Fuchsia Dunlop on Chinese Food, Culture, and Travel (Ep. 15)
If I think of how to present Fuchsia, there are two passages that spring immediately to mind.
如果我想到如何呈现紫红色，我会立即想到两段话。
One is from her 1999 notebook entry, and I quote, “In the last three days I have eaten snails, frogs, snakes, sparrow gizzard, duck tongues, fish heads, duck hearts, tripe.
其中一篇出自她1999年的笔记本，我引述道：“这三天我吃过田螺、青蛙、蛇、麻雀肫、鸭舌、鱼头、鸭心、牛肚。
“Also, half a duck, most of a carp, duck’s blood, at least five eggs, smoked bacon, and stewed aromatic beef.” Of course, we had Fuchsia do the ordering for our lunch, as you might expect.
“还有，半只鸭子，大部分鲤鱼，鸭血，至少五个鸡蛋，熏培根，炖香牛肉。”当然，正如您所料，我们让 Fuchsia 为我们点了午餐。
One of my readers wrote to me, they summed up who she is.
我的一位读者写信给我，他们总结了她是谁。
Again, I quote, “What a fantastic and exciting guest.
我再次引用：“多么出色和令人兴奋的客人。
I agree wholeheartedly that Fuchsia Dunlop is an absolute iconoclast, and that her achievements in examining and teaching Chinese cookery cannot possibly be overstated.
我完全同意 Fuchsia Dunlop 是一位绝对的反传统者，她在研究和教授中国烹饪方面的成就怎么强调也不为过。
“I can say with all sincerity that my life has been absolutely enriched by her work.
“我可以真诚地说，她的工作绝对丰富了我的生活。
Her books are simply perfect models for others to follow.” Fuchsia, welcome.
她的书简直就是其他人效仿的完美典范。”紫红色，欢迎。
Everyone else, welcome as well.
其他人也都欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
On food tours
美食之旅
Now, I’ll just start in on the questions while our guests eat, and they will later on become the questioners themselves.
现在，我会在客人吃饭时开始提问，然后他们自己就会成为提问者。
Let me start with this idea of a food tour.
让我从美食之旅的想法开始。
Food tours are more and more popular today.
如今，美食之旅越来越受欢迎。
People will go to Mexico, to France, Italy, even Thailand, but the China food tour is not always so popular with Americans or Westerners.
人们会去墨西哥、法国、意大利，甚至泰国，但中国美食之旅并不总是受到美国人或西方人的欢迎。
If you were to try to sell someone on a version of a 12-day China food tour, what would your case for that sound like?
如果您试图向某人推销 12 天的中国美食之旅，您的理由是什么？
China has the world’s preeminent cuisine, absolutely unparalleled in its diversity and its sophistication.
中国拥有世界一流的美食，其多样性和复杂性绝对是无与伦比的。
You can find practically everything you could possibly desire in terms of food in China.
在中国，你几乎可以找到所有你想要的食物。
From exquisite banquet cookery, exciting street food, bold spicy flavors, honest farmhouse cooking, delicate soups, just everything, apart perhaps from cheese, although they do actually have a couple of kinds of cheese in Yunnan province.
从精美的宴会烹饪、令人兴奋的街头小吃、大胆的辛辣口味、淳朴的农家菜、精致的汤品，应有尽有，也许除了奶酪之外，虽然云南确实有几种奶酪。
Also, because China is such a food-orientated culture, and it has been since the beginnings of history, that if you want to understand China, almost more than anywhere else, food is a really good window into the culture, into the way people live, into history, everything.
此外，因为中国是一种以食物为导向的文化，而且从历史开始，如果你想了解中国，几乎比其他任何地方都更了解，食物是了解文化、了解人们生活方式、了解历史以及一切的一个很好的窗口。
Twelve days, give us a quick itinerary.
十二天，给我们一个快速的行程。
Where should you go?
你应该去哪里？
You could look at the greatest hits, say, the four great cuisines you perhaps want to cover.
您可以查看最热门的美食，例如您可能想要介绍的四种美味佳肴。
You might go to Beijing to taste some imperial food, Shandong cooking, the wonderful wheat foods of the north.
你可以去北京尝尝宫廷菜、鲁菜、北方的麦菜。
Pastas, dumplings, breads, this is the wheat-eating part of China.
面食、饺子、面包，这是中国吃小麦的地方。
Three cities, name them.
三个城市，请说出它们的名字。
Three cities?
三个城市？
Twelve days, I’m not going to give you 14.
十二天，我不会给你十四天。
What are they?
它们是什么？
Three cities.
三个城市。
Beijing, Chengdu, and Hangzhou.
北京、成都、杭州。
Now let’s think through this idea of a food tour a little more analytically.
现在让我们更深入地思考一下美食之旅的想法。
Let’s say you’ve talked me into this food tour, which actually you’ve done indirectly through your books.
假设你说服我参加这次美食之旅，实际上你是通过你的书间接完成的。
You’ve sent me to Shanghai.
你派我去上海。
Your latest book, Land of Fish and Rice, in fact focuses on Shanghai and the surrounding region, which is quite diverse.
你的新书《鱼米之乡》实际上主要关注的是上海及其周边地区，这是相当多元化的。
Here am I, Tyler Cowen, I’m in Shanghai.
我在这里，泰勒·考恩，我在上海。
I don’t know Chinese and let’s say I don’t have Chinese friends.
我不懂中文，假设我没有中国朋友。
And I’m simply lost.
我简直迷路了。
How do I figure out where to actually eat in Shanghai?
我如何知道在上海哪里可以吃饭？
What do I do?
我该怎么办？
What’s the heuristic?
有什么启发？
You could look for recommendations of authentic restaurants, articles by people who perhaps live in Shanghai or who understand the food.
你可以寻找正宗餐厅的推荐、可能住在上海或了解食物的人写的文章。
Say I’m just on the street.
说我就在街上。
I’m walking.
我正在走路。
I don’t have my iPad.
我没有 iPad。
I’m away from WiFi.
我远离 WiFi。
There’s Shanghai, there’s me confronting the alien.
那里是上海，那里是我与外星人的对峙。
How do I think about finding what’s good?
我如何思考寻找好的东西？
Use your nose, use your eyes.
用你的鼻子，用你的眼睛。
If you’re interested in street food, you’ll find lots of little stalls and shops where they’re cooking in full view.
如果您对街头美食感兴趣，您会发现很多小摊位和商店，人们可以一览无遗地烹饪。
Use your judgment and see what looks exciting.
运用你的判断力，看看什么看起来令人兴奋。
It’s very difficult in a cosmopolitan city like Shanghai, to perhaps know exactly what is local Shanghainese, what is from other parts of China because it’s always been a melting pot of different Chinese regional cuisines.
在上海这样的国际大都市，要确切地知道什么是上海本地菜、什么是中国其他地方的菜是非常困难的，因为它一直是中国不同地方美食的大熔炉。
Also, if you want to taste the more refined cooking, then just going around the streets is not really going to help.
另外，如果你想尝尝更精致的烹饪，那么光是在街上逛是没有什么帮助的。
You do need to do a little bit of research and have a few dishes, perhaps have the names on your phone in Chinese.
你确实需要做一些研究，吃几道菜，也许你的手机上有中文名字。
That would help.
那会有帮助的。
Three dishes one absolutely has to try are what?
绝对要尝尝的三道菜是什么呢？
In Shanghai?
在上海？
In Shanghai.
在上海。
The city, not the region.
是城市，不是地区。
I think you should have hong shao rou, red braised pork.
我觉得你应该吃红烧肉。
Real home cooking.
真正的家常菜。
Delicious combination of soy sauce, rice wine, and sugar, and one of the favorite dishes.
酱油、米酒和糖的美味组合，是人们最喜欢的菜肴之一。
I would recommend some Shanghainese wontons in soup stuffed with shepherd’s purse, which is a wild variety of the brassicas, and pork, just to show you the lighter, gentler side of Shanghainese cooking.
我推荐一些上海馄饨汤，里面塞满了荠菜（一种野生的芸苔属植物）和猪肉，只是为了向您展示上海菜清淡、温和的一面。
Then, perhaps, if we’re talking Shanghai, you might one to have one of these dishes that says something about Shanghai as being a mixing pot of different cultures.
那么，也许，如果我们谈论的是上海，您可能会吃其中一道菜，这说明上海是不同文化的大杂烩。
There’s a very nice crab meat and potato and tomato soup served in some of my favorite Shanghainese restaurants.
我最喜欢的一些上海餐馆提供非常美味的蟹肉、土豆和番茄汤。
Which seems a little bit of a fusion with some European influences, the way they use potato and tomato in that soup with local seafood.
这似乎有点融合了一些欧洲的影响，他们在汤中使用土豆和番茄与当地海鲜。
As you know, the Michelin Guide recently has covered Shanghai, given some restaurants three, two, one star.
大家知道，《米其林指南》最近覆盖了上海，给了一些餐厅三星、二星、一星的评价。
There’s cheap places you can go.
有便宜的地方你可以去。
Conceptually, do they understand the food of Shanghai?
从概念上来说，他们了解上海的美食吗？
To the extent they don’t, what are they missing?
如果他们不这样做，那么他们错过了什么？
If you look at the restaurants they’ve selected, there’s a bit of a Cantonese bias.
如果你看看他们选择的餐厅，就会发现有一点粤菜的偏见。
They do have some Shanghainese restaurants, but one thing that’s very conspicuous, there are some notable, some of the best Shanghainese local restaurants, which are missing from that list, in my opinion.
他们确实有一些上海餐馆，但有一点非常引人注目，在我看来，有一些值得注意的、一些最好的上海当地餐馆，但在我看来，这些餐馆都没有出现在这个名单上。
The reason is, I think, the methodology of Western food inspectors, which is they tend to go as individuals or small groups.
我认为，原因在于西方食品检查员的方法，他们往往以个人或小组的形式进行。
Of course in many Chinese restaurants where you eat family style, to make the most of the restaurant, you have to eat as we’re doing now with a large group and a table full of dishes.
当然，在很多家庭式的中餐馆里，为了充分利用餐厅，你必须像我们现在这样一大群人、一桌菜一起吃饭。
These restaurants that I was surprised not to see on the list, you have to book a private room with a group.
这些我很惊讶没有在名单上看到的餐厅，你必须和一群人一起预订一个私人房间。
If you do, you’ll be able to taste some of the most wonderful renditions of Shanghainese food, and food from the broader region, with a contemporary spirit but a real reverence for traditional technique.
如果您这样做，您将能够品尝到一些最精彩的上海美食以及来自更广泛地区的美食，这些美食既具有现代精神，又对传统技术产生了真正的尊重。
You can’t do that really if you just go with one or two people.
如果你只和一两个人一起去，你真的无法做到这一点。
On elite bias towards Cantonese food
论精英阶层对粤菜的偏见
Let me ask you a bit about this Cantonese bias.
让我问你一些关于粤语偏见的问题。
I’ve even heard Chinese people say, “The food of Shanghai, it’s maybe a little too sweet, or some parts of it are too simple.” There’s a bit of a bias from some, not all, against the food of Shanghai.
我什至听中国人说，“上海的食物，可能有点太甜了，或者有些地方太简单了。”有些人（不是所有人）对上海的食物有一点偏见。
That the food in Canton is more glorious, has more vegetables, uses refined seafood in a more complex way, is delicate, harder to pull off, and therefore at a higher point of Chinese cuisine.
广东的菜品更加丰富，蔬菜较多，用精海鲜的方式更加复杂，细腻，难于下手，因此在中国菜中处于较高的水平。
Do you agree?
你同意？
Yes, no?
是的，不是？
What is that missing, if you don’t agree?
如果你不同意，那还缺少什么？
I think Cantonese is a superb and fantastic cuisine, but its particular status in China is a product of historical circumstances.
我认为粤菜是一道非常棒的菜，但它在中国的特殊地位是历史环境的产物。
The Cantonese south of China, Hong Kong, the special economic zones, were the first places to get rich after the reform and opening up, particularly, and so Cantonese became the prestige cuisine.
尤其是南方的粤菜、香港等经济特区，是改革开放后最先致富的地方，粤菜因此成为名菜。
When I was a student in Chengdu in the 1990s, if you wanted to go out for an expensive, fancy meal, you went to a Cantonese restaurant and ate expensive seafood.
20世纪90年代我在成都读书的时候，如果你想出去吃一顿昂贵的大餐，你就会去一家粤菜馆，吃昂贵的海鲜。
It still has that cachet and aura of sophistication.
它仍然具有那种成熟的威望和光环。
With Shanghainese food, Shanghai is, in Chinese gastronomic terms, a modern upstart city.
有了上海菜，上海，用中国的美食术语来说，就是一座现代化的新贵城市。
It’s better known for its street food and home cooking.
它以街头小吃和家常菜而闻名。
But it is the best-known part of an ancient region, which really has what you can argue is the Chinese classical cuisine, the food of the Jiangnan lower-Yangtze region.
但它是一个古老地区最著名的部分，真正可以说是中国古典美食，江南长江下游地区的美食。
This region is known historically for its extraordinary knife work, delicate flavors, extreme reverence for ingredients.
该地区历史上以其非凡的刀工、精致的风味和对食材的极度尊重而闻名。
Eating the right foods from the right places in the right seasons.
在正确的季节，从正确的地方吃正确的食物。
All the values that we associate with Cantonese food, and also with modern Chez Panisse, this modern foodie movement.
我们将所有价值观与粤菜联系在一起，也与现代 Chez Panisse 这个现代美食运动联系在一起。
They’re all there historically in China.
它们都在中国历史上存在过。
Perhaps for historical reasons, it’s been under-appreciated in the last century or so.
也许由于历史原因，它在上个世纪左右并未得到充分重视。
On the modernization of Chinese food
论中国饮食的现代化
I think you would agree, Shanghai is one of the wealthier, more modern parts of China.
我想你会同意，上海是中国最富裕、更现代化的地区之一。
As you see China developing, you see traditional markets to some extent, in some parts of China fading away.
当你看到中国在发展时，你会看到传统市场在某种程度上在中国的某些地区正在消失。
Supply chains become longer.
供应链变得更长。
Large companies play a bigger role.
大公司发挥着更大的作用。
The refrigerator plays a new role in the food supply chain, so things can sit around for longer.
冰箱在食品供应链中扮演着新的角色，因此食物可以保存更长时间。
Do you wonder that a lot of Chinese food will become bad in the way that American food has become bad?
你是否想知道很多中国食物会像美国食物一样变质？
And if that happens, will it come to Shanghai first or are you more optimistic than that?
如果发生的话，它会先来到上海还是你会比这更乐观？
You can see all these things happening, and it is very sad.
你可以看到所有这些事情正在发生，这是非常悲伤的。
For example, restaurants that I knew — this is in Chengdu — where they made all their dumplings from scratch, like maybe 15, 20 different kinds every day, now will buy some of them ready prepared.
比如我知道的餐馆 ——这是在成都 —— 他们的饺子都是白手起家的，每天大概15、20种，现在会买一些现成的。
Supermarkets stock easy-seasoning packets to make mapo tofu.
超市里备有制作麻婆豆腐的简易调味包。
This kind of thing.
这种事。
Then in the cities there’s a huge loss of cooking skills.
然后在城市里，烹饪技能大量流失。
Young professionals often rely on their parents to cook for the children at home.
年轻的专业人士经常依靠父母为家里的孩子做饭。
They, the middle generation, are not learning traditional cookery.
他们，中间一代，没有学习传统烹饪。
They’re not learning how to pickle and cure.
他们没有学习如何腌制和腌制。
There’s all this being lost.
这一切都失去了。
People, they lead more hectic lives and they are increasingly eating ready-prepared food.
人们过着更加忙碌的生活，越来越多地吃现成的食物。
You can see that China is going down the same sad path as the rest of us in some ways.
你可以看到，中国在某些方面正在走上与我们其他国家相同的悲伤道路。
But the thing that gives me hope is that in China food is understood so deeply as the foundation of health and happiness.
但让我充满希望的是，在中国，食物被深刻地理解为健康和幸福的基础。
It has been a culture that is so obsessed with food.
这是一种对食物如此痴迷的文化。
They have this wonderful resource that I hope people will — and some people are now getting to the point of looking at Chinese food as a cultural artifact and something valuable to be preserved.
他们拥有这种奇妙的资源，我希望人们能够这样做——而且有些人现在已经开始将中国菜视为一种文化艺术品和值得保存的有价值的东西。
But the thing that gives me hope is that in China food is understood so deeply as the foundation of health and happiness.
但让我充满希望的是，在中国，食物被深刻地理解为健康和幸福的基础。
It has been a culture that is so obsessed with food.
这是一种对食物如此痴迷的文化。
On why you should learn to love offal
为什么你应该学会爱内脏
Let me now see if you can talk me out of one of my biases.
现在让我看看你能否说服我改变我的偏见之一。
When I eat food in China there’s nothing I’ve ever been served that I found disgusting, ever, which is saying something.
当我在中国吃东西时，我从来没有发现任何令人恶心的东西，这说明了一些事情。
At the same time, it’s rare that I will prefer to eat organs, or offal, or the various stranger items you might be served.
与此同时，我很少会更喜欢吃内脏、内脏或你可能会吃到的各种奇怪的食物。
If I look around the world, those items seem to be what economists would call an inferior good.
如果我环顾世界，这些物品似乎被经济学家称为劣等品。
That is, in virtually all societies, when incomes go up, at some point people stop eating those things.
也就是说，几乎在所有社会中，当收入增加时，人们都会在某个时候停止吃这些东西。
My background is Irish.
我的背景是爱尔兰人。
In Ireland, in the early 20th century, it was very common to eat a lot of organs and offal.
在20世纪初的爱尔兰，吃大量内脏和内脏是很常见的事情。
Today, it’s hardly to be found.
今天，很难找到它了。
It’s revived somewhat, but as part of a regular diet, it’s dwindled.
它有所恢复，但作为常规饮食的一部分，它有所减少。
Are offal and organs actually just inferior goods and when people earn higher incomes, they don’t want it anymore, and they’re worse?
难道内脏、内脏其实只是劣等品，收入高了就不要了，就更差了？
Or are they parts of the Chinese culinary picture as good as anything else and they will persist even with rising income?
或者它们是否是中国烹饪界的一部分，与其他任何东西一样好，并且即使收入增加，它们也会持续存在？
I think it’s complicated.
我认为这很复杂。
In peasant farming societies, you have the nose-to-tail eating.
在农民社会里，人们吃的是从头到尾的食物。
You kill the pig and you eat every part of it, for economic reasons as much as anything.
你杀了猪，然后吃掉它的每一部分，出于经济原因。
Also, in China, the thing that really sets it apart is this preoccupation with the delights of gastronomy and the pursuit of the exotic.
此外，在中国，真正与众不同的是对美食乐趣的专注和对异国情调的追求。
“Fire-exploded kidney flowers” prepared using Fuchsia’s recipe.
使用Fuchsia的配方制作的“火爆肾花”。
Credit: Kake
信用：卡克
In particular, the appreciation of texture.
尤其是质感的欣赏。
A lot of offal foods have very interesting textures.
许多内脏食物的质地非常有趣。
Like these fire-exploded kidney flowers.
就像这些火爆的肾花。
They have that kind of slightly brisk crispness with the tenderness of a kidney that has been cut in this beautiful, ornate, crisscross pattern and then stir-fried very fast.
它们有一种略带轻快的脆度，带有腰子的柔嫩感，腰子被切成美丽、华丽的十字形图案，然后快速翻炒。
It’s a textural pleasure.
这是一种质感上的享受。
There are other things.
还有其他事情。
In Sichuan, people love eating goose intestines, which any Westerner would throw away.
在四川，人们喜欢吃鹅肠，但任何西方人都会扔掉。
If you’re a Western person it’s pointless.
如果你是西方人，那毫无意义。
They’re tasteless.
它们索然无味。
Why would you eat a goose intestine?
为什么要吃鹅肠？
From a Chinese textural point of view, they’re slippery, crisp, snappy.
从中国质地的角度来看，它们滑、脆、活泼。
They have a delightful kou gan or mouthfeel.
它们有一种令人愉快的口感。
The other thing is that some bits of what Westerners would consider to be old, awful, and rubbish, it’s a very different concept in China.
另一件事是，一些西方人认为是旧的、糟糕的、垃圾的东西，在中国是一个非常不同的概念。
For example, a duck’s tongue.
例如，鸭子的舌头。
From a Western point of view, there’s no meat on it.
从西方人的角度来看，上面没有肉。
It’s a small, fiddly thing that’s all bone and cartilage.
这是一个小而精巧的东西，全是骨头和软骨。
“What’s the point?” As my father would say, it has a high grapple factor for very little reward.
“有什么意义？”正如我父亲所说，它具有很高的抓斗系数，但回报很少。
In China, one of the ways of looking at this is that you’ve got a whole duck.
在中国，看待这个问题的一种方式是你有一整只鸭子。
The meat is very commonplace.
肉是很常见的。
Each duck has one tongue.
每只鸭子都有一个舌头。
It has very particular textures.
它有非常特殊的纹理。
If you’ve got the duck tongue, you’ve got the prize.
如果你有鸭舌，你就得到了奖品。
You’ve got the best bit.
你已经得到了最好的一点。
The small, precious morsel.
小而珍贵的一点。
In the past, before refrigeration, if you could afford to have a whole plateful of duck tongues, the number of ducks it represented, or a plateful of boned goose feet, a goose was a huge luxury.
在过去，没有冷藏的时候，如果你能吃得起一整盘鸭舌，它所代表的鸭子数量，或者一盘去骨鹅脚，一只鹅就是一种巨大的奢侈品。
If you have 12 goose feet from 6 geese on your plate, you have got the command —
如果你的盘子里有 6 只鹅的 12 鹅脚，你就得到了命令——
Of all these ingredients.
所有这些成分。
The appreciation of these delicacies exists — not only the poor farmers but at the highest tables as well.
对这些美味佳肴的欣赏是存在的——不仅是贫穷的农民，而且是在最高层的餐桌上。
Let’s say I want to learn how to enjoy sea cucumber, which believe it or not, I am not currently able to do, but I’m not against the idea.
假设我想学习如何享用海参，不管你信不信，我目前做不到，但我并不反对这个想法。
I would like to learn this.
我想学习这个。
What is your actual advice for me?
您对我的实际建议是什么？
Other than try it.
除了尝试一下。
I’ve tried it, I still don’t enjoy it.
我已经尝试过，但我仍然不喜欢它。
I don’t hate it.
我不讨厌它。
What do I do next?
接下来我该怎么办？
What you have to do is firstly, go to a good place so you feel good.
你要做的就是，首先，去一个好地方，让自己感觉良好。
It’s nice surroundings.
环境真不错。
You have to put it into your mouth and set aside all your mental prejudices, and just try to experience it in a sensory way.
你必须把它放进嘴里，抛开所有的心理偏见，只尝试用感官的方式去体验它。
Try to feel it.
尝试感受一下。
Try to feel that slightly slithery, gelatinous quality, that little crispness in the bite.
尝试感受一下那种略带滑滑的凝胶状质感，咬一口时有一点脆感。
It’s like what I like to think of is edible oxymoron, this softness and crispness.
就像我喜欢认为的可食用矛盾，这种柔软和酥脆。
Chinese love these sensory contradictions.
中国人喜欢这些感官上的矛盾。
Try to feel it.
尝试感受一下。
Try to feel that slightly slithery, gelatinous quality, that little crispness in the bite.
尝试感受一下那种略带滑滑的凝胶状质感，咬一口时有一点脆感。
It’s like what I like to think of is edible oxymoron, this softness and crispness.
就像我喜欢认为的可食用矛盾，这种柔软和酥脆。
Chinese love these sensory contradictions.
中国人喜欢这些感官上的矛盾。
What you have to do is just try to experience it and think about it.
你所要做的就是尝试去体验它并思考它。
Also think, in China where people really understand gastronomy, they really appreciate these things.
还想，在中国，人们真正了解美食，他们真的很欣赏这些东西。
Also, think to yourself, “If I can get my head around this.
另外，请对自己说：“如果我能解决这个问题就好了。
If I can start appreciating these textural foods, the pleasures of texture, then a door will open onto this other whole aspect of Chinese gastronomy, which is exciting.” It’ll broaden your pleasure in Chinese food.
如果我能开始欣赏这些有质感的食物，欣赏质感带来的乐趣，那么一扇通往中国美食的另一面的大门就会打开，这是令人兴奋的。”它会增加你对中国菜的兴趣。
On cookbooks
关于食谱
Let me ask you about cookbooks.
让我问你一些关于食谱的事情。
You’ve written a memoir, which is one of my favorite books, but mostly you’ve written cookbooks.
你写了一本回忆录，这是我最喜欢的书之一，但你主要写的是烹饪书。
You have a cookbook on Sichuan food, Hunan food, an all-purpose Chinese cookbook, the new Shanghai region book.
你有一本川菜菜谱、湘菜菜谱、一本万能的中国菜谱、新上海菜谱。
What strikes me about those cookbooks is how conceptually you frame everything you present.
这些烹饪书让我印象深刻的是你如何从概念上构建你所呈现的一切。
Coming at it as a social scientist, to me what you write makes perfect sense in a way that Mark Miller’s cookbooks do, but a lot of cookbooks don’t.
作为一名社会科学家，对我来说，你写的东西就像马克·米勒的烹饪书一样完全有意义，但很多烹饪书却没有。
They seem too particularistic to me.
他们对我来说似乎太特殊了。
If you were to tell us, cookbooks in China written by Chinese in Chinese, what are they like compared to Western cookbooks?
如果你告诉我们，中国人用中文写的中国烹饪书与西方烹饪书相比怎么样？
At a conceptual level, at an organizational level, what’s the main difference?
在概念层面、组织层面，主要区别是什么？
There’s less of a practice of using a cookbook to explore a region, or there has been until recently.
使用食谱来探索一个地区的做法较少，或者直到最近才有。
This thing of weaving together stories and cultural information with recipes.
将故事和文化信息与食谱编织在一起的事情。
It’s beginning to happen the last few years, particularly since A Bite of China, this smash-hit food TV series, which has captured people’s imaginations and led to a boom in food publishing.
这种现象在最近几年开始出现，尤其是自《舌尖上的中国》这部大受欢迎的美食电视剧以来，它激发了人们的想象力，并带动了美食出版的繁荣。
Until recently, Chinese cookbooks were more functional.
直到最近，中国的烹饪书才更加实用。
Less rigorous in recipe testing, so difficult to follow if you didn’t already have some idea about what you were trying to do.
配方测试不那么严格，如果您还不清楚自己想要做什么，那么很难遵循。
Advice saying, “A suitable amount of this seasoning.”
建议说：“这个调料适量。”
I think those are the main differences.
我认为这些是主要的区别。
On the success of Sichuan in the West
论四川在西部的成功
Let’s switch to Sichuan province, which is one of my two favorites, along with Hunan province.
让我们转到四川省，这是我最喜欢的两个省份之一，还有湖南省。
Why is it that so much of the good Chinese food that comes to the West, to Barshu in London, which you have worked for, for this restaurant here, so many of these successes in exporting Chinese food are Sichuan successes.
为什么这么多好的中国菜来到西方，到你工作过的伦敦巴舒，到这里的这家餐厅，这么多中国菜出口的成功，都是四川的成功。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
What is it about that cuisine?
那个菜有什么讲究？
Firstly, it’s thrillingly exciting and dramatic.
首先，它非常激动人心且充满戏剧性。
All that red color, festive, exciting flavors.
所有的红色、喜庆、令人兴奋的味道。
More importantly, because Sichuanese food, beyond the spicy stereotype, is about the artful mixing of flavors.
更重要的是，川菜超越了辛辣的刻板印象，而是巧妙地混合各种口味。
It’s about fu he wei — complex, layered flavors.
这是关于复杂的、层次丰富的味道。
In Sichuan, Sichuanese people would sum up the cuisine as saying yi cai yi ge, bai cai bai wei, which means “each dish has its own style; a hundred dishes have a hundred different flavors.” The heart and soul of Sichuanese cooking lies in flavor combinations.
在四川，川人将美食概括为“一菜一格、百菜百味”，意思是“菜各有风格，百菜有百味”。川菜的核心和灵魂在于风味组合。
For example, this is an example of a ma la dish, numbing and hot.
例如，这是麻辣烫的一个例子，又麻又热。
Dried chilies and Sichuan pepper.
干辣椒和花椒。
You can take that flavor combination and that’s the essence of the dish.
你可以采用这种风味组合，这就是这道菜的精髓。
It doesn’t really matter if the ingredient is, as it is here, chicken, or frog, or fish.
在这里，配料是鸡肉、青蛙还是鱼并不重要。
You’re preserving the spirit of that dish.
你正在保留那道菜的精神。
Also, because Sichuanese cooking is so much about flavor, if you have a few base seasonings, like the Sichuan chili bean paste, or doubanjiang chili Sichuan pepper, you can take them abroad and you can make a very effective and pretty authentic version of Sichuanese food with your basic canon of seasonings.
另外，因为川菜非常注重味道，所以如果你有一些基本的调味料，比如豆瓣酱，豆瓣酱，豆瓣酱，花椒，你可以把它们带到国外，用你的基本调味料标准就能做出非常有效且相当正宗的川菜。
Some cuisines are more difficult like that if you have very specific local ingredients.
如果你有非常特殊的当地食材，有些菜肴会更困难。
Also, because Sichuanese with the bold and exciting flavors, you can do a reasonable approximation of Sichuanese cooking without the most consummate cooking skills and it can still be fun and exciting.
又因为川菜的口味大胆刺激，即使没有最精湛的厨艺，也能做出合理的近似川菜的烹饪，同样可以充满乐趣和刺激。
Something like Cantonese, for example, is more difficult to do well.
例如，像粤语这样的东西就更难学好。
On Sichuan peppercorns (i.e. the good stuff)
关于四川花椒（即好东西）
Now, I’d like to have you teach us all a lesson about Sichuan peppercorns.
现在，我想请您给我们大家上一堂关于四川花椒的课。
Before I came here, I brought from my home my inferior Virginia suburban peppercorns, bought at a local Chinese market.
在我来这里之前，我从家里带来了劣质的弗吉尼亚郊区花椒，是在当地的中国市场买的。
You brought, from Sichuan province, your own version of Sichuan peppercorns.
你从四川省带来了你自己版本的四川花椒。
The good stuff.
好东西。
The good stuff.
好东西。
If you could try the two for us.
如果你能为我们尝试一下这两个。
You’re all welcome at the table to try along.
欢迎大家一起来尝试。
Can you pass that around and everyone have a sniff of the one you brought?
你能把它传给大家，让每个人都闻一闻你带来的吗？
These are what you call the inferior peppercorns.
这些就是你们所说的劣质花椒。
Then keep the lid on between.
然后盖上盖子。
Take the lid off, and put your nose in that box and have a good sniff.
把盖子打开，把鼻子伸进盒子里好好闻一闻。
Don’t taste it until instructed.
在指示之前不要品尝。
MEGAN MCARDLE: Should we take a few?
梅根·麦克卡德尔：我们应该带一些吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yours are better.
你的更好。
What I would suggest you do — let’s wait until everyone’s got some.
我建议你做什么 ——让我们等到每个人都有一些。
MARK MILLER: Takes me a while.
马克·米勒：需要一段时间。
How would you describe that difference and what accounts for it?
您如何描述这种差异以及造成这种差异的原因是什么？
The first thing is as soon as you open that pot you get this overwhelming, gorgeous, slightly citrusy fragrance, which is very distinctive, right?
第一件事是，一打开罐子，你就会闻到这种压倒性的、华丽的、略带柑橘味的香味，非常有特色，对吧？
That tells you it’s very fresh and lovely Sichuan pepper.
这说明这是非常新鲜可爱的四川辣椒。
Then if you take one of the ones I brought and put it in your mouth.
然后如果你把我带来的其中一个放进嘴里。
What I would suggest is chew it very juicily at the front of your mouth about three times and then take it out, because it’s a delayed reaction.
我的建议是在嘴里咀嚼大约三遍，然后取出，因为这是一种延迟反应。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Yeah?
是的？
Your tongue is beginning to sing, and dance, and tingle?
你的舌头开始唱歌、跳舞、刺痛吗？
Yes.
是的。
That is what they call in Chinese ma.
这就是中国人所说的“ma”。
It means tingling sensation, the same word for pins and needles, and anesthesia.
它的意思是刺痛感，与针刺和麻醉是同一个词。
If the Sichuan pepper is not that great you don’t get the tingle.
如果四川辣椒不是那么好，你就不会感到刺痛。
You get some aroma, but this is simply overwhelming.
你会闻到一些香气，但这简直令人无法抗拒。
That’s why I said just put one in your mouth and take it out after a few seconds because if you put a handful in and you keep chewing it, it will be overwhelming.
这就是为什么我说只要把一颗放进嘴里，几秒钟后再拿出来，因为如果你一把放进去，然后一直咀嚼，那就会难以承受。
COWEN: In terms of the history of my Sichuan peppercorns and the history of yours, these at least pretend they’re from China.
COWEN：就我的四川花椒的历史和你的历史而言，这些至少假装它们来自中国。
Correct?
正确的？
Is it that they’re from the wrong place, or they’ve been sitting around too long, or you know the best source?
是他们来自错误的地方，还是他们呆得太久了，或者你知道最好的来源？
What’s the underlying difference behind the difference?
差异背后的根本差异是什么？
In Sichuan they would say that the best Sichuan pepper comes from a particular region, Hanyuan, in the west of Sichuan.
在四川，人们说最好的花椒来自川西的汉源地区。
There’s a real, as I said, a concern with provenance of things.
正如我所说，人们确实关心事物的起源。
I think there are different varieties, which will be more fruity and less fruity.
我觉得有不同的品种，会有果味多一点的，也会有果味少一点的。
The other thing is, I think most of the Sichuan pepper that is exported has been exported and handled by Cantonese people.
另一件事是，我认为大部分出口的四川辣椒都是由广东人出口和处理的。
In parts of China apart from Sichuan, Sichuan pepper is used differently.
在中国除四川以外的地区，花椒的使用方式有所不同。
It’s used in spice combinations.
它用于香料组合。
It’s used to take away the fishiness of meat and poultry ingredients.
它用于去除肉类和家禽原料的腥味。
That’s a Chinese culinary concept.
这是中国的烹饪理念。
But it’s not used for this tingling ma sensation.
但它不用于这种刺痛感。
Unless you’re Sichuanese, you’re not going to be seeking out the really zingy Sichuan pepper.
除非你是四川人，否则你不会去寻找真正辛辣的四川辣椒。
That’s the problem, really, that you would need Sichuanese exporters taking command —
这确实是一个问题，你需要四川出口商来指挥——
And making sure we all get the tingly Sichuan pepper.
并确保我们都吃到麻辣的四川辣椒。
On what unifies the fantastic diversity in Chinese cooking
是什么将中国烹饪的奇妙多样性统一起来
Let me ask you a deep philosophical question here, just for some background.
让我在这里问你一个深刻的哲学问题，只是为了一些背景知识。
Someone once asked you, “What are your favorite parts of Chinese food?” You gave a long answer, too long for me to repeat.
曾经有人问你：“你最喜欢中国菜的哪一部分？”你给出了一个很长的答案，太长了，我无法重复。
And a lot of it I can’t pronounce anyway.
而且很多我无论如何都不会发音。
You listed seven or eight different regions that all seemed quite different.
您列出了七八个不同的地区，这些地区看起来都很不同。
These Sichuan peppercorns and ma la is not in general done in Shanghai, as you well know.
正如你所知，这些四川花椒和麻辣一般不是在上海做的。
What is the underlying unity that makes all of this Chinese food — because you instinctively believe in that concept — but what is that unity, given the fantastic diversity?
构成所有这些中国食物的根本统一性是什么 ——“因为你本能地相信这个概念”—— 但考虑到奇妙的多样性，这种统一性是什么？
There are some things you can pull out.
有些东西你可以拿出来。
The use of chopsticks and its implications for the form of food, which is that you have food that’s generally cut into small pieces or it’s tender enough to pull apart with chopsticks.
筷子的使用及其对食物形式的影响，即食物通常被切成小块，或者足够软，可以用筷子分开。
That’s one thing that Western observers through the centuries have remarked on about Chinese food, is having these — for the early Western observers it was rather disturbing.
这是西方观察家几个世纪以来对中国食物的评论之一，就是吃这些——对于早期的西方观察家来说，这是相当令人不安的。
You’d have a dish with everything cut fine and you didn’t know what it was.
你会吃到一道菜，所有的东西都切得很好，但你不知道那是什么。
Maybe it was something really outlandish.
也许这真的很奇怪。
The art of cutting and the cutting of food into small pieces, the eating of shared dishes with a staple grain — rice in the south, wheat in the north — that’s the structure of a meal.
切菜的艺术，把食物切成小块，和主粮一起吃——南方是大米，北方是小麦——这就是一顿饭的结构。
You can also pull out some very important seasonings, soy sauce, and other fermented soy pastes.
还可以拿出一些非常重要的调味料，酱油，还有其他发酵的酱油。
The use of vinegar and soy sauce in combination.
醋和酱油混合使用。
Ginger, scallion, and garlic in various combinations.
姜、葱、蒜的各种组合。
You can look at seasonings.
你可以看看调味料。
Also, cooking methods, and I know stir frying is the most famous.
还有烹饪方法，我知道炒是最有名的。
Relatively recent, historically.
相对较新的、历史上的。
Steaming, also, is a really important core Chinese cooking method, so looking at a combination of techniques.
蒸也是一种非常重要的中式烹饪核心方法，因此需要考虑多种技术的组合。
When you talk about Chinese cuisine, you always have to take it with a pinch of salt and remember, as I always do, that Chinese people talk about something called xi can, “Western food,” and make outrageous generalizations about it too.
当你谈论中国美食时，你总是要半信半疑，并记住，就像我一直做的那样，中国人谈论一种叫做“西餐”的东西，并对它做出令人震惊的概括。
Of course, from a Chinese point of view it makes sense to talk about Western food as being different from Chinese, but from a Western point of view you see all the distinctions.
当然，从中国人的角度来看，说西餐与中餐不同是有道理的，但从西方的角度来看，你会看到所有的区别。
On how Chinese chefs react to haute cuisine
中国厨师对高级菜肴的反应
In one of your books you tell a story of taking some number of very renowned Sichuan chefs and you bring them in the United States to a restaurant called The French Laundry, one of the best and most famous American restaurants.
在您的一本书中，您讲述了一个故事，您将一些非常著名的四川厨师带到美国，来到一家名为 The French Laundry 的餐厅，这是美国最好、最著名的餐厅之一。
Cooking at a very high level.
烹饪水平非常高。
How did they react to that?
他们对此有何反应？
Oh, total culture shock.
哦，彻底的文化冲击。
You see, I was delighted.
你看，我很高兴。
I was so excited.
我很兴奋。
I’d taken these wonderful chefs, all of them extremely accomplished practitioners of Sichuanese cuisine, and here I was.
我带了这些出色的厨师，他们都是非常有成就的川菜从业者，而我就在这里。
I got a table at the best restaurant, held to be the best restaurant in North America, with some of the finest the West had to offer.
我在最好的餐厅订了一张桌子，这家餐厅被认为是北美最好的餐厅，提供一些西方最好的餐厅。
There were all kinds of things that they found very difficult.
他们发现各种各样的事情都非常困难。
The first was our reservation was at 9:30.
第一个是我们的预订时间是 9:30。
Chinese people like to eat at 6:00 or 6:30, so they were already in a bit of a bad mood by the time we started.
中国人喜欢在6:00或6:30吃饭，所以我们开始的时候他们的心情已经有点不好了。
As I would be.
就像我一样。
Then it was a four-hour tasting menu.
然后是四小时的品尝菜单。
Chinese meals, even very good ones, tend to be rather fast by this standard.
按照这个标准，中餐，即使是非常好的中餐，往往也相当快。
For them, it was a long, tedious, late-night thing to sit and have dish after dish of complicated food.
对于他们来说，在深夜坐下来吃一盘又一盘复杂的食物是一件漫长而乏味的事情。
They weren’t used to eating dairy products, so anything creamy, not particularly nice.
他们不习惯吃乳制品，所以任何奶油味的东西都不是特别好吃。
They were really disturbed.
他们真的很不安。
One of them actually refused to eat the most beautiful lamb, because it was a little pink and bloody in the middle.
其中一个居然拒绝吃最漂亮的羊肉，因为它有点粉红色，中间还带着血。
Of course, in China traditionally only barbarians eat raw meat and you just don’t eat raw meat.
当然，在中国传统上只有野蛮人才吃生肉，而你就是不吃生肉。
They thought the olives tasted like Chinese medicine.
他们认为橄榄尝起来像中药。
In China a meal should always leave you feeling very refreshed and relaxed, and that’s why you finish in many regions with a light, refreshing palate-cleansing soup or with fresh fruit.
在中国，一顿饭总是应该让你感觉非常清爽和放松，这就是为什么在许多地区你会以清淡、清爽的净化味蕾的汤或新鲜的水果来结束。
At the French Laundry, we ended, like at many classic Western tasting menus, with a whole sequence of very heavy, sweet dishes, which was not very comfortable for them.
在法国洗衣店，我们以许多经典的西式品尝菜单结束，以一系列非常重的甜菜结束，这对他们来说不太舒服。
Also known as dessert.
也称为甜点。
DUNLOP: As dessert.
邓洛普：作为甜点。
The most interesting thing was Yu Bo, one of the chefs who’s now very famous — one of the best chefs I’ve ever met in China, the most accomplished — he was sitting in front of this beautiful plate of food.
最有趣的是余波，他是现在非常有名的厨师之一——我在中国见过的最好的厨师之一，最有成就的厨师——他就坐在这盘漂亮的食物前面。
He said, “Fuchsia, this is all very interesting, but I really cannot say whether it’s good or bad.”
他说：“Fuchsia，这一切都很有趣，但我真的不能说它是好是坏。”
On how to get the best of Chinese food in America
如何在美国吃到最好的中餐
Now let’s go from the sublime to the ridiculous.
现在让我们从崇高到荒谬。
I’m not sure how much time you’ve spent in the United States.
我不知道你在美国呆了多少时间。
Probably a lot of it is in places like New York, Los Angeles, where you can find quite good, but not perfect, Chinese food.
可能很多都是在纽约、洛杉矶这样的地方，在那里你可以找到相当不错但并不完美的中餐。
This place here, Panda Gourmet, is very good.
这里的熊猫美食店非常好。
Two-thirds of the items on the table are excellent.
桌子上三分之二的东西都很棒。
The others are all at least good.
其他的至少都还不错。
The cold noodles, my favorite.
冷面，我的最爱。
Say you’re in middle America somewhere.
假设你在美国中部的某个地方。
There’s a restaurant that calls itself Chinese but it’s cooking only for Americans.
有一家餐厅自称是中餐，但只为美国人做菜。
Most or all of what’s there would be unrecognizable to actual Chinese people, and Eva has told me a story along these lines.
那里的大部分或全部内容对于真正的中国人来说是无法识别的，伊娃给我讲了一个这样的故事。
You’re to go into that restaurant and try to get the best meal possible.
你要走进那家餐厅，尽量吃到最好的饭菜。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
What should we do?
我们应该做什么？
We’re stuck.
我们被困住了。
You’re not in New York.
你不在纽约。
Do you speak Chinese?
你会说中文吗？
No.
不。
Then you are a bit stuck.
那你就有点卡住了。
You need to communicate that you do not want to eat General Tso’s chicken and beef with broccoli and those dishes.
你需要表达你不想吃左宗棠鸡和牛肉配西兰花和那些菜肴。
That you really want to eat the food that they’re going to have for dinner tonight themselves.
你真的很想吃他们今晚要吃的食物。
You should bear in mind that, for example, in China — when I take people eating in China — I order in fluent Mandarin, well-informed ordering of a meal.
你应该记住，比如在中国 —— 当我带人们在中国吃饭时 —— 我用流利的普通话点餐，消息灵通的点餐。
I’m often told, “Oh, no, no, no, no. You mustn’t order that.
我经常被告知，“哦，不，不，不，不。你不能点那个。
Your guests won’t eat it.”
你的客人不会吃的。”
DUNLOP: And I have to really insist quite forcefully that yes, we do want to eat the tripe or whatever it is.
邓洛普：我必须非常坚决地坚持，是的，我们确实想吃牛肚或其他什么东西。
You do face this barrier.
你确实面临这个障碍。
It’s not that they don’t want to give you — they’re not trying to keep them.
并不是他们不想给你——他们并不想留住它们。
It’s just that they’re worried that you might not like them.
只是他们担心你不喜欢他们。
Many Chinese waiters and restaurateurs that I know in London have had the experience of Westerners ordering food and then complaining that there are bones in it or that it’s fatty meat, all of which are good things in China, and then complaining and making a scene.
我在伦敦认识的很多中国服务员和餐馆老板都有这样的经历：西方人点菜后抱怨里面有骨头，或者是肥肉，这些在中国都是好东西，然后抱怨、大吵大闹。
I think people are just — it’s easier.
我认为人们只是 —— 更容易。
They often have language issues, so they want to give you something they know you’ll like.
他们经常有语言问题，所以他们想给你一些他们知道你会喜欢的东西。
Tips for shopping for Chinese ingredients.
购买中国食材的技巧。
In the West, let’s say this is either London or the United States.
在西方，假设这是伦敦或美国。
If I ask myself, “What are the core ingredients I would pick?” I’d pick four things.
如果我问自己，“我会选择哪些核心成分？”我会选择四件事。
Ginger in storable form, a Sichuan sauce, green onions, and Sichuan peppercorns.
可储存的生姜、四川酱、葱和四川花椒。
Just my personal preference, but those are my four.
这只是我个人的喜好，但这是我的四个。
You’re allowed four things as advice — not for yourself because you’re cooking at a much higher level — but to recommend to people such as ourselves for cooking, eating, enjoying Chinese food.
你可以提出四件事作为建议 ——不是为了你自己，因为你的烹饪水平要高得多—— 而是为了向像我们这样的人推荐烹饪、饮食、享受中国菜。
What are your four or five picks that you can get in the West?
你在西部能得到的四五个选秀权是什么？
I would get a Chinese brown rice vinegar, probably jinjiang vinegar.
我会买中国糙米醋，可能是晋江醋。
A really good soy sauce, which means traditionally fermented, and that would be a light soy sauce if it’s a question of light or dark.
一种非常好的酱油，这意味着传统发酵的酱油，如果是淡酱油还是老酱油，那就是淡酱油。
I would get a pure toasted sesame oil.
我会得到纯烤芝麻油。
I would get some Sichuanese fermented chili and fava bean paste, doubanjiang.
我会买一些四川辣椒和蚕豆酱、豆瓣酱。
I’m assuming that ginger, garlic, and scallions, they would have anyway.
我猜想无论如何他们都会有生姜、大蒜和葱。
I was assuming soy sauce one would have.
我以为有人会吃酱油。
Those would be added to your list.
这些将被添加到您的列表中。
Yeah.
是的。
Maybe Sichuan pepper as well.
也许还有四川辣椒。
With those items and a number of others, one can cook most of what’s in your cookbooks, correct?
有了这些东西和其他一些东西，人们就可以烹饪你食谱中的大部分食物，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
You just need to make one trip to Chinatown, stock up on a few basics, and then you’re really away.
您只需要去唐人街一趟，储备一些基本物品，然后就可以真正出发了。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Now, in all of the Conversations with Tyler, in the middle we have a section known as Underrated versus Overrated.
现在，在与泰勒的所有对话中，中间有一个部分被称为“低估与高估”。
I name something and you tell me whether you think it’s underrated or overrated.
我说出一些东西，你告诉我你是否认为它被低估了还是高估了。
You’re free to pass in any case if you so feel like it.
如果您愿意，无论如何您都可以通过。
Bee larvae, to eat.
蜜蜂幼虫，可以吃。
Underrated.
被低估了。
Why?
为什么？
Because they are delicate and delicious.
因为它们细腻可口。
They have a lovely, crisp, light texture and a very subtle, savory flavor.
它们具有可爱、清脆、轻盈的质地和非常微妙的咸味。
Also, it’s just a lovely idea, eating insects.
而且，吃昆虫也是一个好主意。
Eating, it’s almost like, fairy tale food.
吃，几乎就像童话故事里的食物。
Can you farm it yourself or not so easily?
您可以自己种植吗？还是不那么容易？
I haven’t tried.
我没试过。
Haven’t tried.
没试过。
Milk, underrated or overrated.
牛奶，被低估或高估。
Overrated.
被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
That’s the one thing I don’t like.
这是我不喜欢的一件事。
I love cheese and butter, but I don’t ever drink milk.
我喜欢奶酪和黄油，但我从不喝牛奶。
You just don’t think it tastes good?
你就是觉得不好吃？
I haven’t tasted it for years.
我已经好几年没尝过了。
COWEN: I know there’s a long list here, but the most underrated Chinese regional cuisine if you had to pick?
COWEN：我知道这里有一个很长的名单，但如果你必须选择的话，最被低估的中国地方菜是什么？
Not the best, the most underrated.
不是最好的，而是最被低估的。
The cuisine of the region that I’ve written about, Jiangnan.
我写过的江南地区的美食。
You can argue it’s the classical Chinese cuisine, but people in the West don’t really know anything about it.
你可以说这是中国古典美食，但西方人对此一无所知。
Tell us just a little more how it’s not only Shanghai.
请告诉我们更多一点，这不仅仅是上海。
Expand on that just a bit.
稍微扩展一下。
Shanghai is a modern, upstart city.
上海是一座现代化的新兴城市。
This region has been prosperous and culturally, vitally important for hundreds and hundreds of years.
数百年来，这个地区一直繁荣昌盛，文化极其重要。
You’ve got great cultural centers like Hangzhou, Shaoxing, which have been written about by poets.
有像杭州、绍兴这样伟大的文化中心，诗人曾描写过它们。
Emperors fell in love with them over the centuries.
几个世纪以来，皇帝们都对它们爱不释手。
It’s been a center of Chinese culture and also gastronomic culture.
它是中国文化和美食文化的中心。
It just has incredible, thoughtful cooking, writing about food, beautiful ingredients.
它有令人难以置信的、深思熟虑的烹饪、关于食物的文章、美丽的食材。
That’s both fresh ingredients and cured things like Shaoxing wine, Jinhua ham, one of the great hams of the world.
其中既有新鲜食材，也有腌制食品，例如绍兴酒、金华火腿（世界上最美味的火腿之一）。
Here’s a question one of my readers wrote in to me.
这是我的一位读者写给我的一个问题。
He or she asked, “What about the luxury ingredients in Chinese cuisine?
他或她问道：“中国菜中的奢侈食材呢？
Meaning shark’s fin, bird’s nest, cordyceps.” (It’s a kind of fungus.) The person’s view was they’re all overrated.
意思是鱼翅、燕窝、虫草。” （这是一种真菌。）这个人的观点是他们都被高估了。
That when you try them, at least with a Western palate, they don’t seem that amazing.
当你尝试它们时，至少以西方人的口味来说，它们似乎并没有那么令人惊奇。
I’ve had that reaction to shark’s fin myself.
我自己也对鱼翅有过这种反应。
Maybe I’ve never had it at the right place.
也许我从来没有把它放在正确的地方。
But what I’ve enjoyed most in Chinese food has never been the luxury ingredients.
但我最喜欢的中餐从来都不是奢华的食材。
It’s been, say, home cooking in Sichuan province, or Yunnan, or maybe Shanghai.
比如说，四川省、云南省或者上海的家常菜。
The luxury ingredients in Chinese cuisine, underrated or overrated?
中餐中的奢华食材，是被低估还是被高估了？
Overrated.
被高估了。
You agree with that reader?
你同意这位读者的观点吗？
Yes.
是的。
I mean, from a Western point of view, of course, they’re overrated because something like shark’s fin is tasteless anyway.
我的意思是，从西方的角度来看，它们当然被高估了，因为像鱼翅这样的东西无论如何都是无味的。
You have to appreciate texture.
你必须欣赏质感。
You also have to appreciate the history and cultural context to enjoy these things.
您还必须欣赏历史和文化背景才能享受这些东西。
But as the great 18th-century gourmet and food writer, Yuan Mei, wrote, there are many common foods which, if cooked properly, like tofu, are far more satisfying than a really expensive bowl of sea cucumber.
但正如 18 世纪伟大的美食家和美食作家袁枚所写的那样，有很多常见的食物，如果烹饪得当，比如豆腐，比一碗非常昂贵的海参更令人满意。
The singer Leonard Cohen, underrated or overrated?
歌手莱昂纳德·科恩，被低估还是被高估了？
Underrated!
被低估了！
Tell us.
告诉我们。
He’s my favorite singer.
他是我最喜欢的歌手。
Extraordinary master of songwriting.
非凡的歌曲创作大师。
What’s your favorite Tom Lehrer song?
你最喜欢汤姆·莱勒的哪首歌？
“The Masochism Tango.”
“受虐狂探戈。”
OK.
好的。
We were talking about books before the session started and what you’d read recently.
我们在会议开始前讨论了书籍以及您最近读过的内容。
You mentioned a book by Ben Judah called, This is London, which you, at least, implied was underrated.
你提到了本·犹大（Ben Judah）写的一本名为《这就是伦敦》的书，你至少暗示这本书被低估了。
What’s special about that book?
那本书有什么特别之处？
It’s a sort of contemporary version of George Orwell’s Down and Out in Paris and London.
这是乔治·奥威尔的《巴黎和伦敦的落魄》的当代版本。
This young British journalist decided to look at the lives of recent immigrants to London.
这位年轻的英国记者决定了解最近移民到伦敦的生活。
He did things like sleeping rough with Romanian vagrants at Hyde Park corner.
他做过一些事情，比如在海德公园角落与罗马尼亚流浪者露宿。
He pretended to be an, I think, Eastern European builder and shared beds and dosshouses with people working there.
我认为他假装是一名东欧建筑商，并与在那里工作的人共用床铺和宿舍。
He talked to extremely rich Arabs who’d come to London for the summer.
他与来伦敦过暑假的极其富有的阿拉伯人进行了交谈。
He just produces this vivid, unflinching, sometimes moving, sometimes shocking portrait of the city that I live in and that many Londoners don’t really know exist.
他只是为我所居住的这座城市描绘了一幅生动、坚定、有时令人感动、有时令人震惊的肖像，而许多伦敦人并不真正知道它的存在。
It’s just an absolutely, shatteringly, interesting read.
这绝对是一本绝对、令人震惊、有趣的读物。
Here’s a question one of your readers wrote to me by email.
这是您的一位读者通过电子邮件写给我的一个问题。
Maybe it’s a bit intangible, but I’ve had the same wonder.
也许这有点无形，但我也有同样的疑问。
Given how much you love China, love Chinese food, work on projects that require your immersion in the food culture of China, just being away from China for as long as you sometimes are, how do you manage that intellectually, emotionally, otherwise, that sense of otherness?
鉴于你有多热爱中国，热爱中国菜，从事的项目需要你沉浸在中国的饮食文化中，只是有时远离中国很长时间，你如何在智力上、情感上或其他方面管理这种差异感？
I mean, do you have that antsiness when you’re in London or Topeka, Kansas, and it’s like, “My goodness.
我的意思是，当你在伦敦或堪萨斯州托皮卡时，你是否会感到不安，就像“天哪。
I need to be in China now”?
我现在需要在中国”？
How is that?
怎么样？
I would say that the two sides of my life are much more closely related.
我想说我生活的两个方面的联系更为密切。
I do go to China very frequently now.
我现在确实经常去中国。
I cook a lot of Chinese at home.
我在家做了很多中国菜。
My Chinese friends sometimes say that my London home is more Chinese than theirs because it’s so full of things from China.
我的中国朋友有时会说我伦敦的家比他们的家更中国，因为那里充满了来自中国的东西。
Also, when I first came back from studying in China, I never heard Mandarin in Britain.
而且，当我刚从中国留学回来时，我在英国从未听过普通话。
It was too expensive to call friends in China.
给中国朋友打电话太贵了。
This was just before email.
这是在电子邮件之前。
Now, I’m constantly chatting with chefs on social media.
现在，我经常在社交媒体上与厨师聊天。
I can ask them questions about a dish that I’m making.
我可以向他们询问有关我正在做的菜的问题。
My Chinese friends sometimes come here.
我的中国朋友有时也会来这里。
Chinatown in London and Chinatowns generally have more and more Chinese food and Chinese restaurants.
伦敦的唐人街和唐人街一般都有越来越多的中餐和中餐馆。
I would say there’s much greater integration of China in the West, and my personal Chinese life in my Western Chinese life, which I also like very much.
我想说，中国与西方的融合程度更高，我个人的中国生活也融入了我的西方中国生活，这也是我非常喜欢的。
I’m constantly chatting with chefs on social media.
我经常在社交媒体上与厨师聊天。
I can ask them questions about a dish that I’m making.
我可以向他们询问有关我正在做的菜的问题。
My Chinese friends sometimes come here.
我的中国朋友有时也会来这里。
Chinatown in London and Chinatowns generally have more and more Chinese food and Chinese restaurants.
伦敦的唐人街和唐人街一般都有越来越多的中餐和中餐馆。
I would say there’s much greater integration of China in the West, and my personal Chinese life in my Western Chinese life, which I also like very much.
我想说，中国与西方的融合程度更高，我个人的中国生活也融入了我的西方中国生活，这也是我非常喜欢的。
You’ve written favorably about the 18th-century Chinese novel, Dream of the Red Chamber.
您对 18 世纪中国小说《红楼梦》的评价很高。
Most Americans haven’t read that.
大多数美国人还没有读过这篇文章。
Tell us why it’s important.
告诉我们为什么它很重要。
It’s like a whole world into Chinese culture of the Qing Dynasty.
仿佛进入了清朝中国文化的整个世界。
It’s the story of two grand families and their rising and falling fortunes over a number of years.
这是两个大家族及其多年来财富起起落落的故事。
It’s got amazing characters.
它有令人惊奇的角色。
It’s like a soap opera of Chinese characters.
这就像一部中国肥皂剧。
You will learn about Chinese rituals, about Chinese food, about cultural preoccupations.
您将了解中国的仪式、中国的食物和文化关注点。
It’s just totally captivating.
这真是太迷人了。
The English translation I read it in, the Penguin version, is five volumes.
我读到的英文译本是企鹅版，共五卷。
It’s about this big.
大约有这么大。
It just took over my life for five months because I just wanted to see what happened to these people.
它占据了我的生活五个月，因为我只是想看看这些人发生了什么事。
The plot is hard to follow.
情节很难理解。
There’s many characters.
有很多角色。
The names are not familiar to a Western audience.
这些名字对于西方观众来说并不熟悉。
What’s the way to make it easy enough to read so that one actually can read it?
有什么方法可以使它足够容易阅读，以便人们真正可以阅读它？
Firstly, read the Penguin translation, which is the title The Story of the Stone by David Hawkes and John Minford, which is absolutely inspired and lively.
首先看企鹅翻译，这是大卫·霍克斯和约翰·明福德的书名《石头的故事》，绝对是充满灵感和生动的。
It really does bring it to life.
它确实让它变得栩栩如生。
You do need a little bit of patience with the Chinese names.
对于中文名字，你确实需要一点耐心。
But in this book — both of them because they did some volumes each — they translate some of the names.
但在这本书中——“他们俩都做了一些卷”——他们翻译了一些名字。
Like there’s a serving girl who is called Aroma.
就像有一个叫阿罗玛的女仆。
That’s the translation.
这就是翻译。
Whereas some of them are known, like Lin Daiyu, by the Chinese name which is a bit harder to remember.
而有些人，比如林黛玉，中文名字就比较难记了。
You might find it heavy going at first if you’re not really into China, but once you’ve got into it, it’s so human, and moving, and gripping, and just culturally fascinating that you’ll want to finish it.
如果你不是真正喜欢中国，一开始你可能会觉得它很沉重，但一旦你进入了它，它是如此人性化、感人、扣人心弦，而且文化上令人着迷，你会想把它看完。
As you probably know, in Japan, there are some of the finest French and Italian restaurants in the world.
您可能知道，在日本，有一些世界上最好的法国和意大利餐厅。
Mark could attest to that.
马克可以证明这一点。
What’s the best Western cuisine you can find inside of China?
在中国能找到的最好的西餐是什么？
I’m not the best person to ask because I’m always eating Chinese food in China, really.
我不是这个问题的最佳人选，因为我一直在中国吃中餐，真的。
How about the best other Asian cuisine inside of China?
中国境内最好的其他亚洲美食怎么样？
Do you have any sense of that?
你有这样的感觉吗？
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
I really do, quite seriously, try mainly to eat local when I’m in China.
当我在中国时，我真的很认真地主要尝试吃当地的食物。
To go back to where we started before we moved to the questions.
回到我们开始讨论问题之前的地方。
This idea of the food tour.
这个美食之旅的想法。
You’re given 12 days to organize the food tour, to begin with.
首先，您有 12 天的时间来组织美食之旅。
Now, let’s say a person has three weeks or four weeks, and they want to do even more in China.
现在，假设一个人有三个星期或四个星期的时间，他们想在中国做更多的事情。
They get to learn some basics.
他们开始学习一些基础知识。
What’s the further advice you would give them for how to make this experience of a lifetime?
对于如何获得一生难忘的体验，您会给他们什么进一步的建议？
How do you do a food tour in China when you have a little more time and resources?
当你有更多的时间和资源时，你如何在中国进行美食之旅？
The first thing I would say is go to a market, see what produce people are using.
我要说的第一件事是去市场，看看人们正在使用什么产品。
The markets are getting harder to find in the big cities, but seek one out.
大城市的市场越来越难找到，但还是要寻找一个。
The chances are you’ll see not only the very interesting produce, but you’ll also find snack stalls around the market, which will also be interesting.
您不仅会看到非常有趣的农产品，而且还会在市场周围找到小吃摊，这也很有趣。
Another piece of advice is to go to very popular, flourishing restaurants with lots of people in them, obviously, and look at what other people are eating.
另一个建议是去非常受欢迎、生意兴隆、里面有很多人的餐馆，看看其他人在吃什么。
Chinese menus are often not translated.
中文菜单通常没有翻译。
Even if they are translated, the translation is often very poor.
即使翻译了，翻译的效果也常常很差。
Some menus now have pictures, but I think it’s a really good thing to go and look at what other people are eating and then ask.
有些菜单现在有图片，但我认为去看看其他人在吃什么然后询问是一件非常好的事情。
Chinese people are generally very understanding and will usually be quite welcoming about this sort of thing.
中国人一般都很理解，对这种事情通常会很欢迎。
Try to order a variety of dishes.
尝试点不同种类的菜肴。
One great mistake you can make is just order all dishes which are deep-fried or red-braised.
你可能犯的一个重大错误就是只点所有油炸或红烧的菜肴。
You always want to have some lighter dishes that might seem less exciting, like simple stir-fried vegetables or a refreshing broth, but that’s part of the whole experience of the meal.
你总是想要一些清淡的菜肴，可能看起来不那么令人兴奋，比如简单的炒蔬菜或清爽的肉汤，但这是整个用餐体验的一部分。
Q&A with Ezra Klein, Megan McArdle, Mark Miller, and Eva Summer
埃兹拉·克莱因 (Ezra Klein)、梅根·麦卡德尔 (Megan McArdle)、马克·米勒 (Mark Miller) 和伊娃·萨默 (Eva Summer) 的问答
Thank you for being here and for ordering this meal.
感谢您来到这里并点了这顿饭。
What is the cuisine outside of Asia that, in its architecture and its structure, is most similar to Chinese cuisine?
亚洲以外的哪些菜系在建筑和结构上与中国菜最相似？
Outside Asia?
亚洲以外？
Outside Asia.
亚洲以外。
I would say that if you’re talking about farmhouse cooking, and the cooking actually, particularly at this region, I see a lot of affinities with Italian cooking.
我想说，如果你谈论的是农舍烹饪，实际上，特别是在这个地区的烹饪，我发现它与意大利烹饪有很多相似之处。
For example, one of the principles of the cooking of the Jiangnan region, xian xian he yi, unity of fresh and salted.
比如，江南地区的烹饪原则之一就是“鲜咸合一”，鲜咸合一。
The use of small amounts of cured pork and intensely flavored ingredients to bring life to vegetables and more gently flavored ingredients.
使用少量的腌制猪肉和味道浓郁的配料为蔬菜和味道更温和的配料带来活力。
Also, with Italian cooking, you get some very interesting pastas with Chinese as well, so that’s one.
另外，在意大利烹饪中，你也会得到一些非常有趣的中式意大利面，所以这就是其中之一。
I wouldn’t say that Italian cooking is anything like a match for Chinese in the complexity and diversity.
我不认为意大利烹饪的复杂性和多样性与中国烹饪有任何可比性。
Italy’s a tiny country by comparison, but there are some parallels that I see there.
相比之下，意大利是一个小国，但我在那里看到了一些相似之处。
I’ve read your books, and yet I find I’m kind of afraid to cook from them.
我读过你的书，但我发现我有点害怕用它们做饭。
My mom’s a caterer, and I grew up cooking a lot of really good American, and French, and so forth food.
我妈妈是一名餐饮承办商，我从小就烹饪很多非常美味的美式、法式等食物。
When you skip cuisines that far, you feel like you go in, and even though you’re doing everything it says in the recipe, you realize how much little skill is required just to make a recipe come out right.
当你跳过那么远的菜肴时，你会感觉自己进去了，即使你按照菜谱中所说的一切做了，你也会意识到仅仅需要多少技巧才能做出正确的菜谱。
It’s stuff that you don’t even know you’re doing because you know how it should be, you know how this thing works.
这是你甚至不知道自己在做的事情，因为你知道它应该是怎样的，你知道它是如何运作的。
What do people, who are starting out with a completely new cuisine, and for both Chinese and Western cooks going each way, how do you bridge that?
人们正在开始尝试一种全新的烹饪方式，而对于中西方厨师来说，他们是如何弥合这一点的呢？
Firstly, I totally understand where you’re coming from.
首先，我完全理解你来自哪里。
I can remember before I went to China, cooking from a Chinese cookbook and already a keen cook in other traditions, but thinking, “I just don’t know the grammar of this cuisine.
我记得在去中国之前，我根据中国食谱烹饪，并且已经热衷于其他传统的烹饪，但我想，“我只是不知道这种菜的语法。
I’m just following step by step and I don’t know what it means or where it’s going.”
我只是一步步跟随，我不知道这意味着什么，也不知道它会走向何方。”
I do understand that.
我确实明白这一点。
Of course, it helps to have tasted some of the food.
当然，品尝过一些食物会有所帮助。
Try to recreate recipes that you have maybe tasted as a starting point.
尝试重新创建您可能尝过的食谱作为起点。
I have cooked from your cookbooks, by the way.
顺便说一句，我是按照你的食谱做饭的。
I always worry that I’m not doing it right in some way.
我总是担心自己在某些方面做得不对。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
The book before this one, Every Grain of Rice, was specifically designed to address this.
在此之前的一本书《每一粒米》就是专门为解决这个问题而设计的。
Which is to introduce basic techniques and concepts, and fairly straightforward recipes which can be the building blocks for a sort of understanding what’s going on in Chinese cooking.
这是介绍基本的技术和概念，以及相当简单的食谱，这些食谱可以成为理解中国烹饪的基础。
I would start with the basics, trying to understand simple stir-fries, the art of mixing flavors for a cold dish, a little bit of cutting.
我会从基础知识开始，尝试了解简单的炒菜、凉菜混合口味的艺术，以及一点切割。
Just take it step by step.
只要一步一步来就可以了。
Also, you have to make one leap which, in terms of Chinese cooking, we’ve already discussed.
另外，你必须做出一个飞跃，就中国烹饪而言，我们已经讨论过这一点。
You have to go with a list of things, preferably in Chinese, too.
你必须列出一份清单，最好也是中文的。
Go to a Chinese supermarket, stock up on a few basics.
去一家中国超市，储备一些基本用品。
Then, you’re not going to have to do that every time you make a recipe.
这样，您就不必每次制作食谱时都这样做。
I had everything on your list except the fava bean paste, which I will now buy.
除了蚕豆酱之外，我已经把你清单上的所有东西都买了，我现在要买它。
I’m Mark Miller and a good friend of Fuchsia’s.
我是马克·米勒，也是紫红色的好朋友。
In your books, you use a lot of the language that gets reinterpreted into texture or flavor.
在你的书中，你使用了很多被重新解释为质地或味道的语言。
I’ve been studying basically how we actually learn perceptional taste.
我一直在研究我们如何真正学习感知品味。
Part of it is by memory of tasting something on the street.
部分原因是在街上品尝过一些东西的记忆。
Part of it is the structure of how we approach perception and how we frame it.
其中一部分是我们如何处理感知以及如何构建感知的结构。
Don’t you think that the example of your chef who couldn’t taste the food at The French Laundry, what he didn’t have was the framing of how to approach that perception?
难道你不认为你的厨师无法品尝法国洗衣房的食物的例子，他所没有的是如何接近这种看法的框架吗？
My question is, one, within Chinese perceptional framing, why can’t they move over to, for instance, a meal at The French Laundry?
我的问题是，第一，在中国人的认知框架内，为什么他们不能转向，例如，去法国洗衣店吃饭？
Why can’t, when they say, “nature,” just appreciate like a roast squab, a roast chicken with nothing done.
当他们说“自然”时，为什么不能像烤乳鸽、什么都没做的烤鸡一样欣赏呢？
None of the fishiness or the wildness taken out, but just accept it as natural and then roasted?
不把腥味、野味都去掉，就顺其自然，然后烤？
Well.
出色地。
I don’t think that their experience at The French Laundry is any different from a Western.
我不认为他们在 The French Laundry 的体验与西方的体验没有什么不同。
You could get a very accomplished Western eater who’s eaten at many fine restaurants, but who will not get sea cucumber.
你可能会遇到一个非常有成就的西方食客，他在许多高级餐厅吃过饭，但他不会吃海参。
The texture of sea cucumber is totally alien.
海参的质地完全是陌生的。
But I only eat sea cucumber in Spain where —
但我只在西班牙吃海参——
They actually do a better job because they don’t have that slimy part.
他们实际上做得更好，因为他们没有那个粘糊糊的部分。
They’ve actually perceptively changed it.
他们实际上已经敏锐地改变了它。
They’re called espadrilles in the south of Spain.
在西班牙南部，它们被称为草编鞋。
That’s the inner part, though, of the sea cucumber.
不过，那是海参的内部。
Not the outer part.
不是外面的部分。
That’s sea cucumber?
那是海参吗？
Oh I like those.
哦，我喜欢那些。
Yeah, those are good.
是的，那些都很好。
And there is peace in the land.
这片土地上充满了和平。
See?
看？
So there’s cultural framing, again.
所以又存在文化框架。
One culture doesn’t accept, it’s not the ingredient, but basically how we use our senses and frame that experience.
一种文化不接受，它不是成分，而是基本上我们如何使用我们的感官并构建这种体验。
One part is food that’s accepted to the body.
一部分是身体可以接受的食物。
The other part, “These things are very strange.
另一部分，“这些事情很奇怪。
I have no reference, and I really don’t like it.”
我没有参考资料，而且我真的不喜欢它。”
I don’t think there’s anything remarkable about this.
我不认为这有什么了不起的。
I think it’s just how people —
我认为人们就是这样——
No, it’s not.
不，不是。
But the Chinese have this problem with accepting — you said you cooked a meal of Western food for your Chinese friends in your memoir.
但中国人在接受方面存在一个问题——你在回忆录中说你为你的中国朋友做了一顿西餐。
They said, “It’s so boring.” Yet, I think, roast chicken or roast squab, just by itself, is perfect.
他们说：“这太无聊了。”然而，我认为，烤鸡或烤乳鸽本身就是完美的。
Roast game, roast beef.
烤野味，烤牛肉。
Yeah, but from a Chinese point of view, it is very boring.
是的，但从中国人的角度来看，这很无聊。
There are subtleties within aged beef, for instance, that they’re not getting.
例如，陈年牛肉中存在着他们无法理解的微妙之处。
Like really good —
真的很好——
Well, no. More cosmopolitan Chinese eaters who are now traveling are getting very interested in steak, actually, and aged beef.
嗯，不。越来越多正在旅行的国际化中国食客对牛排和陈牛肉非常感兴趣。
I’ll give you a good example.
我给你举一个很好的例子。
I’ve spent most of my time in Japan.
我大部分时间都在日本度过。
We have a really developed rice culture in Japan.
日本有非常发达的稻米文化。
A Japanese person will pick up a bowl.
日本人会端起一个碗。
They’ll smell it.
他们会闻到的。
It’s not fresh meaning that it’s milled more than a month ago.
这不是新鲜的意思，它是一个多月前研磨的。
They can tell you where it’s from.
他们可以告诉你它来自哪里。
The chefs will talk about their mixtures of rice and sushi.
厨师们将谈论他们的米饭和寿司的混合物。
In China, I have never, myself, personally, had seen that sort of connoisseurship about rice.
在中国，我个人从未见过对大米有如此高的鉴赏力。
Oh well I have about chilis, for example.
哦，例如，我有关于辣椒的事情。
Chefs I know in Sichuan who can go on for hours about the subtle distinctions of chilis.
我在四川认识的厨师可以花几个小时讲述辣椒的微妙区别。
What you were saying, that lots of Chinese people — it’s absolutely hilarious.
你所说的，很多中国人 ——这绝对是搞笑的。
I’ve lost count of the number of Chinese friends who’ve said that “xi can hen jian dan, hen dan diao” which means, “Western food is very simple and very monotonous.”
我已经记不清有多少中国朋友说过“西餐很简单，很简单”，意思是“西餐很简单，很单调”。
The point is I can understand why.
关键是我能理解为什么。
A roast chicken is a beautiful thing.
烤鸡是一件美丽的事情。
Say you have a perfect roast chicken, but a roast chicken is even better —
假设你有一只完美的烤鸡，但烤鸡甚至更好 -
If you follow it with a light, refreshing broth and a stir-fried green.
如果你再配上清淡爽口的肉汤和炒青菜。
Then you have the contrast of the roasty skin, which is quite rich and heavy, and the flesh, and then this delicate stir-fried vegetable, and the refreshing soup.
然后是烤得相当浓郁厚重的皮和肉的对比，然后是精致的炒蔬菜，还有清爽的汤。
Chinese food, it’s about the whole experience.
中国菜，关乎整个体验。
That’s why you have a whole variety of flavors even in a relatively simple meal.
这就是为什么即使是一顿相对简单的饭菜也有各种各样的口味。
It stimulates the palate.
它刺激味觉。
It also leaves you feeling very shufu.
这也让你感觉很舒服。
Chinese people really understand the comfort of eating.
中国人很懂得吃的舒服。
You don’t go out and finish with seven courses of sugar, and butter, and cream.
你不会出去吃七道菜的糖、黄油和奶油。
You might have a great sensory experience, but it’s not going to leave you sleeping very well that night.
您可能会获得很棒的感官体验，但这并不会让您那天晚上睡得很好。
Hi, I’m Eva from China, Shandong province.
大家好，我是 Eva，来自中国山东省。
I know that you’re a fluent Chinese speaker.
我知道你中文说得很流利。
My first question for you, I want to ask you a question in Chinese: 中国菜有八大菜系，其中鲁菜是一个典型的代表，在你印象中，鲁菜最典型的一个菜是什么?
我的第一个问题是，我想用中文问你一个问题：中国菜有八大菜系，其中鲁菜是一个典型的代表，在你的印象中，鲁菜最典型的一个菜是什么？
[“There are eight great cuisines in China and Shandong cuisine is a very typical one in these eight.
[“中国有八大菜系，鲁菜是这八大菜系中非常典型的一道菜。
Which dish has impressed you most in Shandong cuisine and is the most representative one?”]
鲁菜中哪道菜给你印象最深刻、最具代表性？”】
It’s just that people often talk about, in terms of eight great cuisines in Chinese cuisines, one of which is the cuisine of Shandong province known as lu cai.
只是人们常说的中国菜系中的八大菜系，其中之一就是被称为鲁菜的山东菜。
Eva’s just asking me which dish I consider most representative of lu cai, of Shandong cooking.
伊娃只是问我哪道菜最能代表鲁菜。
One very representative dish and one which I adore is cong shao hai shen, which is sea cucumber.
一道很有代表性的菜，也是我很喜欢的一道菜，就是葱烧海参，也就是海参。
Are you just trolling Mark and Tyler?
你只是在恶搞马克和泰勒吗？
Because that would be good.
因为那样就好了。
No, honestly.
不，老实说。
Or she is representing a sea cucumber firm.
或者她代表一家海参公司。
Big sea cucumber.
大海参。
It’s sea cucumber braised in a dark sauce with jing cong, that kind of Chinese leek, which is a very big and very mild leek scallion vegetable.
这是用黑酱红烧的海参，配上荆葱，也就是中国的韭菜，这是一种非常大且非常温和的韭葱蔬菜。
That’s a great classic.
这是一个伟大的经典。
In terms of Shandong cooking, it’s rather labor-intensive to prepare using a very expensive dried ingredient.
就山东烹饪而言，使用非常昂贵的干料来准备是相当费力的。
Shandong cooking, lu cai, is associated with stately banquet cooking.
山东菜，鲁菜，与庄严的宴会烹饪有关。
You do have this gorgeous flavor, the fragrance of the leek onion, and then the lovely, slippery, crisp texture of the sea cucumber.
你确实有这种华丽的味道，韭菜洋葱的香味，还有海参可爱、光滑、酥脆的质地。
You’ve emphasized, in this discussion, the balance of the meals and the way that often gets overlooked.
在这次讨论中，您强调了膳食的平衡以及经常被忽视的方式。
The way that American eaters will have a Chinese meal and think, “Oh, the bok choy is dull.
美国食客吃中餐时会想：“哦，白菜很乏味。
I’m going to have more of the 700-chilied chicken.”
我还要再吃700辣鸡。”
What are the other pieces of Chinese cuisine that Americans underrate their importance in the experience of the meal?
还有哪些中国菜在用餐体验中被美国人低估了？
Soup.
汤。
Almost every Chinese meal includes soup.
几乎每顿中餐都有汤。
If you go out to a very casual restaurant on your own and have fried noodles or fried rice, like a one-dish meal, almost always it will be served with a bowl full of broth, maybe with just a couple of scallions or something.
如果你一个人去一家很休闲的餐馆，吃炒面或者炒饭，比如一顿饭，几乎总是会配上一碗肉汤，也许只加几根葱什么的。
The idea is if you have something fried it’s a bit drying, and it’s very comfortable to moisten the throat and refresh you with a soup.
这个想法是，如果你吃的是油炸的东西，它有点干，滋润喉咙并用汤提神是很舒服的。
The way Westerners order Chinese food, often they wouldn’t have soup.
西方人点中餐时，通常不会有汤。
Almost every Chinese meal, whether at home or in a restaurant, you have soup.
几乎每顿中餐，无论是在家里还是在餐馆，都会有汤。
We don’t have a soup on the table here because there wasn’t room for it, so I didn’t want to order it.
我们这里的桌子上没有汤，因为没有地方放，所以我不想点。
An American eating problem.
美国人的饮食问题。
Also, with Chinese soups, the classic Chinese restaurant soups for Westerners are those thick, hot-and-sour soup or sweet corn and crab meat.
另外，说到中式汤，对于西方人来说，经典的中餐厅汤就是那些浓稠的酸辣汤或甜玉米蟹肉汤。
That’s really not a tang — that’s one word for a broth-like soup.
这真的不是“汤”——“汤”是指像肉汤一样的汤。
That’s a geng, which is a more substantial stew-soup.
那是羹，是一种比较浓的炖汤。
I’m talking again about these broths, which, again, might be very, very simple.
我再次谈论这些肉汤，这可能非常非常简单。
Like lovely, sour, umami pickled vegetable and tofu.
喜欢可爱、酸酸、鲜味的泡菜和豆腐。
Just that, and it’s like a refreshing drink.
就这样，它就像一杯提神饮料。
Do you think the Chinese will, because of their history of almost being repressed under the cultural revolution — culinarily, the cultures that seem to have been the most innovative in my generation were Spain, which emerged under Franco and became the most creative in Europe.
你认为中国人会吗？因为他们在文化大革命中几乎受到压制的历史？——在烹饪方面，我这一代人中最具创新性的文化似乎是西班牙，它在佛朗哥统治下崛起，成为欧洲最具创造力的文化。
You have Nordic, which escaped this puritanism of the north which was always there in the Scandinavia.
你有北欧语，它摆脱了斯堪的纳维亚半岛一直存在的北方清教主义。
American, which was really repressed because they didn’t have confidence.
美国真的很压抑，因为他们没有信心。
Now American chefs are very confident and are very good internationally.
现在美国的厨师非常有自信，在国际上也非常优秀。
Do you think that China will, after it goes through its flirting with this modernization and accepting Western brands whether it’s Starbucks or other, come out with a brand new authentic modern Chinese food?
您认为中国在经历了现代化的调情并接受西方品牌（无论是星巴克还是其他）之后，会推出一种全新的正宗现代中国食品吗？
And the young chefs are going that way in China?
中国的年轻厨师们也走上了这条路吗？
I would say you can get very excellent contemporary Chinese food rooted in traditional techniques.
我想说的是，你可以吃到植根于传统技艺的非常优秀的当代中国菜。
The sad thing is that chefing has become rather fashionable in the West.
可悲的是，烹饪在西方已经变得相当流行。
Young people want to do it.
年轻人都想做。
It’s glamorous and exciting.
它既迷人又令人兴奋。
That’s not the case in China.
中国的情况并非如此。
It’s still a low-status profession, although people love food.
尽管人们热爱食物，但这仍然是一个地位低下的职业。
Parents don’t really want their children to become chefs.
父母并不真的希望自己的孩子成为厨师。
I know outstanding chefs in China who, if they were in the West, would have queues of people from all over the world wanting to come and do stages in their kitchen, and they don’t have apprentices.
我认识一些中国的优秀厨师，如果他们在西方，就会有来自世界各地的人排队想要来到他们的厨房表演，而且他们没有学徒。
I always hear this complaint, “Young people in China, they’re not willing to chi ku, eat bitterness, to really apply themselves diligently to the craft of cookery.”
我总听到这样的抱怨，“中国的年轻人，不愿意吃苦，不愿意吃苦，不愿意真正用心去钻研烹饪这门手艺。”
There is a problem, this disjunct between people who are obsessed with eating, but not yet the idea that a young person might want to take over an artisanal soy sauce factory.
存在一个问题，即痴迷于饮食的人们之间的脱节，但还没有年轻人可能想要接管手工酱油工厂的想法。
It may be coming because some people have this idea of going back to a simpler life, back to nature.
它的到来可能是因为有些人有回归简单生活、回归自然的想法。
There is a revival of interest in Chinese cuisine as culture.
人们对中国美食作为文化的兴趣重新燃起。
Neal’s Yard.
尼尔的院子。
When I went to London when I was a student in the ’70s, it was very hard to find a farmhouse regional British cheese.
七十年代，当我还是一名学生时去伦敦时，很难找到英国农舍的当地奶酪。
And then Neal’s Yard basically started the revolution, again, that sparked that.
然后尼尔的院子基本上又开始了革命，再次引发了这场革命。
In America, we now have over 10,000 beers made in the United States with 4,200 microbreweries, and I grew up with probably 30 or 40.
在美国，现在有超过 10,000 种啤酒在美国生产，共有 4,200 家小型啤酒厂，而我长大的过程中大约有 30 或 40 家啤酒厂。
That’s a really good thing.
这真是一件好事。
Actually, one of the inspirations for my most recent book was the Dragon Well Manor restaurant in Hangzhou.
事实上，我最近一本书的灵感之一是杭州的龙井庄园餐厅。
Which is an exceptional place where the owner, Dai Jianjun, otherwise known as A Dai, is trying to nourish the traditions of the region by supporting food artisans, peasant producers.
这是一个特殊的地方，店主戴建军（也称为阿戴）试图通过支持食品工匠和农民生产者来滋养该地区的传统。
Trying to give people an honest living for producing what urbanites now consider to be premium, what we’d think of as organic, products.
努力让人们过上诚实的生活，生产都市人现在认为是优质的、我们认为是有机的产品。
What I fervently hope is that more Chinese people will see what he’s doing is truly inspirational.
我热切希望更多的中国人能够看到他所做的事情是真正鼓舞人心的。
As a wonderful example of how to nourish Chinese traditional culture.
作为如何滋养中国传统文化的一个很好的例子。
Make it economically viable and make it contemporarily relevant, too.
使其在经济上可行并具有当代意义。
Does he teach classes for Westerners?
他给西方人上课吗？
No.
不。
Oh.
哦。
Because that would be good.
因为那样就好了。
I was just in Shanghai two weeks ago.
两周前我刚到上海。
I go into K11, and what do I see?
我走进 K11，我看到了什么？
It’s Chinese women taking classes on how to make birthday cakes for their kids.
这是中国妇女在上如何为孩子制作生日蛋糕的课程。
Then I see the kids’ school, which is all about Western cooking and I’m thinking — I looked at the whole directory for the next three months.
然后我看到孩子们的学校，里面都是西式烹饪，我在想 —— 我看了接下来三个月的整个目录。
There wasn’t one Chinese cooking class that was being taught there.
那里没有开设任何一门中国烹饪课。
DUNLOP: Also in Hangzhou — which you know, has been a center of gastronomy for 800 years — 800 years ago, they had a restaurant scene with regional restaurants, Buddhist vegetarian restaurants, restaurants specializing oyster dishes.
邓洛普：同样在杭州——你知道，它在800年里一直是美食中心——800年前，那里有一个餐饮场所，有地方餐馆、佛教素食餐馆、专门从事牡蛎菜肴的餐馆。
Sea cucumber restaurants.
海参餐厅。
In Hangzhou a few years ago, they opened the Hangzhou Cuisine Museum.
几年前，他们在杭州开设了杭菜博物馆。
A single city has a huge museum with fantastic reconstructions, like sushi models of all the classic dishes over 800 years, literally.
一个城市就有一个巨大的博物馆，里面有精彩的重建，就像字面意义上的 800 多年来所有经典菜肴的寿司模型一样。
They also have a teaching element.
他们也有教学元素。
They have a restaurant attached.
他们附有一家餐厅。
They have activities and classes.
他们有活动和课程。
That’s another example of big local investment in trying to promote local food culture to a new generation.
这是当地大量投资试图向新一代推广当地饮食文化的另一个例子。
Chinese desserts.
中式甜点。
To a Westerner, they seem kind of meh.
对于西方人来说，他们看起来有点无聊。
I can come up with multiple theories on that, like, Chinese people just don’t like desserts that much, which you’ve actually suggested.
我可以对此提出多种理论，比如，中国人不太喜欢甜点，这实际上是你所建议的。
One is that pastry cooking is fundamentally a wheat activity.
一是糕点烹饪从根本上来说是一项小麦活动。
If you’re in the rice half, you don’t get as much of it.
如果你只吃一半米饭，你就得不到那么多。
Also, the US, if you look at the history of dessert as a major thing, it actually starts in the US because we’re closest to the sugar.
另外，在美国，如果你把甜点的历史视为一件大事，它实际上是从美国开始的，因为我们最接近糖。
Then that spreads.
然后这种情况就蔓延开来。
As sugar spreads into China, does dessert get better?
随着糖传入中国，甜点会变得更好吗？
MCARDLE: Or is it that they don’t like what we like and I’m missing the magic of Chinese dessert?
麦克卡德尔：或者是他们不喜欢我们喜欢的东西，而我错过了中式甜点的魔力？
The first thing to point out is that Chinese don’t have dessert as a course.
首先要指出的是，中国人没有甜点作为主菜。
You finish with fruit, usually.
通常，你会吃水果。
Sweet dishes tend to be either incidental snacks between meals, or something you have with tea, or you might have a mingling of sweet and savory dishes.
甜食往往是两餐之间附带的小吃，或者是与茶一起吃的东西，或者您可能会混合甜味和咸味菜肴。
You can have some sweet dishes with quite a lot of sugar in them.
你可以吃一些含大量糖的甜食。
There are also some regions where they have a lot of sweet foods.
也有一些地区有很多甜食。
Suzhou and Wuxi in the Jiangnan region, for example, or the Chaozhou region of the Cantonese South.
例如江南地区的苏州、无锡，或者粤南的潮州地区。
There are a whole range of wonderful, sweet pastries.
这里有各种精美的甜糕点。
Rice-based in the south, wheat-based in the north.
南方以水稻为主，北方以小麦为主。
For me, you know, as a great advocate of Chinese cooking, and I do have to admit that the desserts and sweet things is possibly one aspect in which Western cuisines might have the edge.
对我来说，作为中国烹饪的伟大倡导者，我必须承认甜点和甜食可能是西餐可能具有优势的一方面。
I think that’s because of the use of dairy products.
我认为这是因为乳制品的使用。
You get the wonderful, umami richness of butter, the textures of cream.
您将获得黄油的美妙鲜味和奶油的质感。
Chocolate, of course, is not used traditionally in China.
当然，中国传统上不使用巧克力。
Those things, if you take them out of Western desserts, you’re not left with very much in a way.
这些东西，如果你把它们从西式甜点中拿出来，在某种程度上你就不会剩下太多。
In China, a lot of the desserts, also they’re less sweet.
在中国，有很多甜点，而且都不那么甜。
People have less of a sweet tooth apart from a few regions.
除少数地区外，人们不太爱吃甜食。
You have things like sweet meats based on dried beans like mung beans or sweet potatoes.
你可以吃一些以绿豆或红薯等干豆为原料的甜肉。
And they’re actually very delicious.
它们实际上非常美味。
They don’t hit that extreme sweet spot that Westerners like for their dessert.
他们没有达到西方人喜欢的甜点的极致甜蜜点。
Could I ask a follow-up?
我可以询问后续吗？
Dairy, obviously, I know if you’re lactose intolerant as many Asians are, drinking milk is probably never going to happen, I agree with you.
乳制品，显然，我知道如果你像许多亚洲人一样患有乳糖不耐症，那么喝牛奶可能永远不会发生，我同意你的观点。
I don’t drink milk either, and my family are dairy farmers.
我也不喝牛奶，我家是奶农。
But all of this dairy in Western cuisine, and you see — I grew up in New York City, and even so, if I look at the range of exotic ingredients that were available even to me, shopping in what was then the best food city in the US, and what is available now, it’s just so much better.
但是西方美食中的所有这些乳制品，你看——我在纽约长大，即便如此，如果我看看那些甚至对我来说也能买到的异国食材，在当时美国最好的美食城购物，和现在可以买到的东西相比，那就好多了。
I think that’s true all over the world.
我认为全世界都是如此。
I still remember eating Mexican food in London in the ’90s, and that was a bad, bad, bad, experience.
我仍然记得九十年代在伦敦吃墨西哥菜，那是一次糟糕、糟糕、糟糕的经历。
I have British friends who swear that now, it’s different.
我有英国朋友发誓，现在情况不同了。
Don’t believe them.
不要相信他们。
I don’t quite, but I am willing to believe it’s better.
我不完全相信，但我愿意相信它会更好。
I have a German cookbook with a recipe for guacamole in it now.
我现在有一本德国食谱，里面有鳄梨酱的食谱。
You probably shouldn’t believe that recipe specifically.
你可能不应该特别相信那个食谱。
No, no, I have never tried the recipe.
不，不，我从来没有尝试过这个食谱。
As more Chinese people come to the West on vacation, to study, etc. — I met a grad student in Wisconsin of all places, a Chinese grad student, who was like, “I love cheese.
随着越来越多的中国人来到西方度假、学习等—— 我在威斯康星州各地遇到了一位研究生，一位中国研究生，他说，“我喜欢奶酪。
I can’t — I don’t know what I’m going to do when I go home.”
我不能 —— 我不知道回家后要做什么。”
I was shocked because this is the only Chinese person I’ve ever heard say this.
我很震惊，因为这是我听过的唯一一个中国人这么说。
Does dairy have a future in China?
乳制品在中国有未来吗？
Is there going be more of a spread for —
是否会有更多的传播——
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I think lots of Chinese parents now feed their children milk because they think it’ll make them grow big and strong.
我认为现在很多中国父母都给孩子喂牛奶，因为他们认为这会让他们长得又大又强壮。
All this thing about baby milk being imported in large quantities and so on.
所有这些都是关于婴儿奶粉大量进口等等。
Yes, milk specifically, is a nourishing thing for children.
是的，特别是牛奶，对孩子来说是一种滋补的东西。
Cheese is still a bit of a niche thing.
奶酪仍然是一个小众的东西。
You can buy it at supermarkets and cosmopolitan cities like Shanghai.
您可以在超市和上海等国际大都市购买。
China has a very dynamic, open food culture and people are always into the next best thing.
中国有着非常活跃、开放的饮食文化，人们总是追求次优的事物。
And chocolate, also.
还有巧克力。
When I was a student in China in the 1990s, I craved chocolate, and the Chinese chocolate was awful stuff.
20世纪90年代，当我在中国读书时，我非常渴望吃巧克力，但中国的巧克力很糟糕。
It wasn’t chocolate at all.
这根本不是巧克力。
Now, you can get chocolate of some kind all over China.
现在，你在中国各地都可以买到某种巧克力。
I think anything could happen.
我认为任何事情都可能发生。
扶霞，刚才你提到饮食文化，在中国人们也经常讲饮食文化、酒文化等很多种文化。在你的观点中，中国的饮食文化和中国文化之间是什么关系？[“Fuchsia, you just mentioned food culture.
扶霞，刚才你提到饮食文化，在中国人们也经常讲饮食文化、酒文化等很多种文化。在你的观点中，中国的饮食文化和中国文化之间是什么关系？ [“扶霞，你刚才提到了饮食文化。
In China, people often talk about “food culture,” “wine culture,” etc. In your view, what’s the relationship between Chinese food culture and Chinese culture?”]
在中国，人们经常谈论“饮食文化”、“酒文化”等，在您看来，中国饮食文化和中国文化之间的关系是什么？
In China and everywhere, where people often talk about food culture and wine culture.
在中国乃至世界各地，人们经常谈论饮食文化和酒文化。
In China, what’s the relationship between — sorry, what was the last bit?
在中国，“对不起，最后一点是什么”之间是什么关系？
Food culture and the Chinese culture.
饮食文化与中华文化。
I think food is and has always been really at the heart of Chinese culture.
我认为食物一直是中国文化的核心。
And there are two very important reasons for this.
这有两个非常重要的原因。
One is the ritual importance.
一是仪式的重要性。
Food is not just, and it hasn’t always been, just a social thing.
食物不仅仅是、而且也并非一直只是一种社交事物。
That cement that binds families and friends together.
是将家人和朋友联系在一起的粘合剂。
Food was the means by which you communicated with your ancestors and gods.
食物是你与祖先和神灵交流的方式。
Many of the rituals of state were to do with agriculture and with food.
许多国家仪式都与农业和食物有关。
It’s been a serious business.
这是一件严肃的事情。
Also, because food has, since the beginning of Chinese history, been understood as the absolute foundation of good health, there’s no difference between food and medicine in China.
而且，由于自古以来，食物就被认为是健康的绝对基础，所以食物和药物在中国没有区别。
They say yao shi tong yuan, the food and medicine come from the same source.
俗话说药食同源，食药同源。
Every food has its tonic properties.
每种食物都有其滋补功效。
If you’re unwell, the first thing you do is address your diet.
如果您身体不适，首先要做的就是解决饮食问题。
Food is very important in that way.
从这个角度来看，食物非常重要。
Another argument that’s sometimes given is that often Chinese people haven’t really been able to express themselves individually and there have often been political constraints on freedom of expression through history.
有时提出的另一个论点是，中国人往往无法真正单独表达自己的意见，而且历史上言论自由经常受到政治限制。
Food has been a source of immense joy and fun, and something free of all that.
食物是巨大快乐和乐趣的源泉，而且是摆脱这一切的东西。
Food in China particularly, it’s a culture that expresses itself intellectually through food.
尤其是中国的饮食，它是一种通过食物来表达智慧的文化。
The lyrical names of dishes, the stories associated with them.
菜肴的抒情名称，以及与之相关的故事。
Talking about food and gastronomy as conversation in this culture.
谈论食物和美食是这种文化中的对话。
In all these respects, food is culture in China.
从所有这些方面来说，饮食在中国就是一种文化。
It’s often observed, sometimes a little smugly —
人们经常观察到这一点，有时甚至有点沾沾自喜——
That a lot of what goes as Chinese food in America is not recognizable to the folks in China.
很多在美国被称为中餐的东西对于中国人来说是不认识的。
Is there anything Americans have done with Chinese food, either in the American/Chinese space or in the more Momofuku fancy Chinese fusion space, that is in your view an actual genuine advance?
美国人对中餐做了什么，无论是在美式/中式空间，还是在百福更花哨的中式融合空间，在你看来是真正的进步？
Something that would be valuable or valid in China?
在中国有价值或有效的东西？
In recent years, the growth of regional cuisines, regional restaurants like this one.
近年来，地方美食的增长，地方餐厅就像这样。
Here, we’ve got some authentic Sichuanese dishes, some dishes from Shanxi in Northern China.
在这里，我们有一些正宗的四川菜，一些来自中国北方山西的菜。
The opening up of regional cuisines and regional street food is changing perceptions of Chinese food.
地方美食和地方街头小吃的开放正在改变人们对中餐的看法。
You would have this in China, though?
不过在中国你会有这个吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Have we done anything interesting here to go backwards?
我们在这里做了什么有趣的事情来倒退吗？
Is there anything interesting in say the Momofuku efforts that is actually Americans contributing in some way to — ?
百福的努力实际上是美国人以某种方式为“——”做出了贡献，这有什么有趣的地方吗？
I would say at the level of individual dishes, very interesting dishes, but China has it all already.
我想说，就个别菜肴而言，非常有趣的菜肴，但中国已经拥有了这一切。
DUNLOP: Amazing combinations.
邓洛普：惊人的组合。
China is so diverse.
中国是如此多元化。
Apart from dairy and some sweet things and so on.
除了乳制品和一些甜食等等。
If you like hamburgers, that’s the Xi’an rou jia mo.
如果你喜欢汉堡，那就是西安肉夹馍。
It’s a kind of Xi’an hamburger.
这是西安汉堡的一种。
That’s one thing.
这是一回事。
They’ve got it all already.
他们已经得到了一切。
I think that means no.
我认为这意味着不。
What does General Tso’s chicken taste like to a Chinese person?
左宗棠鸡对于中国人来说是什么味道？
Interestingly, I did a whole research thing about this.
有趣的是，我对此进行了全面的研究。
It’s supposed to be Hunanese dish, right?
应该是湖南菜吧？
But I was very mystified when I went to Hunan to research my Hunan cookbook to find that nobody had every heard of it, really.
但当我去湖南研究我的湖南菜谱时，我发现没有人听说过它，真的，我很困惑。
It turned out — anyway, to cut a long story short — it was invented by a very famous Hunanese chef in Taiwan.
原来，“总之，长话短说”，它是台湾一位非常有名的湖南厨师发明的。
It went from him to New York when he opened a restaurant there near the United Nations.
当他在联合国附近开设一家餐馆时，他就将这种想法带到了纽约。
At one point, this chef, Peng Chang-kuei, did go back to his hometown Changsha, in the capital of Hunan province, and he opened a restaurant there.
这位厨师彭长贵曾一度回到家乡湖南省省会长沙，并在那里开了一家餐馆。
One of the dishes he served was General Tso’s chicken.
他提供的菜肴之一是左宗棠鸡。
I heard from people who remembered that restaurant, that the food there was too sweet.
我听记得那家餐厅的人说那里的食物太甜了。
That’s a dish that, in some ways, it has some characteristics of Hunanese food.
这道菜在某些方面具有湖南菜的一些特点。
The suan la, sour and hot, use of vinegar and scorched chilies.
酸辣，酸辣，用醋和辣椒。
But for American tastes, there’s a whole load of sugar, which they don’t really add to savory dishes much in Hunan.
但对于美国人的口味来说，糖的含量很高，而在湖南的咸味菜肴中，他们并没有添加太多糖。
When I’ve eaten dishes in Taipei, earlier on, the food in Taipei was better than mainland China because they had access to better ingredients.
之前我在台北吃过菜的时候，台北的食物比中国大陆的好吃，因为他们有更好的食材。
It was an educated, elite class that left China and brought their culinary traditions with them.
这是一个受过良好教育的精英阶层离开了中国，并带来了他们的烹饪传统。
They had access to the recipes, the technique, and so forth.
他们可以获得食谱、技术等等。
Is Taipei, you think, a repository of some of the more difficult dishes of the older style?
您认为台北是一些较难的老式菜肴的宝库吗？
A lot of that was interrupted, it seems like.
看起来很多事情都被打断了。
In China?
在中国？
Yeah.
是的。
Also, Taipei is a little bit more concerned about provenance of ingredient.
此外，台北更关心原料的来源。
I would say that in the early days, so 1949, the defeated nationalists fled to Taiwan with, as you were saying, the chefs and their food traditions.
我想说的是，在早期，即 1949 年，失败的民族主义者带着你所说的厨师和他们的饮食传统逃到了台湾。
At that time, the nationalists all thought they would go back.
当时，民族主义者都以为要回去。
They were all missing their home provinces.
他们都想念自己的家乡。
They wanted to eat the classic traditional food of the elites of these provinces.
他们想吃这些省份精英的经典传统食物。
The restaurants, by all accounts in the ’50s and ’60s, were very, very traditional and authentic.
从各方面来看，20世纪50年代和60年代的餐馆都非常非常传统和正宗。
But what’s happened since then is that there’s been a lot of mixing up.
但从那以后发生的事情是，出现了很多混乱。
The younger generation of chefs are Taiwan-born, so they might work for a bit in a Hunan restaurant, then go into a Jiangnan restaurant.
年轻一代的厨师是台湾人，可能先在湘菜馆工作一段时间，然后再进江南菜馆。
They’re all very mixed up.
他们都很混乱。
You go to a regional restaurant in Taiwan, and they’re either very old school and somehow not so good anymore, or they tend to be a bit more fusiony in Chinese terms.
你去台湾的一家地方餐厅，他们要么非常老派，不知何故不再那么好，要么他们的中文术语往往更融合一些。
Also in Taiwan, you have this whole Japanese influence from the colonial occupation.
同样在台湾，日本也受到殖民占领的影响。
Right.
正确的。
And also a particular regional bias for the Fujianese history of a many of the Taiwanese people.
许多台湾人对福建历史也有特殊的地域偏见。
I think 60 years on from that, I don’t — there are some like there’s a fantastic Suzhou bakery in this food street in Taiwan where they make really traditional Suzhou pastries.
我想从那时起60年过去了，我不认为在台湾的这条美食街上有一家很棒的苏州面包店，他们在那里制作真正传统的苏州糕点。
But a lot of it is a mixed up version of Chinese.
但其中很多都是中文的混合版本。
Not to say there’s not excellent — Taiwan’s a fantastic place to eat.
并不是说那里不好吃——台湾是一个很棒的吃饭的地方。
In China, sometimes it is difficult to find the real old-school cooking.
在中国，有时很难找到真正的老派烹饪。
That’s why what the Dragon Well Manor restaurant is doing is so important.
所以，龙井庄园餐厅所做的事情才如此重要。
It’s recruiting retired chefs to teach the younger generation the old skills.
它正在招募退休厨师向年轻一代传授古老的技能。
What is the dish in your cookbooks that is a place you would tell beginners to start?
在你的食谱中，你会告诉初学者从哪道菜开始？
What is a dish that they will be capable of making, and the results will hook them?
他们能够制作什么菜，并且结果会让他们着迷？
I think gong bao chicken is a really good introduction to stir frying because it’s not complicated.
我认为宫保鸡丁是炒菜的一个很好的入门，因为它并不复杂。
It doesn’t have many stages.
它没有很多阶段。
You can assemble all your ingredients in little bowls first, and then they just go one by one into the wok.
你可以先把所有的原料放在小碗里，然后把它们一一放进锅里。
It’s a knockout flavor.
这是一种绝妙的味道。
Everyone likes chicken.
每个人都喜欢鸡肉。
There’s no bones in it.
里面没有骨头。
A bit of spice.
一点香料。
Lovely layering of flavors.
可爱的口味层次感。
That’s one dish that I think people are surprised to find how straightforward it is and it’s addictively tasty.
我认为人们会惊讶地发现这道菜如此简单，而且味道令人上瘾。
As we all know you have been to China many times.
众所周知，您去过中国很多次。
What’s your next destination in China?
您在中国的下一个目的地是哪里？
What do you want to discover most?
你最想发现什么？
I just feel like the more I find out about Chinese food, the more there is to discover.
我只是觉得我对中国菜了解得越多，有更多的东西有待发现。
I feel like I’ll be learning my whole life.
我觉得我将一生都在学习。
I would love to do more work on the northern pasta arts.
我很想在北方面食艺术方面做更多的工作。
I’m currently learning a lot about the food of Yunnan, which is one of the most biodiverse regions on Earth, and as you’d expect, has a rather extraordinary range of ingredients.
我目前正在了解很多关于云南食物的知识，云南是地球上生物多样性最丰富的地区之一，正如你所期望的那样，它的原料种类相当丰富。
The thing about China is that its cuisines have been so relatively unexplored by the English-speaking world.
中国的问题在于，英语世界相对来说还没有探索过中国的美食。
There’s so much to discover and write about all over the country.
全国各地有太多值得探索和书写的东西。
Tell us what’s so unusual about Yunnan, because that to me was the big revelation.
告诉我们云南有什么不寻常的地方，因为这对我来说是一个重大的启示。
Every part of China I’ve been to, Yunnan surprised me the most.
我去过中国的每一个地方，云南给我的印象最深刻。
Dishes I’ve never even dreamt of and would not have thought of as Chinese.
我从来没有梦想过，也不会认为是中国菜。
You’d have some bread dipped in honey, or you’d have a donkey in a red sauce, almost in some ways like a curry sauce, or mushrooms in ways you had not imagined.
你会吃一些蘸了蜂蜜的面包，或者你会吃一头红酱驴肉，几乎在某种程度上就像咖喱酱，或者你意想不到的蘑菇。
What makes Yunnan special for you?
云南对您来说有什么特别之处？
It’s always been a marginal region with 20-something of China’s 56 ethnic minorities, so it’s extraordinarily diverse culturally.
它一直是中国56个少数民族中20多个少数民族的边缘地区，因此文化异常多元化。
It borders Burma, Laos, and Vietnam.
它与缅甸、老挝和越南接壤。
If you go to the south and the southwest of Yunnan, you’re really getting into Southeast Asian flavors and cooking techniques and ingredients.
如果你去云南南部和西南部，你真的会接触到东南亚风味、烹饪技术和食材。
Also you mentioned this incredible diversity of ingredients, insects, flowers, mushrooms.
您还提到了成分、昆虫、花卉、蘑菇等令人难以置信的多样性。
Bee larvae.
蜜蜂幼虫。
Bee larvae, yes.
蜜蜂幼虫，是的。
You can’t really understand it in terms of the classical schools of Chinese cooking.
你不能真正用中国烹饪的经典流派来理解它。
It’s a bit more adventurous.
这有点冒险。
Like the fact that there are a couple of notable forms of local cheese in Yunnan, which is just exceptional.
就像云南有几种著名的当地奶酪一样，这是非常特殊的。
It’s that diversity in that sense of being on the edge of empire.
这就是处于帝国边缘的多样性。
It was a region that was sometimes part of China, and sometimes it was doing its own thing.
这个地区有时是中国的一部分，有时又在做自己的事情。
You really feel that in the food.
你真的可以从食物中感受到这一点。
To close, four relatively quick questions.
最后，提出四个相对简单的问题。
One from each of us.
我们每人一份。
Eva, your quick question for Fuchsia.
伊娃，你想问一下紫红色的问题。
Just you have said, you have introduced the gong bao chicken.
刚才你说了，你介绍了宫保鸡丁。
What’s your most favorite Chinese dish?
你最喜欢的中国菜是什么？
One of my first loves and my best loves is yu xiang qie zi, fish-fragrant eggplant.
我的初恋和最爱之一是鱼香茄子。
That, for me, it’s a really simple everyday Sichuanese dish, but it’s got knockout, incredible flavors.
对我来说，这是一道非常简单的日常川菜，但它有令人惊叹的、令人难以置信的味道。
It’s eggplant with a classic fish-fragrant combination of pickled chilis, ginger, garlic, scallion, a bit of sweet and sour.
这是茄子配上经典的鱼香，搭配了腌辣椒、姜、蒜、葱，有点酸甜。
That’s, for me, an example of how you don’t have to be rich, you don’t have to be particularly accomplished in the kitchen to eat just fantastically well in China.
对我来说，这是一个例子，说明你不必富有，不必在厨房里特别有成就，就能在中国吃得非常好。
Ezra.
以斯拉.
The opposite of that question.
与这个问题相反。
What is your favorite Western chain restaurant?
您最喜欢的西式连锁餐厅是哪家？
And your favorite dish at it?
你最喜欢的菜是？
It’s not exactly Western although the chain restaurant I eat at most often is the Royal China chain of dim sum restaurants in London.
虽然我最常吃的连锁餐厅是伦敦的皇家中国连锁点心餐厅，但它并不完全是西式的。
This is not over.
这还没有结束。
I’m not accepting this answer.
我不接受这个答案。
OK.
好的。
Chain restaurants?
连锁餐厅？
I don’t really eat at chain restaurants.
我真的不去连锁餐厅吃饭。
KLEIN: There’s no part of you that loves a McFlurry, or — ?
克莱因：你身上没有一部分喜欢麦旋风，或者 —— ？
Pret?
漂亮吗？
Do you go to Pret?
你去普雷特吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I get sandwiches at Pret a Manger.
我在 Pret a Manger 买三明治。
Which one is your favorite there?
你最喜欢哪一个？
Um.
嗯。
Egg?
蛋？
I can’t really think.
我实在想不出来。
Bacon?
熏肉？
BLT sandwich at Pret.
Pret 的 BLT 三明治。
BLT.
生菜番茄三明治。
All right.
好的。
Mark?
标记？
This beautiful picture in your new book of the hams, what did you call it?
你的新火腿书中这张美丽的图片，你叫它什么？
The Jinhua ham from Zhejiang province.
来自浙江省的金华火腿。
Can you explain the taste of that?
你能解释一下它的味道吗？
I love ham.
我喜欢火腿。
Can you explain the difference?
你能解释一下其中的区别吗？
Which ham would it be closest to in my — would it be Spanish, Italian?
它最接近我的 —— 是西班牙火腿还是意大利火腿？
How was it cured, and what’s the flavor like?
它是如何腌制的，味道如何？
It’s closest perhaps to Spanish hams.
它可能最接近西班牙火腿。
Like Jabugos?
喜欢贾布戈斯吗？
A lot of Chinese chefs in the West would use that, would use Spanish ham as a substitute because you can’t often import Chinese meats to Europe.
很多西方的中国厨师会用它，会用西班牙火腿作为替代品，因为你不能经常将中国肉类进口到欧洲。
So pretty intense.
非常激烈。
It’s very intense.
非常激烈。
It’s fairly dense, garnet-colored meat.
这是相当致密的石榴色肉。
It’s not eaten raw.
它不是生吃的。
It’s used as an umami flavoring in cooked dishes mostly.
它主要用作熟菜中的鲜味调味品。
How was it aged?
它是如何老化的？
I’m not sure, actually.
事实上，我不确定。
I think a whole range.
我认为是整个范围。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Megan.
梅根。
What is the last Western food that will become popular in China?
最后在中国流行的西餐是什么？
What is the last Chinese food that will become popular in the West?
最后在西方流行的中国菜是什么？
The last Western food.
最后的西餐。
Maybe a really ripe, heady, stinky brie.
也许是一种非常成熟、令人陶醉、臭味十足的布里干酪。
I have an experience of trying to feed it to people in China.
我有过尝试将其喂给中国人的经历。
I read that.
我读到了。
The other way around, it would have to be something textural.
反过来说，它必须是有质感的东西。
Sea cucumber?
海参？
Sea cucumber is not allowed for this answer.
此答案不允许使用海参。
I could mention one very extreme textural delicacy that I’ve only ever come across once in China.
我可以提到一种质地非常极端的美味佳肴，我只在中国遇到过一次。
Probably most people in China wouldn’t eat it, but Sichuanese love their rubbery, crunchy, offal.
也许大多数中国人不会吃它，但四川人喜欢他们的橡胶、松脆的内脏。
That is the upper palates of pigs, which they call tiantang, paradise.
那是猪的上颚，他们称之为天堂，天堂。
I found it at a late night street store covered in chili and Sichuan pepper oil.
我在深夜的一家街头小店里发现了它，里面铺满了辣椒和花椒油。
I don’t think that will be a big hit in New York or London anytime soon.
我认为这不会很快在纽约或伦敦大受欢迎。
Very last question goes to me to close.
最后一个问题由我来结束。
What is your favorite Chinese film and why?
你最喜欢的中国电影是什么？为什么？
Eat Drink Man Woman, so Taiwanese.
吃喝男女，太台湾人了。
It’s a lovely story about food, but what’s extraordinary is the actual food you see in that film.
这是一个关于食物的可爱故事，但非凡的是你在电影中看到的实际食物。
Actually, by chance, I’ve come across the set of books that was clearly the source for that.
事实上，我偶然发现了一套书，这显然是它的来源。
There was an amazing series of cookery books produced around 1980, I think, when they photographed the classical dishes of four great cuisines of China.
我想，1980 年左右出版了一系列令人惊叹的烹饪书籍，当时他们拍摄了中国四大菜系的经典菜肴。
They shot them beautifully in antique dishes.
他们用古董盘子把它们拍得很漂亮。
This is, for me, the absolute pinnacle of classical Chinese cuisine.
对我来说，这是中国古典美食的绝对巅峰。
The people who researched the food for that film have done their homework.
研究那部电影食物的人已经做好了功课。
It is just ravishing, historically accurate Chinese food.
这是令人着迷的、符合历史的中国菜。
I thank the panel and most of all, Fuchsia.
我感谢专家小组，最重要的是 Fuchsia。
Thank you very much for a wonderful time and for the ordering.
非常感谢您度过了一段美好的时光并进行了订购。
Thank you.
谢谢。