Edwidge Danticat on Haitian Art and Literature (Ep. 108)

I had, actually, a big chunk of primary education in Haiti.

事实上，我在海地接受了很大一部分初等教育。

Having learned both oral history and written history, I brought a lot of that with me to the US, enough that I was curious when I got here to find out more from this side of things.

在学习了口述历史和书面历史之后，我把很多东西带到了美国，这足以让我在到达这里时很好奇，想从这方面了解更多。

I think it was, in part, a love for Haiti that continued and also a curiosity about history in general, but Haitian history in particular.

我认为这在一定程度上是对海地持续的热爱，也是对整个历史（尤其是海地历史）的好奇心。

Then, in the 1980s, during the pandemic of AIDS, Haiti was designated by the CDC as a .

然后，在 20 世纪 80 年代，艾滋病流行期间，海地被疾病预防控制中心指定为艾滋病毒疫区。

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Haitians were labeled a high-risk group for AIDS, and we were the only ones designated by nationality.

海地人被列为艾滋病高危人群，而我们是唯一按国籍指定的人群。

It was Haitians, hemophiliacs, heroin addicts, and homosexuals.

他们是海地人、血友病患者、海洛因成瘾者和同性恋者。

That came out of some cases of people who had contracted AIDS and who came to a hospital here in Miami and were reported to the CDC.

这是来自一些感染艾滋病的人的病例，这些人来到迈阿密的一家医院，并向疾病预防控制中心报告。

Really, that designation killed the tourism industry in Haiti.

确实，这个称号扼杀了海地的旅游业。

It was later, after much demonstrations, after a lot of research, it was corrected.

后来经过多次论证、大量研究后，才改正。

But it really killed whatever tourism industry there was in Haiti, which was already a strange kind of tourism anyway because people felt happy to go at a time of very strict dictatorship.

但这确实扼杀了海地的旅游业，无论如何，这已经是一种奇怪的旅游业，因为人们在非常严格的独裁统治时期很乐意去那里。

There was already something a little strange about that, but whatever tourism industry there was, was destroyed by the AIDS epidemic.

这已经有点奇怪了，但无论旅游业如何，都被艾滋病的流行摧毁了。

If you think of it like any other diaspora, we’re going to be like .

如果您像其他侨民一样看待它，那么我们就会像这样。

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If you’re in North America or if you’re out in Europe, there are some mechanisms that make our work more visible.

如果您在北美或欧洲，有一些机制可以让我们的工作更加引人注目。

My work is in English, so naturally, people have more access to it more easily.

我的作品是英文的，所以自然地，人们可以更轻松地访问它。

But there’s a really strong and vibrant culture inside Haiti as well that people like us — we feel fed by, that we feel is still important to us as readers.

但海地国内也有一种非常强大和充满活力的文化，像我们这样的人 ——我们感到被这种文化所滋养，我们觉得这种文化对我们作为读者来说仍然很重要。

I’m a writer, but I’m also a reader.

我是一名作家，但我也是一名读者。

I appreciate art.

我欣赏艺术。

I’m on the council of Centre d’Art d’Haiti, an esteemed institution that goes back several decades now, so there’s still that culture.

我是海地艺术中心的理事会成员，这是一个受人尊敬的机构，其历史可以追溯到几十年前，所以这种文化仍然存在。

It’s really a powerful statement, I think, to Haitians and Haitian culture because there’s so many obstacles all the time in the way of artists in Haiti, but they still are thriving and are very .

我认为，对于海地人和海地文化来说，这确实是一个强有力的声明，因为海地艺术家的道路上一直存在很多障碍，但他们仍然在蓬勃发展，而且非常繁荣。

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been wonderful expressing what’s happening very powerfully through their work.

通过他们的作品非常有力地表达了正在发生的事情。

No diaspora is fully stable.

没有哪个侨民是完全稳定的。

Of course, there’s integration, there’s assimilation.

当然，有整合，有同化。

That happens with every immigrant community over the generations, certainly, for sure, but there’s a certain tie to Haiti that the diaspora has.

当然，每一代移民社区都会发生这种情况，但侨民与海地有着一定的联系。

There’re so many diaspora organizations, neighborhood organizations, where people support schools in the neighborhoods where they come from, where they support organizations.

有很多侨民组织、社区组织，人们支持他们来自的社区的学校，他们支持这些组织。

Part of it, I think, that tie, that connection is connected to the fact that Haiti is often in crisis, and people in the diaspora are often the first-line responders after people in Haiti.

我认为，这种联系的一部分与海地经常陷入危机这一事实有关，而海外侨民往往是继海地人民之后的第一线响应者。

After Haitians in Haiti are Haitians in diaspora.

继在海地的海地人之后，便是散居国外的海地人。

Even within our families, if there’s an illness, and that sometimes extends to the larger community.

即使在我们的家庭内部，如果出现疾病，有时也会蔓延到更大的社区。

Definitely, there’s integration, but we have a diaspora that goes back further than people know, yet that connection to Haiti throughout the generations has been made.

当然，融合是存在的，但我们的侨民的历史比人们所知的还要久远，但与海地的联系已经代代相传。

Then, with these artists that you mentioned — Leyla McCalla — she’s a wonderful artist, born of Haitian parents, yet her music reflects that.

然后，对于你提到的这些艺术家——“Leyla McCalla”——她是一位出色的艺术家，出生于海地父母，但她的音乐反映了这一点。

Artists like Mélissa Laveaux.

梅丽莎·拉沃 (Mélissa Laveaux) 等艺术家。

You mentioned Basquiat.

你提到了巴斯奎特。

I think that’s also a testament to a thread that runs through Haiti and the diaspora.

我认为这也证明了贯穿海地和海外侨民的一条线索。

There’s literature in Creole, certainly, which is probably closer to the primary language that most Haitians speak Creole.

当然，有克里奥尔语的文学作品，这可能更接近大多数海地人说克里奥尔语的主要语言。

That was slow to come.

那是来得很慢的。

There was always literature in Creole, but not as much as there is now.

克里奥尔语文学一直都有，但不像现在那么多。

Haitian literature is mostly written in French, and like you said, we’ve worked on translating.

海地文学大部分是用法语写的，就像你说的，我们一直致力于翻译。

I’ve worked with others in translating, for example, a masterpiece of Haitian literature called L’espace d’un cillement by Jacques Stephen Alexis, which we translated with Carrol Coates as In the Flicker of an Eyelid.

例如，我与其他人合作翻译了雅克·斯蒂芬·亚历克西斯（Jacques Stephen Alexis）的海地文学杰作《L’espace d’un cillement》，我们与卡罗尔·科茨（Carrol Coates）一起翻译了《眼睑的闪烁》（In the Flicker of an Eyelid）。

I edited these two books, Haiti Noir and Haiti Noir 2, in which we translated many contemporary Haitian writers.

我编辑了这两本书，《海地黑色》和《海地黑色2》，其中我们翻译了许多当代海地作家。

Then we have writers now who are Haitian American or Haitian Canadian, like Roxane Gay and Myriam Chancy, who write directly in English.

现在，我们有海地裔美国人或海地裔加拿大人，比如罗克珊·盖伊 (Roxane Gay) 和米里亚姆·昌西 (Myriam Chancy)，他们直接用英语写作。

So it’s a multi-language literature through immigration and migration.

所以这是一部通过移民和迁徙而产生的多语​​言文学。

We have writers who are writing in Chile and in the Dominican Republic in Spanish, and that’s another growing layer of Haitian literature abroad — this Haitian literature that’s so far mostly produced a lot of poetry in Spanish.

我们有作家在智利和多米尼加共和国用西班牙语写作，这是海地文学在国外不断增长的另一层 ——到目前为止，海地文学主要创作了大量西班牙语诗歌。

There was a novel before by a Haitian writer named Micheline Dusseck, who had written one of the first novels about Haiti in Spanish.

以前有一位海地作家米什琳·杜塞克写过一部小说，她是最早用西班牙语写的关于海地的小说之一。

It’s a linguistically interesting literature and to see all the tentacles of it, if you will.

这是一部语言学上很有趣的文学作品，如果你愿意的话，可以看看它的所有触角。

You should expect people to respond.

你应该期待人们的回应。

If you do it with nuance and care, that’s really important.

如果你细致入微、小心翼翼地做到这一点，那真的很重要。

There are some tropes that often sometimes people just fall into when they’re writing about Haiti.

人们在写海地时常常会陷入一些比喻。

The zombie situation.

僵尸的情况。

Sometimes they approach it like it’s never been done before.

有时他们对待它就像以前从未做过一样。

If you do it with care, if you do it with nuance, I’m open to reading it.

如果你小心翼翼，如果你细致入微，我愿意阅读它。

There’s stuff that, even if you’re vegan, you can like, like mais moulin, which is cornmeal.

有些东西，即使你是素食主义者，你也会喜欢的，比如 mais moulin，即玉米粉。

Sos pwa — I think it’s a very rich and wonderful cuisine, but I am biased.

Sos pwa — 我认为这是一道非常丰富和美妙的菜肴，但我有偏见。

People who have not had Haitian food, if you know anybody who’s Haitian, on January 1st, go over to their house — when we can go over to people’s houses again — go for soup joumou, which is a squash soup that we drink on the first of January to celebrate Haitian independence.

没有吃过海地食物的人，如果你认识任何海地人，1 月 1 日，去他们家 ——“当我们可以再次去人们家时”—— 去喝汤 joumou，这是我们在一月 1 日喝的一种南瓜汤，以庆祝海地独立。

At some point, not too long ago, Toni Morrison, after she died, was on a tap-tap.

就在不久前的某个时刻，托妮·莫里森去世后，她的生活陷入了困境。

It’s just that people really soak up what’s happening around.

只是人们真正吸收了周围发生的事情。

But the sayings are also great.

但俗话说得也很棒。

One of my favorite sayings on the tap-tap was “w ap pale, m ap travay,” like, “You’re talking and I’m working.” I felt it was so powerful in terms of how you respond to people who talk badly about you.

我在 Tap-Tap 上最喜欢的一句话是“w ap pape, m ap travay”，比如“你在说话，我在工作。”我觉得它对于你如何回应那些说你坏话的人来说是如此强大。

“w ap pale, m ap travay.

“w ap 苍白，m ap travay。

You’re talking, I’m working.” Things like that.

你在说话，我在工作。”诸如此类的事情。

Also, the tap-taps with the art sometimes will have messages of gratitude.

此外，带有艺术的敲击声有时会带有感激的信息。

A tap-tap might have a message of gratitude to the driver’s mother or to whoever contributed.

敲击声可能会传达对司机母亲或任何做出贡献的人的感激之情。

A lot of them are to Jesus, to God, to the Virgin and other religious figures, but also to people in the person’s life who contributed to the business.

其中很多是献给耶稣、上帝、圣母玛利亚和其他宗教人物，也献给生命中为企业做出贡献的人。

I always find them very beautiful to look at, but also really wonderful moving pieces of art.

我总是觉得它们看起来非常漂亮，而且也是非常美妙动人的艺术品。

But there was always, at that same time, artists who were a little bit more adventurous, artists who were somewhat abstract.

但与此同时，总有一些更具冒险精神、有些抽象的艺术家。

At the same time, there were these artists who were like, “This is what the tourists want.

与此同时，也有一些艺术家说：“这就是游客想要的。

That’s what I’m going to produce.” Throughout the Caribbean, even if you went to other islands, you would see these paintings, and they became almost a little bit mass-produced, but they’re gorgeous.

这就是我要制作的东西。”在整个加勒比地区，即使你去其他岛屿，你也会看到这些画，它们几乎有点批量生产，但它们很华丽。

I have some.

我有一些。

The sculptures you’re talking about — those were started actually by .

你所说的雕塑 ——那些实际上是由……开始的。

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I used to work for Jonathan Demme, the filmmaker, who was a huge collector of Haitian art.

我曾经为电影制片人乔纳森·戴米工作，他是海地艺术品的巨大收藏家。

In the office, whenever we acquired those sculptures .

在办公室里，每当我们购买这些雕塑时。

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I traveled a lot to Haiti with him.

我和他一起去了很多海地。

He called them Liautauds because the original artist was Liautaud.

他称它们为Liautauds，因为最初的艺术家是Liautaud。

When I was growing up, in cemeteries, often we had metal flowers, really, because you would do a wreath of metal.

当我长大的时候，在墓地里，我们经常有金属花，真的，因为你会做一个金属花环。

It would be metal from oil drums because that lasted longer, as opposed to if you have a wreath of just roses — that dies quickly, so people would make these beautiful wreaths.

它会是油桶中的金属，因为它持续时间更长，而不是如果你有一个只有玫瑰的花环——它很快就会死去，所以人们会制作这些美丽的花环。

Liautaud was from St. Mark, which is really the home of these sculptures.

利奥托来自圣马可，那里确实是这些雕塑的故乡。

Now, there’s a whole industry in those sculptures for sure.

现在，这些雕塑肯定已经成为一个完整的行业。

I have to say, they’re very hard, I agree.

我不得不说，他们很难，我同意。

You can’t just put that in your suitcase, often, like you would the paintings.

通常，你不能像对待画作那样将其放入手提箱中。

People used to roll them.

人们过去常常滚动它们。

But they’re gorgeous, and now they’re almost three dimensional.

但它们很华丽，现在它们几乎是三维的。

One Christmas, we bought one that was a nativity scene that was 3D.

有一年圣诞节，我们买了一个 3D 耶稣诞生场景。

But there are a lot of wonderful young artists now.

但现在有很多优秀的年轻艺术家。

Some of them are moving away from the more primitive, naive Lionel St-Eloi.

他们中的一些人正在远离更原始、天真的莱昂内尔·圣埃洛伊。

There’re so many whose names are escaping me, but there are just wonderful artists worth exploring.

有很多人的名字我都记不清了，但总有一些出色的艺术家值得探索。

You mentioned Duval-Carrié, who is outside of Haiti, but there are quite a few other young artists, too, who are inside Haiti, who would use both that style of sculpture but also do painting, who do installations or doing really, really exciting things.

你提到了海地境外的杜瓦尔-卡里埃，但海地境内也有不少其他年轻艺术家，他们既会使用这种雕塑风格，也会进行绘画，他们会做装置或做一些非常非常令人兴奋的事情。

Why is it you think that Black African Americans have not evolved as natural collectors of Haitian art?

您认为为什么非裔美国人没有发展成为海地艺术的天然收藏家？

It seems to be much more the nerdy White guys who buy it, or well-to-do families.

购买它的似乎更多是书呆子白人，或者富裕家庭。

Carine, for example, I think, has worked with a lot of African American collectors, including some in Hollywood, but some outside, also ordinary people who collect.

例如，我认为卡琳（Carine）曾与许多非裔美国收藏家合作过，其中包括好莱坞的一些收藏家，但也有一些外面的收藏家，也有普通收藏家。

There’s been, also, this marriage of African American art, in some cases, with Haitian art, like Lois Mailou Jones, who went to Haiti, who has spent time there, and this connection there with some African American artists who are very aware of Haitian art as well.

在某些情况下，非裔美国艺术与海地艺术也存在着这种联姻，比如洛伊丝·麦卢·琼斯(Lois Mailou Jones)，他去了海地，在那里度过了一段时光，并与一些也非常了解海地艺术的非裔美国艺术家建立了这种联系。

In my work, I treat that as a worldview.

在我的工作中，我将其视为一种世界观。

Some people might be practitioners; some people might not be.

有的人可能是修炼者；有的人可能是修炼者。有些人可能不是。

I also like to show a whole range of religious practices in my characters because not everybody is monolithic.

我也喜欢在我的角色中展示一系列的宗教活动，因为并不是每个人都是单一的。

As they’re not in their behavior, they’re not monolithic in their religious practice as well, so I try to show it as a whole range of religious practices.

由于他们的行为不一样，他们的宗教实践也不是单一的，所以我试图将其展示为一个完整的宗教实践范围。

In Breath, Eyes, Memory, for example, the family certainly have their family loa.

例如，在《呼吸、眼睛、记忆》中，这个家庭当然有他们的家族神灵。

They have their own practice, but there are members of the family that also practice other religions.

他们有自己的宗教信仰，但也有一些家庭成员信仰其他宗教。

To show the whole range of religious practices that there would be in a family like that, some of them are also Protestant, and sometimes that actually leads to some conflicts within some families.

为了显示这样的家庭中会有各种各样的宗教活动，其中一些人也是新教徒，有时这实际上会导致一些家庭内部的一些冲突。

I like to show all the nuance of all that.

我喜欢展示所有这些的细微差别。

Now I find, for example, my mother-in-law, who’s 85, who lives with us — she’s in Haiti most of the time.

例如，现在我发现我的婆婆，她 85 岁了，和我们住在一起 ——她大部分时间都在海地。

Sometimes she’ll watch a YouTube video about something that’s happening in Haiti, but it’s a YouTube video of someone in a radio station, and she can watch it on YouTube.

有时她会观看有关海地发生的事情的 YouTube 视频，但这是广播电台某人的 YouTube 视频，她可以在 YouTube 上观看。

Someone can send the clip on WhatsApp.

有人可以通过 WhatsApp 发送该剪辑。

I think radio now is part of a series of many different ways that people get information.

我认为广播现在是人们获取信息的一系列不同方式的一部分。

When we’re in the country, if you don’t have internet, it remains one way that you get news, on the radio.

当我们在乡下时，如果你没有互联网，通过广播仍然是你获取新闻的一种方式。

Also, I find, even the older people in my life get a lot of news through their phones, through WhatsApp, also through YouTube clips.

此外，我发现，即使是我生活中的老年人也通过手机、WhatsApp 和 YouTube 剪辑获取很多新闻。

There’s a constant loop of information now that radio is just one part of, whereas for example, when I was younger, it was the primary, if not the only source of information that we had.

现在信息不断循环，广播只是其中的一部分，而例如，当我年轻的时候，它是我们拥有的主要信息来源，即使不是唯一的信息来源。

I think what I recognize in the whole fake news debate is the gradual slide towards autocracy.

我认为我在整个假新闻辩论中认识到的是逐渐滑向独裁。

Certainly, those of us who have lived through dictatorship and other moments like that, you recognize the slippery slope, the demonization of media, that sort of forced silencing.

当然，我们这些经历过独裁和其他类似时刻的人，你会认识到滑坡、媒体妖魔化和那种强迫沉默。

This summer I was reading with my girls.

今年夏天，我和女儿们一起读书。

We were reading Animal Farm, and it was really striking, all the parallels in terms of “What your eyes are seeing, you’re not seeing.” All that is very familiar in terms of that whole thing of diminishing the press.

我们正在读《动物农场》，这确实令人震惊，所有的相似之处都在于“你的眼睛看到的，你没有看到的”。就削弱新闻界而言，所有这些都是非常熟悉的。

Of course, at full autocracy, then you destroy the people who are giving the news.

当然，在完全独裁的情况下，你就会消灭那些发布消息的人。

But there are ways, now, with the social media, to do it.

但现在，通过社交媒体，有一些方法可以做到这一点。

So Haiti was shunned, and we had to pay to the French for this independence until into the next century.

因此，海地被避开了，我们不得不向法国人支付独立费用，直到下个世纪。

I think there was so much stacked up against us, and then, in the early 1900s, you had the very long US occupation, and then the dictatorship.

我认为有太多的因素对我们不利，然后，在 1900 年代初，美国长期占领，然后是独裁统治。

I think we were set up, in a way, to fail because this was not meant to exist.

我认为，在某种程度上，我们注定要失败，因为这本来就不应该存在。

Enslaved people starting their own country was not meant to exist.

被奴役的人建立自己的国家本来就不存在。

A lot of people have said it, and historians have said it, like, “How dare you?” I think to this day Haiti’s being told, “How dare you?”

很多人都这么说过，历史学家也这么说过，比如“你怎么敢？”我想直到今天，海地仍被告知：“你怎么敢？”

Many instances when we’ve elected our leaders, then suddenly there’s a coup or there’s .

很多情况下，当我们选出领导人后，突然发生政变或发生政变。

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So I think the instability is not fully the fault of Haitians.

所以我认为不稳定并不完全是海地人的错。

We’ve had our part where people have decided to turn against their own, but it’s also something that has been set up to fail.

我们已经经历了人们决定反对自己的部分，但这也是注定要失败的事情。

One of the heads — I think it’s Butler, his name was — who had a mea culpa many years later, who was in charge of not just the occupation of Haiti, but also at that time, when there was a common occupation of Haiti and the DR where he said, “We were there for City Bank.

其中一位负责人 —— 我想是巴特勒，他的名字是 —— 多年后他感到愧疚，他不仅负责占领海地，而且负责当时对海地和民主共和国的共同占领，他说：“我们是为了城市银行。

We were there for money.” That was his mea culpa.

我们是为了钱才去那里的。”这是他的过失。

There’s the example of — you’ve talked about Haitian art — Philomé Obin, who’s a Haitian artist from the north, has a very famous painting about Charlemagne Péralte, who was a leader of the Cacos, who fought against the occupation, who was murdered and attached to a door as a kind of frightening.

有这样一个例子：“你谈到了海地艺术”——菲洛姆·奥宾（Philomé Obin）是一位来自北方的海地艺术家，他有一幅非常著名的关于查理曼·佩拉尔特（Charlemagne Péralte）的画作，他是卡科斯（Cacos）领袖，反抗占领，被谋杀并被挂在门上以示恐惧。

And there were some horror stories, some massacres during the occupation.

占领期间发生了一些恐怖故事和屠杀。

What was left behind after the occupation, both in Haiti and the Dominican Republic, was this military structure that went through the generations.

海地和多米尼加共和国被占领后留下的是这种代代相传的军事结构。

In the Dominican Republic side, it became Trujillo, who then carried out this 1937 massacre of Haitians.

在多米尼加共和国方面，则是特鲁希略，他随后实施了1937年对海地人的屠杀。

Then on our side, it went all the way down through the army that ended up in that dictatorship.

然后在我们这边，它一直通过军队，最终进入了独裁统治。

There was also a deeper layering of basically moving Jim Crow to these islands because, for the comfort of these people, they had to create these clubs to separate people who are light versus people who are dark in terms of how they interacted with them.

还有一个更深层次的问题，基本上是将吉姆·克劳（Jim Crow）转移到这些岛屿上，因为为了这些人的舒适，他们必须创建这些俱乐部，以在与他们互动的方式上区分光明的人和黑暗的人。

So it’s not fun.

所以这并不好玩。

I think at that time, President Aristide was part of that decision, and he wanted to return.

我想当时阿里斯蒂德总统也是这个决定的一部分，他想回来。

At that time, I guess, that was the right thing to do.

当时我想，这是正确的做法。

The generals — they were ready to stay, and people were dying.

将军们——他们准备留下来，而人们正在死去。

That was the decision that was made by President Aristide, and he returned.

这是阿里斯蒂德总统做出的决定，他回来了。

But one thing I think would be important, to actually make sure every single child is educated and to make sure that Creole is part of the education because often, children just jump into school in French, and there’s a lot of rote memorization.

但我认为有一件事很重要，那就是要真正确保每个孩子都受到教育，并确保克里奥尔语成为教育的一部分，因为通常孩子们只是用法语进入学校，并且有很多死记硬背。

That would be an important thing, I think, to make sure every child has access to education because in Haiti, something like 40 percent of a parent’s income is spent on education.

我认为，这对于确保每个孩子都能接受教育是一件很重要的事情，因为在海地，家长收入的 40% 左右都花在了教育上。

And often, the children are not getting the best education because it’s rote memorization.

通常，孩子们得不到最好的教育，因为这是死记硬背。

What I know is, there’s such a love for education in Haiti that parents really, really sacrifice a great deal to have their children educated, that every child, of course, deserves an education.

我所知道的是，海地人非常热爱教育，父母为了让孩子接受教育确实付出了巨大的牺牲，当然，每个孩子都应该接受教育。

I would love for every child to have that opportunity.

我希望每个孩子都有这样的机会。

I think that would be the most important thing to have, a good education that could serve them and help them to function and grow in their country.

我认为这是最重要的事情，良好的教育可以为他们服务并帮助他们在自己的国家发挥作用和成长。

One thing that’s been really wonderful to see with this generation is that, as Black immigrants, there’s no separation.

对于这一代人来说，一件非常美妙的事情是，作为黑人移民，没有分离。

Maybe in previous generations, there was that feeling that “Oh, this is not my problem.” But in the demonstrations, you see Haitian flags.

也许在前几代人中，有一种“哦，这不是我的问题”的感觉。但在示威活动中，你会看到海地国旗。

You see Dominican flags.

你看到多米尼加国旗。

You see people from the continent.

你看到来自非洲大陆的人。

I think we realize that this affects all of us.

我认为我们意识到这会影响我们所有人。

It’s my nephews.

这是我的侄子们。

It’s my African American friends that I grew up with, their children, my children.

和我一起长大的是我的非裔美国朋友，他们的孩子，我的孩子。

It’s certainly a common struggle.

这当然是一场共同的斗争。

Certainly, that cop is not going to be asking you which country you’re from when doing these types of encounters.

当然，在进行此类遭遇时，警察不会问你来自哪个国家。

It’s something that my mom used to say quite a bit, too.

这也是我妈妈经常说的话。

If you have just had a really big celebration, or if you waited too late to do your homework because you’re having a good time watching a program you like, she was like, “Aprè dans, tanbou lou.” After the dance, the drum is heavy.

如果你刚刚举行了一场非常盛大的庆祝活动，或者你因为看自己喜欢的节目而玩得很开心而太晚才做作业，她就会说，“Aprè dans, tanbou lou。”舞毕，鼓声重重。

It’s like the morning-after, hangover situation and the most joyful outcome, but really, that there are consequences to everything.

这就像宿醉后的早晨和最令人高兴的结果，但实际上，一切都会有后果。

If you’re saying, “Wear your mask when you go out during the coronavirus era.” “Wash your hands.” It’s like the best, the most qualified person to take care of you is you.

如果你说，“在冠状病毒时期外出时戴上口罩。” “洗手。”就好像最好、最有资格照顾你的人就是你自己。

It’s not the doctor.

这不是医生。

It’s not your loved one.

这不是你所爱的人。

Se mèt kò ki veye kò.

Se mèt kò ki veye kò。

It’s the owner of the body who takes care of the body.

身体的主人就是照顾身体的人。

It’s like, “Watch out for yourself.” It’s very good advice these days.

就像“当心你自己”。这些天这是非常好的建议。

It’s that whole thing with freedom.

这就是自由的全部。

Freedom is something that we have to always keep watching out it doesn’t slip away because, sometimes, we think these documents or these rules are set in stone.

自由是我们必须时刻注意的东西，不要让它溜走，因为有时，我们认为这些文件或这些规则是一成不变的。

I think this general who kept saying this was saying, “Well, I have the weapons.” It’s kind of paper, rock scissors.

我认为这位一直说这句话的将军是在说：“好吧，我有武器。”这是一种石头剪刀布。

Which is stronger?

哪个更强？

What this one is saying, actually, the goat is a meager creature compared to a mapou, and there’s no way a goat would actually be able to access the leaves of a mapou, but when it dies, it falls.

实际上，与马普相比，山羊是一种微不足道的生物，山羊实际上不可能接触到马普的叶子，但当它死时，它就会掉落。

I’ve always heard that proverb as a way of encouraging humility, that all our leaves are vulnerable to the goat, if you will.

我一直听说这句谚语是鼓励谦逊的一种方式，如果你愿意的话，我们所有的叶子都容易受到山羊的攻击。

COWEN: One more proverb, “Beyond the mountain is another mountain.”

考恩：还有一句谚语，“山的另一边是另一座山。”

It also speaks to the physical layout of Haiti because it’s a very mountainous place.

它还说明了海地的物理布局，因为它是一个多山的地方。

Ayiti.

阿依提。

The Arawak called it Ayiti.

阿拉瓦克人称其为Ayiti。

It actually means land of the mountains, and it’s physically true.

它实际上意味着山地，而且在物理上也是如此。

If you’re traveling across Haiti, literally, there’s always a mountain physically behind a mountain, but in a spiritual sense, it also means that there’s always more.

如果你在海地旅行，从字面上看，山后面总是有一座山，但从精神意义上来说，这也意味着总是有更多的山。

There’s this mountain-connected saying that I love, which says “de mòn pa janm kontre, men nou menm petèt yon jou nou ka kontre,” which means — and it’s a great closer in a way — it means two mountains can never meet but perhaps, you and I, we can meet again.

我很喜欢这句与山有关的谚语，它说“de mòn pa janm kontre, men nou menm petèt yon jou nou ka kontre”，意思是 —— 在某种程度上，这是一个伟大的接近 —— 这意味着两座山永远无法相遇，但也许，你和我，我们可以再次相遇。

After the Dance, the book that I wrote — it’s about Carnival and Jacmel.

《舞会之后》，我写的书——是关于嘉年华和雅克梅勒的。

It has a spectacular Carnival as well.

这里还有盛大的狂欢节。

There are some wonderful artists who live there, actually, who I write about in After the Dance — one of them, Ronald Mevs, who still lives there next to a beautiful mountain.

事实上，有一些出色的艺术家住在那里，我在《舞后》中写到了他们——其中之一，罗纳德·梅夫斯，他仍然住在一座美丽的山旁边。

I knew that my book was published early, and a lot was made of that, I think, as when you publish when you’re young, but for me, it was just always a joy.

我知道我的书很早就出版了，我想，就像你年轻时出版的那样，这里面有很多内容，但对我来说，这总是一种快乐。

It was just something I love doing, and I always felt really blessed to be able to do it, and I still feel that way to today.

这只是我喜欢做的事情，能够做到这一点我总是感到非常幸运，直到今天我仍然有这种感觉。

But often, when you’re spoken about in the press, people put you as a kind of sociologist, as a kind of expert on Haiti.

但通常，当媒体谈论你时，人们将你视为社会学家、海地问题专家。

When I started pretty young, “I just want to tell this story.

当我很小的时候就开始了，“我只是想讲这个故事。

I want to tell that story.” Then, I started to realize that people were, at times, overgeneralizing my stories.

我想讲这个故事。”然后，我开始意识到人们有时会过度概括我的故事。

They would say, “Oh, this character in your book does that, and that’s what all Haitians do.”

他们会说，“哦，你书中的这个角色就是这样做的，这就是所有海地人所做的。”

Of course, some of my compatriots didn’t like that because people would literally say to me, “Oh, that person read your book and said that.

当然，我的一些同胞不喜欢这样，因为人们实际上会对我说：“哦，那个人读了你的书并这么说。

They think that’s my life, too.” That happens, I think, with the work of writers of color a lot.

他们也认为这就是我的生活。”我认为这种情况在有色人种作家的作品中经常发生。

For example, Alice Walker — people say, “Oh, because she writes this character, then she hates Black men.”

例如，爱丽丝·沃克（Alice Walker）——人们说，“哦，因为她写了这个角色，所以她讨厌黑人。”

For me, they were saying, “Oh, because you wrote about this girl whose family really wanted her to be a virgin, that means everybody who’s Haitian has the same situation.” I think that people in the mainstream culture sometimes generalize what we write.

对我来说，他们说，“哦，因为你写了这个女孩，她的家人真的希望她成为处女，这意味着每个海地人都有同样的情况。”我认为主流文化中的人们有时会概括我们所写的内容。

That leads to some tensions within the culture.

这导致了文化内部的一些紧张局势。

I’ve had some rebuke, which is normal.

我受到过一些责备，这很正常。

Again, there are circumstances to whatever you write, whatever you do.

再说一遍，无论你写什么，无论你做什么，都有环境。

I learned from that.

我从中吸取了教训。

I started out very young, so I think over the years, I’ve also had to learn how to tell maybe more nuanced stories and how to be conscious of just how what I write will be read by different types of people.

我从很小的时候就开始了，所以我想多年来，我还必须学习如何讲述更微妙的故事，以及如何意识到我写的东西将如何被不同类型的人阅读。

There’s a Haitian film, for example, called Anita, which is about a young girl who’s a domestic servant in a home.

例如，有一部海地电影《安妮塔》，讲述了一个年轻女孩在家里当佣人的故事。

Haitian singer TiCorn is featured in it.

海地歌手 TiCorn 是其中的主角。

We would get that film.

我们会得到那部电影。

We would show it, and we’d talk about it.

我们会展示它，我们会讨论它。

Jean, who was more versed in Haitian cinema than either of us, would speak on it, and then the students would film it.

吉恩比我们更精通海地电影，他会谈论它，然后学生们将其拍摄下来。

I hope all of this is in the archives at Ramapo College.

我希望所有这些都在拉马波学院的档案中。

It was both a history of cinema class, but also a class in which the students got an opportunity to film what we were doing.

这既是一堂电影历史课，也是一堂让学生有机会拍摄我们正在做的事情的课。

We were trying to figure what had been done in Haitian cinema before.

我们试图弄清楚海地电影以前做过什么。

Soon after that — not because of us — but there was a kind of explosion of Haitian cinema.

不久之后——“不是因为我们”——而是海地电影出现了爆炸式增长。

There were a lot of films made — some of them wonderful, some not so great — but there were a couple of keepers.

拍了很多电影——“有些很棒，有些不太好”——但有几个守护者。

If we were doing this project now, for example, we would have a lot more to work with, with the films of Raoul Peck and other filmmakers inside Haiti.

例如，如果我们现在做这个项目，我们将有更多的工作要做，包括拉乌尔·佩克和海地境内其他电影制片人的电影。

I think it’s Palmer’s Guide to both Haiti and the Dominican Republic that has some wonderful tips in terms of where to go.

我认为帕尔默的海地和多米尼加共和国指南在去哪里方面提供了一些精彩的建议。

There’re also some local traveling groups.

还有一些当地的旅行团。

If you’ve never been to Haiti, and you don’t know anybody in Haiti, try to find a group to accompany you.

如果您从未去过海地，并且在海地不认识任何人，请尝试找一个团体陪伴您。

But to go with an open mind, to try to learn and listen, and certainly, go outside the urban space into the countryside.

但要以开放的心态去尝试学习和倾听，当然还要走出城市空间进入乡村。

I would recommend.

我会推荐。

Unfortunately, as you know, he passed away not too long ago.

不幸的是，如你所知，他不久前去世了。

That was one of his favorites.

这是他的最爱之一。

That remains very special to me for that reason, but also what the proverb says.

出于这个原因，这对我来说仍然非常特别，而且这也是谚语所说的。

It’s kind of like that — every journey begins with one step.

有点像这样 ——每一段旅程都从一步开始。

I feel like it’s good advice these days.

这些天我觉得这是个好建议。

Piti piti, zwazo fè nich.

皮蒂皮蒂，zwazo fè nich。

Little by little, the bird builds its nest.

小鸟一点一点地筑起了它的巢。

Photo credit: Carl Juste

照片来源：卡尔·贾斯特