Githae Githinji on Life in Kenya (Ep. 195 - BONUS)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m sitting here in Tatu City, right outside of Nairobi, Kenya, and I’ll be chatting with Githae Githinji.
今天我坐在肯尼亚内罗毕郊外的塔图市，我将与 Githae Githinji 聊天。
He’s a businessman in the transport industry, and he’s a Kikuyu elder.
他是一位运输业的商人，也是一位基库尤族长老。
He’s stationed at Tatu City, where he’s a chairman.
他驻扎在塔图市，担任主席。
His roles as chairman include dispute resolution and also coordinating community ceremonies.
他作为主席的职责包括解决争议和协调社区仪式。
His most recent activity as the elders’ chairman for the area around Tatu City was planning and coordinating the cleansing ceremony of a Mugumo tree being moved into Tatu City.
作为塔图市周边地区长老会主席，他最近的活动是规划和协调将一棵 Mugumo 树移入塔图市的清洁仪式。
Gitahi is 58 years old.
吉塔希今年 58 岁。
He is from the Agikuyu community.
他来自 Agikuyu 社区。
He is born and raised in Mukurweini, Nyeri County, the central region of Kenya.
他在肯尼亚中部地区涅里县穆库韦尼出生并长大。
He resides now in Kiambu County, where he has also established his business.
他现在居住在基安布县，并在那里建立了自己的生意。
Githae, welcome.
吉萨，欢迎。
Welcome also.
也欢迎。
Thank you for talking with me.
谢谢你和我说话。
Yes.
是的。
What is your business?
你是做什么生意的？
Could you tell us?
你能告诉我们吗？
I deal with transports.
我负责运输。
Transports.
运输。
What does that mean specifically?
这具体是什么意思呢？
I have matatus, and I have small vehicles which I normally deliver for commercial purposes.
我有 matatus，还有小型车辆，通常用于商业目的。
You own the vehicles.
您拥有车辆。
You sell them to businesses, to individuals, or who are your customers?
你把它们卖给企业、个人，或者谁是你的客户？
No, I do transport.
不，我是做运输的。
Let’s say transporting people from Ruiru to Nairobi.
假设将人员从鲁鲁运送到内罗毕。
You drive them from one place to another?
你开车送他们从一个地方到另一个地方？
I don’t.
我不知道。
I own.
我拥有。
I see.
我懂了。
So I employ people who do that job.
所以我雇用了从事这项工作的人。
I manage my business.
我管理我的生意。
When you look for good drivers who will do good work, what qualities do you look for in them?
当您寻找能够出色工作的优秀驾驶员时，您会在他们身上寻找哪些品质？
A driver who is competent in what he’s doing.
一个能胜任自己所做工作的司机。
How do you tell if they’re good?
你如何判断它们是否好？
When you talk to them, you have an interview, what do you ask?
当你和他们交谈时，你接受采访，你会问什么？
Or how do you approach that?
或者你如何处理这个问题？
Normally, I do test them, me personally, see whether somebody has all the requirements to be a driver — you need to have all the documents that are required by the government — and then his ability to do that job.
通常情况下，我个人会测试他们，看看某人是否具备成为一名司机的所有要求 ——你需要拥有政府要求的所有文件 ——然后看他是否有能力完成这项工作。
How can you tell who will be a good driver or not a good driver?
您如何判断谁是好司机或不是好司机？
It’s a person who is qualified in that skill.
这是一个有资格从事这项技能的人。
So, the main thing is the license.
所以，最主要的是许可证。
The main thing is the license, plus the other government documents and whether somebody is sober.
最主要的是许可证，加上其他政府文件以及某人是否清醒。
Sober?
清醒？
Yes.
是的。
Sober, I mean, you can’t employ some others who are drunkards, who can cause lot of things.
清醒，我的意思是，你不能雇佣一些酒鬼，他们会造成很多事情。
You have to look for somebody who is a little bit educated, who knows responsibility.
你必须寻找受过一点教育、懂得责任的人。
Or a person who can handle that vehicle itself.
或者一个可以自行驾驶该车辆的人。
Yes, I understand.
是的，我明白。
The part of Kenya where you’re from, that’s Mukurweini, right?
你来自肯尼亚的那个地方，那就是 Mukurweini，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
What is special about that part of Kenya?
肯尼亚的那个地区有什么特别之处？
The part of Kenya, Mukurweini, well, as I could say, I left the place a long time ago.
肯尼亚的穆库维尼（Mukurweini），嗯，我可以说，我很久以前就离开了这个地方。
The moment I finished my school, I came here to Ruiru, and that’s why I established myself here in Ruiru.
当我完成学业后，我就来到了瑞如，这就是我在瑞如定居的原因。
I left my motherland.
我离开了我的祖国。
Why did you leave there?
你为什么离开那里？
I was just coming to look for good pastures here.
我只是来这里寻找好的牧场。
Just for better jobs?
只是为了更好的工作？
Yes.
是的。
When I came here, I was employed here.
当我来到这里时，我在这里工作。
When I got employed here, I invested here.
当我在这里工作时，我在这里投资。
I got a piece of plot here, on which I built, so I reside here now.
我在这里有一块地，我在上面建造了房子，所以我现在住在这里。
Where you come from, do you miss it in any way, or you’re just happier to be here?
你来自哪里，你是否怀念它，或者你只是更高兴来到这里？
No, I just go there visiting.
不，我只是去那里参观。
Just visiting.
刚刚来访。
Even though I lost my mother and father, I just go and visit my brothers who are there.
尽管我失去了我的父母，我还是去看望那里的兄弟们。
Why do you think you left and they didn’t?
你认为为什么你离开了而他们却没有？
What’s the difference?
有什么区别？
That is a rural area.
那是一个农村地区。
We don’t have a lot of job opportunities like we have here in Kiambu or in Nairobi.
我们没有像基安布或内罗毕那样的大量工作机会。
Even apart from jobs, if you just think about living there, is it more exciting to live here or more interesting to live there?
即使抛开工作，如果你只想住在那里，是住在这里更令人兴奋，还是住在那里更有趣？
Well, I would say it’s more interesting to live here because if I may think of job opportunities, or looking for something, here it’s more convenient.
嗯，我想说住在这里更有趣，因为如果我可能想到工作机会，或者寻找什么东西，这里更方便。
More than the rural area.
比农村还多。
Your native language from the family is Kiswahili, right?
您家里的母语是斯瓦希里语，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
You learned English here, or you learned it in school?
你在这里学英语，还是在学校学的？
Kiswahili?
斯瓦希里语？
No, but that you grew up speaking, right?
不，但你从小就说话，对吗？
I grew up speaking Kikuyu.
我从小就讲基库尤语。
Kikuyu.
基库尤人。
Okay.
好的。
Yes, Kikuyu is my main language.
是的，基库尤语是我的主要语言。
What other languages do you speak?
您还说哪些其他语言？
The other language is Kiswahili.
另一种语言是斯瓦希里语。
Yes, and English, of course.
是的，当然还有英语。
English, eventually.
英语，最终。
How did you learn those?
你是怎么学会这些的？
From school.
从学校。
When you were growing up as a boy?
当你还是个男孩的时候？
Yes, when I was growing as a young boy.
是的，当我还是个小男孩的时候。
I went up to Form 4 .
我升到了中四。
If you think about Africa as a whole, do you think you’re lucky to live in Kenya, or you wish you were somewhere else?
如果您将非洲视为一个整体，您认为生活在肯尼亚很幸运，还是希望自己生活在其他地方？
Or how do you view Kenya within Africa?
或者您如何看待非洲的肯尼亚？
Kenya is a good country.
肯尼亚是一个好国家。
What makes it good?
是什么让它变得好？
It makes it good for — actually, the way I have stayed here, I’ve never seen bad things.
这对我来说是件好事——事实上，就我在这里住的方式而言，我从未见过不好的事情。
In terms of violence or disorder?
是暴力还是骚乱？
There’s no violence.
没有暴力。
People here are very peaceful.
这里的人们非常平和。
You think the economy is pretty good for Africa?
你认为非洲的经济很好吗？
Well, I would say it’s good.
嗯，我想说这很好。
How did you come to have your role in Tatu City?
您是如何在塔图市担任您的角色的？
In Tatu City, where I reside is just near the Tatu City area.
我住的地方在大图市，就在大图市地区附近。
As the community, we just have groupings where we go and you are shown how Kikuyus .
作为社区，我们只是在我们所去的地方进行分组，并向您展示基库尤人的生活方式。
.
。
.
。
Our tradition, we normally do enjoin and have our own ways of conducting our own selves.
我们的传统，我们通常会要求并有我们自己的行事方式。
I joined those wazees and I was initiated to that group.
我加入了那些 Wazees，并被邀请加入该团体。
I became so active to an extent that even then, they felt the role I’m playing to them, I need to be their elder and they chose me as the chairman.
我变得如此活跃，以至于即使在那时，他们也感受到了我对他们所扮演的角色，我需要成为他们的长辈，他们选择我作为主席。
Okay, I understand.
好吧，我明白了。
What makes you good at that?
是什么让你擅长于此？
What’s your quality that makes you a good elder?
你有什么品质让你成为一个好长辈？
It’s because of knowing how to coordinate people in the best way.
这是因为知道如何以最佳方式协调人们。
If you are a violent man, I just come, I talk with you in a polite way, we understand one another.
如果你是一个暴力的人，我就来，我以礼貌的方式与你交谈，我们互相理解。
I show you how you are supposed to live with the other people.
我告诉你应该如何与其他人一起生活。
I show you the goodness of peace and such kind of things.
我向你展示和平的美好以及诸如此类的事情。
It’s a lot of experience dealing with people.
与人打交道有很多经验。
Yes.
是的。
What would be a typical dispute that you have to decide or resolve?
您必须决定或解决的典型争议是什么？
A lot of them.
很多。
What would be an example?
举个什么例子？
What might happen where they need you?
他们需要你的地方可能会发生什么？
Example?
例子？
Yes.
是的。
Let’s say if there’s a fight between a man and a man, if there’s a person who have, let’s say, got somebody’s property, such kind of things, we sit down, talk it out.
比方说，如果一个男人和一个男人之间发生争执，如果一个人拥有了某人的财产，诸如此类的事情，我们就坐下来好好谈谈。
Somebody shooting the other, domestic violence, all of that.
有人开枪打死别人，家庭暴力，诸如此类。
What do you do that the court system does not do?
有哪些是你做但法院系统不做的？
Because you’re not police, but still you do something useful.
因为你不是警察，但你仍然做了一些有用的事情。
What we normally do, we as a group, we listen to one another very much.
我们通常做的事情，作为一个团队，我们非常倾听彼此的意见。
When one person reaches that stage of being told that you are a man now, you normally have to respect your elder.
当一个人达到了被告知你是一个男人的阶段时，你通常必须尊重你的长辈。
Those people do respect me.
那些人确实尊重我。
When I call you, when I tell you “Come and we’ll talk it out,” with my group, you cannot say you cannot come, because if you do, we normally discipline somebody.
当我打电话给你时，当我告诉你“来吧，我们会和我的团队讨论一下”时，你不能说你不能来，因为如果你这样做，我们通常会惩罚某人。
Not by beating, we just remove you from our group.
不是通过殴打，我们只是将您从我们的团队中删除。
When we isolate you from our group, you’ll feel that is not fair for you.
当我们将您与我们的团队隔离时，您会觉得这对您不公平。
You come back and say — and apologize.
你回来说“——”并道歉。
We take you back into the group.
我们带你回到小组。
If you’re isolated, you can’t be friends with those people anymore.
如果你被孤立了，你就不能再和那些人成为朋友了。
When we isolate you, we mean you are not allowed to interact in any way.
当我们隔离您时，我们意味着您不被允许以任何方式互动。
Any way.
反正。
Any business, anything with the other community .
任何生意，任何与其他社区的事情。
If it is so, definitely, you have to be a loser, because you might be needing one of those people to help you in business or something of the sort.
如果是这样，那么你肯定是一个失败者，因为你可能需要其中一个人来帮助你做生意或做类似的事情。
When you are isolated, this man tells you, “No. Go and cleanse yourself first with that group.”
当你被孤立的时候，这个人告诉你：“不行，先和那群人一起去净化一下自己。”
Does your family reject you also, or just your friends?
你的家人是否也拒绝你，或者只是你的朋友？
If your family rejects you, that is a family dispute.
如果你的家人拒绝你，那就是家庭纠纷。
If it comes to that, we take it in another way, because we have to know first, how does that dispute arise?
如果说到这个，我们就换个角度来看待，因为我们首先要知道，这个争议是怎么产生的？
It might be that your wife is the one who has a problem.
有问题的可能是你的妻子。
For that, we don’t interfere so much.
为此，我们不会过多干涉。
We leave it to the family.
我们把它留给家人。
If the man has the problem?
如果男人有问题呢？
If the family has a problem also, we chip in and we help them to resolve that dispute.
如果家庭也有问题，我们会出钱帮助他们解决纠纷。
By talking to both of them.
通过与他们两人交谈。
Yes.
是的。
Talking to get them to agree again.
谈话让他们再次同意。
Talking to both of the parties.
与双方交谈。
Yes.
是的。
What’s the biggest family problem that you see?
您认为最大的家庭问题是什么？
The most common one.
最常见的一种。
The most common one is, it happens when one man is so drunk, beats the woman, chases the woman, or the woman pushes with other men.
最常见的就是，一个男人喝醉了，打女人，追女人，或者女人和其他男人推搡。
Let’s call it adultery.
我们称之为通奸。
When she does that, at least we do normally chip in to resolve that issue, but not most common.
当她这样做时，至少我们通常会出钱解决这个问题，但不是最常见的。
That one, we normally leave it to the family.
那个，我们通常把它留给家人。
Not unless the family comes to us and tells us, “We need help in this.” We normally don’t like so much interfering in the family matters.
除非家人来找我们并告诉我们：“我们在这方面需要帮助。”我们通常不喜欢过多干涉家庭事务。
Problems with children?
孩子有问题吗？
You deal with those, or not so much?
你处理这些，还是不处理那么多？
In form of children, yes, we normally do, because in our group as men, we initiate small boys from childhood to adulthood.
是的，我们通常会以儿童的形式这样做，因为在我们作为男性的群体中，我们会引导小男孩从童年到成年。
We circumcise.
我们行割礼。
When you reach the age, we have groupings where we circumcise all Kikuyu boys.
当你达到这个年龄时，我们会分组对所有基库尤男孩进行割礼。
Kikuyu, Embu, boys from Meru.
基库尤人、恩布人、来自梅鲁的男孩。
GEMA, that is our community.
GEMA，这就是我们的社区。
We call it GEMA community, the group of that community.
我们称之为 GEMA 社区，该社区的团体。
We do have groups where we have our own doctors, qualified doctors.
我们确实有一些团体，有自己的医生，合格的医生。
Let’s say, like last year, we had one in Githunguri, here in Githunguri Primary School.
比方说，就像去年一样，我们在吉桑古里（Githunguri）小学也有一个。
That is where we were.
那就是我们所在的地方。
We had 350 boys whom we initiated.
我们发起了 350 名男孩。
We help them, we call them, we talk with them, tell them the rite of passage that one person is going , educate them, and after that, we stay with those boys for 10 days.
我们帮助他们，我们打电话给他们，我们和他们交谈，告诉他们一个人即将经历的成人仪式，教育他们，之后，我们和那些男孩在一起10天。
10 days?
10天？
Until that boy is healed.
直到那个男孩痊愈为止。
How old is the boy at this point?
此时男孩多大了？
At this point is when he finishes Standard 8 .
此时他已完成标准8级课程。
Okay.
好的。
While now he’s going to Form 1 .
现在他要上中一了。
We make sure we mentor that boy.
我们确保指导那个男孩。
At the same time, after the boy goes back to the parents, the following year, we make sure we prepare a seminar.
同时，在男孩第二年回到父母身边后，我们确保准备一个研讨会。
We call them , because we do normally follow them up to see whether this boy has good behaviors or whatever.
我们打电话给他们，因为我们通常会跟踪他们，看看这个男孩是否有良好的行为或其他什么。
If he tries to be misbehaved, let’s say, beer and the rest, we talk to that boy.
如果他试图行为不端，比如啤酒之类的，我们就会和那个男孩谈谈。
We make sure that we are molding somebody who can be able to come and join the community.
我们确保我们正在塑造一个能够加入社区的人。
There’s a ceremony surrounding this initiation?
围绕这个启动仪式有一个仪式吗？
Are there parties, or people get together, or how does that work?
是否有聚会或人们聚集在一起，或者这是如何运作的？
What happens, we have the doctors who initiate the boy, and we have old men coordinated by me, if it’s in my area that I’m the chairman now.
会发生什么，我们有医生来启动这个男孩，我们有由我协调的老人，如果我现在是我所在的地区的主席的话。
They are the wazees who talk with these children.
他们是与这些孩子交谈的 Wazees。
Show them how to live and whatever.
向他们展示如何生活等等。
If there was a problem you could fix in your community, one thing you could improve, what would it be?
如果您的社区中有一个问题可以解决，您可以改进一件事，那会是什么？
What I would wish very much, for example, like you people, when you come to this place, just try to help us, the area people.
我非常希望，例如，像你们一样，当你们来到这个地方时，尽力帮助我们，该地区的人们。
Try to come, bonding these people, because you have come, you got these people.
试着来，把这些人联系起来，因为你来了，你得到了这些人。
If you bond with them, we also welcome you as our brother, which is so good.
如果你和他们有联系，我们也欢迎你成为我们的兄弟，这真是太好了。
Kikuyu people in Kenya, do you think they’re different from the other groups, or the culture is different?
肯尼亚的基库尤人，你觉得他们和其他族群有什么不同，或者文化有什么不同吗？
How would you describe that?
你会如何描述这一点？
All the groups have their own culture.
所有群体都有自己的文化。
If it’s Kikuyu, they have their own.
如果是基库尤人，他们就有自己的。
If it’s Luos, they have their own.
如果是罗，他们就有自己的。
This is something that we met.
这是我们遇到的事情。
It is not something that we are creating.
它不是我们正在创造的东西。
It is from our old grand-grandfathers.
这是我们的老祖父传下来的。
How would you describe what is special about Kikuyu culture?
您如何描述基库尤文化的特别之处？
What I would describe about them, they are good.
我对他们的描述是，他们很好。
That is one thing.
这是一回事。
I’m not saying they are good because I’m a Kikuyu.
我并不是因为我是基库尤人就说它们很好。
I’m saying because they are hardworking people.
我这么说是因为他们是勤奋的人。
Many people say they’re very good at business.
很多人都说自己很擅长做生意。
They are friendly and good businesspeople.
他们是友好的、优秀的商人。
Yes.
是的。
They are business minded.
他们很有商业头脑。
They are not lazy people.
他们不是懒惰的人。
Not lazy.
不懒惰。
Do you think they’re more extroverted, more open?
你认为他们更外向、更开放吗？
More than.
多于。
Even if you go to any part of this country, there’s nowhere you can go and don’t find a Kikuyu.
即使你去这个国家的任何地方，你都找不到基库尤人。
If you move from here to Mombasa, you will get a lot of Kikuyus.
如果你从这里搬到蒙巴萨，你会遇到很多基库尤人。
If you go everywhere, Kikuyus are always there.
如果你去任何地方，基库尤人总是在那里。
They like interacting with the other communities.
他们喜欢与其他社区互动。
The way marriage works for Kikuyu, is it different from the other groups?
基库尤人的婚姻方式与其他群体有什么不同吗？
Marriage?
婚姻？
Marriage, courtship, how you decide whom to marry, the ceremony, everything.
婚姻、求爱、如何决定与谁结婚、仪式，一切。
Is it the same or different?
是相同还是不同？
There’s no difference, because we also marry other communities.
没有什么区别，因为我们也与其他社区通婚。
A Kikuyu is allowed to marry a Kamba.
基库尤人可以与康巴人结婚。
Yes, we intermarry with those communities.
是的，我们与这些社区通婚。
You marry at the same age, younger, older, or that’s all the same?
你们在相同的年龄结婚，年轻，年长，还是都一样？
It depends on the feeling of that one person.
这取决于那个人的感觉。
You can marry whomever you want.
你可以嫁给任何你想要的人。
Yes, you are free.
是的，你自由了。
We don’t have limitations, that you should marry this, or that, or that, but we do not encourage old men to marry small children.
我们没有限制你应该娶这个、那个、那个，但我们不鼓励老人娶小孩。
Sure.
当然。
Of course not.
当然不是。
That’s not good.
那可不好。
How many children do you think a typical family wants to have now?
您认为现在一个典型的家庭想要有多少个孩子？
In Nairobi?
在内罗毕？
In Nairobi, mostly as I can see, now these young people are preferring two, three.
在内罗毕，正如我所见，现在这些年轻人更喜欢两个、三个。
Two or three.
两三个。
In our times, in our old wazees, like in my family, my father had eight.
在我们这个时代，在我们的老瓦兹里，就像在我家里一样，我父亲有八个孩子。
Eight?
八？
Yes.
是的。
Which do you think is better?
您认为哪个更好？
According to today’s economy, I would say we don’t much get 10 children, which you won’t be able to look at after.
根据今天的经济状况，我想说我们不会有10个孩子，你无法照顾他们。
It is better you have three or four, whom you know very well, you are going to cater to them until their adulthood.
最好有三四个，你很熟悉的人，你要照顾他们直到他们成年。
There were some countries where families just have one.
有些国家的家庭只有一台。
Is that weird to you?
你觉得很奇怪吗？
You go to Korea, people have, on average, about one.
你去韩国，人们平均拥有大约一个。
A little less, actually.
实际上少了一点。
Average of one is not good, because accidents do normally happen.
平均一个并不好，因为事故通常会发生。
Sure.
当然。
If you have one child, and he dies, you are left with nothing.
如果你有一个孩子，他死了，你就一无所有。
Why?
为什么？
Get two or three.
得到两三个。
In the case of anything, you are left with something.
无论如何，你都会留下一些东西。
If you have one and he dies, and you are old, you cannot get another one.
如果你有一个，而他死了，而你又老了，你就不能再得到另一个。
Do you see, you’d be left like that?
你看到了吗，你会就这样被留下吗？
Yes.
是的。
Children here, do they take good care of their parents and grandparents?
这里的孩子们，照顾好自己的父母、祖父母吗？
Yes, they do it.
是的，他们做到了。
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
That’s expected?
这是预期的吗？
It’s part of the culture.
这是文化的一部分。
It is this, but we don’t force them to.
就是这样，但我们不强迫他们这样做。
It will depend on your relationship between your children and you, your own self.
这将取决于你的孩子和你自己之间的关系。
Because there are some men or women who do not care for their children.
因为有些男人或女人不关心他们的孩子。
They just get the children, and they let them go away.
他们只是得到了孩子，然后就让他们走了。
It’s good to interact with children.
和孩子们互动很好。
Show them you are their father, show them you are their mother.
向他们展示你是他们的父亲，向他们展示你是他们的母亲。
These children will give back.
这些孩子将会回报。
The way you bring up children is the way they will also give back to you.
你怎样养育孩子，他们就会怎样回报你。
Today, the grandparents, do they help bring up the children, even if there’s only two?
如今，祖父母们，即使只有两个孩子，他们也会帮忙抚养孩子吗？
Yes.
是的。
They still do?
他们还这样做吗？
Yes.
是的。
What if the family has moved to Nairobi, moved to Mombasa, and the grandparents are far away?
如果一家人搬到了内罗毕，搬到了蒙巴萨，而祖父母又很远怎么办？
How do things work?
事情如何运作？
For us Kikuyus, if somebody lives far, we do normally meet.
对于我们基库尤人来说，如果有人住得很远，我们通常会见面。
Let’s say, during the holidays, you make sure you go home, you enjoy it with them.
比方说，在假期期间，你一定要回家，和他们一起享受。
How do you get home?
你怎么回家？
You take a bus?
你坐公共汽车吗？
You take a bus, or if you have means, you have a vehicle, you just go there.
你坐公共汽车，或者如果你有办法，你有车，你就去那里。
Just drive?
就开车吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes, drive, stay with your family for at least two or three days, then you go back to your job.
是的，开车，和家人在一起至少两三天，然后就回去工作。
Now, I have read in the newspapers, the cost of living in Kenya is much higher now than a few years ago.
现在，我在报纸上看到，肯尼亚现在的生活成本比几年前高得多。
It is.
这是。
Why did that happen?
为什么会发生这种事？
I don’t know whether it’s because of the population.
不知道是不是人口的原因。
I don’t know whether it’s because of the development we have here.
我不知道是不是因为我们这里的发展。
Actually, for that one, I cannot tell you the .
事实上，对于这一点，我无法告诉你。
.
。
.
。
But it’s because of .
但这是因为。
.
。
.
。
We have a high — what do we call it?
我们有一个高潮——我们称之为什么？
Let’s say, if you look in one way or another, the climate has changed.
比方说，如果你从某种角度看，气候已经发生了变化。
When the climate has changed, we don’t have enough food.
当气候发生变化时，我们就没有足够的食物。
Do you get me, right?
你明白我的意思吗？
When we don’t have enough food, you expect that life has to be harder, because there are some people who depend on the rain.
当我们没有足够的食物时，你会认为生活会更加艰难，因为有些人依赖雨水生存。
Do you get me, right?
你明白我的意思吗？
From that, if you go to, let’s say, to a place like in Nairobi right now, as we are living, the cost of living also is so high.
由此看来，如果你现在去内罗毕这样的地方，就像我们现在生活的那样，生活成本也很高。
Cost.
成本。
Let me talk about the sector I’m in: transportation.
先说一下我所在的行业：交通运输。
Life is very hard because of the increase of petroleum.
由于石油的增加，生活变得非常困难。
Because, if I could say, the price of petrol is too high, and I cannot be able to hike the price for the person whom I’m carrying, because these people don’t have money.
因为，如果我可以说，汽油价格太高了，我不能为我所携带的人提高价格，因为这些人没有钱。
I have to dig deeper into my pocket to sustain what is being added in the petrol .
我必须掏更多钱来维持添加的汽油。
What do you think should be done to change things because it costs so much?
您认为应该采取什么措施来改变现状，因为成本如此之高？
What needs to be done is now .
现在需要做的就是。
.
。
.
。
That is now up to the government now, to know how they are going to look at their people.
现在轮到政府来了解他们将如何看待他们的人民了。
Yes, because we now, we are tied up.
是的，因为我们现在，我们被束缚了。
Do you know what should be changed to improve this thing?
你知道应该改变什么来改善这个事情吗？
Because, one, if we say the climate, that is up to God now.
因为，第一，如果我们说气候，那现在就取决于上帝了。
We have to pray to God now to give us good rains.
我们现在必须祈求上帝赐予我们好雨。
Like this year we had good rains.
就像今年，我们下了好雨。
What we could do is, we know why we are not having enough rain.
我们能做的是，我们知道为什么降雨量不够。
Why?
为什么？
We plant a lot of trees.
我们种了很多树。
We stop logging.
我们停止记录。
We plant a lot of trees so that we could get enough rain.
我们种了很多树，这样我们就能得到足够的雨水。
When we go back to the side of the government now, the government — it’s for them to know how they’re going to regularize these prices, so that at least life should be a little bit .
当我们现在回到政府一边时，政府——他们应该知道如何规范这些价格，这样至少生活应该有一点。
.
。
.
。
Yes.
是的。
Do you use mobile money to buy things?
你用手机钱买东西吗？
Money in your smartphone?
你的智能手机里有钱吗？
Yes.
是的。
How does that work for you?
这对你有什么作用？
That’s easy, that’s hard, or how is it?
这很容易，那很难，或者怎么样？
It is not hard.
这并不难。
It’s easy, because when we get money, nowadays we even use phones when we are paying things.
这很容易，因为当我们拿到钱时，现在我们甚至在付款时都使用手机。
It’s better because we don’t lose a lot of money when we use, even though there’s a lot of tax in it.
这是更好的，因为我们在使用时不会损失很多钱，尽管其中有很多税。
Do you order things online?
你在网上订购东西吗？
You buy online and someone sends it to you?
你在网上买的，有人寄给你吗？
No, for me I don’t.
不，对我来说我不。
Younger people do, or?
年轻人会这样，还是？
Young people do.
年轻人就是这样。
What kind of things do they buy online?
他们在网上购买什么样的东西？
Oh, normally they buy things that they don’t have — you don’t have here.
哦，通常他们会买他们没有的东西——你这里没有。
Things from other countries.
来自其他国家的东西。
From other countries, like vehicles, kitchen wares and whatever, even building materials.
来自其他国家的，比如车辆、厨房用具等等，甚至是建筑材料。
They do normally do it.
他们通常会这样做。
Why don’t you buy online?
你为什么不在网上购买？
Me, I’m a little bit analog.
我，我有点类似。
Do you listen to YouTube at all?
你听 YouTube 吗？
It’s rarely.
很少有。
What do you listen to?
你听什么？
The common radio.
普通收音机。
Common radio?
普通收音机？
Yes.
是的。
What kind of music?
什么样的音乐？
Banga music, or you listen to Congo music?
Banga 音乐，或者您听刚果音乐？
Traditional music.
传统音乐。
Traditional?
传统的？
Our traditional music, yes.
我们的传统音乐，是的。
What kind of traditional?
什么样的传统？
Kikuyu?
基库尤？
I like the Kikuyu or Luo music, whichever.
我喜欢基库尤语或洛语音乐，无论哪个。
I like those very much.
我非常喜欢那些。
This will be on the radio.
这将在广播中播出。
Do you like music from other African countries?
你喜欢其他非洲国家的音乐吗？
Definitely, yes.
绝对是的。
What else do you like?
你还喜欢什么？
Oh, you are talking of?
哦，你说的是？
What you like.
你喜欢什么。
Yes, Nigeria.
是的，尼日利亚。
There’s a lot of Nigerian music in America now.
现在美国有很多尼日利亚音乐。
All countries.
所有国家。
All countries?
所有国家？
Yes, the only thing the music should .
是的，这是音乐唯一应该做的事情。
.
。
.
。
Whichever music, if it’s good.
不管什么音乐，只要好听就行。
COWEN: Do you listen to any American music?
COWEN：你听美国音乐吗？
If it chances to be on the air, I do.
如果有机会播出，我会的。
You do?
你做？
Yes.
是的。
What do you listen to?
你听什么？
Whichever music is being .
无论正在播放哪种音乐。
.
。
.
。
Whichever is playing on the radio?
收音机里正在播放哪一个？
Yes.
是的。
You have public utilities, right?
你们有公用事业，对吗？
You get electricity, water.
你得到电、水。
How good are those services?
这些服务有多好？
The services that we are being given by .
我们所提供的服务。
.
。
.
。
That you get.
你得到的。
Your electricity, is it reliable?
你的电，可靠吗？
Yes, it is.
是的。
It is.
这是。
And your water?
你的水呢？
Even the water, we have enough water.
就连水，我们也有足够的水。
You have enough water?
你有足够的水吗？
Yes, from these boreholes.
是的，从这些钻孔中。
We are getting water from these.
我们从这些中获取水。
You get water from a well, or from piping, or how does your water come?
您从井中或管道中取水，或者您的水是如何来的？
Let’s say in our area, this area we have now, we have people who supply water from wells, and also from the county government.
比如说我们这个地区，我们现在这个地区，我们有打井的人供水，也有县政府的人供水。
Yes, and you feel that’s safe water?
是的，您认为这是安全的水吗？
We could say it’s safe because what they normally do when we get this water, they treat it so that we can consume it.
我们可以说它是安全的，因为当我们得到这些水时，他们通常会对其进行处理，以便我们可以饮用。
What are some of the other expenses for a family in Kenya?
肯尼亚的家庭还有哪些其他开支？
There’s food, transportation, rent.
有食物、交通、房租。
What else is a big problem?
还有什么大问题呢？
Education.
教育。
Education?
教育？
Yes.
是的。
If you send your kid to school, the kid is 10, the school is free, or you have to pay?
如果你送孩子去学校，孩子10岁了，学校是免费的，还是你要付钱？
You have to pay.
你必须付钱。
Even for government school?
即使是公立学校？
In government , you also have to pay, but little money.
在政府，你也必须付钱，但钱很少。
Yes.
是的。
You think the schools are good?
你觉得学校好不好？
I would say it’s good because I’m used to those schools.
我会说这很好，因为我已经习惯了那些学校。
We don’t have more, but we can’t say they’re better than those.
我们没有更多，但我们不能说它们比这些更好。
You normally adapt what you see or what you get there.
你通常会调整你所看到的或你在那里得到的东西。
Funerals, do they cost a lot of money?
办丧事要花很多钱吗？
Now, for the funeral, it depends on the family.
现在的丧事，全靠家人了。
Because for the funeral, if the family feels they’re going to buy an expensive hearse or coffin, it’s on them.
因为在葬礼上，如果家人觉得要买昂贵的灵车或棺材，他们就得买。
That one depends on how the family is, because there are some who don’t require a lot of money; there are some who like to use a lot of money.
这个要看家庭情况，因为有的人不需要很多钱，有的人则需要很多钱。有些人喜欢用很多钱。
That one will normally depend on how the family is.
这通常取决于家庭状况。
The family pays for everything, or the community shares the cost?
家庭支付一切费用，还是社区分担费用？
Most of the times for the funerals, the communities chip in.
大多数时候，社区都会参与葬礼。
Who decides how much people pay?
谁决定人们支付多少钱？
Nobody decides.
没有人决定。
You give what you have.
你给予你所拥有的。
You are not being forced to, “You have to give this.” No.
你不会被迫说：“你必须给出这个。”不。
People who have more money, they give more money?
钱越多的人，捐的钱就越多吗？
Definitely, yes.
绝对是的。
Do you ever have disputes over this that you have to judge?
你们是否曾为此发生过争执，需要你们来判断？
No.
不。
Because they always agree?
因为他们总是同意？
Yes.
是的。
I’m surprised they always agree.
我很惊讶他们总是同意。
In my country, they would not always agree.
在我的国家，他们并不总是同意。
I don’t know why.
我不知道为什么。
In this country of ours, we don’t do it like that.
在我们这个国家，我们不会这样做。
If you could change something about the government in Kenya, what would you change?
如果你可以改变肯尼亚政府的一些事情，你会改变什么？
What’s the biggest problem?
最大的问题是什么？
If I could?
如果我能？
You could change something about government here.
你可以在这里改变一些关于政府的事情。
They would do something new, stop doing something bad, change some law.
他们会做一些新的事情，停止做坏事，改变一些法律。
What would you change?
你会改变什么？
For that one, I couldn’t say.
对于这一点，我不能说。
There’s nothing I can or cannot change, because I depend with what my government tells me to do.
没有什么是我能或不能改变的，因为我依赖政府告诉我做什么。
Yes.
是的。
So, there’s nothing you can change?
那么，你没有什么可以改变的吗？
Not unless the government comes in and tells me, “Change this and change this.” They are our leaders, and we have elected them, so we have to follow what they tell us to do.
除非政府进来告诉我，“改变这个，改变这个。”他们是我们的领导人，我们选举了他们，所以我们必须听从他们的指示。
Sometimes, do you wish they would tell you different things?
有时，您希望他们告诉您不同的事情吗？
We, as elders, we don’t dispute with the governments.
我们作为长辈，不会与政府发生争执。
You don’t dispute?
你不争论吗？
Yes, we don’t.
是的，我们不这样做。
You help enforce it in a way, right?
你以某种方式帮助执行它，对吗？
We don’t force them to do things, we depend on what they tell us.
我们不会强迫他们做事，我们依赖他们告诉我们的事情。
Women’s rights movements in Kenya: Do you see a lot of that?
肯尼亚的女权运动：您看到很多吗？
Feminism, bigger role for women, more women working?
女权主义、女性角色更大、更多女性工作？
For women, let’s say, I can’t talk much, even though they have their own rights.
对于女性来说，我不能说太多，尽管她们有自己的权利。
What do you think of feminism in Kenya?
您如何看待肯尼亚的女权主义？
That women should work, have equal say as the men, have more rights?
女性应该工作，拥有与男性平等的发言权，拥有更多的权利？
No, no, no, we are all equal here.
不不不，我们在这里都是平等的。
All equal.
一切平等。
Women have their rights, and we do have our own rights.
妇女有她们的权利，我们也有自己的权利。
Yes.
是的。
So, you think women have equal rights already?
那么，您认为女性已经享有平等权利了吗？
Even though when we come to our community, there are some stages that we limit.
即使当我们来到我们的社区时，我们也会限制一些阶段。
You cannot expect a woman to be in control in a manly home.
你不能指望女人在男人气概的家庭中占据主导地位。
No.
不。
In government, how many women are there?
政府中有多少女性？
That one I can’t say.
这个我不能说。
The president is not a woman, right?
总统不是女的吧？
Yes.
是的。
People in the legislature, there are mostly men?
立法机关里的人，以男性居多？
No, even women.
不，即使是女人。
We created another .
我们创建了另一个。
.
。
.
。
Let’s say, in the Senate we have women reps, so that they could bring that, the gender , to be almost the same.
比方说，在参议院我们有女性代表，这样她们就可以使性别几乎相同。
How was it here during times of COVID?
新冠疫情期间这里的情况如何？
Was it a big change, or not so much?
这是一个很大的变化，还是没有那么大？
By then life was too hard, because that was something that we were not used to.
那时的生活太艰难了，因为那是我们不习惯的。
We had a very hard time.
我们过得很艰难。
Things closed down, or everything stayed open?
一切都关门了，还是一切都保持开放？
Things closed down.
事情就这样结束了。
We had to stay indoors.
我们不得不待在室内。
There was a lot of curfew.
有很多宵禁。
The times that you needed to work, you were told, “No, you can’t go.”
当你需要工作的时候，你被告知：“不，你不能去。”
How many people got COVID?
有多少人感染了新冠病毒？
Actually, I cannot tell you the actual figure, but a lot of people.
其实我不能告诉你具体的数字，但是很多人。
Did you?
你有吗？
No, I didn’t.
不，我没有。
You were lucky?
你很幸运吗？
Let’s say, it was God, because I also went for the vaccination.
可以说，这是上帝，因为我也去接种疫苗了。
I took the medication, so I thought .
我吃了药，所以我想。
.
。
.
。
You took the vaccine?
你打疫苗了吗？
Yes, I did.
是的，我做到了。
Most people did here?
大多数人都在这里吗？
Yes.
是的。
Which vaccine was it?
是哪一种疫苗？
Chinese, American, do you know?
中国人、美国人，你知道吗？
British?
英国人？
They were all.
他们都是。
The people were taking all.
人们夺走了一切。
All?
全部？
Yes.
是的。
Do you know which one you had?
你知道你有哪一个吗？
I can’t remember, actually.
其实我不记得了。
How was it to stay at home for so long?
在家呆了这么久感觉如何？
Was that hard?
那很难吗？
It was hard.
这很难。
It was tough, because you cannot expect being told at once, “Stay at home,” and you are not used to it.
这很艰难，因为你不能指望立即被告知“呆在家里”，而且你也不习惯。
It was too hard.
太难了。
Yes, I think it was very hard in many places.
是的，我认为很多地方都非常困难。
Yes, and we lost a lot.
是的，我们失去了很多。
A lot of people died.
很多人死了。
Even economically, we lost a lot.
即使在经济上，我们也损失了很多。
I think that time of COVID is the one that brought even these hardships we have even today.
我认为，正是新冠疫情时期才给我们带来了今天的这些困难。
We have not yet returned to our normal because of that period.
由于那段时期，我们还没有恢复正常。
How much do you worry about crime?
您对犯罪有多担心？
People stealing things from you.
人们偷你的东西。
Is crime a big problem for you, or do you feel it’s very safe?
犯罪对您来说是一个大问题，还是您觉得它很安全？
Some time back, let’s say in two or three years ago, there were a lot of crimes, but nowadays, the government has tried to regularize the crime in these areas of ours.
以前，比如说两三年前，有很多犯罪行为，但是现在，政府试图将我们这些地区的犯罪行为规范化。
With more police, or what do they do?
增加警察，或者他们做什么？
Not even more police: Also involving the community.
甚至没有更多的警察：也涉及社区。
The government decided to introduce this thing we call Nyumba Kumi.
政府决定推出这个我们称之为 Nyumba Kumi 的东西。
When it was introduced, the Nyumba Kumi, if they noted there was somebody who was not good in that family, they had to report to the nearest so that that person could be dealt with.
当它被引入时，Nyumba Kumi，如果他们发现那个家庭里有人不好，他们必须向最近的人报告，以便可以处理那个人。
It did help a lot.
它确实有很大帮助。
At the same time, they also used the wazees and whatever in the community to identify all these thugs and whatever.
与此同时，他们还利用社区中的 Wazees 等工具来识别所有这些暴徒等。
You think crime will keep on getting better in Kenya?
您认为肯尼亚的犯罪率会继续好转吗？
Yes.
是的。
For this reason?
为此原因？
Yes.
是的。
Why do you think crime is worse in Nairobi than in smaller cities?
为什么您认为内罗毕的犯罪比小城市更严重？
Definitely, you expect because the life in town is harsher than in the rural areas.
当然，这是你所期望的，因为城里的生活比农村地区更艰苦。
It’s just tougher to live there.
住在那里更困难。
Yes.
是的。
Costs are higher, you need more money.
成本更高，你需要更多的钱。
In town you need money, and when you need money and don’t have a job, you expect yourself to drive yourself to such kind of things.
在城里你需要钱，当你需要钱却没有工作时，你就会期望自己驱使自己去做这样的事情。
What do you think is the biggest problem in the slums?
您认为贫民窟最大的问题是什么？
If you go to, what, Majengo, one of the slums?
如果你去，什么，Majengo，贫民窟之一？
Employment.
就业。
Employment.
就业。
So, not enough good jobs?
那么，好工作还不够多吗？
Yes.
是的。
Future jobs for Kenya, what do you think they will be?
您认为肯尼亚未来的工作岗位会是什么？
The future jobs in Kenya?
肯尼亚未来的工作？
That’s what I was saying, if we could have people who can help in getting us good jobs and whatever, trying to help these young people get jobs, I think we could just minimize these kind of hardships that these young boys get.
这就是我所说的，如果我们有人可以帮助我们找到好工作等等，试图帮助这些年轻人找到工作，我认为我们可以最大限度地减少这些年轻男孩所遭受的困难。
When President Obama visited Kenya, I think it was 2015, did you care?
奥巴马总统访问肯尼亚时，我记得是 2015 年，你关心吗？
Were you excited?
你兴奋吗？
You don’t care?
你不在乎吗？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
Well, for such a person visiting here, everybody was excited because it was even being told that his roots are in Kenya.
嗯，对于这样一个人来到这里，每个人都很兴奋，因为甚至被告知他的根源在肯尼亚。
We were happy about that man coming to visit us.
我们很高兴那个人来拜访我们。
We see our brother who has gone somewhere and become a great person.
我们看到我们的兄弟已经去了某个地方并成为了一个伟大的人。
He’s still very popular here.
他在这里仍然很受欢迎。
Yes, more than.
是的，超过。
He is popular.
他很受欢迎。
The Kenyans who move to America, what do people think of them?
移居美国的肯尼亚人，人们对他们有何看法？
They’re happy, or they view them as totally different now?
他们很高兴，或者他们现在认为他们完全不同了？
What’s the image?
图像是什么？
For that one I can’t say much because I’ve never visited that area.
对于那个我不能说太多，因为我从未去过那个地区。
You haven’t been to America, but people talk about those who leave, right?
你没去过美国，但人们会谈论那些离开的人，对吗？
At the same time, I don’t have a relative who has been there.
同时，我也没有去过那里的亲戚。
How about Kenyans who go to England?
去英国的肯尼亚人怎么样？
Actually, they normally say when they go there they get good, the place is good, or such kind of a thing.
事实上，他们通常会说，当他们去那里时，他们感觉很好，这个地方很好，或者诸如此类的话。
Do you think they’re happier, or do you think they’re happier here?
你认为他们更幸福，还是他们在这里更幸福？
The ones who leave?
那些离开的人？
Definitely, that one I cannot answer because, I told you, I have never had a relative who can talk one on one and tell me.
当然，这个问题我无法回答，因为我告诉过你，我从来没有一个亲戚可以一对一地交谈并告诉我。
There was a change in the constitution of Kenya.
肯尼亚宪法发生了变化。
It gave a lot more power to the counties, right?
它给了县更多的权力，对吗？
Was that a good idea?
这是个好主意吗？
Yes, it was a good idea because the help that the government used to give the community, when it was devolved to the people, it became so nearer to the people, more than when it was in the national government.
是的，这是一个好主意，因为政府向社区提供的帮助，当它下放给人民时，它变得更加贴近人民，比在国家政府时更贴近人民。
Because if there is anything like development and whatever, that money is in the counties.
因为如果有发展之类的事情的话，钱就在县里。
It’s easier for the governor to deal with this work than it was in the national government, yes.
是的，州长处理这项工作比在国家政府更容易。
I’m sure you know many foreigners come here to see safari, to see animals, elephants.
我相信你知道很多外国人来这里参观野生动物，看动物、大象。
Do you care about these animals?
你关心这些动物吗？
Are you excited, or you’ve seen so many it’s just ordinary for you?
您是否感到兴奋，或者您已经看到了这么多对您来说很平常的事情？
What’s your attitude?
你的态度是什么？
We do care about , because it is even a boost for us for the revenue.
我们确实关心，因为这甚至对我们的收入有促进作用。
When new people come, we ship in something.
当新人到来时，我们会运送一些东西。
We spend money here.
我们在这里花钱。
Yes, you spend money here, and our economy is boosted a little bit.
是的，你在这里花钱，我们的经济就提振了一点。
If you see an elephant, you personally, are you excited?
如果您看到大象，您个人会感到兴奋吗？
Or do you say, “Oh, I’ve seen a thousand elephants.
或者你会说：“哦，我见过一千头大象。
I don’t care.”
我不在乎。”
I’m also excited because we are not mostly used to it.
我也很兴奋，因为我们大多不太习惯。
The things that cannot excite me is this thing you are living with here time and again.
不能让我兴奋的是你一次又一次和你一起生活的这个东西。
Let’s say something like a dog, a cat, domestic things.
比如说狗、猫、家庭用品。
We cannot be excited for such kind of things.
我们不能为这样的事情感到兴奋。
But when you go get a leopard there, at least you have to be excited.
但当你去那里抓到一头豹子时，至少你必须感到兴奋。
Which animal excites you the most to see?
哪种动物最让你兴奋？
Who, me?
谁，我？
You.
你。
Hippo?
河马？
Something like a lion.
像狮子一样的东西。
COWEN: Lion?
考恩：狮子？
Yes, because I’m not used to it so much.
是的，因为我不太习惯。
The lions — if you see one, are you afraid?
狮子 — 如果你看到一只，你会害怕吗？
Or maybe they’re afraid of you.
或者也许他们害怕你。
You have to be afraid because you have the experience that if it chances to get you, it’s going to eat you.
你必须感到害怕，因为你有这样的经验：如果它有机会抓住你，它就会吃掉你。
Do you ever go on a safari as a guide?
您曾经作为导游参加过狩猎旅行吗？
Or do you go to Maasai Mara to see the animals?
或者你去马赛马拉看动物？
Well, I normally don’t, because in my area in Nyeri, I just see these animals openly there.
嗯，我通常不会，因为在我所在的涅里地区，我只是公开地看到这些动物。
You just see them normally.
你只是正常地看到它们。
You don’t need to go anywhere.
你不需要去任何地方。
There’s no point of going to all that much spending, and I could see them on my way home.
花那么多钱是没有意义的，而且我可以在回家的路上看到他们。
Have you seen leopard?
你见过豹子吗？
Many people say leopard is hard to see.
很多人说豹子很难看到。
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
In our area, we have those leopards.
在我们地区，有那些豹子。
You see all the different birds in your area, or many of them?
您看到您所在地区的所有不同的鸟类，还是其中的许多？
Yes.
是的。
I do see them.
我确实看到了他们。
Is that interesting to you, the birds?
鸟儿们，这对你们来说有趣吗？
It is not that much interesting because I’m used to them.
这并不是那么有趣，因为我已经习惯了。
What do you think is the attitude here towards China, Chinese people?
您认为这里的中国人对中国的态度是什么？
Do you think they’re welcome, or there’s prejudice, or?
你认为他们受欢迎，还是存在偏见？
Well, what we normally do here in our country, if somebody is coming to help us, then you expect us to be friendly with that person, but if somebody’s coming to bring problems with that, we’d say, “No, that’s not a good person.”
嗯，我们在我们国家通常做的事情是，如果有人来帮助我们，那么你希望我们与那个人友好，但如果有人来带来问题，我们会说，“不，那不是一个好人。”
You think China has helped Kenya overall?
您认为中国总体上帮助了肯尼亚吗？
Well, I could say yes, because they have come to help our young boys.
嗯，我可以说是的，因为他们是来帮助我们的小男孩的。
When they come to do the roads and whatever, they employ our young boys and whatever, who are unemployed.
当他们来修路之类的时候，他们雇用我们失业的小男孩之类的。
They build roads, they build buildings, and that’s good for people.
他们修建道路、建造建筑物，这对人们有好处。
Yes.
是的。
Does America help you at all?
美国对你有帮助吗？
They also do.
他们也这样做。
What do we do to help?
我们可以做什么来提供帮助？
Because when they come and start their projects or whatever — when, let’s say, we see these people, like these who came to Tatu City, they’re also helping us because they come and we get these industries here.
因为当他们来开始他们的项目或其他什么的时候——比方说，当我们看到这些人，就像那些来到塔图市的人一样，他们也在帮助我们，因为他们来了，我们在这里建立了这些产业。
These industries — they employ our youth, which is a boost to living here.
这些产业 ——它们雇佣了我们的年轻人，这促进了这里的生活。
Are there groups of people who come who don’t help?
是否有一群人来了却没有提供帮助？
Who make things worse?
谁让事情变得更糟？
I couldn’t say so, because I’ve not gone to that study so much.
我不能这么说，因为我没有经常去那个研究。
Do you worry about Kenya’s neighbors?
您担心肯尼亚的邻国吗？
You have a border with Ethiopia, but there’s been a big war in Ethiopia.
你与埃塞俄比亚有边界，但埃塞俄比亚发生了一场大战。
Do you worry this will affect Kenya?
您担心这会影响肯尼亚吗？
Somalia, right?
索马里，对吗？
I do worry, but definitely, I can do nothing, because we don’t know why those people are fighting.
我确实担心，但我绝对无能为力，因为我们不知道那些人为什么要打架。
They have their own domestic things there.
他们在那里有自己的家居用品。
I prefer to mind my own.
我更喜欢管自己的事。
If you help them with dispute resolution, do you think you could improve it for them?
如果你帮助他们解决争议，你认为你可以为他们改进吗？
If it can be, if we can do that, it’s good.
如果可以的话，如果我们能做到的话，那就太好了。
We can help them if we can.
如果可以的话，我们可以帮助他们。
If we can reach there and be able to help with disputes and whatever, it’s good.
如果我们能够到达那里并能够帮助解决纠纷之类的事情，那就太好了。
It is always good to have friendly ties and get your neighbor without a lot of vitas and whatever, fighting and whatever.
保持友好关系总是好的，让你的邻居没有太多的维塔斯之类的，打架之类的。
It’s good to have a good neighbor.
有一个好邻居真是太好了。
Yes.
是的。
A lot of people from India live in Kenya, of course.
当然，很多印度人住在肯尼亚。
They’ve lived here maybe 100 years, the families.
他们一家人在这里住了大概一百年了。
Do you think of them as Kenyan, or do you think still it’s like different?
你认为他们是肯尼亚人，还是仍然认为他们是不同的？
You think they’re Indian?
你以为他们是印度人？
What I believe, if you come here — let’s say, you come here, and you acquire property here, if you get a child when you are here, I would say that child is a Kenyan.
我相信，如果你来到这里 ——比如说，你来到这里，你在这里获得财产，如果你在这里生了一个孩子，我会说那个孩子是肯尼亚人。
You’re not supposed to be chased by anybody.
你不应该被任何人追赶。
You have decided to come.
你已经决定来了。
You’re also a human being.
你也是一个人。
I believe I can go and live anywhere as long as I’m accommodated there.
我相信我可以去任何地方居住，只要那里有我的住处。
Do you like Indian food?
你喜欢印度菜吗？
I wouldn’t say whether I like it or not because I’ve never .
我不会说我是否喜欢它，因为我从来没有。
.
。
.
。
You don’t eat it.
你不吃它。
I don’t eat it.
我不吃它。
I’ve never .
我从来没有。
.
。
.
。
You eat ugali, Kenyan food.
你吃的是肯尼亚食物“ugali”。
Yes, I’m used to my normal food.
是的，我已经习惯了正常的食物。
You like ugali?
你喜欢乌加利吗？
More than.
多于。
What else do you eat?
你还吃什么？
For a normal meal, what else do you eat, besides ugali?
正常的一餐，除了乌加利，你还吃什么？
Nyama choma.
尼亚玛乔玛。
What is that?
那是什么？
Nyama choma?
尼亚玛乔玛？
Nyama choma, it is the meat we slaughter from our goats and whatever.
Nyama choma，这是我们从山羊身上宰杀的肉等等。
Does goat meat here have a special or sacred status?
山羊肉在这里有特殊或神圣的地位吗？
Is it the best meat?
这是最好的肉吗？
Well, I would say yes, because when we are doing our sacrifices, we men, we Kikuyu, we normally use those goats, those lambs.
嗯，我会说是的，因为当我们进行祭祀时，我们男人，我们基库尤人，我们通常使用那些山羊，那些羔羊。
That’s your favorite food?
那是你最喜欢的食物？
Not really.
并不真地。
What’s your favorite?
你最喜欢什么？
Vegetables.
蔬菜。
What kind?
什么样的？
At my age I don’t prefer eating a lot of meat so much.
在我这个年纪，我不太喜欢吃很多肉。
I prefer taking these local foods.
我更喜欢吃这些当地的食物。
What kinds of vegetables might you have here?
你们这里可能有什么种类的蔬菜？
Here?
这里？
Yes, that you eat.
是的，就是你吃的。
We do have a lot of them.
我们确实有很多。
What would you eat?
你会吃什么？
A normal meal?
正常吃饭吗？
Definitely, yes.
绝对是的。
I do.
我愿意。
The young people, do they eat the same things you eat, or they eat very different things?
年轻人，他们吃的东西和你们吃的一样吗，还是吃的东西很不同？
Young people prefer taking these junk foods.
年轻人更喜欢吃这些垃圾食品。
Those from the supermarkets, chips and whatever, of which is not really good for them.
那些来自超市的、薯条之类的东西，对他们来说并不是真正的好处。
They should eat the foods that we wazees eat that can live longer and live a little bit healthier.
他们应该吃我们wazees吃的食物，这样可以活得更久，活得更健康一点。
Are you religious?
你信教吗？
Do you go to church?
你去教堂吗？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
Christian, or Muslim, or?
基督徒，还是穆斯林，还是？
I’m a Christian.
我是基督徒。
Christian.
基督教。
What kind?
什么样的？
Protestant?
新教？
No, I’m a Catholic.
不，我是天主教徒。
Catholic.
天主教徒。
Yes.
是的。
What about Catholic is more appealing to you?
天主教的哪一点对你更有吸引力？
I was brought up a Catholic, from my childhood, and I came to like it, because Catholics are not all that much controversial.
我从小就是天主教徒，我开始喜欢它，因为天主教徒没有那么大的争议。
Being religious, does that help your work as community elder?
信仰宗教，这对你作为社区长老的工作有帮助吗？
Yes.
是的。
How does that relate?
这有什么关系？
How does it connect?
它是如何连接的？
When you are near to God, you are near to people also.
当你亲近神时，你也就亲近人了。
The people respect you more?
老百姓更尊重你了？
More than.
多于。
You think the religion gives you some wisdom?
你认为宗教给你一些智慧吗？
Yes.
是的。
Do you watch TV at all?
你看电视吗？
I do.
我愿意。
What do you watch?
你看什么？
Local things.
当地的东西。
Like movies, or news, or just everything?
喜欢电影、新闻，还是一切？
I’m not much of — movies, not so much.
我不太喜欢电影，不太喜欢。
What language do you watch in?
您用什么语言观看？
Kikuyu or English or?
基库尤语还是英语还是？
Any.
任何。
Any?
任何？
Yes.
是的。
Whatever’s on.
无论发生什么。
Yes.
是的。
Do you like foreign shows, or do you like Kenya shows?
你喜欢外国节目，还是喜欢肯尼亚节目？
Any.
任何。
The only thing is, if it’s interesting, I do watch.
唯一的事情是，如果有趣，我就会看。
What would make a show interesting for you?
是什么让一场演出对你来说变得有趣？
What should the topic be?
主题应该是什么？
If it’s mostly talking about how I — our way of living, that is.
如果它主要是在谈论我如何——我们的生活方式，那就是了。
I do like it very much because I do like getting more experience on how to stay with people.
我确实非常喜欢它，因为我确实喜欢获得更多关于如何与人相处的经验。
Your children, they live in Kenya?
你的孩子们住在肯尼亚吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes, they live in Kenya.
是的，他们住在肯尼亚。
How many do you have?
你有多少个？
Me, I have two.
我，我有两个。
Great.
伟大的。
What do they do?
他们做什么？
One is married.
一个已经结婚了。
Both of them are girls.
她们都是女孩。
One is married, the other one is in school.
一位已婚，另一位在上学。
They live near here?
他们住在这附近吗？
Yes.
是的。
That’s great.
那太棒了。
That one, I live with her at my place.
那个，我和她住在我家。
What do you think is the next thing you will try to do for your community?
您认为下一步您将尝试为您的社区做些什么？
Well, I would say I will just try to go ahead with giving them or showing them the way we should be living here.
好吧，我想说，我会尽力继续向他们提供或向他们展示我们应该在这里生活的方式。
Living in a peaceful way.
过着平静的生活。
If you compare the views you have now to the views you had as a young person, what have you changed your mind about in life?
如果您将现在的观点与年轻时的观点进行比较，您在生活中的想法发生了哪些变化？
I’ve changed my mind because now I know how to stay with people, good living.
我改变了主意，因为现在我知道如何与人相处，如何过上美好的生活。
You understand other people better?
你更了解别人吗？
Yes, more than.
是的，超过。
You see the importance of helping them cooperate.
您会看到帮助他们合作的重要性。
Yes.
是的。
Do you have any questions for me?
你有什么问题要问我吗？
Yes, I can ask you one.
是的，我可以问你一个。
Please.
请。
Do you stay here in Tatu City?
你住在塔图市吗？
Do you work in Tatu City, or you are just a visitor?
你在塔图市工作还是只是一个游客？
I am just a visitor.
我只是一个访客。
I’m an old friend of Stephen Jennings, and I’ve never been to Kenya before.
我是斯蒂芬·詹宁斯的老朋友，我以前从未去过肯尼亚。
This is my first time.
这是我第一次。
I wanted very much to come, and I knew Stephen here, so I thought I would see him, so I’m here for five to six days.
我非常想来，而且我认识斯蒂芬在这里，所以我想我会见到他，所以我在这里呆了五到六天。
My wife is coming, and then I go on safari with her.
我妻子来了，然后我和她一起去狩猎。
That’s my story here.
这就是我的故事。
That’s good.
那挺好的。
This Stephen Jennings is your good friend.
这位斯蒂芬·詹宁斯是你的好朋友。
He and I worked together over 30 years ago.
我和他 30 多年前就曾一起工作过。
Oh, that’s good.
哦，那很好。
I had not seen him in a long time either, because he was in many distant places, and I live in America, near Washington, D.C.
我也很久没见到他了，因为他在很多遥远的地方，而我住在美国，靠近华盛顿特区。
If at all he is your friend, just go and tell him to help our boys who are here, who are unemployed.
如果他真的是你的朋友，就去告诉他帮助我们这里失业的孩子们吧。
How do you think he should do that?
你认为他应该怎样做？
Well, as a community, he can look for a way, if you have employment here, you can just let us know, and we ship these boys of ours here.
嗯，作为一个社区，他可以想办法，如果你在这里有工作，你可以告诉我们，我们把我们这些男孩运送到这里。
You can also help us with educating some of these young boys who need help.
您还可以帮助我们教育一些需要帮助的小男孩。
What do you think the rest of the world should know about Kenya, that they don’t know?
您认为世界其他国家应该了解肯尼亚哪些他们不知道的事情？
Well, the only thing in Kenya — the only problem we do have in Kenya is only employment.
嗯，肯尼亚唯一的问题就是就业。
You want to see more foreign businesses come to create more jobs?
您希望看到更多外资企业前来创造更多就业机会吗？
Yes.
是的。
More Chinese investments.
更多中国投资。
Yes.
是的。
More Americans who work at Tatu City.
更多在塔图市工作的美国人。
If you could have more jobs, and you have more investors to come here and invest in us, when they’re coming to invest, we also benefit from the creation of jobs and whatever, because we have a lot of young people who are more educated, but they don’t have a living because they don’t have jobs here.
如果你能有更多的就业机会，并且有更多的投资者来这里投资我们，当他们来投资时，我们也会从创造就业机会等中受益，因为我们有很多受过更多教育的年轻人，但他们没有谋生，因为他们在这里没有工作。
Last question.
最后一个问题。
Are you optimistic about Kenya, and if so, why?
您对肯尼亚乐观吗？如果乐观，为什么？
Are you optimistic about Kenya?
您对肯尼亚持乐观态度吗？
You think the future will be better?
你认为未来会更好吗？
Yes.
是的。
Why?
为什么？
Because according to what I believe, as we are learning, we are learning how to shape our country in the best way possible.
因为根据我的信念，当我们正在学习时，我们正在学习如何以尽可能最好的方式塑造我们的国家。
Whether in hard times or good times, we have to face all the challenges, and we have to make our country better.
无论是困难时期还是顺境，我们都要面对一切挑战，我们都要让我们的国家变得更好。
We have also to invite your friends to come and help us also, in one way or another, because east or west, home is the best.
我们还必须邀请您的朋友也来帮助我们，以这样或那样的方式，因为无论东方还是西方，家都是最好的。
Githae Githinji, thank you very much.
吉萨·吉辛吉，非常感谢你。
Thank you, also.
也谢谢你。