Emily Wilson on Translations and Language (Ep. 63)
Hello, I’m here today with Emily Wilson, who is professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania.
大家好，今天我和艾米丽·威尔逊一起来到这里，她是宾夕法尼亚大学古典研究教授。
She has recently translated Homer’s Odyssey.
她最近翻译了荷马的《奥德赛》。
The book has been a smash hit.
这本书非常受欢迎。
It’s my personal favorite of all the translations I’ve read.
这是我读过的所有译本中我个人最喜欢的。
We’ll speak more about some of her other work.
我们将更多地讨论她的其他一些作品。
Emily, welcome.
艾米丽，欢迎。
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Let’s jump right in on the Odyssey.
让我们直接进入奥德赛。
I want you to explain the whole book to me, but let’s start small.
我希望你向我解释整本书，但让我们从小事开始。
Does Odysseus even want to return home?
奥德修斯还想回家吗？
He does as the poem starts.
他按照诗的开头做了。
As the poem starts, he spent the last seven years on the island of a goddess called Calypso, originally, the poem implies, quite willingly.
正如这首诗的开头，他在一个名叫卡吕普索的女神岛上度过了最后的七年，诗中暗示，最初，他是非常自愿的。
So, it seems as if he’s changed his mind about whether or not he wants to go home.
所以，他似乎改变了是否要回家的想法。
But as the poem begins, he does want to get back home to Ithaca, to his wife, Penelope, and his son, Telemachus.
但当这首诗开始时，他确实想回到伊萨卡的家，回到他的妻子佩内洛普和儿子忒勒马科斯身边。
Do you think he means it?
你认为他是这个意思吗？
Or is he just self-deceiving?
还是他只是自欺欺人？
Because he takes the detour into the underworld.
因为他绕道进入了冥界。
He hangs around with Circe for many years.
他和喀耳刻在一起很多年了。
There’s a contrast with Menelaus, who acts as if he actually does want to get home.
这与墨涅拉俄斯形成鲜明对比，他表现得好像他真的想回家一样。
Who’s lying to whom in this story?
这个故事里谁对谁撒谎？
Odysseus, of course, is lying all the time, so it’s very hard for the reader to get a firm grasp on what are his motives.
当然，奥德修斯一直在撒谎，所以读者很难确切地掌握他的动机是什么。
Also, when he tells Calypso that he desperately wants to get back home, it’s very striking to me that he doesn’t give his motives.
另外，当他告诉卡里普索他非常想回家时，令我惊讶的是他没有透露他的动机。
He says to Calypso, “You’re much more beautiful than my wife is, and you’ve promised to make me immortal.
他对卡吕普索说：“你比我的妻子美丽得多，而且你答应过让我永生。
It’s a great offer, but I want to go home.” He doesn’t explain what is it that drives that desire to go home.
这是一个很棒的提议，但我想回家。”他没有解释是什么推动了回家的愿望。
And you’re quite right: he makes many detours.
你说得很对：他走了很多弯路。
He spends another year, quite willingly, with Circe, another goddess.
他很乐意地又与另一位女神喀耳刻一起度过了一年。
So it seems as if he’s easily distractible from the quest, for sure.
所以看起来他很容易从任务中分心，这是肯定的。
How much should the character of Odysseus actually be viewed as admirable?
奥德修斯的性格到底应该在多大程度上令人钦佩呢？
He’s a hero, which of course, in an archaic Greek context, doesn’t necessarily mean an admirable figure.
他是一位英雄，当然，在古希腊语境中，这并不一定意味着一个令人钦佩的人物。
He’s a figure who is — as I translate polytropos — he’s complicated.
他是一个“——”正如我翻译的“polytropos”——“他很复杂”的人物。
There’s many sides to him.
他有很多面。
He has the extraordinary qualities — which is part of what makes him heroic — that he’s different from the rest of us.
他具有非凡的品质——这也是他英雄气概的一部分——他与我们其他人不同。
He’s smarter than any other mortal.
他比任何其他凡人都聪明。
He’s better at disguising, better at telling stories, better at fictionalizing his own life, better at coming up with a plausible way to get out of any impossible situation.
他更擅长伪装，更擅长讲故事，更擅长虚构自己的生活，更擅长想出一个看似合理的方法来摆脱任何不可能的情况。
Does that make him admirable?
这让他令人钦佩吗？
In a way, it does.
在某种程度上，确实如此。
He’s a survivor.
他是一名幸存者。
He has impressive qualities that enable him to survive.
他具有令人印象深刻的品质，使他能够生存。
But he loses what, 11 out of 12 ships to the Cyclopes?
但他失去了什么，12 艘船中的 11 艘输给了独眼巨人？
Isn’t he just a bad general?
他不就是一个坏将军吗？
He loses a hundred percent of the men under his care, yes.
是的，他失去了百分之一百的受他照顾的人。
Yes.
是的。
He does.
他做到了。
It’s a pretty bad track record, yes.
是的，这是一个非常糟糕的记录。
Of course, as the father of one of the suitors says to him in book 24, after he’s slaughtered all his wife’s harassing suitors — says, “You have this unfortunate habit of killing young men.
当然，正如第 24 卷中一位追求者的父亲在屠杀了他妻子所有的骚扰追求者后对他所说的那样，“你有杀害年轻人的不幸习惯。
First, you killed this whole batch of young men who left with you to go to Troy, of whom zero returned.
首先，你杀掉了整批和你一起去特洛伊的年轻人，其中零回来了。
And now you get back home, you kill a whole bunch more young men.”
现在你回到家，又杀了一大堆年轻人。”
It seems as if there were certain problems with that, in terms of both leadership and just being a human being.
就领导力和做人而言，这似乎存在某些问题。
Early on in the story, why does Telemachus feel, at all, the need to set off and leave home?
在故事的开头，为什么特勒马科斯觉得有必要出发并离开家？
Why doesn’t he just hang around and protect his mother?
他为什么不留下来保护他的母亲呢？
That’s a very good question.
这是一个很好的问题。
Ancient commentators on the Odyssey were puzzled over it because it seems unmotivated and, if anything, a stupid idea, right?
古代《奥德赛》的评论家对此感到困惑，因为它似乎没有动机，而且如果有的话，也是一个愚蠢的想法，对吗？
Because he puts himself in danger.
因为他把自己置于危险之中。
Yes.
是的。
It’s because he’s left home that the suitors are then able to lie in wait to ambush and try to murder him.
正是因为他离开了家，求婚者才能够埋伏伏击并试图谋杀他。
It’s a very dangerous and, in the end, futile journey because he finds out nothing in the way of concrete information about his father.
这是一次非常危险且最终徒劳的旅程，因为他没有找到有关他父亲的具体信息。
He does it because he’s inspired by the goddess Athena, who wants him to go on a quest which, in some way, will parallel the quest of his father.
他这样做是因为他受到女神雅典娜的启发，雅典娜希望他继续进行一项任务，这在某种程度上与他父亲的任务相似。
The Odyssey is a poem that’s very interested in parallel narratives, in showing us one way this could go down and then another way this could go down.
《奥德赛》是一首对平行叙事非常感兴趣的诗，它向我们展示了一种可能的发展方式，然后又是另一种可能的发展方式。
Here’s one journey around the Mediterranean, here’s another way, here’s another way.
这是环地中海之旅，这是另一种方式，这是另一种方式。
The same story could be both the same and very different.
同一个故事可以是相同的，也可以是截然不同的。
How grown up is he when he returns home?
当他回到家时，他多大了？
Is there any kind of moral or spiritual advance?
有道德或精神上的进步吗？
Or is the Telemachus you see the Telemachus you get?
或者你看到的特勒马科斯就是你得到的特勒马科斯吗？
Well, before he leaves, he makes an attempt to stand up in the council of men, speaking out both to the suitors of his mother and also to the men of Ithaca.
好吧，在他离开之前，他试图在人类议会中站起来，向他母亲的追求者和伊萨卡的男人发表讲话。
It’s an attempt at being an adult man in a peaceful environment, to speak out in the council.
这是作为一个成年男子在和平的环境中在议会中发言的尝试。
It’s a speech which doesn’t go very well because he explains, fairly vehemently, what his problem is — that he’s surrounded by all these bullies, nobody’s helping him, his whole inheritance is being wasted, but he ends the speech bursting into tears.
这次演讲进行得不太顺利，因为他相当激烈地解释了他的问题是什么——他被所有这些恶霸包围着，没有人帮助他，他的全部遗产都被浪费了，但他在结束演讲时泪流满面。
So it obviously is not a particularly successful model of public speaking and of male adulthood.
因此，这显然不是一个特别成功的公共演讲和男性成年模式。
And the vision —
以及愿景——
Sorry, but when he gets back from his trip, it’s unclear whether he’s grown up at all.
抱歉，但是当他旅行回来时，我们不清楚他是否已经长大了。
He’s certainly had the experience of meeting his father’s age-mates, of meeting alternative father figures, and of course, he’s grown up without a father figure.
他当然有过与父亲的同龄人见面、与其他父亲形象见面的经历，当然，他是在没有父亲形象的情况下长大的。
He’s had the experience of being exposed to different elite households, different marriages, different potential paternal figures, and also being exposed to the experience of having a brother, or a quasi brother, and spending time with Nestor’s son, Peisistratus.
他有过接触不同的精英家庭、不同的婚姻、不同的潜在父亲形象的经历，也有过有兄弟或准兄弟的经历，以及与内斯特的儿子佩西斯特拉图斯共度时光的经历。
So, he’s had certain experiences which, in theory, could be formative or helpful for him.
因此，从理论上讲，他有过某些经历，这些经历可能对他有影响或有帮助。
I think it’s unclear in what way exactly do they affect him, if any.
我认为目前尚不清楚它们到底以何种方式影响他（如果有的话）。
Could the earlier Telemachus have killed the women raped by the suitors?
早期的忒勒马科斯会杀死那些被求婚者强奸的妇女吗？
Which he does toward the end of the story.
他在故事的最后这样做了。
What has changed in him?
他发生了什么变化？
The crucial thing that’s changed is that he’s got to spend time with his father doing something they both love, which is killing people.
最重要的改变是，他必须花时间和父亲一起做他们都喜欢的事情，那就是杀人。
He’s been spending time with his father throughout the previous few days, I think is very important in terms of his fashioning into some kind of masculinity, some kind of adulthood.
在过去的几天里，他一直和他的父亲在一起，我认为这对于他塑造某种男子气概、某种成年期来说非常重要。
In the vision of Homer’s Odyssey, how good can politics get?
在荷马《奥德赛》的愿景中，政治能变得多好？
Politics is a tricky word because, of course, this is a poem which is set before the city-state.
政治是一个棘手的词，因为当然，这是一首以城邦为背景的诗。
It’s before the polis.
这是在城邦之前。
How good can communities get?
社区可以变得多好？
But you visit what are, in essence, different city-states, right?
但你访问的本质上是不同的城邦，对吗？
Some may be mythical.
有些可能是神话般的。
You visit different communities, yes, which are proto-city-states, I guess you could say.
你访问不同的社区，是的，我想你可以说，这些社区是原始城邦。
There are different kinds of potentially idealized societies, so I think it’s unclear.
有不同类型的潜在理想化社会，所以我认为这还不清楚。
Does the poem think Nestor’s more traditional palace, in which the wife doesn’t have a name and there are many children, and they seem to spend most of their time performing elaborate sacrifices — is that better than the rich palace of Menelaus?
这首诗是否认为涅斯托尔的宫殿更加传统，里面的妻子没有名字，孩子很多，而且他们似乎大部分时间都在进行精心的祭祀——这比墨涅拉俄斯富丽堂皇的宫殿更好吗？
Is that better than the poor but somehow heroized warrior society of Ithaca?
这比伊萨卡贫穷但不知何故英雄化的武士社会更好吗？
Is that better than the matriarchal societies of Calypso or Circe?
这比卡吕普索或喀耳刻的母系社会好吗？
I think the poem is laying out for us these possible alternatives.
我认为这首诗为我们列出了这些可能的选择。
The quasi-magical land of the Phaeacians, where Odysseus visits — in some ways, maybe that’s the best possible state, but I think the poem is more interested in contrasting than necessarily ranking.
奥德修斯访问过的费阿克人的准魔法之地——在某些方面，也许这是最好的状态，但我认为这首诗更感兴趣的是对比，而不是必然的排名。
How pleasant is life amongst the Phaeacians?
斐济人的生活有多愉快？
At first, it sounds great.
乍一看，听起来很棒。
There’s a lot of prosperity, but they become increasingly passive-aggressive, you might argue.
你可能会说，这里有很多繁荣，但它们变得越来越被动攻击。
You start wondering, are foreigners really welcome here?
你开始怀疑，这里真的欢迎外国人吗？
By the time Odysseus leaves, there’s almost a bit of a mild stench around that political order.
当奥德修斯离开时，政治秩序周围几乎弥漫着一点轻微的恶臭。
Or do you think, “Well, this is the best humans can do”?
或者你认为，“好吧，这是人类能做的最好的事情”？
Is Phaeacia even a real polity of any kind, or is it just imaginary?
Phaeacia 是一个真实的政体，还是只是一个虚构的政体？
I think it’s very clearly figured as imaginary, but then the whole poem is imaginary.
我认为这很明显是虚构的，但整首诗都是虚构的。
It’s not like Nestor’s palace existed in precisely this form.
内斯特的宫殿并不正是以这种形式存在的。
It’s certainly true that from the beginning, the Phaeacians are defined by some kind of ambivalence about how cut off are they from other people?
确实，从一开始，菲亚克斯人就被某种矛盾心理所定义，即他们与其他人的隔绝程度如何？
And are they actually welcoming to strangers?
他们真的欢迎陌生人吗？
Even when Nausicaa first introduces Odysseus to her people, she explains, “My people are not welcoming to strangers.” That’s why Odysseus has to walk into town separately from her.
即使当娜乌西卡第一次向她的人民介绍奥德修斯时，她也解释道：“我的人民不欢迎陌生人。”这就是为什么奥德修斯必须与她分开进城。
Already, even before we meet the king and queen of this strange place, we have these mixed signals about how welcoming or not welcoming are they?
甚至在我们见到这个陌生地方的国王和王后之前，我们就已经收到了这些关于他们有多欢迎或不欢迎的混合信号？
Why is it that they’re so good at sailing, and yet they seem to have gone nowhere?
为什么他们如此擅长航海，却似乎无处可去？
In what ways is this very isolationist society the ideal or not the ideal?
这个孤立主义社会在哪些方面是理想的还是不理想的？
Is there humor in Homer?
荷马史诗有幽默感吗？
Oh, there’s tons of humor, yes.
哦，有很多幽默，是的。
We were just talking about the Phaeacians.
我们刚刚谈论的是菲亚克斯人。
I think one of the funniest parts is when Odysseus has been shipwrecked, and he lands on the land of Scheria, or the land of the Phaeacians — and of course, has lost all his clothes in the shipwreck, and ends up having to pop up from behind a bush wearing no clothes in front of a beautiful princess.
我认为最有趣的部分之一是当奥德修斯遭遇海难时，他降落在谢里亚（Scheria）土地上，或者说菲亚克斯人的土地上——当然，他在海难中失去了所有衣服，最终不得不从灌木丛后面赤身裸体地出现在一位美丽的公主面前。
In order to try and impress her, he has to cover himself up with branches and give a very long speech to distract her from the fact that she’s being accosted by a dirty, naked man.
为了给她留下深刻的印象，他不得不用树枝遮住自己，并发表很长的演讲，以分散她的注意力，让她注意一个肮脏、赤身裸体的男人正在搭讪她。
It’s a funny scene.
这是一个有趣的场景。
Why did Thomas Hobbes translate the Odyssey?
托马斯·霍布斯为什么要翻译《奥德赛》？
Was that part of his political vision somehow?
这是否是他政治愿景的一部分？
I think so.
我想是的。
I can’t give you the expert account of Hobbes’s Odyssey.
我无法向您提供霍布斯《奥德赛》的专业描述。
But it’s a lot of work, as you know, right?
但正如你所知，这需要很多工作，对吗？
It’s a lot of work, yes.
这是很多工作，是的。
I think both Thucydides and Homer were projects for Hobbes that had to do with trying to figure out what kinds of models, and also what kinds of countermodels — what kinds of wrong society — can be represented by the ancient political worlds.
我认为修昔底德和荷马都是霍布斯的项目，旨在找出古代政治世界可以代表什么类型的模型，以及什么类型的反模型——“什么样的错误社会”。
I think both Thucydides and Homer were projects for Hobbes that had to do with trying to figure out what kinds of models, and also what kinds of countermodels — what kinds of wrong society — can be represented by the ancient political worlds.
我认为修昔底德和荷马都是霍布斯的项目，旨在找出古代政治世界可以代表什么类型的模型，以及什么类型的反模型——“什么样的错误社会”。
Now that you’ve spent so much time with this book, does part of you feel Socrates was actually right about Homer, that it’s a bad example?
既然你已经花了这么多时间读这本书，你是否觉得苏格拉底关于荷马的看法实际上是正确的，这是一个坏例子？
You mean right about Odysseus, or right about meaning —
你的意思是关于奥德修斯的正确，或者关于意义的正确-
Well, Homer in general — that he’s banned from the ideal republic.
嗯，总的来说，荷马——他被禁止进入理想的共和国。
He’s banned from the second-best ideal in the Republic, right?
他被禁止参与共和国第二好的理想，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
It’s not like Kallipolis — is that necessarily the ideal republic?
它不像卡利波利斯 ——那一定是理想的共和国吗？
It’s a second-best, compromise ideal.
这是一个次优的、妥协的理想。
And Socrates, in that book, says that, of course, both Homer and the tragedians are problematic for several different reasons.
苏格拉底在那本书中说，当然，荷马和悲剧家都因几个不同的原因而存在问题。
It’s both that they water the emotions, which would be better dried up, and also that they make us want to pretend to be in the mindset of a persona of people that we shouldn’t want to be in the persona of.
它们不仅给情感浇水，让情感干涸更好，而且它们让我们想要假装处于我们不应该处于的人的心态中。
And also, they’re not representing reality.
而且，它们并不代表现实。
Isn’t the underworld also too dreary for heroes?
对于英雄来说，黑社会不也太悲惨了吗？
It’s also too dreary.
这也太凄凉了。
Also, of course, the gods behave abysmally in Homer.
当然，在荷马史诗中，众神也表现得很糟糕。
So for all these reasons, it’s both theologically and ethically and psychologically — and also metaphysically — wrong.
因此，出于所有这些原因，它在神学上、伦理学上、心理学上——以及形而上学上——都是错误的。
Which is actually your worry.
这实际上是你担心的。
I don’t agree with any of those.
我不同意其中任何一个。
You don’t agree with any.
你不同意任何一个。
I think Homer is psychologically truthful and ethically helpful.
我认为荷马在心理上是真实的，在道德上是有帮助的。
The whole question about, “Is it literature’s job or poetry’s job to train a politician?” — I’m not sure that’s quite the right way to see it.
整个问题是：“培养政治家是文学的工作还是诗歌的工作？” — 我不确定这样的看待方式是否正确。
By inhabiting worldviews which aren’t our own, we can grow in some way, which doesn’t necessarily have to be, “I agree with x, y, z political gnomon that’s articulated in this line or that line of Homer.” It’s a limiting way of reading a poem.
通过接受不属于我们自己的世界观，我们可以以某种方式成长，但这不一定是“我同意荷马的这一行或那行所阐述的 x、y、z 政治指针”。这是阅读诗歌的一种有限方式。
But say you’re trying to steel-man Socrates and/or Plato — whoever you think is responsible.
但是假设你正在尝试钢铁侠苏格拉底和/或柏拉图——无论你认为是谁负责。
They were pretty smart people, so they thought this for some reason.
他们都是非常聪明的人，所以他们出于某种原因这么想。
What’s the critique of Homer that makes the most sense to you, even if you reject it?
即使你拒绝接受，对你来说最有意义的荷马批评是什么？
I think the critique of Homer that makes the most sense to me is to do with .
我认为对我来说最有意义的对荷马的批评与。
.
。
.
。
there is some intense valorizing — even though there’s also questioning of that valorizing of the warrior code — whereby you get maximized honor by killing as many people as possible, which doesn’t seem to me a particularly good model for how a community should function, that we should be thinking that that level of military prowess should be put quite so high on the evaluative scale.
有一些强烈的价值评估——尽管也有人对武士守则的价值评估提出质疑，通过这种方式，你可以通过杀死尽可能多的人来获得最大的荣誉，在我看来，这并不是一个社区如何运作的特别好的模型，我们应该认为军事实力的水平应该在评估尺度上放在如此高的位置。
Once Odysseus returns home, why does it take so long for the whole plot of revenge to unfold?
奥德修斯回家后，为什么整个复仇情节要花这么长时间才展开？
This has bothered me.
这让我很烦恼。
You expect a fairly swift ending, but there’s book after book after book, and still the suitors aren’t dead.
你期待一个相当快的结局，但有一本书又一本书，而追求者仍然没有死。
What role is that playing in the exposition of the story?
它在故事的阐述中扮演什么角色？
What should we infer from that?
我们应该从中推断出什么？
You’re absolutely right.
你说得完全正确。
Odysseus gets back home geographically in book 13, and yet the poem isn’t over.
在第 13 卷中，奥德修斯回到了家乡，但这首诗还没有结束。
We’ve still got a whole half of the poem to go.
我们还有整整一半的诗要写。
We’ve still got another almost 12 books.
我们还有另外近 12 本书。
I think it has to do both with the poet’s self-glorification: “Look how amazing this is that I can spin out the story of a nostos, of a journey home, such that it isn’t even about the journey anymore.” It’s about all these elaborately different recognitions between Odysseus and each important member of the household.
我认为这与诗人的自我美化有关：“看看我能编出一个关于故乡、关于回家之旅的故事，这真是太神奇了，以至于它甚至不再是关于旅程的了。”这是关于奥德修斯和家庭中每个重要成员之间所有这些精心设计的不同认识。
It’s also about Athena’s plot.
这也是关于雅典娜的阴谋。
Athena’s plot is to glorify herself and her special mortal.
雅典娜的阴谋是为了荣耀她自己和她特殊的凡人。
The best way to glorify Odysseus is not just to have the maximum body count, but also to do it in a way that’s as massive — both temporally and geographically — as possible, where she’s spinning it out so it’s even more impressive.
颂扬奥德修斯的最好方法不仅是拥有最大的死亡人数，而且还要以尽可能大规模的方式来实现，无论是在时间上还是在地理上，她都将其旋转出来，因此更加令人印象深刻。
“Look how your hero got home in only a year or two years.
“看看你的英雄是如何在短短一两年内回家的。
My hero took 20 years to get home, and then look how he managed to come back from this absolute loser position of being one man against over a hundred, looking like an old beggar.” And so on.
我的英雄花了20年才回家，然后看看他是如何从一个人对抗一百多个人的绝对失败者的位置中回来的，看起来就像一个老乞丐。”等等。
It means the whole narrative arc is all the bigger, the longer it takes.
这意味着整个叙事弧线越大，花费的时间就越长。
What kinds of people, if you had to generalize, prefer the Iliad to the Odyssey?
如果硬要概括的话，什么样的人更喜欢《伊利亚特》而不是《奥德赛》？
What’s that preference correlated with, empirically?
从经验上看，这种偏好与什么相关？
I think it’s about mood, partly.
我认为这在一定程度上与情绪有关。
The Odyssey is much more varied just in terms of scenes.
仅就场景而言，《奥德赛》就更加多样化。
If you’re easily bored, you may prefer the Odyssey because it has more different characters, more different scenes, more different types of things happen.
如果你很容易感到无聊，你可能更喜欢奥德赛，因为它有更多不同的角色，更多不同的场景，更多不同类型的事情发生。
In the Iliad, it’s some men are angry, some people get killed, some men are angry, some people get killed.
在《伊利亚特》中，有些人愤怒，有些人被杀，有些人愤怒，有些人被杀。
It’s that, relentlessly, over and over and over.
就是这样，无情地，一遍又一遍。
And it’s in this very, very small space, small stretch of time, whereas the Odyssey has far more variety in terms of what kinds of people are speaking, what kinds of events are happening.
而且它是在一个非常非常小的空间、很短的时间段内，而《奥德赛》在说话的人、发生的事件方面有更多的多样性。
Is it fair to say that throughout most of the history of Western criticism, earlier critics preferred the Iliad to the Odyssey, even though the Odyssey, I would say, is clearly superior?
可以公平地说，在西方批评的大部分历史中，早期的批评家更喜欢《伊利亚特》而不是《奥德赛》，尽管我想说，《奥德赛》显然更优越？
I wouldn’t agree that the Odyssey is superior.
我不同意奥德赛更优越。
But why this earlier preference?
但为什么会出现这种早期偏好呢？
I’m not sure that everybody did.
我不确定每个人都这么做了。
Dryden criticizes the Iliad for being too warmongering, for it being too much — and Homer, for the same reasons.
德莱顿批评《伊利亚特》过于好战，因为它太过分了——而荷马也是出于同样的原因。
It’s not like it’s been a universal preference of the Iliad over the Odyssey until the 20th century, when it all changed around, though I think maybe that is part of the trend.
直到20世纪，人们普遍偏爱《伊利亚特》而不是《奥德赛》，直到那时一切都发生了变化，尽管我认为这也许是趋势的一部分。
So, Longinus, Pseudo-Longinus, in On the Sublime, says that the Iliad is like Homer is at the height of his power, and then the Odyssey is like the setting sun.
所以，朗吉努斯，伪朗吉努斯，在《论崇高》中说，《伊利亚特》就像荷马的巅峰，而《奥德赛》就像夕阳。
It’s the old man’s poem.
这是老人的诗。
It has all these cute incidents.
它有所有这些可爱的事件。
It’s like a poem where you learn about character rather than learning about this very, very intense dramatic arc.
这就像一首诗，你可以在其中了解人物，而不是了解这种非常非常强烈的戏剧性弧线。
So, I think it’s partly about thinking a poem of warfare, with fewer female characters, is more impressive, more important than a poem which is more domestic and has more to do with survival than with killing.
所以，我认为这在一定程度上是因为认为一首女性角色较少的战争诗比一首更家庭化、更多地与生存有关而不是与杀戮有关的诗更令人印象深刻、更重要。
Beyond that, I’m not sure.
除此之外，我不确定。
They were both very highly valued in most periods of antiquity.
在古代的大部分时期，它们都受到高度重视。
It’s not like people skipped the Odyssey.
人们并不是跳过了奥德赛。
I’m noticing a trend lately.
我最近注意到一个趋势。
Madeline Miller has a best seller with Circe.
马德琳·米勒（Madeline Miller）有一本畅销书《瑟茜》（Circe）。
Pat Barker has The Silence of the Girls, which is a takeoff of the Iliad.
帕特·巴克（Pat Barker）的《女孩的沉默》是《伊利亚特》的翻版。
Margaret Atwood, a few years earlier, had her retelling of Penelope’s tale.
几年前，玛格丽特·阿特伍德重述了佩内洛普的故事。
Why is this a trend now?
为什么现在这是一个趋势？
Well, The Penelopiad — I can’t remember what date it is, but it’s about 20 years old.
嗯，《珀涅罗珀》 —— 我不记得具体日期了，但大概有 20 年了。
But you’re right that there are a lot of retellings of myth right now, and I think part of it has to do with a sort of turning back to possible alternative archetypes: “We don’t quite know what to do with the great religious books, so let’s look for something else which has cultural authority.” And it’s going to be meaningful and recognizable to many, many different people from different religious traditions.
但你说得对，现在有很多神话的重述，我认为其中一部分与回归可能的替代原型有关：“我们不太知道如何处理伟大的宗教书籍，所以让我们寻找其他具有文化权威的东西。”对于来自不同宗教传统的许多不同的人来说，这将是有意义和可识别的。
And we can somehow have a space of cultural sharedness over that.
我们可以以某种方式拥有一个文化共享的空间。
Are you going to do one?
你打算做一个吗？
The Iliad?
伊利亚特？
Yes, I’m doing the Iliad.
是的，我正在写《伊利亚特》。
No, not a translation, but a fictional derivation.
不，不是翻译，而是虚构的衍生。
I’ve thought about it.
我考虑过。
I’m not ready to do it right now.
我现在还没有准备好这样做。
I don’t have a good, big concept, but maybe one day.
我没有一个好的、大的概念，但也许有一天。
What’s your view on who Homer was?
您对荷马是谁有什么看法？
How much oral tradition?
口头传统有多少？
How much a single mastermind, a group of editors, one final finisher?
一个策划者、一群编辑、一个最终完成者需要多少钱？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
They’re written poems, so obviously the puzzle is, how did these written poems come into being?
它们是写成的诗，所以显然令人困惑的是，这些写成的诗是如何形成的？
I feel that the writing must have been involved in the composition, not just in the recording of something which was already present entire in one genius’s mind, because I think having something present entire without any use of writing that’s as monumental as these poems are seems to me implausible.
我觉得写作一定是参与到作曲中的，而不仅仅是记录一个天才头脑中已经完整存在的东西，因为我认为，在没有使用像这些诗一样具有纪念意义的写作的情况下完整地呈现一些东西，在我看来是难以置信的。
Beyond that, I don’t really have a clear view about, was it a pair of people?
除此之外，我也不太清楚，这是不是两个人？
Was it a single person?
是一个人吗？
Did the same person do the Iliad and the Odyssey?
《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》是同一个人写的吗？
I don’t see how we could possibly know that.
我不明白我们怎么可能知道这一点。
I think they’re very different poems, but I also think the chances are that the Odyssey seems to be composed with some kind of awareness of the Iliad, but to what extent can that fully be proved?
我认为它们是非常不同的诗，但我也认为《奥德赛》很可能是在某种对《伊利亚特》的意识下创作的，但这到什么程度才能得到充分证明呢？
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
Can’t software tell us if it’s the same author?
软件不能告诉我们是否是同一作者吗？
No, no. It can tell us that there are linguistic differences, which we already knew, but then there are linguistic differences partly because they’re different poems.
不，不。它可以告诉我们存在语言差异，这是我们已经知道的，但存在语言差异的部分原因是它们是不同的诗歌。
Also, author might not be the right term.
此外，作者可能不是正确的术语。
If we’re imagining that it could be an oral poet who’s collaborating with a scribe, is that an author?
如果我们想象它可能是一位与抄写员合作的口头诗人，那是一位作家吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Do we know anything about why Mycenaean civilization declined?
我们知道迈锡尼文明为何衰落吗？
There are different theories about that.
对此有不同的理论。
There seems to have been various cataclysmic events.
似乎发生了各种灾难性事件。
There may have been weather events.
可能有天气事件。
There were clearly conflicts.
显然存在冲突。
There were clearly sieges and sackings of cities, but —
显然存在对城市的围攻和洗劫，但是——
So, war and environment?
那么，战争和环境呢？
Is that your best guess?
这是你最好的猜测吗？
War and environment seems to be the best guess, but I’m just echoing what I’ve learned from archaeologists.
战争和环境似乎是最好的猜测，但我只是重复我从考古学家那里学到的东西。
It’s not like I’ve actually excavated at any of these cities.
我并没有在这些城市中进行过真正的挖掘。
You think that’s not very good evidence, then?
那么你认为这不是很好的证据吗？
It’s a guess?
这是一个猜测？
Oh, no, I’m just saying that I can’t speak from personal digging, but that seems to be what happened.
哦，不，我只是说我不能从个人挖掘角度说话，但似乎确实发生了这样的事情。
It seems to be the combination of war, environment, and who knows what.
这似乎是战争、环境和谁知道什么的结合。
Chance as well, presumably.
估计也是有机会的。
Moving forward a number of centuries in time, how well did ancient Athenian democracy work in terms of accountability?
几个世纪过去了，古代雅典的民主制度在问责制方面表现如何？
Were rulers accountable to those who could vote?
统治者对那些有投票权的人负责吗？
Or did they just do what they wanted?
或者他们只是做了他们想做的事？
How should we understand or model that system?
我们应该如何理解或建模该系统？
How should we model that?
我们应该如何建模？
You mean, how should we imagine it?
你的意思是，我们应该如何想象呢？
Or how should we —
或者我们应该如何——
Well, is it like a democracy, but simply fewer people vote and the rulers are responsive to public opinion?
那么，这是否像民主国家一样，只是投票人数较少而统治者对民意做出反应？
Or does the agenda setter have all the power?
还是议程制定者拥有所有权力？
What’s your vision of how ancient Athenian democracy, at its peak, worked?
您对鼎盛时期的古代雅典民主制度如何运作有何看法？
For those who were citizens, it was, in a way, much more democratic than our system — which is representational democracy — because, of course, everybody who was a citizen had a voice in the assembly, was able to speak directly to those who were in power.
对于那些公民来说，它在某种程度上比我们的制度——“代议制民主”——要民主得多——因为，当然，每个公民在议会中都有发言权，能够直接与当权者交谈。
Several offices were elected by lot, such that anybody, regardless of background — aristocratic or not aristocratic background, or regardless of wealth — could, in theory, become one of the generals or one of the leaders of the assembly.
一些职位是通过抽签选出的，因此，任何人，无论背景如何——无论贵族或非贵族背景，或无论财富如何——理论上都可以成为将军之一或议会的领导人之一。
Of course, also, it was a tiny fraction of the population of Athens that was a citizen.
当然，雅典人口中只有一小部分是公民。
Of course, most of the population were enslaved and were not citizens.
当然，大多数人口都是奴隶，不是公民。
Women weren’t being appointed to be generals or leaders in the assembly.
女性没有被任命为议会中的将军或领导人。
The critique that many of our sources from Athens are, in a number of different ways, hostile to democracy — the critique that you find in Plato, for example — has a lot to do with the idea that, because it depends so much on the will of the people, and the people aren’t necessarily educated people, they’re easily swayed by demagoguery.
我们来自雅典的许多资料都以多种不同的方式对民主怀有敌意——比如你在柏拉图那里发现的批评——与这样一种观点有很大关系，因为民主很大程度上取决于人民的意愿，而人民不一定是受过教育的人，所以他们很容易受到煽动的影响。
And, of course, in an age of the internet, we can see how people are still easily swayed by all kinds of different voices.
当然，在互联网时代，我们可以看到人们仍然很容易被各种不同的声音左右。
Should we consider electing politicians by lot today?
今天我们是否应该考虑以抽签方式选举政治家？
Is it such a crazy idea?
这是一个疯狂的想法吗？
I think it’s a great idea.
我认为这是个好主意。
Great idea?
好主意？
Yes, yeah.
是的，是的。
Classics enrollment — as you know, at many schools, it’s been declining for maybe 20 years or more.
古典文学入学率——正如你所知，在许多学校，入学率可能在 20 年或更长时间里一直在下降。
Do you think classics, as a distinct field of study, will still exist in 30 years?
您认为古典学作为一个独特的研究领域，30年后还会存在吗？
And what will it look like?
它会是什么样子？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I think it’s going to have to look different because you’re right that enrollments are declining.
我认为情况必须有所不同，因为你说的入学人数正在下降是对的。
There’s also a lot of questioning from within, by classicists, about the elitist legacy of classics, about the ways that it’s been tied up with the people who end up being classicists — especially in Britain, but this is true in the States, too — are those who’ve gone to the fancy private schools and have learned Latin since they were five years old.
古典主义者也从内部提出了很多质疑，质疑古典学的精英主义遗产，质疑它与最终成为古典主义者的人们的联系方式——尤其是在英国，但在美国也是如此——这些人从五岁起就在高档私立学校学习拉丁语。
Then, it’s sort of tied up with being of a particular class means that you can speak Latin or you can read Latin.
然后，它与某个特定类别有关，意味着您可以说拉丁语或可以阅读拉丁语。
If we can’t give a better reason to learn Latin or Greek, or to read the ancient texts, than this is going to be entry to a particular social class within our own society — which it no longer is — then, of course, that’s not going to be a good reason for people in the future.
如果我们不能给出更好的理由来学习拉丁语或希腊语，或者阅读古代文本，那么这将成为我们自己社会中进入特定社会阶层的理由——“现在它不再是”——那么，这当然不会成为未来人们的一个好理由。
Say we elect you by lot to be in charge of all classics education.
假设我们通过抽签选举你来负责所有的经典教育。
What would you do?
你会怎么办？
What would you change?
你会改变什么？
I would try and find ways to make it both more attractive and more inclusive to people from different backgrounds.
我会尝试寻找方法，使其对来自不同背景的人更具吸引力和包容性。
I would talk to more different people about what it might be that might entice them to learn about cultures and languages that are totally different from any that are nowadays extant.
我会与更多不同的人讨论什么可能会吸引他们去了解与当今现存的文化和语言完全不同的文化和语言。
I think we should stop selling classics as, “These are the societies that formed modern America, or that formed the Western canon” — which is a really bogus kind of argument — and instead start saying, “We should learn about ancient societies because they’re different from modern societies.” That means that we can learn things by learning about alterity.
我认为我们应该停止推销经典，“这些社会形成了现代美国，或者形成了西方经典”——“这真是一种虚假的论点”——而是开始说，“我们应该了解古代社会，因为它们与现代社会不同。”这意味着我们可以通过了解相异性来学习东西。
We can learn about what would it be to be just as human as we are, and yet be living in a very, very different society.
我们可以了解，像我们一样是人类，但生活在一个非常非常不同的社会中会是什么样子。
I think we should stop selling classics as, “These are the societies that formed modern America, or that formed the Western canon” — which is a really bogus kind of argument — and instead start saying, “We should learn about ancient societies because they’re different from modern societies.” That means that we can learn things by learning about alterity.
我认为我们应该停止推销经典，“这些社会形成了现代美国，或者形成了西方经典”——“这真是一种虚假的论点”——而是开始说，“我们应该了解古代社会，因为它们与现代社会不同。”这意味着我们可以通过了解相异性来学习东西。
We can learn about what would it be to be just as human as we are, and yet be living in a very, very different society.
我们可以了解，像我们一样是人类，但生活在一个非常非常不同的社会中会是什么样子。
On Seneca
塞内卡河畔
Now, you have another well-known book.
现在，你有了另一本著名的书。
It’s called Seneca: A Life.
这就是《塞内卡：一生》。
On reading it, this is my reaction: why are the Stoics so hypocritical?
读完这本书后，我的反应是：为什么斯多葛学派如此虚伪？
Seneca spends his life sucking up to power.
塞内卡一生都在讨好权力。
He’s very well off, extremely political, and possibly involved in murder plots, right?
他非常富有，非常政治化，并且可能参与谋杀阴谋，对吗？
Yes, that’s right.
是的，没错。
Yes.
是的。
What is there about Stoicism?
斯多葛主义有什么？
Marcus Aurelius is somewhat bloodthirsty, it seems.
马可·奥勒留似乎有些嗜血。
So, are the Stoics all just hypocrites, and they wrote this to cover over their wrongdoings?
那么，斯多葛派的人都是伪君子吗？他们写这篇文章是为了掩盖自己的错误吗？
Or how should we think about the actual history of Stoicism?
或者我们应该如何思考斯多葛主义的真实历史？
I see Seneca and Marcus Aurelius as very, very different characters.
我认为塞内卡和马可·奥勒留是非常非常不同的人物。
Marcus Aurelius was militaristic, bloodthirsty, and an expander of the Roman Empire.
马库斯·奥勒留是一个军国主义、嗜血的人，也是罗马帝国的扩张者。
He was happy to slaughter many barbarians.
他很高兴能够屠杀许多野蛮人。
He was fairly consistent about thinking that was a good idea, and also fairly consistent in associating his dream of culture and military imperialism with Stoic models of virtue.
他相当一致地认为这是一个好主意，也相当一致地将他的文化和军事帝国主义梦想与斯多葛派的美德模式联系起来。
Whereas Seneca was very much constantly unable to fully act out the ideals that he had.
而塞内卡却常常无法完全实现他的理想。
One of the reasons he’s so interesting as a writer is that he’s so precise in articulating what it means to have a very, very clear vision of the good life and to be completely unable to follow through on living the good life.
他作为一名作家如此有趣的原因之一是，他如此精确地阐明了对美好生活有非常非常清晰的愿景以及完全无法实现美好生活意味着什么。
But why would you accumulate so much wealth if you’re a true Stoic?
但如果你是一个真正的斯多葛主义者，为什么你会积累这么多财富呢？
I personally don’t think you would, but Seneca has a lot of very wonderfully rhetorically ornate explanations for why, in fact, that’s perfectly reasonable because Stoics had this distinction: There were things that aren’t good in themselves.
我个人认为你不会，但塞内卡有很多非常精彩的修辞华丽的解释，事实上，这是完全合理的，因为斯多葛学派有这样的区别：有些事情本身并不好。
The main thing that’s good in itself is virtue, being a good person.
善本身最主要的就是德，就是做一个好人。
The thing that’s bad in itself is being a bad person.
坏事本身就是坏事。
But then there are also things in the middle, which are neither good nor bad but might be preferable.
但也有一些介于两者之间的事情，既不好也不坏，但可能更好。
It might be preferable not to be a slave, or it might be preferable not to be homeless and impoverished.
最好不要成为奴隶，或者最好不要无家可归和贫困。
And it might be preferable to have millions and billions of dollars.
拥有数百万和数十亿美元可能会更好。
So it’s not that it’s actually bad, as long as you can hang onto virtue despite being in the midst of corrupting power then, or even better —
所以其实并不是不好，只要你在腐败的权力中还能守住德，甚至更好——
Are you surprised that so much of Silicon Valley has turned to the Stoics or their vision of the Stoics?
对于如此多的硅谷人转向斯多葛学派或他们对斯多葛学派的看法，您是否感到惊讶？
Not at all.
一点也不。
I think it fits very well.
我认为它非常适合。
Yes.
是的。
What’s the hardest thing about translating Seneca?
翻译塞内卡最困难的事情是什么？
I translated most of Seneca’s tragedies rather than his prose, but I think the same issues would apply for both.
我翻译了塞内卡的大部分悲剧，而不是他的散文，但我认为同样的问题对两者都适用。
I had a hard time figuring out how much I could get away with pulling out all the stops rhetorically because he writes in this wonderfully ornate, purple style.
我很难弄清楚我可以在多大程度上竭尽全力修辞，因为他以这种华丽华丽的紫色风格写作。
It’s showing off, showing off, showing off, bombast.
就是炫耀、炫耀、炫耀、夸夸其谈。
The risk is always that it’s going to come across as too silly to be impressive.
风险始终在于它会被认为太愚蠢而无法令人印象深刻。
It has to go very close to sounding silly, but without quite getting there.
它必须非常接近听起来很愚蠢，但还没有完全实现。
Do you think Seneca had a role in the murder of the emperor’s wife?
您认为塞内卡在谋杀皇帝妻子中扮演了角色吗？
I think he probably knew about it.
我想他可能知道这件事。
I don’t know if he actually got his hands bloody or wet, but I think he probably knew about it.
我不知道他的手是否真的沾满了血或湿了，但我想他可能知道这一点。
Socrates — you’ve written on Socrates.
苏格拉底 — 你写过关于苏格拉底的文章。
Are Socratic ideals in decline today?
苏格拉底的理想如今正在衰落吗？
Here we are having a conversation.
我们正在这里进行对话。
Look at us being so Socratic.
看看我们真是苏格拉底式的。
It’s so hard to say what are Socratic ideals because, of course, Socrates didn’t write anything.
很难说苏格拉底的理想是什么，因为当然，苏格拉底什么也没写。
Everything, as we have referred to earlier — we were talking about the Republic — that’s Plato’s Socrates.
一切，正如我们之前提到的——“我们谈论的是共和国”——“那就是柏拉图的苏格拉底”。
It’s not necessarily Socrates’s Socrates, or history’s Socrates.
不一定是苏格拉底的苏格拉底，也不一定是历史的苏格拉底。
Insofar as the Athenians voted to have Socrates drink the hemlock, you could say, “Well, maybe that was the low point of Socratic ideals, back then in 399.
就雅典人投票让苏格拉底喝铁杉而言，你可以说，“好吧，也许那是苏格拉底理想的最低点，当时是在 399 年。
Maybe it’s all been up since then.”
也许一切都是从那时起的。”
What does the dying Socrates mean to you personally?
垂死的苏格拉底对你个人来说意味着什么？
Someone you admire?
你欣赏的人吗？
Someone you think, “He’s a fool”?
你认为“他是个傻瓜”的人吗？
Someone who was a martyr, a precursor of a Christ figure?
某个烈士、基督形象的先驱？
Or —
或者——
I deeply admire him, with some serious reservations.
我深深地钦佩他，但也有一些严重的保留。
The reason I’m constantly turned back to thinking about him — partly because as an academic and also as a writer, I’m constantly thinking about, “What does it actually mean to try to educate people?”
我之所以不断地回想起他，部分是因为作为一名学者和作家，我不断地思考：“尝试教育人们到底意味着什么？”
I’m interested in the Socrates who claims that he isn’t teaching anybody anything, and yet he’s living this life of being engaged in conversations which are clearly designed to either draw things out of people or else put things into them insidiously.
我对苏格拉底很感兴趣，他声称自己没有教任何人任何东西，但他却过着从事对话的生活，这些对话显然是为了从人们身上汲取东西，或者阴险地把东西放进去。
So I’m interested in whether all educators are somehow in that double bind of “Am I actually helping you find something out, or am I imposing my own vision on you?”
所以我感兴趣的是，是否所有的教育工作者都在某种程度上陷入了这样的双重困境：“我是真的在帮助你找到一些东西，还是我把自己的愿景强加给你？”
I’m interested, also, in the figure of the dying Socrates as an image.
我对垂死的苏格拉底形象也很感兴趣。
In a way, this is related to the Seneca questions, as an image of integrity.
在某种程度上，这与塞内卡问题有关，作为正直的形象。
What does it mean to live with so much integrity that you can be absolutely yourself at every moment, even when you’ve just poisoned yourself?
正直地生活，让你每时每刻都可以绝对做你自己，即使你刚刚毒害了自己，这意味着什么？
Let’s say I’m a greater fan of Plato.
假设我是柏拉图的忠实粉丝。
He’s a more systematic thinker.
他是一个更加系统化的思想家。
The other versions of Socrates, say from Xenophon — they’re not, to me, very impressive.
苏格拉底的其他版本，比如色诺芬的作品——对我来说，它们并不令人印象深刻。
No, they’re not.
不，他们不是。
They’re okay.
他们没事。
They’re silly, yes.
他们很傻，是的。
Maybe it’s a bit like Boswell and Johnson, where Boswell makes Johnson much better.
也许这有点像博斯韦尔和约翰逊，博斯韦尔让约翰逊变得更好。
Boswell, in some ways, is smarter than Johnson, I would say, or sharper.
我想说，从某些方面来说，博斯韦尔比约翰逊更聪明，或者说更敏锐。
Socrates was just pretty smart, but Plato’s the true philosopher.
苏格拉底只是很聪明，但柏拉图才是真正的哲学家。
Can you talk me out of that?
你能劝我别这样吗？
I think that’s a perfectly reasonable point of view, yes.
我认为这是一个完全合理的观点，是的。
I’m sure that Socrates didn’t have the whole edifice of metaphysics.
我确信苏格拉底并不具备完整的形而上学大厦。
Also, obviously, he wasn’t the enormously impressive literary stylist that Plato is.
而且，显然，他并不是柏拉图那样令人印象深刻的文学文体家。
Plato was both an extraordinary writer and an extraordinary thinker.
柏拉图既是一位非凡的作家，也是一位非凡的思想家。
It does seem as if there’s good evidence — partly because Aristotle seems to confirm this — that Socrates himself did come up with some pretty interesting ideas, such as the idea that nobody willingly does wrong.
似乎确实有充分的证据——部分是因为亚里士多德似乎证实了这一点——苏格拉底本人确实提出了一些非常有趣的想法，例如没有人愿意做错事的想法。
Insofar as anybody does anything wrong, it’s because of a mistake.
就任何人做错事而言，那都是因为错误。
We don’t realize it’s wrong, which I think is actually still something which is worth some ethical, philosophical grappling.
我们没有意识到这是错误的，我认为这实际上仍然值得一些伦理和哲学上的争论。
It’s an idea that’s worth some grappling.
这是一个值得思考的想法。
On overliving
关于过度生活
As you know, your doctoral dissertation — it’s on the concept of “overliving,” as you call it.
如你所知，你的博士论文 ——它是关于“过度生活”的概念，正如你所说的那样。
What is overliving?
什么叫过度生活？
And why is that interesting?
为什么这很有趣？
It’s a term that I took from Paradise Lost by Milton.
这是我从米尔顿的《失乐园》中借用的一个术语。
Adam says, after he’s eaten the apple and he’s fallen, he realizes that the only thing to look forward to is death.
亚当说，当他吃了苹果并跌倒后，他意识到唯一值得期待的就是死亡。
Yet he’s not dead, so it’s a moment when Milton’s character is grappling with what you could see as a continuity error in the book of Genesis, that Adam and Eve don’t die immediately after eating the apple, which was supposed to result from eating the apple.
然而他并没有死，所以在这个时刻，弥尔顿的角色正在努力解决《创世记》中的一个连续性错误，即亚当和夏娃在吃了苹果后并没有立即死亡，而这应该是吃了苹果的结果。
He says, “Why do I ever live?
他说：“我为什么活着？
Why am I marked with death?”
为什么我会被打上死亡标记？”
That comes at a moment in Paradise Lost after the narrator has said, “I now must change my notes to tragic.” I was interested in trying to figure out, why does Milton imagine not death, but a failure to die, as being part of a tragic genre?
这是在《失乐园》中叙述者说“我现在必须把我的笔记改为悲剧”之后的某个时刻。我有兴趣尝试弄清楚，为什么弥尔顿想象的不是死亡，而是未能死去，作为悲剧类型的一部分？
That this sequence of the poem is both tragic and about the failure of Adam and Eve to die right after the fall.
这首诗的这一部分既是悲剧性的，也是关于亚当和夏娃在堕落后未能立即死亡的故事。
I think it’s an interesting idea, just to realize that we have this idea from Shakespeare that, of course, tragedy is all about when you have the heaps of corpses up on the stage at the end of Hamlet.
我认为这是一个有趣的想法，只是要意识到我们从莎士比亚那里得到了这个想法，当然，悲剧就是当你在哈姆雷特结尾的舞台上看到成堆的尸体时。
But, of course, that’s not actually all that tragedy is about, especially if you go all the way back to Athenian tragedy.
但是，当然，这实际上并不是悲剧的全部，特别是如果你一直追溯到雅典悲剧的话。
There’s a number of tragedies in which there aren’t any corpses onstage at the end.
有很多悲剧最后都没有尸体出现在舞台上。
So I’m interested in it, both as thinking through “How does narrative represent death?
所以我对此很感兴趣，同时思考“叙事如何代表死亡？
How does narrative represent the experience of not being dead?” Also, in terms of imagining ‘“What is the tragic genre all about?
叙事如何表现未死的经历？”另外，就想象“悲剧类型到底是什么？
What does it say about both life and death?”
它对生与死有何说法？”
Is there an example of overliving, say, from contemporary popular culture?
例如，当代流行文化中有没有过度生活的例子？
Someone who either has seen, or whose tragic fate is that he or she lived too long?
有人见过，或者他或她的悲惨命运是因为他或她活得太久了？
I’m not going to come up with good examples, so I suppose I should have prepped for that.
我不会举出好的例子，所以我想我应该为此做好准备。
Michael Jackson.
迈克尔·杰克逊。
Yes.
是的。
There’s also postmortem reckoning very often, too.
事后清算也很常见。
The whole Solonic line of “Call no person happy until they’re dead.” Very often, the whole meaning of your life can change, as of course it is right now with Michael Jackson.
索洛尼的全部台词是“没有人在死之前才称得上幸福”。很多时候，你生命的全部意义都会改变，当然，迈克尔·杰克逊现在就是这样。
The legacy can become totally tainted.
遗产可能会被彻底玷污。
Even after you’re gone, history itself can revise the earlier meaning of your life.
即使在你去世之后，历史本身也可以修正你生命早期的意义。
History can change the meaning, yes.
历史可以改变意义，是的。
Would you accept immortality if offered it at your current age and state of health?
如果以你目前的年龄和健康状况提供永生，你会接受吗？
You would be intact as you are today, forever.
你会像今天一样完好无损，直到永远。
Do the people I love get to live forever, too?
我所爱的人也能永远活着吗？
No, just you.
不，只有你。
You have a chance to overlive.
你有机会超活。
Do you want it?
你想要吗？
Can I also create world peace and solve climate change?
我还能创造世界和平并解决气候变化吗？
No, but you do get to live forever, and people might buy even more copies of your books.
不，但你确实可以永远活着，人们可能会购买更多你的书。
Can I change my mind in a couple hundred years?
几百年后我能改变主意吗？
No.
不。
Oh, then I won’t take it.
哦，那我就不接了。
Then you won’t take it?
那你不接吗？
No.
不。
Let’s say you were age 80, and you could be restored to your current physical state.
假设你已经80岁了，你可以恢复到现在的身体状态。
Would you then accept living forever?
那么你会接受永生吗？
I think Thoreau said he wants to take it then.
我想梭罗说他想接受它。
So, sure, I will.
所以，当然，我会的。
Yes.
是的。
What’s the year at which you’re indifferent, where you’re not sure whether or not you’d take it?
哪一年你漠不关心，不确定自己是否愿意接受？
No, I’m kidding.
不，我在开玩笑。
I’m not going to take it.
我不会接受它。
I would take it, I think.
我想我会接受的。
If you took it, do you think you would end up being bored, or are we able to always keep on amusing ourselves as humans?
如果你拿了它，你觉得你最终会感到无聊吗？还是说我们作为人类能够一直自娱自乐呢？
I’d probably keep on amusing myself, but it would probably get hard.
我可能会继续自娱自乐，但这可能会变得很难。
Once there are no more humans left, it’s going to get tough.
一旦人类不复存在，事情就会变得艰难。
Once all the books have rotted, and once .
一旦所有的书都腐烂了，而且一次。
.
。
.
。
I’m not going to be able to run the electrical power plants all by myself.
我无法独自运营发电厂。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
We have a segment in the middle of these conversations called overrated or underrated.
在这些对话中，我们有一个部分被高估或低估。
I’ll toss out a few items, and you give us your opinion if they’re overrated or underrated.
我会扔掉一些项目，如果它们被高估或低估，你可以给我们你的意见。
The fork — overrated or underrated?
分叉 — 被高估还是低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Why?
为什么？
In fact, my sister wrote a book called Consider the Fork.
事实上，我姐姐写了一本书，名叫《考虑叉子》。
I love this book, yes.
我喜欢这本书，是的。
Maybe this is a chance to plug her book.
也许这是一个宣传她的书的机会。
It’s about kitchen technologies and the ways that people eat, given that we have both knives and forks.
这是关于厨房技术和人们的饮食方式，因为我们既有刀子又有叉子。
Before fairly recently, people ate without forks, and it encourages a very different approach to cutting up food into small pieces, and therefore being able to not have an overbite in your jaw.
不久之前，人们不用叉子吃饭，这鼓励人们采用一种非常不同的方法将食物切成小块，从而避免下巴过咬。
The whole model of eating, and even the structure of the face, is different thanks to the fork.
由于叉子的存在，整个吃饭的模式，甚至脸部的结构，都发生了变化。
Caligula — overrated or underrated?
卡利古拉——被高估还是被低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
It’s pretty much at a low.
它几乎处于低位。
It’s not like I think he was great.
我并不认为他很伟大。
Yes.
是的。
But what’s the case for Caligula, so to speak, relative to reputation?
但是，相对于声誉而言，卡利古拉的情况又如何呢？
That he was a pragmatist?
他是一个实用主义者？
He had no choice?
他别无选择？
He had to maintain orderly rule?
他必须维持有序的统治？
He had to maintain orderly rule, and of course, everybody would have said he was absolutely insane and come up with the worst possible excessive stories, even if he actually wasn’t quite as insane as made for a good story.
他必须维持有序的统治，当然，每个人都会说他绝对疯了，并想出最糟糕的过度故事，即使他实际上并不像一个好故事那样疯狂。
Couldn’t he have just been another Tiberius, or was that then impossible politically?
难道他就不能成为另一个提比略吗？或者说这在政治上是不可能的吗？
He probably could have been, but then, psychologically, in terms of his personality, not everybody is Tiberius.
他可能本来可以，但是从心理上，就他的个性而言，并不是每个人都是提比略。
Not everybody wants to just go off and sit on Capri for the rest of their life.
并不是每个人都想离开并在卡普里岛度过余生。
Philip Sidney, the poet and essayist — overrated or underrated?
诗人兼散文家菲利普·西德尼——被高估还是被低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
He’s great.
他很棒。
He’s great.
他很棒。
What do you like about Philip Sidney?
您喜欢菲利普·西德尼的哪些方面？
Are we doing plugs for every member of my family?
我们是否为我的每个家庭成员都提供插头？
If you choose.
如果你选择的话。
Okay, that’s great.
好的，太好了。
My mother, Katherine Duncan-Jones, wrote a very good biography of Sir Philip Sidney, partly explaining why he’s so underrated.
我的母亲凯瑟琳·邓肯-琼斯为菲利普·西德尼爵士写了一本非常好的传记，部分解释了为什么他如此被低估。
I think it’s extraordinary that so many people have read Shakespeare but haven’t read Sidney, who was both a formative influence on Shakespeare and also an extraordinary both poet and prose writer in his own right.
我认为这么多人读过莎士比亚却没有读过西德尼，这是很不寻常的，他既对莎士比亚产生了影响，又是一位非凡的诗人和散文作家。
He wrote two versions of what, in many ways, are the most important early proto-novels in English, The Old Arcadia and The New Arcadia.
他写了两个版本的《旧阿卡迪亚》和《新阿卡迪亚》，从很多方面来说，这都是最重要的早期英语原型小说。
He also wrote an amazing sequence of sonnets called “Astrophel and Stella.” He was a great poet, great writer.
他还写了一系列令人惊叹的十四行诗，名为“阿斯特罗菲尔和斯特拉”。他是一位伟大的诗人、伟大的作家。
Monty Python’s Flying Circus — overrated or underrated?
Monty Python 的飞行马戏团 — 被高估还是低估？
Correctly rated very high.
正确评价非常高。
Okay.
好的。
Philadelphia?
费城？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Love it.
爱它。
How long have you lived here?
你在这里住了多久了？
Oh, 16 or 17 years or something.
哦，16或17岁什么的。
Okay.
好的。
Queen Victoria — overrated or underrated?
维多利亚女王 — 被高估还是低估？
My father, A.
我的父亲，A.
N.
N。
Wilson, wrote a biography about Victoria.
威尔逊写了一本关于维多利亚的传记。
I don’t know about Victoria.
我不了解维多利亚。
I don’t think I have an opinion.
我认为我没有意见。
Maybe it can stay in the middle, yes?
也许它可以留在中间，是吗？
In the middle?
在中间？
In the middle.
在中间。
Bad on imperialism, but good for European peace?
对帝国主义不利，但对欧洲和平有利？
That kind of thing exactly, yes.
正是这样的事情，是的。
On Greek texts
关于希腊文本
Here’s a question from a reader about translation: “Greek morphology is a nightmare, but syntax is relatively easy.
这是一位读者关于翻译的问题：“希腊词法是一场噩梦，但语法相对简单。
Latin is opposite.
拉丁语则相反。
So Latin is more of an intellectual language.
所以拉丁语更像是一种智力语言。
Agree or disagree?”
同意还是不同意？”
I don’t think it follows that difficulty of syntax implies intellectuality of ideas or concepts or anything else.
我不认为语法的困难意味着思想、概念或其他任何东西的智力。
I think they require different kinds of thinking.
我认为他们需要不同的思维。
As artificial intelligence advances and there are more online resources, what will translation even mean in that future world?
随着人工智能的进步和更多的在线资源，翻译在未来的世界中意味着什么？
Will we keep on learning other languages?
我们会继续学习其他语言吗？
I hope so.
我希望如此。
It’s a great shame that so many languages are dying right now.
如此多的语言正在消亡，这是一个巨大的耻辱。
I think in every language, you think differently.
我认为在每种语言中，你的想法都是不同的。
You see the world differently.
你以不同的方式看待世界。
So the fewer languages that are known by anybody on Earth, the fewer visions that we have of what life’s about, the fewer ways of thinking.
因此，地球上任何人懂得的语言越少，我们对生活的看法就越少，思维方式也就越少。
Other than ancient Greek and Latin, what languages interest you?
除了古希腊语和拉丁语之外，您还对哪些语言感兴趣？
Lots of languages I don’t know, but as I’m not going to have time, thanks to my refusal of your lovely offer of immortality —
我不懂很多语言，但由于我拒绝了你关于永生的可爱提议，所以我没有时间了——
Wilson: That’s, in fact, something I would do if I had time.
威尔逊：事实上，如果我有时间的话，我会这么做。
You could learn them all, right?
你可以全部学会，对吧？
I would learn them all, for sure.
我肯定会把它们全部学会。
I don’t know any Asian languages.
我不懂任何亚洲语言。
I feel guilty about that.
我对此感到内疚。
I know one semester’s worth of Russian.
我懂一个学期的俄语。
I read French, German, Italian, a little bit of Spanish.
我读法语、德语、意大利语，还有一点西班牙语。
My daughters go to a Spanish immersion school, so I know elementary-school Spanish.
我的女儿们在一所西班牙语浸入式学校上学，所以我懂小学西班牙语。
But I’d love to know some languages which are more different from those I do know.
但我很想知道一些与我所知道的语言更不同的语言。
I’d love to know Chinese, Japanese.
我很想认识中文、日语。
Arabic would be great.
阿拉伯语会很棒。
Here’s another reader question about translation: “Could you please ask her about home?
这是另一个关于翻译的读者问题：“你能问她关于家的事吗？
Her translation pulls this word to the foreground more than I remember other translations doing, and that decision made me read the text differently.
她的翻译比我记忆中的其他翻译更将这个词拉到了前台，这个决定让我以不同的方式阅读文本。
It also made me realize that home is not a concept that I interrogate nearly as much as I should.”
这也让我意识到，家并不是一个我应该质疑的概念。”
So, I’m asking you about home.
所以，我问你关于家的事。
I love that question.
我喜欢这个问题。
The Greek text has a lot of uses of the noun nostos, from which we get nostalgia, the journey of homecoming, the event of homecoming, and then of cognate words.
希腊语文本中有很多名词 nostos 的用法，从中我们得到怀旧之情、返乡之旅、返乡事件，以及同源词。
I wanted to use the word home as a way of signaling the centrality of the concept of home, and of defining the concept of home in the poem.
我想用“家”这个词来表达“家”概念的中心地位，并在诗中定义“家”的概念。
It’s already a very loaded word in English, I think.
我认为，这在英语中已经是一个非常有内涵的词了。
It’s a word which means so much more than just house or place where you live.
这个词的含义不仅仅是房子或你居住的地方。
The Odyssey is fascinating in the ways that it defines home as something which involves both a living space, a particular kind of community, and a space where at least one member of the household has the choice about who to keep in, who to keep out.
《奥德赛》的迷人之处在于它将家定义为既涉及生活空间、特定类型的社区，又涉及至少一个家庭成员可以选择让谁留在里面、把谁排除在外的空间。
You’re working now on a translation of the Iliad.
您现在正在翻译《伊利亚特》。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
That’s correct, yes.
没错，是的。
Is that easier or harder than translating the Odyssey?
这比翻译《奥德赛》更容易还是更难？
Well, I started doing it almost right away after I finished the Odyssey because I thought, “I’m on a roll now.
好吧，我在完成《奥德赛》后几乎立即开始这样做，因为我想，“我现在进展顺利。
It’s not that different in terms of language than the Odyssey.” Then I got really stuck.
就语言而言，它与《奥德赛》并没有太大不同。”然后我就真的陷入困境了。
For the first few months that I was working on it, I was feeling completely stuck and questioning everything because the mood of the poem is so different.
在我写这首诗的最初几个月里，我感到完全陷入困境并质疑一切，因为这首诗的情绪是如此不同。
It’s not all that different linguistically, but it’s different enough that I felt I had to step back and think differently about everything I’d already done.
从语言上来说，这并没有那么不同，但它的不同足以让我觉得我必须退后一步，以不同的方式思考我已经做过的一切。
For the Odyssey, I used iambic pentameter all the way through.
在《奥德赛》中，我自始至终都使用抑扬格五音步。
I also made it line-for-line, and I started thinking, “Should I do something completely different?
我也逐行制作了它，然后我开始思考，“我应该做一些完全不同的事情吗？
Should I use hexameters?
我应该使用六音步吗？
Should I use dactyls rather than iambs?” I think I’m back to iambic pentameter, but it’s been through a lot of different struggles and a lot of drafts of different ways of doing it stylistically, poetically.
我应该使用dactyls 而不是iambs 吗？”我想我又回到了抑扬格五音步，但它经历了很多不同的斗争，也经历了很多不同风格、诗意方式的草稿。
What’s the process you go through to improve your translation?
为了改进翻译，您经历了哪些过程？
Is it you show it to people?
是你给人们看的吗？
You simply let it sit?
你只是让它坐着吗？
You compare it to other texts?
你把它与其他文本进行比较吗？
You evaluate it as poetry?
你评价它是诗吗？
What do you do to have it become better?
你要做什么才能让它变得更好？
I usually do a lot of reading and rereading the original, and then I usually write a draft of a little bit out in a notebook.
我通常会大量阅读并重读原著，然后我通常会在笔记本上写下一些草稿。
I do a lot of looking up different words in different dictionaries and trying to figure out connotations.
我在不同的词典中查找了很多不同的单词并试图找出含义。
I read my drafts out loud to myself before I read them out loud to anyone else.
在向其他人大声朗读草稿之前，我先向自己大声朗读草稿。
Then I fix things and change things and try and change things that didn’t sound right.
然后我修复一些事情，改变一些事情，并尝试改变那些听起来不对的事情。
Then I change them again.
然后我再次更改它们。
Then, after I’ve tinkered with it for a long time myself, once I’ve got a whole complete book, I send the complete book to my lovely editor at Norton, Pete Simon.
然后，在我自己修改了很长时间之后，一旦我有了一本完整的书，我就把整本书寄给我可爱的诺顿编辑皮特·西蒙。
He doesn’t know Greek, but he looks at it next to other translations and thinks about, “Does this sentence work as an English sentence?”
他不懂希腊语，但他看着它和其他翻译并思考，“这句话可以作为英语句子吗？”
Then he sends it back, and then I reread it again, and I fix lots of things, including things he hadn’t commented on.
然后他把它发回来，然后我又重读了一遍，我修复了很多东西，包括他没有评论的东西。
Then eventually I share it with other people as well.
最后我也与其他人分享。
I go through multiple stages of revisions.
我经历了多个阶段的修改。
I have the impression that you’re using Twitter, in some ways, to revolutionize how people discuss and present translation.
我的印象是，您使用 Twitter 在某些方面彻底改变了人们讨论和呈现翻译的方式。
Is that a fair assessment of what you’re up to?
这是对你所做事情的公平评估吗？
Yes, I think there are some misunderstandings about translation that are really common, so I’m trying to articulate this sort of Translation 101 to the Twitterverse.
是的，我认为对翻译的一些误解确实很常见，所以我试图将这种翻译 101 与 Twitter 世界联系起来。
And how do you do that in 280 characters?
那么如何在 280 个字符中做到这一点呢？
I don’t —
我不——
Is it all tweetstorm?
都是推特风暴吗？
Or embedded photos?
或者嵌入照片？
What’s your method of using Twitter?
你使用 Twitter 的方法是什么？
I do have some cat photos as well.
我也有一些猫的照片。
My method, though, about translation is to take a tiny bit of mostly the Odyssey, but occasionally some other texts, and analyze what different translators — usually, if it’s the Odyssey, including me — have done with it, and just show how very, very different the meaning of a sentence can be, depending on how exactly a translator chooses one word versus another word, and how there can be very, very different interpretations, all of which are valid readings of the Greek.
不过，我关于翻译的方法是，主要是取《奥德赛》的一小部分，但偶尔也取一些其他文本，并分析不同的译者 ——通常，如果是《奥德赛》，包括我在内 ——对它所做的工作，然后展示一个句子的含义有多么非常、非常不同，这取决于译者如何准确地选择一个词与另一个词，以及如何有非常、非常不同的解释，所有这些都是有效的希腊语读物。
What do you think translation teaches us, or you in particular?
您认为翻译教会了我们什么，特别是您？
Say I were to talk with an ancient historian about Periclean Athens.
假设我要与一位古代历史学家谈论伯里克利雅典。
Or I could speak with you, and you’ve done translating of ancient Greek or of Homer’s time.
或者我可以和你谈谈，而你已经完成了古希腊语或荷马时代的翻译。
What perspectives are you likely to have on those periods that, say, an ancient historian would not?
对于那些时期，你可能有哪些观点是古代历史学家不会的？
What kind of knowledge do you end up specializing in, other than the translation itself?
除了翻译本身之外，您最终还专注于哪些知识？
I would say I have a pretty deep knowledge of word choice and poetics and style and literary form of each of the texts I’ve studied.
我想说，我对我所研究的每一篇文本的选词、诗学、风格和文学形式都有相当深入的了解。
I wouldn’t say —
我不会说——
But what will that cash out into?
但这会兑现什么呢？
Like, if I ask you, what might you understand about ancient Athens that an ancient historian would not as well?
就像，如果我问你，关于古代雅典，你可能会理解哪些古代历史学家不会理解的事情？
What would you say concretely?
具体要说什么？
If you’re asking about Pericles, I would say that, if I had spent longer studying Pericles’s speech in Thucydides, I might have a deeper understanding of the rhetorical tropes that are being used and of the ways that rhetoric interacts with ideology within the representation in that passage, within the representations in multiple literary texts of that period.
如果你问的是伯里克利，我会说，如果我花更长的时间研究伯里克利在修昔底德的演讲，我可能会对正在使用的修辞修辞以及修辞与意识形态在该段落的表述中、在那个时期的多个文学文本的表述中相互作用的方式有更深入的理解。
I think I might have a deeper understanding of how cultural representations operate in classical Athens.
我想我可能会对文化表征在古典雅典的运作方式有更深入的了解。
But you end up thinking, “Well, they’re funnier than we thought.
但你最终会想：“嗯，它们比我们想象的更有趣。
They’re more sardonic than we thought.
他们比我们想象的还要讽刺。
They’re more bitter than we thought.” What’s the final takeaway in terms of your understanding of that time?
他们比我们想象的更痛苦。”就您对那段时期的理解而言，最终的收获是什么？
Are you doing classical Athens or doing —
你是在做古典雅典还是在做——
Any period that you care to.
您关心的任何时期。
Homer’s time is fine, but we know more about Athens, of course.
荷马的时代很好，但我们当然更了解雅典。
We know more about Athens.
我们对雅典有了更多的了解。
I would definitely say funnier, but I’d also say — even though the texts we have are primarily by elite men — I think even from those texts, which are already a tiny demographic, we can say they’re more diverse in terms of how do they look at the world than we might have thought.
我肯定会说更有趣，但我也会说 —— 尽管我们拥有的文本主要是由精英人士写的 —— 我认为即使从这些文本中，他们已经是一个很小的人口，我们可以说他们在如何看待世界方面比我们想象的更加多样化。
Generalizing about “This is the Athenian worldview” doesn’t actually make any sense if you look at the array of different opinions that are articulated in the text.
如果你看看文本中阐述的一系列不同观点，那么概括“这就是雅典世界观”实际上没有任何意义。
When you translated the Odyssey — as a reader, I think of your approach as pretty clean and direct and very easy to read, but also with a lot of psychological depth, and I prefer that in the Odyssey.
当你翻译《奥德赛》时——作为一个读者，我认为你的方法非常干净、直接，非常容易阅读，而且也有很多心理深度，我更喜欢《奥德赛》中的这一点。
But when I read, say, the Hebrew Bible, I want something a little more, maybe stentorian in tone, or a little more baroque, actually.
但当我读希伯来圣经时，我想要更多的东西，也许是洪亮的语气，或者实际上更巴洛克式的。
I think a lot of people feel the same way.
我想很多人都有同样的感觉。
Why that difference?
为什么会有这样的差异？
Why do we want something different from a Bible translation often?
为什么我们经常想要不同于圣经翻译的东西？
Hmm.
唔。
Have you read the Robert Alter translations?
你读过罗伯特·阿尔特的翻译吗？
Yes.
是的。
Do you like them?
你喜欢他们吗？
Very much so.
非常如此。
They’re also fairly clear, right?
他们也很清楚，对吧？
It’s not that they’re —
并不是说他们是——
I don’t find them very clear.
我觉得他们不是很清楚。
Maybe they’re as clear as they can be, but you’re easier to read than he is.
也许它们已经尽可能清晰了，但你比他更容易阅读。
That may be the difference in the authors.
这可能就是作者的不同。
I think Homer’s pretty easy to read.
我认为荷马史诗很容易读。
Homer’s syntax is really very easy, and that’s part of what I wanted to bring out.
荷马的语法确实非常简单，这就是我想要表达的部分内容。
In a way, I would like it if my Seneca translations are less easy to read than my Homer translations because I think they’re stylistically —
在某种程度上，如果我的塞内卡翻译不如我的荷马翻译容易阅读，我会喜欢它，因为我认为它们在风格上 -
That’s correct.
这是正确的。
They are less easy to read.
它们不太容易阅读。
WILSON:I hope so, because stylistically those authors are very different.
威尔逊：我希望如此，因为从风格上来说，这些作者非常不同。
So, I think it’s partly just about the source text, and it’s also about the cultural perception of the sourced text.
所以，我认为这部分与源文本有关，也与源文本的文化认知有关。
Most people in contemporary society don’t believe in Athena, so we have a different idea about how should divinity be represented in this text versus in a text where there are people who still worship the God of the Hebrew Bible, right?
当代社会的大多数人不相信雅典娜，所以我们对于如何在这段文本中表现神性与在仍然有人崇拜希伯来圣经上帝的文本中有不同的想法，对吗？
On poetry
论诗
Sure.
当然。
Which poets have influenced your translations, other than the poets of the time?
除了当时的诗人之外，还有哪些诗人影响了您的翻译？
Obviously Homer.
显然是荷马。
Obviously Homer, yes.
显然荷马，是的。
But later poets?
但后来的诗人呢？
My translation of the Odyssey is all in iambic pentameter.
我翻译的《奥德赛》全部是抑扬格五音步。
And as I said earlier, my first book, which is my dissertation, came out of a set of questions about Milton’s Paradise Lost.
正如我之前所说，我的第一本书，也就是我的论文，来自于关于弥尔顿的《失乐园》的一系列问题。
I was very much aware that English already has epic poems, and I also was very much aware that I didn’t want to make Homer sound sub-Miltonic.
我非常清楚英语已经有了史诗，而且我也非常清楚我不想让荷马听起来亚于弥尔顿式。
I didn’t want to make it sound like Paradise Lost.
我不想让它听起来像失乐园。
I didn’t want to make it sound like The Faerie Queene.
我不想让它听起来像《仙后》。
I didn’t even want to make it sound like Tennyson, even though I love Tennyson’s Idylls, as well as his “Ulysses” and “Lotos-Eaters” and so on.
我什至不想让它听起来像丁尼生，尽管我喜欢丁尼生的田园诗，以及他的《尤利西斯》和《食莲花者》等等。
He has one of the most ambiguous characterizations of Ulysses —
他对《尤利西斯》有着最模糊的描述之一——
He sure does.
他当然知道。
— which, to me, makes perfect sense.
——对我来说，这完全有道理。
Yes, it’s a wonderful poem.
是的，这是一首美妙的诗。
So, I wanted to try to obscure my love for Shakespeare and Milton in the style I was writing, but also for it to be there on the down low.
所以，我想尝试以我正在写作的风格来掩盖我对莎士比亚和弥尔顿的热爱，但也让它处于低调的状态。
I wanted to try and write a kind of narrative verse that was informed by pre-20th-century narrative verse, but that was not archaizing.
我想尝试写一种受20世纪前叙事诗启发的叙事诗，但这并不是仿古。
In some ways, I wanted to try and make it more like Elizabeth Bishop or Auden than like Shakespeare, even though I also have spent a huge amount of time reading Shakespeare.
在某些方面，我想尝试让它更像伊丽莎白·毕肖普或奥登，而不是像莎士比亚，尽管我也花了很多时间阅读莎士比亚。
Samuel Johnson once opined that “No one ever wished Paradise Lost to be longer than it is.” Do you agree?
塞缪尔·约翰逊曾表示，“没有人希望《失乐园》比现在更长。”你同意？
Or did you wish that —
或者你希望这样——
I wish it were longer, but I also wish the last two books were better.
我希望它更长，但我也希望最后两本书更好。
What’s wrong with them?
他们怎么了？
It’s just a lot of summary of how the world’s going to be terrible, terrible, terrible, and then, yes, it’s going to be terrible some more, which, in terms of narrative and characterization — it’s much less interesting than the first 10 books.
它只是对世界将如何变得可怕、可怕、可怕，然后，是的，它会变得更加可怕进行了很多总结，从叙事和人物塑造来看，这比前十本书要有趣得多。
I much prefer Samson Agonistes to Paradise Lost.
比起《失乐园》，我更喜欢《参孙阿冈尼斯特斯》。
Am I crazy?
我疯了吗？
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
I love Samson Agonistes, but I don’t much prefer it.
我喜欢参孙激动剂，但我不太喜欢它。
Now that you’ve achieved a high degree of fame, glory — and income also — and you think about how the ancient Greeks understood fame and glory, how is it to be, from a position of fame and glory yourself, evaluating their views?
现在你已经获得了很高的名誉、荣耀——还有收入——你想想古希腊人是如何理解名誉和荣耀的，你自己该如何站在名誉和荣耀的立场去评价他们的观点呢？
I guess it depends which ancient Greeks we ask.
我想这取决于我们问的是哪些古希腊人。
If you ask Odysseus, he’d say, “Great, you should get as much stuff as possible.
如果你问奥德修斯，他会说：“太好了，你应该得到尽可能多的东西。
You should try to come home, not just broken and in a borrowed boat, but with as much treasure as possible.” If you asked Socrates, who went around with no sandals and one cloak, summer and winter, maybe not so interested in the accumulation of kudos.
你应该试着回家，不只是带着破烂和借来的船回家，而是带着尽可能多的财宝回家。”如果你问苏格拉底，他可能对积累荣誉不太感兴趣，他无论夏天还是冬天都不穿凉鞋，只穿一件斗篷。
On the Emily Wilson production function
关于艾米丽·威尔逊生产函数
Some more questions about you.
还有一些关于你的问题。
How important do you think it is, having more female mentors in academia?
您认为在学术界拥有更多的女性导师有多重要？
And how do we get there?
我们如何到达那里？
I think it’s very important, and I don’t have an easy answer to how we get there.
我认为这非常重要，但对于如何实现这一目标，我没有一个简单的答案。
I think part of it has to do with family-friendly hiring policies, family-friendly retention policies, because there are also glass ceilings in terms of how many women get tenure as opposed to how many get hired as opposed to how many finish their PhDs.
我认为部分原因与家庭友好的招聘政策、家庭友好的保留政策有关，因为在有多少女性获得终身教职、有多少女性被聘用以及有多少女性完成博士学位方面也存在玻璃天花板。
Women drop off at every stage.
女性在每个阶段都会下降。
Should we just abolish tenure and have five-year contracts —
我们是否应该废除任期并签订五年合同——
I don’t know.
我不知道。
— but pay some people more?
— 但是付给一些人更多的钱？
Pay all the adjuncts.
支付所有辅助人员的费用。
That’s the area that I think really needs to get fixed, in general.
总的来说，这是我认为真正需要解决的领域。
Of course, there’s the trend towards these people who not only don’t have tenure, but also don’t have any kind of contract beyond the single course, which is a terrible deal.
当然，现在的趋势是这些人不仅没有终身教职，而且除了单一课程之外也没有任何形式的合同，这是一个可怕的交易。
But other than just having more money, which everyone would want —
但除了每个人都想要的更多钱之外——
We all would love that, yes.
我们都会喜欢这样，是的。
— how should we change the rules of the system?
—— 我们应该如何改变系统的规则？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I think there should be more equity.
我认为应该有更多的公平。
I don’t feel like there should be such a disparity between people like me, who are lucky enough to have a good salary and guaranteed medical benefits for the rest of my career — unless I go crazy and quit — and then the adjuncts, who get none of those things.
我觉得像我这样的人不应该有这样的差距，他们很幸运，在我的职业生涯的剩余时间里拥有不错的薪水和有保障的医疗福利——“除非我发疯并辞职——”然后是辅助人员，他们什么也得不到。
I feel like there should be something closer to a leveling, and I don’t know what I can do to fix that, but I nearly —
我觉得应该有一些更接近于平衡的东西，我不知道我能做些什么来解决这个问题，但我几乎——
When you were 17, what in the world of ideas were you obsessed with?
当您 17 岁时，您对创意世界中的什么事物着迷？
Whether the unexamined life is worth living.
未经审视的生活是否值得过。
And what did you conclude?
你得出什么结论？
I thought I needed another few years examining it to figure it out.
我想我还需要几年的时间来研究它才能弄清楚。
Worth living as long as it’s not too long, right?
只要不是太长，就值得活下去，对吗？
That’s right, yes.
没错，是的。
When you were 14, what was your favorite book?
当你14岁的时候，你最喜欢的书是什么？
When I was younger than 14, I loved all books that had magic in them.
当我还不到 14 岁的时候，我喜欢所有有魔力的书。
So I loved the Narnia books, Diana Wynne Jones.
所以我喜欢《纳尼亚传奇》系列，戴安娜·韦恩·琼斯。
I didn’t want to read anything that didn’t involve going through a portal to another world.
我不想读任何不涉及通过门户进入另一个世界的东西。
Then that started to change when I was 14, and I started to read Jane Eyre, maybe around that age, and I loved it.
然后，当我 14 岁的时候，情况开始发生变化，我开始读《简·爱》，大概在那个年纪，我很喜欢它。
Jane Austen.
简·奥斯汀。
I read Dickens.
我读过狄更斯。
I went through a very religious phase, and I read the Bible.
我经历了一个非常虔诚的阶段，我读了圣经。
It might have been my favorite book at 14, that kind of thing.
这可能是我 14 岁时最喜欢的书之类的。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
And how did you decide to become a classicist?
您是如何决定成为一名古典主义者的？
You could have taken a number of paths if you were going to be an academic.
如果你想成为一名学者，你可以采取多种路径。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I could have taken many paths, and in fact, I considered not being an academic at all.
我本来可以走很多路，事实上，我根本就没有考虑过成为一名学者。
That’s another possible path.
这是另一条可能的路径。
I considered getting —
我考虑过——
What would you have done if not academia?
如果不做学术你会做什么？
That’s partly why I stuck to that, because I didn’t quite know.
这就是我坚持这一点的部分原因，因为我不太清楚。
I considered going to med school, but I realized that I’m actually not very good with blood.
我考虑过去医学院，但我意识到我实际上不太擅长血液。
I considered going to law school.
我考虑过去法学院。
But then, I actually thought, “I want to spend more time in the library than I think I’m going to get if I do that.”
但后来，我实际上想，“我想在图书馆度过比我想象的更多的时间，如果我这样做的话。”
I considered also being a literature scholar but not a classicist.
我也考虑过成为一名文学学者，但不是古典主义者。
I knew I wanted to read poetry and keep on studying poetry, but I didn’t necessarily think it had to be ancient poetry.
我知道我想读诗，并继续研究诗，但我不一定认为它必须是古诗。
I thought it could be later poetry, as well, would be fine.
我想这也可以是后来的诗，也可以。
You have many writers in your family background.
您的家庭背景中有很多作家。
How did that shape you?
这对你有何影响？
It made me know that it wasn’t weird to want to read all the time.
这让我知道一直想读书并不奇怪。
So that in itself was a formative thing.
所以这本身就是一件具有影响力的事情。
I didn’t have to learn that it’s okay to be reading all the time.
我不必知道一直读书是可以的。
Now, there’s some books you’re working on I’ll ask you about.
现在，你正在写一些书，我会向你询问。
On your home page, you list one called Classics Reborn, a book on the reception of classical literature in the early modern period.
在你的主页上，你列出了一本名为《经典重生》的书，这是一本关于近代早期古典文学接受的书。
Oxford University Press.
牛津大学出版社。
What will you cover?
你会报道什么？
It’s going to be a sort of survey of what people used to unselfconsciously call the Renaissance.
这将是对人们过去不自觉地称之为文艺复兴的一种调查。
I always hesitate over that word because Americans say Renaissance, and I say Renaissance.
我总是对这个词犹豫不决，因为美国人说文艺复兴，我也说文艺复兴。
Anyway, in that period, the rebirth of classical antiquity — what exactly was it to imagine that classical antiquity was being reborn?
无论如何，在那个时期，古典的重生 ——所谓古典的重生究竟是怎样的感觉？
It’s going to be about, what was that weird idea about?
它将是关于，那个奇怪的想法是什么？
And how exactly —
以及究竟如何——
Is there a central figure, country, time?
有没有一个中心人物、国家、时间？
No, it’s going to be a broad but selective account of how that played out in what is going to be primarily Britain and Europe, probably more Britain than anywhere else, but I can’t skip Italy.
不，这将是一个广泛但有选择性的描述，说明这种情况如何在主要是英国和欧洲的地区发挥作用，可能英国比其他任何地方都多，但我不能跳过意大利。
Going through, primarily, literary texts and discussing the ways that literary authors of that period both build on and talk back to ancient authors.
主要浏览文学文本，并讨论那个时期的文学作家如何借鉴古代作家并与古代作家进行反驳。
There’s another book listed, titled Faithful, described as a book about translation.
列出的还有另一本书，名为《Faithful》，被描述为一本关于翻译的书。
What will that be, or what is it?
那会是什么，或者是什么？
That’s a much shorter book, and not covering the whole of the Renaissance.
这是一本短得多的书，并没有涵盖整个文艺复兴时期。
It’s a sort of stump piece, in a way, trying to do the same kind of thing that I’m doing on Twitter, in terms of trying to explain to the general reader, what exactly is translation?
从某种程度上来说，这是一个树桩作品，试图做我在 Twitter 上做的同样的事情，试图向普通读者解释，翻译到底是什么？
What do translators do all day?
翻译人员整天都在做什么？
What do literary translators do all day?
文学翻译家整天都在做什么？
Also, trying to figure out why is it — which, to me, was puzzling when I realized it was true — why is it that, for instance, that I’m the first woman to translate the Odyssey into English, or to publish a translation of the Odyssey into English?
另外，试图弄清楚为什么是这样的——当我意识到这是真的时，我感到很困惑——例如，为什么我是第一个将《奥德赛》翻译成英文的女性，或者出版《奥德赛》英文译本的女性？
I was surprised when I realized that, and then I realized this is part of a much broader gender disparity — that it’s not that there aren’t any female Homerists.
当我意识到这一点时，我感到很惊讶，然后我意识到这是更广泛的性别差异的一部分——并不是说没有女性荷马主义者。
Of course there are.
当然有。
Of course there are plenty of female classicists.
当然，也有很多女性古典主义者。
And yet, the field of literary translation within classics is really skewed towards men.
然而，古典文学翻译领域确实偏向男性。
I wanted to figure out, why is that?
我想弄清楚，这是为什么？
What kinds of issues are there within the field of literary translation in general, and classical literary translation in particular?
文学翻译领域，特别是古典文学翻译领域存在哪些问题？
Why is that a stronger skew in the English-language world?
为什么英语世界的这种偏差更大？
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
It’s very striking that there’s been a translation of the Odyssey by a woman into French since the 18th century.
令人震惊的是，自 18 世纪以来就有一位女性将《奥德赛》翻译成法语。
There were several by women into Italian.
有几个是由女性翻译成意大利语的。
There’s one by a woman into Turkish.
有一篇是一位女士用土耳其语写的。
I think the whole culture of translation is different in European countries to what it is in the States.
我认为欧洲国家的整个翻译文化与美国不同。
Do you think women translators have a higher relative standing when translation is less professionalized, less bureaucratized?
您认为当翻译专业化程度较低、官僚化程度较低时，女性翻译的相对地位是否更高？
It’s something you just do?
这是你刚刚做的事情吗？
Whereas when we conduct it through academia, maybe that puts women translators at a disadvantage?
然而，当我们通过学术界进行这项工作时，也许这会让女性译者处于不利地位？
I think it’s a combination: that academia in the States — much more than perhaps in France or Italy — devalues translation, so that you don’t get tenure for translation, which then also means, if you’re a category of person who might be already less likely to get tenure, then maybe you’re even less likely to do this kind of work, which is valued as useless.
我认为这是一个综合因素：美国的学术界——或许比法国或意大利的学术界更加贬低翻译，因此你无法获得翻译终身教职，这也意味着，如果你是一类本来就不太可能获得终身教职的人，那么也许你更不可能从事这种被认为无用的工作。
Why do we devalue translation in academia?
为什么我们在学术界贬低翻译？
What’s wrong with our incentive scheme?
我们的激励计划出了什么问题？
The whole incentive scheme is messed up because the kind of writing that’s valued, almost exclusively, is the peer-reviewed monograph.
整个激励计划一团糟，因为几乎唯一受重视的写作是经过同行评审的专着。
I think it’s partly that the humanities are supposed to come up with “original research,” which is imagined to work in exactly the same structure as peer-reviewed research in STEM fields, which then means that it has to qualify in the same way.
我认为，部分原因是人文学科应该提出“原创研究”，人们认为它的工作结构与 STEM 领域的同行评审研究完全相同，这意味着它必须以同样的方式获得资格。
Then, if you do a different kind of work, which is not the peer-reviewed monograph, it doesn’t look as much analogous to the research in the STEM fields, so we don’t count it.
然后，如果你做了不同类型的工作，不是同行评审的专着，它看起来与 STEM 领域的研究不太相似，所以我们不计算它。
The different books you’re writing — the Iliad translation, Faithful, Classics Reborn — do you work on them all at once?
你正在写的不同书籍 ——《伊利亚特》译本、《忠实》、《经典重生》—— 你是同时写的吗？
Or what’s your method?
或者说你的方法是什么？
Do you come back to them?
你会回到他们身边吗？
I still struggle with that all the time.
我仍然一直在为此挣扎。
Right now, I’m not teaching, so I’m able to spend the morning doing one and the afternoon doing another.
现在，我不教书，所以我可以花早上做一个，下午做另一个。
I like it if I can do at least some translating in the course of a day, and then some writing in the course of a day.
如果我能在一天之内至少完成一些翻译，然后在一天之内完成一些写作，我会很高兴。
I like to balance out because I feel like they use different parts of my brain.
我喜欢平衡，因为我觉得他们使用了我大脑的不同部分。
Just physically, what does your translation look like?
就物理而言，您的翻译是什么样的？
Is it simply you sitting at a computer, typing and staring?
只是你坐在电脑前打字、盯着看吗？
Is it a room full of papers and books?
房间里堆满了文件和书籍吗？
Is it you’ve had to buy a separate house?
您是否必须购买独立的房子？
What’s the production function for translation?
翻译的生产函数是什么？
Describe the factory.
描述一下工厂。
I have a very big desk from IKEA, and I have a huge orange cat, who’s mostly on it.
我有一张来自宜家的非常大的桌子，还有一只巨大的橙色猫，它大部分时间都在上面。
I also have a couple of Greek dictionaries, usually a couple of commentaries, the Greek text, a notebook, a laptop.
我还有几本希腊语词典，通常是几本评论、希腊语文本、一个笔记本、一台笔记本电脑。
So, I usually do some writing of a draft by hand in the notebook first, and then I type it up on the laptop.
所以，我通常先在笔记本上手写一些草稿，然后在笔记本电脑上打字。
Then I revise it, and I consult the various texts that are spread around me on my big desk at various points.
然后我修改它，并在我的大桌子上的不同位置查阅散布在我周围的各种文本。
Very last question.
最后一个问题。
Let’s say a very smart female undergraduate comes to you.
假设一位非常聪明的女大学生来找你。
Say she’s 19, and she says, “I want to be the next great Homer translator, say 30–40 years from now, when we need another translation, just because our language has changed.” She asks you for advice or some kind of insight that you have, having done what you’ve done.
假设她 19 岁，她说：“我想成为下一个伟大的荷马翻译家，比如说 30-40 年后，当我们需要另一次翻译时，只是因为我们的语言已经改变了。”她向你寻求建议或你在做了你所做的事情后所拥有的某种见解。
What is it you would tell her that other people wouldn’t?
你会告诉她哪些其他人不会告诉她的事情？
I would tell her, “Read lots of English poetry.” I think it’s very common for classicists to be a little bit too overspecialized and to have just read ancient literature and not read enough literature that isn’t in ancient Greek.
我会告诉她，“读很多英语诗歌。”我认为古典主义者过于专业化并且只阅读古代文学而没有阅读足够的非古希腊文学是很常见的。
And she should start where?
而她应该从哪里开始呢？
She should read things that interest her, that she loves.
她应该读她感兴趣、她喜欢的东西。
I don’t think it has to be that I prescribe her canon.
我认为不必由我来规定她的准则。
But she should be reading in her own language, as well as in ancient Greek.
但她应该用她自己的语言以及古希腊语阅读。
Emily Wilson, thank you very much.
艾米丽·威尔逊，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。