Dry-Fried Cauliflower 干煸花菜

We’re here today to commemorate the publication of a revised and extended edition of Fuchsia’s The Food of Sichuan.

今天我们在这里庆祝紫红色的《四川美食》修订版和增补版的出版。

Fuchsia’s books on Chinese food are, in my opinion, actually among the very best, greatest books of the entire millennium.

在我看来，紫红色有关中国美食的书籍实际上是整个千禧年最好、最伟大的书籍之一。

They are storehouses of learning about food, culture, history, education, training, everything possible.

它们是学习食物、文化、历史、教育、培训以及一切可能的知识的宝库。

They are beautifully written.

它们写得很漂亮。

The food in them is delicious.

他们里面的食物很美味。

They are fun to read.

它们读起来很有趣。

The pictures and images are amazing.

图片和图像令人惊叹。

I would like to tell you a little bit about Mama Chang and the concept behind it.

我想向您介绍一下张妈妈及其背后的理念。

Everybody knows Dad is professionally trained, and everybody has this idea of Peter Chang restaurants.

每个人都知道爸爸受过专业训练，每个人都有张彼得张餐馆的想法。

But when we started working on this concept, we wanted to focus really on the home-style cooking.

但当我们开始研究这个概念时，我们想真正专注于家庭式烹饪。

It’s mainly based on Sichuanese food, is it?

主要以川菜为主吧？

Or inspirations from all over China?

还是来自中国各地的灵感？

All over China.

遍布中国。

Our hometown is actually in the Hubei province, and some of the dishes have the inspiration from Hunan as well.

我们的家乡其实在湖北省，有些菜肴的灵感也来自湖南。

So Hunan, Hubei, and Sichuan.

那么湖南、湖北、四川。

And your customers — are a lot of them Chinese, or are most of them not Chinese?

你的客户——其中很多是中国人，还是大多数不是中国人？

Sixty percent Chinese, yeah.

百分之六十是中国人，是的。

That’s a good advertisement, that it makes people taste home.

这是一个很好的广告，它让人们有家的味道。

I lower that number.

我降低了这个数字。

Fuchsia, maybe you could just introduce how you think about Chinese food and going out to a restaurant with a group of nine people, as we have here.

Fuchsia，也许你可以介绍一下你对中餐以及和九个人一起去餐馆的看法，就像我们在这里一样。

How do you approach that?

你如何处理这个问题？

With great appetite.

胃口很大。

I think one of the things about Chinese food is, because often you eat family-style, so with a big group, it enables you to taste a good variety of dishes.

我认为中国菜的一个特点是，因为你经常吃家庭式的食物，所以一大群人一起，可以让你品尝到各种各样的菜肴。

Mmm.

嗯。

First dish has arrived.

第一道菜已经到了。

Our cauliflower is here.

我们的花椰菜来了。

Lydia and Fuchsia, if you could speak to it, and also pass it around, and we can all start eating.

莉迪亚和紫红色，如果你能和它说话，并把它传给大家，我们就可以开始吃饭了。

Where we’re starting today is with the dry fried cauliflower, Tyler’s most favorite.

今天我们从干炸花椰菜开始，这是泰勒最喜欢的。

Your family’s most favorite.

你家人最喜欢的。

Is it gan bian?

是干扁吗？

Gan bian hua cai 干煸花菜.

干煸花菜。

Yeah, gan bian is a particularly Sichuanese cooking method where you toss an ingredient in the dry wok without much on, and then you add oil and seasonings later.

是的，干扁是一种特别的四川烹饪方法，你把原料扔进干锅里，不加太多，然后加入油和调味料。

And you have the greeneries, too.

你也有绿色植物。

Yeah.

是的。

Cilantro, green onion with just a lot of seasonings.

香菜、葱加很多调味料。

The flavors.

味道。

And cauliflower has become so trendy in China in the last few years.

过去几年，花椰菜在中国变得非常流行。

For some reason —

由于某种原因——

In the US as well.

在美国也是如此。

Really?

真的吗？

Yes.

是的。

Every Chinese restaurant.

每家中餐馆。

Are they mashing it and grinding it and making it into mashed potatoes and rice there, too?

他们也在那里把它捣碎、磨碎，然后做成土豆泥和米饭吗？

It’s like a cauliflower crust, but as dough?

它就像花椰菜外壳，但作为面团？

Or just as a vegetable?

或者只是作为蔬菜？

Like this.

像这样。

There’s one dish that appears on practically every menu, you ji hua cai 有机花菜, which means organic cauliflower.

几乎每个菜单上都会出现一道菜，有机花菜，意思是有机花椰菜。

I very much doubt that it’s all organic, but it’s always tossed with these spicy seasonings, or it’s sometimes served in a gan guo 干锅, like a black clay pot or an iron pot.

我非常怀疑它们都是有机的，但它总是撒上这些辛辣的调味料，或者有时会放在干锅里，比如黑陶罐或铁锅。

The cooking is a little bit different.

烹饪方法有点不同。

I think what they do in China is to do a stir-fry, or with maybe some source of protein, like ham or bacon.

我认为他们在中国做的是炒菜，或者可能加入一些蛋白质来源，比如火腿或培根。

But our way of doing it — it’s lightly buttered, deep-fried first, and then we fry it in the wok again to add the seasonings.

但我们的做法是，先涂少许黄油，油炸，然后再入锅煎，加入调味料。

And what’s amazing now is that if you actually shop in an Asian grocery store in the US, you’re going to see something that’s called Chinese cauliflower, which actually has less floret and more stem, the way Chinese like it.

现在令人惊奇的是，如果你真的在美国的一家亚洲杂货店购物，你会看到一种叫做中国花椰菜的东西，它实际上有更少的小花和更多的茎，就像中国人喜欢的那样。

Yes.

是的。

It’s looser, isn’t it?

比较宽松，不是吗？

It’s a different vegetable.

这是一种不同的蔬菜。

It is.

这是。

But ironically it’s not really a Chinese cauliflower, but it just so happens that it’s what we like.

但讽刺的是，它并不是真正的中国花椰菜，但它恰好是我们喜欢的。

Marketing, marketing.

营销，营销。

I work in restaurants with a very heavy Asian accent, and so we embrace it fully and buy just those cauliflower.

我在亚洲口音很重的餐馆工作，所以我们完全接受它并只买那些花椰菜。

We have to drive out all the way, right, Seng?

我们必须一路开车出去，对吧，Seng？

Mm-hmm .

嗯嗯。

To get this cauliflower at Good Fortune or the Chinese supermarkets.

在好运或中国超市可以买到这种花椰菜。

Yeah.

是的。

I always ran into that, and I was like, “Why is it Chinese?

我总是遇到这个问题，我就想：“为什么是中文？

I never heard of Chinese cauliflower.” So I guess someone’s just marketing the term using that, yeah.

我从来没有听说过中国花椰菜。”所以我猜有人只是用这个词来营销这个词，是的。

Now, Fuchsia, you and I — we did our last podcast about three years ago, I think, almost to the day.

现在，Fuchsia，你和我——我们上一次播客是在大约三年前，我想，几乎到了今天。

Since then, you’ve been back to China plenty.

从那时起，你就经常回中国了。

How has food in Chengdu changed, and in China more generally?

成都乃至中国的饮食发生了怎样的变化？

Because three years is a long time in China.

因为三年对于中国来说是很长的一段时间。

A lot happens, right?

很多事情发生了，对吧？

Yes.

是的。

What are the differences?

有什么区别？

Well, I would say the craze for hot pot carries unabated.

嗯，我想说，对火锅的热潮有增无减。

Hot pot and spicy skewers and —

火锅和麻辣串还有——

This is a negative to me.

这对我来说是负面的。

Am I wrong to think that?

我这样想有错吗？

I like them, but they’re all a bit the same unless you go to a very, very good one.

我喜欢它们，但它们都有点相似，除非你去的是非常非常好的。

For me, it’s a negative.

对我来说，这是负面的。

I think hot pot is really fun once in a while, but it’s sort of cook-your-own-dinner stuff, and it doesn’t really showcase the myriad of different cooking techniques.

我觉得火锅偶尔真的很有趣，但它有点像自己做饭的东西，它并没有真正展示无数不同的烹饪技巧。

In a way, it’s just one narrow aspect of Chinese cuisine.

在某种程度上，这只是中国菜的一个狭隘的方面。

What we’re coming up next is some Wuhan street snacks.

接下来我们要介绍的就是一些武汉街头小吃。

Rè gān miàn, the Wuhan sesame noodles.

Rè gān miàn，武汉芝麻面。

and we have san xian doupi, the triple-layer doupi.

我们还有三鲜斗皮，即三层斗皮。

This is really exciting.

这真的很令人兴奋。

As per your request.

根据您的要求。

Yeah, because I went to Wuhan in 1992 on my first trip to China, and I haven’t been back since.

是的，因为 1992 年我第一次去中国就去了武汉，从那以后我就没有回来过。

I remember tasting particularly the doupi.

我记得特别品尝了豆皮。

So the skin is .

所以皮肤是。

.

。

.

。

Talk me through the dish.

跟我讲讲这道菜。

It’s mung bean.

这是绿豆。

So that’s the dou, the bean.

这就是豆。

Yeah.

是的。

It’s bean skin, literally.

从字面上看，它是豆皮。

Uh huh .

嗯嗯。

With eggs.

有鸡蛋。

And it’s stuffed with fried rice, right?

而且里面塞满了炒饭，对吧？

With little nuggets of —

带着一些小金块——

Sticky.

粘性的。

Sticky rice.

糯米。

Ooh, exciting.

哦，令人兴奋。

The triple layer indicates one layer of the skin, one layer of the rice, and then also there’s a mince pork situation going on.

三层是指一层皮，一层米，还有一层肉末的情况。

I haven’t seen that dish anywhere since, so more than 20 years.

从那以后我就再没有在任何地方见过这道菜了，二十多年了。

And the rè gān miàn, hot dry noodles, is very famous, probably the most famous — with doupi — of Wuhan snacks, right?

还有热干面，非常有名，可能是武汉小吃中最著名的——豆皮，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

And this is .

这是。

.

。

.

。

Is it made with jian shui mian (碱水面)?

是用碱水面做的吗？

We make our noodles here in-house.

我们在这里自制面条。

We couldn’t find the right consistency for the noodle.

我们找不到合适的面条稠度。

Again, this is not going to be as close as what we get in Wuhan, but because of the quality we have of noodles, we’re able to make them in-house.

同样，这不会像我们在武汉得到的那么接近，但由于我们面条的质量，我们能够在内部制作它们。

And this is with pickled beans —

这是用腌豆子做的——

Yes.

是的。

— or fresh beans?

——还是新鲜豆子？

Yan jiang dou (腌豇豆).

燕江豆（腌豇豆）。

Yeah, so this is with salted yard-long beans.

是的，这是用咸码长的豆子做的。

Mmm.

嗯。

Very good, isn’t it?

很好，不是吗？

Lydia, what would you say characterizes the food of Wuhan?

Lydia，你觉得武汉的食物有什么特点？

If someone has never been to Wuhan, and you had to tell them on a postcard what it’s about?

如果有人从未去过武汉，你必须在明信片上告诉他武汉的情况吗？

It’s a lot of fresh river fish.

这是很多新鲜的河鱼。

We are by the Yangtze River, so a lot of really fresh produce, river fish, and also the flavor.

我们在长江边，所以有很多非常新鲜的农产品，河鱼，还有味道。

We don’t use Sichuan peppercorn.

我们不用四川花椒。

Sichuan peppercorn is from Sichuan, typically.

四川花椒典型地来自四川。

But now I want to say the cuisine in China is so fluid and translucent, you can almost eat dumplings anywhere in the south, and you can eat Sichuan anywhere.

但现在我想说中国的美食是如此的流畅和透亮，几乎在南方任何地方都可以吃到饺子，在任何地方都可以吃到四川。

The further north you go, you can eat Sichuan, too.

再往北走，也能吃到川菜。

Is that hong cai tai?

那是鸿彩泰吗？

The winter vegetable?

冬天的蔬菜？

Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

That is one of my favorite vegetables in the whole world.

那是全世界我最喜欢的蔬菜之一。

That’s red or purple rape shoots, right?

那是红色或紫色的油菜芽，对吗？

And just in the winter.

而且就在冬天。

They are stir-fried, and they have a hint of bitterness, and they are juicy, and they are just marvelously delicious.

炒起来有一丝苦味，而且多汁，简直是美味极了。

Yeah.

是的。

There’s a layer of sort of sauced pork.

有一层酱猪肉。

Sticky rice shepherd’s pie.

糯米牧羊人馅饼。

And then sticky rice instead of potato, and the golden bean skin instead of maybe the layer of grated cheese and grill it on top.

然后用糯米代替土豆，用金黄的豆皮代替也许是一层磨碎的奶酪，然后在上面烤。

You learned Chinese food in China, of course, much of it in Sichuan province, Hunan province.

你在中国学过中国菜，当然，大部分是在四川省、湖南省。

As Chinese teach food, how is the method of education and training different from, say, Great Britain or the United States?

中国人教食物，教育培训的方式和英国、美国有什么不同？

Well, I haven’t been to culinary school in Great Britain or the United States, so I’m not sure.

嗯，我没有去过英国或美国的烹饪学校，所以我不确定。

You’ve been to school in these countries.

您曾在这些国家上过学。

The first thing is that when you go to cooking school, you are learning the building blocks of a cuisine, which is like the grammar of a language.

首先，当你去烹饪学校时，你正在学习烹饪的基本要素，就像语言的语法一样。

So the basic components, the basic processes and flavors, which you then put together to make a multitude of dishes.

所以基本的成分、基本的过程和口味，然后你把它们放在一起制作出多种菜肴。

I actually have a story to share about Dad’s cutting knife.

其实我有一个关于爸爸切刀的故事要分享。

He said when he first started learning, in school, there’s only limited time, but he wants to really excel at it.

他说，当他刚开始学习时，在学校时间有限，但他想真正擅长。

So he returned back to the dorm, started cutting, using cleaver to cut newspaper to practice.

于是他回到宿舍，开始剪纸，用切菜刀剪报纸练习。

Really?

真的吗？

CHANG: Yeah.

张：是的。

There, they would spend a lot of time outside of school to be able to cut better, and it doesn’t matter what you cut as long as you are cutting as practice.

在那里，他们会在校外花很多时间来剪得更好，只要你在练习剪，剪什么并不重要。

Well, I remember, actually, my classmates at the cooking school.

嗯，实际上我记得我在烹饪学校的同学。

A lot of them were actually living in, and sometimes they would invite me up to the dormitories on our lunch break.

他们中的很多人实际上都住在宿舍里，有时他们会在午休时邀请我去宿舍。

And they would be practicing vegetable carving and dumpling shaping and so on.

他们还会练习切菜、包饺子等。

I would love to know how you got into and fell in love with Chinese cuisine generally.

我很想知道您是如何开始并爱上中国菜的。

Well, I was already a very enthusiastic eater and quite a serious cook from childhood.

嗯，我从小就已经是一个非常热心的食客和一个非常认真的厨师了。

In my teens I was reading cookbooks and cooking, particularly French patisserie.

在我十几岁的时候，我正在阅读烹饪书籍和烹饪，尤其是法式糕点。

I loved pastry-making in my teens.

我十几岁时就喜欢制作糕点。

When you visited street stalls and all these small food shops, how willing were people to open their kitchens to you and show you behind the curtain?

当你走访街头小摊和所有这些小食品店时，人们有多愿意向你打开他们的厨房并向你展示幕后的情况？

Surprisingly willing.

意外的愿意。

Just to put that in context — in the ’90s, China was really just beginning to open up.

结合上下文来看——上世纪 90 年代，中国实际上才刚刚开始开放。

So in Chengdu, this provincial capital city, there were only, I think, a couple of hundred foreigners.

所以在成都这个省会城市，我想只有几百个外国人。

We were very novel and hugely interesting to local people, just as China was very interesting to us.

我们对当地人来说非常新奇和非常有趣，就像中国对我们来说非常有趣一样。

So it’s like sandwiches.

所以它就像三明治一样。

Yeah.

是的。

Thin slices of lotus root with minced pork, is it, in the middle?

莲藕薄片，肉末，是吗，在中间？

Yes.

是的。

And then coated in batter and deep-fried, right?

然后裹上面糊然后油炸，对吗？

I don’t know how well you know American Chinese food, like what you can find in America.

我不知道你对美式中餐了解多少，就像你在美国能找到的那样。

I assume you do know it well.

我想你对此很了解。

I wanted to find out, how is it different from what you can find in England?

我想知道，它与英国的有什么不同？

Is it basically the same scene, or is it a different scene?

是基本相同的场景，还是不同的场景？

You have the old-school American Chinese food — chop suey, egg foo young — I would say were not as big in Britain.

你有老式的美式中餐——杂碎、鸡蛋仔——我想说这些在英国没有那么受欢迎。

They were in the early days, but you don’t see them anymore.

它们还处于早期，但你再也看不到它们了。

And?

和？

Well, he was very diplomatic and said that he thought it was quite a healthy and cheap meal.

嗯，他非常外交，说他认为这是一顿非常健康又便宜的饭菜。

A mixture of meat and vegetables and rice and so on.

肉、蔬菜和米饭等的混合物。

But definitely light-years away from his own style of cooking.

但与他自己的烹饪风格绝对相差甚远。

It all sounded like a variety of fish and chips.

听起来就像各种各样的鱼和薯条。

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

It’s just different, and it’s different communities and different markets and different evolution.

只是不同，有不同的社区、不同的市场和不同的演变。

And now we have, what?

现在我们有了，什么？

Coriander fish rolls?

香菜鱼卷？

That’s a Peter Chang specialty, created by him.

这是 Peter Chang 的专长，是他创造的。

Am I wrong?

我错了吗？

Created by him.

由他创造。

Tell us, is there a story?

告诉我们，有什么故事吗？

There is a lot of stories, and for the season right now, we incorporated blue Maryland crab.

有很多故事，在现在这个季节，我们加入了马里兰蓝蟹。

Today we’re taking it to a new version.

今天我们将其推出新版本。

You’re enjoying the crab roll.

你正在享受蟹卷。

Fried cilantro crab roll.

炸香菜蟹卷。

I actually have a question for Fuchsia.

我实际上有一个问题要问 Fuchsia。

When you see the rise of Chinese cuisine .

当你看到中国美食的兴起时。

.

。

.

。

I think now the Chinese cuisine itself doesn’t have a boundary between the way they cook it in China and the way they cook it in the US, American Chinese cuisine versus the authentic Chinese cuisine.

我认为现在中国菜本身在中国的烹饪方式和在美国的烹饪方式、美国的中餐和正宗的中国菜之间没有界限。

From my trips to China almost once every year, I noticed that food in China is slow to evolve, to change, as well.

从我几乎每年一次的中国之旅中，我注意到中国的食物进化、改变也很缓慢。

Yeah, I think that a cuisine is always a living form of culture that’s recreated on a daily basis.

是的，我认为美食始终是一种每天都在重新创造的活生生的文化形式。

It’s just not something static, and that’s where you trip up when you start getting hung up about notions of authenticity.

它并不是静态的东西，当你开始对真实性的概念感到困惑时，这就是你绊倒的地方。

Particularly in China, again, and Sichuan is a good example of a place with feverish competition in the restaurant business, and so many different restaurants, all chasing new ideas and new concepts.

特别是在中国，四川就是一个很好的例子，这里的餐饮业竞争非常激烈，有很多不同的餐厅，都在追逐新的想法和新的概念。

Wow.

哇。

This has a list of restaurants and dishes and snacks, and you can see from that period that it was already quite cosmopolitan, and there were quite a few dishes that were clearly from the Jiangnan region.

这里有餐厅和菜肴小吃的列表，从那个时期就可以看出，这里已经相当国际化了，有不少明显是江南地区的菜肴。

There were Western dishes, like certain pork chops and dishes with curry, which would have come, I think, from the .

有西餐，比如某些猪排和咖喱菜，我认为这些菜品可能来自……。

.

。

.

。

There were foreign missionaries living in Chengdu in early 20th century.

20世纪初，就有外国传教士居住在成都。

Lydia, the new dish?

莉迪亚，新菜？

Yes.

是的。

We have Grandma’s sticky rice bowl with crab.

我们有奶奶做的螃蟹糯米饭。

Typically, the filling varies.

通常，填充物会有所不同。

Traditionally with minced pork.

传统上用猪肉末。

Pork is heavily used in central east China.

中国中东部地区大量使用猪肉。

But again, because of crabs in season right now .

但同样，因为现在是螃蟹的季节。

.

。

.

。

It’s about where you are.

这是关于你在哪里。

The food changes.

食物发生变化。

So is it just crab, or is it crab mixed with pork?

那么到底是螃蟹，还是螃蟹和猪肉混合在一起？

Crab mixed with tofu.

螃蟹拌豆腐。

Oh, really?

哦真的吗？

Yes.

是的。

How interesting.

多么有趣啊。

And they look very pretty, all speckled with rice grains, don’t they, on the outside?

而且它们看起来很漂亮，外面都沾满了米粒，不是吗？

Lydia’s father is of a generation who, in China, lived through the Great Famine.

莉迪亚的父亲是中国经历过大饥荒的一代人。

Indeed, it wasn’t until he went to cooking school as a young man that he was exposed to food in abundance.

事实上，直到他年轻时去烹饪学校，他才接触到丰富的食物。

There were many things he had never tasted before because the farm they came from in the country — it was such deprivation.

有很多东西他以前从未尝过，因为它们来自乡下的农场——实在是太匮乏了。

How has that experience for so many chefs of this generation informed the cooking of China?

这一代厨师的这段经历对中国烹饪有何影响？

Well, I suppose everyone of that generation had experience of acute hardship of different degrees, depending on where you were living.

嗯，我想那一代的每个人都经历过不同程度的严重困难，这取决于你生活在哪里。

Lucky me.

幸运的是我。

What’s your most popular dish with Chinese guests and with non-Chinese guests here?

您最受中国客人和非中国客人欢迎的菜是什么？

Now it’s all infused.

现在全部都注入了。

We get a lot of reviews, luckily, from the Washington Post, the Washingtonian.

幸运的是，我们从《华盛顿邮报》、《华盛顿人报》那里得到了很多评论。

And people have the urge to try something different.

人们有尝试不同事物的冲动。

They want to know more about why the food is cooked this way.

他们想更多地了解为什么食物会这样烹饪。

Mmm, that’s a bit like a Hunanese duo jiao yu tou.

嗯，有点像湖南的夺角鱼头。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

In Hunan, a very popular dish is the head of the giant carp, big-head carp, split in two on a huge platter and covered in pickled chilies and steamed.

在湖南，一道非常受欢迎的菜肴是巨型鲤鱼头，鳙鱼头，将其切成两半放在一个大盘子上，上面覆盖着泡椒，然后蒸。

This is a smaller version of that with flounder.

这是比目鱼的较小版本。

I remember the first time I actually experienced Sichuan peppercorn was in the ’90s.

我记得第一次真正体验四川花椒是在上世纪九十年代。

I have a very different background of being Chinese because my parents left China during the war in the late ’30s and early ’40s, and I was born in Thailand and grew up in Singapore.

作为中国人，我的背景非常不同，因为我的父母在三十年代末四十年代初的战争期间离开了中国，而我出生在泰国，在新加坡长大。

I don’t have any Sichuanese in my blood.

我的血液里没有四川人的血统。

Yes, you’re right.

是的，你说得对。

There are many different varieties of the plant.

该植物有许多不同的品种。

The classic red Sichuan pepper — there are actually different varieties from different parts of China, and it’s thought to express its terroir, like wine grapes.

经典的红花椒——实际上来自中国不同地区的不同品种，它被认为表达了它的风土，就像酿酒葡萄一样。

Some boutique Sichuan pepper producers now are starting to label the exact place of origin of their pepper, and you can really taste the difference.

一些精品四川辣椒生产商现在开始标注其辣椒的确切原产地，您可以真正品尝到其中的差异。

And this will also take over the world, in my opinion.

在我看来，这也将接管世界。

It will take over the world, yeah.

它将接管世界，是的。

And sansho is another variety.

而山椒则是另一种。

In the countryside in China, I’ve stayed in farmhouses where people use wild varieties of Sichuan pepper, and they add them to their green tea, for example.

在中国的农村，我住过农舍，那里的人们使用野生花椒，并将其添加到绿茶中。

How is Chinese or Sichuan farmhouse cooking different from, say, the urban styles a tourist would more likely encounter?

中国或四川的农家烹饪与游客更可能遇到的城市风格有何不同？

Is it more fermentation or what else?

是发酵多了还是什么？

Well, I think city people would often say that country cooking tastes the best, because you get, often, people growing their own vegetables.

嗯，我认为城市人经常会说乡村烹饪味道最好，因为人们经常自己种植蔬菜。

Right.

正确的。

But is it otherwise different, other than just freshness?

但除了新鲜感之外，还有其他不同吗？

You have, I would say, less meat, generally, because people traditionally would rear their own pigs for meat.

我想说，一般来说，肉食较少，因为传统上人们会饲养自己的猪来获取肉。

And fabulous cured pork, so bacon and sausages which will be used, and salt pork, used in small amounts and cooked with country vegetables.

还有美味的腌猪肉，因此将使用培根和香肠，还有咸猪肉，少量使用并与乡村蔬菜一起烹制。

I have the most naïve question possible.

我有一个最天真的问题。

As an economist, I’m interested in the geographic spread of innovation.

作为一名经济学家，我对创新的地理传播感兴趣。

Ma la I find to be one of the glories of cooking anywhere, the whole world.

我发现麻辣是全世界任何地方烹饪的荣耀之一。

Well, firstly, it’s just concerned with patterns of immigration.

嗯，首先，它只与移民模式有关。

So the ma taste, the tingly taste — and that’s the word in Chinese which also means pins and needles and anesthesia, the tingly taste of Sichuan pepper — that ma flavor is very particular to Sichuan.

所以麻的味道，麻的味道——这个词在中文里也有麻木、麻的意思，四川花椒的麻味——麻的味道是四川特有的。

Sichuan is an inland province and did not send people out into the world en masse until comparatively recently.

四川是一个内陆省份，直到最近才大规模地向世界输出人才。

But I cook with it.

但我用它做饭。

Why don’t the people, say, in Wuhan, or some other part of China?

为什么武汉或中国其他地方的人们不这样做呢？

I think now they do.

我想现在他们做到了。

Now they do.

现在他们做到了。

Since the reform and opening up in the ’90s, there are Sichuan restaurants all over the country, and people are crazy for ma la.

90年代改革开放以来，川菜馆遍布全国，人们为麻辣而疯狂。

But I think one of the reasons is that it’s so stimulating, and people now — particularly in cities — they have such a dizzying choice of different foods they can eat, and ma la is a flavor that holds its own in a very crowded marketplace.

但我认为原因之一是它太刺激了，现在的人们——尤其是在城市里——他们可以吃的不同食物的选择如此令人眼花缭乱，而麻辣是一种在非常拥挤的市场中保持自己独特风味的味道。

So it will take over the world.

所以它将接管世界。

It will.

会的。

Lydia’s mother has a good story about Sichuan peppercorn.

莉迪亚的妈妈有一个关于四川花椒的好故事。

When she first encountered Sichuan peppercorn, she’s like .

当她第一次遇到四川花椒时，她就像。

.

。

.

。

She’s very adventurous.

她非常喜欢冒险。

Where’s she from in China?

她来自中国哪里？

Wuhan.

武汉。

Okay, Wuhan.

好吧，武汉。

Like Fuchsia said, we didn’t know what the ingredient is until in the ’90s, and that’s when Mom started to discover this new sensation.

正如 Fuchsia 所说，直到 90 年代我们才知道这种成分是什么，也就是那时妈妈开始发现这种新感觉。

She’s the first one in her family to step out of the comfort zone, be like, “Oh, this is really interesting.

她是家里第一个走出舒适区的人，她会说：“哦，这真的很有趣。

Let me see what I can do with it.” So nowadays, she even uses Sichuan peppercorn in her cookies.

让我看看我能用它做什么。”所以现在，她甚至在饼干中加入了四川花椒。

That’s how crazy she is.

她就是这么疯狂。

So for example, the soup we’re drinking right now — it’s black bone chicken soup, Wu Ji Tang乌鸡汤.

比如说我们现在喝的汤——乌鸡汤，乌鸡汤。

Typically, you would see the spice that we use, Gan Liao 干料, to make the soup, Da Liao 大料.

通常，你会看到我们用来做汤的香料，干料，大料。

But the version that we make now — it’s very clear.

但我们现在制作的版本非常清楚。

It’s like how my mom likes to drink.

就像我妈妈喜欢喝酒一样。

Isn’t that dāngguī in there?

那不是当归吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Chinese angelica.

当归。

Yes.

是的。

That slightly astringent taste there.

那里有一点点涩的味道。

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

What is that?

那是什么？

It’s a medicinal herb, Chinese angelica.

它是一种药材，当归。

Dāngguī.

当归。

There’s also Chinese dates.

还有中国日期。

You see the red goji berry.

你看到红枸杞了。

And then the Chinese yam.

然后是山药。

Yeah, the Chinese yam, which has a lovely consistency.

是的，山药，它的稠度非常好。

A bit like potato, but a bit slippery as well.

有点像土豆，但也有点滑。

I agree.

我同意。

If I’m cooking for friends at home, if they’re not Chinese, I might make a soup or not.

如果我在家给朋友做饭，如果他们不是中国人，我可能会做汤，也可能不做。

But if I’m cooking for Chinese friends, I would put a lot of effort into making a beautiful broth because they’ll really appreciate it, and it’ll make them enjoy the whole meal more as well.

但如果我为中国朋友做饭，我会花很多精力做一道美味的肉汤，因为他们会非常喜欢它，这会让他们更享受整顿饭。

What does China do best in Western food?

中国最擅长的西餐是什么？

Pastry.

糕点。

Actually, you’re right.

事实上，你是对的。

You’re quite right.

你说得很对。

Pastry.

糕点。

Yes.

是的。

And it’s actually the greatest love affair for a Chinese person.

这实际上是中国人最伟大的爱情。

As you were mentioning, the cosmopolitan cities with the people of expats and the locals .

正如你所提到的，国际大都市中有外国人和当地人。

.

。

.

。

The idea of pastry from all over the world has really penetrated China with a very — kind of synergy.

来自世界各地的糕点理念确实以一种非常协同的方式渗透到了中国。

Yeah, you’ve absolutely nailed it.

是的，你绝对做到了。

Lamination bread, steamed, baked.

层压面包，蒸，烤。

And it’s really taken onto a next level.

它确实进入了一个新的水平。

In Taiwan in particular, bread is just infused with local ingredients like Long An 龙眼or local wine, tea.

特别是在台湾，面包只是加入当地的食材，如龙眼或当地的酒、茶。

I think that that’s the greatest marriage of technique and ideas.

我认为这是技术和想法的最好结合。

In China, one thing that’s quite trendy is toast, so you get toast cafés.

在中国，很流行的一件事就是吐司，所以就有了吐司咖啡馆。

Right.

正确的。

But this is not toast as English people like it, sort of crusty toast with butter and jam.

但这不是英国人喜欢的吐司，而是一种涂有黄油和果酱的硬皮吐司。

Or anywhere, really.

或者任何地方，真的。

Yeah.

是的。

And they have these very soft, square loaves, which are served with all kinds of different toppings.

他们有非常柔软的方形面包，配有各种不同的配料。

Sometimes ham and cheese and ketchup, or sometimes the bread is mixed up with red beans.

有时是火腿、奶酪和番茄酱，有时是面包与红豆混合。

So it’s a totally fusion food.

所以它是一种完全融合的食物。

You also get pizzas that would outrage any Italian, like durian pizza.

你还可以买到让任何意大利人都感到愤怒的披萨，比如榴莲披萨。

Right.

正确的。

Lychee pizza.

荔枝披萨。

Yes.

是的。

Strawberry and chocolate pizza.

草莓和巧克力披萨。

I agree, and I was surprised because I’ve been traveling to China since the ’90s as well, and I see the change.

我同意，而且我很惊讶，因为自 90 年代以来我也一直去中国旅行，我看到了变化。

Cities or towns that weren’t popular back then, like Xi’an.

当时不受欢迎的城市或城镇，比如西安。

I managed to find really top-notch croissants.

我设法找到了真正一流的牛角面包。

Yes.

是的。

The thing that’s really remarkable about that is the speed, because it’s happened in five years, ten years?

真正值得注意的是速度，因为它是在五年、十年内发生的？

Correct.

正确的。

Not more than that.

仅此而已。

It’s just like lightning.

就像闪电一样。

Suddenly they’ve cracked patisserie, in the way that the Japanese have.

突然间，他们就像日本人那样，破解了法式糕点。

One thing also that’s really, really shocking to me, for a great tea-drinking nation, is the popularity of coffee.

对于一个伟大的饮茶国家来说，还有一件事让我感到非常非常震惊，那就是咖啡的受欢迎程度。

Not only Starbucks, which has spread like a rash over the whole country and now has a local imitator called Luckin Coffee —

不仅是像风靡全国的星巴克，现在也出现了本土模仿者瑞幸咖啡——

Correct.

正确。

— which emerged from nowhere.

——不知从何而来。

But also, there are so many little cafés doing freshly ground coffee beans.

而且，还有很多小咖啡馆提供现磨咖啡豆。

Where would you go in China if you were somebody who restricted meat?

如果你是限制吃肉的人，你会去中国哪里？

I’m also curious from a home-cooking perspective how you’d make a good meal without meat.

我也很好奇从家庭烹饪的角度来看，如何在没有肉的情况下做出一顿美餐。

If you want to make a good meal without meat, then Chinese cuisine offers plenty of fabulous solutions because the Chinese are brilliant at using fermented foods like soy sauce, black beans, Sichuan chili bean paste, and fermented tofu, all of which have almost meaty or cheesy or creamy umami flavors, to cook with vegetables.

如果你想在没有肉的情况下做一顿美餐，那么中国菜提供了很多美妙的解决方案，因为中国人擅长使用发酵食品，如酱油、黑豆、四川豆瓣酱和发酵豆腐，所有这些都几乎具有肉味、奶酪味或奶油味，与蔬菜一起烹饪。

So you can make the kind of dishes that are actually very appealing and satisfying to meat eaters as well as vegetarians because of these very bold and satisfying flavors and mouthfeels.

因此，您可以制作出对肉食者和素食者来说实际上非常有吸引力和令人满意的菜肴，因为这些非常大胆和令人满意的口味和口感。

Lydia, the next dish, if you could, please.

莉迪亚，如果可以的话，请上一道菜。

Yes.

是的。

What we have here — it’s a Jingzhou-style fish cake with a yellow, eggy skin, with Grandmother’s fish balls.

我们这里的鱼糕是荆州风味的鱼糕，外皮呈黄色，蛋黄，配上奶奶的鱼丸。

Again, this is the dish that’s loved by our Western and Chinese clients.

同样，这道菜深受我们的西方和中国客户的喜爱。

That’s so pretty.

太漂亮了。

Yeah.

是的。

Everything in here is made in-house.

这里的一切都是内部制作的。

That’s years of culinary experience.

那是多年的烹饪经验。

Yeah.

是的。

And that’s very classical presentation.

这是非常经典的演示。

Precisely.

恰恰。

With all these carefully cut rectangles of egg skin.

有了所有这些精心切割的矩形蛋皮。

And you don’t actually often see that.

而你实际上并不经常看到这一点。

No.

不。

Not even in China.

即使在中国也没有。

And this fish ball dish reminds me of a lot of New Year dishes in many regions of China, which are quite laborious to make because separately, you’ve made a fish cake and fish balls and then cut them up and reheated them in a big festive pot.

这道鱼丸让我想起了中国很多地区的很多年菜，做起来很费力，因为你要分别制作鱼饼和鱼丸，然后把它们切碎放在一个大锅里重新加热。

People would often do that sort of thing for the Chinese New Year.

人们在过年时经常会做这样的事情。

Lao Gan Ma, spicy chili crisp.

老干妈，辣辣酥。

Yes, that’s delicious.

是的，那很好吃。

Yes.

是的。

Is that a here thing or a there thing?

这是这里的事还是那里的事？

It’s everywhere.

它无处不在。

The whole world.

整个世界。

Oh, it’s very trendy, and it’s from Guizhou province, another spice-eating province in southwest China.

哦，它很时尚，它来自中国西南部另一个吃香料的省份贵州省。

It was invented by a woman, Lao Gan Ma, and it’s now .

它是由一个女人老干妈发明的，现在是。

.

。

.

。

There’s mass production, and it has been popular in China for a long time.

有批量生产，在中国流行很长时间。

Wow.

哇。

And offer to put a spoonful on your food for extra heat.

并主动在食物上放一勺以增加热量。

What airline is that?

那是什么航空公司？

Sichuan Airlines.

四川航空.

Lydia, the next dish if you please.

莉迪亚，如果你愿意的话，下一道菜。

The red pepper chicken with sesame.

红辣椒芝麻鸡。

Again, that’s our version of the Chongqing chicken.

这又是我们版的重庆鸡。

We want to make something a little lighter, not so heavily battered.

我们想让东西变得更轻一些，而不是那么严重。

And the sesame flavor just creates a balance of the red peppers.

芝麻的味道正好平衡了红辣椒的味道。

I have a question.

我有一个问题。

What are some of the most interesting economic, historic determinants of food?

食物的一些最有趣的经济、历史决定因素是什么？

Well, I suppose the first thing is that patterns of trade historically…

嗯，我想第一件事是历史上的贸易模式……

One thing that I always find very fascinating is that many Chinese ingredients bear the names of the era and the place from which they were imported.

我一直觉得非常有趣的一件事是，许多中国食材都带有时代名称和进口地名称。

All right, for those who’ve been anticipating the spice, the Mama Chang home style is not really too focused on just the heat, the spicy, but actually a lot of balanced flavors.

好吧，对于那些一直期待香料的人来说，张妈妈的家常风格并不仅仅太注重热度、辛辣，而是实际上有很多平衡的味道。

So far, we didn’t really have something that’s too intense.

到目前为止，我们还没有真正遇到过太激烈的事情。

And those are the really deadly little green —

这些是真正致命的小绿色——

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, Ye Shan Jiao 野山椒.

是啊，野山椒。

They’re called wild mountain chilies.

它们被称为野山辣椒。

You look at that, and it’s a delicate jade green.

你看，它是一种精致的翠绿色。

It doesn’t look really red and spicy.

它看起来并不那么红和辣。

Right.

正确的。

But they’re the hottest sort of pickled chilies.

但它们是最辣的腌辣椒。

And also, the bird’s eye, little rice chilies.

还有鸟眼、小辣椒。

In Chinese, Xiao Mi Jiao 小米椒.

在中文中，小米椒。

I think I have that version with fish, the flounder.

我想我有那个版本的鱼，比目鱼。

Yeah?

是的？

Yeah.

是的。

I remember having that.

我记得有那个。

I was really surprised how Sichuan use the pickled chili.

我真的很惊讶四川人如何使用腌辣椒。

Yeah.

是的。

That was my first time, here, actually here.

那是我第一次来到这里，实际上是第一次来到这里。

And I was just — can’t stop eating it.

我就是——无法停止吃它。

Again, that’s kind of our way of incorporating what we can find here in the United States, so we use a lot of Thai chili with the pickled chilies.

再说一遍，这是我们将在美国可以找到的东西结合起来的方式，所以我们使用了大量的泰国辣椒和腌辣椒。

Now, you’re a famous Laotian cook.

现在，您是一位著名的老挝厨师。

When you encounter Sichuan food and also from Wuhan, what connections strike you, or what differences?

当你遇到四川菜和同样来自武汉的菜时，你会想到什么联系，或者什么区别？

You must see this all through a different lens than we do.

您必须通过与我们不同的视角来看待这一切。

Yeah.

是的。

I remember having encountered Sichuan cuisine actually through Peter Chang, because I remember when I first moved here, I actually went to my friend’s house, who is from northern Laos, and she was making this chili paste.

我记得实际上是通过Peter Chang接触到川菜的，因为我记得当我第一次搬到这里时，我实际上去了我来自老挝北部的朋友家，她正在做这种辣椒酱。

It’s a dry chili paste with northern Laos peppercorn.

这是一种带有老挝北部胡椒的干辣椒酱。

It’s very similar to Sichuan peppercorn, but it’s milder flavor.

它与四川花椒非常相似，但味道更温和。

And I was encounter it the first time.

而我还是第一次遇到。

I took the first bite.

我咬了第一口。

I was like, “What is this?

我当时想，“这是什么？

How come I never experienced this in my life before?

为什么我以前的生活中从未经历过这种事？

And it’s from Laos!”

而且是从老挝来的！”

Yeah.

是的。

In Laotian food, do you — because I don’t really know about Laotian food — but do you have that sweet, sour, spicy, salty thing going on?

在老挝菜中，你有——因为我真的不了解老挝菜——但你有甜、酸、辣、咸的东西吗？

No, mostly savory and sour, spicy, and a little bit complex.

不，主要是咸味、酸味、辣味，还有一点复杂。

I would say complex because of a lot of different herbs that we use.

我想说复杂是因为我们使用了很多不同的草药。

And some funky.

还有一些时髦的。

Definitely funky.

绝对时髦。

I forgot that one.

我忘记了那个。

Definitely funky.

绝对时髦。

We use a lot of fish paste.

我们用了很多鱼酱。

Is this very different from your other restaurants?

这和你们其他的餐厅有很大不同吗？

Yes.

是的。

Explain that a bit.

稍微解释一下。

We wanted to do more home-style cooking.

我们想做更多家庭式烹饪。

My family spent most time in Wuhan besides our time in the US right now.

现在除了在美国之外，我的家人大部分时间都在武汉度过。

I think it’s so interesting because, certainly, when I started writing about Chinese food, I was reviewing Chinese restaurants in London for Time Out magazine.

我认为这很有趣，因为当然，当我开始撰写有关中餐的文章时，我正在为《Time Out》杂志评论伦敦的中餐馆。

That you don’t find translation to.

你找不到翻译。

Yes, and I think that a lot of Westerners used to go to Chinese restaurants with a very fixed idea about what Chinese food was, and they would want those classic, familiar dishes.

是的，我认为很多西方人过去常常去中餐馆，对中餐是什么有一个非常固定的观念，他们会想要那些经典的、熟悉的菜肴。

And that’s totally changed.

这完全改变了。

Now you can put anything on a Chinese menu, and the foodie people, the more adventurous people, are keen to try new dishes, right?

现在你可以把任何东西都放在中文菜单上，而吃货们，那些更喜欢冒险的人，都热衷于尝试新菜肴，对吧？

So you don’t have to cater for different audiences anymore.

因此，您不必再迎合不同的受众。

No, we don’t.

不，我们不。

And sometimes we do find our non-Chinese customers are more open to trying new things because the Chinese normally come having this same menu over and over.

有时我们确实发现我们的非中国客户更愿意尝试新事物，因为中国人通常会一遍又一遍地使用相同的菜单。

That’s really funny.

这真的很有趣。

It’s like it’s the other way around.

好像是相反的情况。

Yeah.

是的。

I have a writing question because I write cookbooks for other chefs.

我有一个写作问题，因为我为其他厨师写食谱。

You’ve updated this cookbook.

您已经更新了这本食谱。

I like to explain to people that there’s fashion in cooking, just like there’s fashion in anything else, and they age and they grow and they reference the past.

我喜欢向人们解释烹饪中的时尚，就像其他任何事物中的时尚一样，他们会变老，他们会成长，他们会参考过去。

Well, I think there’s a huge appetite for detailed cultural information about food.

嗯，我认为人们对有关食物的详细文化信息有着巨大的兴趣。

When I sent a proposal for my first Sichuan cookbook in the late ’90s, it was rejected by all six publishers.

当我在 90 年代末向我的第一本四川烹饪书发出提案时，它被所有六家出版商拒绝了。

They all said that, well, British readers would not be interested in a regional Chinese cookbook because it was too niche and too narrow.

他们都说，英国读者不会对中国地方菜谱感兴趣，因为它太小众、太狭窄。

And has the way you approach writing recipes now — has that changed over the years?

你现在写菜谱的方式这些年来有变化吗？

No, I don’t think so.

不，我不这么认为。

I’m more experienced, so I think it’s a bit more streamlined.

我更有经验，所以我认为它更精简一些。

But I would say that it’s possible to push the boat out a bit further in terms of more adventurous dishes and ingredients.

但我想说的是，在更具冒险精神的菜肴和食材方面，有可能将船推得更远。

Because I always want to have the majority of dishes in a cookbook doable for someone.

因为我总是希望食谱中的大部分菜肴都适合某人。

But not all of them.

但不是全部。

So every now and then, you sit back, and you cackle, “I’m going to put one in that none of them can make.”

所以时不时地，你会坐下来，咯咯笑着说：“我要放一个他们都做不到的东西。”

Yeah, being ahead of the curve.

是的，走在时代前沿。

Which recipe would that be in your new book?

你的新书中会出现哪个食谱？

Well, there’s a very popular, very fiery Chongqing dish called mao xue wang, which is spicy blood stew, and it’s made with pig’s blood and offal.

嗯，有一道非常受欢迎、非常火爆的重庆菜，叫做毛血王，这是一种辣血炖菜，由猪血和内脏制成。

It can actually be made with duck’s blood if you have it.

如果你有的话，它实际上可以用鸭血制成。

But that’s something that is not available in every Chinese shop, and you have to be more adventurous to make.

但这并不是每个中国商店都有的，你必须更具冒险精神才能做出来。

Yes.

是的。

I think you can see the difference in the cauliflower more, even more so in this steamed stir-fry version, that it’s a little bit different, with more stem.

我想你可以更多地看到花椰菜的不同，在这个蒸炒版本中更是如此，它有点不同，有更多的茎。

Yeah, a mild dish, and with that beautiful purple Chinese eggplant.

是的，一道清淡的菜，还有漂亮的紫色中国茄子。

We call it garden duo.

我们称之为花园二人组。

Again, from Grandmother’s garden.

再次，来自祖母的花园。

Two vegetables.

两种蔬菜。

Do you want to know what creates the consistency?

您想知道是什么创造了一致性吗？

Yes.

是的。

What’s in the sauce?

酱汁里有什么？

Oil.

油。

Sorry to tell you, but —

很遗憾地告诉你，但是——

Yeah.

是的。

Globally, eggplant — always a lot of oil.

在全球范围内，茄子总是含有大量的油。

From eggplant Parmesan to Chinese cooking, it’s pretty much soaked up in that.

从茄子帕尔马干酪到中式烹饪，它几乎都沉浸在其中。

It’s pretty amazing.

这真是太神奇了。

But that creates the meaty texture.

但这创造了肉质的质感。

It’s very tender.

非常温柔。

It’s like eating pork belly.

就像吃五花肉一样。

Recently, I just came back from Shanghai, and I went to a restaurant that you have written about, Yu Zhi Lan.

最近，我刚从上海回来，去了你写的一家餐厅，玉芝兰。

How did you come about meeting Chef Lan?

您是怎么认识兰厨师的？

Well, I’ve known him for 15 or 20 years.

嗯，我认识他已经有 15 或 20 年了。

He’s actually one of the chefs that I brought to the CIA, Culinary Institute of America, in, I think, 2004.

我想，他实际上是 2004 年我带到 CIA（美国烹饪学院）的厨师之一。

I came with him and two other leading Sichuanese chefs to do a demonstration there.

我和他以及另外两位四川顶尖厨师一起去那里做示范。

He’s always been an extremely creative and talented chef.

他一直是一位极具创造力和才华的厨师。

He’s one of the most outstanding chefs of his generation, so I followed his career with interest.

他是这一代最杰出的厨师之一，所以我饶有兴趣地关注着他的职业生涯。

Yes.

是的。

It’s tiny, and it’s run by Chef Lan and his wife and his sister-in-law and a few other staff.

它很小，由兰厨师和他的妻子、他的嫂子以及其他一些员工经营。

It’s typical of Sichuanese banquet cuisine in that you have some of the spicy flavors of folk cooking, but you also have very delicate flavors based on exquisite stocks made from chicken and ham or fish, depending on the dish.

这是典型的川菜宴席美食，既有民间烹饪的辛辣味道，也有以鸡肉、火腿或鱼肉制成的精致高汤（具体取决于菜肴）的精致风味。

Yes.

是的。

Sort of holes in the wall and popular places.

墙上的洞和受欢迎的地方。

It was high-end.

这是高端的。

But I was most impressed when I had a little tour of the kitchen, and there was only one wok, like a portable wok.

但给我印象最深的是我参观了厨房，里面只有一个炒锅，就像一个便携式炒锅。

I’m an okay Chinese cook, and I always tell people my weakness, especially Lydia’s dad, that I can’t wok.

我是一名还不错的中国厨师，我总是告诉别人我的弱点，尤其是莉迪亚的爸爸，我不会炒菜。

If you want me to cook with you, you’re doing everything on the wok.

如果你想让我和你一起做饭，你就得在炒锅上做所有的事情。

I’m just going to fry and do the salads, do the steaming, the dim sum.

我只会煎炸、做沙拉、蒸、做点心。

I can do any of that, but not the wok.

这些我都可以做，但炒锅不行。

Around.

大约。

Yeah.

是的。

I wouldn’t be able to handle a kitchen like that, but I think that this new no-wok or less-wok Chinese restaurant — I never figured how they do that.

我无法处理这样的厨房，但我认为这家新的不炒锅或少炒锅的中餐厅 - 我从来没有想过他们是如何做到这一点的。

Like in New York, there’s a very popular one called Hao Noodle by Madam Zhu.

就像在纽约，有一种很受欢迎的面条，叫朱女士的好面。

Oh, yes.

哦是的。

Beautiful place.

美丽的地方。

And this is all over China, and there’s no wok.

全中国都是这样，没有炒锅。

It’s very interesting.

这很有趣。

Really?

真的吗？

Yes.

是的。

I think you can’t tell from the menu, but you definitely can go through, eat quite an exquisite meal, without realizing that nothing comes from the wok.

我想你从菜单上看不出来，但你绝对可以吃完一顿精致的饭菜，却没有意识到炒锅里没有任何东西。

I would say that when people think about Chinese cuisine, they often think about stir-fry as the Chinese method par excellence.

我想说，当人们想到中国菜时，他们经常想到炒菜是最出色的中国方法。

But it’s one of many different cooking methods, and certainly steaming has been done in China since the Neolithic Age.

但这只是众多不同烹饪方法中的一种，当然，蒸在中国自新石器时代以来就已经存在。

You can say that is the classic Chinese cooking method, really.

可以说，这就是中国经典的烹饪方法。

Given your background in Singapore, how do you assess Chinese food in Singapore?

鉴于您在新加坡的背景，您如何评价新加坡的中餐？

What’s it good at?

它擅长什么？

What’s it not good at?

它不擅长什么？

In the last century, if you speak to a lot of Chinese who migrated to, let’s say, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, the cream of the crop went to Singapore, and they mostly went before the war broke out, during famine times of the rest of China.

在上个世纪，如果你和很多移民到泰国、越南、马来西亚、新加坡的中国人交谈，其中的精英都去了新加坡，他们大多在战争爆发之前、中国其他地区的饥荒时期去了新加坡。

Yeah.

是的。

But I’ve found I can’t get very good Sichuan food in Singapore, or at least I don’t know how to find it.

但我发现我在新加坡吃不到很好的川菜，或者至少我不知道如何找到它。

That southern Chinese — Hokkien, Fujian — it’s weird, but it’s pretty good.

中国南方的闽南语、福建语虽然很奇怪，但也不错。

Singaporean food is amazing.

新加坡的食物棒极了。

Malay food is amazing.

马来食物很棒。

But a lot of the harder-core Chinese regions .

但是中国很多比较硬核的地区。

.

。

.

。

Somehow, Singapore has too many other good things for Singaporeans to be interested in them.

不知何故，新加坡还有太多其他好东西让新加坡人不感兴趣。

Or do you have a different impression?

或者你有什么不一样的印象吗？

Well, to clarify a little bit more, there’s restaurant Chinese food and there’s home Chinese food.

好吧，再澄清一点，有餐馆中餐，也有家庭中餐。

The home Chinese food might even be more simple, probably a lot of Hokkien or Teochew kind of flavors, which has a lot of soups and clear broths, and almost no stir-fry and very little oil used in the cooking, and it’s lean cuts of meat.

中餐可能更简单，可能有很多闽南语或潮州风味，汤多，汤清，几乎不炒，用油很少，而且是瘦肉。

Restaurant tends to be spicier.

餐厅往往更辣。

Well, I think it is the story of immigrants.

嗯，我认为这是移民的故事。

Yes.

是的。

The immigrants in Thailand — a lot of them were Teochew or Chaozhou people.

泰国的移民——其中很多是潮州人或潮州人。

Right.

正确的。

And Cantonese immigrants in southeast .

还有东南部的广东人移民。

.

。

.

。

Yeah, and Hakka and Fujian.

是的，还有客家和福建。

That’s a completely different flavor profile.

这是完全不同的风味特征。

Then in Thailand, they have their own spicy food, so maybe they don’t need Sichuanese in the same way.

然后在泰国，他们有自己的辛辣食物，所以也许他们不需要同样的四川人。

Right.

正确的。

There’s something also about the mentality, too, of culture because I think spices for a lot of southeast Asians are seen as almost like — not as high as Cantonese because you do have to consume it with some kind of starch or rice.

还有一些与文化心态有关的因素，因为我认为对于很多东南亚人来说，香料几乎被视为——不像粤菜那么高，因为你确实必须与某种淀粉或大米一起食用。

A lot of Singaporean Chinese or Thai Chinese — they prefer to eat more things like that, or the vegetable, for sure, where you don’t need rice, and it becomes more of a lighter meal and something that maybe on a society level is considered more of the way to eat.

很多新加坡华人或泰国华人——他们更喜欢吃更多这样的东西，或者蔬菜，当然，你不需要米饭，而且它变得更清淡一些，也许在社会层面上被认为是更多的饮食方式。

That’s really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

And this one, this is tofu Dou Fu Gan 豆腐干, is it?

还有这个，这是豆腐干，是吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Pressed tofu.

压豆腐。

La Rou.

拉鲁。

Really?

真的吗？

La Rou Chao Xiang Gan 腊肉炒香干.

腊肉炒香干。

Oh, this is lovely.

哦，这太可爱了。

What’s the significance of that?

这有什么意义呢？

We use cured pork belly we smoke in-house with some leeks, smoked tofu.

我们使用自制的腌制五花肉和一些韭菜，熏豆腐。

And the greens have come out.

果岭已经出来了。

Tell us about the greens, please.

请告诉我们有关果岭的信息。

When we see the greens, we know this is the last dish of the meal.

当我们看到蔬菜时，我们知道这是这顿饭的最后一道菜。

Snow pea tips, simple stir-fry.

豌豆小贴士，简单炒。

This is like also in Hunan farmhouse cooking: a little bit of cured pork with tofu, also with that smoky flavor, and the Chinese garlic or leek.

这也像湖南农家菜一样：一点点腊肉加豆腐，同样带着烟熏味，再加上大蒜或韭菜。

Yeah.

是的。

Delicious.

可口的。

That’s something also about Chinese food.

这也是关于中国菜的。

It needs to be consumed at the hottest point temperature-wise.

它需要在温度最高点消耗。

Going back to the Yu Zhi Lan story, yes, there are cold dishes.

回到玉芝兰的故事，是的，还有凉菜。

There are courses it’s okay to have at room temperature.

有些课程可以在室温下进行。

But generally, Chinese food is not the best for a tasting menu because everything needs to be consumed super, super hot.

但一般来说，中餐并不是品尝菜单的最佳选择，因为所有东西都需要非常非常热才能食用。

I think that the food at Yu Zhi Lan and also Yu Bo’s restaurant are fantastic, but as you said, there’s actually less of an emphasis on stir-fries, so you don’t get a big, piping-hot stir-fry dish.

我觉得玉芝兰和玉波餐厅的菜都很棒，但正如你所说，实际上不太注重炒菜，所以你吃不到一大盘热气腾腾的炒菜。

And more soupy dishes and braises and so on.

还有更多的汤菜和红烧菜等等。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

Is it similar to a Michelin Guide, but coming into China?

是不是类似于米其林指南，但是进入了中国？

Maybe a lot of those restaurants follow the format, basically, I think, or the style.

我认为，也许很多餐馆基本上都遵循这种格式或风格。

Yeah, and I think that’s unfortunate —

是的，我认为这很不幸——

It is.

是的。

— that Michelin, as I mentioned before, is not very well equipped to judge Chinese food.

——正如我之前提到的，米其林并没有很好的能力来评判中国菜。

The first Chinese restaurant to win three Michelin stars was one in a fancy hotel in Hong Kong that did a tasting menu of courses which one person could enjoy.

第一家获得米其林三颗星的中餐厅位于香港一家豪华酒店，提供单人可享用的品尝菜单。

I appreciate that kind of restaurant too, because I do often travel by myself, and I can actually go to Yu Zhi Lan and eat at the bar by myself and enjoy a myriad of dishes with so much technique solo, and not have to eat 10 sea cucumbers at one time, but rather just one perfect one.

我也很欣赏这样的餐厅，因为我经常一个人旅行，我其实可以一个人去玉芝兰，在吧台吃饭，一个人享受这么多菜，技术那么高，而不是一次吃10个海参，而是一个完美的。

Yeah, so you could be a Michelin inspector.

是的，所以你可以成为米其林检查员。

I may be.

我可能是。

I’m kidding.

我在开玩笑。

You talked about how you think about preparing food if you’re having people over for a Chinese meal.

您谈到了如果您邀请人们来吃中餐，您如何考虑准备食物。

Can you just walk us through?

你能给我们介绍一下吗？

If you were creating the balanced meal, what are the pieces that you want to hit?

如果您要制作均衡膳食，您想要解决哪些问题？

You mentioned soup already, but —

你已经提到过汤了，但是——

Well, the first thing is that if I’m cooking at home, I don’t want to be like a banshee over the stove for the whole evening, so I would not choose a menu that’s all last-minute stir-fried dishes — particularly important cooking at home.

嗯，第一件事是，如果我在家做饭，我不想像女妖一样整晚都在炉子上，所以我不会选择全是最后一刻炒菜的菜单——在家做饭尤其重要。

So I would always do a spread of cold dishes.

所以我总是会做一些凉菜。

How many depends on my energy level and how many people.

多少取决于我的能量水平和有多少人。

But maybe at least three or four cold dishes.

但也许至少三四个凉菜。

They’re easy to prepare in advance, and really delicious, and people can start eating them while you prepare the other dishes.

它们很容易提前准备，而且非常美味，人们可以在你准备其他菜肴的同时开始吃它们。

Or sometimes it’s a rice cake.

或者有时是年糕。

For example, we’re going to have in a minute Wai Po Mi Liang Gao 外婆米凉糕.

例如，我们马上就要吃外婆米凉糕。

It’s fermented rice cake, which is this white, a little translucent.

这是发酵米糕，是白色的，有点半透明。

How do you think more generally about serving Chinese final course, or I may call it dessert, in America, where Americans expect big heapings of pie and sweetness and sugar?

在美国，美国人期待大堆的馅饼、甜味和糖，你对提供中式最后一道菜（或者我可以称之为甜点）有什么更普遍的看法？

How do you approach that?

你如何处理这个问题？

What do you pick?

你选什么？

What do you recommend?

你有什么建议吗？

We actually do have a sesame flourless chocolate cake on the menu right now, being made by Pichet, and also matcha cream cheese —

实际上，我们现在的菜单上确实有一款由 Pichet 制作的芝麻无面粉巧克力蛋糕，还有抹茶奶油奶酪 —

Souffle cheesecake.

舒芙蕾芝士蛋糕。

Souffle cheesecake.

舒芙蕾芝士蛋糕。

Those are things that’s not so .

但事实并非如此。

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。

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。

After a big meal like this today, there’s just hardly any room left for a .

今天吃完一顿大餐后，几乎没有空间了。

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。

.

。

Yes, you always have a separate stomach for dessert, but —

是的，你总是有一个单独的胃来吃甜点，但是——

Yeah, I’m very much in favor, if you want to have a sweet hit, it doesn’t have to be Chinese, right?

是啊，我非常赞成，如果你想吃甜食，不一定非得是中国的，对吧？

Right.

正确的。

If you want to have a sweet, have a chocolate cake.

如果你想吃甜食，那就吃巧克力蛋糕。

Right.

正确的。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

For a long time, the fine-dining Chinese restaurants in the US — you’d just get a chocolate mousse cake or —

很长一段时间以来，在美国的高级中餐馆——你只会得到一个巧克力慕斯蛋糕或者——

Or a croissant.

或者羊角面包。

Or crème brûlée.

或者焦糖布丁。

But with my Shanghainese mother and heritage, I do have a very, very, very sweet palate.

但由于我的母亲是上海人，加上我的血统，我的口味确实非常、非常、非常甜。

I grew up eating chocolates for breakfast.

我从小就吃巧克力当早餐。

What other cuisines do you really like to cook?

您还真正喜欢烹饪哪些其他菜肴？

Do you have a secondary .

你有中学吗？

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。

.

。

If this is your major, what’s your minor?

如果这是你的专业，你的辅修是什么？

Hunan.

湖南。

Basically, other Chinese cuisines.

基本上就是其他中国菜。

I mainly cook Chinese food, yeah.

我主要做中餐，是的。

All the time?

一直吗？

Even at home?

即使在家里？

Yeah, that’s what I instinctively do.

是的，这就是我本能地做的事。

That’s my comfort food now, and that’s the easy thing to rustle up.

这就是我现在的安慰食物，而且很容易就能找到。

I do do a bit of Italian — I really love Marcella Hazan’s books — and a bit of Turkish.

我确实会一点意大利语——我真的很喜欢玛塞拉·哈赞的书——还有一点土耳其语。

I spent some time in Turkey when I was much younger.

我年轻的时候在土耳其呆过一段时间。

I certainly hope they don’t want you to make Yorkshire pudding and bangers.

我当然希望他们不想让你做约克郡布丁和香肠。

No, and I don’t know how to make Yorkshire pudding.

不，我不知道如何制作约克郡布丁。

How do you experience the oppression of being famous at cooking?

你如何体会因烹饪出名而受到的压迫？

What’s the major disadvantage of that?

这样做的主要缺点是什么？

Is it that you always feel obliged to be pleasing other people if there’s a meal?

是不是吃饭的时候你总觉得有义务去取悦别人？

Or can you just set that out of your mind and make other people cook?

或者你能把这件事抛在脑后，让别人做饭吗？

Yeah.

是的。

When I published my first book, suddenly my friends started saying, “We’re scared to cook for you.” And that’s a shame because it’s lovely being cooked for, and you don’t have to be a professional cook.

当我出版第一本书时，我的朋友突然开始说：“我们害怕为你做饭。”这是一种耻辱，因为做饭是一件很愉快的事，而且你不必是一名专业厨师。

On that note, why don’t we end the podcast formally?

就此而言，我们为什么不正式结束播客呢？

I’d just like to thank Fuchsia and again recommend heartily her new book, The Food of Sichuan.

我要感谢Fuchsia，并再次衷心推荐她的新书《四川美食》。

What I find most remarkable in her books .

我在她的书中发现最引人注目的。

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。

As somebody who writes books and reviews many books — most books, there are just pages, pages where the author is coasting.

作为一个写书并评论很多书的人——大多数书，只有一页一页，作者在其中滑行。

What’s there might be fine.

那里有什么可能没问题。

It might be true.

这可能是真的。

But there’s parts that are really good, and then parts like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah.”

但有些部分真的很好，然后像“是啊，是啊，是啊”之类的部分。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Wonderful food, Lydia.

美味的食物，莉迪亚。