Fuchsia Dunlop on the Story of Chinese Food (Ep. 199)

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.

大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。

Today, we’re sitting in Mama Chang restaurant in Fairfax, Virginia, one of my favorite restaurants of all time, anywhere.

今天，我们坐在弗吉尼亚州费尔法克斯的 Mama Chang 餐厅，这是我随时随地最喜欢的餐厅之一。

We are here with Fuchsia Dunlop.

我们和 Fuchsia Dunlop 一起来到这里。

Now, Fuchsia is the only individual we have done three Conversations with Tyler with, and that should tell you everything.

现在，紫红色是我们与泰勒进行过三次对话的唯一个人，这应该告诉你一切。

Thank you, Tyler.

谢谢你，泰勒。

Great to be back.

很高兴回来。

Let’s just start with very quick introductions of everyone at the table, going around this way.

让我们先快速介绍一下桌上的每个人，依次进行。

Lydia.

莉迪亚.

Hi everyone, I’m Lydia.

大家好，我是莉迪亚。

I am the business owner.

我是企业主。

This is my family business.

这是我的家族企业。

Welcome, everyone, to Mama Chang.

欢迎大家来到张妈妈。

Hi, my name’s Fergus.

嗨，我叫弗格斯。

I work on The Fitzwilliam, an online publication of Irish ideas.

我在 The Fitzwilliam 工作，这是一份爱尔兰思想的在线出版物。

I’m Sam.

我是萨姆。

I’m an economics undergrad, and I work on Fitzwilliam with Fergus.

我是一名经济学本科生，我和弗格斯一起研究菲茨威廉。

I’m Rasheed, and I help Tyler at Mercatus with Emergent Ventures.

我是拉希德，我在 Mercatus 的 Emergent Ventures 为泰勒提供帮助。

I’m Dan Wang.

我是王丹。

I’ve spent the last six years in China, and now I’m at the Yale Law School as a visiting scholar.

过去六年我在中国度过，现在我在耶鲁大学法学院作为访问学者。

Very simple question to start for Fuchsia.

对于 Fuchsia 来说，这是一个非常简单的问题。

How is real soy sauce better than what we might buy in the store?

真正的酱油比我们在商店买的酱油好在哪里？

Well, I guess naturally fermented, artisanal soy sauce has a tang to it and a richness which would be much more impressive than your average mass-manufactured soy sauce, if you’re lucky enough to get some.

嗯，我想自然发酵的手工酱油有一种味道和浓郁的味道，如果你足够幸运能买到的话，它会比普通的批量生产的酱油更令人印象深刻。

How many different soy sauces do you either make or own?

您制作或拥有多少种不同的酱油？

Oh, I don’t make them, but I don’t have that many, actually.

哦，我不做，但实际上我没有那么多。

A select few.

精选几个。

There are other decisions to make when cooking, apart from choosing between 50 soy sauces.

除了在 50 种酱油中进行选择之外，烹饪时还需要做出其他决定。

Where in China has the best soy sauce and your favorite, in your opinion?

您认为中国哪里有最好的酱油和您最喜欢的酱油？

Well, Fujian is supposed to be best for artisanal soy sauce.

嗯，福建应该是手工酱油最好的地方。

There’s an amazing, really traditional soy sauce factory in Hujiang, in southern Sichuan, and it’s this magical place on the banks of the river with all these clay pots — tanza— with straw hats covering them when it rains, laid out with traditional buildings.

在四川南部的壶江，有一个令人惊叹的、真正传统的酱油厂，这是一个神奇的地方，位于河岸上，到处都是陶罐，下雨时还用草帽盖住它们，还有传统的建筑。

They do traditional, old-fashioned, no-modern-innovation soy sauce, and a combination of the flavor and the place is just exceptional.

他们做传统的、老式的、没有现代创新的酱油，味道和地方的结合非常特别。

Many of your books — they’re cookbooks, they’re history books, they’re also a kind of cultural studies set of books.

你的很多书————它们是烹饪书，它们是历史书，它们也是一种文化研究书籍。

Your latest book — again, Invitation to a Banquet — is primarily a history.

你的新书 ——再次，《宴会邀请函》——主要是一部历史。

It’s not a recipes book.

这不是一本食谱书。

After having gone through so much history of Chinese food, what updates have you made, or what have you changed your mind about?

经历了这么多中国美食的历史，你有什么更新，或者你改变了什么想法？

What do you now see differently?

现在你有什么不同的看法吗？

Well, I suppose that the striking thing about Chinese culinary history is that there are these extraordinary continuities, going back thousands of years in some cases.

嗯，我认为中国烹饪史的惊人之处在于它们具有非凡的连续性，在某些情况下可以追溯到数千年前。

Steaming, for example, since the Neolithic age, or making fermented soybean products going back more than 2,000 years.

例如，自新石器时代以来就开始蒸制，而发酵豆制品的制作则可以追溯到 2000 多年前。

We’re here in 2023.

我们在 2023 年来到这里。

You’ve been to China recently.

你最近去过中国。

You went all over; perhaps you had a few meals.

你走遍了；也许你吃了几顿饭。

During pandemic times, it was hard to get there.

疫情期间，去那里很困难。

Over those years, what has changed?

这些年，发生了什么变化？

Or what has struck you as different?

或者是什么让你觉得与众不同？

Well, going back, the first thing that was really striking — there were many fewer foreigners.

好吧，回过头来，第一件真正令人震惊的事情是——外国人少了很多。

When I was there in the ’90s, there weren’t many foreigners at all, and I felt very conspicuous.

90年代我去的时候，外国人根本不多，感觉很显眼。

Then there’s been a period with loads of expats and visitors and tourists.

然后有一段时间有大量的外籍人士、游客和游客。

In the wake of the pandemic, again, I was feeling like I was the only foreigner around.

疫情爆发后，我再次感觉自己是周围唯一的外国人。

Food-wise, one thing that I found hilarious and surprising was having take-outs delivered to a hotel room by robots.

在食物方面，我觉得有趣又令人惊讶的一件事是机器人将外卖送到酒店房间。

That’s never happened to me here.

我这里从来没有发生过这种事。

So, technological advances.

所以，技术进步。

I have more questions, but now we turn to Lydia to tell us what just arrived.

我还有更多问题，但现在我们请莉迪亚告诉我们刚刚收到的东西。

Right.

正确的。

Welcome to Mama Chang.

欢迎来到张妈妈。

Today, we’re having a banquet meal, so Invitation to a Banquet.

今天我们要吃宴会，所以请宴会。

We typically like to start our banquet meal with something cold, a cold platter.

我们通常喜欢以冷盘、冷盘来开始我们的宴会餐。

Today, we have a platter of four different kinds.

今天，我们有四种不同种类的拼盘。

We have the fava beans with goji berry, we have the braised shiitake mushroom, we have some tofu skin and mala beef jerky.

我们有枸杞蚕豆，红烧香菇，豆腐皮和麻辣牛肉干。

Fuchsia, are Chinese eating habits individualizing?

Fuchsia，中国人的饮食习惯个性化了吗？

We’re here together as a group.

我们作为一个团队在一起。

We’re going to share a lot of dishes.

我们将分享很多菜肴。

It’s how it should be done.

这就是应该如何做。

But as you know, birth rates are declining.

但如您所知，出生率正在下降。

More people in many countries spend more time alone.

在许多国家，越来越多的人花更多的时间独处。

That makes it harder to have that kind of meal.

这使得吃这样的饭变得更加困难。

How is that evolving in China?

中国的情况如何发展？

Well, I think it’s very noticeable that restaurants in cities — there are more restaurants with small tables designed for couples and smaller groups.

嗯，我认为城市里的餐馆非常引人注目 ——有更多的餐馆设有专为情侣和小团体设计的小桌子。

You still have the round-table big gangs, but also alternatives.

你仍然有圆桌大帮派，但也有其他选择。

I have more questions, but let me now turn to Dan Wang to my left, who will ask a question or two.

我还有更多问题，但现在请让我左边的王丹问一两个问题。

Fuchsia, in your book, you quote Ferran Adria as saying.

紫红色，在你的书中，你引用了费兰·阿德里亚的话。

“Who is the most important culinary figure of the last 50 years?

“谁是过去 50 年来最重要的烹饪人物？

Well, surely it is Mao Zedong because the chairman sent all of China’s farmers and all of China’s chefs to work in factories, thus destroying the preeminence of Chinese cuisine.” Is he right?

嗯，肯定是毛泽东，因为毛泽东主席把中国所有的农民和中国所有的厨师都派到工厂去工作，从而破坏了中国烹饪的卓越地位。”他说得对吗？

How much do we really understand what culinary culture was before the People’s Republic?

我们对中华人民共和国之前的饮食文化到底了解多少？

And can we recover a lot of those traditions now?

我们现在可以恢复很多这些传统吗？

One of the reasons that I wrote this book is that it seems to me extraordinary that China has this exceptional cuisine which is so diverse and sophisticated and also which resonates with so many contemporary concerns.

我写这本书的原因之一是，在我看来，中国拥有如此独特的美食，如此多样化和精致，并且与许多当代关注点产生共鸣，这似乎是非同寻常的。

There are parallels in China going back to the 10th century of people making imitation meats from plant foods.

中国的类似情况可以追溯到十世纪，人们就用植物性食品制作人造肉。

You have this tremendously creative, transformational cuisine which echoes the avant-garde cooking of modernist chefs in the West.

这种极具创意、变革性的美食与西方现代主义厨师的前卫烹饪相呼应。

All this stuff, and yet China has been the terra incognita for many people in the food world.

所有这些，但中国对于食品界的许多人来说却是未知的领域。

Can we cook a 10th-century meal from Hangzhou today, or is that mostly lost to us?

今天我们还能在杭州做一顿10世纪的饭菜吗？还是我们已经失去了这些？

Well, the frustrating thing is that there’s an amazing source of — what is it?

嗯，令人沮丧的是，有一个令人惊奇的来源——它是什么？

— 12th, 13th-century Hangzhou, describing all the food served in city restaurants.

— 12、13世纪的杭州，描述了城市餐馆提供的所有食物。

It is dizzying.

令人眼花缭乱。

There were all different kinds of restaurants: regional, Buddhist vegetarian restaurants, restaurants for students, and snack shops of different kinds.

餐馆种类繁多，有地方菜馆、佛教素食馆、学生餐厅、各种小吃店。

The author lists all these delicacies, but there are no recipes or descriptions.

作者列出了所有这些美食，但没有食谱或说明。

There’s tantalizingly not very complete information, but you could .

虽然信息不是很完整，但你可以。

.

。

.

。

Fuchsia, we’ll give you a moment to eat.

紫红色，我们给你一点时间吃饭。

I’ll ask you, Dan, a question.

丹，我问你一个问题。

Much of the pandemic you spent in China, some of that in Yunnan.

这场大流行病大部分是在中国度过的，其中一些是在云南度过的。

What did you learn about Yunnanese food during those months?

在这几个月里，您对云南美食了解了哪些？

I wonder whether Yunnanese food can be considered a cuisine as such.

我想知道云南菜是否也可以算作菜系？

I think it is mostly not a very convenient label.

我认为这主要不是一个非常方便的标签。

Yunnan is a very mountainous region that is historic Tibet in the north and is close to being culturally Thailand, Cambodia, and Myanmar in the south, where it borders.

云南是一个多山的地区，北部是历史悠久的西藏，南部与泰国、柬埔寨和缅甸接壤。

Question for Rasheed; we’ll get back to Fuchsia in a moment.

向拉希德提出的问题；我们稍后会回到 Fuchsia。

You’re from Barbados.

你来自巴巴多斯。

Chinese food is different in every country, every region.

每个国家、每个地区的中国菜都有所不同。

How is Chinese food different in the Caribbean?

加勒比地区的中餐有何不同？

Chinese food in Barbados is actually quite dull, unfortunately.

不幸的是，巴巴多斯的中餐实际上很乏味。

However, in Panama, where I also live, Chinese food is probably as exuberant as you would find in some parts of China.

然而，在我也居住的巴拿马，中餐可能和中国某些地方一样丰富。

There are parts of Panama — El Dorado area — where Chinese restaurants are packed.

巴拿马部分地区——埃尔多拉多地区——中餐馆云集。

They are full, not only with local Chinese, but also other Panamanian races.

他们吃饱了，不仅有当地华人，还有其他巴拿马人种。

It’s just a very big aspect of culture.

这只是文化的一个非常重要的方面。

Do you have a question for Fuchsia?

您对紫红色有疑问吗？

Yes.

是的。

Recently, given the often surprising boom of Sichuan food — globally even — there’s been a movement by some elements of the government, for example, to publish these Sichuan requirements.

最近，鉴于川菜经常出人意料的繁荣————甚至在全球————政府的一些部门发起了一项运动，例如发布这些川菜要求。

I’m curious how that has impacted some of the culinary styles in Sichuan.

我很好奇这对四川的一些烹饪风格有何影响。

As you said, there’s been a bid to standardize and categorize classic dishes.

正如你所说，人们一直在努力对经典菜肴进行标准化和分类。

The local government, also in Chongqing — they’ve produced publications which say this is mapo tofu, and this is the ingredients, like having an appellation contrôlée for wine or something.

重庆当地政府——他们出过出版物，说这是麻婆豆腐，这是配料，就像有一个名称控制酒什么的。

Do you have observations on what we’re eating so far?

到目前为止，您对我们吃的东西有什么看法吗？

Well, it’s certainly delicious, and it’s lovely to have some vegetable dishes.

嗯，确实很好吃，再加上一些蔬菜菜肴真是太好了。

That’s one of the things that Chinese food in the West, with the concentration on shrimp and chicken and beef and fried foods, and so on.

这是西方的中餐之一，主要是虾、鸡肉、牛肉和油炸食品等。

But actually, the glory of Chinese cooking is that there are so many vegetables.

但实际上，中国烹饪的辉煌之处在于有这么多的蔬菜。

It’s healthy and balanced and refreshing.

它健康、平衡、清爽。

For a typical quality Chinese meal — let’s say in the United States or maybe London — what percent of the credit should go to the chefs?

对于一顿典型的优质中餐 ——“比如说在美国或者伦敦”—— 厨师的功劳应该占百分之几？

And what percent of the credit should go to the people who bought the ingredients?

购买原料的人应该获得多少百分比的功劳？

How do you think about that?

您对此有何看法？

You’re quoting Yuan Mei, the great 18th-century Chinese gourmet.

你引用的是 18 世纪伟大的中国美食家袁枚的话。

Well, that’s another thing that’s really interesting, because I think Chinese food in the West is not associated with premium ingredients.

嗯，这是另一件非常有趣的事情，因为我认为西方的中餐与优质食材无关。

Yes.

是的。

I would say it comes maybe in both ways.

我想说，这可能是双向的。

We appreciate and we use a lot of local ingredients, from the Maryland crab that paired with our tofu skin.

我们欣赏并使用很多当地食材，包括与豆腐皮搭配的马里兰蟹。

We also go out of our way trying to look for seasonal, really good-quality white beans.

我们还竭尽全力寻找季节性的、真正优质的白豆。

We are about to have some Amish pork dumplings.

我们即将吃一些阿米什猪肉饺子。

We try to source the best ingredients, whatever we can find, and use them to make quality dishes.

我们尽力寻找最好的食材，无论我们能找到什么，并用它们来制作优质菜肴。

My feeling is that if Chinese cuisine in the future, in contemporary times, manages to unite the exceptional culinary skills of Chinese chefs with the old obsession with ingredients, they’re just going to blow everyone else away.

我的感觉是，如果未来的中国美食，在当代，能够将中国厨师卓越的烹饪技巧与对食材的古老痴迷结合起来，他们只会让其他人惊叹不已。

Fuchsia, you mentioned the terroir concept.

Fuchsia，你提到了风土概念。

For example, there’s a very high-end tea, for example, and they focus a lot on the terroir aspect.

比如说，有一种非常高端的茶，他们非常注重风土方面。

I’m wondering, how much of that is a quality difference?

我想知道，其中质量差异有多大？

Or is it really a big chunk of marketing itself?

或者它真的是营销本身的很大一部分吗？

It’s like wine, isn’t it?

就像酒一样，不是吗？

It’s exactly the same.

完全一样。

I think that, to an extent, probably the soil and the weather in a particular place will influence an ingredient.

我认为，在某种程度上，特定地方的土壤和天气可能会影响某种成分。

But clearly, there’s also a cultural and imaginative aspect.

但显然，还有文化和想象力的方面。

There’s a lot of fakery as well, so people pretending that they’re supplying Longjing tea from the Longjing hills around Hangzhou when it’s not actually that, but probably people who drink it still feel that it’s finer because of the label.

假货也很多，所以人们假装他们是从杭州附近的龙井山供应龙井茶，但实际上并非如此，但可能喝过它的人仍然因为标签而觉得它更好。

Sam, do you have a question for Fuchsia?

Sam，您有关于 Fuchsia 的问题吗？

Yes.

是的。

I went to India for the first time over the summer, and the food was wonderful, but it struck me that Indian food had transferred with relatively high fidelity to very high-end Indian restaurants in Glasgow or Birmingham, and so on.

夏天我第一次去印度，食物很棒，但令我震惊的是，印度食物已经以相对较高的保真度转移到了格拉斯哥或伯明翰等非常高端的印度餐馆。

Nothing in their cuisine was shocking to me in a way that I suspect it would be traveling around different areas of China.

他们的菜肴中没有什么让我感到震惊的，我怀疑它会在中国的不同地区传播。

You mentioned Chinese food in the West being so Cantonese, but is there more to it than that, or more factors that determine which cuisines translate with higher fidelity?

您提到西方的中餐非常粤式，但是否还有更多因素，或者更多因素决定哪些菜系的翻译保真度更高？

Yes.

是的。

The first thing is that China is absolutely vast, and it has a very stunning diversity of different terrains and climates with all the implications for produce, so there are so many ingredients from different places.

首先，中国幅员辽阔，不同地形和气候的多样性非常惊人，对农产品产生了各种影响，所以有很多来自不同地方的食材。

You’re only ever going to see small snapshots of this great richness of Chinese cuisine abroad, even though, now, we’re beginning to see Sichuanese food and different regional cuisines.

尽管现在我们开始看到川菜和不同的地方美食，但在国外你只能看到如此丰富的中国美食的一小部分。

There is so much more.

还有更多。

I’ve been researching this for about 30 years, and I’m still discovering entire new styles and local traditions practically every time I go to China.

我对此进行了大约 30 年的研究，几乎每次去中国我都会发现全新的风格和当地传统。

Yes, that’s right.

是的，没错。

If I can ask a follow-up question on this comparison between India and China.

我可以就印度和中国之间的比较提出一个后续问题吗？

Maybe this is half a question also for Tyler.

也许这对泰勒来说也是一个半问题。

Why do we associate Indian cuisine so much more with long simmers, whereas Chinese cuisine — of course, it is a little bit of everything, as Fuchsia knows so well, but it is often a little bit more associated with quick fries.

为什么我们更多地把印度菜与慢炖联系在一起，而中国菜——当然，它什么都有一点，正如 Fuchsia 所熟知的那样，但它通常更多地与快速炸薯条联系在一起。

What is the factor endowment here of these two very big countries, very big civilizations having somewhat divergent paths, as we imagine, with culinary traditions?

正如我们想象的那样，这两个非常大的国家、非常大的文明在烹饪传统方面有着不同的道路，这里的要素禀赋是什么？

That’s a really interesting question.

这是一个非常有趣的问题。

It’s hard to answer because I don’t really know anything about Indian food.

这个问题很难回答，因为我对印度菜一无所知。

I did have a really interesting conversation with an Indian who came on my tour to Yunnan earlier this year because I was speculating that one of the reasons that Chinese food is so diverse is that the Chinese are really open-minded, with very few taboos.

今年早些时候，我确实与一位来云南旅游的印度人进行了一次非常有趣的对话，因为我推测中国菜如此多样化的原因之一是中国人思想非常开放，几乎没有什么禁忌。

Apart from Muslims eating halal food and some Buddhists not eating meat, there’s a great adventurous open-mindedness to eating.

除了穆斯林吃清真食品和一些佛教徒不吃肉之外，人们对饮食也有很大的冒险开放心态。

Before I comment on that, Lydia, on the new dish, please tell us.

在我对此发表评论之前，莉迪亚，请告诉我们新菜。

Oh.

哦。

Apparently, it’s an empty plate now.

显然，现在它是一个空盘子。

We have a vegetarian spring roll.

我们有素食春卷。

Spring roll is something that we love to have as a holiday special.

春卷是我们喜欢吃的节日特色菜。

We have it over spring, the Lunar New Year.

我们在春天，即农历新年期间度过了它。

Actually, you wrap things together.

事实上，你把事情包装在一起。

Sometimes you add shrimp, pork, and for this one, we use vegetarian.

有时你会添加虾、猪肉，而这一次我们使用素食。

That’s a really amazing vegetarian dish.

这真是一道很棒的素菜。

On your India-China question — this is pure speculation, but my sense has been that China was wealthier earlier for a longer period of time, and on average stayed wealthier.

关于你的印度-中国问题——这纯粹是猜测，但我的感觉是，中国较早在较长一段时间内变得富裕，并且平均而言保持富裕。

So it had more in the way of meats, and you had people eating in large groups.

所以它有更多的肉类，而且人们一大群人一起吃。

So, the idea that you would chop up the meat, divide the meat, feed it to people, and then flash stir-fry the meat in some way.

所以，你可以把肉切碎，分开，喂给人们，然后以某种方式快速炒肉。

I have no take.

I have no take.

Another idea that I was thinking of .

我正在考虑的另一个想法。

.

。

.

。

Again, I don’t know about India, but China very early on — like in the Song Dynasty from about 12th century — had a really lively and developed and diverse restaurant scene with restaurants at different levels.

再说一次，我不了解印度的情况，但中国很早就（就像大约 12 世纪的宋朝）有着非常活跃、发达和多样化的餐馆场景，有不同级别的餐馆。

So eating out was a real thing.

所以外出就餐是一件真实的事情。

There were restaurants with menus where you would order your dishes, not just fixed menus and so on.

有些餐馆有菜单，你可以点菜，而不仅仅是固定菜单等等。

In those conditions, you do want dishes that can be made quickly to order.

在这种情况下，您确实需要可以快速订购的菜肴。

Maybe that would encourage the development of fast cooking methods as well as home cooking and slow — the pot on the stove in the home kitchen.

也许这会鼓励快速烹饪方法以及家庭烹饪和慢速烹饪方法的发展——家庭厨房炉子上的锅。

What about yi tand di san xian 一烫抵三鲜?

那“一摊三鲜一贴抵三鲜”呢？

The hot food would beat three times over the flavors.

热腾腾的食物比味道好三倍。

Chinese people love to eat quick, hot food.

中国人喜欢吃快的、热的食物。

Due to urbanization in China, right?

由于中国的城市化，对吗？

Actually, another thing is the emphasis on texture.

事实上，另一件事是对质感的重视。

I don’t really know about the history of this, but one of the really distinctive things about Chinese gastronomy is that the Chinese totally appreciate and understand texture to a degree that is unheard of anywhere else, really.

我不太了解这方面的历史，但中国美食的真正独特之处之一是，中国人完全欣赏和理解质地，达到了其他任何地方闻所未闻的程度，真的。

That’s why they enjoy eating so many slithery, rubbery, and also often tasteless foods that have interesting textures.

这就是为什么他们喜欢吃这么多滑溜溜的、有弹性的、而且往往无味但质地有趣的食物。

What’s your speculation on why this kougan 口感 is such a big feature of the Chinese food?

您认为为什么“口干口感”是中国菜的一大特色？

Okay, speculation again.

Okay, speculation again.

I think the thing about China — there was this ancient philosopher, Gaozi, who said shi se xing ye 食色性也, food and sex are human nature.

我觉得中国的事情是——古代有一位哲学家告子，他说食色性也，食性是人的本性。

There’s this unabashed pleasure in the physicality of eating.

吃东西时有一种毫不掩饰的愉悦感。

Really makes you wonder about the English approach to sex.

真的让你想知道英国人对待性的方式。

Yes.

是的。

Let’s pause swiftly on this.

让我们快速暂停一下。

Lydia, please tell us about the new dish.

莉迪亚，请给我们介绍一下新菜。

Oh, we are having a ginseng soup with what looks like tofu, but it’s actually chicken.

哦，我们喝的是人参汤，里面看起来像豆腐，但实际上是鸡肉。

The vegetarian version of it that Sam has — what can you tell us?

山姆的素食版 —— 你能告诉我们什么？

Oh, unfortunately, Sam, we don’t have a vegetarian version.

哦，不幸的是，山姆，我们没有素食版本。

It looks like tofu, it’s actually not.

看起来像豆腐，其实不是。

This is a classic Sichuan banquet dish, which goes back at least a hundred years.

这是一道经典的川菜，距今已有一百多年的历史。

It’s written about in a very famous text, early 20th century.

20 世纪初的一篇非常著名的文章中对此进行了描述。

It’s just a reminder that Sichuan food is not all spicy.

这只是提醒我们，川菜并不都是辣的。

Like any other Chinese cuisine, it’s about balance.

和其他中国菜一样，它注重平衡。

If you have very intensely flavored and hot dishes and oily dishes, you always have refreshing things like this lovely broth.

如果您有味道非常浓郁的热菜和油菜，那么您总是可以吃到像这种可爱的肉汤这样的清爽食物。

This is Amish chicken.

这是阿米什鸡。

How and why is that different and better?

如何以及为何有所不同且更好？

Let’s just say that the environment has a lot to do with how things are raised.

可以这么说，环境与事物的生长方式有很大关系。

When dad first met the Amish community, he felt a strong tie to the way they live.

当父亲第一次见到阿米什社区时，他感到与他们的生活方式有着紧密的联系。

It reminded him a lot of the time he was raised as a boy in the village in China in the ’60s.

这让他想起了很多六十年代他在中国农村长大的时光。

My grandmother was a farmer.

我的祖母是一名农民。

She used to be the one that’s earning all the credits and contributed that to the village government.

她曾经是获得所有学分并将其贡献给村政府的人。

In return, they don’t really have a lot to eat on the table.

作为回报，他们的餐桌上并没有太多东西可以吃。

The humble life of the Amish community reminded him a lot of nostalgia.

阿米什人社区简陋的生活让他想起很多怀旧之情。

Sam, do you have another question?

萨姆，你还有其他问题吗？

I was going to say, Tyler recently told me that the third-best chicken he ever had was an Amish chicken.

我想说的是，泰勒最近告诉我，他吃过的第三好的鸡是阿米什鸡。

It pleased me a lot because it implies you have an encyclopedic ranking of every chicken.

这让我很高兴，因为这意味着你对每只鸡都有一个百科全书式的排名。

To continue on the train of extremely speculative things, there’s this famous or perhaps infamous observation about whether areas of China engaged in mostly wheat-based or mostly rice-based agriculture has effects, centuries later, on various social outcomes, SAT scores, et cetera.

继续进行一系列极具推测性的事情，有一个著名的或可能是臭名昭著的观察，即中国主要从事小麦或水稻农业的地区是否会对几个世纪后的各种社会成果、SAT 成绩等产生影响。

Hmm, well .

Hmm, well .

.

。

.

。

An easy question, and you thought I asked hard ones.

一个简单的问题，你以为我问了一个很难的问题。

China was a whole civilization that grew around the staple grain, which was originally millet.

中国的整个文明都是围绕着主粮（最初是小米）发展起来的。

And all the rituals of the ancient Chinese state were about offering food to gods and ancestors, so wheat and alcohol, also millet and alcohol and so on, and roasted meats.

而中国古代国家所有的仪式都是祭祀神灵和祖先的食物，所以有小麦和酒精，还有小米和酒精等等，还有烤肉。

What’s interesting about that is that millet went on being the sacred grain right up until the end of the Chinese imperial period in about 1911, but it had actually disappeared from people’s daily diets.

有趣的是，直到1911年左右的中国帝制末期，小米一直是神圣的谷物，但实际上它已经从人们的日常饮食中消失了。

What remains of Manchu cooking in Chinese food today?

时至今日，中国菜中的满族烹饪还剩下什么？

There’s a bit in the book about this idea.

书中有一些关于这个想法的内容。

One of the distinctive things about Chinese cooking, going back about 2,000 years, is the habit of cutting food into small pieces and eating it with chopsticks.

中国烹饪的特色之一，可以追溯到大约2000年前，就是习惯将食物切成小块，然后用筷子吃。

And yet there are some dishes which are presented whole like a Cantonese ceremonial suckling pig or Peking duck.

但也有一些菜肴是整盘呈现的，就像粤式乳猪或北京烤鸭一样。

Of course, they’re cut up before they’re served because you don’t have knives at the Chinese dinner table.

当然，它们在上桌之前会被切碎，因为中国人的餐桌上没有刀。

Lydia, what is new on the table, please?

莉迪亚，请问桌子上有什么新东西吗？

It’s our homemade pork dumpling, and we use Amish pork.

这是我们自制的猪肉饺子，我们用的是阿米什猪肉。

Now maybe you can tell me what the difference is.

现在也许你可以告诉我有什么区别。

黑毛猪秋葵锅贴 Pan-fried Amish Iberico dumpling

黑毛猪秋葵锅贴 煎阿米什伊比利亚饺子

Fuchsia, why doesn’t pork, in particular, have a higher status in China?

紫红色，尤其是猪肉，为什么在中国没有更高的地位？

The Chinese eat so much of it.

中国人吃得太多了。

It’s maybe the best pork in the world, the best pork dishes, but it’s not the highest-status food or close to it.

它可能是世界上最好的猪肉，最好的猪肉菜肴，但它不是地位最高或接近的食物。

Because it’s popular and ubiquitous.

因为它很流行并且无处不在。

Pork is the celebratory food for anyone, traditionally.

传统上，猪肉是任何人的庆祝食物。

In China, if you want to get to the really highest echelons of gastronomy, you need rare, exotic, particular, and sought-after foods.

在中国，如果你想真正进入美食的最高梯队，你需要稀有的、异国情调的、独特的、受欢迎的食物。

Things like deer tendons — these are imperial delicacies.

鹿筋之类的东西，都是御膳。

Camel’s hump.

Camel’s hump.

Hashima, the ovarian fat of the snow frog — all these unusual delicacies, and bird’s nests were fabulously expensive.

雪蛤、雪蛙的卵巢脂肪——所有这些不寻常的美味佳肴，还有燕窝都非常昂贵。

These things are more prestigious in China because they’re scarce and expensive and extreme luxuries.

这些东西在中国更有声望，因为它们稀缺、昂贵，是极端的奢侈品。

Does bear’s paw actually taste good?

熊掌真的好吃吗？

You better ask someone else.

你最好问问别人。

Because you’ve never had it.

因为你从来没有拥有过。

Yes, you don’t have bear’s paw really served these days.

是的，现在你并没有真正吃到熊掌。

It appears in cookbooks right until the 1980s, even of state banquets, but it’s now something .

直到 20 世纪 80 年代，它才出现在烹饪书中，甚至出现在国宴上，但现在它已经成为了主流。

.

。

.

。

But you have lots of bears in America, don’t you?

但美国有很多熊，不是吗？

We do, but I don’t think you’re allowed to eat bear’s paw.

我们可以，但我不认为你可以吃熊掌。

I’m not sure.

我不知道。

Can’t you eat —

Can’t you eat —

I’ve never tried it.

我从来没有尝试过。

It seems awkward to eat at the very least, right?

至少吃起来感觉很尴尬吧？

If you’re Chinese, that’s no problem because people in China eat camel’s feet and pig’s feet, and they cook them to make the most of these gristly and gelatinous textures.

如果你是中国人，那没问题，因为中国人吃骆驼脚和猪脚，他们烹饪它们是为了充分利用这些软骨状和凝胶状的质地。

The fact that it’s highly grapplous and not appealing to a Western palate is no problem at all.

事实上，它的抓地力很强，而且不吸引西方人的口味，这根本不是问题。

Fergus, do you have questions?

弗格斯，你有什么问题吗？

Yes.

是的。

As we alluded to earlier, there’s this regional divide in China where in the north, wheat is primarily grown rather than rice, which is obviously much the same as Europe.

正如我们之前提到的，中国存在地区差异，北方主要种植小麦而不是水稻，这显然与欧洲非常相似。

What is the explanatory factor that means that in China, people tend to make noodles rather than bread, and obviously bread in Europe rather than noodles?

是什么解释因素意味着在中国人们更喜欢做面条而不是面包，而在欧洲显然人们更喜欢做面包而不是面条？

Are there factors, or a single factor, that explains that?

是否有一些因素或单一因素可以解释这一点？

There’s a very interesting book on the cultural history of chopsticks by Edward Q.

Edward Q 有一本关于筷子文化史的非常有趣的书。

Wang, who looks a bit at this.

王先生稍微看了一眼。

It seems that the Chinese, very early on, apart from eating food that was cut into small pieces, they really liked eating food that was plucked out of hot liquid.

看来中国人很早就除了吃切成小块的食物外，还很喜欢吃从热液体中捞出来的食物。

The classic ancient Chinese dish, long before stir fries and the more famous modern Chinese dishes, was the gēng, which was a soupy stew made from lots of ingredients that were cut into small pieces floating around together in liquid.

早在炒菜和更著名的现代中国菜肴之前，经典的古代中国菜肴就是“gēng”，它是一种汤汁炖菜，由许多成分制成，这些成分被切成小块，漂浮在液体中。

Of course, this evolved with the use of chopsticks, which are very suited for eating that kind of dish.

当然，这是随着筷子的使用而演变的，筷子非常适合吃这种菜。

Now, you live in London.

Now, you live in London.

If I’m looking for good Chinese food in London, conceptually, how should I go about it?

如果我在伦敦寻找美味的中餐，从概念上讲，我应该怎么做？

Should I run to Chinatown?

我应该跑去唐人街吗？

Should I go to the outer boroughs?

我应该去外围行政区吗？

Or what’s the right schema, apart from any particular place you might recommend?

或者，除了您可能推荐的任何特定位置之外，正确的模式是什么？

I would look at where Chinese students are eating, partly, so then you’ll get the more recent trends in China.

我会部分关注中国学生在哪里吃饭，这样你就能了解中国的最新趋势。

How do I find that out?

How do I find that out?

If I just ask ChatGPT, will it tell me where the Chinese students are eating?

如果我只问ChatGPT，它会告诉我中国学生在哪里吃饭吗？

No, you need someone who reads Chinese to go on social media and find what is being talked about.

不，你需要一个懂中文的人来上社交媒体并找到正在谈论的内容。

That would help.

那会有帮助的。

Maybe the app Xiaohongshu is going to help.

也许小红书应用程序会有所帮助。

Xiaohongshu.

小红书。

It’s popular among the students.

它在学生中很受欢迎。

Fuchsia, how much cumin is too much for a Dongbei barbecue?

紫红色，东北烧烤放多少孜然太多？

Oh, that’s a matter of taste.

哦，这是一个品味问题。

I’ve no idea.

我不知道。

Have you been assaulted by excessive amounts of cumin?

您是否被过量的小茴香袭击过？

To me, it varies so much because sometimes the cumin is just cumin flamed, essentially, and then sometimes it’s not at all.

对我来说，它的变化很大，因为有时孜然本质上只是孜然，有时根本不是。

I ask people, “How do you determine it?” They say, “Well, guess, taste.” But I feel it’s something more than just I decide today to put more cumin than not.

我问人们：“你如何确定它？”他们说：“好吧，猜猜，尝尝。”但我觉得这不仅仅是我今天决定放更多孜然的原因。

It’s very unstandard in that sense.

从这个意义上说，这是非常不标准的。

Hmm, I have no idea, I’m afraid.

嗯，恐怕我不知道。

A follow-up question.

一个后续问题。

A very standard Caribbean dish is jerk chicken, and a very strong component of that is soy sauce.

一道非常标准的加勒比菜是烤鸡，其中一个非常重要的成分是酱油。

People don’t always consider it as a Chinese influence, but of course it is.

人们并不总是认为这是中国的影响，但事实确实如此。

I’m curious, is there any other areas of standard dishes across the world where it has a very strong Chinese influence that people don’t really realize it?

我很好奇，世界上还有哪些标准菜品受到了中国人的强烈影响而人们却没有真正意识到？

Hmm, that’s hard to say.

嗯，这很难说。

I suppose all soy products is the influence of China because China domesticated the soybean very early on, and soy foods have been incredibly important.

我想所有的豆制品都是中国的影响，因为中国很早就驯化了大豆，豆制品非常重要。

Also, they came to Japan from China — making tofu and soy sauce.

另外，他们从中国来到日本——制作豆腐和酱油。

Wouldn’t Mexican mole be an example, those original pepper recipes from the 17th century?

墨西哥鼹鼠难道不是一个例子吗？那些来自 17 世纪的原始辣椒食谱？

What came on the galleon from the Philippines, a lot of Chinese-influenced ingredients.

从菲律宾来的大帆船上，有很多受中国影响的食材。

Oh, really?

哦真的吗？

I have been told, speculatively.

有人告诉我，推测性的。

I’m trying to think of examples.

我正在努力想一些例子。

I’m really not sure.

I’m really not sure.

If a reader is using your recipes, and they make a mistake, what’s the most likely mistake for them to make?

如果读者在使用你的食谱时犯了错误，那么他们最有可能犯的错误是什么？

Not paying attention to cutting things evenly with stir-fried food, maybe.

可能是炒菜的时候不注意切的均匀。

How does that influence the final taste?

这对最终的味道有何影响？

Or what goes wrong then?

或者说出了什么问题呢？

If you are stir-frying something that’s cut into slivers or slices, the whole point of stir-frying is meant to be very fast.

如果你炒的是切成条或片的东西，炒的目的就是要非常快。

The reason that it’s effective is that if the food is cut finely and evenly, then everything will be perfectly done at the same moment.

它之所以有效，是因为如果食物切得精细且均匀，那么一切都会在同一时刻完美完成。

If the cutting is clunky and uneven, then some pieces of food will be overcooked while others are still raw.

如果切割笨重且不均匀，则有些食物会煮过头，而另一些则仍是生的。

I think that’s maybe something that people don’t necessarily realize, that it’s not just aesthetically important, it’s also technically important in Chinese food.

我认为这可能是人们不一定意识到的事情，这不仅在美学上很重要，而且在中餐的技术上也很重要。

Why might an older Chinese chef be reluctant to stir-fry, himself or herself?

为什么一位年长的中国厨师不愿意亲自炒菜？

This is something that several people have told me, that stir-frying is perhaps the most difficult of all cooking methods in any cuisine because it’s so fast.

有几个人告诉我，炒菜可能是所有菜肴中最难的烹饪方法，因为它太快了。

There’s no room for maneuver.

没有回旋余地。

There’s no margin for error.

没有犯错的余地。

If you have food that’s finely cut and that is sensitive to heat, like stir-fried scallops, for example, if you overcook them, it’s a complete disaster.

如果你吃的是切得很细而且对热敏感的食物，比如炒扇贝，如果你把它们煮过头，那就完全是一场灾难。

You have to cook very quickly, and you have to add your seasonings absolutely correctly because you can’t start by making a holiday sauce when you can have a taste and then add a bit more lemon juice or whatever.

你必须非常快地烹饪，并且必须绝对正确地添加调味料，因为你不能先制作节日酱，然后再添加一点柠檬汁或其他东西。

You have to just have this instinct.

你必须有这种本能。

You may eat your dumpling.

你可以吃你的饺子了。

I have a question for Dan.

我有一个问题要问丹。

Dan, you’re a Canadian citizen.

丹，你是加拿大公民。

You’ve also spent plenty of time in China.

您也在中国度过了很多时间。

How was Chinese food different in the United States versus Canada?

美国和加拿大的中餐有何不同？

Depends on where you go.

取决于你去哪里。

Where I grew up in Ottawa, there wasn’t a terribly great amount of Chinese cuisine.

我在渥太华长大，那里没有太多的中国菜。

I think there was a little bit more of the Cantonese influence.

我认为粤语的影响更大一些。

Something like 11 percent of Canadians live abroad.

大约 11% 的加拿大人居住在国外。

I believe that is the highest ratio in the world.

我相信这是世界上最高的比例。

That is because in the ’90s, the Canadian government just offered extraordinary numbers of visas to Hong Kongers to basically escape Hong Kong before their return to the mainland.

这是因为在90年代，加拿大政府只是向香港人提供了大量签证，让他们在返回大陆之前基本上逃离香港。

That has a very big Cantonese influence.

这对粤语影响很大。

I’ve only been there three times.

我只去过那里三次。

My sense was they had first-rate Cantonese food.

我的感觉是他们有一流的粤菜。

Not quite as good as Hong Kong, but clearly the best in this hemisphere.

虽然不如香港，但显然是这个半球最好的。

In the other areas, at least at the time, they were much weaker.

在其他领域，至少在当时，他们要弱得多。

Right.

正确的。

Fergus and/or Sam, do you have comments on Chinese food in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, or anywhere else you’ve been?

Fergus 和/或 Sam，您对爱尔兰、北爱尔兰、苏格兰或您去过的其他地方的中餐有什么看法吗？

I suppose Chinese food in Ireland is similarly not very developed, like in Barbados.

我想爱尔兰的中餐同样不太发达，就像巴巴多斯一样。

If there’s any non-generic Chinese restaurant in Ireland, it’s probably Sichuan.

如果爱尔兰有一家非一般的中餐馆，那可能就是四川餐馆了。

I’m interested, how did Sichuan become — maybe this is a non-accurate description — the prestige cuisine?

我很好奇，四川是如何成为 —— 也许这是一个不准确的描述 —— 名菜？

If a first regional Chinese restaurant opens in a city, it’s most likely to be that one.

如果第一家地方中餐馆在某个城市开业，那么它很可能就是那个。

How did that happen?

这是怎么发生的？

I think that Sichuanese food travels really well.

我觉得川菜很适合旅行。

There are some cuisines, like the food of the Jiangnan region or Yunnan — we already said, there are so many really unique local ingredients that you can’t get elsewhere.

有一些美食，像江南的菜或者云南的菜——我们已经说过了，有很多非常独特的当地食材，是在其他地方买不到的。

When you think about Yunnan food, you think about these extraordinary ingredients.

当您想到云南美食时，您就会想到这些非凡的食材。

But Sichuan food — the heart and soul of Sichuanese cooking is in the artful combination of flavors.

但川菜——川菜的核心和灵魂在于口味的巧妙组合。

Not just mala, numbing and hot, but also yúxiāng, which is a bit of sweet and sour, pickled chili, ginger, garlic, spring onion.

不只是麻辣、麻辣，还有鱼香，就是有点酸甜的，腌制的辣椒、姜、蒜、葱。

All these wonderful combinations of flavors.

所有这些美妙的口味组合。

Lydia, could you speak to the new dish, please?

莉迪亚，你能谈谈新菜吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

We have a seafood stew with crispy rice.

我们有海鲜炖锅巴。

This is one of the typical dishes that you think, oh, you have a rice crispy on the top and cook everything so fast.

这是典型的菜肴之一，你会想，哦，上面有脆米饭，而且煮得这么快。

But I would probably call this one of the gong fu cai 功夫菜 because we homemade the fish balls, and that process on its own is probably eight to ten hours.

但我可能会称之为功夫菜之一，因为我们自制鱼丸，这个过程本身可能需要八到十个小时。

You see some jumbo shrimp in there, scallops, and they’re all cooked at different times for it to be at perfect condition.

你会看到里面有一些大虾、扇贝，它们都是在不同的时间煮熟的，以使其处于完美的状态。

What region is that from?

那是哪个地区的？

This is something my dad holds very dear to his heart.

这是我父亲非常珍视的事情。

The fish balls we eat back at home in Hubei.

我们在湖北老家吃的鱼丸。

I would call this a Hubei type.

我称之为湖北型。

How do you think about, not just any single dish, but how you put this meal together, a combination of dishes?

您如何考虑，不仅仅是任何单一菜肴，而是如何将这顿饭放在一起，将菜肴组合在一起？

What would you tell us?

你会告诉我们什么？

I have to say, if you go to any Chinese restaurant, it probably takes a mastermind to put a banquet menu like this, either someone that’s really knowledgeable in the ingredients, in the methods that things are prepared.

我不得不说，如果你去任何一家中国餐馆，摆出这样的宴会菜单可能需要一个策划者，要么是一个对食材、准备方法非常了解的人。

You get a good balance of something mild, something with soup, something crispy, different poultry.

你可以得到清淡的食物、带汤的食物、酥脆的食物、不同的家禽的良好平衡。

It’s really like putting puzzles together.

这真的就像把拼图拼在一起一样。

Great.

伟大的。

Fergus, comment or question?

弗格斯，评论还是问题？

Yes.

是的。

Going back to the exotic-ingredients aspect, I think we mentioned deer tendons earlier.

回到异国成分方面，我想我们之前提到过鹿筋。

In the West at least, deer, typically wild — it’s quite difficult to domesticate and farm them.

至少在西方，鹿通常是野生的——驯化和养殖它们相当困难。

What does the economy of accessing those ingredients in China look like?

在中国获取这些原料的经济状况如何？

Presumably, some are intensively farmed, if possible, but presumably, others are very difficult to get your hands on.

如果可能的话，其中一些可能是集约化养殖的，但其他一些可能很难获得。

They’re quite unusual.

他们很不寻常。

Some of them are imported as well, and some of them are wild.

其中有些也是进口的，有些是野生的。

Then, of course, one of the problems that China has is also with an illegal trade in wildlife, but that’s under the table.

当然，中国面临的问题之一也是野生动物的非法贸易，但这是秘密的。

That’s not in the open, so you are unlikely to find these things on sale in markets.

这不是公开的，所以你不太可能在市场上找到这些东西在出售。

Most people would never eat any wild food because it’s expensive and scarce.

大多数人永远不会吃任何野生食物，因为它昂贵且稀缺。

When I go to China, sometimes I’m disappointed when I see so many hot pot restaurants.

当我去中国时，有时看到这么多火锅店我会感到失望。

They’re typically pretty good, but they’re a bit all the same.

它们通常都相当不错，但又有点相似。

Maybe I’ll go eat there once during a trip, but after that, it’s just a plague.

也许我会在旅途中去那里吃一次，但在那之后，这只是一场瘟疫。

What’s your view on this?

您对此有何看法？

Why is this happening?

为什么会发生这种情况？

I totally agree with you.

我完全同意你的观点。

I call it the hotpotization of the Chinese restaurant scene.

我称之为中餐馆的火锅化。

Hot pot is great fun.

火锅真是太有趣了。

It’s really convivial, lively, inexpensive.

真的很欢乐、活泼、便宜。

It can be a very inexpensive way to eat and to share food with your friends, but in terms of cooking technique, it’s definitely low-skilled.

这是一种非常便宜的吃饭方式，也是与朋友分享食物的方式，但就烹饪技术而言，它绝对是低技能的。

That, of course, makes it hugely appealing for restaurateurs.

当然，这对餐馆老板来说非常有吸引力。

May I add?

我可以补充一下吗？

I think hot pot restaurants are like the McDonald’s in China.

我觉得火锅店就像中国的麦当劳。

Yes.

是的。

Well, a lot of them are, but you also have incredibly high-end ones with seafood and —

嗯，其中很多都是，但你也有令人难以置信的高端海鲜和 -

Abalone.

鲍鱼。

Yes, so you find them at all levels of the market, but it is a bit of a plague.

是的，所以你可以在市场的各个层面找到它们，但这有点像瘟疫。

Nice in moderation.

适度就好。

By the way, I have to say, the technique of this dish is fantastic and —

顺便说一句，这道菜的技术太棒了，而且 ——

Explain, please.

请解释一下。

Well, you’ve got an assembly of all different ingredients, and as you said, they’re cooked separately.

好吧，你已经得到了所有不同成分的组合，正如你所说，它们是分开烹饪的。

These fish balls have a lovely, light, delicate texture, but they’re not completely flaccid.

这些鱼丸口感可爱、轻盈、细腻，但并不完全松弛。

There’s a bit of liveliness to them — a bit of scallop in mine — sort of juiciness.

它们有一点活力 —— 我的有点扇贝 —— 有点多汁。

The prawn is beautifully silky and also a bit crisp, and you have the vegetables that are crisp and not overcooked.

虾非常丝滑，而且有点脆，蔬菜也脆而不煮过头。

That shows you that they’ve all been cooked separately to the peak, then combined together, and then you have the lovely contrast between the crisp crunch of the guoba, the rice crust, and the liquid.

这表明它们都是单独煮熟的，然后组合在一起，然后你就可以看到锅巴、锅巴和液体之间的脆脆嘎吱声之间的可爱对比。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

The new dish —

新菜 —

Sounds like you already had a bite.

听起来你已经咬过一口了。

COWEN: — please explain the difference between chicken of this sort, on the bone and not on the bone.

COWEN： — 请解释一下这种带骨鸡和不带骨鸡的区别。

This is not chicken.

这不是鸡。

We’re having scallops today, so we elevated it.

今天我们吃的是扇贝，所以我们把它提高了。

Yes, you are right.

是的你是对的。

Typically, we would serve this as La Zi Ji, red chili pepper chicken, and some people would like to call it the treasure chicken because you have to find the chicken among a pile of red peppers.

通常，我们将其称为“辣子鸡”，即红辣椒鸡，有些人喜欢称其为“宝鸡”，因为你必须在一堆红辣椒中找到这只鸡。

To elevate it today, we’re eating wild scallops that has a good heat to it.

为了提高它今天，我们吃的是具有良好热量的野生扇贝。

It’s rather lovely.

相当可爱。

Do you see the garnish?

看到装饰了吗？

These very deftly, intricately cut cucumbers.

这些黄瓜切得非常巧妙、复杂。

That’s something that you hardly see these days.

这是如今你很难看到的事情。

It’s real classic old-school Chinese cooking, but it’s labor-intensive.

这是真正经典的老式中国烹饪，但它是劳动密集型的。

Did your father do it himself or one of his chefs?

你父亲是自己做的还是他的一位厨师做的？

He did it himself, and let me say, about 40 years ago, he was actually in a national competition to compete on the knife-cutting skill.

他自己做的，我说，大约四十年前，他其实在全国比赛中比拼切刀技术。

Really?

真的吗？

Because apart from the practical aspects of cutting — you have to cut to even chopsticks, the technical ones — evenness for stir-frying.

因为除了实际的切工——要切得筷子均匀之外，技术上的——炒菜的均匀。

There’s also the aesthetic aspect, and there’s this whole other thing — like the French sugar arts — or completely frivolous artistry with vegetable cutting.

还有美学方面，还有完全不同的东西——比如法国糖艺——或者完全无聊的蔬菜切割艺术。

Dan, do you have a view on hot pot?

丹，你对火锅有什么看法吗？

I think it’s terrible.

我觉得这太糟糕了。

What else is there to say?

还有什么可说的呢？

I think that a hot pot is a great social activity, but it is never really my first choice to eat.

我认为火锅是一项很棒的社交活动，但它从来都不是我的第一选择。

But on the point about chains, one of the things I’ve observed over the last few years is that there has been a pretty growing scale of chain restaurants featuring basically slow casual cuisine — I’m thinking about Shibei Noodles, I’m thinking about the sauerkraut fish restaurant — that is achieving remarkable consistency across all of these different restaurants, which is a pretty difficult thing to do, I understand.

但就连锁店而言，我在过去几年中观察到的一件事是，以慢速休闲美食为主的连锁餐厅的规模相当大， ——我想到的是市北面馆，我想到的是酸菜鱼餐厅—— 所有这些不同的餐厅都实现了显着的一致性，这是一件相当困难的事情，我理解。

Well, I don’t see why not.

好吧，我不明白为什么不。

I think they’d be very popular if they could export.

我认为如果他们能够出口的话，他们会很受欢迎。

I think that this technical innovation in Chinese food is something that’s going to be more and more, like we mentioned, the pre-prepared dishes, which is something that is not necessarily a good thing.

我认为中餐的这种技术创新将会越来越多，就像我们提到的预制菜肴，这不一定是一件好事。

Either Fuchsia or Dan, do you have an opinion on how good the Michelin Guide is for China?

无论是Fuchsia还是Dan，您对《米其林指南》对中国的影响有什么看法？

I guess Shanghai, in particular, might be where you would use it.

我想，尤其是上海，您可能会使用它。

I guess I would have never tried to look at the Michelin Guide anywhere.

我想我永远不会尝试在任何地方查看米其林指南。

That’s endogenous, right?

这是内生的，对吧？

Yes.

是的。

In China, I guess I would look a little bit more just at the apps and look at the photos.

在中国，我想我会更多地关注应用程序和照片。

Is Michelin Guide useful for you?

米其林指南对您有用吗？

Well, I think they do identify some of the very best restaurants in Shanghai, in Chengdu, and it’s helpful for people who don’t know Chinese to have some kind of guide.

嗯，我认为他们确实找到了上海和成都一些最好的餐厅，对于不懂中文的人来说，有一些指南是有帮助的。

But the downside is that the classic Michelin methodology is to send a single inspector to a restaurant to have a meal.

但缺点是，经典的米其林方法是派一名检查员到一家餐厅吃饭。

That means that eating like this, which is more typical of many very excellent Chinese restaurants, is a little impractical.

这意味着像这样的饮食（这是许多非常优秀的中餐馆的典型做法）有点不切实际。

I did interview someone from Michelin recently, and they said that, on occasion, they do allow inspectors to go out in groups.

我最近确实采访过米其林的一个人，他们说，有时他们确实允许检查员集体外出。

How are social media changing Chinese food?

社交媒体如何改变中国饮食？

In the US, people Instagram their food — I would say far too often — so there’s an incentive to create Instagrammable dishes.

在美国，人们会在 Instagram 上发布自己的食物 ——“我想说太频繁了”——所以人们就有动力去创造适合 Instagram 的菜肴。

What’s going on in China?

中国发生了什么？

Totally in China.

完全在中国。

Everyone’s on their phones like maniacs, like people everywhere else.

每个人都像疯子一样使用手机，就像其他地方的人一样。

Yes, and certainly very visually exciting.

是的，而且视觉上确实非常令人兴奋。

That’s one problem, actually, with Sichuanese food, that I think it’s the real drama dishes, like this La Zi chicken normally, which are great, but they’re just one facet of a very diverse cuisine.

事实上，对于川菜来说，这是一个问题，我认为这是真正的戏剧菜肴，比如通常的腊子鸡，它们很棒，但它们只是非常多样化的美食的一个方面。

Again, I think maybe they encourage restaurants not just in China, but everywhere.

再说一遍，我认为也许他们不仅鼓励中国的餐馆，而且鼓励世界各地的餐馆。

It’s the same pressures of social media.

这与社交媒体的压力相同。

Podcasts.

播客。

It brings people in, but when they’re in the restaurant, I guess, it’s the whole menu that dictates if we can keep them.

它吸引了人们进来，但当他们进入餐厅时，我想，是整个菜单决定了我们是否可以留住他们。

A lot of the time, restaurants suffer with, “Oh, we have a lot of one-time diners.” But they can’t because of Instagram.

很多时候，餐馆都会遇到这样的问题：“哦，我们有很多一次性食客。”但由于 Instagram，他们不能这么做。

The food is Instagrammable but actually doesn’t taste amazing, so what is the reason for them to come back?

这些食物在Instagram上很受欢迎，但实际上味道并不好，那么他们回来的原因是什么？

That goes beyond social media.

这超出了社交媒体的范围。

What is the new dish?

新菜是什么？

Oh, it looks like we have a.

哦，看来我们有一个。

.

。

.

。

In Chinese, umami has half fish and half lamb.

在中国，鲜味有一半是鱼，一半是羊肉。

This is a dish with full umami, with our fish ball and lamb stew.

这是一道鲜味十足的菜，配上我们的鱼丸和炖羊肉。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I heard about that as a Shanghai dish, and when I first heard about lamb and fish stew, I did not quite believe it as a real soup.

我听说这是一道上海菜，当我第一次听说羊肉炖鱼时，我不太相信它是真正的汤。

Have you been converted?

你已经皈依了吗？

I have been converted.

我已经皈依了。

I think it’s awesome.

我认为这太棒了。

Maybe you should go first?

也许你应该先走？

Okay, yes, please.

好的，是的，请。

Also, again, we were talking about the importance of soup.

另外，我们再次讨论了汤的重要性。

This is a proper Chinese meal — with a soup.

这才是正宗的中餐 —— 有汤。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

It’s not just one soup.

这不仅仅是一种汤。

It’s courses of soups.

这是汤菜。

Right, and a nice soupy dish.

对了，还有一道美味的汤菜。

Where in China have you not eaten the food?

中国哪里的美食你没吃过？

I have never been to Jiangxi province, and also, one place I really want to go is Heilongjiang in the Dongbei, northeast, because there it’s bordering Russia.

我没去过江西，而且我很想去的一个地方是东北部的黑龙江，因为那里与俄罗斯接壤。

And that’s going to be a whole other, lots of local ingredients and traditions and a bit of Russian influence.

这将是一个完全不同的情况，有很多当地的食材和传统，还有一点俄罗斯的影响。

There’s a very good restaurant in Dunhua right on the border of North Korea that has a very, very strong North Korean-Chinese cuisine combination.

敦化有一家非常好的餐厅，就在朝鲜边境，有非常非常浓郁的朝鲜和中国菜组合。

It’s the only place you can go to get that particular food.

这是您可以获得特定食物的唯一地方。

That’s, again, the diversity of Chinese cuisine, that you don’t only have the branches of classical Chinese gastronomy.

这又是中国美食的多样性，不仅仅有中国古典美食的分支。

But also you said in Yunnan, you have food that is Vietnamese, Thai, Laotian, and then in the northeast, Korean, Russian.

但你也说在云南，你有越南菜、泰国菜、老挝菜，还有东北菜、韩国菜、俄罗斯菜。

It’s very extraordinary.

这是非常非凡的。

Mongolian.

蒙。

In Shenyang, I quite like the food.

在沈阳，我很喜欢这里的食物。

Spicier than I was expecting it to be.

比我想象的还要辣。

Wonderful dumplings, maybe the best dumplings I’ve had in China.

很棒的饺子，也许是我在中国吃过的最好的饺子。

Oh, there are plenty of Shenyang dumpling restaurants there and other places, too.

哦，那里还有很多沉阳饺子馆，其他地方也有。

Since Korea was mentioned, my Korean friend has a theory that a lot or perhaps most of the global variation in cuisine can just be explained by temperature in different countries.

自从提到韩国后，我的韩国朋友有一个理论，即全球美食的很多或大部分差异可以用不同国家的温度来解释。

In particular, in western and northern Europe, it’s too cold to cook outdoors.

特别是在西欧和北欧，天气太冷，无法在户外做饭。

If you’re cooking indoors, and you don’t want to poison yourself from the fumes of the smoke, you have to rely a lot more on covered pots and cooking vessels that create less smoky, flavorful dishes.

如果你在室内做饭，并且不想被烟雾毒害，你就必须更多地依赖有盖的锅和烹饪容器，这样才能制作出烟雾较少、味道鲜美的菜肴。

I was trying to think.

我试着思考。

Chinese wok cooking does create a lot of smoke, but in lots of Chinese modern apartments, they would have a kitchen that’s almost like a balcony, where you can open all the windows so you don’t actually influence the place where people are sitting and eating, but it’s adjacent.

中国的炒锅做饭确实会产生很多烟，但在很多中国现代公寓里，他们会有一个几乎像阳台一样的厨房，在那里你可以打开所有的窗户，这样你实际上不会影响人们坐着吃饭的地方，但它是相邻的。

I suppose in the Dongbei north, you have lots of hearty stews and soups.

我想在东北北部，有很多丰盛的炖菜和汤。

Maybe to an extent .

也许在某种程度上。

.

。

.

。

Very interesting question.

非常有趣的问题。

The Sichuanese say they need to eat a lot of spicy foods because it’s such a humid and hot environment.

四川人说他们需要吃很多辛辣的食物，因为这里的环境又湿又热。

I’ve never understood that.

我一直不明白这一点。

Why is that helping with the humid environment?

为什么这对潮湿的环境有帮助？

Because it makes you sweat.

因为它会让你出汗。

Because it’s humid, you have this unhealthy dampness in your body, so you have to have ginger, chilies, peppercorns to make you sweat, and that drives out the unhealthy humidity and restores a lovely equilibrium.

因为天气潮湿，你体内有这种不健康的湿气，所以你必须吃生姜、辣椒、花椒来让你出汗，这样可以赶走不健康的湿气，恢复良好的平衡。

The funny thing about that that is a little inconsistent is that the Cantonese South is also pretty humid, it seems to me, and yet chilies are not advised there for eating.

有趣的是，这有点不一致，在我看来，广东南部也很潮湿，但不建议在那里吃辣椒。

CHANG: Plus, sweet water is, tiánshui.

张：另外，甜水是天水。

Oh, yes, that’s true.

哦，是的，确实如此。

Yes, you do other things for that.

是的，你为此做了其他事情。

This is a lovely texture, too, with the slithery, crisp, woody mushrooms as well.

这也是一种可爱的质地，还有滑滑、清脆的木香蘑菇。

You’ve noted very well, Fuchsia, that Chinese cuisine has a bit of an elitist bias.

Fuchsia，你已经清楚地注意到，中国菜有一点精英主义的偏见。

These eight great, great cuisines are very much concentrated in more rich, coastal provinces.

这八种伟大的美食主要集中在较富裕的沿海省份。

I wonder, can you just turn towards what a people’s history of Chinese cuisine could look like?

我想知道，你能看看一个民族的中国饮食史会是什么样子吗？

How do we actually incorporate these folk traditions a little bit better into our conception of Chinese food so it is not so Cantonese and Jiangnan-focused?

我们如何才能真正将这些民间传统更好地融入我们对中餐的理解中，从而使其不那么以粤菜和江南菜为主？

The first thing to say is, the eight great cuisines is a very recent scheme.

首先要说的是，八大菜系是一个很新的方案。

People talk about it as if it is something really old, but as I’ve said in my book, I think it only goes back to about 1980 or something.

人们谈论它就好像它是非常古老的东西一样，但正如我在书中所说，我认为它只能追溯到 1980 年左右。

There are many different ways of trying to express the regional diversity of Chinese food, all of them totally inadequate because it’s such a food-intricate culture.

有很多不同的方式试图表达中国美食的地域多样性，但所有这些方式都完全不够，因为中国的饮食文化是如此复杂。

The spicy ones are more popular right now.

现在比较流行的是辣的。

Spicy ones, yes.

辣的，是的。

Guizhou is also, and that’s not elitist cuisine.

贵州也是，那不是精英美食。

I think that the people writing about food are no longer the Confucian gentleman scholars.

我想现在写美食的人已经不再是儒家的君子学者了。

COWEN: Why has Hunan food fallen behind in the West?

COWEN：为什么湖南菜在西方落后了？

You used to have so many restaurants that claimed to be Szechuan and Hunan.

你们以前有很多自称是川菜、湖南菜的餐馆。

They weren’t really either one, but nominally, there was some connection.

他们实际上并不是任何一个，但名义上，存在某种联系。

Now, many more people want real Chinese food.

现在，更多的人想要真正的中国菜。

There’s plenty of more or less broadly authentic Szechuan places, but I don’t see broadly authentic Hunan places.

有很多或多或少正宗的四川地方，但我没有看到大致正宗的湖南地方。

What happened?

发生了什么？

Not so many.

没有那么多。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

My understanding was that Hunan food became quite popular after Nixon’s visit to China, and this was all Chairman Mao.

我的理解是，尼克松访华之后，湖南菜开始流行起来，这都是毛主席的功劳。

Then everybody just started advertising their Chinese restaurants as Hunanese cuisine.

然后每个人都开始将他们的中餐馆宣传为湖南菜。

I think that distorted our view, so maybe people have caught on.

我认为这扭曲了我们的观点，所以也许人们已经明白了。

Lydia, do you have a view on this?

莉迪亚，你对此有什么看法吗？

Are you tempted to serve Hunan dishes?

您想尝试一下湖南菜吗？

Yes.

是的。

May I introduce you to what we’re having?

我可以向您介绍一下我们有什么吗？

This is a Sam special, but it’s not fair to serve it only to Sam.

这是山姆的特色菜，但只给山姆吃是不公平的。

That’s why our table gets a separate platter.

这就是为什么我们的桌子有一个单独的拼盘。

This is Chef Peter’s signature dish.

这是Peter主厨的招牌菜。

It’s a dry-fried eggplant.

这是干炸茄子。

He has done so many ingredients the dry-fried way.

他用干炒的方式做了很多食材。

We call him a dry-fried master.

我们称他为干炒大师。

He can do it with fish.

他可以用鱼做到这一点。

He can do it with shrimp, with okra, with cauliflower, with shiitake mushroom.

他可以用虾、秋葵、花椰菜、香菇来做。

If you think about the family empire, how many restaurants is it now?

如果你想想这个家族帝国，现在有多少家餐厅？

I stopped counting.

我停止了数数。

You stopped counting, exactly.

准确地说，你已经停止计数了。

Obviously, the food is wonderful, but in terms of business principles, what has made the difference?

显然，食物很棒，但就商业原则而言，是什么造成了差异呢？

What have you all done that has been the difference maker, viewing them as commercial enterprises?

你们都做了什么事情，将它们视为商业企业，从而带来了改变？

All right, I have to start with the things that we have tried, but not in a way that is financially successful.

好吧，我必须从我们已经尝试过的事情开始，但不是以一种在财务上成功的方式。

We keep trying to offer new concepts.

我们不断尝试提供新概念。

We wanted to, in a way, offer modernized Chinese cuisine.

我们想在某种程度上提供现代化的中国美食。

People will call that more fusion or not really as authentic.

人们会称之为更加融合或不那么真实。

This is something I really want to ask the people sitting at the dining table.

这是我很想问坐在餐桌上的人们的问题。

When it comes to the traditions, the classics, the authenticity versus modern ambiance, what is the balance?

当谈到传统、经典、真实性与现代氛围时，平衡点是什么？

What is your ratio when it comes to, if I’m going to pick a place for a meal, what do you guys look for?

如果我要选一个吃饭的地方，你们会选择什么？

The floor is open.

地板是开放的。

I don’t think I’m a very usual diner, so I don’t care that much for ambiance.

我不认为我是一个很平常的用餐者，所以我不太在乎氛围。

Usually, I like a very dull place.

通常，我喜欢一个非常沉闷的地方。

I love Filipino foods also, and because I usually vary the meal location, just go in.

我也喜欢菲律宾菜，而且因为我通常会改变用餐地点，所以就进去吧。

It’s like a family restaurant, so they cook everything very simple, homemade, done, and you go in.

这就像一个家庭餐馆，所以他们做的一切都很简单，自制，完成，然后你就进去了。

They don’t have time for the other aspects of it.

他们没有时间考虑其他方面。

But I know when you go to those kind of places, the only other people there are the Filipinos.

但我知道当你去那些地方时，那里唯一的其他人就是菲律宾人。

I am against nice-looking restaurants —

我反对好看的餐馆 —

— because it attracts too much Instagramming.

— 因为它吸引了太多的 Instagram 转发。

We’re there for the food.

我们是来吃饭的。

We don’t want the photos.

我们不想要照片。

One of the key tenets in the Tyler Cowen theory of how to select a restaurant is looking for spelling mistakes on the menu.

泰勒·考恩（Tyler Cowen）选择餐厅理论的关键原则之一是寻找菜单上的拼写错误。

Similarly, I think some combination of Chinese clientele, not a particularly nice venue, and I guess also, when you’re in the restaurant, typically in the UK, if the service is not as warm and polite.

同样，我认为中国顾客的一些组合，不是一个特别好的场所，而且我想，当你在餐厅里时，通常是在英国，如果服务不那么热情和礼貌。

You like to be treated mean.

你喜欢被刻薄地对待。

Yes, that’s usually a very strong signal about the food being good, and I find that to be very true.

是的，这通常是一个非常强烈的信号，表明食物很好，我发现这是非常正确的。

I don’t think you should take any of this advice.

我认为你不应该接受这些建议。

Exactly, so this is a constant debate.

确实如此，所以这是一个持续的争论。

Well, Fuchsia, what do you look for?

那么，紫红色，你在寻找什么？

Do you look for a dining room full of at least 90 percent Chinese audience?

您是否正在寻找一家至少有 90% 的中国观众的餐厅？

Well, I think having a Chinese audience is a good sign, but I like everything.

嗯，我认为拥有中国观众是一个好兆头，但我喜欢一切。

Sometimes I like to go to beautiful places with amazing service and beautiful china and elegant presentation, and sometimes I like to go and have street food.

有时我喜欢去美丽的地方，那里有令人惊叹的服务、漂亮的瓷器和优雅的摆盘，有时我喜欢去吃街头小吃。

And that’s the joy of eating Chinese food — that you have something at every level.

这就是吃中国菜的乐趣——你可以在各个层面上有所收获。

I like it when the diners are grumpy.

我喜欢食客脾气暴躁的时候。

When they’re too happy, I start to get suspicious.

当他们太高兴时，我开始怀疑。

Why are they here?

他们为什么在这里？

Are they here to have a good time?

他们来这里是为了玩得开心吗？

There’s something about food.

有一些关于食物的事情。

You mentioned sex earlier.

你之前提到过性。

When you film people doing it, they don’t necessarily look happy.

当你拍摄人们这样做时，他们看起来并不一定很高兴。

Wow.

哇。

It’s true, I shouldn’t take any of this advice, but for Fuchsia, who is maybe closer to our day-to-day customer.

确实，我不应该接受任何建议，但对于 Fuchsia 来说，它可能更接近我们的日常客户。

It is absolutely true, when it comes to a business success, we look at what brings people back.

这是绝对正确的，当谈到商业成功时，我们会关注是什么让人们回心转意。

Yes, you can have a very peacocky, showy dish that maybe lights up in flame or something, that people look at it and they’re like, “Wow, I want to see what they’re really like.” But once they are in the door, we think about what makes them stay.

是的，你可以做一道非常孔雀、华丽的菜，它可能会在火焰或其他东西中发光，人们看到它会说，“哇，我想看看它们到底是什么样的。”但一旦他们进门，我们就会思考是什么让他们留下来。

It really goes down to the ingredients and their personal feelings.

这实际上取决于成分和他们的个人感受。

Maybe that’s a strong association with how you are being treated, but I believe there is a lot of perception about Chinese cuisine we’re trying to make a change to.

也许这与你受到的待遇有很大关系，但我相信，我们正在努力改变人们对中国美食的很多看法。

Again, I know that everyone at this table is a foodie and takes a lot of pride in standards and quality.

再说一遍，我知道餐桌上的每个人都是美食家，并对标准和质量感到非常自豪。

We’re trying to expand that audience.

我们正在努力扩大受众群体。

We want anyone that doesn’t know much about Chinese cooking coming to a restaurant and feel good about being here.

我们希望那些对中餐不太了解的人来到餐厅时都能感觉这里很舒服。

It’s not just them.

不只是他们。

It’s everyone they’re eating it with.

是和他们一起吃的每个人。

Tell us about the new dish, and should one eat it with chopsticks?

告诉我们这道新菜，应该用筷子吃吗？

Everyone should eat with chopsticks.

每个人都应该用筷子吃饭。

Yes, we have a pork belly dish that is, from the start, marinated and then coated with rice flour.

是的，我们有一道五花肉菜，从一开始就腌制，然后涂上米粉。

After it’s steamed and cooked 80 percent, 90 percent, then we want to create a crispy texture.

蒸熟80%、90%后，我们要做出酥脆的口感。

That’s when we start to put it in the wok, very quick, double-sided pan sear, and then add all the green jalapeño, the scallion, the red chili pepper, peppercorns.

这时我们开始把它放进锅里，非常快，双面煎锅，然后加入所有的绿色墨西哥辣椒、葱、红辣椒、花椒。

This is my favorite dish so far, this and the numbing beef.

这是迄今为止我最喜欢的菜，还有麻木牛肉。

Fuchsia, would you comment on this?

Fuchsia，你对此有何评论？

So, this thing, when you marinate the pork belly and you coat it in rice crumbs and you steam it, is a very classic Chinese country dish.

所以，这个东西，把五花肉腌好，裹上米糠，然后蒸熟，是一道非常经典的中国乡村菜。

It’s the first time I’ve had it fried like this, and it’s delicious.

我还是第一次吃这样的炸物，而且很好吃。

It’s like a new version of Hui Guo Rou, back in pot or twice-cooked pork.

它就像新版的回锅肉，回锅或回锅肉。

Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

If I can add, this is a dish that is very known in the household family.

如果我可以补充一下，这是一道在家庭中非常有名的菜。

When you have something steamed at home, my mom or my grandma will steam it for the first time and serve it as a beautiful first-time dish.

当你家里有蒸的东西时，我妈妈或我奶奶会第一次蒸它，并将其作为一道美丽的第一次菜肴。

But for something to be consumed later in the day or the next day, people tend to get tired of eating the same thing over and over, so they get really smart.

但对于当天晚些时候或第二天吃的东西，人们往往会厌倦一遍又一遍地吃同样的东西，所以他们变得非常聪明。

Why don’t we pan sear it, so it becomes a new dish?

为什么我们不把它煎一下，这样它就成了一道新菜了？

Mmm, going to have to try it.

嗯嗯，一定要尝试一下。

Lydia, are you seeing a difference between Chinese restaurants in the DC area and the LA area and the New York area?

Lydia，你发现华盛顿地区、洛杉矶地区和纽约地区的中餐馆有什么不同吗？

Is there a distinct difference with these things?

这些东西有明显的区别吗？

Or they’re just Sichuan restaurants or something, and in each of these places, they’re consistent?

或者他们只是川菜馆之类的，而且在每个地方，他们都是一致的？

I feel like restaurants or restaurant owners are very smart to see what the trend is.

我觉得餐馆或餐馆老板非常聪明，能够看到趋势是什么。

As you guys can probably see, Sichuan restaurant — if we’re talking about in the 2000s, there has not been many, and that’s probably how Dad got his reputation, being a master Sichuan chef, although he’s really a classicly trained Chinese chef, cooking all the regional cuisines.

你们可能也看到了，川菜馆 ——如果我们说的是2000年代的话，还没有很多，这可能就是爸爸获得川菜大师名声的原因，尽管他实际上是一位受过经典训练的中国厨师，烹饪所有地方菜肴。

Sam, any comment on the eggplant?

萨姆，对茄子有什么意见吗？

It’s very good.

非常好。

Fergus, Rasheed, what’s been your favorite dish so far?

Fergus、Rasheed，到目前为止你们最喜欢的菜是什么？

The eggplant has been very good, actually.

事实上，茄子非常好。

I’ve also liked — the scallions have been excellent.

我也很喜欢——大葱非常棒。

I think I’ll go with the pork.

我想我会选择猪肉。

This one, my favorite, yes.

这个，我最喜欢的，是的。

Why?

为什么？

I usually like a very subtle ma tingling sensation, usually that’s not overpowering, and also the combination with the fried is very, very good.

我通常喜欢一种非常微妙的麻刺感，通常不会太强烈，而且与油炸的结合非常非常好。

If you had to pick a favorite so far, do you have a nomination?

如果到目前为止你必须选出最喜欢的一个，你有提名吗？

Well, for me, I love the pork, and I love that soup with the fish balls.

嗯，对我来说，我喜欢猪肉，也喜欢鱼丸汤。

But for me, the reason this is such a lovely meal is that it’s such a well-planned menu.

但对我来说，这顿饭之所以如此美味，是因为它的菜单经过精心设计。

This is the thing that I think foreigners have the most difficulty with Chinese food — is how to assemble a menu.

我觉得外国人吃中餐最难的就是 ——就是如何组合菜单。

You’ve really thought about different cooking methods, different ingredients, textures, some wet, some dry.

你确实考虑过不同的烹饪方法、不同的原料、质地，有些是湿的，有些是干的。

That’s what makes it not only delicious, but also shu fu, comfortable, because we have something very sizzly and then a lovely light refreshing soup, so the pleasure of the meal is physical as well as just —

这就是为什么它不仅美味，而且舒爽、舒适，因为我们有一些非常嘶嘶作响的东西，然后是可爱的清淡清爽的汤，所以这顿饭的乐趣不仅是身体上的，也是 ——

How did you learn that, just by induction?

你是如何通过归纳得知这一点的？

You were served a lot of meals, and you ran the mental regressions?

你吃了很多饭菜，你却进行了精神回归？

Yes.

是的。

Or is there a way it can be taught to someone like you?

或者有什么方法可以教给像你这样的人吗？

Well, mainly I’ve learned through constant eating.

嗯，主要是我通过不断的饮食学到的。

I try to write about this, really, and the idea that a well-planned Chinese menu — it’s not just about delicious tastes.

我真的尝试写下这一点，以及精心策划的中式菜单 的想法—— 它不仅仅是美味。

If you think about going out for a classic French meal, you think about having lots of rich food, pudding, cheese, and feeling quite heavy afterwards.

如果你想出去吃一顿经典的法式大餐，你会想到吃了很多丰盛的食物、布丁、奶酪，然后感觉很沉重。

With a well-planned Chinese meal, you can have dozens of dishes and still feel comfortable.

一顿精心策划的中餐，可以吃几十个菜品，依然吃得舒服。

I would say start with picking out your favorites and look at, oh, what am I missing from there, and that’s a good way to go.

我想说，从挑选你最喜欢的开始，然后看看，哦，我错过了什么，这是一个很好的方法。

Your father taught you?

你父亲教你的？

I guess so.

大概吧。

I am very influenced by both great chefs at home, Mom and Dad.

我深受家里伟大厨师妈妈和爸爸的影响。

Mom is a pastry chef, Dad is a wok chef, and they trained me to have a very picky palate.

妈妈是糕点师，爸爸是炒锅师，他们把我培养成了挑剔的味觉。

I think also it’s about not repetition.

我认为这也是关于不重复。

That’s the key thing.

这是关键。

If you have a dish with one ingredient or one style, you just want to make sure the other ones are as contrasting as possible.

如果你有一道菜只有一种原料或一种风格，你只想确保其他菜品尽可能形成对比。

On the subject of Fuchsia’s writing, I think that your book is wonderfully well organized, to introduce the cuisine through 30 dishes and to use that to talk about knife work and diversity and everything else.

关于 Fuchsia 的写作主题，我认为你的书组织得非常好，通过 30 道菜介绍了美食，并用它来谈论刀工和多样性以及其他一切。

I thought it worked really well.

我认为效果非常好。

Well, thank you so much.

嗯，非常感谢。

I don’t know how.

我不知道怎么办。

It’s just instinct.

这只是本能。

I suppose what I’ve been trying to do all this time is find ways of describing the intricacies of Chinese food to make it illuminating and delightful for people who didn’t grow up with it.

我想我一直在努力做的就是找到方法来描述中国菜的复杂性，让那些没有吃过中国菜长大的人感到有启发和愉悦。

Trying to find ways — things like texture, which is a quite difficult subject in the sense that many of our texture words in English are a bit disgusting: slimy, gristly.

试图找到方法 — 诸如纹理之类的东西，这是一个相当困难的主题，因为我们英语中的许多纹理词都有点恶心：粘糊糊的、软骨状的。

Trying to write playfully and engagingly so that people can both acknowledge these unfamiliar textures, but also see how they might be delicious.

尝试写得有趣且引人入胜，以便人们既能认识这些不熟悉的质地，又能看到它们的美味。

When you worked for BBC World Service, you learned how to write then?

当您在 BBC World Service 工作时，您学会了如何写作？

Or before?

还是之前？

Well, I suppose I’ve always written.

嗯，我想我一直在写作。

I had a certain training for how to think about language, and try to be very fair, and think how it will be understood in different cultures.

我接受过关于如何思考语言的一定训练，并努力做到非常公平，并思考如何在不同的文化中理解它。

I think more of it is just practice, just writing, having a notebook, writing your impressions.

我认为更多的是练习，只是写作，有一个笔记本，写下你的印象。

It’s a craft that you develop through use.

这是一种通过使用而发展起来的手艺。

What did your parents do?

你的父母做了什么？

My mother taught English as a foreign language.

我母亲教英语作为外语。

She had a huge food influence on me.

她对我的饮食影响很大。

She’s a great cook, and we always had lots of foreign friends in our home, so I had a very unusual gastronomic upbringing.

她是一位很棒的厨师，而且我们家里总是有很多外国朋友，所以我有一个非常不寻常的美食成长环境。

My father was in the first generation of IT people.

我父亲是第一代IT人。

There’s a bit of anxiety I get when I go to a new Chinese restaurant because I feel like when you want the good food, you have to perform, you have to perform yourself.

当我去一家新开的中餐馆时，我会感到有点焦虑，因为我觉得当你想要美食时，你必须表现出来，你必须表现出自己。

I say, “Laoban 老板.

我说：老板老板。

I’m here to actually consume the correct food.”

我来这里实际上是为了吃正确的食物。”

Well, without the language, I suppose that one of the best ways is to look at what other people are eating, but it is difficult.

好吧，如果没有语言，我认为最好的方法之一就是看看其他人在吃什么，但这很困难。

Even when I go to China and I order for a group in good Mandarin, knowledgeably, and I know the names of the dishes, it so often happens that the waiter — if I’m with foreigners — he’ll say, “Oh, they can’t possibly eat that.”

即使我去中国，用一口流利的普通话为一群人点菜，而且我知道菜名，服务员​​也常常会说：“哦，他们不可能吃这个。”

Exactly.

确切地。

There’s this assumption that foreigners won’t be able to handle certain foods.

有一种假设认为外国人无法处理某些食物。

I’ve sometimes had to have an argument and just say, “Look, we will eat it.”

有时我不得不争论，然后说：“看，我们会吃掉它。”

Same here.

同样在这里。

We have gotten around proving that we can eat sea cucumbers and stuff on many occasions.

我们已经在很多场合证明了我们可以吃海参之类的东西。

It’s quite understandable because I think a lot of foreigners have a habit of ordering something that they can’t handle, and then being rude and obnoxious and just complaining.

这是可以理解的，因为我认为很多外国人都有点一些他们无法处理的东西的习惯，然后表现得粗鲁、令人讨厌，然后只是抱怨。

They think that there’s a bone in the chicken, so that’s a problem.

他们认为鸡里有骨头，所以这是一个问题。

It’s not a problem; it’s meant to be like that.

这不是问题；本来就是这样的。

I think that Chinese waiting staff, particularly in the West but also in China, are a little wary of upsetting foreigners, and also, they just want people to have a nice time.

我认为中国的服务员，尤其是在西方，而且在中国，对惹恼外国人有些警惕，而且，他们只是希望人们度过愉快的时光。

What is it then that you can’t eat?

那到底是什么东西不能吃呢？

Put aside the illegal, where you just say, “No, I’m not going to have that.”

抛开非法的，你只需说：“不，我不会那样做。”

No, I will eat everything.

不，我会把所有的东西都吃掉。

You will eat everything.

你会吃掉一切。

Well, I did in Yunnan, actually.

嗯，其实我在云南也做过。

There’s a very special dish in one particular region, which is raw pork, sort of tartar pork, chunky — shengpi 生皮, dali shengpi 大理生皮 — chunky.

某个地区有一道很特别的菜，那就是生猪肉，有点鞑靼肉，厚厚的——生皮，大理生皮大理生皮——厚厚的。

I ate that because local people rave about it all the time.

我吃了它，因为当地人一直对它赞不绝口。

I was aware that there were health issues with eating raw pork, but I really wanted to try it, so I had it with some local friends.

我知道吃生猪肉有健康问题，但我真的很想尝试一下，所以我和一些当地的朋友一起吃了。

It was really delicious, but I had this terrible panic afterwards, and I probably wouldn’t do that again.

它真的很美味，但事后我感到非常恐慌，我可能不会再这样做了。

You only live once.

你只活一次。

Why aren’t there more raw dishes in Chinese food overall?

为什么中国菜中没有更多的生菜？

Well, historical prejudice.

好吧，历史偏见。

In ancient China, the Chinese defined themselves as people who cooked food, and barbarians beyond the borders of the empire ate raw food.

在古代中国，中国人把自己定义为熟食之人，帝国之外的野蛮人则吃生食。

There is a very ancient idea going back to The Book of Rites, Liji, one of the classic texts, that civilization began when people learned how to harness fire to cook their food.

有一个非常古老的观念可以追溯到经典著作之一《礼记·礼记》，即文明始于人们学会如何利用火来烹饪食物。

They left behind the era of drinking blood and eating feathers and having all the diseases from raw foods.

他们告别了喝血、吃羽毛、生食带来各种疾病的时代。

I spent about three months in Dali last year, and I was offered a lot of raw pork, and I never took it.

去年我在大理呆了大约三个月，有人给我很多生猪肉，我从来没有接受过。

Right.

正确的。

Probably very sensible.

大概是非常理智的吧。

It was very nice.

非常好。

It was a bit like a steak tartar.

它有点像鞑靼牛排。

But you eat raw meat in the US?

但你在美国吃生肉吗？

I would eat raw beef, sure.

当然，我会吃生牛肉。

Pork, I don’t know.

猪肉，我不知道。

Like in Germany — I don’t know if it’s a certain region — they have Mett, which is raw pork.

就像德国 —— 不知道是不是某个地区 —— 他们有Mett，就是生猪肉。

When you eat this, there are all kinds of rules and regulations for the temperature which it’s kept at and how it’s served and so on.

当你吃这个的时候，它的保存温度和食用方式等等都有各种各样的规则和规定。

Whereas in Dali, it was very, very easy.

而在大理，这非常非常容易。

The fact is that local people of this particular group eat it all the time.

事实上，这个特定群体的当地人一直都在吃它。

I was asking people if they had any problems, and most people said, “Oh, it’s fine, they check the pork.”

我问人们是否有任何问题，大多数人说，“哦，没关系，他们检查猪肉。”

When and where is China most effective as a street food country?

中国作为街头小吃国家何时何地最有效？

And when isn’t it?

什么时候不是呢？

I don’t eat much street food when I’m in China.

我在中国的时候不怎么吃街头小吃。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

But I might, say, in Malaysia.

但我可能会说，在马来西亚。

The restaurant food is so good, and I’ve never found the street food to be better, even though it can be very good.

餐厅的食物非常好，我从来没有发现街头食物更好，尽管它可能非常好。

Whereas, let’s say, in Malaysia, I might find street food, on average, to be better than restaurant food.

然而，假设在马来西亚，平均而言，我可能会发现街头小吃比餐厅食物更好。

Is there anywhere in China where street food is the way to go?

中国有什么地方可以吃街头小吃吗？

Well yes, in the north.

嗯，是的，在北方。

I went to Kaifeng, the old Song Dynasty northern capital.

我去了宋代北都开封。

This is some years ago, but they have the most incredible night market with all kinds of food.

这是几年前的事了，但他们有最令人难以置信的夜市，有各种各样的食物。

That was just amazing and delicious.

那真是太棒了而且美味。

I think the problem is that with China’s modernization, there’s been this big effort to clean up the streets, and they’ve seen street food as being old fashioned and something undesirable.

我认为问题在于，随着中国的现代化，人们付出了巨大的努力来清理街道，而他们认为街头小吃是过时的、不可取的。

Dan, do you have a view on this?

丹，你对此有什么看法吗？

Basically, anywhere with a night market I think is reliably the places with great street food, especially these nice little barbecues and noodles.

基本上，我认为任何有夜市的地方都是有美味街头小吃的地方，尤其是这些美味的小烧烤和面条。

I echo Fuchsia here at that.

我在这里赞同紫红色。

Shanghai, I believe, used to have, actually, quite a nice street food life, and then they cleaned all of that up, and I think they maybe have been borderline successful in driving that out.

我相信，上海实际上曾经拥有相当不错的街头小吃生活，然后他们清理了所有这些，我认为他们在消除这种情况方面可能已经取得了成功。

Sometimes what they do is, they bring street food into an area, a bit like the Singaporean Hawker Center idea.

有时他们所做的是将街头小吃带到一个地区，有点像新加坡小贩中心的想法。

The problem is that they’re not individual traders anymore.

问题是他们不再是个体交易者了。

They’re just people working for someone else, and it’s not the really good street food.

他们只是为别人工作的人，并不是真正美味的街头小吃。

Lydia, what do we have here?

莉迪亚，我们这里有什么？

I think we missed our seafood prawn with sticky rice.

我想我们错过了海鲜虾糯米。

That’s a dish that everyone took one, and it’s now gone, so that’s a very typical full-baked cuisine.

那是一道大家都拿过的菜，现在已经没有了，所以这是一道非常典型的全焗菜。

We like to use pork as a filling, but for today’s variety, that switched to crab and seafood, coated with sticky rice, steamed and just finished up with a beautiful glaze.

我们喜欢用猪肉作为馅料，但今天的品种，改用螃蟹和海鲜，涂上糯米，蒸熟，最后涂上漂亮的釉料。

Amazing knife work.

惊人的刀工。

Look at that.

看看那个。

Yes, it is.

是的。

They’re cut like that, and they’re not falling apart.

它们就这样被切割，并且不会散开。

They’re all staying in these lovely fronds.

它们都住在这些可爱的叶子里。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

No episode of Conversations with Tyler would be complete without implication or understanding that everything comes back to economics.

如果没有暗示或理解一切都回到了经济学，《与泰勒对话》的任何一集都是不完整的。

What can an economist learn from eating more Chinese food?

经济学家可以从多吃中国菜中学到什么？

You’re asking me?

你在问我吗？

Either, anybody.

要么，任何人。

I have no idea.

我不知道。

(A) Competition works.

（一）竞赛作品。

(B) Adam Smith said division of labor is limited by the extent of the market.

(B) 亚当·斯密说，分工受到市场范围的限制。

So, as Chinese became the №1 group coming to the United States, we started getting a lot of regional cuisines.

因此，随着中国人成为来到美国的第一大群体，我们开始接触到很多地方美食。

But also look for places that are not too easy to get to, not frequented by too many tourists, and have grumpy diners and abusive staff because there’s a selection effect.

但也要寻找不太容易到达、游客较少、食客脾气暴躁和工作人员粗暴的地方，因为存在选择效应。

Trade promotes globalization.

贸易促进全球化。

Sichuan food is slightly easier to export, as Fuchsia said, given the chilies and the peppercorns.

正如 Fuchsia 所说，考虑到辣椒和花椒，四川食品的出口稍微容易一些。

That’s why it’s really easy to have that standardized across the world.

这就是为什么在世界范围内很容易实现标准化的原因。

When Fuchsia mentioned that the willingness for the government to try to standardize cuisine, did it really work?

当 Fuchsia 提到政府愿意尝试标准化美食时，这真的有效吗？

Because I see this ability of the individual to design the menu themselves.

因为我看到了个人自己设计菜单的能力。

It’s a very big economic concept there.

这是一个非常大的经济概念。

Slightly different question for Fuchsia.

Fuchsia 的问题略有不同。

I’m wondering — you write in your book about how the West — the Anglos here in particular — had this experience with Chinese food coming in the postwar period when, essentially, what you end up getting in a takeaway is not real, proper Chinese food.

我想知道 — 你在书中写到西方 —尤其是这里的盎格鲁人 — 在战后时期对中餐有这样的经历，从本质上讲，你最终在外卖中吃到的并不是真正的、正宗的中餐。

Do you have a sense of other regions, other continents of the world?

你对世界其他地区、其他大陆有了解吗？

Have they had a similar experience with Chinese food coming there?

他们来这里吃中餐有类似的经历吗？

Or maybe some haven’t even had it yet?

或者也许有些人还没有拥有它？

Oh, I think yes.

哦，我想是的。

I think that the Cantonese simplified model is in many places but with slight variations.

我认为粤语简化模式在很多地方都有，但略有不同。

Like in Sweden, they have something called Four Little Dishes, which is a standard menu of Chinese takeaway food.

就像在瑞典，他们有一个叫“四小菜”的东西，这是中餐外卖的标准菜单。

It seems to have been a blueprint that worked very well all over the place, with sweet tastes and fried foods with variations.

这似乎是一个在所有地方都运作良好的蓝图，有甜味和变化多样的油炸食品。

Both of those are very good, but they’re very different.

两者都很好，但又很不同。

They don’t feel to me like quite Chinese food.

我觉得它们不太像中国菜。

But I would recommend their chifas, which you even can get in Northern Virginia, though it’s much better in Peru.

但我会推荐他们的 chifa，你甚至可以在北弗吉尼亚州买到，尽管在秘鲁更好。

Oh, really?

哦真的吗？

They’re rice dishes with Chinese elements in them, is the way I would think about them.

它们是带有中国元素的米饭，这是我对它们的看法。

I spent some time in Barcelona this summer, and I found, first of all, Barcelona to be my favorite city for food in Europe, in part because I think it has a very great respect for Asian cuisine.

今年夏天我在巴塞罗那呆了一段时间，首先我发现巴塞罗那是我最喜欢的欧洲美食城市，部分原因是我认为它非常尊重亚洲美食。

This was the first European country I’ve seen where there were a lot of Spanish chefs making Chinese food, Spanish chefs making Japanese food, and I thought that was quite good.

这是我见到的第一个欧洲国家，有很多西班牙厨师做中餐，西班牙厨师做日本菜，我觉得那很好。

I haven’t done a survey, so I have no idea, but —

我没有做过调查，所以我不知道，但是 ——

If somewhere were great, you would’ve been pulled to it, right?

如果某个地方很棒，你就会被吸引去那里，对吗？

I hope so.

我希望如此。

I’m spoiled because I eat a lot in China, so I don’t feel the need to go and eat Chinese food everywhere else.

我被宠坏了，因为我在中国吃得很多，所以我觉得没有必要去其他地方吃中国菜。

I feel Singapore has really good Chinese food because of the Chinese population.

我觉得新加坡的中餐真的很好吃，因为有华人。

Yes, London has great Chinese food, not just the Chinatown that has been there for maybe decades, but also the newer where I like to call it modern Chinese.

是的，伦敦有很棒的中餐，不仅是已经存在了几十年的唐人街，还有我喜欢称之为现代中餐的新唐人街。

We talk about Chef Wong, Andy Wong, really doing an excellent idea with elevated Chinese foods being a tasting menu.

我们谈论黄厨师安迪黄，他确实做了一个很棒的主意，将高级中餐作为品尝菜单。

I think one problem — and this maybe comes back to economics again — but in England, for example, I think now the door has opened to massive public interest in regional Chinese food, and people are really open to trying now eating Sichuan, Xi’an food and so on.

我认为有一个问题——“这可能会再次回到经济学上”——“但在英国，例如，我认为现在公众对中国地方美食的兴趣已经打开，人们真的愿意尝试吃四川菜、西安菜等。

I find that the Chinese food in Madrid is actually even better than Barcelona.

我发现马德里的中餐其实比巴塞罗那还要好。

You spend much time in Madrid, Dan?

丹，你在马德里待了很长时间？

No.

不。

Because even there, you get very obscure local cuisine from China in Madrid.

因为即使在那里，你也能在马德里吃到来自中国的非常鲜为人知的当地美食。

Whereas in Barcelona, it’s not as .

而在巴塞罗那，情况却并非如此。

.

。

.

。

you can’t get the obscurities as much.

你不可能得到那么多晦涩难懂的东西。

This book, other books you’ve written — what’s the hardest thing for you about writing a book?

这本书，以及你写过的其他书—— 写书对你来说最困难的事情是什么？

Well, I found this a lot harder than writing a cookbook.

嗯，我发现这比写一本食谱要难得多。

Why?

为什么？

Because a cookbook has a slightly obvious structure.

因为食谱的结构稍微明显。

Unless you are going to do something really radical, you have an introduction.

除非你要做一些非常激进的事情，否则你会有一个介绍。

You can go into basic techniques and ingredients.

您可以了解基本技术和成分。

Then you have recipes, often grouped by ingredient, and each recipe has a headnote.

然后你就有食谱，通常按成分分组，每个食谱都有一个注释。

By now, I’ve done a few cookbooks.

到目前为止，我已经写了几本食谱。

It’s fairly straightforward.

这相当简单。

What’s your most unusual successful work habit?

你最不寻常的成功工作习惯是什么？

Getting on a train.

上火车。

COWEN: What do you do then?

考恩：那你怎么办？

Through China?

通过中国？

Or just you get on a British train and you write?

或者只是你登上英国火车就开始写作？

Or you get on a British train and you cook?

或者你登上英国火车并做饭？

DUNLOP: If I have a writing block, and I’m frustrated, and I feel I can’t possibly do it, then I just give up.

邓洛普：如果我有写作障碍，并且感到沮丧，并且觉得自己不可能做到，那么我就会放弃。

If I get moving and get on a train, then for some reason, my mind starts loosening up, and I have a breakthrough.

如果我开始行动并登上火车，那么出于某种原因，我的思想开始放松，我就有了突破。

Also, sitting in cafes, but just change of scene.

另外，坐在咖啡馆里，只是换个场景。

So, moving and not moving are your two successful habits.

所以，动和不动是你的两个成功的习惯。

No, getting away from being the solitary writer at your computer or at your desk, and that breaks the deadlock.

不，摆脱在电脑或办公桌前独自写作的状态，就能打破僵局。

I have to say, I wouldn’t put myself up as a model of effective and efficient working.

我不得不说，我不会把自己当作有效和高效工作的典范。

I want to say, you finished your book on time.

我想说，你按时完成了你的书。

I remember meeting you last year in London.

我记得去年在伦敦见过你。

You said you were writing this book, and you have a very strict deadline, and look at where we are.

你说你正在写这本书，并且有一个非常严格的截止日期，看看我们现在的情况。

I did have the advantage of the global pandemic, which meant that I wasn’t racing around the world, that I had to stay home.

我确实有全球大流行的优势，这意味着我不能在世界各地比赛，我必须呆在家里。

Other than China, now that it’s quite easy to travel, where else do you want to go for food?

除了中国，现在出行已经很方便了，你还想去哪里吃东西呢？

Where do I want to go for food?

我想去哪里吃饭？

I’d like to go back to Japan.

我想回日本。

People sometimes think I know about Asian food, and I really don’t because I’ve been so concentrated on China, and I went to Japan for the first time in 2018.

人们有时认为我了解亚洲美食，但我真的不了解，因为我一直专注于中国，而且我在 2018 年第一次去了日本。

I was there a few weeks ago.

几周前我去过那里。

I had one Chinese meal for breakfast.

我早餐吃了一顿中餐。

It was quite good.

非常好。

Just amazing sushi anywhere, without even looking for it.

任何地方都有令人惊叹的寿司，甚至不需要寻找它。

Some people would say that Japan now has the best French cooking, some of the best Italian cooking.

有人会说日本现在有最好的法国菜，还有一些最好的意大利菜。

Now, I’m skeptical that they can have the best Chinese cooking, but what do you think?

现在，我怀疑他们是否能做出最好的中国菜，但你觉得呢？

I don’t think they do.

我不认为他们这样做。

I’ve been to Michelin-starred Chinese restaurants in Tokyo.

我去过东京的米其林星级中餐馆。

They’re very good.

他们非常好。

They deserve their stars, but I think, say, compared to Chengdu or somewhere, they’d only be middling quality among the good restaurants.

他们配得上星级，但我认为，与成都或其他地方相比，他们在好餐厅中的质量只是中等。

Is it because there are no grumpy diners?

是因为没有脾气暴躁的食客吗？

They’re cooking for Michelin diners who do have good taste, but it’s a little rarefied, and at the visceral level, there’s just something a bit missing, I found.

他们为米其林食客做饭，这些食客确实有很好的品味，但有点稀薄，而且我发现，在内心层面上，只是缺少了一些东西。

This is a very superficial impression because I wasn’t there for very long, but it seemed to me that Japan also has the old school Chinatown cooking and newer cooking.

这是一个非常肤浅的印象，因为我在那里待的时间不长，但在我看来，日本也有老式唐人街烹饪和新式烹饪。

Yokohama in particular.

尤其是横滨。

Yes.

是的。

One meal that I wrote about in this book — the stir fry chapter.

我在本书中写到的一顿饭——炒菜章节。

I went to one small Chinese modern restaurant where the Chinese technique and the sensibility and aesthetics were very Chinese, and it was absolutely superb.

我去了一家小型的中式现代餐厅，中国的技术、感性和审美都非常中国，绝对是一流的。

That was just a little snapshot, but it was a very interesting Chinese food cooked in and served at a bar like a sushi counter, actually.

这只是一个小快照，但实际上这是一种非常有趣的中餐，是在像寿司柜台一样的酒吧里烹制和供应的。

Lydia, where do you think of going to for food?

莉迪亚，你想去哪里吃饭？

Obviously, there’s maybe other reasons to travel.

显然，旅行可能还有其他原因。

Oh my god.

我的天啊。

Well, I’m dying to go to Peru for the food, but also for the nature thing, Machu Picchu.

好吧，我很想去秘鲁寻找美食，但也很想去自然风光，马丘比丘。

Dan?

担？

I would say Southeast Asia for me.

我会说东南亚。

I guess maybe more the street food that I find quite thrilling.

我想也许更多的是我觉得相当令人兴奋的街头小吃。

I’ve had quite a lot of refined Chinese food.

我吃过很多精致的中国菜。

Now, it’s a street food for me.

现在，它对我来说是一种街头小吃。

I have not spent time in Mexico at all, and I think that Mexico is hugely exciting.

我根本没有在墨西哥待过，但我认为墨西哥非常令人兴奋。

Rural Mexico in particular is one of my all-time favorites.

墨西哥乡村尤其是我一直以来的最爱之一。

For me, it’s on a par with China.

对我来说，它与中国不相上下。

I love Mexico City.

我爱墨西哥城。

It’s incredible, but just side-of-the-road dishes in small towns or on the edge of mid-size towns — for me, that’s the best food in Mexico.

这太不可思议了，但只是小城镇或中型城镇边缘的路边菜肴 ——对我来说，那是墨西哥最好的食物。

I will do that in life until I can’t do it anymore.

我一生都会这样做，直到我不能再这样做为止。

I’ve been to Mexico over 30 times, and every meal is a wonder in the way that it is in China and can be in India, but not too many other places.

我去过墨西哥30多次，每顿饭都是一个奇迹，既可以在中国吃，也可以在印度吃，但在其他地方就没有太多了。

What explains that variation?

如何解释这种变化？

They pursue perfection, and in a way achieve it.

他们追求完美，并在某种程度上实现了它。

If you don’t agree with all matters of taste, pursuing perfection, in a sense, can be a negative.

如果你不同意所有的品味问题，从某种意义上来说，追求完美可能是一种消极。

If you look at these Filipino desserts, which for me are too sweet, they’re too gooey, they’re too large, too many different things piled on top of each other, but they’re quite popular.

如果你看看这些菲律宾甜点，对我来说太甜了，太粘了，太大了，太多不同的东西堆在一起，但它们很受欢迎。

There are people who love them.

有人爱他们。

I don’t think they’re wrong to love them.

我不认为他们爱他们有错。

Japan just takes every direction you can imagine and perfects it.

日本就是把你能想象到的每一个方向都采取并完善起来。

That’s a little dangerous.

这有点危险。

I’ve only been to China once, so I think I’d love to go back.

我只去过中国一次，所以我想我很想回去。

I was in Chongqing.

我当时在重庆。

I think for all the reasons you’ve just mentioned.

我认为出于你刚才提到的所有原因。

There’s an endless amount of things to discover, and seems to mind there.

有无数的东西等待发现，并且似乎很介意那里。

Well, I’ve never been to China, so that’s the obvious answer.

嗯，我从未去过中国，所以这是显而易见的答案。

I think Ethiopia is still very underrated when it comes to food.

我认为埃塞俄比亚在食品方面仍然被严重低估。

Only been there for the first time this year, and it blew me away.

今年才第一次去那里，它让我大吃一惊。

I want to go back for sure and try a lot more Ethiopian dishes.

我肯定想回去尝试更多埃塞俄比亚菜肴。

What struck you in particular?

是什么让你特别感动？

The spice combinations.

香料组合。

That was the quick answer.

这就是快速的答案。

Some of the combos are so odd, I can’t describe them properly.

有些组合太奇怪了，我无法正确描述它们。

The closest thing it reminds me of is some Peruvian spices, for example, strange in itself, or Mexican spices.

它最让我想起的是一些秘鲁香料，例如本身很奇怪的香料，或者墨西哥香料。

But that combination of spices needs a lot more exploration, I think.

但我认为这种香料的组合需要更多的探索。

Lydia, what do we have here?

莉迪亚，我们这里有什么？

We have a peach tree sap.

我们有桃树的汁液。

Speaking of, Chinese is not huge on dessert.

说起来，中国人对甜品的喜爱程度并不高。

Sometimes after a full meal of banquet, we just eat some seasonal fruit.

有时，吃完一顿丰盛的宴席后，我们就吃一些时令水果。

It’ll be a lot of specialty cutting, like cube shapes of watermelon or apples, pears, dragon fruits.

将会有很多特殊的切割，比如西瓜或苹果、梨、火龙果的立方体形状。

But today, we’re having a little tree sap.

但今天，我们有一点树液。

This is also a modern Chinese dessert.

这也是一种现代中式甜点。

Fuchsia can talk a lot more about it.

Fuchsia 可以说得更多。

It’s funny because I never saw this ingredient — peach tree sap — until the last five years or something.

这很有趣，因为我从来没有见过这种成分 —— 桃树汁 ——直到最近五年之类的。

Suddenly, it’s become incredibly trendy, and it’s often served in fairytale soups with things like silver ear mushrooms and lotus seeds, goji berries, and other of these lovely texture foods, right?

突然之间，它变得非常流行，而且它经常与银耳蘑菇、莲子、枸杞和其他这些质地可爱的食物一起出现在童话般的汤中，对吗？

And it is from the peach tree.

它来自桃树。

Yes.

是的。

How do you source it?

你如何获取它的来源？

Is there a peach tree sap business?

有桃树汁生意吗？

From the market.

来自市场。

You get it dried, and it looks like little pieces of knobbly amber, and you soak them, and then they swell up into this lovely jelly.

你把它弄干，它看起来就像小块的多节琥珀，你把它们浸泡，然后它们膨胀成这种可爱的果冻。

We are at about the end of our podcast.

我们的播客即将结束。

I would just like to thank everyone for participating.

我只想感谢大家的参与。

Thank Lydia Chang, her father Peter, the entire staff at Mama Chang.

感谢Lydia Chang、她的父亲Peter、Mama Chang 的全体员工。

They always treat me wonderfully.

他们总是对我很好。

I just love them.

我就是爱他们。

I actually don’t want them to be surly to me.

其实我不想让他们对我不客气。

They’re super nice.

他们非常好。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you all.

谢谢大家。