Ostensibly, President Lincoln once said this was responsible for the Civil War.
表面上，林肯总统曾经说过，这就是内战的原因。
Why this novel?
为什么写这本小说？
Well, have you read it?
嗯，你读过吗？
I have read it.
我已经读过了。
How old were you when you first read it?
你第一次读这本书时几岁？
Fifty-seven.
五十七。
Oh!
哦！
How old are you now?
你现在几岁了？
Fifty-seven.
五十七。
You hadn’t read it before that?
你之前没读过吗？
Correct.
正确的。
I’d looked at some of it, I think, in high school, but not really.
我想，我在高中的时候就看过其中的一些内容，但实际上并没有。
That’s so interesting.
太有趣了。
Actually, when John Updike reviewed our version in the New Yorker magazine, he confessed that he had never read it before either.
事实上，当约翰·厄普代克在《纽约客》杂志上审阅我们的版本时，他承认他以前也从未读过它。
He also confessed to having put down our version because our annotations, he said, were too distracting, which I thought was fun.
他还承认放弃了我们的版本，因为他说我们的注释太分散注意力，而我认为这很有趣。
But, again, why do you think you didn’t read it?
但是，话又说回来，你为什么认为你没有读过它呢？
No one told me to.
没有人告诉我这样做。
It is, in fact, one of the best American novels and one of the three or four best of the 19th century.
事实上，它是美国最好的小说之一，也是 19 世纪三四部最好的小说之一。
Yet it’s become a schoolkid’s thing that you’re supposed to read, but nobody ever does.
然而，它已经成为小学生的东西，你应该读，但没有人这样做。
It’s gripping.
这很扣人心弦。
It’s manipulative and interesting in informative ways.
它以信息丰富的方式具有操控性和趣味性。
You’ve answered the question, then.
那么你已经回答了这个问题。
It’s manipulative, interesting.
这是操纵性的，有趣的。
What Stowe’s comparative expertise is, is creating these characters that live and jump out of the page.
斯托的比较专长是创造这些活生生、跳出书页的角色。
I wouldn’t call Uncle Tom a character that jumps out of the page, but his stalwart forthrightness, his devotion, his clarity of thought about what is right and what is wrong guide and ground the novel.
我不会称汤姆叔叔是一个跳出书页的人物，但他坚定的直率、他的奉献精神、他对是非的清晰思考引导和奠定了这部小说的基础。
But we have Little Eva, who’s patterned a little bit on Dickens’s Little Nell from The Old Curiosity Shop.
但我们有小伊娃，她有点模仿狄更斯《老古玩店》中的小内尔。
We have Topsy, who was just a sprite, an imp, sui generis, really extraordinary character.
我们有托普西，他只是一个精灵，一个小鬼，自成一体，非常非凡的人物。
We have Simon Legree, who everybody knows as the avatar of a cruel overseer.
我们有西蒙·勒格里（Simon Legree），每个人都知道他是残酷监督者的化身。
Did the book convince more women or more men to oppose slavery?
这本书是否说服了更多女性或更多男性反对奴隶制？
Well, the point of the book was to appeal to white women, frankly, to white Christian mothers in the North who could imagine their own child being taken from them.
好吧，坦率地说，这本书的目的是吸引白人女性，吸引北方的白人基督教母亲，她们可以想象自己的孩子被从她们身边夺走。
In the first chapter of the book, Eliza, who is a light-skinned enslaved woman in Kentucky, learns that her son is going to be taken away from her, is going to be sold.
在本书的第一章中，伊丽莎是肯塔基州的一名浅肤色奴隶妇女，她得知她的儿子将被从她身边带走，将被出售。
She flees in the middle of the night and, in that famous scene, crosses the Ohio River on ice floes, which is a signal moment in American literary history.
她在半夜出逃，在那个著名的场景中，她在浮冰上横渡俄亥俄河，这是美国文学史上的一个标志性时刻。
In all of the illustrations and the paintings of this book, she is very, very light-skinned.
在这本书的所有插图和绘画中，她的肤色非常非常浅。
If you take a look at any of these illustrations, white women readers would take a look and imagine themselves in that position.
如果你看一下这些插图中的任何一个，白人女性读者都会看一眼并想象自己处于那个位置。
Harriet Beecher Stowe was Calvinist.
哈丽特·比彻·斯托是加尔文主义者。
Is this book actually a Calvinist book in terms of its implicit theology?
就其隐含的神学而言，这本书实际上是加尔文主义的书吗？
No. This has to do a lot with Harriet Beecher Stowe’s relationship with her father, Lyman Beecher, who was a Calvinist preacher and whose doctrinal beliefs were so strong that he basically told his elder daughter, Catharine, that she was not going to be reunited with her fiancé in heaven because he hadn’t been saved, which is a cruel thing to say after your daughter loses a fiancé.
不。这与哈丽特·比彻·斯托和她父亲莱曼·比彻的关系有很大关系。莱曼·比彻是一位加尔文主义传教士，其教义信仰非常坚定，以至于他基本上告诉他的大女儿凯瑟琳，她不会在天堂与她的未婚夫团聚，因为他还没有得救，在你的女儿失去未婚夫之后说这是一件残酷的事情。
Then saying, “Sorry, you’re not even going to be reunited in heaven.”
然后说：“对不起，你们甚至都不会在天堂重聚了。”
Harriet thought that that was a little bit too cruel, and so you see her Calvinism in her novel tempered a little bit by emotion.
哈丽特认为这有点太残酷了，所以你在小说中看到她的加尔文主义受到了情感的影响。
She thought —
她想——
There’s free will in the novel, it seems.
小说里似乎有自由意志。
And there’s free will.
并且有自由意志。
Are there still Calvinists in American politics today?
今天的美国政治中还有加尔文主义者吗？
Well, it’s a good question.
嗯，这是一个好问题。
Do you think most of the candidates running for president today would even be able to say what Calvinism is?
你认为今天竞选总统的大多数候选人都能说出什么是加尔文主义吗？
I tweeted this the other day.
前几天我发了推文。
Mayor Pete perhaps, right?
也许是皮特市长吧？
Perhaps, but can most Americans tell the difference between doctrines of Calvinism, Lutheranism, Methodism, Episcopalian?
也许吧，但大多数美国人能区分加尔文主义、路德教、卫理公会、圣公会的教义之间的区别吗？
I doubt it.
我对此表示怀疑。
Is the portrayal of Uncle Tom in the novel in fact racist, as is sometimes alleged?
小说中汤姆叔叔的形象是否确实像有时所声称的那样具有种族主义色彩？
Well, Uncle Tom is the racial epithet and has been almost from the beginning of the novel.
嗯，汤姆叔叔是种族绰号，几乎从小说一开始就出现了。
I don’t think he’s racist.
我不认为他是种族主义者。
I think he is a character who works within his belief system as a character and does not fight back.
我认为他是一个在自己的信仰体系内工作并且不反击的人物。
He’s an avatar of nonviolence.
他是非暴力的化身。
Certainly, if you’re going to say that nonviolence and those who espouse it are racist, then you’re going to have a little bit of trouble thinking about where to put Martin Luther King.
当然，如果你要说非暴力和那些拥护非暴力的人是种族主义者，那么你就会在思考如何把马丁·路德·金放在哪里时遇到一些麻烦。
Why does she have this one novel that’s so wonderful and so famous and so full of life just falling off of the page, and then none of her other novels are read at all anymore?
为什么她的这本如此精彩、如此出名、如此充满生机的小说就从书页上掉了下来，然后她的其他小说就再也没有人读了？
Well, Dred is pretty good.
嗯，德雷德很不错。
Or Dred has some good parts and a lot of fat.
或者德雷德有一些好的部位和很多的脂肪。
But the good parts of Dred are great.
但德雷德的优点还是很棒的。
There’s another way of reading Uncle Tom’s Cabin, and that’s to read it through the illustrations, and your edition has a lot of those illustrations.
还有另一种阅读《汤姆叔叔的小屋》的方法，那就是通过插图来阅读，你们的版本有很多这样的插图。
If you read the novel through the illustrations, how it is a different story than just reading it through the text?
如果你通过插图来阅读小说，它与仅通过文字阅读的故事有什么不同？
Well, the biggest message, I would say, of most of the illustrations is to age Tom.
好吧，我想说，大多数插图中最重要的信息是让汤姆变老。
He spends the whole middle part of the novel with Little Eva.
小说的整个中间部分都是他和小伊娃一起度过的。
Skip and I talk about this quite a bit in our introduction to our edition — how this is the central relationship of the book, is Uncle Tom, who has found himself on a plantation, the St. Clare plantation in Louisiana, and sits and talks with this young girl about God, about Jesus, about heaven.
斯基普和我在我们的版本介绍中对此进行了很多讨论——这本书的中心关系是汤姆叔叔，他发现自己身处一个种植园，路易斯安那州的圣克莱尔种植园，坐下来与这个年轻女孩谈论上帝、耶稣和天堂。
Most of the illustrations show the two of them together, show him very old, frankly, to ensure that nobody looking at these two has any sexual feelings one way or the other.
大多数插图都显示他们两个在一起，坦率地显示他很老，以确保没有人看到这两个人有任何性感觉。
She’s always sitting on his knee.
她总是坐在他的膝盖上。
She’s always bouncing in his lap, and she’s putting things in his hair.
她总是在他的腿上跳来跳去，还把东西放在他的头发里。
The two of them are always together, so the illustrations must show him as old.
他们两个总是在一起，所以插图上一定显示他很老。
On depictions of slavery in the movies
论电影中对奴隶制的描写
Now I’d like to turn to modern culture and go through a number of portraits of slavery.
现在我想转向现代文化并浏览一些奴隶制的肖像。
You tell me how accurate or appropriate you think they are.
你告诉我你认为它们有多准确或适当。
The movie 12 Years a Slave.
电影《为奴十二年》。
Some of it was pretty accurate.
其中一些是相当准确的。
I would say the biggest inaccuracy is how close the depiction of the slave quarters was to the main house.
我想说，最大的不准确之处在于奴隶宿舍的描述与主屋的接近程度。
Usually, it was set at such a distance that nobody in the main house would be able to know or think about the fact of slave quarters nearby.
通常，它被设置在这样一个距离，主屋里的任何人都无法知道或想到附近有奴隶宿舍的事实。
The Quentin Tarantino movie Django.
昆汀·塔伦蒂诺的电影《姜戈》。
Django Unchained.
被解放的姜戈.
Yes.
是的。
Well, I don’t think it was designed to be accurate.
好吧，我认为它的设计并不准确。
It was designed to be a fantasy.
它被设计成一个幻想。
It was —
那是——
But the emotional valence — what in it is objectionable or proper?
但情感效价——其中什么是令人反感的或适当的？
That’s a crazy question.
这是一个疯狂的问题。
I don’t think I can answer that.
我想我无法回答这个问题。
Again, it was a response to some movies that you’re probably not going to ask me about from the 1970s — a couple of Italian movies whose names I’m forgetting right now — that tried to depict slavery after Roots in ways that were realistic and suggested that the slave owners .
再说一次，这是对一些你可能不会问我的 1970 年代电影的回应——几部意大利电影，我现在忘记了它们的名字——这些电影试图以现实的方式描绘《根源》之后的奴隶制，并暗示奴隶主……
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that there are people as cruel today as were in the 1850s.
今天的人们和 1850 年代一样残忍。
He’s responding to a kind of film depiction of slavery.
他是在回应某种描述奴隶制的电影。
In his film depiction of slavery, he wants to give more autonomy and more agency to Django.
在他对奴隶制的电影描述中，他想给予姜戈更多的自主权和更多的代理权。
So in that case, I would say there’s a lot of accuracy, then.
所以在这种情况下，我会说有很多准确性。
But if there’s a kind of pornography of violence, which, yes, is used to show slavery as horrible but is nonetheless a kind of pornography of violence which cannot help but stimulate some parts of us which may in some ways enjoy violent movies.
但是，如果有一种暴力色情片，是的，它被用来展示奴隶制的可怕，但它仍然是一种暴力色情片，它不能不刺激我们的某些部分，这些部分可能在某些方面喜欢暴力电影。
Is that itself objectionable?
这本身就令人反感吗？
Well, this was a question that came up in the 1850s, in fact, or perhaps, going back to your question about what was important about the 1840s, after Frederick Douglass’s narrative and after William Wells Brown’s narrative, there was a circulation of a certain kind of pamphlet depicting slavery.
嗯，这是一个在 1850 年代出现的问题，事实上，或者也许，回到你关于 1840 年代重要的问题，在弗雷德里克·道格拉斯的叙述之后和威廉·威尔斯·布朗的叙述之后，出现了某种描述奴隶制的小册子的流通。
There was a concern among abolitionists that some of the depictions of undress and whipping were a kind of pious pornography.
废奴主义者担心，一些对脱衣和鞭打的描述是一种虔诚的色情作品。
They circulated, and you could read tales of bondage and punishment, S&M in a way that there was concern that many people were buying and circulating these slave narratives not for abolitionism but for titillation.
它们流传开来，你可以阅读有关奴役和惩罚、S&M 的故事，但人们担心许多人购买和传播这些奴隶故事不是为了废奴主义，而是为了刺激。
Steven Spielberg’s Amistad, good or bad movie?
史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格的《Amistad》是好电影还是坏电影？
It’s a good movie.
这是一部好电影。
There’s a “but” in your voice.
你的声音里有一个“但是”。
What’s the “but”?
什么是“但是”？
Well, the “but” is that it’s romanticizing that, as typical of films about slavery — and I think Django could be criticized for this, too — only one heroic enslaved person is given agency when everybody else sort of falls away.
好吧，“但是”是，它浪漫化了这一点，作为典型的关于奴隶制的电影——我认为姜戈也可能因此受到批评——当其他人都有点堕落时，只有一个英雄的被奴役者被赋予了代理权。
Cinqué becomes the spokesman for everybody because he’s descended from kings.
Cinqué 成为每个人的代言人，因为他是国王的后裔。
Herman Melville’s short story “Benito Cereno.”
赫尔曼·梅尔维尔的短篇小说《贝尼托·塞雷诺》。
Fantastic and a good depiction.
太棒了，描绘得很好。
Why is it better than all these other options we’ve been discussing?
为什么它比我们一直在讨论的所有其他选项更好？
Because of agency and because of the idea that individuals under enslavement can be heroic, oppressed, manipulative, sneaky humans just like everybody else.
因为能动性，也因为这样一种观念，即被奴役的个人可以像其他人一样成为英雄、受压迫、善于操纵、狡猾的人。
Do Chinese readers have Straussian insights into African American literature?
中国读者对非裔美国文学有施特劳斯式的见解吗？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I was asked to give a keynote speech at an ethnic literature conference a couple of years ago in China.
几年前，我被邀请在中国的一个民族文学会议上发表主题演讲。
Or, actually, about a year and a half ago.
或者，实际上，大约一年半前。
I think they had reached out to me as a white scholar of African American literature with the interest of how to think about ethnic literature in a way that doesn’t necessarily become separatist or doesn’t necessarily require that the individual studying the literature identify with that literature.
我认为他们是作为一名研究非裔美国文学的白人学者来联系我的，他们的兴趣是如何以一种不一定成为分离主义的方式思考种族文学，也不一定要求研究该文学的个人认同该文学。
The questions and thoughts I would get from graduate students and other faculty had a distance about how African American literature, how ethnic literature, should be read.
我从研究生和其他教师那里得到的问题和想法对于如何阅读非裔美国文学、种族文学存在一定的距离。
I’m not sure it was necessarily Straussian, but it was different and more interesting than —
我不确定它一定是施特劳斯式的，但它不同，而且比——
What do they see that we don’t?
他们看到了什么我们看不到的东西？
Do they see it as more conservative or more radical?
他们认为它更保守还是更激进？
Well, different texts in different ways.
嗯，不同的文本有不同的方式。
I think they see the narrowness of what gets studied and why.
我认为他们看到了研究内容的狭隘性以及原因。
I had a really interesting conversation with one scholar about Neil Simon.
我与一位学者就尼尔·西蒙进行了一次非常有趣的对话。
The playwright?
剧作家？
The playwright.
剧作家。
Why don’t we study Neil Simon in graduate school?
我们为什么不在研究生院研究尼尔·西蒙呢？
The questions are just outside the box.
这些问题就在盒子之外。
The questions about African American literature — it was in conversation with a Chinese scholar that I finally saw in all its clarity the ways that Melanie Wilkes and Ashley Wilkes are implicated in the Ku Klux Klan.
关于非裔美国文学的问题——在与一位中国学者的交谈中，我终于清楚地看到了梅兰妮·威尔克斯和阿什利·威尔克斯与三K党的牵连。
This doesn’t get reported or emphasized in posters of Gone with the Wind.
《乱世佳人》的海报中并没有报道或强调这一点。
The Ku Klux Klan — the only person that really stands up the Klan or has nothing to do with the Klan in Gone with the Wind is Scarlett O’Hara.
三K党——《乱世佳人》中唯一真正支持三K党或者与三K党无关的人是斯嘉丽·奥哈拉。
She thinks it’s a ridiculous organization.
她认为这是一个荒谬的组织。
Again, I looked through all the scholarship on Gone with the Wind, which is not a book that I’ve written about until recently, and it’s not emphasized.
我再次浏览了《乱世佳人》的所有学术资料，这不是我最近才写的书，也没有强调。
Part of the reason it’s not emphasized is that Gone with the Wind isn’t taught in African American literature classes, where African American literary scholars would take a look at it and say, “Well, of course, this is about the Klan.” Or at least the second half of the book is about the Klan.
没有强调这一点的部分原因是《飘》没有在非裔美国文学课上教授，非裔美国文学学者会在课上看一下它并说，“嗯，当然，这是关于三K党的。”或者至少这本书的后半部分是关于三K党的。
Most of the scholars who were scholars of the South just push it to the side.
大多数南方学者只是把它推到一边。
I’ve tried reading Margaret Mitchell, but to me it was unreadable.
我曾尝试阅读玛格丽特·米切尔的作品，但对我来说，它是不可读的。
I’m not sure why.
我不知道为什么。
How can you sell me on Gone with the Wind as a novel I should go back to?
你怎么能把《乱世佳人》当作一本我应该回去看的小说来卖给我呢？
I’m not going to sell you on it.
我不会把它卖给你。
Again, like Stowe .
又如斯托。
.
。
.
。
Well, Stowe wrote several other very good books.
斯托还写了其他几本非常好的书。
Mitchell only wrote that one.
米切尔只写了那一篇。
It’s melodramatic and it’s a love story.
这是一个情节剧，也是一个爱情故事。
The last time I taught the film — in a black cinema class several years ago at Johns Hopkins — we began with Gone with the Wind, and we began with Gone with the Wind because all black cinema, at some level, engages with that film.
上次我教这部电影时——几年前在约翰·霍普金斯大学的黑人电影课上——我们从《乱世佳人》开始，我们从《乱世佳人》开始，因为所有黑人电影在某种程度上都与那部电影有关。
It is the foundational film for depictions of slavery against which later films — like 12 Years a Slave, like Django Unchained — have to contend.
这是描绘奴隶制的基础电影，后来的电影——比如《为奴十二年》、《被解放的姜戈》——必须与之抗衡。
On bringing an outsider perspective
关于引入局外人的观点
Now, you’re a white woman studying African American literature.
现在，你是一名研究非裔美国文学的白人女性。
You have a kind of outsider perspective of your own.
你有自己的局外人视角。
What does that help you see that maybe is obscured by other parts of people working in your field?
这可以帮助您看到哪些可能被您所在领域的其他人所掩盖的内容？
I got into the field accidentally because I had read excerpts of a slave narrative that Skip Gates had found in 2001 called The Bondwoman’s Narrative and had excerpted it.
我进入这个领域是偶然的，因为我读过斯基普·盖茨在 2001 年发现的奴隶叙事的节选，名为《邦德女人的叙事》，并摘录了它。
He found it at an auction, or he bought it at an auction.
他是在拍卖会上找到的，或者是他在拍卖会上买的。
It was a manuscript called The Bondwoman’s Narrative by Hannah Crafts.
这是汉娜·克拉夫特斯 (Hannah Crafts) 撰写的一份名为《女邦德的叙述》的手稿。
We didn’t know anything about the author.
我们对作者一无所知。
We didn’t know anything about its date.
我们对它的日期一无所知。
We didn’t know anything about its provenance.
我们对它的起源一无所知。
He went to work, trying to find it through things like what was the ink it was written in?
他去上班，试图通过一些事情来找到它，比如它是用什么墨水写的？
What were the allusions?
其中有哪些典故？
Were there allusions to Uncle Tom?
有暗指汤姆叔叔吗？
Did it fit in with a slave narrative genre launched by Frederick Douglass?
它符合弗雷德里克·道格拉斯发起的奴隶叙事类型吗？
Anyway, he had excerpted it in the New Yorker magazine, and I immediately recognized some of the borrowings or some of the excerpts as borrowings from Charles Dickens’s Bleak House.
无论如何，他在《纽约客》杂志上摘录了这篇文章，我立即认出其中的一些借词或一些摘录是从查尔斯·狄更斯的《荒凉山庄》借来的。
I had been trained as a Dickens scholar at Princeton, or 19th-century American and British literature.
我曾在普林斯顿大学接受过狄更斯学者或 19 世纪美国和英国文学的培训。
Most of the scholars that he had shown this book to hadn’t recognized those echoes.
他向他展示这本书的大多数学者都没有意识到这些回声。
From the very beginning, Skip thought what I brought to the field when I started working with him, and when I began to transition from an American literature scholar to an African American literature scholar, was that I was trained in the very books that most African American writers in the 19th century were themselves reading.
从一开始，斯基普就认为，当我开始与他合作时，当我开始从美国文学学者转变为非裔美国文学学者时，我给这个领域带来的就是我所接受的训练，正是 19 世纪大多数非裔美国作家自己阅读的书籍。
In fact, if you are really going to take 19th-century African American literature seriously, you need to read the books that they were reading.
事实上，如果你真的想认真对待 19 世纪非裔美国文学，你需要阅读他们正在阅读的书籍。
They were reading Dickens, and they were reading Tennyson, and they were reading Carlyle and Wordsworth.
他们在读狄更斯，他们在读丁尼生，他们在读卡莱尔和华兹华斯。
In fact, if you are really going to take 19th-century African American literature seriously, you need to read the books that they were reading.
事实上，如果你真的想认真对待 19 世纪非裔美国文学，你需要阅读他们正在阅读的书籍。
They were reading Dickens, and they were reading Tennyson, and they were reading Carlyle and Wordsworth.
他们在读狄更斯，他们在读丁尼生，他们在读卡莱尔和华兹华斯。
And sonnets also, right?
还有十四行诗，对吗？
And sonnets, and sonnets.
还有十四行诗，十四行诗。
Though the first good African American sonnet writer was Paul Dunbar, and that was much later in the century.
尽管第一位优秀的非裔美国十四行诗作家是保罗·邓巴，但那是在本世纪后期的事了。
Very often black history is brought into American politics rather directly.
黑人历史常常被直接带入美国政治。
But bringing indigenous Native American history — that has very different effects on political discourse.
但引入美洲原住民历史——这会对政治话语产生截然不同的影响。
How does that contrast work?
这种对比是如何发挥作用的？
It’s going to be difficult, I think.
我想这会很困难。
Native American studies is the fastest-growing ethnic studies field in the United States right now — and about time.
美洲原住民研究是美国目前发展最快的种族研究领域——而且是时候了。
After Canada’s Truth in Reconciliation work, I think the Canadian universities’ Native American studies programs are growing.
在加拿大的和解真相工作之后，我认为加拿大大学的美洲原住民研究项目正在增长。
We have one of the best programs here in California at UC Davis.
加州大学戴维斯分校拥有加州最好的项目之一。
I was recently at a conference with a number of humanities deans from around the country.
最近，我参加了与来自全国各地的一些人文学科院长的会议。
We were racking our brains about how we were going to get enough Native American studies scholars to be launching the classes that students are beginning to demand.
我们绞尽脑汁思考如何吸引足够多的美洲原住民研究学者来开设学生开始要求的课程。
There’s a real question of why Native American studies isn’t a program and department at most universities.
一个真正的问题是，为什么美洲原住民研究不是大多数大学的一个项目和系。
I came from Johns Hopkins.
我来自约翰霍普金斯大学。
I don’t think there was a Native American studies scholar in the history or literature department there.
我认为那里的历史或文学系没有美洲原住民研究学者。
Politically, there’s no upside, right?
从政治角度来说，没有什么好处，对吧？
There’s not much of a chance of redemption.
挽回的机会并不大。
There are hardly any good guys, and I mean that word guys literally.
几乎没有好人，我指的是字面上的“好人”这个词。
There’s not any president you can, in a major way, praise for how Native Americans were treated on net.
没有任何一位总统可以在很大程度上赞扬美国原住民在网络上受到的对待。
So it makes everyone look bad, and then you’re not sure what to do about that next, right?
所以这会让每个人看起来都很糟糕，然后你不知道下一步该怎么做，对吗？
That’s part of the issue.
这是问题的一部分。
The other issue is why is there black studies programs at universities is because there were protests that led to them in the 1960s.
另一个问题是，为什么大学里有黑人研究项目，是因为 20 世纪 60 年代的抗议活动导致了这些项目的产生。
There were student demands saying, “We need to study this as a discipline, as a scholarly discipline.
有学生要求说：“我们需要将其作为一门学科、一门学术学科来研究。
We demand a canon.
我们需要一个正典。
We demand professors.
我们需要教授。
We demand funding.”
我们需要资金。”
We haven’t seen that with Native American studies.
我们在美洲原住民研究中还没有看到这一点。
The scholarly infrastructure hasn’t been there to support scholars working on the subject.
学术基础设施还没有为研究该主题的学者提供支持。
You have a variety of reasons that it hasn’t happened yet and will happen.
你有各种各样的理由认为这件事尚未发生或将会发生。
I think the question is, how does the framework of examining the Native American history — how is that going to conflict with the paradigms for studying black history?
我认为问题是，研究美洲原住民历史的框架如何与研究黑人历史的范式发生冲突？
I think you’re right.
我认为你是对的。
There’s going to be conflict.
就会有冲突。
What needs to be achieved so that a protected class no longer needs to be protected?
需要实现什么才能使受保护类别不再需要受到保护？
How do we know when we’re there?
我们怎么知道我们什么时候在那里？
Well, that’s too big a question.
嗯，这个问题太大了。
I don’t know the answer to that.
我不知道答案。
What’s the best argument in favor of reparations based on the history of slavery?
基于奴隶制历史支持赔偿的最佳论据是什么？
The best argument, I think — Coates’s argument a couple of years ago in the Atlantic was the best argument, which is that systematically property and value was taken away from the descendants from slave families and from the descendants of the enslaved around the country.
我认为最好的论点——科茨几年前在《大西洋月刊》上的论点是最好的论点，即财产和价值被系统性地从奴隶家庭的后裔和全国各地被奴役者的后裔手中夺走。
I think righting the wrongs of redlining, righting the wrongs of incarceration errors, righting the wrongs of family separations.
我认为纠正红线的错误，纠正监禁错误的错误，纠正家庭分离的错误。
His argument still, as far as I’m concerned, is the most convincing.
就我而言，他的论点仍然是最有说服力的。
On the postal service
关于邮政服务
You’ve written a good deal on the history of the postal service.
您写了很多关于邮政服务历史的文章。
How did the growth of the postal service change romance in America?
邮政服务的发展如何改变了美国的爱情？
Well, everybody could write a letter.
好吧，每个人都可以写信。
In 1844 — this was the other exciting thing that happened in the 1840s.
1844 年——这是 1840 年代发生的另一件令人兴奋的事情。
Rowland Hill in England changed the postal service by inventing the idea of prepaid postage.
英国的罗兰希尔发明了预付费邮资的理念，改变了邮政服务。
Anybody could buy a stamp, and then you’d put the stamp on the letter and send the letter.
任何人都可以购买邮票，然后将邮票贴在信件上并寄出信件。
Prior to that, you had to go to the post office.
在此之前，您必须去邮局。
You had to engage with the clerk.
你必须与店员打交道。
After the 1840s and after prepaid postage, you could just get your stamps, and anybody could send a letter.
1840 年代之后，预付邮资后，你就可以获得邮票，任何人都可以寄信。
In fact, Frederick Douglass loved the idea of prepaid post for the ability for the enslaved to write and send letters.
事实上，弗雷德里克·道格拉斯（Frederick Douglass）很喜欢预付费邮件的想法，因为奴隶可以写信和寄信。
After that, people wrote letters to each other, letters home, letters to their lovers, letters to —
此后，人们互相写信，给家里写信，给爱人写信，给——
When should you send a sealed letter?
您应该什么时候发送密封信函？
Because it’s also drawing attention to itself, right?
因为它本身也引起了人们的注意，对吗？
Well, envelopes — it’s interesting that envelopes, sealed envelopes, came about 50 years after the post office became popular, so you didn’t really have self-sealing envelopes until the end of the 19th century.
嗯，信封——有趣的是，信封，密封信封，是在邮局流行大约 50 年后出现的，所以直到 19 世纪末才真正有了自密封信封。
That was technology?
那是技术？
Or people didn’t see the need for it?
或者人们没有看到它的必要性？
Technology, the idea of folding the envelope and then having it be gummed and self-sealing.
技术，即折叠信封然后将其涂胶并自动密封的想法。
There were a number of patents, but they kept breaking down.
有很多专利，但它们不断失效。
But technology finally resolved it at the end of the 19th century.
但到了19世纪末，技术终于解决了这个问题。
Prior to that, you would write in code.
在此之前，您将编写代码。
Also, paper was expensive, so you often wrote across the page horizontally and then turned it to the side and crossed the page, writing in the other direction.
此外，纸张很昂贵，因此您经常水平地在页面上书写，然后将其翻到一边并穿过页面，以另一个方向书写。
If somebody was really going to snoop on your letters, they had to work for it.
如果有人真的想窥探你的信件，他们就必须付出努力。
On net, what were the social effects of the postal service?
在网络上，邮政服务产生了哪些社会影响？
Well, communication.
嗯，沟通。
The post office and the need for the post office is in our Constitution.
邮局和对邮局的需求都写在我们的宪法中。
It was egalitarian?
这是平等主义吗？
It was winner take all?
是赢家通吃吗？
It liberated women?
它解放了女性？
It helped slaves?
它帮助了奴隶？
Or what?
或者什么？
All those things.
所有这些事情。
All those things.
所有这些事情。
But yeah, de Tocqueville mentioned this in his great book in the 1830s that anybody — some farmer in Michigan — could be as informed as somebody in New York City.
但是，是的，托克维尔在他 1830 年代的伟大著作中提到了这一点：任何人——密歇根州的某个农民——都可以像纽约市的某个人一样了解情况。
When was the post office truly bureaucratized?
邮局什么时候真正官僚化了？
Truly bureaucratized?
真的官僚化了吗？
What do you mean by that?
你这是什么意思？
Well, it’s nominally a bureaucracy quite early on, but it seems very often it was an informal place in a small town.
嗯，名义上它很早就是一个官僚机构，但它似乎经常是小镇上的一个非正式场所。
People would go in there, do their social business, spit their tobacco on the ground, whatever, and get on with things.
人们会去那里，做他们的社交活动，把烟草吐在地上，等等，然后继续做事。
Then at some point, you have a very formal set of civil service requirements, and a post office is more or less a known, predictable thing.
然后在某个时候，你有一套非常正式的公务员要求，而邮局或多或少是一个已知的、可预测的东西。
Or no?
或者没有？
Well, you still have it as a social place.
好吧，你仍然把它作为一个社交场所。
I don’t remember that big study some years ago that if two people were supposed to meet someplace in a town with no other information, where would they end up meeting?
我不记得几年前的一项大型研究，如果两个人在一个城镇的某个地方见面，没有其他信息，他们最终会在哪里见面？
Always the answer was at the post office.
答案总是在邮局。
So it’s still a social place.
所以它仍然是一个社交场所。
The real bureaucratization came with unionization in the 20th century and with zip codes in the ’60s.
真正的官僚化是随着 20 世纪的工会化和 60 年代的邮政编码而出现的。
When was the postal service racially integrated?
邮政服务何时实现种族融合？
It had been racially integrated.
它已经实现了种族融合。
It was unintegrated under Woodrow Wilson, and then after that reintegrated, so that you see Richard Wright writes about working at the post office in Lawd Today, I think, is the book.
它在伍德罗·威尔逊 (Woodrow Wilson) 领导下被解散，然后又重新整合，所以你会看到理查德·赖特 (Richard Wright) 在《劳德今天》(Lawd Today) 中写到了关于在邮局工作的内容，我认为，这就是这本书。
But there were, famously, black postal delivery men through the 20th century.
但众所周知，整个 20 世纪都有黑人邮政投递员。
Even in the South?
即使在南方？
I don’t know as much about the South.
我对南方不太了解。
Why is the post office so productive of tales of suspense?
为什么邮局的悬疑故事如此之多？
Well, if you send a letter, it’s going to get delivered.
好吧，如果你寄出一封信，它就会被送达。
It’s going to happen one way or the other.
它会以一种或另一种方式发生。
There’s this great scene in Lolita when the mom finally figures out what Humbert Humbert is up to.
《洛丽塔》中有一个精彩的场景，当妈妈终于弄清楚亨伯特·亨伯特在做什么时。
She writes these letters outing him.
她写这些信来揭露他。
She’s about to cross the street to put them in the mailbox, and she gets hit by a car.
她正要过马路把它们放进邮箱，却被车撞了。
The dramatic scene — if those letters had gotten into the mailbox, his schemes would be over.
戏剧性的一幕——如果那些信进入了邮箱，他的计划就结束了。
But he reaches down, or some kid says, “Oh, here are some letters.” And he’s saved for better or worse.
但他弯下腰，或者某个孩子说：“哦，这是一些字母。”无论好坏，他都被保存了。
On teaching and Silicon Valley
关于教学和硅谷
You now live in northern California.
您现在住在加利福尼亚州北部。
What would you say that people in Silicon Valley do not understand about teaching?
你会说硅谷人不懂教学是什么？
That’s a real jump.
这是一个真正的跳跃。
I’m going to have to sit and process that for a second.
我得坐下来思考一下。
I’ve been a professor for a long time.
我当教授已经很长时间了。
I think about how to scale things up.
我在思考如何扩大规模。
I think about how to teach to thousands or tens of thousands rather than to the 20 people in the classroom.
我考虑的是如何向数千或数万人而不是教室里的20个人进行教学。
I’m not sure that it’s possible that the process of education, which is the process of learning information mediated by a trained, educated individual to students, which is the way teaching has been taught since Socrates’s time.
我不确定教育的过程是否可能，教育是由受过训练、受过教育的个人向学生传递信息的过程，这是自苏格拉底时代以来的教学方式。
Certainly, there are things that we do now differently than were done in Socrates’s time, but the delivery and cogitation and discussion and synthesis of ideas and learning has to happen, or I don’t see it scaling up.
当然，我们现在所做的一些事情与苏格拉底时代所做的有所不同，但是思想和学习的传递、思考、讨论和综合必须发生，否则我不认为它会扩大规模。
What do you think it is exactly that makes in-person, face-to-face teaching more effective than, say, teaching over Skype?
您认为到底是什么让面对面教学比 Skype 教学更有效？
It’s not just the in-person.
这不仅仅是面对面的。
I think it’s the dynamic of the individual professor, or multiple professors in team teaching, and the dynamic of the students sitting together.
我认为这是单个教授的动态，或者团队教学中多个教授的动态，以及坐在一起的学生的动态。
When I teach poetry, we might spend the entire class period on one sonnet.
当我教诗歌时，我们可能会用整个课堂时间来学习一首十四行诗。
Everybody around the room sees something different and convinces laterally the others in the room to see something.
房间里的每个人都看到了不同的东西，并说服房间里的其他人也看到了一些东西。
Students choose something overt with each other.
学生们互相选择一些公开的东西。
They affect each other.
他们互相影响。
It’s a dynamic process.
这是一个动态的过程。
What’s your view of bundling teaching with income-sharing agreements?
您对将教学与收入分享协议捆绑在一起有何看法？
I invest in the student.
我投资于学生。
I get a share of the student’s income as a company.
我作为公司获得学生收入的一部分。
I then have an incentive to teach and place that student.
然后我就有动力去教导和安置该学生。
Is that going to work?
这行得通吗？
Is that going to solve our teaching problem?
这能解决我们的教学问题吗？
Is it fundamentally an issue of incentives?
本质上是激励问题吗？
It might.
可能会。
I don’t see anything more wrong with it than any other kind of loans.
我不认为它比任何其他类型的贷款更错误。
I think it has a burden on the graduate.
我认为这对毕业生来说是一个负担。
The graduate certainly can’t take a gap year after graduation and go to France and fish or something like that.
毕业生当然不能在毕业后利用间隔年去法国钓鱼或类似的事情。
But the burden is the same in an ISA as it is with a student loan, so I don’t see it as fundamentally different.
但 ISA 的负担与学生贷款的负担是相同的，所以我不认为它有根本的不同。
Another Silicon Valley question.
另一个硅谷问题。
Which are the good artworks about founders?
有哪些关于创始人的优秀艺术作品？
There aren’t any.
没有。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I don’t understand why founders don’t have more operas about them, why we don’t see operas and movies about Steve Jobs, about Peter Thiel, about Jeff Bezos.
我不明白为什么创始人没有更多关于他们的歌剧，为什么我们看不到关于史蒂夫·乔布斯、关于彼得·泰尔、关于杰夫·贝佐斯的歌剧和电影。
There’s the David Fincher film of the founding of Facebook, but that’s pretty much it.
大卫·芬奇 (David Fincher) 的电影讲述了 Facebook 的创立，但仅此而已。
The founders, entrepreneurs today are titans.
今天的创始人、企业家都是巨人。
Does Moby-Dick count?
《白鲸》算不算？
That’s a whaling venture.
这是一次捕鲸活动。
It’s backed by something like venture capital.
它得到了风险投资之类的支持。
Yeah, that’s a good example.
是的，这是一个很好的例子。
But we don’t actually see the founders after the Pequod sets sail.
但在“裴阔德”号起航后，我们实际上并没有见到创始人。
What’s it like having been the child of a founder?
作为创始人的孩子是什么感觉？
Well, that’s a complicated question.
嗯，这是一个复杂的问题。
My dad was an entrepreneur before it became cool, I guess, and so we were always .
我想，在它变得很酷之前，我父亲就是一名企业家，所以我们一直都是。
.
。
.
。
He founded electronics firms in New Hampshire.
他在新罕布什尔州创办了电子公司。
I have three siblings, and we worked at the company.
我有三个兄弟姐妹，我们都在公司工作。
I spent summers soldering microchips and being yelled at to stay out of the clean room and making catalogs and understanding the industry a little bit.
我整个夏天都在焊接微芯片，被人大喊大叫，让我不要进入无尘室，我还制作目录，对这个行业有了一点了解。
The 1970s were a hard time for high-tech companies.
20 世纪 70 年代对于高科技公司来说是一段艰难的时期。
He would do well, and then they would fail.
他会做得很好，然后他们就会失败。
Then he’d start another one and maybe do well for a while, and then would do something else.
然后他会开始另一个项目，也许会做得很好一段时间，然后再做其他事情。
It was a hard life, but it was fun.
生活虽然辛苦，但也很有趣。
It was exhilarating.
真是令人兴奋。
If you study the history of dams — dams that hold back water — what will you know that maybe the tech people don’t?
如果你研究水坝的历史——蓄水的水坝——你会知道哪些技术人员可能不知道的事情？
I’m interested in dams.
我对水坝感兴趣。
I’m interested in the history of California’s water.
我对加州水的历史很感兴趣。
I worked for a while with the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, so I got to know a little bit about the water, about the importance of the dams and how California wouldn’t be California without the system of dams and water.
我在南加州大都会水务区工作了一段时间，所以我对水有了一些了解，了解了水坝的重要性，以及如果没有水坝和水系统，加州就不会是加州。
But I’m not sure I’m an expert that could tell anybody more than the current experts.
但我不确定我是否是一位能够比现有专家告诉任何人更多信息的专家。
The problem of daycare and taking care of children — why is that so hard to solve?
日托和照顾孩子的问题——为什么这么难解决？
And is there a tech solution?
那么有技术解决方案吗？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I was on this commission.
我是这个委员会的成员。
This was in Colorado in the 1990s.
这是 20 世纪 90 年代的科罗拉多州。
The governor of Colorado, Roy Romer, asked these questions.
科罗拉多州州长罗伊·罗默提出了这些问题。
I think I was on two commissions, now that I remember it.
现在我想起来了，我想我曾接受过两次委托。
Again, is this something that could be scaled?
再说一遍，这是可以扩展的吗？
Is there something that government should do to ensure quality childcare?
政府应该采取什么措施来确保优质的托儿服务？
Look, anybody could have a child.
听着，任何人都可以有孩子。
The conditions under which most children are raised — we think about even the ideal of two-income parents, one staying home, being with the children.
大多数孩子的成长条件——我们甚至会想到双收入父母的理想，其中一个人呆在家里，与孩子们在一起。
Somebody’s got to take care of the kid before kindergarten.
孩子上幼儿园之前必须有人照顾。
The variety of conditions for these children around the world, I don’t think most people think about.
我认为大多数人都没有考虑过世界各地这些孩子的各种状况。
I worked for a while for Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains.
我曾在落基山脉计划生育协会工作过一段时间。
The woman that ran Planned Parenthood got into it, I guess, devoted her life to Planned Parenthood, to contraception, after seeing so many children with malnutrition that were just left alone to die or were not taken care of well and realizing that education was required.
我想，经营计划生育联合会的那位女士在看到这么多营养不良的儿童要么孤零零地死去，要么没有得到很好的照顾，并意识到需要教育之后，就把自己的一生奉献给了计划生育联合会和避孕事业。
In a tech-obsessed world, do scent and perfume matter more or less?
在一个痴迷科技的世界里，气味和香水更重要还是更不重要？
Well, I think scent is the underrated.
嗯，我认为气味被低估了。
I wondered if you were going to ask me this in underrated/overrated.
我想知道你是否会以被低估/高估的方式问我这个问题。
Scent is underrated in the tech world.
在科技界，气味被低估了。
Scent is underrated in entertainment.
气味在娱乐中被低估了。
I think there’s only been one film by John Waters which attempted to bring scent into the theaters, and that was, what, 30, 40 years ago?
我认为约翰·沃特斯（John Waters）只有一部电影试图将气味带入影院，那是，什么，30、40 年前？
There’s that film Perfume from the Patrick Suskind book, but that’s still mainly a novel.
帕特里克·萨斯金德（Patrick Suskind）书中有一部电影《香水》（Perfume），但这仍然主要是一部小说。
Right, and does it come with a scratch-and-sniff?
对了，它有刮擦和嗅探功能吗？
Not that I know of.
据我所知没有。
I think it was a Franco-German film.
我认为这是一部法德电影。
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
Ah, okay.
啊，好吧。
We now get to underrated versus overrated.
我们现在开始讨论被低估与被高估的问题。
Are you game?
你是游戏吗？
Sure.
当然。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Okay.
好的。
First one out: tap dancing — underrated or overrated?
第一个：踢踏舞——被低估还是高估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Tap dancing is excellent.
踢踏舞非常棒。
What makes it interesting?
是什么让它变得有趣？
I was just actually having a conversation with the dance faculty at Sonoma State, which does not offer tap dancing there.
我实际上只是在与索诺玛州立大学的舞蹈系进行交谈，该校不提供踢踏舞课程。
It’s a very avant-garde program.
这是一个非常前卫的节目。
It’s a very edgy program.
这是一个非常前卫的计划。
The example given of being edgy was, “Oh, we don’t do tap dancing.” I thought, “Why?
举的例子是，“哦，我们不跳踢踏舞。”我想：“为什么？
I like tap dancing.
我喜欢踢踏舞。
It’s fun.
这很有趣。
It’s uplifting.” I just find it fun.
这令人振奋。”我只是觉得很有趣。
The Thomas Mann novel Doctor Faustus.
托马斯·曼的小说《浮士德博士》。
Totally underrated.
完全被低估了。
More people should read it.
应该让更多人读到。
There’s this great scene .
就有了这么精彩的一幕。
.
。
.
。
When’s the last time you read it?
你最后一次读它是什么时候？
Oh, 20 years ago.
哦，20年前。
There’s a wonderful scene where Mephistopheles brings grapes to Doctor Faustus out of season.
有一个美妙的场景，梅菲斯特给浮士德博士带来了反季节的葡萄。
He’s like, “Wow.
他就像，“哇。
How could there be grapes out of season?” In these days when we have Whole Foods right around the corner, I can’t imagine most people in America imagining that you would sell your soul to the devil to get grapes out of season.
怎么会有反季节的葡萄呢？”如今，全食超市就在街角，我无法想象大多数美国人会想象你会为了得到反季节的葡萄而把自己的灵魂出卖给魔鬼。
There’s a wonderful scene where Mephistopheles brings grapes to Doctor Faustus out of season.
有一个美妙的场景，梅菲斯特给浮士德博士带来了反季节的葡萄。
He’s like, “Wow.
他就像，“哇。
How could there be grapes out of season?” In these days when we have Whole Foods right around the corner, I can’t imagine most people in America imagining that you would sell your soul to the devil to get grapes out of season.
怎么会有反季节的葡萄呢？”如今，全食超市就在街角，我无法想象大多数美国人会想象你会为了得到反季节的葡萄而把自己的灵魂出卖给魔鬼。
Worrying about rabies — overrated or underrated?
担心狂犬病——高估还是低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
It’s all underrated today.
今天这一切都被低估了。
It’s all underrated.
这一切都被低估了。
There should be more discussion of rabies, where most people don’t know that, in fact, public policy has eradicated something that had been a real concern for most Americans.
应该有更多关于狂犬病的讨论，大多数人不知道，事实上，公共政策已经消除了大多数美国人真正关心的问题。
There’s a great scene in To Kill a Mockingbird when Atticus Finch is called home because there’s a rabid dog walking down the street.
《杀死一只知更鸟》中有一个很棒的场景，阿提克斯·芬奇被叫回家，因为街上有一只疯狗在走。
It’s the scene where he takes his gun and, with one shot, puts the dog down and is the one man in town that can do it.
在这一幕中，他拿起枪，一枪就把狗放倒了，他是镇上唯一能做到这一点的人。
Amiri Baraka, formerly known as LeRoi Jones.
阿米里·巴拉卡（Amiri Baraka），原名勒罗伊·琼斯（LeRoi Jones）。
Overrated?
被高估了？
Underrated?
被低估？
I think he’s underrated.
我认为他被低估了。
It is unsettling to me that so many students don’t know him.
令我不安的是，这么多学生不认识他。
I try to teach him and teach his poems when I can.
我尽可能地教他并教他的诗。
He’s featured in one chapter in my book on sonnets because he has two extraordinary sonnets.
我在关于十四行诗的书中有一章介绍了他，因为他有两首非凡的十四行诗。
He didn’t call them sonnets, but they are sonnets.
他没有称它们为十四行诗，但它们就是十四行诗。
He was a really good poet.
他是一位非常好的诗人。
Tiger Woods.
泰格·伍兹。
I don’t know too much about .
我不太了解。
.
。
.
。
Well, I know that he’s a golfer, and I golf.
嗯，我知道他是高尔夫球手，而我也打高尔夫球。
But I don’t watch him, so overrated.
但我不看他，所以被高估了。
Comparison from the Bible: Genesis or Exodus?
圣经的比较：创世记还是出埃及记？
Genesis.
创世纪。
Why?
为什么？
Well, “In the beginning.” It’s the beginning.
嗯，“一开始”。这是开始。
Does it have the better stories?
它有更好的故事吗？
It’s got the better stories.
它有更好的故事。
Exodus has too much of the list about it.
出埃及记有太多关于它的清单。
We don’t have to deal with the lists in Genesis.
我们不必处理创世记中的列表。
Margaret Mitchell or Ayn Rand?
玛格丽特·米切尔还是艾因·兰德？
Well, it’s interesting that two of the best-selling novelists of the 20th-century women are both equally ignored by English departments in universities.
有趣的是，两位 20 世纪最畅销的女性小说家同样被大学英语系忽视。
Margaret Mitchell and Gone with the Wind is paid attention to a little bit just because, as I said, it’s something that literature and film worked against, but not Ayn Rand at all.
玛格丽特·米切尔和《乱世佳人》之所以受到一点关注，只是因为正如我所说，这是文学和电影反对的东西，但安·兰德根本不反对。
What’s Herman Melville’s second-best book?
赫尔曼·梅尔维尔第二好的书是什么？
Billy Budd.
比利·巴德.
Why Billy Budd?
为什么是比利·巴德？
Well, like Antigone, like the Caine Mutiny court martial, it’s the trial scenes spark extraordinary conversation in the classroom.
好吧，就像安提戈涅一样，就像凯恩兵变军事法庭一样，审判场景在课堂上引发了非凡的对话。
If you’re going to read one book by Chester Himes, what should it be?
如果您要读切斯特·希姆斯的一本书，应该读什么？
I don’t remember all the names of them.
我不记得他们的全部名字。
He’s worth reading.
他值得一读。
What’s interesting in it?
其中有什么有趣的地方呢？
The two detectives and the patter between the two detectives and the way these detective novels operate differently and the same as other classic detective novels.
两个侦探以及两个侦探之间的闲聊以及这些侦探小说的运作方式与其他经典侦探小说不同而又相同。
Film music — another topic you’ve written on.
电影音乐——你写过的另一个主题。
Why are hit songs in movies not so much a thing anymore?
为什么电影中的热门歌曲不再那么受欢迎了？
In the 1960s, parts of the ’70s — it’s very common for the songs on the top of the charts to come from movies, like “Mrs. Robinson.” That seems to have vanished.
在 20 世纪 60 年代和 70 年代的部分时期，排行榜上名列前茅的歌曲来自电影是很常见的，比如《罗宾逊夫人》。那似乎已经消失了。
What happened?
发生了什么？
Well, has it?
嗯，有吗？
I hear Frozen everywhere, so I don’t know.
我到处都听到《冰雪奇缘》，所以我不知道。
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
I’m not as much an expert on change over time.
我并不是随时间变化的专家。
I expect that there will always be songs from movies.
我希望电影中总会有歌曲。
There was that song from A Star is Born that was all over.
《一个明星的诞生》中的那首歌就结束了。
Yes.
是的。
So I’m not sure I agree with your question.
所以我不确定我是否同意你的问题。
I think film music has changed, but not that much.
我认为电影音乐已经改变，但变化不大。
Can you think of a potentially good movie ruined by a bad soundtrack?
你能想到一部原本不错的电影被糟糕的配乐毁掉了吗？
I’d have to think about that.
我必须考虑一下。
What’s a paradigmatic example of a movie made better by a good soundtrack?
好的电影配乐使电影变得更好的典型例子是什么？
The Pink Panther — Henry Mancini’s score.
《粉红豹》——亨利·曼奇尼的配乐。
The movie is ridiculous, but Henry Mancini’s score — you’re going to be humming it now the rest of the day.
这部电影很荒谬，但亨利·曼奇尼的配乐——你今天剩下的时间都会哼着它。
Overall — and I don’t here mean the music, but just the use of sound — is the use of sound in movie soundtracks improving or declining in quality?
总的来说——我这里指的不是音乐，而是声音的使用——电影配乐中声音的使用质量是提高了还是下降了？
How much is it making the movie better?
它对电影的改善有多大？
I read something recently that, in fact, the sound has never been better, but primarily in TV sounds because there are so many channels.
我最近读到一些东西，事实上，声音从未如此好过，但主要是电视声音，因为频道太多。
People write about this.
人们写到这一点。
There are so many amazing shows that what draws — and people are doing many things while the TV is on in the background.
有很多令人惊叹的节目吸引着人们，而人们在电视开着的时候正在做很多事情。
If they’re cooking and this .
如果他们正在做饭还有这个。
.
。
.
。
what draws people to put down their knife while they’re chopping things and look at the TV — or when they’re changing channels, to stop — is sound, not visuals, so that music theme songs have improved.
吸引人们在切东西时放下刀子看电视——或者当他们换台时停下来的——是声音，而不是视觉效果，因此音乐主题曲得到了改进。
Movies seem too loud to me these days.
这些天电影对我来说似乎太大声了。
Maybe I’m just seeing the wrong movies, but it seems harder to hear subtle sounds, and there’s more blare.
也许我只是看错了电影，但似乎很难听到细微的声音，而且刺耳的声音也更多。
The sound quality has never been higher.
音质从未如此高。
I think that’s true.
我认为这是真的。
Apparently, you’re seeing too many Transformers films.
显然，你看太多变形金刚电影了。
Though Hans Zimmer’s scores in many films — he’s very, very loud but also very good.
尽管汉斯·齐默在许多电影中配乐，但他的声音非常非常响亮，但也非常好。
Is Neal Stephenson correct that the Western as a genre doesn’t exist anymore?
尼尔·史蒂芬森关于西部片作为一种流派已经不复存在的说法正确吗？
If so, what happened to it?
如果是这样，那是怎么回事？
I think about this a lot.
我想了很多。
Growing up in the ’60s and ’70s, the Western was what you’d see on TV.
在 60 年代和 70 年代长大的人中，西部片就是你在电视上看到的东西。
I was thinking about the number of Native Americans I would see in a week watching Bonanza or whatever Westerns happened to be on the late show.
我在想一周内我会看到多少美洲原住民观看《富矿》或晚间节目中碰巧出现的西部片。
These depictions of Native Americans were not accurate and were stereotypical and were deeply problematic, but at least they were present because the Western was a dominant form on television and film.
这些对美洲原住民的描述并不准确，而且是刻板印象，存在很大问题，但至少它们存在，因为西部片是电视和电影的主导形式。
I asked some students today, “What TV do you watch that features cowboys and Indians or Native Americans?” And there aren’t any.
今天我问一些学生，“你们看什么电视以牛仔、印第安人或美洲原住民为主角？”而且没有。
Hans Christian Andersen — “Emperor’s Clothes.” What’s the Straussian reading of that story?
汉斯·克里斯蒂安·安徒生——《皇帝的衣服》。施特劳斯式地解读这个故事是什么？
Well, “The Emperor’s New Clothes” — everybody knows the story.
嗯，《皇帝的新装》——每个人都知道这个故事。
What most people don’t recognize is that was a happy, flourishing town.
大多数人没有意识到那是一个幸福、繁荣的小镇。
The short story says, “Time passed merrily in that town.” While the king was trying on clothes in his wardrobe and while all his ministers were bringing him clothes and he was trying them on — perhaps he was a little vain — the town was doing well.
短篇小说写道：“在那个小镇里，时光过得很快乐。”当国王在他的衣柜里试穿衣服时，当他所有的大臣都给他带来衣服，而他也在试穿它们时——也许他有点虚荣——小镇却过得很好。
It was economically thriving.
当时的经济十分繁荣。
There were no problems.
没有任何问题。
Anderson wrote this during a time of changing to a constitutional monarchy.
安德森在君主立宪制时期写下这篇文章。
The question being, things are pretty good when you have a benevolent monarch who’s not paying any attention and you —
问题是，当你有一个仁慈的君主却没有任何关注时，事情就相当不错了，而你——
Is it still a happy town by the end of the story?
到故事结束时，它仍然是一个快乐的小镇吗？
No, because once these weavers swindled the emperor and the little boy cries out, “But he has nothing on,” everybody’s very upset.
不，因为一旦这些织布工欺骗了皇帝，小男孩喊道：“但他什么也没穿。”大家都很沮丧。
Everybody’s sad.
每个人都很悲伤。
The ministers and the ruse of having a king who isn’t paying attention is requiring that we’re going to have a king that does pay attention.
大臣们和国王不专心的诡计要求我们要有一个真正专心的国王。
I find the story very conservative.
我觉得这个故事非常保守。
What if the alternate original ending had been kept?
如果保留原来的替代结局会怎样？
That’s a good question, and I think the alternative ending is a benevolent monarchy is the best form of government.
这是一个很好的问题，我认为另一种结局是仁慈的君主制是最好的政府形式。
Thomas Carlyle’s Sartor Resartus — why is that an interesting book?
托马斯·卡莱尔的《Sartor Resartus》——为什么这是一本有趣的书？
It seems unreadable to so many people.
对于很多人来说似乎难以理解。
It’s about clothes.
这是关于衣服的。
Who would read Carlyle on German idealism, romanticism, and clothes?
谁会读卡莱尔关于德国理想主义、浪漫主义和服装的著作？
And none of it makes sense.
这一切都没有意义。
What’s the bottom line on that?
底线是什么？
I totally agree with you.
我完全同意你的观点。
It’s overrated, and I’ve never finished it myself.
它被高估了，我自己从来没有完成过。
What is the Straussian reading of Babar the Elephant?
施特劳斯式的《大象巴巴尔》解读是什么？
When’s the last time you read it?
你最后一次读它是什么时候？
Not long ago.
不久前。
Okay.
好的。
I used to teach it alongside Edward Said’s Orientalism because in this story, Babar the Elephant comes to town, is dressed by the lady.
我曾经把它和爱德华·赛义德的《东方学》一起教，因为在这个故事中，大象巴巴尔来到城里，由那位女士打扮。
He gets this green suit of clothing, which is not exactly right.
他得到了这套绿色的衣服，但不太对劲。
It’s not good enough to be with elite of the town, but it’s good enough for him then to go back to the elephants and be king there.
与镇上的精英在一起还不够好，但对他来说，回到大象那里并成为那里的国王就足够了。
He is a kind of subaltern in the dominant colonial hierarchy but then can go and oversee the elephants but still be in sway to the colonialist enterprise.
他是占主导地位的殖民等级制度中的一个下属，但随后可以去监督大象，但仍然对殖民主义企业具有影响力。
So it’s reactionary, in your reading.
所以在你的阅读中这是反动的。
Yes.
是的。
Why don’t science fiction writers focus on clothes more?
为什么科幻小说作家不更多地关注服装？
I wonder about this.
我想知道这一点。
The Star Wars — you either have the sort of toga or the sort of Irish knit stuff with leather jackets that Hans Solo wears.
《星球大战》——你要么有那种长袍，要么有汉斯·索罗穿的那种爱尔兰针织品和皮夹克。
Color is used in such literal ways, right?
颜色的使用就是如此字面意思，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Red uniform: the guy’s going to die.
红色制服：这家伙快要死了。
Exactly.
确切地。
In both Star Trek, Star Wars, I look around with all the technological advancements, and I wonder why people are wearing just throwaway clothes.
在《星际迷航》和《星球大战》中，我环顾四周，看到了所有的技术进步，我想知道为什么人们只穿着一次性衣服。
People buy hundreds of things a year, throw them out.
人们每年购买数百件东西，然后扔掉。
They’re badly made.
它们做工很差。
Workers in bad circumstances are making them.
工人们在恶劣的环境下制造它们。
I don’t understand why there hasn’t been real disruption in attire.
我不明白为什么服装方面没有发生真正的破坏。
In your vision, how do you think clothes will differ 50 years from now?
在您的愿景中，您认为 50 年后的服装将会有何不同？
Well, unless somebody steps in and does something, they’re going to be exactly the same, and they’re going to be horrible.
好吧，除非有人介入并做点什么，否则他们就会一模一样，而且会很可怕。
I’d like to see fabrics that you can wash at home, that last over time.
我希望看到可以在家清洗且经久耐用的面料。
But what do you want from, say, smart clothes with embedded sensors?
但是，您想要从带有嵌入式传感器的智能衣服中得到什么？
Do you want the clothes to carry memory?
你想让衣服承载记忆吗？
Should they do some functions of your smartphone?
他们应该执行您智能手机的某些功能吗？
What can they do that they’re not doing for us right now?
他们还能做什么但现在没有为我们做的事情？
Well, just having this conversation would be an improvement.
好吧，只要进行这次谈话就会有所改善。
Right now, those who are dominating the clothing industry — it’s just about style, about what color.
现在，那些主导服装行业的人——只关心款式、颜色。
I think there hasn’t been a conversation yet about what happens in Paris and what happens in Silicon Valley.
我认为还没有就巴黎发生的事情和硅谷发生的事情进行对话。
Why isn’t there more good science fiction?
为什么没有更多好的科幻小说呢？
Well, I think there is.
嗯，我想是有的。
What do you mean, more?
你什么意思，更多？
I’m enjoying .
我很享受。
.
。
.
。
I’m reading Ted Chiang’s short stories right now.
我现在正在读特德·蒋的短篇小说。
I’ve read Neal Stephenson.
我读过尼尔·史蒂芬森的书。
There’s great stuff.
有很棒的东西。
What’s the bias in mainstream media coverage of higher education?
主流媒体对高等教育的报道存在哪些偏见？
What do they get wrong?
他们做错了什么？
Well, Inside Higher Ed and Chronicle — and I write for both of them — individuals I know there to say, “Stop focusing on the elite schools.
嗯，《高等教育内部》和《纪事报》——我为这两本书撰写文章——我认识的人会说：“不要再关注精英学校了。
Spend some more time on .
多花一些时间。
.
。
.”
”。
I’m in the CSU system at Sonoma State University.
我在索诺玛州立大学的科罗拉多州立大学系统。
There’re 23 Cal State schools.
有 23 所加州州立学校。
I think it’s the second-largest public university system in the country.
我认为这是该国第二大公立大学系统。
Schools like ours should have more coverage.
像我们这样的学校应该有更多的覆盖范围。
It should not be Harvard, Yale, Swarthmore, Amherst as emblematic of what’s happening in higher ed, or even Oberlin.
它不应该是哈佛、耶鲁、斯沃斯莫尔、阿默斯特作为高等教育界发生的事情的象征，甚至不应该是奥柏林。
At schools like yours, the best students typically are very, very good, but they’re not necessarily readily discovered because it’s not Harvard or Stanford.
在像你们这样的学校，最好的学生通常都非常非常优秀，但他们不一定很容易被发现，因为它不是哈佛或斯坦福大学。
If someone is coming along and they want to try to hire the very best students from, say, a California State system school, how should they find them?
如果有人来了，他们想从加州州立系统学校等学校聘请最优秀的学生，他们应该如何找到他们？
What are the empirical correlates of those people who are the very, very best students?
那些非常非常优秀的学生的经验相关性是什么？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
It’s something that I’m actually thinking on and working on.
这是我实际上正在思考和努力的事情。
One of the reasons I wanted to come to California and work at a state university is students at a place like Johns Hopkins — there’s already a pipeline to go to the best, to go to Google or Facebook.
我想来加州并在一所州立大学工作的原因之一是约翰·霍普金斯大学这样的地方的学生——已经有一条通往最好的学校的管道，可以去谷歌或 Facebook。
The challenge at a place like Sonoma State with first-gen students is that the opportunity horizons or the idea that “Oh, I could go work at Facebook or I could go work at Google or I could go create an app” isn’t something that first-gen students often embrace.
在像索诺玛州立大学这样的地方，第一代学生面临的挑战是，机会视野或“哦，我可以去 Facebook 工作，或者我可以去谷歌工作，或者我可以去创建一个应用程序”的想法并不是第一代学生经常接受的。
So the first thing that we need to do in classrooms is open up opportunities, to say, “Have you thought about this?
因此，我们在课堂上要做的第一件事就是创造机会，说：“你考虑过这个吗？
Is this a possibility?” To bring speakers to campus to say, “This is something you can do.” To have recruiters come to campus and speak to our students.
有这种可能吗？”让演讲者来到校园说：“这是你可以做的事情。”让招聘人员来到校园与我们的学生交谈。
And that’s what we’re doing.
这就是我们正在做的事情。
To improve the job that you’re trying to do, if you could have better data on something, what would that something be?
为了改进你正在尝试做的工作，如果你能在某件事上获得更好的数据，那件事会是什么？
I’ll have to think about that…
我得考虑一下……
I’d like to know what makes a really good teacher.
我想知道什么才是真正的好老师。
In looking at the literature, the quality of teaching is measured primarily on student outcomes, on student test scores.
从文献来看，教学质量主要是根据学生的成绩和学生的考试成绩来衡量的。
But it’s hard to say that that is the best measure or that’s the best measure of how a teacher teaches.
但很难说这是最好的衡量标准，或者说这是衡量教师教学方式的最佳衡量标准。
There’s an Alfred North Whitehead quote that he said: “Sometimes I give a student an A or B instead of a C or a D because they’ll earn it 20 years from now.” A good teacher will lodge education in a student’s mind that may not bear fruit for 10, 15 years.
阿尔弗雷德·诺斯·怀特海德 (Alfred North Whitehead) 曾说过：“有时我会给学生 A 或 B，而不是 C 或 D，因为他们会在 20 年后获得它。”一个好的老师会把教育深深地烙在学生的脑海里，但这种教育可能要10年、15年才能结出硕果。
How do we measure that?
我们如何衡量这一点？
Is it possible to be measured?
是否可以测量？
How do we measure the delivery of information — per hour, per comment?
我们如何衡量信息的传递——每小时、每条评论？
How do we figure out who’s good and who isn’t good?
我们如何判断谁好谁不好？
Right now, the only way that we can study teachers are studying those who have decided to go into the field of teaching.
目前，我们研究教师的唯一方法是研究那些决定进入教学领域的人。
What are your intuitions?
你的直觉是什么？
They’ll be some obvious correlates, such as putting time into being a better teacher.
它们将是一些明显的相关性，例如投入时间成为一名更好的老师。
But the obvious correlates aside, what do you think are the hidden correlates with people ending up being excellent teachers?
但除了明显的相关性之外，您认为与人们最终成为优秀教师的隐藏相关性是什么？
There’s a way of finding the channel of communication between the teacher and the student to be always open.
有一种方法可以让老师和学生之间的沟通渠道始终保持畅通。
The teacher has a number of students in front of him or her and is constantly opening that channel and delivering information individually to each student all the time in the manner that the student needs it.
老师面前有许多学生，并且不断地打开该通道，并始终以学生需要的方式向每个学生单独提供信息。
I can’t believe I’m about to gesture to Malcolm Gladwell, but his comparison of elementary school teachers to quarterbacks, I think, is fruitful in a way.
我不敢相信我要向马尔科姆·格拉德威尔做手势，但我认为他将小学教师与四分卫进行比较在某种程度上是富有成效的。
Being nimble, being quick on one’s feet, being able to respond, to be able to call an audible.
敏捷，脚步敏捷，能够响应，能够发出声音。
If a student asks a question, and the teacher can pivot and answer that student at that moment — there’s that quality of pivoting quickly that, I think, makes a really good teacher.
如果一个学生问了一个问题，而老师当时就可以转变并回答该学生——我认为，快速转变的品质造就了一位真正的好老师。
Having raised two very successful children, what did you learn about teaching from doing that?
您养育了两个非常成功的孩子，您从中学到了什么教学经验？
Well, I raised two successful adults, and I think that’s actually the question.
嗯，我养育了两个成功的成年人，我认为这实际上就是问题所在。
I was not going to raise children.
我不打算抚养孩子。
I was going to raise adults, and I told them that from the very beginning, “Act in ways that you would like to see the world act, not just do unto others or do not do unto others.
我要抚养成年人，从一开始我就告诉他们，“按照你希望看到世界采取的方式行事，而不是只对别人做或不对别人做。
But is the way you are being right now the way you would like to see the world run?”
但你现在的样子是你希望看到的世界运转的方式吗？”
That — speaking to young people as if they’re adults — is something that I’ve brought into the classroom.
我把这一点——像对待成年人一样与年轻人交谈——是我带进课堂的。
Hollis Robbins, thank you very much.
霍利斯·罗宾斯，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It’s been a pleasure.
这是一种乐趣。